121. Yulia Navalnaya: The Woman Who Could Bring Down Putin

Summary

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The Rest Is Politics: Leading

Episode 121 – Yulia Navalnaya: The Woman Who Could Bring Down Putin

Release Date: February 17, 2025
Hosts: Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart
Guest: Yulia Navalnaya

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart sit down with Yulia Navalnaya, widow of slain Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny. Yulia discusses her personal history, the legacy and vision of her husband, the climate of Russian politics under Vladimir Putin, and how she and her family continue the fight for democracy in Russia. The conversation explores leadership, loss, authoritarianism, and the prospects for Russia’s future, presenting a rare and candid glimpse into resistance under one of the world’s most repressive regimes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction & Context

• Navalny’s Legacy & Death:
  • Alexei Navalny, prominent anti-corruption campaigner and critic of Putin, died in a Russian penal colony under suspicious circumstances in February 2024.
  • Yulia makes clear from the start: “He was killed by Vladimir Putin and I will continue to repeat it. It's very important to know that Vladimir Putin is not just dictator, he is mafia boss. He is murder. He is a war crime.” (Yulia Navalnaya, 04:37)
• Yulia’s Current Role:
  • Now a key face of Russian opposition, Yulia steps into the limelight as both a political actor and the guardian of Navalny’s legacy.

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Yulia Navalnaya’s Background

• Upbringing & Education:
  • Born and raised in Moscow to a family of engineers; lost her father at age 18.
  • Studied international relations at university and briefly worked in banking before supporting Alexei’s political career.
    • “I wanted to live in my own country. I love my country like my husband very much. I was born very, like, simple Soviet family.” (05:46)
• Family Life:
  • Family remains in Russia, including both her mother and Navalny’s parents, who wish to stay close to their roots and, for Alexei’s parents, to his grave.
    • “They're old people, they spent all their life in Russia. They don't want to change country...it's very important for them to be close to Alexei, to the cemetery.” (09:00)

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Early Political Consciousness

• Formative Years:
  • Both she and Alexei were “children of perestroika,” growing up during the collapse of the Soviet Union and brief years of democratization (07:28).
• Interest in Politics:
  • Yulia and Alexei shared political discussions from early in their relationship, shaping each other’s perspectives.
    • “I think it was one of the reasons why he married me, because it was interesting for him to discuss politics...” (10:02)
  • From the beginning, both distrusted Putin as a democrat:
    • “We never thought in our family, we never thought that there could be any positive changes after Putin became a president.” (12:35)

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The Putin System: Analysis & Critique

• Mafia State Analogy:
  • Yulia characterizes Putin as a mafia boss with a tsar complex, surrounded by “full loyalty” and enabled to act with impunity due to the absence of power checks.
    • “Of course, as people who were a little bit more involved in politics...it was obvious that he's going to bring it back to Russia.” (12:35)
    • “He behaves now like Tsar... he takes a lot of decisions just by him on...to keep your power.” (12:52)
• Risks & Threats:
  • On the danger Alexei faced: his rise was gradual (“step by step”) and the growing risks always apparent, but Yulia viewed supporting his mission as paramount.
    • “I just realized very quickly that it's very important to support him. He's doing the right things... I almost never had any fears, probably once or twice.” (14:50)

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Opposition & Political Climate in Russia

• Difficulty of Dissent:
  • Practically impossible to operate as an opposition figure inside Russia:
    • “It's almost not possible to do anything inside Russia against Putin because you will be thrown in prison... even for a like in social media.” (23:13)
• Exile & External Pressure:
  • Most opposition figures are now abroad; Yulia’s primary mission is to maintain international attention on Russia’s internal struggle.
    • “We need to be loud. We need to direct all the attention to Russia.” (26:23)
• Family Safety and Sacrifice:
  • Yulia acknowledges risk but sees her responsibility as carrying on the fight:
    • “After Alexei's murder, I feel even much more responsibility than before.” (28:11)
  • Children learn of Alexei’s death through the news; Dasha, their daughter, now offers advice and support.
    • “You don't have your father any longer. It's very difficult for any child.” (29:09)

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Media, Social Media, and Communication

• Adaptation to Censorship:
  • Navalny’s success in reaching Russians owes much to his early, innovative use of social media as mainstream avenues were blocked:
    • “He was blocked from everywhere. That's why he has no choice to use new social media... he all the time was trying to [find] new sources from which he is able to bring this information to his supporters...” (17:11)
  • Even advocated for use of TikTok to reach younger Russians.
    • Humorous moment:
      “He believes in TikTok... he thinks that it's very important platform now in Russia... Why I was scared because he usually tries to involve me in such kind of things... to do a lot of tiktoks.” (17:11)

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The Return to Russia & Navalny’s Imprisonment

• Returning After Poisoning:
  • Yulia understood Alexei’s determination to return to Russia after his poisoning; he wished to be an example—accepting risk as part of his role.
    • “He wanted to be this example...we knew that it could be dangerous...Alexei wasn't crazy at all. He was very rational in a good way...” (20:37)
• Life and Death in Prison:
  • Isolated under intentionally harsh conditions designed to minimize contact and influence, Navalny spent time alone even during exercise and had all correspondence censored.
    • “It was a small room, a really small, like 3 to 3 meters... there were no any prisoners with whom he was able to communicate at all. He all the time was alone.” (33:31)
  • News of Alexei’s death reached Yulia through the media, due to heavy censorship and extreme isolation.
    • “So I got everything from the news as well.” (32:31)

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Navalny’s Legacy: The Book “Patriot”

• About ‘Patriot’:
  • Combines Alexei’s biography with his prison diaries, developed despite strict censorship.
    • “It's about his legacy...to understand what a person he was speaking about, the details, how it was, was like picked all together and so on. It was very difficult…” (36:45)
  • Methods of extracting content from prison are kept confidential for safety.

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Russia, Ukraine, and Global Politics

• On the War with Ukraine:
  • Putin’s war is an “awful situation... I think that's about Vladimir Putin's vision of not just Russia, but his country. I think that he's dreaming about back to Soviet Union.” (38:08)
  • Yulia expresses dismay at the West’s inertia and insufficient pressure on Putin:
    • “I'm really strong, sorry that still the world politicians couldn't do anything to put bigger pressure on Putin to stop this war.” (38:08)
• Sanctions & Western Policy:
  • Expresses frustration at ineffective sanctions and lack of a coherent Western strategy to pressure the regime.
    • “If you impose sanctions, you just need to take a look sometimes what's going on...These sanctions, they need to bring to somewhere, but they are just...I don't think I can see any strategy...” (43:07)
• Common Western Misunderstanding:
  • “Vladimir Putin is not Russia and Russia is not Vladimir Putin.” She stresses the need to recognize the vast number of Russians who oppose the regime (46:38).

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Looking Ahead: The Opposition’s Future

• Not Just a Person, But a Process:
  • Yulia pushes for institutional overhaul rather than a new “great man.”
    • “It's not about person, it's about procedure...I'm thinking about their elections and procedures to make all these procedures democratic.” (25:40)
• Yulia as a Politician?:
  • “I think I'm politician.” (40:40)
  • Long-term goal: restore democracy and keep the connection alive with supporters inside Russia.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Putin:
  • "He is mafia boss. He is murder. He is a war crime. And it's very important to remember about this." (04:37, Yulia Navalnaya)
• On Opposition:
  • "You will be thrown in prison...for likes in social media." (23:13)
• On Grief and Responsibility:
  • “Of course it will stay with me or not. I think I'm sure that it will stay with this grief with me all the life. But life is continuing and I need to do everything what is possible, you know, to cope the grief, all this work, all this Alexei's legacy, it helps me a lot, of course.” (32:39, Yulia Navalnaya)
• On Western Views:
  • “Vladimir Putin is not Russia and Russia is not Vladimir Putin.” (46:38)
• Meeting Vladimir Putin?
  • “I never wanted and I don't want to meet Vladimir Putin… he all the time lies. He all the time [is] between. That's why I don't think that I would love to speak with him…” (47:54)

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Key Timestamps

• 04:37 – Yulia’s opening on Alexei’s murder and Putin’s regime
• 07:28 – Life in Soviet/post-Soviet Russia; family background
• 10:02 – Early political discussions and activism
• 12:35 – Putin’s rise and character
• 14:50 – Facing risk as Navalny’s profile grew
• 17:11 – Role of social media in Russian opposition
• 20:37 – Why Alexei returned to Russia after poisoning
• 23:13 – Repression and dangers for the opposition in Russia
• 26:23 – Strategy: the need for international attention
• 28:11 – Yulia on personal risk and increased responsibility
• 29:09 – Children’s reactions to loss and ongoing struggle
• 33:31 – Life in the penal colony, censorship, and isolation
• 36:45 – The creation of “Patriot” and smuggling diaries
• 38:08 – War with Ukraine: Putin’s motives and global failure
• 43:07 – On sanctions and the West’s lack of strategy
• 46:38 – “Putin is not Russia; Russia is not Putin”
• 47:54 – Would she meet Putin? “No wish to meet him…”

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Host Reflections & Closing Thoughts

• Campbell’s Impression:
  • “It is courage and it is leadership… until Putin dies or disappears or falls, it’s going to be very hard to mount any kind of real opposition inside Russia.” (49:07)
• Stewart’s Closing:
  • Compares safety and nature of Western politics to existential risks of opposition politics in authoritarian states.
  • “The Gulf is unbelievable... you realize that politics isn’t quite like our politics, that it's demanding something entirely existential.” (50:43)

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Summary

This episode offers a courageous and deeply human account of life and resistance under Putin’s Russia. Through the lens of loss and leadership, Yulia Navalnaya presents both a sobering and inspiring vision for democratic revival, underscoring the personal cost and persistent hope embodied by Russia’s dissident movement.

Transcript

[Alistair Campbell]

Thanks for listening to the Rest is Politics. Sign up to the Rest is Politics plus to enjoy ad free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com this

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[Rory Stewart]

Hello and welcome to Restless Politics Leading

[Alistair Campbell]

with me Rory Stewart and with me Alistair Campbell.

[Rory Stewart]

And today we're joined by Yulia Navalnaya and she has become a very prominent figure following the death of of her husband Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader. And Alexei Navalny has had an extraordinary life which ended in a penal colony in which he died in very mysterious circumstances as far as his family's concerned. Murdered by Vladimir Putin and certainly having been the victim of a Russian chemical attack on a plane earlier, which he barely recovered from in a hospital in Germany. Just a quick introduction to who Alexei Navalny was to remind people he was born in Soviet era Russia to a father of Ukrainian descent, trained as a lawyer, entered politics in the early 2000s with something called the Yabloko Party, then became very well known for anti corruption work. So he established an anti Corruption foundation in 2011 and one of the things he was very, very quick to do was to used social media. So he put out some of the very earliest stuff showing Putin spending hundreds of millions on building a palace. He drew attention to the fact that Putin was wearing watches worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. He exposed oligarchy and essentially created the first real portrait of a Putin gangster state. Very, very dangerous. He courted controversy. So some of his critics accused him of having Russian nationalist views which he later moved away from and very much embraced democracy. He had a connection to Yale University where he studied as a young global leader and began to study social media and organizing. 2020, as I said, he was poisoned by Novichok by the Russian intelligence services on a flight, returned to Russia in 2021 where he was immediately arrested and given a nine year prison sentence. He he was sent to a series of penal colonies, finally one up in the Arctic Circle and died in February 2024. Over to you, Alastair.

[Alistair Campbell]

Essentially Yulia Navalnaya is now carrying on his fight. She was an assistant for much of this time. She was a colleague as well as a wife. I met the daughter Dasha in Oslo a few months ago. Incredibly impressive young woman. She too is trying to carry on her father's name and the fight against Russia. So lots to talk about and I think important to remember right you. In fact, she'll emphasize right from the start that he didn't die, he was murdered. That is a very, very important part of their fight. And they've also produced this book called Patriot, which I think is going to be an important part of their, of their fight going forward. So I don't know where she was when we interviewed her. They keep movements pretty quiet for fairly obvious reasons. But I was in France and Roy was in Switzerland. And you go meet Yulia Navalnaya.

[Rory Stewart]

Welcome to the rest is politics.

[Alistair Campbell]

Leading with me, Rory Stewart and with me, Alistair Campbell. And we're absolutely thrilled to have Yulia Navalnaya, who is probably more well known than she wants to be, if I can put it like that. She's well known because her husband, Alexei Navalny, was one of the foremost critics of Vladimir Putin. He, he is now dead for his troubles. But Yulia and also her daughter Dasha, who I met in Oslo recently, are keeping up the fight. They met, she and Alexei met on a bus in Turkey when they were both in their early 20s and they've been on quite a journey ever since. So, Yulia, thank you very, very much for your time. It's lovely to see you.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Thank you very much, Alistair. And it's a great pleasure to be be on your podcast. I should be honest, I have some friends in Great Britain and so before you suggested me to join you, they told me, many of them, that they hear your podcast and it's the best political podcast in Great Britain. So I'm very thrilled. But from the other side, I'm very scared. But still, it's great honor to join you. There is just small remark. You said that my husband was dead, but I would say he was killed by Vladimir Putin and I will continue to repeat it. It's very important to know that Vladimir Putin is not just dictator, he is mafia boss. He is murder. He is a war crime. And it's very important to remember about this. Thank you.

[Alistair Campbell]

Thank you.

[Rory Stewart]

Juliet, tell us a little bit about yourself and your childhood and where you grew up and what your parents did and how you formed as a character.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Wow. We started from such a long, long time back things. Well, I was born In Moscow. I spent all my life in Moscow. I never thought that I will change the country of living. I wanted to live in my own country. I love my country like my husband very much. I was born very like simple Soviet family. I graduated from university where I studied international relations. I worked a little bit in a bank sphere. But then very soon after that I married to my husband. He started to work in politics. And then we just realized that because of searches, because of the all political pressure, which we got very, very quickly and many years ago, I cared about family more and I was very happy to help my husband to be very confident in it. I hope that he knew that he had a strong back and I was trying not to be. You know, just think about family. Of course it was my priority. It's still my priority, especially now after Alexei's murder. But still, of course it was all the time like sharing the views, understanding that it's very important. Everything what my husband had been doing for a long, long time.

[Alistair Campbell]

When you were growing up, were you somebody who had strong political views?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

You know, me and Alexei, we grew up in Soviet Union. Our childhood was in Soviet Union, but our formation as I can call it, when we were teenagers. So Soviet Union fallen. So we are children of perestrovka, I could say. And Alexei and me, we have very simple families, normal families, but families who were very invol in politics because there were years when everybody was involved in politics in Russia, but there were like few years, unfortunately.

[Rory Stewart]

Julia, what did your mother do? What did your father do? What were their jobs? When were they born? Where did they come from?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

My mom is engineer. She was born in Moscow. My father was born in Moscow as well. He's engineer as well too. My father died when I was 18 and my mom, she still lives in Moscow.

[Alistair Campbell]

When I met Dasha in Oslo, she was telling me that Alexei's parents still live in Russia.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

There are both of us and mine and Alexei parents. They are still in Russia. That's right.

[Alistair Campbell]

How do they feel when they know that the regime murdered their son? They still have to live there. They still presumably have friends there. I presume that your mother now probably is quite worried about you. I just wonder how your family deal with living in Russia.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Well, it's better to ask them, but of course you're right. But I don't think it's about living in Russia because Russia is their home country. It's about terrible situation and terrible tragedy which happened in their life. But they're old people, they spent all their life in Russia. They don't want to change country. My mom still works and I think that it keeps her to be strong. She has a lot of friends and to leave country now, I don't think it's a choice for her. And for Alexei's parents, I think that the same. But also of course it's very important for them to be close to Alexei, to the cemetery and of course like fold people, it means a lot.

[Rory Stewart]

Tell us a little bit about the beginning of Alexei's political life. Tell please the listeners a little bit about how he started, what he got involved in, why he got involved.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

He was all the time involved in politics a lot. And when we met, we discussed politics a lot. I think it was one of the reasons why he married me, because it was interesting for him to discuss politics with close friends and then girlfriend and then wife and I interested in politics in my all my life as well. And when Vladimir Putin became a president, the first time he just came to me one day, said like, you know, I really probably remember this moment, like, you know, I decided to go to be more involved in politics, like not kitchen talks, but to participate to one of the, at that time pro democratic parties. And I want to do something because I'm against this regime from the first step I against Putin. And it's very important for me to do this.

[Alistair Campbell]

Was there ever a time when you or he thought that Putin might be moving in a democratic direction, or did he decide very, very early on that he was as bad as he became?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

It's a very good question because a lot of people were very exciting when Putin became the president, or I would say even in power, like prime minister the first time, because comparing to Yeltsin, who still, we should agree, broad democracy, but after that there were some problems with him, but still Putin was, was very young, very active, very enthusiastic. And people who were less involved in politics and just seen this young, strong, full of strength men, and they were hoping that it would change a lot, but it wasn't with us like this because of course, as people who were a little bit more involved in politics, we knew that everybody knew, but still Putin is KGB officer and all this structure which was in Soviet Union, it was obvious that he's going to bring it back to Russia. So no, we never thought in our family, we never thought that there could be any positive changes after Putin became a president.

[Rory Stewart]

What sort of ruler is Vladimir Putin? Is he modeling himself on a traditional communist leader like Stalin, or on a tsar or on a mafia boss? I mean, how would you describe the style of leadership.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Well, let's be honest, I've never seen Vladimir Putin. Probably it's for the best. But from my point of view, nobody wants to be called mafia boss. Of course he wants to be a leader of country. He behaves now like Tsar. Of course it's obvious that he takes a lot of decisions just by him on and it's, you know, like this. Probably he is asking for some kind of advice, but people around him just want to be on the same side and to show him their full loyalty. That's why, you know, everything what he is asking for, they are doing. He wants to be a kind of really like one leader of the country. It's obvious that he understands that he's just one person. And I believe that he believes in it, that he just one person who can bring Russia to beautiful future. And of course it's very dangerous and it's very awful because when the one person stays in power more than 25 years, by the way, could you imagine, of course you believe in everything you do. Of course you understand your position like the ones we can call it whatever leader, tsar, president, but you just understand that you are able to do whatever you want to stay in power, to keep your power.

[Alistair Campbell]

Julia, when, when did you first fear that Alexei's political activity might actually lead to him being such a target that the regime would, would murder him? When did that first cross your mind that he was swimming in very dangerous waters?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

You know, as we conversation from our young years, I would say I almost never thought about or had any fear because we grow up together. It's not just about our age. It's about Alexei's political growing. That's why I seen it. Not like, you know, it became suddenly I seen it from day to day. Like he became popular blogger. Like he became the blogger who has supporters. Like he became the person who established small ngo, anti corruption ngo. Like he became candidate of mayor of Moscow. Like he became the person who established the biggest ngo, anti corruption NGO in Russia. Like he started to have not like, you know, couple thousands of supporters, but a dozen of thousands, then hundreds of thousands and then millions of people who were just following him. Like he became presidential candidate. It was like, you know, so step by step that at every point of time I just had this feeling like I understand that it could be dangerous, but I knew that it's Alexei's life, that he was really person who really believed in everything he was doing. That's why, you know, I just realized very quickly that it's very important to support him. He's doing the right things. He wants to make Russia better place. He wants to do all the world a better place. That's why I just wanted to support him. And I almost never had any fears, probably once or twice. But it's not about arrests or searches.

[Rory Stewart]

And what did you learn from how social media has changed the world? You talked about being a blogger, but now we're in a world of Facebook, of Twitter, of all these type of communications. How does this change the way that politics is done in Russia?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

It's changed a lot because, for example, my husband is very good example to explain it. And he started like blogger and like in Live Journal, if you remember, it was such a platform and it was very popular in Russia. Then he started many of other social media, but especially Twitter. He really liked Twitter and I think that he was very good in it. And Twitter was very good platform. And I liked it very much because it was all the time very easy to got information very fast. It was very easy to find all the news. And it was obvious that people who write on Twitter and have a lot of subscribers, they are very good in, you know, putting together all the thoughts when it was able just to put short tweets. And I just loved it. And I liked Alexei's jokes and I think that he did with social media very well. But it's also because coming back to your question about how social media has changed like the world and many other things like other medias. For example, again, about my husband, why it happened because when he became a popular politician, he was blocked from everywhere. That's why he has no choice to use new social media. And he was in this case very lucky to leave this time because otherwise, you know, when you have just radio blocked, TV blocked, then you don't have any other sources. But at the time he started to do politics and he very quickly was blocked from everywhere. He all the time was trying to new sources from which he is able to bring this information to his supporters and to attract new people. For example, when we were coming back from Germany after his poisoning too, he told me very seriously and I was a little bit scared that he believes in TikTok and TikTok is very big platform now and he's going to develop and put a lot of attention in TikTok because he thinks that it's very important platform now in Russia and it's very important for him. Why I was scared because he usually tries to involve me in such kind of things. And I was just expecting how I Need to do a lot of of tiktoks to think to open my mouth or to change my clothes, probably every day.

[Alistair Campbell]

Judy, you said that when you were, when you were in Germany after his, his poisoning, was there no part of you that thought there is a very, very high chance when he leaves, they've tried to kill him, he survives, he gets treated in Germany. Angela Merkel visits him. It's a big part of, of the book that you've done together. But when he went back, there must have been a very large part of you that thought this is like him imposing a death sentence on himself. They are going to kill him. Did you ever try to say to him, if this costs you life, is it worth doing?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

You're probably asking me this question because you never met Alexei, because I knew that it's very important for him and it's not just words to come back to Russia to be the example for all these people. It's not, you know, about, like, usually you're doing some things, of course, to show the example. He wanted to be this example. He was this example for all these people. And he was sure that people are watching him and he knew that he must be in this first row. Of course, we knew that it could be dangerous. Of course, we, we are not crazy. And Alexei wasn't crazy at all. He was very rational in a good way. And he, of course, I think he weighed all the risks. But, you know, sometimes the history makes the other direction. Of course we knew and it was really very realistic that he would happen to be in prison. But about, you know, murdering, we never thought or probably tried not to think.

[Rory Stewart]

Tell us about his vision for Russia. What if he had become the leader? What would he want Russia to be over the next five, ten years?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

You know, it's very easy to answer because comparing to all democratic countries like the United States or United Kingdom or countries in European Union, you have different political parties, you have supporters in these parties and people have competitions in elections. In Russia, situation is absolutely different. We have Vladimir Putin who is dictator, who is in power for 25 years. And the easiest thing to explain what my husband wanted, for Russia to become back democratic country, with freedom of speech, with fair elections, with people who. And sometimes probably those people are not very pleasant for you, but it should be changeable. So Alexei just wanted democratic, pro European Russia.

[Alistair Campbell]

What is the state of the opposition in Russia now?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

To say the truth, it's almost not possible to do anything inside Russia against Putin because you will be thrown in prison. You know, probably the Cases when people happen to be in prison just for standing on the street alone, like lonely protest with the sheet of papers where it's written no war. And they are taking prison for these. They could be in prison for likes in social media. They could be in prison, of course, for the post in social media. That's why, of course, situation inside Russia very difficult speaking political situation. I mean for position. That's why the most loud speakers now, of course, in exile.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, Julia, Rory, quick break and then back for more.

[Rory Stewart]

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[Yulia Navalnaya]

It's not about person, it's about procedure. So we need to do everything by ourselves and to ask world community as well to help us. But of course I understand it's about Russian people. First of all, to make everything Vladimir Putin will gone. And after that it's about fair elections. As I have already said, I'm not thinking about persons, I'm thinking about their elections and procedures to make all these procedures democratic.

[Rory Stewart]

And how do you do this? I mean, it seems to be very difficult. He kills his opponents. He doesn't allow free elections. So what is your plan for the next five, ten years?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

You know, by now it's very difficult to plan anything because while Vladimir Putin is in power. Everything is absolutely unpredictable. Nobody could, not nobody, but a lot of people, probably more than 1 million people left country after the war has started. I don't think those people ever thought to happen in another countries. That's why it's very difficult to speak about like, you know, some kind of plan. Let's be honest, nobody has this plan, but if I even had this plan, I wouldn't tell you because. Because of many reasons. But it's not possible now. For me, it's absolutely different. We need to be loud. We need to direct all the attention to Russia. I think that last year Russia had been forgotten. And it's very, very dangerous because still Russia is huge country. There are a lot of people live there and to bring and to discuss and to show them that democratic countries and to have democracy in the country, it's very important. It was very important. But in many reasons, I don't know really why it happened, but in many reasons it happened. And I see my main aim to do everything every day, you know, speaking with you, to remind about about Russia, to be on any kind of conferences, doing like some kind of statements and so on, to be more loud and to remember what's going in Russia in political way. And the Vladimir Putin is dictator.

[Alistair Campbell]

Do you not feel at risk?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

I understand, but I think that my husband taught me not to think about it too much. It's important to do what you think is right and continue to do. Of course, after Alexei's murder, I feel even much more responsibility than before, because before he was like politician and I was his wife and also a big supporter. But now, of course, I feel responsibility for him, for our children, for our country, to do whatever I can to stop everything what Vladimir Putin had already done is doing and will do.

[Rory Stewart]

How do your children understand his murder? How do they. How did they experience it? How do they think about it now? How do they think about the risk which you're taking?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

I think that they worry about me very much. Understand it. Dasha, who molester met, she has already grown up. She's more different than daughter. So she supports a lot. She really supports me everywhere in every thing I'm doing. She's smart. She is a person to whom I now can come and ask, ask for advice. Zakhar, he is just 16. He's teenager. That's why he has his special view of life. He's very nice. He's very supportive as well. And it's difficult for me and of course for them. You know, we were very good family when we were four of us, we were together and of course, just realized that you. You don't have your father any longer. It's very difficult for any child. For example, Zakhar, he saw Alexei the last time when he was 12, and now he's 16. So all his teenagers years, which are very hard even for a child in a full family with normal life, very hard. And for the heart, it's much more harder. I understand it. I'm trying to support him as well as I can.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. As you say, I met Dasher in. At an event in Norway. And I have to tell you, you should be incredibly proud. I've. I cannot remember the last time I was so impressed meeting somebody so young and so clever and smart and also just had an incredible wisdom about her, given everything that had happened. And she was telling me, for example, that she heard about her father's death kind of from the news. And she also said, and I wonder if I can ask you this question as well, that she's not sure if she's grieved. And I just wonder whether you've properly grieved and what that was like, or whether you've just been so propelled into feeling you have to carry on the fight.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Thank you so much for your kind words about Dasha. As you understand, for every parent, it's very important to hear such words about their child. I'm very proud, really. And as you said, she knew these. The news about Alexis. There's four from news. The same with me. Because he was in such situation and in such far penal colony that it wasn't possible to get anything from him. Especially last half a year, it was very strong censorship. His lawyers were imprisoned last autumn when he was in prison. So it was like really, really complicated. And they sent him to such a far penal colony that it wasn't possible even to visit him every day. So I got everything from the news as well.

[Alistair Campbell]

And what about grief? Did you. Do you feel that you've grieved or are you still living with it every day?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Well, it's. It's difficult to explain. I don't think that I am in this kind very. Want to be very open and very emotional. I think that of course it will stay with me or not. I think I'm sure that it will stay with this grief with me all the life. But life is continuing and I need to do everything what is possible, you know, to cope the grief, all this work, all this Alexei's legacy, it helps me a lot, of course.

[Rory Stewart]

Julia, can you tell us a Little bit about this penal colony. Where was it, what were the conditions he was living in, what sort of place was it, who else was in the colony, what other kinds of prisoners there were, how his daily life was.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

I will start from then, probably from the last penal colony because he has changed several. Not he, but he was moved from one to another. But you asked me really a funny question. Who else was in this penal colony? Because usually when we speak about penal colony we can imagine the group of people who are living together, who walk together. We can imagine. Nice, for example, sport yard, which we usually see in American Hollywood movies. It's not the same in Russia. Sometimes it's the same. But for my husband they did the most severe conditions which could be. It was a small room, a really small, like 3 to 3 meters. Then it was another room, not a yard, just another room where he was able to walk. This room just didn't have a roof. That's it. And he wasn't allowed all the food they brought him to this room. He wasn't allowed to lie on the bed all the day. And he wasn't allowed, almost wasn't allowed to have any meetings. Like we have short meetings and long meetings with his family for more than one year. He wasn't allowed to make a telephone calls like at all. All the letters from him and to him were censored. For example, speaking about Dasha, she wrote him about her university, about courses which is good, going to take for another semester. And they just burned this letter saying that it's like a kind of things which he couldn't get. I'm not speaking about my letters. I could write anything, just very simple things about my regular life. But they could censor it, I think. Of course it was about isolation. They wanted to isolate him from the people. They knew that he is so charismatic. He is such a strong politician. He is very good in convincing people. He is very nice in speaking people. That's why there were just few people all the time, the same people around him. That's it. And there were no any prisoners with whom he was able to communicate at all. He all the time was alone.

[Alistair Campbell]

The book that you mentioned, which I've read and enjoyed, just tell me how that was put together and whether you see it as part of his ongoing fight. It sort of feels like it's both backward looking and forward looking. Do you see that book as being a very, very important part of an ongoing campaign?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Of course, absolutely. This book, it's very important in general. It's about his legacy. It's about how many people now can read about him through his view about our country. And to understand what a person he was speaking about, the details, how it was, was like picked all together and so on. It was very difficult because a part of the book he wrote very fast because he was really good writer also in Germany. But then it was really, really complicated to get some kind of these diaries. The part with diaries from the prison,

[Alistair Campbell]

of course, just tell our listeners how that, how that happened, how you were actually able to get those extracts out.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Unfortunately, I couldn't tell you because it could bring some people to danger.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, okay. But you basically have put the whole thing together, telling the story of his life and he was writing it at different stages of his life.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Yes, absolutely. That's right.

[Rory Stewart]

Can you tell us a little bit about what the Russian war with Ukraine means, What it tells us about Putin, what it tells us about Russian nationalism, what it tells us us about the future of Russia?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

It means a lot. It's terrible, awful war which should never be gone. I think that's about Vladimir Putin's vision of not just Russia, but his country. I think that he's dreaming about back to Soviet Union. That's why, you know, these signal to some old people who are dreaming, but again, about this period, like how powerful and big Russia was, its signal for them. I don't know, we will see what will it mean in future. But I think that it's the awful situation. Of course we were neighboring countries, we still neighboring countries, but we were very close. As you know, a lot of Russians married to Ukrainians. And for example, Alexei's father is from Ukraine. And of course the situation is absolutely awful, terrible. And I'm really strong, sorry that still the world politicians couldn't do anything to put bigger pressure on Putin to stop this war. I think that it has been done for you to stop it.

[Rory Stewart]

What kind of threat do you think that Putin poses to other countries in Europe, for example, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Moldova?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

You know, I think that I have in this field not very good prediction because now I think that first of all, it's my feeling that whichever threats he sends, still it's very important not to threat on him because he just sometimes trying to scare people just to show his power. But he doesn't do all of his threats. But from the other side, to say the truth, I've never thought that he would start the war with Ukraine. I thought that it's like not possible. Who, like, who would support the war with your neighbor and with your friend? But it happened.

[Alistair Campbell]

Julia, do you now see yourself as a political figure yourself? Do you think you're now a politician?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

I think I'm politician.

[Alistair Campbell]

What are your political objectives?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

My political objectives, as I have already told you, to bring the situation in any ways to make Putin's regime fallen as soon as possible to apply to Russian peoples. I think that people in Russia now in a kind of internal exile are very depressed and very scared of all the situation and all these, these things. People, especially people inside Russia, mostly my husband's supporters who became now my supporters, they in Russia. And it's very important for me to keep this connection with them.

[Alistair Campbell]

But do you hope one day to be a serving politician in Russia, in the Russian democratic system?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

We'll see. I hope I'll have this opportunity, but there is a very, very long way to bring it happen soon.

[Rory Stewart]

What's your economic and social vision for Russia? So Russia has significant problems with its population, aging population, declining population, some problems with the way the economy functions. How would you think about these things?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

It's again bringing us back to the question about when I told you that now it's, for me, it's not about vision of economic and everything. When Vladimir Putin is in 25 years in power. I'm absolutely open in any discussions about economic and some kind of social things in Russia because I think that it's really very important now to change this regime and to bring Russia back to, to democracy. So when we'll come back, I hope that we have like a wide range of opposition and we will have all these discussions. It's long, long way to bring it to the right direction.

[Alistair Campbell]

You met President Biden not long after Alexei's murder. I just wonder what that meeting was like. I wonder what you thought of the current sanctions regime against Putin. And I wondered whether you were, what your views were about how you think Donald Trump views Putin and whether that helps or harms what you're trying to do.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Many questions in one. Starting from the meeting with Joe Biden. It was very good one and I appreciate his support, I appreciate his sincere words. We had very long conversation, probably more, more than one hour before we were told, like it would be like 20 minutes. But still we started to talk and we talked a lot. And speaking about sanctions, it's just not about America. It's about European Union and all countries which impose sanctions. I think that it's not about the war with Ukraine. It started many years ago, for example. How many years? Probably 18 years ago when Putin in Munich security conference had his infamous speech about Confrontation with the West. So he sent the signal. Nothing has been done. Then in 2014, there was an action of Crimea. Nothing has been done. It sounds like joke because sanctions were imposed at that time against probably about 30 people like local officials in Crimea. It sounds really weird. Putin doesn't care about these local officials in Crimea when the war has started. Do you remember there were like a lot of sanctions imposed. A lot of brands closed their shops saying like we are not going to work with Russia any longer and so on. What happened now? Everything the same in Moscow. Everything you can buy. Those sanctions just don't work. I don't know. I think that if you impose sanctions, you just need to take a look sometimes what's going on. Especially I was really surprised this autumn that they were very proud news that they will impose sanctions against Russia. Today the biggest propaganda channel this year, really. And like after the war, after the war in Ukraine continues more two years. So I think that situation with sanctions, I'm not asking about more sanctions. I want these sanctions would be done with more wisdom in understanding what okay you're doing. These sanctions, they need to bring to somewhere, but they are just. I don't think I can see any strategy about these sanctions and where the people who impose these sanctions want the sanctions will bring and what could be changed. And about Donald Trump. Well, we'll see just the beginning.

[Rory Stewart]

My final question, Yulia, what do you think sometimes foreign audiences do not understand about the situation in Russia? When you read foreign commentators talking about your husband or talking about Putin or talking about Russia, what are some mistakes? What do you think the west sometimes misunderstands about the reality in Russia?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

I think that the most right answer will be that Vladimir Putin is not Russia and Russia is not Vladimir Putin. It's very important to remember that there are a lot of people who are against this regime, who are against Vladimir Putin, who against the war. And when you live in democratic country and you have a president, you think that and you believe that he has been chosen by majority of population of your country. But it's not the same in Russia. We don't have elections. You can watch on TV the reports about elections, but they can just change everything. And let's be honest, there are no democratic countries where the president got 80% of votes.

[Alistair Campbell]

Julie, my final question. Thank you so much for your, for your time. You said earlier that you've never met Vladimir Putin. I just wondered in what circumstances might you want to meet Vladimir Putin and what would you say to him?

[Yulia Navalnaya]

I never wanted and I don't want to meet Vladimir Putin. And to say the truth, that I don't have any wish to meet him because from my experience and from experience of my family, he all the time lies. He all the time between. That's why I don't think that I would love to speak with him or to I have anything to speak to tell him.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, thank you for talking to us.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

Thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you.

[Rory Stewart]

Thank you for your time.

[Alistair Campbell]

It was a pleasure.

[Rory Stewart]

Bye. Bye. So, Anasta, it's a horrifying story. As she points out, she's a mother of a young, young daughter and even younger son whose husband disappeared from their lives four years ago and who was locked in solitary confinement in the Arctic Circle and then murdered by Vladimir Putin and who has decided to continue the fight and take up the mantle and speak for him and represent his ideals and lead his party. What did you feel listening to her and. Yeah, engaging with her sense of him,

[Alistair Campbell]

which I already had done when talking to Dasha in Norway. I was at this event that we were both at and spent quite a lot of time talking to her and got a sense of his courage, I think, but also their complete acceptance of his approach. When I read the book, I was trying to think, I mean, Fiona, my Fiona often thinks that I'm a bit sort of of, you know, strong willed and a bit kind of driven and I get obsessive and I, I don't take no for an answer and da, da, da, da. But I think when you set me or something like me alongside him, if somebody tried to kill me in my own country and then I'd been hospitalized in another country, I don't think Fiona would have been, she wouldn't have let me get back on that plane. But both Dasha and now Yulia have said to me it did not even cross their minds because they knew he was going back. Now, that is courage and it is leadership. I was slightly distressed, depressed, a bit down. She seemed to be saying, these aren't her words. I'm paraphrasing and making a surmise here. She seemed to be saying that until Putin dies or disappears or falls, it's going to be very hard to mount any kind of real opposition inside Russia. Yeah, that's quite a. You know, because that was at least when he was alive, there was that feeling of there is an opposition. You can, you can point to a figure of opposition. And although she said it's about the processes, it is ultimately about people and who rise to positions of leadership.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, I suppose That a couple of things. I mean, one of them, of course, is that there is still, you know, even opinion, a lot of support for Putin in Russia and a lot of nationalism in Russia and a lot of people who feel that Russia needs a strongman ruler and that it was weak with its experiment with democracy. So you're running up against a massive authoritarian machine, which is not just saying Putin is the great leader, but this is the system that Russia needs. And the other final thing for me, which I guess relates to what she was saying about you getting on a plane and Fiona not being happy with this, is that we often in the restless politics talk about politics as though you're talking about the same thing in Britain as you might be in other countries. And actually the Gulf is unbelievable. If you are a political leader in Palestine or a political leader in Syria or a opposition leader in Russia, or a political leader in eastern Congo at the moment, or indeed actually even a politician in Jamaica, where there have been extraordinary numbers of assassinations, or in Pakistan where leaders get killed all the time, you realize that politics isn't quite like our politics, that it's demanding something entirely existential, that the level of idealism, courage and acceptance of the risk of death makes it not just a sort of difference in quantity, but a complete difference in moral quality.

[Alistair Campbell]

One of the films that his team, that the Navalny team that are carrying on his work did recently was about a Russian politician who's basically a Russian businessman who uses the fact of being a politician to kind of oil his business and, and be corrupt and corrupt other people. And, you know, we can complain about our politicians, but you just couldn't get away with that sort of thing. Whereas the thing about, you know, fish rotting from the head down, Putin has created a corrupt political system. A corrupt oligarchy presides over it. And I think I, I think he was, Was Navalny the first person to start to push this line that it was a mafia state? I think he might have been so. And it was interesting, Rory, when you asked her sort of what kind of Russia Vladimir Putin led, I think the, the concept that she was most comfortable with was the idea that it was a, it was as a mafia state. Anyway, brave family, brave woman, and good to talk to her.

[Rory Stewart]

Thank you, Alison. Bye.

[Alistair Campbell]

Bye. See you soon. Bye.

[Yulia Navalnaya]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Yulia Navalnaya]

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[Alistair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

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[Yulia Navalnaya]

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[Gordon Corera]

Putin interfere in the US 2016 presidential election? I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist.

[David McCloskey]

And I'm David McCloskey, author and former CIA analyst. And we are the hosts of the Rest Is Classified. And in our latest series, we're going deep inside the 2016 election to reveal the true story of whether the Russians helped Donald Trump take the White House.

[Gordon Corera]

This is the unbelievable story of how Russian spies first hacked and then leaked emails belonging to Hillary Clinton's campaign, how Julian Assange got involved with Putin spies, and how 2016 marked the point that the world changed forever.

[David McCloskey]

Get the full insider scoop by listening to the Rest Is Classified. Wherever you get your podcasts.