The Rest Is History – The Trojan War, with Mary Beard
Episode Date: October 9, 2025
Hosts: Tom Holland & Dominic Sandbrook
Special Guest: Mary Beard
Location: Leighton House, Kensington, London

Episode Overview

In this episode, Tom Holland sits down with world-renowned classicist Mary Beard to launch a four-part series on the most iconic themes in ancient history. The focus of this installment is the Trojan War—the legendary conflict at the intersection of myth and history. The discussion delves into the mythic origins, enduring cultural impact, and the blurred lines between history and legend. Listeners are treated to Mary’s incisive storytelling, skeptical wit, and the duo’s engaging banter on whether the Trojan War "really happened" and why it matters.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Series and Setting the Scene

[00:00 – 03:15]

• Tom welcomes listeners from the sumptuous Leighton House and introduces Mary Beard, highlighting her influence and the collaborative spirit behind the series.
  • Notable quote: "And that guest is the most famous classicist in the world... and a woman to whom I owe personally an enormous amount because she was the person who first read Rubicon, my first book on classical history, in manuscript." — Tom Holland [00:50]
• The series will explore four major ancient themes: the Trojan War, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and gladiators (with a Spartacus twist).
• The themes reflect the tension between myth and historical fact and tend to be dominated by male-driven narratives of violence.

2. Why the Trojan War? Myth, Masculinity, and Meaning

[03:10 – 04:45]

• Mary explains the lasting fascination: The Trojan War lies at the foundation of Greek and Roman identity as well as their cultural debates about war, morality, and heroism.
  • Memorable moment/quote: “They kind of occupy that funny fuzzy boundary between what’s myth and what’s history. And that is one of the things I think is most interesting to explore in ancient history. How do we know what’s true or not? And does it matter if it’s true?” — Mary Beard [03:23]
• Tom and Mary note that their perspectives differ, with Mary known for her scholarly skepticism.
• The ambiguity and “unknowability” of history is part of the appeal—sometimes, the best history is not true (Mary’s famous twist).

3. The Trojan War in Greek and Roman Identity

[04:45 – 05:39]

• Tom asks if the Greek and Roman civilizations truly begin with the Trojan War.
• Mary notes that the war provides a cosmological starting point, with Rome itself mythically founded by a refugee from Troy, Aeneas.
  • Quote: “The way the Greeks and Romans think about themselves goes back to what they think about the Trojan War. I mean, it’s both a kind of almost cosmic clash... The Trojan War is the place where Greeks and Romans start to debate about the morality of war, what the cost of war is, whether we think heroism is being a warrior or not. And for me, that’s why the stories of the Trojan War are so interesting.” — Mary Beard [04:53]

4. Retelling the Myth: The Story of the War

[05:39 – 09:45]

• Tom invites Mary to recount the sweeping narrative of the Trojan War.
• Mary’s retelling highlights:
  • The war begins, essentially, “with a wedding party from hell” — the marriage of Thetis and Peleus (parents of Achilles).
  • The uninvited goddess of Discord, Eris, throws a golden apple marked “to the most fair,” spurring a vanity contest among goddesses Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite.
  • Prince Paris of Troy is selected as judge; goddesses offer him bribes:
    • Hera: power;
    • Athena: wisdom;
    • Aphrodite: the love of the “most beautiful woman in the world”—Helen.
  • Paris chooses Aphrodite and, with her aid, absconds with Helen (wife of Menelaus), igniting the Greek expedition to Troy.
  • Mary underscores the Greek pact: all kings had agreed to defend Helen’s marriage, thus launching the coalition against Troy.
  • Quote: “And in a nutshell, that is what happens. That’s what the Trojan War is all about. Paris takes Helen back to his city of Troy and he arrives back in Troy with Helen, his new trophy bride.” — Mary Beard [09:18]
  • The Trojans welcome Helen and refuse to return her, setting up the ten-year siege.

5. End of the Segment and Tease for Future Episodes

[09:45 – end]

• Tom closes with a reminder to subscribe for the full episode and series.
• Next week’s topic: Alexander the Great.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "They kind of occupy that funny fuzzy boundary between what’s myth and what’s history... How do we know what’s true or not? And does it matter if it’s true?"
  — Mary Beard [03:23]
• “You think Mary Beard, what’s her trademark? Her trademark is skepticism. So we’re going to have some great story, and then I’m going to come in and say none of it’s true, you know, so I’m going to try and hold myself in a bit.”
  — Mary Beard [04:20]
• “But some of the best history is. Is not true. I think that’s—”
  — Mary Beard [04:41]
• “The way the Greeks and Romans think about themselves goes back to what they think about the Trojan War. I mean, it’s both a kind of almost cosmic clash... The Trojan War is the place where Greeks and Romans start to debate about the morality of war, what the cost of war is, whether we think heroism is being a warrior or not.”
  — Mary Beard [04:53]
• “Paris chooses Aphrodite as the fairest because her bribe is the best. She is offering him the most beautiful, desirable woman in the world for himself. And that woman is Helen.”
  — Mary Beard [08:40]

Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:00 – 01:35: Introduction, setting, and Mary Beard’s influence on Tom
• 01:36 – 03:10: Four iconic themes chosen for series & rationale
• 03:11 – 04:09: Masculinity, myth vs. reality, and Mary’s “skeptic” reputation
• 04:10 – 05:38: Trojan War’s place in Greek and Roman identity
• 05:39 – 09:18: Mary’s vivid retelling of the Trojan War myth
• 09:19 – end: Trojans decide to keep Helen; war commences. Teaser for next episode

Final Thoughts

This lively overview of the Trojan War sets the stage for a series examining ancient history’s greatest epics. The chemistry between Tom Holland and Mary Beard—her skepticism matched with his enthusiasm—makes for compelling listening. Mary’s storytelling distills myth into insight, inviting listeners to consider not just what happened, but why those stories endure. Even for those new to the legend, this episode skillfully lays out the skeleton of the story, its broader connotations, and the timeless questions it poses about truth, heroism, and cultural memory.