186. President Aleksandar Vučić: Russia, China, and How Serbia Could Join the EU

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Politics: Leading – President Aleksandar Vučić: Russia, China, and How Serbia Could Join the EU

Episode: 186
Date: April 26, 2026
Hosts: Alastair Campbell, Rory Stewart
Guest: Aleksandar Vučić (President of Serbia)
Location: Presidential Palace, Belgrade

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid, in-depth interview with Serbian President Aleksandar Vučić. Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart explore Vučić’s leadership through Serbia’s turbulent history, his approach to national identity, the legacy of wartime conflicts, Serbia’s relationship with Russia and China, the nation’s EU aspirations, democratic concerns, and Vučić’s own political future. The dialogue is direct and often challenging, offering rare insight into the mindset and strategies of a leader at the crossroads of major geopolitical shifts.

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Key Discussions & Insights

1. Revisiting the Kosovo War and Longstanding Tensions

[02:53 – 07:14]

• Alastair Campbell recounts their past “on opposite sides” during the Kosovo conflict, setting a personal and political context.
• Rory Stewart provides background on the Yugoslav wars and NATO intervention.
• Vučić expresses deep Serbian resentment toward the 1999 NATO bombing, resisting Western narratives of humanitarian motives:
  • Quote: “People are absolutely certain, which is even confirmed by almost everybody, that was done not in accordance with UN Charter...it was actually something west did in order to separate 14% of Serbia’s territory.” (07:14, Vučić)

2. Changing Legal Frames, Nationalism, and Reconciliation

[08:18 – 11:17]

• Vučić differentiates legalities of Bosnia vs. Kosovo wars and acknowledges his own shift from nationalism to pragmatism focused on peace and integration.
• He draws a parallel to Crimea, critiquing Western selectivity on territorial integrity.
  • Quote: “Would you say the same to Ukrainians with Crimea? Why do you look back to the past in 2014, you lost that Crimea. Why do you still claim that it’s your territory?” (11:17, Vučić)

3. Pandora’s Box: War, Borders, and Unintended Consequences

[13:33 – 15:13]

• Vučić insists Western intervention “opened Pandora’s box,” citing future global conflict and border changes.
  • Quote: “You opened that Pandora’s box and we'll all have a big pain in the future because of opening that Pandora's Box.” (13:58, Vučić)

4. The EU Path, “Open Balkan” Proposal & Integration Hurdles

[16:03 – 20:13]

• Discussion shifts to EU accession. Vučić reiterates the impossibility of moving forward without resolving Kosovo, but suggests open economic integration (Schengen/single market) as the path to peace.
  • Quote: “Our idea was…open the Balkan area for all of us. Doesn’t matter entities, states, countries, whatever you call it, everybody’s free to move.” (16:39, Vučić)
• He highlights persistent obstacles: five EU states’ continued non-recognition of Kosovo, conditionality debates, and frustrations with the EU accession process.

5. Criticisms of Media Freedom & Rule of Law

[20:35 – 22:24]

• Campbell presses Vučić on accusations of democratic backsliding, media control, and judiciary independence.
• Vučić counters, citing aggressive media opposition and denying systemic suppression:
  • Quote: “You have more media against me here than against any other leader in the region.” (21:00, Vučić)

6. Nationalist Friendships: Viktor Orban & European Populism

[23:05 – 26:33]

• Vučić describes his friendship with Viktor Orban, citing their collaboration for Hungarian-Serbian reconciliation:
  • Quote: “Now we are brothers. We used to have...big brawls...now...less than 30 [incidents]. Chapeau. And thank you for that.” (24:39, Vučić)
• When asked if a similar rapport is possible with Kosovo's Albin Kurti, Vučić flatly denies it.

7. Serbian Domestic Priorities & Strategic Vision

[26:46 – 28:11]

• Vučić emphasizes a focus on internal stability, economic reforms, and modernization—claiming achievements in growth, digitalization, and reindustrialization.

8. Trump, Orban, and the Appeal of Conservative Politics

[28:01 – 30:23]

• Vučić openly aligns with right-wing populism, stating he’d have voted for Trump were he American, attributing Trump’s appeal to Serbian resentment toward Democrats (over Kosovo) and a conservative national character.
  • Quote: “If I were American, would have voted for Donald Trump.… people here are mainly conservative, traditional people, many of them religious.” (28:41, Vučić)

9. Future of Europe: American Influence, EU Hesitation, and Eastern Bloc Dynamics

[32:00 – 34:42]

• Vučić foresees a US strategy to build its own bloc of influence in Eastern Europe if the EU does not integrate countries like Serbia, warning of division and missed opportunities for European cohesion.
  • Quote: “I believe America will build its own structure, taking five to 10 countries in Europe, mainly in East Europe...predominant influence of the United States…creating issues for the European Union.” (32:05, Vučić)

10. Serbia’s East-West Balancing Act: Russia and China

On Russia

[36:57 – 41:44]

• Rejects depiction of Serbia as “Russia’s puppet,” insists on sovereignty, transparency about Serbia’s arms exports, and a pragmatic relationship.
  • Quote: “We are Serbs. We are not small Russians. We are not small Ukrainians. We are just Serbs.” (40:09, Vučić)
• Notes shift in Serbia’s key economic partners: Germany and China now eclipse Russia.

On China

[41:44 – 45:03]

• Professes admiration for China’s “eye of the tiger,” efficiency, and technological progress.
  • Quote: “I admire their diligence, their devotion. I admire something they have and we lost...It’s an eye of a tiger.” (43:53, Vučić)

11. Leadership, Legacy, and the Future of Vučić

[45:08 – 49:49]

• Addressing speculation he might alter Serbia’s constitution to remain president, Vučić says he won’t violate term limits, but leaves open the possibility of continuing as Prime Minister if "fit for the job."
  • Quote: “If I will feel fit, then I might go. If not, I'll be very honest and very sincere with my people.” (49:00, Vučić)

12. Vision for Serbia and Europe

[49:49 – 52:26]

• Cites economic turnaround as legacy; proposes realistic partial EU integration as the practical future.
  • Quote: “This country is 61% of overall Western Balkan FDI attraction...50% of overall Western Balkans GDP...We changed the face of this country.” (50:10, Vučić)
• Stresses leadership fatigue: “They're fed up with you. They just want to change something in their life. They're fed up with the same face staring at that for 14 years.” (52:13, Vučić)

13. Final Reflections: Personal Side & Serbian Football Culture

[53:13 – 54:34]

• Briefly discusses past as a football hooligan, the passion of Serbian sports rivalry, and how it shapes national character.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Western intervention and precedents:
  “Many people in the world started doing something against sovereign nations and changing borders because they saw that you were able to change our borders.” (11:52, Vučić)

• On friendship with Viktor Orban:
  “He was courageous enough. But ... what was the real reason that we made a friendship...Hungarian Serbian friendship.” (23:27, Vučić)

• On Chinese ambition versus European stagnation:
  “They have long-term targets, long-term aims…How does it look our working day? We work for two or three hours. Everything else belong to digital laziness and complaining against our bosses.” (44:39, Vučić)

• On his future and fatigue in leadership:
  “If I won't be able to find that energy, I say to my people, not fit for the job...” (47:33, Vučić)

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Reflections & Debrief ([54:42 – 65:09])

• Alastair and Rory reflect on the complexity of interviewing a divisive figure, emphasizing the rationale for letting Vučić speak openly to illustrate the Serbian nationalist worldview.
• Discussion on the single market proposal as a stepping stone for Balkan integration.
• Recognition of the broader context: Serbia’s balancing act among global powers, and the “threat” of the US capitalizing on EU enlargement hesitation.
• Noted the disconnect in how small/mid-sized countries think more geopolitically than some large Western politicians.
• A future joint interview with both Vučić and Kosovo’s Albin Kurti is proposed for further dialogue.

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Timestamps for Major Topics

| Segment/Theme | Start Time | |------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Kosovo War & Serbia’s perspective | 07:14 | | Legal and nationalist framing | 08:34 | | Pandora’s box: intervention consequences | 13:33 | | EU pathway and “Open Balkan” vision | 16:03 | | Media freedom & democracy criticisms | 20:35 | | On Viktor Orban and Hungarian friendship | 23:05 | | Internal priorities & economic reforms | 26:12 | | Trump, Orban, conservative politics | 28:01 | | US/EU influence and strategic future | 32:00 | | Russia relations and arms export debate | 36:57 | | China admiration and strategy | 41:44 | | Will Vučić stay in power? (leadership future) | 45:08 | | Legacy, economics, and Serbia’s future | 49:49 | | Football, personal background | 53:13 | | Hosts’ debrief/analysis | 54:42 |

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Tone and Style

Throughout the interview, the tone is robust, direct, sometimes combative but also occasionally humorous and personal. Campbell and Stewart press Vučić, but give him ample space to articulate Serbia’s narrative on the world stage.

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Final Thought

This episode is an essential listen for understanding the perspectives shaping Serbia’s domestic and international policy in a polarized, shifting Europe. Vučić is presented as a complex, often paradoxical figure: pragmatic yet nationalist, defiant yet fixated on modern reform, open to economic integration with the West but equally admiring of Russia and China. The conversation is a vivid lens on the tensions and calculations facing leaders at Europe’s edge.

Transcript

[Alistair Campbell]

Thanks for listening to the Rest is Politics. Sign up to the Rest is Politics plus to enjoy ad free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolitics.com that's therestispolitics.com Help

[Rory Stewart]

us understand your position in relation to Russia.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

You were presenting yourself as a beacon of democracy. Russia was a beacon of evil, which is not true.

[Rory Stewart]

Broadly speaking, we are more democratic than Russia, right? I mean the gray and nuances. But Putin is running.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

There are different cultures. There are different traditions. You were always speaking about Serbia. That was a Russian puppet.

[Alistair Campbell]

We've never said that. Okay, or never said that.

[Rory Stewart]

What does it feel like looking back to the fact that we were enemies and we're now sitting around a table together?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Many people in the world started doing something against sovereign nations and changing borders because they saw that you were able to change our borders. We have principles, unlike you Alister from time to time on Iran

[Rory Stewart]

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[Alistair Campbell]

Welcome to the Dresses Politics Leading with

[Rory Stewart]

me Alistair Campbell and with me Rory

[Alistair Campbell]

Stewart and we are in the Presidential palace in Belgrade, capital of Serbia with Aleksandr Vuci. Now when I first came across Mr. Vucic, he was in charge of the government information machine under Slobodan Miloev. I had a similar role in the UK and then when we were at war over Kosovo at NATO, he rose through politics first to become prime minister and now for the last nine years has been president. I on the other hand present a podcast with Rory Stewart. So we won the war, I would argue, but maybe he has won the battle for long term power and relevance.

[Rory Stewart]

Quick explainer for younger listeners and others, what happened? Well, essentially there was a war in former Yugoslavia which took place from the early 1990s onwards, which involved the breaking away of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia Herzegovina, North Macedonia, ultimately Montenegro. But there was a second war which Alastair and I were closely involved in different ways as an official and Alastair as a very senior member of Tony Blair's administration, which was about the fact that in Kosovo itself, Milosevic launched a campaign which was perceived by us, not by President Vucic, as you will doubtless here, but certainly perceived by the west as a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Kosovo Albanians. This then led to an intervention, a coalition of 19 countries, Britain, the United States, France and others intervening in order to, from our point of view, protect the right of Kosovar Albanians their human rights against Serbian aggression and from the Serbian point of view, intervening illegally in contravention of UN regulations into their sovereign territory, drove the Serbian troops back and achieved autonomy and ultimately, from the point of view of Britain and others, the recognition of Kosovo as an independent state. This is seen by people like Alastair and myself as a great example of liberal intervention, standing up for human rights against a bloodthirsty dictator who eventually went off and was tried as a war criminal, but is seen as Serbians as removing a part of Serbia, Serbian territory which matters deeply to them because it was in Kosovo Polya that they fought their great battle against the Ottoman Turks and they very much saw Kosovo as a vital, sacred part of the Serbian nation. Much more of that to be played out in the interview to come.

[Alistair Campbell]

Like all presidents, he's got a lot on his plate. He has a lot of supporters and he has a lot of critics. His supporters say with some justification that he's done a good job on the economy. His critics say that he has authoritarian tendencies in the model of Mr. Viktor Orban recently defeated Hungary. His supporters say he's committed to driving Serbia towards the European Union. His critics say sometimes the deeds don't always match the words. This is a European country, but it's one with very close ties to Russia, which with China, people may be surprised to know, poll as the two most popular foreign powers here. So he's trying to balance the European path with all these other complicated relationships and a very complicated history. Not least Kosovo, which continues to be tricky, and Ukraine, where Serbia's indirect provision of munitions has perhaps led to some rough conversations with Russia and even the Russian intelligence services saying that President Vuchi has blood on his hands. The China relationship came into very close focus around the world when a train station canopy collapsed in 2024, killing 16 people with allegations of corruption in the deals with China and the birth of a student protest moment, which has become quite a force in Serbia. And of course, like all world leaders, he's having to adapt to the world of Trump term two and think about his own future as he's only got one year left of his presidency. So we have got a lot to get through.

[Rory Stewart]

Mr. President, thank you very much for doing the interview. Can we start in Kosovo? I mean, it's a strange connection for us. I was a British diplomat based with the military and Montenegro and Kosovo during the war. And of course, as he's pointed out, he was also working on Kosovo. So what does it feel like, looking back over 26, 27 years, to the fact that we were enemies and we're now sitting around a table together today.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

If you ask ordinary Serbian people what they feel about 1999 and how they felt, they feel even bigger resentment, they feel bigger disappointment with the behavior of 19 countries that launched aggression against a sovereign state. And people are absolutely certain, which is even confirmed by almost everybody, that was done not in accordance with UN Charter, not in accordance with UN Resolution 1244. That was done not because of preventing humanitarian disaster, as it was said by Alistair and some other smart guys, but it was actually something west did in order to separate 14% of Serbia's territory, which was at least attempted to be done eight, nine years later, 2008, when they did this self proclamation of their independence.

[Rory Stewart]

And as a young man, you were very much on the nationalist side of the political debate. Looking back, do you draw a distinction between the wars in Bosnia and the war in Kosovo? Do you have a different attitude towards what Serbian.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

It's a different legal situation. The roots are. You can find a common denominator, speaking about the roots or the cause of the clash, of the clashes in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia and southern province. But at the end, it was a different legal situation, and you went through a transition.

[Rory Stewart]

I mean, I believe initially you had been supportive, and there were moments where it seemed as though you were earlier defensive of figures like Mladic, but later you supported the movement for trials.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

First of all, I believe I have changed my views, not only recently. It's a process, but it has nothing in common with the bombardment of Serbia or that aggression that was launched in 1999. But whether I am more pragmatic, more rational, whether I see the future of Serbia not in new wars, but in opening borders in an entire Balkans, opening borders with Europe, this is what I see. And I'm not ashamed. I'm not ashamed to say this. Even that with Mladi was exaggerated because you saw those labels with his name, that I was sticking somewhere. But it was not about that. It was about legal rights of some people to protest that were arrested about it. But, you know, you cannot explain everything to everybody. But anyway, I just wanted to tell you that what is the real issue today in the Balkan that people don't want to understand? Because for you, as Alistair has just said, it's all over. We won the war. You were stronger. 19 strongest countries in the world were stronger than one small Serbia. And it was not the case that Serbia attacked any of your countries. It was the case that you attacked Serbia. But people here are proud, dignified, and they don't forget it. And I like the fact that we are more rational, that we are future oriented. But if you ask the people about their souls, about their opinions, you're going to hear 90% of the same what I have just told you.

[Alistair Campbell]

But is that part of the reason why you, as the leader of the country, also have to say it? Can you not look back and think actually at the conduct of Miloevi and the attempted ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians and some of the massacres that took place, that the 19 countries would actually have been doing a disservice to humanity if we hadn't stepped in?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I really disagree with you on this, and I'm not gonna. I'll discuss part of your sentence, which is don't look back to the past, because would you say the Same to Ukrainians with Crimea. Why do you look back to the past in 2014, you lost that Crimea. Why do you still claim that it's your territory? You would never do so.

[Alistair Campbell]

I think I would.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

You would. I didn't hear it from any Western official.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I think part of the reason why Putin has gone on to do what he thinks he can do in the whole of Ukraine is because the world didn't stand up enough.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

But my point is, I can tell you, many people in the world started doing something against sovereign nations and changing borders because they saw that you were able to change our borders. Or at least you thought that you finished your job in 1999 and 2008. That was the way that Pandora's box was opened. Actually, when you say, if you ask all European officials today, if you ask all of them, tell me, how can you not be on Ukrainian side? We support territorial integrity of Ukraine. We act in accordance with UN Charter, UN resolutions and everything else. But my question to you is, why are you still. We have 1244 resolution in effect. It has not been dismantled or abolished. No, it's in effect. Why don't you observe that resolution?

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, but.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

And there. And it's not okay, Alistair. There are no responses to that. Whenever I say this, I hear the same sentence, don't look back to the past. And then I say, I don't look back to the past. You asked me the question, right? You wanted me to say this to you, otherwise would have spoken about, I don't know, Expo growth rates, GDP, public debt to GDP ratio and everything else.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, and listen, we've got 45 minutes and I want to cover lots of that. And just. And I do want to look forward, but the, the truth is, regardless of the history, you and I can go backwards and forwards on that. One of your strategic goals, as I mentioned at the outset, is for Serbia to become a member of the European Union. It's never going to happen unless this issue gets somehow resolved. It's never going to happen.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

If you remember, and I know that you remember, you two are very smart guys. Not going to flatter you. Furthermore. But you know something? You remember when you. How you emphasize that won the war, it's a different type of victories we had. Although I have never said that we won. We didn't, but I don't think that you won.

[Alistair Campbell]

Sorry, just unpack that. What do you mean by that?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

You opened that Pandora's box and we'll all have a big pain in the future because of opening that Pandora's Box.

[Alistair Campbell]

Do you think that relates to Iran today?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Even with Iran? Yeah. Yes. It's related to everything that was happening after that. And you know, all these politicians were saying the first attack in Europe, the first violation of territorial integrity, happened in Ukraine. No, it's not true. It happened here. It happened here. You were guaranteeing. Alister, you were guaranteeing us territorial integrity of Serbia if we accept territorial integrity and independence of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Macedonia.

[Alistair Campbell]

You don't accept.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

And we did accept that.

[Alistair Campbell]

No. And you don't accept that Slobodan Miloevic did anything which justified the action?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

No, I don't say that we were angels. I don't say that we were like people, without any faults, without any guilt.

[Alistair Campbell]

No.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

But we were not the only culprit, no doubt, for everything that was happening here. And I'm here speaking about the observance of international public law, which is very clear. And you cannot provide any kind of responses, even as a very smart man, and not any other guy can do that. The real issue is.

[Alistair Campbell]

But we can argue about that. It will take another five minutes of the interview.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

No, it can take even 10. Speaking about massacres and everything else. It was happening on both sides. It was exaggerated from your side about their destiny. It was also from our side. We were pretending that there were no war crimes on our side. But there were. But at the same time, there were many war crimes that not only Albanians, but foreign troops were committing against us as well. But. Okay, put that aside. Now the question is, Pandora's box is opened. Now no one will stop it. No one will stop it till some new world order is produced. And that's it. And it was all about Yugoslavia or Serbia, if you like it.

[Rory Stewart]

Mr. President, you did a very interesting op ed with Prime Minister, suggesting a new possibility for resolving this problem. And basically our listeners looking at Serbia, looking at a map, will think, this is crazy. Why is Serbia not in the European Union? It's like this big hole. Bulgaria, Romania, which are further east, are in the European Union. Serbia not.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Right.

[Rory Stewart]

I was interested in it, because maybe this also resolves the Kosovo situation. If you join the single market, join Schengen, maybe. Even if Kosovo did the same, then the borders don't matter. Northern Mitrovica is more integrated. It's easier for people to move back and forth. Can you explain a bit about this idea?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I can, yeah. And it's very easy. That was my idea, with an open Balkan as well. That's what we wanted. And then it was interrupted because some European big powers were not having a steering wheel in their hands.

[Rory Stewart]

But tell us more about the idea.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I'll tell you what is the overall idea. You know, Serbs lost 29% of its overall population in the First World War. We started First World War two months before you started. And we were the country with speaking about proportional numbers, of course, with the biggest losses in the First World War. Us, then French, then all the others. Second World War. Only Serbs were at the beginning of the war, anti Nazi oriented. Only Belgrade was bombed, as you know. All the others were receiving German tanks and German troops with flowers and greetings. Belgrade has never done it and we paid a big price for that as well. And we are fed up with wars. My idea was, and I wanted to finish, and I still want to finish my mandate, my tenure, without having any wars. And we were accused by your press, by everybody in Great Britain, thousands of times in last four and a half years since the war in Ukraine started, that small Serbia, those Russian puppets, will launch a war against someone in the Balkans in order to distract our attention from Russia and blah, blah, blah. And I was listening to that for more than four years. And I have never heard a word of apology or whatever. Never ever. We want to keep peace. And we invested into that peace. And my idea is, and our idea was, our common idea was, okay, open the Balkan area for all of us. Doesn't matter entities, states, countries, whatever you call it, everybody's free to move. Can you imagine how much easier would be for Bosniak from Novi Pazar to go to Sarajevo, particularly when we finish this highway towards Bosnian border? Much easier. Two hours, two and a half hours easy for them. No borders for Bosniaks from Sarajevo to go to Novi Pazar, for Serb from Binaluka to come to Belgrade, for Serb from Bielinak to come to Belgrade and vice versa for Serbs in Kosovsk, Mitrovica, they will always say we live in Serbia. Pristina will always say they live in Kosovo. But they will easily go to Pristina, they will easily go to Belgrade, they will easily go to Herzegovi, wherever they want. That was an idea. And to connect us economically and you know, you have to work with the governments, with the local regional countries, entities, authorities, that's it. And no one will never, ever put in jeopardy that kind of peace. And he was mentioning, if you don't recognize Kosovo's independence, you are not going to be a part of European Union. Now European Union is discussing full fledged membership status for Ukraine. We have nothing against it, to be very frank, very open. But what would be the territory that would join Europe.

[Alistair Campbell]

But they're also saying, does it mean

[Aleksandar Vučić]

that Europe will fight for that territory? Or there are still five non recognizers within European Union of Kosovo. What you're going to do with those countries, because you will never ever be able to force Spain never, ever to recognize Kosovo's independence because of their own interests.

[Alistair Campbell]

We had President Zelenskyy on the podcast recently, and he's very frustrated with Europe as well, because he thinks he's making reform, he's making progress, but he still has to go through a process. You have to go through processes. Okay. Now, I think Marta Costa, commissioner, is interested in this idea of getting everybody in and then sort of making the process part of the accession, as it were. But at the same time, you have been.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

We don't share the same views about.

[Alistair Campbell]

I know that. But you, you, you. And the reason is because you've been criticized.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

It's not boring with you.

[Alistair Campbell]

You've been, you've been criticized for backsliding on media, rule of law, judiciary and all this stuff.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Okay, I agree with you. Okay, agree with you.

[Alistair Campbell]

Right.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Just tell me, what is the backsliding with judiciary? I do understand now we are revoking something and we'll do our job. And I accept it.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I cannot accept all the arguments, but. Okay, I accept it. Our fault. Tell me about media. What did I do and what did we do regarding media? You have more media against me here than against any other leader in the region.

[Alistair Campbell]

No.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

Really?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Really. Okay, let us analyze it.

[Alistair Campbell]

No, let's not take too long on that. Okay.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Okay, then.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

You know what you do, because you. I don't. Okay. Okay, you pick this up.

[Rory Stewart]

Mr. President, I think my understanding, the nature of this argument is that you would say that social media is free and quite aggressive against. You. Would say that there are television channels that are very much on your side, that the coverage during the election was predominantly on your side, that it's not necessarily formal control. It's also where the advertisers go and the influence put.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I can not more agree with you, at least on something. There are TV channels that are on my side, private channels that state TV now, they say it's a modern language. It's a public broadcaster. Yes, it's a public broadcaster. They're totally not on my side. And during these revolutionary times, they shifted themselves absolutely to the other side. Now they are relatively more objective, but they were absolutely on their side.

[Rory Stewart]

So, Mr. President, let me tell you

[Aleksandar Vučić]

that there are no small medias. There are Mainstream medias that are very much against us, owned by big tycoons which invested huge amounts of money in propaganda and lies against me. And that's it. And you know, how can you understand the argument where someone is casting spells against you, even adding that your father actually is not your father because your mother was a whore and she was cheating your alleged father with one Albanian and that's why are you so much pro Albanian?

[Rory Stewart]

Do you think people are?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

And it was not said on social media. Of course I agree with mainstream media.

[Rory Stewart]

That's terrible. And I agree that is terrible. Do you think people were unfair to Viktor Orban? Do you think the west misunderstood him?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I believe that people are always right. That's what I believe. I'm a friend of Viktor Orban. I was and I will always be.

[Rory Stewart]

And why be your friend? What did you like about him?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I liked his openness. We disagreed on many things. Let's say when he was bringing decisions against Central European University and something else. I was asking them to come to Belgrade because I wanted to have a diversity of universities and faculties. Had no problems with that. And I asked him. I was very open with him. He became a big world known leader. He started taking care of Global south, fighting against big guys in Europe and all over the world against American Biden administration, Kamala and all the others, which was not easy. He was courageous enough. But what was the real reason that we made a friendship was something that we did both. And he deserves everything to be praised. It's Hungarian Serbian friendship. You both know how difficult that relationship used to be throughout history, within the

[Alistair Campbell]

half million Hungarians in Serbia and beyond. And Beyond.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

But that's 300,000. 300,000 Hungarians in Serbia. But anyway, big number of people now we are brothers. We used to have. Why I appreciate Victor Orban's role. Fifteen years ago we had almost 1,000 incidents. Speaking about big brawls, clashes, physical clashes between Hungarians and Serbs in Vojvodina recent years. Less than 30. 30 times less. 30 times less. Chapeau. And thank you for that. And you see how going to have good relationship with Petr Magyar. I'll do my best. Because this is something of the best interest for Serbian and Hungarian people. But I don't forget my friends and I never do.

[Alistair Campbell]

Could you see yourself ever developing that kind of relationship with Kurti? So you say you've got this very difficult situation. You and Viktor Orban get together and you develop a relationship and you fix it. Is it utterly impossible to think you might do that with Albin Kurti? And Kosovo.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I'll define my response in an easy way. There is no man in the world that can have that kind of relationship with Alvin Kurti, full stop.

[Alistair Campbell]

So this thing's going nowhere.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Not a single one. Because you cannot even find that kind of relationship with Karam Pearce, with Karen Pearce.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, okay, okay, Mr.

[Rory Stewart]

Pleasant, can I bring you back to this idea of the single market as a way of solving the European.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I was always more interested in resolving internal issues. More focused on growth rate of Serbia, more focused on reindustrialization of Serbia. Digitization of Serbia. This was my topic. He became a big world leader. And then people in Hungary missed him. They missed his presence.

[Alistair Campbell]

No, no.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

They missed his presence before.

[Alistair Campbell]

Because he went away.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yeah. Because he was tackling the other issues. And I was saying that to him, and he said to me, aleksandr, I'm experienced. I said, I believe you. You know better than I do.

[Alistair Campbell]

Did he think he was gonna win?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Did I think?

[Alistair Campbell]

Did he think I believe that he

[Aleksandar Vučić]

trusted in his pollsters in a way. Although he was saying to me that it was neck to neck. But two days after, it was not an easy conversation between two of us because it was emotional one, and we were speaking. It was a relatively long telephone conversation, open line. But he said to me, whatever you were saying to me, you were right and that there was something else. As a lousy chess player, I was always more prudent and more cautious and less optimistic than he was. This is my nature. I'm always more prudent and more cautious. That's why I'm avoiding any kind of clashes, even with the small guys. Even, take care of your things, of your job, then go somewhere else.

[Rory Stewart]

Mr. President, we are more, as you know, on the Kamala Harris side of politics, but maybe you can explain to us, what is it, do you think, that liberals like us don't understand about what Viktor Orban was trying to say or what Donald Trump is trying to do? What is the case for the more right wing style of politics?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I'll be very honest. I cannot justify every single move of Donald Trump. But if you ask me whether I do understand American people that voted for Donald Trump. Yes.

[Rory Stewart]

Tell us about it.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

If I were American, would have voted for Donald Trump. And you are now in a country where he used to have by far the highest level of popularity in an entire world apart from the United. No, much bigger than in the United states. It was 74, 75% popularity. Now it's lower. Now it's lower. But many other world leaders.

[Alistair Campbell]

And why do they like him. What do they like about him? And about that politics that he and Orban represent?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

First of all, people in Serbia, as I told you, they hate Clinton administration because of 1999 and 2008 Democrats. These are historical reasons. Then people here are more conservative. If you see my two older kids, my son and my daughter, they're totally different. One would always belong as a conservative, as a religious guy to Trump people. My daughter, although she's not lesbian, she supports all LGBT rights, all these alleged or real liberal values and everything else. But people in Serbia are mainly conservative, traditional people, many of them religious people, not only orthodox people, but Muslim people.

[Alistair Campbell]

Do you think Trump is religious?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

No, but he was speaking about family values. He was speaking something against transgender or whatever else. And people here like that. These were the main reasons at the end they expected to get. People were jubilant to see changes in the United States to find a friend in Washington after so many years. And they were cravingly trying to find a sufficient reason to say, okay, it's not America that we are fighting against. It was that. And that that administration, we have nothing against American people state. United States of America will love that country. And this was the reason why Trump got such a huge popularity here.

[Rory Stewart]

Maybe to come back to this, I mean, we feel strongly that because of what America is now demonstrating to the world, trying to take Greenland, this operation

[Aleksandar Vučić]

in Iran, like you tried to get Kosovo together with them.

[Rory Stewart]

We didn't try to take Kosovo as our territory. The United States was trying to take Greenland as their territory. They tried to annex the territory.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

But you tried to do it eight years after. After you.

[Rory Stewart]

As we're not trying to annex territory to our own country. We're not trying.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Not to your country, but to separate it from the other countries.

[Rory Stewart]

That's a slightly separate question, right?

[Alistair Campbell]

No, no, I think, listen, we should come back and do a whole series about.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

It's pretty much the same.

[Rory Stewart]

Okay, so you see, should you defend Trump on Greenland? Do you think the United States taking Greenland is.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

No, I'm not even defending. I'm not even defending violation of international public law on Iran. Although I believe that I'm a big friend of Israel. I believe so. The only flag that was hoisted here in front of this presidency, apart from Serbian flags and once European Union flag, was Jewish flag. I cannot justify absolutely everything, but whether I'm still a friend of Israel. Yes, I am.

[Alistair Campbell]

But you also recognize the Palestinian state.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yes, but also I cannot say that it's not a violation of international public law. When you start Attacking a sovereign country

[Rory Stewart]

like Iran to develop this, we assume

[Aleksandar Vučić]

that we have principles, unlike you, Alistair, from time to time. Sorry, Rodney.

[Rory Stewart]

As the world reconfigures, our instinct is that the future of European countries is a deeper integration with Europe and the European Union.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yes.

[Rory Stewart]

As opposed to the United States. We cannot rely on the United States in the way that we have for the last 70 years.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I believe that we reached the point of no return. What I believe that Americans will do in the future, this is my guess, and they are smart and diligent people, as you know, and they will try to build their structures in Europe. Now, Trump reasonably will try to escape from further conflicts in Iran. That will end one important era, but will bring us to very complicated and very complex relationship all over the world. And I believe that United States and their politicians, it doesn't matter. You're going to see that it's not going to be totally changed even when Democrats come to power, if they come to power, because there are still two and a half years. But what I believe that will happen, I believe that America will build its own structure, taking five to 10 countries in Europe, mainly in East Europe, under, not their control, but with the predominant influence of the United States of America, creating any issues for the European Union. And that's why I don't understand European Union, why those guys did not bring so far strategic decisions based even on that letter that was signed by Yadirama and myself. I don't get it, to tell you the truth, because all the other decisions were political in the past and we were not asking for veto. Right. We were not asking for commissioners, we were not asking even for bigger fundings. Nothing.

[Rory Stewart]

So, Mr. President, to summarize, your idea is that by pushing ahead with Serbia, Albania and presumably others joining the single market. All the others, yes, joining the single

[Aleksandar Vučić]

market because without all the others, it has no sense. And you're bringing, I don't know, Montenegro and Moldova to Europe without Serbia. What's the sense?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, bring them all into the single market. And one of the reasons strategically to do this is that if it doesn't happen, it provides an opportunity for the US to try to pull off the Eastern European countries away from the Western Europeans.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yes. Not only some countries here, but if I were them, would have done the same. Smart people would have done it. And then they can speak to one structure in Poland, they are deeply divided. Another structure in Romania, another structure in Bulgaria. It's not that easy for Europeans to keep control. If Americans would like to make it

[Alistair Campbell]

differently, do you think One of the worries in Europe, in the European Union, is that what you and Eddie put forward was a way of saying we can get in without doing all the things that Europe is asking us to do.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

No.

[Alistair Campbell]

You don't think that's their suspicion?

[Rory Stewart]

No.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I don't want to be rude. I am arrogant and impudent from time to time, as you know, dear Alistair and dear Rory. But I don't think so. When it was 2004, I believe, when Romania and Bulgaria joined European Union, were they fulfilling all requirements, all demands? Even today it's not a case.

[Alistair Campbell]

Do you think any of the big powers in Europe actually want enlargement to continue?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

If they don't, they're making a big strategic mistake.

[Alistair Campbell]

But do you think they do want it to continue?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I hope so. I hope that there are some understandings for the first time after many years in Italy, France and Germany. That's what I believe, but I'm not sure about it.

[Alistair Campbell]

Cousin Vujic. Rory, quick break. Back for more.

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[Rory Stewart]

Help us understand your position in relation to Russia. How should Europe think about Russia? How should the United States think about Russia? What is the strategic vision for the West?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

You were presenting yourself as a beacon of democracy. Russia was a beacon of evil and that's it. You know which is not true.

[Rory Stewart]

Explain that which is not true.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

There are nuances. There are many gray nuances. It's not everything that is black and white. But put that aside. What I was saying to everybody, broadly

[Rory Stewart]

speaking, we are more democratic than Russia, right?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Okay.

[Rory Stewart]

I mean the gray and nuances. But Putin is very different cultures.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

There are different cultures, there are different traditions, There are different worlds. At the end, Russia is not a part of European Union. At least you used to be a Part of European Union. But you were not satisfied and you left, as you know. And you are still fostering us to go there. And we listen to you and we are on that path.

[Rory Stewart]

We would also like to rejoin the European Union. We will join. We can be part of your projects.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yeah, but it's late to remorse on something that you have already done anyway. You were always speaking about Serbia that was a Russian puppet.

[Alistair Campbell]

We've never said that.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Okay.

[Alistair Campbell]

Or never said that. And also I would argue, I thought it was interesting in my introduction. I pointed out you've actually provided a lot of munitions to Ukraine that for some reason you don't want to talk about.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

No, I did not. I was doing my job, selling our ammunition to different countries because we need to earn money and we need to feed our workers. And then we discussed that with Russians. They attacked me face to face. They said to me this and that. And I said to them what I thought and what I had to say. And I said it in a very open, transparent and sincere way. I'm praising you. I'm not going to discuss it. No, no, I'm not going to discuss it. Because what was said on a closed meetings, I'm not going to expose it. But I had an answer for them. But let me tell you this.

[Alistair Campbell]

You didn't see backing Ukraine?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

No, we were backing all humanitarian efforts in Ukraine. We were sending money, we were sending humanitarian support and everything else. Armament and ordinance. We didn't sell to anybody, to any of warring factions. This is our official stance and that's it. Speaking about speaking.

[Alistair Campbell]

So the Americans aren't a warring faction?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

No, we had long term agreements with Americans for 25 years.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Pervit partisan, you know, they were selling ammunition for 25 years to United States of America for 25 years, let's say. But we were selling, let's say, to some African countries that were re. Exporting that to Ukraine. We were selling to Russians, were very angry because we sold many things to Bulgaria, then to Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I was. But that was my decision to sell it to Bosnia.

[Alistair Campbell]

That's why we've never said you're Putin's puppet. What Rory's trying to find out is what your relationship is.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Always our relationship is we are traditional friends. We have good relationship with them, but we are a sovereign nation and we are an independent country. And we are Serbs. We are not small Russians. We are not small Ukrainians. We are just Serbs.

[Alistair Campbell]

Will you go to the May 9 ceremony this year?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I haven't decided yet, but I was there Last year. And just let me tell you this, dear Rory. And people were always exaggerating about it, about Russia's influence, everything else, okay, we have good relationship. They can always give me a call, I can give them a call. And I believe that's helpful always. But the real issue is, when I became the prime minister, Russia was partner number two. Italy was number one. Bosnia and Herzegovina was number three. Now economic partner number one by far is Germany. Number two is China. Russia is number 11. Serbia has changed. It's not about political approaches, it's about economy. It's about economy. It's about reindustrialization of the country. It's about a country that progressed so much that now we have more than 2 billion of trade exchange with Poland, Czech Republic, Slovak Republic, Hungary, Romania, and all those in a way surrounding EU countries, which is a big, big, big change. It has never, ever been the case before.

[Rory Stewart]

China, where do you think strategically? Europe. Serbia should position itself in relation to China. How should we think about the Chinese relationship?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

China is. I know that you were listening to Li keqiang's speech from 2015 or 2016 in Munich conference. He was saying, in a relatively naive way, but very smart way, he was saying, you know, China just want to renew and to revive something that was regular, to become number one power of the world. And then Angela Merkel replied to that, saying, who told you so? That it was a regular situation. And she got a big applause. But China showed itself as a very serious state, very responsible state on a world political stage. A country that brings stability. And that country, they're so successful, they're overtaking everybody, including United States of America. Even combining softwares and hardware, they're ahead AI and softwares. They're neck to neck with Americans. Whether you're going to buy Chinese hybrid or electric vehicle or European, most of the people just in five years in Europe will pick Chinese hybrid and electric vehicles.

[Alistair Campbell]

I get the feeling watching some of the things you said about China and the number of times you've visited China that you've got.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I'm a big admirer of huge admiration. Yes. And I don't hide it.

[Alistair Campbell]

They are a dictatorship. Okay? What put that to one side. They have a different system.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

You cannot impose. You cannot impose your values and your thoughts, faults to everybody else in the world.

[Alistair Campbell]

I'm not trying to do that.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

No, you have to observe. You have to respect someone else, customs, tradition. You know, I can do that.

[Alistair Campbell]

I was making a different point. Okay. I was going to say, put that to one side. What is It.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I'm not going to put that on that side. Don't mention it.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay. What is it that they do that you admire so much?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I'll tell you. I admire their diligence, their devotion. I admire something they have. And we lost. We Europeans, we lost. It's an eye of a tiger. They're cravingly trying to overtake United States of America. We are lagging behind. Take the best European car companies there, at least we know that people, ordinary people, they don't know it because they cannot find that information in any of our papers. We are lagging behind Chinese on technological level regarding hybrid machines, not combustion engine. Three to four years at least. And you believe that we are going to close that gap in the years to come? No, the gap will become bigger because they have an eye of a tiger. They are ready to work not only eight hours, but 10 or 12 hours. They have long term targets, long term aims, what we do. How does it look? Our working day? We work for two or three hours. Everything else belong to digital laziness and complaining against our bosses, against.

[Alistair Campbell]

So we've lost our will. We've lost our will to win. Do you think it would be good if China did overtake the United States?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I cannot discuss that. I'm not that smart. I'm just saying what I see today. I am not a prophet, not a visionary person. But what I'm doing, like in chess, like in sports, I can put pieces together, I can analyze the situation.

[Alistair Campbell]

And you definitely made an early big bet on China, that's for sure. And it helps a bit. I know you don't like taking these compliments. Let me ask you this. Your constitution. You can only serve two terms and you're. You're heading to the 10th year and

[Aleksandar Vučić]

your papers were saying that I would

[Alistair Campbell]

stop going about my papers. I don't even read our papers.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I still understand a bit of English. Yes, that's how I read it.

[Alistair Campbell]

What are they saying?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yes, they were saying tens of times that Vucic was preparing himself and preparing the ground for changing the constitution because he'll never leave this special palace.

[Alistair Campbell]

I'm not saying that. I haven't read those. Okay, let me ask the question.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

You didn't read your.

[Alistair Campbell]

The question is whether you might do a Putin Medvedev situation where you actually. You go back to being Prime Minister again, somebody like Anna Barnaby becomes the president and you stay part of the scene. You're still very young. You're a lot younger than I am.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

It's not about someone's age. I Still have more energy and bigger enthusiasm than most of my opponents and even most of people that are surrounding me. But I'll be very honest with you. Now we are doing polls, all the polls, all different surveys, all focus groups, all crisis groups, everything, in order to see whether there are other candidates able to beat the candidates that are coming from the opposition.

[Alistair Campbell]

Other people. By people other than you?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

For President and Prime Minister.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I cannot candidate myself for the President.

[Alistair Campbell]

No, no.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

So for Prime Minister, because I'm not going to violate our constitutional regulations, I'm now scrutinizing possibility for candidating someone else on parliamentarian list in order to be the new Prime Minister. We'll see whether there is possibility to secure our legacy in that way or not.

[Alistair Campbell]

If there isn't, would you stand?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I'll do that. But the problem that I have today is that, and I cannot hide it, and it's not fair towards my people if I won't be able to find that energy. I say to my people, not fit for the job. Because you know what I passed in last 14 years, you know how difficult that was for you in other easy times, a bit smaller period of time, and you just put yourself into my shoes. In last 12, 13, 14 months, what I passed through. It's something that no other leaders have been going through.

[Alistair Campbell]

You're talking about Novi Sad, you're talking about.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yeah, I'm talking about everything. I'm talking about all the attempts to overthrow me, mainly finance from outside. Also, it was partly genuine, no doubt.

[Alistair Campbell]

But you're still the most powerful person in Serbia by a mile.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

And the most popular.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, exactly.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

But this is back to the difference between you and Orban, that you're just looking on the dark side.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Maybe you're right. But the real issue is that I want to see vtrich from with the same level of energy which I had in 2017, 2019, even 2020.

[Alistair Campbell]

But you're more than 20 years younger than Donald Trump. I think you do.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I'm almost 10 years younger than that young candidate of the students, you know. So what I'm telling you, it's not about someone's ages. If I will feel fit, then I might go. If not, I'll be very honest and very sincere with my people. Because at the end, all the other guys from the opposition would be jubilant just not to see my name on the list.

[Rory Stewart]

My final question. Let's say you remain in politics, you become prime minister, or you remain influential. What is your vision that you would drive through in terms of Europe and what is your vision in terms of what you would drive through inside Serbia? And in particular, what is the long term post Vucic vision? What is the kind of democracy that you imagine Serbia becoming?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

You asked me a question that goes in depth of our society. I'll tell you something else before that. I believe that spending few hours in Belgrade you were able, dear Alistair, to see totally different city from the last

[Alistair Campbell]

time I was here. Yes, yeah, definitely.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Totally different city. Absolutely. Everything has changed. We changed the face of this country. Everything's different. This country is 61% of overall Western Balkan FDI attraction. This country is 50% of overall Western Balkans GDP. This country is 55% of overall Western Balkans export. This country, when I became the Prime Minister, used to have public debt to GDP ratio 79%. Today is 41%. Just for you to know, average salary used to be €329. Today's 1,057. I believe significant change. We built more highways, more motorways than it was built in last 60 years. This will remain my legacy. What I believe, speaking about structural reforms, democracy, Europe. I think that we can become a part of Europe in a way that we proposed everything else European countries will never agree upon. And this is the only rational and I believe the only possible way being a part of Europe which we want to be. If you ask me whether I would like to be a full fledged member state. Yeah, but that is not going to happen that easy. Because of all these pre terms that we discussed. Yes, let us do this. Let us do this. And then at the end, even if I become the Prime Minister, even if I go for that which is not certain yet, otherwise would have already announced that even if it happens, that would be my last tenure. I will say that in advance, like Angela Merkel used to say that. Because you have to understand that people become fed up with you. Doesn't matter whether you did something wrong or not. Nobody cares about it. They're fed up with you. They just want to change something in their life. They're fed up with the same face staring at that for 14 years.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, and you're on the TV a lot. It's part of your job. It's not a criticism.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

No, no, no. But you know, I was thinking about it thousands of times and Edirama is always making a joke about it. He prefers social networks. Now Vucic has to refer to his Serbian citizens. He didn't do it twice today. He to do it and that's it, you know. But if I was not doing that, then you would say you're an arrogant bastard that didn't want to show any kind of care for your. For his own people. You. You don't explain anything to your people. You don't justify your position, your stances and everything else. It's always easy to criticize and to spit on someone. If that was not done that way, you would criticize it from the other side.

[Alistair Campbell]

Now, listen, Susanna's giving me the evil eye, and you've got to go in a visit. My very final question we normally talk a lot about with our guests, about their childhood and their upbringing. How serious a football hooligan were you?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I. I was a big football fan.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. I'm a big football fan. But were you also.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I was partly a football hooligan, you

[Alistair Campbell]

know, Partly a hooligan.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yes. I was arrested in different parts of former.

[Alistair Campbell]

I was never. I was never arrested. No, I was.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

I was not.

[Alistair Campbell]

I was watching football. And when there's a lot of violence around football, so it was impossible not to get involved in it. But you went looking. You went looking for.

[Rory Stewart]

And you got arrested many times.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yes.

[Rory Stewart]

You're more of a hooligan than him.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, much more.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Much. A bit much more, yes. But, you know, is football still as

[Alistair Campbell]

political here as it ever was? Is it still as political?

[Aleksandar Vučić]

We are. We are passionate people. We are ardent people here. We have two big teams or. Yeah. Red Star and partisan, as you know. And it's a big rivalry, like United and even bigger, like Celtic Rangers.

[Alistair Campbell]

Like.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Like Liverpool. Everton.

[Alistair Campbell]

No, that's not.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Celtic. Rangers.

[Alistair Campbell]

Celtic Rangers. Burnley. Blackburn, I think, is probably Blackburn. Yeah.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

He's serious. He knows.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Serious.

[Alistair Campbell]

He knows.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Of course I know. It was like Litz Millwall before, you know.

[Rory Stewart]

He's a big Burnley fan. Huge.

[Alistair Campbell]

He knows a lot about me. Anyways, lovely to see you again.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

It's good to see you always. And please come more often to Servia.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay. Thank you very much indeed.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Thank you very much.

[Rory Stewart]

Thank you.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Thanks a lot.

[Rory Stewart]

Thank you.

[Aleksandar Vučić]

Bye Bye.

[Alistair Campbell]

So, Rory, we've met. President Vucic, me for the. I don't know how many time, and

[Rory Stewart]

me for the first time.

[Alistair Campbell]

And what do you make of it?

[Rory Stewart]

Well, it's extraordinary. I mean, first thing I think to explain to the viewers and listeners is we're in the Presidential palace, which is, of course, much, much grander than Downing Street.

[Alistair Campbell]

So much grander than Downing Street.

[Rory Stewart]

And we walked past all those glass cabinets which were full of what they

[Alistair Campbell]

were full of mainly weapons that had been given to him by other leaders, swords. And there were a Couple of guns from Vladimir Putin.

[Rory Stewart]

Quite interesting. So the Russians are great ones for giving semi automatic weapons, 19th century rifles, cutlasses. But interestingly, the Azerbaijanis, the Czechs give little handguns. There's a lot of.

[Alistair Campbell]

There's some beautiful icons down there.

[Rory Stewart]

Beautiful icons as well. So a long sense of martial history, Serbian Orthodox history.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. And we're in the library with a table which is a chessboard because he

[Rory Stewart]

is actually a very serious chess player.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, people say he's a very, very good chess player. He was saying he was very average, but.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, well, what he actually said is that he won the Belgrade parish level and never quite made it to the master's level. So it'd be interesting to play Richard Reeves, who caught a very serious chess player. Yeah, listen, I think more seriously, he is a figure who is very popular with some Serbs and very, very unpopular with other Serbs. So when people are listening, I hope they will feel that we gave him opportunities to talk, that it was a generous interview. There will be Serbia from the opposition who will be very angry. They will feel that we should have been much tougher on authoritarianism, on all the allegations around the judiciary, the media. And of course, if you are our friend Alvin Kurti listening, you'll be very cross that we didn't challenge more strongly on Kosovo. How do you think about this question of what happens when you interview somebody who's a genuinely controversial figure with a very, very difficult past?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, put it this way, all political leaders have some people who love them and some people who hate them. He is, I said at the end, by some distance, the most popular politician in, in Serbia. My hunches for all that, you know, I think genuine sort of.

[Rory Stewart]

He's basically saying he's going to run to be president.

[Alistair Campbell]

I think he's going to run to be prime minister. And that means that he stays basically very, very powerful because as I understand the Serbian constitution, the prime minister used to be the most powerful position in the country. When he had it, he's become the president. I wonder if it won't go back. You're right that some people maybe think we didn't push him hard enough and this and that. But what he's very, very good at. We could have spent the whole 50 minutes, whatever it was, just revisiting arguments that we had during the Kosovo war. And I think a lot of our listeners and viewers would have got very fed up. He's not going to give ground on that. I'm not going to give ground in terms of us thinking that it was legal and we were doing the right thing. But that is for the past. I thought he was much more aggressive on Europe than I thought he would be. I wondered whether part of the reason for him wanting to do the interview or agreeing to do the interview was actually to say, you know, I'm going to be a bit nicer about Europe. But no, he was very, you know, we've given you an idea, it's a good idea. If you don't take it, you're making the big mistake.

[Rory Stewart]

In a way, we need to develop it more. Because for those of us who believe, certainly you and I do, that Europe now needs to be the other corner of the global square. This whole question of how you get these countries, which are right in the heart of Europe, which are a sort of hole in the donut of Europe now, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Kosovo, et cetera, into the European Union is completely viceful. And so he's come up with this very interesting proposal which I think I'm fully in favor of, which is let's push for a single market solution and that will give them access to the European markets, free movement of people, no borders. So what he was describing was essentially something that felt a little bit like the Good Friday agreement in relation to Kosovo. Once the border disappears, as he points out, the Kosovo Albanian population can very much feel they're in Kosovo. The Serbian population, north Mitrovice and northern Kosovo can feel they're part of Serbia, but it doesn't matter, not a border. Right.

[Alistair Campbell]

And the fact that he did it with Eddie Rama, the Prime Minister of Albania, was.

[Rory Stewart]

But the big disagreement, I guess in that is presumably with Marta Kos and others in the European Union who actually imagine it the other way around. They would rather have full European Union membership and then catch up on the conditions, rather than single market membership delaying the EU membership.

[Alistair Campbell]

Although when I went to Ukraine with Martikos, I got the feeling that she does feel something has to give, but she feels to get the member states to allow something to give, she has to have more sense of a buy in for the processes. And she was clear with that with Zelenskyy as well. But listen, I think what he was saying as well about, I guess if you take out all our spat over Kosovo, what he was talking about there I think is a smallish, a small country, small medium sized country like Serbia working out its place in the world at a time of monumental geopolitical change. And he was basically saying America's always going to be important, but we've got our doubts. He was saying, Russia, you guys have got a very, very narrow lens through which you look. We're trying to broaden that lens. And he was basically saying about China, if you don't recognize that this is where the future is coming from, you're in trouble. It's least the vision of your place in the world.

[Rory Stewart]

And actually, it's a very interesting vision because certainly from the US point of view, they would be very uncomfortable with their talk about China. The one thing that most of the Democrats and Republicans agree on is that China is a threat and a peer competitor. The one thing that the British right agrees on. You see this in Boris Johnson's op eds and Things thinks that if you have to choose, you have to choose the US against China, because China is seen as a dictatorial regime that's destroying.

[Alistair Campbell]

And he wanted to push that to

[Rory Stewart]

one side, push that whole aside. I also thought that even though it will irritate some people, I thought it was good actually to hear him give the nationalist narrative, remind people that this is actually genuinely what a nationalist politician

[Alistair Campbell]

and to speak positive about war, bandwidth

[Rory Stewart]

and the Balkans thinks.

[Alistair Campbell]

Never been done on the Russia's politics before.

[Rory Stewart]

Positive about Orban, relatively positive about Russia. Challenging ideas of liberal democracy, challenging liberal interventions. Standing up.

[Alistair Campbell]

Was he speaking to your inner conservative?

[Rory Stewart]

No. I mean, I didn't feel he was speaking to my inner conservative. But I think it's really useful whenever we feel we're in a bubble, to be reminded that there is a whole world out there of people who he was relatively gently actually explaining, have a completely, radically different worldview that we maybe don't give enough space to. I had an irony, though, that on his desk he had the place of Alexander Popovich, which I thought was an extraordinary thing to do. Alexander Popovich is basically, you could argue, is a sort of satirist of the current Serbian regime. He actually writes about the Communist period, but he's writing about wily politicians who change their political views. He writes about bureaucrats, propagandists, use the language. He's basically a satirist of, you could argue of. Of the contemporary political scene. And yet it was sitting on his desk. I don't know whether he reads Alexander Popovich, but it would be a bit like, I don't know, you know, Nigel Farage having George Orwell on his desk. It's a very sort of discordant thing. Is he doing it ironically? Is he doing it without being conscious of the criticisms?

[Alistair Campbell]

Might it be, Rory, that this is a room that they use for interviews and they've just put a few books on it. Never really. I don't know, never really thought of it, but it was interesting at the end.

[Rory Stewart]

You wouldn't let me ask him about it. So we will never know.

[Alistair Campbell]

You ask for it if you want, but I didn't. I think if we. I'd rather have talked about China and Russia than the books on his desk. Interesting though it is. But it was interesting at the end, after we'd stopped filming, when he started then to give us a long reading list about books about Serbian history and the 19 literature that we should read,

[Rory Stewart]

which again is very striking. I mean, something that the British basically suffer from historical amnesia. We have no real memory of what happened in 1997, let alone in 1897.

[Alistair Campbell]

I remember 1997.

[Rory Stewart]

Whereas Serbia, you know, really does want to think about what the British did in relation to the ottomans in the mid 19th century, which really is. Doesn't feature.

[Alistair Campbell]

I, I'm. I'm always. It's not that I'm impressed by meeting politicians who read lots of books, but I'm always unimpressed by politicians who don't. I think that, you know, I know how busy politics is, but if you don't broaden your mind by. By, by reading, particularly by history politics, then I think you're missing a big trick.

[Rory Stewart]

Now, the biggest thing that you achieve, for which congratulations is that at the end he said that he would agree to do an interview with the two of us and Albin Kurti, which would

[Alistair Campbell]

be, I think would be only their second.

[Rory Stewart]

Would be. Would be unbelievable. So let's. Let's try to make.

[Alistair Campbell]

We'd definitely try to. If Albin Kurti is listening or his people are listening, we said at the end, listen, this cost of everything. You've got to at least make an effort. We've talked to Alpine. Cause you on the podcast, we found him fairly reasonable. Why can't we come back and get the two of you together? And he said, I'd be happy with that. So, Albino, if you're listening, let's try it and let's try and disagree agreeably. Do you think we disagreed agreeably on Kosovo? Was that okay?

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah, yeah, we did agree. Listen, there's a whole series of bits of background which probably is worth explaining. So he is essentially saying that Britain in particular, you know, David Cameron did a lot of this. British intelligence did a lot of this, was saying that Serbia was trying to destabilize northern Kosovo. And he said it didn't happen. Actually, there were some very disturbing movements around police stations, weapons, weapons, paramilitaries. It's a very tense, difficult situation. But he is correct so far. Peace has held and we've got to lean into the optimistic reading. And the optimistic reading would be that he's been on a huge journey, he's changed his political positions a number of times and if we can push it in a pro European position, that would be great. Final one for me there. He had this very interesting narrative that we've heard less about, which was the sort of implicit threat to Europe, which is if you don't push ahead with enlargement, then we do off Eastern Europe will start playing footsie with the more right wing version of the United States. So the idea would be the Law and Justice Party in Poland or Russia, the more populous, but particularly you said the US are really going to be able to play with the populace in Romania, Bulgaria.

[Alistair Campbell]

That is part of the US strategy. The reason they were so invested in Orban's election. I don't know whether they'll do the same here, but Bulgaria as well, Germany, France, I mean, it's obvious. Uk, it's kind of obvious what they're trying to do. Anyway. Look, I thought it was really interesting. I think a lot of. I think you're right. Some people would have expected us to sort of want to just come and beat him up. I think that was pretty pointless. I thought he. Yeah, I thought he made some really interesting observations about the state of the world and Serbia's place within it, which ultimately is kind of his job.

[Rory Stewart]

Yeah. And interesting, I always feel, when we interview presence of Serbia, Kosovo, Greece, Cyprus, even Spain. How actually much more confident they are speaking about the geopolitical frame and the world order than somebody like Keir Zamaris. Now that may be that a smaller country feels freer to think big thoughts.

[Alistair Campbell]

Or it may be that just you can't get through a whole episode without actually criticizing Keir Starmer.

[Rory Stewart]

It might be that too. Might be that too, yeah. Without doing my famous impression of Keir Starmer.

[Alistair Campbell]

Don't do it again. Don't do it again. Are we can if you want, but.

[Rory Stewart]

But anyway, thank you very much.

[Alistair Campbell]

See you soon. Take care.

[Rory Stewart]

Bye bye.

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Why did we really go to war with Iraq?

And did Saddam Hussein really have weapons of mass destruction?

I'm Gordon Carrera, national security Journalist.

And I'm David McCloskey, author and former CIA analyst. We are the hosts of the Rest Is Classified, and in our latest series, we are telling the true story of one of history's biggest intelligence failures. Iraq WMD.

In 2003, the US and UK told the world that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. But they were wrong.

This wasn't a simple lie. It was. It was something far more complicated, far more interesting, and far more dangerous.

Spies who believed their sources, politicians who wanted the public to believe in the threat, and a dictator who couldn't prove he'd already destroyed the weapons.

In this series, we go deep inside the CIA and MI6, go into the rooms where decisions were made, and look at the sources who fabricated the intelligence that took us to war.

The Iraq war reshaped the Middle east and permanently weakened public trust in governments and intelligence agencies, and its consequences are still playing out today.

Plus, in a Declassified Club exclusive, we are joined by three people who were at the heart of the decision to go to war. Former head of MI6 Richard Dearlove, Tony Blair's former communications director Alistair Campbell, and former acting head of the CIA, Michael Morrell.

So get the full story by listening to the Rest Is Classified and subscribing to the Declassified Club. Wherever you get your podcasts.