The Beatles: The Band that Changed the World, with Conan O’Brien (Part 1)

Summary

The Rest Is History — “The Beatles: The Band that Changed the World” with Conan O’Brien (Part 1)

Podcast: The Rest Is History
Hosts: Tom Holland (Dominic Sandbrook is absent this episode)
Guest: Conan O’Brien
Location: Abbey Road Studios
Date: December 3, 2025
Episode Context: Tom Holland is joined by Conan O’Brien for an in-depth discussion about The Beatles: their rise, their historical and cultural significance, and why their music endures. Regular host Dominic Sandbrook, notably a Beatles skeptic, is absent.

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Episode Overview

In this Beatles-dedicated episode, Tom Holland and Conan O’Brien trace the band’s origins and influence, examining how The Beatles became not just musical icons but seismic historical figures. They discuss the unique circumstances that created the band, key individuals who shaped their journey, the postwar context in Britain and Europe, and The Beatles' pivotal role in the social changes of the 1960s. Conan shares vivid personal anecdotes of meeting members of The Beatles and reflects on the group’s enduring legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why the Beatles Matter — A History Perspective

• Tom and Conan set the stage by framing The Beatles as “lightning rods” for the revolutionary 1960s, shaping modern culture as profoundly as any historical force.
• Conan: “The Beatles are a complete break with what happened before. They are singer-songwriters, they wrote their own music... They're as relevant today as they were in 1964.” [09:02]
• The 1960s are likened to a “second Reformation” with The Beatles as both symbols and vectors of change. [10:34]

2. Formative Influences: Family, War, and American Music

• Beatles’ roots reach back to wartime and prewar England, both culturally and physically (Liverpool’s bombed-out landscape).
• Exposure to American records from Liverpool's seaport played a crucial role.
  • “The port… [meant] records are being brought over in ships. And so… the Beatles can access them.” (Tom) [13:00]
• The accidental “Masonic handshake” of John and Paul bonding over American doo-wop at a church fete, highlighting access to secret “cool” knowledge. [14:00]

3. Hamburg and the Band’s Crucible

• The Beatles' residency in Hamburg is described as their true crucible—playing marathon sets, living in squalid conditions, and networking with avant-garde German artists.
• Conan notes the influence of German bohemians and the anti-Nazi cultural legacy of postwar Hamburg, with Astrid Kirchherr giving them their distinctive haircuts. [17:44]
• “John said this: Hamburg made them... They get honed into a diamond.” (Conan) [18:36]

4. Early Group Dynamics: Members, Image, and Tension

• Formation details: Paul's recruitment of George, Stu Sutcliffe’s role as cool-looking artist bassist, Pete Best's eventual ousting.
• Focus on the importance of image as early as Hamburg, with Conan asserting: “Yes, the music's important but... the image is gonna work.” [15:59]
• The arrival of Ringo, considered transformative by both Tom and Conan. On Ringo: “His feel... he's minimal... the best possible drummer for the Beatles.” (Conan) [31:11]

5. Brian Epstein & George Martin: The Lucky Breaks

• The necessity of incredible luck (and the right middle-class connections) for their breakthrough.
• Brian Epstein is motivated not by commercial calculation but a genuine adoration of the group: “He’s someone who really loves them for them... That doesn't happen [in music].” (Conan) [25:19]
• The critical intervention of George Martin, the comedy show producer turned innovative musical collaborator.

6. Exploding into the Mainstream: Edginess within Boundaries

• The Beatles’ early singles, rise through Liverpool’s scene, and the transformative moment with “Please Please Me”.
• Discussion of the group’s careful balancing act: just edgy enough to excite, but polished enough for mainstream acceptance (e.g., the Royal Variety Show quip).
  • On John’s legendary line: “For our last number… the people in the cheaper seats clap your hands, the rest of you if you just rattle your jewelry.” (Tom) [40:24]
• The significance of their working-class accents and background—“They never try to change it.” (Conan) [41:00]

7. America: Timing, Tragedy, and Triumph

• America in post-Kennedy shock provides fertile ground for “Beatlemania.” The group times their US trip perfectly, landing as stars thanks to “I Want to Hold Your Hand” charting at #1.
• Ed Sullivan’s chance stopover—serendipity or fate?
• Reflections on the massive cultural and racial importance of the Beatles’ refusal to play to segregated audiences, and their vocal support of Black artists.
  • “They talk about Smokey Robinson… the Supremes… black musicians… that’s what they love.” (Conan) [47:12]

8. The “Jesus Controversy” and Social Change

• John’s “we’re more popular than Jesus now” remark, ignored in the UK, becomes an American flashpoint—especially in the Bible Belt.
• Conan likens the delayed backlash to a proto-viral moment: “Before the Internet, but it’s an Internet moment.” [50:15]
• The episode ends with the unresolved question: Will the controversy spell the end for the Beatles?

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Conan O’Brien on meeting George Harrison:
  “I was lucky enough to meet three of the four Beatles... George apologized initially ‘cause he had been drinking... he said, ‘I’m sorry, I’m pissed as a newt.’” [05:36]

• On the Beatles’ historical importance:
  “In all kinds of ways, in the 21st century, we’re living in the aftermath of what happened in the 60s.” (Tom) [10:05]

• On postwar Liverpool:
  “Liverpool is a city that is cratered with kind of bomb damage... the Beatles are born in the war years.” (Tom) [14:49]

• On their synergy and luck:
  “It’s some kind of hobbit tale, where they meet the exact right person at the exact right time.” (Conan, describing Brian Epstein and George Martin's roles) [26:09]

• On making their first #1:
  “Gentlemen, you’ve just made your first number one.” (George Martin, after “Please Please Me”; recounted by Tom) [33:18]

• On their appeal to teenage girls:
  “For the first time teenage girls have spending money and leisure time... riding this wave of growing material prosperity.” (Tom) [36:02]

• On the Beatles’ principles in America:
  “They are not going to bend the knee... there are things they care about... And then almost more important is [when] people ask what groups do they like, they list all these black groups.” (Conan) [46:56]

• On John’s “Jesus” quote and its impact:
  “It actually takes quite a while for it to finally surface and find the right person to hate it.” (Conan, on the drawn-out controversy) [50:15]

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Timeline & Major Segments

• [05:15–07:00] Conan’s stories meeting the Beatles; George Harrison at SNL and Paul McCartney’s outlandish guitar skills.
• [09:00–10:51] Making the historical case for the Beatles’ significance.
• [13:00–15:30] The Beatles’ cultural roots: American music, Liverpool’s war-torn landscape.
• [16:14–18:36] Hamburg’s role in shaping the band: squalor, amphetamines, bohemian influence, and the anti-Nazi cultural connection.
• [22:46–25:19] Brian Epstein’s arrival and the band’s middle-class breakthrough; introduction to George Martin.
• [29:28–31:09] Transition from Pete Best to Ringo and Ringo’s drumming legacy.
• [32:12–35:22] The Beatles’ first singles, evolution to songwriting, and the leap past cover bands.
• [36:02–37:38] Beatlemania, teenage culture, and the explosion of female fandom.
• [41:27–43:30] Breaking into America, the context of JFK’s assassination and cultural readiness.
• [46:56–48:53] Civil rights, Black influence, and the Beatles taking stands on social issues.
• [48:53–51:37] The “Jesus” remark, worldwide reaction, and the looming question of the band’s future.

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Summary Tone & Language

The tone is enthusiastic and conversational, blending Tom Holland’s historical rigor with Conan’s humor, personal anecdotes, and irresistible fandom. Insights are grounded in both cultural analysis and vivid stories, making the discussion accessible, entertaining, and substantial.

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For the Next Episode

The episode ends on a cliffhanger—will the “Jesus” controversy derail the Beatles' career, or do they chart an even bigger cultural revolution? Listeners are invited to continue the story in Part 2, with early access available to club members.

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For fans and newcomers alike, this episode offers a lively, insightful, and personally resonant journey through the formative years of the world’s most influential band.

Transcript

[Tom Holland]

If you want more from the show, join the rest is History Club and with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life. Just head to therestishistory.com and click Gifts. This episode is brought to you by the American Revolution on pbs.

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[Tom Holland]

History of power, Hive helps you finally know yours. Head to hivehome.com to find out more. Subject to survey and suitability. Hive app compatible with selected technology. Paid for surplus. Requires SEG tariff. Hello everyone and welcome to Abbey Road Studios for a rest is history. Beatles Special Now I am afraid that Dominic isn't here because as regular listeners will know, he disgraces himself by not liking John Lennon and also being fed up with talking about the Beatles. And we were recently, the pair of us, on Conan o' Brien's podcast. And Conan asked us were we Beatles or Stones? I of course said Beatles. Dominic said Stones, and then said, I am never going to talk about the Beatles again. So when I got the opportunity to do a Beatles podcast here in Abbey Road, I thought, well, who can I get to replace Dominic? Who can be Denny lane, Tamai, Paul McCartney? And so I thought, well, Conan O' Brien and Conan, here you are in Abbey Road.

[Conan O'Brien]

I just flew 35,000 miles to be called Denny Lane to your Paul McCartney. And I accept it. It's a high honor.

[Tom Holland]

Thank you so much for joining us. When we met in la, you were talking about how you two are a massive Beatles fan, but more than that, you talked about how you've actually met George and Paul and Ringo.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, yeah. I was lucky enough to meet three of the four Beatles. John died when I was in high school, but I was a Beatles fan in the 70s to the exclusion of music that was coming out at the time. I was stubbornly just listening to Beatles records throughout the 70s. But later on, once I had a TV show and became known, I was lucky to meet three of them, which was really special. I met George when I was a writer at Saturday Night Live and he was meeting with Lorne Michaels, who's a producer. They had gone out for drinks and then there's a writer's room at Saturday Night Live. And George came in, I'll never forget. He apologized initially cause he had been drinking some quantity of liquor. So he said, I'm sorry, I'm pissed as a newt. And he was kind of bobbing from shoe to shoe. He asked why we were all staring at him Me being a Beatles geek, I had in my office the same make, model, year, country gentleman that George played in the 64 tour. And I thought about going and getting it and showing it to him, but I thought, no, he's not in a condition to appreciate that, so he'll probably hit me with it. And then George sat down at a piano and started to play, which was lovely.

[Tom Holland]

And what was he playing?

[Conan O'Brien]

He was just playing around chords. He wasn't playing a song.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. So not My Guitar Gently Weeps, right?

[Conan O'Brien]

No, it wasn't what you think. And Hollywood would make it a full rendition of While My Guitar Gently Weeps. It was not still.

[Tom Holland]

You were listening to a Beatle play the piano.

[Conan O'Brien]

I was listening to a Beatle play the piano. And I've also been lucky enough to be in a room where Paul was playing guitar. And it was just a guitar that was in the room. So he's left handed. He was just playing it upside down and backwards. And I said, how do you do that? Where did you learn to do that? And he said to me, back in the day when we were starting out, I had to because the only other way to play it would be to retune John's guitar and he would have crippled me.

[Tom Holland]

I can't believe that you've had these experiences. Yeah. Cause the closest that I have come to meeting a Beatle was via my wife Sadie, who when she was 3, was in a queue with her parents for a visa to America and Paul was standing behind her and picked her up.

[Conan O'Brien]

I was in that queue as well. So I got you beat at every turn.

[Tom Holland]

So you're huge Beatles fan. Yeah, as am I. But there are of course skeptics out there, Dominic being one of them.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Tom Holland]

So I guess the question. We're a history podcaster rather than a music podcast, so we need to make the case that the Beatles are historically significant. Yes. Is that a case you think that can be made?

[Conan O'Brien]

Easily. The Beatles are a complete break with what happened before. They are singer, songwriters, they wrote their own music. There were so many ways that they depart so many groups at the time. You know, there's the lead and then there's the rest of the group. It's, you know, Dion and the Belmonts. There was a lot of pressure for them to have a leader. I think briefly they were Johnny and the Moondogs. Very briefly. But they always knew. No, it's.

[Tom Holland]

We're a group, just kind of synergy of it.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. And that was unusual at the time. So they're a break with pretty much everything that comes before them. And they're as relevant today as they were in 1964.

[Tom Holland]

Because obviously there have been acts that have been massive in their own time. And then slightly have started to fade. But I guess you could say that the Beatles have endured long enough and remain massive enough that you can say that people will probably be listening to them in decades times, maybe in centuries time. Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

There's a great clip, I think it's in the Anthology, where they're talking to a young guy, basically a teenager, a kid at Shea Stadium. And they're trying to kind of. The interviewer's trying to run them down a little bit. And this kid says, I love them. Yeah. And he just says, they're incredible musicians. And he more or less makes the case there in 1965 or 6, that we're gonna be listening to their music forever.

[Tom Holland]

They are, I think, the bestselling musical act of all time. I mean, every statistic that they generate is off the scale. I guess the case I would make and why I think they're historically significant is because in a way, they are lightning rods for so much that makes the 60s a revolutionary decade. And I think that in all kinds of ways, in the 21st century, we're living in the aftermath of what happened in the 60s.

[Conan O'Brien]

Right.

[Tom Holland]

Rather like people in the 16th century, we're living in the aftermath of what had happened in the 1520s. I think the transformation, the cultural, the ethical transformation is on that scale. And the Beatles are both kind of symbols of it, but they're also vectors of it.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. I mean, the Beatles themselves knew that they weren't creating all this change. Sometimes they were just the avatar that could represent the change. And I think they were pretty sane. I mean, another group with that kind of fame would have said, we did all this. We changed humankind forever. They knew that. Of course, that wasn't the case, but they were the perfect representation of what was happening. And they did drive and give credence to a lot of amazing changes that were happening.

[Tom Holland]

And I think also, I mean, just to begin, they do have their roots in kind of quite the decades before they were born, which would include the war years, but going back into the 30s and even back into the 20s. So John was a big fan of just William. I don't know if that thing in America, probably not. But it's kind of stories of this kind of raggedy schoolboy, and he has a gang of outlaws. And John was obsessed by it. And Paul's dad, you know, he kind of played all kinds of old traditional English music. And the influence of that on the Beatles tracks is kind of really evident. And also I think it's interesting that they meet. John and Paul meet at a church fete. Neither of them were in any way religious. But it's a reminder that the world of England in the 50s is still one where, you know, you want to be a skiffle band, you still have to go and do it at a church. Fate. Because there isn't really anywhere else to have that kind of fun.

[Conan O'Brien]

That's the only gig.

[Tom Holland]

That's the only gig in town, really. Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

So no, they come from. A friend of mine said once, Jimmy Vivino, my bandleader said the Beatles single handedly brought us from black and white to color. Which I thought was an interesting way to look at it. Which is they come from this very old tradition and they're well schooled in English music hall, big band. They're.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, swing and all that.

[Conan O'Brien]

They have big ears. They're listening and hearing everything and soaking it all up. And later on it all comes out in the music.

[Tom Holland]

But obviously one of the things that they are listening to and are able to listen to perhaps in a way that lots of people elsewhere in England is the sounds of America. Because Liverpool is a port that is open to the Atlantic and ships, there's still transport, records are being brought over in ships. And so they come to the port and the Beatles can access them.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, they can get Elvis, Gene Vincent.

[Tom Holland]

Buddy Holly and black music.

[Al Murray]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

Which is all, you know, they love all that.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Tom Holland]

So when John and Paul meets at this church. Fate.

[Conan O'Brien]

The Walton fte.

[Tom Holland]

The Walton Fate. John is singing a Dewop song, Come Go With Me. And he doesn't know the lyrics and Paul doesn't know the lyrics either. But he knows the lyrics well enough to know that John can't remember them. But the fact that they both know the song is like a kind of Masonic handshake between them. It's a sign that they have access to a kind of secret information. They are familiar with American music. And so the kind of. The potential, the excitement, the drama of what is happening in America, you know, you said that the Beatles introduced color, but I think for The Future Beatles 1950s England is a monochrome country.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Tom Holland]

And America is vibrant, Technicolor.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well also the war has been a very different experience. I don't need to tell you, for people living in England they've been bombed, they've seen their cities destroyed. They've paid a terrible price. They're still rationing, they're still war rationing. So they're growing up in a world where people are coming out of a daze and there's been a lot of privation, there's been a lot of difficulty.

[Tom Holland]

I also got into the beatles in the 70s and when I look back at the 60s, the 60s seemed an impossible distance from the Second World War. But now you think, I mean, it's only 20 years. 20 years. I mean, it's so close. And when the Beatles are growing up, they are in a city that is cratered with kind of bomb damage. And as you say, you know, the Beatles are born in the war years. John is born during the Blitz, during a blitz on Liverpool. So George joins John and Paul and they get joined by Stu Sant.

[Conan O'Brien]

Paul's the one who knows George.

[Tom Holland]

George doesn't.

[Conan O'Brien]

He introduces him and he plays Raunchy on the top of a double decker bus. Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And that's enough.

[Conan O'Brien]

That's enough.

[Tom Holland]

You're in.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And then John's art school friend Stu Sutcliffe wins a prize for his art and spends it on a guitar.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, John bullies him into. I don't know what he. It was £80 or £100 or something. He bullies him into buying a bass, which Stu never really learns to play, but he's a cool looking guy.

[Tom Holland]

He is.

[Conan O'Brien]

And I think that's an early sign that, yes, the music's important, but the.

[Tom Holland]

Image is gonna work.

[Conan O'Brien]

Who we are, what we represent. And Stu is an artist and Paul doesn't love this. He really doesn't like Stu coming in because he can't play. And I think he's very close to John, which may have been a problem for Paul.

[Tom Holland]

Yes. And also there's Pete Best, a top hairdresser in later life, but at the time the drummer. And so they all go off to Hamburg and Hamburg equally. I mean, maybe even more than. Liverpool is obviously a city marked by the experience of the Second World War. The British had flattened it and of course there were people there who had lived through the Nazi period. And it's always struck me that one of the things that is interesting about Hamburg in the Nazi period is that it's kind of notorious among the Nazi leadership for the enthusiasm of the young people who live there for American and English jazz and swing. And it's a kind of rebellion against the ideals of the Hitler Youth and all of that. And they grow their hair and they listen to jazz and they're particularly into black music. And this is a kind, you know, obviously I Mean, it's the anathema to everything that Nazism represents. Yeah. And when the Beatles meet Astrid Kircher and Klaus Forman, who are kind of middle class intellectual Germans who are ashamed of the Nazi legacy and therefore are heirs to that tradition of seeing British and American music as something that is expressive of freedom and of opposition to Nazism, that's kind of one of the reasons why they all end up getting on so well.

[Conan O'Brien]

Well, they're also. They're bohemians. They're artists and outsiders looking in. And I think that's very attractive to John and Paul especially, and George. They really like these people. They become good friends and they're very much influenced by them.

[Tom Holland]

John calls them exies, doesn't he? After existentialists. And kind of France is the great influence. And in due course it's Astrakircha who will give the Beatles their kind of signature mop top cuts, which is influenced by these kind of European bohemian ideals. But just to reiterate, I mean, this is ultimately a kind of reaction against what the Nazis had represented and that kind of tradition. So there is a case for saying that the mop top is a kind of anti Nazi haircut. Do you think that's maybe going too far?

[Conan O'Brien]

I think you've pushed it way too far, possibly. Now I'm listening to all the early Beatles hits as anti Hitler anthems. I do agree with you that there is clearly. And John said this. Hamburg made them. Going to Hamburg made them because, as Malcolm Gladwell pointed out, they had to do their 100,000 hours.

[Tom Holland]

It always changes.

[Conan O'Brien]

I needed a billion hours myself, but it changes them. The volume of work they have to do is incredible. They also need to entertain those crowds and they get very, very good at that. They get very good at winning. Getting people from peeking in the door to coming in, to buying drinks. They do it all with muck Shao. Yeah, Muck Shau. They do it with the strength of their personalities and with their music. And they get honed into a diamond.

[Tom Holland]

And they're absolutely off their faces on amphetamines, aren't they?

[Conan O'Brien]

Prellies. Yeah, yeah. They're on these pills that enable them to play and play and play and play.

[Tom Holland]

The best things in life are free but you can keeping for the best and business give me money.

[Conan O'Brien]

That'S what I want.

[Tom Holland]

That'S what I want.

[Conan O'Brien]

They're living in. I think they share a wall with a theater, so they're living in conditions that aren't safe.

[Tom Holland]

Isn't that where George loses his virginity and all the Beatles are kind of on bunks watching him or whatever. I mean, it's all very quite squalid, but kind of quite. But properly rock and roll at a time when in America and England still more so. The music is kind of stopping being quite so rock and roll.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. I mean, there's this period, you know, I think Chuck Berry violates the Mann act and has to be. I think he goes to jail or is. It's a scandal. Jerry Lee Lewis has his scandal. Yeah, he definitely has a scandal. Buddy Holly dies and then you.

[Tom Holland]

The Big Bopper.

[Conan O'Brien]

The Big Bopper and Richie Valens.

[Tom Holland]

And Elvis gets drafted.

[Conan O'Brien]

Of course, Elvis gets drafted, which the.

[Tom Holland]

Beatles very narrowly avoid. Because national service, which is a thing here in England in the 50s. It gets stopped just before they. You know, they would have become eligible for it.

[Conan O'Brien]

And we would all agree that the Beatles would not have done well in national service.

[Tom Holland]

It would not have been good. Well, because they. It's kind of interesting that when they're driving out to Hamburg for the first time, they go past Arnhem, which is a bridge too far, kind of disastrous. British lose lots of people there. And the story is that John refuses to get out of the van and go and look at the graves. And already perhaps a sense there that war in its totality is something to be rejected. And that, of course, will become a massive theme for Jon's music and ideals later in life. But, I mean, it might be there right from the beginning. Although, apparently when he's on the stage in Hamburg, he's always shouting out in English, you know, krauts, we beat you in the war kind of stuff. So, as always with the Beatles, it's never. There's always a kind of creative tension.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. Jon, even then, is walking that line between he's goading thugs in a Hamburg crowd to attack him. And then relying on security to handle it. Or a bouncer or someone walking that line between I dare you to hit me.

[Tom Holland]

And I think quite a few of the bouncers only kind of had one arm or one leg or whatever. Cause they were kind of maimed in the war. So, yeah, quite. I mean, quite a crucible, I guess. And explains a lot about the kind of band that the Beatles in due course became. You know, come back from Hamburg, they go back to Hamburg, then they come back to Liverpool again. And by this point, say 1961, 1962, they're starting to establish themselves as the biggest name in Liverpool.

[Conan O'Brien]

When they come back to Liverpool, there are people who think that they're a German band because they hear that they've come from Hamburg, so. And they're so polished I mean they're a completely different act I think on the scene in Liverpool there were bands that didn't take them seriously Then they come back from Hamburg and they've had this education and they've been transmuted they've.

[Tom Holland]

Got their leather and they're down in the Cavern and the ceiling is dripping sweat from excited girls who were there in their lunch hour and it's very fetid and exciting and rock and roll. And it is on 9th November 1961 that a key figure in the story of the Beatles finds his way down the steps into the Cavern. And that of course, is Brian Epstein.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, you know, when the Colonel finds Elvis, the Colonel is very well established as a guy who could take over Elvis's contract It should be pointed out that Brian Epstein is not that figure. He's working at, I believe, his family's record store, record shop. He's never managed anybody and he sees this group that really just fascinates him and introduces John, particularly John.

[Tom Holland]

Brian is gay and he definitely, I think, has a thing for John, doesn't he? Yeah, but he kind of immediately picks up on the fact that this band is amazing and decides that he is gonna try and get them a record contract. And although he's never managed anyone, he does kind of have links with the music industry and he's middle class, as opposed to the Beatles, who are working class. And in England in the early 60s that is massively important and it means that he can make contact with other middle class people, among whom is a producer here in Abbey Road called George Martin. And so famously, Brian Epstein hawks the Beatles around all kinds of record companies and they turn him down. Decca, famously, guitar groups are on their way out But George Martin basically has the last port of calls parlophone at emi and he says, yeah, okay, I'll give them a go. But it's. George Martin is still not entirely convinced, is he?

[Conan O'Brien]

No, he's not. One point I would make, I think should be made is that in addition to all of their amazing qualities, the Beatles have insane luck. They have incredible luck because many people might have approached them and said, I think I could represent you. Brian Epstein is unusual. He's someone who really loves them for them. He's someone who really respects them as artists and he wants to take care of them. Now remember, this is the music business. That doesn't happen. Then who does he take them to? Who do they hook up with George Martin. The people they meet early on are the essential people, and it's some kind of hobbit tale where they meet the exact right person at the exact right time.

[Tom Holland]

It's all hotting up and I don't think I can take the tension right now. I need a bit of a breather, so let's have a quick break.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

[Tom Holland]

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[Tom Holland]

This episode is brought to you by Spotify Portal for Backstage. But you're wondering what's Portal? Well, it's an internal developer portal built to improve developer experience and boost productivity. All software components are centralized. Documentation is automated and easy to maintain. New products and components just a few clicks. With your best practices already built in, think less friction, more innovation. Ready to double your productivity? Try Spotify portal at backstage.Spotify.com. Hello, welcome back to the Rest Is History. I am with Conan o' Brien and we are talking Beatles. So George Martin hadn't really been a music producer. He'd been a producer of a comedy show.

[Conan O'Brien]

The Goon Show.

[Tom Holland]

The Goon show and the Beatles really appreciate that. But it also means that George Martin can appreciate their zany mop top humour. So George Harrison famously saying he didn't like George Martin's tie and George Martin not being unduly offended by that. And so he decides actually the Beatles have got something, that they've got personality as well as musical ability. But there is one member of the Beatles he doesn't rate. And Stu Sutcliffe by this point has died of a brain hemorrhage. But Pete Best is still on the scene and George Martin says to Ryan he's got to go.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And so the final piece in the jigsaw puzzle now slots into place, namely Ringo.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

Who you've also met and you said that you gave him a hug once and his body is now made of teak.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes, I've met Ringo a number of times and one time I gave him a hug and I thought he's carved out of a very dense tropical wood. This man works out, I think, obsessively. He just hit his 85th birthday and I think he could take both of us in a fight.

[Tom Holland]

He's in incredible shape, which is amazing because Ringo was born in absolutely the poorest part, the most bomb damaged part of Liverpool and grew up repeatedly being ill. He was always in hospital, kind of missed out on school and all kinds of things. But by the time the Beatles approach him, has established himself as the best drummer in Liverpool. And again, it's the kind of. It's the humor and the personality. Ringo completely gels with them and George Martin has actually brought a session drummer in to record their first single and his name is Andy White.

[Conan O'Brien]

Andy White, yes. What's interesting is that people have always wondered or theorized that Pete Best is too good looking and maybe Paul is jealous and they edge him out, but it's been pretty much conclusively proved that he wasn't good. Yeah, he was not a good timekeeper. He couldn't really keep time and Ringo could play all these different beats, these Latin beats that later on show up in so many Beatles records. So he was the right guy at the right time.

[Tom Holland]

And so how would you rate Ringo as a drummer?

[Conan O'Brien]

Oh, I think he's spectacular. And a lot of top drummers now give it up to Ringo. His feel, he's minimal and there's a great thing you can see on YouTube which is if Keith Moon had been the Beatles drummer, if John Bonham had been the Beatles drummer and you listen to them and you're like, yeah, that wouldn't be the same, it wouldn't work. So is he Gene Krupa or Buddy Rich? No, he's not. He's the best possible Drummer for the Beatles.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. And actually, so there's. The footage that you can see in the background is from a new version of the anthology documentary series out on Disney. And in these episodes there's amazing footage of Ringo drumming. You can completely see what he is giving the Beatles. So, as I say, the final piece in the jigsaw puzzle is there.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And so their first single, Love Me do, comes out in Britain, which is 17. Brian's shop has bought in boxloads of it, crates of the stuff, flogged it across Liverpool. But it's still not obvious that they are going to completely change everything. Yeah. And it's when they then turn up to record their first album, Please Please me Last night I said these words. I know you never even tried.

[Conan O'Brien]

Come.

[Tom Holland]

On, come on, come on, come on, Come on, Come on, Come on, come on, come on Please, please, please oh, yeah Like I please you George Martin famously says, gentlemen, you just made your first number one. The sense that this is something special. And one of the key things is that they're. They're not just recording covers. So we should probably just talk about that because you. You said earlier this is something that marks them out as distinctive. Yeah, but it is really unusual, isn't it?

[Conan O'Brien]

It's revolutionary. It's unheard of. So what? John and Paul were always interested in almost the Brill Building tradition of being songwriters. And Paul used to think about being a songwriter, even if it meant he wasn't the one performing the song. They just thought about songwriting. They were working on it for a long time. They're writing things, but not of the quality that they'd later have. But then this moment comes when they've done Love Me Do.

[Tom Holland]

It's so, so.

[Conan O'Brien]

It's so, so. You listen to it now and you think, I don't know what all the excitement was. And the truth is it was number 17. Brian probably helped them boost them up the charts by buying records himself. So they really need to make it. John has a song that's in the vein of. He's thinking of a Roy Orbison song and it's written. It's a very slow kind of Roy Orbison ballad.

[Tom Holland]

Come on, come on, come on, come on Please, please, please Whoa, yeah I gotta please you.

[Conan O'Brien]

And there were. It's not coming together. And then they decide, let's pick up the tempo. And they have it. And that's their first number one, the Stones. Dominic's not here, but I wish I could say this to his face. The Stones are doing covers down in London. They hear that there's this group up in Liverpool that's making records which the Stones are not doing, and they're writing them themselves and they're flabbergasted and I think skeptical.

[Tom Holland]

And it inspired. In the long run.

[Conan O'Brien]

In the long run.

[Tom Holland]

In the long run.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. It took them a while, Dominic.

[Tom Holland]

It took them a while, but they don't do badly either.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, they do just fine.

[Tom Holland]

But the quickening up, the pace, the harmonies, the shaking of the hair, the twisting and the shouting when the album goes out and then she loves you and a succession of singles and the live performances and girls start screaming and they start kind of pushing at cordons of policemen. And the Beatles have mentioned they like jelly beans, and so they start hurling jelly beans.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. George had said in an interview, I like these, whatever they're called, jelly beans. And from then on he's pelted with.

[Tom Holland]

Them and so quite dangerous because they, you know, could take out an eye or two.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, he should have mentioned. George should have mentioned a softer, maybe a marshmallow Jelly babies, perhaps.

[Tom Holland]

But this is a kind of explosion of public teenage female joy of a kind that no one has ever seen before. And I guess it's explained in part by the charisma and the music of the Beatles, but it's also explained by, you know, to put it in Marxist terms, the fact that for the first time teenage girls have spending money and leisure time. And so you see there again, you talked about how lucky the Beatles are that they are riding this crest of this wave of growing material prosperity that is kind of giving birth to the idea of the teenager as a consumer. Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

So another way in which they get incredibly lucky. The timing is spectacular because, as you say, if this had been 10 years earlier, I don't think this maybe could have happened. But they're at the right time, perfect time, where a whole group of teenagers can express a different opinion than their parents, which teenagers want to do. They want to make something theirs. And here are these four perfect people with great music and they can elect to spend their money on these records and they can have their favorite Beatle and it starts to fuel this.

[Tom Holland]

And do you think the fact that all the bands and the singers that we've talked about up till now who influenced the Beatles have been male, but actually the Beatles are really, really into female groups as well?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes.

[Tom Holland]

Do you think that's kind of contributory factor to their popularity with specifically female audience?

[Conan O'Brien]

In his book, Ian Leslie wrote this fantastic book that I absolutely love. I think it's the best Beatles book that's been written in quite a while.

[Tom Holland]

So John and Paul, isn't it John and Paul.

[Conan O'Brien]

And in it he points out something I hadn't really thought of, which is a lot of early Beatles music is influenced by doo wop groups. If someone just told me that without me thinking about it, I'd say, well, that's stupid. But no, it's not. It's true. They are performing a lot of stuff by male doo wop groups and also female groups. And I think they are just going for what's the best music. And they are also very interested in getting the vocals right. So they play their own instruments, but I think their secret weapon is their vocal ability.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, the harmonies.

[Conan O'Brien]

The harmonies and Everly Brothers, I think were a huge influence on them. But yes, they will play. I mean, Ringo sings boys and doesn't.

[Tom Holland]

They don't.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

So the Cherrelles number. They don't change it.

[Conan O'Brien]

They don't change. It would be so easy to say girls. It would be so easy to change it. And they don't.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

And it's a little strange, but it's fantastic. And so, yes, there is. They're not overly concerned with gender. They're not overly concerned with, you know. No, no, we've got to stick to this image or that image. They're just going where the best music is Now.

[Tom Holland]

I know what Dominic would say about the secret of their popularity is also the fact that they are just edgy enough.

[Conan O'Brien]

You know, it's.

[Tom Holland]

So they say she loves you. Yeah, yeah, yeah Rather than, as Paul's father thought they should have sung she loves you. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah but they're not going too far. So the kind of the prelly popping and the, you know, all the kind of Hamburg stuff has been kind of slightly pushed to one side. And Brian has put them in suits by this point. And in the long run, it's the Stones who will play the part of the kind of the bad boys of rock and roll. The Beatles are just edgy enough but no more so. Right. And they, you know, they famously. They play at the Royal Variety show and John has his witty quip for our last number, I'd like to ask your help. The people in the cheaper seats clap your hands and the rest of you, if you just rattle your jewelry.

[Conan O'Brien]

Which Noel Coward was hated that. I don't know why I remember that. But Noel Coward thought that was atrocious. Did he? And this brings up. That performance brings up something really interesting, which is the Beatles represent this New thing which is class is irrelevant. And they are playing in front of the Queen in a royal performance. And John makes this joke that is very much about class. And Noel Coward, I think, got upset. People thought, well, this is. How could he? I mean, some people were really taken aback by that. But they are four working class guys who don't change their accents. They don't adopt James Mason accents when they make it big. They have thick Liverpudlian accents. And they never try to change it. They don't work on their addiction or anything. Yes, they wear the suits because they are ambitious. They're extremely ambitious. And they will do what it takes to get to the top.

[Tom Holland]

So, I mean, it's great to be number one in Britain, to be going around all these kind of market towns and selling out concerts and headlining and having repeated number ones and all kinds of things. But they have been massively influenced by American music. And for people in Britain to break it in America is the ultimate dream. And British artists have not succeeded in making it in America at all. And Brian is kind of trying to boost their career in America, but it's not really working. And America is distracted apart from anything else by, you know, America has its trauma. Because when the Beatles second album with the Beatles comes out in Britain, it's the same day that Kennedy is shot in Dallas. And it is often said that that plunges America into a state of kind of mourning and bereavement that leaves them kind of wanting almost to be cheered up. Do you think there's anything in that?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah, again, I mean, it's heresy to use the word luck with an assassination and a day that. That's awful. But I will say, you know, I do these history experiments in my head sometimes. What if the Beatles had been booked November 30 on the ED Sullivan Show? What if they had been booked in December? It's too soon.

[Tom Holland]

So they end up going to the US in February. In February. By which point I want to hold your hand is number one. And when I touch I feel happy inside it's such a feeling that my love I can have I can have, I can hide. And it's crucial that they go there with that single already number one. So that they're not going as, you know, supplicants, they're going as stars.

[Conan O'Brien]

This is one of those moments where Paul has subsequently said, we knew to wait until we had number one hits in the US to go over. And if you look into it, I don't think it holds up. I think that Ed Sullivan had been flying in Europe. His plane has a stopover, I think, in. I don't know if he's in Sweden or he's someplace. And he sees screaming fans. And he says, what's that all about? And he says, it's this group from England, the Beatles.

[Tom Holland]

These youngsters from Liverpool call themselves the Beatles.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. And so the booking is made before the Beatles have hit number one in America. Again, the timing is perfect.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

But again, it's not just luck. But luck plays a big part in it.

[Tom Holland]

So they land in jfk, and there's huge press attention. And there are crowds of screaming girls.

[Conan O'Brien]

Which surprises them.

[Tom Holland]

It does. And it obviously surprises the US Media as well. There's kind of incredible footage in the anthology documentary. Of them arriving outside the hotel with girls just hurling themselves at the window. And it's like they're in a zombie film. And it's like the kind of zombie plague has crossed the Atlantic from Britain. And now it's arrived in New York. And the screaming and the hysteria becomes part of the story, doesn't it?

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And it is present when the Beatles appear on the Ed Sullivan Show.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And that show, I think, is still the second most viewed program in U.S. history.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah. I think some reality show has the number one spot, I believe. Someone eating cockroaches. About two years ago, Paul McCartney released pictures that he took. Because all of them had cameras. They'd been given cameras. So Paul called it the Eyes of the Storm. Cause it's all of them. But he took pictures constantly. And I had a chance to interview him about it. And he was talking about being in the center of all that. And how surprised they were.

[Tom Holland]

I saw the storm.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

And he was just taking all these photos of. A lot of them are just people losing their minds and staring at them. And I think it was George who later said. We just became an excuse for people to lose their minds. People wanted to lose their minds. They needed some kind of fuse or trigger. And this group shows up. And yes, the music's great. And yes, they have these incredible personalities. But it's something completely new. And everyone says it is time to go insane.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. And so that's something that the Beatles are introducing to America. But obviously for the Beatles as well, going to America is a kind of pilgrimage. Because this is where the music that they have most loved and have been most inspired comes from. And, you know, we've said they're particularly influenced by black American music. And so one of the issues that comes up in 1964. When they're going on tour around the US is the question of will they play in segregated stadiums? Cause that is still very much a thing. Civil rights movement is still ongoing. And the Beatles are absolutely forthright about this and they will not play. And they managed to force an old stadium here or there to change the ticketing other ones. They just say, well, we're not going to play there. So what kind of impact do you think that has?

[Conan O'Brien]

I think it's massive. I mean, first of all, it shows that they are not going to bend the knee. They are principled. There are things that they think are important they care about. There's the fact that they will not play in front of segregated audience. And then almost, maybe more important in their press conferences where people hang on every word. When asked what groups do they like? They list all these black groups and they talk about Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, and they talk about the Supremes. And they mention so many black musicians and acts. And it's not calculated. That's just what they love.

[Tom Holland]

That's what they love.

[Conan O'Brien]

That's what they love. But it certainly, I think, is a beautiful moment.

[Tom Holland]

When they're in New York in the first days of their arrival, they get given the chance to kind of DJ on various radio stations, don't they? And they're just endlessly playing black female groups because that's what they love. That's their kind of great influence. And so that sense of the fact that they're not just musicians, but that what they say might matter. I mean, that lasts through 1964 and it lasts through 1965. And there is an assumption that the Beatles will always give interesting copy, but there may be the potential for them to say something that might ultimately turn out to be inflammatory.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yes, there's a constant expectation from the minute the Beatles arrive on the scene. And it's going so well. And it keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Success, success, success. Smash hit, smash hit, smash hit. When is the bubble gonna burst? And so the pump is primed for something to go wrong.

[Tom Holland]

So in March 1966, there's a journalist called Maureen Cleave, who has known the Beatles very well, known them for about three years as kind of friends with them. And she interviews each one of the Beatles and it runs in the press as an astro. What it's like to, you know, to be a Beatle.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And one of the interviews is with John, and he has been reading quite a lot about religion. And he gives Maureen some. Some good copy. So he says Christianity will Go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I'm right and I'll be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now. And so this runs in the British press and nobody in Britain could care less about it.

[Conan O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Tom Holland]

And these articles then get, they get sold on to publication in America and they appear and still nobody really pays any attention to it. But then there are people in the Bible Belt in America who are not keen on the Beatles, sees the Beatles long hair as satanic. Some of them aren't keen on the whole anti segregation stage. And when some of these people read what John has said, they're lesson enthused, aren't they?

[Conan O'Brien]

They're less than enthused. It's funny because it's a. We're in 1966, but it's kind of a before the Internet. It's an Internet moment because today John would have said that on Wednesday at 3 o' clock in the afternoon and there'd be outrage on Thursday. This is an interview he does with Maureen Cleave. It takes a while. It actually takes quite a while for it to finally surface and find the right person to hate it.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Yeah.

[Conan O'Brien]

And then it becomes this explosion, this huge controversy and the article comes out in England and then makes its way across to the States. It takes some time, but then it starts to pick up traction.

[Tom Holland]

And the Beatles are coming back to America for a tour. Yeah. And by the time they are ready to leave Britain to fly to New York, all hell is breaking loose. And the huge question for listeners is, will this finish the Beatles off? Is this the end of the Beatles? And there's literally only one way to find out and that is to watch our second episode where we will kind of be moving from the Red Album to the Blue Album.

[Conan O'Brien]

Okay. Well, you just gave it away because.

[Tom Holland]

Kind of I did, but I know, I kind of think people probably know that.

[Conan O'Brien]

No, this is a bit of a spoiler, but it did end. The Beatles and their career ended in 66 and they all went into real estate.

[Tom Holland]

So find out how the Beatles got on as real estate developers in New York. Or alternatively, we'll stick to the timeline of what actually happened.

[Conan O'Brien]

And Tom, I'm just curious, is there any way that fervent listeners like myself can have access to to this episode without waiting?

[Tom Holland]

Well, Conan, yes, it will blow you away, but there is.

[Conan O'Brien]

What do you mean?

[Tom Holland]

You can go to therestishistory.com and you can sign up there and you can get immediate access to it and a host a host of other benefits. It is unbelievable value.

[Conan O'Brien]

This is incredible.

[Tom Holland]

It's so exciting and I'm so glad to share it with you and to share it with you, the listener. We will be back. Thanks so much for watching us or listening, depending whether you're watching or listening to us. Bye Bye.

[Conan O'Brien]

Goodbye.

[Tom Holland]

And Doug, here we have the Limu.

[Al Murray]

Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

[Conan O'Brien]

Fascinating.

[Tom Holland]

It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Conan O'Brien]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Cut the camera.

[Al Murray]

They see us.

[Conan O'Brien]

Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com.

[Tom Holland]

Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Ferry underwritten.

[Conan O'Brien]

By Liberty Mutual Insurance Company Affiliates excludes Massachusetts.

[Tom Holland]

Throughout time, celebration has meant giving. So the Romans at Saturnalia handed out all kinds of gifts. The three Magi handed out gold, frankincense and myrrh. And the Victorians absolutely loved wrapping things up in paper and then tying it up in string.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Tom those are lovely gestures, but I wonder if they're a little bit too extravagant for the typical Christmas morning. So this year, here's my suggestion to our listeners and our viewers. Why not give something a little bit more enlightened? Why not give the gift of the Rest is History Club Membership? It's the discerning choice for anybody who prefers a Hannibal to a hamper.

[Tom Holland]

It's ad free listening. You get a weekly bonus episode, you get early access to live shows, and you get exclusive Deep Dive series.

[Dominic Sandbrook]

Also on top of that, this year's special gift edition of Rest is History Club Membership comes with a sensational exclusive T shirt. It will make you the envy of all your neighbors and all the cool people in your neighborhood, if such people exist, will admire you and want to spend more time with you. So just head to therestishory.com and click on gifts, that is therestishistory.com and please click on Gifts.

[Conan O'Brien]

Foreign.

[Al Murray]

And Al Murray, hosts of WWII Pod we have ways of making you talk.

[Tom Holland]

Yes. So Al and I have been on the wrestler's history a few times now, haven't we, Al?

[Al Murray]

We've been talking all things World War II with Tom and Dominic.

[Tom Holland]

And if you've been enjoying their recent series on the invasion of Norway, the fall of France and the battle of Britain, then we have good news for you.

[Al Murray]

That's right, Jim. We have our own show all about the fascinating history of the Second World War. We've been going for longer than the Second World War itself, haven't we, James?

[Tom Holland]

And longer than the Rest is History.

[Al Murray]

Twice a week ww2 pod we have ways to make you talk. Discusses the fascinating people, the incredible innovations and the terrible tragedies of this I think the most important period of history of all time. Absolutely.

[Tom Holland]

The Battle of Hastings. I've got nothing on this.

[Al Murray]

It's 1940 where it's all at this.

[Tom Holland]

Past year alone now we've done series how haven't we on Dunkirk, the Battle of Britain, Hitler's last days in Berlin, the dropping of the atomic bombs and we've also explored the women of soe, Auschwitz and the nerve wracking siege of Malta.

[Al Murray]

And in amidst all this we take our listeners family stories and give them an airing so that people can tell the story of what happened to their Uncle Albert where maybe they were involved with the siege of Malta. And we're doing loads of naval chat at the moment on the main show such as the fight against the U boat wolf packs in the Atlantic War. More so now is a really fantastic time to subscribe and get yourself a bit more nautical. So search. We have ways wherever you get your podcasts and we look forward to you joining us. Prepare to board. We have ways of making you talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland.

[Conan O'Brien]

Thank you.