← The Rest Is Politics: Leading
Loading summary
Transcript165 lines
- [00:01]
Rory Stewart
Thanks for listening to the Rest Is Politics. Sign up to the Rest is Politics plus to enjoy ad Free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com those
- [00:14]
Gavin Newsom
that think they know me may be very surprised by the actual story of my childhood and my life. I think our politics is radically changing and reorganizing. Part of that is we need to change and reorganize our thinking, our relationship with the public. Donald Trump. He's the most corrupt president in American history. I don't think people fully have absorbed what we're up against day to day. He's about to get crushed in the midterms.
- [00:37]
Rory Stewart
Absolutely sure of it.
- [00:38]
Gavin Newsom
Absolutely sure of it.
- [00:39]
Rory Stewart
Is that one of the reasons why you've taken this very aggressive social media strategy that has got a lot of attraction around the world?
- [00:48]
Gavin Newsom
It shifted after a phone call that I had with Trump. Trump called me late at night and it begins with the following God is my witness, he says, are you definitely gonna run?
- [01:00]
Alistair Campbell
This episode is brought to you by ig. If you're listening to Leading, the chances are that you're someone who thinks seriously about politics and economics and your own financial future. So here's something genuinely worth IG's flexible stocks and shares ISA lets you withdraw and top up your money within the same tax year without losing your tax free allowance.
- [01:19]
Rory Stewart
And that's on top of charging 0 commission and 0 account fees. So it's no wonder IG was also voted best low cost ISA at the 2026 boring money awards.
- [01:30]
Alistair Campbell
Combination of VALU Control is why IG has been trusted by British investors for over 50 years.
- [01:35]
Rory Stewart
This ISA season, they're giving away up to £3,000 cash back when you transfer your existing isa over to IG and use the code ISA LEADING. That's is a L E a D I n G ISA LEADING. Search IG.com to find out more.
- [01:54]
Alistair Campbell
Trade Invest Progress. Your capital is at risk. ISA rules, tax rules and TNC Supply Cashback offer is for new customers only and cannot be used in conjunction with other promotions. Offer ends 5th of April 2026. Other fees may apply.
- [02:11]
Gavin Newsom
LifeLock how can I help? The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't One in four taxpaying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud. What do I do? My refund though. I'm freaking out. Don't worry, I can fix this. LifeLock fixes identity theft, guaranteed and gets your Money back with up to $3 million in coverage.
- [02:28]
Alistair Campbell
I'm so relieved.
- [02:29]
Gavin Newsom
No problem. I'll be with you every step of the way. One in four was a fraud. Paying American. Not anymore. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.
- [02:47]
Alistair Campbell
Welcome to the Restless Politics Leading with
- [02:50]
Rory Stewart
me, Rory Stewart, and me, Alistair Campbell. And we're joined today by Governor Gavin Newsom, who will be known to all of our listeners and viewers as guess what?
- [03:01]
Gavin Newsom
Well,
- [03:03]
Rory Stewart
as somebody who might one day be the President of the United States because that's part of the talk around him. But he's somebody who's got a fascinating childhood also then made it pretty big in business. So substantial kind of independent wealth which allows him just to go and be a politician and is now really is kind of making a difference in the, in the argument about what the Democrats should do to take on Donald Trump. So it's a real pleasure to have you.
- [03:34]
Gavin Newsom
Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for the introduction.
- [03:36]
Alistair Campbell
Thank you. Governor, can we begin with a question of who were you as an 11 year old? If I'd encountered the 11 year old Gavin Newsom, what would I have thought?
- [03:45]
Gavin Newsom
Well, you know, it's interesting. I went through this process of discovery, a memoir that I call Discovery and Young man in a Hurry. It's coming out in a few weeks and, and in that process, I learned a lot about myself, a lot about my family that I didn't know about. My mom and dad were not very forthcoming. Both had passed away, didn't have a chance to really reflect on their lives and their values. But at 11 years old, I was in the back of the classroom. 11 years old, I had a bowl cut, my hands were sweaty. I was scared to death of walking into the classroom, faked being sick, consistently, couldn't read, couldn't write. And nothing terrified me more than being asked to read out loud in a classroom.
- [04:26]
Rory Stewart
That's really bad. Dyslexia.
- [04:28]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, pretty severe dyslexia. And it's really marked every aspect of my life. It's the reason I'm here. Turned out to be an unbelievable gift, but it's also a great burden as a consequence. You'll never see me reading a speech. I'm an American politician when someone can't hand me a speech. So I'm not gifted in that respect, but it provides you the opportunity to overcompensate in other ways and allowed me a creativity that allowed me to get into business, to see things a little differently, to problem solve, to be able to make mistakes. And learn from that. Them to be resilient, all those things that turned out to be attributes.
- [05:00]
Rory Stewart
And you had this kind of fairly troubled child. And not just your dyslexia, but your parents divorced.
- [05:05]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah.
- [05:06]
Rory Stewart
Your mum was kind of bringing you up with your sister on her own, not much money going around. And yet. I read the book last night. You had this extraordinary entry into the world of the Getty family, one of the richest families in the world. How did that come about?
- [05:21]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, both. And I mean, so my dad left for reasons I didn't know until I wrote the book, he left my mom. She was 19, 2 kids, 20, 21 on her own. My father had a breakdown, tried to get into politics, ran for County Board of Supervisors, ran for state Senate, had debt and had a mental breakdown, as he described it in an oral history that we discovered in the process of writing this book, and just took off and left. My mother came from nothing, just hard work and grit and raised us on our own. Meanwhile, my father's relationship with the Getty families go back to his time in school and Paul Getty from the UK and brother Gordon becoming his closest friends. And consequence of that, all these doors opened and the relationship to that world and then coming back home to that reality. And that really is to sort of define my past. Feeling like I belonged in both and didn't belong in either. So it's again, memoir of discovery. And I think what was wonderful not only discovered a lot about myself, but those that think they know me defined probably, perhaps disproportionately on the basis of the relationship of the Getty family may be very surprised by the actual story in my childhood and my life.
- [06:34]
Alistair Campbell
Without being too pretentious, masculinity, you're a very interesting example and I love you to talk about this a little bit. I mean, you're somebody who comes across as a sort of central casting kind of Hollywood politician. You're kind of tall, you're good looking and you know, if you're not lucky, people could think that you too good looking for your own good. You're like a sports star, et cetera. Okay. On the other hand, you've just described this 11 year old who was, who was, as you've described it, with sweaty hands, terrified about coming to class. What does that tell you about growing up, becoming a man and. Yeah, go on.
- [07:09]
Gavin Newsom
No, I mean, I still think I'm that person. And look, in this memoir, and I hope it reads very differently than most political memoirs, I appreciate that. I decided to sort of crack myself open And I made a commitment with a co writer, beautiful writer Mark Erics. And his commitment to me in this process was if we're going to go, we're going to go another level, deeper. But the bottom line for me is I put a mask on, and there were times when my face grew into it. I was becoming someone I was not. And that mask started to fray. I mean, it's that, you know, it started to break down. And that is very well reflected in this book as well. And so it's the remembrance of the
- [07:45]
Alistair Campbell
book remembers when you're drinking too much. This moment when marriages are falling apart.
- [07:49]
Gavin Newsom
Exactly. Yeah. All of the above. And imperfect. It doesn't even describe it. And I think what's wonderful now for me and sort of cathartic, I'm on the other side. I am who I am. I'm not trying to be someone I'm not. And so in the context of a gender frame, as you describe it, I just think more it's just developing confidence and realizing your expression's unique. No one else has it. Learn from, but don't follow others. And so much of my life, I was trying to be like somebody else. And I think a lot of people with learning disabilities, they need to do that. You're performing all the time. You're overcompensating for your own anxieties, insecurities. You know, you're just not as successful at doing certain things the way other people do them and tasks. So you have to come up with more of a creative mindset. And I think that's turned out to be a gift in politics. It provides a different pathway, different perspective, and has allowed my politics to be shaped by risk taking, by iteration, by trial and error in a way that I don't think many or most American politicians. That's not the chosen path.
- [08:51]
Rory Stewart
Were you deliberately within the book, trying to. With a very different story. But is the part of you thinking, well, what helped Barack Obama really kind of reach out to people was the book that he wrote about his life and his. And his dad.
- [09:04]
Gavin Newsom
Dreams of my father.
- [09:05]
Rory Stewart
Yeah.
- [09:05]
Gavin Newsom
Beautiful book.
- [09:06]
Rory Stewart
Fantastic book. And. But I wondered whether. Because it is. It is a very different sort of political memoir, isn't it? In fact, there's not that much about your political life in it.
- [09:13]
Gavin Newsom
No. And just frankly, just the epilogue. I mean, it's obviously goes up to my time getting elected as governor, but it's shaped in the context of my family and the relationship with my mom and dad and their parents, which I discovered this house of horrors. It was Described by my mom, who literally, her father put a gun to her head when she was a young child. Her father, my grandfather took his life, who spent years.
- [09:37]
Rory Stewart
And your mother kind of did.
- [09:39]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, she did. I was there with her and assisted suicide. And I was there with her last breath. And you know, that is really, I mean, not something I recommend for anybody how painful that was, but the pain she was in and how she sought relief at a time when that was illegal. Full disclosure, that's a point of criticism, which is a fair point of criticism. Thank God we had a courageous doctor. And I was there. My sister was there on one side, I was on the other side. She was looking through old photos, struggling with her breath. My sister ran out and I stayed with her for the extra few minutes that she was there and about 20 minutes after. And you know, just those mark sort of deep moments in your life. We all have our own journeys, but try to put that out there and express it in as authentic way I possibly could. In the spirit to your question of what Obama did, which was so different, so distinctive, so unique, so un American in the context of so many political memoirs, which are frankly sanitized, 10 point plans are cautious, they see all sides, they're inclusive. This lets it open, let it rip.
- [10:51]
Alistair Campbell
This is important because we're in a new politics, aren't we? And the sort of politics that I grew up in as a British minister was hypercautious. And maybe the kind of politics that Alistair was associated with, which was message disciplines and grids, a lot of this was about not making mistakes, because any slight misstep, any allegation about something you'd done when you were young, anything blew up all over the newspaper and you resigned and you were gone. But we now seem to have entered a different world, for better or for worse, where Trump does.
- [11:23]
Rory Stewart
Not everybody has.
- [11:24]
Alistair Campbell
Trump certainly has. It's an interesting parallel, but it may be that as we enter the world of Trump, his opponents too need to become more comfortable with failure, mistakes, scandal, and just keep rolling.
- [11:38]
Gavin Newsom
It's the right question, it's the right observation. And I mean, Trump in so many ways is unique. And what works for Trump doesn't necessarily work for everybody else. But you're noticing just more broadly, and I mean, it's the nature of the medium we're on today with podcasts, this notion of extended conversations that was not necessary. I mean, we were talking about risky, right? Five minutes, you know, talking points. We got them right here. You know, just stay on message and, you know, editing away. But Now, I mean, I just, I spent four hours and 20 minutes on a podcast the other day with a conservative in Tennessee who the opening question was, are you willing to take this Glock, this American gun, as a gift? And that was the opening question. That sort of testing the theory of
- [12:17]
Alistair Campbell
where I deal with that.
- [12:18]
Gavin Newsom
I said, thank you, and I've embraced it. And now I'm getting training on Jesus holy in America. But the point being, I think, no, I think that's what people are looking for. They're looking for authenticity. We're exhausted by the status quo. I mean, there's an anti establishment feelings across the globe. I mean, so I think it's very much part of our politics in the United States. Trump expresses that, obviously has succeeded in that respect. So does Bernie Sanders on the other side of the political coin. And so I think our politics is radically changing and reorganizing. Part of that is we need to change and reorganize our thinking, our relationship with the public, and just be more transparent and open.
- [12:57]
Rory Stewart
Now, Gavin, politics, as you know, is full of conventional wisdoms that often turn out to be completely wrong. There is a conventional wisdom that if you're from California.
- [13:06]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah.
- [13:07]
Rory Stewart
The, the rest of the country is not going to take you.
- [13:09]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:10]
Rory Stewart
And of course, Reagan did it, but he was going to Nixon Goes to China kind of thing.
- [13:13]
Gavin Newsom
Nixon tried.
- [13:15]
Rory Stewart
Yeah, exactly. So just tell me, is California a thing? Is it a problem?
- [13:22]
Gavin Newsom
I think it's both. And I mean, I say in the book, it's the most blessed and cursed state in America. And then I would argue politically, too. I mean, I said that in the context of fires, droughts and floods and being the center of the universe as it relates to AI and quantum and robotics and advanced manufacturing. But no, I think it comes with attributes, particularly in a primary. You know, the future happens in California first, where America's coming to traction. So many of the policies, progressive policies, pragmatic progressive policies that the Democratic Party is arguing for, we did years and years ago. Give me a subject matter and I'll give you a policy prescription that we've advanced. Some have been more successful than others. And so there's grace and humility in that respect, trial and error. But, you know, look, we're the center of energy and daring innovation, entrepreneurialism. We're dreamers and doers, entrepreneurs and innovators. And I think think that is compelling to a lot of folks in a general election. There's no question on the right, they painted California in the same derangement terms as Trump. Has been described. There is Trump derangement syndrome. I believe that in many respects, and I think it's valid. And we'll get to that. Well, I didn't say a word. You seem very, very defensive right now. But there's certainly California derangement syndrome. That's 24 7. And it makes sense because careers industries, Fox News, Murdoch, I mean, they're defined by what we're against. Our success runs counter to their entire argument of the case.
- [14:52]
Rory Stewart
You say in the book, there is no Trump without Murdoch. Do you really believe that?
- [14:55]
Gavin Newsom
I absolutely believe that. I just think his weaponization, his ability to shapeshift what Murdochs have done for him. It's Pravda, Fox News primetime lineup. And I mean, the Rubio speech today was interesting. I mean, the shape shift. Compare that to Vance's ship. I mean, they celebrated Vance a year ago. Going to celebrate Rubio tonight. Whatever the Dear Leader, whatever position and repositioning they advance. I've never seen a network like this. You have more experience in this space. Murdoch, of course, is bringing a little bit of his east coast bias to the West Coast. Just created the California Post, whose purpose is to take down folks like myself. That's who these guys are.
- [15:37]
Alistair Campbell
The section of state speech this morning began with a statement that he wanted America's allies in Europe to be strong, and he wanted them to stop being guilty and stop being apologetic and instead to be proud of their heritage, proud of their civilization, proud of being part of the greatest civilization on Earth. I don't really understand that. What's he trying to say?
- [15:59]
Gavin Newsom
I guess the suggestion is you are not. Which is a hell of a statement. And I mean, that's a perhaps a consistent thread of what Vance was saying.
- [16:09]
Alistair Campbell
What does he and Stephen Miller think civilization is when. When Steve Miller's standing up saying, you know exactly where the heirs to a great European civilization or the National Security Council says, you know, I like the
- [16:19]
Gavin Newsom
way he said it. Color of your shirt.
- [16:21]
Alistair Campbell
Right, right, right.
- [16:22]
Gavin Newsom
That's exactly what they mean. I mean, that's what the migration. That's. I mean, these are all the code words so that we know them well. These are the dog whistles in the vernacular of the 80s with Reagan, Nixon and others.
- [16:32]
Alistair Campbell
It's a weird thing, isn't it, given that America has a history of being against Empire, many ways a progressive history, to have the United States trying to say to us that. I mean, the way I heard it, but maybe I'm exaggerating. It is that he's almost saying we should be proud of the French and the British empires that there's this extraordinary kind of Western civilization. It's this sort of.
- [16:53]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I mean, if he's talking about the best of the Roman Republic, the best of Greek democracy, and, you know, this notion of popular sovereignty co equal branches of government and the vernacular of democracy or republic, bring it on. Amen. Right. The rule of law, not the rule of Don Donald Trump in this respect. Rules based order versus, you know, law of the jungle. Might makes right. Or perhaps he does mean what you're suggesting. We have, I believe, an imperial presidency that is inspired by might makes right and the law of the jungle. If you have something he wants, you're a target, period, full stop. And that will continue to be the case.
- [17:34]
Alistair Campbell
And Governor, just final thing on this, there's something that's very difficult to understand, which is, on the one hand, the Trump presidency seems to say they want us to be strong. On the other hand, when it suits them, they seem to say they want us to do what Trump says. And these seems to be intention because on the one hand, he wants everybody, for understandable reasons, buying American weapons, accepting the dollar, accepting his trade terms, giving goodies. On the other hand, he's trying to push Europe to be more independent, pushing them away, which will undermine all those things. I'm trying to work out what he thinks.
- [18:10]
Gavin Newsom
I don't think. I think he's working it out in real time. That's to suggest there's a value proposition that's clear and consistent. It's not. It's mercurial. It's whim, it's feeling. It's news cycle, it's 24 7. It's shock and awe. It's iterative in this context. Throw things out, see what works. But right now, the entire theory of his case is in retreat. They're in retreat in terms of their attitudes towards their alliances in the European Union, based on what Rubio said today. In retreat, obviously, in Greenland, and retreat even domestically as it relates to domestic forces. You know, mass men, the secret police that he sent out to cities like Minneapolis and Minnesota, they're pulling back. His own domestic agenda is fraying. He's historically unpopular at the moment, trying to address the issue of affordability. He's out on an affordability tour. He is in a very iterative mindset because he's about to get crushed in the midterms. And so he's weakness masquerading as strength. But he does respect strength in this context. He senses weakness and he exploits it that's his expertise. And so I thought it was important what Carney said in Davos. I thought it was important what continues to be important, what is being said yesterday, last night, today here in Munich. And I think the European Union, I think global leaders are starting to recognize the approach to Trump cannot be of appeasement. It has to be from a position of strength.
- [19:49]
Rory Stewart
Is that one of the reasons why you've taken this very aggressive social media strategy that has got a lot of attraction around the world? Because it's kind of going for him? And likewise, I thought was really interesting. One of the most, I was kind of laugh out loud, Bob, in your book is when Trump comes down, when you've got these terrible fires raging, you paint a picture of a guy who's still utterly self obsessed, completely narcissistic, only thinking about how he's going to look on Fox News. And you tell this incredible story about he's got Jared Kushner sitting alongside you and he's basically saying, I wish that Ivanka was marrying Tom Brady, not him. Yeah. What are we dealing with?
- [20:32]
Gavin Newsom
How do I impact this? How do I unpack it? Well, you're dealing with a malignant narcissist. I mean, for one, someone who's remarkably engaging, one on one, and that's universally understood. Anyone who's had extended interactions with them, I've had perhaps the most interesting, I would argue, relationship with them of any Democrat, because we worked together during COVID and we worked very, very collaboratively during that period of time. I don't think any Democratic governor.
- [21:01]
Rory Stewart
Were you in favor of taking bleach to deal with?
- [21:03]
Gavin Newsom
I was. You know, I remember bleach. We had our differences, but in the context of at least engagement. The biggest surprise to me on the international stage was the Zelensky meeting. It was so unlike Trump. He doesn't like conflict and friction, one on one.
- [21:19]
Rory Stewart
But that was Vance, wasn't it?
- [21:21]
Gavin Newsom
It was Vance, yeah. Exactly. And so to understand Trump is to understand that. And I think, look, part of that is he's easily manipulated. And that's from a foreign policy perspective. I mean, for Xi and Putin and these others, I mean, that's legendary. And that's a point of some deep caution, but he has a deep desire to get along, for you, to appreciate, to engage him, slap you on, you know, the backhand on the. On, on your knee, to engage in the kind of banter, sometimes crude, infamously, sometimes rather insulting and degrading to poor Kushner. In the context of the Brady comments
- [22:01]
Rory Stewart
and at the end of that, you go off. So you see him close up. You're trying to work with him on dealing with these fires. And then not long thereafter on your social media put out, we've got to get an administration that is less corrupt and more competent than this. And he phones you up almost like
- [22:15]
Gavin Newsom
he was hurt by it. Yeah, he was hurt by it. Said, I thought we had something. And I said, and I said, well, that was maybe a little tough. It was pretty mild. And he immediately goes, yeah, it's all good. We're good, we're good. He just wanted to make sure we're good. He called me right before he federalized. You want to talk about the origin story and you didn't ask. But I'm going to take advantage of you bringing up my social media. It radically shifted last June, and it shifted after a phone call that I had with Trump. Trump called me late at night about 1:30, almost 2 in the morning. His time and unknown number, Palm Beach. I didn't even answer it. Then I listened to voicemail and it was the President. I checked back in. I thought it was particularly late. I wasn't even sure. I checked in with his chief of staff first and said, I know it's late. I got the call, call him tomorrow. I said, no, you should call him now. So I called him. It was a 19 minute conversation about, quote, unquote, the riots in Los Angeles. And it begins with the following. God is my witness. He goes, hey, hey, Yeah. I mean, this is 10 o' clock my time, PM. He goes, what do you think of New Scum? You know the nickname New Scum. He calls me New Scum. Worst governor, you know. And I said. He goes, pretty original, right? I said, no, it's not original. I. I said, Mr. President, in eighth grade. It's actually in the book. They were calling me New Scum. He goes, ah, you know. He goes, what about maga? Pretty good. I said, yeah, make America great. But I said, that's not original. I mean, Reagan cuts me off because how many hats you think I sold last month? This is right when we allegedly had riots on the streets of Valley. Had no interest. 17 minute conversation. Did not once bring up Los Angeles. Had no interest in that. Wanted to get back into the debate performance with Kamala. He says it was four against one. I said there was only two people that were across exam. He says, the cameraman. The cameraman. I'm like, Jesus. And this is literally 15 hours later. He tweets out, said, I read news in the riot act. And we're federalizing the National Guard. 4,000 National Guard are federalized, 700 active duty Marines. Didn't even talk about it. Completely made up and but it was at that moment that my mind radically shifted, that this is, I mean, for all the banter aside, the fact that he's sending thousands of troops, the second largest city in the United States, not overseas. Remember, this was the first city that he did. It just shifted in my mindset that we've crossed that red line. And what I started to do is put a mirror up to that. And I did it in very crude ways, in ways that were profoundly controversial because I started to mimic him for a reason. I mean, dressing up as the Pope, the President, United States, I mean, this is not normal. And the best part about it, we, we had some fun with it is Fox News again. Back to Pravda and his enablers. They were so offended, one of their well known hosts on one of their biggest programs said this new Somi, where is his wife? He should be washing his mouth out with soap. This is not once recognizing their lack of situational awareness. They've not said a thing about Trump's tweets this entire time. So we haven't doubled down on it. We have made it kind of an art. And if you haven't checked my social media out, I encourage you to check it out.
- [25:21]
Rory Stewart
Okay, Gavin, Rory, quick break and then back to the wall.
- [25:32]
Alistair Campbell
This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. Now, it's Mother's Day coming up and Aura Frames is what I'd call a thoughtful, lasting gift, especially if it's for
- [25:41]
Rory Stewart
somebody who can be tricky to shop for.
- [25:43]
Alistair Campbell
Every year you have the same fallback gifts of flowers or books. But Aura Frames are rather lovely. They're a photo frame with high definition im, but the images change during the day. So you can have a wonderful variety of family photographs coming up. It's something in fact, that I've just
- [25:59]
Rory Stewart
given my little sister and easy to set up.
- [26:01]
Alistair Campbell
Absolutely. Takes you two minutes. Free, unlimited storage, all in a premium gift box.
- [26:07]
Rory Stewart
So for a limited time, save on that perfect gift by visiting auraframes.co.uk and get 35 pound off. Or as best selling carver map frames named the top frame by the independent, no less by using promo code Politics at checkout.
- [26:21]
Alistair Campbell
That's auraframes.co.uk, promo code politics. The deal is exclusive to listeners, so order yours now to get it in time for Mother's Day. And don't forget to add Politics at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. So how did your own experience growing up and this sort of development from quite a shy, insecure boy into becoming who you are today? How does that help you understand bits about the president? I mean, when you look at him, can you recognize people in your life who he's a bit like? I mean, other hints of his personality you're picking up?
- [27:02]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I mean, we all want to be loved. We all need to be loved. Even the President of the United States. Look, he's a broken man in so many respects. Let's not forget he's the guy who tried to light democracy on fire and wreck our democracy after January 6th. He's a very dangerous person. One should not underestimate what he's capable of doing on a daily and hourly basis. I don't think people fully have absorbed what we're up against day to day. He is trying to wreck this country. It's 250th anniversary of this historic project of our founding fathers. And he is doing everything in his power to break the core tenets, the spirit of those values. That said, he's not complicated. He just simply wants you to understand how wonderful he is, how you know, what a good chap he is, what a good bloke he is. He wants to do the right thing. Just give him a hug. He didn't get many clearly from his parents. I don't know that it's more complicated than that. However, he's also a guy. I've described him as a T. Rex. He will either devour you or you have to mate with him. It's almost impossible to work with him. You only work for him. And so I have iterated in that respect as governor. We have tried the path of least resistance. Doesn't necessarily go so well. And now we're taking an approach that's a little bit more aggressive, a little more assertive. And interestingly, I think he responds to that with a little more respect than most people would otherwise appreciate.
- [28:40]
Rory Stewart
Who do you despise? Might be too strong a word, but who do you despise more? Him or the people who enable it?
- [28:50]
Gavin Newsom
Oh, the enablers. I do. They know better. They should know better.
- [28:55]
Alistair Campbell
Rubio, Vance, Millen.
- [28:58]
Gavin Newsom
Where are we? Well, don't get me started. I mean, you talk about the dark heart of this administration, you're talking about Miller. The dark heart of the administration.
- [29:08]
Rory Stewart
Here we are in, in Germany. Is he, Is he Goebbels?
- [29:13]
Gavin Newsom
I don't want to. You can get me in trouble in that respect. I don't know I mean, I think maybe other members of the administration may fill that slot.
- [29:22]
Rory Stewart
He's a hard right.
- [29:24]
Gavin Newsom
And Trump, I've had conversations with, with Trump where he's implied that he goes, he's a tough guy, tough guy, which is Trump's way of saying, you know, he's not a useful idiot, but he's very intentional sent out there. And look, the entire mass deportation strategy is a Stephen Miller strategy. And his, you know, I mean, you saw Miller defend the Venezuelan action in a way that was a little understated, alarming even by Trump standards. It started to pull him back a little bit. But look, I think Rubio talk about putting a mask on. He's put a mask on and his face is growing into it. I don't recognize Marco Rubio, nor do the Democrats in the Senate that worked with him as a colleague.
- [30:05]
Rory Stewart
He saw that today. He was, he was doing Trump's bidding, but doing it in a way that was not as upsetting as Vance was last week. Last year.
- [30:14]
Gavin Newsom
Last year.
- [30:15]
Rory Stewart
Who sitting here now, you're bound to think, let's say that you do win the nomination. Who do you think is going to fight for the Republicans next time around?
- [30:26]
Gavin Newsom
Look, Donald Trump's a lame duck president. He hates those words. Donald Trump is a lame duck president.
- [30:33]
Rory Stewart
What do you say?
- [30:34]
Gavin Newsom
Three times he, as a lame duck president, he will be remembered in years, not decades, time of life, not state of mind. He would run for a third term in a nanosecond if he was a younger man. I believe that he's the most corrupt president in American history. The self dealing, the graft is next level. It's not about policymaking. It's about profit making for the entire family. I mean, it's extraordinary what he's been able to achieve in a very short period of time and his enablers allowing that every second of the day. But in terms of Trump's tenure, it's about to come to an end as we know it today in November. He's going to, as I said earlier, get shellacked in the midterms.
- [31:15]
Rory Stewart
Absolutely sure about it.
- [31:16]
Gavin Newsom
Absolutely sure of it. I've said this before, and it's absolutely important to underscore. He's an historic president, historically unpopular. That's the pivot with Rubio today. That's the pivot with Greenland. That's the pivot in Minnesota. I mean, Susie Wiles is no idiot. His chief of staff, I mean, they recognize how existential this all of a sudden, the US Senate's now in play. That wasn't even on the table. That was never. I mean, we could have theorized it, we could have promoted it as good partisans, but to believe it now, it's a chance. And so this ends lame duck with Congress now with subpoena power, real authority and oversight, but the ability now also to generate some attention. And that's what he hates most. And I want to go to the Vance question. It's all about attention. He doesn't care if he's the heel or the hero, as long as he's the star. That's Donald Trump. The idea that he's going to sit back and watch a primary unfold in organic ways and look around and wonder where CNN is in the Oval Office and like, well, sir, CNN is with JD Vance in Iowa at the primary. He won't put up with that for a second. So he has to be. I mean, this is the Apprentice 2.0. He'll make that determination is the answer to your question. He'll have some fun. He'll throw it out as he does with everything. His focus group are his rallies. He'll go his advance, you know, it's, you know, it's like the gladiator, you know, thumb up, thumb down. It's not complicated in help this always. No, it's Rubio Vance, you know, and he'll throw out some other names and he'll do this until the last breath. And so it's interesting, I think, about the nomination for whoever the Democratic president is. I know all of us want to move and we do rightfully, from resistance to renewal. What's the positive alternative message? What's the journey we can all go on in all of us, I mean, Democratic Party, what do we stand for? For as opposed to who we stand against? I get all that. We all recognize that it's going to be an interesting and challenging environment because Trump will continue, despite his weakened stance as it relates to now no longer having the House of Representatives and being a lame duck. It's still going to be defined in so many ways by Donald Trump.
- [33:28]
Alistair Campbell
How did Kamala Harris lose the last election? And how is the next Democratic candidate going to win the next one?
- [33:34]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I mean. Well, we can go on a journey together on punditry on this. Yeah, we can start with many theories. Incumbency. All right, there's one theory, interest rates. There's another theory. Inflation scars. There's the third theory, Israel. There's the fourth theory, combination of all the above. The fifth, Wokeism. The sixth. Let's talk about transport. I mean, we can Go down that list. Not sufficiently independent. Wrong answer on the View. Didn't go on Joe Rogan. Which article, which pundit do we want to highlight and recognize a combination of all of the above, perhaps 107 days was 108. It would have been different. Open primary. I can continue. I don't know. But I'm in the process of trying to understand. It's why I created a podcast. Offended a lot of folks. My first guest was Charlie Kirk. My second was Steve Bannon. I almost didn't get a third guest because there was a. What the hell is going on over there? Who's this guy? Just had, you know, Ben Shapiro on talking about the mega movement and the split now within the mega movement. I mean, again, back to weakness masquerading as strength. There's something happening there. You saw it on the tariff vote, too. Losing six congressional representatives on the Canadian tariffs. But that said, Trump cleaned our clock just objectively did I know it was 170,000 votes, perhaps in the aggregate. Okay. But still seven swing states, popular vote, historically unpopular person, yet still was successful. So look, we have to learn from that. And I don't think we've done the forensics. And our party, interestingly did, but is unwilling the Democratic Party to actually make public their analysis.
- [35:19]
Alistair Campbell
So it's the whole process that the party's done, which we don't really know what that is.
- [35:22]
Gavin Newsom
Well, we don't know what it is. I don't know that that's healthy. I imagine it will open up wounds and scars. And I think we're feeling better now because 2025 was a good year from us, not the beginning of 2025. We were weak. I think. Look, what my whole thing. You guys have talked about this before on the podcast and you know, Scaramucci, others are absolutely right. And Clinton said this right years and years ago. Given the choice, the American people will always support strong and wrong versus weak and right. Weakness is another part of this whole story. It's not just policy. It's a sense of how Biden stepped down. This sort of sense of weakness after the loss of the election, the party's weak. Schumer leaders of the party decided not to move. But the government shut down early on. The base of the party, frustrated, outraged. There was no real resistance. And then it started to emerge a little bit from the states, the front lines of these battles, increasingly states. And there was a little bit more muscularity. Then all of a sudden people started showing up on the the streets in a way, these no kings Rallies that actually bucked up our party a little bit. And then at the end of 2025, we've got these government gubernatorial races. We're winning in these state races. We're winning in races, you know, for dog catcher that we had never won across the board and, and then Prop 50 for me and the work we did to push back against election Ricky. So now I think we've found our, our footing a little bit more. And when we take back that gavel, we take back the House of Representatives even more aggressive.
- [36:47]
Rory Stewart
Where would you fit on a kind of UK political spectrum or give me an American? If we put Bernie and AOC over here and the kind of more conservatives over here, where would you be in there?
- [37:00]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I'm a guy doesn't begrudge other people's success. I say that because there's a tendency in my party a little bit of that. I've just never been that guy. Nature, nurture. I grew up in sort of the Clintonian mindset. I'm not talking about triangulation third way here, so I want to be cautious about that. But this notion of the value, the prism to which Clinton made decisions, Community, opportunity, responsibility. And I think on the responsibility question, we've fallen short. We can talk in terms of community and opportunity, but the issue of responsibility and patriotism, service, contribution, the Democratic Party can do more uniting around the things that bind us together. I think my party can do a better job. In the vernacular of Clinton, we celebrate our interesting differences, but we don't do enough to focus on what unites us together.
- [37:48]
Rory Stewart
So, for example, could you see yourself running alongside aoc, I mean, with a kind of a shared agenda that could reach out to the country?
- [37:58]
Gavin Newsom
Well, we. Look, our system is broken. 10% of, you know, people own two thirds of the wealth in the United states. If you're 30 years old, you know, particularly a young man in terms of gender terms. So we have a crisis of masculinity more broadly defined, not just the toxicity of a Donald Trump, but more broadly what's happening to boys and men in the crisis in that space in terms of suicides, dropout rates and the like, educational achievement, et cetera. The broader issue of populism is so dominant now in our party that there's a reason people, you know, the reason AOC is out here, the reason Bernie and AOC still fill out stadiums, it's very resonant. I mean, we're going to have the first trillionaire class. We don't need more trillionaires. Happy to have More millionaires, but we don't need any more trillionaires or any trillionaires, frankly. And so I think these class politics is going to play a big role and that populism is going to be dominant in our politics. So it's what, you know, how do you dial that up or dial that down in a way that doesn't push people away ultimately be that determination. So forget the personalities, I think, and tonally we've got to address these systemic issues. There's a sense you can't play in the margins with the established order of things. And so I think some more radical thinking without being radical or radicalized will be in order.
- [39:13]
Alistair Campbell
Can I pick you up on this challenges of young men and what you think the approach should be?
- [39:18]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I've been working with Richard Reeves, I've been working with Scott Galloway and others. They've been thought leaders in this space. We did a very significant comprehensive executive order in this space. We have dozens of initiatives from some as simple as this. We looked around at how many kindergarten teachers were men, realized very few. And that relationship to a young child to see someone that, you know, represents something. So we're out there recruiting more male teachers. As just one example, we have an initiative to organize 10,000 new mentors and coaches young men. You talk about Boys and Girls Club. A lot of these NGOs that we have, there are not many boys the Boys and Girls Club. And so we're recruiting men as mentors. We have volunteer initiatives, the largest, larger than the Peace Corps in the state of California. Points of pride. I think we should do required public service in the United States of America. I think it should be compulsory. I think that is foundational. We need, need to work together across our differences in the spirit that I think defines the best of us. We have to have shared experiences and so all those are parts of this larger fabric that we're trying to quilt together.
- [40:32]
Rory Stewart
Are you definitely going to run?
- [40:34]
Gavin Newsom
I don't know. To be determined. The four people that will decide, five of my four kids and my wife. And it depends on any given day how they feel about it. My oldest daughter has a calendar that counts down the days that she will be quote, unquote free, where I'm no longer governor. My 9 year old has one interest and that is Air Force One. My 12 year old just wants dad to be home and dad and hates that I'm here, literally. And it breaks my heart. And she's just amazing. And. And I'll tell you, that's what this book was for them, I mean, it's the dedication of the book. I didn't write it for anyone else. The third way I can't control people, how they review the book, whether they buy it. I wrote it for them. And it's a book of second chances. You saw that in there. And I'm not going to screw that up again. And that's the only thing ultimately that's enduring and matters is my family.
- [41:27]
Rory Stewart
Okay, so given the scale of the challenge of winning the nomination, raising the money, touring the country, getting there and then possibly being president, is there not a danger that if you're, if that's the decision making process, that the doubts are going to win?
- [41:44]
Gavin Newsom
I'm pretty honest and transparent about it. You know, I'm not, You know, there's no picture of me with a former president. That's been on my mantle since I was a kid. I didn't know that was my destiny and nor am I prone to that. I think biggest mistake the Democratic Party has made in the past is we fall in love. It's about the guy or gal on the white horse to come save the day. And we're not doing the hard work bottom up. It's always top down. And so we tend to chase that. We're focused on 2028. My entire focus last year was on 2026, and that's why I did this proposition Prop 50. But look, I said to someone when they directly asked me, I'd be lying if I said I haven't thought about it. I think the moment in many ways chooses you as well. Do you meet the moment? I do think the obstacle is the way. In the vernacular of the Stoics, what stands in the way becomes the way. The impediment to action becomes the action. Trump, in many ways is defining. It's defined this last year for me in a bit of a, you know, ascendancy in name recognition and identity. I didn't expect that phone call from Trump. That 17 minutes changed the directory of things. So I think it sparks the consciousness and depends on the flatness of the surrounding terrain as well. As I say he only appears eminent because of the flatness of the surrounding terrain. There's humility in all of this, Grace, and we'll see where the journey takes us.
- [43:05]
Alistair Campbell
Governor. So many directions to go in. But one of the things that I've been thinking about is you in California and tech and you mentioned we're about to have our first trillionaire. So much money now embedded in very, very few individuals, all of whom you've met and know and who are worth tens of billions, hundreds of billions of dollars. And they don't want AI regulated, they don't want tech regulated, they don't want the taxes too high. And yet you're going to have to persuade some of them to give you money. I mean, how on earth do you sort out the kind of systems we need given those kind of pressures?
- [43:44]
Gavin Newsom
Well, we're doing it. I mean, we're doing it and we're doing it better than anyone else. And we have a lot more work to do. We're the only state. Well, New York just modeled our frontier model AI regulations first in the nation. I worked on that for two years.
- [44:00]
Alistair Campbell
Tell us a bit about that.
- [44:01]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I mean, it's about dealing with Truth Trust. It's also dealing about the fear and anxiety around these large language models and making sure that those models are more transparent and that information is shared in an open way. Worked with Fei, Fei Li worked with Stanford University, Berkeley, worked with MIT. I did a white paper, built consensus with anthropic, OpenAI, Gemini, some of the other major frontier players, and we're able to put together and knit together a legislative package. As a first step. We did 18 AI bills on watermarking, on robot calls, you name it. We're out there in child safety. We're litigating constantly with these same folks. We have the most progressive tax policy in the United States of America. Infamously, I did my State of the State, arguing in favor of it, not defensively, but making a case for progressive tax policy. So, you know, we're leaning in at the same time. Look, it's in the book. I think there's a chapter that begins, they were known by their first names back then. There's a wonderful interaction that I had with Larry and Sergey, with Steve Jobs, where Steve literally pulled out of his pocket, said, hey, come over here. To Larry and Sergei, I was the plus one and came over and we started to swipe and it was the iPhone that he was about to release a few days later at the Moscone Center. And so I've had that privilege of seeing this in the front row. I don't begrudge them, but some of them have become vestiges of themselves. I don't know or recognize them. They've completely sold out increasingly to Trump and Trumpism, to darker impulses and instincts. There was a libertarian bent, always with these folks, but now it's increasingly grown darker. And I don't know if it's aided embedded by AI or times I wonder how many are microdosing on an hour to hour basis. And that's. I'm serious about that. And that darkness is reflected in the proximity many have to JD Vance to the Vance question and the concern I have about our country. And so at the same time, there are a lot of enlightened and folks that have shape shifted, that showed up in inaugural, that will shape shift right back when the prevailing winds move in the opposite direction when this pendulum swings back. And so I have a little more confidence.
- [46:23]
Rory Stewart
Well, listen, we're running out of time. You've got to go and do something else. But it's great to talk to you. Hope you do go for it.
- [46:30]
Gavin Newsom
God bless you. I appreciate it.
- [46:32]
Rory Stewart
And, and also, what did Paul McCartney sing to your daughter, Montana?
- [46:36]
Gavin Newsom
Oh, my God. I have a. I have the video and I can't remember this song, but come on. I know, I know. I was in my Baby Bjorn and he just comes up and he doesn't stop. And I went quietly and handed the phone to someone. I said, are you recording this as McCarthy's right here with Montana, my beautiful Montana, who's still going to. Maybe it was Paul that got her into these concerts which are costing her dad a pretty penny. Another reason I may need another job, not just political office. I can't afford this.
- [47:07]
Alistair Campbell
Thank you so much. You're very generous of your time and thank you.
- [47:10]
Gavin Newsom
It's great to be with you guys. Thank you so much.
- [47:11]
Alistair Campbell
Thank you again.
- [47:12]
Gavin Newsom
Thank you. Thank you.
- [47:16]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, I thought really intriguing. I mean, and I really warmed him. My encounters with him in the past, I'm afraid I only saw the surface. And it's actually sort of rather kind of wonderful with somebody who comes across as a kind of high school hero. And he was a kind of high school hero. He was like a sports star and he got an amazing sports scholarship. And this kind of thing reveals the sort of insecurities and the awkwardness of his childhood. And as he says that part of the being the great kind of all American hero was for him for some years a mask, which he's now had to get into and examine.
- [47:52]
Rory Stewart
I think he's really got something. I was rather alarmed at the end when he said that it will be down to the wife and the kids.
- [48:00]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah. Because normally when I try to say that kind of thing, when I was running to be Mary London and Prime Minister, people would like, cut. Stop. People want to know you're 100% committed, that this is the thing you think about all the time. They don't want A leader who's a little ambivalent about the job.
- [48:13]
Rory Stewart
Well, it's the old phrase where there is doubt, there is no doubt. And so are there doubts in there? I mean, look, I think he's very, very clever, very, very charming, very, very smart. His analysis of Trump, I think, is spot on. And he's worked out a way to
- [48:28]
Alistair Campbell
deal with it and very clever, but in non conventional ways. He says he's so dyslexic he could barely read at the age of 11.
- [48:33]
Rory Stewart
Yeah. And I mean, look, we know that famously Trump doesn't sort of read Breeze. I think doing any big executive job where you're really struggling to read and write is really, really difficult. But he's done it as the various political positions he's had. I thought, you know, he. There's a frankness about him. Yeah. California's a bit of a problem. The book is very, very open about some of his issues in the past. To do with alcohol, to do with. He had an affair with the wife of one of his staffers. It's very kind of out there. And I think that's the lesson that he's taking from what you talked about, the asking about this sort of new way of new politics that we're in. It's why he does spend four hours talking to somebody on one.
- [49:11]
Alistair Campbell
It's very much not kiss. I mean, British politics doesn't feel as though it's in that state. British politics still feels as though maybe it's better that the slightest scandal. And if you look at Aunt Rayner's mortgage or whatever, I mean that compared to the kind of stuff that he's going through, that a lot of American politics is not. So British politics is still actually quite cautious. Watching your words, one step out of line, the journalists are after you and you're being pushed to resign. I mean, different.
- [49:41]
Rory Stewart
Other than, you might say, other than Farage.
- [49:44]
Alistair Campbell
Right.
- [49:44]
Rory Stewart
And other than when he was there, Boris Johnson. So I think there are. I think a lot of it will be down to the personality. But so for example, what I saw there was somebody who, whatever is going on around him has got a confidence about what he's. And by the way, the one moving, he moves his hands just like Bill Clinton.
- [50:03]
Alistair Campbell
Right.
- [50:03]
Rory Stewart
The left hand movement is identical and I wouldn't be surprised.
- [50:07]
Alistair Campbell
What does it look like, this left hand move?
- [50:09]
Rory Stewart
He's sort of, it's very relaxed and then occasionally he uses the finger to point, but it's not a kind of aggressive point. It's a, it's a. I'M connecting with you, Point. But I was at a football match, a Burnley game recently, and I was talking to the chairman of the club that we were playing against, who was quite sympathetic to labour. But he said something really interesting. He said, you know, whenever they come on the telly, they remind me of managers are explaining why they just lost. And he has that sense of maybe it is an American thing. They're just much more positive about themselves and what they're trying to do.
- [50:42]
Alistair Campbell
What was extraordinary was the elegant way with which he avoided the question of how Kamala Harris lost.
- [50:47]
Rory Stewart
Because, of course, he said what everybody else said.
- [50:49]
Alistair Campbell
Yeah, yeah. Because answering that question tells you, are you with Seth Moulton? Are you with aoc? And he says, well, let's do the punditry. Could be this, could be that, could be the other. Could be the other. We don't know. It's almost two years since she blew.
- [51:05]
Rory Stewart
Also, I think what I thought he was going on to say, which he kind of did, was in the end, whatever happened then, we now have to shape something and create something much, much better to take us forward.
- [51:15]
Alistair Campbell
He didn't quite complete that pivot, though, did he? He was still giving this very intellectual.
- [51:20]
Rory Stewart
Well, he was making sure that people understood that, listen, we can't just blame Trump. We screwed up ourselves. Else. So he was saying what everybody else was saying. Again, I thought I was quite clever. I did see touches of Bill Clinton in him, not just in the hand movements, but.
- [51:34]
Alistair Campbell
But differences too, right?
- [51:35]
Rory Stewart
Oh, huge differences.
- [51:37]
Alistair Campbell
A much more bookish man. Right. And Bill Clinton sort of consumed books endlessly, went to Yale Law School.
- [51:42]
Rory Stewart
But I think in terms. I thought it was really interesting. I'm not doing it. Yeah, I thought it was really interesting when he went, I think about community, opportunity and responsibility. That was a big thing. That was a big thing for new labor as well. It was basically saying we can't just become the kind of, you know, that we're providing people with better health service, better education, better this, better that. There's got to be a sense of shared ownership of the responsibility. And I think that would be a very powerful message if you could land it. And the other thing I think he showed, I think, is one of the reasons why he kind of is emerging the way that he does is this thing of calling out Trump and having Trump, as I said, this comes out in the book when he calls him out, wanting to know why he called him, me out.
- [52:26]
Alistair Campbell
I loved the count of those conversations. I mean, it's interesting. We don't get as much as we should of really getting a sense of how Trump works, because all the people
- [52:35]
Rory Stewart
he normally talks to, other world leaders, other Republican politicians, they're scared to say this is how the guy behaves.
- [52:43]
Alistair Campbell
Right.
- [52:44]
Rory Stewart
You know, and honestly, in the book,
- [52:46]
Alistair Campbell
what do you think about the name Newscombe? Great name, right? Well, no, they said that in eighth grade.
- [52:52]
Rory Stewart
Anyway, I hope he does run for it. I think it'll be. He'd certainly lighten things up.
- [52:56]
Alistair Campbell
I thought he was terrific. Thank you. That was very much something that you brought in. He's an admirer of yours, so thank you for getting him. And I thought that was a great, great podcast.
- [53:05]
Rory Stewart
See you.
- [53:13]
Gavin Newsom
This episode is brought to you by Nespresso Introducing Vertuo up, the latest in a long line of innovation from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch, sense and taste in every single cup. With a three second start easy open lever and dedicated brew over ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way.
- [53:34]
Alistair Campbell
Sip for yourself.
- [53:35]
Gavin Newsom
Shop Virtuo up exclusively@nespresso.com Did Vladimir Putin
- [53:41]
Alistair Campbell
interfere in the US 2016 presidential election? I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist.
- [53:47]
Gavin Newsom
And I'm David McCloskey, author and former CIA analyst. And we are the hosts of the Rest Is Classified. And in our latest series, we're going deep inside the 2016 election to reveal the true story of whether the Russians helped Donald Trump take the White House.
- [54:01]
Alistair Campbell
This is the unbelievable story of how Russian spies first hacked and then leaked emails belonging to Hillary Clinton's campaign, how
- [54:11]
Rory Stewart
Julian Assange got involved with Putin spies,
- [54:15]
Alistair Campbell
and how 2016 marked the point that the world changed forever.
- [54:19]
Gavin Newsom
Get the full insider scoop by listening to the Rest Is Classified. Wherever you get your podcasts.