283. Does the UK need to be rich?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Money – Episode 283

Title: Does the UK Need to be Rich?
Date: 31 May, 2026
Hosts: Steph McGovern & Robert Peston
Guest: Jeremy Hunt (Former Chancellor)

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth and lively discussion between the hosts and former Chancellor Jeremy Hunt on the perennial question at the heart of British public life: “Does the UK need to be rich?” Through analysing economic growth, public spending, welfare, regional development, and tax reform, the conversation navigates why economic optimism in the UK has faded, what policy levers could unlock genuine prosperity for more people, and how the government could (or failed to) deliver meaningful, long-term changes rather than short-term gimmicks.

The hosts dig into Hunt’s new book, “Can We Be Rich Again?”, challenging its premise and extracting both candid admissions and policy prescriptions for the UK’s anaemic growth. The dialogue ranges from the realities of governing through crises, the successes and limits of tax cuts, to urgent reforms needed in welfare, education and giving real power to regions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is the UK Really “Poor” – or Do People Just Feel That Way?

[05:21 – 08:00]

• Robert Peston questions why Hunt’s book focuses on the idea of becoming “rich again,” arguing that the UK is already wealthy by global standards—the issue is not aggregate wealth, but distribution and lived experience.
• Hunt explains that despite relative wealth, most people don’t feel rich anymore because economic growth has drastically slowed since the 2008 financial crisis:
  “Now growth is 1%. It’s so slow you don’t even notice it. And that’s why people are losing hope...” (Jeremy Hunt, 07:30)
• Hunt argues this creates a generational loss of optimism: in the 1980s/1990s, each generation expected to be richer than the last, but now that’s gone.

2. Why Was Growth So Weak Under 14 Years of Tory Rule?

[08:28 – 11:00]

• Peston and McGovern press Hunt on why realisation of the need for bold growth measures appears only after leaving office.
• Hunt cites hindsight and the accumulation of lessons in office, but points to global shocks (financial crisis, pandemic, Ukraine energy shock) causing unprecedented deficits:
  “A doctor earning 100 grand. The state was borrowing £25k... to pay that doctor's salary.” (Jeremy Hunt, 09:20)
• Brexit’s impact is raised, but Hunt focuses on the global context.

3. Is the UK “Ungovernable”? Obstacles to Long-Term Reform

[11:12 – 12:48]

• Peston argues the necessary structural changes often don’t happen because they’re divisive and take longer than an electoral cycle.
• Hunt rejects the “ungovernable” label, insisting:
  “Determined leaders can make changes. But ... your political capital ... is at its highest when you arrive in office. ... You have to do the big things early.” (Jeremy Hunt, 13:00)
• He asserts too much capital is spent on short-term tactics instead of foundational reform.

4. Tax Cuts & “Gimmicks” – Substance or Short-Termism?

[14:06 – 16:06]

• The hosts challenge Hunt’s national insurance tax cuts as short-term electoral bribes that squeezed fiscal headroom.
• Hunt pushes back:
  “If you talk to people like Paul Johnson, that was the tax cut that had the biggest impact ... The OBR said they increased GDP by 0.6% and took 200k people off welfare into work.” (Jeremy Hunt, 14:40)
• He suggests effective tax cuts, restrained public spending, and productivity drives are the path to growth.
• He acknowledges that “gimmicks ... tend to find their way into budgets,” and argues for focus on substance (54:39).

5. Devolving Real Power to the Regions – Lessons from France & the US

[19:00 – 29:00]

• Both hosts and Hunt agree that genuine regional empowerment is a key untapped lever.
• Hunt:
  “Our devolution is a bit of a fraud in England … elected mayors have political legitimacy but not the agency to solve their problems.” (Jeremy Hunt, 20:15)
• Cites examples of Denver (US) and Bilbao (Spain) outpacing Manchester due to genuine local financial autonomy.
• Praises France’s system: local authorities keep tax proceeds from local development, providing incentive to build infrastructure and housing.
• Notable quote:
  “If Andy Burnham wants to raise £3 billion like Denver’s mayor did, he can’t.” (Jeremy Hunt, 21:40)
• Discusses risk of regional inequality but says current centralisation already produces stark disparities.

6. Welfare Reform – Mind the Incentives Trap

[30:34 – 33:14]

• Getting more people into work is seen as an immediate lever for growth and social improvement, but Hunt cautions it must be “good work” not just “any work.”
• Highlights how benefit structures can perversely disincentivize work: “If you’re living in London … you get about £46,000 from the state in benefits. If you work full time on the national living wage, after tax you get £22,000. … It’s just not possible to have a modern economy with those sorts of incentives.” (Jeremy Hunt, 31:31)
• Advocates for welfare reform including mental health:
  “If you sign people off for moderate anxiety and depression without offering real therapy or encouraging work, you entrench isolation and poor mental health.” (Jeremy Hunt, 32:47)

7. Vocational Skills, Education, and the Changing Nature of Work

[33:14 – 37:49]

• McGovern and Peston highlight the disconnect between rigorous academic standards and what many young people need: more practical and vocational skills, social confidence, and readiness for change in the AI era.
• Hunt lauds school reforms for improving literacy and maths, but concedes:
  “The 50% who don’t go to university ... we don’t give [them] the practical skills. In Switzerland ... they’d leave school with vocational skills that meant they’d earn the average income.” (Jeremy Hunt, 36:15)
• Peston calls out the lack of focus on soft skills, teamwork, and AI literacy in the curriculum.

8. Productivity in Health, Welfare & Energy – Quick Wins and Long-Term Strategies

[39:10 – 42:23]

• Hunt highlights the need for more NHS spending as society ages but calls attention to productivity:
  “The thing is, most of the things you do will take five years before they show through in the figures. … But getting more people into work has an almost immediate impact.” (Jeremy Hunt, 40:15)
• On energy, Hunt laments high business costs in the UK despite abundant wind power and points to planning system delays.

9. Debt, Fiscal Responsibility, and the Future of Pensions

[43:42 – 46:24]

• Hunt:
  “If you look at the £110 billion we pay in debt interest, that’s money that doesn’t go into building/booming the economy … it is not sustainable.” (43:42)
• Argues for a fiscal rule:
  “We will not grow public spending faster than economic growth.” (44:50)
• Openly calls for reforming the triple lock on pensions:
  “It does need to be reformed ... If pensioners knew their very generous pensions were ultimately being funded by debt piling up on their children and grandchildren, I think they would think again as to whether it’s the right policy.” (Jeremy Hunt, 45:51)

10. Capital Investment, Startups & Britain’s Tech Edge – but Who Benefits?

[47:13 – 52:33]

• Peston highlights worrying trends of British startups and listed firms being sold to foreign investors (“British capital isn’t backing Britain”), questioning how this benefits those “left behind.”
• Hunt touts his Mansion House reforms for pensions investing in UK businesses but agrees the country must do more to spread prosperity beyond the “London bubble.”
• McGovern underscores the lack of connection people outside London feel to “economic success”:
  “If you are in Middlesbrough, you think to yourself: what is the connection between these people getting unbelievably rich in London and my life, when I can barely afford the basics?” (Robert Peston, 50:07)

11. Making Growth Meaningful – Spreading Opportunity, Not Just Wealth

[51:15 – 55:21]

• Hunt insists that “losing hope” is avoidable—balancing optimism around tech and universities with urgent structural reforms (welfare, regional power, planning).
• “If you talk about the ‘Middlesbrough issue’: other countries ... have evened out opportunities across the whole country. We can absolutely do this ... with lessons in plain sight.” (Jeremy Hunt, 52:36)
• Warns against solving for the “cost of living” only with “gimmicks”:
  “There’s too much gimmicks on all sides in politics. … The things that would unlock growth, like empowering regional mayors ... transforming welfare ... planning reform … those are the things that would really make a difference.” (Jeremy Hunt, 54:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the generational shift in optimism:
  “People had optimism and confidence they were going to be wealthier than their parents. Now growth is 1%. It's so slow you don't even notice it. And that's why people are losing hope.” (Jeremy Hunt, 07:30)

• On public spending vs. growth:
  “We will not grow public spending faster than economic growth—over many years we’ve been growing spending faster than the economy. That, in the end, leads to bankruptcy.” (Jeremy Hunt, 44:50)

• On tax cuts and their real-world effects:
  “Those tax cuts were the ones that had the biggest impact. Now, if you don't want to do those tax cuts, then what is your plan for economic growth?” (Jeremy Hunt, 15:20)

• On devolution and the power to build:
  “Our devolution is a bit of a fraud ... elected mayors have legitimacy but not agency.” (Jeremy Hunt, 20:15)

• On spreading opportunity:
  “Other countries ... have evened out opportunities across the country. ... We can absolutely do this ... in the UK.” (Jeremy Hunt, 52:36)

• On “gimmicky” policy announcements:
  “There's too much gimmicks on all sides in politics. ... We should build our case on the things that would really make a difference.” (Jeremy Hunt, 54:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:21 | Debate on the concept of “being rich” and public perceptions | | 08:28 | Reflection on 14 years of weak growth and lessons after office | | 11:12 | Is Britain ungovernable? Obstacles to deep reform | | 14:06 | National insurance tax cuts—policy or “bribe”? | | 19:00 | Discussion on real devolution—France/US models | | 30:34 | Welfare incentives and poverty traps | | 33:14 | The skills gap—academic vs. vocational, school reforms | | 39:10 | NHS productivity and getting people into work | | 43:42 | Debt drag, fiscal rules, and the need to reform pensions | | 47:13 | British capital and foreign takeovers—tech’s geographic divide | | 51:15 | How to connect growth with real opportunity nationwide | | 54:41 | The overuse of “gimmicks” and the necessity for substance |

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Tone and Takeaways

The discussion is frank, sometimes combative, but largely constructive, with Jeremy Hunt displaying candour about past mistakes and limits to policymaking, while emphasizing optimism for the UK’s future if tough decisions are made. Both hosts push for specificity and challenge Hunt on questions of fairness, distribution, and who truly benefits from “riches.” The episode’s underlying message is that with political will, honesty, and a shift toward substantive regional empowerment and investment in skills, the UK can recover its sense of economic optimism.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a roadmap of the major debates likely to animate the next political season: growth (and its distribution), fiscal discipline, the need for radical regional devolution, welfare reform that rewards work while supporting the vulnerable, and the urgency of connecting national success to regional and individual opportunity. Listeners are left with a diagnosis and rough treatment plan—one that, if followed, could address the question: Does the UK need to be rich, or does it just need to make prosperity much more broadly felt?

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Transcript

[Robert Peston]

You were in government for 14 blooming years.

[Jeremy Hunt]

You look at that 14 years growth remained anaemic.

[Steph McGovern]

That feels a bit unfair on the electorate that you only realize this as you come out.

[Jeremy Hunt]

A doctor earning 100 grand. The state was borrowing 25 grand to be paid by future generations to pay that doctor's salary. Normally you'll get a kind of gimmicky announcement at a budget.

[Steph McGovern]

So you admit you do gimmicks at the start.

[Jeremy Hunt]

There's too much gimmicks on all sides in politics. Empowering regional mayors to sort out problems like properly transforming the welfare system so that people, people have incentives to take jobs and not remain parked on Welfare.

[Robert Peston]

You did two national insurance cuts at a cost of 20 billion. And actually it was just an electoral bribe.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Nonsense. And let me just explain that because

[Steph McGovern]

this episode is brought to you by Octopus Energy. Greg Jackson, the CEO, is with us now. So, Greg, I've got a question for you. Is it true that by 2040 in China there will be no petrol stations because everyone will be driving electric cars?

[Jeremy Hunt]

Yeah. Crazy as it seems, the Chinese state oil company, the one in charge of its petrol stations, is planning on having none by 2040. If you visit China today, what's really striking is the roads are quiet. I mean, all of the two wheeled vehicles that used to pump out pollution and noise are now electric. Pretty much all the taxis, buses, increasingly more than half the private cars that are sold in narrow electric. And even this year so far, 25% of their trucks are electric. So that electrification means that they're going to be less affected by global oil shocks and they won't have any petrol stations.

[Steph McGovern]

Greg, thank you very much. Now, on with today's episode.

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[Steph McGovern]

Hello, and welcome to the Rest Is Money. With me, Steph McGovern.

[Robert Peston]

And with me, Ro Paston.

[Steph McGovern]

Now, today we've got Jeremy Hunt. With us, former Chancellor, of course, Tory Chancellor. He's held other big roles in Cabinet as well. And of course, he was the person Liz Truss turned to.

[Robert Peston]

She did. I mean, literally days before she was forced out herself, she brought him in to replace Kwati Kwateng. After the disastrous mini budget when we saw bonds plummeting, real risk that the government wasn't gonna be able to borrow. And actually, if you haven't yet listened to our three part series on the Truss debacle, it's still there, it's still relevant.

[Steph McGovern]

Who killed Liz Truss is what that series is.

[Robert Peston]

Today, what we want to focus on is how to revive the economy. I mean, Jeremy Hunt is somebody. He was Health Secretary, he was Foreign Secretary, he was Culture Secretary, and then he was Chancellor. And so there are very few people, actually, who understand more about why governments find it so difficult to actually take the difficult decisions that are necessary to revive the economy.

[Steph McGovern]

Here's our interview with Jeremy Hunt. Jeremy, it's lovely to have you on the show. I think last time we spoke to you was in number 11 when you

[Jeremy Hunt]

were Chancellor in the oak panel dining room. If I remember rightly.

[Steph McGovern]

It was indeed. Since then. I need to start by saying thanks to you because you helped me win 125 grand on who Wants To Be a Millionaire?

[Jeremy Hunt]

How did that do you?

[Steph McGovern]

You were the answer to one of the questions.

[Robert Peston]

What was the question?

[Steph McGovern]

The question was, which Chancellor has also held other Cabinet roles? And then the list was. God, I can't remember who was on the list, but it was.

[Robert Peston]

Oh, I see.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes, you had a choice of Chancellors, so it was obviously Rachel Reeves and you and. Yeah, I can't remember the other two. And I knew you were the answer

[Jeremy Hunt]

and you didn't need to phone a friend.

[Steph McGovern]

I didn't. I just knew the audience. Yeah.

[Robert Peston]

So I would have been very shocked if you hadn't known the answer.

[Steph McGovern]

I know.

[Robert Peston]

Well, yeah, it might have been the end of our beautiful relationship.

[Steph McGovern]

I just want to say that money has gone directly into helping a charity in Middlesbrough and they've managed to get property with the money. So that is a direct investment you have made into the Middlesbrough area.

[Jeremy Hunt]

I'm gonna take all the credit I can because we don't get very much in.

[Robert Peston]

Bullshit.

[Steph McGovern]

No, no, no, exactly. Anyway, thank you for coming in again, Robert. You're gonna Kick things off, aren't you, with the serious stuff?

[Robert Peston]

Well, I know how serious we're ever gonna be, but, yeah, we try. Now, I've read most of your book, and as usual, it's extremely clear, very well set out. But I'm gonna start by quibbling, actually, with the title, because I just think Can We Be Rich Again? Is just totally the wrong title, and it's really not what your book is about either. Well, I mean, your book is broadly about how we get the economy growing again, so that we have an economy that works for people, particularly people who are lower paid. Truthfully, we are a rich economy, that the issue is not can we be rich again? It's how do we have an economy that works properly, particularly for the very many millions of people who think that actually people like you, Westminster let them down.

[Steph McGovern]

I don't think that's a better title, though, Robert, to be fair, it's not a better title.

[Robert Peston]

But, but it's, but as I just say, I just don't think, you know, the, I think the title, if I'm, if, if I'm, if I'm going to be critical, I'd say you're doing what, what, what, what you accuse journalists of doing, of sensationalizing something to get a few readers. But that's not what the book's about.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, it is, it really is, because,

[Robert Peston]

you know, we're not poor, Jo.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Any international standards.

[Robert Peston]

What a poor country.

[Jeremy Hunt]

You sound exactly like I sounded when I was Chancellor. I would go around saying, you know, we're doing so well in Britain, We've grown faster than France, Italy, Germany, Japan, and, you know, we are doing well by international standards. But the truth is, yes, of course, compared to lots of countries in the world, we are wealthy. But do people feel wealthy?

[Robert Peston]

They're not agreeing with you.

[Jeremy Hunt]

And, and the truth is they don't. And so when I say, can we be rich again? Yes, It's a kind of snappy way of encapsulating that sense people have that our wealth is going down. And what is the big reason for that? Here's an interesting thing, right? As you well know, since 2008, financial crisis, we've been growing about 1% a year. Prior to that, about 2 and a half percent a year. If you go into ChatGPT and you say, if you grow at 2 and a half percent a year, using the power of compounding, how long does it take for our GDP to double? Answer, 28 years. So the world that the three of us grew up in, the country was doubling in wealth every 28 years, basically every generation.

[Robert Peston]

So how ever doubling in income, I'm gonna, I'm sure doubling in income.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Fair point. But you know, the truth is that however difficult things felt on the ground in the 1980s and 1990s and early 2000s, people had optimism and confidence that they were going to be wealthier than their parents and a wealthier than their grandparents. Now growth is 1% and that it means it's taking 70 years. It's so slow you don't even notice it. And that's why people are losing hope and what this book is trying to do. As you know, my books are positive books that are trying to present solutions. And I'm trying to say this is a totally solvable problem. Not easy, but it is solvable. And this is how we give people hope.

[Robert Peston]

And look, Steph and I would completely agree that it's the right challenge. Of course it is. I guess, you know, the first question I want to ask you is why has this only dawned on you now? You were in government for 14 blooming years. Why did you and your colleagues so singularly fail to grasp what needed to be done?

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, it hasn't only dawned on me now. And I think that the book shows that there are lots of things that I tried to do, but I've also tried to be honest and talk about the things that I didn't do. That with the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had. But let's deal with that issue because I think, by the way, you know, previous books I've written about how to fix the nhs, I had exactly the same question. You were the longest serving health secretary. Why didn't you do this stuff? Truth is, you do learn things in office. You know, when you finish a big job, there are things that you discover or uncover or learn that you didn't know when you started. But in this case, that feels a

[Steph McGovern]

bit unfair on the electorate, that you only realize this as you come out and then you publish a book about it and don't do it when you're there.

[Jeremy Hunt]

But that's democracy, isn't it? That's democracy. I mean, you know, Rachel Reeves had not been chancellor until 2024. And I'm sure that she would say that she's learned a hell of a lot of things about the economy and the way that job works in the last couple of years. And you know, democracy, we choose ordinary people to do these big jobs and actually you want them to learn on the job. And I would say you actually want them to try and reflect honestly on what they got right and wrong. But I want to answer the big question, Robert, you said, because if you look at that 14 years, it is absolutely true that growth remained anemic about that 1% a year. So that's not wrong. But you have to understand the context. A global financial crisis, which left us a deficit of 10% of GDP. So the government, when we came to office, was borrowing nearly one pound in every four that we spent. You know, like a doctor earning 100 grand. The state was borrowing 25 grand to be paid by future generations to pay that doctor's salary. That was tough to deal with. Then we had a pandemic which meant we had to borrow £350 billion to do the furlough scheme. Then we had the Ukraine energy shock, which was kind of like the 1970s energy shock.

[Robert Peston]

We also had the south arm of Brexit, which, you know, the economy was significantly recovering before Brexit.

[Jeremy Hunt]

That was decided by a vote. I'm just talking about global shocks for a moment. We can talk about Brexit, of course, but my point is, how do we do in that period? Actually, we did grow faster than comparable large economies like Japan, Germany or Italy, but it was not as fast as we were used to. And that's why people didn't feel rich. And what I'm saying now is we've got to do the next thing, just

[Robert Peston]

the final sort of big question before we drill down into individual policies. There's a lot of talk at the moment that the country is ungovernable. Right. It's become a big debate, given the crisis that this government is going through, essentially whether the Prime Minister can survive. Is there just a fundamental problem that any genuine restructuring that has to be done has two qualities? One is it's gonna divide MPs, and possibly to such an extent that you're not gonna get it through Parliament. And second, that almost everything you need to do you can't do within one Parliament. And therefore the electoral cycle just makes it almost impossible, the short termism, to fix the country in the way that you would want. And I'm reminded, I guess, of perhaps the biggest thing that you did, which is you did two national insurance cuts at a cost of 20 billion. I would argue that if you had done those as a way of basically reorienting the costs, of employing people, cutting those costs, but then raising money else elsewhere, possibly through a change in asset taxation of some sort, that would have been a really radical reform for a Chancellor to make. But actually it was just an electoral bribe. And you talk a lot about getting debt under control and it's obviously important to get it under control. But those two cuts did the opposite of that nonsense.

[Jeremy Hunt]

And let me just explain that because I think, first of all, I don't buy this story that the country is ungovernable. I was in the cabinet for 11 of the 14 years the Conservatives were in office and I never had any problem making really important long term changes, often changes that would take beyond the electoral cycle to feed through. As long as you're absolutely clear with your civil servants about what you want to do, it is perfectly possible. Determined leaders can make changes. But one of the things that has become clear to me is that your political capital, either as a minister or as a government, is at its highest when you arrive in office. So if you're like chief executive of British Airways, you can arrive in the job, you can get your feet under the table, work out how everything works and maybe two years in, say, here's my plan to make BA the, the best airline in the world. You can't do that as a politician because your political capital is draining away from the moment you arrive. And therefore you have to do the big things early. So I think the reason, irrespective of the rights and wrongs of their policy decisions, the reason that Keir Starmer, Rachel Reeves have got into trouble is that they didn't do the big.

[Steph McGovern]

They did do big stuff, though. £40 billion worth of tax rises, the

[Jeremy Hunt]

big radical changes that we need that are talked about in the book, which some of, I think some of which they would agree with, like welfare reform, like the planning system. Those didn't happen early. Now I want to address your, your other point, Robert. I must, about national insurance, because I

[Robert Peston]

could just about see the case for the first cut. The second cut I just thought was profligate.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, it wasn't at all because first of all, it was within the fiscal rules. But you know my answer to you

[Robert Peston]

cut headroom to the bare minimum.

[Jeremy Hunt]

I cut headroom to 10 billion. And let me just. But let me answer your question because I think it's very important. No, not.

[Robert Peston]

Come on, it's too little.

[Jeremy Hunt]

No, it's not. Because look what the OBR said about those tax cuts. They said that they increased GDP by 0.6%. Now that sounds a small amount, but it is significant. They take 200,000 people off welfare into work. That was my growth strategy. And I could have chosen tax cuts that were much more salient with the electorate, that people understood no One was asking for cuts in Employees National Insurance. People wanted cuts in, in inheritance tax at the time, in stamp duty, in income tax. Employees National Insurance was not on the list. But that was the tax cut. If you talk to people like Paul Johnson, that was the tax cut.

[Robert Peston]

Paul would agree that the second one was totally unaffordable. I've asked him about it.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Paul said that these are those. Yeah, I know, but you're not letting me answer the question, Robert. Those tax cuts were the ones that had the biggest impact. Now, if you don't want to do those tax cuts, then you have to answer the question, what is your plan for economic growth? Now in that chapter, I have a whole chapter in that book. In the book I have an old chapter on tax. And I think I prove in that that actually reducing the burden of tax is one of the ways that you grow the economy. Because if you look around the world, the countries with lower taxes are the ones that are growing faster. And I think we need to go on that difficult journey. And the way, the only way you can do that is to show restraint in public spending, which is what I also did in that final budget.

[Steph McGovern]

On the point which Robert makes around the, you know, the decisions, feeling short termist feels like we're seeing a lot of tactics rather than principled decisions. And on your point about cutting taxes, when Liz Truss came in and, you know, suggested this, all hell broke loose on the bond markets. If you can't prove you've got the money coming in, then you get hammered on borrowing costs.

[Jeremy Hunt]

That was right because. And her mistake. And actually the reason I became Chancellor and the reason I, by the way, ended up on holiday in Brussels and getting a text message from this trust, which I thought, so I ignored, asking me to come back to London and be Chancellor. That happened because the tax cuts that Kwasi Kwateng introduced in the mini budget were funded by borrowing. And that's not a real tax cut. That's actually stacking up debt on future generations. And the markets quite understandably didn't like that. And so if you're going to reduce the burden of taxation, this is not something you can do overnight. It is a long, hard slog. But the evidence I think is very clear in the book that the countries that have done that, I mean, the example I give in the book is the state of Mississippi.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Which happens to have a governor who's called Reeves, not Rachel Reeves, but Tate Reeves, and he's reduced state income tax to its lowest ever level. In fact, he's got a plan to abolish it. And Mississippi, which was the poorest state in the us, has now overtaken the UK in GDP per head, or they're not at what's called purchasing power parity. So it's, you know. But the point is there's a lot

[Robert Peston]

of debate about whether they're really richer in Mississippi than they.

[Jeremy Hunt]

But what that isn't there is. You're correct, Robert, of course. But what there isn't is a debate that over the last three years, Mississippi's been growing at about 3% a year and we've only been growing at 1% a year. And so, you know, you have to have a plan to unlock growth. Now, my employees national insurance was one part.

[Robert Peston]

But what I show my argument is not that you, you shouldn't be cutting taxes, particularly taxes which relate to essentially the ability of businesses to grow and employ people. My argument would be, and let's not get bogged down it, my argument would simply be that tax cut, the second one, not the first one, but the second one was too risky given the state of the public finances. That's my only point.

[Jeremy Hunt]

My point will be very straightforward. I mean, what in that budget, as you may or may not remember, I signed up the NHS to improve productivity by 2% a year and my plan, had I been the government been re elected, would be to roll that across the whole of the public sector. So, yes, I was very conscious that the implication of doing that is more restraint on public spending. But I think that is what we have to do if we're going to get growth.

[Robert Peston]

We're not going to agree on this particular tax cut. But you. But let's just get into some of the individual policies.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah. Well, can I just ask as well your thoughts on this idea of more of the money being devolved? So, you know, the English devol bill, giving regional authorities more discretion over, you know, how they use the region's devolved budget. I, as someone in the regions and talking to people, you know, obviously not. It's not all about the Northeast. Some fella came up to me in the street the other day and he was like, you're always banging on about the Northeast. I live in the Southwest. We have problems too, you know, but there we are. But I have felt like there's more of an inertia towards change and understanding of what those regions need to based on, you know, the potential of using money that's devolved. What, what do you think? That's part of it. Do you think that will work?

[Jeremy Hunt]

I do and I Think that it's really interesting because let's just, if I can just do this segue between what Robert was saying and what you were saying. So. So tax is very highly politically charged.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Hunt]

You know, for all our lifetimes, Tories have wanted lower tax. Labors wanted more money in public services. So it's like very politically charged. I deal with that in the book. But there's a whole lot of things in the book that are not ideological at all, like making it easier to build things, making the NHS more efficient. And you know, the two quickest wins, I think. Well, actually probably the three quickest wins would be to bring down energy prices, to get more people off welfare into work and unlock the power in our regions. And you know, this is so interesting.

[Steph McGovern]

What does unlock the power in our.

[Jeremy Hunt]

I'll tell you what it is. So the interesting thing is that you can go back 30 years and there has been no shortage of effort by national governments, you know, all the way back to Michael Heseltine in Liverpool or George Osborne's northern powerhouse, Boris Johnson's leveling up. You know, what Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves are doing with their place based program. But nearly all of those programs, one way or another have involved the treasury giving money to the regions. And that is all very well, but what other countries have done is actually allow their regions to sort out their own problems by giving elected mayors the real power to sort out planning to, you know, issue bonds, to raise taxes. And I think our, our devolution is a bit of a fraud in England because what we have is elected mayors like Andy Burnham or Andy street or Ben Houchin who have political legitimacy but not the agency to solve their problems. Now I give you an example. Manchester, bit topical now with, with Andy Burnham, right? You compare what's happened in Manchester to what's happened in Bilbao in Spain or Denver in the United States. And then in the 1980s, all three cities had similar income per head. They were all deeply depressed by de industrialization. And over the last 40 years, Bilbao and Denver have basically caught up with the richest cities in their country, Madrid and New York. Manchester still is on an income of about half London's income, and Manchester actually the area that's had the most devolution of power. But can andy Burnham raised $3 billion, which is what the mayor of Denver did to build Denver International Airport? No, he can't.

[Robert Peston]

So can I ask you about this? Because one of the things I really like about the book is you look around the world at what works in different Countries. And you even praise systems in countries that many of your Tory colleagues would never do. So France, for example, you say they've got quite a lot right in France when it comes planning and building. Now, one of the things that's really interesting about France, which you point out, is that if there's a development in a commune, some sort of area, local area, the gain in terms of increased taxes as a result of the development flow to the local government. They don't flow to the centre. Right. Whereas here there is no incentive for a local authority or a mayor to build because almost all the revenue gain that's gonna come from that is gonna go to Westminster, is there. I mean, you were in the treasury, right? I mean, we would love to see those sorts of powers transferred to mayors and local authorities so that they have an incentive to really develop their area and actually say to people who are compl. Complaining locally, look, you know, we're going to get all this money in and we're going to, you know, we're going to compensate you in other ways with better services because we're just going to be more vibrant. But is there any, is it remotely realistic that any Chancellor is going to give away that fund that tax raising ability?

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, I certainly would have done it if I'd stayed as Chancellor.

[Robert Peston]

Would you genuinely?

[Jeremy Hunt]

I said it was probably the single biggest reform. It's a kind of big.

[Robert Peston]

So did you think about this when you were. Absolutely.

[Jeremy Hunt]

And it's a kind of big structural reform that you have to do in the first year of a parliament, right? Because it's a big upheaval and you have to bed these reforms down. But it was absolutely. I would say it's top of my list. But you know, that's. That comparison with France is fascinating because it unlocks a fascinating mystery which is that, you know, over the last 40 years you could not have two countries, France and Britain, that have followed more different paths. I mean, we've been low tax, flexible labor market, light regulation, you know, competitive regime for taxes. And France has been high tax, you know, big labor market restrictions, quite anti business. And yet our GDP and our GDP per head with France have kind of tracked each other over the 14 years. They've hardly diverged at all. And why is it? I think the main reason is because France is just so much easier to build things. And in the 1970s we had about the same number of houses, dwellings as France. Similar populations. Now they have, have 25% more because they make it easy for people to build things in France. And we don't.

[Robert Peston]

Yeah, and it's also, it's not just houses. I mean you've seen the cost of HS2 now spiraling. Just, you know, you know, I looked it up. You can cycle to Birmingham, believe it or not, in 12 hours. Right? We're spending a hundred billion pounds on a link to Birmingham which, I mean there was one report today says that's it's more than it costs to land somebody on the moon. I mean it is, this is. Why are we just, why are we so terrible? France on the other hand has got so many high speed railway lines and it's one of the reasons their productivity is so much better than ours.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, they just have system which aligns the incentives of local authorities. Give you an example. I mean in the 1970s France built six nuclear power stations. Quite a big achievement actually for a decade to get six nuclear power stations off the ground. And in one part of the Loire Valley there was so much tax revenue that they, they went to the local area that they not only slashed their equivalent of council tax, but when broadband arrived they had free broadband and they still have free broadband in this area. So you know, they've actually had a trade off there and the local people are quite happy and they see it's worked and, and so this is the kind of thing we could easily sort out.

[Steph McGovern]

So what's stopping us?

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, look, what's stopping us. I think the truth is that we, we've, we've gone in the wrong direction. We've thought the issue, what we need to do is to have elected mayors. I think they're good, but you need to give elected mayors the power to transform their areas and that means tax raising. Effectively it means tax raising but also means receiving the taxes that are generated by new businesses that they allow to take root in their areas.

[Steph McGovern]

Isn't the danger though for some areas that they might not, you know, they'll essentially areas will become in competition with each other if, especially if it's foreign investments, isn't that a good thing? Well, maybe, but what about those areas then where they haven't got the infrastructure like Manchester has at the moment? They're, you know, they're behind the curve and all that and then they're trying to compete and then they, if it is then connected to how much tax is, you know, earned in the area, received in the area, then they don't get enough and then they have less money and you know, is, is, I

[Jeremy Hunt]

totally get what you're saying. And you're worried that the kind of the places that are a bit behind could get left even further behind.

[Steph McGovern]

Yes.

[Jeremy Hunt]

What I would say is that's basically what's happened in this country.

[Steph McGovern]

I mean, it is if you take

[Jeremy Hunt]

Middlesbrough somewhere very close to your own heart. You know, if they decide what they really need in Middlesbrough is a new ring road or a new rail station, right now they have to get down to London, bang on the treasury door,

[Steph McGovern]

which takes ages because the transaction, that's

[Jeremy Hunt]

the Chancellor for money. The Chancellor's got all these pressures that Robert and I were talking about earlier and it never happens or it takes an age for it to happen. Whereas in any other country, a city like Middlesbrough would be able to solve that problem. And, you know, this is where we are. We've gone wrong for a long time and it's time to put that right. And we can look at nearly any other country, by the way, the disparity between London and the southeast and our regions is far higher in Britain than any other major economy because we don't allow areas to solve their own problems. So this is a no brainer. This is not left or right or, you know, Labour or Conservative. If we closed half the gap between London and our regions, that adds about 4% to GDP. That would make the average household about 1,000.

[Robert Peston]

I totally agree. We've talked about this a lot on this podcast and you're right. I mean, the fact that our second cities are so much poorer than London compared to France's, you know, Lyon, for example, Marseille, they're all way richer compared to Paris than our second city. I mean, you're right. If we could just close the gap, it would make an enormous difference. Jeremy, so much more we need to talk to you about, but we'll be back in a minute or two.

[Jeremy Hunt]

It's nearly that time, everyone.

[Robert Peston]

The rest is football will be on

[Jeremy Hunt]

Netflix every day for the world's biggest tournament. Join myself, Alan and Micah for daily debates, unfiltered takes and the most special of guests, all from the heart of New York City. Yeah, that's right. We're excited too. See you soon.

[Robert Peston]

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[Robert Peston]

One of the things you say, which is patently true, that our GDP would improve tremendously if we could just get more of the population here into work. And there's a lot in the book about reforming welfare and a lot of the books about helping people to acquire the skills and indeed the confidence to work. So what I suppose what I'm getting at is of course in the context of the uk, if we could get more people into work, that would be a great thing. But it can't be any old work because one of the reasons we're in the mess we're in is because too many people are in poverty and yet are in work.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Totally agree. And I think what I do in the book is I look all over the world and I try and look at the best things in every country. Now, America is brilliant at innovation and growing global tech giants. They're very good at giving their local cities proper autonomy to solve their own problem. They actually have a lower proportion of adults in work than we have in Britain. And when it comes to getting more people in work, I think the most interesting models are countries like the Netherlands, Denmark and Switzerland. And let's look at the heart of the problem. If you live in London and you're on the three main benefits for people out of work, which is the local housing allowance, personal independence payment and universal credit health component, and you're living in a one bedroom flat, you'll get about £46,000 from the state. If you work full time on the national living wage after tax, you get £22,000. Yeah, if you're a Middlesbrough, by the way, on those three benefits you get £31,000, so you still get like 50% more. And it's just not possible to have a modern economy with those sorts of incentives. Now, I fully accept these are difficult reforms, particularly for a Labour government and we all know the trouble they've had. But let me give you an example of the kind of reform that could transform this, which patently left or right, north or south, I think most people would say makes sense. So if you have moderate anxiety or depression at the moment by Citing this. It can up your number of points in the benefit system and then help you to qualify for not having to look for work.

[Steph McGovern]

So it's too easy.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, when I was Health Secretary, every psychiatrist that I met said that if you've got anxiety and depression, which are real conditions, the one thing you need is social contact. And, you know, if you sign people off having to look for work, you're actually making them more isolated, you're making the condition work for a fraction of the cost of their benefits Bill. We could be giving them talking therapies by expanding the services that the NHS offer and actually get people back into work.

[Steph McGovern]

And for me, though, a lot of the reason why you have, and particularly we talk about the NEETs, the 1 million young people not in education, employment or training. If you look at, you know, the mental health problems in that community, it stems from school. A lot of them have been written off at school. They don't have the structure at home to do well academically. But the Conservative government, particularly where Michael Gove was Education Secretary, was all about rigorous academics. It was all about, you have gotta come out with all this knowledge based curriculum and you were a failure if you didn't come out with that. So therefore you've got this cohort of young people who feel like they don't have any skills because no one's valued any vocational training they've done. There's this obsession with getting your GCSE in English and maths and obviously we need literacy and numeracy. But does it have to be this rigorous knowledge based curriculum that gets them there? And that's why we've got all these young people who are just disengaged because they've been told they're not smart and yet they probably are. They can probably analyze risk better than any of us because they've had to survive that way, or they've probably had to talk themselves out of situations because their lives are tough and yet we don't ever tell them they're skilled.

[Jeremy Hunt]

It's. It's such an important problem and we've, we've got this half right and half wrong. And I think the half right. By the way, I'm a big supporter of Michael Gove's school reforms, but actually it wasn't just Michael Gove. The reforms we've had over the last 30 years, going back actually to Ken Clark and David Blunkett, have introduced rigor into English state schools that have made them some of the best in the world. Our reading standards are the highest in Western Europe our maths standards have been catching up with.

[Steph McGovern]

Is that what the workplace needs, though? Because AI is going to be able to do all that for us, I

[Jeremy Hunt]

think basic skills, it needs communication, we

[Steph McGovern]

need to be able to communicate with each other.

[Jeremy Hunt]

But basic skills like reading and maths are going to be fundamental because what AI is going to do is mean people do several different careers in their life and constantly need to retrain. And if you can't read, retraining is very, very hard.

[Robert Peston]

I don't think anybody disagrees that English and maths are absolutely core and everybody's got to get them. But I think, you know, there are two points. Well, I, I certainly think that, but I think. But the bigger point is we haven't vocational skills training. And secondly, because we are going through this artificial intelligence revolution, social, economic, and it will be governmental as well. You know, I would argue that the current curriculum is absolutely not fit for purpose because, you know, what people ought to be concentrating on are skills to do with deploying AI, and a lot of them are to do with developing skills of teamworking, resilience, creativity. None of that is part of the curriculum here. Many other countries are already trying to adapt their curriculums in ways we're just not.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, I think overall, I genuinely think that our state schools have really transformed over the last three decades. In many cases they're better than independent schools, which cost a lot of money. But the bit that I think we've got wrong is that the 50% of school leavers who don't go to university and our universities have done very well overall. But, you know, if they were in Switzerland or Singapore or Germany, they would leave with vocational skills. That meant they could be confident they would earn the average income for the country, which in the UK is about 39,000 pounds. Not immediately, but over the course of their working life they would be able to build up to that average. And I don't think we give that cohort, the people who don't go to university, the practical skills. I couldn't agree with you more, Robert. In an age of AI, we need to think very hard about what those practical skills are. But I think this has been the missing link in education.

[Steph McGovern]

They are essential skills for everyone, though it's not 50% need practical skills and 50% need academic. Everyone needs these skills because you're also getting loads of people coming out of uni that aren't work ready. So it's not one group is this and one group is that. It's everyone needs them and the Curriculum isn't doing that at the moment.

[Jeremy Hunt]

It's a fair point. And I think, look, there's an upheaval going on on all over the world because of the onset of AI. All I would say is that, you know, let's also be glass half full. The UK produces more AI trained graduates than anywhere else in Europe. London is one of the two global AI hubs, alongside San Francisco, according to Elon Musk. And so I think we do have, actually, on the tech side, we've got a lot of stuff going on.

[Robert Peston]

We have, yeah. We do talk a lot about that on the podcast. So I just want to take you back to, though, some of the more sort of basic questions, basic questions for government. So you made what I think many people would agree with the point about how mental health support through the NHS has been inadequate. And I think truthfully, it is still grotesquely inadequate. If you look at the OECD statistics about how we compare in terms of welfare spending to other countries, the way that they measure it is they actually lump together, you know, pensions, payments, support for the unemployed and health spending. Right. And if you lump all that together, we are in the middle of the pack. Would that suggest to you that even though there is a very strong case that the NHS is not productive enough, that nonetheless, actually we've just got the balance wrong, you know, when it comes to where we spend the money, that actually more money needs to go into health support if you're going to have any chance of actually reducing the money that you spend on paying people to stay at home.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Look, we are going to need to spend more on the NHS as the population ages and we have to be realistic about that. But what I'm saying in the book is, you know, if I. If I think about those very chaotic first few hours when I was Chancellor, what is the. When it comes to economic growth, what is the one thing that I wish someone had told me right at the very start, it is that the way that you unlock economic growth is not difficult. There's actually widespread agreement amongst economists and there's widespread agreement across the political spectrum. But the thing is, most of the things you do will take five years before they show through in the figures, at least. So you've got to be really determined. If you talk about, like the planning reform that make it easier to build a nuclear power station, which ridiculously takes about 20 years in this country, if you change the law so that it only takes. Takes 10 years, that would be a good thing. But you won't see it in that parliament. And so what you have to do is two things. First of all, you have to be really determined really early and get those things done quickly while you've got the political capital. But secondly, amongst all the things you can do, there are two or three things that would have an almost immediate impact and concentrate on those because they will show through in the numbers. Now, one of those is getting more people into work.

[Robert Peston]

Work.

[Jeremy Hunt]

It reduces the amount you pay in benefits and it also increases the number of people in work. It means the taxes paid are higher. It helps the economy expand.

[Robert Peston]

The other Would you have liked to have done something much bolder on child. Because you did do childcare reform. You did provide much bigger subsidies for childcare, but I think you actually wanted to be more ambitious.

[Jeremy Hunt]

I did, and I would have liked to have done. If I have a probably my biggest regret, actually, as chancellor is that I didn't crack into welfare reform right at the start, because I did crack into it, but I did it after a year. But can I just say, say welfare reform is one that has a pretty immediate impact for Rachel Reeves, thinking about, you know, finding money within her fiscal rules, that would be a big help. But the other one that has a very immediate impact, which I know you, Robert, talk about a lot on the different media channels you're on, is, is bringing down energy prices.

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Because literally everything in the economy uses energy and we have the highest energy prices for business about, you know, the, about 75% lower in America, but even in France, they're 35% lower. And, you know, this is something where I think, you know, we have the madness of the four largest offshore wind farms in the world off the North Sea, and yet we have to switch off half the electricity they generate.

[Robert Peston]

Don't say it, because I weep every time anybody talks about that on that point.

[Steph McGovern]

So upsetting on that point, though, because you said this right at the start about, you know, all the different geopolitics and pandemics and everything else we had in that, you know, last, last 10, 20 years. But we always get hit hardest. You know, take the situation with Iran now in the Middle east. It's us that everyone's talking about as being the inflation. You know, we're going to be hit hardest by inflation. So what can we do about that as well? So we stop here in chancellors, blame all these, these geopolitical situations that we have no control over.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Here's the funny thing, Steph, and this is, you know, one of the things that probably Rachel Reeves and I actually have in common. We always get hit hardest by the commentators who say Britain's going to suffer the most and then we always get the biggest upgrades when afterwards they say we're not actually quite as different to other countries and we've just had an upgrade this week. Yeah, and. And the truth is actually that we have not done badly compared, you know, over the last 15 years we've grown faster than countries like France and Germany and Japan, but we haven't done as well as we need to. And the point about this book, what I'm trying to say to people, actually put aside your party politics, actually, we can do this and there are some very practical things we need to do. You've got to have resolve, you've got to get cracking quickly. We may have in the next few months a new Chancellor and a new Prime Minister and if that happens, they may have a bit of a honeymoon and that is the time to crack into these things. Crack into it and actually do the things that could make a longer term difference.

[Steph McGovern]

So one quick question then, because I know Robert's got another one on that, then if you're saying, you know, we are. The commentators of not are not getting it right. They think we're hit hardest, but we're not. But the bond markets react as well, don't they? And that is an immediate impact. That is instantly the borrowing costs go up. So it's not just about people talking about it. There is a genuine, tangible impact impact.

[Jeremy Hunt]

It's true. And there are lots of different reasons why we have to pay more for our debt. But let me make a bigger point about debt because I think this is something that we need to talk about a lot more. You know, if you look at the £110 billion we pay in debt interest, which is more than we spend on the entire armed forces, it's more than. It's nearly three times what we spend on the police. And then you add to it the pensions for civil servants, which, which we have to also fund as a liability of the state and for retired doctors and nurses and so on. This comes to about 19 pence on income tax. Those very, very high levels of debt. That is a drag anchor on growth in the economy. That's money that doesn't go into building nuclear power stations, it doesn't go into buying things that cause the shops to boom and factories to boom. And in the end, and it's not sustainable. And I think we have to ask ourselves whether it is morally right to pass on this kind of level of debt to our children. And grandchildren, not least because it is condemning them to the kind of low growth we've got now. So what's the solution? Because let's not. I don't want to talk about problems. Let's talk about. I think it's very straightforward. I think that all governments of all colors should just adopt a very simple, you know, what Rachel Reeves calls a fiscal rule, but a very simple rule which says that we will not grow public spending what the state spends faster than economic growth. Because the root cause of this problem is that over many years we've been growing the spending by the state faster than the economy. And that is, in the end, going to lead to bankruptcy.

[Robert Peston]

There is a connected question. We should be concerned about bequeathing huge debts to our children and their children. The biggest part of the welfare budget is what we spend on pensioners. This is reforming the growth in essentially payments to those who've retired has just been too politically difficult for any government. You didn't do it. You do think, though, that the time has come to reform the triple lock, don't you? So what would you do?

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, I think it does need to be reformed because I think that if pensioners knew that their very generous pensions are ultimately really being funded by debt piling up on their children and grandchildren, I think they would think again as to whether it's the right policy. But I don't think. What would the rule be for you? Well, I think you could. It would need to be part of a bigger change in pensions policy. And I actually think Australia's got a very good pension system. That's the one I think we should learn the most from. But I think you could link pensions to prices or to incomes, but I think this.

[Robert Peston]

But not both.

[Jeremy Hunt]

But not both at the same time. But I just want to say something a little bit more positive because all these are kind of difficult reforms. I think that if you step back and you really look at Britain and our opportunities, we've got some brilliant things going for us. And it's worth reminding ourselves of these because there is a lot of doom and gloom outside the United States. We have the most respected universities in the world. And what does that mean? It means that we have huge numbers of startups in science parks and business. Business parks across the country. Not just in Oxford and Cambridge and London. Across the country, we have the third largest tech ecosystem in the world. In the century of AI, we're a huge services economy, which is the direction all these things are going. And I think, you know, British innovation

[Robert Peston]

is amazing, but Can I ask you what there is a connected question which was, which I do think which is, I know something you thought about when you were Chancellor and you know, again, Steph and I are talking an enormous amount about, you know, not only our amazing universities, but just the vibrancy of the tech sector, life sciences, AI and all the rest of it. But there were some stats out this week which showed that just so far this year, overseas interests have bought listed businesses worth £150 billion. British businesses have been bought by foreign companies. The numbers of businesses actually floating on the London Stock Exchange is about, I don't know, it's trivial. I mean it's like a billion or something. I'm not even sure it's as much as that. But basically this is just one aspect. I mean the more worrying aspect is just the sheer number of the startups that when they get to a certain size, in order they feel to become global leaders, they sell out to either a San Francisco interests or Singapore interests. You know, you looked at the problem that British capital is not backing Britain. It's still a grotesque problem.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, I didn't just look at it. I actually put in place a major program of reforms called the Mansion House Reform norms to address it. And Rachel Reeves has followed that up. She and I complete agreement on this. And, and we've just had a new act passed that will address precisely that issue and will mean that pension funds consolidate and start to invest in, you know, very promising startup companies. Not just in Britain, but in Britain as well as other countries. But this is my point really. I mean there we do have, we do have a glass half empty problem that our unicorns, our new tech companies tend to get bought or float overseas. But 10 years ago we didn't have the unicorns. And you know what we were saying 10 years ago, I remember this, I was culture Secretary responsible for the tech industry in 2010. And people say we invent all the amazing things and then other countries commercialize it. Well, now we are actually commercializing. We've got these amazing companies. The reason, I just want to give you a note of optimism because all the books that I write, I want to give people hope. And this is what I would say. My kids are 11, 14 and 15. You've met them, Robert. And if I was saying, you know, which country do you want to make your fame and fortune in? Which is the most exciting country in the world? Well, of course economically America is very exciting, but it's also very polarized country. I would say outside America, I can't find anywhere where the opportunities are as good as they are.

[Robert Peston]

Yeah, we would agree, I'm sure, but we are very much optimists, Steph and I. But I'm going to pose something that I've heard Steph pose before to you, which is the missing link in all of this is if you look, I mean there are some literally mind bogglingly brilliant businesses at the moment that are raising billions based in London and fingers crossed they'll stay British, right? But if you are in Middlesbrough, you think to yourself what is the connection between these people getting unbelievably rich in London and my life when I can barely afford to pay for the basics? And so the missing link in all of this is how does one connect what is sort of economic, definitely economic success, but how do you connect that with the lives of people who just look at what's been happening in this country for 20 years and say Westminster just has done nothing for me and these businesses that are incredibly successful have done nothing for me. How do you make that connection?

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, it's the most important question to ask because people, not just in Middlesbrough but actually, yeah, it's everywhere.

[Steph McGovern]

I don't want to make this on

[Jeremy Hunt]

about Middlesbrough are losing confidence in capitalism and actually some of them are losing confidence in democracy. They're saying this system is bust, it doesn't work for me. And what you realize is that over my political lifetime time, it's not that globalization is a bad thing, that free trade is a bad thing, that London being super successful international city is a bad thing. It is that we have not been good at spreading opportunity. And I think it relates back to what we discovered, what we talked about right at the start, which is that we haven't given regions the power to sort out their own problems.

[Steph McGovern]

And also I just want to make that point on capitalism because I think people think that if you are not living in one of the these wealthy areas, you don't want to make loads of money for yourself, but you do. There's plenty of people in Middlesbrough, but also all over the country, not in the, the media and political bubble wearing who do want to make money for themselves and make profit and you know, do what they like with it. So it's not that, but it's, it's your point of there's no opportunity to do that and certainly no opportunity to stay where they are. They have to move to do it.

[Jeremy Hunt]

But these are solvable problems. And you know, if you're talking about, about let's call it the Middlesbrough issue,

[Steph McGovern]

my God, you know, let's go. You talk about that.

[Jeremy Hunt]

You can look at other countries. You can look at, yeah, Germany or Japan, where they have actually evened out opportunities across the whole country. There is no difference in the standard of living between Tokyo and Osaka or between Munich and Berlin and, you know, even France. The difference as, as Robert was saying, between Lyon and Paris is half that between London and Manchester. So other countries have done this. We can absolutely do this, but we've got some things that none of those other countries have got in the age of AI, We've got some amazing things happening right here in the uk. So I don't think this is a time to lose hope. I think it's a time to actually say, look, these problems are solvable and the solutions are in plain sight.

[Steph McGovern]

Can I just give you one example to just exemplify what I mean when we've talked about Middlesbrough? I bought a house in Middlesbrough when I was in my early 20s. I was working in London but couldn't afford to buy one in London. So I bought a house in Middlesbrough for 125 grand. I sold it 20 years later for 125 grand. So that is like, you know, and it wasn't one I could ever really live in because my job was in London. And so that's the issue here. It's that every. Everything you think will help make you rich.

[Jeremy Hunt]

If you've been buying property five years ago, you'd have done far better buying it in Millsburg than in London. It got right down in value.

[Steph McGovern]

And also the rental. Rentals is a better margin and everything anyway. But it's just that for everything that's tangible to normal people, it feels like it hasn't got better. And that's the point of all this, isn't it? It's like, how do we make people feel like their lives have got better?

[Jeremy Hunt]

Correct. And I think it's important, though, to do this in a way that is about substance and not about spin. You know, when, you know, when I was in government, we said we're going to focus on the cost of living. Keir Starmer said he's going to focus on the cost of living. And normally you'll get a kind of gimmicky announcement at a budget about reducing electricity bills by this or reducing, you know, another bill by that.

[Steph McGovern]

So you admit you do gimmicks at the start.

[Jeremy Hunt]

There's too much gimmicks on all sides in politics. And the truth is that, you know, the things that would unlock economic growth, like empowering regional mayors to sort out problems like. Like properly transforming the welfare system so that people have incentives to take jobs and not remain parked on welfare. Like sorting out the planning rules so we can actually get stuff built. Those are the things that would really make a difference in terms of transforming the prospects for families in this country. And we should build our case on the things that would really make a difference. Not the sort of, not the kind of, the gimmicky things that tend to find their way into budgets.

[Robert Peston]

Which I think is. Yeah, positive note, probably to draw this door close. What do you think?

[Steph McGovern]

Yeah, very much so. Let me tell everyone the name of your book again. So this is Can We Be Rich Again?

[Robert Peston]

The Extraordinary Potential for the second edition. I'll email you through an alternative title.

[Jeremy Hunt]

You can, but I think this title is going to be a winner because I don't think there's anyone in the country who doesn't want to be rich and doesn't think that it was easier before than it is today day.

[Steph McGovern]

Okie dokie. Excellent. Jeremy, thank you for your time.

[Robert Peston]

Discussion as always.

[Steph McGovern]

That's it from us and the rest is money. Bye bye.

[Robert Peston]

Goodbye.

[Steph McGovern]

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