The Illusion of 'Mar-A-Lago Face'

Summary

The Review of Mess: Episode Summary - "The Illusion of 'Mar-A-Lago Face'"

Release Date: December 27, 2024
Hosts: Jessica DeFino & Emily Kirkpatrick
Title: The Illusion of 'Mar-A-Lago Face'

---

1. Introduction and Episode Context

In the final episode of 2024, Jessica DeFino and Emily Kirkpatrick delve into the latest trends and controversies in the realms of fashion and beauty. The episode kicks off with reflections on the unconventional nature of the past year and sets the stage for a deep dive into the intersection of politics, celebrity culture, and beauty standards.

Jessica DeFino [00:39]: "This year was just a very weird time-wise. I don't believe in a linear time existing anymore."

2. Trump's New Perfume and Celebrity Reactions

The hosts discuss former President Donald Trump's expansion into the beauty industry with his new women's perfume, "Victory 47." Emily highlights the high price point of $200 per bottle and notes the previous success of Trump's men's cologne, which has already sold out.

Emily Kirkpatrick [02:01]: "It's $200 a bottle. I would also like to put out there."

Jessica critiques the branding, likening the perfume's description to that of a beauty pageant, underscoring the irony of Trump positioning himself in the luxury market while maintaining a populist image.

Jessica DeFino [03:24]: "This sounds like the intro to a Miss USA beauty pageant."

They also touch upon comedian Kayla Perrin's humorous take on Trump's potential fit in the beauty industry, suggesting an alternate career path akin to Joan Rivers.

3. Podcast Future Plans

Jessica and Emily announce exciting developments for "The Review of Mess," including the introduction of a second episode each month featuring interviews with MESS affiliates. These episodes will offer curated discussions behind a paywall, catering to subscribers seeking more in-depth analysis.

Emily Kirkpatrick [05:38]: "In the new year, we're going to start releasing a second episode every month."

4. Fur in Fashion: Real vs. Faux Debates

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the resurgence of real fur in celebrity fashion. Emily observes an increase in real fur sightings among stars like Rihanna and Gigi Hadid, questioning whether this trend is an extension of the "quiet luxury" movement or a class signaling mechanism.

Emily Kirkpatrick [07:16]: "I've seen a lot of real furs on people... it feels kind of like a signaling to a certain class level."

Jessica raises ethical concerns, debating the environmental impact of both real and faux fur. She criticizes faux fur for its reliance on petrochemicals while acknowledging that real fur often stems from existing industry byproducts rather than dedicated farming for tallow.

Jessica DeFino [09:31]: "Faux fur through polyester is not the way to go either."

The hosts lament PETA's lack of vocal opposition to the return of real fur, contrasting it with their previous activism.

Emily Kirkpatrick [11:23]: "PETA's silence is deafening."

5. Victorian-Inspired Fashion Trends

Jessica and Emily explore the current trend of Victorian-inspired clothing on red carpets, noting the precise replication of historical styles in modern fashion. They cite examples like Anya Taylor-Joy's Chloe spring 2025 bloomers and Emma Corrin's Alexander McQueen gown, discussing the blend of regressive aesthetics with contemporary sexy silhouettes.

Emily Kirkpatrick [30:19]: "We're almost taking the Trad wife aesthetic a little too literally."

This trend is seen as a reflection of societal shifts, with fashion borrowing heavily from the past to convey new messages about gender roles and societal expectations.

6. Red Carpet and Celebrity Fashion Predictions

The hosts predict a move towards more elaborate and themed red carpet appearances, coining the term "homage psychosis." They discuss how events like the Barbie press tour have set a precedent for heavily themed celebrity outfits, leading to a surge in costume-like fashion statements.

Emily Kirkpatrick [54:08]: "I'm calling it Stepford Face or Stepford Skin."

They envision a future where celebrities use fashion as a medium for storytelling and virality, pushing the boundaries of traditional red carpet norms.

7. 2025 Beauty Trends: AI, Cyborgs, and Neuro Cosmetics

Jessica and Emily forecast a rise in beauty trends inspired by artificial intelligence and cyborg aesthetics. They introduce concepts like "Stepford Face," where AI and machine-like features meld with human beauty standards, creating an inhuman yet desirable look.

Jessica DeFino [62:35]: "I'm calling it Stepford Face or Stepford Skin."

The conversation extends to "neuro cosmetics," products designed to evoke specific feelings through their scents and textures, blurring the lines between emotional well-being and beauty routines.

Emily Kirkpatrick [65:32]: "Perfume is the closest thing we have to mass producing and consuming feelings."

Additionally, they predict a move towards more gender-neutral beauty standards and the commercialization of therapeutic skincare lines developed by professionals, aligning with the dehumanized aesthetics of the future.

8. Mess of the Month: Mar-A-Lago Face

Concluding the episode, Jessica and Emily introduce their "Mess of the Month" segment, focusing on the "Mar-A-Lago face." This term refers to the overt plastic surgery aesthetic observed among Trump's inner circle and other conservative figures, characterized by overfilled lips, tight skin, and a motionless forehead.

Emily Kirkpatrick [90:08]: "Orcas in the Puget Sound have been wearing dead salmon on their heads as like little hats."

Jessica criticizes the framing of this aesthetic as exclusively conservative, arguing that similar beauty standards are prevalent across the political spectrum. They emphasize that the "Mar-A-Lago face" is more indicative of an upper-class beauty trend rather than a partisan one, highlighting the universal nature of certain beauty practices.

Jessica DeFino [91:58]: "This aesthetic is not conservative face as much as it is, like, upper class face."

Emily adds that this trend reflects a broader societal mirror, where both sides of the political aisle engage in similar beauty practices, making the criticism somewhat self-reflective.

---

Notable Quotes

• Jessica DeFino [03:24]: "This sounds like the intro to a Miss USA beauty pageant."
• Emily Kirkpatrick [07:16]: "I've seen a lot of real furs on people... it feels kind of like a signaling to a certain class level."
• Emily Kirkpatrick [54:08]: "I'm calling it Stepford Face or Stepford Skin."
• Emily Kirkpatrick [65:32]: "Perfume is the closest thing we have to mass producing and consuming feelings."

---

Conclusion

In "The Illusion of 'Mar-A-Lago Face'," Jessica DeFino and Emily Kirkpatrick offer a critical and insightful analysis of the latest beauty and fashion trends, intertwining political commentary with cultural observations. From the resurgence of real fur to the futuristic metamorphosis of beauty standards, the hosts dissect how societal shifts influence and are reflected in the glitzy world of celebrity aesthetics. Their forward-looking predictions provide listeners with a glimpse into the evolving landscape of beauty and fashion, urging a deeper contemplation of the motives and implications behind seemingly superficial trends.

---

For more insights and in-depth discussions, subscribe to Jessica DeFino's Substack.

Transcript

[Jessica Defino]

Hello. Welcome to the Review of Mess, a podcast dedicated to discussing the highs and lows of pop culture every month. I'm Jessica Defino. I write the newsletter the Review of Beauty.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'm Emily Kirkpatrick. I write I Heart Mess, a newsletter about bad fashion. Welcome.

[Jessica Defino]

That's so good.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Welcome to our last podcast of 2024. Isn't that crazy?

[Jessica Defino]

I can't believe it. I really can't believe we've at the end of December already. This year was just very weird time wise. I don't believe in a linear time existing anymore.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

No. 2020 kind of ruined that fantasy. I feel like I don't really count years since then. So I'm always confused about. Yeah. How old I am. That time has passed that anything has happened completely. Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

And we're. We're ending the year with a brand new celebrity beauty brand Trump. Donald Trump.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like who? Tell me who. Yes, I was reading this. So I read as seen on newsletter. I don't know if you're subscriber.

[Jessica Defino]

I'm a fan. I'm a fan.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's quite good. It's just kind of a general culture newsletter roundup for those who aren't subscribers. But it's great. You should. And she brought up something kind of related to last month's episode which is that Trump has a new perfume for ladies.

[Jessica Defino]

He does. I actually he's had a cologne for men for quite a while. I wrote about it in February and March. But yeah, now there is a women's perfume.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'm glad it was so successful that he's can now expand his beauty empire to include the ladies as well. So we can all get that, that Maga scent on us. It's $200 a bottle. I would also like to put out there.

[Jessica Defino]

I feel like it's. I feel like at least the men's sold out before.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, yeah. I saw on the website that the men's had sold out. They have a new iteration of it called like Victory 47 but the old ones had sold out. Those are some luxury price tags though, I gotta say. 200 bucks.

[Jessica Defino]

This is the funny thing about Donald Trump is like he is the luxury lovers president and yet seems to have this like reputation of fighting for the everyman. Like I don't know how we got.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Here but yeah, remember he made those sneakers. How much were those sneakers again? They were also like weirdly expensive.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And like, well of course, you know, gold plated everything. It doesn't come cheap. But I just, I really enjoyed the description of the perfume and I would just like to read a little part of it.

[Jessica Defino]

Let's hear it.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Let's hear it. So in the description on the website, it says, celebrate in Trump style with Victory 47, a stunning new women's fragrance inspired by President Trump's historic win. This limited edition numbered rose gold statue perfume is bold, beautiful, and iconic. Perfect for the Trump fan and collector. With every spray, Victory 47 captures confidence, beauty, and unstoppable determination. A sophisticated, subtly feminine fragrance. Oh, I added that. That's your go to signature for negation. Limited edition, numbered, iconic.

[Jessica Defino]

Okay, but you know what this sounds like? This sounds like the intro to a fucking, like, Miss USA beauty pageant, which he was in charge of, like, confidence, beauty, unstoppable determination. Here is Miss Margo Jersey.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like, this is it. I forgot about his pageant world dalliance.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, he's like, a natural fit for the beauty industry for sure.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You just reminded me. Are you familiar with Kayla Perrin, the comedian?

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my gosh, yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'm obsessed with him. But he just did Z Way's show, and he's saying that Trump is, like, just the ultimate gay guy, like, the ultimate mean gay guy, and that in an alternate dimension, like, his job would be a kind of Joan Rivers situation where he'd be like, that dress, honey. I don't think so. And I. It, like, struck me to my core. I was like, oh, my God. That is genuinely his true calling. And then, like, you just reminded me of the pageant of it all. It's like, literally judging women in outfits is. He's done that, what he was supposed to be doing, and he's, like, fallen so far field of his true calling. Very sad.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense that he is, like, the first US President with a beauty brand, considering his past and.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

His beautiful obsession with tanning. And his hair, of course.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. No, all of it. And then, like we mentioned last month, RFK Jr. Will be the first, like, U.S. health secretary whose wife has a beauty brand.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

And so I'm predicting an Ooh Shavance skincare line sometime in the next four years.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I think that's a very exciting proposition right there.

[Jessica Defino]

I think it's gonna happen.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I say, jd, get in on it. Get that eyeliner line out there.

[Jessica Defino]

I know.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I mean, the people are asking for it.

[Jessica Defino]

We need a mascara. We need a growth serum from JD Vance.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Drop the eye makeup routine, JD Come out of hiding.

[Jessica Defino]

We need to know it's gonna happen. I don't want it. I don't enjoy it.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

No, nobody wants it.

[Jessica Defino]

But I do predict it.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I always, you know, nothing about the timeline we're living in is good, but if we have to be in it, we need to find small joys. And this is one for me. I'm sorry.

[Jessica Defino]

No, I do see it happening.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Speaking about the coming year, should we tell the people what we're cooking up? Oh, for this podcast, for our plans?

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I think we should. I think you should.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Okay, well, Jess and I have been hearing you. You want us, you want more pod, and, well, you're kind of going to get more pod.

[Jessica Defino]

A little more pod.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

A little tiny bit more pod. In the new year, we're going to start releasing a second episode every month. That's going to be an interview, sort of situation with kind of a MESS affiliate.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes. Yeah, it'll be me, Emily. Plus.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes. Plus, they're going to curate some MESS for us. We're going to talk about it, and that will probably be behind the paywall on either of our newsletters. We'll keep you posted as things firm up. But, yeah, something to look forward to twice. Twice a month. Review of MESS for your enjoyment.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I think that's like, a good way, because I know a lot of people have been saying, like, they would prefer more episodes per month and shorter, but I feel like adding. Adding an extra guest episode each month and then keeping this, like the one monthly roundup is, like, easier for our schedules because, I don't know. I can't imagine. I can't imagine doing this every week.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I have a lot of work.

[Jessica Defino]

It's fun. But, yeah, there's so much to do.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And also, I think we've made it clear that we can't make this episode shorter no matter how much we try. We literally can't stop ourselves from talking.

[Jessica Defino]

Basically impossible, of chatting less.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. So if you have any suggestions of people you'd like to hear on the POD or like us to be in conversation with, please let us know.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I would love to hear from people.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And with that said, should I get into my first thought of the month?

[Jessica Defino]

Your first first thought about fur?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes, my first first thought about fur. Fur is in. You guys. This is just something. I mean, obviously it's winter, right? So it's not, like, a huge surprise, but, Yeah, I don't know. I've just been really struck this month by how much real fur I've been seeing out there. You know, both, obviously, on celebrities. I mean, there's the usual suspects when it comes to celebrities. Rihanna, Jeffrey Lopez, Mary J. Blige. They've Literally never stopped wearing real fur.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. A signature.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's a signature of their look, but also just anecdotally, like, walking through the streets of New York. I've seen a lot of real furs on people, and I've just been really surprised by it. You know, part of me feels like. I don't know, maybe part of it is like an extension of the quiet luxury trend that we saw this year. Although I would argue wearing animal hides is a pretty loud luxury on the street. But it does feel kind of like a signaling to a certain class level, perhaps.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, definitely. Class performance.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, class performance. And, yeah, I don't know. I've seen a lot of fur coats from some surprising celebrities as well. And also, interestingly, specifically, like, a fur skirt, mini skirt trend we have. Katy Perry and Meghan Trainor both wore this. Designer Kim Schwee, who does faux fur. Sabrina Carpenter wore a 1994 Chanel faux fur matching set, like, cardigan and miniskirt. And Gigi Hadid also wore this little, like, mink miniskirt.

[Jessica Defino]

Interesting.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I just think it's very odd and specific. And then most recently, Kim Kardashian modeled a fur, like, micro bikini for skims, which is, of course, a reference to those iconic fur bikini pictures Kanye took of her. I don't know if that's iconic to other people or just me as like, an accidental Kardashian fashion historian, but to me, no, I remember that that's iconic imagery. For those who maybe don't recall, she was wearing a fur bikini in, like, a blizzard outside. And it was really at the peak of kind of Kimye and that aesthetic. And. Yeah, I don't know. I just think it's so interesting. And where is Peeta? Yeah, where is Peeta in all of this? I think, like, they've been weirdly silent.

[Jessica Defino]

I think that there has sort of been a backlash to faux fur and I think a justified backlash to faux fur. I'm kind of like, I know I need to think more about this, but I'm, like, kind of okay with the resurgence of real fur, so long as it's, like, vintage, I guess, because when there was the big, like, sort of ethical uproar about the impact of fur, and we saw, like, big fashion brands, you know, making announcements that they were no longer going to be designing fur pieces and things like that, we saw a huge uptick in faux fur, which is just plastic. And it's like, if your concern is, like, the environment and animal health and. Well, Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's not the way either mass producing.

[Jessica Defino]

Faux fur through polyester, like petrochemicals, is not the way to go either. Like, that's just as bad for the planet and for animals. Yeah. I don't know if it's vintage. It's like, okay, an animal has already died for this.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It exists in the world. Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

It's a source of warmth. Is it any good to just not use it if it exists already? I don't know.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. I don't know. This is something I also wonder about all the time, too. Obviously. Yeah. It's fur that already exists in the world. Yeah. I'm very torn about it. And obviously, plastic faux fur is not the answer either. And I've always thought that's very interesting, because you have someone like Stella McCartney, right. Who's, like, very much a proponent of this type of stuff, who does make faux fur, and I'm always like, is that the solution? And also, if this is what we want to do, why not invest in the technology for it? Why not figure out a different way to do it that isn't quite so devastating to the planet on all fronts?

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I just think PETA's silence is deafening.

[Jessica Defino]

Interesting.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I just think it's weird. I feel like they're always at the forefront of calling this stuff out, and they love to do it when a celebrity does it. And also, I would like to know what happened to splashing people with red paint and flower bombs. Why aren't they doing that anymore? What happened to that?

[Jessica Defino]

I liked that era. I thought that was fun.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I wrote this in the newsletter, but I do think there's something about the aesthetic of a fur splash with red paint that's kind of fabulous. And I don't know why. If you're gonna wear a fur coat, like, why not just lean into the, like, the cancellation of it all? Like, why not embrace kind of, like, I don't know, the anti aesthetic of it?

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. There's something appealing about, like, the admission that, you know, it's wrong.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's wrong. Right. And then the scarlet A of it and just kind of. Yeah. Leaning in and making it camp. Making a joke out of it. If you're gonna do something like, this could be kind of fabulous, especially as a celebrity.

[Jessica Defino]

Mm. I think we should start the trend of splashing black paint, like, oil on faux fur. Jack.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Ooh.

[Jessica Defino]

We need to start paint splashing everyone.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, that's exciting. It's got to be, like, litigation is why they stopped doing this. Right. Like, it's got to be like, people were suing.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like for assault or something. Right.

[Jessica Defino]

Makes the most sense.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But we. I will stage this for fake with you. I'll wear a faux fur, and you can splash oil on me. We can do a whole scene. We'll be in Page Six. I'll call my. My journalist friends there.

[Jessica Defino]

God, this is the marketing stunt we've been dreaming.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, yes. This is how the pod really pops off Mess. This is how we make it into the mainstream. I also was reading in all these newsletters lately that meat consumption is also, like, just as popular as ever. It's up globally, I guess, year on.

[Jessica Defino]

Year, which is wild because we eat so much meat. Like, how could we be eating more?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right. It's hard to imagine places we could squeeze more in. And also just like, it seems opposite of what we see on grocery store shelves. There's just been such a huge boom and an emphasis on kind of, like, the fake meat market that I just. I never looked into it. I just kind of presumed, wow, more people must be eating this stuff.

[Jessica Defino]

I feel like this is, like, propaganda on behalf of, like, Big Meat and Big Dairy. Like, they want you to think that, like, alternative milks are more popular than they are. That, like, impossible burgers are more popular than they are. So that you can feel like counterculture y and rebellious by just buying into what's already mainstream, which is just like, consuming a lot of regular dairy and regular meat. This is my theory.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Wow. I like this conspiracy theory.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Maybe people don't know this, but I wrote an article for Glamour. I don't know if that was, again, time is not real to me. So I don't know if that was this year or last year, but I wrote a piece for Glamour about kind of, like, dairy propaganda slipping back into the mainstream. Because I just started noticing that, like, like, people were starting to wear those, like, Got Milk shirts again. Specifically, I'm talking about Haley Bieber.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Started wearing a Got Milk shirt again. She had some road product that was also, like, milk.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Glazing.

[Jessica Defino]

Glazing milk.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And. Yeah. And then celebrities just, like, posing with glasses of milk and stuff and, like, really regular, otherwise regular Instagram photos. And so I just kind of looked into it, and there is legitimately, the dairy industry. I forget they're, like, official title, but the dairy industry is genuinely making this push towards Gen Z to encourage them to consume real cow. Cow dairy again.

[Jessica Defino]

No, I believe that 100%.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. So the idea that the meat is involved in that as well is not. Not such the conspiracy theory. Yeah, it's not as out There, as you might think, these people really do have lobbyists plotting this kind of stuff. And. But also interestingly, as meat consumption is up, beef and veal consumption are down 3% in the US and I, I feel like veal is doing a lot of the heavy lifting in that 3%, but maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, I just feel like people are finding out what that word means and the right. We don't like when babies are involved in any capacity. But this also got me thinking about kind of like the renewed popularity in the Carnivore diet this year. I don't know if you've noticed that. And also just kind of like this idea of like eating like ancestors eating like cavemen, which is just like totally a fictional concept built to sell this diet culture thing.

[Jessica Defino]

I have, I have to admit something. Please, like 10 years ago, more than 10 years ago, like maybe like closer to like 12 or 15. I was Paleo for like two years.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Wow. How was it?

[Jessica Defino]

Honestly, I had a great experience.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'm happy for you.

[Jessica Defino]

I felt really good. But, you know, eventually just not a sustainable lifestyle. I had to, like, my boyfriend and I at the time, my boyfriend and I did it together and we had to like, you know, make every single meal right from home, from scratch. And it just like, was not.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, it doesn't seem like a long term plan.

[Jessica Defino]

No, it wasn't doable. But I like, felt fine while I was doing it.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I guess. I've never been on any. Well, any sort of diet, honestly.

[Jessica Defino]

No.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's. Let alone Paleo or. Thank you so much. It's, you know, I just like food. I wish I could say the same. I just can't control myself in that way. But I. So I googled the Carnivore diet because I wasn't totally clear about like the parameters of it and I guess I didn't realize how strict it is there. It's literally no fruit or vegetables at all, no grains, no legumes. Oh, really? Yes. It's literally just meat, fish, eggs, dairy, period.

[Jessica Defino]

Damn.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Nothing else.

[Jessica Defino]

That is not what I did the most.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Okay, I'm glad to hear it the most. The person who's made me most familiar with the Carnivore diet is Jordan Peterson. I don't know if you know his famous iconic meme story about being on the Carnivore diet, but he almost died because he had a glass of apple cider. This is, this is a story that he told Joe Rogan on his podcast. That is one of my just favorite stupid Internet facts. Which he said that after months of being on an all beef diet. He said that. Well, first he said consuming anything other than beef would cause him, quote, serious psychological and physical harm, which seems a problem already. And then he told this story to Joe about how he had a single glass of apple cider and it caused him to stay awake for a full month and filled him with, quote, an overwhelming sense of impending doom. It couldn't happen to a worse guy. Like, it's. That's actually what he deserves is an overwhelming sense of impending doom. I hope he has more glasses of apple cider.

[Jessica Defino]

I, like, need to know more about the mechanics of how this could or might happen. Like, I know if you deprive yourself of, like, certain nutrients for so long, can they have the effect of a high or something of your whole body.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Shutting down in response to a fruit? Yeah. I don't know. I don't understand why no one's ever asked Jordan, like, follow up questions about this. Because it's all I think about when I think about him. And then finally, yeah, just on TikTok, we have the bone broth hot chocolate trend just in time for the holidays, which is maybe one of the grossest ideas that's come to my mind recently.

[Jessica Defino]

I wouldn't have bone broth hot chocolate, but I do have bone broth. I've been drinking bone broth for, like, years. Not like Gwyneth Paltrow as exclusively eating bone broth, but, like, you know, I always have some in my pantry and it's been really great for me. And I eat regular food as well. Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I think bone broth is fine. There's something about the idea of mixing the bone broth into something sweet that immediately makes me recoil. But maybe I'm just and should not.

[Jessica Defino]

Go to the baby close minded.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Maybe.

[Jessica Defino]

No, you're correct. You're absolutely correct.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Thank you so much. But I do feel like all of the above is priming us for RFK's raw milk agenda.

[Jessica Defino]

A hundred percent. One hundred percent. And mixed into this whole, like, raw milk meat, RFK conservative agenda is beef tallow skincare.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Ooh.

[Jessica Defino]

I don't know if you've heard much about this.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I haven't heard. And honestly, I'm not sure that I 100% know what beef tallow is. That's how out of the loop I.

[Jessica Defino]

Am, let me tell you. Yeah, there's been like an uproar in the skin care community lately about beef tallow. So tallow is like rendered cow fat.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Okay.

[Jessica Defino]

It's been used as A skin care ingredient for like centuries. You know, ancient Egypt, ancient Rome, all the classics, everyone's used it and like, I would say for like, pretty good fine reasons. Like, tallow does have, like some antibacterial qualities. It has like vitamin content that like, has a lot of vitamins that skin actually like, needs to function, like vitamin A, D, E, K. It's especially full of fatty acids that the skin needs. That the skin barrier needs. Its chemical makeup is like pretty close to that of human sebum, just like my beloved jojoba oil. So it's full of like oleic acid, linoleic acid, and cholesterol, which are like three kind of like fatty oils that will just like naturally occur on the skin barrier. So like tallow won't sink into your skin, but it will, you know, no pun intended, beef up your skin barrier.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Okay. So like imparts those onto your.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. And it's full of things that like your skin barrier has and needs. Anyway.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Okay.

[Jessica Defino]

So anyway, like, like I don't care about skincare personally that much. Like, I barely use skincare. I'm not like super evangelical about ingredients. But like, tallow is a fine ingredient and I feel like people are like unnecessarily freaking out about it. Like I've used it myself sparingly for years.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Do they just not like the idea?

[Jessica Defino]

They don't like the idea. Which, like, I'll get into one is weird because everyone's fucking slurping up pulverized cow cartilage in the form of collagen daily. And I think because it has this like right wing connotation, like scientifically it's fine. It's probably like any other ingredient. Like your skin might respond pretty well to it, another person's skin might not. But there's nothing inherently bad or harmful about it. But it's popular right now because I think Nara Smith, the Mormon model influencer who's married to Lucky Blue Smith and has the TikTok tradwife content that's always going viral, I think used it in a homemade moisturizer. So because it's now associated with conservatism and right wing influencers, like the reaction to beef tallow has been like kind of unhinged from the media and social media. Like people are acting as if an ingredient can be far right coded or left coded.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right. Like it could indoctrinate your politics or something by using it.

[Jessica Defino]

There's not an inherently fascist skin care ingredient out there. Like, please be serious.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Kind of ask a question about beef tallow. That maybe you might know the answer to all of these things that it naturally has. We know how to synthetically make all of that. Or we know. We, like. I don't even know how to ask this question.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. So they're in plenty of other oils as well. And there are synthetic options for sure.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Okay, and is there some. How do I. I clearly am not a beauty person. Is there some, like, added benefit to, like, doing beef tout? Like, having an ingredient that has this stuff naturally versus like, buying these products maybe individually and. And applying them to your skin barrier?

[Jessica Defino]

Not. I mean, it depends. I think, like, the more processed something is, the more ingredients end up getting involved Right. In it. So if you're somebody with, like, super sensitive skin and certain ingredients that are in, like, more processed things or, you know, products that have like 30 to 50 ingredients in there, which is like, the norm. Yeah. You might have more reactions. I mean.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right. Because Nara. I think I saw this video where Nara Smith was using it, and she does have, like, some sort of eczema or psoriasis or something that she's using it for. So she would be someone who would be, like, extra sensitive to.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I started using it when I had, like, dermatitis and was going through topical steroid withdrawal. And it's just like, anything on skin that's reactive can set it off. So you look for things that have as few ingredients as possible just to be able to pinpoint, like, what sets you off and what doesn't. And so something with, like, you know, most like beef tallow products, like, they're still processed. They still have to, like, render the tallow, and it's often mixed with other ingredients. But you could have a product that has like, three ingredients versus 20, you know.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right. And honestly, when you said collagen, I don't know, it kind of struck me that, like, maybe the real problem here is, like, beef tallow just has bad branding. Like, maybe they should just come up with another word for. Because I. I literally never think of collagen as an animal. Like, I know that that's weird.

[Jessica Defino]

It's so sanitized.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So sanitized. They've so divorced it. They've turned into this powder. Like, it's like any other, you know, like athletic greens or something that you would, like, mix into a. Into your water and drink every day. I don't know. They've done such a good job. It's similar to the veal rebrand, you know, like, they've done such a good job of divorcing it from what it actually is that I don't think people even think of it as an animal byproduct anymore.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. So people are definitely thinking of beef tallow, like, as the most disgusting animal byproduct you could ever use. And I think they're thinking of it that way because of its like, association with like, right wing influencers. But it's just, I don't know, that's kind of driving me crazy because it's. I don't know, it's like what we talked about last month when we were covering RFK junior's plans for the fda. Like, we. It's so silly to seed all concern about skincare safety or efficacy of ingredients to like, one political side when there's like, yeah, you know, science we can look at.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And also when you're just talking about an industry where it's like, there's a lot worse stuff.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh my God.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

In our products and like, like there's literally like lead and stuff. You know, it's like, I don't know. Beef tallow is not my, my top. Right.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, there's plenty more concerning things. Well, I was talking to my boyfriend about it the other day to like, try and understand why this, like, bothers me so much. And he, he put it in a, like, really helpful way that's helped me clarify things. Like, he was basically like, you know, fascism is a critique of modernity from the far right, but, like, there are also critiques of modernity from the left.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Sure.

[Jessica Defino]

And so in like socialism. So like, in both cases, we can be critiquing like a bad and broken system and there are going to be like, valid critiques of that system right. From either side. And like, what I'm afraid is happening here is that like, the left is seeing the right critique a bad and broken system, let's say, of industrialized skincare. And instead of like offering our own critique, we are saying like, no, this system is actually good and perfect, actually. And you're crazy.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, that's very interesting. That's a very good point.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I do feel like you can kind of see that in our, even in our Democratic Party. Right. It's like we are not allowed to critique them. We have to just be like, no, they're perfect and good and they're making all the best choices for us.

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

There couldn't possibly be another way to do it or, you know, valid.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. So I feel like the, the, the outrage around beef tallow is, is sort of like unjustified from a scientific standpoint. Point and is more like a political reaction. And it's just, like, devoid of common sense in the arguments against it. Because, again, the people who are upset about it and are, like, it's wrong to use animal products aren't saying anything about, like, salmon sperm facials.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Defino]

They're not saying anything about collagen.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You always bring up things that, like, I have truly blocked from my mind. Salmon sperm facials. My God.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my God. No. Many, many outlets are predicting that 2025 is going to be the year that everyone's getting a salmon spe facial.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And it's like salmon sperm alone.

[Jessica Defino]

I know. I want to see. I want to see the animal rights activism there as much as PETA for beef tallow.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Where is PETA? We've never needed you more.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. Oh, and the other thing that I just wanted to, like, say, because, like, I of course, believe that, like, the. The meat and dairy industries need to be critiqued and reformed and, like, there are horrible animal rights violations going on, and I don't necessarily endorse ingredients that are farmed from these systems, but I just do want to say that there is no cow farm out there that's raising cows specifically for tallow and discarding the meat and skin. Right. This is kind of a byproduct of the industry.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, yet. Not yet. Don't give them ideas.

[Jessica Defino]

I know. Oh, God. But the tallow that's out there is not like you can actually view it as part of the sustainable practice that many indigenous cultures have practiced for centuries of just using every part of the animal if you must use the animal. So, yeah, I don't know. It's really complicated, but I just feel like people are kind of blown out of proportion.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Speaking of critiques from both sides, also, I would just like to say PETA is not good either.

[Jessica Defino]

I don't know much about PETA.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I know I am calling for their involvement, but they also can be pretty extremist. Wrong a lot of times, and unreasonable.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's almost like both extremes are not right. Yeah, imagine that.

[Jessica Defino]

Exactly. So that's my stance on beef tallow.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Okay, fantastic. And while we're talking about kind of venturing into the past, I guess, for modern trends, I have noticed another little fashion trend that I'd like to bring up, which is that, like, we're heading into something, like, very Victorian in our clothing. And I've been noticing a lot of, like, bloomers and Victorian nightgowns on red carpets lately. And it. I don't know, it feels like we're almost taking the Trad wife aesthetic, like, a little too literally.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like, not only are our policies on women regressing and our roles in society, but also our fashions are quite literally going back a century. Yeah, I guess this kind of started for me. I saw Anya Taylor Joy went to an Apple TV event in a look from Chloe's spring 2025 collection that is literally from the past. I don't know how much more I can emphasize this. It's truly a pair of bloomers and a sheer lace bralette. And my friend Cora Harrington, who's a huge lingerie expert on the Internet, she shared a photo of a pattern from 1878 for ladies Muslin drawers. And they are literally the exact same design as these Chloe Bloomers.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my God.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like, down to the little frills, down to the ribbons. Like, every detail of them is exactly what Chloe just put down the Runway. Which is kind of crazy to me. Like, I know fashion borrows from the past. Like, I know it's cyclical, but to be so precise, I don't know, is very interesting to me. And then. Yeah, yeah. Emma Corrin, in promoting Nosferatu, they've worn a couple of looks that are just. Yeah. Again, it's all kind of like, it's Victorian, but made like super sexy and like scant. Like, they're all very sheer and. Yeah, like lingerie. Like Victorian lingerie is, I guess, how I would describe it. In Emma's case specifically, I'm talking about an Alexander McQueen Spring 2025 gown that they wore. Yeah, it looked like kind of an Ebenezer Scrooge type nightgown, but, like scandalous.

[Jessica Defino]

Interesting. Did you see the Yvie magazine fashion launch where they released. They're calling it the raw milkmaid dress. They say it's inspired by the hard working dairy maids of the 17th century.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes. I just saw a picture of it the other day. Yeah, that's their thing. Again, very interesting. And even the whole dialogue, you just made me think the whole dialogue that you're about milkmaid dresses and that being like the male ideal. Do you know about this? This is a big TikTok conversation. No, I know you're not on TikTok.

[Jessica Defino]

No.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. You've been blessed to not have to participate in this. But yeah, apparently men's ideal dress for women is something they call the milkmaid dress and then kind of. Or like sundress. Sundress. But it's. Then it kind of evolved into milk made dress and then there's kind of this realization that men don't know the difference between dresses at all because they were actually all describing was like a skin tight maxi dress. So we just, we just kind of like mass learned like the lack of information men have about actual women's fashion. But anyway, I just thought it was interesting that they all kind of gravitated towards this word milkmaid dress. It's like. Right. Cause it has these real connotations of like folkloric. Yeah. Old timey, traditional gender roles, women wearing dresses. Right, right. Kind of regressive back to the past and then. Yeah, seeing it's just this particular trend is interesting to me because it is kind of has those regressive hallmarks but then is like aggressively sexy, aggressively naked.

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

In this way that makes it very modern again.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I think I'm having like. I don't think I've worked through this fully in my mind yet, but I'm very much questioning like the trad wife aesthetics and the raw milkmaid dress and all of this like regressive fashion. Like how much of it is like contributing to regressive culture in other regressive ways and how much of it is just like the natural fashion cycle of references and like, I don't know, just like the aesthetic of something versus like the input and the outcome. Like I'm thinking like the, the nap dress is similar to the milkmaid dress.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It is.

[Jessica Defino]

And like that's a huge trend. Like you know, bipartisan fashion trend I would say, you know, across the political spectrum. And it's like if you're, if you do manufacture a dress like that, but it's like made with sustainable materials and your workers are unionized and they're paid fair wages and stuff. Like, can, can we call a dress like regressive or conservative? Like, I don't know, like what, what's the breakdown between like the aesthetic of. And then like the process of how it's made and the impact it then has on society?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like, I don't know, I mean to me the garment itself is never like, to me fashion is always just reflecting back to us what's already happening in culture. Right. So like we are just seeing these movements in society and fashion then like creates a version of it that's like consumable and it kind of reflects whatever those vague values are back to you and like puts its own spin on it. So to me it's never like the actual process of how the garment is made that's ingrained itself within this tradwife movement, for example, but rather just A visual reflection of kind of the direction that culture is headed in, if that makes sense.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, no, totally.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But also, to me, it's like. Well, another example I had of this was. I don't know if you saw these photos of Addison Rae where she called the paparazzi on herself while she was drinking gas.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes, yes, I did.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Really iconic people were very upset for some reason that she called the paparazzi in herself. And I'm like, guys, that's literally what all celebrities are doing 101 times. Yeah, that's 101. She just was a little more flagrant about it, but basically she's wearing this, like, vintage apron dress. It looks just like an apron, and she's just wearing pasties underneath it. And. Yeah, I don't know. To me, it's like, beyond fashion, reflecting this trad wife thing. It's like trad wifery. And these kind of Victorian aesthetics are a really rich material for outrage, which is always the direction I see celebrity fashion. Kind of like mining, you know, it's like they just see like, oh, like conservative values. How do we, like, take them, warp them, undermine them, and that creates, like, shock, that creates outrage, that creates virality, that then gives us more pr. So that, to me, is kind of ultimately the point, at least on a celebrity realm. Because then, you know, this stuff, I feel like, trickles down to the masses and it takes on new meaning and it takes on new symbolism for people. But. But when you're talking about the level of red carpet in Hollywood and celebrity, it's always kind of about attention, economy.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And yeah, I think Victorian making, like, Victorian kind of pinup girl fashion is a really powerful way to do that. Also, I think it's funny because the Victorians were actually like, huge freaks. And so I feel like they would actually love this. I feel like this is like, straight up, like, they always have that Victorian child meme, you know, where they're like, oh, if you showed this to a Victorian child, like, they would die. And I'm like, actually, they were into some really crazy stuff, so I think they'd be fine.

[Jessica Defino]

But that's so funny. Yeah. Speaking of outrage bait, please. I have to wonder if that's what Ulta was doing when they decided to manufacture, like, toy replicas of their best selling beauty products for little children.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I, like, I saw this headline in passing and I was like, you know, I'm gonna leave Jess to explain this to me, because that seemed right.

[Jessica Defino]

So there was a recent article in Bloomberg about Ulta, which is like, A huge beauty retailer level of Sephora has manufactured these. They're calling them mystery balls. And you just like buy. It's like a toy store. It's like you buy this ball and inside it has collectible versions of toys of their products. So you don't even know what you're getting.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I unfortunately know exactly what you're talking about because I'm addicted to mini balls.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes, yes, it's exactly that.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'm a big consumer of mini balls that are filled with tiny grocery products because I turn them into magnets because I think they're funny. And so I am very guilty of probably egging on this trend. I'm so sorry.

[Jessica Defino]

No, no, it's fine. I mean, mini grocery is very different than like luring children into your store.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

They are so funny though, because they're just like heavily bred. Like, like these corporations basically just make a deal with this toy brand to use their branding to produce these tiny little plastic garbage toys that you really can't do anything with unless you have like a dollhouse or something, right?

[Jessica Defino]

And these kids do, and that's what they're using them for. Like according to the Bloomberg article, like some of the products that are now in toy form are like butt polish and you know, wake up eye gel. And so there's a quote from the article that talks about this woman's 10 year old daughter came home from a playdate with one of the mystery balls after playing with the toy version. She's keen on buying real caffeine energizing hydrogel eye patches and was like asking her, her mother for these patches and like. So in the article, you know, parents, dermatologists are worried. This woman who's the head of the children's advertising review unit says Ulta is using the toys to, quote, lure children into their stores. And then there's some data there about the beauty boom for babies, children and tweens. So households that have kids between the ages of 6 and 12 this year spent 2.4 billion on facial skin care alone, which is up 27% from the year before. Because this is becoming the norm. It's like everyone of all ages needs to have a very involved skincare routine. We think that it's healthy when it's really not. And I've written a lot about that before about like beauty products and beauty standards for babies and children.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right. I remember Dior came out with their like, Baby yeah fragrance line.

[Jessica Defino]

Baby fragrance baby moisturizer.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right.

[Jessica Defino]

And like, I think it's easy to brush off and be like, this isn't a big deal, but like I just really think it, it is kind of a big deal. Like what, what like what beauty products do is like they teach the practical application of beauty standards. Like products all carry messages about like what society considers beautiful or ugly, what's normal, what's unsightly, like what's worthy of admiration or what's disgusting. And like a product's purpose informs the user's purpose. So if like a product is telling you you must reduce your under eye bags, you become someone who must engage in the work of reducing your under eye bags like from the age of six on.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You know, and like you said, it's not even that these products are just teaching them like what potential problems could be happening with their, their face and their appearance. Like what they should be concerned about. Like even in that quote you said, I mean what's super concerning to me like beyond a familiarity with like these products in general, it's literally the specific she wants the real caffeine energizing hydrogel eye patches. It's like, you know, it is marketing hyper specifically the exact product that they need to fix this problem.

[Jessica Defino]

And it's marketing to a consumer who is a child, who is not equipped with critical thinking skills, who like can't logically think through this. Like very vulnerable, like not just psychologically but physically to the ingredients that are in the products. And like something that I just, you know, I sound like a broken record every time I talk about beauty standards. But like what we have to consider when we see this like very direct case of toy to product usage to parents spending 2.4 billion on skincare alone for six year olds a year, is that beauty standards like are associated with a lot of psychological risk. Like not even talking about physical risks, ingredient safety, environmental impact, like they're associated with like instances of appearance related anxiety, depression, dysmorphia, disordered eating, self harm. There was an article in the New York Times like years ago that pointed to a study that said like seeing a beauty product package, like just the package, no model is enough to like remind consumers quote of their own shortcomings and make them view themselves more negatively. So like just the bottle, right?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Is that powerful on your psyche? Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. And then since the like tween skincare boom last year, one poll that I saw earlier this year of teens and body image, this was the first year I think that skin was ranked teens number one concerned over body and weight. And it's because like this is the thing to focus on now. So like I Think I don't know, I think we need to be like looking at beauty culture and thinking of it as the face focused twin of diet culture. And then when you put it in those terms it becomes a lot more concerning. Like would you give a child a toy of ephedra pill? Would you give them a toy of like a syringe of Ozempic? Like honestly probably we would today, but still that's like fucking weird.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, no it's a great point. We really don't, we, we. I feel like they've done a very good job of positioning this type of stuff as self care. Right. Or like preventative or whatever. Or like oh you know, it's just moisturizer, like what's the harm? It's like well you just laid out the harm pretty clearly and when you do position as kind of like the twin of eating disorder culture and like body insecurity, like you start to see, I think, yeah, the ramifications of all of this. And like you said like just kind of the way media already gets it into, you know, our heads way too young that all this stuff is important and matters and to the marketing so specifically at this age group kind of is just another sinister level of that. I don't know. And also I wonder kind of even just like kids using these products so young, like the long term. Literal effects. Yeah, physical effects.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. We don't really have a lot of studies and the studies that we do have are really concerning. I think I've mentioned this on the POD before but like especially there have been more studies that are looking at adolescents going through puberty and the beauty products they use and what happens during puberty because the body is more vulnerable at that time especially to like endocrine disrupting chemicals and, and things like that. And there's like more concern about using certain products at a certain age, how that might speed up the puberty process. Girls are getting their periods younger and their seam to be some connection so far in the data between products being used for personal care and the early onset of puberty. The earlier you get your period the more likely you are to like develop fibroids, develop breast cancer in the future. So like there are real risks here and we like certainly don't have enough data but I think what we do have is concerning enough.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Quite scary.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. We need to rethink the selling toys to 6 year olds to make them want fucking butt polish and caffeine eye gel under eyeshadow which is wild also.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I know wild inclusion also. I just think about like being a teen myself and or a preteen and like already, you know, that's in the early aughts we're talking about and like acne, right? It's just like the most fraught time for your skin, you know, and to imagine people having like, we didn't know anything about skincare when we were growing up, you know what I mean? It was kind of like Neutrogena and like clean and clear. And if that didn't work for you, you're kind of fresh out of luck on the acne front, you know, and for people to be such experts and like to know so much and to have such an emphasis on like perfect, I don't know, it adds like a whole new insane layer to it. Like it's already traumatic enough to me.

[Jessica Defino]

I think it makes it scarier because like a lot of people will argue against this and be like, this isn't anything new. Like, kids have been worrying about beauty and beauty products forever. Like you mimic what the adults around you do. This is normal. And like, yes, that's true. What's different is the size and scope of the beauty industry and the funnels that it leads us down in terms of what's accessible in terms of like really harsh ingredients, procedures, starting younger and younger plastic surgeries. It's like the beauty industry is worse, right?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And it's infiltrated this age group way deeper than it ever has before and is marketing way harder towards them than it ever has before. And you have the backup of social media, like amplifying that tenfold and being like, why aren't you doing a 10 step skincare routine at 8 years old? You know, and here is what's wrong with all your face and how to fix it.

[Jessica Defino]

Right, right. No, I think it's scary and I think Ulta needs to look inside and change its ways, you know.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But I will be continuing to buy grocery store products. I'm so sorry.

[Jessica Defino]

No, those I like, I love them.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

They're so stupid.

[Jessica Defino]

This also is, you know, a full confirmation of my 2024 prediction that the skincare industry would be like fully inf by the end of the year. Not only to cater to kids, but to infantilize its core customers of grown adult women.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You know, I now that you're talking about like the infantilization, I am kind of surprised that like they aren't trying to like get into baby, like newborn baby kind of market and be like, oh, like if we can like take their placenta or something, we can make some like hyper Specific product for them based on their DNA and like, oh, my God. You know what I mean? Like, I'm surprised they aren't even trying to. They're younger.

[Jessica Defino]

You need to stay quiet because you are going to revolutionize.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I know. I have the insane. I have the worst possible ideas for every industry and no one should listen. I should keep them to myself because they are truly scary. But my brain immediately is like, why are we marketing to baby?

[Jessica Defino]

That's going to happen. Well, there is already, like, placenta beauty.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right? There's already stem cell stuff. So I'm like, why aren't we taking the baby's own stem cell? That I understand. This is bad, everyone. So. But why aren't we taking the baby's stem cells and placenta and umbilical cord and turning that into beauty products they can then use for the rest of their lives to keep themselves, like, eternally? Baby.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my God.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Beauty industry, hire me. Pay me a million dollars for this horrible curse.

[Jessica Defino]

Emily, for your next script.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, that's true. David Cronenberg and I would really have some things to say. Right? Some body horror things. Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

Should we. Should we jump into 2025 predictions for fashion and beauty?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, let's do it. It. Yeah. I have a few more troubling ideas to share with you about some things that I see in fashion to come. Obviously, like we talked about last month, I think there's going to be the constructed curves thing. I see no sign of stopping. Like, it's just kind of gearing up. Even since we spoke last month, there's been a ton more panniers. We've seen a lot more extreme hips and extreme busts out there. Even just today in my newsletter, I wrote about a recent outfit that Jared Leto wore on stage. I don't know if you saw it, but he is wearing, like, the widest, craziest possible linebacker shoulder pads. And I was just thinking that that's such, like, a interesting alpha male twist on kind of the whole paneer trend, like building up this fake hyper muscular body, you know, which is funny.

[Jessica Defino]

Specifically for Jared. Let's. Who I feel like has not traditionally cared about hyper masculinity.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

No, he does not care about hyper masculinity, but he certainly cares about physique and, like, being extremely ripped and like, climbing up buildings where no one wants him to. But yeah, I thought that was very interesting and I don't know, sort of like a logical extension also of James Charles sculpted metal torso top that we talked about last time. And I personally have been Egging famous men on for years now to wear kind of like fake muscle suits under their clothes, to just give up on the gym fantasy entirely and just start faking it. Like a padded bra, but, like, for your muscles, for your abs. It's very. George Michael from Arrested Development is always my touchstone for that.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my gosh. Yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Know that reference.

[Jessica Defino]

If this manifests in 2025, like, I don't.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It just makes sense to me. Like, we.

[Jessica Defino]

I think it's going to. I think you're a genius.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, because similarly, the way that, you know, the beauty industry kind of similarly pivoted from, like, making women insecure about everything about their bodies to making men insecure about everything their bodies, it's like fashion has really, like, underplayed it, I think. You know, like, why not pat out the bulge? Like, why not pat out the pecs? Like, why are we so focused on women wearing padded bras and waist trainers and, you know, squeezing their bodies into different shapes?

[Jessica Defino]

And honestly, that would be, like, so much healthier for the male body than, like, injecting steroids. And.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's very true.

[Jessica Defino]

And undergoing these extreme diets.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. And I think would just create very interesting new silhouettes, very interesting new proportions. Like, I don't know. I always feel like we've kind of mined women's. The extremes of women's fashion for pretty much all it's worth. Right. And I'm always deeply disappointed in famous men's out. Like, we are still just wearing boring old suits. Like, get over it.

[Jessica Defino]

It's time.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So, yeah, I would like to see something a little more intense happening with them and their. Their constructed curves. Although they're welcome to wear panniers as well. It's not. That's a gender neutral fashion. True as our cone bras. If they want to get into that, that could be really, really fabulous. Jared Leto. That could be something. Look into it.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I think that's great.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Would you like to offer one of your trends or should I take my insane thoughts? Okay.

[Jessica Defino]

Okay. I guess on the, like, false construction of the body tip, I think that we are going to see a lot of Ozempic replenishment supplements hit the market.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Totally. I feel like we already are starting. Didn't. Lemme come out with one or something?

[Jessica Defino]

Well, Lemmy came out with it's like GLP1.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, it's. Oh, you're right. Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

So it's like trying to mimic Ozempic, but there's been a lot of concern about, like, not getting enough nutrients because you're not hungry and you're not eating. And then particularly for skin, like dermatologists and plastic surgeons have been saying that like Ozempic does crazy things to your skin because you're losing a lot of your fat and it's not as resilient and things like that. So I think we're going to see like ingestible supplements and also topical supplements that are like specifically made for or marketed for people who are on GLP1s and need to like replenish their skin.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

You just reminded me that especially this month, I've seen so many Ozempic face headlines like, these stars are suffering from Ozempic face. And I was like, I'm not gonna click on that. Cause I'm not gonna encourage that line. But I'm like, what does that even mean? Like, gaunt. They look gaunt. Is that what they're saying?

[Jessica Defino]

I think they're saying they look gaunt. But also I think that might also be part of the facelift or renaissance that we're seeing now.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, also I was thinking, I was like, did we, did all these people not just get buccal fat removal? Like, is that not what you're talking? You know what I mean? Like, they just sucked all the fat out of their face before this Ozempic thing even happened. So, like, are you not just responding to the surgeries that you were just praising them all for doing? For making extreme cheekbones, like a hundred percent, 100%.

[Jessica Defino]

So it's like left incredible them with like potentially sagging skin from losing fat. And then you've already taken out the buccal fat and then you go in and you tighten up the face with the facelift. Yeah, I think that might have something to do with it, but yeah, that's my prediction.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Sure. I mean, whenever you start tweaking and plumping and pulling, things start to go awry.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. You gotta compensate on the other end.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Something else that I feel. Well, we're already in it, but I feel like it's gonna go into overdrive. Is. I think we're heading into an homage psychosis on the red carpet is what I'm calling it in 2025.

[Jessica Defino]

I love that term.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Thank you so much. Basically, this started obviously last year with the Barbie press tour, which, you know, was heavily, heavily Barbie themed in a way that I really don't think we've seen that kind of like heavy handed spawn con, the Mattel of it all down to Margot Robbie's wardrobe being full recreations of the doll's wardrobe. And I think that that really has changed the entire landscape of like what a movie press tour, what the outfits look like. And now there's this weird expectation that you do have to kind of be almost in full costume or like the outfits have to heavily reference the film. That's never, that's. I don't do. Are people have short term memory problems. Like that's literally never been the case. Like beautiful gowns, gorgeous gowns is all that matters.

[Jessica Defino]

I feel like that's why I'm so bored of red carpets lately is because we're not really getting any celebrities like true personal style or like any experimentation therein. It's like all very, very themed. Too much.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

The theme. Yes. Can get really heavy handed to me, especially when it's not really being done in a smart way or like a clever way. I don't know. Like I was thinking about Zendaya during the challengers press review and I was like. I would argue that was like a slightly smarter way of doing this trend. Right. Like you're. You're ramming a tennis ball onto the. A stiletto heel, you know, or like you're wearing a tennis skirt. It's like a little vaguer than maybe something like the wicked press tour where it's literal green and pink, green and pink witch hands on the shoulders, you know, just like Galinda magic wand. I don't know, it seems like a little too on the nose to me. And then of course this is also in my mind very much tied into all of the red carpet homages we've been seeing specific we talked about in this podcast, but specifically at like the VMAs this year where we have all these pop stars wearing old pop stars clothing. It's the Kim Kardashian wearing Marilyn Monroe's dress of effect where it's like everyone just wants to wear things that other famous people have already worn for some reason. Mostly to me because that's how the media covers stuff. You know, the media is as much.

[Jessica Defino]

Complicit in all guaranteed clips.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's a guaranteed storyline. And it's the same way with this thematic dressing, right? Like every time these things come out, you get an automatic gallery from every fashion website in the world being like, look at all these wicked themed green and pink dresses. It's like they can't really make content like that unless you're kind of giving them the built in framework for it, if that makes sense. Like if your dress was just random and looked different at every single. That's not a cohesive story for the media to latch Onto Whereas like these very obviously are. And anyway, the psychosis part of it to me really comes with. Most recently we saw Timothee Chalamet promoting a complete unknown by doing full Bob Dylan cosplay.

[Jessica Defino]

I'm like shaking my head so hard right now. This was.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's fascinating. It's like a really interesting choice.

[Jessica Defino]

I really did not like it.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I felt so torn about it. As I wrote in my newsletter, it's just such an interesting choice for such a serious movie. You know, like these other ones we're talking about are much lighter fare and also like not about real people, not biopic. Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

That's what made it so strange to see. It's not like you're like in a Barbie costume. You're just like wearing. Wearing an outfit that like some guy Wore.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Literally wore 20, 10 years ago. Yeah, yeah. I don't know is very. Yeah, it was very interesting. For those who don't know, Timothy Chalamet dressed up exactly like Bob Dylan when this, this very specific like heavily memed photo of Bob Dylan attending the 2003 Sundance Film Festival. Because basically Bob was blonde at the time for some reason. Like had blonde bangs and he just looks like such a little emo scene kid. Like it's so 2003 to me. Like he's got the beanie and I don't know, it's a very popular meme photo. And so like a very weird and specific, very hyper online choice in my opinion for Timothy to reference versus like every other era of Bob Dylan. Also this movie does not even cover that era of Bob. You know, like it's specifically focused on the 60s, I believe the late 60s. So also like kind of a wild out of pocket choice. Also my personal problem with it is that Timothy didn't even wear blue eye contacts or get the blue eye surgery. I was also thinking of you.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh my God. He should have.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Because I was like he really should have committed to the bit. You know, Bob's a blue eyed man.

[Jessica Defino]

He truly is.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And that's kind of ruining the whole cosplay.

[Jessica Defino]

The technology is there, Timothy.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Exactly. The technology is there, Timothee. But yeah, so I see that as kind of just a harbinger of what's to come. Where we're going to see celebrities not. Yeah. Move beyond just like simple costume or homaging. Kind of like something really more elaborate and also something way more like specific and niche and memeable and Internet joke focused. So it's like you're catering more to like an in crowd than kind of mainstream, maybe pop culture knowledge. Right. And yeah, it's also similar. I don't know if people know this, maybe this is just my pet intro, but the Met. It's similar to what's happened to the Met Gala over the last decade. The Met Gala is famously used to just be a red carpet like any other. I mean, like, it was way more gowns, it was black tie. Right. It was like couture, but it was pretty simple overall. It wasn't like the huge spectacle that it is today. And over the last decade, especially with the help of Kim Kardashian, we've seen it kind of move into this, like, extreme over the top, like, true performance art almost, of outfits. You know, I'm thinking about, like, even Jared Leto again in the Chupette mascot costume, or Katy Perry dressed up as a chandelier and a hamburger. You know, it's like, it's really, like, comical almost. It's not really about fashion. Fashion anymore.

[Jessica Defino]

Right, right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I see red carpets kind of trending in a similar direction because there isn't newfound expectations from the public about, like, what they are consuming from rich people. And on one level, I totally get it, because these people are so rich. They have entire teams dedicated to creating this story, these outfits, these moments. They should be insane theatrical spectacle. But I don't know, that's just a very radically different expectation than we've ever had before. And I think we're going to see really regular red carpets kind of shift to meet those goals, even to the point that, honestly, I could see kind of of like prosthetics getting involved, like kind of a Heidi Klum Halloween party moment, like showing up as a worm.

[Jessica Defino]

Well, remember when Cardi B was supposed to wear, like, old age prosthetics to the Met Gala this year and then she decided not to.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But, like, I loved those prosthetics.

[Jessica Defino]

That would have been incredible.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Those were so beautiful. Alexis Stone was. Was doing them for her incredible drag queen. But yeah, those were beautiful. That would have been incredible. And yeah, I can see see something like that kind of like, you know, high effort, but, like, low key kind of effect almost. But, like, really powerful virality could be generated from something like that. I can see that happening. Oh, my God. You also just remember that M. Night Shyamalan movie about the beach where you, like, went on the beach. The beach.

[Jessica Defino]

That makes you old.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. I was just thinking, I was like, wow, someone should have done that for that movie. Wouldn't that be incredible if they walked the red carpet once? Young and Then they circled back once old.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my God.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

This is why people shouldn't be allowed access to my thoughts.

[Jessica Defino]

No, this is, like, this is going to be your, like, old age career as. As like an eccentric consultant.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I think I look forward to it.

[Jessica Defino]

Okay, so my beauty prediction, in line with homage, I think is going to be homage to AI, homage to cyborgs. I'm calling it Stepford Face or Stepford Skin.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And we kind of talked about that last time with the Kim Kardashian cyborg. You know, not unrelated.

[Jessica Defino]

Exactly. And then some other new references that came up related to that is the movie on Netflix subservience where Megan Fox plays an AI assistant.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, yes, I've seen the trail.

[Jessica Defino]

And I mean, it's fascinating to me because she's playing an AI, but she's just Megan Fox. Like, she looks exactly like she is. And it's like, such confirmation of the fact that, like, the beauty ideal, which, like, many would say Megan Fox embodies completely, is not really. It's more inhuman than human in terms of being inspired by, yeah, tech and all of that. And then also, did you see the newest Vogue Portugal cover? It's got the model on the COVID is like, her hair is like electronic cords. Her lipstick is like a circuit board. It's very like, AI robotic cyborgian.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, interesting. I wonder if she's wearing Schiaparelli. Do you remember that Schiaparelli dress he made that was all out of, like, motherboards and she was carrying the baby that was also made out of, like. I wonder if that was the inspiration for it. Or she's wearing that because it might be that. I feel like that's also tied into all of that, is kind of like. Yeah, glamorized computer aesthetic.

[Jessica Defino]

And I don't think this is anything new. Like, I've been talking about cyborg skin for, like, two years, but I think it's just going to become more and more, like, mainstream. And rather than, like, this celebrity ideal, it's just going to be sort of standard fare for the every woman. Just sort of this continuation of Instagram face, of cyborg skin, of, like, what we've seen the past year of, like, agelessness being the goal versus anti aging. Like, machines don't age, you know?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Very Brian Johnson core.

[Jessica Defino]

Very Brian Johnson core.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Don't die.

[Jessica Defino]

Dehumanizing. Yeah, just very, like, dehumanized. Inhuman.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. The body as machine.

[Jessica Defino]

Body as machine. You call it the Girl Borg.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Ooh, Girl Borg. Very girl Boss Girl Borg.

[Jessica Defino]

And then on the other end of that, like as we dehumanize aesthetically or visually, I think we're going to see more attempts to rehumanize ourselves and purchase feeling via product. So interesting. Like I posted this on Twitter the other day, but like, I really think the year's fragrance boom this past year is. Is partly due to the fact that perfume is the closest thing we have to mass producing and consuming feelings. Because of how scent interacts with the brain and the limbic system and like bypasses logical thought. Like it's very much marketed on like what feeling it's going to give you or a sort of nostalgia. There was like a recent launch from a beauty brand called Fluffy and they named their blush shades after Feeling. So there's like blush in the shade, nervous blush in the shade, shy.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Doesn't Selena Gomez's. Doesn't rare beauty do that also?

[Jessica Defino]

Selena Gomez's is very much like that. Hers are more like Joy Dream. You're, you know, beautiful Feelings. Like it's a little bit more obscure but like this is a little bit more on the nose. I think so. I think like in the era of woman as machine feelings become a luxury I item.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, that's very interesting.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. So I think big, I think neuro cosmetics will continue to grow. And then I'm predicting the first therapist developed skincare line maybe through like a celebrity partnership, like in the vein of Lili Reinhart doing her like feelings.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's gonna be like Jay Shetty for sure.

[Jessica Defino]

I think so. I think it's gonna be like some TikTok famous therapist is going to have like a feelings focus focused skincare brand.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Or your trauma through a step skincare routine.

[Jessica Defino]

Exactly.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Suit your nerves.

[Jessica Defino]

But I see it as being very directly related to like dehumanizing aesthetics.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's very interesting. Also considering the whole the maga gang is getting into the beauty, maybe an opportunity for Dr. Phil to get in there.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh my God. Wait, do you know about Dr. Phil's wife's beauty brand?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I sure.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh my gosh. I have to look it up. It's like no longer in existence. But this was like an obsession of mine for years. And they would promote her beauty products at the end of every Dr. Phil episode. They'd be like, robyn, get up here and tell us about your product. And they had the most wild names that it was like the. I know I'm actually 60, but don't I only look 50? Look how good I look Serum.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like it's a paragraph every.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh my gosh, I need to find it. I Actually, I pitched this to the Cut year. You know, their series. That's like. I can't stop thinking about. I was like, I need to write about Dr. Phil's wife's skincare line.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I would have loved to read about that. I had no idea. But I mean, if ever there was a time to bring it back, I feel like it's now.

[Jessica Defino]

I'm like, going through my pitches right now, actually, because I need to look. Okay, here are some of the names. She's looking great lately. What's going on? Face mask. Oh, my God. Is this really me? Instant Face Shaper.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Oh, my God. I love that. It's like a whole piece of dialogue. Like it's not a real name.

[Jessica Defino]

No, she is one cool chick. I really heart her. Face mask. Okay, what has she done? I must do it. Fine line and wrinkles. Face mask.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's perfect. Honestly, these are so. What is the name? Name of this whole brand? These are the products. But is it just like Robin's, Robin's Beauty or something? Or is it like, wow, what is Robin doing to her face? These products look good.

[Jessica Defino]

I do not. I think it was just called Robin McGraw Skincare. I really think it was just so.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Simple and the products are so complicated.

[Jessica Defino]

I don't know, maybe I like. Oh, it was called revelation. Robin McGraw. Revelation.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'm certainly feeling a revelation right now. That's really phenomenal.

[Jessica Defino]

I think I have to bring this back. And even though the line is defunct, I must write about it. Thank you for reminding me of this.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, no, thank you for bringing that into my life. Speaking of products, another trend that I foresee is kind of an extension of what we've talked about in the past. And what you've talked about in your newsletter is kind of like the shelfiest self.

[Jessica Defino]

I agree with this prediction 100%.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Thank you so much. And also something I've said before about, you know, self care products being worn outside as almost a status symbol. In the past, I've talked about like, you know, Anne Hathaway or the rapper Saweetie kind of wearing like eye patches while running. Yeah, while running. Or a face mask while running errands. And like, that kind of being a way to communicate luxury or time or. Yeah. Class. And I. I see kind of as an extension of that in the year to come. You know, people, I think, very much want to flaunt their consumerism. They want to show off the types of brands that they associate with and the goods that they purchase beyond just kind of like your standard luxury labels, like A Chanel purse or whatever. And I can kind of see them beginning to find. And fashion as well, beginning to find new ways to strap them to their purse almost. I don't know. I have a hard time explaining this, but it's like what it conjures in my mind is like kind of Harriet the Spy's tool belt in the way she would like strap all this stuff herself. Or for those of you out there who have seen the show, the horrible show. And just like that, Lisa Todd Wexley wears this 2021 Moschino jacket that looks like a safari jacket that then has all these little like pockets and straps and stuff for various beauty supplies.

[Jessica Defino]

It's a self shelf.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It's a self shelf. Totally. That's a really good way of putting. Putting it. Yeah. And so we can already kind of like see this starting to happen this year. Specifically the Rode iPhone case. And how like crazy popular that is, I think is. I don't know. I've been baffled by the popularity of this iPhone case from the beginning. As I've always said, it's extremely vaginal to me. Yes, people get very mad when I say that. But I find it to be very yonic.

[Jessica Defino]

And lips on lip gloss.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I find it to be lips on lip gloss. For sure. Sure. And then we have like the Edie Parker Burn clutch that has like a lighter that's kind of built into the handbag. Or there's this accessories designer that Dua Lipa just wore, Karina Gutos, and she makes something called a lit clip, which is like a lighter that's been turned into a hair clip. And even on TikTok you have this, this big trend called the bookmark bag that's basically like, it's. How do I put this? It's a bookmark with a chain strap that you can kind of just toss your book over the top of so that you can like not just carry around your book, but like carry around your book in a way that shows it off so that other people know your literary and exactly what you're reading and kind of like again, as a status symbol, like as a way to communicate, like this is the type of person I am. This is what I'm interested in. I see people becoming more interested in kind of like self projected, like using themselves as a billboard in that way to express their preferences, their status, their class. Yeah, their, their status as a consumer.

[Jessica Defino]

I think this is like super spot on. I put a similar prediction. I don't know, the magazine must be out now. I don't Know, some French magazine like a couple months ago asked for some predictions and I put a similar one there. And I'm also trying to pitch a story about this now and if it doesn't get accepted, I'll just write about it for the newsletter. But like, part of my theory about why these like accessories for your beauty products are so popular is like feeling a sense of kinship with objects. The more women are objectified.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

And like, it's like you have to buy the little products for your beauty products because you're like identifying with them in some way.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Like, right, your lip gloss needs a little sweater.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. Your special little lip gloss needs a special little phone case. Like there are like purses that are made for lip gloss. Now it's like, oh, the lip gloss that like clips onto your Stanley cup. You know, it's all just, oh my.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

God, you just made me think about the. There's like a Louis Vuitton necklace that just holds like one. And a Gucci one as well actually, that just holds a singular lipstick canister.

[Jessica Defino]

Exactly. I mean, there's like, I think too faced. Just put out like a ring that holds a lip gloss.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, that's a, that's a classic from our youth.

[Jessica Defino]

I mean, that's a classic, but it's back. But yeah, objects on objects for objects.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Objects for objects meta objects into oblivion, I feel like is the future.

[Jessica Defino]

I completely agree. I also think that we are going to see smoking specific skincare marketing. More people are smoking. It's glamorous now again. And I think, I don't know if we'll see like a specific skincare line. But my prediction is like, marketing is going for like skincare for smokers, ingredients that smokers need. What. How does smoke affect your skin and what do you need to like combat that? I could see it coming from like Alex Cooper's Unwell brand or something similar.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Honestly, like a way smarter product launch for her than this like weird energy drink thing she's trying to do. I'm like, what does that really have to do with your brand? Like, first of all, if you're gonna do a drink, why not do like a Pedialyte type hangover drink?

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's your brand. And yes, I would say like, oh, you've, you made some mistakes last night. Like let's fix up your face so they don't show, you know, like, right. Hungover, smoking too much type beauty products I could see being a big thing for. And also I think smoking related beauty products is smart because you can take it in Multiple different directions. Right. It's like for the vapor, for the pot smoker, for the old school cigarette smoker. It's like they each need their own customized, catered, different. Different kind of like, regimen, if you will.

[Jessica Defino]

Right, right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Also, this is maybe just me being hopeful about the future and what I would like to see in fashion, but I think we're going to see kind of an anti cleavage movement amongst celebrities, not the masses. The masses aren't ready for this yet, but amongst. It's got to trickle down first. But I do think among celebrities, because I just, you know, I've been. My whole business is kind of tracing the evolution of nudity and outrage and our shock to it, or lack thereof, especially recently. Complete lack thereof. And we've kind of pushed it. Well, I'll get to another part of it later where we could push it farther, but we have kind of pushed it to like, its endpoint, its logical conclusion. And, you know, the full boob is out now and nobody cares. You know, women are just walking around in G strings on the red carpet and everyone's kind of like, meh, you know, seen it before, no big deal. And so I've speculated for a little while now that one of the big paths forward for this trend is we have to make boobs strange again. Like, we need to honestly desexualize them in like, weird, strange, uncanny ways that make people nervous about them and kind of like, uncomfortable. And so, yeah, I've seen this already kind of taking a couple different forms, which is, you know, pushing them asunder. So you kind of get no cleavage at all. You just get like a weird, expansive rib cage with the boobs to the side or. I love it. Or you. Or dragging them down to the ground.

[Jessica Defino]

I love the idea of a saggy.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Me too. I'm very obsessed with the idea of a saggy boob. And again, anti cleavage. Right. Instead of pushing them up to our chins, kind of pulling them down to our waist, we've already kind of started to see this. Specifically, Julia Fox, of course, always, always a mess trailblazer. But she wore this crop. This white T shirt, like, crop top that had two. How to explain this kind of feed bags almost coming off the chest that were just like long kind of instanted, like floppy bags that went down to her waist and like, her chest was in them. But it like. Yeah, it kind of of created this illusion that it was full to the end with them. I love that in a really long, like, it was very Demi Moore in the substance.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, okay.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It was very that, but in a T shirt. And I really see that kind of catching in popularity. There's Cailee Spanney, who was Priscilla in Priscilla. She wore this Miu Miu dress, which gave me the idea of kind of. Which first gave me the idea of anti cleavage, actually, because it had a huge cutout on her rib pink cage. And the only way to wear it is to kind of shove your boobs to the side or else they're gonna pop out the center, which is fine. That's interesting too. I'm not opposed to that either, but there's something very uncomfortable about them not being where you expect them to be. And I see that being like a really a rich text. First of minor, even just this week, Kim Kardashian wore this horrible pleather jumpsuit. And I know it wasn't her intention, but because it was skims. And so because it wasn't built well and there was no kind of bone in the corsetry, it ended up just like. It was all taped up, so it ended up pulling her boobs down. And I was like, wow, that is actually so subversive to see Kim Kardashian with a saggy boob.

[Jessica Defino]

It's the first Kim look you've liked in so long.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

That's so true. That is very. And I didn't like it, but I did like it. Yeah, it's been a while, me and her on the outs, I think, but I just think. Yeah, I think it's a true subversion of, like, traditional beauty standards, which I always think is, like, really a powerful place for celebrities to draw ideas from.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I think inspired by. I mean, this year in the. In the boob space, plastic surgery wise, we've seen a lot of reductions and we've seen implants of, like, small implants. Like, the small boob is more desirable. And so my prediction for next year is that this will move. Move to the butt area. I think we're gonna see an uptick in, like, lipo on the ass and butt reductions or maybe even small butt implants.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I was thinking like a WASP bbl.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes, a WASP bbl.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

A slim BBL profile.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, that's a great name for it. But yeah, I think it's going to be like the small but sculpted butt.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right. Like a little lift, but not too much volume. Yeah, I definitely see that. I also have a prediction that furries are entering their mainstream era. Furries, as in the sexual fetish of dressing up like an animal? Oh, I know what you mean. Just clarifying. For those out there who might not be as well versed in the furry verse as we are, you know. But yeah, in the newsletter I've, I've joked around for a while, always the case I'm joking and then suddenly it's all too real. But I've been joking around for a while about like Hollywood is full of furries because they do, once you start noticing it like they really do wear a lot of like cat ears and like bunny ears in like weird situations where you're like. Or is that something you enjoy? Would you like to tell us about your fursona? Like I'm ready to hear it. Not only can I see them, I've been seeing them going mainstream basically this month. I've been just seeing a heavy handed amount of examples of like animal inspired accessories and trends making it onto the red carpet. This started again kind of joking, but Trixie Mattel went to Elisa Vanderpump from Real Housewives event and she posed with these two people dressed up as in very scary dog costumes. Like very cursed, very haunted wanted little dog mascot costumes. And anyone who knows anything about Lisa Vanderpump, she is into animals sexually. She, if you log on to her Instagram, she is regularly posting images of creatures I guess I would say that are like half man, half dog. Like. Oh, you don't know about this? No, this is like a well known fact in my brain. But yeah, Lisa, Lisa. Well Lisa has always said that on the show that she's like in love with her dogs and blah blah, blah. She's like a big time animal lover. But when you log on to her social media you will see that it kind of goes beyond just can't casual animal support into something a little more sexual where she does seem to actually want to marry. Yeah, some sort of dog man. She posts a lot of pictures of like dogs in business suits is what I'll say. I guess. Yeah. So check that out for yourself. So that, yeah, that's what started it. And then Kylie Jenner did this whole editorial for her brand Kai with Nepo model Emelia Gray. And Emelia was wearing various cheetah masks for a reason I don't quite understand. Nothing about the clothing was cheetah related. It was all just like plain black sequins, like evening wear. I don't know. But so I thought that was very interesting and strange. And then shortly after that we got another Real Housewives. Kyle Richards went to the premiere of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills with her hair twisted up into antlers. Very reminiscent of Lana Del Rey at the Metcala, which of course is a reference to Alexander McQueen Widows of Caldogne collection.

[Jessica Defino]

Also reminds me of. Do you watch Yellowjackets?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes, yes, very.

[Jessica Defino]

That the like Antler Queen.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yes. And then just this week, Katy Perry also performed in a set of metal horns.

[Jessica Defino]

I saw that.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I think, yes. I said that she looked like a jackalope. Because she does. For those who know what a jackalope is a fictional animal. And then. Yeah. And then just yesterday, Sza put out her album cover which was full of little mess tidbits and trends that I predicted and she was wearing full bug prosthetics. And I don't know if we are counting bugs beneath the furry community, but I am.

[Jessica Defino]

I think we should.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I'm going to include them. I want to be inclusive of all the bug fetishists as well. And I just think it's very interesting that we're kind of trending towards all these. Yeah. Animorph style fashions. It feels to me, I think I talked about this on my YouTube this month, but it feels to me that as it becomes more clear that our planet is going to die and that Global warming is 100% happening and we're not going to reverse it, it makes sense to me to make gestures towards the natural world as kind of rarefied and exclusive and luxurious because it's not going to exist for much longer and the people who are going to continue to have access to it are going to be the rich upper class people. And so I don't know, this seems like kind of getting a jump maybe on that.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. And just like I'm like trying to think of how to phrase it, but.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I've shocked you with my furry knowledge.

[Jessica Defino]

It's just like no gestures to the natural world that are completely unnatural. Which is why we're losing the natural world, you know, Totally.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Because even we're talking about like Katy Perry's horns are like out of molded metal, you know, like. Yeah, they're this cyborg Borg like you said.

[Jessica Defino]

Exactly. It's sci fi version of animalization.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Totally.

[Jessica Defino]

It's interesting to put it that way because my next prediction was that the new high maintenance to be low maintenance for 2025 is going to be natural to be unnatural or unnatural to be natural, which will be a focus on using naturally derived ingredients, likely from one's own body, like stem cells. Cells. Since RFK Jr seems very invested in unleashing stem cell technology via his appointment as the head of the FDA to achieve very like unnatural looking Aesthetics of Botox, of facelifts. So it's going to be this like sort of glorification of the natural, like similar to, you know, beef tallow. But the goal will be a very like, not of nature, not of this world aesthetic.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

And then slightly related. But my other last prediction is that I think utter balm is going to be the next viral skincare trend.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Okay, let me. I. I'm a bag balm girl, so I'm all for it. I'm with you.

[Jessica Defino]

I think I make sense.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

To me, it works. Hey, it works. Hey, but speaking of. Yeah, animals, you know, incorporating the animal world into our. Into our sex. And also you just reminded me with the, the natural to look unnatural. Do you remember when the like Kylie Jenner lip challenge.

[Jessica Defino]

Yes, yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Is that not kind of like in the vein of that where you're like suction cupping your lips and like having glass explode on your face to like make your mouth look like it's been plumped full of filler? Completely, completely natural to look completely unnatural.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

My last prediction is, I think, okay, I know I said this last year, but this year I really feel that this 2025 could be the year of visible pubes in the mainstream. Because this year didn't do it for me.

[Jessica Defino]

We've been hoping. We've been hoping.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

We've been edging. We've been edging all year. Yes. And I think it's time for it to really happen. Because this year felt like a tease. Because at the beginning of it, we get Margiela, of course, doing the haute couture merkins. And I was like, I'm here, I've arrived. It's my time is now. But then no celebrities wore them, which I find so offensive. And then we got like, I don't know. I wrote an article for the Cut at the beginning of the year. It's like we got a smattering of examples that seemed hopeful of. It was kind of like trompe l'oeil, you know, bare foopas. We got Doja Cat had a few Julia Fox. I do. And then it suddenly died out. But this year I feel like it could really enter the mainstream. And specifically I'm saying this because of SZA's new album cover. Right where she is bush out. Her pants are so low slung that you are getting the top of Bush and I. And like, I don't know, there's something very powerful about it. And I don't know, like that combined with the anti cleavage, just see it.

[Jessica Defino]

Being a real shock And I actually have a data point to add here.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Please do.

[Jessica Defino]

I do think that it's going to be a continuation of the Year of the Bush, this year's Year of the Bush. Because, you know, I do my Ask Ugly column every month at the Guardian and my last one went up yesterday, the day before we recorded this. So I was like reading it and checking the stats at the bottom because the Guardian will tell you, like, here are the top stories today in overall or the top 10 in lifestyle. So I always click on like the lifestyle to see how the story's doing. And every time I've done that since I've posted the Ask Ugly about the return of the bush, the Return of the Bush article is consistently in the top 10 stories of the day. Wow. Like six later. So even yesterday when I was checking, it was like my new column was the number two story and the state of the bush from like months ago was the number six story overall on the Guardians lifestyle section. So people are like, wow, seeking out media about the bush.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, they love it. And you, you're saying that just reminded me. I just went and checked because I was like, I'm pretty sure that my piece of about the bush is also my most popular on my newsletter. My most popular, most read story is did the Brazilian wax room sex from your whole debate. I love that about the bush.

[Jessica Defino]

So funny. Because I just did my, like, top 10 post. It's going to go out tomorrow, so it'll go out before people are listening to this podcast. But yeah, my pubic hair poll that set the whole thing off, I think was my number five story of the whole year on the newsletter. So the signs are there and yes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And like I said, celebrities gravitate towards things that make people talk and that upset people and that, like, keep them in the zeitgeist. And what could do that more than pubic hair? Get with it.

[Jessica Defino]

Plus, I can only imagine what the, like, manosphere is gonna do with the resurgence of pubes.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Exactly.

[Jessica Defino]

You know, they can't even handle Sydney Sweeney just like looking gorgeous in a.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Bikini, looking beautiful and having a normal, not even a normal body, like a sculpted for the gods body.

[Jessica Defino]

Exactly. Bikini. I can only imagine, like the rage bait potential of the full return of the bush.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right. And like, and because of that, I'm like, why not body hair in general? It's like, why are we missing this opportunity as famous women to just like, antagonize and provoke and incite? Like, you can just grow out some armpit hair, grow out some leg Hair like that alone, you don't have to show, you know, pupis.

[Jessica Defino]

No, no.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

To get the same effect. Like, I do think it's all kind of points to the same direction and could be really a powerful PR stunt if anyone wants to latch onto that out there.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I agree. I love that. Time for mess of the month.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

It is time for the mess of the month. Give it to me.

[Jessica Defino]

My mess of the month is Mar a Lago face. Have you heard of this?

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I haven't. I can imagine.

[Jessica Defino]

There was an article a couple weeks ago on the Daily Mail. There was one, I think, in, like, Vanity Fair, the Hollywood Reporter, about what people are calling Mar a Lago face, which is the overt plastic surgery aesthetic of Trump's inner circle and other conservative figureheads. So we're thinking Melania, Matt Gaetz, Laura Loomer, Kristi Noem, you know, that very, like, okay, there's obvious plastic surgery and overfilled lips and tight skin and. And motionless forehead look. So, yeah, they're calling this Mar a Lago face. I fucking hate that. I think this is such a false equivalency. Like, this overdone aesthetic is popular across the political spectrum of rich people.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right. I was gonna say, like, what's new about that? Like, that seems very standard plastic surgery up fate, you know, like, those are all the things we've been seeing trending and popular for quite a while now.

[Jessica Defino]

Right. And, like, Biden's eyebrows are just as high as Matt Gabe's eyebrows.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Facelift y.

[Jessica Defino]

Like, look at Nancy Pelosi, you know, the queen of this look. Madonna endorsed Kamala Harris.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Totally.

[Jessica Defino]

This aesthetic is not conservative face as much as it is, like, upper class face. And, like, of course, there's a lot of overlap there, but there are a ton of supposed liberals who aren't particularly class conscious, who funnel their money into their face in this way and look like supposed Mar a Lago face, too. Like, it's very Kardashian aesthetic, and they, like, flip flop politically all the time whenever it suits them. So my, my, my mess is just that, like, this is. This is a bipartisan beauty trend, and I think it's very, like, misguided to attach it to conservatives only.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right. It does feel like we're trying to, like, point a finger at them, but, like, we're actually just looking in a mirror.

[Jessica Defino]

The Mar a Lago mirror.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

We're very much doing that same stuff. Like, you just don't like the way they're doing and you want to make fun of them, but, like, you're doing the same procedures to yourself and exactly the same on you.

[Jessica Defino]

Yep.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, my mess of the month is orcas.

[Jessica Defino]

I love it. I love the animal theme today.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I know I'm. Now I am realizing, like, I am. Maybe I'm a furry, maybe I'm delving a little too deep in this, but I'm obsessed with this art. I have literally been telling everyone that I know. I have been shouting from the rooftops. I write about in the newsletter. I talk about it on YouTube and I'm going to talk about it to you here too, because I think it's so cute and fun funny, basically. A reader dropped this in my discord for the newsletter. But orcas in the Puget Sound have been wearing dead salmon on their heads as like little hats. And this is the first time they've done it in almost 40 years. So apparently it's so cute. You guys have to just. We'll leak out to the picture because you really need to see it to understand how weirdly adorable this is. But basically, orcas are like super intelligent and they're very social creatures. And so they pass on cultural traditions specific to their predators. Pod. And most of these types of traditions are adaptive for like, foraging purposes. So that's why you're seeing like a lot of whales attacking boats recently is that's kind of like a weird adaptive foraging strategy. This is like mis. Misguided. Yeah, it's a little. A little ether rich.

[Jessica Defino]

Foraging for rich assholes on a yacht.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Foraging for rich yacht assholes. But. So most of them are that type of tradition, but other ones can just be like, for fun, just like cute cultural stuff that. That pods like to do together. So in 1987, a female orca in the Puget Sound did this for the first time, or at least scientists documented it for the first time. And she put a dead fish on her nose. And then over the next several weeks, they watched as not only all of the orcas in her pod, but all the orcas in two nearby pods also started putting these dead fish on the their noses. And then by the next summer, they just had stopped. They just didn't do any. Like, the trend died. And there was like a couple of orcas who like, kept doing it. But like, they were just like latecomers to the trend. Like.

[Jessica Defino]

Right, they're like kind of like the losers.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, they were the losers who like, didn't get the memo. Like, we're so done with salmon hats.

[Jessica Defino]

Those of us who are still wearing skinny jeans.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Right, exactly.

[Jessica Defino]

Oracle world.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Exactly. And so scientists Just kind of assumed this was over because it hasn't happened since then. And then this October. October, they started doing it again in the Puget Sound. The orcas started putting these salmons back on their heads, and basically, they don't know why they're doing it. They think that maybe it's because there's, like, an excess of fish this season, and so they're, like, using their heads as lunch boxes. But I don't think that makes any sense at all.

[Jessica Defino]

I feel like. Aren't we always hearing that there's less fish? I don't know. Maybe it's just, like, not in a fishing area. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

But, yes, I don't know either. I am not a scientist. I am not a fishing expert, industry expert. This is just what I read in the article.

[Jessica Defino]

Very interesting.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Personally, I think it's a fashion statement. I think they're being fabulous and chic.

[Jessica Defino]

Right.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

And I think it has nothing to do with food. I think they just know that they look beautiful. And because of this, because of my obsession with the story and the fact that I won't stop talking about. My friend Diane sent me another story about this caterpillar called the gum leaf skeletonizer.

[Jessica Defino]

Okay, Badass.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I know. It's so heavy metal. It's so goth. It's basically because it eats eucalyptus leaves and, like, leaves. Only the skeleton of the eucalyptus leaf behind. That's why it's called that. But anyway, this caterpillar wears all of its old exoskeleton heads stacked up on top of each other like a little hat. So it wears them from largest, like, most recent, to smallest. When it was a baby. And stop. Yes. And because they all do this, they've earned the nickname the Mad Hatterpiller. And these caterpillars molt up to 13 times during this phase of its life. So the hat can grow, like, extremely tall. And the reason they do this is because it, like, protects them from predators, because the predators go after the fake heads, and they can go after the fake heads multiple times before actually getting to the caterpillar itself. So it keeps them safe. And I just would like to know why all of these animal fashion trends are, like, so much better and more heavy metal than our own. I think it's so cool.

[Jessica Defino]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. No, I love that. Because you know what? Because it's, like, functional.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Yeah.

[Jessica Defino]

You know.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Mm.

[Jessica Defino]

It's an aesthetic born out of necessity and purpose.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Well, except we're not sure about the salmon hat.

[Jessica Defino]

That's well, yeah, maybe that. Yeah.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Unclear what purpose that's serving, but I'm sure it serves some purpose, if even just to say, like, hey, I'm a fashionista. Everybody watch out.

[Jessica Defino]

I really love that.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

I know. Me too. I'll link out to both pictures so people can see what I'm talking about, because you really gotta get a gander to understand how cool it is.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah, I need to. Behold.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

So good.

[Jessica Defino]

All right, well, I think that does it. Our last mess of the whole year.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

Last mess of 2024. Thank you, guys for. For listening and for being here. It's crazy.

[Jessica Defino]

Yeah. Don't forget to, like and subscribe and review and. Yeah, we'll see you in 2025.

[Emily Kirkpatrick]

See you in the new year.