268. The price of financial hype

Summary

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The Rest Is Money – Episode 268: "The Price of Financial Hype"

Date: April 8, 2026
Host: Steph McGovern (for Goalhanger)
Guest: Stella Creasy, Labour & Cooperative MP for Walthamstow

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Steph McGovern and guest Stella Creasy, a prominent MP and consumer rights advocate. They tackle the rise of unregulated financial influencers ("finfluencers") on social media, the damage caused by misleading money advice online, and the growing vulnerability of UK individuals and small businesses to scams and debt traps. The discussion also covers policy efforts to rein in these practices, the psychological drivers behind financial hype, practical reforms needed, and how systemic issues in financial literacy and economic inequality are exploited for profit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rise of "Finfluencers" and Unregulated Financial Advice

• Social Media's Money Gurus: Steph opens by highlighting the proliferation of individuals online who promise quick-fix solutions for making or saving money, noting their similarities to classic con men.
• Lack of Regulation: Stella explains that while industries like crypto-promotion are regulated, tax advice online remains "the Wild West".
  • "Anybody can give you tax advice, but if they're doing it in this way, then they will now fall foul of this law." – Stella Creasy (00:21)

2. Vulnerable Audiences and Real-World Impacts

• Who Gets Targeted: Stella outlines how cost-of-living crises and self-employment trends make the public, especially her constituents, susceptible to "hokum".

  • "There's too much month at the end of their money... these people are preying on people like my constituents." – Stella (02:36)

• Emotional Toll: Shame prevents people from seeking help when they fall for such advice, which is often disguised as clever loopholes.

  • "The shame that people feel... they feel embarrassed that they got caught." – Stella (03:35)

3. The Mechanics and Dangers of Financial Misinformation

• Finfluencer Tactics: Outlandish claims drive views (e.g., “10 ways to earn a million tax-free”; property flipping without taxes; "put your kids on payroll").

  • "Three-quarters of the financial advice online is actually incorrect." – Stella (04:40)

• Widespread Fines and Risks: More people are receiving HMRC fines due to following bad advice.

  • "People are being caught up, but there's an increase [in fines]." – Stella (08:49)

• Echo Chamber Effect: Algorithms repeat claims until they seem credible. Misinformation gets scraped by AI and search engines, creating a circular truth effect.

  • "...becomes truthful in its own right... people are reading it on camera." – Stella (11:07)

4. The "Manosphere," Lifestyle Marketing, and Societal Risk

• Interplay with Toxic Influencer Cultures: Financial hype is packaged alongside so-called “manosphere” content that is predatory and toxic.

  • "It's not just about financial advice. They're selling a lifestyle, a particular ethos." – Stella (14:58)

• Exploitation of Hopes and Insecurities: Messaging appeals to those who lack traditional opportunities.

  • "...they're preying on people at their lowest, the sense of the world is a really difficult place right now." – Stella (17:47)

5. Education, Financial Illiteracy, and Systemic Inequality

• Poor Education on Money Matters: Both argue UK schools are failing to teach practical financial skills.

  • "You don't leave school understanding finance. It’s something Martin Lewis has gone on about for years." – Steph (18:14)

• Risk and Reality: Poor families often understand budgeting—what they're lacking is genuine opportunity and access to affordable finance.

  • "They know how much money they don't have... It’s not about being stupid, they're being shortchanged." – Stella (19:10, 22:48)

• Educational Stigma: System undervalues entrepreneurial and risk-taking skills of disadvantaged youth.

  • "Education is telling them that they're not very clever and they’re not going to do well in life." – Steph (21:06)

6. Legal and Regulatory Developments

• New Legislation: Stella describes Parliament’s move to bring online finfluencers under the same enforcement as tax avoidance promoters, via new HMRC guidance and powers.

  • "If we can prove they're doing it in a way that’s for monetary gain and they know it's harmful, they will now fall foul of this law." – Stella (13:39)

• Call for More Aggressive Regulation: Both criticize slow, piecemeal action on buy-now-pay-later, payday lending, and lack of real-time enforcement.

  • "It is a game of whack-a-mole... Another version of this stuff will be created because there’ll always be a need." – Stella (29:47)

• Cap on Costs: Stella advocates for strict caps “not to stop lending, it's a way of slowing down their profits.”

7. Broader Societal and Technological Trends

• AI Deepfakes and Fraud: Growing problems with AI-generated financial scams, impersonation of trusted figures like Martin Lewis and even the host herself.

  • "I was sent one the other day… AI cannot do a northeastern accent. So it's me… but then put a cockney accent on me." – Steph (33:06)

• Pressure on Social Media Firms: Calls to hold social platforms responsible for viral financial scams.

  • "There's a disincentive for them to do anything about it... they make money the more viral it goes." – Stella (34:05)

8. Debt, Poverty, and Community Responses

• Debt Masked by Arrears: A fall in overall debt figures masks a rise in people unable to pay basic bills—posing systemic danger.

  • "If people are just not paying the bills, we've got a huge problem." – Steph (27:37)

• Community Solutions: Calls for the revival of credit unions and local community investment to keep money circulating where it's most needed.

  • "I'd love the mayor of London… to say that anybody who joins the London Credit Union could get a discount on London Transport." – Stella (30:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Social Media Financial Hype:
  "A lot of what these people are saying is complete hokum... we're living in a country that’s had a cost living crisis for donkeys years." – Stella Creasy (01:53)

• On the Shame of Debt:
  "The shame that people feel... We've got to get over that as a country because so many people are getting caught out by this stuff." – Stella Creasy (03:35)

• On Regulation Gaps:
  "The challenge with tax advice is it's not regulated... anybody can give you tax advice." – Stella Creasy (13:39)

• On the Dynamics of Misinformation:
  "If you see it being repeated enough times... the more people think, 'Oh, that might be true.'" – Stella Creasy (11:07)

• On AI and Fake Endorsements:
  "I was sent one the other day, which was quite hilarious actually because AI cannot do a northeastern accent. So it's me and... then put a cockney accent on me." – Steph McGovern (33:06)

• On Debt as a Societal Issue:
  "For a lot of people, the washing machine breaks down, it's game over... that tips them over into the spiral." – Stella Creasy (29:14)

• On Hope and Legislation:
  "The law is going to go through... when these people get a knock on their door and I hope it sends a strong message about don't rip off the British public." – Stella Creasy (38:08)

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Important Timestamps

• Finfluencer Hype & Regulation: 01:53–04:40
• Personal Impact, Shame, and Tactics: 03:35–05:41
• Tax Scams & Online Echo Chambers: 06:45–11:49
• Connection to Manosphere & Toxic Influencers: 14:10–16:39
• Education Reform & Systemic Inequality: 18:14–22:48
• Legislation and Regulatory Response: 12:40–13:39, 29:47–30:14
• The Role of AI & Platform Accountability: 33:06–35:30
• Community Solutions and Credit Unions: 31:27–32:23
• Broad Reflections on Debt & Societal Trust: 27:37–29:47, 37:22–39:46
• Closing Optimism/Outlook: 38:08–38:19

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, lively, and often laced with humor, but underpinned by grave concerns about contemporary financial risks. Both Steph and Stella are passionate about protecting the vulnerable and skeptical of institutional inertia or commercial apathy. The episode closes with cautious optimism: new rules are coming, but constant vigilance, education, and community commitment are required to outpace fraudsters and empower the public.

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For further understanding:

• The Rest Is Money offers nuanced, real-world insight into the intersection of personal finance, politics, and technology.
• This episode is essential listening for anyone concerned about online scams, financial education, and how policy can better protect everyday people.

Transcript

[Stella Creasy]

A lot of what these people are saying is complete hokum.

[Steph McGovern]

There's now all sorts of people popping up telling you how to make money quick or how to pay off your debt quick. What are you thinking about all this when you see it? That is a red flag Manosphere documentary by Louis Theroux. It was just money. These are just con men. They're motivated by money because soon as they were challenged, they'd back down on what they thought.

[Stella Creasy]

So the Financial Conduct Authority was able to take a number of these finfluencers to court over. I think it was crypto selling because that is a regulated industry. The challenge with tax advice is it's not regular regulated. So anybody can give you tax advice, but if they're doing it in this way, then they will now fall foul of this law.

[Steph McGovern]

Hello and welcome to the Rest Is Money. With me, Steph McGovern. Now with me today is Stella Creasy, the Labour and Cooperative MP for Walthamstore in London. Now, Stella is a prominent consumer rights campaigner, probably best known for her work to regulate high cost credit, which included successfully pressuring the government to give the financial conduct Authority powers to cap payday lending loan costs. Stella's got a real passion for helping people in debt and today she's going to chat to us about her campaign to regular influencers on social media who give people misleading tax and financial advice, otherwise known as financial influences. Influences is the phrase that they're often referred to now. So here's my interview with Stella Creasy. So Stella, thanks for coming in to talk about this because it's really interesting what's happening online in terms of financial advice, isn't it? There's now all sorts of people popping up telling you how to make money quick or how to pay off your debt quick. What are you thinking about all this when you see it?

[Stella Creasy]

I'm really worried because a lot of what these people are saying is complete hokum. But we are living in a country that's had a cost living crisis for donkeys years. You've got millions of people who are now self employed or set up a business of their own. They're really suscep this stuff and these people make their money off the likes and the advertising for it. And the fact that they get people then drawn into the seminars that they run about how to fiddle your taxes, which is essentially what they're doing. I think it's gone under, it's. I think it's gone unnoticed. That was the thing that really, really worried me about it. So I, I spend a lot of my time when it comes to financial things being a bit like Bob Peck in Jurassic park, you know, everyone else look at the Tyrannosaurus rex and I'm like, look at the Velociraptors. And I felt like that about payday lenders.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

I felt like that about buy now, pay later companies. It was like, look, these people were exploiting vulnerable people. I could see it in my constituency, I represent God's own country of Walthamstow. It is the best place in the universe as far as I'm concerned. But it's a community with a lot of people for whom there is too much month at the end of their money. And so people offering them ways to either borrow or to try and save money to actually get them into more trouble. Well, that gets my backup.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

And I'd been worried for some time and talking to various experts like Dan Needle about. I'm seeing all this stuff on my social media. Can that be true? Because I also think it's fair to say, like, the tax code in this country is not simple, it's so complicated and like it drives me crazy that you can set off against your taxes taking somebody out to lunch to try and promote your business, but not say the child care that you might need to be able to be in that lunch. So there's lots of places where I think it doesn't work. But fundamentally these people, as far as I'm concerned, are preying on people like my constituents. And I've had casework about these people as well.

[Steph McGovern]

So you've had people come in to talk to you about your constituency and

[Stella Creasy]

one of the things about doing a lot of work on kind of financial matters is the shame that people feel. Yeah, they feel embarrassed that they got caught because people will say to you, well, if it sounds too good to be true, it is. But we've got to get over that as a country because so many people are getting caught out by this stuff. And these people are, you know, living off in Dubai scot free and boasting about how they're claiming holidays off the tax man, all this sort of thing.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

And look, you know, everyone knows about tax avoidance and kind of maybe big major people and the stories in the press and the government was bringing forward this legislation to be able to tackle that and the kind of professional companies. And I was like, yep, that's important. But millions of people are being hit by these people and that's just going under the radar. So it's the same principle. We need to do something about that too.

[Steph McGovern]

There's loads I want to get into on this, but let's start by just.

[Stella Creasy]

First of all, my Instagram feed is really off,

[Steph McGovern]

so let us drill down into the people you're talking about here and what the motive is for them. So what you're saying is these people are putting out what, they're putting out sound bites, which is getting them clicks.

[Stella Creasy]

As as ever, there's always a term for it, which is finfluency.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

So they are offering financial advice online, not because they have. I mean, some of them claim to be accountants or claim to be qualified, but they're doing it. And obviously the way the online world works is that the more outlandish the claim they make, the more likely people are to watch it, the more likely they are to go viral, the more like they are to draw attention to themselves and their businesses and the ways that they're making money. So the finfluence of it is financial advice online. There's lots of different types of things. So there's people offering you crypto schemes and all sorts of things. The one I'm particularly concerned about at the moment is tax. Just because for a lot of people their tax bill is a challenge and especially if they're self employed. And what these people are doing is saying, oh, no, no, don't worry, don't worry. You can minimize what you have to pay in tax if you just use this clever wheeze. And they're not clever wheezes. So there's some research showing you that three quarters of the financial advice online is actually incorrect. It's one thing, it's a very bad thing. Obviously people lose money. It's another thing, actually, they get a knock on the door from the tax man because they've filled in an incorrect form and then they get a fine as well, or sometimes even worse.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah. Before we get into the meat of this, let's go to a quick break.

[Commercial Break Announcer]

Foreign.

[Steph McGovern]

To say that this year the rest is money is being powered by Octopus Energy. And that means we get to welcome back the founder of Octopus Energy, Greg Jackson, now CEO of it. Time for a quick fire question. What's the one bit of advice you give a young entrepreneur? Maybe it's stuff that people don't normally talk about.

[Greg Jackson]

Don't be arrogant, but do be confident. Almost by definition, as an entrepreneur, you're doing stuff that other people didn't think is going to work or that they've discounted or dismissed. So you have to Be confident to believe in your own ideas and your ability to deliver them. But you should still listen to everyone else and learn from them and not be arrogant. I think that is the secret to being able to build something special but successful.

[Steph McGovern]

Well, cheers Greg and thank you for powering this episode of the Rest Is Money. K Pop Demon Hunters Paja Boy's Breakfast

[Stella Creasy]

Meal and Hunt Tricks meal have just dropped at McDonald's.

[Steph McGovern]

They're calling this a battle for the fans.

[Additional Guest or Voice]

What do you say to that, Rumi?

[Stella Creasy]

It's not a battle.

[Additional Guest or Voice]

So glad the Saja Boys could take

[Stella Creasy]

breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[Additional Guest or Voice]

It is an honor to share.

[Stella Creasy]

No, it's our honor.

[Steph McGovern]

It is our larger honor.

[Stella Creasy]

No, really stop.

[Steph McGovern]

You can really feel the reception expect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side

[Stella Creasy]

and participate in McDonald's while supplies last.

[Additional Guest or Voice]

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[Steph McGovern]

Some of the cases what they're saying is is wrong in the sense of it's not good advice, but it's not necessarily encouraging illegal stuff. So it's not like some of it is tax evasion, but some of it is the tax avoidance, which is tax

[Stella Creasy]

avoidance, but it's things like. So it's telling people obviously to put their kids on their business. Now obviously there are people who do work with their parents. Right. So they are part of a legitimate business. But there's somebody saying, oh, you know, from the age of 13, you can put your kid on business and then you can claim 12 and a half grand against that. That's clearly not true. But it's not illegal in the sense of there are people who work with their family members. So part of it is absolutely exploiting the fact our tax code is complicated and there are scenarios in which that is legitimate. Yeah, giving it as a wheeze. Like there's some people who do kind of 10 ways that you can earn a million pounds tax free was one of the claims. And it was things like that. It was things about flipping properties and saying that you didn't need to pay tax. That's just not true. But it is more complicated than just being straight out illegal.

[Steph McGovern]

And how much of A problem, is it then, is this just getting bigger and bigger in terms of the number of people doing this?

[Stella Creasy]

We've seen an increase in the numbers of people being fined by HMRC and an increase in number of HMRC claims that people aren't paying the tax that they're due. And so there are, people are being caught up with, but there's an increase

[Steph McGovern]

because we, we, I mean we've talked loads on this show about that gap between what should be coming into HMRC and what actually does, because lots of people get it wrong, particularly small businesses and things.

[Stella Creasy]

So I don't think there's malice in that.

[Steph McGovern]

Right.

[Stella Creasy]

I think there's a lot of people who are genu genuinely struggling and think, right, oh actually if I can do that, great. And that's where these people are preying on them because they're, you know, it's never a risk free option for them. It's always about getting you to click their videos, share their stuff, get into their seminars and then you're ending up paying thousands of pounds to be on their courses to be told how you can save money on your tax bill and you're not. But it's also the risk then that you are going to do something that means that the tax people are going to come after you and no business wants that. You know, I, I would much rather hmrc and I'm hoping from the work we've in Parliament, HMRC is getting the very clear message that we want them to go after these people.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

And not my constituents who are, you know, barely scraping by as small business trade or sole traders thinking they're doing the right thing and finding out they're doing the wrong thing.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah. And are, is it easy to find these people who are doing it because.

[Stella Creasy]

Yes, absolutely. Because like, say they're online. Just look at my Instagram.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, they're all having a go at you.

[Stella Creasy]

Yeah. No, no, it's not just they're all having a go at me, it's that it literally comes up fintok. It's the sort of thing, it's all over Instagram, it's all over TikTok. It's all part and parce of the online world that people are now living in. There's millions of people seeing this stuff on a daily basis and if you see it being repeated enough times that somehow the thing about how you can claim 300 quid in Amazon vouchers for free if you do it, it's something called a trivial benefit and you do it £50 a time and you can claim all of this and you can buy yourself a treat, like, take a step back for a moment and you think, well, if that was the case, that's not right. But that is what these people are saying. And it's not the truth about how a trivial benefit works. But if you see that being circulated enough times, and I've seen that in hundreds of different videos from hundreds of different people doing this, people think it's true. The other thing I would say is, of course, in the online AI world, the information these people are pumping out then gets scraped and put into kind of searches. So then it becomes kind of truthful in its own right. Because people are reading it on camera.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah. Because it becomes circular. Yeah, yeah. Which was one of the problems with Wikipedia was once a, you know, a media outlet would use something on Wikipedia, it then became the evidence for the source of Wikipedia.

[Stella Creasy]

At one point, somebody changed my Wikipedia to say that I was Howard Marks's assistant and was right. And that I was personally flying planes full of drugs, which, given that I'm scared of flying, I was like, I'm loving this. I'm loving this alter ego that I have. But, yeah, like, this stuff does get circulated now and it gets scraped off the Internet. So it then becomes something that people have heard several times. And of course, the law of average is more people hear it, the more people think, oh, that might be true.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah. And obviously there's all algorithm element to this, which is, you know, once you start looking for money stuff, then you're just gonna constantly get all of this pumped at you.

[Stella Creasy]

And the other thing I would say is, like, absolutely. Like, I grew up in a household where my dad used to stockpile cop a witch.

[Steph McGovern]

Right.

[Stella Creasy]

We could never just buy anything. It was drilled into me that you

[Steph McGovern]

had to have a look.

[Stella Creasy]

You had to go and look at the reviews. You had to do homework, like, pity my poor partner whenever we tried to, like, buy a sofa. And he was just like, what about that? I was like, no, no, no. We need to like. So I want people to have access to good advice, because one of the ways that you stop people being ripped off is good advice. And there are good advisors out there. There are people giving you genuine information, which is why when this stuff is kind of slewing around as well, I think it's really important that we recognize it for what it is, which is promoting tax avoidance.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah. And. And I want to. About that, about the. The issue with financial literacy and just the. The need for that as well. But. But on this particular point, then what is the case at the moment with people putting this out? Because that's what you're trying to change, aren't you, in terms of change?

[Stella Creasy]

And it was, you know, it was really good. The treasury ministers were like, yeah, actually this is a problem, isn't it? Like they hadn't really thought about it or spotted it. So the government was bringing new laws to tackle companies who promote tax avoidance. To say that was really aimed at those kind of high end, high net worth individuals.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes, the ones Dan Needle always goes for and.

[Stella Creasy]

Exactly, yeah. Those people, I actually think, look, those people can afford the tax bill that comes when they get caught. Right. I'm talking about the people who can't afford, you know, who couldn't afford it in the first place. And so what I've done is to get the government to clarify that all the legislation they brought in will apply to these people as well. And how you define what monetary gain is. And there's going to be guidance issued to hmrc and obviously HMRC is a independent organization, but it's basically saying like, we want you to go after these people. So, you know, fingers crossed that some of them are going to get knocked from the tax because of course they've all had to fly back from Dubai.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, yes, yeah, they certainly have. But we have seen, haven't we recently, cases of influencers being taken to court.

[Stella Creasy]

So the Financial Conduct Authority was able to take a number of these influencers to court over, I think it was crypto selling because that is a regulated industry. The challenge with tax advice is it's not regulated. So anybody can give you tax advice, but if they're doing it in this way and we can prove that they're doing it in a way it's a monetary gain and they know it's harmful, then they will now fall foul of this law. And it's just finally going through Parliament.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes. So what, what's your, you know, what do you want the end result?

[Stella Creasy]

Well, I say for me it is sort of the Al Capone thing because I also see these people and I think we should talk about the manosphere, right?

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

Because when you look at the manosphere and obviously people have seen the documentaries, there's a lot of talk about it, understandably, a lot of concern about the kind of influences, the ideas circulating around men, young men and people talking about the violence and the anti Semitism and the misogyny. But I thought, well, actually also, look, there's a lot of this fine influencer stuff as well, so you know, for me, there's a, there's a, there's an element here where it's. I think of it as the Al Capone approach is like actually a lot of these people, because what they're doing and what they're saying is tax avoidance and they are promoting it and they're talking about doing it themselves. I'd like to see HMRC going after those people.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes.

[Stella Creasy]

As well, because. Because now when I look at a lot of these people, it's not just about financial advice. They're selling a lifestyle, they're selling a particular ethos. So one of them last night accused me of viciously attacking him about his, the stuff he was promoting. And he's really terrible man in terms of. I've talked to people who, I mean, a young man killed himself because of being part of this man's goods, you know, But I've talked to people who've been hit by lawsuits by this guy and he, he put up a message saying that it was because he wanted to buy churches and support Christianity. That's was viciously attacking him. I was like, no, it's nothing to do with God, mate. It's everything to do with the quant.

[Steph McGovern]

That's a really interesting thing. So when I watched that Manosphere documentary by Louis Theroux, I was really fascinated because I think there is definitely a need for people to be helped to achieve what they can in life. I grew up in an area where I grew up with a lot of those lads who were told they were thick because they didn't have the structure at home to do well in their exams. They were told, but often they weren't the ones that were gonna do well in life. It's all ethnic diversity and it's all about being a woman. And they're the people who are going to be given an extra lift. And you lads have always had it easy. So we're not going to help you anymore. And I've, I've seen that very much play out in where I grew up. So giving them some self worth and all of that makes sense. But what I was really shocked me in the Manosphere documentary was it. It wasn't even about that. It was just money. These are just con men. They're motivated by money because soon as they were challenged, even by their partners who were women or whatever or. Louis on. You know, what would you say if your mom said this? They'd back down on what they thought it was.

[Stella Creasy]

It's just all about the getting you to sign up for sign up for

[Steph McGovern]

this better life where you're going to feel.

[Stella Creasy]

And look, you know, we should be honest. We live in a country where people can inherit a million pounds tax free. In my community in Walthamstow, it is the bank of Mum and Dad. That is the difference between able to take risks, whether it is going to university or setting up your own business, or even getting on the housing ladder. And you can see that divergence getting bigger and bigger. The kids who have families who can borrow on their behalf, use an asset to support, support them, and the kids for whom that is just never going to be an option, and their families that are living with 15, 16 grand worth of personal debt on various credit cards. And it's always why I've been obsessed with it, because you can see it's not just about the money, it's about the risk. Like, we are now living in a world where these kids are going to have probably seven different jobs in their lifetime, two of which haven't yet been invented. It is a fundamentally different world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you're already coming from a background, like you say, where people have kind of written you off or you don't have the resources to be able to take chances, then of course, somebody coming along and being like, actually, you're worth something and I'm going to teach you the code, I'm going to show you how the matrix works. Like, that is very appealing.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, totally.

[Stella Creasy]

And that's why I'm so angry with these people as well, because I really feel like they're preying on people at their lowest, which is that sense of the world is a really difficult place right now. How on earth do I help my family? How do I succeed?

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

So somebody come along and saying to you, hey, you can take your family for a holiday, just pretend to the tax man it was work. Well, you know, we can all sympathize with that, but we can all see the point at that, the risk that that is that that person is going to get a fine and then they're going to be further and further back in their financial status.

[Steph McGovern]

So what I think when, when, you know, when I'm looking at all this happening is it's a lot of this still comes back to the fact that people don't really have much financial knowledge. You don't leave school understanding finance. And, you know, it's something Martin Lewis has gone about for years. I've gone on for years. There is a real problem in education in that when not teaching stuff about

[Stella Creasy]

it, we're now, supposed to be.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes, but. But it's only in secondary school at the moment and it's still in a citizenship lesson and you don't do them that often. It's like it's still not a core learning, is it, in school? And that is part of the problem is you're getting lords of whatever, young people coming out of school, hearing people who they think have done well, because they're seeing this version of them on. On social media, where everyone is now, now, and they're thinking, right, that's how you do it. Because no one's taught me up to this point how you make money legitimately.

[Stella Creasy]

But the other. The other thing I would say about this is actually almost something a bit darker. It's like, I know in my local community in Walthamstow that my residents know exactly how much money they don't have.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, right.

[Stella Creasy]

They know that they actually are very good at budgeting. They know how expensive things are getting. So if somebody comes along and shows you a cheat code.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes.

[Stella Creasy]

Like that feels like your only option. I mean, part of this is also about where are people accessing affordable finance? You know, when I first came into parliament in 2010, we still had a credit union in my local community. That's gone now. So actually, for people to have stable forms of finance where they can invest in their idea, like, the kids in my community are bright and smart. I promise you, Stefan. Yes, of course, go across the border, not so much. But like Walthamstow, those kids are worth fighting for. And one of them could cure cancer. But they don't have the same opportunities to realise their potential. And instead they're in families, which are. Precarious is the word for it. Right. So actually they know you're right. Finance can be confusing, but also they just know they don't have money.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

Somebody's offering them a fast track into success and they're seeing it. You know, they're seeing the cars and. Yeah, they're then also seeing the stuff about women will be submissive to you and you'll be on telly, you'll be famous. You know, it's. It. It's tick tock famous, isn't it? Like, I don't think. I don't think. I know. It's really important. Whenever we see all this stuff and everyone gets very excited. It's like adolescents. Everyone gets very excited. It's like, it's not about judging, it's about understanding how we got to that stage.

[Steph McGovern]

Totally.

[Stella Creasy]

And saying, how do we create an alternative pathway yeah. Where actually, because you are bright, like, the kids in Walthamstow are entrepreneurs. They're much more entrepreneurial than I ever.

[Steph McGovern]

This is what I say all the time, though. But they're not assessed on that in education, so, you know, again.

[Stella Creasy]

But even if they could. Even if they could, like, get. It's like, I would love to bring back child trust funds because there's now a generation of kids who are getting a chunk of money at 18, but those have disappeared.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

And actually, what all the evidence showed us was that families on the lowest incomes were the ones who are using those the most and saving the most for their kids. So they had options.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah. Like, I see that all the time with, like, the poorest people in, you know, where I live, saying to me, or how do I put a bit of money aside? I don't really have any, but, like, I don't want the same thing to happen to my kids or whatever. But there is. There is definitely a problem. You're totally right. Like, I say this all the time about young people. The ones who have got the hardest lives are the biggest risk takers because they understand risk better than anyone else. They're the most resilient, they're the best communicators quite often because they've had to talk themselves out of so many situations or deal with those situations. But education is telling them that they're not very clever and that they're not going to do well in life because. Oh, you know, you.

[Stella Creasy]

Well, education needs to catch up with where these kids are.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes.

[Stella Creasy]

And also we need to recognise it's not enough for them to have a great education if you're going to need a chunk of cash to be able to commit to go to university. I mean, it's a good example now about all the debates around Plan 2 student loans. Like, I do actually think there's a problem there because people thought they'd signed up to one level of debt.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

And in fact, they've got another. So, like, I will tell kids to get into that debt because it is a good opportunity, but I need to be able to be confident they know what debt they're getting into. Because for the kids who've got mum and dad who can make up the slack, that's one thing. If these kids don't have that because Mum and Dad have got massive personal debts or they've got other siblings, it's too much of a risk. And I can. They know that. So they know that what we're telling them are the options aren't really the options for them. Not because they couldn't do the course or because they're not bright, but because we haven't dealt with the inequalities in the system that mean this is a harder choice for them, them. But I just. I hate it when people, particularly in Parliament, talk about people being misled, as if people in my community are stupid. They're not stupid, they're being shortchanged.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah. And I think as well, though, like, I think I'm probably telling young people the opposite to you in terms of. I'm saying, don't take on that debt, don't go to uni, let's be more entrepreneurial. Apprenticeships, vocational training. I know it's not got the parity of esteem it really should have with academics, but that. It is that thing of the stigma around debt. It's like, it's fine to get into debt, it's fine to. To get into debt at uni. And then that kind of exacerbates this view.

[Stella Creasy]

If you've made a choice that this is a course you want to do, we've got to make that happen for you. And part of it may well be debt, because the honest truth is you probably will earn more. You're right about vocational qualifications. You know, we've had this debate for donkeys years in this country and it

[Steph McGovern]

never just says anything.

[Stella Creasy]

We've never sourced it out. And you look at other countries, like Germany, and it's a much more equal system. Like, one of the reasons I took on the payday lenders is because people used to say, is the dot IN the wrong place? And you were like, no, no, no, it is that level of interest. And then all the companies kept saying to me, oh, well, it's technology, and you wouldn't understand. Grand. And I was like, no, no, I understand a ripoff and I understand the compound element of this, but you're not being clear with people about that. And where we get to is then people say, well, if we're clear about the numbers, people know the risks they can take on. That is true for some debts. Some debts are always exploitative. And that's where I think it's right for the government to step in. So that's the thing for me about this tax avoidance stuff is like, it is not fair to ask people to be able to navigate a complicated tax system. We need to simplify the tax system, but in the meantime, we need to reduce the level of harm that comes from people telling you that you can AVO tax in this or this, this way, not because they take a cut of the money that you save, but because it helps promote their business.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, the, the other thing I wanted to ask you about as well is you and I both do work with Step Change, really important charity helping people with their money problems. You know, and, and you've already mentioned the shame. That's a big part of people not getting the help they should be. You've got to get it as soon as you can. What really fascinated me is, you know, on this show we're always looking at the macro picture and talking about, you know, the big statistics on what's gdp, what's inflation of this. And you know, when you go back home, none of that really matters. Everyone's just thinking about what's happening in their community.

[Stella Creasy]

Well, they think about like the cost of a pint.

[Steph McGovern]

Exactly.

[Stella Creasy]

I was about the cost of popcorn because my kids, like they're probably cut them. They would bleed popcorn. Like they just wolf it down.

[Steph McGovern]

Is it going up in price or.

[Stella Creasy]

Well, it used to be a quid a packet and now it's £1 25.

[Steph McGovern]

So I'm probably smaller.

[Stella Creasy]

Well, yeah, Shrinkflation is exactly. But like for me, that's my litmus test about what is happening. Like actually, can I put something in front of my kids that keeps them quiet for just like five minutes, which is a bag of popcorn. And I can think, Lord's mom, I

[Steph McGovern]

want to ask you in terms of how we tackle this, but let's go to a quick break.

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[Steph McGovern]

One of the things we're often thinking about is debt and household debt, business debt. And the picture on that front has got better. A lot of it because of what happened during COVID And then those people had that bit of extra money, thought, oh, my God, this is like a hell of a rainy day. We need to think about future ones and manage to pay down some of their debt. But what I found really fascinating is actually what's the real story behind those numbers and talking to step change. They were talking about how actually now credit is harder to get. It's more expensive. So that debt is masked by people who are in arrears. So it's people, and they'll be your constituents you're talking about who now used to pay their bills on credit and pay off things with credit cards and get into debt that way, and now just not paying the bills. And that's really dangerous as well, isn't it? Like, this sense of, okay, overall debt, figures might be down, but if people are just not paying the bills, we've got a huge problem.

[Stella Creasy]

Totally. And it's. It's people understanding what they can do. Like you say, the. The reason why shame matters so much is the thing that breaks my heart is when somebody asks for a meeting with me and they're like, I'm going to lose my house on Friday and it's Monday. And you're like, there's very little we can do in seven days. You know, we've got to try and get you on the housing register because they've got behind in a whole series of debts, and it's. It's spiraled and spiraled and spiraled. And that's because they thought that they could keep juggling and juggling and juggling. And the way in which credit has been sold in this country has perpetuated that idea. You know, that was always the buy now, pay later people. I was always wary of, instantly wary of any credit company that would say to me, oh, no, we have a very low level of default. And I'd be like, really? Because a lot of people are struggling. And they'd be, oh, well, no, as long as people pay back to begin with, we'll keep lending to them. And you're like, why? That is a red flag. That is a red flag. We do need to have more affordable credit in this country. I'm not sat here in a sackcloth telling people that you shouldn't want to take your kids out at the weekend and you shouldn't want to lead some kind of semblance life, because that's where the finfluence has come in with the cheat codes. What we have to do is help people manage what is a good debt and what is a bad debt. So people would say a good debt is the debt that keeps you in a house and it keeps you a roof over your head and it gives you some stability and it gives you an asset. A bad debt is one that spirals and you don't know what you're paying back. And actually that debt in itself is getting you into debt. I'm doing some work with Step Change and the Centre for Responsible Credit. We're hoping to do a workshop in Parliament in the next couple of months about that and what that looks like

[Steph McGovern]

a workshop in Parliament, what to teach

[Stella Creasy]

the politicians to raise the issue. Because the honest truth is we've kind of accepted as a country that personal debt is just there.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[Stella Creasy]

That really worries me because it's all very well, like, say if you've got the bank of Mum and Dad to fall back on, but for a lot of people, the washing machine breaks down, it's game over. And that tips them over into the spiral.

[Steph McGovern]

But. But on that, though, that, that's, you know, if. If we had the buy now, pay later people here, if we had some of the, you know, the. The people who, you know, you might see as providing expensive credit, but they're often the people who will are the only ones who do give credit to people on low incomes who don't have the credit written and whatever else. So they are providing a function.

[Stella Creasy]

Yes, but at what cost? I mean, I sit here as somebody who. It's like a game of whack back them all. Like, we've managed to get regulation of buy now, pay lender far too late. I thought. I felt like Cassandra, I was going to ministers, going, you know how the payday lenders, like, we've seen these guys, you've seen what they're doing, they're like, no, no, it's fine. I was like, no, no. And now it's a massive issue again. And the numbers of people who've got unsustainable buy now, pay later day is horrific. But it is a game of whack a mole. Another version of this stuff will be created because there'll always be a need.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes.

[Stella Creasy]

What I want to do, all we want to do is to cap the Costs of credit payday lending still exists in this country. Buy now, pay later will still exist in this country. It won't be as exploitative. So a cap is not a way of stopping lending, it's a way of slowing down the way in which these companies make search for their profits. We also need to do much more. I mean, the government's just announced a whole piece of work to expand credit unions and say, I weep for the fact. I think we've lost a decade where we had actually quite a good credit union movement in this country and it's falling apart. I would love to see us do things like. I would love to, I'd love the mayor of London, if you're watching Sadiq, to say that anybody who joins the London Credit Union could get a discount on London, London Transport, get money into that London credit union so it can lend out to London and we'll pay, we'll see the benefits back because it's a much more sustainable form of lending because the person who gets evicted still needs somewhere to live. Right. So we're all paying for that failure in that system. And you know, I've got people who've got little kids for whom they've not got into debt because they've been living a wild and crazy lifestyle. Like, you hear that story, whether it's like they're too stupid to know what they borrowed or it's because they're buying when buy now, play later came out, everyone kept saying, oh, it's just women buying shoes. It's like, no, no, people are buying pizzas to feed the kids on this stuff. If you haven't got money to feed your kids, something is going wrong in our society.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes, totally. And I, I think it's really important that point you make about that community side of this because. And I, I look at this from an investment point of view as well and in a kind of taxation point of view. If you, if there could be some way in which in your community you contribute to like credit unions, obviously, but, you know, other ways of contributing to investment as well. If it's businesses in the area who want credit, you know, there's lots of crowdfunding and things like that, but could be there are other types of bonds that are offered with businesses. Yeah. So just so you can see a

[Stella Creasy]

tangible thing, I see that inequality growing. So absolutely. I need more social housing to be built and my local authority actually is pretty good at that. But I also need our local businesses to have sticky money. So when people are coming into the area, the Money is staying in the area. Bluntly, I don't want Oliver Bonus moving into Walthamstow. I want to keep.

[Steph McGovern]

Who do you want said I like an Oliver Bonus?

[Stella Creasy]

Oh, no, no. You should come to Walthamstow, see our independent shops. The tat is of a superior quality.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

That is the best is getting from my local independent shops. My friends, they always say, but it's the mix because I also have Walthamstone market. Right. And the market traders are dealing with a whole range of challenges. But I keep trying to challenge people who do all the kind of trendy videos. It's like, come and come see what you can buy on the market because you might be surprised. You can buy a three piece suit and you can buy all these bananas for two quid and you can buy, you know, toys like it's heaving.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

Because what you want to do is keep money that's coming into the area in the money because it grows and grows and grows. Nobody wants an empty high street.

[Steph McGovern]

One other thing I want to ask you before you go is the, the other thing that's going on, which something that's happening to me as well, is AI being used to get people like me who talk about money all the time.

[Stella Creasy]

Yes.

[Steph McGovern]

These fake adverts. Martin Lewis gets it the most, obviously. But then, you know, I was sent one the other day, which was quite hilarious actually because AI cannot do a northeastern accent. So it's me and it's this setup. So someone's taken the video of me from here, but then put a cockney accent on me.

[Stella Creasy]

I mean, that is.

[Steph McGovern]

I know it's quite funny.

[Stella Creasy]

Is it like, do you also have like. It's like when you go and see Aber Voyage and you're like, this is incredible. Until you look at their fingers. And then I became really obsessed when I went to see it looking at their fingers because that's how you know it's not real.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, yeah. I didn't look at my fingers in this video.

[Stella Creasy]

No. You should go back and look at it.

[Steph McGovern]

But the accent was just the thing.

[Stella Creasy]

But.

[Steph McGovern]

But on a serious note, that's a big problem as well. Well, is how people do talk about.

[Stella Creasy]

And I had a very lovely elderly gentle in my community who'd seen on Facebook Keir Starmer apparently telling him to buy bitcoin. And he sent and was like, is this the right thing to do? The Prime Minister. And I was horrified. I had to try and get hold of the social media company to say like, can you pull it down?

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

And look that's one thing we need to talk about in this as well with the finfluencers, right? It's one thing these people, you know from Dubai making these videos, scamming people. But the social media companies themselves have a responsibility and of course they make money. The more people are looking at stuff and the more viral it goes as well. So there's a disincentive for them to do anything about it.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, that's a really good point because there'd be an easy way because in my head I'm thinking, right, so you, the punishment, you close them down, they don't have an account, they pop up somewhere else. But with all the facial recognition technology or whatever else now you could easily.

[Stella Creasy]

Well we have it, we have it with the online harm stuff where we have a concept called legal but harmful material. And at the moment obviously people are very focused on what it's doing to young people but actually the finfluence says they're affecting people of all ages and I think legal but harmful is quite a good way of thinking about this stuff. Like I want to see the online companies being much more proactive about taking these accounts down and recognizing where they are deliberately promoted. It's not accidental like I think obviously somebody gives you, I mean taking advice on the Internet is always a bit dubious. Like I take advice on makeup and it's like 5050 but like if it's with your financial advice, the finding somebody who you can trust and obviously you know Martin Lewis understandably is furious when people make videos because I look at his site, that's my modern equivalent to going to everyone's copies of which Magaz. Um, but also the social media companies should be much more proactive about this and we haven't really touched the sides. We've talked a lot about harmful sexual content, understandably harmful financial context is also I think somewhere where we should see more action from them.

[Steph McGovern]

Do you think there's anything else that could be happening in politics in terms of change in this?

[Stella Creasy]

Yes, I would love there to be somebody in government whose sole job it was to work out how to cut personal debt and to be somebody, a debt czar, somebody whose job it was to kind of go actually and particularly whether government policies might inadvertently in the way they're apply, particularly in local areas, push people into debt. I'm always frustrated when I see short sighted decision making that means that somebody's going to end up being able to not pay their rent because they've got a fine. You know, it's not because they should then get away with doing something that you think is, is wrong, like fly tipping. But it's like proportionate and working out how you manage that. And I think it's the same at a national level as well. Like the online world moves very quickly. Our legislation in tackling these things like payday loans, buy now, pay later. It just took too long. Yeah, I mean what I've been really over pleased with was with this of influencers going to the treasury from the get go they were like, yeah, this is right, something we should do.

[Steph McGovern]

Because you've done so well with the other things though. Do you think we've got her back?

[Stella Creasy]

She's back again.

[Steph McGovern]

So you might, you actually might be the debt seller without realizing it.

[Stella Creasy]

No, and I, no, I think, I mean somebody like Martin Lewis or somebody just spotting where, you know, because you do need, you need a level of sophistication to think across the piece and it's not the government can't do that. It's just because we're not asking someone to do it. We're not joining up the dots about say, well, what's happening in local government to what's happening maybe within the healthcare system. If you put those two together, actually we might get a better reward because pushing people into debt, we all end up paying the price eventually. And when you've got people like these common men and women, because there's women doing it too, somebody's going after them and someone's seeing that. It shouldn't take like MPs doing it. It should be something. I mean we get casework and I always look at my casework to see what's happening. But I just think that vision of the consumer and actually what's this doing to people's family finances should be something that we're asking every single government, government department.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, but don't they, are they not thinking that anywhere? Because I mean, Robert, I keep talking about growth and how there should be someone who's constantly saying, but will they see to growth if. Do we?

[Stella Creasy]

I mean, I guess I'm asking for the flip side question. It's like, what's it going to cost you? Yeah, like I just think we need that person who can work across government and just pick up things like this because it's, it's the. I think the thing about financial advice is it's so ubiquitous nobody'd really thought about what damage it could be doing. Like it's almost too obvious.

[Steph McGovern]

I still come back to education though, with schools, they've got to You've got to have kids leaving school armed with financial needs.

[Stella Creasy]

Absolutely. But if you haven't got the money, you haven't got the money and somebody is going to come along and tell you there might be a way to at least save some money. Like that is human nature.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah. Well, there we are. Right. Have you got any kind of optimism to leave us on?

[Stella Creasy]

Well, the law is going to go through.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

So you've got it through like. Like Kevin Costner in the Untouchables. When these people get a knock on their door and I hope it sends a strong message about don't rip off the British public.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah. How do you deal, by the way? You get from people about what?

[Stella Creasy]

You can't ban my mother from being online, but she. I say that and my mum gets very upset.

[Steph McGovern]

You get really serious stuff, don't you?

[Stella Creasy]

I do. And what I would say more seriously is I am really worried that we are edging towards somebody else getting hurt and I've lost two of my colleagues. Like the. You can just feel it out there. That attitude that you saw in the manosphere and it's on left and right. This is not a right wing thing, it's not a left wing thing. There is just a curdling culture that, like, somebody deserves a kicking for what's going on right now and who's it gonna going to be? And I would say that the police and parliament just is not thinking at all about what it's like, because it's like it's not over one particular issue. It's just the automatic presumption now is like, you're a politician, you're probably lying to me, you don't want to do anything good. And I say that for. You know, most people in most political parties are trying to do something because they came into politics for the right reasons, not disagree about what they want to do, but they are trying to do something. The culture, you can feel it.

[Steph McGovern]

It's an antitrust thing as well, isn't it? It's just people think that the media and politicians are trying.

[Stella Creasy]

I've had loads of kickback from people about this, about people saying, yeah, well, you're going to misuse our taxes anyway, so why should we pay them?

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Stella Creasy]

And you're like, this person is mugging you off and mugging the NHS off living in Dubai and you are paying the price because the NHS needs proper investment and you're the one who's going to get a knock on the door from the tax man. So as much as you can get across with me. I'm going to focus on the person who's causing the real harm here.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, that's not the optimistic end. I was free.

[Stella Creasy]

What is optimistic?

[Steph McGovern]

Chocolate and crisps and popcorn.

[Stella Creasy]

Exactly.

[Steph McGovern]

Popcorn's really nice too.

[Stella Creasy]

Oh, no, that's a step too far.

[Steph McGovern]

You're a purist.

[Stella Creasy]

No. Well, I can, I can go for sweet popcorn in the suit. In the suit. In the cinema when I have because I haven't seen a grown up film for six years now. But I go and watch all the terrible children's films for. Asleep? Yep, asleep in a big bag of popcorn. I'm quite happy.

[Steph McGovern]

Well, that's where I discovered when I accidentally dropped the popcorn in my chocolate ice cream that they work quite well together.

[Stella Creasy]

It get soggy?

[Steph McGovern]

No, I don't. If you eat it straight away. Anyway. Right. We're. We're waffling. Stella, lovely to have you here. Thank you so much for coming in. That's it for me on the rest is money. Bye. Bye.

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