The Trojan War, with Mary Beard

Summary

The Rest Is History – The Trojan War, with Mary Beard
Episode Date: October 9, 2025
Hosts: Tom Holland & Dominic Sandbrook
Special Guest: Mary Beard
Location: Leighton House, Kensington, London

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Tom Holland sits down with world-renowned classicist Mary Beard to launch a four-part series on the most iconic themes in ancient history. The focus of this installment is the Trojan War—the legendary conflict at the intersection of myth and history. The discussion delves into the mythic origins, enduring cultural impact, and the blurred lines between history and legend. Listeners are treated to Mary’s incisive storytelling, skeptical wit, and the duo’s engaging banter on whether the Trojan War "really happened" and why it matters.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Series and Setting the Scene

[00:00 – 03:15]

• Tom welcomes listeners from the sumptuous Leighton House and introduces Mary Beard, highlighting her influence and the collaborative spirit behind the series.
  • Notable quote: "And that guest is the most famous classicist in the world... and a woman to whom I owe personally an enormous amount because she was the person who first read Rubicon, my first book on classical history, in manuscript." — Tom Holland [00:50]
• The series will explore four major ancient themes: the Trojan War, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and gladiators (with a Spartacus twist).
• The themes reflect the tension between myth and historical fact and tend to be dominated by male-driven narratives of violence.

2. Why the Trojan War? Myth, Masculinity, and Meaning

[03:10 – 04:45]

• Mary explains the lasting fascination: The Trojan War lies at the foundation of Greek and Roman identity as well as their cultural debates about war, morality, and heroism.
  • Memorable moment/quote: “They kind of occupy that funny fuzzy boundary between what’s myth and what’s history. And that is one of the things I think is most interesting to explore in ancient history. How do we know what’s true or not? And does it matter if it’s true?” — Mary Beard [03:23]
• Tom and Mary note that their perspectives differ, with Mary known for her scholarly skepticism.
• The ambiguity and “unknowability” of history is part of the appeal—sometimes, the best history is not true (Mary’s famous twist).

3. The Trojan War in Greek and Roman Identity

[04:45 – 05:39]

• Tom asks if the Greek and Roman civilizations truly begin with the Trojan War.
• Mary notes that the war provides a cosmological starting point, with Rome itself mythically founded by a refugee from Troy, Aeneas.
  • Quote: “The way the Greeks and Romans think about themselves goes back to what they think about the Trojan War. I mean, it’s both a kind of almost cosmic clash... The Trojan War is the place where Greeks and Romans start to debate about the morality of war, what the cost of war is, whether we think heroism is being a warrior or not. And for me, that’s why the stories of the Trojan War are so interesting.” — Mary Beard [04:53]

4. Retelling the Myth: The Story of the War

[05:39 – 09:45]

• Tom invites Mary to recount the sweeping narrative of the Trojan War.
• Mary’s retelling highlights:
  • The war begins, essentially, “with a wedding party from hell” — the marriage of Thetis and Peleus (parents of Achilles).
  • The uninvited goddess of Discord, Eris, throws a golden apple marked “to the most fair,” spurring a vanity contest among goddesses Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite.
  • Prince Paris of Troy is selected as judge; goddesses offer him bribes:
    • Hera: power;
    • Athena: wisdom;
    • Aphrodite: the love of the “most beautiful woman in the world”—Helen.
  • Paris chooses Aphrodite and, with her aid, absconds with Helen (wife of Menelaus), igniting the Greek expedition to Troy.
  • Mary underscores the Greek pact: all kings had agreed to defend Helen’s marriage, thus launching the coalition against Troy.
  • Quote: “And in a nutshell, that is what happens. That’s what the Trojan War is all about. Paris takes Helen back to his city of Troy and he arrives back in Troy with Helen, his new trophy bride.” — Mary Beard [09:18]
  • The Trojans welcome Helen and refuse to return her, setting up the ten-year siege.

5. End of the Segment and Tease for Future Episodes

[09:45 – end]

• Tom closes with a reminder to subscribe for the full episode and series.
• Next week’s topic: Alexander the Great.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "They kind of occupy that funny fuzzy boundary between what’s myth and what’s history... How do we know what’s true or not? And does it matter if it’s true?"
  — Mary Beard [03:23]
• “You think Mary Beard, what’s her trademark? Her trademark is skepticism. So we’re going to have some great story, and then I’m going to come in and say none of it’s true, you know, so I’m going to try and hold myself in a bit.”
  — Mary Beard [04:20]
• “But some of the best history is. Is not true. I think that’s—”
  — Mary Beard [04:41]
• “The way the Greeks and Romans think about themselves goes back to what they think about the Trojan War. I mean, it’s both a kind of almost cosmic clash... The Trojan War is the place where Greeks and Romans start to debate about the morality of war, what the cost of war is, whether we think heroism is being a warrior or not.”
  — Mary Beard [04:53]
• “Paris chooses Aphrodite as the fairest because her bribe is the best. She is offering him the most beautiful, desirable woman in the world for himself. And that woman is Helen.”
  — Mary Beard [08:40]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:00 – 01:35: Introduction, setting, and Mary Beard’s influence on Tom
• 01:36 – 03:10: Four iconic themes chosen for series & rationale
• 03:11 – 04:09: Masculinity, myth vs. reality, and Mary’s “skeptic” reputation
• 04:10 – 05:38: Trojan War’s place in Greek and Roman identity
• 05:39 – 09:18: Mary’s vivid retelling of the Trojan War myth
• 09:19 – end: Trojans decide to keep Helen; war commences. Teaser for next episode

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Final Thoughts

This lively overview of the Trojan War sets the stage for a series examining ancient history’s greatest epics. The chemistry between Tom Holland and Mary Beard—her skepticism matched with his enthusiasm—makes for compelling listening. Mary’s storytelling distills myth into insight, inviting listeners to consider not just what happened, but why those stories endure. Even for those new to the legend, this episode skillfully lays out the skeleton of the story, its broader connotations, and the timeless questions it poses about truth, heroism, and cultural memory.

Transcript

[Tom Holland]

Thank you for listening to the Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club that is thereestishistory.com hello, everyone, it's Tom Holland here and I have teamed up with the great mega Mary Beard to bring you four episodes on what we together have decided are the four most iconic themes in ancient history. And today we are looking at the Trojan War. Here's a short extract of that episode. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Leighton House in Kensington in London. It's a gorgeous, beautiful, very grand house, full of Arabic touches and classical touches, Gorgeous garden where we had an Athelstan party. And we've come here because we need a sumptuous location for an imperious guest. And that guest is the most famous classicist in the world and a woman to whom I owe personally an enormous amount because she was an the person who first read Rubicon, my first book on classical history in manuscript. And so ever since, I've been incredibly grateful to her as well as being her biggest fan. And it is of course, the great, the one and only Mary Beard.

[Mary Beard]

Tom, thank you very much. I mean, Leighton House is my favourite place in London and it's great to talk to you. And you've just done what you always do. You always said when you introduced me, she was really kind to me. Back in the day, before I'd written.

[Tom Holland]

Rubicon, you were professor of Classics at Cambridge. You've written a lot of wonderful books aimed at more popular market as well as all your academic studies. So you've written books on the Parthenon for the general reader, Pompeii, the Caesars. And we're meeting here because we thought it would be fun, the two of us, to discuss the four most iconic subjects in ancient history, classical history, let's say the history of Greece and Rome specifically. And we've kind of had to and fro and we've come up with four subjects, haven't we? And what did you decide we should do?

[Mary Beard]

Well, we thought we had to do sort of two Greek to Roman.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah.

[Mary Beard]

And how could you not do the Trojan War? You know, where it all begins.

[Tom Holland]

And so that's what we're doing today.

[Mary Beard]

We then thought, how could you not do Alexander the Great? With a certain reservation on my part, it has to be said. But you persuaded me that we should do that. And then. And these do link in a way, as I hope people listening will discover. Then we go from Alexander to Julius Caesar and then gladiators, and with a special lookout for Spartacus of the movie.

[Tom Holland]

All four of those kind of. They're very masculine, aren't they? And they're very much focused on people killing each other.

[Mary Beard]

They are. And I think we thought that it would bring out some of our differences of opinion as well as things we hold in common. And I think also they're not just loads of men killing each other. They are that. Most of them, all of them. I think they kind of occupy that funny fuzzy boundary between what's myth and what's history. And that is one of the things I think is most interesting to explore in ancient history. How do we know what's true or not? And does it matter if it's true? And some of the most important aspects of all these. Some of the most important aspects are the mythical ones, whether or not they're strictly true. So we are kind of. It's going to be a great tightrope, actually, between.

[Tom Holland]

Well, it always is when you're.

[Mary Beard]

You're gonna fall off.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah. You're trying to kind of tell stories that people want to know what actually happen, but often it's the fact we don't know entirely what happened that is the real fascination.

[Mary Beard]

And I know that you think I'm going to be a downer because you think I'm going to be a downer because you think Mary Beard, what's her trademark? Her trademark is skepticism. So we're going to have some great story, and then I'm going to come in and say none of it's true, you know, so I'm going to try and hold myself in a bit.

[Tom Holland]

You will make it much more interesting than just saying it's all rubbish. No, I have absolute confidence in that.

[Mary Beard]

But some of the best history is. Is not true. I think that's.

[Tom Holland]

Well, so on that topic, would it be fair to say that really Greek and Roman civilization, in a sense, begins with this?

[Mary Beard]

Yeah, the way the Greeks and Romans think about themselves goes back to what they think about the Trojan War. I mean, it's both a kind of almost cosmic clash which ends up slightly indirectly, with the foundation of Rome, because Aeneas, one of the Trojan warriors, flees and founds the Roman race in Italy. The Trojan War is the place where Greeks and Romans start to debate about the morality of war, what the cost of war is, whether we think heroism is being a warrior or not. And for me, that's why the stories of the Trojan War are so interesting.

[Tom Holland]

Yeah, brilliant. Well, could we. Before we come on to the kind of the broader cultural context and what it meant for the Greeks and the Romans. And of course, in due course, the question that I'm sure lots of people will want to know your opinion on, did it actually happen? Can you tell us the story of the Trojan War itself? And I'm aware that there are multiple versions of it, so feel free to kind of complicate it, but a general sense of, you know, what's going on. Why did the Greeks and the Trojans come to fight? What's the sweep of the narrative?

[Mary Beard]

Where did it start? That's the question here we got this, you know, semi cosmic conflict. How did it begin? Well, it began with a wedding party from hell, really. But the goddess Thetis is getting married to a mortal man called Peleus. Now these in the end are going to be the parents of Achilles. But Achilles hasn't been born yet. Great hero of the Greek side. Now, they made a terrible error. We all know about this. They didn't. There was somebody they should have invited, but they didn't. And they should have invited the goddess. Discord, conflict, Eris in Greek. So like a sort of mad grey aunt, Eris turns up anyway, determined to have her say, and she throws into this divine wedding party really a golden apple which says on it to the most fair. It's written on this apple. It could be to the best, to the finest. Kaliste is the word in Greek, which can mean beautiful, but can mean morally good too. And three goddesses start to squabble about who owns the apple. And there's Hera, the quote's queen of the gods. There's Athena, the oversimplifying goddess of wisdom. And there's Aphrodite, who is the goddess of beauty. And they can't work out who owns the apple, therefore, and in order to adjudicate, and I think the quite hard to see the details of how this adjudication came into being, it was decided that Paris, who was the, at that point, estranged son of King Priam of Troy and his wife, Queen Hecuba, should decide which goddess had the apple. So he meets them and they all kind of. Each one tries to sort of bribe him, saying, if you choose me, I'll give you something you really need, right? Hero's going to give him power, Athena's going to give him wisdom. Paris chooses Aphrodite as the fairest because her bribe is the best. She is offering him the most beautiful, desirable woman in the world for himself. And that woman is Helen. What is going to happen is that Paris is going to go and get Helen. That's what he does. Now, Helen was so beautiful and had been so lovely and had been such a prize for Menelaus when he won her as his wife, that in order to kind of stop future trouble and civil war amongst the Greeks, they had agreed that if anybody came and pinched Helen, all the Greek kings and leaders would gang up and support Menelaus and go and get her back. And in a nutshell, that is what happens. That's what the Trojan War is all about. Paris takes Helen back to his city of Troy and he arrives back in Troy with Helen, his new trophy bride.

[Tom Holland]

And all the Trojans think, wow, she's great. We're never giving her back. And so that then sets up the war. Thanks for listening. You can subscribe to the Rest Is History club@the restishistory.com to hear the whole episode, to hear the whole series in due course, and to get our massive, insanely brilliant range of other benefits. Mary and I will be back next week with Alexander the Great.