Glitter Freckles Are Canceled

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Review of Mess – Glitter Freckles Are Canceled

Host: Jessica DeFino
Co-Host: Emily Kirkpatrick
Release Date: October 29, 2024

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Introduction and Personal Updates

Time Stamp: 00:16 – 03:14

Jessica DeFino and Emily Kirkpatrick kick off the episode with light-hearted banter about their new surroundings and recent in-person debates. Jessica shares her relocation to Jersey City, humorously noting the techno beats emanating from a nearby weed shop, while Emily playfully considers the possibility of recording the podcast in person someday. They reminisce about their recent debate event, where Emily's performance was particularly lauded.

Notable Quote:

Emily: "You were one of the shining stars of the night."
[02:19]

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Nepo Baby Models and Industry Backlash

Time Stamp: 11:41 – 25:17

The hosts delve into the pervasive influence of "Nepo baby" models—children of celebrities—on the fashion industry. They discuss the saturation of such models in high-profile shows like Paris Fashion Week, highlighting figures like Romeo Beckham and Sunday Rose. Jessica criticizes the favoritism towards these models, suggesting that their established fame and connections grant them disproportionate opportunities, sidelining hardworking aspiring models.

Key Points:

• The rise of Nepo babies in modeling, citing examples like Lila Moss and Amelia Gray.
• Public backlash on platforms like TikTok against the monopolization by Nepo babies.
• The impact of nepotism on diversity and opportunity within the modeling industry.

Notable Quote:

Emily: "They are truly squeezing every other girl out of the job at every tier."
[14:13]

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Beauty Standards and Halsey's Homage-Laden Album Rollout

Time Stamp: 05:19 – 29:52

Jessica and Emily explore the evolving landscape of beauty standards, particularly through the lens of Halsey's latest album, The Great Impersonator. They analyze Halsey's strategic use of homages, where she mimics iconic celebrities, sparking both admiration and controversy. The discussion extends to the broader implications of such trends on societal beauty norms, including the resurgence of the "ballet body" aesthetic—a surgical, ultra-thin physique promoted by cosmetic enhancements.

Key Points:

• Halsey's album visuals as a commentary on celebrity culture and beauty.
• The problematic resurgence of extreme beauty standards facilitated by surgical enhancements.
• The cyclical nature of beauty trends driven by celebrity influence.

Notable Quote:

Jessica: "Natural does not have one look."
[27:55]

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Advertising, Branding, and the Manipulation of Media

Time Stamp: 46:00 – 73:39

The conversation shifts to the intricate relationship between celebrities and advertising. Emily expresses her fascination with staged paparazzi shots that serve as covert advertisements, using Ben Affleck's quintessential Dunkin' Donuts photos as a prime example. They critique brands like Honey Bunches of Oats and Butterfinger for their blatant and often illogical product placements, arguing that such marketing strategies lack authenticity and resonate poorly with audiences.

Key Points:

• The deceptive nature of staged celebrity photos as advertisements.
• Failures of certain brand collaborations to align with realistic consumer behavior.
• The impact of over-the-top product integrations on brand perception.

Notable Quote:

Emily: "Why are brands so bad at staging reality?"
[46:52]

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The Decline of Traditional Media and Journalism

Time Stamp: 74:34 – 93:55

Jessica and Emily critically assess the current state of journalism, referencing a New York Magazine series questioning whether the media can survive. They discuss the unsustainable nature of low freelance rates, the dominance of SEO-driven content over substantive journalism, and the detrimental effects of advertising dependencies on editorial integrity. The hosts lament the loss of authentic, in-depth reporting in favor of clickbait and celebrity gossip, citing personal experiences where editorial demands stifled creative expression.

Key Points:

• The financial struggles of freelance journalists and unsustainable pay rates.
• The prioritization of SEO and advertising revenue over quality journalism.
• The exodus of talented writers to independent ventures like newsletters to maintain creative autonomy.

Notable Quote:

Jessica: "Advertising is clearly the issue. That is the huge issue."
[83:48]

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Mess of the Month: Taylor Swift's Glitter Freckles and Guitar Destruction

Time Stamp: 95:40 – 105:50

Concluding the episode, the hosts spotlight two recent pop culture incidents involving Taylor Swift. Jessica highlights Swift's "glitter freckles" trend, criticizing it for its environmental impact due to microplastics in glitter. Emily discusses the viral moment when a man smashed a purportedly autographed Taylor Swift guitar, only to reveal it was a fake. They dissect the broader implications of such actions on celebrity influence and environmental consciousness.

Key Points:

• The environmental hazards posed by glitter products, promoting a call to "cancel" glitter.
• The problematic nature of celebrity endorsements and the propagation of microplastics.
• The cultural fascination with iconoclastic acts and their unintended consequences.

Notable Quotes:

Jessica: "Gen Z needs to cancel glitter."
[99:10]

Emily: "It's the exact same stuff. Just overnight."
[43:40]

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Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Jessica and Emily provide incisive commentary on the intersection of celebrity influence, fashion industry practices, beauty standards, and the declining state of journalism. Their unfiltered opinions and critical analysis shed light on the underlying issues perpetuating the "mess" in contemporary pop culture.

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Notable Quotes:

1. On Nepo Babies:

   Emily: "They are truly squeezing every other girl out of the job at every tier."
   [14:13]

2. On Beauty Standards:

   Jessica: "Natural does not have one look."
   [27:55]

3. On Advertising:

   Emily: "Why are brands so bad at staging reality?"
   [46:52]

4. On Journalism:

   Jessica: "Advertising is clearly the issue. That is the huge issue."
   [83:48]

5. On Glitter Freckles:

   Jessica: "Gen Z needs to cancel glitter."
   [99:10]

These quotes encapsulate the hosts' critical viewpoints on the discussed topics, emphasizing the underlying challenges within pop culture and media.

---

Final Thoughts

Glitter Freckles Are Canceled provides a comprehensive examination of the current trends and issues plaguing pop culture, fashion, beauty, and media industries. Jessica DeFino and Emily Kirkpatrick's candid discussions offer listeners a deeper understanding of the systemic problems and cultural phenomena shaping today's societal landscape.

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to the Review of Mess, a podcast dedicated to discussing the highs and lows of pop culture every month. I'm Jessica Defino. I write the newsletter the Review of Beauty.

[B]

And I'm Emily Kirkpatrick, and I write I heart Mess. We're back.

[A]

We're back. I'm coming to you from a new location. I moved to Jersey City and there is a weed shop right across the street from me that just, like, bumps techno music all day. So if you hear a slight pulsing.

[B]

That'S cream the weed shop reverberation through the podcast.

[A]

It's wonderful.

[B]

It's your local medical marijuana dispensary or no, recreational, I guess now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, both.

[B]

That shows how old, old I am.

[A]

Yeah, I know, I know. I, like, always check when I pass, when I'm like, oh, can you go in here without a medical card? Of course. I feel like we could even record the podcast in person one of these days, now that we're so close.

[B]

Oh, I thought you were going to say inside of a recreational shop. Whatever you want to do. Yeah, yeah. We should do it in person one time. That would be fun. One time.

[A]

Yeah. Just once.

[B]

Yeah, just once. I don't. Not too much. Don't want to overdo it, but I'll. I'll be open to it. I'll. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, we just came off of doing the whole debate in person, too.

[B]

We did, and I thought it went really well.

[A]

I thought it went well, too. I don't know if people noticed. I'm like, telling myself they didn't notice, but I was so nervous in my intro that my mouth went really dry and my lips started sticking to my teeth. Like I literally could not form words.

[B]

No, I thought it was beautiful, elegant. You looked like Gwyneth paltrow in the 90s.

[A]

I was doing an anti goop take on Gwyneth's like, red velvet. What was that? Was that Tom Ford? Her suit?

[B]

That's a really famous Tom Ford velvet suit.

[A]

Yes. Mine was not Tom Ford, but could have been. It was a red velvet suit nonetheless.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't notice that you were nervous at all. You seemed very professional. Hostess with the mostess. And I thought it was fun. People had a good time. They were laughing, they were voting.

[A]

They were laughing especially for you, I feel like.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

You were one of the shining stars of the night.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

If. If listeners haven't already read your. Your opening statements from the debate, which you published, I definitely. We'll put it in the show notes.

[B]

I Did Incredible. I also published. I don't know if I ever said this on the podcast, but I published that alt right article I got into a little minor spat with Face about. I just published it on my newsletter, so people can read that if they want.

[A]

Yeah, it's a great read. I would. I would encourage it. And it's not set in stone yet, but we're thinking about bringing the whole debate to Los Angeles.

[B]

I think that's a great idea.

[A]

So if anyone in LA is interested, let me know.

[B]

Yeah, likewise. I feel like after I did the Mess live show, I had maybe three people ask if I would do it in la. And I would love to do it in la. So if anyone cares or if anyone wants to help me do that, let's make it a joint.

[A]

Yes. Oh my God, it'd be so fun.

[B]

Back to back. Spectacular.

[A]

Oh my God, I would love that. I would absolutely love that.

[B]

Can you imagine the, like, collab merch we could make?

[A]

We could do an Erewhon smoothie. Oh my God, wait, we have to make this happen.

[B]

I would love to do a disgusting Erewhon smoothie. I've never been to Erewhon. I've been to LA maybe twice in my whole life.

[A]

We could just call it the Mess.

[B]

The Mess.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

The Whole Mess.

[A]

The whole Mess. Holy shit. I'm obsessed with this idea. We have to make it happen.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

What else is going on? Any notes from last time?

[B]

Just, you know, I feel like whenever we talk about stuff on here, it like ends up. It just rattles around in my brain all month long until we meet again to speak. And so there's just a few things I noticed from our conversation last time. And the first was, you know, my love of the Doritos chip at the VMAs.

[A]

Chippy.

[B]

Yes. And then just this week I saw that Chick Fil? A announced that they are launching their own streaming platform next month. And I thought, wow, that. That is exactly what we're talking about. Taken to a whole new level of insanity.

[A]

What are they going to stream?

[B]

That's a great question. It is all original programming, which I also in, like, it's just incredible to me, like, as Hollywood is in its decline, like Hollywood is not putting out any new movies, TV shows. Like, the whole thing is kind of in a tailspin after the strike, obviously, and with the AI of it all. And I just love that. I don't love it, but you know what I mean? I love that corporations are like stepping in to fill that gap with their own original programming, including original animated shows, scripted podcasts, and cooking shows, all based off Chick Fil A. They also have plans to expand into a game show and a reality show next year. Very curious about what a Chick Fil A reality show is.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I won't be watching, but I'll be reading.

[B]

I'll be observing from afar to be sure, as I always do. And then also, you know, last month, we talked about homages and how those are really running rampant in fashion right now.

[A]

Oh, and I listened to your episode with Alyssa on the New Guard, and it was fantastic.

[B]

Thank you so much. I was just on the New Guard podcast with Alyssa Vingen, my friend, and, yeah, we talked even more at length about that, and she had some really interesting points. And, yeah, I thought it was a really interesting conversation. And again, now we have this whole rollout for Halsey's new album, the Great Impersonator, where every single image for it is her doing a direct imitation of another famous celebrity.

[A]

Oh, I have not seen this.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

No, I haven't heard about this.

[B]

Some of them are extremely good. Some of them are scarily accurate. She really does look like the original in kind of a crazy way. And, of course, some of them are also very controversial. They're upsetting people. She did Aaliyah, and I think anytime you do Aaliyah, that's rough. People are obviously immediately up in arms. It's like, please leave her alone.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Please let her legacy rest.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

But, yeah, I just thought it was so interesting that, like, took what we were talking about with fashion to the next level. And also, I think it puts Halsey's VMA outfit in context. Right. Because she wore an homage. Well, it's not even an homage. She literally wore Elizabeth Hurley's Versace gown.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. It's also, I mean, interesting Halloween timing. Very costume y.

[B]

Of course, yes. Do you have Halloween plans?

[A]

I don't really have Halloween plans. I might go to, like, a casual party. I don't think I'm gonna dress up, but if I do anything, I'm thinking, like, chic clown makeup.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. Every time I put on blush, I feel like Pagliacci. You know the sad clown from the joke.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

For some reason, I just, like, look in the mirror. I see the sad in my own eyes, and I put on these, like, pink circles, and I'm, like, coloring it.

[B]

Off harder and harder to fight the sadness.

[A]

So I'm gonna go all out. What about you?

[B]

Well, One. I have a similar relationship to Blush. I too do feel a bit like the sad clown putting it on. And also I've. I just never know when is enough. Like, what I think is enough, I've learned from photographs is nothing. And so then I go heavy handed and in real life it looks insane, but then in photographs it looks normal and good.

[A]

Right. Well, there's such a difference. And that's such a good point in terms of, like, where beauty has gone in the past, especially 10 years. It's like when we're viewing ourselves through the phone and photographs more than real life. Like, oh, yeah, everything's exaggerated.

[B]

Yes. This was. I don't know if I've said this on the podcast before, but this. I say it all the time to people in real life. This was a huge lesson for me when I was at People magazine because I made this video for them where I pretended to be a Kardashian for a day. And so I had to, like, live through the full Kardashian experience. And that experience started with hair and makeup, obviously.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And so I got my hair and makeup professionally done, like on a. Like a studio soundstage. And when I was on the studio soundstage, I was looking at myself in the mirror and I'm like, am I the most beautiful woman alive? Like, do I have perfect bone structure? Like, do I have perfect facial feet? Like, I truly thought I was gorgeous in a way that I've never seen myself before. And then, like, so we're filming all day, so at one point, I go into the office bathroom and I look at myself under the floor, so lights. And I'm like, oh, you are a monster. Like, you look like a freak. It was just like stripes. It was like a parfait of different colors on my. You know what I mean? Cause it's like you get the streak of blush, the streak of contour, the streak of powder, and it's like you look absolutely out of your mind. And I was just walking around the office like that all day and I was like, oh, wow. That was a hard lesson of the difference between. Yeah, makeup for film and makeup for life.

[A]

I want to see this footage so badly.

[B]

Oh, it's out there. You can Google it's. Yeah, I've never been able to watch it in its entirety, but that's a me problem. Other people seem to really enjoy it. Yeah, it's out there.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

Yeah. Me for Halloween. I. Well, I usually don't have costumes. Honestly, my entire adult life has been a rebellion in response to My mother's love of Halloween, and she very much traumatized me with that as a child. So a lot of my adult life has not been getting into the Halloween spirit and dressing up. But this year, tonight, I am. I'm collaborating with Jenny Gorlick. Do you know her? She's another substack writer. She writes the newsletter Night Out.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She's part of Substack's. I don't know what they call that program, but, like, video creator, that new endeavor that they're up to. She's part of that. Cool. So we are doing some sort of collaboration for her newsletter, and we are going to the Grindr Halloween party tonight.

[A]

I'm so jealous.

[B]

Yeah. And the theme is. I forget. It's like follies and frivolities and fancies, but it's all kind of like Georgian era dress, which is. Yeah. Kind of. I think of it as like, kind of Jane Austen y, you know, like an empire waist.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

A tiara, a glove, a ribbon.

[A]

Yeah. Love that.

[B]

So, yeah, so I have to. I have a. Well, I have to figure that out. But I do have some sort of costume for that tonight. And then this weekend, I'm going to a friend's Halloween party, and I'm gonna be Jojo Siwa.

[A]

Oh, my God. You need to provide pictures.

[B]

Yeah, I'll make people take pictures of me. I'm gonna bedazzle my own construction worker vest. And I've got some giant Emily.

[A]

Emily is so perfect for you.

[B]

Yeah, I think I'm gonna. I actually. I went to this manic panic party a couple months back, and they gave me glitter hairspray. And so that. I think that's gonna be. End up being a big component of the.

[A]

It's gonna have to be.

[B]

Yeah. And then I'm gonna do that kind of, like, bedraggled kiss makeup. I think people are gonna know. I was telling my sister about this, and she's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. But I'm like, I can't imagine that other people have got to know this reference.

[A]

People will know. It's. People will know.

[B]

It's so specifically her.

[A]

Well, especially with the hair. I'm assuming you're gonna do.

[B]

And then I'm gonna do the dance, obviously. I'm gonna just violently gyrate my body.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

And I think that will really seal the deal.

[A]

Be safe.

[B]

Thank you so much. I'm. Yeah. I am elderly. That's a good point. I don't want to, like, throw out my back doing this, even for the.

[A]

Young ones, it just looks so painful to do, like, your brain, like, banging around in there, you know, it's physically.

[B]

Rigorous to be sure. I will be careful. Well, we'll see as the night goes on.

[A]

That's such a fantastic costume, though. I can't wait to see.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Should we get started with the Nepa model moment we're having?

[B]

Yeah. Something just for the sake of full transparency with our listeners, I have been in jury duty for the last week and a half, which feels like some sort of pop culture sensory deprivation tank. So these are all just kind of.

[A]

Did it fix you? Did it?

[B]

No. If anything, it made me way worse. I was like, I need it. I need my fix. I don't know what's going on out there. So a lot of these are just ideas that have been rattling around in my brain during this infinite free time. But one of them is I just noticed after this fashion week that there's been a lot of pushback on the Nepo baby models from actual real, regular working models on TikTok. And I just thought that was so interesting because it's like, you know, why now?

[A]

I wonder if it has to do with, like, all the coverage of, like, Nepo celebs over the past couple of months. Like, I feel like New York magazine did that big pack, and it's kind of, like, cool to hate on a Nepo baby now in a way that it maybe hasn't been before, or it's at least, like, socially acceptable to question it totally.

[B]

Or even just like, having that language to describe what's going on has maybe made it more salient to share this type of stuff. But I don't know. I was just thinking about, you know, pretty much all of our biggest models today are Nepo babies. Certainly the biggest working ones. We have the Hadids, of course.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Kendall Jenner, Kaia Gerber. And then I was thinking, even those who aren't kind of our huge A list here. Models are also becoming increasingly Nepo babies. We have Kate Moss's daughter, Lila Moss, Amelia Gray, who's Lisa Rinna, and Harry Hamlin's daughter.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Iris Law, Jude Law's daughter, of course. Lenny Klum, Heidi Klum's daughter, and Valentina Lima, who, now that I say that, I'm kind of surprised Valentina wasn't in the Victoria's Secret show with her mom, Adriana.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not familiar with Valentina.

[B]

Valentina. Yeah, I would say kind of D list here. Nepo baby model. But but out and about, certainly booking jobs. And for me, you know, I just wonder maybe if it's hit kind of like a saturation point, you know, like it. They are truly squeezing every, every other girl out of the job at every tier, at every, like from a high, a high fashion perspective all the way down to commercial. Like there is kind of no job that they're looking at new faces for. And part of that I think to blame is casting directors just kind of taking the easiest low hanging fruit. Right. Like these girls already have this huge fame built in, these huge social followings built in. They have mothers who are gonna, or fathers who are gonna promote whatever they do. It's a whole PR cycle.

[A]

Even if it's for an ad campaign. It's like guaranteed editorial coverage of an ad campaign which like you don't get if it's a nothing model, you know, a no name model or something.

[B]

100%. And I think that like, yeah, advertisers especially have kind of caught on to that, that trick of getting PR coverage because yeah, you will, you will not get covered in, you know, People magazine unless your child is somehow related to some other celebrity.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So yeah, it just seems like this Paris Fashion Week was a real breaking point for all the regular working models as they started posting these tiktoks against them. And I guess the two most famous, two most famous walks that happened during this Paris Fashion Week was Romeo Beckham, who's the son of David and Victoria Beckham, walked at Balenciaga. Did you see that?

[A]

I did see that, yes. I'm just like struggling to remember actually what he looks like. But I remember seeing it and being like, oh, a Beckham boy.

[B]

Sure. He is extremely generic looking, so that is fair. He looks kind of like any other blonde British boy. But they dressed him up in these big wide leg jeans and little polo top that was like a crop top. So you saw his belly and he had these big futuristic blackout sunglasses on. I actually thought the casting was extremely good for that. In that case, like, I don't usually like a Nepo baby casting, but there's something about him for that one. You couldn't really tell who he was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I think is fun. I think anytime you can't really recognize the famous person anymore, that's a good casting. It's also very unexpected. He hadn't done any modeling before this and doesn't seem to have any real interest in pursuing modeling. So it is very much a one off stunt. Also to me he looked exactly like an Abercrombie and Fitch model and I.

[A]

Think very chic right now.

[B]

I talk about this a lot with Balenciaga and the newsletter, but I think Balenciaga is always at its best where it's doing these kind of like meta camp commentaries on stereotypes. So it's like you're getting this Abercrombie and Fitch model, but he's actually British and he's actually Gen Z or Alpha or whatever he is. You know, I mean, like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It kind of plays with the traditional tropes of what, what you expect. And I think they're very good at that. And then the other big famous one that people were very angry about, that I assume is the kickoff point for a lot of these tiktoks as well, was Sunday Rose, who's Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban's 16 year old daughter.

[A]

This one surprised me because I feel like she's always been so out of the spotlight.

[B]

Yes, for sure. But also I'm not sure. Sunday Rose is maybe their eldest daughter.

[A]

I think so.

[B]

So maybe it's also just that she's like come of age now and is like interested in pursuing these things and so they're giving her these opportunities in the spotlight now. But she walked for Miu Miu. She actually opened the Miu Miu show. Which for those who don't know, yeah, opening and closing fashion shows is an incredibly big deal somehow still it seems to really matter in the industry and she opened the show and she's never done any sort of modeling before. She's never walked for anyone, she's never posed for anyone before. And yeah, people did not like it. Which I thought was interesting. I mean, to me the, what the real problem is is her walk was very bad.

[A]

I mean that is a problem when the, when it's kind of the main.

[B]

Thing that is a problem. People are also complaining about her appearance. But honestly, I think if, if you have an eye for like what high fashion models look like, she does fit the bill. Honestly, like she is. It's a little off.

[A]

I have to look her up. I like cannot remember her face.

[B]

You know, I think people, when they think model, they think these very traditional, rigorous beauty standards. And of course that's true, but when it comes to like really high fashion Runway girls, I think that the more kind of like off your beauty is like the more eccentric it is. Like it's kind of, that's really what they look for. And I do think Sunday Rose has that. However, her walk was very, very tough.

[A]

I think she has a high fashion face. You're right.

[B]

I think she has a very high fashion face, so I thought that was kind of an unfair critique.

[A]

I think she has a high fashion face, but I would do less makeup. It feels like there's, like, too much makeup for a Runway.

[B]

Yes. And also, I mean, this is not. How do I put this? This is kind of a bad trait that Miu Miu has. But Miu Miu is the little sister brand of Prada. And so they do often cast girls who are childlike, who look very, very young. I think most famously, people might recall they had a campaign starring Mia Ga that was very controversial and I believe actually got pulled in the UK because they thought it was implying kind of like preteen pedophilia.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

She's basically. She just looks very much like a little girl, and she's kind of sitting on beds in empty rooms suggestively. I do see people. I do see the problem that people have with it, for sure, but that is kind of Mew. Mew's MO Is, like, very girly, and I think Sunday Rose very much fits the aesthetic that they always try and cast for. Anyway, she has a bad walk. And it also reminded me of when we got Kaia Gerber's Runway debut. I don't know if you recall that.

[A]

No. Where was it?

[B]

My sick mind. She made her debut also at 16 for Alexander Wang when he held that show that was in Bushwick, that was, like, on the streets.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And all the fashioners were, like, losing their mind because they're like, I have to go where I have to stand in the middle of the streets of Bushwick, like, I will ever get home. But let me say, Kaia Gerber, she may be a Nepo baby, but when she came off that Alexander Wang bus, I have never seen a harder walk. Like, maybe in the last decade, she absolutely murdered the Runway in a way that put all the other Nepo girls to shame. And so, like, I'll just say, sometimes the Nepo babies, they do. They do do their job. But so Sunday really just needed a movement director, which is a job that exists that. I don't know if people outside the industry know that job exists, but. Oh, yeah, it's. It's like, if you've ever seen America's Next Top Model, like Miss J, I.

[A]

Was just going to say my reference would be Miss J or, like Miss Congeniality, when they have the pageant coach who teaches you how to walk.

[B]

Yes, exactly. So Miss J is kind of like the OG Movement director, but they're usually either former models or current models or a lot of times dancers who just, like, understand the body and how to hold it in space and move and kind of match the collection, match the brand identity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, she should have hired one of those. I mean, most famously, Emilia Gray, the daughter of Lisa Renault, worked with a movement director before she did the Runway for Versace. And it was a game changer. People literally were talking about how good. Yes. They were talking about, like, the evolution of her walk and how crazy better it got in that show. And it was all because, yeah, she worked with movement director.

[A]

I worked with her once when I. I was like, a marketing director at, like, a fashion brand when she was just coming up and we hired her and her sister for one of our campaigns, I think. So it wasn't walking, but it was in front of the camera. And I was. I was actually impressed with her at the time. I was like, oh, she's great.

[B]

Yeah, she's not a bad model. But, yeah. And so then we start getting these TikToks from other working models. There's specifically, there's a format on TikTok where you start and you say, I lied. Put your clothes back on. And then you give some, like, hard truth or something that people, like, don't want to have a conversation with you about. So this one model posted, I lied. Put your clothes back on. We will talk about how crazy nepotism and modeling currently is. How millions of very hardworking, truly beautiful women don't get access even to castings, because all big jobs are pre reserved for we all know who. We all know who in all caps. And I just. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's interesting, especially when you're talking about an industry like modeling that is, like, inherently very unfair.

[A]

I know. The truly beautiful women line really makes me laugh a little bit.

[B]

Right. And modeling isn't kind of largely based off interpersonal relationships and access and genetics, of course. I don't know. It's just. I don't know. I thought it was an interesting comparison. And it also does underscore, though, that modeling is a real job that does require a real specific set of skills as well, which I think a lot of people tend to obfuscate when they talk about modeling as a profession. But I will say, as someone who has worked on set with both some of the most successful models in the world and girls just trying to get off the ground, there is a marked difference.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. I always remember working with this one big Model. And it was. Every single frame was a different pose. Every single frame was a different facial expression and energy, like an attitude. And I was like, oh, right. Oh, okay. This is what you get paid for. Like, that. I couldn't even think of that many poses if you gave me all day.

[A]

Yeah, no, it is. I mean, it is truly a skill set. And I mean, I'm thinking of, like, you know, back in the day when I was a little bit more well versed in fashion and what was going on, like, even before Nepo, models, like, were all over the place. There were probably only, like, maybe 5 to 10, like, big models that I could name off the top of my head. So it does, I don't know, make sense that, like, now that those people are all people who haven't inherited sort of their fame, they're taking up those spots. Because how many. How many, like, truly famous models is the average person going to be able to be like, oh, that's so and so. That's. That's so and so.

[B]

And I can definitely see why that's frustrating. But at the same time, like most, the vast majority of models will never, ever become that. You know, it's going into acting and expecting you're going to be the next Julia Roberts. It's like, sure, you know, one of you will, but, like, the overwhelming amount of you. Nothing will come of this. And you will have to, like, find different types of. I don't know. It's just a. It's an interesting, complicated question, I think.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's true. It's like fighting for one spot rather than five spots. It's like, that was. It's always a. That was never going to be easy.

[B]

And also just fighting to be with an industry that's, like, so sick and toxic to begin with. Like, maybe you don't even want these spots. Like, you might not even want to be in these positions. Like, the way the fashion is. I don't know. Yeah, it's not pretty.

[A]

No.

[B]

Especially for the girls who don't have name recognition. Especially for the ones who don't have recourse to, like, tell on photographers and tell on how they're treated. And, you know, it's much more dangerous as well for everyone else.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. I'm thinking about, you know, the models of yore and the. The heroine chic aesthetic a lot lately, especially after the Washington Post article that came out a couple weeks ago about the ballet body. The quote, unquote, ballet body being in.

[B]

We are culturally circling right back around.

[A]

I feel like, no, I mean, a hundred percent. So this article, the headline was plastic surgeons say the ballet body is in. And it's talking about how this, you know, really, like, thin, willowy aesthetic is back and how it's driven by the use of GLP1s, like Ozempic. And then in the plastic surgery space, liposuction, breast reduction, or small implants and tummy tucks are trending. And like, that's one thing. We can talk about that. We can talk about the problems with that. But the, the thing that I can't stop thinking about is like, do words just not mean anything anymore? Like, why is this a ballet body? Like, ballet is not part of crafting this aesthetic. This is a surgical blade body. This is a surgery body.

[B]

A great point. I feel like this sickness came from fashion too. Because remember, fashion started doing this with all our cores. Like, everything was norm cor gorb core. Like, you know, and we started labeling everything really strictly that way. And then I feel like beauty caught on and they're like, oh, yeah, us too. We do that too. We create trends that aren't really trends. Like a ballet body.

[A]

Right, right. And so, yes, the, this idea of the ballet body that's actually a surgical body definitely makes me think of how, like, cosmetic doctors and just the beauty media always claim that injectables or surgery can give you, quote, natural looking results. And I feel like this is coming to. It's always been there, but it's really obvious lately. Like, some recent headlines I've seen one from Allure is how to use filler without looking like you use filler. I'm getting. I got a PR pitch about achieving a natural appearance with under eye filler. Another pitch about how Gen Z is embracing minimally invasive procedures to prioritize natural subtle enhancements. And then the kicker, a press release about the uptick in patients seeking reversals or like botched surgeries did not result in, quote, natural looking results. Going to this certain plastic surgeon to.

[B]

Like, so weird when all these unnatural things I do don't resolve a natural appearance.

[A]

Yes, you will just. You will never receive a natural looking outcome from injectables in surgery. Like, these things don't look natural. Even if you think they do look like what the culture has told you natural looks like. But, like, it's meaningless. Like, natural does not have one look.

[B]

It's very no makeup makeup to me.

[A]

Exactly. It's completely no makeup makeup. And I think it's just like, oddly conservative like, this focus on looking natural even as you do unnatural things. But, like, prioritizing natural as the ideal, like, like reinforces this idea that natural is better. Like, natural is the goal. And that has, like, evolved into some very problematic ideas before, especially in regards to, like, vaccines, medicines, food, et cetera. And so I just, like, it feels very odd at this cultural moment for like a sort of liberal leaning media, especially in the beauty space, to really be hyping up the allure of natural looking. Like, when are we going to evolve past that? And like, when are we just going to admit that, like, natural doesn't mean anything? Even if you think it looks natural, it actually looks procedural because that's what a procedure looks like.

[B]

It's also just interesting how it really lays bare, like, just that these are trends, like, to sell you things, you know what I mean? Like, they're not trying to optimize your body to be your ideal version of your body. You're trying to optimize your body to fit into whatever culturally is, like, cool and trendy at the time. Because now we have the, like, surgical technology to flip your body this way and that way with the wind. I don't know, it's just very funny that, you know, not funny, but all these women going through all of these surgeries to get a fuller figured body. Right? Because that was what was trending with the Kardashians. And now it's like, well, everyone has it, so we have to move the goalpost again. And now it's actually the opposite. So you have to get all these surgeries to go the opposite way and be this different body and it will switch again. You know, like, we will swing back the other way because that's how you make money. You know, if one body, if we just accepted all body types or we sticked with one right, as the ideal, nobody profits.

[A]

I know. Yeah. This, this article about the ballet body and this, this hype around the ballet body definitely made me think of, like, I don't know, it was probably like two or even more years ago now when, you know, the Kardashians were noticeably, like, getting thinner. People were speculating, like, had they taken out their, their butt implants, their breast implants? Like, it was very obvious that this was shifting. And I remember reading so many articles at the time that were like, these are just people. Like, this doesn't mean that thin is in. Like, why are we scrutinizing these people and predicting that, like, this huge shift is going to happen? And I'm like, it. But it did, though. It did.

[B]

Just to not critically analyze that is also to do such a disservice to the figures they are in the world and the impact that they do have on our beauty standards. Like, that is insane.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Like, you saw a rise in bbls in direct correlation to Kim's ass. Like, you saw a rise in lip filler in direct correlation to Kylie's lip filler. Like, to ignore that and pretend like, the way they shift their body doesn't shift all of our bodies.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's just crazy to me.

[A]

And I think it needs to go beyond, like, oh, thin is in. And thin bodies are, like, bad or inherently unhealthy or something. Like, I don't like that part of it either. And it's not like critiquing one celebrity's weight loss. But just thinking critically about how shifts in celebrity bodies and celebrity ideals do affect the wider public. We don't have to personally cancel everyone who loses weight who's in the public eye. But I think it's important to look at, like, okay, this is driving trends for regular people. This is increasing pressure for regular people and it is resulting in, like, this plastic surgery boom of the quote, unquote ballet body, which, like, does come with consequences. It comes with physical and psychological consequences.

[B]

Absolutely. And we can't pretend that the media we consume has no real life ramifications. Like, even the heroin chic body, like that was. Had real life ramifications. Right. Like, it led to this time of, like, profound rampant eating disorder and like, really just disordered relationships to women's bodies for an entire generation.

[A]

I mean, multiple generations.

[B]

Multiple, yeah, multiple generations for sure. But yeah. I don't know. It's always weird to me when people try to minimize, you know, these women as just making regular choices, just as, like a regular girl. It's like, well, most of us aren't billionaires who are on TV every waking moment of the day, you know?

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And are being touted as trendsetters as, well.

[A]

Downstream effects. Yeah. And I mean, I think probably something that doesn't get brought into these conversations as often and so it can seem a little skewed is like, the role the media plays in this. Like, these celebrities can change their bodies whatever. The amount of media attention it gets is just as much a part of the cycle as, like, this, like, one individual famous person's choice. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. You also just remind me, I wrote this essay today about whatever, about Renaissance Fairfall. But part of it, I was thinking about the philosopher Baudrillard. And he was saying that one of the reasons that the upper class is always shifting what's in trend, which includes today with bodies as well. It's a way to flaunt wealth. It's like, even these fixed things, even precious gems, even metals, are disposable to them ultimately. And isn't like being able to change your body on a whim kind of ultimate. Right. The body is disposable, the body is malleable. There is no fixed status of body. And that, as a new signifier of wealth, is very interesting to me.

[A]

Totally. And that's, like, a huge part of why this, like, language of the ballet body bothers me so much, is because it obscures how this body is actually achieved, which is like, tens and tens and maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars of investment in the cosmetic manipulation of the body. Like, of course, it's a class marker. Everything about beauty is. Is about class, actually.

[B]

Yeah. And also, even just thinking from a fashion perspective, like, when I first noticed the Kardashians body starting to change in terms of, like, slimming down, I was like, of course. Because this is a direct response to the types of fashion they're trying to wear. Like Kim and Kylie increasingly diving into archival designer pieces. And those pieces come in one very small size, and they are not something that you can get tailored really readily and adjusted to different body types. And so for me, I was like, right, they're changing their bodies to fit into the fashion and to meet, again, the heroin chic standards of the 90s, because those are largely the pieces that they're pulling.

[A]

That's such a cool.

[B]

And so, in a way, the ballet body is quite literally heroin Chicago speak all over again.

[A]

Whoa. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. No. That's so good. I mean, not good. It's, like, a good point.

[B]

And, yeah, it's interesting. It's just very interesting that they're scary. These body trends could be driven. I don't. Yeah. By something. Something like that is very interesting to me. And again, just another pursuit of exclusivity, because the Kardashians are, again, turning towards these 90s archival fashions as a way of, like, this is something that you cannot access. This is beyond being rich. Other billionaires literally cannot access these pieces because you have to have connections, relationships with brands, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. And you have to have the body to get into them to begin with.

[A]

While we're on the subject of the Kardashians, should we talk about the Skibidi toilet necklace.

[B]

I just love this so much. This isn't. I don't even really have anything deep to say about it. I just think it's so goddamn funny the way that north west trolls her mother, Kim Curt Kardashian, to no end and, like, just knows exactly how to push her buttons. Kim just turned 44 this week and was showing off the present that north bought her on Instagram Stories, which is a diamond necklace that's estimated to be worth about $20,000 that says Skippity toilet on it. And I just think it's so beautiful and perfect and useless and insane.

[A]

Useless and insane for sure.

[B]

Yeah. Because it's just, well, one. I was already blown away by the idea that an 11 year old could buy their mother a $20,000 gold and diamond necklace. Like that alone is a pretty wild thought. And then for it to be something like so stupid, so of a very, very specific time, like, so it doesn't even like, have longevity, you know, like, people 10, 20 years from now aren't going to know what a skippity toilet is to even think that's fun. She's also just the completely wrong age demographic for it. But what's also really beautiful about it is Kim was showing it off on Instagram stories and she was like, why did you get me this? And north was like, because you love Skibidi toilet. And that to me is the beauty of, like, the way that she trolls her mother, the way that she, like, undermines her. I don't know, her perfect, perfect Persona where she's like, no, you love this. Disgusting. And I guess I should tell people what a Skibidi toilet is for those who are not. Oh, yeah, Gen Alpha or Hyper Online. It's basically, it's a phrase that comes from this YouTube series about. Oh my God. About a species of like singing human toilet hybrids that are trying to take over the Earth and then they like start this war with like the humanoids that live in the Earth. And so, yeah, Skibidi toilet is born out of that. And now it's just become kind of slang for Gen Alpha. And it can really. It can be applied. It's a catch all, basically. It can be mean. Everything from like, this is really cool to this sucks. I was trying to think of a parallel from art generation. The closest I could think of is like, sick or something like that. Sick, which could be good. Or it could be like, gross. I don't know. It's. That doesn't really cut it though, either.

[A]

That's a good question. No, I can't think of anything.

[B]

What is skippity toilet for millennials? I don't know. Somebody in the comments, please, please answer me.

[A]

Chat. Chime in chat. I have always felt so awkward using slang. Like, it just is not natural for me. So I have like, avoided most, most millennial phrasing and slang in my life just because I feel like such an imposter when I try it.

[B]

I feel, honestly, I have to check myself because I spend so much time online that I start feeling too comfortable with certain phrases and meme formats and stuff. And then I use them and realize nobody has any idea what the hell I'm talking about. And then it's embarrassing for me in that way and I feel like I shouldn't be using it.

[A]

No, I feel like when you use it, at least now it's like, educational. You have like, great headlines that sometimes use like, Internet slang. You know.

[B]

That's true. Thank you so much. I'm trying to educate the elders on what the kids are up to when I. When I understand what they're up to. But yeah, I just love the way that north humbles her mother. She's been doing this for quite a long time. And. And because she recently did an interview magazine cover and like video and they were asking her questions and people on TikTok have been cutting those clips of her with clips of Kim from when she was 11. And people always say that north is Kanye's child, but let me tell you, she is very much Kim's child. They are one to one. Like, Kim is getting fully a taste of her own medicine. And I just, I think that's beautiful. And of course, north has been doing this for a long time. Whether it's, you know, which does make.

[A]

Me a little sad, you know, like all the north and the media stuff just makes me a little sad. Cause it's like, of course she probably wants it. I don't know, I even feel creepy, like, speculating on the like, desires of an 11 year old. I don't know. Just to be in the spotlight from such a young age and to be born into a family with that much like fame and money.

[B]

Of course, how could you possibly understand what it really means or like, what is the nature of, you know, being that famous? Yeah. Seems impossible. But I do love her approach to it, which is really just calling out her mom's bullshit all the time and like, not letting her get out of her.

[A]

You do need more of that.

[B]

She does not let Kim get away with anything. Anything at all. She. I Mean, at the Met gala, she even told Daniel Raspberry, the creative director of Schiaparelli, that the dress he made for her was bad. The dress he made for Kim K. Was bad. And he said that it was. Getting that feedback was his worst nightmare.

[A]

Yeah, no, it would be mine too.

[B]

She's very honest.

[A]

It's nice. It's an admirable quality. I hope she holds onto that.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Speaking of what the kids are up to, Gen Z is apparently canceling a lot of makeup.

[B]

Okay, how so?

[A]

I. Okay, so I think the longer that I write about beauty, the more I realize that my mission in life is maybe just like, getting people to speak accurately about it and, like, matching language to reality. So I'm seeing a lot of headlines about products that are supposedly being canceled by Gen Z. Lots of, like, concealer is canceled, mascara is canceled. And I just feel like it's so, like, misleading and weird. Like, the. The products themselves, like concealer and mascara, with Gen Z in particular, maybe less popular, but it's like the results they aim to achieve are very much still popular.

[B]

Right. I was gonna say. So is the implication of canceled, like, they're just not using it anymore?

[A]

Yeah, the idea is like, the standard.

[B]

Of beauty hasn't changed.

[A]

Exactly, exactly.

[B]

Like, you still want your lashes to look like you're wearing mascara, but you don't want to wear mascara.

[A]

You don't want to wear mascara. Yes, exactly. So it's like.

[B]

And then that way is canceled. Okay.

[A]

These canceled products are just being replaced. Like, concealer is being replaced by like, under eye creams, under eye patches that everybody wears under eye filler. And then they're just like, like they're calling concealer color corrector now. Like, there are just different shades. And so it's like, oh, no, you're supposed to put a color corrector on.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

And then mascara, which is supposedly canceled, is just like, it's being replaced with like, lash tints, lash lifts, lash extensions. Like, we're not.

[B]

So we've just found new procedures to create, quote, unquote, natural version of these things that cosmetics have always been doing.

[A]

And it just strikes me as so weird because it's like, for all the talk, especially in the beau community, about like, makeup being self expression and being fun and just being like this totally, like, amazing hobby. Consumers and the media just still really love the myth that we're using less or we've somehow been liberated from cosmetics, and it's like, we haven't. For every canceled products, like four or five other Categories rise up to replace it. And. And if we are so dedicated to this idea that like, makeup is fun and self expression and skincare is care, why are we still so dedicated to the narrative that it's good to use less or it's somehow like, exciting that concealer is canceled and that it somehow says something about, you know, modern beauty standards? Like, first of all, it doesn't. And second of all, I just feel like it completely undermines the message of most, like, modern beauty content. It's so strange to me.

[B]

It also just reminded me of the beauty, the morning shed thing that we talked about where it's. Yeah. It's like this hack to get around doing all this beauty stuff by doing all this beauty stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, well, you're doing it while you're sleep, so you're not really doing it. You know, it's. It's different, it's easier and it's like. Well, no, it's actually not. It's the exact same stuff. Just overnight.

[A]

It's exactly like the natural looking, you know, quote unquote, natural looking thing from earlier. It's like you perform all the obvious labor when nobody is looking, so you can look as if you haven't done anything. And it's just like we actually have no perception now of what natural is, of what heartless is. Like, those things don't exist anymore at all.

[B]

Yes. That's interesting that we've become so far estranged from what natural actually is that we're. Yeah, it's this reappropriation of a concept of natural that is still unnatural.

[A]

Yeah. Which, like, if there is nothing wrong with being unnatural, which, you know, one, there's not. And two, that does seem to be another message that's often, like, embedded throughout beauty content. Like, don't shame women for getting surgery. Don't shame women for getting injectables. If that's how you truly feel about it, why the need for it to look so natural and undetectable? Like, there's just this huge disconnect in like, behavior and beliefs.

[B]

Well, I think what they're also saying when they say don't shame one for this, I was like, don't shame women for spending money on these products, these surgeries that they might not mean. You know, like, we want to encourage them to do all these things. Don't shame them for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, I just think. I think the word cancel is very interesting to use in this, like, I don't know, on the Internet. Canceling is such a specific thing and such A negative connotation, like, you've done something really wrong and unforgivable, and you need to be, like, expunged from popular society. So it's very funny to say that, I don't know, a beauty product even could be canceled when it's just not being used.

[A]

Right. No, I agree.

[B]

It goes back to your thing of, like, words need to mean something if we're gonna keep using them and applying them.

[A]

And they need to. It's scary how nothing means anything anymore. And it's like, it's made it so confusing to even think about for myself because I'm like, wait.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It'S. It's all so meaningless. I don't know. I'm. I think I'm having an existential crisis on the pod now.

[B]

I can tell you're having a little breakdown. Well, let me. Let me spare you by talking about my favorite type of advertising and branding, which is. I just love. Okay, Anyone who subscribes to the newsletter knows this because I bring it up all the time. But I love staged celebrity paparazzi shots where they are, like, selling something. It's one of my great passions in life. And through the newsletter, I've learned that a lot of people don't know about this, which is.

[A]

That's wild to me.

[B]

Crazy to me, because I don't know how you look at these images and you don't immediately see the logo, and you're like, oh, this. This is an ad for that brand that I'm looking at. But I guess for those who don't know. Well, one, celebrities regularly call the paparazzi on themselves, and they are staged photographs that you're consuming of their outfit or whatever. And then additionally, brands will occasionally pay a celebrity. Well, often, not occasionally, most of the time will pay a celebrity to either carry a product, wear a certain product, often with highly visible logos, go outside in it, and then they will call the paparazzi on them. And then so basically creating an advertisement, you know, a campaign, and then selling that campaign through the photo agency back to media outlets that cover it as though it is genuinely, like an authentic, candid image.

[A]

It makes me think of all the paparazzi shots of Ben Affleck with so many Dunkin Donuts bags spilling out of his hands.

[B]

Oh, my God. You just reminded me. Recently, I saw a Twitter someone tweeted those pictures of Ben Affleck with all the Dunkin nuts spilling out of his hands, but they tweeted out the ad that was actually based on the real original. So how do I Go back and explain this. During the pandemic, Ben Affleck was just at the height of his sad sackness, and he creates the best paparazzi images out of that place. And he was getting all sorts of stuff postmated to his front door. And then he, for some reason, he personally would go and pick it up, I assume to be photographed, because there's no need for him to go to his front door himself and pick that up. But so one of the most famous photos that came out of that is he picked up a bunch of Duck and Doats and then immediately, like, spilled it everywhere. Like, it just exploded out of his arms. And this was a very viral, heavily memed image. And then a couple years later, Ben Affleck actually starts working with Dunkin Donuts as a brand ambassador. And they recreate those exact images, but staged this time and sell it again back to the tabloids as though it's an original thing. And this week, I saw someone tweet out those stage photos and be like, this is so hilarious. And I'm like, they got you. They fully got you. You don't even know the reference photo. And it's like, I don't know. It's just. It worked. Like, they perfectly did it. So anyway, this is a great obsession of mine, and there's been some that I've noticed lately that are so bad and egregious, and it just. I have the same question every time I see them, which is, why are brands so bad at staging reality? Like, it doesn't need to be this hard. And I don't know why it's so hard for them. My number one offenders are always Honey Bunches of oats. I feel that the people, the executives, the marketing executives at Honey Bunches of Votes have never gone grocery shopping. And it shows. Like, they just. They don't know the order of, like, how you even grocery shop. Like, they get so confused in the process. They did this one with Ashley Tisdale.

[A]

Oh, I remember this one.

[B]

Ashley Tisdale is standing at the trunk of her car, but she's loading the box, the cereal boxes, into a tote bag that's also Honey Bunches of Oats logo.

[A]

She brought her Honey Bunches of Oats tote to the right, but she didn't.

[B]

Use the tote bag. Bag, right, but she didn't bag the groceries at the cash register. She's doing it at the trunk of her car and putting them into the tote bag and then putting the tote bag inside of the car. And I'm like, just none of this is how groceries happen. None of this isn't what people do. And also, like, the branded tote bag kind of like gives it all away. And it's always like heavily handed. Like, the logos are facing the camera. There's like 20 boxes of cereal. It's just like, I don't know. Have you ever seen someone grocery shopping? And then they did it again with another slowly crazy Christian Seratos, who I'm not familiar with her, but she also did it and they like, kind of got the order right. At least this time the boxes were already in the branded tote bag.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Just like strategically peeping out of the top in a way that like no box has ever peeped out of the tote bag. And then she randomly had like an orchid behind it.

[A]

I'm like, just grabbing the essentials.

[B]

Just a shopping trip. Like, I understand you don't want other brands in the frame, but like, who is. Is who is going on the shopping trip to get one singular orchid in 10 boxes of honey Bunch? And again, like, where's the milk?

[A]

Right. How is she eating this cereal?

[B]

You could stage this in a smarter, more logical way.

[A]

And I collaborate with a milk brand.

[B]

Exactly. Or even you don't have to show the logo. You could have the gallons of milk with their logo facing the back so it's not on seat. Like, there's a way to Greek this. That's a film thing. But there's a way to do this without the logo showing that. I don't know. You could make it happen. It just drives me nice nuts. Lands End did one with Katie Holmes recently that was equally egregious. They shot it outside with studio lighting so you can. You can like really see whatever. It's the. The bounce is bouncing a little too much. You're seeing everything's a little too well lit, everything's a little too clear. There's never anyone walking through the background.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

Again, hire an extra. I understand you have to get approved. Hire an extra. I just don't get. But my most egregious one recently was Heidi Klu.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I just think it's offensive to Heidi Klum. Basically, Butterfingers hired Heidi Klum to walk around her neighborhood with her two dogs in Butterfinger costumes. And I'm sorry, Heidi Klum is the queen of Halloween.

[A]

She would never use those costumes.

[B]

These lazy ass costumes. She would absolutely never.

[A]

So below her standard.

[B]

It's so below her standard. Like, this woman showed up as a worm, A hyper realistic, slimy worm to A red carpet. And they gave her these like, felt sad, like sandwich board Butterfinger costumes for a dog. I'm like, you are a multi billion dollar conglomerate, like where's all that money going if not into foolish things such as this? I just don't invest in it a little. And because of all of this bad advertising, all this bad sponcon that's happening, it made me again think about the Diet Pepsi of it all from Ash and Ray, which as I think more about it increasingly I believe Diet Pepsi on some level has to be involved, involved in that music video because they're showing the logo on screen and they could not legally show that logo on screen unless Diet Pepsi had signed off on it. On some level. Oh, so on some level this is an ad for Diet Pepsi and it's a damn good one because they let her have full creative license. They let her do these like weird fetish stuff.

[A]

You know what it makes me think of too? This is like another way of her aligning herself with like Britney Spears 100%. Because Britney had like those iconic Pepsi sponsorships.

[B]

Yes, exactly. That is exactly it.

[A]

But she's doing it right. She's doing it right.

[B]

Right. It's a, it's a wink, it's a nod without being like a directly heavy handed, like I am the new Britney. Look at me. And Diet Pepsi also gets to kind of hide their hand in it because they're just like, oh, you know, that's her music video, it's her thing. We didn't sponsor it maybe. But they certainly agreed to let her do all that stuff with their brand and it gives them like a cool edge factor and it taps them into Gen Z in the same way that Britney Spears tapped them into millennials and youth culture at that time.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think it's really smart.

[A]

Yeah, that's interesting.

[B]

And it just makes me more angry at Butterfinger, to be honest with you.

[A]

Yeah. And it makes me like Addison Rae more honestly.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

I think I'm becoming a bit of a fan.

[B]

I know that I'm like an Addison Evangelist, but I do think she's a very interesting modern iteration of what a pop girl is, is and could be. And yeah, one amongst many, I guess, new young girls that I'm into.

[A]

Speaking of brand integrations and collaborations, I am overwhelmed by all of the wicked collaborations.

[B]

It's so much what's happening. It's Barbie on steroids. It's nuts.

[A]

Yes. It's beyond Barbie. I mean, so I'm only taking note of like the beauty collaborations but there's. There's even just in the beauty category, it's so much. So some that I've seen ahead of the Wicked movie are there's like a skincare collab with this brand called Man Yeo, a skincare collab with a brand called Beekman 1802, which is like a goat milk beauty brand. It's such an odd partnership. Like, their whole thing is about goats. I think they had, like, a live stream of, like, baby goats at one point during the pandemic. It. It seems so funny for, like, yeah, a big Hollywood movie to collab with them, but whatever. It Cosmetics is doing a Wicked makeup line. And, like, Wicked makeup brushes. There's OPI nail polish doing Wicked. There's a Conair blow dryer, just like a green blow dryer. A brand called Shark Beauty has like a hair curler, like some sort of styling wand. There's makeup eraser, which is those makeup removing cloths has Wicked branded cloths. There's a Wella hair care collab. And then, of course, most interesting one to me is Ariana Grande's own brand, naturally, which, I don't know, is it rem? REM Beauty or rem?

[B]

I think it's rem. That's honestly the only one that makes any sense to me.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I feel like they didn't say no to anyone.

[A]

No, they said no to nobody. And I thought it was actually kind of interesting because obviously, you know, Ariana's playing Glinda in Wicked. Is this the first time that, like, the movie beauty collaborations have involved a celebrity who does have her own beauty brand? Because I was trying to think back and I wasn't able to come up with anyone, but this could be wrong.

[B]

Yeah, that's interesting. It feels like there must be.

[A]

There must be. But off the top of my head, no one comes to mind. And then it also seems interesting because I'm like, what were the mechanics of agreeing to so many beauty collaborations when Ariana had a brand? And, like, yeah, it seems silly that there's not, like, an exclusive Wicked makeup line through REM Beauty with her. But maybe not, right?

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say, at the very least, an exclusive on the cosmetics.

[A]

I would love to see some data on how the REM Beauty collaboration is selling compared to the other beauty collabs. So, yeah, I mean, I do think the volume of this definitely like, rivals.

[B]

Or outdoes Barbie, but it seems insane to me.

[A]

It's wild.

[B]

Just like everywhere I turn, I see a new Wicked Collab product. I mean, I'M thinking about Rimowa made like suitcases that are just pink and green.

[A]

Suitcase. I mean, Baez, what's Shay Mitchell's brand? They did like travel things. Stanley obviously did the Tumblers.

[B]

Honestly, my breaking point point was the Rae Dunn collaboration. Oh, my gosh. Are you familiar with Ray Dunn?

[A]

Yes, unfortunately I am.

[B]

Ariana posted a picture with the Rae Dunn Wicked collab mug. And for some reason, that was my final straw. That broke my brain. I couldn't. I can't tolerate that.

[A]

Wait, okay. You know the weirdest one that I saw and I was. I wondered if you had any thoughts on it. Eugenia Kim did a line of like high fashion hats in collaboration with Wicked.

[B]

I think Eugenia Kim has some like, inside track on these weird movie collabs. Because. Because I can't remember specifically, but I feel like in the past she's done like a weird Disney movie rollout. Yes. Collections as well. I feel like she's often doing a weird sort of film collaboration. So that makes sense.

[A]

Okay, that makes more sense because it just seemed so bizarre.

[B]

I mean, it doesn't. None of it makes any sense.

[A]

I know. I think my, like, my only thought on all of this is just like, if this is the new norm for big movies, it's actually like truly frightening. Like, this is just all destined for a landfill. It's so over the top. It is so wasteful.

[B]

Yeah. And it seems to have no longevity, really, beyond the press cycle for the film itself. I mean, like, think about all that Barbie stuff and do you see people wearing Barbie things these days? I certainly don't. Yeah. And it's very dated. It's of a very specific time. It tells you exactly the year it was purchased, you know, just by a glance. And people tend to hate that in their fashion. Yeah. It's very strange to me. And it also just makes me wonder, like, why make the movie at all? You know, like, why not just make the product? Like, it seemed like the movie is kind of the afterthought. Like the product is the main part. Like you should just make a whole Wicked themed mall then filled with Wicked themed. Like, why are we making entertainment? Why are we pretending that, like, the movie is the point and this is just fandom that's driving the rest of this.

[A]

The products are the point.

[B]

The product is the point. So. So let's just skip the middleman.

[A]

Honestly. Honestly. But yeah, I don't have any big thoughts on that. I'm saddened. I'm saddened by the amount.

[B]

Yeah. I've also clocked the just vast quantity of things being sold to me about this movie and how wild it is and what that bodes for the future of kind of movies with big IP like this, which we're already seeing. I mean, they already got Margot Robbie. She's making that Sims movie.

[A]

Oh my God. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, she's just turning more toys into film franchises because I'm sure they'll get sequels and stuff too. Right?

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And it's like. Right. Because they already have the product and now they can just riff off that product endlessly under the guise of it being because of the movie, but actually just to make product.

[A]

Just consumerism.

[B]

Pretty cool.

[A]

Love it. Should we. Should we move on to the Victoria's Secret fashion show?

[B]

Yeah. Talking consumerism.

[A]

I'm so excited to hear your thoughts.

[B]

Yeah. The Victoria's Secret show happened and it did not need to happen. Really. That's kind of, I think everyone's takeaway from it. I just. Yeah. My primary thought is it's just hilarious to me how big it flopped considering in the lead up to it, all of the Victoria's Secret executives were talking about how, oh, it was, you know, their dalliance with wokeness that really caused the last one to flop. That's why the last one was a failure because we were trying to do something new and modern and woke like ugly nude bras.

[A]

What is woke about that? I don't know.

[B]

Well, I don't know if you saw, but the angels were walking through the streets of New York. You don't remember the campaign for the, for the last Victoria's Secret show when they tried to bring it back where it was like Julia Fox with wings, like drinking a bodega. Coffee. Coffee.

[A]

No, I don't remember this at all.

[B]

I feel like people really blacked out.

[A]

I think they did.

[B]

People really did not care in that way. I guess Victoria's Secret was right because their last attempt at a comeback, nobody seemed to even notice. But yeah, they cast a bunch of kind of like, I don't even want to say regular women because they're not regular. They're still famous people.

[A]

Like non lingerie models.

[B]

Yeah, non professional. They cast a bunch of non professional lingerie models and then they kind of just like. Well, it was twofold. One the kind of lead up rollout campaign was they situated them in like real life New York City stuff. So it was just the girls kind of walking around with these fake angel wings, like going about their day to day life, getting paparazzi. And so they were trying to Be like, they're just like you. It's like regular. See? And then they also tried to do like. Basically they tried to pull a Fenty and do like an Amazon exclusive immersive spectacular.

[A]

Oh, was it? It was streamed.

[B]

Yeah, it was streamed. And it was more pre recorded, less Runway, more kind of like sexy scenarios, I guess is how I would describe it. With like, musical interludes.

[A]

No interest in watching this at all.

[B]

Yeah, fair enough. Nobody did. And that was kind of the problem. And so Victoria's Secrets executives interpreted that as a response not to the fact that no one cares about this brand or their output, but rather no one liked the regular non professional lingerie models wearing their underwear. And so they're like, you know what, let's go back. Let's go back to our roots. Let's get the good old gals out again. Let's get a Runway out there and let's do exactly what we've always done at a time where it's never been less relevant to what everyone is doing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's what they did.

[A]

Except for the nostalgia factor, which I feel like is probably a big part of it. Like, I feel like nostalgia for the, like, 2000s, early 2000s is so strong right now.

[B]

Absolutely. And I think literally the only thing they did right was bringing back the OG Victoria's Secret girls at their current ages.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which are well outside.

[A]

I have some thoughts on that.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I really was bothered by the headlines and, like, general feedback about the age inclusivity of the show and how it celebrated aging women. It's like, yes, they had models in their 40s and 50s, like, on the Runway, like, Tyre Banks, Adriana Lima, Alessandra Ambrosio, Ava Herzigova. Like, they're all in their 40s and 50s. And there was so much hype about, like, oh, my God, older women on the Runway. And I just say, like, it's not celebrating aging women if you're celebrating them for how young they look.

[B]

Also exclusively aging women who are like, like the. Some of the biggest, most successful professional supermodels of all time, like, Irina Shayk is not a normal 40 something year old to have, you know, to be an example.

[A]

It's just like an. An equal but opposite glorification of youth. And like, I think they deserve no credit for age inclusivity because it's like every model looks like the generic, like, 31 year old. Like, absolutely. You know, we're in this era where everyone has the same, same, like, eerily ageless face now. And so what did we learn about aging from that? Oh, that you can still, like, look really hot if you funnel all of this money into your body with the.

[B]

Help of a very good doctor.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Like that's with professional intervention.

[A]

That's not a celebration you can look.

[B]

Good at 40 years old. Yeah, it definitely was not. I would not qualify this as a celebration of aging or. And I was not impressed by the age of their Victoria's Secret models that they've been using for the last 20 years. But I do think from a nostalgia branding perspective, it was smart to remind people of, like, what was appealing about this brand to begin with and why people were so captivated by these runways to begin with. And again, I mean, talk about nepo baby models, but when you see the OGs, I do think you get a clear vision of, like, why they were so good at their job. I don't know. For seeing Tyra Banks close, the show for me was like a revelation. I was like, oh, right.

[A]

No, she's fabulous. And they did her so dirty with that outfit.

[B]

They did her incredibly dirty. Okay, first, a compliment for Tyra. Face card undeniable. Like, just bone structure. Insane. The walk out of this world, like, personality for days. Like, there is no personality in catwalking anymore. And she brought it. And in such a classic. I don't know. She used to talk about this all the time on America's Next Top Model. But it's like you have to match the personality of the brand when you do the catwalk. And Victoria's Secret is so bubbly, feminine, upbeat, smiley. And she just is. She nails that so well. And none of the girls even cracked a smile on that Runway. And I don't know, it's just so telling. But yes, the outfit they put her in, the outfit they put all the plus size women in, I found all of them to be quite insulting, offensive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It's just like they think they're really Victoria's Secret, clearly thinks they're really slick with and how they're like obscuring these girls bodies under different garments and costumes and styles, and they're just not slick with it at all. It's just so obvious what they're doing and they're trying to hide these bodies that don't align with their standards.

[A]

Right. And I mean, I can see a scenario in which models maybe ask for more coverage.

[B]

Yes. Especially in Tyra's case. I was like, I can totally see Tyra. You know, she's been retired for 20 years. I can see her being like, you know, I'd feel a little more comfortable, a little more coverage. But there's also a way, an attractive way to do that versus leggings.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. I think, like, these designs did not live up to the possibilities of just like, Runway level garments.

[B]

I guess we should say, for those who haven't seen Tyra Banks finale costume, it was full length leggings, I believe a long sleeve with then a brassiere kind of bursting out of the top of the top. And then an optical illusion corset that was absolutely designed, I mean, with chevron patterns. Absolutely. Meant to make her look slimmer.

[A]

It gave me circus vibes. To me.

[B]

Yes. Very big top circus vibes. And then she had a huge cape kind of covering all of it in case that wasn't making her invisible enough. And yeah, they did that with. With many of the plus sized girls. Just kind of pieces, weird pieces of fabric across the abdomen. Just stuff that was clearly trying to hide the bias. They didn't like. What I did like, I guess I should also say is that they did cast two trans models, Alex Consani and Valentina Sampeo. And that is sadly, an enormous step forward for Victoria's Secret, whose. I don't know. I guess he's. His former president at Resnick, said that they would never, never cast plus size women or trans women because they don't belong on the Victoria's Secret catwalk, as though it's some exclusive crazy thing. Horrible. And yeah, I also just found the lingerie to be cheap.

[A]

I was kind of shocked because, I mean, I've always been like, a big fan of Emmanuel Alt who styled it. Right.

[B]

Yes. I was also very surprised by that.

[A]

And I was very surprised. I expected, I don't know, something just like more chic, a little like more rock and roll. Messy, sexy. Absolutely. Like, I would say that was the one thing that maybe intrigued me about the idea of the Victoria's Secret show. Before it aired, I was like, oh, I feel like Emmanuel Ault is kind of a big get for this and I would be interested to see what she does. But I didn't. I did not love the styling. And yeah, a lot of the garments looked very cheap.

[B]

Yeah. Emmanuel Alt, for people who are confused, she is the former editor in chief of Vogue Paris and is kind of like, was for a very long time considered to be Anna Wintour's replacement. Um, because she's quite simply better at the job. Yeah.

[A]

And just like an incredible, like, street style star.

[B]

Yes, an incredible street style star. She has just a really Beautiful taste. It's very French, but it's also very rock and roll. It's very sexy. It's a little dirty, a little undone. And so, yeah, when I heard Emmanuel was going to be styling this, I thought, wow, like, that's an exciting get. And she could really take the brand in an interesting direction. Yeah, I feel like they really watered down. I know everything that she's ever done, everything that she's ever stood for. And yeah, the lingerie was quite cheap looking and yeah, I'm sure that's what they sell in the stores. But this is supposed to be like the era of kind of like illusion. This is where you're supposed to kind of go big and like lean into the glamour and the, of the sex appeal. And also like, I don't know, I just kept thinking like, the days of the fantasy bra are like long behind us.

[A]

Yes. I mean, that was just my overwhelming thought is just like, I didn't have super strong feelings about the show. I was not surprised. It was bad. I did not expect anything empowering or progressive from it. And it of course did not deliver any of that at all.

[B]

Although it's funny, they. They couched a lot of like, the lead up to it and the coverage of it in terms of these kind of like feminist, like, this one's for the ladies. Like, we got it this time. Like, you guys are gonna love this. This is all about you and being sexy and in your unique way. And it was like, absolutely not in no capacity is it that.

[A]

No, I know. I feel like it's like the male gaze has been completely like sublimated into, you know, what I, what I call the sail gaze, which is just like, you know, you know, if the male gaze is. Is the internalized circumstance of like living under patriarchy, that the sail gaze is like the internalized drives that put in us by living under capitalism. And it's just like, yes, you have. Have be sexy by consuming, which is, you know, not only like the lingerie and the outfits, but also consuming your way into that kind of body, which requires a lot of like, product and procedural intervention.

[B]

Right. And like consuming this idea of sexy as it's defined by the male gaze. I don't know, it's. It's a very. Yeah. A lot of the time I spent looking at the Victoria's Secret show, I was thinking like, maybe they just need to rethink like what is actually sexy to women versus what men think is sexy about women and trying to sell that to us as the concept of sexy. Like, I do think. I don't know, they might be a lot more powerful with.

[A]

Or just be straightforward, that this is not about feminism or empowerment. And, like, this is for when you want to look hot for your man, because there's still a really big market for that. And at least that's like, kind of on. If you want to contort your body to fit into what's expected of you in the bedroom, use us. Like, I don't know.

[B]

Or even just be honest. That this show is for men. Yeah, largely. Which again, is why I've always thought that it's kind of an. An antique idea. Because, I mean, you know, pornography exists, the Internet exists now. You know, Playboy's gone under. Like, we. We don't, as a society really need these kind of big cultural excuses to see hot women walking around in their underwear. They're doing it for free on Instagram.

[A]

Yeah, that's everywhere.

[B]

Yeah. But I do think maybe if they just kind of leaned into the. The chauvinism of it all, even, like, they'd get canceled, but maybe in kind of an incredible PR way.

[A]

Right, right. Which. Which reminds me of this amazing quote that I read from Lauren Sherman, who writes a newsletter for Puck about fashion and. And. And she has a new book called Selling Sexy, all about Victoria's Secret, but she was Interviewed by Amy O'Dell in back row, and she said, I think we're overestimating the consumer's desire to be associated with brands that they think are morally superior.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And I think that's, like, such a great point with this. Like, I really don't think Victoria's Secret would see much of a sales slump if they dropped the, like, faux feminist language. And I don't think consumers are, like, really needing or expecting that from them. And I think I also read somewhere or heard it on a podcast talking about this book that, like, yeah, Victoria's Secret had this big moment a couple of years ago where they were, you know, quote, unquote, canceled and. And had to go through this whole rebrand or whatever it was. But, like, sales didn't really slump.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it's like, you know, we're just talking about image here. We're not talking about people being like, I will never buy from this brand again.

[B]

Yeah. So in which case, it's like, why not lean into the kind of sleazeball, corny sex cells angle of it all kind of, you know, even though we've talked before about people being very nostalgic for that 90s, early aughts time in Abercrombie and Fitch ads as lensed by Bruce Weber, who was accused of sexually assaulting many, many of those models who featured in those images. But it's like, like, I don't know, maybe. Maybe that's the root for Victoria's Secret as well, is kind of leaning into that really graphic, sexy male gaze angle because it doesn't seem to be.

[A]

And it's kind of like what they're doing anyway. Yeah, right, exactly.

[B]

It's just making it more overt what they're already doing. And stop even trying to pretend to pander to women as this being like an exclusively female and female empowering experience. And also, I just. I. One final beef that I have with the. With the Runway is what was going on with the wings. They need to. They need to figure out their angel business, and they need to figure it out fast. I did not understand their choice and who got wings and who didn't. And again, maybe for those who don't know, like, being a Victoria's Secret angel used to mean something.

[A]

Words used to mean things.

[B]

That's right. Well, basically, it was like a big deal within modeling to get selected to be in the Victoria's Secret one way show. And that was an even bigger deal to be selected as an angel who gets to wear the angel wings on the Runway. And that's like an elite squad of mega supermodels. You know, like, you have to work with the brand for a long time. You have to be a certain, like, yeah, level of pop culture figure, blah, blah, blah. And so that used to be a big honor to be to graduate basically from a model to an angel. And this year, they just gave everybody wings. But then also, like, didn't give half of the OG girls wings. Like, Irina Shayk didn't have wings. Ava Herzegova didn't have wings. Wings. And then meanwhile, Lila Moss, Kate Moss's daughter, has wings with her name in it.

[A]

How did Lila get wing? It doesn't.

[B]

You know, it's Kate. I personally think Kate signed a contract agreeing to do the show on the stipulation that her daughter got cast and her daughter got some kind of, like, spotlight moment. Is my personal fan theory, because Kate Moss also doesn't make any sense at all as a Victorian. Oh, that is the weirdest choice in casting.

[A]

See, this is where it would have been cool to lean into, like, the Kate Moss Emanuel alt. Even, like, if we want to go to nostalgia, why didn't they go, like, indie sleaze nostalgia? Like, I would have loved to See, something like that. I mean, I don't know. Loved is maybe a strong word, but, like, it would have been an interesting direction to take it with, like, the talent that you had or get more.

[B]

Of those kinds of, like, super high fashion girls. Like, where's Naomi? Where's Shalom? Arlo? Yeah, A Claudia Schiffer, even.

[A]

My final little thought on this is like, the other. The other thing that's frustrated me about the coverage of it and maybe unfairly, because Victoria's Secret is fashion and not necessarily beauty. Although their beauty section is big now, too.

[B]

Yeah, the perfumes. You kidding me?

[A]

Yeah. My frustration is that, like, while there was some body inclusivity in the show with plus size models and trans models, there is just, like, absolutely no diversity from the neck up. And that has just not entered into any of these conversations about the Victoria's Secret show and what it might say about beauty standards today. Like, there's been a lot of talk about this, like, these steps in diversity, but it's like, diverse in that, like, you know, seemingly expansive but ultimately very narrow way of beauty industry marketing, where it's like, okay, white skin and brown skin, but always clear skin. CIS bodies and trans bodies, but always hairless bodies. Like, you know, younger models and older models, but always eerily ageless models who are doing something specific to look that way. Like, I really want the face to be brought into debates about diversity. And best of luck to you.

[B]

Fashion does not care.

[A]

No, it doesn't. It doesn't and it never will.

[B]

But no, it's interesting point, though, because I do feel like ageism is kind of always the very, very, very last consideration in fashion. Like, when they talk about diversity on the run way, or they talk about inclusion, we're literally on step one. Like, we're trying to get races.

[A]

Yes. Right.

[B]

We haven't even made it to bodies yet. We made it to bodies for one hot second, and then we immediately retracted back to the norm. The norm being, you know, size double zero women. But yeah, yeah, the face literally never comes into it. Age is. I mean, the. I'm even trying to think of older models, and it's like they're extreme exceptions. I'm thinking about, like, Elon Musk.

[A]

I was just gonna say Maye Musk.

[B]

Is like, she is always the, like, one older model who's ever included, if they ever include an older model or. Right. Or these supermodels who are weirdly ageist but are also only being cast because of who they were when they were 20, because of who they are when.

[A]

They were 20 and because they still.

[B]

Look a lot look like they're 20.

[A]

Younger than they are. And that's always like part of the conversation too.

[B]

Yeah, it's an interesting point though that, that is always completely. I mean people don't even bring that up. No, no, nobody has like something that needs to change or something that should be happening in fashion. I guess we got, we have some real big fish to fry in fashion casting. So.

[A]

Yeah, no, there's a lot, there's a lot going on there.

[B]

Shall we move on to the survival of the state of media as we know it?

[A]

Let's talk about journalism. Is it dead? Can it survive?

[B]

It's dead. I hate to burst all these people's bubbles, but I think it's a little bit dead, at least as we knew it.

[A]

Right, well, so there was this big article, well, series of articles, like a whole issue I guess really of New York magazine this week that was called can the Media Survive? That Talked to like 50 something like elite media personalities about, about the state of journalism. And yeah, some interesting, some interesting things were said. I think my, my first thought when I was reading this like, you know, sad state of journalism article from New York magazine was just like. Although my rate has since been bumped up significantly, the first time I freelanced for New York magazine I was paid like $250 for a 2,000 word piece. So like part of why, why media is dying if it is journalists can't support themselves on rates like that.

[B]

Yeah, it's quite literally an unsustainable profession because. Yeah, you're right, my rates have also gone up. A very, very, very standard starting rate is $250 for any number of words. Yeah, yeah, no, it didn't matter from 500 to 2000. And that is not sustainable. That is an amount of labor for an amount of money. That doesn't make any sense. And you can't not be a full time professional writer at these rates. Yeah, I also, my main quibble, I guess with this and takeaway is I, I don't know. Speaking from personal experience at working at a lot of these big media institutions, these people who they're asking this question of are the very people who know the absolute least about like just the practical everyday runnings of a website, of a magazine, of a newspaper. They tend to be the least like hands on, involved and often have some very strange ideas about what makes it successful and what makes it unsuccessful. And also are often business people. They're not writers necessarily. A lot of time they're not creatives a lot of the time. And so they are thinking of it from a business perspective. Of course it is a business, but it's also. It's a business based on journalism and creativity. And I think that that is often lost in this conversation.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's a good point. What stuck out to me was the advertising section of the issue. And I think it's just like none of it was shocking, but it's good things to like, remind ourselves of. So there was one quote from an anonymous editor, and this editor was talking about advertising and like, the challenges of advertising and how that contributes to. To sort of like the stories that are told. And they said, you want to write about Hamas and Israel. No one's going to advertise against that. If you write a story about a female entrepreneur who's made it up from poverty, I can sell infinite ads. And I think that's just like, it's so sad. And it's also just like, really important to keep in mind, like, whatever you're reading, like, there is incentive behind the scenes to tell some stories versus others.

[B]

And is that also not very much part of the problem of the whole media industry, that is that we can't tell and important stories because you can't sell ads across from them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And honestly, also, when I was reading that, I was thinking about you and your newsletter and it's like you have proven them wrong. Like, right. You know what I mean? You start a whole newsletter called the Unpublishable because you literally can't publish this type of stuff. You say against ads because everything is bought by advertisers, everything is bought by celebrities. And then your success, your ability to support yourself, find your own audience is proving the very thing that they believe wrong. And you have now, in fact, bent traditional media to your will because you write a column for the Guardian now. You know what I mean?

[A]

Right. I had to change the name of my newsletter because it's so publishable.

[B]

Right. But I just mean, like, you, you undermine the very thing that they're saying and then actually changed them to meet you.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's a very. A nice thought, a nice thing to say. But yeah, reading that did remind me of beauty coverage. Like, I remember having a meeting with the editor in chief of a big beauty magazine in like, 2020, 2021, and we were discussing a potential column of like, personal essays of mine, like, my own experiences in beauty. And then she outlined all the ways that I would have to avoid critiquing products so that the magazine could sell ads on the page. And so obviously, you know, the column never materialized. But, like, whether it's something, like, huge politically or something as small as, like, face wash, what can be advertised against, like, truly, Truly, truly does influence everything that's out there. And I think that was my big takeaway from the New York magazine package, was just like, advertising is clearly the issue. Like, that is the huge issue. And it's frustrating because I'm like, how do we even fix something that's just, like, so foundational to how media. Right. Runs?

[B]

Because, yeah, it's. There's just too many outside forces that all publications are beholden to, like, beyond advertisers. Celebrities as well. Yeah. Anything that you write about, anything that you feature, like, they could pay you one day. I don't know. I. I definitely started thinking about this a lot when I worked at Page Six and also all subsequent places I've worked, because they all want to be Page Six and you cannot. Because the weird, unique position of Page Six is that there are no celebrities on the COVID It isn't beholden to anyone. It's not counting on getting any interview down the line or any, like, feature product or whatever. So they can literally write whatever they want to write and talk honestly and openly about whatever they want. And then I work at other places that want me to replicate that for them. I'm like, you. You literally can't, because next month you need to have whatever Gwyneth Paltrow on the COVID So if I say something bad about GOOP today, like, we're not going to get.

[A]

You have a serious conflict of interest there.

[B]

Right? Yeah. No one seems to understand that. Also, I don't know, it was making me think about. Part of the death of publishing, to me has also always been traffic goals, insatiable traffic goals that will never be met and are always being raised. And even. I don't know. I was talking to another friend in media about this recently who's working at a publication that's trying to expand its reach, trying to rebrand itself as its position within the field of news? And I was like, they were saying, oh, they're trying to get this new audience number. And I was like, but isn't there ever an upper threshold where you've converted as much of the people out there to be your audience that you can convert? You've vertically integrated, like the New York Times has done, into recipes and games and all the stuff that isn't media, that isn't news, trying to attract more and more of an audience. Like, there is an upper limit. There are only so many people online who you're going to come to get a your look at your website. And what happens when we've reached that? Like, our advertisers satisfied? Like, is there any number that is enough? Like, when do we just accept that? Like, this is your audience?

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

This is the number. This is the number. This is how many people you're ever going to get. And it's also why we're seeing all of these media publications turn into the same publication.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Because everywhere I worked now wants to do. I mean, it's all SEO. It's all celebrity tabloid stuff. Right? Because that's what clicks. That's what gets the most people click. That's how they meet those big traffic numbers that they're being demanded from the business side to get. So I'm at Vanity Fair writing about, you know, like weird Kardashian gossip. And I think ultimately that may up your numbers for now, but ultimately that just pisses off your fan base and your audience who's coming for you for a very specific niche and a very specific tone and a very specific type of coverage. And then when they see you're doing the same sort of stuff as people.com, instead of you becoming a competitor with people.com, which is the goal of doing stuff like that, they're just like, ew, you're trashy now. Like a tabloid, like a Page Six, like a people. It just, I don't know. Yeah, it harms the ultimate brand identity versus, like, you got your clicks for now.

[A]

The thing about page views and clicks that your point is making me think of is sort of the benefit of a newsletter, which was a big part of this package too, because it's interesting. Like, I'm thinking now of like, traditional, like, media, how they will send out, you know, their daily newsletter and it'll have like the top five stories. It's so much harder to get someone to like, click your email and then click through to the story. That's like, you have such a steep drop off.

[B]

People don't want to go to a second location with you with a newsletter.

[A]

Yeah, your views are anyone who opens that email as it's delivered. And so that's just like way more eyeballs on the story immediately, which is, you know, I haven't really thought of that as like a benefit of the newsletter specifically before, but no, it's interesting.

[B]

And I also think you can even. Well, it's hard because the New York Magazine had to like take themselves out of this story so they couldn't talk about what they do or like how their company is run within this.

[A]

I know, it was so funny.

[B]

But that's interesting because I would say that what makes New York magazine's whole thing of newsletters so successful is they're very voicey, they're very personality driven and like one writer who's like totally branding that vertical versus it being kind of a generic New York Times or the Atlantic or something where they are just kind of aggregating their news stories for they are their top, you know, their top click stories.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's a good point. There's definitely a couple New York magazine newsletters that I subscribe to and read specifically for the writer.

[B]

Yeah. Brock Collier for me is like immediate click. I am always reading their party reports.

[A]

Yes, A agree.

[B]

But yeah, and then it also just got me thinking about like these institutions want these clicks so bad, but you can't be voicey, you can't have your own personality, you can't have your own identity. And so then they're kind of losing. They're also not paying anyone. Right. And so they're having these writers who I think they taught us all to become brands.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Everywhere I ever worked has taught me to become a brand. Like I have to be on Twitter, I have to be on Instagram, I have to be public facing. I can't just be a by line line that's silently behind the magazine. So then I create this personality for myself on the Internet. But then I can't be that personality in my writing for the publication. And ultimately, I imagine like myself, a lot of other writers become very frustrated with that. They also start reaching whatever cap it is on how much they can make and then they go off on their own ventures, often into newsletters where they get to be themselves and they often make more money than they work at these places. And it's like, yeah, media institutions actually need those types of like star reported whatever big personalities to draw in the big clicks they're looking for. But they like refuse to meet them or cater to them in any capacity in order to keep them at the publication.

[A]

It kind of reminds me of the debate a couple years back about fashion editors as influencers and how like the big fashion magazines sort of had to grapple with their reporters, like navigating brand deals and stuff and sort of reworking those contracts to be like, oh, it's actually good for us brand when our editors are negotiating these like contracts outside of us too.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I feel like on the writing end of that spectrum, they have yet to realize that any of that's a good thing, which is great. I don't know. I think about Advice. When I worked at Advice, we used to have a couple of writers like that, and we would call it like the. The person's name bump because they would write a story and it would be doing, you know, the traffic would be fine. And then they tweet it out or whatever, and you would just see this craz, crazy traffic spike all day going directly to that one story that they sent their, like, millions of followers to. It's like, why don't you want that? And then why are you like, yeah, cannibalizing yourself? Like, you're forcing out all these talents who then become your competitors at their newsletter. Right. Like, covering the same beats, getting the same audience, like, but going directly to their inbox, like we said, you know, like getting that direct read that direct click for relationship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I find it very frustrating all around. As equally frustrating as many of these editors opinions on unions. Oh, my gosh, they are very anti, Very anti union. It really seems to be a big nuisance for them. And again, like, it is because they.

[A]

End up like the top people. Like, yeah, units are sort of meant to be a nuisance to them. Them.

[B]

Right. And again, I think this is kind of the problem with only talking to the top of the top of this industry is they are so wildly disconnected from what's actually happening and the needs of their actual employees and the actual state of journalism. Like, right. The union is supposed to be a nuisance to you, and it's a nuisance because you aren't treating your employees correctly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then meanwhile, in the same article, they're talking about how, like, no one young is talented anymore. That, like, people 15 and 20 years ago were way more talented. And now you have to be, like, their babysitter and their hand holder and you have to be their teacher. And I'm like, yeah, you are supposed to be their teacher.

[A]

It's like, kind of part of your job.

[B]

Yes. And I also just kept thinking, because they were using all these quotes from Big, they kept saying, like, top editors. Of course, none of these people would speak on the record about the, you know, insulting things they're saying about their employees. But I was thinking it's like, right. Like, I was also a bad writer until I had really phenomenal editors edit my work. And then I learned, and then I got better and better, and I have always grown and gotten better under excellent bosses and excellent editors. So if you think that your employees are bad at writing, maybe you're bad at writing, maybe you're bad at editing.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know, like, you are supposed to be their teacher to a certain extent. And it's like, again, you're ignoring, like, we can't go to journalism school anymore.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We, no one can afford it. It's not worth the money. Also, to be honest, it is something you should be able to learn on the job. Honestly, you know, it is stuff that you should be doing by experience. And yeah, writers get better through practice. And also when you're having them just churn out SEO copy all day, every day. Yeah, maybe they are not great at writing your long form stories.

[A]

A lot of the things that you know are getting clicks just don't require like critical thinking as much. Like, so it's like, it's very hard to develop that part of your brain and your skill set when what's required of you on the job is just like aggregating shit from Instagram and Twitter.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

How do you expect us to develop the skills that we need in order to write like hard hitting stories?

[B]

And I thought a lot of this article was talking about like journalism with a capital J. And I was like, that is actually such a small part of what this industry has become. Like, the vast majority of it is, yeah, aggregating stuff from other outlets from. From social media. It's blogging in the most derogatory sense of that word. You know, it is SEO farm. Like, I was thinking about think at one point, they're talking about like the success of Bustle or something. And I was like, right, because Bustle's an SEO farm. Like, I worked there. You just churn out SEO trending topics of the day from every conceivable angle possible so you can farm every possible click on that trending topic. Like, that's the secret.

[A]

No, that's what we did at the Zoe Report when I worked there. Which is part of BDG and Bustle.

[B]

Yeah, I think BDG has a. A format for sure.

[A]

Yeah, like, everything had to be like SEO friendly. I remember specifically pitching stories that I thought were like, cool or like cutting edge or whatever. And it was like, if the story is too new to have SEO value, they don't want it. Like, they're not into breaking news. They're not into fresh perspectives. If somebody is already, can I affiliate link this? Or if someone's not already searching for it, they wouldn't really be interested in publishing it, which is so wild to be the priority of an outlet. Not that the Zoe Report was like hard hitting journalism. Anything but just to say that this is part of other.

[B]

Yes, and I think the Zoe Report is very much indicative of most media industry jobs and like most of what you're expected. And you can have these titles like assistant or senior editor even, and all you're doing is that type of work. And so then, yeah, maybe you get hired to a more standardized newspaper and they're like, oh, these kids, they don't know how to write. They don't know anything they're doing. It's like, well, they, their job literally never required any of that from them and in fact discouraged them to go.

[A]

To tooth hat a hundred percent.

[B]

I don't know. It's very frustrating to me.

[A]

I know. Well, you know, honestly the most frustrating part of this package to me was that nobody mentioned my newsletter as one they pay for.

[B]

Nor. Nor mine. But I wasn't expecting. You're flopping.

[A]

I know. I'm in my flop era.

[B]

I think my newsletter was also not named. But no one was expecting to see my newsletter named in there. But if they had asked me my opinion, I certainly would have given it to them. I have so many thoughts.

[A]

So many. Should we, should we move to the mess of the month?

[B]

Yeah, let's just, let's get to the mess of the month before I really spiral out about media.

[A]

I'm gonna try and make this quick because I could spiral out about this, but my mess of the month is Taylor Swift's glitter freckles.

[B]

Taylor, this was a final straw for me. Can I just say, I don't know why, but this broke something in my brain and made me really mad.

[A]

Me too. I feel like different things broke our respective brains. But. But it was a brain breaking moment all around. So she wore glitter freckles from this brand that I think you pronounce faze it F A Z I T to a Chiefs game earlier this month. Okay, so after she did this, the brand's direct to consumer sales rose 3,500%. It sold 40,000 units of these glitter freckles through its website and Amazon and it made over a million dollars in two days. Days.

[B]

She is really a powerful industry shaper.

[A]

Yes, she is crazy. And I. That's why I really think this story should be up there with her private jet usage in terms of environmental destruction. Oh boy. And I'm kidding. But only a little bit. Like, it's just like, do you Know how many microplastics are involved in glitter? Like a million dollars worth of glitter.

[B]

I don't think people do because let me just say I've. I literally never thought about glitter in terms of microplastics until I reading your newsletter. It just never even crossed my brain.

[A]

I've harped on this forever and I will continue to do it again, but I really think we need to stigmatize glitter. Glitter is a microplastic and, like, phase. It doesn't use the traditional glitter, like the polyethylene tetraphalate in its glitter, but it does use other microplastics because it sticks onto your face. So they use, like, acrylic copolymer. Okay. But so anyway, to try making it short. Obviously, we all know the big problem with plastic is that it's made from fossil fuels. So it lasts forever. It doesn't break down, but over hundreds of years, it breaks up into smaller and smaller particles called microplastics. And then these infiltrate air, water, soil, animals, our bodies, and, like, negatively affect our health forever. Microplastics have recently been found in dolphin breath. Did you see this report? Like, when dolphins, like, surface, surface. When they surface to, like, breathe.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

That, like, what they're pushing out is full of microplastics.

[B]

That is a horror.

[A]

It's so just. Yeah, it really is depressing. So dolphin breath, semen, umbilical cords. Yeah, everywhere.

[B]

I didn't know about the dolphin breath.

[A]

The dolphin breath is a new one. So, you know, to contextualize. The big problem with glitter is that it's already microplastic. Like, the breaking up into microplastics doesn't have to happen. It, like what? Like those horrible effects of microplastics happen in real time. And, like, scientists have been calling for ban on glitter for years. The European Union put, like, a limited ban on glitter. Like, it's bad. It's bad for the environment. And what's even worse is that, like, it only serves its purpose for like, a couple of hours at most, and then it's like, washed off. It becomes waste immediately. It goes down the drain or like, into the garbage. Garbage and goes on to just, like, have these devastating health effects immediately. So I do, I really think we need to stigmatize it. I think the headline should have been like, taylor Swift wears microplastic garbage on her face.

[B]

Not a lot.

[A]

And yeah, I don't know. I just can't stand. I can't stand glitter. Gen Z needs to cancel it. You know, the way they cancel, concealer and mascara. Cancel glitter.

[B]

Oh, there's something. Gen Z could cancel for reasons. Now that's a good idea. I have a question you might not know the answer to. This Phaseit, or whatever this brand is called, is this sort of, like, sticker glitter their specialty? Is this what they do?

[A]

It seems like.

[B]

Is this how it's used traditionally?

[A]

I guess. I went on the site and it seems like they have like, these sticker patches that, like, patch onto your face as, like, sort of see through glitter speckles.

[B]

Okay, so that's already interesting. I've literally never heard of anything like that or seen anything.

[A]

No, I've seen that. Like the faux freckle makeup.

[B]

Sure, yeah, I've seen the faux freckle, but never glitterized. And I was very curious when I saw Taylor Swift with it, if she had done this by hand or if it was some sort of applique. So that answers that. My issue with it was. It was ugly.

[A]

Yes, yes, that too. And it doesn't even look good. All that destruction for what?

[B]

Yeah, I really did not care for the effect that it produced versus, you know, another, you know, another horrible use of glitter, but I thought was quite beautiful was the euphoria. Glitter tears.

[A]

Yes, that.

[B]

I was like, okay, those are some.

[A]

Truly, like, artistic uses. Although I don't support them, I do see their, you know, aesthetic value.

[B]

Sure, sure. This did not have any aesthetic value for me. And it also just seems so extremely out of left field for someone who literally never takes any sort of beauty risks whatsoever. Yeah, it felt, like, so extreme in that light. Like, the most you've ever done is a strong red lip.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And now we're getting glitter freckles and you're, like, inventing them.

[A]

Where. Where did this come from? I don't know.

[B]

I don't know. As I said in my newsletter, I'm suspicious that there's some sort of, like, beauty product incoming from Taylor, and she's, like, testing out the limits of her ability to set trends. And clearly she can do it. I mean, a million in two days is nuts. 40,000 units sold is not nuts. Nothing.

[A]

No, that's. It's so much. It's so.

[B]

And considering all of her pop star peers already have, like, a million different product lines, she's kind of, like a rare exception. In that light.

[A]

I would say, like, these probably sold more than the typical, like, celebrity beauty brand does on, like, launch day.

[B]

Crazy. Okay, well, my mess of the month is also Taylor Swift related, but in a very different way. My mess of the month is the guy who smashed her guitar.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[B]

Have you seen him?

[A]

I have seen him.

[B]

I'm obsessed. It's this guy. It's this guy from Texas, Gary Estes. He's 67 years old. He is a Trump supporter, in case you were wondering. Oh, no. And he bought a Taylor Swift themed guitar that was also supposedly autographed by her at auction for $4,000. And then as he walks up on stage and accepts it, he immediately starts destroying it with a head hammer in front of the audience to great cheers and laughter.

[A]

I didn't realize it was with a hammer. I thought he was like smashing it on the ground.

[B]

No, no, it's. It's literally a hammer. I believe they even have a number. It's like seven. He hit it 17 times or something with a hammer. And so someone took a video of this moment and put it on TikTok and it went super viral, obviously, and people were very angry at him and assumed that it was some sort of pro Trump statement. Taylor had just. Yeah, Taylor had just endorsed Kamala, like recently before happened. So they assumed that it was some sort of statement about that. But Estes claims that it. It was not, and that was just a joke and that somebody on stage had already made a joke about it and then that he was just following through on the joke.

[A]

He just happened to have a hammer.

[B]

He just happened to have a hammer. And everybody was laughing and he thought, let's keep the giggles going, you know, let's let this party roll. I don't know how much I believe that, but that is. That is the party line. And he's. Again, it's event meant to raise for kids. Anyway, people were very mad at him, but ultimately all destroying this guitar did was make it more expensive, which I actually predicted in my newsletter.

[A]

Oh, my God, you're so. I literally said that.

[B]

And then the next day, they sold it on eBay for $6,500. The smashed one.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

To make all this even better, it's probably fake is what we've all learned.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

Yeah. So basically, a source close to Taylor's merch company, which I assume assume is like three Pain, told Huffington Post that if this was real, then the autograph would have come with a certificate of authenticity that she had actually signed it. And apparently the guitar did not come with this certificate, so it's all fake anyway, and he just smashed it. But I love it because I genuinely love iconoclasm and I love random acts performance art that are completely accidental. Not Is this.

[A]

Yeah, it's like.

[B]

It's just a guitar. Like, she's alive. She has many real guitars. She could sign a million more. You know what I mean? Like, it isn't this, like, inherently incredibly valuable object that people are making out to be? It actually doesn't mean anything. And so to destroy it and just, like, prove the point and to only make it more expensive ultimately is like perfect iconoclasm to me. My go to example for people who don't understand iconoclasm is always Robert Rauschenberg. Um, Robert Rauschenberg, one of my favorite artists. He was friends with another very famous artist, Willem de Kooning. And Willem de Kooning gave him a bunch of drawings that he had done. And so Robert Rauschenberg took one of those drawings and completely erased it and then framed it and put it back in the gallery as his original work of art called Erase de Kooning.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And that's kind of like the peak example of iconoclasm and history. And that, to me, is like, the joke. It's a perfect joke. It's so funny. It's so true, though. Like, what is art? When does it become yours? You know, Like, I don't know. I'm obsessed with it, and I'm obsessed with this man destroying Taylor Swift's fake guitar.

[A]

I can't wait to see what he does next.

[B]

I will be following Gary Estes iconoclastic performance art career very closely.

[A]

But I will say, like, $4,000 seems kind of low for a Taylor Swift guitar at auction.

[B]

It does seem kind of low. And that was kind of my other point with, like, people being upset with him. Like, he paid for it, like, it's his property. Like, he gave $4,000 to a kid's charity. Like, who cares what he does with the Kamala?

[A]

And then just like, you know, politically, he probably, like, you know, gathered more support for Taylor and Kamala in totally.

[B]

If anything, he rallied people against Trump in a whole new capacity, for sure. So it backfired on him in many ways. And that, too, I think, is a beautiful part of the performance art. There's layers to this.

[A]

There is incredible. So good, so messy. I think it's the perfect note to end on.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Well, that's it. We yapped again for almost two hours.

[B]

We've done it. We said we had nothing to say, and now here we are two hours later.

[A]

If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to, like, subscribe and review on Apple podcasts. Just say nice things. Things. Yeah. And I. I guess we'll see you next month.

[B]

Okay. See you next month. See you for Turkey Day.

[A]

Bye.