181. Ai Weiwei: China, Censorship, and Dissidence Through Art

Summary

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The Rest Is Politics: Leading – Episode 181

Ai Weiwei: China, Censorship, and Dissidence Through Art
Date: March 23, 2026
Hosts: Alastair Campbell, Rory Stewart
Guest: Ai Weiwei (Artist, Activist, Writer)

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Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging, candid and often philosophical conversation, hosts Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart interview renowned Chinese artist and activist Ai Weiwei. The discussion traces Ai Weiwei's upbringing as the son of a persecuted poet; his own experiences with exile, art, and activism; the evolution of modern China; censorship and freedom in the East and West; and the concept of the "gentleman scholar." Ai Weiwei reflects on dissidence, identity, family, and where true integrity lies amid an ever-complex global landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. On Family, Upbringing, and History (01:35–06:00)

• Ai Weiwei’s father, a renowned poet, suffered persecution—imprisoned, exiled as a "rightist" after joining the Communist revolution. Weiwei describes an extraordinary childhood marked by state oppression.
  • “He joined the revolution communist in Yan'an … then being criticized as a rightist. So the year 1957 when he was exiled, I was born.” – Ai Weiwei (03:43)
• The family was exiled to Xinjiang. Ai recalls life in labor camps and public humiliations endured by his father:
  • “He has to appear in this very remote poor village … confess his so called crime in front of those never uneducated farmers.” – Ai Weiwei (05:05)
• Living under constant threat and public shaming shaped Ai’s lifelong skepticism of mass conformity.
  • “What developed in me is to see how masks can be easily so dumb … everyone act stupidly and everyone think they are right.” – Ai Weiwei (09:14)

2. On Becoming an Artist and Defining Identity (10:47–12:00)

• Ai questions the labels imposed on him ("artist", "activist"), stressing his path was shaped by chance and circumstance:
  • “People put a lot of name on me—artist or activist also. I don’t know what’s the difference … What happened to me is purely chance and miracle.” – Ai Weiwei (10:59)

3. National Upheaval, Political Education, and Disillusionment (11:52–16:24)

• Witnessing seismic events—Nixon’s visit, Lin Biao’s death, Mao’s passing—demonstrated the fragility of ideological narratives in China.
  • “You realize, oh my God, what have been building our mind is all can be changed just within one second.” – Ai Weiwei (12:31)
  • “That is my first education about international politics.” – Ai Weiwei (13:23)
• The historic unpredictability fed a lasting mistrust of the government and prompted his eventual move to New York as a young man.

4. Reflections on Mao and the Cultural Revolution (16:24–24:10)

• Nuanced assessment: Ai admires Mao’s intellectual prowess and strategy, but denounces his cruelty and the mass persecution of intellectuals.
  • “He destroys all … trying to maintain his power under control.” – Ai Weiwei (17:34)
  • “He’s very crude person too … under his control about half million of intellectual being purged.” (17:35)
• The Cultural Revolution marked a violent, systemic erasure of China's millennia-old culture and a redefinition of social roles.

5. Exile, Return, and Emergence as a Dissident (24:10–31:57)

• In the U.S., Ai experienced both radical freedom and alienation:
  • “I don’t feel very comfortable in United States … it’s not exactly freedom.” – Ai Weiwei (24:38)
• On returning to China, he inadvertently became prominent by building a landmark studio and voicing open criticisms online.
  • “I started to investigate [the] Sichuan earthquake, the disappearing of … children … that generates so much attention because the government is so shy … They don’t know how to stop me. Till one day they shut off my Internet.” – Ai Weiwei (31:26–33:35)

6. On the Sichuan Earthquake and Social Justice (31:57–34:44)

• Investigating the disappearance (death) of over 5,000 schoolchildren after the 2008 earthquake radicalized his activism.
  • “We did it. We located 5,219 students’ name, birthday, which school, their family, daily. I post this online. That generates so much attention.” – Ai Weiwei (33:01)
• States his sense of duty is not artistic but human; art is inseparable from integrity and truth:
  • “For me, it’s really for myself. I have to do it. I don’t have a choice.” (34:48)

7. Detention and the Risks of Dissent (36:54–39:27)

• Ai describes his secret 81-day detention under the Chinese regime, referencing the dangers and a kind of dark pride in joining his father’s tradition of persecution.
  • “I always jealous. My father, he was sentenced for six years … I never reached that point … I think 80 years later, I cannot predict I will be kidnapped by state and put in this secret detention for 81 days.” – Ai Weiwei (36:59)
• The emotional horror was less about himself and more for his young son:
  • “When interrogator tells me when you serve your sentence could be 10 to 13 years … your son will never recognize you. That … is scary to me.” (38:30)

8. Censorship in China and the West: Comparing Freedoms (39:27–43:50)

• Critiques the illusion of freedom in the West, referencing anti-war protests and media control in the U.S.:
  • “This is typical police state … you can have some voice, but your voice can never really be heard.” – Ai Weiwei (40:00)
• On Julian Assange and Western hypocrisy:
  • “If there was no highway public pressure, he can end up his life in there. So then now you ask what kind of crime he really made?” (41:52)
  • “West have no moral position even to pose fingers to China … Just look at the mirror what you did in past years in relation to all the international events … Gaza, every respect.” (43:18)

9. Uyghurs, Gaza, and Human Rights Comparisons (44:09–45:56)

• Ai challenges Western “moral superiority,” equating narratives about Xinjiang’s Uyghurs with Gaza:
  • “You cannot talk about Uyghurs, not talk about Gaza. Gaza has been longest prison for decades … It’s much harsh situation in Gaza.” – Ai Weiwei (45:20 & 45:33)

10. Identity, Exile, and Family (46:00–47:41)

• Ai discusses feeling like a perpetual outsider, never fully at home in China, America, or Europe.
• Shares a poignant rift with his own son, paralleling his distance from his parents:
  • “He refused to talk to me anymore … all the teenagers. But I feel happy, proud about him. I said, yes, you can go as far as you can. That means that’s what I want.” – Ai Weiwei (46:44, 46:46, 47:18)

11. The Evolution of Chinese Culture and Future (47:41–48:27)

• Predicts China must confront and repair vast ideological gaps from the past century, caught between communism, capitalism, and a loss of tradition.

12. The Scholar-Gentleman and Public Service (52:45–53:47)

• Ai extols the “independent thinker” and traditional Chinese “gentleman scholar” who acts out of conviction to serve society:
  • “Absolutely most important idea for an individual can be proud of is to be an independent thinker and to act on your belief.” (52:53)
  • “Chinese idea about scholar … not just to help to build your inner strength, but also to serve the mass, serve the people.” (53:14)

13. Assessing Chinese Leaders: Mao, Deng, and Xi (16:24, 17:34, 53:47–55:11)

• Ai remains careful but notes his family’s personal connection to Xi Jinping’s family—both “punished” by the regime at points.
• He (cautiously) endorses some foreign policies of China, citing a “neutral” approach to international affairs.

14. On Refugees: Moral Duty and Western Failures (56:57–58:51)

• Draws on Chinese medicine as an analogy—prevention over treatment, questioning the roots of global refugee flows and Western complicity:
  • “We have to have a compassion and to understand … who caused those war and famine. We have to really question ourselves why we don’t help them to stay at their home.” (57:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Crowd Mentality:
  “Everyone is blind, everyone act stupidly and everyone think they are right.” – Ai Weiwei (09:14)

• On Art and Activism:
  “People put a lot of name on me—artist or activist also. I don’t know what’s the difference … What happened to me is purely chance and miracle.” – Ai Weiwei (10:59)

• Political Epiphany as a Teenager:
  “What have been building our mind is all can be changed just within one second.” – Ai Weiwei (12:31)

• On Investigative Work:
  “We located 5,219 students’ name, birthday, which school, their family, daily. I post this online.” – Ai Weiwei (33:01)

• On the Need for Integrity:
  “For me, it’s really for myself. I have to do it. I don’t have a choice.” – Ai Weiwei (34:48)

• On Western “Freedoms”:
  “You can have some voice, but your voice can never really be heard.” – Ai Weiwei (40:00)

• On the Scholar Ideal:
  “The most important idea for an individual can be proud of is to be an independent thinker and to act on your belief.” – Ai Weiwei (52:53)

• On Identity:
  “I’m a global, not even citizen … maybe most fitting to my ideology would be the moon.” – Ai Weiwei (52:09)

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Highlighted Timestamps

• Early Life and Father’s Exile: 01:35–06:00
• Defining “Artist” and “Activist”: 10:47–12:00
• Nixon’s Visit, Mao’s Death, and Political Upheaval: 11:52–16:24
• Reflections on Mao and Cultural Revolution: 16:24–24:10
• Life in U.S. and Return to China: 24:10–28:49
• Studio Building and Online Activism: 28:49–33:35
• Sichuan Earthquake Investigation: 31:57–34:44
• Detention and Consequences of Dissent: 36:54–39:27
• Comparisons Between Censorship in East/West: 39:27–43:50
• Uyghurs, Gaza, and Double Standards: 44:09–45:56
• Family, Exile, and Fatherhood: 46:00–47:41
• The Scholar-Gentleman Ideal: 52:45–53:47
• On Xi Jinping and Modern Chinese Leadership: 53:47–55:11
• Refugees and Western Responsibility: 56:57–58:51

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Hosts’ Final Reflections (59:00–67:15)

• Stewart and Campbell reflect on the tension between Ai’s identity as a dissident and his nuanced if sometimes defensive portrayal of China.
• They note his old-fashioned nostalgia for classical Chinese culture and the scholar-gentleman ideal.
• Both remark on the sadness and honesty regarding Ai’s family relationships, and his position “between worlds.”
• The hosts conclude that Ai Weiwei is less a conventional activist than a modern embodiment of the traditional Chinese independent scholar—driven by a need for truth, service, and autonomy.

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For anyone interested in the intersection of art, activism, and global politics, this episode offers a rich, thought-provoking look at how personal and collective histories collide in the making of a dissident—and what true independence of mind really means.

Transcript

[Rory Stewart]

Thanks for listening to the Rest is Politics. Sign up to the Rest is Politics plus to enjoy ad free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to the restispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com.

[Alistair Campbell]

Welcome to the Rest is Politics.

[Rory Stewart]

Leading with me Rory Stewart and with me Alistair Campbell. And we're very pleased to have AI Weiwei. He's an artist, an activist, a prolific writer and filmmaker, and an important voice in some of the most complex and important debates of our time. The rise of China, his role in the world, corruption in public life, attitudes to refugees, a big theme, and also censorship and free speech, and indeed whether we even have free speech, including in the West. He's 68. He's the son of a poet who was imprisoned, tortured and exiled in 1950s China, which made for a pretty extraordinary childhood for him. And he himself has known what it's like to be on the receiving end of harsh treatment from the authorities, and has therefore spent much of his life in the US and Europe, of which he's also got considerable criticism. Recently returned to China after around a decade away to visit his elderly mother with his son. And it will be fascinating to hear his views on China today as opposed to China when he was growing up there as a child. So, AI Weiwei, thank you for being here.

[Ai Weiwei]

It's so nice to be your studio.

[Alistair Campbell]

Can we begin a little bit with your childhood and your father? Who was your father and what was your experience when you were a child with your father?

[Ai Weiwei]

My father was born 1910, which is 10 years after eight nations invade China, which of course you know which eight nations. England, French, Italy, Germany, Russian, Japanese and Austria. They forced China to open up its market. But that effort started from 1840, the First Opium War and the Second Opium War. So English have three times invade China, force China to open up. So this is very interesting moment. Your head of state still in China, and this time much friendly.

[Rory Stewart]

Our head of state is the king, head of government. The head of government, prime minister is there. You're absolutely right.

[Ai Weiwei]

And to answer my father, he was born 10 years later, 1910, growing up as a poet and studied in Paris. And right after he went back in his early 20s, he'd been sentenced for six years for some kind of subversion of state power. That state was nationalist power, Kuomintang. So after years of some kind of refugee, because the Japanese invade China and have such a strong impact in China, so he has to running, trying to Find a place to be teacher or editor, you know, for. For literary man. That's only job probably at that time. But he could never really reached that point. He joined the revolution communist in Yan', an, which is how to say credo for communists and later established new China. Then he was in the very high position, probably highest position in literature and the most renowned poet as patriotic, anti mostly colonial and imperialism. Then being criticized as a rightist. So the year 1957 when he was exiled, I was born. That's a short story.

[Rory Stewart]

You were born same year as me, 1957. And you were one. When he was essentially banished from Beijing.

[Ai Weiwei]

He is completely disappeared, being sent to most remote area. That area is in the ancient China. They would send all the poet or distant tool. That means he will never come back. So I think it's not bad policy

[Alistair Campbell]

then kill them and just to develop. So he was sent to Xinjiang.

[Ai Weiwei]

Xinjiang.

[Alistair Campbell]

And then you then had to travel with him in the back of a truck to what was basically an army camp where he was given the job of cutting, trimming trees. But he also had to appear in public every day where he was attacked for being a rightist.

[Ai Weiwei]

He has to appear in this very remote poor village. But it's kind of semi military type. That means if Russia invades us that time Russia is number one enemy because they're getting so close and have a huge amount of soldiers restored next to the border of China. So every day we are preparing to defend ourselves from Russian. We even learned a few Russian words to say raise your hands will not kill you if you, you know, just, just raise your hand. So all those Russian language, it doesn't sound true, but we have to live in the village. My father have to confess his so called crime in front of those never uneducated farmers.

[Alistair Campbell]

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[Rory Stewart]

What did they see as his crime? What was his crime?

[Ai Weiwei]

He doesn't really know he has any crime but he have to. He's anti revolutionary and most people think he's a nobleist because people doesn't even know how a poet can commit a crime. So yeah it's just everything is so blind and of course this is basically a human condition at that time.

[Rory Stewart]

And how did that you growing up with that. So seeing your father being punished, being humiliated and you're alongside him, what did that develop in you?

[Ai Weiwei]

What developed in me is to see how masks can be easily so dumb and so have no possibility to searching for any truth that build on me from very early age you can see everyone is blind, everyone act stupidly and everyone Think they are right.

[Alistair Campbell]

And how kind were people to your father? Were some people very kind and generous to him? Did people every day some people say I'm sorry for you. Or were they afraid to say that

[Ai Weiwei]

to understand him you really have to read his poetry, which I cannot read because that time all the books had been destroyed. But from my daily sense about him, he's an honest man. He's very naive type. He can be happy any moment and he's not someone complain all the time. Even he does most difficult job. He would tell me, you see, I'm 60 years old. I never know even who cleaned my toilet before. Now I clean for them. What's so you know, nothing wrong with it. And he tell my mom, of course, my mom used to live in very high position with him to say, we have just to think we were born here. So I think he's a man with a big heart and very kind.

[Rory Stewart]

And what made you become an artist? What had happened in your life that. Well, that led to that? And where does the crazy.

[Ai Weiwei]

I still question you, am I artist?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Ai Weiwei]

Or you know, people put a lot of name on me, artists or activists also. I don't know what's the difference between artist, activist. But anyhow, I survived by doing my work now. And it's not such a good profession. I would not encourage anybody to do that. You know, what happened to me is purely chance and miracle. I cannot repeat it, because the time, because my history, my position and because my. I don't know, because what. Because all mistakes I made, I become a so called artist.

[Alistair Campbell]

Just to get from when you were a young boy, age 10, to when you were maybe 25, what happened between the labor camp in Xinjiang to you as a young man, what happened in that period?

[Ai Weiwei]

That period time. Basically there's a time for huge political change. First Nixon come to China and then everybody shocked because Nixon is our top enemy. Suddenly appeared in Beijing, you know, Chairman Mao happily receiving him. Then you realize, oh my God, what have been building our mind is all can be changed just within one second,

[Rory Stewart]

just to drill on that. So the country would have seen Nixon as an enemy.

[Ai Weiwei]

Oh yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

And suddenly he's being portrayed as a friend.

[Ai Weiwei]

Yeah, this capitalism, it's an enemy not only for this country, for, you know, we learned from Karl Marx about capitals. We learned from Vladimir Yiichi Lenin, you know, the, you know, the imperialism is end of capitalism. You know, I read those books, I read the Communist Manifesto. One was 10. So how this could be this paper tiger United States, which Chairman Mao called United States just a paper tagger really come to China and shake hands and hugs with top leaders drink moutai. And they are so happily together. Seems like their families. So that is my first education about international politics.

[Rory Stewart]

What age were you then?

[Ai Weiwei]

1972.

[Rory Stewart]

You're a teenager? You're 15?

[Ai Weiwei]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

So that felt like a big moment in the country.

[Ai Weiwei]

A big moment. Actually one incident happened is 1971, when Chairman Mao have official. How do you say someone would become a person at his position as Lin Biao, which is highest top military military leader. His airplane dropped in Mongolia when he tried to escape. Then that is about internal politics. How can Communist Party the second person just trying to escape. Then the next year, you know, Nixon comes. That is changed. Or it's such a very wild education beyond any dream can happen at time. And by 76, Mao died that same year. Strange. Three top leaders all dead same year. Zhou Enlai and Zhu De. And that time I was swimming in a park. Then I heard the sound of the radio. That time is no television. So that means the sky collapsed For Chinese. This is like a holy person suddenly disappeared. So there's a few years of vacancy there. Nobody know what to do. And of course Deng Xiaoping follows come up. Basically, Deng Xiaoping comes as some kind of military coup. Because they sized who's supposed to be in the government. You know, Mao's wife and other group four of the Gang of Four? Yeah, Gang of four. So you know. But everybody's happy because that really announced the Chairman Mao's time is over. But what is going to come? Nobody know. So by that period time I got into Beijing Film Institute. The first art college after closing during the Cultural Revolution opened. So I got into that school study. How do you call cartoon design. That time the only cartoon we can see is Tom and Jerry, which I still love today. And then I definitely think I have to escape because there's many details I will not mention. So I don't trust the new established government. So the only place I would like to go is New York. Because that's the heart of our enemy used to be. So I like to be there. Then by 24 I went to United States.

[Rory Stewart]

And what was your assessment at the time? Or maybe a little bit later, when you're an adult into your 20s. What was your assessment of Mao?

[Ai Weiwei]

Chairman Mao or Mao is very special person. I would say you only can put a person in the historical context. Nobody can judge anybody without this kind of historical contact. He born in a farmer's family in Hunan. But he's so knowledgeable about Chinese literature and history his whole life. Like the room like this or four of them. All the documents he just loved reading. His mind is crazy. He's a poet. He's very good strategical leader and he knows how to play political game. And he's also very subversive. He can use the public opinion to destroy the whole system, you know, system he established. So he destroys all the whole system trying to maintain his power under control.

[Rory Stewart]

So it sounds like he had a lot of respect.

[Ai Weiwei]

Oh, he had a high respect in China and from you half and a half. I have a respect for his wisdom in the struggle for Chinese early struggle. Because that time he has to fight not Japanese but really nationalist and those have American supported army. And you know, he only have a very, very little chance with 40,000 people in poorest area which include my father there. And they. They have a great patient. They wait the moment to come then you know they get the chance. So it's very wisdom. But he's very crude person too cruel. Yeah, cruel person because under his control about half million of intellectual being purged. Of course he doesn't kill anybody. He just let them go to so called re education camp.

[Alistair Campbell]

One of the things that's so difficult to understand about China is that you go from thousands of years of this very, very deep culture civilization and then you hit the Cultural Revolution and everything seems to be broken. There's this break from the deep past to the present. What is this about? Can you. How do you think about the Cultural Revolution?

[Ai Weiwei]

Thank you. It's a good question. But we have to start a little bit earlier than cultural revolution first by 2021 China have accepted the idea of Russian communist.

[Alistair Campbell]

1921.

[Ai Weiwei]

Yeah, they had the first on a boat, about 13 people. Someone said it's only 11. But it's never really clear under the date. It's not clear to establish a Chinese Communist Party. And there's two person on that group. One is from Russia with Li Ning's. How do I say? It's like a Russian delegation. Just one person and another I think is from a Dutch. So from very beginning Chinese Communist Party is really helped by foreign forces which you know, the government every day now is so careful about foreign forces anti China forces. But they are the typical foreign anti China that time the establishment and the first document for Communist Party you know, you have to write down the party's delegation is on Russian because they don't have taboo rather for Chinese long before that established. Can you believe The Communist Party first document is Russian and the page 11 is missing. Nobody know where is the page 11. You know, all those details are so funny. And by then China just overthrew the Qing Dynasty the federalist control for thousands of years. And trying to find a new way. Why they have to do it? Because 1900 they realize the west are very extendedly developed with their boat and their cannon. And China just still use knives trying to protect themselves. So they think the weakness of China is because Qing Dynasty is incapable to. To dealing with industrial state. So by that time all the intellectuals had two ideas. One I did two concepts called China have to be reborn and to establish Mr. De and Mr. S. That means democracy and the science. So that's the first goal. All the intellectuals trying to establish China with this democracy and science. Till today they cannot establish that. But that's early principle and ideology. But we call it May 4th Movement. But until Communists established in 1949, that's the first time they destroyed the foundation of the own China. Because they kill all the landlord. Landlord in China is only educated people. And they carries the fundamental values and all the culture heritage. Only because landlord farmers are educated. They kill all the landlord trying to please a farmer to establish this Russian type of. Not Russian, but how do I say. Soviet type of establishment.

[Alistair Campbell]

Your father's father was a small landlord.

[Ai Weiwei]

A small landlord.

[Alistair Campbell]

So he understood calligraphy, painting books. Tell us a little bit about that culture which vanished.

[Ai Weiwei]

Well, landlord in that time, not just someone trying to, you know, get money or land, but rather a very educated class. They all learned calligraphy, writing poems, build nice houses and you know, not church, but Chinese, you know, to help the whole society to worship. What happens in the past. So when that completely destroyed, then the next is so called anti rightist movement which vanished. The children or related intellectuals to the old past. About half million of them disappeared. Yeah, they all like my father, sent to exile. Then the next thing is Cultural Revolution. That is a movement, use their words. It touches every soul of every individual. Everyone is involved. There's no one exception. So children's school, they have to, you know, remember Chairman Mao's sentence or you know, all very political. So it come to extreme cleanup of the society with heavy political propaganda.

[Rory Stewart]

You mentioned that you went to the United States and then when you. When you went back to China, although as you say, you're defined as an artist, it was actually, am I right that it was your writing as much as anything that drew you to the attention of the authorities and that then started to harass and. And become the victim of violence and also at one point become arrested for what was presumably a kind of invented crime. Can you just talk me through what that was like?

[Ai Weiwei]

You're talking about 30 years of history. I went to United States first when I was 24 and I studied in New York for a short time. And let make it short. I was very poor, I was foreigner, I don't speak words of English. And the first words I learned is excuse me. I think that is so difficult for me to say excuse me. But my. My girlfriend said you have to see this. If you, you know, in supermarket, pulling a car somewhere, then I don't feel very comfortable in United States. You know, it's so much free and nobody can really tell me what to do. But that also pretty bad because you don't know what to do. For me, I really understand this so called freedom. It's not exactly freedom. You have to really establish yourself and meet this kind of personal competition and challenge and become successful or establish something so called to secure yourself. I don't like that that much, you know, because too much effort you will put in. And I know I will never become a so called successful artist. It's only 50 in the whole United States. And the rest is just endless struggle. Will disappear somehow. So by 1993, I found the excuse to go back because my father was terribly ill. And 12 years I haven't seen him. I was promising never go back. But I broke my words. I said this is the last chance I have excuse to go back. So I moved back to China. So then I have nothing to do. My father told me, hey, this is your home, you don't have to act like a guest. You should do whatever you want to do. And I still cannot adjust myself. I still become a guest of my country. Because the country I never have any nostalgia feeling about it. All I have is, you know, bad feelings. And then China has already moved forward to become a much progressive society. Under Deng Xiaoping's slogan, let's become rich first. That's all his idea. The idea affect China till now. So it's very simple, very practical man, Deng Xiaoping and smart. Play poker game all the time. And that's interesting part about him. He likes to play poker game.

[Rory Stewart]

You're a blackjack guy.

[Ai Weiwei]

I also play poker game and I like card game, you know. So then I have nothing to do. Until my mom said, you know, Sam never went to United States, you know, what have you learned? I have no idea. You have no American passport, you never get a university degree. You don't even know how to drive a car. You know, you're never married. What's wrong with you? Please move out. Because I play poker with my brother all the time. She hated. She thinks it's just complete a waste.

[Alistair Campbell]

Just for a second on this, please. What did you do for 12 years in America? What is the answer to your mother? What did you do during that time? You didn't. You didn't get a degree? You didn't learn to drive a car. What were you doing?

[Ai Weiwei]

I was hanging on street in Lower east side, you know, with all the homeless drug dealers and you know, it's kind of dangerous, dark area. Not like today is very fashionable. I live on, you know, 3rd street between Avenue A and B. If people ask me where you live, I tell them address, they suddenly become silent. They will not ask another question. So which makes me very satisfied.

[Rory Stewart]

But how did you live? You had to make money.

[Ai Weiwei]

I did everything you can imagine. I was babysitter, I was fixing antique furniture. I do house painting or construction work. I worked in printing factory, I worked in framing shops. Also I played blackjack in Taj Mahal of Trump's casino. I give finger to that too that time. And yeah, I do everything. And I was a street do street portraits.

[Rory Stewart]

So let's go forward then to when you suddenly become a target of the authorities. I just wanted to know what that experience was.

[Ai Weiwei]

Not so sudden. I will never become like that. It's first there's. I built my own studio after my mom kicked me out. I have to find a place to live. I don't want to live in apartment. Since I come back from New York, I have a dream to build my studio. I went to a village. They said, oh yeah, you can rent the land. Because the land grow vegetables can never make as much money as renting. So I said, yeah, that makes sense, you know. So then I didn't think, oh, if I rent the land, what those farmers want to do? So that's just same question if AI happens, what all those people will do? So yeah, I built my studio. Suddenly that studio become some kind of landmark in China. Because nobody builds studio like that. Nobody even know what the studio look like. And all the architecture magazine internationally reported I become a spokesperson with new idea and a new style and new society. So they invited me to be on Internet. I said, no, no, no, I don't touch computer. I don't know how to type Chinese words. Even they say with your, you're so smart, you can learn quickly. They're right. I quickly learned it the first sentence I put on there is to express yourself need a reason. But to express yourself is the reason that take me two days to think of what will be first words I put on Internet. But that's a good starting point. After that, every day I would write three, four articles openly discuss anything nobody want to even discuss. So I just opened the newspaper, seized some topic, gave some my opinion. Till one day I started to investigate Sichuan earthquake, the disappearing of the 5,335 children. And before that I was involved in design of Olympic Stadium for 2008. So all those built me up in a very high. How do you call this kind of profile? Because a lot of young people think this guy talked something nobody ever would openly talk. And he's so gutty. At the same time, his design is the most glamorous stadium for international listeners.

[Alistair Campbell]

So the Sichuan earthquake happens. All these people are killed and some children disappear. Can you explain a little bit about that?

[Ai Weiwei]

Yes. Sichuan earthquake happened in May 12 in Vingchuan area in Sichuan. During that time, it just may be a few minutes of shaking. That's about a level of earthquake killed about 70 to 80,000 people. And of course everybody is sad. But same time they all blame this is a natural disaster. What are you going to do about it? But I realize, you know, many buildings around school are not even collapsed. But Those school collapsed 5,000 more people student disappeared. But government never answered me. I made hundred phone calls to ask this. They said no, no, no, this is national secret and why you have to know it. And are you American spy or something? I said, what are you talking about? Also online, because I'm very active announcer. I will personally find those names.

[Rory Stewart]

And you did eventually.

[Ai Weiwei]

I did, I did. It's miracle. We did it. We located 5219 students name birthday, which school, their family daily. I post this online that generates so much attention because the government is so shy to see every day this guy put one to 100 names there newly found. And the government, local government is shaking because this guy is ruthless and they don't know how to stop me. Till one day they shut off my Internet.

[Rory Stewart]

It's really interesting that the Sichuan earthquake seems to have and the consequence for these children seems to have radicalized you in a way that was still to this day, a lot of your art seems to be about that. Why was that such a thing?

[Ai Weiwei]

Unfortunately, we have happiness and we have sadness. It's both human emotions. And I'm leaving a period of time and location. I see those tragic sadness relate to individuals very often being not to talk about. So as artists I or not artists human being, I would think I have to protect my integrity of, you know, fellow human being being hurt. I have to really pronounce it and let people know what I feel about it. So that relates to social justice and for me, it's really for myself. I have to do it and I don't have a choice.

[Rory Stewart]

Do you define that as the artistic impulse later?

[Ai Weiwei]

Because people keep asking me your artists like my interrogator during my detention, they sent away you're artist and why you're doing the work lawyers should do or journalists should do and you're even doing better than them. I said maybe I'm not artist. So that's I think the people's idea about who is artist and how artists should perform, which doesn't really fit me.

[Rory Stewart]

Okay, AI Weiwei, Rory, quick break and then back for more.

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[Alistair Campbell]

Tell us a little bit about the detention. What happened?

[Ai Weiwei]

You only have one hour, right? A man always have a perspective of time and space. Detention simply it should come to me because I've been too wild and with my ideology of what I'm writing I can be easily be punished as death sentence during Cultural Revolution hundred times. According that's quote of their words is the way you did, you can be really killed hundred times if just 10, 20 years earlier. Yes, detention comes to me, which I can predict. But at the same time I kind of feel satisfied because I always jealous. My father, he was sentenced for six years in his 20s. I think anybody, if fighting for aesthetics or ideology, being sentenced early is really something can be proud of. So I think I never reached that point. I think 80 years later, I cannot predict I will be kidnapped by state and put in this secret detention for 81 days. So the story is pretty simple. They just want to, I think mainly scar me.

[Rory Stewart]

Were you scared?

[Ai Weiwei]

I'm not scared, but I'm. You know, I. I thought it was some kind of black humor. Because why you have to put a black hole for me and send me to some unknown location and not to let me get in touch with my family and give me like a very intensive interrogation, ask all kinds of funny questions. I'm not scared, but I feel sorry for my son. He's only 2 years old. So I feel when interrogator tells me when you serve your sentence could be 10 to 13 years when you come out, your son will never recognize you. That even may not be true, but it's scary to me. I feel deeply sorry at this something which very irresponsible to someone else.

[Rory Stewart]

That time your passport is taken off, you eventually get your passport back and you start to travel again. And what I've been really interested. You've got a book out at the moment on censorship. And I said in the introduction, I get the sense that you think we in the west sit here and we look at China and we think this is a repressive country. They have no free speech, they don't believe in human rights. But your experience of the west seems to have led you to conclude that actually there's not that much difference. I'm really interested in how you. How you make that argument.

[Ai Weiwei]

Well, I started early when US invaded Iraq. That time I was in New York, I was in part of this anti war coverage. I take my photos and you know, the demonstration. I realized the 1 demonstrate have less people than the police. Police on the two side of the street for the bypasser, you cannot even see demonstrators. You only see police there. So you can see this is typical police state. You would allow people to demonstrate, but their voice can never be really covered. Or even those act up, you know, those gay spray demonstration can never be Heard they have to find a strategy to running on highway to stop the highway. Then journalists would report the incident. So this is very established capitalism, society, media and the education and is all being controlled so well. And to tell you what is wrong, what is right, which is not so different from the Chinese society, except it seems, yes, you can have some voice, but your voice can never really be heard.

[Alistair Campbell]

There's a very interesting moment with Alexander Solzhenitsyn when he moves from Russia to America. He criticized America. He had been a dissident criticizing the Soviet Union. And then in a favorite speech he criticized America. But it's very difficult to hear because we want to say, come on, these two things are not the same. You know, nobody detained you for 81 days in America. Nobody put your father in exile.

[Ai Weiwei]

You know how long Julian Sangji has been in British jail? I visit the jail, I visit court, I visit the embassy. When he was hiding, I know exactly the whole case. His was pulled out by Burchish agent from the embassy. That is already pretty strange image. Everybody will remember he was carried out then he was being put in there. Without those highway public pressure, he can end up his life in there. So then now you ask what kind of crime he really made. You know, so called this WikiLeaks platform today everybody has a, you know, it's not that he's just a little bit early trying to expose, but we saw that even the file relate to this, this island.

[Rory Stewart]

Jeffrey Epstein.

[Ai Weiwei]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, come on, we all know what's going on, but the file is still not open. You know, the only possibility like WikiLeaks can open it. That guy even can commit suicide in jail. Can't believe it. And they said the the camera is not working. Come on, we have six, eight cameras here.

[Alistair Campbell]

It must be strange for you because the west saw you as a Chinese dissident. They liked you criticizing China. Now you criticize the West. So they must get surprised or uncomfortable.

[Ai Weiwei]

So uncomfortable after even yesterday I criticized, I said something the west have no moral position even to pose fingers to China. Because just look at the mirror what you did in past years in relate to all the international events in relate to Israel, Gaza event in relate to in almost every respect what is really being openly discussed.

[Rory Stewart]

And but if something like Julian Assange had done the equivalent in China, there is a fair chance he would be dead by now. And where are Uyghurs? What would you say was the West's Uyghurs? Would you say that's the Palestinians in

[Alistair Campbell]

Xinjiang The Uyghur situation, I think the

[Ai Weiwei]

west about Uyghurs also is a problem because. Because you clearly put the concentration camps, you know, to use a name, we know conceptually use certain names which has to clearly talk about something else. Then the Uyghur has been re educated in some areas, but not that Uygurs for me, my father as a Han dynasty, not Han race people. We come much earlier than Uighurs being re educated in 1957. So the west concept about that is really not respectful because you're choosing topics rather than giving even hands about the situation. That means you're you. You don't have integrity in what you're talking about. That's why I keep criticizing.

[Rory Stewart]

But the Uyghurs themselves, we've talked to the Uyghurs who are based in London. They talk about concentration camps. They say that's the reality of the life of the people that they've left behind. And otherwise could be true.

[Ai Weiwei]

But you cannot talk about Uyghurs, not talk about Gaza. Gaza has been longest prison for decades. You know that.

[Rory Stewart]

Would you say that's an equivalent?

[Ai Weiwei]

It's more than equivalent. It's much harsh situation in Gaza. You know what happens? All the women and children being killed, Uyghur not being killed in this kind of education. In Chinese wars they are being trained with some skills, with some propaganda education for them. It's what they did to me.

[Alistair Campbell]

So are you now in China more. Are you spending more time in China now?

[Ai Weiwei]

No, in 10 years I spent 21 days there.

[Alistair Campbell]

But you left Germany and then you were in Britain a bit and then in Portugal a bit. I mean, give me a sense of

[Ai Weiwei]

these different countries, my activity. People always ask, are you in Germany? I spent six years in Germany. Only my son studied there. So daily 6 o' clock I send him to school, 3 o' clock I take him back. That's father's responsibility. He already totally forgot about that part. Now he's in Britain and you know, he's such a well educated gentleman. 17 years old and he refused to talk to me anymore. You know, all the teenagers.

[Rory Stewart]

You don't mean literally. You don't mean he literally refuses to talk to you?

[Ai Weiwei]

Oh yes, literally.

[Rory Stewart]

Why?

[Ai Weiwei]

You know. Well, I think many parents would answer your question. They call it some kind of teenage rebellion. Yeah, but I never even heard about that before. You can be rebelling, but not in this kind of completely sense. But I feel happy, proud about him. I said, yes, you can go as far as you can. That means that's what I want. I don't want you just trying to pay some kind of fake respect to me. But just go as far as you can, you know.

[Rory Stewart]

But you'd be very unhappy if he never spoke to you again.

[Ai Weiwei]

Not true. I think he loves me. I love him. You know, this is blood situation. But he doesn't speak to me. I haven't speak to my father for 12 years when I was in United States. I haven't much spoke to my mom for previous 10 years. But still they are my family.

[Alistair Campbell]

Where do you think Chinese culture is going in the next 10, 20 years? Do you think people will begin to rediscover the past? They will show more respect for traditional classical culture? Or is that fading? What's happening with this?

[Ai Weiwei]

China has a lot of things to do to fill up the gap between 1900 to this 120 years. And they have been in such up and down, tremendous unsinkable ideology. Switch from federalism or communist, then it become a post state. You cannot call it communist, but you cannot call it capitalism. So it's really a new society. So they have a lot to learn and they have a lot to catch up.

[Rory Stewart]

Can I just go back to the parallels between west and east on freedom of speech as you said, Keir Starmer, our Prime Minister in China and anybody in Britain can go out and can protest against him visiting. They can say that it's the wrong thing to do. Indeed many politicians have said that it's the wrong thing to do and he can defend himself against that criticism. Whereas you couldn't make the same case against, let's say that Xi Jinping came here. The Chinese state would make sure that there was very little public opposition to that of any kind.

[Ai Weiwei]

When Wen Jiabao visits the Cambridge give a talk, this one Western boy threw a shoe to him if you still remember that incident. Of course that is quite shocking for Chinese. He saw the public official but threw a shoes to, you know, a state leader. It's not start from that boy but a journalist through the show stop Bush when he gave a talk.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah.

[Ai Weiwei]

And that journalist was being put in jail for years, you know that. So let's check on the facts. So I'm a good journalist, I, I try to make myself balanced view. And you know if you check on the British record, there's over 1200 people being put in jail over so called hate speech in just recent study.

[Rory Stewart]

You're sounding like Elon Musk now.

[Alistair Campbell]

Elon Musk, he always complains about hate speech.

[Ai Weiwei]

Well, I don't sound like anybody. I just based on facts, there's 1,200 people in jail because based on the so called hate speech.

[Rory Stewart]

But do you think there is such a thing as hate speech?

[Ai Weiwei]

Well, that's a very big words. I think his speech should be same crime as love speech.

[Alistair Campbell]

Philosophically, what do you make of Donald Trump? Historically, culturally, what do you think of Donald Trump? What does he represent?

[Ai Weiwei]

I think he's truly a phenomenon. Someone being elected, then someone being dumped and somebody being elected again. That we call it democratic practice. Right.

[Alistair Campbell]

And what does he tell us about American culture or world culture?

[Ai Weiwei]

I think it's the best product of our American culture, capitalism come to a clear nude ideology of make a deal, art of deal. So all he concentrated is about deal. It's not no ideology, no philosophy, but let's see what kind of deal comes

[Alistair Campbell]

out and the corruption and the lies.

[Ai Weiwei]

Corruption. I'm not entitled to tell about corruption because I know very little about corruption. But I would say certainly will be huge corruption because you heard his personal gaining of profit. Could be, I don't know the number, it's hard to remember. Three billion or something, but I don't know. You can call it corruption or it's just a political gaining.

[Rory Stewart]

Of all the countries you've lived in, rank them in order of the country that you felt was closest to your sense of what a country should feel like. You've had China, you've had Britain, you've had Germany, you've had Portugal. Is there any one of those countries? Because you said at the start you never really felt at home in China, you never really felt at home in the United States. Where have you felt most?

[Ai Weiwei]

Well, I'm a global, not even citizen. Citizen means you have certain rights to be called a citizen. I'm just, I don't know. A creature which may be most fitting to my ideology would be the moon.

[Rory Stewart]

The moon?

[Ai Weiwei]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

You like Elon Musk again, he doesn't

[Ai Weiwei]

really interest in the moon. He interested in some Mars. He's Mars. I think he should be sending into Mars.

[Rory Stewart]

Okay. One way ticket.

[Ai Weiwei]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

Are you interested in the idea of the scholar gentleman like your father, your grandfather? Do you think this is an important idea for life?

[Ai Weiwei]

I think it is absolutely most important idea for an individual can be proud of is to be an independent thinker and to act on your belief and

[Alistair Campbell]

explain a little bit more about the idea of this Chinese idea for people so they can understand.

[Ai Weiwei]

Chinese idea about scholar rather is not just to help to build your inner strength, but also to serve the mass, to serve the people. So in old time, all the kin and scholars only have one goal. To serve the bigger purpose. You know, can be poet, can be writer, they all write calligraphy. They all have a deep understanding of past. And that always been considered as the highest ritual.

[Rory Stewart]

You said earlier you had a lot of respect for Mao, or there was a lot of respect for Mao. You clearly had respect for Deng Xiaoping. What's your assessment of President Xi?

[Ai Weiwei]

We are about same generation. He's three years older than me. I don't even know him. His father and my father are close friends. And of course we are both punished.

[Rory Stewart]

They're both punished.

[Ai Weiwei]

Yes. His father also punished for a while. But you know, that same revolution being polished, how do they say? Being purged or it's not exactly a bad sin, you know, because it's too many struggles in different moment. I cannot give personal adjustment about him. Yeah, assessment only because I'm not in the same position. I'm as an individual artist. He's taking care of this big state. But from foreign policy, I would agree with him. Not him, but China's national policy. In relate to Middle east, in relate to world peace, in relate to nobody should or interfere other nations business. Not like us, not like Britain.

[Rory Stewart]

But Russia and Ukraine.

[Ai Weiwei]

Russia, Ukraine, Russia and Ukraine. They also kept themselves as a neutral position. They are not really support Russian. They are associated with Russian. Because geopolitics is. If they don't, you know, because us, also because west, you know, NATO with us, there's no such a war. So this is clear.

[Alistair Campbell]

Can I. We're moving back and forth. But I think my final question. I want to bring you back to the idea of the scholar and the gentleman. So thank you. So for example, in the Tang Dynasty, often the officials would leave the imperial court and then they would return back to the countryside. Tell me a little bit about what this means in terms of people's lives, the meaning of their life, their spirituality.

[Ai Weiwei]

Thank you for mentioning those details. Because you are profound scholar. In terms of history, I only can from my experience one during Cultural Revolution. After that, although very end, Chairman Mao had an idea. All the educated university students should go back to factory and farmer farming. They said this is a much bigger world and you can do so many things when you are there at the beginning, people do not really understand. But I do understand. You know, President Xi has been working in the very bottom. I grew up in the very bottom. So I think what teaches the most is not school, but really about society, about people, about Struggle from the bottom.

[Rory Stewart]

My final question, I mentioned in the introduction that you've focused a lot in your work now on the theme of refugees. And as we said, you lived in Germany, and there was a point where Germany took in an awful lot of Syrian refugees. And you said this Europeans should not have the privilege to feel any moral superiority. Asking for gratitude, struggling makes me sick. And I just wondered what. What you think governments should be doing about the extraordinary refugee flows.

[Ai Weiwei]

Yeah, this is very. A question with such a complex level. Now we are dealing something like, let's say it's a cancer. Then in the west, we always think that cancer, we have to cut it off, we have to use all kind of treatment. But with Chinese medicine, we think we have to provide that become a cancer. That's a living style, that's some kind of philosophy. And what you eat, what's your behaving so prevent that is much more important than to just treat it. That's a Chinese medicine's philosophy. I totally agree with refugee situation. We have to look at the history of why so many people have to pull out themselves with their family, you know, their language, their tradition, their religion, come to some place like Germany or Switzerland, which completely very hard to settle. You know, even for me, not as that kind of refugee. Still very hard for me to settle. So we have to have a compassion and to understand they escaped the war and the famine and who caused those war and famine. We have to really question ourselves why we don't help them to stay at their home.

[Rory Stewart]

Thank you very much. Thank you, Vita.

[Alistair Campbell]

Thank you.

[Ai Weiwei]

Thank you.

[Rory Stewart]

Thank you. Well, Rory, I found that very, very interesting.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. Well, what do you. I mean, what did you think of that?

[Rory Stewart]

It was not what I expected because it strikes me that we were getting perilously close to lots of what aboutery. And I don't know, I mean, you know, so he's defined the whole time as dissident, and yet he seemed at pains at almost every stage of the of the conversation to be far more defensive of China at various stages in his history. Now, whether that's age, whether it's the fact that he's just been there, whether it's the fact that he just reconnected with his mother, who I think is in her 90s, she's 93, and she'd met her son, her grandson, but he seemed a lot more romantic about China than I was expecting.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I think there's also the first experience I was being a bit pompous about Solzhenitsyn, but there's this famous moment where Solzhenitsyn gives a speech at Harvard where he attacks the United States. And this is during the Cold War. And everyone goes ballistic because this guy's been celebrated as an anti Soviet destination. Partly, I guess, it's also the personal experience. I mean, it was clearly unbelievably difficult and tough for him living in America in the 80s, early 90s. He must have felt profoundly homesick. He could barely speak English. He's in a completely alien culture. He's right down there on the minimum wage, struggling to get by. And yeah, he returns to China, but I mean, how you weigh it up. And we didn't talk enough about his childhood. But if people want to pick up his autobiography, it's absolutely unbelievable.

[Rory Stewart]

That's the earlier book, not the current, much earlier book.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, but I mean, it's absolutely unbelievable. I mean, essentially he doesn't want to call it a concentration camp, but it's certainly a labor camp, a re education

[Rory Stewart]

camp, I think they actually called it.

[Alistair Campbell]

And it's right in the middle of the desert in one of the most arid, remote places on Earth, and it's basically a military base. And his father, who had been at one point, you know, the most famous poet in China, is stuck with his young son in a tiny little room. They can't heat it. His father is wearing an old jacket that's just kind of burnt to pieces. He's trying to put enough money together for his tobacco. He's outside the dining hall every day he has to watch his father beating a drum and saying, I'm a rightist traitor to the gun. And then every evening his father has to fully prostrate himself and lie down

[Rory Stewart]

and be mocked and pour things on him and mock him. And one of his jobs was to clean the toilets. That's the point he made about.

[Alistair Campbell]

So his father's life was extraordinary because he went from being the son of a relatively prosperous landlord, I mean, what we'd call a kind of country gentleman, to then absolutely nothing. And then AI Weiwei has built himself out of that horror. You made a good analogy with Xi Jinping or in Jack People, jun chang, who's five years older, all these people who went through the 50s and the cultural Revolution. It's almost impossible for anyone to imagine. You go from being wealthy and actually quite privileged in the Communist Party system, smashed right down to the bottom where you are on the edge of being killed and worked to death, and then you rise up again.

[Rory Stewart]

And it was interesting as well. He's. I mean, you Get, I get the sense and I've read, I read that book a while ago that his autobiography. I found his book on censorship a bit strange because I mean, maybe we're being. What about here? But I think it is quite hard to say that you equate our freedom of speech with what the freedom of speech in China.

[Alistair Campbell]

I mean, just to go on the record. I mean the, the situation in China in terms of censorship is 10,000 times worse. My Chinese friends are afraid to speak openly now in any way about the government. If you post the wrong thing on the Internet. It's not like these hate speech things. I mean it's very difficult to get this across to people. Maybe people need to go to China more and spend more time talking Chinese speakers.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, now that we're getting the visa free arrangement.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, to understand the total difference. It is a police state, it's a totalitarian police state.

[Rory Stewart]

Well, I want to go to Hong Kong and think back. I was there at Andover. It's not that long ago, quarter of a century. And Hong Kong is a very, very different place.

[Alistair Campbell]

Right. I was born in Hong Kong.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, I know.

[Alistair Campbell]

And the Chinese Communist Party essentially is like a military organization, runs like a military state. I have friends who've been journalists there for many years. Simply can't get visas to go back in and report. But we don't need to prosecute that on the thing. I mean I think there's a sort of bigger.

[Rory Stewart]

But what's that about?

[Alistair Campbell]

So, but I have many people in Britain who sound like him. I mean that is what a lot of the people who support Jeremy Corbyn's party sound like when I talk to 17, 18 year olds. I mean this what he didn't used

[Rory Stewart]

to sound like that.

[Alistair Campbell]

This what our boundary is not very surprising. Right. You must be used to it from your use people saying how about this?

[Rory Stewart]

No, but he doesn't. And if you go look, and I get it, if you go through the things like he would say the guy who threw a shoe at George W. Bush went to jail for nine months.

[Alistair Campbell]

Which we don't talk about.

[Rory Stewart]

No. All I can remember at the time was George W. Bush laughing it off and talking about his shoe size. So yeah, listen, he's got a point. But I found the. Maybe we were both indulging in a bit of. What about you? I don't know.

[Alistair Campbell]

No, no, I think you did, you did what you needed to do, which was to register that you don't want to take this at face value.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, yeah, okay. But Julian assange I get it's a big cause for. For the left, I get that, but I think I made a fair point there. If that was tuning this Ange in China, leaking thousands of Chinese state secrets, he wouldn't have survived.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. I also think that one of the things this is not getting into it, but I guess his sympathies are quite Corbynista if you hear him about Russia, Ukraine and NATO. It's simply not true that China's not supporting Russia and Ukraine. I mean, all the components for the Russian drones depend on Chinese secondary equipment. The oil revenue flying into Russia comes along lot from China. I mean, Russia would simply not be able to do what it's doing in Ukraine without China. And actually China has made a real choice to back Russia and Ukraine if they hadn't Russia in a really weak position. But I guess the issue with interviewing an artist or a sports person is whether it really makes sense to try to interrogate them as a geopolitical commentator.

[Rory Stewart]

The thing was though, that right from the top, I having described him as an artist and activist, he clearly, I think, sees himself as an activist every bit as much as an artist and

[Alistair Campbell]

presumably he's also irritated with the fact that for 20 years he's been used, he may feel, as an instrument for anti Chinese attacks and he's a bit fed up with it and so he's going to flip it around and enjoy tweaking the tale of the people.

[Rory Stewart]

Can you really flip around the treatment of the Uyghurs in that way?

[Alistair Campbell]

You can't. But I think from his point of view, he's probably may have felt that he's been used for a long time to stick to beat the Chinese government.

[Rory Stewart]

I just wonder whether as he gets older, he's exactly my age, he's 68, he's just been decided his mum. I wonder whether, although he said he's never really felt at home anywhere, whether actually ultimately there is something about, as you get towards the latter stages of your life, you are more drawn to your homeland.

[TurboTax/Intuit Credit Karma Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Rory Stewart]

And I wonder if that's going on

[Alistair Campbell]

and where you come from. I mean, look, I don't want to push this into our own personal lives, but he clearly was not, did not have a comfortable time in the States and he didn't have that comfortable time in Germany. I hesitate to raise the famous issue of Alistair going to Cambridge, but it's quite possible that. But there are experiences that you have in your life which make you think, actually I'm not like these people, I'm something Different. And actually it gives you more desire to defend where you came from.

[Rory Stewart]

I suppose the thing about his son was very sad.

[Alistair Campbell]

Very sad, very sad.

[Rory Stewart]

It's just really sad that he's very sad. I mean, here he's in London, his son's in Cambridge, and they're not so sad.

[Alistair Campbell]

Very, very sad and very difficult for him.

[Rory Stewart]

I didn't really want to push on that, but I found that very sad

[Alistair Campbell]

and very difficult for him. And to be fair to him, there is a wonderful honesty about that. To bring that up. Many of us would have veered away from that.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, listen, he's a fascinating guy and he's his. And the other thing we didn't get into because, I mean, as well as being an artist, he's an extraordinary, prolific documentary maker and some of them are really, really powerful.

[Alistair Campbell]

I also love his frankness. I thought he was incredibly funny about his time in New York. I thought it was a wonderful sort of.

[Rory Stewart]

And I really enjoyed his description of the. I mean, because when we talk about history, Nixon Goes to China is absolutely a moment in history. And I thought he captured that really compelling way.

[Alistair Campbell]

My final one, if I was going to be allowed to be a little bit pretentious, I don't think.

[Rory Stewart]

Go on, Rory.

[Alistair Campbell]

I don't think people have done enough on how old fashioned he is. He's basically deeply nostalgic in some ways towards the pre revolution classical Chinese culture. When he thinks about his grandfather, his description of his grandfather and his. His literiness and pen and paper, pen and paper, no typewriters, all this sort of stuff. So I think he is somebody who's a sort of gentleman scholar. And if he thinks about himself when he says, am I an artist, am I a journalist, am I an activist, I think what he really is is a traditional Chinese gentleman. He's somebody who wants to be able to be utterly independent, retain an interest in public service and do art. But the art is not the purpose of his life. It's part of a bigger package.

[Rory Stewart]

Absolutely. Well, very good. I hope our listeners and viewers enjoy that.

[Alistair Campbell]

Thank you. Bye bye.

[Ai Weiwei]

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[Alistair Campbell]

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[Alistair Campbell]

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