279. Why SMEs want more than verbal enthusiasm from politicians

Summary

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The Rest Is Money – Episode 279

Title: Why SMEs Want More Than Verbal Enthusiasm from Politicians
Hosts: Robert Peston & Steph McGovern
Date: May 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the persistent challenges faced by small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) in British manufacturing—particularly in defense contracting. Hosts Robert Peston and Steph McGovern spotlight Buffalo Systems, an outdoor clothing manufacturer in Sheffield, whose new owners—TV adventurer Ben Fogle and Savile Row tailor/former banker James Slater—have struggled to secure meaningful governmental contracts despite widespread political “verbal enthusiasm.” The episode dives deep into procurement, the systemic bias in favor of larger or cheaper overseas suppliers, and the real-world impact of such choices on local jobs, skills, and industrial innovation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: UK Defense Procurement & SME Support

• (03:21–06:08) Robert sets context: The UK’s Ministry of Defence (MOD) spends around £30 billion a year, supporting approx. 151,000 manufacturing jobs. Officially, 40%–69% of MOD contracts go to UK suppliers, depending on definitions (“British” as HQ vs. local subsidiary).
• Government Pledges: Big ambitions to increase SME contracts by 50% by May 2028 (target: £7.5bn annual spend), but SMEs report a persistent disconnect between political rhetoric and action.

The Buffalo Systems Story: Passion Meets Structural Obstacles

• (06:08–08:15) Steph introduces Buffalo: Durable, UK-made outdoor clothing, strong reputation with mountaineers, police, and military. Once had big MOD contracts—now squeezed by cheaper imports and structural disadvantages.
• New Ownership: Ben Fogle and James Slater bought the business motivated by a mix of passion and potential for responsible growth.

Business Model, Manufacturing, and Skills

• No E-commerce Until Recently:

  "It didn't have a transactional website, which is mad."
  —James Slater (09:48)

• Commitment to Sheffield:

  "How do we make a profit and how do we grow, keeping manufacturing in Sheffield, which is a commitment we've made?"
  —Ben Fogle (10:07, 11:57)

• Skills Shortage:

  "I really want to shine a light on the skills that go into making jackets. So many youngsters are so mesmerized by becoming a social media influencer or working in AI… We're forgetting about skills that use our hands."
  —Ben Fogle (13:12) "I don't think AI can replace hand skills…"
  —James Slater (14:20)

The Reality of Financing and Cashflow

• Self-Funded, Avoiding VC Debt:

  "We could have sought VC money… but then we’d be beholden to someone else... we're making the decisions."
  —James Slater (17:48)

• Cash Flow Swings:
  "We're a small and medium enterprise. Our cash flow is always going to have those ebbs and flows.”
  —James Slater (18:15)
• Losing MOD Contracts:
  "Buffalo lost the contract decades ago because we lost it to a cheaper overseas version. It was a fraction of the cost but also a fraction of the quality."
  —Ben Fogle (18:38)

Procurement and “Verbal Enthusiasm” from Politicians

• No Centralized MOD Contract:

  "We have no official contracts currently. We supply to Special Forces … but no regular [centralized] ones."
  —Ben Fogle (19:35)

• False Dichotomy of Savings:

  "If the MOD realized they might have to spend 25% more on a jacket, but all that money stays in the UK and trickles down… that makes a lot more sense than a 25% cheaper version going to overseas production."
  —Ben Fogle (19:54)

• "Verbal Enthusiasm":

  "The signs are good as in, we have verbal, verbal enthusiasm. That's not good."
  —Ben Fogle (27:32)
  "I feel like everyone gets verbal enthusiasm from politicians."
  —Robert Peston (27:42)

The Chicken-and-Egg of Scaling

• Barriers to Scalability:

  "If we were to, let's say, every single member of the armed forces receive a Buffalo… we would need… a digitized cutting machine [cost: £250k]... We're reliant on having the order."
  —James Slater (25:35)

• Police Procurement Easier: Local police contracts—decentralized—allow more direct sales compared to MOD’s centralized system. (24:12–25:25)

Technology and Modernization

• Unlocking Productivity:

  "By putting in technology, digital pattern making… digital cutting machines… technology can give us a lot of those unlocks."
  —James Slater (33:46)

• Still, Core Process Human:

  "You can't remove… hours that one person can give and a jacket takes X amount of hours. We can't necessarily speed up that part of the production…"
  —James Slater (34:43)

Broader Lessons: Government Risk Aversion & Value Judgments

• Systemic Risk Aversion:

  "Officials either go for the brand they know, often an American brand, or they try to do it in-house and they're just very wary of British small businesses."
  —Robert Peston (39:28)

• Cost vs. Strategic Value:

  "Should the government pay more for stuff, for jobs, money, investment in the UK, or should they go for the cheapest to save the public purse? That's the other dilemma here."
  —Steph McGovern (42:30)

The Pragmatic Reality for SMEs like Buffalo

• Growth potential is real, but constrained by capital, orders, and modernization needs.
• Rising costs (energy, labor, imported components) present constant threats to margins and viability.
• Local supply chains critical for resilience—but not always possible.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-------------------|-------| | 06:08 | Steph McGovern | "…they refer to it as the verbal enthusiasm. So this point about politicians are saying the right things but they're just not following through with any actual solid contracts being signed or whatever else." | | 15:01 | Ben Fogle | "…we made a commitment to John and Sue, from whom we bought the business, that we would keep manufacturing certainly our core items in Sheffield. And...we are men of our word and it's not easy…" | | 14:20 | James Slater | "I don't think AI can replace hand skills…" | 18:38 | Ben Fogle | "Buffalo lost the contract...because we lost it to a cheaper overseas version. It was a fraction of the cost but also a fraction of the quality." | | 20:02 | Ben Fogle | "…if our various departments of government actually spoke to one another, then the Ministry of Defense, when it comes to procurement, if they realize that they might have to spend 25% more on a jacket, but all that money stays in the UK and trickles down… that makes a lot more sense…" | | 25:35 | James Slater | "I think there's barriers to scalability… we would need to have also in place things like a digitized cutting machine… £250,000." | | 27:32 | Ben Fogle | "The signs are good, as in, we have verbal, verbal enthusiasm. That's not good." | | 27:42 | Robert Peston | "I feel like everyone gets verbal enthusiasm from politicians." | | 39:28 | Robert Peston | "Officials...either go for the brand they know...or they try and do it in house and they're just very wary of British small businesses." | | 42:30 | Steph McGovern | "Should the government pay more for stuff, for jobs, money, investment in the UK, or should they go for the cheapest to save the public purse?" |

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:21–06:08 – Context on MOD spending, British manufacturing, and SME contract challenges.
• 06:08–08:15 – Introduction to Buffalo Systems’ history and business.
• 10:07–13:39 – Details on manufacturing in Sheffield, skills retention, and technology gaps.
• 15:01–19:26 – Finances, personal commitment, loss of MOD contracts, and pragmatic business pressures.
• 24:01–25:25 – Localized procurement with police—the contrast with MOD approach.
• 25:35–27:32 – Scaling obstacles, equipment investment, and the chicken-and-egg dilemma.
• 27:32–28:01 – “Verbal enthusiasm” from government vs. real action.
• 39:28–42:30 – Robert and Steph recap: broader issues of government risk aversion, value for money vs. strategic national investment, and American-style policies versus UK approach.

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Analysis & Final Insights

• Structural Barriers: Despite government rhetoric and declared targets for increased SME involvement, systemic inertia, risk aversion, cost-minimization, and centralized buying stymie the ambitions of businesses like Buffalo.
• Jobs and Regional Growth at Stake: Many opportunities to revitalize local industry and preserve skilled trades are lost when procurement defaults to the lowest global bidder.
• Modernization Is Essential But Costly: SMEs need capital and confidence in enduring demand before investing in expensive production technology—government support (in word and deed) is critical for this leap.
• The Value of Quality: The Buffalo case shows military professionals sometimes prefer to buy superior UK-made kit out of pocket—suggesting that value (and not just price) matters on the front line.

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Conclusion

This episode is a revealing look into the daily realities and frustrations of British SME manufacturers struggling to scale in a procurement system that pays lip service to “supporting British industry” but doesn’t back it with contracts or practical help. Fogle and Slater’s story illustrates both the romance and the high stakes of trying to keep skilled manufacturing alive in the UK—and the broad economic and social consequences when government support stops at “verbal enthusiasm.”

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For listeners seeking more:
The Rest Is Money, with Robert Peston & Steph McGovern, continues to probe the real-world impacts of policy, procurement, and business trends in the UK.

Transcript

[Ben Fogle]

How can we grow the business and champion British manufacturing?

[James Slater]

The world's in a difficult place and the more the supply chain is kept local, it is easier. It's not always possible.

[Ben Fogle]

How do we make a profit and how do we grow? Keeping manufacturing in Sheffield, which is a commitment we've made completely random.

[Steph McGovern]

Even though they've had loads of love from John Healey, the Defence Secretary, they're in his constituency that it's just not following through. So should the government pay more for stuff or should they go for the cheapest to save the public purse? That's the other dilemma here.

[Robert Peston]

Support for this episode comes from Octopus Energy and the founder and CEO Greg Jackson is with us now. And I want to ask about oil prices. Obviously, they're very high at the moment. What's your advice for a company worried about them?

[Greg Jackson]

First of all, if you use a lot of electricity, it may be possible to get electricity tariffs where you get charged less at certain times of day. And a lot of businesses have been able to benefit by shifting their electricity consumption. They still use as much energy, they just pay less for it. Of course, things like heating space can be very expensive and finding ways to do that more efficiently by heating to maybe 18 degrees rather than 21 can make a very big difference. But of course, look, the real solution is that Britain needs to escape from this dependence on the global fossil fuel price and that means more electrification, disconnect our electricity price from the gas price and ultimately get more of electricity from British resources.

[Robert Peston]

Nice one, Greg. Thanks for explaining that. Right, we're gonna go to the episode

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[Robert Peston]

Hello and welcome to the Rest is

[Robert Peston (continued)]

Money with me Steph McGovern and with me Robert Perston.

[Steph McGovern]

Now today we're talking about defence, specifically about a business that thinks the government don't know what they're doing when it comes to supporting small and medium sized UK defence manufacturers. ACTRESS so before we get into that interview though, Robert, I think it's just worth reminding everyone what the government has said. What have they promised when it comes to defense spending? Because we know that this is a big deal in terms of how much, you know, budget's been allocated to defense spending. But just set the scene a bit for us, Robert.

[Robert Peston (continued)]

Yeah, well, look, I mean the point is that the mod is a huge supporter of British businesses, particularly British manufacturing. These are round numbers, but the MoD is responsible for about 30 billion pounds of procurement, of equipment, of parts, of logistics. I think it itself believes that it supports something like 151,000 manufacturing jobs, which is, you know, in the context of a British manufacturing center that has been shrinking all our lives is not unimportant. There are big questions about how much of that actually goes to British businesses though. On One estimate, the EY estimate, they believe that, that almost 69% of the contracts with the private sector go to UK suppliers. But tussle says, which produces another estimate, that it's only 40 to 45%. And it's all about how you define British and I mean broadly when you're thinking about British. I think Tussle goes with those that have got their headquarters in the UK rather than just subsidiaries or joint ventures or all the rest of it. But so it's somewhere between, I don't know, just under a half and about two thirds stays in Britain. The mot, however, has recognized, along with the entire government that they've got to do much more to support smaller businesses as well as British businesses. And They've got an aim of increasing the business they put with SME small and medium sized enterprises by 50% within I think a couple of years. By May 2028 they want the amount to seven and a half billion. But the fundamental point as I think you've been talking about is this is just another example where even though they've got these big ambitions, I mean, we've heard this so often from British businesses, they just say the British government doesn't know how to effectively support homegrown manufacturing, that they favor overseas businesses too much and they favor bigger businesses too much. But what have you been looking at, Steph?

[Steph McGovern]

Well, exactly that. So it's interesting because you know, the interview you're about to hear, they refer to it as the verbal enthusiasm. So this point about politicians are saying the right things but they're just not following through with any actual solid contracts being signed or whatever else. Obviously, you know, when we talk to the Ministry of Defense about this, they were quick to tell us that they've signed nearly 1200 major contracts with 93 going to UK companies. But over the next 10 years, you know, they've got all these big ambitions and everything else, but really when you talk to business owners, they just think the government are over promising. So this particular business that you, you're going to hear from now is called Buffalo Systems. Now you might be someone who owns one of their jackets, but this is an outdoor clothing manufacturer started in the 1970s. You know, they specialize in that kind of durable clothing worn by the police and the military, but also by, you know, Mountaineers and Ramblers and so on. And I would class it as one of those heritage brands like Barber or Bell Staff. You know, the clothes are proudly manufactured in Sheff Field. It's a labor intensive process. You know, it's not necessarily an industry where we've seen great strides in terms of how they're using technology. So it's expensive and you know, unsurprisingly, this is a business that struggled against the imported cheaper clothes that have come in. And because of that they've lost big MOD contracts over the years. But now this business, Buffalo Systems, has been bought by a TV adventurer and a tailor, which might sound completely random. So it's, I know, so it's, it's Ben Fogle who I'm sure many of you have seen on the telly, and James Slater who's a kind of Savile Row Taylor because they've got this big dream about, you know, making this 100 million pound business getting this mod contract, but they're saying it is just so hard. Even though they've had loads of love from John Healey, the Defense Secretary, they're in his constituency, that it's just not following through. So here is my interview with Ben Fogle and James Slater.

[Robert Peston]

So, first of all, can you explain to me then, I don't know whether one of you wants to handle this or you do it between yourselves, but what is this business you've taken on?

[James Slater]

Buffalo is an outdoor brand set up in 1979. Was born from a madcap guy who used to invent things, but most importantly was an avid outdoorsman. And he was just solving the problem that he faced, that he couldn't get good kit to serve the function he needed. 40, 50 years later, we're somehow at the. At the charge of it.

[Robert Peston]

Yeah. So why.

[Steph McGovern]

What.

[Robert Peston]

What made you want to get involved in this?

[James Slater]

There's a few things. Occasionally you find a business that you think, why is it in the position it's in? And Buffalo wasn't a failing business by any stretch of the imagination, but it used to share the same premises. Can I name check other companies here? It was used to be in the same premises as rab. Rab is an outdoor brand that anybody going to rugby seems to be wearing. Rab. And they were in the same premises at Buffalo. And at one point, Buffalo was significantly bigger than RAB. RAB's now, I think, doing 120 million in turnover and Buffalo is. We're a fraction of that. And so you look at a business like that and you think to yourself, I'd love to get to 100 million plus, but, you know, how do we. How do we put it on this course of growth, and not growth at any cost, but growth that's done in a sort of considered way without just sort of chasing growth for growth's sake. You know, we want to do this, you know, responsibly. And so really, Buffalo, for us was this amazing opportunity for personal reasons as well as well as business. And it was just a gem that there were a few metrics in the business that we could change. So, for example, it didn't have a transactional website, which is mad. You know, if you're in the business,

[Robert Peston]

there's no E commerce.

[James Slater]

No E commerce at all. So if you're in the business of making a product, the most important thing is to sell it.

[Robert Peston]

Yeah.

[James Slater]

And if you can't sell it on your own website or through your own shops, how do you do it? It's pretty difficult and can you tell

[Robert Peston]

me a bit about what the background in terms of this is in Sheffield, isn't it?

[James Slater]

Yeah.

[Robert Peston]

So everything manufactured in Sheffield?

[Ben Fogle]

Yeah. So as James said it, it was invented by this, this man, Hamish Hamilton, in 1979, and really beloved of the mountaineering community and the army. They got some early contracts with the military, they started supplying it as regular kit to the army. And, you know, some of your listeners now are like, this is just an outdoor jacket. What are you talking about? So a buffalo, let's be very clear, is a very, very unique proposition. It's called the Double P system. So what Hamish invented was this, a double layered system. It's got an outer layer which is a material called Pertex, and then it has a pile liner. So the weird thing about our jackets is they're not waterproof. And a lot of people might go, that's a pretty rubbish idea. You're not very good businessman buying an outdoor jacket that isn't waterproof, but it's water resistant. And the key to it is that this, this pile liner wicks away all the moisture from your skin. And even if you get soaking wet, which a lot of people do when they're out and about, it keeps you dry, whatever the conditions, and it's super fast drying. So when he invented this, we actually went to see the family, the Hamiltons, he has sadly passed away. He passed away a few years ago, but we went to see his family and they said when he invented this that they actually got like, not death threats. That's something that happens now. But they got people coming up and accusing them of having a dad who was putting people's lives at risk because it was so out there, this design. Everyone was like, no, it's all about layering and you need a water proof outer layer and then you'll wear a fleece underneath. That's the, the system. But he doggedly pursued this and as the years have gone on, the army were like, oh, this is quite good. Then Mountain Rescue thought, oh, this is good. Special Forces thought the same. And this business for 40 plus years has kind of has made amazing business. We supply to special forces in, in Denmark and in Norway, all around the world, but very few people have actually heard of this brand. And yes, in answer to your question, it's made in Sheffield. It's always been made in Sheffield. Entirely 100% manufactured in Sheffield. Our factory is in the heart of the city in an old dairy. And that, as I have discovered over the last year, is our biggest challenge. How do we Make a profit and how do we grow, keeping manufacturing in Sheffield, which is a commitment we've made.

[Robert Peston]

Any clothing manufacturers I've been to, and I've been to quite a few over the years, you know, like the David Neeper factory. And like you say, when you go in, there's a lot of. It's many women actually making the garments there. It's, you know, on sewing machines and pattern cuts and everything else. Similarly, when I've been to shoe manufacturers, the thing they all struggle with is, is skills.

[James Slater]

Yeah.

[Robert Peston]

And also just that, that need for speed, the, you know, meeting demand and the change in technology and then pricing and everything else. Are you facing the same problems?

[Ben Fogle]

One of the things that I want to do as a, as a public figure and we've made a film, we've made a documentary series about our first year, I really want to shine a light on the skills that go into making jackets. I think so many youngsters are so mesmerized by the idea of becoming a social media influencer or working in AI and tech. We're forgetting about skills that use our hands.

[Robert Peston]

But is there money in it and is there a career in it? Because the thing is, you know, you paint this really lovely picture, this romanticized view of all these artists working together. But then if you've got a factory in China producing something, there is a pressure of cheaper.

[James Slater]

Of course, we could source this garment we made overseas and it would cost us a fraction of what it does by making it in the uk. But to name check one of our members of staff, Tracey's worked at Buffalo for 40 years and the ability that we have to pass on her skill and her knowledge onto these young team, you know, it's amazing and it's something that we definitely feel, you know, so passionately about retaining that skill.

[Robert Peston]

Is AI not going to replace that?

[James Slater]

I don't think AI can replace hand skills. I think AI is going to put a lot of pressure on a lot of jobs and a lot of. I read a stat the other day that, you know, the big four accountancy firms have reduced their graduate intake By I think 20, 25%. You know, those jobs are going to be at risk. Someone who's going to be at a machine is learning a skill that I don't think at this point AI could, you know, is developing at such a rapid rate, isn't it? But at the moment we cannot produce these garments using AI. We don't want to at this point, of course, make these things using AI. We want to protect those jobs. We Want to create jobs. We want to give these people, you know, a career, a skill, a trade. Because I think that's, that's the best way of guaranteeing the future.

[Ben Fogle]

And, you know, I think James and I, we made a commitment to John and Sue, from whom we bought the business, that we would keep manufacturing certainly our core items in Sheffield. And, you know, we're men of our word and it's not easy and we could, as James has already said, we could be making a lot more profit if it was overseas. But it's kind of not the point. I know it sounds odd. We are businessmen, by the way. This is not a complete folly.

[Robert Peston]

Yeah.

[Ben Fogle]

You know, I've, we have both invested a lot of money in this. I have my. I see my wife looking at me now. She's not actually physically in the room, but she's always present in my mind, you know, this can't fail.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Ben Fogle]

So we have this, we have this juggling act of how, of how can we grow the business and champion British manufacturing and support our legacy staff and not make dramatic changes that are really scary. You know, when two Southerners come in and we suddenly, you know, go up to Sheffield and go, hello. Where you're. Where you're. I don't even like using the word boss. You know, we're, we're the new bosses here. It's, it's been a really, for me, it's been a really steep learning curve.

[Robert Peston]

Yes. Because how do you get that balance right? Because I get it. You know, I started my career in manufacturing up in the Northeast working for Black and Decker. It ended up the factory there moved out to, to Europe, to Eastern Europe where it was much cheaper to make the products and then China and, and so on and so forth. So I have a real love of it. But it is getting more and more expensive, isn't it?

[James Slater]

For sure it is.

[Robert Peston]

So, you know, energy. I mean, I'm sure we'll come on to all these things. We've mentioned skills.

[James Slater]

There's obviously national insurance contribution rates, relief reductions.

[Ben Fogle]

We haven't gone for big VC capitally self funded.

[Robert Peston]

Have you taken on any debt for it?

[Ben Fogle]

There have been moments when our accountant, the amazing afi, has called me and said, ben, we have a problem. What are we going to do about this? And the figures sound quite big and large to me and quite scary. And that's, that's where I've really valued having James as a business partner. Because I take. Listen, I, my risks are when I go and climb Mount Everest, I look at the the land around me. I look at the weather patterns and I've got my teammates and I've done my own due diligence. This is a slightly different proposition. It doesn't mean I haven't done my due diligence, but I'm relying a lot on James's knowledge. So when our accountant calls and says, ben, we've got this big problem. We've got a six figure deficit now, I don't know if that's the correct way to do it, but it's been higher than that. I call James and he goes, I'm on it. Trust me on this one. Because I think you have a bigger, you have a very good way of seeing the financial future more than I

[James Slater]

do, and also having, I guess, faith in the process that any business is going to have those cash ebbs and flows. You know, you're going to have a big rate bill that comes at the same time as paying your VAT bill the same, same day that you've got to pay salary. So all of a sudden you're like, by Friday we need to have X amount of pounds in the bank account. And you're like, well, currently we're short on it. Yeah, well, we know that on Wednesday we're launching our spring summer product and all of a sudden then you get that tingle of pennies back into the covers that mean you can make.

[Robert Peston]

So your cash flow is basically, we're

[James Slater]

a small and medium enterprise. Yeah. So our cash flow is always going to be, is going to have those ebbs and flows. And, and that's, that's the, that's the challenge. We could have, as Ben said, we could have sought VC money. We could have had a couple of million pounds in the bank account to steady the ship and maybe make us sleep easier at night, but then we'd be beholden someone else. Whereas we're making the decisions in this and we're sort of guaranteeing it.

[Ben Fogle]

And what that means, Steph, is that we can be much more creative and agile with our approach. So as an example, and I know you led with procurement at the beginning of this, so we were once very much an army brand. Any former current future soldiers, anyone in the military, in fact listening to this will know Buffalo. Yeah, we're much beloved. We, Buffalo lost the contract, gosh, decades ago because we lost it to a cheaper overseas version. It was a fraction of the cost but also a fraction of the quality. So actually a lot of our customers are regulars in the military who are willing to spend their own money buying a Superior product.

[Robert Peston]

To use.

[Ben Fogle]

Yes, to use. So they will use it at work. Yeah. So they will come.

[Robert Peston]

And they paid for that themselves.

[Ben Fogle]

And they have paid for that themselves. Correct. So we actually, we reached out to a local MP who also happens to be the Secretary of Defense. John Healy.

[Robert Peston]

Yes.

[Ben Fogle]

And, and over the course of many months, sort of had chats with him and his team about our role and the military. Because we have no official contracts currently. We, we supply to the Special Forces. Probably not even supposed to be saying that, but, you know, we, we have a lot of semi private orders with military establishments, but no regular ones. So no centralized, no centralized one.

[Robert Peston]

Right.

[Ben Fogle]

But we want to, we would love to get into that. I, I often describe myself as financially illiterate, but I can see, I, I, I actually am learning a lot more about finances. And it's very obvious to me that if our various departments of government actually spoke to one another, then the Ministry of Defense, when it comes to procurement, if they realize that they might have to spend 25% more on a jacket, but all that money stays in the UK and trickles down because it's going to the textiles, to the makers, to the rent, all of those things. That makes a lot more sense than 100% of the 25% cheaper version going to overseas production.

[Robert Peston]

But the argument would be that 25 could be used for something else, like

[Steph McGovern]

a, I don't know, a weapon or whatever it is. And, you know, maybe, you know, the focus should be on that rather than what it does.

[Ben Fogle]

You're right. But then, then we're hearing another briefing from the Chancellor or from the local government up in Sheffield and South Yorkshire who are telling us, no, we very much want to champion British manufacturing and we want to bring these derelict buildings back. Because I, I see it like we, we have the potential. We small, I'm not building us up like we're massive, but we have the potential to occupy derelict buildings in the city center that are a bit of an eyesore. We have the potential to bring in apprentices. We have the potential to hire more staff and to open a shop and to kind of put a little bit of buzz back into what is already a very vibrant city. But it feels like when it comes to procurement and when it comes to the government level, one hand is not speaking to the other.

[Robert Peston]

And to get that, though, they would

[Steph McGovern]

have to pay more for the product.

[Robert Peston]

That's the point.

[James Slater]

More than if we were to, if they were to source a similar product that's made in China. Yeah.

[Robert Peston]

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[Robert Peston]

We've talked about this on the podcast before where businesses, particularly small ones, seem to be able to do quite well on a local level. And it sounds like that's exactly the

[Steph McGovern]

sit you've had with Buffalo.

[Robert Peston]

It becomes much more difficult when it's that big centralized system. Is that what you're saying is the

[James Slater]

problem then that you're I guess it's also slightly different. We supply most of the police forces.

[Robert Peston]

Right.

[James Slater]

You know if you go and it's that local contracts with each in each individual team.

[Robert Peston]

Yeah.

[James Slater]

Or police force can can purchase separately.

[Robert Peston]

So it's not a centralized force.

[James Slater]

Some are centralized so the army would be largely centralized contracts. The police are buying through individual police forces. Or they'll use like a centralized purchasing body that will buy from us and then sell into the police. So on the police, there's two different.

[Robert Peston]

Right.

[James Slater]

Two different routes. For the. For the. For the military example, a naval warship bought from us directly where the. The crew of the ship paid for 50% and the ship's own funds paid for the other 50%.

[Robert Peston]

So hang on a minute. The crew themselves paid half the cost for their. Essentially their uniform.

[Ben Fogle]

That's how much they love the jackets. Steph. Ye.

[Steph McGovern]

Right.

[James Slater]

I wish you'd sell to customers.

[Robert Peston]

They need you on the shop floor, don't they?

[James Slater]

Yeah.

[Robert Peston]

So, okay, and then you said the other half was paid for out of the funds from the ship, which is essentially MOD money, then.

[James Slater]

Yeah.

[Robert Peston]

So what's the problem with getting the. Because you want a bigger contract, as I'm sure there are lots of businesses in the UK desperate for. What's stopping you getting it, then?

[James Slater]

I think there's barriers to scalability. You know, if we were to, let's say, every single member of the armed forces receive a buffalo, which would be the dream we would need to have also in place things like a digitized cutting machine. That's a capital expenditure of the business that would say, cost us £250,000. So those sorts of things. You know, that one machine, we're reliant on having the order. So some of it's chicken and egg.

[Robert Peston]

Yeah.

[James Slater]

Of do we buy a machine?

[Robert Peston]

As things stand, you couldn't meet if an order came in tomorrow saying every single soldier we want.

[James Slater]

Where there's a will, there's a way. Where there's a will, there's a way. But everything is a calculated rule, risk. Do we buy that machine on spec or do we try and get the contract and then we can get the machine delivered pretty quickly and put in pretty quickly. But we have to choose where we're spending our pounds and our pennies and where we think we're going to receive the most realistic growth. We'd love one of those big centralized contracts. We are currently working, as Ben said, with Jonathan Healey's department to try and secure this.

[Robert Peston]

He spoke very positively about you, hasn't he?

[Ben Fogle]

And it's very fortunate because he, a massive champion of South Yorkshire and. And recognizes the value that businesses like ours bring to the city of Sheffield and. And the Yorkshire diaspora generally. And he has. He's spoken well. I mean, it was great. When he came up, all his close protection officers were all wearing our jackets anyway, because they got it. So in some ways we're preaching to the converted. But still, when it comes to the procurement process for us, for a relatively small company, it, it's not easy. I mean, it's, it's bamboozling. When you. The size of.

[James Slater]

Sometimes it's easy just to go to a centralized sourcing body and they source you the jackets, the shoes, the boots, the socks. We're just, we're providing just one element. We make other things other than jackets and shirts and trousers and all these sorts of things. But, you know, sometimes they'll just go to a centralized body that will provide everything.

[Robert Peston]

So what are they saying to you when you're saying, give us a contract.

[Ben Fogle]

The signs are good, as in, we have verbal, verbal enthusiasm. That's not good. Well, there you go.

[Robert Peston]

I feel like everyone gets verbal enthusiasm from politicians.

[Ben Fogle]

Yes.

[Robert Peston]

Because they're not going to say, nah, your business is rubbish. We don't want you, we don't want to help you.

[Ben Fogle]

Yeah, exactly. And that's what it is. And so we get verbal enthusiasm. And you and I will know, you know, there's, there's a lot of, especially, you know, a lot of people say what they think you want to hear when they're in the room.

[James Slater]

I believe they want to keep the pounds in this country, but to do so would be great to have not an envoy from them, but for someone to sort of sit down with us and say, right, these are the metrics. These are the things that we need to get in place to do because we can do it.

[Ben Fogle]

And by the way, I'm just thinking about your comment you said earlier, you know, if they're spending 25% less on a jacket, that gives them an extra 25% to spend on other things. Well, actually, I kind of disagree a little bit because I think we owe our armed forces the very best kit that they can have. And if they're willing to actually come and buy our jackets out of their own pocket. Yeah. From very minimal salaries anyway, that they're getting. Something's going wrong there because they feel they need extra protection. They're not getting. I'm not going to go into the whole detail, but that's a general sentiment. Is that.

[Robert Peston]

I mean, but you would say that, wouldn't you, as the owner of the brand?

[Ben Fogle]

No, you're right.

[Robert Peston]

But do we need it to be the best or we do we need it to just be. Well, I do the job.

[James Slater]

I don't know if you're life on the line. I think you've got it. You've got to provide.

[Ben Fogle]

You know, we're talking about fighting in Arctic.

[Steph McGovern]

Know enough about.

[Ben Fogle]

Yeah.

[Robert Peston]

The clothing and of, you know, our military.

[Ben Fogle]

No, you're, and you're quite right. I could sound like I'm just a, you know, I'm hungry for publicity now by bigging up the jacket. But I, I think, I think our customers speak for themselves. Just, you know, the fact that we are the chosen jacket for most of the mountain rescuers, not all of them, lots of them do choose other jackets because we really are fit for, we are a unique. It's not just about choosing the brand. It's, it's a totally different system. And, and I personally, as, as a proud taxpayer in this, my money to go towards giving the very best products that we can to our military and training them up to the very best of their abilities. And, and if our jackets allow that to happen, then I, I think it should be part of regular kit.

[Robert Peston]

So as things stand, you've got this verbal enthusiasm, as you call it.

[Ben Fogle]

Sounds really terrible when you describe it like that.

[Robert Peston]

How, how long have you had that verbal enthusiasm for? What's the next step?

[James Slater]

Because I think this is the end of the documentary. Was it about four or five weeks ago?

[Robert Peston]

the same time as you've got this going on, it's also we're hearing from, you know, from the Labour government that they have got this task force now around small businesses in defense. Obviously we've all heard about the extra money that's going into defense. Like this is the time to be a business in defense, I think. And you know, know when we've spoken to the MOD, they've talked about since 2024 how they've given nearly 1200 contracts to small businesses in the U.K. they say 93%, I think, of, of the spend over the next 10 years is going to be U.K. companies. Do you believe them?

[James Slater]

You want to believe, you know, if, if take it out of our sphere, right? If, if we have a boat built in France that's, that's making French jobs jobs, that's putting money into the French economy. We need to maintain that in the uk. So all we can do is play some belief. Hopefully it's not foolhardy belief. And our side of that bargain is we have to sort of keep banging that drum. But, you know, it would have been great if there'd been more follow up. We could be guilty of not following up enough perhaps. But, you know, we need that task force to be going out to all these British businesses, not just Buffalo, but to go out to. I met with a bag supplier that's making bag kits for drone operators to Go out to all of these companies to keep these skills in the uk, to keep these businesses, these small, medium enterprise businesses are the backbone, I believe, of the British economy. I used to be a banker in a previous life and I'm a manufacturer and that's where I want to be spending my time and beliefs.

[Robert Peston]

So how do you. Because the way you describe your business, you know, I love the, the passion and the heart and everything else that's going into it. The fact, you know, you're not taking money out of it yet and stuff. But how do you make it look that it's, it's a legitimate business that's good and efficient for the UK economy and not a social enterprise. And you guys doing this to. I don't know. I know you.

[James Slater]

Yeah, but I mean, yeah, don't, don't confuse it with, with charity. We're not winning.

[Robert Peston]

That's what my point is because it's got to be legitimate because there's not many people like you guys.

[James Slater]

Business has to be a going concern. The business has to make money and, and Ben have invested our own money in this and at some point, obviously we need to have some return on that, whether that's the intrinsic value of the business or that in 12 months time or 24 months time, 3 years, 5 years. Tell Marina the bad news that we're going to get away, that we're going to get something back out of it. Yeah, we're not, we're not being sort of, you know, hubristic and too charitable. Of course we want to have the ability just to do things in the right way. And some of that is, is the support from government to have centralized contracts and some of that's us educating the consumer as to why they should buy brand Britain, why you should want to buy a jacket made in the UK

[Robert Peston]

and what's your kind of split in terms of what you export and what you sell here?

[James Slater]

Most of it's still for the UK market. There's a huge amount of demand though, from Japan, from the us, from some other military teams around the world. Those other countries I mentioned were individuals buying. We're actually very governed by the amount we can produce. If you went on our website two weeks ago, we had very little in stock because the demand since we bought the business, since we turned the website on has sort of taken us by surprise. So now we're sort of going back into, guys, we need to be more productive, we need to produce more and asking more of the team.

[Robert Peston]

So what's going to solve that is that going to be technology.

[James Slater]

Technology is a huge thing. So as I said, I'm a, you know, Savoy Taylor and you think, well, that's devoid of all technology. That one of the first things I did in my bespoke tailoring company was use technology. And that was one of the things that hadn't been in some ways Buffalo when we bought the business was set up more like a bespoke tailor than a traditional factory. So by putting in technology, you know, digital pattern making and digital pattern laying and we can it by digital cutting machines and all these things, technology can give us a lot of those unlocks you can't remove. You know, there's only a certain amount of hours that you, that one person can give and a jacket takes x amount of hours. We can't necessarily speed up that part of the production, but we can where we can remove the burden time frame of, you know, physically chalking around a pattern and we can, we can have it already printed out. That's that, that's the unlock for, for, for productivity.

[Robert Peston]

So your ambition is greater productivity then I imagine.

[James Slater]

Yeah.

[Robert Peston]

What else? What's, what's the plan? What's the ambition and how are you going to do it?

[James Slater]

Here you go, Ben.

[Ben Fogle]

Right, okay. Just put that. Well, I kind for me, I would love to unlock the full potential of a brand that shared an office with.

[Robert Peston]

What does that mean?

[Ben Fogle]

Well, James sort of started that we shared an office with RAB and RAB is now 120 million pound business recognized in every outdoor shop. If you go out on the street, you will see someone weari a Rab I It would make me on the social enterprise side of things. It would make me very proud to see Buffalo worn just as, with just as much pride as people are willing to buy. Fal, Raven or Patagonia, all of these other brands that are available out there. I would love to see people wearing a Sheffield South Yorkshire made brand with great pride here in the uk. And for me, my dream in five years is that we have a factory five times the size still within Sheffield, that we have employed hundreds of people, that we have dozens of apprentices all learning the art that our legacy staff that we have, that we've, you know, inherited as such, are teaching the craft to hungry youngsters and that we've got big military contracts and that we have firmly made Buffalo what Falraven or Patagonia has done for Sweden or for the United States.

[Robert Peston]

Yeah. And can I just ask you before I wrap things up, obviously there's a lot of pressure in terms of energy prices and we've mentioned as well, employment costs. How much are you seeing your costs go up then in manufacturing?

[James Slater]

Yeah, I mean energy costs are, you know, off the scale. I forget what percentage were up in the last five years. But, but you know, there isn't, there is no cap for, for business and you know, it's all of these things. You have to weigh it up. And you know, we increase our prices once a year traditionally is what most, most manufacturers would do. And we maybe get into a situation where this has to be a bit more dynamic and that, you know, not. I'm not saying we're going to be like a fuel forecourt.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Slater]

But where we actually need to think about, you know, is there a quarterly

[Robert Peston]

adjustment and is it inflation you're putting it up by each year or is it just.

[James Slater]

Traditionally we've done will be an inflationary increase.

[Robert Peston]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Slater]

And some rounding numbers. We inherited some products with some, you know, £37 26p for a garment type thing. So we've done some rounding up and inflationary measures. Yeah.

[Robert Peston]

And are you worried about that? Because obviously with all the volatility in the Middle east down to the, you know.

[James Slater]

Yeah, I'm incredibly worried about it. And I think that's also why it's super important to try and keep as much of supply chains as local, as local as possible. You know, as the Straits come, you know, or Covid or any of these things, we're almost more reliant on trying to maintain that we've got a core element of skills left in this country so that as the time needs, we have that basis, whatever industry it is to expand it out.

[Robert Peston]

And do you have component parts of your products that come from other countries?

[James Slater]

Yeah. So Buffalo actually invented Pertex, which is used by every outdoor brand around the world. Sadly, we don't own that element of the business that was sold off long before our time. So it's owned by a Japanese company and they make it in Japan, India, China, you know, they're manufacturing in local different bases just in case there is, you know, a systemic issue in, in one or the other. The pile we still make in the uk we, we know, we try and get as much of it from the uk. It's, it's just, to be honest, it's a lot easier if it's just from down the road.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[James Slater]

In the main and trying to support things. So yeah, we, it's. The world's in a difficult place and the more the supply chain is kept local, it is easier. It's not always possible.

[Robert Peston]

Yeah, well, good luck because, you know, as a proud Northerner, I want to see businesses thrive in the region because it's really important. So good luck with it.

[Ben Fogle]

Thank you so much.

[James Slater]

Thanks for having us.

[Ben Fogle]

Thank you.

[Steph McGovern]

So there we go. That's Ben Fogel and James Slater there. A couple of things I wanted to pick up with you, Robert, off the back of it. One is that point about procurement and how they have managed on a local level. They're obviously doing all these small deals with local police forces, things like that, but getting that centralized, that big contract which could make a huge difference to a business like them. They argue it would be jobs in the area, money in the area, money kept in the UK economy and everything else, you know, and this. You, you've interviewed someone recently who works in AI. You said the same thing. You know, it's interesting, that issue of businesses that seem to do well on a local level with government contracts, but not on a national scale.

[Robert Peston (continued)]

Although I think Ben and James seem to me to be highlighting a slightly different problem from what Alex Stephany of Beam, who supplies this so called Magic Notes product. It's a product that basically, it's an AI product which basically turns things like interviews into structured documents, transcripts and that provides summaries and all the rest of it. And, and he's been supplying this product to the social services massively sort of speeds up analysis of social service interviews, that kind of thing, and saves social services money. But the problem that he sort of highlighted was the risk aversion of central government. The story he told was of trying to get this Magic Notes project rolled out throughout the Ministry of Justice, throughout the Probation Service. He felt this would save them a ton of money and a ton of time. Deny this, but he felt they sort of ripped off his ideas, but also that they were just a bit risk averse. That, and this is certainly something that I've come across, you know, to an enormous extent over the years with British businesses trying to, you know, supply, supply to the British public sector is that officials, you know, either go for the brand they know, often an American brand, you know, or they try and do it in house and they're just very wary of British small businesses. I mean, maybe, maybe the Buffalo thing is also about risk aversion or worries about the brand. But it doesn't seem, it feels slightly different from, from, from, from what Alex was saying in the sense that as you say, Buffalo, an incredibly well known and respected brand within the kind of clothing that you're talking about and it's very difficult for me to see, you know, when you're, it's not like buying a high tech product where maybe the officials don't really get it. I mean, is it just that it's too expensive relative to suppliers or something?

[Robert Peston]

Yeah, well, that was going to be

[Steph McGovern]

my next point because, and what I wanted to ask you about because you know, the, as you point out, they know this brand. Look, when ministers turn up at the factory, they're wearing buffalo jackets like loads of protection officers wear them. So, you know, this is, you know, an understood and much loved brand. But then it does come back to cost because they're saying they are more expensive than the, you know, the, the other military uniform offers from, from Abro. So there's it. But their argument is, and I wanted to ask your opinion on this, they're saying, yeah, okay, we are a bit more expensive, but by paying a little bit more, you're keeping jobs in a business. You're, you know, you will, they'll be able to invest and grow, pay more tax and everything else. So should the government pay more for stuff, for jobs, money, investment in the UK or should they go for the cheapest to save the public purchase? And that's the other dilemma here.

[Robert Peston (continued)]

So look, the classic economic argument would be that the government should buy cheapest. And that is definitely the mindset that this government has had certainly since really pretty much since Thatcher and onwards. There is a really interesting question whether that moment of basically just scouring the international market, market, and this normally means in recent years going to China to buy the cheapest is the right approach. And certainly if you look at America, even before Trump's America, they had a much more, they have a much more aggressively buy American policy within the American public sector. And that does support very large numbers of important American businesses in tech, in defense, in manufacturing more generally. It's a very difficult argument because if Warne had the confidence, and I'd be interested to know your judgment about this, if Warne had the confidence that Buffalo is potentially a really competitive business that could, for example, grow overseas, develop exports, it's got a terrific product and with just a little bit of additional,

[James Slater]

you

[Robert Peston (continued)]

know, with a little bit of additional purchase from the UK government that would give it the cash flow to invest a bit more and get into this sort of virtuous cycle, cycle of growth, then you would say, absolutely, the British government should be doing this. But then, you know, if you certainly go back decades and actually even more recently than that, we have seen, you know, British governments supporting essentially failing businesses and keeping them alive, when actually it would be better for all concerned, even for the workers, for the business to be put out of its misery so that the business, you know, so everybody then goes off and finds more productive, either employment or productive uses of capital. So it is tricky. It's about judgment. And I guess the thing that this government, and when I say this government, I don't mean this government, I just mean the British government over many years, and particularly the public sector struggles to do. And you can sort of get this because officials are not, you know, trained to be like sort of Dragon's Den judges. Right. They do struggle to make subtle judgments about the kind of businesses that are worth supporting and others where you're just subsidizing a lame duck. I mean, for what it's worth, we're gonna have an example of this in real time now because the British Prime Minister has just said that the state is gonna take control of British steel now. He says this is a national security emergency. We've got to have steel making in the uk and that's why he's doing it. But if in five years time we see that a ton of money has gone down the drain in an incredibly inefficient business when at a time when we could have been buying the steel more cheaply elsewhere, then that won't look so clever. So, you know, these, so, so, you know, these are risky judgments. Probably the thing that is worst about the British public sector often in these sorts of situations is, you know, the sort of jobs, what's known as the jobs worth attitude, that they don't want to take a risk on a business that could be, you know, a fast growing success. Because, quote, it's not worth my jobs. You know, it's more than my job's worth if the thing goes bust. And that is the kind of mentality that we have to get away from

[Steph McGovern]

in the U.K. yes, because obviously we were talking, weren't we, to the British Business bank about this and about how, how, you know, you, you sometimes have to take risks and know that some of the investments will go badly as well as well in the Twitter in there, and I think specifically with Buffalo, like from what the lads were saying, you know, this is a business that needs a lot of modernization. So it's not like they're already there in terms of, you know, how they're using AI and things like that. There's, there's a lot of work to be done. And as things stand, they've put a lot of their own money in, but they're not seeing. They're not taking, you know, any money out of it yet. So. And I put to them, well, it feels a bit like a social enterprise. And so what they need to do is probably have set out their stall a lot more about how they are going to modernize it and what that would look like in terms of growth and then, you know, the employment and everything else. So they have an ambition. But I could understand as a government, as you say, because then other businesses are going to come out and say, well, hang on a minute, what will you help them? What about us? We're doing this. And then before you know it, you get. The government's paying more for loads of things just for the sake of. Of helping British businesses that might not be viable in the longer term anyway.

[Robert Peston (continued)]

All right, so I'm going to put it back to you then. I mean, obviously, I don't know, James and Ben, some might look at, you know, the fact that, you know, Ben is a sort of TV celebrity and think this is just a vanity project, but do you think they're capable of managing this business reasonably well? Were you impressed with them? And then I suppose the second question is, is Buffalo? I mean, you know, you'll be a perfectly good judge of this. Is it good gear, as it were, or what my grandfather would call, you know, decent schmutter? I mean, is this a quality project?

[Robert Peston]

Yeah.

[Steph McGovern]

So I would say, yes, I think they can do it because James Slater has got a really strong background in, you know, in clothing. I, you know, he's a tailor, he's run several businesses. He's also a former banker, so he does care about money. I don't think he's doing it for a vanity project. And equally, Ben, you know, Ben again, is someone who really cares about what he wears when he's climbing Mount Everest and everything else. So in terms of the quality of the product, that's partly the reason why he, he did this. And, you know, he spoke very passionately about the people who work there. And, you know, we're talking about a place in the North, Sheffield's really strong history. And we mentioned, mentioned steel. You know, that's. Sheffield's got a long history in terms of steel, of cutlery making, of all these industries which have really struggled and there's not been much investment since. We've seen the decline of lots of those. So I do think they've definitely.

[Robert Peston]

And they want, they do want to

[Steph McGovern]

make money from it. They're not doing it as Ben was talking about his wife, you know, it was going to kill him if he doesn't pull somebody out of it in the end, whether they can do it and whether they can do the modernization that's needed quick enough without being hit by the rising energy costs, the rising component costs of the products which they do bring in from other countries. That is where, you know, are the margins going to get so tight that it then becomes, you know, not viable in the time that they've set to do this? I think that's the challenge for them is all those variables which are just putting more and more pressure, pressure on industry, on businesses like that which are high, use a lot of energy and a lot of labor. With labor costs going up, with energy prices going up and component costs being a little bit more volatile, then is that, can they modernize enough to, to so that that isn't an issue for them? I don't know. And that's the, that's the big question here. Buffalo's a type of brand like barber, where if you get it right, they. And it's really desirable across the world.

[Robert Peston (continued)]

Yeah, well, look, I hope, look, obviously I wish everybody concerned, including the workforce, very well. I mean, I'm afraid I am a bit of a sucker for the romance of manufacturing. I'm always incredibly impressed when I come across firms that are still making particularly clothes in the uk given our great heritage, our great traditions in clothing manufacture and so much of, I mean, that industry was absolutely decimated from the 70s, the 70s onwards. So I would say more power to their elbows, more power to their sewing machines.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, exactly Right. We should wrap things up. Thank you very much for listening to us. But that's it from us and the rest is money.

[Robert Peston]

Bye bye.

[Robert Peston (continued)]

Goodbye.

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[James Slater]

Edu Sci Fi.