180. The Only European Leader Defying Trump? (Pedro Sánchez)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Politics: Leading

Episode 180 – The Only European Leader Defying Trump? (Pedro Sánchez)
Date: March 16, 2026
Hosts: Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart
Guest: Pedro Sánchez, Prime Minister of Spain

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Pedro Sánchez, Prime Minister of Spain, exploring his international stance—particularly his defiance of U.S. and Trump-era foreign policy—his handling of coalition politics, Spain’s economic strategies, progressive social policies, and Spain’s leading role on migration and renewables. The conversation also covers the shifting political landscape in Europe, challenges of far-right populism, the future of the EU, and Sánchez’s bold positions on Gaza and global governance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Spain’s Shift in Foreign Policy and Defying the U.S. (03:20–09:59)

• On Refusing U.S. Base Access for Iran Operations
  Sánchez explains his decision to deny the U.S. the use of Spanish military bases for Middle East operations.

  “This has been a very consistent and very coherent position ... fulfilling international legality.” – Pedro Sánchez (06:29)

• He contrasts current Spanish policy with support for the Iraq war two decades ago, emphasizing lessons learned from past “illegal wars.”

• Sánchez describes consequences of a U.S.-initiated “open trade war” with Europe, urging for a Europe that is a united “force of good.”

• On Standing Alone in Europe
  Sánchez highlights the lack of a common European response to the Iran war, criticizing unilateralism and the eroding influence of international law:

  “This is a unilateral war ... without consulting, without coordinating with their allies. And this is, I think, very important to keep in mind.” (09:09)

2. Challenges of International Law & the Far Right (09:59–11:56)

• Sánchez laments the erosion of international order and attributes it strongly to the rise of the far right, both in the U.S. and Europe.
• When asked whether Trump is far right, Sánchez focuses more on the challenge to international order than labels.

3. Europe’s Fragmentation and Need for Deeper Integration (13:47–17:28)

• Sánchez calls for a federalized Europe and more coordinated approaches on energy, capital markets, defense, AI, and responding to global debates:

  “The paradox that Europe faces is ... we need to federalize more ... but we have ... more nationalistic governments that want to keep that policies in their own hands. And that makes Europe weaker.” (16:04)

• Emphasizes moving towards “different speeds” of integration, with countries ready to share sovereignty advancing first.

4. EU Enlargement and the UK Question (17:28–20:22)

• Sánchez supports enlargement to Ukraine, Moldova, and the western Balkans, noting both geopolitical necessity and the need for internal EU reforms.
• Expresses hope the UK will eventually “come back,” calling Brexit a mistake that should be revisited:

  “I think it was a mistake for the UK to leave the European Union and ... there's a lot of data ... that path was not the correct one.” (19:58)

5. Defense Spending & Relations with the U.S. (20:22–22:26)

• On Trump’s pressure for higher defense spending:

  “I think that 5%, it was an arbitrary figure not based on data and facts ... what I'm trying to say is that there's a lot of arbitrariness ... the real debate is capabilities.” (20:50)

• Spain has tripled its defense spending, aligning with agreed NATO metrics rather than U.S. demands.

6. Strategy for European Sovereignty & Global Engagement (22:26–24:55)

• Sánchez identifies the need for more strategic independence from the U.S., advocating for stronger EU relationships with Mercosur, India, and deploying European “soft power” in global debates (migration, climate, AI).
• Insists Europe should not declare international order dead but lead in global governance reforms.

7. Energy Policy and the Benefits of Integration (24:55–26:28)

• Spain’s ambition to become a green energy hub for Europe, hindered only by current lack of interconnections.
• Notes significant reductions in electricity costs compared to France, Germany, Italy—attributed to renewables:

  “Last month ... the electricity prices were three times cheaper than the ones in France, six times cheaper than Germany and seven times cheaper than in Italy.” (25:07)

8. Bold, Positive Migration Policy (26:28–32:50)

• On Immigration and Human Capital
  Sánchez outlines his moral and pragmatic case for immigration:

  “There's a moral dimension of migration, but there's also a pragmatic dimension. We're suffering a winter demography ... we need talent, we need migration.” (28:29)

• Spain has reduced irregular migration by 60% through cooperation; regular migration is framed as an economic asset, not a threat.
• Criticizes the far right’s anti-migrant stance:

  “They are going against the interest of our country.” (29:46)

• Shares data: Migration represents 10% of social security income but only 1% of public spending; focus should be on integration.

9. Domestic Coalition Politics & Catalonia (34:27–38:17)

• Sánchez describes the complexity and strength derived from Spain’s coalition politics:

  “Being a minority coalition government has also made me better as Prime Minister ... you have to deliver.” (35:04)

• On Catalonia: Emphasizes normalization and depolarization, with a socialist now leading the regional government after years of crisis.
• Sees no future independence for Catalonia but values regional diversity as an asset.

10. Lessons for UK Politics (38:17–41:44)

• Analogy between post-2017 Spanish politics and the current UK landscape; Spain’s shift to coalition governance as a sign of “Europeanizing.”
• Sánchez’s advice to UK politicos:

  “The UK needs also to reflect on the decision taken with Brexit.” (39:17)

• Reaffirms that remaining outside the EU reduces real sovereignty and strategic influence.

11. Brexit, UK–EU Relations, and the Future (41:44–45:17)

• Hopes for “more generosity, more imagination” on both sides:

  “The destiny of the UK and European Union is the same one ... it’s in the interest of the UK.” (44:52)

• Anticipates that geopolitical trends will push UK and EU towards deeper cooperation—even potential reintegration.

12. Addressing Corruption Allegations (45:17–48:14)

• On corruption: Spain has reformed and enforced “zero tolerance,” with measures for accountability.
• “Corruption-free politics doesn’t exist ... What makes the difference is how do you respond to those scandals.” (45:33)

13. Gaza, International Law, and Spain’s Unique Stance (48:14–51:42)

• Sánchez stands out for his explicit recognition of events in Gaza as a genocide (the only current EU leader to do so).
• Connects Spain’s empathy for the Palestinians to the Spanish historic experiences with terrorism and the importance of responding adequately without further radicalization.

  “[The Israelis] are not taking the correct response to fight against terrorism ... there’s a lack of political vision.” (49:28)

14. Global Governance and a Reformed International Order (51:42–53:27)

• Sánchez calls for more equitable global governance, proposing Western countries reduce their representation in multilateral bodies to empower the Global South:

  “Western governments ... must reduce our representativeness in some ... institutions.” (51:42)

• Suggests the Security Council’s composition be reconsidered:

  “How Europe is represented at the Security Council, how Asia, Africa, North America, South America is represented ... for the good of the world, we need to face [this].” (52:37)

• Stresses that Europe’s main duty is to be a “force of good ... of cooperation, collaboration.”

15. Closing Reflections: Economic and Political Boldness (53:28–55:05)

• Argues Europe’s economic competitiveness and integration are prerequisites for everything else—including social spending and defense.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Real Allies (06:29 & 07:42):
  “Real allies are like real friends. They tell each other the truth no matter what.”
• On Brexit (19:58 & 41:12):
  “I think it was a mistake for the UK to leave the European Union ... [it] was a terrible loss, not only for British, but also for the European Union.”
• On Immigration (29:46):
  “They are going against the interest of our country.”
• On Gaza (48:32–49:26):
  “There’s a lot of experts ... that already stated as a genocide what is happening in Gaza ... [Israel is] not taking the correct response to fight against terrorism.”
• On European Unity (16:04):
  “Because our enemies, what they want is to have a more fragmented Europe and not a more united Europe.”
• On Political Leadership (35:04):
  “Politics means just do it. You have to deliver on social policies, on economic transformation.”

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Key Timestamps

• 03:20 — Entry into La Moncloa, the “image” of modern Spain
• 06:29 — Sánchez on defying Trump and U.S. military base use
• 09:09 — Why Europe lacks a joint foreign policy stance
• 14:17 — On the left’s declining numbers in EU leadership
• 17:36 — EU enlargement and the technical/geopolitical paths ahead
• 19:58 — Brexit was a mistake, hope for UK's return
• 20:50 — Defense budgets and negotiating NATO contributions
• 25:07–26:28 — Spain’s renewable energy leadership and integration barriers
• 28:29 — Migration, demography, and economic impact
• 34:27 — Coalition politics and Catalonia normalization
• 41:12 — UK needs boldness on Europe
• 45:17 — Corruption scandals and political integrity
• 48:32 — Gaza: genocide and Spain’s pro-Palestinian position
• 51:42 — Renewed global architecture and strengthening the Global South’s voice

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Analysis by the Hosts (After Interview)

• Sánchez’s “Primary Colors” Approach: Clear, unambiguous positions give him credibility—on immigration, Europe, and international law—contrasting with more cautious, poll-driven leaders (58:15).
• Political Maneuvering: Alastair Campbell praises Sánchez’s ability to lead both within his coalition and on the international stage, describing his balancing act: “He’s running a 33-33-33 strategy ... make sure you get the 34th.”
• Advice for Keir Starmer & Labour: Campbell and Stewart suggest adopting Sánchez’s boldness and clarity, warning against “middle-answers” and “timid” strategies, especially regarding Brexit and international engagement.

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Conclusion

Pedro Sánchez presents himself as a rare, unapologetically progressive European leader willing to take bold, principled stances on foreign policy, migration, European integration, and social change. He frames his policies not just as moral imperatives but as drivers of national and European prosperity—countering both American and internal far-right pressures. The episode offers a masterclass in coalition politics, value-driven leadership, and strategic vision for a Europe facing increasing fragmentation and global challenges.

Transcript

[Rory Stewart]

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[Pedro Sánchez]

Iran War we're facing a weaknessing of all this international order based rules. Real allies are like real friends. They tell each other the truth no matter what. When it comes to our relationship with the us, I mean we want to keep that transatlantic bond. But if you go into the details, what you see is that we have an open trade war which was opened unilaterally by the US administration. I do believe that Europe needs to be a force of good because our enemies what they want is to have a more fragmented Europe.

[Rory Stewart]

You're one of a very very small number of leftist centre leaders. I know Britain sadly is not in the European Union, but what would you like to see? The uk.

[Pedro Sánchez]

I would like to definitely to have the UK on board again. I think that the framework has changed because of Brexit, but on the other hand I think societies can make mistakes and I think it was a mistake for the UK to leave the European Union.

[Alistair Campbell]

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[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the Restless Politics Leading with

[Rory Stewart]

me, Rory Stewart and me, Alistair Campbell. And our more obsessive listeners may remember Restis Polity's Question Time a few years ago when I was asked which is my favorite government building around the world and we're in it. It's La Moncloa, which is the home of the Spanish president, the prime minister. We call you prime minister, but the Spanish call you president. But this is a very modern, very bright, very classy building, which is kind of the image that President Sanchez tries to project of himself and of Spain. But what's really interest when we announced that we were going to be interviewing you on the podcast last week, we were inundated with suggestions and comments and questions and I think they showed just how polarizing politics is right now. We had lots of people saying, ask him about his growth, promoting liberal immigration policies, ask him about his amazing record on renewables, ask him about paternity pay, ask him about rising the minimum wage. And above all, ask him about a very, very strong position that he's taken on some of the foreign policy issues, Gaza, more lately, Iran. And then your critics would say that he's got this very rickety coalition and he's only been able to put through three budgets in eight years and he's had to rely on these kind of strange collection of separatist parties. And there's the stuff that's been a lot in the media about corruption and there's lots on the pro side and there's lots on the anti side and we want to cover all of that. But I want to start, if I may, with I don't know whether this will get us off on the wrong foot, but telling you why I was in this building 20 odd years ago, it was with Tony Blair to persuade Jose Maria Athena to get involved in the Iraq war. Oh, okay. So I just wonder whether that's a good place to start because it shows how much Spain has changed between now and then.

[Pedro Sánchez]

It's been a while. Yeah. You know what I mean I do, though. Well, thank you very much for having me and ready to and happy to answer all these questions. And as you said already, I think that Spain has shifted its approach when it comes to these illegal wars, that if you take the experience of the Iraqi war, it didn't bring anything good for the Middle east, for Europe and for the whole world. So we need to have the courage to learn lessons and look for other solutions in order to resolve most of these instability challenges that we are facing around the world.

[Podcast Host]

Talk us through what happened and the decision that you made to come out very clearly to say that you were not supporting the legality of President Trump and Israel's action in Iran, was that a difficult decision? How long did the decision take you? Did you think about it for many hours? Did you debate with your team?

[Pedro Sánchez]

I debated with my team. I debated, of course, with in the coalition government. I also thought about it because this has been a very consistent and very coherent position when it comes to international politics because we are facing a weaknessing of all this international order based on rules. And since the Ukrainian war and afterwards the Gaza Strip war and nowadays the Iran war, I think it's very important to have a consistent approach when it comes to fulfill our obligations in the international realm and of course, fulfilling international legality. This has been our approach when the US Administration asked us to use our military bases in the south of Spain and we of course reject the use of these military bases to, let's say, deploy their military capabilities in the Middle East.

[Alistair Campbell]

What was going on in your mind

[Rory Stewart]

in terms of thinking what price might I have to pay for this? What might Donald Trump do to punish me for this?

[Pedro Sánchez]

Well, of course there's always a trade off. There's always this kind of debate within our government. But at the end of the day, it's also true that real allies are like real friends. They tell each other the truth no matter what. And when it comes to our relationship with the U.S. i mean the whole European Union, it is true that we want to keep that transatlantic bond. But if you go into the details, what you see is that we have an open trade war which was opened unilaterally by the US Administration. There is also a question mark when it comes to the respect of our territorial integrity. That means Greenland and of course, Europe is not in the negotiations process when it comes to the security European architecture and the end of the Ukrainian war. So at the end of the day, I think that it's important to strengthen the European pillar that will bring us to have a stronger I believe transatlantic relationship in the coming years.

[Podcast Host]

What didn't happen is a common European position. I mean, what happened was a sense of splintering. And I'm just wondering what lessons we can learn from this.

[Alistair Campbell]

Is there more that Europe, uk, Canada,

[Podcast Host]

could have done in advance to have a joint position on this rather than end up with everybody going in different directions?

[Pedro Sánchez]

Well, there's actually no common position even in the US Politics within the US Society. So this is a unilateral war that has been started by two nations, by two governments, without consulting, without coordinating with their allies. And this is, I think, very important to keep in mind and afterwards, the consequences of all this war. Not only casualties, instability and security, as the Iraqi war brought us in Europe and also across the world, also for the global south and for our citizens, will meet an erosion of our welfare state and of course, the middle class and working class incomes, let's say welfare.

[Podcast Host]

But Prime Minister, your position on international law was the normal position for everybody five years ago, 10 years ago. And normally we would say a US president needs to go to Congress, he should try to make some kind of argument to the United nations, he should speak to his allies. So five years ago, you would expect Ursula van der Leyen, the German Chancellor Macron, the Canadians, the Brits, all to come out on your position. But some things change. Now. They all come out in 15 different positions. So what's happened to the world in the last five years? Why are they not all saying, this is clear, this is international law?

[Pedro Sánchez]

In my view, there's a wave of far right that is undermining also international order and the international order based on rules.

[Rory Stewart]

Do you see Trump as being far right?

[Pedro Sánchez]

I see that there's a clear challenge coming from the US Administration when it comes to weakening and undermining international order. This is point number one. Point number two, I think that they are also profiting from the lack of political willingness from nations before the current US Administration to reform and upgrade the international order to the 21st century. But that doesn't mean that we have to go back to 19th century. What we want and we need to do is to fix what is not working in the international order, but also to keep the things that are working and that, for example, brought us this period of peace, that we have profit over the last decades. So the dilemma is not to have an old and new international order. The dilemma is to have upgrading international order to the 21st century or to go back to 19th century, and of course, to have the law of the force.

[Rory Stewart]

Do you feel Quite lonely politically. I was thinking back.

[Pedro Sánchez]

No, I don't think so. I think that at the end of the day, if you see there's also a shift when it comes to the position of the different governments vis a vis the Iran war. There's a shift in the political positions of these governments and administrations because the societies, their societies are not following that political position. Also, I think it's very important to have in mind that nowadays international politics is not only states, there are many, many societies that are engaged and they are against these kind of illegalities.

[Rory Stewart]

But when, for example, Chancellor Mertz was sitting alongside President Trump in the White House and Trump went off on one of his rants about Spain and you're a terrible person and Spain's terrible and we're going to punish them and not do any trade with them, did you not feel that Chancellor Merz should have spoken up for you? As a fellow European, I can imagine

[Pedro Sánchez]

that is a very uncomfortable situation. And what I heard and understand from Chancellor Merz is that of course, in his private meeting, of course, he explains that trade policy is in the hands of the European Commission. And it's not a question of bilateral. And by the way, Spain suffers trade deficit when it comes to our bilateral relations with the US So it's not the case of the Spanish economy towards the US where they have and suffered this trade deficit. But anyhow, I think that is a very uncomfortable situation. And of course, for me, what is important is that Chancellor Mertz of course supported Spain and supported the unity of the European Union when it comes to this kind of coercion words that of course, President Trump likes to use.

[Rory Stewart]

If I go back to the time when Tony Blair was prime minister, so there was a period when Gonzalez was here, Schroeder in Germany, Jospan in France, Brody in Italy, there were a lot of left of center leaders in Europe. You're one of a very, very small number of left of center leaders. And I just wonder whether you think that your relationship, I know Britain sadly is not in the European Union, but whether the relationship with Britain. As a fellow center left, you're probably to the left of the Labour government, but you're both center left.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Yeah, no, we have a great relationship. I think that the framework has changed, obviously because of Brexit, but on the other hand, the relationship is very good between governments and also within our societies. No, let me just say about Europe that I do believe that Europe needs to be nowadays, especially nowadays, a force of good. And that means that we need to build up alliance not only with the US of course, but also with, with the rest of the world. We need to have a more engagement approach when it comes to all these global debates that the U.S. unfortunately, they just rejected. Global warming, inequality, social justice, migration, of course, what shall we do with AI and regulation? Or at least creating this alliance across countries and across societies in order to have a more human approach to this new kind of technology. So there are plenty of global debates that we need to focus ourselves more than creating these kind of new problems that, well, it won't create any good for the region and for the world.

[Podcast Host]

How do you create the structures to do this? Because if we take the examples that you've used, as soon as we start talking about defence cooperation, suddenly France wants to help French defense companies. As soon as we're talking about AI tech cooperation, Britain is cutting side deals with Google, somebody else is doing this. We talk about international law. You take one position. Mark Carney takes one position, then changes his position three days. How are you going to coordinate? How are you going to get a joint voice with your allies?

[Pedro Sánchez]

We need to be more coordinated. That is, I think that of course there are historical roots that explains foreign policy nowadays. For instance, what is happening with Germany when it comes to its relationship with Prime Minister Netanyahu or Spain when it comes to the us so there's of course historical roots that explain different nuances when it comes to foreign policy. But in my view, there's a lack of a European vision when it comes to these global debates. And the paradox that Europe face is also that we need to federalize more. Our policies on capital and saving, union market, the energy union market, the digital union market, defense, European industry. We need to scale up, definitely. But at the same time we have, because of this far right wave within Europe, we have more nationalistic governments that want to keep that policies in their own hands. And that makes Europe weaker because our enemies, what they want is to have a more fragmented Europe and not a more united Europe. That is why I think that within the European Union there are governments that are ready to share that sovereignty. And that is why I think that we need to move forward in different speeds, different countries, that we are already ready.

[Rory Stewart]

Where do you stand on the debate about enlargement and looking at bringing in other countries at different pace, at different times?

[Pedro Sánchez]

Well, I think that we actually, because of our historical roots, because we are commemorating this year the 40th anniversary of the enlargement of the European Union to the Iberian Peninsula. We're happy to have more countries, but

[Rory Stewart]

there's been none for 13 years now.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But there's of course technical criteria, but there's also geopolitical decisions that we need to take. And I think that Ukraine, Moldova and of course western Balkans are the, let's say, the duties that European Union needs to fulfill. The enlargement, I mean, in order to complete the European Union political project. And that also means that we need to do our own reforms, internal reforms, mainly in the decision making process, which is difficult sometimes.

[Rory Stewart]

You think there should be less decided by unanimity.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

For instance, there are two models for Ukraine, Moldova, western Balkans. One model, which sometimes Mata Cost seems to talk about, is an idea that you go bold, you say you're going to be a European Union member and then later you will catch up. And the alternative model is that you offer them some kind of for freedom, single market style membership and then a path to a deadline. We are ready for you in 2031, which is the model that you prefer.

[Pedro Sánchez]

We have already experienced that and tested with this partnership that we build up with Ukraine and other countries such as Georgia and Moldova. I think that for our strategic or geo economics and geopolitics from Europe, I mean, I do believe that we need to enlarge towards Ukraine and Moldova. This is my opinion. We believe that in Europe we're ready to do that and we'll make Europe stronger.

[Rory Stewart]

Montenegro, Albania, Serbia, and of course the western Balkans.

[Pedro Sánchez]

That will also mean for southern countries to keep geopolitics not only in the eastern flank of Europe or the Arctic, because there are other countries such as Iceland, that are thinking what to do in the future if they become or not member of the European Union. And the big question mark is what the UK will do in the future.

[Rory Stewart]

What would you like to see?

[Pedro Sánchez]

The uk I would like to definitely to have the UK on board again. I think that societies can make mistakes, but also you can review those mistakes. And I think it was a mistake for the UK to leave the European Union and, and today I think that there's a lot of data and facts that of course shows that that path was not the correct one.

[Rory Stewart]

Just before we leave the international and the foreign policy side of things, are you under no political pressure domestically to spend more on defense? That's something that I think we've been.

[Pedro Sánchez]

But we have already spent 30 billion euros.

[Rory Stewart]

But you're still very low in terms

[Pedro Sánchez]

of the, well, 2.1% of our GDP.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, but you very deliberately basically stood up against Trump when he was basically saying to all the NATO allies, you've got to spend a lot more. That was when the kind of rifts, I think, started.

[Pedro Sánchez]

I think that 5%, it was an arbitrary figure which was not based on data and facts. I mean, just to share with you this information, which is public, but I think that it's important to table this, that we agreed with NATO to spend 2.1% of our GDP on defense, because with that amount of money, we would be able from Spain to have the capabilities needed to face the common challenges that we are facing as NATO. So one thing is, okay, let us speak about the global challenges that we're facing in NATO. What are the capabilities that all allies should table? And afterwards, we will decide how much money you spend on defense. Because if you take my eight years since I'm in office, we have tripled the expenditure on defense, of course, when it's related to our GDP. And of course, we have deployed more than 3,000 soldiers, mainly in the eastern flank in NATO missions. So all in all, what I'm trying to say is that there's a lot of arbitrariness when it comes to these 5% of our GDP. One year could be 5%, the other year could be 2%, and the other year could be 7%. Because at the end of the day, the real debate is capabilities are the capabilities that allies need to share in order to face the challenges that we face as NATO.

[Podcast Host]

How do you rebalance away from the U.S. i mean, let's say you want to stay allies with the US but you also want to rebalance. You want a little bit more sovereignty, a little bit more independence. But of course, Spain and Europe can't do everything on their own. You don't have complete independent capacity with AI, cloud computing, defense security. So what is the strategy? How do you deal with China, with India? How do you balance your reliance on different external powers?

[Pedro Sánchez]

So, first of all, I think it is important to show that we are a reliable partner with all these regions that you mentioned. So I think that the path opened by the current president of the Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, when it comes to Mercosur Trade agreement, India Trade Agreement and so on and so forth, is the correct one. Second, I think that Europe should deploy more its soft power, which means that we need also to be engaged in the global debates, not stringent. The European Union, when it comes to migration, when it comes to global warming, when it comes to financing for development, when it comes to AI regulation or governance, these are the big debates that the global south are waiting to be responded. And I think that it is a mistake from Europe to send the message that we believe that an international order is dead.

[Rory Stewart]

Do you think Europe's lost its confidence?

[Pedro Sánchez]

No, I think that we are suffering a lot of shocks. From Ukraine and Russia, from the US now from the Middle east, of course, China. And within the European Union there's a clear shift towards the far right, which means more pro nationalistic vision of the European Union, which is, I do believe, a weaker approach, because what we need is to unite Europe, not to fragment Europe. And in this regard, I do believe that. Just to respond to your question, there's of course a need to reform our single market, which means not only the enlargement, but also we need to complete the saving and capital union market, the energy union market, the digital union market. And these are the duties that we should deliver before the end of the mandate at the European level.

[Alistair Campbell]

And can you explain to the normal

[Podcast Host]

voter in Britain or in Spain, what does this mean? I mean, this sounds very unifying. Energy markets, capital uniforms. In practical terms, what does this mean for a citizen?

[Pedro Sánchez]

It means, for instance, that since seven years ago, we have decided to become the green energy hub for the European Union. What is the problem? That we are interconnected only by 5% of our total capacity. So we cannot provide competitive energy prices to the European Union because there's a lack of interconnections between the Iberian Peninsula and France. If we complete that interconnections, we will provide cheaper energy prices to European consumers. So these are the small things, but very important things for the welfare of European citizens and of course, for the, let's say, the strength of the European Union project. Since I'm in office, last month, for instance, thanks to this Greens transition, we've been able to reduce dramatically the electricity prices. Last month, for instance, the electricity prices were three times cheaper than the ones in France, six times cheaper than Germany and seven times cheaper than in Italy. What I'm trying to say is that of course from Spain we can provide cheaper electricity prices and cheaper energy for the rest of Europe.

[Podcast Host]

And this is solar. Predominantly solar.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Solar, yes.

[Podcast Host]

And you're benefiting from your weather, your sunshine.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Exactly. But at the end of the day, when you see, let's say, the ideological speeches coming from the far right, going against the green transition, going against migration, I think Spain is a very good example of, with facts, that green transition is for the good of the middle class. And also migration, even though of course there's a lot of challenges behind migration, is also good for the economic growth of the country. Because at the End of the day in the 21st century, the competition around the world is how do we attract talent? And I think that is a big mistake take from Western societies just to say we're going to close our borders because we don't need more migration. Of course we need migration. The dilemma of Western societies is whether we open our economies and growth or whether we close our borders and it's shrinking.

[Rory Stewart]

I want to talk to you about immigration and the way that you've handled the whole issue and also the politics around it. So you've mentioned a couple of times the idea that there's a sort of movement to the far right across Europe. And you know, we've got a similar situation in the UK with a Labour government that's come in with a huge landslide and is now under real pressure. And a lot of the pressure coming from populist right and populist left. What have you learned about how best to handle that? I mean, I know we shouldn't quote taxi drivers, but my taxi driver from the airport last night said he was really impressed politically by the way you had taken an issue which the far right thinks plays massively in their favor, immigration. And you have kind of flipped that so that actually somebody like him in the center is thinking, I'm never going to vote for these people on the far right. I'm going to vote for this guy.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Well, I think there are two dimensions when it comes to migration. There's a moral dimension which I think is very important not to forget. These are people that are looking for new opportunities. And I think that there's moral dimension of migration that we need to keep in mind. But there's also a pragmatic dimension of migration. We're suffering a winter demography within Western societies. And of course that means that we need to fight against irregular migration. We have managed through cooperation and collaboration with countries of origin and transit to reduce dramatically by, by 60% the irregular flows in Spain. But at the same time, it's true that when you speak with business associations, they tell you we need talent, we need migration. And that is why it's so important to have regular path of migrations.

[Rory Stewart]

So what you've done, which a lot of the centrist, left of center and right of center governments across Europe have

[Alistair Campbell]

not done, you don't go around saying,

[Rory Stewart]

yeah, yeah, yeah, we understand all your concerns. You basically say to these people on the far right, you're xenophobic and your attitudes damage the country.

[Pedro Sánchez]

They are going against the interest of our country.

[Alistair Campbell]

But again, you're quite A lonely voice

[Rory Stewart]

on that within the European immigration debate.

[Pedro Sánchez]

But there are nuances even across European governments. You find prime ministers from the central right saying, we're facing a winter demography and we need to open regular paths for migration. And I think that one of the biggest mistakes that Trump and current US Administration is making is to close borders. They are trying to identify migration, all migration with crime and all this violence, and it's the contrary. In the case of Spain, migration represents 10% more or less of the total incomes of Social Security system, but at the same time only represent 1% of the total public spending. The challenge for governments and in the case of Spain, since we have a very decentralized system, is in the hands of the regions and the hands of municipalities. The challenge is how do we integrate this migration? The problem that we face in Spain, and I think that across Europe is that the far right, they're just not sending the message that we are going to close borders, which is is impossible, by the way. But at the same time, they are reducing dramatically budget related to integrating migration.

[Podcast Host]

Interestingly, a lot of the migration coming to Spain is coming from Latin America, and a lot of the migration coming to the United States is also coming from Latin America. But the way Trump is describing Latin American migrants sounds like a completely different group of people from the people you're describing. I mean, it's a similar population, but he says these people are crazy, rapists, violent.

[Pedro Sánchez]

And when you speak with these Latinos in the United States, it's the contrary. They feel proud to be in the United States. They feel proud also about how they contribute to the economic growth and prosperity in the United States, not only from Latin America. We have also a very important diaspora of Morocco in Spain that they are contributing to the welfare of our society. And again, the challenges is, how do we integrate this migration?

[Podcast Host]

How do you do that?

[Pedro Sánchez]

We need to increase our budget when it comes to municipalities and regions. We need to also deploy social policies.

[Rory Stewart]

So you want to spend more on welcoming immigrants?

[Pedro Sánchez]

Indeed. Well, actually, what we are now in the process is to recognize the rights and regulate the more or less 500,000 migrants that are already living in Spain. But for a country of close to 50 million people, we're talking about perhaps 4 points, 5 points of the total migrants that we have in Spain. It's not a big issue. I think that we have, of course, the capacity to absorb and to integrate these migrants.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, President Sanchez, Rory, quick break. And back for more.

[Anita Anand]

To some, he is the revolutionary hero who restored China to its rightful place. On the global stage.

[William Durand]

To others, he's a brutal despot accused of presiding over more civilian deaths than either Stalin or Hitler.

[Anita Anand]

Mao Zedong has one of the most recognizable faces in the world. Yet he started life as a rural boy in a muddy provincial village.

[William Durand]

A rebel son who hated his father survived a 6,000 mile walk across China and rose to become a figure of titanic proportions from Empire.

[Anita Anand]

The Goal Hangar World History Show. I'm Anita Anand.

[William Durand]

And I'm William Durand.

[Anita Anand]

In this six part series, we're joined by world renowned expert Rana Mitter to explore the life of the father of communist China, Mao Zedong.

[William Durand]

We'll track his rise from a a bookstore owner to a guerrilla commander and will witness his ruthless elimination to secure total power.

[Anita Anand]

We'll explore the greatest famine in human history, a catastrophe where Mao himself predicted that half of China may well have to die.

[William Durand]

And we'll descend into the dark experiment of the Cultural Revolution. A time when ancient temples were bud, children denounced their parents. Parents and a nation worshipped a mango as a sacred relic.

[Anita Anand]

And we'll play a clip from the series at the end of this episode for you to listen to.

[Rory Stewart]

Can I ask you about your domestic political situation? Because it's, it is fascinating. You've been Prime Minister for eight years. You've had three budgets.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

You've had to rely quite a lot on the kind of European funds to, to keep some projects going. You've managed to do a lot of that. But looking from the outside, it's a very, very weird kind of coalition situation.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Well, it's the coalition that Spaniards wanted in.

[Rory Stewart]

How do you hold it together?

[Pedro Sánchez]

Well, I think that with a lot of capacity of negotiation and I think that the Spanish way of doing things

[Rory Stewart]

works, define the Spanish way of doing things.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Well, in 2025 we created more jobs than for instance the US economy. The economic growth in Spain represents 40% of the total economic growth of the Eurozone. I do believe that politics means just do it. You know, you have to deliver on social policies, on economic transformation and so on and so forth. And we have done so on the digital side on the green transition.

[Rory Stewart]

But when you're sitting with your coalition colleagues, you've got quite a wide spectrum. You've got a right wing Catalonian over here, you've got a kind of hard left guy over here. You've got somebody very much in your image there.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Well, at the end of the day there's a common understanding and I can tell you that being a minority coalition government has also made me better as Prime Minister. Because that. Not only because of my conviction, but also obligation to talk a lot with the rest of military groups. Well, perhaps for a year. But I can tell you that we've been able to pass very important laws such as labor market reform, pension system reform, with social peace. And by the way, it is true indeed that back in 2017, the year before I took over, Spain suffered the worst territorial and constitutional crisis in Catalonia. And nowadays in Catalonia we have a socialist president. So people in Catalonia recognize the effort that we have done over the last seven years in order to normalize the situation in Catalonia. And this is also a very important goal for this term to 100% normalize the political and social situation in Catalonia.

[Rory Stewart]

What does that mean? 100% normalize.

[Pedro Sánchez]

So to materialize the Amnesty law to overcome all this terrible mess that previous administration left me when I took over back in 2018. And I think that we are in the process, but of course it has obliged me to take very difficult decisions that in the beginning Spaniards were more reluctant, but nowadays they realize it was worth for the coexistence of the Spanish territories and of course to strengthen democracy in Spain.

[Rory Stewart]

Do you think Catalonia will be independent in your lifetime?

[Pedro Sánchez]

No, I think that Catalonia, they just want to be respected, its identity to be recognized as well as the Basque country. And I think that diversity, territorial diversity within Spain is not a problem. It's an asset for the good of Spain and for the good of our prosperity. This is why I think that now if you take the Poles in Catalonia and in the Basque country and other territories, that they have this very strong identity, they recognize how well and how good this government works for their interest. And I think this is very important. Without breaking, of course, equal opportunities within territories and within citizens.

[Podcast Host]

There's a sense in which we all feel like we're becoming Spain in 2017, that you are somehow ahead of us. If you look at Britain, like Spain, we had basically a two party system and then suddenly we end up with our own far left. Our podemos is basically the Green Party, which has now just won a byelect election. Very radical. Then we have Farage on the right, which feels a bit like vox, and we have a center left prime Minister who is stuck in a similar situation to you, but is taking a completely different approach. Right. He had been told by his previous chief of staff he needed to sound very tough on immigration. He needed to get the voters back from the far right. What's the lesson? I mean, if we're all becoming Spain in 2017, what's the lesson for Keir Starmer and the Labour government on how you navigate this new world of five parties and far left and far right and immigration.

[Rory Stewart]

And with the independence debates going on

[Pedro Sánchez]

from Spain, what we think is that we are eubanizing Spanish politics because this is the first time ever since we have democracy 45 years ago that we have a coalition government at central level. Of course, we have at regional level and municipalities, but not at central level. So we are in the process of Europeanize Spanish politics. And when it comes to the UK I think that the framework perhaps is the problem. The framework is how do you navigate in this world without being part of a bigger political project? It doesn't matter if you are center left or center right. Prime Minister, at the end of the day, the framework where you operate and you do politics, it's very tiny, very difficult to operate because there's, of course, a high public deficit, high public debt, low economic growth, of course, more defense obligations and security obligations. The debate of migration. I think that the UK Needs to, with all due respect, the UK needs also to reflect on the decision taken with Brexit.

[Rory Stewart]

We're now in a position, as it happens, I don't think Nigel Farage will become prime minister, but it's not impossible. So there's one of the two big drivers of the campaign to get Britain out of the European Union. And even as though you said earlier, a lot of Brits think it's been a complete catastrophe. How is it that one of the chief architects of it is now being talked of as a future prime minister? So I think what Rory's saying is you seem to be suggesting that Britain needs to be far more confident about embracing its obvious economic and political future.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Indeed.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Pedro Sánchez]

I think that is a big question mark that British should answer. We need to keep that alliance. Brexit was a terrible loss, not only for British, but also for the European Union. We have also lost one of our major, let's say, political actors when it comes to international politics. Politics and welfare of the European Union as a whole. And middle answers are not the correct one.

[Rory Stewart]

You need bold, primary colors.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Exactly. I think it's important to open that debate. But once again, of course, it will polarize the citizens in Britain. And this is a very difficult debate to face. But again, again, it's a question of framework, how Britain could win more sovereignty. And in my opinion, you don't win more sovereignty when you are out of a bigger political project. In our case, of course, the European Union. Imagine Spain out of the European Union. It would be a disaster.

[Rory Stewart]

You're the first Spanish Prime Minister I've met who hasn't raised Gibraltar in the first place. Well, let's not, let's not, let's not.

[Pedro Sánchez]

By the way, I think there were three labor governments in Gibraltar, in Spain and in Britain. Thanks to, I think, generosity, responsibility, and, of course, thinking about people in Gibraltar and in Campo de Gibraltar, we managed to reach a very important agreement. So I think that this was a very important milestone in order to scale up and strengthening our bilateral cooperation with the uk. But going back to, to your question, the problem is not about political orientation. It's about the framework where politics in Britain operates after Brexit.

[Podcast Host]

And then I think it takes two tatango. I mean, the European Union is going to have to be quite generous also in accommodating Britain if we try to get it back. So what we're afraid of is that eventually we win the referendum. Burnham, we want to come back into the European Union. And then France says, no, no, no, no, no. If you come back this time, you must get much worse terms. We have to punish you for your leaving.

[Pedro Sánchez]

I think Europe has changed a lot over the last years. I mean, we suffered a pandemic afterwards, a war in Ukraine, the energy crisis, Gaza war, and nowadays Iran war. And what we see is a clear alignment in global politics from the European Union and the UK government. So I don't see today any other path than more cooperation, and why not in the future? But this is my hope, with all due respect, to have again the UK in the European Union.

[Podcast Host]

The sad thing is when we have an example of trying to make a cooperation, for example, on the defense, defense funds, we didn't even succeed in something small like that. They got into a fight about Britain is not paying enough. Britain's saying we're paying too much. And in the end, the obvious thing, which was to tie Britain into the defence procurement, was not successful.

[Pedro Sánchez]

At the end of the day, I'm sure that we will reach an agreement, but that's democracy. I mean, to have different opinions and then afterwards you negotiate and you reach an agreement. But perhaps we could do it faster

[Podcast Host]

and with more generosity, more imagination from both sides.

[Pedro Sánchez]

But I think that the destiny of the UK and European Union is the same one. And I think that we need to do a political effort to join forces and see in the future how do we frame this relationship again, as a member of the European Union or not. In my view, it's clear that in the interest of the uk, I mentioned

[Rory Stewart]

at the start And I don't want to get into the details because we can just go down rabbit holes, but there's these constant allegations of corruption, corruption against some of your colleagues who are in jail, family members. First of all, does Spain have a corruption problem?

[Pedro Sánchez]

No, no, no, no, no. We had it with the previous administration, unfortunately. But corruption, politics, free, doesn't exist. I mean, it's important to keep in mind what exists is to have zero tolerance against corruption and personally took those decisions in order to. To expel those cases of corruption. When it comes to some of my members of the cabinet, one precisely. And when it comes to my family, of course I will defend the innocence of my brother and my wife. But politics nowadays you have this polarization. They have also the use of, of different associations that demand before courts, your family, because they're just your family. And I hope that justice makes justice and the truth will prevail. But this is also the cost that you have to pay sometimes nowadays doing politics.

[Podcast Host]

So you said in relation to some of your very close allies who helped you to, to take over the party, these guys that were traveling around with you in the car, that you regretted what had happened, that you had moments where you felt maybe that you should resign. I mean, what went wrong? What were the lessons there? What lessons have you learned from that?

[Pedro Sánchez]

Well, there's a side, a dimension of this political relationship. You think that perhaps they are your friends, but at the end of the day, you don't know them. You think that you know them them, but you don't know them. They have a kind of high life. But what is, I think, important is to take decisions, not to just say, well, it's not a case of corruption. Since the first moment, the very first moment that police and of course the judges opened this corruption scandal, I took decisions proportionally to the case, and I think that is my responsibility. And also, on the other hand, to cooperate with international organizations such as the OECD in order to launch a state or a national plan against corruption. All in all, what I'm trying to say is that corruption is part, unfortunately, of politics. What makes the difference is how do you respond to those scandals? In my case, I took that responsibility and I was 100% tough and proportional to those kind of scandals.

[Rory Stewart]

My final question I want to ask you about Gaza. Now, I know historically, Spain and Ireland have always been very, very defined as pro Palestinian. But again, I wonder how you developed the position that you took. I think I'm right in saying you're still the only European leader who's actually called what's happening in Gaza Genocide.

[Pedro Sánchez]

There's a lot of experts on international law, on humanitarian law that already stated as a genocide what is happening in

[Rory Stewart]

Gaza and what is it about the. I know Ireland very, very well and I understand the emotional connection. What is it about Spain that makes it such a pro Palestinian? It's probably the most pro Palestinian European country, I would guess.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Of course we are empathetic with the Palestinian cause. But I would say that there's a broader picture to think about it, which is that Spain has suffered for many years terrorism, first of all in the Basque country in the beginning of our democracy. And afterwards we suffer a very important terrorist attack from the jihadists during the Iraqi war.

[Rory Stewart]

But the Israelis would say that they're victims of terrorism.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Absolutely they are. But they are not taking the correct response to fight against terrorism. And this is I think the real debate because of course there is a security dimension when it comes to fight against terrorism, but there's also an ideological dimension on how to fight against terrorism within society, in this case the Palestinian society. And I think that today, if you ask yourself is Hamas stronger or weaker after four years of war or three years of war, I could tell you perhaps, perhaps Hamas is stronger. Why is that? Because there's a clear lack of political vision on how to fight against terrorism, how to give and provide Palestine a political horizon for their own future. And that means of course responding to the urgencies such as humanitarian aid, stopping the war in in the Gaza Strip, but also to give and provide a political horizon which means a state of Palestine.

[Rory Stewart]

Do you think Netanyahu is a war criminal?

[Pedro Sánchez]

That is not my duty to respond it. But I think that Israel today is more isolated internationally than before the war. And why is that? Because Prime Minister Netanyahu took a very wrong decision when it comes to respond to this Hamas mass terrorist attack, which by the way, we of course condemn it since day one.

[Podcast Host]

My final question, how do we. You've talked a lot about Spain, you've

[Alistair Campbell]

talked a lot about the European Union

[Podcast Host]

and the UK But I'd like you to my final question, to think a little bit about the bigger global architecture and the global south, because there's a risk that Germany, Britain talk about the rules based international order, but the reality is we have all cut our development, spending a lot of time. There's less support going into the global south. There's not much support for the United Nations. Sometimes it feels as though we only care about state sovereignty when it's Europe and we don't really care.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Indeed. I agree. I think the problem or the challenge is how do we upgrade the international order to the 21st century? And that means that Western societies, Western governments, we must reduce our representativeness in some of these multilateral institutions in order to have a more representative international order. Which means we will need more African Union, we will need more asean, more Global south in multilateral institutions. Are we ready to reduce that representativeness? Are we ready to share global governance with other regions, with China, with India, with Brazil, and keeping at the same time what is working at international level? That is the challenge.

[Rory Stewart]

So Britain and France have to give up their permanent membership of the Security Council.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Well, perhaps it's something that we need to think about it. How Europe is represented at the Security Council, how Asia, Africa, North America, South America is represented in the different institutions. And I think that this is a very, very difficult question to be answered. But I think that for the good of the world, we need to face it as Western governments and Western societies. That is why I do believe that it's a big mistake for Europe to state that the international order is over. Because I think that the duty of Europe today more than ever is to be a force of good. And that means to be a force of cooperation, collaboration, to strengthen multilateral system and of course strengthen international order and

[Rory Stewart]

also strengthen the economy.

[Pedro Sánchez]

You were asking me about defense spending, but the first question that Europe should answer is how do we increase our competitiveness? How do we increase our productivity? How do we grow? And afterwards we can talk about if we spend more on defense, Social Security, social services, housing policy and so on and so forth. And there again we have a very different view when it comes to far right governments and I would say centrist government, which means perhaps to enable our country's competitiveness, means to speed the green transition. Renewables are quite competitive when it comes to, let's say, fossil fuels or even nuclear energy. And of course, what do we do within the European Union to scale up, up our digital market? And that means that we need to change and reform and upgrade our competition framework to forget about. This is a Spaniard company. The other one is a German company or a Spanish company, German company or French company. And perhaps we should talk about European companies. So there are many, many, many challenges for Europe and of course for the world, Western governments. But at the same time, the good news is that we know what we should do. The challenges we have that political willness to deliver.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you so much. I mean, it's been a wonderful interview. We're very grateful for your time. Thank you very, very much indeed. Thank you.

[Pedro Sánchez]

It is a pleasure. Thank you.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, Roy. So there's President Sanchez. Quite an impressive guy.

I thought he was really brilliant. I think he's a very, very skillful politician. We didn't maybe talk enough about just some of the amazing maneuvers he's made. But he's also a great communicator of values in such important areas. I mean, just on the maneuvers, he's one of these people who is able to take a position and then reverse the decision position, but somehow still not be overly punished by it. So in his case, he said he was not going to give amnesty to the Catalan leaders, and he did. The implication was he wasn't going to go into business, I think, with the far left. And he did. He also did this very radical thing right at the beginning of his leadership, where he effectively took on the entire party leadership was thrown out of the party, started a grassroots movement, seized back control. So under the surface of this very articulate, calm communicator is somebody who's able to make these amazing kind of political moves.

Yeah, he is definitely a phenomenal politician. I was speaking to quite a few of the kind of diplomatic circle in Madrid ahead of the thing, and they were all saying that he is, by a long stretch, the most important impressive Spanish politician there has been for some time now. The other thing that somebody said to me that was really interesting, we didn't get too much into the domestic Spanish politics, not least because his position on the international stage is so interesting at the moment, because he's absolutely calling out Trump in so many ways. One of them said to me something very interesting. He said, this is not a politician who's running a 51, 49 strategy. He's running a 33. 33, 33 strategy. Make sure you get the 34th, which is really interesting. And of course, the other thing that's happening in Spanish politics is that there's a lot of focus on the far right vox, and he kind of plays into that. I mentioned a lot of the questions that we got. Some of them were in the field of why do you keep sort of, why does he keep labeling the Conservative Party as these kind of, you know, terribly dangerous, etc. It's because he's trying to ally them to the far right. So they get. You get a lot of debate about the far right. But the other fascinating thing going on is there are all these parties to the left of him, including some that sit in his cabinet, plus a now very charismatic leader. This Guy called Ruffian, which I think is a wonderful name for a politician in Catalonia who's trying to put together an alliance to the left of Sanchez. Now, I actually think in the end, 34, 30, 33, 33. Strategy that might help him kind of consolidate a position in the center, push the right off to the extremes, have the left off to him.

Is that the strategy for Starmer? I mean, is that Starmer putting the Greens off to his left, making the conservatives associated with reform and coming through the middle?

I think to some extent it is. And it was very interesting, you know, when we were. And we'll come on to his very clear advice for Keir Star, particularly on. On Brexit. But also this thing he kept saying. I mean, it was. It was my words, but he kind of lent into it this idea about communicating in bold primary colors. I mean, everything. When you said, after the interview finished and you said, you know, he just. He's so clear. It's because he is speaking in bold primary colors all the time, even though, as you say, sometimes the colors change. When we pressed him on how do you deal with this kind of Frankenstein Liechtenstein coalition with all these different places over there, and he had flipped it from I'm a pragmatic politician putting all this together to it makes me a better leader that I can deal with all these different shades of opinion. So his new primary color, having fought so hard to get the coalition, is coalition makes for good politics. And that's why people like me as a leader. I mean, he's very smart.

The best primary color bit I thought was that he was able to take a radical position, very unashamed position on immigration, connect it to growth, which people

really care about, and to values. And to values, exactly.

So that thing that you very, very rarely hear a British politician say when he said, look, when you're talking about particularly North African immigrants coming in, yes, they're great for our economy, they're contributing, you know, many, many times more than they're receiving in welfare. But it's also a moral obligation. There's something about humans here. And I thought that also connected to his international position, his comfort, talking about ethics, international law, and framing things. And I think that's so important. I mean, I keep coming back to my obsession with Aristotle, saying that the three things that matter for him are logos, pathos, and ethos, which are the. In my terms, the policy ideas, the communication, but also the morality. You know, what's the ethical values framework underpinning it? And I thought he was very good at that.

I mean, I did a bit of sort of ringing around and beforehand and of course, my all time favorite Spaniard. Do you know who my all time favorite Spaniard is?

Miriam Gonzalez.

Correct. Mrs. Nick Clegg is my all time favorite Spanish. And she will not be enjoying this conversation because she's not a fan.

No, no. I think maybe because of that. You. You said to me, rory, I don't think you're going to like him as much as you think that you'll like him.

No, no. The reason I thought of that is because actually when push comes to shove, Rory, you are basically a conservative. He is, he is, he is to the. He is, I'd say, to the left of me on all sorts of different issues. What I think Miriam doesn't like is, is his ability to project himself internationally as this very progressive voice and what have you. She said, for example, we didn't really get into this because I think it's too much down in the weeds of Spanish politics. But this point about only having three budgets in eight years is partly been allowed because he's very good at signing executive orders, a bit like Trump. She would argue that he's actually been, you know, in relation to the judiciary, free media, that he's a lot more a kind of old fashioned sort of, you know, controlling politician that he gets credit for. And also I think her other big point is that it's all very well to talk the talk about European dynamism and European modernizing and making the economy more efficient, but in the Spanish context, is he really doing that, other than through this message about immigration? But listen, I found him really compelling. Compelling, I think. And I think what I go for is what I agree with you. It's just that neither he nor his team made any effort really to find out what sort of. They know what our interviews are like, but they weren't sort of trying to find out what we were most interested in, what we were going to push on. We set out in the introduction all of the areas that you and I had kind of thought about getting into. And in all of them, I just found him very, very clear. He's got that old fashioned thing of listen to a question, answer the question, make a point that might lead you to another question. And on the conversation goes, which I found very, very refreshing. Just to go back to your point about whether this is a Keir Starmer strategy, interestingly, when Anthony Scaramucci and I did our show in Belfast, and of course Belfast is part of the United Kingdom, but they don't they have very different politics, different parties, different debates, but they follow our politics very, very closely. What was really interesting, when I did one of my show of hands thing about who's going to win the next election, there was some support for saying it would be Keir Starmer. There was a lot of support for saying it will be a Labour leader that is not Keir Starmer. There was zero, I think zero for the idea that the Tories are going to win the next election. Election. And there was pretty muted, pretty mutedly the idea that there was going to be farage. Now I actually think that it is not impossible that Keir Starmer can win the next election in part because of what you just identified. This. 34, 33. 33. The only thing I'd say is I think our politics is even more volatile than Spanish politics right now. And Keir Starmer, unfortunately, from his and Labour's perspective, perspective doesn't have this sense that Sanchez is giving his own people of kind of energy and dynamism, direction. And honestly, Rory, I had, I only had, you know, I don't like quoting taxi drivers. I had two taxis. Two taxis. What you doing in Spain? Told them. The first one said he is the best president we have ever had and it's about time we realized it. And the second guy just said, you know that guy, I don't care what the pole say, he's going to win again.

I think it's interesting also how there would have been a very cynical view which he would have got from some of his polling people who might have said to him a few years ago, for God's sake, the only thing people care about is talking about cost of living. Don't go out there and champion immigration. There's a lot of people who do not want a lot of immigrants coming to Spain. Shut up about that and listen. People aren't that interested in international affairs and taking some big idealistic position on not using Spanish bases is just going to piss off the Americans, lead to tariff wars, wreck your relationships with NATO. Just shut up about it. But actually, I think it's an example of where taking a very clear, unambiguous primary color position helps. I mean, I don't want to get dragged back again into the Keir Starmer thing. But one of the issues around his position, even if you're on your side and think it was the right thing to do, is it's not a very primary colours position. It's a position where we are seeing American jets taking off from British airstrips all the time, while he's also taking on Trump. Final thing, I thought as I was putting our interview together, with the interviews we did with Kyriakos Mitsotakis in the Prime Minister of Greece and with Eddie Rama in Albania and Alvin Kurt Stub, Jonas Gastora in Norway, these guys are oddly much more confident, talking in a really interesting, articulate way about international affairs than almost any of the leading British politicians. And I don't know why that is. There's something very odd. These people feel incredibly confident internationally. Now, it may be that for some reason they're ending up with these people with much more international careers. So he obviously served in the European Commission. Mitsotakis has worked all over the world.

Stubb was a diplomat.

Exactly. And it's true Yanis Kastora was the Executive Director of the World Health Organization. But there is something quite interesting about these senior European figures where they feel much more sort of global, internationally sophisticated, confident, making claims about the shape of the world. I mean, Mark Carney would be another classic examp after this. But the Brits are not. I'm not hearing that from Yvette Cooper. I'm not hearing that from Keir Starmer. Am I right that this British politics feels a bit different? Whereas I suspect Tony Blair would have been very comfortable talking like that, being one of those kind of people.

Look, I think Brexit is a big part of this. We'll come on to that. I think that Keir Starmer definitely feels instinctively that. But a big part of his job is foreign affairs and foreign policy, particularly now with Ukraine and Iran and all this. And that's a big part of his job. But you can see in his communication, he always feels he has to be somehow relating it to cost of living your lives at home and what have you. What I'm seeing with the European leaders is less of that need. And I think the other thing to understand is that. And this came through very much in particular, particularly maybe with the interview with Alexander Stubb, President of Finland, because he does foreign policy, but he doesn't do Europe. Now, there's still a mindset in Britain that thinks, well, Europe is foreign policy, but if you're one of these guys, no, it's not. It is a part of your everyday kind of political, political life. I also think the other thing where you talked about their confidence in how they express themselves on these issues, the other thing that I think links all of those people that you mentioned is how steadily they are becoming much, much more open and frank about what they now consider to be a fact, not an opinion, a fact. Brexit has been really bad for Europe and dreadful for the United Kingdom. And if the British government had any sense, they just kind of dive into the water cold and say, we're going to fix this. He said it very much in those terms, Stubb. That is his view that, you know, he said the thing about seven years to leave, seven years to find out you've made a mistake. Hopefully not seven years to get back in. And I think you asked him whether, you know. But isn't this still the kind of French thing of wanting to rub these guys noses in the dirt for a bit longer? Again, they all seem to be thinking no, because this is the world is now too serious. And genuinely, we do miss the Brits. We do lose something by not having the British. But listen, I completely agree with you. I said last week that just out of the Iran thing, I'd love to have heard a big speech about Churchill's

[Rory Stewart]

view of the world.

[Alistair Campbell]

I'd love to have heard a big speech about how this is the moment for renewables to kind of have the next agenda. And likewise on this international stuff, I think we've got to stop pretending it's just a kind of little extension of domestic stuff. It's fundamental. The leadership required is fundamental. The issue issues that arise from peace, prosperity, energy, this international situation. I'm with you. I want to hear more from our politicians, not sort of embarrassed about it.

It's so interesting because when I entered Parliament 2010, I would have said that the general feeling when I went to EU Council meetings, this kind of stuff, is that it was the British politicians who were much more confident making big global statements, talking about the Middle east, talking about international law. And a lot of the European politicians back 15, 20 years ago felt much more domestic. Some of them Austrian politicians I can remember, felt almost like local councillors who'd somehow wandered into national politics. Now it's feeling very different. It now feels as though these European leaders, sometimes from quite small countries, have a kind of sophistication, intelligence, intellectual ambition.

We've got the Hungarian election coming up on April 12th that is going to be one of the most watched elections in the world in a relatively small European country. Now that's because Orban is such a kind of part of the MAGA thing. But no, I'm completely with you. And I think the other thing where I said to him at one point, do you think Europe's lost his confidence? And he said no, but Europe does have to step up on the economic dynamism does have to step up. And this is where Miriam would say he's just not doing it on policy terms. But I still have this view. When we interviewed Alexander Stubbe and he's written this book, the Triangle of Power, Global West, Global East, Global south, and you said to him, look, maybe it should be a quadrangle of power. And I am absolutely convinced that the bottom of the quadrangle has to be Europe. And interesting again, even though when push comes to shove and they have to all sign or pass a treaty or get a law through their own parliament about allowing in Ukraine, Montenegro, Albania, etc. Will they all actually want to do that? I don't know, but he was very, very clear. More Europe, more countries in the European Union, including hopefully Ukraine and the uk. That's a proper vision. That's a proper, a proper sense of something really big that we want to fight for. And I think that what's happened post Brexit, particularly given that so many of our politicians, Johnson, Farage, the Tories, reform, still try to pretend that Brexit's been a really good thing for the country, we're having a kind of la la land debate. It's not a real debate about what's actually happening in our own country. It's very, very weird.

I've been really cheered up actually by, as I say, half a dozen dozen of the European leaders we've spoken to recently.

And Rory, what about La Monclois? I mean, if that's your working environment, I mean, I have seen rats, okay, I have, I have seen rats in Downey street, in the Elyse Palace. Okay, I didn't see any rats. That was like being in an art gallery. Beautiful.

All right, well, Alistair, thank you. See you very soon.

See you soon.

[Rory Stewart]

Take care.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Bye.

[William Durand]

Hello, it's William Drimple again from Empire. Here is a clip from our recent six part series on Mao Zedong.

[Empire Series Narrator]

The great leaf forward was supposed to be, on its face, a kind of highly rationalized bureaucratic system of working out what China could produce and then, you know, working upwards so that you would produce, you know, enough food for everyone to, to eat and crops that could then be exported to increase China's GDP and everything would be great, but basically because all the figures are being fiddled by officials who are too terrified to give the real information in case they get arrested or, you know, kind of fired from their, their jobs, they pass on statistics upwards saying, yes, it's all going great and we're kind of producing huge amounts of grain and products and up, you know, in the cities and then, you know, beyond that to Beijing. The guys at the top are saying, oh well, this is great. Well in that case we can export lots of to the Soviet Union. So you have the kind of obscenity of out in the countryside there isn't enough food for people to eat while the grain is being seized and exported from the country to bring in money for the state. This is very much a rural phenomenon. And that's significant because of course, shortly before this, the system which still exists today was started up in China of a sort of Soviet style internal passport system. It's called the hukou or household registration scheme. And it basically means that you can't just simply wander around wherever you want in China. You have to sort of have internal permission. So people in the cities were no longer really kind of interacting that much with the countryside. They were kind of almost separated off. And while people in the cities, you know, found there was a certain amount of deprivation, the devastation was really out in the countryside where essentially it turned into mass starvation. About 1959, 1960, 61, it became clear in the countryside there simply wasn't enough food to go around. But when the needle news came through to the top leadership, including Mao, he basically chose to ignore it. He didn't exactly deny it, but he basically said, well, you know, we need to keep going. And he said something like, if things are not going so well, then let's just not say anything about it and keep going. And that led to one of the great confrontations of that period, which is the conference, Communist Party top level conference held at Lushan.

[William Durand]

We hope you enjoyed that clip. To listen to the full series search Empire World has wherever you get your

[Podcast Host]

podcasts,

[Alistair Campbell]

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