184. President of Ukraine: Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Politics: Leading – Ep. 184 President of Ukraine: Volodymyr Zelenskyy
April 9, 2026 | Host: Alastair Campbell | Guest: President Volodymyr Zelenskyy

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Episode Overview

In this deeply reflective and timely episode, Alastair Campbell interviews President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine. The conversation delves into Zelenskyy’s personal and political journey—from his formative family experiences and early career in comedy, through to the grave realities of wartime leadership. Zelenskyy opens up about the existential threat facing Ukraine, the psychology and strategy of Vladimir Putin, frustrations with Western allies, the philosophy of Ukrainian resistance, and the emotional toll of warfare on himself and his people. Throughout, the tone is candid, resilient, and unflinchingly human.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Influences and Family History

• Roots in Suffering and Survival: Zelenskyy recounts the trauma and resilience in his lineage—his great-grandparents among over a million Ukrainian Jews killed during Nazi occupation, and his grandfather (a Soviet soldier) losing three brothers in WWII ([05:33]).
  • “People who experience the war… focus only on very important things.” – Zelenskyy ([05:33])
  • Family, education and friends all shaped his values and worldview.
• Parental Perspective: Both parents are still alive; his mother is sensitive and deeply worried for him, while his father is a supportive scientist ([06:47]).

2. From Comedy to Presidency

• Opposition to Politics in Family: Zelenskyy describes growing up in a family of scientists—apolitical, almost “anti-establishment” ([08:00]).
  • “Scientists are… almost anti-political, anti-establishment, anti-parties.” – Zelenskyy ([08:02])
• Choosing Law, Loving Comedy: Initially aspired to study diplomacy but family finances led him to law. Math was his father’s domain, prompting him to seek his own path ([10:05]).
• Entertainment Entrepreneur: Ran one of Ukraine’s largest production companies, loved the creative process, and valued producers who saw projects through ([11:44]).
• Partner in Life and Comedy: Met his wife, Olena, as a scriptwriter—humor was their shared language. He emphasizes humor’s importance, especially in coping with extreme stress ([13:19]).
  • “If you are too serious with everything… you will become crazy.” – Zelenskyy ([13:19])

3. On the Eve of Invasion and Wartime Leadership

• Pre-2022 Context: Even as tensions rose, he could not imagine the scale of Russia’s invasion would become reality ([15:15]).
• Refusing to Flee—“I Need Ammunition, Not a Ride”: Describes the psychological pressure in the war’s first days, his decision not to leave Kyiv, and the importance of staying to unite Ukraine ([16:26]).
  • “I made a decision. It was not emotional… I understood what Russians wanted and what I had to do like President of the country.” – Zelenskyy ([18:57])
• Handling Fear and Stress: Focuses on solutions and steps, pushes aside paralyzing emotions to act ([16:26]).

4. Betrayal and the Failure of Security Guarantees

• Broken Promises of Budapest Memo: Zelenskyy feels Ukraine was let down by security guarantees in exchange for giving up nuclear arms ([19:16]).
  • “What we’ve got, we’ve got nothing. So it’s not fair game. And it’s a big mistake.” – Zelenskyy ([20:35])
• Lesson for the World: The only reliable security guarantee for Ukraine is the Ukrainian people themselves ([19:40]).

5. Understanding Vladimir Putin & Russian Motives

• Engagement with Putin: Initially sought negotiation, recognizing the need for stability and economic growth, but saw that Minsk and “Normandy format” talks were a facade ([22:18]).
• Putin’s Current Aims: Argues Putin now understands he cannot fully occupy Ukraine and is seeking a way to claim partial victory, likely through a forced diplomatic “pause” in Donbas. But any such truce would simply be a regrouping period, not lasting peace ([25:55]).
  • “Ceasefire. It may not be an end, but a pause before the next assault.” – summarized by Campbell ([03:12])
  • “He needs pause… for training, for increasing production, for blocking us economically, for lifting sanctions.” – Zelenskyy ([27:04])

6. Frustrations with Western Allies and U.S. Politics

• Calls Out U.S. Duplicity: Voices concern that some American policymakers (and figures like Trump, Wyckoff, Kushner) naively trust Putin, suggesting they are pushing Zelenskyy to leave Donbas—something he insists is impossible politically and militarily ([29:07]).
  • “They trust Putin. That is the biggest problem—we don’t trust Putin, and I think they trust him.” – Zelenskyy ([29:35])
• Unified Security Vision: Highlights need for a new European security union (EU, UK, Ukraine, Turkey, Norway), suggesting this coalition could be stronger than Russia’s military ([37:57]).
  • “Without Ukraine and Turkey, Europe will not have similar army that Russia has.” – Zelenskyy ([39:27])

7. Ukraine’s Place in the West—EU, NATO, and Reform

• Striving for EU Membership: Acknowledges ongoing concerns about corruption and reform. Argues reforms are necessary “for ourselves”, but above all, security must come first ([40:35]).
  • “We can do as much as possible… But security is number one and only in unity.” – Zelenskyy ([42:37])
• On NATO’s Future: Expresses worry over possibility of U.S. withdrawal from NATO, advocates for stronger European defense integration ([37:41]).

8. Building New Partnerships, Focus on Middle East

• Outreach to the Middle East: Discusses recent visits to the Gulf and Syria as part of a strategy to create long-term alliances and co-defensive partnerships—particularly around air defense technology ([44:43]).
• Resource Diversion Due to Iran Crisis: Concerned that U.S. focus on the Middle East (war in Iran) is draining weapons and attention from Ukraine’s struggle ([46:07]).

9. The Emotional Toll and Leadership Philosophy

• Personal Grief and Responsibility: Highlights the necessity of personally presenting medals to families of the fallen; insists on feeling the pain, refusing numbness ([49:41]).
  • “You can’t control this pain and you can’t forget it… the president has to feel it… has to look into the eyes of these people who gave their relatives.” – Zelenskyy ([50:16])
• On Resilience and Humanity: Acknowledges "all in distress," especially for children whose innocence has been lost. But insists on holding onto the feelings and fullness of life, refusing to “become robots.” ([51:22], [52:13])
  • “We pay big price for this… but don’t forget that we are people. We are not robots.” – Zelenskyy ([52:13])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you are too serious with everything… you will become crazy.” – Zelenskyy on humor in leadership ([13:19])
• “We live only for this reason — because somebody gave his own life for this.” – Zelenskyy on sacrifice ([51:00])
• “It was not emotional… I understood what Russians wanted and what I had to do like President of the country.” ([18:57])
• “I think that the best producer finds a way how to choose the great idea or to create it by himself or by herself.” ([12:02])
• “I said very openly to our American friends… if you want to try to negotiate… you need to organize and to push Putin to trilateral meeting… He doesn’t want. This is the answer.” ([32:43])
• “We are people with pluses and minuses. Thank you so much.” – Zelenskyy’s closing words ([52:41])

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Key Timestamps

• [05:33] Zelenskyy’s family history and its influence
• [08:00] Discussion of his apolitical upbringing
• [11:44] Shift from law to entertainment, entrepreneurship
• [13:19] The necessity of humor in crisis
• [15:15] Reflections on the build-up to war
• [16:26] Decision not to flee Kyiv—leadership under pressure
• [19:16] On Ukraine’s betrayed security guarantees
• [22:18] First direct dealings with Putin
• [25:55] Putin’s current strategy and Ukraine’s battlefield reality
• [29:07] Frustration with U.S. diplomatic pressure
• [37:57] Vision for a new European security pact
• [44:43] Strategic outreach to Middle Eastern nations
• [49:41] The cost of war—meeting the families of the fallen
• [52:13] Final reflection on maintaining humanity in leadership

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Tone & Language

Zelenskyy is forthright, sometimes blunt, but deeply humane. His words convey both the burdens and the dignity of leadership under siege—marked by resilience, sadness, defiance, and humor. The conversation is honest, nuanced, and emotionally charged, offering both geopolitical insights and an intimate look at a leader under extraordinary pressure.

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This summary captures the episode’s rich details and emotional weight, guiding listeners through Zelenskyy’s perspective on leadership, war, politics, and the enduring spirit of Ukraine.

Transcript

[Alastair Campbell]

Thanks for listening to the Rest is Politics. Sign up to the Rest is Politics plus to enjoy ad free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets, just go to therestispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

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[Alastair Campbell]

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[Alastair Campbell]

Hello and welcome to the Rest Is Politics. Leading with me, Alastair Campbell. Sadly not with Rory today. He's on holiday with his family. Without access to the Internet and with the guests that we have today, there just wasn't really any point of holding on and trying to reschedule. And Rory is very is perfectly happy with that because today I really privileged to be speaking to a man who has become one of the defining figures of our time. His face and voice are known the world over is Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the President of Ukraine. And this is an interview that I enjoyed so much and I'm confident that you will too. This is a war leader who is steering his country through an existential crisis and who I believe, and have long believed is an exceptional political figure and an exceptional human being. His is not a conventional political story. He trained in law, but then built his life in comedy and entertainment. He was writing, producing, performing, ultimately building up one of the biggest production companies in Ukraine alongside his wife Alina. And then in 2019, after lots of rumors that he might, the man who played a comedy president as an actor became the actual president, a political novice who won the general election in Ukraine, taking 73% of the vote against Petro Poroshenko. But that is not why he matters today, as I'm sure you all know. He matters because when Vladimir Putin launched a full scale Invasion of Ukraine, expecting a swift collapse, Kyiv to be taken, and a compliant replacement to Zelenskyy put in place. Zelenskyy didn't run. He stayed. He led, and he has fought ever since. And in doing so, he has, in many ways, redefined what leadership looks like. And in moments of real, genuine crisis, of course. In the interview, we talk a lot about Vladimir Putin. His mindset, his strategy, Crucially, what Zelenskyy sees as his weaknesses in a war he is convinced Russia cannot win. Zelenskyy is very blunt. He thinks that heavy losses, poorly trained troops, and a dangerous pivot towards diplomacy. This is not as a path to peace, but as a tactic for Putin to regroup at a time on the front line. Ukraine is doing, by all accounts, pretty well. And a ceasefire, he warns, much as the world may want. It may not be an end, but a pause before the next assault, particularly in the Donbass region that Putin's determined to take and that Trump and Wyckoff and Kushner seem to think he should have. And Zelenskyy is blunt about this, too, that if he succeeds there, he will not stop. He doesn't hold back on his feelings about some of the international response, has to be diplomatic most of the time. But there is frustration here, especially with parts of the United States political establishment. Pretty dramatically, I think he sets out a vision for European security that is bold. A new kind of alliance with the European Union, bringing in together the uk Ukraine, Turkey, and Norway that he says is a force that would easily beat the Russian army. He talks about the necessity of humor as a critical survival mechanism. And please do listen to the very end where he gives a sad, very moving account of his unbearable duty in meeting families of the fallen, handing out medals to parents, to children, and insisting that he must never, ever become detached from the consequences of the decisions that he makes. So, as well as being politically important, I think this interview is genuinely very, very moving. So, with that in mind, please enjoy our interview with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Okay, so, President Zelenskyy, thank you so much for talking to me. And we'll get into what's happening today. But first, I want to go back in time to your great grandparents, who were among more than a million Ukrainian Jews killed during the Nazi occupation, to your grandfather, who joined the Soviet army in 1942, his three brothers, who all perished. And I wonder what impact these stories had on you growing up as you learned your family's history.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

I think all the roots and all the stories of Families have some important influence on your life and it's understandable. And of course I think that the people who experience the war, they are focusing only on very important things. So of course the time, what I had with my grandfather, of course had influence. Yes, because you speak about ordinary things, but basing on the, on your experience of your life. And yes, it has some influence, but I think that family, education and, and also friends, school, a lot of things which are very important. Education is, you know, one of the very important things which has influen on. On you. On your view and on your values and how you see and how you feel the world and your attitude to, to everything.

[Alastair Campbell]

Tell me about your, Your own parents. They're happily, they're still alive, but it, it can't be easy for them at the moment, seeing the life that you have to lead and the relentless pressure that you're under.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

No, I, I think my, my mother, of course, is difficult for her to, to understand, to, to hear, to feel very much. She's very sensitive. She knows me very well. That's why when she see me, for example, on TV or somewhere, and she understands when I'm tired or not, if I'm okay or I have some questions and, or problems. And of course, all these challenges. Yes, for her maybe it's more difficult even for me. Yes. And for my father, no, he's very supportive, he understands very well. If with my mother, we have communication, almost each day she calls me. Yeah, I'm so sorry I have to call, but sometimes I'm too busy. I'm busy, I forget. Yeah, so. But she, she never forgot. She has to call me. I don't know if I am not answering, by the way, I have a problem. It means that I will have 10, 20 phone calls from him. So that's why it's better to answer the first.

[Alastair Campbell]

And when you, when you were growing up, would they ever have thought that you would end up becoming a politician?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

No. No, no.

[Alastair Campbell]

Why not?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Because my family is, you know, like the family of, of scientists. Because my father is a scientist and scientists are almost the anti political, anti establishment, anti parties. They never recognize politicians and. Etc. So that's why immediately. Of course not. So the politics is not very important topic in my family. So it was more about. Yes, of course we discussed with my father and mother, we discussed what's going on in the world, but not from the point of politics. From the point of, you know, challenges and from the point of security and economy and etc. So. But, but no, no politics okay.

[Alastair Campbell]

And you, you did a law degree, but because comedy was really your thing, you then get into this KVN comedy competition. Were you always very, very funny as a child? Were you funny? Yes.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

And we, we have good sense of humor. In my family, I always had my father, he loved to joke. Yes. And, and a lot of such things. We, we love to, to read such books and funny stories and comedies, just to have fun with family and etc. So we are, we are not, we're not crumpy, not grumpy.

[Alastair Campbell]

You're a grumpy old man.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

So it's normal for us then I had, I studied in judicial university, I studied law because, I mean this profession was very popular at this very moment when I, when I studied and when I graduated school. And so that's why, that's why, because my father, he's a scientist, he's about cybernetic math. It's all about it. So I started first math with him.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

But what I understood that he's, he's clever than me in this, in mass. And I said to him, look, I don't want to be the second. That's why I don't want that you always look at me that in math you, you know more than me and you will know and understand more when even in 10 and 20 years. I don't, I don't want this feeling because, because I knew, by the way, I knew math very well, but not such well as my father, because he is a professor and this is his life. And then that's why I said, no, you do.

[Alastair Campbell]

So you do your own thing, something different.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Yes. And I wanted to go to study in some, some diplomacy in the university, in the capital. But it was, I mean, impossible because it was very. We. We didn't have enough for this budget because you need some money for this to live somewhere and. Etc. So I'm from another city, not. And from the capital. That's why it was difficult and. But the most understandable was to study in the university, to study the law and to go to this profession.

[Alastair Campbell]

And very everybody in the world pretty much now knows that you played a teacher who became president, but you were very much more than a comedian. You were a kind of entertainment entrepreneur. You, at one point you were a TV executive, you were inventing different formats and so forth. And did you imagine that was going to be your life forever? Or did you, was there always a part of you thinking maybe politics?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

First of all, I loved my profession, what I have before the politics. I was the owner or one of the owners of a big production company, maybe one of the biggest. And of course I loved this profession. It was about creative things. I was the CEO of this company, not only one of the owners, I was the CEO of the company. And then I loved TV and movie from the point of producing, from the point of marketing and ideas. So I loved to create the ideas. It was like a business idea. And to did it from the very beginning to the end. It's like the. You know that there are positive producers and negative, I think positive producers who create the idea and then make the product. Negative producers, they only can find some money at the end of the process, during the editing, they will say it's not good, it's something bad and etc. So I don't very respect such people because I think that the best producer find a way how to choose the great idea or to create it by himself or by herself.

[Alastair Campbell]

And. And you also, you met your wife Alina in that period. She was a comedy writer. And I'm just wondering, before we get on to the really serious stuff, everything in your life right now must feel incredibly serious and stressful. Do you. Are you still able to. To have a good time with her and to have a laugh and actually just to joke about things? Or do you just feel weighed down by the pressure of what you're doing?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

By the way, my wife, before she became my wife, she was a scriptwriter. And I also love this profession. And I also was a scriptwriter some years, but now I don't have time. Of course, now I'm the president of the country which is in war. I'm focusing on one thing, on Ukraine and this is my priority. If you are focusing on trying to manage different things, you will not be successful in one. So that's why I can understand what is the most important for today for me and for Ukraine. I work for Ukraine, on Ukraine, but do sometimes not to forget that you can't be very serious with everything. Otherwise you will. You will become crazy. Because yeah, it's just. Just about crazy people who. Who don't have sense of humor. It's crazy people is. By the way, it's not only my opinion. I know a lot of soldiers, officers and doctors who are managing and save lives, but you can't be very serious each moment. Yes, you have to be professional and be very serious with your profession. But there are some things on which you can't look very seriously, otherwise you will shift your focus from really serious things.

[Alastair Campbell]

Now 2018, you announced that you're running for office. 2019, you win a runoff against Poroshenko with 73%. And at that point, Vladimir Putin has already annexed Crimea. He's begun his campaign. Did you feel at the time that he might one day go for a full invasion? And did you discuss with your friends and your family what that might mean for you, the prospect of being the war leader that you've now become? Or did you think it would never happen?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

And of course I, of course I couldn't estimate about full scale war. It's unbelievably how it can be so, but really it was very bad surprise when they occupied Crimea. You have borders with Russia, you have long history, a part of USSR history and etc. And of course you can't even imagine that will be someday. It will be the aggression and it will be a full scale war and not only temporary occupation. The really goal of Russians to occupy all your continent to destroy Ukraine. I didn't know about it, of course.

[Alastair Campbell]

And also famously when the invasion happened, you said to President Biden and President Erdogan, I don't need a ride, I need ammunition. That's the moment where I think people sense you were a leader of just exceptional leadership and courage. But was there a moment when you felt real personal fear at the scale of what you were about to be confronted with?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

I mean, I'm a live person. We have all this emotions, what all the people have. Of course, when you hear about, about children, about your country, about your family, it's very understandable. But for me the most important is to push away any kind of emotions and to focus on, on the steps that what I can do, and I could do it before this profession. Yes. In the difficult moments, I can put myself together so that I, I had to do it. And that's why I saw a lot of people around who've been in a big stress and some chaos and etc. But, but I think that I could manage what to do. And of course I had phone calls, you know, each five, ten minutes during the first days of the war. Yes, it was, I mean, very difficult. And I had phone calls from all the, from the generals of my country, just the government which being in the western part, I, I pushed moved it to the western part of Ukraine because I saw that if we will be occupied totally, we need to manage how to manage the country. And that's why I decided I made some steps with banking system. I can't share with you where I moved them, but I moved them. Yes. And also I Moved the government. I had not big team in Kiev. We had to stay here. So and of course leaders came to me that they said that in such. And not only them also security and etc. And they all my. I mean this own security. They all said that in such circumstances we need to move you to some security places somewhere. And leaders of of the world, including United States they wanted to move. Move me somewhere to other country and to help me with this and. And just to save me because they knew that Putin wants that at this moment. It was understandable that the Russians wanted to occupy Kiev and of course they wanted to. To do something with me. Now it's understandable. Now it's not so difficult to look back and to understand what is the idea how to occupy it. And of course the destabilization with the people when they don't have the leader, when they don't have the president and you can't join everybody. I made a decision without. No, it was not something emotional etc. So again, God bless the education helped me. I. I understand what to do and I understood what Russians wanted and I. And I knew what I had to do like the president of the country.

[Alastair Campbell]

And if I can go back to 1994 and the Budapest agreement where United States, the United Kingdom and Russia agreed that if Ukraine gave its nuclear weapons to Russia, you'd get guarantees of sovereignty and border security. That kind of went with Crimea, but it was now with the invasion it was utterly shattered. Did your country feel betrayed at that point?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

For today, looking what's going on in the world, not only in Ukraine, in the Middle east, you understand that the biggest and the strongest security guarantees it's you, your country, your people. When you want to exchange something, you can't exchange some military equipment. Doesn't matter by the way nuclear in this case in your example. Or are they. I don't know, air defense and etc. Or jets. Yes, sky fleet, air fleet and etc. It doesn't mean. It meant that you. You have to exchange this on similar things. For example, it's very expensive to hold these jets or the whole big army. You exchange it to the place in NATO that this NATO fleet will defend you in a very dangerous moment if somebody will come to occupy you or something like this. The same with nuclear weapon. If you decided to change nuclear weapon, the price had to be fair. And I think the NATO is the smallest price. Smallest. What Ukraine what the leaders of Ukraine and Ministry of Defense, the president, government, the parliament, what they had to to get instead of Nuclear weapon. What we've got, we've got nothing. So it's not fair game. And it's a big mistake in any way. By the way, it's not only Ukrainian mistake. I don't want, you know, to push only these signals to our past. And they said it's also about other security guarantors who are in this Budapest memo. And it's nuclear countries. If they said that you will not have nuclear weapon, they have to give you umbrella of security, maybe nuclear umbrella. Because how you are nuclear countries and other things. And that's why it was lies. Of course it was lies. Without they've got our nuclear weapon. They moved it by the way to. To mostly to Russia. So not only this I know how strategic aviation was destroyed of Ukraine totally the biggest jets strategic aviation. So they are very strong by the way such strategic jets Russia used against us during these full scale war. So a lot of different mistakes.

[Alastair Campbell]

You did have direct dealings with with Vladimir Putin. First by phone, then you had face to face talks with him during the so called Normandy talks when they resumed. I understand why how you see him today? How did you see him then?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

I tried to find a way of negotiations. What I wondered just when I became the president, the young president who understood that we have to finish with this because we. We need to increase economy GDP for Ukraine and to do this we need investment, we need free economy, we need the way to EU and and etc. Something what will open for the. For US markets and of course Russia's influence. The fact that they temporary occupied us some territories of course, course. And they also blocked for us some markets. It was understandable that we need to find a way of stabilizing the situation. That's why we needed to make some format of negotiations. Because when I came we had already Minsk agreement. We had the table for meetings and technical groups and etc. And we had thousands, no, maybe not thousands but. But hundreds of such tactical meetings before me and then after. And I wanted to speak with. With him and we. I wanted very much to end this Minsk agreement because for me it was like, you know, it's such format of destabilizing. Not full scale war, but not peacetime. And this is a signal to all the investors. So you can't develop your country.

[Alastair Campbell]

And what's your sense of him today and his psychology and what you actually think he's trying to achieve right now?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

I understand 100% what he wants today. I think he made historical mistake with a full scale war. War and of course occupation Was also his mistake. But it was, you know, the moment of the life when you can find at least try to find some diplomatic way to de escalate. And he moved to this operation which is really became the war. Moved to operation, he said about three, four days. But we know what was at the end. So this is a full scale war. And he really thought, his estimation was that he can occupy us, that leaders will take me out or Russians will kill me, it doesn't matter. I mean, this how to move me out from the capital. Yes. And they understood that Ukrainian people will not join and they will move to the parliament because they had in parliament their party which was financed by Russia. And the party was the second, by the way. It was big party. They had the plan of operation, of strategy.

[Alastair Campbell]

Our security service produced a report this week that said on the front line, you're doing better than you have for almost a year. And yet the language is all about, you know, he's still going and he keeps going. So what do you think he is trying to achieve now?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

I think for today he understand that he can't occupy us totally. He recognized it for himself and for partners. I'm sure sometimes it's different you, sometimes he shares with partners, not the things what he's thinking about. Really. Yes, but he recognizes that he can't occupy us. Now, the second point, it's understandable that he has so many losses for today and on the front. He doesn't have well trained people, enough number of well trained soldiers and officers to destroy us. And he needs time for this. And I think that his goal is to find a way out with a victory. That's why he's trying to withdraw us from Donbas by diplomacy, by the way, by the Americans dialect with us that we have by ourselves withdraw from Donbas. Because for him it's losses hundreds of thousands. By the way, we see that he can occupy Donbass in some years if he will be able. I mean, not he can or not if he will be able to do it. He needs more people, more money. And losses will be from 300,000 to 1 million. It depends how many years he will need additional losses. So this is big price even for Putin. And that's why he wants to find such way of, of ending the war. But for him, that will be the pause in the way if we will withdraw from ourselves, by ourselves from Donbass. Of course he understands that our people, our country will be divided because to withdraw by ourselves, you know, partially people will be against it. Of course, he understand that our unity can be divided and he will look if. If the unity and society will be divided, he will continue very quickly to make some. Something like blitzkrieg and something like this to occupy us. If not, he will need pause. Pause for well trained people for him for training missions, for increasing the production and for blocking us economically lifting sanctions from his energy sector and etc. Find a way to deal with Europe because ceasefire or something like this can help him also. So it's not only our wish.

[Alastair Campbell]

So you said there that he's doing it through the Americans and diplomacy. But surely do the Americans not understand that for you to give up Danet's parts of Donbass is impossible because of the soldiers you lost. It's impossible for the people who live there. It's impossible because of the referendum that you would have to have, which you would lose if you put it there. And it would probably cause some kind of civil war, which presumably he would quite enjoy. So why are the Americans even pushing in that direction when it's. They both understand it's literally impossible for you?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Because I'm sure that they had a lot of different conversations with Putin and his team. And it's a pity, but we have to recognize that partially Americans are feeling that it's nothing for us. It's not such big price for the peace to go out from our territories. And they don't want to recognize that Putin will lie them and that he can continue the occupation even after such steps that they are sure. Americans are sure that if we will withdraw, Putin will Putin, that they can trust Putin. I think that is the biggest problem, that we don't trust Putin. And I think that they trust him.

[Alastair Campbell]

But even the American people, if you look at opinion, I saw an opinion poll two weeks ago, you were the most popular world leader in the United States and Putin was second bottom only to Kim Jong Un. So the people don't trust him. Why do Wyckoff and Kushner and Trump trust somebody who's shown himself to be so untrustworthy?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Too much time together. First, the second point that really they made, I think in Alaska, some negotiations, they spoke about it and I think that Putin was very open for him. It was great success that Americans involved him and invited him. But American people are on our side and this is great. This is what helps us a lot. And this is big support. When I had meeting with negation group in Berlin firstly and I began to speak with them not on the groups, to groups, our negotiation group. I wanted to speak with Them to understand them. And I think that they understood me that not everything's as simple. Yes. And they can trust Putin. And they told me that really it was very, very important, very useful. We began to speak to each other before I didn't have such possibility because Vitkov went only to Moscow and I didn't have communications with, with him. But sometimes our partner saying that one element and it will bring them quick, successful victory. Like ceasefire. Yeah, but you know, we need ceasefire for, for the long period of time, not just for the week, for the week of celebration and then again continuation of this tragedy that. But I know what Putin's want and he knows that I understands him. And he knows also that I understand that they are not so strong at the battlefield. And I think that he knows that only me understand. And that's why they share with, with Americans a lot of, you know, I mean, this no truth, yeah, blah, blah, and etc. So this is where we are. And I said very openly to our American friends, I'm thankful that they really want, they really want to end this war. It's true. And I said to them, look, if you want to try to negotiate any kind of these territorial challenges, you need to organize and to push Putin to trilateral meeting on the level of leaders he doesn't want, because this is the answer. I said, I will give you some examples where you will find the answer if he really wants to end the war or not. First, try to organize meeting on the level of leaders, speak about territories he didn't want. First. Second, if he doesn't want after ceasefire to occupy us, propose him to put American soldiers with Europeans on the contact line. He said to them, no, any kind of soldiers. So it means that he will go forward. So he wants to go forward. The third point, he has about 20, I don't know, 17, 18 or 20 million millions of square kilometers his territory of Russia. And when he speaks with Americans, he said, look, what is the problem? It's about 6,000 square kilometers. So can you imagine really that the person which has dozens of millions of square kilometers and 70% of these square kilometers are without life, any infrastructure. Do we really trust that he needs 5.8 thousand square kilometers, that this is the goal now? This is not the goal. The goal is other things. It's like strategic place. So yes, it's true. It's not only geopolitical. From the format of the war, he will have these industrial cities, and after these industrial cities, where we have fortification, defending lines to the field, open field, and Straight roads to our regional capitals like dnipro, Kharkiv and etc. So it's, I mean this, it's understandable for what he wants.

[Alastair Campbell]

It is very hard watching living in the UK as I do and doing this podcast every week and covering, talking about Ukraine a lot. It's very hard not to think that the Trump administration is basically on his side. We saw the meeting where JD Vance started an ambush with you. He criticizes you, he blames you. Putin is a dictator. He's broken international law. He started the war and yet he never criticized him. And as we speak, you and I are speaking now at a time when JD Vance is on the way to Hungary to interfere directly in an election in support of Viktor Orban, who's done more than any other European leader to undermine you support Putin. So do you just have to suck that up and grin and bear it because you still need the Americans and how hard is that?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

It's difficult. I mean, sometimes you can't feel what's going on here in Europe the same that in Europe we can't feel everything what's going on, for example, in the Middle East. And I'm not sure that now JD, with all respect and etc. But I'm not even. He's coming to Budapest. I'm not, I'm not sure that it's helpful, you know, between us. Between us. Yes. Maybe they are friends.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yes. We have.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Yeah.

[Alastair Campbell]

Many billions of listeners between all of us.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

No, I'm. I mean that this is the situation in Europe.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

That I always all my message been about the unity between Europe and the United States because I think that it doesn't matter. It's NATO or on another name the question is the most strong union in the world security union. It's Europe and the United States with all respect to other countries and continents. And today we see dividing of this. This is not good. So for today, United States support for Hungarians. I'm not sure that it's support. Yes. I'm not, I'm not on the side of this guy from Hungary. It's understandable why. But I don't want to be involved today Lexus people by themselves they will decide. That's why I said that I'm not sure that today the team of the United States they really understand all the details what Russia wants. I had the document for example Russians shared with Iranian regime energy objects and also military, but mostly energy objects on the territory of Middle east countries and the Gulf and also Israel and also a lot of different countries, so they shared with them. They used satellites, made images they shared with Iranians and also American bases are there. And I shared this information, even publicly I shared. But did we hear the reaction of the United States to Russia, that they have to stop it? And that's why I think this, this is the problem that they trust Putin and it's a pity, it's a pity.

[Alastair Campbell]

But you've mentioned NATO a couple of times and Trump is currently saying that he thinks NATO is a bit of a busted flush. Europe is very good with the words of support, but is that being matched by reality? And can they fill a gap that the Americans might leave in your defenses?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

This is a difficult question. As I said a little bit earlier, that I really think that the union between the United States and Europe is very important. Important. And if United States really thinks about how to withdraw from the NATO, what we hear from officials, even officials publicly, that they think about it all the security in Europe will based only on eu. So we want, for example, you will understand me, we want to be a part of eu and we will be, I'm sure. But I think that for today EU is in such situation when they need some countries, uk, Ukraine, Turkey, Norway, there are different questions to each of these countries according to the laws, internal questions and etc. But there are four strong countries which are part of Europe and these countries between us, Ukraine and Turkey, this is the army which will be stronger than the army of Russia. That is the answer. Without Ukraine and Turkey, Europe will not have similar army that Russia has. With Ukraine, Turkey, Norway and UK you will control security on the seas, not 1C. This is the answer and that's why these four countries EU also has to find a way, friendship, strategic partner way, how to involve these four countries and be the strongest union of economy and security. It's not about offensive. No, no, no. I'm speaking about defending only defending security in dc, security in the sky and the biggest land forces.

[Alastair Campbell]

I was in Kiev for the fourth anniversary and that's when I I saw you there at the ceremony in the Maidan and I was with the enlargement commissioner, Marta Koss for the fourth anniversary and I went to quite a lot of meetings. We kept hearing that, yes, got to get into the European Union, but several things we heard first was there is still a worry about corruption, there is still a worry about the pace of reform, but also from your side, a worry about whether France and Germany in particular want any enlargement of the European Union at the moment. What's your sense of all that we

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

have to do our reforms not only for EU or somebody, we need it for ourselves. We can do as much as possible. We can't do more during the war. We do a lot. I think we do more than we can. I think that we need to survive. Yesterday I was in Syria and I'm so happy that they have life. I saw a lot of children and they saw our flags, Ukrainian flags, and they implode, by the way. So this is their attitude and they understand that they are very. They are strong and etc. But now the economy is not so strong. Yes, of course, they on the way, they are on the way. But when the war began in Ukraine, it's understandable that Russia moved all their forces from Africa, from Syria, from a lot of different countries. They moved to Ukraine and Ukraine killed all their Wagner Group and etc. And they understand that they are strong. But Ukraine made them a lot. I think so, yes. And we see that. What does it mean when Russia, when the Russians and Iranians, they destroyed a lot of things in Syria, they need years and years to, you know, to renovate everything. And we will need years. And now Europe doesn't feel it. God bless. Will not. What does it mean? What is it? First, I think with reforms, it's very important, with different laws, it's very important. We will make decision. But security is number one and only in unity. Because when Russia has the decision to have 2 million army for these years and before 2030 to have army 2.5 million, Europe has to think first of all about security and how to hold the life which they like, the level of this life, how to hold this and how to save their history and their independence. They all have to think about it, focusing what we spoke earlier in such difficult moment, you have to focus on. On one thing very important to make everything with your security. Russia has to be afraid of the unity of these countries. When you will do this, all the people in your continent, they will be happy and then make other steps. And I think when you want to find a way about Ukraine's place in EU or what to do with, for example, uk, they've been in eu, then they are not in eu. And again with Turkey, they're afraid because a lot of, I don't know, vegetables or big agricultural car, it's understandable about markets. But you will manage all this. Yeah, you will manage. If you have great economy, you have to save your country and then economy, first of all, security, second is economy, not opposite.

[Alastair Campbell]

And you mentioned, and we've run over time. I know, but can I just ask you about. You mentioned that you'd been in the Middle east and I thought that was a really interesting strategic move. You've been to the Gulf, as you say you're in Syria yesterday. You have a lot of contact with that region. Now can we read into that a set of new partnerships that you think are going to help you in the war? Is this about you giving them the technology that they need to fight Iranian drones since the war in Iran? Or is there something longer term that you can plan that actually helps you longer term for Ukraine's forward strategy?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

In our strategy, it's long term relationship how not only defend and destroy Iranian drones. It's not about Iranians or Russians, doesn't matter. It's about system. What we have. The system is security in the sky and also how to save energy, how to think about infrastructure, how to save it, water supplies and etc. How to build fortifications. It's not simple things, it's all in the system. They understood Middle East I was there some years ago. I wanted very much to find a way how to go together. We needed very much anti ballistic and we needed money. We didn't have enough fundings for ourselves. And I tried, but only when war came to you, to your country, you are ready to make progress. And that's why and I think all our experience about the systems which we will provide co production and this system to Middle east countries, we will be able to do this and to do this together they will be ready also to be very open.

[Alastair Campbell]

Are you worried that the war in Iran is not just taking attention away from Ukraine, but taking defenses away from Ukraine as well?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Of course, of course the focus is on. On the Middle east now of the United States then it means that in any way for the United States for today it's priority and of course it can take. If. If the war will be long, I don't know, God bless, they will make some ceasefire steps and etc. I don't know. But I know one thing, that long war, it's using a lot of different weapons. What we need anti ballistic missiles, Patriot missiles, what we need very much. And of course they can move it to the Middle east and we will have deficit. Even before this war we had deficit with these components. But with the war of course, yes. So this is the problem then they lifted sanctions from. From energy sector, partially from Russian energy sector. And if Russia had big deficit about 100 billions for 2026, it was our estimation for now they have now additional money they have each day because the sanctions been lifted from Russian oil. So this is also the problem. Yes, but what the system, what we proposed and they understood Middle east countries, they're very happy with what we shared with them, our experience, how to help their people, civilians of course, to defend. I think this is what we need to do now in our union, in Europe to do. Not to wait, not to wait when it will be late. Why I don't trust them that they will just stop the war in Ukraine. They really can stop. Stop this war in Ukraine. But it doesn't mean that they will stop because they. They can go on other direction where the situation will be more simple for them. Most small countries not well prepared for the war. It's understandable. Why? Because they didn't have occupation. So that's why they can move there. Because it's very difficult when you increased the production, when a lot of your business partners are around military sector in Russia, when they make today a lot of money. That's why it's very difficult to stop such, you know, machine. So that's why you need to go somewhere to do something, not to decrease all these productions and military productions and etc. So a lot of different business, Russian business, make money on this war now.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, for sure. Well, listen, it's been fantastic to talk to you. My dream for the world is that Ukraine, the UK and Canada all enter the European Union on the same day. But maybe you could add that one.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

You're happy with Canada?

[Alastair Campbell]

Absolutely.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Canada is great partner.

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah, for sure.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Mark is great Prime Minister. Really?

[Alastair Campbell]

Yeah. If I can just ask one final question. I was deeply moved at the Maidan by the flags and the pictures of all the fallen shoulders that went on and on and on. When you're the leader in a war like this, how do you avoid becoming so used to being told of the death of soldiers that you actually cease to feel the impact? Do you have to harden yourself or can you actually. Can you always feel the. The impact of that? And I guess that's a way of asking as well. We hear a lot about Ukrainian resilience, but how do you manage your own resilience and mental health?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

First of all, you can't control this pain and you can't forget it. I give orders to not only to soldiers, officers, but also one of the difficulties moments for me when I give it to mothers or fathers and to husbands, wives with children on their heads, when I give the orders for their relatives, for their children who been killed by Russians. And I Do it personally.

[Alastair Campbell]

You mean the medals?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Medals, yeah. When I give them, I always do it. I'm trying to do it personally. Not, not to forget about these people and to feel because all these people, mothers and father, they always say something and I said they, they say something. Sometimes they're very strong but cry and sometimes they need just hakes. And that's why I. I feel all this, all these losses and I have to feel, and I think that the president has to feel it. He has to look to the eyes of these people who gave their relatives, their children, the lives of their children. They gave it. And that's why we live only this reason. That's why we live. Because somebody gave his own life for this.

[Alastair Campbell]

And what about you and your. Is it. How do you look after yourself?

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

No, for me it's, you know, on the attacks we feel like, like the attacks. And I mean this. When, when there are losses, it's a big pain and. But psychologically I think that we all in distress in any way. It's. I mean this, it's. When we look at our children, we see how it's. You know, how what the questions they have that they are not. I mean they're not happy as children have to be happy that they are not children. They are adults. As I said about it once, I see. When I look to the eyes of my 13 years sin, I see that it's the eyes of adults, not about children.

[Alastair Campbell]

Well, thank you. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for everything you do. I don't know how you do it. And now you keep smiling.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

We love our country and our life and that's why we have to not to forget all the feelings of the life. Yes. Because I mean this. We pay big, big price for this. It's understandable. Yeah. But don't forget that we are. That we are people. We are not, you know, we are not robots.

[Alastair Campbell]

Robots.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Yeah. We're people with, with pluses and minuses. Thank you so much.

[Alastair Campbell]

Thank you. And thank you team as well. They've been great.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Thank you.

[Alastair Campbell]

Thank you. Take care.

[Volodymyr Zelenskyy]

Thanks so much.

[Alastair Campbell]

Bye.