A Hermeneutic Analysis of Jones Road Beauty

Summary

The Review of Mess: A Hermeneutic Analysis of Jones Road Beauty

Episode Release Date: June 2, 2025

Hosts: Jessica DeFino & Emily Kirkpatrick

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Introduction

In this episode of The Review of Mess, hosts Jessica DeFino and Emily Kirkpatrick dive deep into the intricacies of the latest Met Gala and Cannes Film Festival, followed by a critical hermeneutic analysis of Jones Road Beauty's new campaign. Their candid discussions offer listeners an unfiltered perspective on contemporary trends in fashion and beauty, blending sharp critique with insightful commentary.

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Book Club Announcement

Early in the episode, Jessica and Emily excitedly announce their plans to launch a book club. Emily shares, “We've been figuring out ways to further enmesh our lives with one another... maybe we should expand it to include other people as well” [00:54]. This initiative aims to foster deeper discussions around theory and pop culture, enhancing their analytical approach to fashion and beauty.

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Month in Review: Met Gala

The duo begins their month’s review with an extensive critique of the Met Gala, focusing on this year’s theme: Super Fine Tailoring Black Style, inspired by Monica L. Miller’s book Slaves to Fashion: Black Dandyism and the Styling of the Black Diasporic Identity.

Key Points:

1. Theme Misalignment: Emily criticizes the disconnect between the Met Gala’s theme and the actual attire on the red carpet. She states, “they're given the easiest, like slam dunk theme and every year they somehow manage to fuck it up” [04:38].

2. Quiet Luxury Failures: The hosts highlight the underwhelming attempts at "quiet luxury," with outfits lacking personality and flair. For instance, Sofia Richie's Tommy Hilfiger white dress is deemed “pretty boring and unremarkable” [07:32].

3. Cultural Appropriation Concerns: Emily voices concerns over Kendall Jenner’s homage to black dandyism, questioning the adequacy of her representation: “It's kind of rude... especially given your history of racism” [11:31].

4. Notable Failures: Kim Kardashian’s repeated use of the same Chrome Hearts dress is criticized for its lack of innovation, with Emily mocking, “Someone called her dominatrix Carmen Sandiego on my Instagram” [16:09].

5. Celebratory Successes: Despite widespread disappointment, Lauryn Hill’s ensemble is praised for perfectly encapsulating black dandyism, embodying both high fashion and cultural significance [16:03 – 21:28].

Notable Quotes:

• Emily: “Why they can’t have something that nods to black dandyism but still gives you tailored for you” [07:32]
• Jessica: “You deploy those one or two points really well” [01:19]

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Month in Review: Cannes Film Festival

Transitioning from the Met Gala, Jessica and Emily delve into the Cannes Film Festival, critiquing its new and ambiguous dress codes.

Key Points:

1. Restrictive Dress Codes: Emily highlights bizarre rules like “no voluminous outfits with large trains” [31:57], questioning their relevance and implementation.

2. Gender-Specific Regulations: The hosts express frustration over the Cannes' peculiar focus on women's attire, suggesting a bias in enforcement and underlying misogynistic tendencies [32:05].

3. Lack of Emphasis on Film Artistry: They argue that the festival’s attempts to curb red carpet excesses detract from its primary focus on film, with Emily remarking, “Take the free PR where everyone mentions the movie” [28:00].

4. Celebrity Compliance and Resistance: From Halle Berry’s restricted gown to Julia Fox’s underreported outfit, Emily laments the festival’s inability to effectively manage celebrity fashion without stifling creativity [37:06 – 39:00].

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica: “And also, I have this suspicion that the cameramen... they need to focus on what details to focus on” [18:45]
• Emily: “We need to bring back the manicam” [18:56]

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Hermeneutic Analysis of Jones Road Beauty

The core of the episode features a critical analysis of Jones Road Beauty’s latest campaign for their tinted moisturizer, Just Enough.

Key Points:

1. Implicit Messaging: Jessica unpacks the problematic implications of the phrase “Just Enough,” suggesting it perpetuates a precarious balance between being too little and too much. She states, “just enough applies a not enough, like, on the precipice of being not enough” [39:36].

2. Contradictory Advice: The campaign’s slogan, “the quickest way to feel put together without looking like you've done anything,” is scrutinized for promoting minimalism in makeup while still enforcing standards of perfection [41:15].

3. Bobby Brown’s Influence: Despite Jones Road Beauty’s accolade in Time’s 100 for 2025, Jessica disputes the genuine positive impact of Bobby Brown, arguing that the brand continues to impose restrictive beauty norms under the guise of enhancement [44:34 – 44:51].

4. Product Critique: Emily shares a vehement negative review of the Just Enough moisturizer, describing it as “the worst products I’ve ever experienced” and highlighting its impractical formulation [46:19 – 48:10].

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica: “Enhancing what's already there. It's just such a mystification that means covering what’s not good enough” [43:48]
• Emily: “Don't buy into the Jones Road hype, everyone. It's a lie” [47:00]

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Interview Segment: Michaela Jamison on Protein and Male Beauty Standards

In a guest interview, Michaela Jamison of the Body Type newsletter discusses the rising trends of protein consumption and the evolving standards of male beauty.

Key Points:

1. Muscularity as a Trend: Michaela explores how celebs like Justin Bieber and Alexander Skarsgrd are pushing the boundaries of traditional masculinity through extreme muscularity, sparking both fascination and backlash.

2. Health vs. Aesthetics: The conversation delves into the fine line between healthy fitness and aesthetic-driven body obsession. Michaela emphasizes the importance of a balanced approach, noting, “If you're into or trying to get into strength training, you probably need more than you're getting” [82:03].

3. Impact on Mental Health: Both hosts and Michaela acknowledge the psychological toll of body image pressures, particularly how trends can lead to disordered behaviors despite the potential health benefits of strength training.

4. Commercial Influence: The discussion criticizes brands capitalizing on protein trends without providing substantial benefits, exemplified by the skepticism towards Khloe Kardashian’s Cloud Popcorn, which offers minimal protein for a premium price [89:08 – 90:55].

Notable Quotes:

• Michaela: “It is something that comes from a place of a hobby and a habit that I really like doing that makes me feel good” [82:16].
• Jessica: “Like, you can't be not enough, and you can't be too much. You have to be just enough” [39:30].

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Mess of the Month

The episode concludes with the "Mess of the Month" segment, where both hosts share personal anecdotes and humorous takes on their own insecurities.

1. Jessica’s Nostalgia for Barbie Fashion Designer: Emily reminisces about the 1996 CD-ROM game Barbie Fashion Designer, highlighting its impact on her early interest in fashion despite the limited resources: “I just wanted to make different outfits for her” [99:08 – 101:06].

2. Jessica’s Struggle with Ear Insecurities: Jessica vents about an Instagram ad for ear adhesives, revealing her deep-seated insecurity about her ears and critiquing how such products commodify personal flaws: “Your body is a medical issue” [103:22 – 107:26].

Notable Quotes:

• Emily: “Just let them have ears” [104:53].
• Jessica: “It's saying like you are your bodies, your flaws are your... your body is a medical issue” [104:54].

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Conclusion

Jessica and Emily wrap up the episode by reflecting on the complexities of beauty standards and the influence of pop culture on personal self-image. Their candid and often humorous exchanges provide a relatable and critical lens through which listeners can examine the often contradictory messages prevalent in the fashion and beauty industries.

Final Thoughts:

• Emily: “At least people are setting foot in the gym and learning maybe a little bit more about their bodies” [82:23].
• Jessica: “Bad marketing, apparently. Bad products” [48:17].

Listeners are encouraged to engage with the hosts' upcoming book club and stay tuned for more incisive discussions in future episodes.

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Notable Quotes Summary

• Jessica: “Enhancing what's already there. It's just such a mystification that means covering what's not good enough” [43:48]
• Emily: “Don't buy into the Jones Road hype, everyone. It's a lie” [47:00]
• Michaela: “It is something that comes from a place of a hobby and a habit that I really like doing that makes me feel good” [82:16]

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Further Resources

• Monica L. Miller’s book Slaves to Fashion: Black Dandyism and the Styling of the Black Diasporic Identity [03:07]
• Michaela Jamison’s Body Type newsletter on Substack

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For more insights and updates, visit jessicadefino.substack.com.

Transcript

[Jessica Defino]

Hello and welcome to the Review of Mess, a podcast dedicated to discussing the highs and lows of pop culture every month. I'm Jessica Defino. I write the newsletter the Review of Beauty.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I'm Emily Kirkpatrick. I write I heart Mess. Welcome back to the pod, everybody.

[Jessica Defino]

Welcome back.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

One year. Is it one year? I keep saying one year. It continues to be one year, almost one year, but I do think it's one year now.

[Jessica Defino]

Time is an illusion and it doesn't really matter, but it might be a year. And yeah, we have some exciting updates coming soon.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. Emily and I have been talking about starting a book club.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. We've been figuring out ways to further enmesh our lives with one another. And we're. And we're thinking about book club. I know a lot of people have ask me in the past about, like, what Jess and I read, which I always. My answer is kind of that I'm a pretend reader. I think people think that I read a lot more than I actually do. I try to be pretty literate, but I'm. I'm truly such an Internet addict that it squeezed out a lot of my.

[Jessica Defino]

I feel like you fake it well.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I fake it well. And, you know, I think I fake it well because I was reading voraciously as a child, like, up and through college, I was reading pretty much everything that existed. And so I think it's provided me a lot of material to coast on for a lot of my adult life.

[Jessica Defino]

I feel like I have the opposite problem where I read a ton and the Internet has destroyed my brain, so I have very little retention. Like, it's like one or two points from this, like, huge book that I read and loved. Will stick with me forever.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Sure.

[Jessica Defino]

And then it's just completely out of. Out of my mind, so.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, let me say you deploy those one or two points really well. Cause you do seem incredibly well read to me, and it seems like you're always reading something. But, yeah. Jess and I are also in our own own micro book club at the moment. I think maybe we've mentioned on the POD we're reading Ways of Seeing, and. Yeah, we just kind of realized how much we like to read theory and how helpful it is to our own thought and work. And so we thought, yeah, maybe we should. Yeah. Expand it to include other people as well. Cause I feel like whenever we have dialogues about this stuff, like, I learn so much more and I think so much more deeply about some really complicated ideas sometimes. So.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. And there's so much theory out there that's like, not directly about fashion and beauty, but when I'm reading it with my like broken beauty pilled brain, I'm like, oh my God. This really applies to everything that I think about all the time.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But yeah, yeah, I'm always, I'm always trying to apply like weird French lit theory to outfits and you do it so well. Thank you. So, yeah, I'm really looking for it. I'm excited we're going to launch that soon and we'll keep you all posted on when you can join us.

[Jessica Defino]

Should we, should we get into the month in review? Yeah, the Met Gala.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, let's. Let's talk about the only thing I've talked about for a month straight on every platform available to me. The Met Gala, everyone. Woo. For those who have somehow missed the fashion event of the season, it was based on. There's an exhibit at the Met this year called Super Fine Tailoring Black Style. It's based on Monica L. Miller's book, Slaves to Fashion, Black Dandyism and the Styling of the Black Diasporic Identity. And her publisher was actually kind enough to send me a copy of the book and I just started reading it and I highly recommend it if you get the chance. It's incredibly interesting history of just kind.

[Jessica Defino]

Of, oh, I want to read.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. Where this very specific black form of fashion identity spawns from and then like what it's become over time. And it's. And it's rooted in slavery. It's rooted literally in a racist prank, which I just didn't know anything about. Dandyism. I didn't know anything about. Yeah, all of this. And it's been fascinating to learn. She also was on the podcast, I believe it's called Dressed.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, yeah, I subscribe to that, but I haven't listened yet.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

They did a two part interview with her that I also highly recommend. If you just want to kind of hear some of the broad strokes about what's going on with this exhibit, I'll get a little more into kind of the details of it as I talk about two specific looks that I thought really encapsulated the trend. Um, but mostly, I mean, the Met, as always, is just like an incredible display of how bad celebrities are following the most basic loose trend that you can imagine. Like, they're given the easiest, like slam dunk theme and every year they somehow manage to fuck it up. And I just don't understand, is it.

[Jessica Defino]

Trying too hard or not trying enough? Like, are they getting in their head not trying enough? Okay.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Not. It's. It's literally never trying enough, and I don't know why. Like, last year, first of all, last year, the theme of the red carpet was Garden of Time. And so they all just wore florals. And I'm like, read the short story, which is not about flowers. It's about. No, it's actually a crazy. I don't know. Do you know that story? It was a crazy choice.

[Jessica Defino]

I remember reading about it last year, but as I've said, it's all. It's out of my mind now.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's an absolute. I mean, let's go back to last year's Met Gala for a second. But an absolutely insane choice of a theme for a red carpet, because basically the exhibit was Sleeping Beauties. And so it's like garments that are so old or fragile or delicate or whatever that they. They can only be. They can never be worn again. They can barely ever be exhibited again because they have to be, like, in controlled climates, like, padded. Like, all this archival work has to be done to preserve them for all of time. And so that was the theme of the exhibit. And then for the red carpet, for some reason, they chose this short story called Garden of Time, which, to my recollection is about, like, rich people attempting to, like, protect, like, a. A garden made out of crystal flowers from poor people who are, like, hammering down the doors outside. And it's kind of like the last vestige of this, like, ivory tower situation. They're trying to, like, preserve the beauty and the. The wealth and the.

[Jessica Defino]

That feels like fascinating choice, like, almost on the nose for a Met Gala.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's what I thought when I read it. I was like, are you. Well, like, do you really want people to, like, be making this connection so overtly? I don't know.

[Jessica Defino]

Luckily, no one did.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Luckily no one did. And they all just were, like, regular floral prints. Yeah. Anyway, so that's kind of the problem we always have at this event this year. Of course, what one should wear is something that nods to black dandyism, because this is always the fight people get in in fashion is like, well, that wasn't technically the theme of the red carpet. It's like, sure, but you know what exhibit you're celebrating, you know, what is, like, appropriate and, like, honors the real theme of the night, even if you're giving kind of this watered down version of it. So the watered down version was tailored for you, quote, tailored for you. So literally, if you wore something that fit your body, you were technically on theme. Like, Vogue is really trying to like soft. Give it to you. Yeah. On a silver platter. And they still really fucked it up in some crazy ways. Of course, I've written about, since the dawn of my newsletter, I've written about how much trouble celebrities have with tailoring it. It makes no sense to me how they can have so many garments that do not fit their body correctly. Employ one tailor, keep one tailor on staff. That's all I ask.

[Jessica Defino]

I feel like if I had money, that would be kind of my first, like luxury splash out would be like, I want to all of my pants to look good on me.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. I want everything to custom fit my specific body. Like I don't have to buy off the rack anymore. Like, I don't know, it's very weird. They're very bad at clothing fitting. So anyway, the theme was tailored for you and somehow they still fucked it up quite badly. I. Anyone who's read my many, many recaps of this red carpet knows that I think kind of the biggest failures of the night were the quiet luxury ladies.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh my God.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So I found them to be profoundly disappointing and honestly just kind of rud. And I don't know, I. I guess I'll get into it in a second. But I kind of go back and forth about some of their quote unquote symbolism they were using. Anyway, Sofia Richie, who's the queen of the quiet luxury movement, you know, wedding pinned a million times on Pinterest for the girls, she wore a Tommy Hilfiger white dress that again, perfectly tailored. So like, ultimately you can't say anything wrong with it. I found it pretty boring and unremarkable and I don't know, again, to me you're celebrating a night of black dandyism. Dandyism is so much about personality and flair and self expression and these kind of small details within something so beautifully tailored like that that like give people an insight and a clue to like who you are specifically. And these girls just had none of that. I thought Sofia Riches was the best. That said, she had some big bows on the back that I thought looked nice. Hailey Bieber. I don't know what the hell she was thinking. I genuinely don't understand the thought process in this selection. For those who didn't see her, she wore a Saint Laurent like tuxedo mini dress that looks like every Aritzia dress I've ever seen in my life. It looks like every dress Haley's ever worn in her life.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. For the last five years. Already been done to death.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Already been done to death. And then with and then with a pleaser mule.

[Jessica Defino]

Excitement of dandyism with a patent leather pleaser mule.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You want to really piss me off. You can't even make, like a good styling choice with something that boring. Like you couldn't get a funky shoe like, anything. A brooch. A brooch. In this economy, when all Cartier wants.

[Jessica Defino]

To make your company for a billion.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. You're a billionaire. Do better. My God. It was very disappointing. And. And I do think it's kind of rude.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

To be honest, this is something. Okay, so this is where I get into kind of the debate where I'm like, wondering what other people think, because Kendall Jenner was another one. She wore just kind of a gray suit jacket, a long gray maxi skirt. I thought it had some nice detailings, but ultimately, like, pretty boring. It was designed by Tori Shayju Dumi. And so the pushback I get a lot on Kendall's look is like, well, she's championing like a young black emerging designer. And so because of that, her look is on theme. And I don't. I get that. I do agree with that. I think that's a smart choice at least. It's certainly better than Saint Laurent. Like a white French man.

[Jessica Defino]

Right? Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Designing your. Designing your outfit for this night. But I don't know, part of me wonders, like, as a very famous white woman at this event, I. Part of me feels like your support of this night and your embodiment of it in your outfit needs to be much more overt.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like, I kind of, like, it's kind of weird that you're invited to begin with. Honestly. Like, I don't know. This should have been a night of like, black excellence in. In my opinion. And so, like, if you are allowed to attend this event, shouldn't you kind of be like, heavy handed in your dandyism? Heavy handed in your support of this emerging black designer? I don't know.

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I don't know. It's something I've been debating with myself.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. I don't know where I would land on that debate, but it's definitely something to think about. And it's just like, I think it's.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Also, especially as a Kar Jenner, like, just. Especially given yours history of racism. Because all of those girls have done overtly racist things.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes. And also just like culturally appropriating black style when it benefits them.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Exactly. And now suddenly there's. There's not even a nod to it except that, that silently, the designer behind your dress is a black woman. I don't know, maybe that's part of it.

[Jessica Defino]

Maybe anticipating any sort of bad pushback for having culturally appropriated in the past.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Sure. But you don't have to culturally appropriate to be like to honor a culture.

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

No. Which I feel like is their family's problem always. It's like they can't.

[Jessica Defino]

They literally don't know how to do it.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right.

[Jessica Defino]

They don't know how to do it.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So again, maybe I'm circling back around to this was fine. We can't be expecting them. It would be scary for. To get any deeper into this perhaps. I don't know. And then of course, Kendall's sisters were also massive disappointments. And again, I kind of thought they would skip this year, just given the figures that they are in pop culture and kind of how wrong this could all go for them. But it didn't go wrong. It was just incredibly boring. Kylie Jenner wore Ferragamo and it was terrible for some reason, even though Ferragamo also made EOA Dabiri's look, which was fabulous. Which was perfect. Exactly. And it took inspiration from her father and it was just like beautifully crafted. And I thought, like, how is Ferragamo, like swinging and missing like this. And honestly, every time Kylie goes to the Met Gala, this happens. She flops. Every single Met Gala. And I don't know why, because I, I genuinely don't mind most of her black tie attire. Like, it's not fantastic, but it's certainly not like remarkably bad. You know, she wears pretty, like basic Schiaparelli and whatever.

[Jessica Defino]

Honestly, I like can't even conjure up an image of a specific look. Like I have like an amalgamation in my mind of what she normally goes for.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I think that's the best possible outcome for what she's doing on the red carpet. But then for some reason at the Met Gala every year, she just like swings so hard and it gets so weird. Like, I don't know if you remember when she wore the off white wedding dress.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

With the backwards baseball cap. I was like, you're trying for something so high fashion and so convoluted and it's. And you're just not that girl. I don't know. It feels like a lot of that. So anyway, she wore this weird like sash with a brooch on it, some opera gloves, a big, A mesh corset per usual. Just like a cut out, a cutout mesh corset in an otherwise tweed dress. A little strange. And then of course, Kim, I have.

[Jessica Defino]

To say, I kind of love that Kim's like, inspiration was Lenny Kravitz.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, my God, this dress, man, is just like. She's trying. I don't know, she's trying something. So for those who don't know, Kim just finally fired her stylist that I've been begging her to fire for 10,000 years. Super Dani. That's what her Instagram handle is. So I always call her Super Dani. But she hired Jaleel Weaver, who is Rihanna's sometimes stylist, and, like, partnered with her on Fenty. The Fenty fashion line, not the Fenty line. And. Yeah, and I. So I. It's not surprising to me that a lot of people saw Kim's look that night and said, this looks like something Rihanna would wear. Because I do feel now, having seen a couple of the outfits they've worked on together, it does kind of feel like Jaleel is just taking something that Rihanna would really, really easily pull off and putting it on Kim and, like, failing to recognize that, like, one of them has the sauce and one of them does not. You know, like, Rihanna has the attitude that backs up outfits like that, and Kim is a completely blank canvas. So you have to kind of, like, build the attitude into the outfit for her. Like, she just can't carry big conceptual stuff like that. And so it's been interesting to see them working together, but I do, I do. I am at least hopeful that they're going to start figuring each other out and, like, find a middle ground, because I. At the very least, the outfits have been better. They're not good, but they're certainly not as bad as when she was with Dani. And so there is some progress there. Anyway, she wore a custom Chrome Hearts dress, and it is literally the same custom Chrome Hearts dress she's been wearing for a full calendar year now. There's very little difference. They added, like, a ruffle around the shoulder, like a flap around her arm, and that's kind of the only difference between the exact dress she's always worn from Chrome Hearts and that I think might be the only kind of dress Chrome Hearts knows how to make. Chrome Hearts is incredibly one note. Yeah, I mean, it's leather. The note is leather and crosses.

[Jessica Defino]

They've gotta look.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

They've gotta look. Someone called her dominatrix Carmen Sandiego on my Instagram, and I thought that was pretty funny.

[Jessica Defino]

That is appropriate.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And then I was also just kind of. I think it is kind of interesting, you know, that as Kim is, like, fully in her MAGA era, I don't know. I think it is kind of interesting that she's still kind of trying to do the same old 2010's Kim K. Tricks, because part of me wondered if she would lean into the conservatism and lean into the what we've talked about in this podcast. So much like the MAGA aesthetic of the women who run in that orbit and the women she surrounds herself with, like an Ivanka Trump or a Lauren Sanchez. Yeah, totally. Or a Lauren Sanchez, because I would say even Lauren Sanchez. I mean, comparable to a Kim in how she dresses, but I would say still kind of more in line with the conservative maga. And Lord knows they certainly have the MAGA face down. So it would just make sense to continue that process. But I guess we'll see as she continues to her rightward march into fascism. Yeah. And then I just want to quickly bring up my two favorite women's looks of the night, because obviously there was a lot of male dandies that I thought really nailed. Nailed the trend. But my. My two favorite women, I just want to bring up because I think they really got at the crux of what Monica L. Miller talks about in her book, which is kind of the rooting of this aesthetic in slavery. And so one was Dochi. Dochi was this year, for some reason in the Met Gala, always has hosts who are famous people. And then for this year, some reason, they also had a committee. Unclear what they. What their participation was in this event, but it literally had like 20 different famous people's names on it. And it feels like kind of just a way to confirm RSVPs, if you ask me, like, just to make sure all these people are going to show up for the event. But Dochi was one of those guests on the committee, and she wore a full Louis Vuitton look that I thought was really, really good. I think a lot of people didn't really understand it. But as part of that, she also wore an lv, like the monogram scarification prosthetic on her cheek.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. Controversial.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It was controversial and it was a detail that got lost, I think. You know what else? This is a tangent, but what else? I realized doing the red carpet livestream of the Met Gala is like, no one has ever needed more like detail punch in shots than this red carpet. Like, there was just infinite manicures, infinite makeup looks, shoes, jewelry that I was like, I would really like to see.

[Jessica Defino]

That, to see another close up.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I would really like a closeup of that. And there are just no close ups provided. And also, I don't know, you know, how they, like, canceled the manicam. I was like, we need to bring back the manicam.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I think we do.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

For this red carpet specifically, I need to see.

[Jessica Defino]

There were a lot of very intricate.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes. And, like, heavily symbolic manicures that I'm missing out on, and I have to wait for them to post something. It's just very annoying to me. And I also have this suspicion that the cameramen who work that red carpet aren't. They need, like, some fashion precursor. Like, they need to know who to focus on and what details to focus on or that people might be interested. It's very frustrating.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Anyway, anyway, so I missed Dochi's LV scarification until she posted it afterwards. But I just thought it's very interesting because it gets at this kind of tension at the core of black dandyism, where the. The scarification prosthetic is like, at once this homage to, like, an African beauty tradition. Right. And at the same time, she is branding herself with this luxury brands logo as though she herself is the luxury object.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And so part of Monica L. Miller's work in Slaves to Fashion is talking about. So the black dandyism formed under slavery when Europeans thought that it was. It became a trend amongst wealthy Europeans to own a slave who did no labor. And that is the sign of, like, ultimate leisure, ultimate wealth, is that you could afford to have this slave who does nothing but, like, and you dress them up in the, like, the biggest fop fashions of the era. So it is a racist joke being played on the slave that, like, look, they, like, think they're a European gentleman, but really they're enslaved. And so that is the origin of black dandyism. And. And they. Those slaves are luxury objects. Right. Like, they are an example of that white person's wealth. And so I thought it was. I don't know, I thought it was kind of a brilliant confluence of ideas. Is that, like, part of Black dandyism? So dandyism evolved into, like, this pure expression of black sartorial power over time. Once it's. Once it becomes. Once slavery ends in America specifically, and we have, like, the Harlem Renaissance, you know, and so. Yeah, I don't know. I thought it was interesting. It's like there's this freedom to celebrate your culture and your identity, but it is also conscribed by. Yeah, being. Being made inhuman almost.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. I think it's an interesting. I mean, I don't. I don't really know where I fall on it, but it definitely does. I mean, highlight that tension and that Question of, like, how subversive can aesthetics be?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes, like, totally.

[Jessica Defino]

And I don't know.

[C]

I don't know.

[Jessica Defino]

I think.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I don't know. But I think it's a good question to Ra and a particularly salient one for this. For this particular theme. And then just because people keep asking about me about it, I will also say the Dochi umbrella incident outside the Mark Hotel.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, yeah. What are your thoughts?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So for those who don't know, there was a little bit of a scuffle when Dochi was leaving the Mark Hotel. She had her, I guess her team. I don't even know if it's hotel employees or her team or whatever. Create this kind of barricade around her with. With a. Like a fold out. What do you even call that? A fold out wall. Like a hospital type of cubicle wall.

[Jessica Defino]

Right, right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I don't have the language for it, but like that and a bunch of umbrellas, so. Cause she wanted her outfit block so it would be like a big reveal on the. But instead it causes like huge commotion. She was like yelling at people to bring more umbrella. And it just was like a whole debacle. And my take is the outfit wasn't worth it.

[Jessica Defino]

I was gonna say this seems like the kind of diva behavior. Oh, I love you. Made me love, but it's got to.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I need the payoff.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes, yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You can't be in a picture. You can't act like that and then show up in a flat shoe and a short. You know what I mean? Like, when I first saw the video of her with all these umbrellas, I was like, oh, it must be some, like, incredibly elaborate, ornate, difficult to move in garment. Because that's also what I was thinking. It's like you don't want the video of you shuffling from the hotel awkwardly to the sprinter van. Right. Like, you want the still beautiful images of like the train going down the steps and you looking perfect, blah, blah, blah. And then the escorts, like, lifting your body up and moving you up the stairs. I don't know if people know that that happens.

[Jessica Defino]

I remember Tyla last year.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Tyla, exactly is the most famous recent example of that, where they just like literally pick these women up around the waist and like drop them off on the next step because they can't bend their legs to walk up the stairs at an event famous for its stairs.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Which I always find incredible. Anyway, so seeing that Dochi was wearing literally like a flat Mary Jane.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. You're perfectly mobile doll.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like, you can't. You can't be acting like that. You can't be behaving like that for. For this look, I at least thought there would be, like, a train of some sort that needed to be.

[Jessica Defino]

And no.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And put in the car. But no. So, yeah, that's my thoughts on the umbrella incident. And then I'll just say my other favorite women's look that I think got to the core again of the Slaves to Fashion book is Lauryn Hill. Lauryn Hill. This was her first Metochi's first Met Gala, too, I should say. And Lauryn Hill wore this Chaney Chan couture, like, butter yellow suit with this big sculptural shoulder ruffle. And overall, I mean, the look just like perfectly nailed dandyism to me. It's like it had flair. It was clearly high fashion, but it also had, like, you know, a beautiful tie. She carried her own Kelly bag, which I also thought was kind of a little. A nice little jab about how rich she is. Because you better believe Hermes does not lend out Birkin, right, For such an event. Hermes doesn't even dress anyone for this event. Oh, they wouldn't ever buy a table at the Met Gala. Hermes is not that foolish. They're saving that money. So she looked so just on. On base, she looked phenomenal. But then she also brought kind of like an assistant with her, this guy carrying a parasol over her as she walked down the red carpet. And I thought that too kind of gets at the tension of this. This aesthetic born out of slavery, right? Like, here you are, the black dandy with your own sort of. Obviously he's not a slave, but you know what I mean? Like your own sort of assistant, your own sort of. And I don't know, I thought that is kind of the tension inherent in this is like, who is free? Who is really free, Right? And also one of the most famous dandies in history is Julius Soubise, who Docchi says that she modeled her look after. I don't. I haven't really seen. I haven't personally really seen any reference that Julia Soubise wore something similar to what she was wearing, but I'll just take her word for it that that is some reference to him. Julius Soubise was the slave of some queen. I'm not remembering her name off the top of my head, but royalty, essentially. And so you can imagine it was the dandyism trend taken to, like, all new heights of racism and insane wealth. So one of the things Julius, a famous anecdote about him is that he had his own Slaves, and they were white men. So he would go for walks through the park, followed and catered upon by these white men. Once again, subverting racial hierarchies, subverting class standards. And it was always kind of this commentary on all of that. And also, Monica L. Miller says, like, that the point of the black dandy was to always make you question, like, who belongs where? And to reify kind of your own class and racial hierarchies while, like, making you wonder, like, who really who is in, who is out, like who belongs? Who gets access to this stuff? And so seeing Lauryn Hill with an escort of her own, I was reminded of this Julia Soubise story. And thinking there again is kind of that tension.

[Jessica Defino]

I need to read this book.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I know I'm truly only in the beginning. Most of that information I just told you is from listening to her talk. But the book is excellent as well. I highly recommend it. So that's the Met.

[Jessica Defino]

That's the Met. That's a wrap.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's the gala in a nutshell. And we can leave it.

[Jessica Defino]

Do you feel relieved to be done with the Met finally?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. I hope to never speak or think about the Met Gala ever again. We're good until next year.

[Jessica Defino]

Unfortunately. Now you do have to talk about Cannes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Of course I do. Because it's never enough. We went right from the Met Gala straight into the Cannes Film Festival. And anyone who's been reading my newsletter knows that the Cannes Film Festival has a bunch of stupid ass new rules about how you're allowed to dress and not dress only for women. It's only ever for women that they're making up these crazy ass rules that just are like, they're trying. Whatever, we'll get into it. They're trying to control what I don't think they need to control.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I don't think it's like, historically been enough of an issue.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's not an. It's a. All of these things to me, non issues. We don't have a lot of examples of them even happening in recent history. Like, to be so concerned to make a new rule about it. And also it just feels to me like, like it feels honestly like French people trying to like wrest back like the artistic merit of this event where they're like, oh, it's like the celebrities and the models are getting too much attention from this event. Like, we need to make it more about the films. And it's like, no, no, just take the free pr. Yeah, take the free PR where everyone mentions the movie that they were going to. In the, like, description where otherwise no one. You're not going to, like, convince a tabloid to start talking about, like, an esoteric independent film just because you took away the nudity on the red carpet. Like, you're not tricking them. So, like, why not just get. Get both. Get the serious journalism on the film and get the free press for all the celebrities and models showing up wearing almost nothing.

[Jessica Defino]

And is. Is fashion not its own art form that.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, you know. You know, nobody believes that.

[Jessica Defino]

Of course.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

No one thinks fashion is an art form, especially when celebrities are doing it.

[Jessica Defino]

Like, we need to focus on the art. Get the clothing out of here.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, get the clothing out of the conversation. It's. It's distracting us from the real art form. Anyway, so this year, the Cannes has always had weird rules like this. You know, perhaps people will remember that they have. They iconically have a no flats and sneakers rule that they claim they don't have, but they absolutely do have it. So cans has a charter, I guess, for those who don't know, that's, like, full of all these weird fake rules. And so they've never actually technically written that flats are not allowed. But it's certainly heavily implied. I mean, even in 2019, we have variety's former editor in chief tweeted that a security guard almost didn't let her into the premiere because she was wearing flats, and he only let her in because she threatened to post the video of him denying her to Variety's Instagram account. Oh, my God. And that's the only reason she got in.

[Jessica Defino]

Damn.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So it's certainly an unspoken rule, but they have since updated the language on their website, and now it says that elegant shoes and sandals with or without a heel are permitted, but they must be elegant. Yeah, they must be elegant. But, like, huge win for the ladies.

[Jessica Defino]

It's so funny. Like, how are they qualifying elegant?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You know, that's a great. That's a fantastic question. I feel like just at the whim of the security guard looking at them that day, if they feel it's elegant or not, they get to decide. But in the past, this type of, like, weird, prohibitive shoe rules have led to actors like Julia Roberts, Pamela Anderson, and Kristen Stewart all taking off their heels on the red carpet and walking barefoot, seemingly in protest for the rule. I'm never quite sure if they're doing it in protest, because they don't ever really say it's a protest. I'm like. Or did it just get so uncomfortable and unbearable that you had to Remove them.

[Jessica Defino]

It feels like it must be in protest because this is not happening on, like, any other red carpets where you are likely to be just as uncomfortable in your big shoes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I agree. I just wish there was a little more. A little more emphasis in the aftermath of doing this. I will say. In 2017, Kristen Stewart told the Hollywood Reporter, if you're not asking guys to wear heels and a dress, you cannot ask me either, which I think is the right attitude.

[Jessica Defino]

Agree.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

They also cans has a no big bags rule, which I think might be the only reasonable one that they have.

[Jessica Defino]

It's just like, that's kind of a rule everywhere.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Same, like, concert rules. Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

Can't even go to, like, Goodwill. They'll.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

They'll be like, yeah, when I go shopping. I'm used to that rule at every store I've ever entered in New York City, so I think that's probably fine. But anyway, their new one is they updated their charter this year to, say, voluminous outfits, in particular holes with a large train that hinder the proper flow of traffic or guests and complicate seating in the grand theater Lumiere are not allowed. And that is, like. So it's both weirdly specific and completely vague. Voluminous outfit.

[Jessica Defino]

Mm. And it feels so of the moment, because volume is like. Is the moment right now, as you've.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Been saying, all anyone is doing is volume. So, like, what are we qualifying as a voluminous outfit? And that could take a lot of different forms.

[Jessica Defino]

I kind of, like, want you to do, like, an interview series with security guards from red carpets who have to make these final judgments of, like, yeah, pass, fail or something.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I mean, judging by the security guard from last year's Cannes Film Festival, I feel like we'll get in a fistfight by the end of that conversation. She was aggressive.

[Jessica Defino]

That was wild.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But. But again, I feel like this whole rule is a direct response to that security guard from last year getting into, like, physical alterations with various famous women. I would also like to note various famous women of color. I. I don't think that's an accident. As much as the Cannes authorities would like to say that it is obvious. I felt it was quite obvious last year, and it feels like this is absolutely just a punishment. Specifically, I don't know if people remember, but there was another quote. So a rep from the Cannes Film Festival told the Hollywood Reporter that the objective of these new rules is, quote, not to regulate attire per se, but to prohibit full nudity on the carpet in accordance with the festival's framework. In French law. And so, like, one, I've never seen full nudity on the Cannes Film Festival red carpet. I've seen nipples.

[Jessica Defino]

I've seen some nipples.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

This is the south of France.

[Jessica Defino]

I've probably seen butt, you know, this.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Is the south of France. I could turn around from the red carpet and see a nipple. You know what I mean? Like, what are we, what are we regulating here? And to say that this isn't regulating attire, what is it doing? What is it then? It's absolutely regulating attire. And you're trying to prohibit something that's never happened. And so to me, it feels like a direct response to one Bianca Sensori at the Grammys. Like, they're trying to prevent that from happening, but it's like no one was ever trying to do that at this event. Bianca certainly is invited to camp. Like, you're right, it's a non problem.

[Jessica Defino]

No. Yeah, she's not gonna be there.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And then this also feels to me like a direct response to the actress. I'm not gonna say her name right. Massiel Tavares, who is one of the women who got in a physical altercation with the security guard last year because she had like this epic 50 foot train that had this like very kind of scary portrait of Jesus painted on that she kept trying to unfurl. And they wait, why do I not unfurl for this? I don't know. It was huge for me. It was a big event in my. In my mind, in my life, because it was nuts. And also because the Jesus had like literally nothing to do with the film that she was promoting. She just like, feels strongly about Jesus. Yeah, she just loves the Lord, I guess. And they were actively trying to like, not have her unfurl this on the red carpet. And they were saying that it was because there was like, time. They're always saying the same thing. It's like time issues, this flow of traffic issues. And it's like, okay, I do feel like you just didn't want the big picture of Jesus on your stairs at the film event, which is fair enough. But also you. Your event famously has the stairs. It's like the Mecca. Your event famously has the stairs. And you don't.

[Jessica Defino]

You've created the conditions for people to like, choose outfits that will look incredible laid out on a giant staircase.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes.

[Jessica Defino]

And you can't fault them.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You let them have it. And also it's like, that's the photo op, you know what I mean? Like that of anywhere on this red carpet that you've created the beautiful photo OP is on the stairs. And that's where they don't want them to stop at all.

[C]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Why?

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Why have you set it up this way?

[Jessica Defino]

A problem of your own making.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's a completely. A problem of their own making that they're now trying to, like, legislate away. And it. It's just becoming weirder. I genuinely don't understand it.

[Jessica Defino]

Which again, is not even a problem because, like. Like you mentioned, like, this is where the Cannes press comes from. Like.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jessica Defino]

Like, especially the nudity for you.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Especially the nudity is incredibly good for them. That is, like, the only time you're seeing the red carpet from this event.

[Jessica Defino]

You know, weeks ago, leading up to these red carp carpet events, there was so much buzz of, like, what's Bella Hadid gonna wear? The Phoenix.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes. And who's always, like, half naked at this event? And that's part of the intrigue that.

[Jessica Defino]

Is the first and some of the only things I've heard about.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes, Ken.

[Jessica Defino]

This year.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And the fashion is also famous for inviting supermodels.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

What do supermodels do but show up half Nate? Like, why do you even want them there? Because, again, they're certainly not there for the film arts. You know what I mean? Like, they're there as jewelry brand ambassadors, quite literally. They are there to wear multimillion dollar diamonds because they are sponsored and they are the faces of big jewelry brands. And that is why they're invited to Cannes. And so they need to get attention for the brand that they're the face of. And the way that they do that is by dressing in risque fashions. And that's what Cannes is famous for.

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I just don't understand why they're doing this.

[Jessica Defino]

Self sabotage.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's self sabotage. And I think then the final straw for me was Halle Berry wasn't allowed to wear this Gaurav Gupta gown that she was planning to wear the opening night because they had a train. And then she later wore it to, like, a Cannes adjacent event. Do people know Cannes has, like, weird parties? And then those. Those red carpets don't have the Cannes rules, so you can wear the stuff that you wanted to wear. So she went to some Cannes party and she finally wore the Gaurav Gupta gown. And when I saw it, this could not have been a smaller train.

[Jessica Defino]

This was a small train. I did see this train.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It was crazy small.

[Jessica Defino]

It was very small.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It, like, huddled a little bit around her feet. I. Maximum. Maximum 3ft.

[Jessica Defino]

It would not have impeded the flow of traffic. Not. Yeah, no.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It couldn't have possibly impeded the flow of traffic. There's not enough fabric there to have done anything. And the fact that they told her she. Halle Berry, also like, one of the most famous women on planet Earth. Like, what do you mean?

[Jessica Defino]

Right?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And why do you. Why do you care? Also is just. What about like, just the. The intense scrutiny. Oh, these ladies outfits. And also like, I don't know, start policing men a little bit. If you have to do this, tell them to put on heels. I don't know. Let's make a real heels only rule.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my gosh, that would be so funny.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Heels only on this red carpet.

[Jessica Defino]

I love that.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And that's how you get attention. That's how you flip the whole narrative. You can make all these rules, shutting down all the stuff women do that you don't like. But if you did something a little bit funky and wild like that, forcing.

[Jessica Defino]

The men to do what women are.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Forced to do, forcing super famous men into high heels for your red carpet. I'm looking, I'm paying attention. Again, just a free marketing idea for you, as always.

[Jessica Defino]

Again. Again, you have to.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I gotta pay walls. I know. I don't realize it until I say it out loud. And then I'm like, oh, I could have. I could have charged for that idea, actually.

[Jessica Defino]

I love that.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

We've gotta make it happen next year. What do I. I wanna talk about Jones Road Beauty, please.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Do I. And when you're ready, I'd also like to go the off on Jones Road.

[Jessica Defino]

I cannot wait to hear what you have to say. But first, I'll talk about Jones Road's new campaign for their foundation. It's a. It's a tinted moisturizer or something that's called Just Enough. And so Jones Road, first of all, is owned by Bobby Brown. Bobby Brown is no longer affiliated with Bobby Brown Makeup. She's like, very famous makeup artist from, you know, the 90s. Every. Everyone knows Bobby Brown.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I grew up with Bobby Brown.

[Jessica Defino]

We all did. I had. I definitely had her books. Like, there were so many books on, like, how to do makeup that I. I read all the time. So anyway, okay. New tinted moisturizer is called Just Enough. And for some reason, this campaign just like, really bothers me. And I wanted to do like a hermeneutic analysis to interpret like, what is. What are we saying when we say Just Enough?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, it seems like a key language like that went through focus groups. You know what I mean?

[Jessica Defino]

And there's so much being said that is not Being said out loud with just enough. Like, just enough applies a not enough, like, on the precipice of being not enough. And it also implies too much.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Totally. And God knows a woman never wants to be too much.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, she does. She can't be not enough, and she can't be too much. You have to be just enough. And there is just so much being communicated in this campaign, like, in the background. So. Yeah, and I think it's important to talk about because, like, this is how we absorb lessons of beauty culture is, like, very often in what's not being said.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I think also the stuff that, like, seems very innocuous on its surface actually, like, holds a lot of, like, meaning and is imparting a lot of ideas about standards.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, it's, like, often the most harmful. I think. So. Okay. If we're looking at the language of the just enough tinted moisturizer, we can, like, ascertain what they're saying. Not enough and too much is. So this quote effectively conceals and evens the complexion, implying that, like, an unconcealed, uneven complexion is not enough. Like, you can't be doing that. It says it conceals redness, evens out skin tone with light coverage. It's the quickest way to feel put together without looking like you've done anything. So there we have, like, redness and uneven tone are not enough. Medium or heavy coverage. And anything that takes time to apply is too much. Not being put together not enough. But looking like you've put time into being put together is too much.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's a fine line. It's a real difficult tightrope to walk.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. And then, like, the product copy comes with. With Bobbi's personal tip. So her personal tip is it evens out your skin. It covers discoloration and redness, and as a result, you look like you're not wearing anything at all.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's not a tip.

[Jessica Defino]

That's not a tip.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

First of all, nothing about that is a tip.

[Jessica Defino]

And then it, like, it's just very clear. So looking like you're wearing something is too much, but not wearing something is not enough.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And this happens to strike the perfect middle ground. You wouldn't.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my God. Of course. And I think, like, what annoys me so much is that Bobby Brow is praised a lot in the media for, like, supposedly helping women feel comfortable in their bodies and better natural.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Natural beauty.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes. There's, like, a very positive connotation about the way that she has impacted beauty culture. And I just, like, don't think that's real. I just like don't think that's what's happening here. I think she's just as much a part of making feel bad about themselves as any other beauty brand. And it feels very like ignoring like very obvious messages about women's worth and enoughness to imply that this is like freeing in some way.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Totally.

[Jessica Defino]

And it's also like this campaign comes on the heels of her being named one of the time. 100 for 2025 for Jones Road. For Jones Road.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh man, I'm about to really rip this brand new asshole.

[Jessica Defino]

I know, I know. I'm so excited. Well, here's what they said in her time profile, like last month, she didn't just change how people wear makeup, she changed how they see themselves. When Bobby came into the game, she made it clear that beauty wasn't about excess or perfection. It was about enhancing what's already there.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Just enough.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. And I just like, what I want to propose is that like, okay, Bobby Brown may indeed have changed, like how people see themselves, but not necessarily for the better. Like there are so many rules and regulations implied in what she's selling and like, like it feels like this is almost a neurotic fixation that she's encouraging to like ride this line between not enough and too much by being just enough. Like, which often involves a lot more thought and more money and more labor to look as if you're not trying at all. And like, I just hate the language of enhancement. Like enhancing what's already there. It's just such a mystification that means covering the b.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like making right that the original isn't enough. It's not good enough.

[Jessica Defino]

Exactly.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So also it kind of feels like she's almost trading on this reputation as being kind of the natural beauty making women feel empowered, blah, blah, blah, to do kind of a little bit more nefarious beauty stand stuff, if that makes sense.

[Jessica Defino]

I completely agree. I think she's like so established in the industry as being this champion of natural beauty, which first of all, there's so much to unpack there. Why is natural beauty better than, you know, the artificial beauty that it implies as its opposite? Like, I often think this idea of natural beauty, like you said, is like a little bit more like insidious and sends like just as harmful of a message.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, because it implies that some people don't have to work for this. Like, some people just are naturally gifted with something that you can never fake. But there is some, like, you know, inherent true beauty or something. Like it isn't all just, like, a construction and a standard. That's, like, fictional, right?

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. And all this for products that apparently are. Are. I've not tried them. Tell me, tell me.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Now's my time to shine. Jones Road sucks ass. Do not buy it. It is one of the worst products I've ever experienced in my entire life. I am baffled by what's going on. I don't know. I. There were two that my mother had, and I tried them because the hype. And I was like, okay, well, they're right here. I just might as well see. I have never been angrier. I. One was like, the miracle bomb or something. I don't know much hyped. It's like a light pink color, and then the other one was a muddy brown, and I didn't even get it to the muddy brown one because I was in the light pink one and already losing my mind at how bad it is. It's just. First of all, it's so thick. It is so fraily. Yes. And it is just like a weird, solid block. It doesn't. When you put it on your skin, you feel like something is sitting on top of your skin and you've done, like, a weird mask. I. I can't express to you as someone who's tried a million beauty products, I've never hated something so much. So immediately. And then also, I don't understand. I'm really getting ramped up. And then I don't understand. It's like. Seems like it's so marketed towards, like, an older generation, like an older woman as, like, this subtle natural beauty. Whatever. It is so thick. There is no way. It is not. Not sitting heavily in every, like, line and wrinkle in your face. And then also, it is full of iridescent glitter. And I'm like, literally, the last thing an older woman wants is a bunch of iridescent glitter smeared all over. It's the last thing I want.

[Jessica Defino]

Like, my mom's least favorite thing. She, like, everything she buys has, like, Micah in it. It's like, this glowy stuff, and she's like, I don't want this. It's so old. I just want to look.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It settles in your lines and wrinkles. My mom always says the same thing, and I'm like, why would you put that in a product? I don't even have lines and wrinkles. I don't want that. I don't want my face, like, glimmering and glowing with weir sparkles, even if.

[Jessica Defino]

It didn't settle in lines and wrinkles or even if you don't care about accentuating lines and wrinkles. Like, I think there are a limited number of women, once you get older who want to be like, glittery.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes.

[Jessica Defino]

Like, it's annoying.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Understand it. And the formulation of the balm is just disgusting to me. I can't emphasize this enough. It is so gross. Don't do it. Don't waste your money.

[Jessica Defino]

It sounds like this product might be too much.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's. Yeah, it's. It. It is not just enough. It is way too much in every. In every dimension. I hate it. But. But the world loves it. And I don't understand. I would love to hear from a true believer in Jones Road, because I've never met one.

[Jessica Defino]

Does the world love it? Or. I don't know, like, are they really good at marketing?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I think they're maybe just really good at marketing because I don't actually know anyone using Jones. I just have this general positive, like this vibe that it's giving off that people love this shit. And I. And then. So again, that's why I even tried to use the product to begin with. Cause I was like, oh, people love this stuff. Maybe it would be like. Like something I would enjoy.

[Jessica Defino]

This is like paradoxically making me want to order some Jones Road to dry.

[C]

Because I'll send you my mouse.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'll send you my mom's, cuz she won't touch it. And it's like truly two full jars that she will not use. And she tried to give it to my oldest sister and my old sister.

[Jessica Defino]

Nobody wants it.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

My oldest sister said, hell no. And then I was like, what's going on with stuff? And I said, oh, hell no. I will not be using this. Yeah, so I'll send you. I'll ask her if she still has it or if she tossed it.

[Jessica Defino]

This is great. This is great. Toss.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'll send it to you.

[Jessica Defino]

Okay. Amazing. I'm so happy to know this now.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. Don't. Don't buy into the Jones Road hype, everyone. It's a lie.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. Bad marketing, apparently. Bad products.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's my hot take.

[Jessica Defino]

Mine too. Yeah, that. That's it for me on Jones Road, my little rant.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, I would like to talk. I have just two quick little points that I just thought were fun that I would. I would like to add to the conversation. And one is that I know that this is a little bit of hopeful thinking on my part, but there does feel like menswear, famous men's menswear is like slowly edging into something a little more Genderqueer and a little. Yeah, I don't know. Blending the boundaries a little bit more in a way that feels more sustainable and more authentic, I think, than kind of some of the ways we've seen in the past where it's like. Like, you know, Christian Siriano will put Darren Criss in a ball gown.

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And it's like, okay, that's an extreme right. That's not really. You can't really adapt that to, like, everyday life or, like.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. And it's not necessarily a challenge of masculinity or femininity. It's like, this is interesting because a masculine body is wearing a feminine thing. It's not like. It's not a, like, dissolution of those boundaries at all.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes. I think that's a great way of putting it. Whereas, as these two examples I'm about to give you, I think do a better job of kind of subverting masculinity slightly or, like, feminizing masculinity, traditional masculinity slightly in a way that I think is more intriguing. One kind of came out of left field. I did not see it coming, which is that Justin Bieber has been wearing the biggest pants I've ever seen in my life. And I don't just mean, like, width. I mean length. Like, they are trailing, like, feet behind him. He has to lift them up in order to walk about. And so I. I was reporting on those for a couple of my newsletters because I've just always loved the scale of Bieber's pants. And he. Yeah, he posted this image of himself. He's recording his album in Iceland, where he had to, like, truly gather up giant handfuls of pant in his hands so that he could, like, take a step through a field. And he posted it on Instagram, and then he later shared a viral tweet to his Instagram stories. And the viral tweet said, holding my huge baggy pants like a princess in a gown when I walk down the stairs. And he wrote over it, I finally feel seen. Lmao. Oh. And there was something about that. It, like, unlocked something in my brain. Yes. Where I was like, oh, my God. Like, I didn't even catch that kind of aspect of it. And there is something so sweet about that. Like, obviously, I want him to just wear the princess gown. Like, let's skip the middle step. But, like, I don't know, even kind of that shift in, like, what aesthetically he's doing, I think is kind of powerful.

[Jessica Defino]

It does feel powerful, and it feels. I don't know if embodied is the right word for it, but it's about the feeling of wearing the garment rather than necessarily the garment itself. Aesthetic of the garment itself.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Totally.

[Jessica Defino]

Which I really like for him and.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That he just like wants to feel like a princess going downstairs. And I totally get that. We've all had that impulse at times.

[Jessica Defino]

You know, whomst among us.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And if he's recreating that in these absolutely enormous, insane pants that he can't move in, I think that's like kind of beautiful. And it does feel like again, a micro step in the right direction, but. But something for sure. And I felt similarly about Alexander Skarsgrd on his. His current press tour for his new show Murderbot. Obviously not all the outfits he's wearing, but some of the outfits he's wearing have again, kind of. They feel like they're kind of pressing on that line. Specifically, he wore this Calvin Klein collection overcoat I wrote about in my newsletter. I said it looks very ministerial. It's very like clergy.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Remember, it's like black. It's extremely structured. But it's like, it could be an overcoat. It could just as easily be like a form fitting dress. There is literally no difference between the two. And I think that maybe is kind of the key into getting into this kind of unisex fashion space. Right. It's like we can find these overlaps, we can find these parallels. Like, you can use different words for it, but like, like the silhouette.

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

The construction itself is identical.

[Jessica Defino]

Well, what it's reminding me of is like this kind of argument from years ago of about androgyny, which I feel like we've lost this word. I feel like nobody talks about androgynous anymore, like when we're talking about the masculine feminine blend. But there was kind of. I can't remember where it came up, but there was this argument about androgynous dressing and how it's always. That word is always assigned to women who wear like, suits. We rarely see it in the other direction where men are wearing like more feminine garments in their own way.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, right. Because I feel like usually when they're wearing feminine garments, they're wearing it in a feminine way.

[Jessica Defino]

Exactly.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's not adapted to like a different aesthetic and a different.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. And both of these examples of Justin Bieber and Alexander Skarsgrd feel very androgynous in that.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

In that same complimentary way.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Totally. And then there was just another outfit. This is like, like, I don't know, it's not even an Androgynous outfit just so much as it specifically reminded me of outfits that Emma Corn and Kristen Stewart have worn in the past. Like, I think it's. I think they may have worn this exact outfit. He wore this pair of, like, shorty shorts, like, very Paul Mescal shorty shorts with, like, socks and loafers to this morning talk show. And I just swear to God.

[Jessica Defino]

Cute.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Both Emma and Kristen have worn exactly that. And, yeah, I don't know, it felt like. Like some sort of slight feminization to a masculine silhouette. And also, I think it's notable that Skarsgrd is working with the stylist Harry Lambert on this tour. And Harry Lambert is iconically Harry Styles stylist and responsible for all of the Harry Styles, like, wearing skirts and dresses thing.

[Jessica Defino]

This makes sense.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. So I think it all adds up, but I don't know, it's just very. A little micro trend I've noticed. That I just think is a very interesting thought experiment, honestly. And I'm interested to see kind of how it develops. And it feels a lot more hopeful to me than just. Yeah, like a full ugly ball gown skirt.

[Jessica Defino]

Mm, agree. Yeah. I love that.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And then just the one other thing that I thought was kind of exciting this month is that we got our first foray into period outrage bait fashion.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Thanks to Julia Fox, of course. She attended the Mien event, which Jess can talk more about as a skincare event that she went to, and she wore this outfit that actually for Julia was, like, really good. Yeah, a really good outfit. It was like a white T shirt with a white skirt that she pulled up and had tucked into her belt. So it left the white thong underneath, like, fully exposed. And. And she had dyed the white thong on the bottom red to look like blood. And I was actually pretty shocked by mainstream media, like, not talking about this outfit at all.

[Jessica Defino]

I know. Is it, like, is it too taboo to even.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I think so.

[Jessica Defino]

Wow.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Because part of me wonders, I mean, my, like, having worked at every media corporation brain wonders if you can even put a picture like that on the homepage.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Maybe it's, like, too triggering for the viewer, which is why, because we already. I remember just being at work having this debate over nipples because it used to be, like, editorial practice that we would blur out all visible nipples.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And then it got to this point where we had to, like, have these conversations.

[Jessica Defino]

Too many nips.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It was literally too many nipples. And we also had to have a conversation about, like, do people even care? Like, is this something that needs to Be censored. Like, is it or is it something we can show? And most websites at this point have. Have landed on the side of we can show it. Yeah, there's very few that still. I mean, the Daily Mail blurs everything out, but they're very conservative. But. Yeah. So I. Part of me wondered if with the. Even with the fake blood, if it was, like, too much and that's why we didn't cover it. But it seemed like a crazy rage bait opportunity for everyone to miss out on. And just, like, I'm surprised that people haven't done this sooner. It seems like such an obvious next step. Like, when everything taboo is, like, out the window, let's get into, like, bodily stuff, you know? Let's get into blood. My only notes for Julia was, I think for maximum outrage, you kind of have to push that aesthetic in one of two directions. Like, you either need to go full conceptual glam with it and, like, create some sort of, like, beaded sequined blood stain.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You know, like, it's fully integrated into the garment as like, a really high end, high conceptual element of outrage. Or I think she should have just actually bled.

[Jessica Defino]

It's gotta be free bleeding.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's gotta be real free bleeding. That's happening live on the red carpet. Because I don't really like this middle ground of fake blood.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. Okay, that is my thought. Like, I thought this outfit, like, looked cool when I saw the picture, but over time, it just started to bother me, and I actually think it's like, like perfect for the event. Like a perfect encapsulation of the mien ethos, which Mi Anne says it's like skincare for everyday eroticism.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

But, like, what's erotic is the product. So it's like this outfit that Julia's wearing, like, it looks messy and provocative and of the body, but it's actually like a meticulously curated performance of those things created through products rather than with the body, you know?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

So it did feel very appropriate for the event it was part of. But, yeah. Still bothers me on some level.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I think free bleeding on a red carpet is like a multi million dollar idea. Personally, just in terms of coverage would be amazing.

[Jessica Defino]

I'm. I'm a proponent of free bleeding, I think.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, why not?

[Jessica Defino]

We gotta get into that.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. I just don't want to do the laundry, you know?

[Jessica Defino]

No, I mean, I feel I. You know, I end up having to do the laundry anyway.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's true. That's a good point.

[Jessica Defino]

And, you know, I'm an Accidental icon. Because I'm bleeding through everything every time I leave the house.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I hear you.

[Jessica Defino]

I just need to put it on display and get in the making.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, you start leveraging that for your own benefit.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. Which would be kind of a gimmick. Which leads me into my next topic.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, gorgeous segue.

[Jessica Defino]

Thank you. Thank you. Okay, I can't stop thinking about this new. There's a new Lola V commercial. Lola V, by the way, is Jennifer Aniston's hair care brand.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I will. I will say in reverse, I like Lola B.

[Jessica Defino]

You do?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I like their products.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, okay. Interesting. Very interesting. I've not yet.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Jones Road.

[Jessica Defino]

Okay. All right. Okay. Something to consider. Well, okay.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Not that. To be clear, not that I've ever paid for the. I don't pay for beauty product. When people give me. When people give me samples, I will use them.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That is really how I find out these things.

[Jessica Defino]

I actually need a new shampoo conditioner. I've been using the same one for, like, years. And recently feel my hair has been, like, greasier than usual.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So Lola V is capturing you.

[Jessica Defino]

Maybe this no gimmicks commercial will get me and I'll explain why it is so powerful. So, anyway, there's this new commercial for Jennifer Aniston's haircare brand, Lola V. And the concept is no gimmicks. Like, the commercial shows her in a meeting with her marketing team, and they present this, like, very gimmicky commercial of people dressed up in these, like, hairy suits. And she's like, we don't need a gimmick like this. Like, we're no gimmicks. We're just beautiful hair. Like, Lola V just works. Works. And so, yeah, the campaign tagline is like, no gimmicks, just beautiful hair.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But it's a commercial, but it's okay.

[Jessica Defino]

So there are two levels to this, I think. First of all, no gimmicks. Like, is a marketing gimmick in and.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Of itself, of course. Of course.

[Jessica Defino]

But what I find more interesting is the idea that the Lola V products themselves are a kind of gimmick, if you get down to, like, the definition of gimmicks, which I have been thinking about a lot lately because I took this course at the Brooklyn Institute for social research on C.N. nye, who wrote this book called the Theory of the Gimmick. And according to her, a gimmick is an entirely capitalistic aesthetic. And she defines gimmicks as a labor saving device that abbreviates work and time, and that's what these products are like. The implied promise of Lolavie is that the shampoo and conditioner will give the user hair. Like, Jennifer Aniston.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right.

[Jessica Defino]

And Jennifer Aniston's hair is famously the product of, like, quite a lot of work time and investment, like, you know, labor coming out of her follicles. You know, it's like the product of a lot of expensive hair coloring and haircuts and product use and collaborations with hairstylists and colorists. And, like, even in this commercial, her hair has surely been worked on for hours in advance of filming.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's what I was thinking when you said the no gimmicks thing. I'm like, well, but, like, it's a commercial. Like, she's been prepared to be on screen by professional. Like, that is the gimmick. Like, you're selling me that. That's, like, really how her hair looks all the time when she wakes up in the morning. Like, it obviously doesn't.

[Jessica Defino]

And the idea that her hair looks like this because of Lola V products when she has been known for her hair since, you know, decades before Lola V existed. So, yeah, the products themselves are gimmicks that are meant to save the user the time and labor that Jennifer Aniston has put into her hair, which I think is funny, but, like, okay, so here's the other thing about gimmicks that I find so fascinating. It's like, of course the average consumer knows this. Like, nobody is looking at this commercial and thinking, like, wow, it's just the shampoo and conditioner.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, it's really working.

[Jessica Defino]

We know that this is, like, all artifice, and that is also part of what makes it a gimmick. So Sian Nye says that a gimmick is both a form that we marvel at and we distrust. Like, there has to be this element of distrust in order for us to, like, clock it as a gimmick.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's really interesting.

[Jessica Defino]

And what's even more interesting, and the more I think about it, the more I'm like, oh, my God, this is like, this explains everything about beauty culture. The distrust doesn't make us less likely to buy into the gimmick, so it doesn't make us less likely to use the product, even if we know in our head, like, oh, she's not using that. Like, this is not the result. In the book, she has this whole section on what she calls, like. I think they're called illusions without owners. And she, like, astrology is an example of this. I also think, like, no makeup. Makeup is an example of this. So it's like these concepts that you personally know. Think of other people believing in them, but you don't believe in them. You believe you know better. She uses, like, this quote about knowing better.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like, you're the savvy customer.

[Jessica Defino]

You're the savvy customer. And because you know better, you can allow yourself to indulge in the illusion.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Wow.

[Jessica Defino]

You're reading your horoscope every day. You're thinking about it. It might even guide some of your choices or your feelings. But because I know better, it's why I can allow myself to indulge in this thing.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Wow. That really explains all of advertising. So crazy. It explains everything. That's so crazy.

[Jessica Defino]

And it, like, actually increases the power that the gimmick or the illusion has over us because we continue to allow ourselves to buy into it despite knowing better. Because we know better.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

Like, not knowing better. Probably you wouldn't be as compelled.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Sure.

[Jessica Defino]

But because you see yourself as somehow being above this idea, you're like, well, I can indulge in this, and it actually doesn't mean that much, or it doesn't say much about me, or I'm not an astrology girl. Or in the example of, like, no makeup. Makeup, it's like, well, I. I'm above the artifice of beauty. This is just like a little here and there. Like, you know, that's very interesting. I know. This book is so good.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. We'll have to link it in the show notes.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. I'm not finished with it completely yet.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But perhaps a future book club offering.

[Jessica Defino]

Perhaps a future book club offering. I would love to do, like, a close reading of this commercial with a chapter of Theory of the gimmick, because I love that it's so of the moment. But. Yeah. So I guess where I land is, like, we all know Jennifer Aniston's not using this shampoo and conditioner to get her. Look, we know that her hair in the commercial is not a result of this. And because we know that, we can say, yeah, maybe I want to try those products anyway.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Wow.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

This is only tangentially related, but are you familiar with the Jennifer Aniston is. Is, like, very dry phenomenon?

[Jessica Defino]

No. What is.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You don't know all. Every product that she endorses or creates has to do with, like, wetness, hydration, Vitamin, vitamin. Water.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. Lola V also, when it first launched, was about, like, hydrating dry hair.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my God.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'm sure there are other ones. Those are just the ones that come to the top of mind. But there's always been, like, a running joke on the Internet that all. She must be just unbelievably dry, because all of her products are about, oh, she had a. Eye drops.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh. Oh, my God.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

She was endorsing eye drops that, like, lubricated your eyeballs.

[Jessica Defino]

Wow.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I just love that. That's, like, the running theme of all of her ads is she only takes one type of ad, and it's like, make you. You wet.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. She loves wetness.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And it also always reminds me of Zoolander with that commercial he does where it's like, water is the essence of moisture.

[Jessica Defino]

Moisture is the essence of wetness.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

Wow.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's Jennifer Aniston.

[Jessica Defino]

That's her. I love that. Well, let's. Let's pivot from. From wetness to. To protein. I mean, that's not a good transition.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

No. You did it again. That was perfect. That was absolutely perfect. We're pivoting from wetness to protein now.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. And we are lucky. Michaela Jamison, the writer of the Body Type newsletter on. To talk with us about all things protein. Protein girlies, the marvelization of male beauty standards.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Muscle mommies.

[Jessica Defino]

Ladies getting swole. Muscle mommies. Yeah. So, Michaela, thank you so much for being here.

[C]

Thanks so much for having me. Can't wait to chat about all of this.

[Jessica Defino]

There's so much to dive into. And I was thinking, like, protein is obviously such a huge thing in the culture lately. And I feel like, as I was saying before, collagen is kind of like the gateway drug here. Like, there have been years and years and years of buzz about, like, collagen powders and what it can do for your skin. And collagen is, of course, a protein, and I feel like that's sort of evolved. And then, Emily, it feels like, very relevant to even, like, some of your build a body era.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

Stuff.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

The fashion is also getting swole.

[C]

Yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

We are creating bodies that never previously. And it couldn't possibly exist in the real world. Yeah. Like accentuating strange body parts. Kind of like. I refer to it often as, like, kind of tumors. Yeah. Kind of expanding off the body. Yeah. I think there is something similar going on in fashion. That's very curious. And also, I mean, a subsection of the build a body stuff that I talk about is quite literally muscle suits. We have had Dochi wear one in Paper magazine. We had Jojo Siwo wear one in Lady Gun magazine.

[C]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. Very interesting. And even just there was a Runway show this past fashion week. Duran Lynn Tink put two models. He put a female model in a male muscle suit and he put a male model in a. Just boobs, no muscles, Just.

[C]

Just boob suit.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, yeah, just the boob suit, which everyone found very hilarious, but they did not find the female model in the muscle suit hilarious, which I thought was very interesting and telling.

[C]

Interesting. I was not. I was not looped into that. I mean, I remember Schiaparelli did the six pack, you know, molded corsets a couple years ago. And even then I was like, oh, something's happening here.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And he's actually gotten more into kind of like away from muscles and into more like kind of body distortion. Like, again, kind of like fake hips exaggerating the long torsos. I don't know. He's always kind of playing with bodies. Like, obviously Scaparello is. Has bodies very much at the core of their aesthetic. But yeah, I don't know, something interesting happening.

[C]

There's like an exaggeration thing, right? Like, I think with so many trends, whether beauty, cosmetic surgeries, body stuff we cycle through, like, what, okay, what's the current moment? And at some point maybe you've tapped out all the quote unquote natural looking stuff. So it's like, okay, now, now, now, what do we inflate, distort, reshape with, with muscularity and how people are playing with that in ways that are not made with clothing but actually are built in the gym? It's gonna be exaggerated, I think just like an Instagram face is exaggerated, like cosmetic surgery. The eyes are pulled really tight. Everything's going to be just kind of ramped up to 11. And we've been seeing that with male celebrities for a while, if you look at the Marvel bodies and all of that stuff. But what I think is interesting and what I reached out to you guys about was seeing Sophie Turner. Clearly has been working out. Apparently she's gonna be playing Lara Croft. And I found that interesting because Angelina Jolie played Lara Croft back I don't even know how many years ago.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And not particularly ripped to my recollection.

[C]

No, no, like clearly, clearly like a slender, fit woman, but not like six pack, biceps, guns. So I'm very interested in. I mean, I remember Natalie Portman and she built her arms up to play, I guess, like Lady Thor. I don't know the Marvel stuff.

[Jessica Defino]

No, me either.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Me neither.

[Jessica Defino]

This is a safe space.

[C]

She was next to Chris Hemsworth and she had clearly done her own arm building and it just kind of gave me this little tickle in My brain like, huh, is there gonna be some kind of latching onto this more women or strength trait we know that's happening, regular women, celebrity women alike. Is there going to be now this ramped up pursuit of muscularity when women are playing roles that even in the original source material, like Lara Croft wasn't ripped, she was an 8 bit square animation. So just kind of interesting to see that that is much more allowable, I suppose, and desirable in the culture because like 15 years ago women were not into muscularity like this.

[Jessica Defino]

Well, what came to mind when you sent that Sophie Turner post was I feel like a couple of months ago only Sydney Sweeney had posted something she's playing. Who is she playing? She's playing a boxer.

[C]

So she's a boxer, right? I can't remember her name.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, she's like all bulked up. And that was making the rounds on Twitter with men being like, she's so ugly and fat. Like, it was really bizarre.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's really never been stronger.

[C]

Right. I mean that, that I forgot about that. You know, I remember I wanted to like walk into the ocean when I saw that. Like it.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

We all did.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's absolutely awful. And it actually was, it was one of those instances that I really felt like I could not understand what people were seeing that was making them say this. Like, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. If someone does gain like quite a bit of weight, she put on like a few pounds max of body fat and then muscle. I'm like, what do you guys sit? What is. I don't even understand what's happening. It really blew my mind.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, no, talk about distortion. Like it's not just the bodies that are being distorted, it's like our minds and how we see them. But do you. Is. Has there been like a different reaction to like the Sophie Turner muscularity?

[C]

Yeah. And I think what's happening here, I mean, you know, to, to talk about what I'm interested in, just in general is just body change stuff, body culture stuff. But I'm also a weightlifter myself. I love seeing when women are getting into strength training. But you know, what we can't set aside here is that if you are Sophie Turner and you are getting jacked in the gym, Sophie Turner still has incredibly low body fat. That's like why you can see her six pack abs.

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[C]

So there is something happening where. So for Sydney Sweeney, for example, if she's bulking up to play a boxer, like when you bulk, you're adding fat and muscle, then you would go through a cut to lose the body fat and reveal more of the muscle. Whoever Sydney Sweeney is playing is probably just a thicker, more muscular person. That's not super cut, like, how Sophie Turner is right now. That is why people are reacting negatively to it. They're not reacting negatively. I think for many people aren't. Many people are not reacting negatively when they see that you are lean and muscular. But if you're kind of, like, fluffy and muscular, of course that's not okay for a woman to be.

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I think that's a really important distinction. And also part of me also wonders if the difference between those two women has to do with, like, how their. Their musculature was, like, announced to the public. Like, you know, Sophie Turner is doing it on Instagram in kind of a controlled way. Right? Like, she's in control of the image, the angles, like, how it looks, and. And those Sydney Sweeney foes are paparazzi pictures taken.

[C]

Yeah, great point.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I wonder if it's also part of, like, the naturalness in which we're seeing her body. Like, you know, she's sitting down. She's, like, probably not sucking it, you know, like, and I'd wonder if that's also what's triggering to people is it's not this perfect red carpet image of how they think. Think a body like that should look like. And I think additionally, the fluffiness, like you said.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. And I mean, it feels crazy to call Sydney Sweeney, like, fluffy, but, I mean, there is a difference between, like, you know, 11% body fat and, oh, my God, 17% body fat.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right?

[C]

Like, that's what people react to, which is insane. But I think you're right. You know, there is something that happens with paparazzi shots, I think, where people feel, like, emboldened by, ooh, I'm seeing, like, I've snuck into your life, and now I see you for who you really are. Like, they feel like she's transgressing in some way or something.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I'm seeing, like, a true version of you because you weren't able to, like, retouch this or facetime, which I always think is so funny because, like, just tell me that you don't know that the Kardashians own their own paparazzi and are, like, actively retouching those image before they're sold to the tabloids.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. That's why Khloe Kardashian, she freaked out when that one where she looked gorgeous, but it clearly wasn't airbrushed.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes. It wasn't controlled.

[C]

Yeah, right, right, exactly. It's all about the control of the image, for sure.

[Jessica Defino]

Completely. I'm interested too, about the chatter around, like, a revenge body or divorce body. Speaking of Khloe Kardashian, who had that reality show revenge body.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Sophie Turner being right after divorce and Sophie Turner.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, Yep.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jessica Defino]

What's. Yeah, what's happening there? What are people saying? Is this something she has said or is this just like what people are saying in the comments?

[C]

I saw just a little bit of chatter and comments and stuff after the Sophie picture. Sophie Turner pictures came out. To my knowledge, she has not said anything. I think she just, like, let the pictures speak for themselves. But I think that what's interesting to me about the revenge body concept, I remember the Khloe Kardashian show. I don't remember what year that was, but it was enough.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Too recently, honestly.

[C]

Yeah, right. Like, too recently. Right. But the revenge body, to my memory, it was not about, like, bulking up or going to the. It was just. It was just weight loss. Like Khloe Kardashian. I don't remember her having been, like, super into, you know, hashtag gym life yet. It was just, like, straight up, you know, she lost body fat. So the revenge body thing, people saying, like, people in the comments going, oh, revenge body could be a very muscular female body. That's really interesting because the idea of a revenge body, I suppose, is like, you look so great now following your divorce.

[Jessica Defino]

Well, yeah, I feel like no matter what, whether it's like, getting thinner or getting, like, bulked up or whatever, looking stronger. Like, the concept of a revenge body or divorce body is so absurd. Like, it implies, like, you. The way to get back at a bad man is to be hotter. So he realizes, like, he should have treated you better. As if hot women are exclusively treated. Well, like, that's just a very funny concept to me.

[C]

Yeah, that is insane on its own, for sure. But also the idea that, like, the idea that if you are making changes in your life, you know, you have. You go through a big change, you go through a divorce, you get. You lose your job, whatever. We all know that it's almost a cliche at this point. You tend to, like, make other big changes too. It's like a domino effect. The idea that she might be. First of all, she might be doing this because of a movie role. So it's totally separate from the divorce thing anyway. But even if she wasn't, I'm not seeing how, like, revenge on her ex would be the primary driver of those changes. If she's making them, it might be for. Because she's like, okay, new lease on life. I'm doing a bunch of new things. We assume that it's only to, like, get back at the man, and that's.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It could only ever be about the man. You could never have your own agency or interest in your own health and body.

[C]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's also funny because there. There's definitely a subset of, in my opinion, terrible men who don't like when a woman gets muscular. So, you know, you see Sophie Turner with, like, guns and abs and stuff. Believe me, there's tons of guys like, oh, you look like a man. Like, I actually think it's. It's not man pleasing in the way that, you know, we might assume.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, no, I think so, too. I mean, I'm interested in the. How this, like, very specific instance with Sophie Turner is, like, affecting the general public or is part of, like, a larger trend. Like, obviously, we've been hearing about protein for the girlies for a really long time. Kourtney Kardashian has her, like, protein popcorn, and I don't know.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Excuse you. It's Chloe. Oh.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my God. Chloe. I'm sorry.

[C]

Wait, what did you say?

[Jessica Defino]

Did you not say, oh, this is cloud.

[C]

Get it right.

[Jessica Defino]

Cloud by Khloe Kardashian. So do you think. I don't know. I'm also wondering, like, obviously there's been such a huge fixation on celebrities getting smaller, and they're receiving a lot of backlash for that, like, the allegations of ozempic body. And I also wonder if, like, a fixation on getting, you know, toned and muscular instead is a way to, like, preserve an obsession with the body but avoid allegations of, like, glorifying thinness necessarily. Like, I don't. I don't know. I don't. I mean, I'm curious what you think, but I don't know if, like, a fixation on getting swole is necessarily healthier than a fixation on getting small. Right.

[C]

I mean, I think about this all the time. I've thought taught, you know, in my own ways. When I got into strength training and liking being a woman in the gym who looks muscular, I've. I've always thought, like, have I just kind of traded, like, one body or beauty standard for another, One obsession for another. I've done a ton of, like, you know, thought work and therapy work about that over the years and where I've landed personally, and this speaks to where I think Maybe other people have landed too. You know, we can. We can't not be people in the world who see ourselves and other people in the world. There is not a complete detachment for me in what I look like as a result of the exercise that I do. But for me, it's really a matter of how harmful does it feel. The body standard I was trying to reach when I was a teenager, in the mid aughts or whatever, or in college, if I just wanted to be thin, that was a much more harmful pursuit to me than the one now where I certainly have no desire to be thin. Do I have a desire to, like, make my shoulder muscles pop or whatever?

[Jessica Defino]

Sure.

[C]

That's still a body standard. That's still a beauty standard. But for me, it is one that comes from a place of a hobby and a habit that I really like doing that makes me feel good. Total body, total mind. It's kind of more of a. Of a result of something deeper versus just the only reason I'm doing it myself. So I kind of feel like I don't know who out there has totally detached themselves from caring about what their body looks like. Let me know.

[Jessica Defino]

Readers would love some hot tips.

[C]

Tell us how you've done that. But I think what I feel like is really potentially positive about the muscle mommy movement. Women getting into strength training, if that helps you. If you walk into the gym and you're like, I just want to be thin and ripped and look like Sophie Turner and eat the cloud popcorn and lose 15 pounds of body fat or whatever, I get it. Look at the culture we live in. I understand. My hope is always that perhaps you find through strength training, instead of starving yourself and going on the elliptical for two hours a day, maybe you find all the other benefits that are more than just the pursuit of thinness at any cost. Right. Like if you have to walk through that door. But then you find some of the stuff that I have found that's been really positive. That's great. Like, I hope that we just capture that in like the larger movement. But I think you're right, Jessica. Like you, a lot of the protein obsession right now, it's because. Because protein can help you lose body fat. It can help you build muscle. Like people, people want to be lean. Like, I, I understand why people are doing it. I do think it comes with more potential for, for better stuff as well, versus first. Versus, like the eat as little fat as you can movement, for example.

[Jessica Defino]

Right?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Totally. I think at the very least it's like a, a better body role Model than, you know, Akira Knightley. Like, I, I don't know, I think about growing up, like, that's who I was seeing on the record. It's like, oh, you, you have to have a body that just has no right, no tone, no fat, no. And it's like, at least, at the very least, you know, maybe you'll go to the gym. It's a good start, right?

[C]

Like, I, I just think it has more potential for accidentally discovering how like, healthy stuff versus just eating, eating no fat. But I think like the moment where celebrities, and not just celebrities, but brands, like, are caught up in the protein thing, they're seizing a moment that of course they wanna make money off of it. But I think the moment also has come from a lot of sound research and healthy attitudes around the body. A lot of people are lifting and getting stronger because there's just so much coming out about how that helps you in total weight as you age. That has nothing to do with what your body looks like. It's supportive of so many things. And there's so much research just about how muscularity is preventative for a lot of chronic diseases and things like that. I'm sure that's not why a lot of people who are 22 are doing.

[Jessica Defino]

It, but it makes me think of, can we look at how the marvelization of men's body standards over the past 10 years or so has affected the health of men for a blueprint of what this might look like? And it's like, I feel like we see so many articles coming out about men like using steroids or using like black market hormones to bulk up, and they're looks maxing and there's like a lot of disordered eating and disordered behaviors in this like gym culture where the goal is to look like a Marvel superhero. And it's like, yeah, of course there's, there's like wonderful health benefits to lifting and working out and all of this stuff, but yeah, when the focus is aesthetic, it can so quickly go off the rails.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, and Hollywood has a particular gift, I feel like, for warping anything that might be good or healthy into like its most extreme harmful form.

[C]

Yeah, right, of course. And I mean, I think this just, it all goes back to the conversation, you know, since time immemorial, which is like, if you go too far in one direction or the other with this stuff, it's not good for you. Like, it's, it's a matter of seeking balance. Like the protein moment lately, just because I know a lot about this stuff and I wrote a post about it for in my newsletter, like, no, you do not need to eat 200 pounds. 200 pounds, 200 grams. Certainly not 200 pounds. You don't need to eat 200 grams of protein a day. Like, I tried to spell out for people, like, here's where the returns are diminishing. Here's where. Sure, if you're strength training, it is gonna be helpful. Some people probably don't eat enough, blah, blah, blah. But that measured, balanced approach is just not the one that I think our human brains sometimes are wired to take. We want to. You see the Instagram reel. That's like, here's how to get, you know, the max protein. And you. You just feel like that's what you have to do. Especially when that's underpinned by images of, you know, Hugh Jackman playing Wolverine 20 years later, but also somehow 30 pounds more muscle at 50 or whatever he is. And when you bring up men, like, that's a huge conversation too. Like, just the body standards for men. We all are just so tortured by this stuff. I think we forget that dudes go through it too. One in three people that has an eating disorder is a guy. People kind of forget that.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I think we've talked about it even on the podcast before. Just also the way that especially for male actors, there is a very disordered relationship to eating and weight gain and loss that is totally normalized and just a fun and. Oh, we were talking about in relationship to Joe Joker, too. That's what it was. And Joaquin Phoenix talking about, like, how much weight he would lose for the Joker, like, rapidly over the course of a month. And everyone's like, oh, like, what a fun little story. I'm like, no, no. That's, like, actually very scary.

[C]

Right, right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But so normalized.

[C]

Yeah. Like, there's something where men's eating disorders or potential eating disorders are, like, not taken as seriously as we take women's. And I feel like there's something. There was. There was a moment a couple years ago, I read about this too, where there was a lot of online content about, like, gym bros that have eating disorders. But it wasn't like, hey, let's talk about this harmful thing. And, like, what's happening? There was no compassion. It was like, making fun of them almost. It was just like, okay, bro, you're measuring your chicken like you have orthorexia. But, like, not. Not in a let's talk about it, let's be helpful way.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It was like, some help. Yeah, it was.

[C]

It was like punching down it was like, well, you're, you're an idiot. You're an idiot for that, basically. And that, you know, I find that troubling for many reasons, but chief among them is like, like, well, how does that, how does that help them?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Anyone?

[C]

Yeah, that it's just going to make them dig in their heels because you're making fun of like the lifestyle that for better or worse, they, they like and are involved in.

[Jessica Defino]

You know, it kind of, I mean, it feels like maybe a little misogynistic because I think eating disorders have been so associated with women. There's like a feminization of this thing. So if you're pointing out like a disordered behavior in a man who otherwise seems to be like very masculine, I think it's easy for people to make fun of because they see as like a feminine coded behavior.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Weakness.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that's a really, that's a really interesting point. I think too that, you know, I've worked in gyms and been working out in gyms and have just been a gym rat for like over a decade. I'm the first person who will tell you that there is so much toxic shit going on in that space. Like no surprise to anyone, but there's also a lot of stuff that has changed and is better and is not toxic. And like, the people that I see in the gym are of all ages, shapes, sizes, body types. You know, there's good stuff here too. But I totally understand the implication or the accusation of eating disorders whether or not the men in these videos have them or not, because I think people there still is this idea that gym culture is a toxic, harmful, terrible space and they want to confirm their own priors with that. They see a gym bro and he's weighing his chicken and they're like, well, there you go, there you have it. You work out a lot. You're gonna be swimming around in the eating disorder pool. And it happens to men and it happens women. Those things aren't necessarily untrue. But it's almost like this. You're pointing out all of these problems because you only know the problems. We have to talk about those. But I also think, like more women getting into strength training lately has had the positive effect of women talking about how that has helped them get away from previous eating disorders. It has helped them find more power and mental strength in themselves. There's just all of it's going on. The bad's going on and the good is going on. What I think is, you know, interesting with like the celebrity and the Brand capture of this moment is that it just has the potential to take money from people for no reason, just for, like, stupid, stupid products. Like cloud.

[Jessica Defino]

Like, you can probably get the protein you need in order to function just from eating regularly throughout the day. Like, do you even need to, like, supplement like that?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like, no, I need the special popcorn. I don't know.

[C]

Well, so I looked this up. So. So Khloe Kardashian's cloud popcorn. So it's like six bucks a bag for three cups of popcorn. It's seven grams of protein, regular old popcorn. Like, if you buy a bag of, like, you know, Whole Foods brand365 popcorn, it's 3 grams of protein and it's also like half the price. So. So Chloe's is double the price for 4 grams more of protein per serving. That's less protein. That's than is in one egg. So it's basically like you are paying double for not that much more. Like, if she had found a way to hack protein to give you 40 grams a serving or whatever. Okay, then maybe we can have a discussion.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Had just assumed. I assumed she had, like, figured out a way to, like, infuse popcorn just, like, full of protein. I didn't just never checked in.

[C]

They. They just sprinkled milk protein isolate on it. Like, you could. You could just take your protein powder on your counter and like, dump it on regular popcorn and it would be the same thing. So, like, I think. I think what sucks about that is like, yes, it's. It's same as it ever was. Like, brands are taking money from people for dumb things. But it's also, I worry that there are people that are, you know, they're seeing the social media muscle mommy moment or muscle daddy moment or what have you, and they're like, oh, okay, gotta eat tons of protein. They might not even be doing enough strength training to necessitate that much more protein. They're not nourishing themselves with real food. They're just eating these bullshit snacks. And to me, it's just this awful stew of, like, you're not really helping yourself learn how to eat actually better food, and you're wasting your money. And it just makes me sad.

[Jessica Defino]

That's how I feel about, like, the collagen powder craze for skincare. It's like, you're really not getting that much out of it. You could literally eat, like, some fruit, some vitamin C that helps you build collagen in your body. You could, like, eat some salmon and get omega 3s and, like, not have to pay extra money than what you're currently paying for groceries. And it's.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's way more effective. Yeah, Yeah. I was also gonna ask you, just as someone who's doesn't know anything about any of. Not in this space at all. Like, the protein stuff, to me, I don't know, it just reminds me of kind of all the other food fads that we've lived through, you know, where it's like, oh, like, fat is bad and now like, eggs are bad and then they're good again. And I was wondering if you. If you see some of that in this trend as well, or if. Or if protein really is kind of like this magical ingredient that we should be maxing.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, good question. I think that, like, these other past trends eat less fat. Whatever. Whatever. I mean, they're. They're all tied up when you look at it from that way. Like, it's a. It's a body change mechanism. They're all tied up in. In fat loss or weight loss. Right. Protein can be very helpful for fat loss, if that's your goal. Because if you're also building muscle alongside it, just the metabolism effects that it has, yeah, it can be very helpful. I think it's less harmful, I would say, than a super, super low fat diet, for example, in the 90s in the slim Fast era, like, whatever. I think it's less harmful because, I mean, protein is a macronutrient. So is fat. So are carbohydrates. I'm always gonna be the person that says is, like, if someone is telling you, short of, like, legit medical reasons to cut out those macronutrients from your diet, get away from me. Like, sure, stay away from her. Get a job. Like, I can't have that happen. So having people pay attention to more protein, like, on the face of it, like, yes, good. It's a building block of the human diet. It's something that we need. Of course, it goes too far when you're telling people that they have to eat 200 grams a day or even 150 grams a day, whatever the case may be. So I think that to answer the question of, like, whether it's the same as some of these other, like, iffy, you know, diet hacks or whatever. I think it can be. But I also think that, you know, it's not the same thing as, like, eating Atkins bars for a diet or whatever. Like, protein is just a regular macronutrient that's in the food that we eat. A lot of people are deficient in it for their needs if they are active. Most people are not so deficient that they're, like, you know, wasting away and having health problems because of it. But I will say, if you're into or trying to get into strength training, you probably need more than you're getting. If you really have never paid attention to protein before. But people just go so crazy with it. Like, yeah, like what Jess. What Jess was saying, like, you can get more pro. Just eat. Eat a little bit of protein every time you eat. You don't have to have, like, a T bone steak every 30 minutes.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, man, I feel like I've learned so much.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I know. Me too.

[Jessica Defino]

Thank you.

[C]

Oh, I'm glad.

[Jessica Defino]

Thank you for educating us on.

[C]

Yeah, of course.

[Jessica Defino]

Building muscle and eating protein.

[C]

I'm just excited to see. I mean, excited might be the wrong word. I'm. I'm interested to see what happens with this moment because, you know, if we think about, like, body trends or beauty trends, there's definitely, like, this is a trend driven thing. It's like what you were saying, Emily, about, like, clothes. Like, it's a moment where people are like, yay, muscle. Okay, will that cycle out? I mean, yeah, probably. Um, but it is just very interesting to me that I always quote this 2009, like, informal study that this writer did of like, 3,000 or I think maybe 2,000 women and just asked them, like, what do you think about muscle on your own body or on other people's bodies? And the overwhelming response was that they didn't like it. They didn't like the look of it on themselves. They didn't like the look of it on celebrity women. They didn't think that men liked it. That was in 2009. That is not so long ago that you just can dismiss, like, okay, wow. Now in 2025, we have a totally different attitude. What's interesting is that that's happening at the same time as a renewed obsession with straight up thinness. Right. It's like, okay, we have, like, skinny talk and, like, muscle mommy talk or whatever happening at the same time. And that's just really interesting to me because there's, like, so many ways that people seem to feel that you can choose to have your body be as, like, a trend. And, you know, I would hope that people don't throw out strength training because it's not trending to have a muscular body anymore or whatever, if that happens. But I do think, even though it sounds kind of pessimistic, a big part of this is just like, it's just a trend moment, but I hope it does capture some people who, even if you're going after it as a trend, maybe you find the good stuff in it too.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's also just so fascinating to me that it's somehow the Kardashians who have found themselves once again at, like the.

[Jessica Defino]

At the center, at the Nexus.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes. Of both being thin and like, both the thin obsession and the muscular obsession has somehow once again collided in those girls specifically. And I just think that's so fascinating. They've done it again.

[C]

Well, it's. I mean, it goes back to this idea, like, of all of the. All of the, like, body and beauty trends we could talk about. It's always this very difficult state of being to have.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Expensive.

[C]

Right? Like, okay, you should be. You should. And it's all like something like insert adjective here and thin. Right. Be curvy and thin. Be big ass and. And thin. Muscular and thin. Like, all of these things you can be. It's also like, slot underneath of that, but make sure you're not. You know, you still gotta be. You still gotta be skinny, though, right?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Totally.

[C]

So that, you know that. That sucks. So I can sit here and be like, yay, muscle. But also realize, like, well, yeah, a lot of people still just wanna lose fat.

[Jessica Defino]

Okay.

[C]

I mean, I'm trying to just take the tiny little incremental wins, I guess.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

At least people are, like, setting foot in the gym and like, learning maybe a little bit more about their bodies. I think that is. Is something positive.

[C]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I agree. Even if Kim Kardashian inspired them to.

[C]

Get that, she'll move on to something else.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. She'll have a new body soon enough. She'll have, like a cyborg Tesla body.

[C]

I'm sure she'll look like the Lara Croft, like, square. Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

She'll be the Roblox body. Yeah. For sure.

[C]

That's the next trend.

[Jessica Defino]

Roblox body, honestly. Yeah. Chloe Gris Moretz just launched a beauty brand called God Mode that's inspired by gaming.

[C]

What?

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I didn't know she was a gamer.

[Jessica Defino]

Apparently she's a gamer. And every post on the God Mode Instagram is an animation. Like, is a video game character. So I'm like, this is odd. Interesting.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Just never gonna show you what the products actually do to a human face.

[Jessica Defino]

No. Yeah. And humanity is not the inspiration. You know?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So, honestly, I think she would be smart to just go full digital. Like, it is just a beauty product for, like, animation, like, video game characters.

[C]

That's like performance art, right?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That I'm interested in, actually. That sounds amazing. Like, installed in Fortnite, you have to pay a bunch of money to, like, get yourself.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, me too.

[C]

That does make me think of just, like, a final point that. I don't know. This is like Galaxy Brain, but it's like, okay, well, if everything is increasingly, like, in the digital sphere and we don't live anywhere but on the Internet anymore, there is something, I guess, that's pleasing to me about the idea of. Of muscularity, having a moment. Cause, like, you gotta go to a real place to go do that. Like, you do have to go out into the world and, like, move your body and connect with the physical self to realize that effect. So, again, that's another crumb of, like, I don't know, something about that feels good. It's when I get away from my screens. I guess maybe that's one of the biggest positive effects, is, like, I can get out of here and go lift something at least.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, no, same. That is exactly how I feel about exercises. It's probably like the only. The only time where my brain turns all the way off and I get to just fully inhabit my body and. Yep, that's, yeah, increasingly rare in this day and age, for sure.

[Jessica Defino]

Well, thank you so much for being here, Mikayla.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, thank you so much. It was great conversation.

[C]

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Love talking to you gals.

[Jessica Defino]

And where can people find you? Where can people find your work?

[C]

I am on Substack and my newsletter is called Body Type. That's where pretty much everything lives right now. Now working on a book coming out next year. So when that's out, you will have me scrambling for your attention on that as well.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

We'll have you back for sure.

[C]

Awesome. Thank you.

[Jessica Defino]

All right. Yep, it's time for Mess of the Month.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's time. My Mess of the Month is a real throwback. It has nothing to do with this month or anything going on. I just saw on, um, on Substack Notes, someone. There's this person. I wish I could remember their name off the top of my head, but they've been posting, like, a lot of, like, physical media from, like, early Internet days. And they posted the CD ROM game called the Barbie Fashion Designer, and it was released in 1996. And it truly unlocks something deep, deep inside my brain. I did not remember how aggressively I was playing this game as a child until I saw the images of it. And then suddenly it all came rushing back, back to me. And now suddenly my entire career in fashion makes Sense. I literally never thought I was interested in fashion in a way other people weren't. And now I'm recalling hours, hours spent designing Barbie's outfits. It's just crazy. I. So in the original game, this is also so weird and specific to me. That's clearly, I'm obsessed with fashion because when you buy the game, it's like it would give you maybe like two sheets of this special printer paper that could be turned. That was like fabric printer paper. I don't even know how to explain it. It was like fabric attached to a backing of real paper so that you could cut it out and turn it into like a real fabric outfit for Barbie. Like what you designed, but you only got like two sheets of it. And then you had to like, buy the special paper separately. Right. So I only ever had these two special sheets. And so I, like, use them immediately. Obviously, I made my Barbie outfits and then the rest of me playing this game is literally me just making digital outfits that I never printed out for Barbie. I just wanted to make different outfits for her.

[Jessica Defino]

That's so fun. I like, feel like I missed out a lot in. On computer games from. From our childhood era.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I like, was not playing computer games except this one. I was like, not interested in being competitive or like killing things or anything. I just wanted to, like, put little hearts in different colors on Barbie's skirt. There's specifically if people. Maybe I'll link it in them in the description. But specifically on the COVID of the CD rom, there's like this heart pattern, like multiple heart pattern that's on the skirt. And I remember this pattern so vividly. It is like visually in my body. Yeah. And I remember, like, dying the little, like, external hearts. Purple and this one's pink and red and. Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

That's so fun.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's. It. It was also right around the time when Barbie had that. Per your interest, that Barbie had that, like, makeover beauty. Beauty. That. That head, that bust.

[Jessica Defino]

I had the head.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Do you remember the bus that you could like, put water on her, on her whatever eyelids and it would like, make her. Yes, it was at the exact same time. Yeah. That was the, the beauty component to this fashion CD ROM that I was fixated on as a child.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. There. I mean, Barbie was everywhere. I had a My size Barbie. Did you have a My size Barbie?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

God, Jess, I forgot about my size Barbie. No. Because that trip triggers some of my automatonophobia. I don't. I don't want a doll that it is human size. That. Yeah. Upsets me Viscerally. And so yeah, I never got into the my Barbie, but I, I respected it from afar. It was really like prime bar. They, the products they were putting out in the 90s for Barbie were like really insane.

[Jessica Defino]

Well, it's no wonder our, our age group has like regressed completely into Barbie nostalgia in the past couple of years. Like that was formative too.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Formative, perhaps Crazy. Anyway, this, that post just really did a number on my brain and really made put my whole life into perspective in a way that was humbling. I think.

[Jessica Defino]

I feel like there's probably an app for that now. Like you could go back into this.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You're suggesting I should get back into the mix?

[Jessica Defino]

No, no.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I should start designing for Barbie again.

[Jessica Defino]

I think it's nice to keep. Keep your memories memories and don't fall into the trap.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Keep my passion separate.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My, my mess of the month also has to. I'm traveling back to my childhood, but not in quite such a nice way. So I recently got an Instagram ad served to me for these like sort of like adhesive, like these double sided adhesives that you put on the back of your ear to affix your sticky outy ear to the side of your head so that they don't stick out any anymore.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I'm just like weirdly enough, I've seen this. Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

How. How did they know? How did they find me? How did they know that this is my deepest insecurity and something I've struggled with my entire life?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I think sadly, because it's a lot of people's insecurities.

[Jessica Defino]

It's so crazy. Yeah. So I was like, what. What is this? I look at the name. The name of the company is U cure and their tagline is your health starts with you. And they liter only sell these ear patches that adhere to your head. And I am taking this very personally.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You cure it.

[Jessica Defino]

You. No, it's like the cure for you too.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I just like it both as like a command, like you fix this problem, but also like, yes, this is the cure for like literally you.

[Jessica Defino]

It is saying like you are your bodies, your flaws are your. You. You. Your body is a medical issue.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. So we have to rectify.

[Jessica Defino]

You have to cure it. And the cure is just to look a little different. Just look a little stick. Still different.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Here's a question for you. So these stickers temporary? Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

Like they say they last for days.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Okay. Well I don't think they should be lasting for days.

[Jessica Defino]

I know it's a little scary too.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Long but also, I just mean like, if you were to stick her down your ears every single day for a year, let's say, would it have literally any impact on how your ears stick out normally without the adhesive? No. Right.

[Jessica Defino]

I don't think so. I think it in childhood there maybe because I have looked into this. Like, honestly, I. If there's one thing I want in the world, it's that I could get this plastic surgery and I wouldn't be betraying my values.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Can I tell you, I've literally never noticed or thought about your ears.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, thank you.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Ever.

[Jessica Defino]

I think about them all the time.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I've never noticed that.

[Jessica Defino]

No, that's nice. That's nice to hear. But so I've looked into this and there are these like kits that you can order and they're more effective in childhood where like, basically it puts your like ear into like some sort of mold and it adheres it to the side of your head. And if you do it while you're like cartilage is young and pliable enough, it could have long lasting effects. But yeah, no, you're pretty like shit out of luck in adulthood.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Wow.

[Jessica Defino]

It is crazy. Especially because, you know, much like you, everyone in the world that I've encountered has always been like, what are you talking about?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, they're not.

[Jessica Defino]

So I know that this is all in my head and yet.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And also I just can't get. They're like, they're just funnels for hearing.

[Jessica Defino]

I know, I know.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You know what I mean? And it feels very like, like what people do to dogs. Like with dogs, like, you know how some breath, they have to like, be pointed straight up or they need to be like raised and flopped over in a certain way. And I've always thought that's so insane. It's like the dog's ears. Just like, let them have ears, just.

[Jessica Defino]

Let them have ears.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But this is exactly the same thing.

[Jessica Defino]

It really is. And now that I'm thinking about it, I think, you know, my, my personal fixation on my ears started because a doctor told my parents, like, oh, when I was a baby, like, her ears are really sticky outy. Like, you should do something about it. He made it seem as if it was a medical issue and like suggested I get that surgery. Oh my God. So for my whole life, life, my, like my first memory is like, you have to get this surgery because your ears are so big that it's a medical emergency.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Doctors really need to watch themselves and the things they say. Because you just reminded me when I was A child. They said something similar to me because I am six foot two. Like, I am not a normal size per. Or like an average. Not normal, but you know what I mean? Like, I'm not an average size.

[Jessica Defino]

You're above average.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'm above average sized woman. So they always used to. Do you remember, remember growing up when you were getting, like, going to just like, checkups or whatever, they would show you that graph of, like, your height versus your weight and like, where you fall within the graph. I was always like 5 inches above the graph. Like, my dot was just radically in the sky above this normal graph of, like, averages. And they'd always be like, wow, oh my God. Like, wow. Like you're really up there. And it did implant this idea to me that both my height and my weight were like, a problem. Like, they were so abnormal.

[Jessica Defino]

Medically abnormal.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

They were medically abnormal and they were needed to be, like, remarked upon first of all by the, the nurses and doctor. But also that I was just like a freak of nature.

[Jessica Defino]

That's so sad.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But it's like, I'm not a freak of nature. Like, my parents are also six foot plus. Yeah, Like, I am exactly the average between the two of their heights and weights. Like. But yeah, I remember that. So. And also, like, nurses not even being able to measure my height.

[Jessica Defino]

Really, because you were taller.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I stopped knowing. I still to this day don't know exactly how tall I am because nurses are so short that they literally couldn't raise the thing up high enough to, like, hit top of my head. So they would just guess and they'd be like, yeah, you're probably like 6 foot 6 2. And so for a long time, this is actually my favorite thing. For a long time, I would tell people that I'm six foot. I'm not. I'm. I'm at least six two. I could very well be six three. I have no idea. But that was awesome because I used to tell men at parties all the time that I was 6 foot, and you would watch their face crumble. They were 6 foot and I was actually 62 at the time when I was telling them this. So you would just watch their face drop and they'd be like, be like.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, no, I'm 5 10.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes. They all thought they were 510 in. Until a man literally got in a fight with me.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh my God.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like, you can't be six foot because I'm six foot. Like, you have to be six two.

[Jessica Defino]

How are men getting measured? You know, that's what I want to know. How are these tall men getting measured?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Great question.

[Jessica Defino]

They probably have a separate apparatus they bring out for these tall boys.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I don't know. But as soon as I was a teen and I did literally hit six feet, all my nurses stopped measuring me completely.

[Jessica Defino]

Wow.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Because either the machine didn't go up higher than that or they couldn't reach something so they just started guesstimating.

[Jessica Defino]

So wild.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Pretty cool.

[Jessica Defino]

Well, all of our. All of our so called medical issues explain it all out to end on beautiful. There's a cure for you out there, [e-mail] what is it?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Chopping off my knees like very ugly stepsister. Oh yeah. I'll just cut my feet off. There we go.

[Jessica Defino]

We could do it.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Back to Everchite. Wow.

[Jessica Defino]

Okay. We've. We've sufficiently yapped, I think.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I think so. I think that's good for today.

[Jessica Defino]

All right, well, thanks for listening. If you've made it this far, I'm assuming you enjoyed listening somewhat and maybe you could write a nice little review on. On itunes and yeah, we will see you next month. Bye.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

By.