Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Politics: Leading – Episode 175
Ex-Director of GCHQ: China, Russia, and the Threats Facing the UK (Jeremy Fleming)
Release Date: February 9, 2026
Hosts: Alastair Campbell (A), Rory Stewart (B)
Guest: Jeremy Fleming, former Director of GCHQ (C)
Overview
In this episode of "The Rest Is Politics: Leading," Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart delve into the ever-evolving landscape of national security in the UK with Jeremy Fleming, the former Director of GCHQ. Fleming shares frank insights on intelligence work, cyber threats, shifting geopolitical risks from Russia and China, and the unique challenges and opportunities facing Britain in the digital and strategic age. The discussion traverses his accidental path into espionage, the evolution of intelligence services post–Cold War, UK–US dependencies, resilience, and the real-world impact of technology on warfare and society.
Jeremy Fleming’s Path into Intelligence
[02:04 – 04:34]
- Background: Grew up in Hampshire, single mum, comprehensive education. Studied history at university out of a desire for flexibility, then trained as a chartered accountant.
- Serendipity in his career:
"I was an accidental spy...More or less, when I turned up, I found out it was MI5...Careers are about serendipity if you ask me." – C [02:04]
- First exposure to government: Entered via the Ministry of Defence, ending up in MI5 almost by accident.
- Culture shock: Transition from the private sector’s modernity to MI5’s outdated infrastructure.
The Evolution of the UK Intelligence Services
1990s Transitional Period
[05:02 – 06:07]
- The collapse of the Soviet Union left UK intelligence reassessing its focus.
- MI5’s role expanded to include serious crime and a pivotal involvement in Northern Ireland.
- The emergence of Islamist terrorism as a new, significant threat.
9/11 and Aftermath
[06:07 – 07:43]
- 9/11 was "completely seminal" for a generation of intelligence officers.
- Transformation towards a more data- and technology-driven service began post-9/11, but major changes in resourcing and national organization only followed the 7/7 bombings.
-
"The resources and the real difference in organisation nationally didn't really happen until 7/7." – C [07:30]
Collaboration and Transparency in Intelligence
[08:14 – 10:46]
- Culture of collaboration: Despite public perceptions of rivalry, MI5, MI6, and GCHQ work closely with shared systems and approaches.
- Move towards accountability: Increasing statutory transparency after relying on hidden budgets in previous decades.
-
"The agencies have to earn their license to operate...We shouldn't take for granted that the public trusts us…" – C [09:45]
Modern National Security Challenges
Defining the Current Threat Landscape
[14:10 – 16:10]
- Multipolar geopolitics: China has emerged as a peer superpower; Russia remains a proximate threat.
- Threats now span everything from space to cyber fraud.
- Over 80 states possess offensive cyber capabilities.
- Dilemma: How to prioritize between supporting Ukraine and addressing massive ransomware attacks at home.
Decision-Making Structures
[16:10 – 22:07]
- National Security Council (NSC) is an essential convening tool but has fluctuations in effectiveness.
- Ministers often lack deep knowledge or time to fully grasp national security decisions, with real knowledge and continuity in intelligence agencies.
UK–US Intelligence Relations and Dependency
[22:07 – 30:30]
- The UK is a junior but vital partner within the “Five Eyes” alliance.
- Debate over UK’s dependency on US infrastructure, intelligence, and security technology, raising concerns about resilience and leverage.
-
"America's security has been dependent on its UK allies at particular points in the past...To think of it as a partnership, so the UK is a junior partner. No doubt at all, but it is a partner. It's not just a recipient here." – C [24:19]
- Acknowledgement that historic self-interest has led to dependencies now viewed as vulnerabilities.
Russia, Money, Brexit, and Interference
[30:30 – 33:49]
- On Russian money and influence in the UK:
"Clearly it wasn't in our interest to have so little understanding of how the money had arrived here. I think that's probably fair to say." – C [33:03]
- On Russian interference in Brexit:
- Agencies were alert, but not all questions were formally asked or pursued at the time.
- The agencies’ remit is to look for national security threats, including misinformation, regardless of origin.
China: Threats and Realities
[22:46, 34:09, 53:07 – 56:21]
- Business elites increasingly see the US as a bigger "security threat" than China, which Fleming strongly opposes.
- On the Chinese embassy in London:
- Public fears (e.g., site proximity to fiberoptic cables) deemed "a load of nonsense."
- China’s threat profile:
“In the last five years we found them not only amounting a significant number of cyber attacks ... but also attempting to control the diaspora here in the UK, of creating unofficial police stations that are trying to make sure that the Chinese diaspora stay in line.” – C [53:07]
- Strategic goal: Preservation of the Communist Party and state, technological and economic advancement, control of the diaspora, supporting Russia, and suppression of criticism.
Technology and Security: Cyber Threats, AI, and Industrial Policy
Cyber Security and Attacks
[39:31 – 43:24]
- 600,000 UK businesses experienced cyber attacks last year.
- Example: Jaguar Land Rover halted manufacturing due to a ransomware attack, costing nearly £2 billion.
- Many cybercriminals operate from countries outside UK law enforcement's reach, especially Russia, North Korea, and Iran.
Structural Challenges and AI
[45:20 – 50:43]
- The internet was not designed for security and continues to suffer from foundational vulnerabilities.
- AI is accelerating criminal and state actor threats:
“AI is an accelerant for the sorts of threats that we already see... to do it more effectively, more convincingly and in different languages.” – C [48:21]
- Urgent need for global governance and standards for AI and technology.
The War in Ukraine: Technology’s Transformative Role
[50:43 – 52:58]
- Ukraine’s defense transformed by serious investment in cyber and cloud security since Crimea.
- The technological arms race has enabled outnumbered Ukraine to withstand Russia longer than anticipated.
Intelligence Careers and Future Skills
[57:51 – 59:44]
- GCHQ and other agencies now require a broader range of skills—tech, analytics, linguistics, systems thinking—in addition to traditional human intelligence and values like integrity.
“…it will be a more tech heavy role than it was at the time at which I joined. But we're looking for the same things. We're looking for people who deeply care about the mission, who have very strong values...” – C [58:19]
The Urgency of Adaptation and Global Governance
[59:44 – 61:09]
- Two key areas where Fleming urges action:
- Global governance for AI and rapidly evolving tech
- Mass education and preparation of the public for accelerating tech changes
"We have got to get around global governance for AI... at some time we will see something we don't like from this technology and we'll be rushing to catch up." – C [59:44]
"We have to prepare population for the pace at which this is coming, and it is coming in years, not decades." – C [60:39]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On UK–US intelligence partnership:
"America's security has been dependent on its UK allies at particular points in the past... To think of it as a partnership, so the UK is a junior partner. No doubt at all, but it is a partner." – C [24:19] -
On Russian oligarchs:
"Clearly it wasn't in our interest to have so little understanding of how the money had arrived here. I think that's probably fair to say." – C [33:03] -
On the challenge with China:
"I think we have been shy in talking about China as a threat, but we need to talk about China as a threat." – C [14:10] -
On system dysfunction:
"Government has a problem with long range continuity and strategy... when I hear thinking that is constantly blaming the system, I feel that's slightly lazy because it's not all about that." – C [21:06] -
On cyber threats:
"600,000 businesses in the UK had some sort of cyber attack last year." – C [39:31] -
On adapting to tech change:
"We have to evolve really quickly alongside this technology." – C [60:39]
Key Timestamps At-A-Glance
- [02:04] – Jeremy’s accidental entry into intelligence
- [06:07] – Impact of 9/11 and 7/7 on UK intelligence
- [10:46] – Move towards public accountability and transparency
- [14:10] – Biggest threats facing Britain: China, Russia, cyber
- [22:07] – UK–US partnership and debate over dependency
- [31:03] – Russian money, Brexit, and misinformation
- [34:09] – China’s embassy and realistic threat analysis
- [39:31] – Scale and impact of cyber attacks
- [48:21] – AI as an accelerant to existing threats
- [50:43] – How technology changed Ukraine’s defense
- [53:07] – The nature and intent of Chinese espionage
- [58:19] – What makes a good intelligence officer today
- [59:44] – The importance of global tech governance and education
Final Reflections
The podcast closes with Campbell and Stewart reflecting on:
- Fleming’s caution due to his intelligence background, and the delicate balance former security chiefs must strike between candor and duty.
- The gravity of challenges posed by technology, institutional inertia, legislative catch-up, and global strategic change.
- The continued need for reform, vigilance, and a more proactive UK stance on resilience, especially regarding cyber, AI, and dependency on major powers.
- The importance of transparency and public understanding in securing trust for intelligence work.
Recommended for listeners interested in:
Intelligence agency history, national security, UK–US relations, cyber threats, technology policy, Russian and Chinese influence, and the philosophy of leadership in the modern state.