The Rest Is Politics: Leading
Episode 121 – Yulia Navalnaya: The Woman Who Could Bring Down Putin
Release Date: February 17, 2025
Hosts: Alastair Campbell & Rory Stewart
Guest: Yulia Navalnaya
Episode Overview
In this episode, Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart sit down with Yulia Navalnaya, widow of slain Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny. Yulia discusses her personal history, the legacy and vision of her husband, the climate of Russian politics under Vladimir Putin, and how she and her family continue the fight for democracy in Russia. The conversation explores leadership, loss, authoritarianism, and the prospects for Russia’s future, presenting a rare and candid glimpse into resistance under one of the world’s most repressive regimes.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Introduction & Context
- Navalny’s Legacy & Death:
- Alexei Navalny, prominent anti-corruption campaigner and critic of Putin, died in a Russian penal colony under suspicious circumstances in February 2024.
- Yulia makes clear from the start: “He was killed by Vladimir Putin and I will continue to repeat it. It's very important to know that Vladimir Putin is not just dictator, he is mafia boss. He is murder. He is a war crime.” (Yulia Navalnaya, 04:37)
- Yulia’s Current Role:
- Now a key face of Russian opposition, Yulia steps into the limelight as both a political actor and the guardian of Navalny’s legacy.
Yulia Navalnaya’s Background
- Upbringing & Education:
- Born and raised in Moscow to a family of engineers; lost her father at age 18.
- Studied international relations at university and briefly worked in banking before supporting Alexei’s political career.
- “I wanted to live in my own country. I love my country like my husband very much. I was born very, like, simple Soviet family.” (05:46)
- Family Life:
- Family remains in Russia, including both her mother and Navalny’s parents, who wish to stay close to their roots and, for Alexei’s parents, to his grave.
- “They're old people, they spent all their life in Russia. They don't want to change country...it's very important for them to be close to Alexei, to the cemetery.” (09:00)
- Family remains in Russia, including both her mother and Navalny’s parents, who wish to stay close to their roots and, for Alexei’s parents, to his grave.
Early Political Consciousness
- Formative Years:
- Both she and Alexei were “children of perestroika,” growing up during the collapse of the Soviet Union and brief years of democratization (07:28).
- Interest in Politics:
- Yulia and Alexei shared political discussions from early in their relationship, shaping each other’s perspectives.
- “I think it was one of the reasons why he married me, because it was interesting for him to discuss politics...” (10:02)
- From the beginning, both distrusted Putin as a democrat:
- “We never thought in our family, we never thought that there could be any positive changes after Putin became a president.” (12:35)
- Yulia and Alexei shared political discussions from early in their relationship, shaping each other’s perspectives.
The Putin System: Analysis & Critique
- Mafia State Analogy:
- Yulia characterizes Putin as a mafia boss with a tsar complex, surrounded by “full loyalty” and enabled to act with impunity due to the absence of power checks.
- “Of course, as people who were a little bit more involved in politics...it was obvious that he's going to bring it back to Russia.” (12:35)
- “He behaves now like Tsar... he takes a lot of decisions just by him on...to keep your power.” (12:52)
- Yulia characterizes Putin as a mafia boss with a tsar complex, surrounded by “full loyalty” and enabled to act with impunity due to the absence of power checks.
- Risks & Threats:
- On the danger Alexei faced: his rise was gradual (“step by step”) and the growing risks always apparent, but Yulia viewed supporting his mission as paramount.
- “I just realized very quickly that it's very important to support him. He's doing the right things... I almost never had any fears, probably once or twice.” (14:50)
- On the danger Alexei faced: his rise was gradual (“step by step”) and the growing risks always apparent, but Yulia viewed supporting his mission as paramount.
Opposition & Political Climate in Russia
- Difficulty of Dissent:
- Practically impossible to operate as an opposition figure inside Russia:
- “It's almost not possible to do anything inside Russia against Putin because you will be thrown in prison... even for a like in social media.” (23:13)
- Practically impossible to operate as an opposition figure inside Russia:
- Exile & External Pressure:
- Most opposition figures are now abroad; Yulia’s primary mission is to maintain international attention on Russia’s internal struggle.
- “We need to be loud. We need to direct all the attention to Russia.” (26:23)
- Most opposition figures are now abroad; Yulia’s primary mission is to maintain international attention on Russia’s internal struggle.
- Family Safety and Sacrifice:
- Yulia acknowledges risk but sees her responsibility as carrying on the fight:
- “After Alexei's murder, I feel even much more responsibility than before.” (28:11)
- Children learn of Alexei’s death through the news; Dasha, their daughter, now offers advice and support.
- “You don't have your father any longer. It's very difficult for any child.” (29:09)
- Yulia acknowledges risk but sees her responsibility as carrying on the fight:
Media, Social Media, and Communication
- Adaptation to Censorship:
- Navalny’s success in reaching Russians owes much to his early, innovative use of social media as mainstream avenues were blocked:
- “He was blocked from everywhere. That's why he has no choice to use new social media... he all the time was trying to [find] new sources from which he is able to bring this information to his supporters...” (17:11)
- Even advocated for use of TikTok to reach younger Russians.
- Humorous moment:
“He believes in TikTok... he thinks that it's very important platform now in Russia... Why I was scared because he usually tries to involve me in such kind of things... to do a lot of tiktoks.” (17:11)
- Humorous moment:
- Navalny’s success in reaching Russians owes much to his early, innovative use of social media as mainstream avenues were blocked:
The Return to Russia & Navalny’s Imprisonment
- Returning After Poisoning:
- Yulia understood Alexei’s determination to return to Russia after his poisoning; he wished to be an example—accepting risk as part of his role.
- “He wanted to be this example...we knew that it could be dangerous...Alexei wasn't crazy at all. He was very rational in a good way...” (20:37)
- Yulia understood Alexei’s determination to return to Russia after his poisoning; he wished to be an example—accepting risk as part of his role.
- Life and Death in Prison:
- Isolated under intentionally harsh conditions designed to minimize contact and influence, Navalny spent time alone even during exercise and had all correspondence censored.
- “It was a small room, a really small, like 3 to 3 meters... there were no any prisoners with whom he was able to communicate at all. He all the time was alone.” (33:31)
- News of Alexei’s death reached Yulia through the media, due to heavy censorship and extreme isolation.
- “So I got everything from the news as well.” (32:31)
- Isolated under intentionally harsh conditions designed to minimize contact and influence, Navalny spent time alone even during exercise and had all correspondence censored.
Navalny’s Legacy: The Book “Patriot”
- About ‘Patriot’:
- Combines Alexei’s biography with his prison diaries, developed despite strict censorship.
- “It's about his legacy...to understand what a person he was speaking about, the details, how it was, was like picked all together and so on. It was very difficult…” (36:45)
- Methods of extracting content from prison are kept confidential for safety.
- Combines Alexei’s biography with his prison diaries, developed despite strict censorship.
Russia, Ukraine, and Global Politics
- On the War with Ukraine:
- Putin’s war is an “awful situation... I think that's about Vladimir Putin's vision of not just Russia, but his country. I think that he's dreaming about back to Soviet Union.” (38:08)
- Yulia expresses dismay at the West’s inertia and insufficient pressure on Putin:
- “I'm really strong, sorry that still the world politicians couldn't do anything to put bigger pressure on Putin to stop this war.” (38:08)
- Sanctions & Western Policy:
- Expresses frustration at ineffective sanctions and lack of a coherent Western strategy to pressure the regime.
- “If you impose sanctions, you just need to take a look sometimes what's going on...These sanctions, they need to bring to somewhere, but they are just...I don't think I can see any strategy...” (43:07)
- Expresses frustration at ineffective sanctions and lack of a coherent Western strategy to pressure the regime.
- Common Western Misunderstanding:
- “Vladimir Putin is not Russia and Russia is not Vladimir Putin.” She stresses the need to recognize the vast number of Russians who oppose the regime (46:38).
Looking Ahead: The Opposition’s Future
- Not Just a Person, But a Process:
- Yulia pushes for institutional overhaul rather than a new “great man.”
- “It's not about person, it's about procedure...I'm thinking about their elections and procedures to make all these procedures democratic.” (25:40)
- Yulia pushes for institutional overhaul rather than a new “great man.”
- Yulia as a Politician?:
- “I think I'm politician.” (40:40)
- Long-term goal: restore democracy and keep the connection alive with supporters inside Russia.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Putin:
- "He is mafia boss. He is murder. He is a war crime. And it's very important to remember about this." (04:37, Yulia Navalnaya)
- On Opposition:
- "You will be thrown in prison...for likes in social media." (23:13)
- On Grief and Responsibility:
- “Of course it will stay with me or not. I think I'm sure that it will stay with this grief with me all the life. But life is continuing and I need to do everything what is possible, you know, to cope the grief, all this work, all this Alexei's legacy, it helps me a lot, of course.” (32:39, Yulia Navalnaya)
- On Western Views:
- “Vladimir Putin is not Russia and Russia is not Vladimir Putin.” (46:38)
- Meeting Vladimir Putin?
- “I never wanted and I don't want to meet Vladimir Putin… he all the time lies. He all the time [is] between. That's why I don't think that I would love to speak with him…” (47:54)
Key Timestamps
- 04:37 – Yulia’s opening on Alexei’s murder and Putin’s regime
- 07:28 – Life in Soviet/post-Soviet Russia; family background
- 10:02 – Early political discussions and activism
- 12:35 – Putin’s rise and character
- 14:50 – Facing risk as Navalny’s profile grew
- 17:11 – Role of social media in Russian opposition
- 20:37 – Why Alexei returned to Russia after poisoning
- 23:13 – Repression and dangers for the opposition in Russia
- 26:23 – Strategy: the need for international attention
- 28:11 – Yulia on personal risk and increased responsibility
- 29:09 – Children’s reactions to loss and ongoing struggle
- 33:31 – Life in the penal colony, censorship, and isolation
- 36:45 – The creation of “Patriot” and smuggling diaries
- 38:08 – War with Ukraine: Putin’s motives and global failure
- 43:07 – On sanctions and the West’s lack of strategy
- 46:38 – “Putin is not Russia; Russia is not Putin”
- 47:54 – Would she meet Putin? “No wish to meet him…”
Host Reflections & Closing Thoughts
- Campbell’s Impression:
- “It is courage and it is leadership… until Putin dies or disappears or falls, it’s going to be very hard to mount any kind of real opposition inside Russia.” (49:07)
- Stewart’s Closing:
- Compares safety and nature of Western politics to existential risks of opposition politics in authoritarian states.
- “The Gulf is unbelievable... you realize that politics isn’t quite like our politics, that it's demanding something entirely existential.” (50:43)
Summary
This episode offers a courageous and deeply human account of life and resistance under Putin’s Russia. Through the lens of loss and leadership, Yulia Navalnaya presents both a sobering and inspiring vision for democratic revival, underscoring the personal cost and persistent hope embodied by Russia’s dissident movement.