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- [00:16]
Jessica Defino
Hello and welcome to the Review of Mess, a podcast dedicated to discussing the highs and lows of pop culture every month. I'm Jessica Defino and I write the newsletter the Review of Beauty.
- [00:26]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I'm Emily Kirkpatrick. I write I heart Mess. And we're back.
- [00:30]
Jessica Defino
We're back.
- [00:31]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Back for March. What's going on?
- [00:35]
Jessica Defino
I'm recording from a co working space in a WeWork office instead of my beautiful home today.
- [00:42]
Emily Kirkpatrick
So gorgeous.
- [00:43]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, I'm feeling bougie. I'm feeling, you know, middle class freelancer.
- [00:49]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Part of the corporate world. Yeah, you're out and about. We did another podcast this month for people who are not paid subscribers. It was with Liz Goldwyn, who writes the newsletter Starfucker. And it was great. She's a joy to talk to. It was very fun and like, so.
- [01:04]
Jessica Defino
Much, so many little Hollywood gossip tidbits that I didn't expect to get. It's like a gold mine of gossip.
- [01:11]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I'm literally still thinking about some of the things she told us about, like, celebrities, writers, and like, what they're requesting in hotel rooms and stuff. It's like, it's so of the best, juiciest celeb gossip I've gotten in a minute. She should honestly think about starting a little gossip column on the side of Starfucker.
- [01:26]
Jessica Defino
Oh, my gosh.
- [01:26]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I would read that, I think would be wonderful.
- [01:29]
Jessica Defino
We're also thinking about doing a live podcast recording in New York. Probably sometime in May, I don't know.
- [01:37]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But yeah. We need help, though.
- [01:40]
Jessica Defino
We need help. If anyone is an event producer in New York and wants to help us put on a live podcast, let us know. We'd love to hear from you.
- [01:49]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Slash, party. Of course.
- [01:51]
Jessica Defino
Party. Yes. Because.
- [01:53]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. Do you want to make an announcement?
- [01:55]
Jessica Defino
I'm going to make an announcement. I won't say the name, but I'm changing the name of my newsletter again for a surprise because I made everything. No, but I'm trying to think of it like books, you know?
- [02:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. It's a new chapter.
- [02:08]
Jessica Defino
The name represents years of my work. I'm in a new era.
- [02:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I think that's very appropriate. You're entering a new era. You're. It's a different. It's a different you coming to the page. It's the same. You know, you started as the unpublishable because you were unpublishable. And then the newsletter proved very much otherwise. Your whole career, you became too publishable and it no longer fit you anymore.
- [02:30]
Jessica Defino
For my own good.
- [02:31]
Emily Kirkpatrick
So you've evolved yet again. And I think that's fine.
- [02:33]
Jessica Defino
And actually, the name that I. I'm choosing, that I'll be doing next month, is the name that I really wanted to rename my newsletter last year. And everyone in my life talked me out of it. And I was like.
- [02:44]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And I talked you into it.
- [02:45]
Jessica Defino
You talked me into it. I just needed to talk to Emily. That's all I am.
- [02:49]
Emily Kirkpatrick
If you hate her new name, I'm the person to blame. Come right to me and leave it in my comment section because I am encouraging this more than anyone. It is very in line with me and my aesthetics. So get used to it and I will be. I heart Mess forever because I don't have any other ideas.
- [03:05]
Jessica Defino
It's perfect. It's perfect for you.
- [03:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
The real question is, does the podcast name change?
- [03:09]
Jessica Defino
Oh, I didn't even think about that.
- [03:11]
Emily Kirkpatrick
No, it doesn't matter.
- [03:12]
Jessica Defino
It doesn't need to.
- [03:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
No. The other thing I would like to bring up is just an addendum to my complaints about the New York Times from. Was that the last podcast? I don't even know.
- [03:23]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, I think it was like, I'd.
- [03:24]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Just like to point out that they've released another article on another trend that I've been highlighting for months, and I just like them to chill. Just hire me like, I am. I am for sale. You know what I mean? Like, these ideas you can purchase.
- [03:37]
Jessica Defino
Also, a trend you've talked about on the podcast. You've not only written about it, you've like, great point. You've chatted at length about this.
- [03:44]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I didn't even think about that. It was bloomers. I don't know if I just said that out loud or not, but it was an article about bloomers. And you guys know that I've been talking about bloomers for a decade, so for a while. Just seems a little suspicious. And just one more thing I would like to add is that. Remember. Do you guys remember when I was talking about anti cleavage? Because it happened.
- [04:03]
Jessica Defino
I do. It really happened.
- [04:04]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It really happened. In a spectacular fashion. Um, you can see it on my newsletter. You can just Google Irina Shayk crazy bra and it'll probably come up. But Irina Shayk, the Victoria's Secret model, wore a Duran Lantank. I'm not sure how to say his name. Um, a bra. It kind of looks like a apostrophe. I guess I would say like the. The boob coming out and up decidedly. Yeah, like kind of like a dwarf shoe or something.
- [04:30]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [04:31]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I don't know why I think of it as, like, a 7 dwarf shoe, but that's kind of like a Disney cartoon shoe is kind of what it looks like to me. Yeah, Just very interesting. And that designer is the same guy I yelled at last week in my newsletter because he put a male model in prosthetic breasts as a quote unquote joke. And I did not find it amusing for many reasons that you can read about in my newsletter. But anyway, should I get into some more trends that the New York Times can write about in three months from now? Yes, I have some ideas for them they might be interested in.
- [05:02]
Jessica Defino
You've heard it here first, folks.
- [05:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, tune in, guys. Something I'd like to point out is something that's going on with, like, wired garments. I don't even really know how to, like, put a name to what I'm witnessing because it's kind of like magical in a way for some reason. What it makes me think about is, you know, in Harry Potter, when they have those, like, floating candles, there's something about that quality that I'm finding in this wired clothing. Cause it's basically clothing that looks like it's floating off the body or like it's been caught in a gust of wind or like an invisible hand is like lifting it up or something.
- [05:38]
Jessica Defino
I think it was last year's awards season. There were a couple of actresses who had those, like, giant straps.
- [05:44]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, Emily Blunt and Schiaparelli. That people really panned this dress. But because it had like bedazzled trompe l'oeil underwear on top of the gown was just another feature that people didn't care for. But the straps also levitated about 2 inches off her shoulders. And people were very cute. Yeah.
- [06:02]
Jessica Defino
Levitating.
- [06:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Levitating, I guess, is the theme. Um, so I first started thinking about this last year at the 2024 LACMA Arden Film Gala. Troye Sivan wore this Prada, just like a regular men's button down shirt. But then it was kind of like all wrinkled at the bottom and, like lifted up so it exposed his midriff. And yeah, it genuinely looked like someone's hand had, like, come and like, gathered the bottom of it. And I just thought that was so interesting. And I. And at the time I was like, well, if you're gonna do that, it's like cool. Like, do it more extreme. Like kind of push it to the max a little more. And then we see Hunter Schaeffer, also in Prada, at the Independent Spirit Awards with wired kind of straps coming off her sundress. So it's like, kind of floating through the air behind her almost.
- [06:47]
Jessica Defino
It's the invisible hand of the market creating a new trend.
- [06:49]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes, creating a new trend. Absolutely. It's the fashion industry telling you to buy, taking money out of your wallet. We saw Raffi Cassidy at the Oscars in a custom Loewe dress that, again, was kind of knotted at the shoulder and had, like, a wired piece of fabric coming up and out off the body. At the after party for that event, we had Julia Fox in Daria Findicolu at Elton John's Oscars afterparty. And that one was the extremeness, of course. Julia provided me with the intensity that I was asking for with Troy, where it truly looked like she had just walked through a twister. Like, every part of the garments were, like, swirled and blown up and blown away. And I also thought, like, you know, Julia obviously loves to do nudity on a red carpet, and I did think it was, like, a more interesting way to kind of do nudity. And it plays with attention. I talk about a lot on here and in my newsletter about, like, wardrobe malfunctions and, like, people being inherently interested in seeing things they feel they're not supposed to be seeing. And also the press's profound interest in covering anything going wrong with a celebrity in public that's, like, embarrassing or what they perceive to be as embarrassing. And so it's, like, interesting to embrace that in the garment itself and, like, accentuate it. And then also at the Oscars, we see a whole lot of Louis Vuitton dresses that are not. Not my cup of tea, but they have a lot of wiring going on that I'm very interested in. Kind of like, what. I don't know, like both what Nicolas Gasguier is the creative director of Louis Vuitton, what his inspiration behind is, and what he's modeling it after, because it's so. Even when I don't like Ghesgier, he does. He is very future thinking. He is very contemporary and modern in this way that I do feel like.
- [08:35]
Jessica Defino
That'S what I associate him with, knowing very little, I think futuristic, right?
- [08:40]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Especially his work at Balenciaga was like the definition. I mean, that was a. An all time great career run, you know, like, that is foundational to good fashion. But, yeah, I think he's. He's very forward thinking, and I can't help but be intrigued by what he's intrigued by, even when I'm like, I don't understand what you're doing. But at the Oscars, he dressed Stacy Martin, who's A French actress in distress. I've just been calling like a four leaf clover skirt because the shape of the skirt itself is kind of. It looks like a Van Cleef and Arpels, those. Those logo bracelets that everyone's wearing right now.
- [09:13]
Jessica Defino
Okay.
- [09:14]
Ina
Yeah.
- [09:14]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's very harshly structured. Like there is no give to it. And he also dressed the. I learned recently I'm saying this wrong. I say haim, and I know that's wrong. It's haim. I don't know. The sisters, the band, I think.
- [09:29]
Jessica Defino
I don't know if we're both bad at it, but I kind of feel like we're just bad at pronunciation.
- [09:35]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I literally don't say any names out loud ever. I am a person who lives on the Internet.
- [09:39]
Jessica Defino
It's cause we read too much. It's cause we're intellectual Y.
- [09:42]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And then people get mad at me when I say the names out loud. I'm like, that's literally the first time I've ever said it. So I don't. And I'm saying a lot of names every day on things like this. But anyway, the two of those sisters. Which one's unclear. I'm so sorry. They. They had skirts that had the same sort of like thick structured wire hem. It was a little more subtle and forgiving on their looks, but still very much present. And then I remembered that Ghasquier also did this to Emma Stone last year at the SAG Awards. She wore this orange sherbert, like 80s prom dress that was like universally just panned on the Internet. People were like mocking this thing left and right, but it had that same super thick wired hem. And. Yeah. And then even we. The Givenchy Fall 2025 Runway show just came out. It was the first Givenchy show designed by Sarah Burden, who was the former creative director of Alexander McQueen. And when McQueen was alive, she was very much his right hand gal. And we also saw some wired garments there. And I don't know, I've just been thinking. It's very interesting. Like I said, there's something kind of magical to it. Almost kind of an extension of the trompe l'oeil trend we've seen playing out for a few years.
- [10:56]
Jessica Defino
To me, it looks like, like a bed with a bed skirt came to life in the Beauty and the Beast world.
- [11:04]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That's a fantastic way. That is actually really. It's, you know those wool blankets that have like the silk edge to it. Yes, it's very. That come to life, I think, but with a wire with like a Heating pad installed in it or something. Yeah. And there's something magical to it. There's something trompe l'oeil to it. I also think. I don't know, I was thinking about how it's interesting to create this static garment that looks like it's in motion, like eternally in motion. Especially at a time when like, like video is so supreme. You know what I mean? Like, our social media's favorite video, like, we're all kind of like, media certainly pivots to video and wants to prioritize that over a still image.
- [11:46]
Jessica Defino
It's the screenshot dress.
- [11:47]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's the screenshot dress. Totally. It's. Yeah, it's the casually crossing the street. This actually just made me think of my parents are visiting right now and we were walking somewhere and as we were crossing the street, this couple, like, the guy stopped in the middle of the street to have his photo taken. And my sister was like, why are they doing that? I was like, cause it's like a candid paparazzi shot. Like he's getting caught in action. And I do think maybe there's something of that to this garment as well. Like, you're always kind of being caught in motion and it kind of gives a dynamism to maybe an otherwise super simple outfit or something that's not quite as interesting. It adds something and a conversation piece as well. And then also, of course, I'm always trying to, like, abstract it to something larger and I wonder if there's something there. Especially with like, the Julia Fox's kind of twister garment. I'm like, are we, like, having a weird conversation about climate change?
- [12:35]
Jessica Defino
Yes.
- [12:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And, like, the effects it's going to have on, like, rocking our or otherwise sedate world. I don't know.
- [12:42]
Jessica Defino
Well, and reading that note that you had put in the doc about that, I immediately thought of a lot of, like, weather inspired makeup trends that have been happening lately, like sunburn blush or cold girl makeup.
- [12:55]
Emily Kirkpatrick
We're certainly about to get sunburned and very cold.
- [12:58]
Jessica Defino
But yeah, I wrote about it in my Ask Ugly column a couple months ago. But it's like a lot of these weather adjacent beauty trends, like, explicitly promote these products as replacements for, like, actual embodied experiences. And, like, offer like, a controlled application of like, what is in nature an uncontrollable thing.
- [13:19]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Totally. That's very interesting. And also it just made me think of all the planes that I've been down because it's too windy. And so you're creating this controlled version of this uncontrollable kind of scary thing that makes it more palatable to people almost.
- [13:32]
Jessica Defino
Yes.
- [13:33]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That's very interesting.
- [13:34]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. I think the climate change note is a good one.
- [13:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Note it. New York Times include it in three months. Yeah, in three months, we'll see.
- [13:44]
Jessica Defino
Check the style section.
- [13:46]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Check back with me.
- [13:48]
Jessica Defino
Okay. Speaking of mainstream media, please. My first little rant that I want to go on today is about Allure, the beauty magazine joining Substack.
- [13:59]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Oh, yeah.
- [14:00]
Jessica Defino
So they've launched a substack called the Beauty Chat, and I guess they sort of, like, share a lot of the stories that they're writing on allure.com with maybe, like, a little bit more commentary or deeper interviews or whatever, and just kind of, like, push you to go to the allure.com content. And I don't. I'm having kind of a weird reaction to it. Like, there's a lot of brands that are popping up on Substack lately, a lot of brands, and they're starting, like, these more casual newsletter. Because, of course, all of these brands already have massive newsletters.
- [14:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [14:32]
Jessica Defino
But they're probably getting, like, funneled into people's promotion tabs in Gmail.
- [14:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And I assume people aren't opening them.
- [14:39]
Jessica Defino
No, because there's usually nothing, like, worth opening for that valuable in them. Yeah. And, like, I don't want to be weird and grumpy about, like, gatekeeping or whatever, but it does seem, like, particularly startling to me to see mainstream media brands infiltrate this space when, like, their low, low, low, low rates, their freelancer policies, and, like, their sort of compromised relationships with advertisers and reliance on affiliate links are the reasons journalists have had to, like, mass migrate to independent media in the first place.
- [15:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
They literally don't pay us.
- [15:17]
Jessica Defino
And then to come into, like, an independent media zone and be like, oh, we want this audience, too, when it's like, you forced us here, and now you want to eat up the audience.
- [15:29]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That, like, now you want to monopolize it as well. Yeah.
- [15:32]
Jessica Defino
Like, part of the reason, and, you know, I'll say it, part of the reason I had to start my newsletter five years ago is because I was freelancing for Allure and other places. And I checked my last invoice for them, and it was $350 for a piece that was over 2,000 words and took me weeks to research, write, edit. It was an exclusive for Allure. Speak on it from a brand. It was, like, a big news piece. And it's like, who can afford to get $350 for, like, two weeks of work.
- [16:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And that is a very. I cannot emphasize this enough. A very standard rate for that level of work.
- [16:08]
Jessica Defino
It's so common. It's so common.
- [16:10]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I think someone recently credited me as a writer for Vogue, and I wrote on my Instagram stories. I was like, yeah, I wrote for Vogue one time because they paid me $250 for like a thousand word. And an interview is not just an interview. You know what I mean? Like, that is a conversation you have with someone that is transcription, that is editing, and then that is writing and then rewriting, often because you go through another round. And for all of that to be so worthless to them, for our content to be so worthless, and then that you have to turn to something. You have to create your own audience. You have to create your other means of making ends meet. And for them to then come into that space and be like, no, yeah.
- [16:46]
Jessica Defino
Encroach on, like, what journalists independently have been able to build for themselves because they've been kept out of this larger media ecosystem. It's really rubbing me the wrong way.
- [16:58]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Totally. Well, because I also think Substack, like, the reason it's so successful, the reason there's such an audience you want to poach there, is because of all the writers you won't pay appropriate amounts to write the critical pieces that you won't publish. Like, what's the disconnect? What's unclear? You could have that on your website.
- [17:14]
Jessica Defino
Yes.
- [17:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You could have all of the Substack content on your website. You could have the followers, you could have the audience, but you're. You just refuse to pay for it. So you want to come in and intervene.
- [17:24]
Jessica Defino
And. And the. The Allure newsletter editor did do an interview about this, about being on Substack, and they, like, noted that they wouldn't be opposed to having, like, advertisers sponsor their substack. Of course they would, future. And I'm just like, what? It.
- [17:40]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Of course they wouldn't.
- [17:42]
Jessica Defino
I did have to laugh, though, because Ochuko, who writes, as Sinan, reported on the Allure beauty chat joining Substack, and she said it was like Jessica Defino's don't buy lists without a strong point of view. So I'm. Even though I'm void, I'm cackling over here. I think that's fine.
- [18:00]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I mean, my always kind of controversial opinion is I just don't believe in brands or celebrities being on most platforms where most people are. I just, I think that if, again, if you have an entire website with like, 3 million monthly visitors, if you can afford to purchase a billboard and put your ideas on it. Why do you need to come into these spaces of, excuse me, I have to let my dog out.
- [18:23]
Jessica Defino
Fran.
- [18:25]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, I just feel, why do you have to come to this space of, like, I don't know, you have it all.
- [18:30]
Jessica Defino
You have it all. I would love to have what you have.
- [18:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. You have every opportunity, you have every means, you have every resource or, you know, I also think about celebrities coming, coming onto Substack. It's like, you are so famous. If you want to write an article and get it published as a New York Times op ed tomorrow, done. You know, and I don't know, you have millions of Instagram followers. You could write it there. I don't know. I just find it strange. I. I felt the same way a little bit about TikTok. I also just don't like when brands get involved with Internet business. It's like, I. You suck the fun out of the room. To me, it's like a brand participating in a TikTok trend. It's like, well, now the TikTok trend's dead and I don't like it anymore. You know, like, there's nothing fun about, to me about the corporatization of these spaces that are made so great by, like, real people and real personalities and real points of view and senses of humor.
- [19:17]
Jessica Defino
And that was like another point that was brought up. I'll link to the interview with the Allure substack editor. It was in Embedded and she noted, she was like, I know when brands come to a platform, it usually, like, signals to the death of the platform. And that's not what we're trying to.
- [19:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Do here, but it's what you do.
- [19:34]
Jessica Defino
And it's so hard because again, this is like one individual editor who had an idea, wants to do substack, and it's like, hard to separate. Like, this editor is like, probably wonderful writing and injecting some personality into a. A piece that she probably is not able to do in the same way on, like, Allure proper. But at the same time, it's like, it is. The brand is the major media corporation owned by Conde Nast. Allure on Substack.
- [20:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. And let's talk about Conde Nast, like, trying to union bust. Like, does this not feel like kind of another weird extension of that?
- [20:11]
Jessica Defino
No, exactly.
- [20:12]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I don't know. I find it distasteful. Yeah, likely.
- [20:16]
Jessica Defino
Me too.
- [20:17]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But they're going to keep coming. I mean, this is just the beginning. I mean, this is the tip of the Iceberg. I assume Doritos is going to have a newsletter next week. You know, everybody's going to start Chippy.
- [20:25]
Jessica Defino
Oh, my God. If Chippy.
- [20:26]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Oh, okay. If Chippy. Now I'm in again. Now I'm interested. Yeah. Chippy is literally the only one I want to hear from. And everybody else can shut up. That I will make the exception for, But I don't know. And I just think it's going to. Likewise, I think it's going to exacerbate the problems we're already having, like regular writers are already having with Substack, where they're, like, kind of putting their money in interesting places, I guess I would say, or backing kind of the wrong things, to my mind. And I feel like the more that brands come in, the more advertisers are going to come in with those brands. You know, more celebrities are going to come in, and Substack is going to kind of pivot to encouraging those people who make them the most money, obviously, and bring the most eyes to the platform.
- [21:13]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [21:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And that's going to make it a lot worse for every other regular writer on the platform.
- [21:19]
Jessica Defino
I agree. It's not. It's not looking great.
- [21:23]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. Well, something else that's not looking great is that we have a real pleaser situation on the red carpet, and I would. I would like celebrities to give it a rest. And by pleaser, I am talking about the platform heels typically worn by strippers.
- [21:40]
Jessica Defino
Mm. I'm familiar.
- [21:41]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Well, let me explain for those who are not familiar, pleaser platforms are. They have a big platform underneath the ball of the foot, and usually kind of 6 inches is around where it starts, normally heel, and then it can kind of go up from there. But obviously, the platform makes them more wearable, but adds a ton of height. You've definitely. If you've ever seen a woman in a strip club, you've seen this shoe.
- [22:04]
Jessica Defino
Also, like, featured in Anora.
- [22:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Oh, yeah, sure. Featured in Anora. That's a great example. Yeah. So this is now rampant footwear on the record. Like, it has become the new Louboutin pump, I would say. Like, it has very much replaced kind of any classical stiletto that we used to see on the red carpet. I've been complaining about Kim Kardashian doing this for a million years. She's been doing it for a million years. It's kind of the logical evolution of. Well, it's where Kanye stole the idea for his own Yeezy Lucite mules. Right. He just did one that was not as Platform. But that's very much where the idea came from. And so Kim wore those for forever. And then I kind of see this as the obvious next evolution of that. That piece of footwear for her. And also, I mean, my. My least favorite time that she ever did it was with the Marilyn Monroe dress. She wore a pair of Lucite pleaser pumps with Marilyn's dress to the Met Gala. And she also did it last year, I believe. Oh, when she wore that Margiela corset. She wore the same.
- [23:10]
Jessica Defino
Okay, this is completely unrelated, but I have to say it.
- [23:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [23:14]
Jessica Defino
I have been working on this other piece that's, like, sort of unrelated. Whatever. But I was doing research, like, comparing, like, political moments to, like, big fashion red carpet moments. And the night that Kim wore that Marilyn Monroe dress and, like, was like, I lost £27 to fit into. This was the day the Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe v. Wade was leaked.
- [23:35]
Emily Kirkpatrick
No.
- [23:35]
Jessica Defino
And I just think that, like, that's so funny. The entrance of Ozempic into, like, public consciousness.
- [23:41]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes.
- [23:42]
Jessica Defino
And the overturning of row being on the same night is, like, so wild in high school.
- [23:49]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Some sort of cosmic synergy.
- [23:53]
Jessica Defino
Anyway. Pleasers.
- [23:54]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Funny. Yeah. I don't know. Kim's been doing this for forever. And then I just started noticing that it's not just her anymore who's doing it. It's kind of all celebrities. I was thinking about this specifically at the Grammys because basically Sabrina Carpenter wore this beautiful Loewe dress custom, and at one point, her team, like, lifted up her skirt to help her walk down the red carpet, and it revealed, like, the. The most massive baby blue mule. Platform mules I've ever seen in my life. Yes. Just, like, astronomically high, like, comically high for such a small woman. And I was like, oh, they're, like, trying to. They're trying to make her taller. And I was like, that's also insane to me from a branding perspective.
- [24:37]
Jessica Defino
Like, I was just short and sweet.
- [24:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Short and sweet.
- [24:40]
Jessica Defino
You gotta lean into just being.
- [24:41]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Lean into being tiny. Yes. I think I. I don't know if I commented this. I've responded to somebody's comment about this because they were. They were saying likewise, like, is that her brand not being quite small? And I was like, yeah. And think about all the opportunities she's missing out on. On the red carpet to look insanely small next to large celebrities. Yes. And that would be such a funny, memeable, like, shareable moment. And they're missing out because they want her to be tall, look taller, I again, Kim wore another pair. She's always wearing a pair, but she wore another pair with a custom Balenciaga gown to the SNL50 event. And Doja Cat also wore a gold pair with a custom balman gown at the Vanity Fair Oscars after party. And I think seeing it with custom, these three custom gowns also kind of got my wheels turning a bit more because again they're custom. Yeah, you can, they can, they can be perfectly fitted, you can make them to measure. You don't have to wear these jumbo high heeled. So it is an aesthetic choice that people are making and it's all seemingly to, to my eye with the goal of being 511 like that is they want to look 511 on a red carpet. And I was thinking about why.
- [25:49]
Jessica Defino
Every woman's dream, every man's nightmare.
- [25:51]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes, exactly. Very, very terrifying. But I don't know, I was thinking about why. And part of it is obviously like on the Runway that has always been the standard height. Like that is the go to height for a model is usually 5 9, 5 11. Ideally of course Kate Moss really changed that for everybody forever. But it's still very much kind of the standard, you know, same with being sample size or the size 0 double 0. And so my suspicion of why the start? Well first of all we, as we've talked about here many times before, Hollywood is always stealing from the adult entertainment industry. It is where they get all of their best fashion ideas. So pleasers are very logical choice. That is the footwear that they're seeing there. So of course that would be adopted. But then my theory of why it really started gaining popularity is this, this huge uptick we've, we've seen in the past like decade I guess of celebrities wearing archival designer Runway pieces because those are pieces that are originally worn by models who are 511 and a size 0. And they cannot be altered that much. Like there's a certain amount of altering you can do to them that's like temporary. But you really can't change it too from the original garment because it is kind of historical. Often it is archival. So first we get Ozempic, which obviously helps a whole new array of people fit into these archival garments. They wouldn't have been able to fit in otherwise because they have a non model body, whatever that means. And now the pleasers are helping them achieve the height of those models so that they don't have to alter the length of the garments. And it, it all looks correctly in proportion as it would have looked on the Runway.
- [27:31]
Ina
Yeah.
- [27:32]
Jessica Defino
Oh, wow.
- [27:33]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And I also think that after, you know, years of kind of doing this to adapt to the item of clothing itself, I think that celebrities started to realize in images that they looked thinner than they already are because they look taller, which is kind of a classic illusion.
- [27:52]
Jessica Defino
Classic optical illusion.
- [27:54]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, Classic optical illusion.
- [27:55]
Jessica Defino
What not to wear tip.
- [27:57]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Um, and so I think that. Yeah, I think it's all in the pursuit of looking even tinier and even smaller. And they're just putting. I mean, in my newsletter, I often call them like, booster seats or like, stilts. I do think stilts would honestly be a more interesting and compelling choice of footwear than anything going on here. My main complaint, I'm, you know, pleasers, fine. Wear them if you want to wear them. But, like, my main complaint is they don't even pick the most interesting pleasers. Pleasers make so such a wide array of cool shoes, and they're always wearing the same clear, Lucite ones because they want it to be, like, invisible, essentially. They want to be, like nothing. Like, they aren't faking 6 to 8 inches of their height.
- [28:38]
Jessica Defino
It's very pedestal.
- [28:40]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes, that too.
- [28:41]
Jessica Defino
Totally pedestal.
- [28:43]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes. They are literally putting themselves on a pedestal. Totally.
- [28:46]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [28:47]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. And I don't know, I think it's a very strange and interesting trend, and it is kind of almost the female version of the leg breaking surgery that men are doing now. And I have also, I've always said about Kim, if she thought she could get away with that surgery, she'd have done it already. Like, she hates being short. You can tell that she hates being short.
- [29:08]
Jessica Defino
Yes.
- [29:08]
Emily Kirkpatrick
As it ruins the line. She can't wear all this archival stuff that's meant for, like, a 5'Eleven woman. Cause she's. Whatever, 5'Two yeah.
- [29:16]
Jessica Defino
No, that makes a lot of sense.
- [29:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Anyway, I would like, at the very least, for famous people to look beyond the clear, loose sight and just see what other opportunities are out there. And other, you know, like, what happened. Remember those. Those, like, disco shoes and from the 70s that people always used to, like, draw on cartoons with, like, goldfish in them or something. Like, we could be doing a lot more. We could be doing a lot more. And thematically, a lot more. Like, incorporate the theme of the dress into the shoe. I don't know. It's like, let's have a little more creativity, folks.
- [29:47]
Jessica Defino
It's gonna happen. I feel like you're, you know, the red carpet whisperer.
- [29:52]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Or just wear normal shoes. Again, it's okay to be short. That's. I Would like to emphasize this.
- [29:57]
Jessica Defino
You'd be five, two.
- [29:58]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Really? Okay. And I know tall privilege like this, that's a six, two woman saying that to you, but it really is okay to be short. It's not a big deal. You're gonna look fine in the photo. They'll make the dress to your height. Like, you can wear a regular shoe. You could wear a flat shoe even. Honestly, it'll be okay.
- [30:12]
Jessica Defino
That's a beautiful little pep talk.
- [30:14]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Thank you. Pop a sneaker on. It'll be okay, girls.
- [30:19]
Jessica Defino
Well, I want to talk about Jacques Mousse and Louis Vuitton.
- [30:23]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Gorgeous French accent.
- [30:25]
Jessica Defino
Thank you. Thank you. Both announced over the past month that they are launching Beauty Lines naturally. So Jacques Mousse is like a high end French fashion label. Obviously, they're launching in partnership with L'Oreal.
- [30:41]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Okay.
- [30:42]
Jessica Defino
And then Louis Vuitton hired Pat McGrath as creative director.
- [30:46]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I find that very interesting.
- [30:48]
Jessica Defino
I know. So they've already said they're going to release 55 lipsticks, which just makes me think of what. I think you should leave. Have you seen? Yeah, I think like 55 lipsticks.
- [30:59]
Emily Kirkpatrick
55.
- [31:00]
Jessica Defino
Anyway, they said they're going to release 55 lipsticks, 10 lip balms, and eight eye palettes. And I mean, Pat McGrath Labs has all of those products. So I'm like, very curious to see how these will be different than what she puts out on her own.
- [31:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And do you know, is. Is Pat McGrath going to stay on at her own brand simultaneously or she like kind of leaving it in the hands of someone else while she creative directs?
- [31:27]
Jessica Defino
That's a good question. I don't know.
- [31:30]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Curious how that works.
- [31:31]
Jessica Defino
I'll put in the show notes. But it seems weird to leave your own brand when you are a Pat McGrath, still like working and so involved.
- [31:41]
Emily Kirkpatrick
In the industry and still so popular, I imagine. Also, that seems like a. For, like a debut beauty offering that seems quite large. But maybe that's just because of the scale of the brand itself. But I'm thinking about like Hermes or Dries Van Noten, who kind of recently moved in the beauty space. And I feel like their initial offerings were very limited.
- [31:59]
Jessica Defino
Very limited. I mean, maybe it's because it is Pat McGrath.
- [32:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, I don't. And they just know that there's the hype around her to. To push the product farther than maybe the brand could do by itself.
- [32:10]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've been wanting to write a longer piece about lines like this for a long time. But I mean, obviously, like, this is high fashion's. Way of attracting a typically fast fashion customer. Total like beauty lines are a lower price point, low barrier to entry.
- [32:28]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. It's how you create a customer.
- [32:31]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. Designer beauty has always been that like someone who can't buy a $5,000 bag can buy a $50 lipstick.
- [32:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's the same way with like sunglasses or keychains. Any sort of like kind of small luxury good that is within the range of, you know, quote unquote reasonable. I mean it's not reasonable, but you know what I mean.
- [32:48]
Jessica Defino
Totally. But I think beauty is like specifically so much closer to the problems we generally associate with fast fashion. And like, I think these brands are bringing in all the problems of fast fashion through the beauty products, which I, I always say, like all beauty is fast beauty.
- [33:09]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [33:09]
Jessica Defino
And it's like this is creating an inroad to the fast fashion customer who's going to keep buying like tube after tube after tube of lip gloss. The same way like an H and M customer buys a mini dress after mini dress after mini dress when it disintegrates. Yeah. I just feel like this function of beauty, the way that it operates on a fast fashion scale, even when it's luxury beauty has been really overlooked and like under investigated compared to how we think about, think pieces about fast fashion. So like to put it in context, the core issues with fast fashion are like constant manufacturing of products that don't last either physically because of quality or aesthetically because of trend cycle.
- [33:52]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [33:53]
Jessica Defino
Plastic pollution. Since most fast fashion is made out of fossil fuel derived materials like polyester. And three, like low wages and horrible labor conditions for the workers who produce the pieces. And so when you think about it in these terms, it like the entire beauty industry can be categorized as fast beauty because like no product can or will last. Like even sustainable products, they're meant to last for like months to a year because of shelf life. And it means you have to repurchase them over and over and over again. Almost all products, even the sustainable ones, use fossil fuel byproducts in some way, whether it's in the products themselves or in the packaging. And then there are so many like human rights violations and like labor issues with beauty products like the production of palm oil, which is in over 70% of beauty products, is linked to human trafficking, child labor, slavery, worker abuse. Vanilla, the production of vanilla, which is huge in fragrance and like lip glosses and stuff is associated with child labor and like illegal wages. Mica famously often manufactured by child laborers too.
- [35:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Sure. Whatever the hell glitter is, you know Exactly. Nothing good is happening there. I think we can.
- [35:08]
Jessica Defino
No. So it's like all of these issues that we are constantly, like, deliberating with fast fashion apply to beauty even in its most luxury form.
- [35:20]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's funny though, when you were reading that description of, like, what makes fast fashion, I was thinking, like, well, that's all fashion. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. So in a way, like, these big brands leaning into the fast fashion of beauty, it's kind of just laying bare with what their business model already is, which is fast fashion. Like, they are promoting trends that put things out of thinking out of commission, you know, like, their products don't last. They are pretty cheaply made. Especially when we compare to the past how luxury brands things were made. You know, they. Absolutely. Child labor is involved in some of the production of these things. Like bad practices. I don't know. It's very interesting. And even just like the speed of runways, the speed of collections that come out, it's constantly replacing itself to the point that we see. I mean, what we're seeing right now, which is this creative director, musical chairs again. Because everybody gets so burned out so fast and they. And fashion just has to swap them around to new houses. It's always the same, like, group of like 20 dudes. 20 white dudes.
- [36:17]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [36:17]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Who just get moved to a new house because they're, like, tired of working at the one they're working at. The pace they're working at.
- [36:23]
Jessica Defino
It's so true. Because now that you say that, I'm like, what is the differentiating factor beyond the name and logo? Because there are just like, shitty materials.
- [36:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [36:32]
Jessica Defino
There are reports every day about the horrible labor conditions of luxury brands.
- [36:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I mean, you're talking about.
- [36:37]
Jessica Defino
There is nothing.
- [36:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Jackamoose. Half of his clothing is made out of plastic. Yeah. Like some version of like, polyester is 9. I would say 90% of what he makes. And is that a high fashion brand still? Why? Because of the price point? Because of the name, because of who he is. Like, that seems to be about the only differentiating factor to me. But I don't know. I'm no, I'm no expert.
- [36:59]
Jessica Defino
No, I think you're totally right. I think that just like, everything is fast now.
- [37:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right.
- [37:04]
Jessica Defino
Everything's too fast.
- [37:05]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And I think that also big brands saw what fast fashion is doing and, like, wanted a piece of it, you know?
- [37:11]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [37:12]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And so they wanted to match them by, like, matching the pace of production and the pace of like, quote, unquote creativity.
- [37:17]
Jessica Defino
The Target diffusion line was probably like, oh, My God. To luxury. Because like these brands now are beholden to that kind of like splashy thing and quick production cycle. I don't know.
- [37:30]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes, or I remember maybe like a decade ago there was this big conversation in fashion about the See Now, Buy now collections.
- [37:38]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [37:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And everybody wanted to be See now, Buy now and that moda operandi. The whole basis, the whole premise of that website was a See now, Buy Now. Like right, you get to be the, you know, like a VIP customer and order straight off the Runway. But really it's just a way, it's a more immediate way to get you spending money and involved to promote the next collection so they can pay for the next thing to do this big Runway spectacle that like cost them millions of dollars and doesn't actually pay off.
- [38:03]
Jessica Defino
It's all a grift.
- [38:04]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's all. I mean, it's all a grift. The whole world's a grift.
- [38:07]
Jessica Defino
Well, and then like thinking of designer beauty in the fast beauty context. I read this really fun piece from Emelia Petrarca this week. She writes Shop Rat.
- [38:19]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Wonderful newsletter. Everyone should read.
- [38:21]
Jessica Defino
Great newsletter. And she wrote about the rise of the. She calls it the restaurant, which is like in store restaurants and coff coffee shops that all these brands are doing. So there's like kith treats, Ralph Lauren Polo Bar, Ralph's Coffee, the Armani Restaurant, now Cafe Louis Vuitton.
- [38:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And Prada is about. Well, Prada's trying to buy. What is that Lur Bar. I think something like that.
- [38:44]
Jessica Defino
I don't know where. I know I read it in Feed.
- [38:45]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Me, but it's right beneath their store. And so they're trying to acquire it and turn it into a. Some sort of Prada cafe to do a similar. Because I believe Prada also has a cafe in Milan or somewhere in Italy that is very Wes Anderson coded. And it's very Instagramable because of that. And they get a lot of free social media coverage from that. So I think they're trying to do something similar in New York for influencers.
- [39:06]
Jessica Defino
It makes so much sense. Yeah. I mean, Emelia wrote like, brands are dying to get you into their stores, but everything inside is too expensive for anyone to buy. And so it's like, yeah, from adopting the fast fashion model for their high fashion lines and to bringing in fast beauty through these designer beauties and then from it having these like cafes and restaurants, bringing in the fast food, it's like these high, supposedly high end brands are just like dying to sell cheap shit to poor people.
- [39:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. Because it. Regardless, it's brand loyalty, you know, like, even if you're buying a Prada branded coffee, like, it's still a product. Branded coffee. You know what I mean? Like, you're still gonna post the logo on your Instagram and it's made a customer out of you and it's made you perhaps more amenable to Prada as an entity and you might be more interested, like, it's all just gateway drugs into the main. The main spend. Right. And I. I don't know, I was also just thinking, like, you know, we're talking about how you can't really differentiate high fashion from fast fashion. It's like, that's an even funnier thing when it comes to beauty because it's literally the exact same materials. I remember people having that conversation too, and like, Kylie Jenner came out with her lip kits and they're like, so this is colourpop.
- [40:18]
Jessica Defino
Yep. Oh, my God. I worked with Kylie Jenner at the time of those allegations, and it was wild.
- [40:24]
Emily Kirkpatrick
This is a rebranded colourpop that you can buy for a third of the price. The exact same thing with no weight. No. Sold out. I just think it's. It's all. It's marketing, you know, everything's marketing.
- [40:36]
Jessica Defino
Marketing magic.
- [40:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Let's. Let's talk about some more marketing magic that's happening out there this week. Kim Kardashian is on her Magna Goble. Shit. Oh, she's girl bossing into the sun.
- [40:49]
Jessica Defino
Oh.
- [40:51]
Emily Kirkpatrick
For those who haven't seen the dumbest magazine cover I've seen in a hot minute, or who didn't tune in for my first ever substack live stream, I missed it with a former guest on this podcast, Alyssa Vingen. We had a little chat about the new magazine cover for Perfect magazine. I don't know if you've heard of. Heard of them. Perfect is founded by Katie Grand. Katie grand is. Looms large in the fashion industry. She had Love magazine before this, which is probably most famous for the Love Advent calendar, which was like, a lot of hot ladies in underwear writhing around every day of December. And, man, I wrote about every single one of those videos for People magazine. You better believe it. Traffic, drivers, monster hits. Oh, I'm sure before that. Katie Graham is like a hugely influential stylist. She works a lot with Marc Jacobs. She's actually responsible for casting Kendall Jenner in her first ever Runway show for Marc Jacobs and kind of like putting her on the map. Similar, I would argue, similarly with the Hadids. She really promoted both Hadid sisters and kind of Introduced us to this new era of like influencer reality star models. It's very much Kady Grant's legacy. Anyway, her new Perfect magazine cover features Kim Kardashian, of course, posing alongside one of those Tesla robots again and many a cybertruck again. And this is all coming out, of course, post sighail.
- [42:19]
Jessica Defino
Right.
- [42:20]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Both full blown Nazi mask off.
- [42:23]
Jessica Defino
A very knowing alignment of yourself.
- [42:25]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, a very knowing alignment. Because, I mean, I was already talking about this. I think I talked about on the podcast the first time she did this on her Instagram account. Yeah, we talked about it even then. It was despicable and disgusting, obviously, but it's taken on a whole new resonance of just kind of cruel and heartless behavior. And I just think it's a very interesting branding choice from her perspective. I think it's interesting that Perfect Mag went ahead with this cover despite everything that's happened in the interim. Because my guess, just knowing how magazines and timelines for this type of stuff work is my guess is that when Kim posted those photos on her Instagram, which I believe was around the end of November, that would have been during the shoot, those were taken when that stuff was at her home for the shoot. So they had quite a lead time on this. And. And it also, I don't know, a lot of people are arguing this is not spawncon, this is not a paid for advertisement. But if anything, I would think that going ahead and publishing it proves that they are contractually obligated to publish it somehow. Because also, this isn't the only cover. There's about three or four covers for this issue.
- [43:41]
Jessica Defino
I did not realize that.
- [43:42]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Oh yeah. And none of the other covers feature anything from Tesla in them, only the singular cover features.
- [43:48]
Jessica Defino
That's so weird.
- [43:49]
Emily Kirkpatrick
The robot. So I don't know, it's very curious to me. As I said in the live stream, I will say if you do have to do kind of like a dystopian techno fascist vision of the future like this, choosing Stephen Klein as the photographer was the right choice. He's the guy for this. He really. That's his aesthetic. That's him to a T. He's a very good photographer and he really nailed that. Unfortunately, it's full of, you know, the products of a Nazi.
- [44:22]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. If not for that small problem.
- [44:25]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, the great small minor issue that we might have with it. And yeah, I also just think it's interesting. I mean, there's a lot of interesting aspects of this photo shoot, but one I was thinking about is kind of the public's Reaction to her ex husband Kanye West's embrace of Nazism versus her tacit endorsement of Nazism and how different it's been. Obviously, she's not wearing a swastika on a T shirt, which takes it to a very. A much more blunt place, I would say. And she's not, like, threatening Jewish people with Defcon 5 or whatever in your face. Sure. But it's certainly, I would say, explicit. It's not coded in any way. It's, like, pretty out there. And, you know, I've seen some backlash, obviously, but I think the type of backlash that the Kardashians enjoy. You know, Alyssa and I were talking about this a little bit, too, because it's like, you know, to talk about this cover, even to cover it in a negative way, is to still promote this cover exactly.
- [45:28]
Jessica Defino
Like, you know, everyone's gonna look it up. They're gonna click on the Perfect Mag link.
- [45:33]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And that's a very Kardashian point of view as well. Is like, all press is good press. The outrage is often more powerful than people who Stan. You know, like, your Stans can only get you so far, but the people who hate you will hate watch you for a million years. You know, that's why their TV show exists, is people hate watching it. And so this feels very similar to me, like, very cynical. But I imagine for Perfect Magazine, I've never heard anyone talk about Perfect Magazine the way I've heard them talk about this cover. Right. So ultimately, they're getting their money's worth.
- [46:08]
Jessica Defino
They're getting their money's worth.
- [46:09]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Horrible thing that they're promoting.
- [46:11]
Jessica Defino
It kind of reminds me of what Caroline Calloway is fond of saying about scandals, where she's like, it's best to have no scandals, but if you have one, you might as well have a million. And then it'll just, like, meld in people's minds, and no one will be able to remember exactly what you did wrong. They'll just be like this vague feeling. And I think that's what's happening with Kim. It's like, how. How many?
- [46:34]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right. You couldn't possibly keep track of them all or be outraged. Sustain your outrage.
- [46:38]
Jessica Defino
Does anyone remember when she was doing, like, blackfishing in her ads? Like, nobody talks about.
- [46:44]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, some of us remember, but some of us have an encyclopedic memory of every bad thing that that family's done.
- [46:50]
Jessica Defino
Like, yeah. It feels like even though this is, like, a very explicit endorsement of a man and his company who have, you know, expressed Nazi ideology.
- [47:02]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [47:03]
Jessica Defino
It's gonna just fade into the rest of it. Oblivion in the culture.
- [47:08]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Absolutely. And that's always been the Kardashians approach to it. And I think also when your whole identity, when your whole celebrity is foundationally based on a sex tape, it's also kind of like no one expects you to behave better. You know what I mean? Like, there is kind of no standard for your behavior. And so, like, doing stuff like this is just kind of par for the course of, like, being despicable and being kind of, like, money and power hungry, if by any means necessary. So while everyone is, like, gross, they're also kind of like, well on brand, you know? And so, like, does it ultimately hurt Kim? No. I mean, I think I've said it before on the pod, but I certainly say it a lot in life, which is like, my favorite thought experiment is, what could the Kardashians do to get canceled? Well and truly canceled? And it's literally nothing. I can't think of a single thing that couldn't be flipped into something. A TV show, a spinoff, some sort of a brand deal, something. And I think this is no exception. Like, Kanye is gonna get canceled outta society, and Kim's gonna keep on coasting along and rebranding and leveling up to whatever it is she wants to be. Which I also think is part of what this photo shoot is about, is her signifying the classism, the new echelon that she wishes to inhabit. Because for a lot of Kim's career, I mean, maybe people forget about this at this point, but a lot of Kim's career was about trying to be accepted as a real celebrity and then trying to be accepted as a real A list celebrity. And that's also part of what I think, again, I always couch this as, like, the relationship can be real, they can be in love. It can also be a strategic branding move that, like, is advantageous for all involved because it was certainly advantageous for Kanye. It's advantageous for Kim. But I think, you know, that partnership was also about being embraced by a listers in a. In a different way. Right.
- [48:58]
Jessica Defino
Like the Vogue cover.
- [49:00]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Like the Vogue cover. Exactly. Never would have happened without Kanye. Kanye opened the door to her, to all sorts of celebrities who refused to work with her. He literally, like, forced Kim through the door at all these big fashion houses who finally embraced her, and now she's like, the queen of all big fashion houses. And. Yeah. And she finally has achieved this A list dream of that she's always wanted, and now it's like, what's next. Because, you know, someone like that, you can't just. You're never satisfied. There is no upper limit. There is no success, like, formalized version of success that you would be satisfied with. And so for me, it seems like her next pivot is she wants to be accepted by this billionaire ruling class and wants to be seen as a part of it, because that is, to her mind, true success, true wealth, true fame in a more eternal, enduring way than maybe being, I don't know, Julia Roberts or something that's just beloved, you know, American Sweetheart or whatever.
- [49:55]
Jessica Defino
Completely. And I feel like she's also made some, like, entrepreneurial moves around the same time as this cover coming out. Like, I totally skims, just bought skin by Kim.
- [50:06]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That is the most insane news story. I don't know why we're even covering it. I will be honest with you. Like, I. Like I get from a business perspective why we're talking about, but it's just such a preposterous, like, yeah, she bought her own brand back from Cody because it was not doing well. It's doing very poorly, and she's not promoting it or investing any time or attention to it, and Cody's pissed, and so they sold it back to her at a huge loss.
- [50:29]
Jessica Defino
And, well, the thing that's, you know, curious to me is, like, skims is obviously super successful. It's a gigantic brand.
- [50:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. It's the one unicorn of the family, I would say.
- [50:41]
Jessica Defino
And, like, people are protesting Tesla in these major ways, and I really haven't heard anything about skims being, you know, through Kim being associated with this Tesla robot. Like, are people saying, oh, let's stop buying no skims?
- [50:57]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Like, no. I would argue there's been almost no pushback on this car. I mean, people, like, initially, I mean, Instagram comments in response to the image itself, maybe, but, like, no fallout in terms of, like, kind of us as consumers of her media, of her products, like, pushing back against what she stands for. Like, I mean, she. She very much came out as a Republican following the election, posting that, like, weird photo of Melania in the hat. And it's like, the most, like, also just, like, the most limp response. Like, if you're gonna come out as maga, come out as maga, babe. Like, put on the hat, put on a tee, you know? Yeah. Like, you don't have to be so quiet about it, so demure about it. Stand on business.
- [51:37]
Jessica Defino
Her demureness about saying she's conservative or aligned with Mag or something really kind of mirrors her lack of transparency. About her cosmetic interventions.
- [51:50]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Totally too.
- [51:51]
Jessica Defino
You know.
- [51:52]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes. It's always the thing with the Kardashians of like. Well, you didn't technically ask the exactly worded correct question, so I'm not gonna answer it explicitly.
- [52:01]
Jessica Defino
It's like, we can all see, but.
- [52:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right. We all know. We all know, but you refuse to come out and say it.
- [52:07]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [52:08]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And yeah. And of course, the conservatism, like this new obsession with, you know, these techno fascist billionaires, it's like it's all just a part of the grift. Right. It's all just her trying to read the room and, like, pick whatever she thinks is gonna be most popular at any given moment. Like, she's not actually. I don't she has any politics at all. She is conservative because she thinks that conservatism is popular and she sees that all the rich people around her are conservative and she wants to fit in. She wants to be a part of that. That class. And. Yeah. And I mean, man, we see them embracing her wholeheartedly because on the flip side, we're talking about a bunch of nerds and losers. Yes, truly. Who want to be embraced as cool, popular kids. That is all you are seeing play out in the public. That is all Donald Trump is. It's all Jeff Bezos. It's all Elon Musk. It is losers.
- [52:54]
Jessica Defino
Mark Zuckerberg is. Yeah.
- [52:55]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Oh, my God, don't even get me started on fucking Mark Zuckerberg. They are just nerds and losers who want to be popular so badly and embraced by the popular kids. And to them, Kim Kardashian is that. And so them bringing her into the fold, it's like, great, now we're cool. Now we're a list reality stars too. It's like Lauren Sanchez is her best friend Jeff Bezos's soon to be wife.
- [53:15]
Jessica Defino
Getting exactly what they want out of her.
- [53:17]
Emily Kirkpatrick
They're both getting exactly what they want out of this diamond is transactional in the most extreme version of that word. There is nothing real going on here, just things being exchanged. I mean, Mark Zuckerberg also recently wore Kim is my lawyer sweatshirt. Like, literally three years too late.
- [53:32]
Jessica Defino
That's so funny.
- [53:33]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I don't know where he even got that from. Like, that. She doesn't even make those products.
- [53:37]
Jessica Defino
He probably went to like customink.com, you know?
- [53:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
He did. Just along with his Benson Boom jumpsuit. He got both custom made the same week.
- [53:45]
Jessica Defino
Oh.
- [53:46]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And yeah, I don't know, I just. I think we'll. It's just so depressing. I hate but, oh, I was also thinking, you know, she went to that, that billionaire Indian wedding recently with Chloe, and I was thinking that too is kind of like a part of the rebrand. Right? Like you want to be associated. She wants to be royalty is really what she wants to be like part of this royal ruling class. And so she keeps kind of associating with herself, using the aesthetic codes of that to ingratiate herself further into that. And yeah. And I just think we're going to continue to see both a right leaning shift from her as well as like a shift more into this realm of multi billionaires. And we'll see that in both the people that she surrounds herself with and who are her new quote unquote besties. Saying quote unquote a lot today. I don't know why I haven't noticed. I just noticed that I've done it for like the fifth time and I hate it. But yeah. And I think also I think the next boyfriend is going to be a major signifier of this new era of Kim. That's like business lady billionaire Kim, which I also think. I don't know. I was just reading Lauren Sherman today from Puck and she was talking about kind of Sky, Sky Partners and like the utter failure that is Sky Partners. And they just fired a ton of people and it's doing very poorly. And so it's.
- [55:04]
Jessica Defino
Don't they just have one? Didn't they just do the hot sauce brand? Like, what are they even doing?
- [55:08]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I didn't even know they did.
- [55:09]
Jessica Defino
I thought they're for. I might be wrong, but I thought they. Yeah, Truff.
- [55:12]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You're right, they did. Apparently Truff is doing poorly. I don't, I don't know they're doing poorly. But yeah, I just, I just, I'm always interested in kind of the aesthetics Kim promotes versus the reality of what she's doing. Right. And like, it's the same when they were talking about themselves as these business moguls. Right. Meanwhile, they're constantly shuttering failed businesses quietly behind the scenes and losing money wildly. And so it's always about appearances versus reality.
- [55:39]
Jessica Defino
Very Trumpian. Very.
- [55:40]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's very Trumpian. Totally. I get the, I get what they like about this, about this time and this movement. And I, I don't think it's an accident that they're also like some of our most famous people at this particular time in history. For sure.
- [55:54]
Jessica Defino
Well, I think that's a perfect segue to our meaty topic of the month. So we're doing something fresh, something Exciting. And we are having a reporter on the pod to talk about an article from Mother Jones about MAGA aesthetics. So Emily and I are going to chat with reporter Ina. Oh. About her recent piece, which was called in youn the Brutal Aesthetics of maga. Um, so, yeah, here's Ina. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
- [56:30]
Ina
Thank you for having me.
- [56:31]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, thank you.
- [56:33]
Jessica Defino
You reported out a new piece for Mother Jones recently called in youn the Brutal Aesthetics of maga, which asks, does proximity to power rely on a specific look? And I said this to you right before we started recording, but as soon as I read it, I was like, finally, somebody is talking about this in a way that, like, makes sense to me and goes beyond the surface level of, like, these people look weird. So, first of all, thank you for writing this.
- [57:00]
Ina
Oh, no problem. But I will say I did another previous. I did a podcast thing earlier in the week, and the. I just kept calling it weird because I just feel like I think that's appropriate.
- [57:11]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I think that's fair. Yeah, yeah, it is weird.
- [57:14]
Jessica Defino
And it's so much more.
- [57:16]
Ina
Exactly. But it's just. I'm not an eloquent speaker, so I will say this is weird. Just came out repeatedly.
- [57:25]
Jessica Defino
I feel the same way whenever we're recording. I'm just, like, so much more comfortable writing. And then when I try to, like, speak out what I'm talking about on a podcast, it goes to hell.
- [57:33]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It never comes out quite right. Yeah.
- [57:35]
Jessica Defino
So, yeah, for listeners, take a moment and read Inez piece, because it's so, so good.
- [57:40]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And then circle back. Yeah.
- [57:42]
Jessica Defino
But, yeah, to start, do you want to just, like, talk us through it? Like, when did you decide this is something you wanted to cover? What was your research process like?
- [57:50]
Ina
Sure. I think that it started with Kristi Noem, and I start the piece that way. But, you know, I think it was, like, a week into the administration, and, you know, she's out in New York, and she's truly in, like, the full glam of a housewife, you know, like, on social media, talking about this immigration raid. And I found it. I mean, it was so absurd. And we're. You know, plenty of people were talking about it online, and I was gonna just start with, like, a quick kind of maybe like a blog post or, you know, and. But I just kept thinking about, like, why. And just, you know, plenty of people have written about Mar A Lago face, and. But I. I just. Honestly, this question, and I don't want to. I don't know for certain that this woman has gotten plastic surgery. And I don't want to say I, I don't know, I've asked, but what is it like, what kind of mindset do you have to be in to cut your face off for Donald Trump? You know that. And that is, I'm not saying she did.
- [58:55]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That's quite a way to put it, though.
- [58:56]
Jessica Defino
Allegedly.
- [58:57]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, allegedly cutting her face up for Donald Trump.
- [59:00]
Ina
And I just think, like, that question just kept looming over me and, you know, and applying that question in historical context, in the context of, you know, just like feminism and Trumpism and it kind of, you know, and I, and then I talked to some, you know, academics on the, on the topic, and it just kept proving itself to be, you know, far more than a simple blog post. And I kind of just reported it out and explored it and, and then through the lens of. At the same time, I'm 37 years old and, you know, I say in the piece, I have a three year old, I am really fucking tired all the time. And, you know, I'm also going to Korea next month. I've been researching my own procedures that I want to do. And, you know, so, like what, you know, I don't want to also vilify these women for being, for doing, for making the choices that they do, at least aesthetically. But as I say in the piece, there is a fine line or not a fine line. It's just like there's a difference there. It just seems to be, you know, getting. Having these procedures in the name of cruelty is a different thing. And I just want to explore that.
- [60:10]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, I mean, that's what I really liked most about this piece is that it brought together the fact that like Mar a Lago face or whatever you want to call it is just one part of a broader trend across the political spectrum of sort of like uncanny aesthetics. Did you feel any resistance to, like, bringing in those other things? Did you feel any resistance in yourself to talking about, like, Botox and your own feelings and like, comparing the two when one is so aligned with cruelty?
- [60:38]
Ina
That's a great question. I think in general, I sort of, I don't mind at all putting myself into even just like Q and A's, where maybe even the author is like, why are you injecting yourself into this? This is about me. But I didn't mind at all. And I'm used to that. I kind of have a diaristic tendency in general, and I just thought that it was fair. Also, I, I almost felt the omission of my own views and relationship to these procedures and just beauty culture in be an unfair way to look at these individuals.
- [61:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Totally. I think Jess's newsletter is always pointing this out, but, like, we're all kind of victims of this beauty standards in these industries, and we all process it in different ways. And it's like, you know, like, the Mar a Lago face is one way of processing it, and we're analyzing those repercussions behind it. But, like, we also all think about our beauty. You know, think about our faces, think about aging, think about how we adapt to that.
- [61:41]
Ina
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
- [61:43]
Jessica Defino
And so how would you, like, define the difference between just kind of like, the broader way that surgery and injectables exist in the culture and, like, the specifics of this MAGA look?
- [61:55]
Ina
I think it would be layered. I would say that if, you know, I. And I think a republic. There was a Republican strategist who told the New York Times this, and I included that in the piece. But. But it seems like Kristi Noem and a lot of these characters are playing to an audience of one, you know, and that man being Donald Trump. I think it. I think it's more complicated than that. You know, I think it's reinforcing very regressive gender norms.
- [62:22]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Absolutely.
- [62:23]
Ina
At the same time, while, you know, in policy, it's playing out as well. You know, I don't know if you saw this week, Kristi Noem was out in El Salvador, you know, in front of, you know, these detainees who don't have shirts on, who, you know, and she's. She's got her Rolex. You know, she's got. She's. She's in very caked up makeup. It's just, you know, it. I mean, the difference is so glaring. But at the same time, you know, it is very performative. But also, like, you know, what isn't performative about, like, the way I approach it, but, you know, it is in service, though, to this body of politic that is so. I don't know, just like.
- [63:11]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, well, the thing that, like, really struck me is, like, all of the surgeries and injectables and, like, cosmetic interventions that are, like, obviously being performed are, like, in policy, for example, in Trump's, like, youth gender affirming care ban language, like, labeled as mutilation. And, like, the contrast between calling it mutilation for you. But my right for me is, yeah, it's really stark.
- [63:41]
Ina
It's so stark and it's upsetting. It's like. And yeah, this is the gender affirming care that they approve of. It's like, you know, only for us and only in this. To push this agenda at the same time, while. Yes, it's just inflicting unending cruelty on others. And. Yeah, so the difference is both glaring but also way more complex than just, like, that's fucking weird. And like, I would. Would maybe like to say, like, I would go for a more natural look or whatever that means.
- [64:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, yeah. I was also struck by the way you kind of talked about it, like, obviously performing gender, but also like, performing gender as a way to get ahead of work at work without being threatening at work. I thought was very interesting.
- [64:29]
Ina
Yeah. I think it was Professor Schreiber who said that, and I think that's a very solid point. You know, it's like I, you know, like, I think, yeah, the Trump administration is, like, on. They're going to be making some sort of record of, like, having a bunch of women in their. In their cabinet. And, you know, in their eyes, they're empowering women, and they are, you know, Donald Trump is like the great empowerer of women, but it's only to a certain point, you know, because let's look at the facts that are also rolling back, like, tremendously. Rights for women, obviously, like abortion. And it's. That dichotomy is. Is. It's stark, it's jarring.
- [65:16]
Jessica Defino
It also kind of feels like, to me, like. And I think you touch on this in the piece, like an. An almost an apologetic for their power, because it's like these women are standing on the shoulders of the feminists who came before them and fought for women's right to, like, be in the workplace or hold public office or vote. Or vote. Yeah. And because they're in these positions, they're not performing behaviorally traditional femininity. So it's almost like they have to overcompensate aesthetically.
- [65:43]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Totally.
- [65:44]
Ina
Yes.
- [65:44]
Jessica Defino
Like, apologize.
- [65:46]
Ina
I absolutely think that's true. And. Yeah, and it's just. What's also been really funny is seeing the rights responses piece. Like, I'm just jealous.
- [65:59]
Jessica Defino
Oh, really? Have they written that?
- [66:02]
Ina
Yeah, like, I've gotten.
- [66:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Oh, my God, you wish you were that pretty. That's classic.
- [66:07]
Ina
You can't stand that. Like, you're not in a position of power. And like, like, it really also reinforces, like, we are living in just such, like, our own little bubbles all the time. And, you know, like, what I can. What you and I might consider beautiful, it's just clearly not what maybe half the population here thinks is, quote, unquote, Beautiful, but Right.
- [66:34]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. Well, to me also, like, there's something about this look that is also like a performance of class, you know, like it is signaling like you do have the wealth to adapt your face, adapt your body to the trends. What. You know, and, and that also is obviously something very. At the center of MAGA is like displaying wealth.
- [66:53]
Ina
Very.
- [66:54]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Displaying upper class. Yeah. A garishness to it.
- [66:57]
Ina
And one of the sources I talked to, she said that used to be very much the case. Maybe I don't want to 50s, 60s, but when it was primarily overwhelmingly rich women who could only afford this, you know, they wanted you to see the bandages they wanted you to see that they had worked on because it was a way of showing your class and.
- [67:17]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It'S an investment in size.
- [67:19]
Ina
Yeah, exactly. And I don't think there, I mean, not that anyone should feel shame for getting anything that they want procedurally. But yeah, I think there's a very, I think that kind of frankness is, you know, there's a, there's a reason why also our Homeland Security Secretary is wearing a Rolex in these videos.
- [67:41]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Exactly. Yeah.
- [67:44]
Ina
It's not like, you know, like the lowest Rolex, but, you know, it's to show that off, like YouTube, like, maybe like, you know, if you two subscribe to these politics, you too can also wear a Rolex one day.
- [67:57]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's the billionaire fantasy, the aesthetic American dream. Oh, yeah, we can't tax rich people because I might be one tomorrow, you know, so well.
- [68:07]
Jessica Defino
And the class performance of it all, I think really stands out specifically in Republican men who are doing some of these procedures. Because as I've like said on the pod before, like, what Matt Gaetz is doing is not gender affirming care. He's not doing like, traditionally masculine things. Like, it feels like something else. And you talk about some of his potential motivations in the piece too, about, like, empowerment within this administration.
- [68:35]
Ina
Yeah, I mean, Matt, Matt Gaetz. Yeah, like that, that Botox, I think it was at the rnc, was so obvious. And I, in some ways I have to say, like, maybe I applaud that. Like, good for you, dude. Like, you're not that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're not subscribing to this strict, like, I'm a dude who doesn't care about my looks sort of thing. But in, in that sense, I think it's like, you know, it's playing to the camera. It's like, you know, it's, it's. And you know, Donald Trump is watching, you know, and he did ultimately get A point. Nominated to become Attorney General that didn't. Because of his own, you know, personal scandal.
- [69:14]
Emily Kirkpatrick
His own issues.
- [69:15]
Ina
Yeah, he's weird. Sex things. But, like, you know, I. I think it is also about, like, I know that this one person is watching, and I want to look the best. He. And it does seem like people who, quote, unquote, look the best get these very powerful positions in government.
- [69:33]
Jessica Defino
Well, especially because Trump himself is such a cartoonish figure.
- [69:37]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Absolutely.
- [69:38]
Jessica Defino
Actually, I was wondering, too. Did you see the Apprentice? The. The movie? Not the show.
- [69:43]
Ina
Oh, no, not the movie.
- [69:44]
Jessica Defino
Okay. There's. I mean, it's obviously fictional, but I watched it last weekend, and I'm sure there's some, like, real world parallels. But what was so interesting to me is that they show Trump sort of being mentored by Roy Cohn.
- [69:58]
Ina
Yeah.
- [69:58]
Jessica Defino
And Roy Cohn in the movie is very tan. And there's many scenes where Trump goes to visit him and he's in these tanning beds. And they show that, like, aesthetic transition in the movie of, like, Trump taking this behavior, this aesthetic marker of power from this guy who is mentoring him and turning it into his own thing. And it feels like. And I mean, who knows how that went in real life, but it felt like such a perfect parallel to what's happening with Republican aesthetics, what he's doing.
- [70:28]
Emily Kirkpatrick
To the men around him. Yeah.
- [70:30]
Ina
I mean, I gotta watch it, but.
- [70:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, that's very interesting.
- [70:33]
Ina
I do know that he was. Yeah. Like his, like, notorious mentor. I wouldn't, you know, honestly, I. Yes, it's fictional, but I wouldn't. I bet it also, like, there's a lot of.
- [70:45]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I wouldn't discount it totally, especially because for Trump, like, Roy was, like, such a figure of, like, masculinity and power and strength. So for him to want to adapt the aesthetic codes of that man makes perfect sense to me. The same way these people are now adapting his aesthetic codes that are, like, so, like, warped.
- [71:03]
Jessica Defino
Yes. I mean, okay. One thing that stood out to me, too, in your article is the comment from Kristi Noem's office when she was like, I assume you're asking about men.
- [71:13]
Ina
Yeah.
- [71:14]
Jessica Defino
What was that about? Tell. What do you think?
- [71:16]
Ina
That was for legal purposes, obviously. I had to read.
- [71:20]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Sure.
- [71:21]
Ina
Did you. Do you have anything to say about these allegations? And they kept responding, actually, which I found. I was like, oh, this is cool. They kept responding, like, asking more questions about the piece and. And clearly evading any actual substantial response. But. And then finally one of them was like, well, I'm assuming you're asking about the men, which I felt was just such a tacit way of accusing me, I guess of being sexist and that this piece and, and you know, I don't, I don't necessarily fault them for that either, for that gut instinct. But then they, and then I was like, yes, I'm actually, you know, I've reached out to Matt Gates and, but then they replied with like, just something nasty like, oh, sounds like a real Pulitzer worthy.
- [72:13]
Jessica Defino
Oh my God.
- [72:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You're like, thank you. It is.
- [72:15]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [72:15]
Ina
And then I stopped and I was like, I, I, I hear you and you're being not nice.
- [72:22]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But I think that line though is like, I don't know, it's so at the core of doing any type of, this type of questioning though, it's like there's an oft repeated phrase, often from the right that's like, to critique women is inherently anti feminist. Like you, you like literally can't question women's choices or motivations or yeah. Their behavior without condemning all women for some reason.
- [72:45]
Ina
Absolutely. I mean, it's such a twisted weaponization.
- [72:49]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [72:50]
Ina
And yeah, but that obviously that's been going on for decades or, yeah, I don't know, centuries or I don't even know what.
- [72:57]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Eternity.
- [72:58]
Ina
Eternity. And yeah, I was, I was a little taken aback when she, she asked. But.
- [73:06]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, I, I'm really intrigued to hear more about the young conservatives who are like almost embarrassed by this being.
- [73:16]
Ina
Associated with this look, honestly, like I did want to talk to these influencers myself, but so I had, Yeah, I shouldn't really admit this, but yes, it was more not lazy. But I did also like, you know, this, that cover story in New York magazine.
- [73:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, Brock did a great job.
- [73:34]
Ina
I thought that was a perfect distillation of what. Actually I was surprised, I was surprised by that quote and the frankness with which she kind of was like, I don't want to look like that. Yeah, I, I need to look normal. I need to like look like a liberal or something, I think is what she said. And yeah, and I think I asked this, but you know, is that a, is that a product of the fact that she's in her, she's in her 30s and that these young influencers are by nature just like, you know, they're not in their 50s or 60s and will they eventually, you know, catch up to that, like allure that. So I, I, I don't but my guess is no. I think that anyone, most people can recognize that this is, that is not attractive. Not, not that I want to go, I don't really want to go into, like, what I think is attractive.
- [74:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Sure. But. But it might not match their beauty standards for Gen Z.
- [74:35]
Jessica Defino
Yes.
- [74:35]
Ina
Right. But, you know, like, if, But I think, you know, as. And I say this, like, even Donald Trump seems to have limits with this, you know, like the Laurel.
- [74:45]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [74:46]
Ina
And, and she. Yeah. Her face is.
- [74:49]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's so, it's far from where it started. Yeah, yeah.
- [74:54]
Ina
And it's, it's come along. Feels cartoonish, but it, you know, so even, like, no one, no one wants to look like that. And is that, like. And I think for young conservatives, I, I do wonder if it's a product of literal. Just youth or just recognizing as us. Like.
- [75:16]
Jessica Defino
Well, it kind of reminds me of this, the tidbit you have in there about Queen Victoria. Is it Queen Elizabeth? Yeah. Queen Elizabeth. Where? What is it?
- [75:27]
Ina
She apparently just ate a lot of sweets and, like, was obsessed with honey, maybe. And, you know, people who wanted to show affinity with her would artificially blacken their teeth to make it, you know, because. And that was considered just pretty at the time. You know, I, There was another example with her.
- [75:53]
Jessica Defino
I do think that, like, the grotesque over time becomes the beautiful when it's associated with the ruling class. And, like, it really wouldn't surprise me if in, like, 10 years, if politics continue down this path, if this was more normalized or considered more attractive.
- [76:11]
Ina
Absolutely. Like, which is horrifying to think of, but, you know, I, you know, the question of, like, is MAGA here to stay for decades at a time, or is it going to be gone once Trump is gone, dead, whatever it is. Like, I personally, I suspect MAGA ism. And just like, that is, like, here to stay. And I, I do wonder, and I don't think I put this in the piece, but I did. Another question that loomed over me was, you know, 20 years from now, will your face be enough kind of evidence to show, like, how you voted? I, I mean, I think that's probably going too far, but, you know, if over time.
- [76:56]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. You're certainly aligning yourself with a particular aesthetic that's associated with a particular political movement, you know.
- [77:02]
Jessica Defino
Yeah, well, and I, like, don't even think that's that strange. I think that's, like, it goes back to the beginnings of beauty. It makes me think of, like, punk makeup from the 70s. Like, you could look across the room at a show or wherever you are, and you could see somebody and say, okay, their aesthetic probably signifies a certain politics, totally. A certain set of beliefs, and, like, this person is part of My community, this person shares a lot of my beliefs. And I think juggle has always been meant to be that juggle. Emily's favorite example.
- [77:37]
Ina
Oh, what is. Is that insane clown palsy.
- [77:40]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. It's the full black and white clown face makeup. But they do have, like, there are. There is a politics to juggle it. Like, you do kind of know what that person believes in and what they ascribe to. And, you know, I don't know. I think it's very interesting and I can see that also being kind of, I don't know, part of the reticence of like a younger conservative person to participate in these types of aesthetic trends is like, like not participating in. It allows you more of a freedom of motion through. Through different social groups, through different liberal. And also you can indoctrinate other liberals potentially into conservatism if they embrace you as a fellow liberal, you know, before judging you.
- [78:16]
Ina
Yeah. And I try to get at this in the piece that like, there are, like, once you do have plastic surgery or go on in life, it truly is like impossible to ever revert back to your original face. You can. You people do, like, if they don't like the way they look, they can attempt it, but the more you go under the knife, the more like, you move further away from. And I do like there for people who might regret that, you know, subscribing to this level, this beauty and, and this, this, this, these politics, you know, like what, Like, I, I feel, I feel empathy. I feel bad. You know, like you up your face because you were wrapped up in, you know, the, the air, the attraction of Donald Trump and Maga and I. There's something very tragic about that.
- [79:13]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And sure.
- [79:13]
Ina
Because that's not something like you can. It's not like a. Just a Trump T shirt that you can just throw away.
- [79:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Sure.
- [79:19]
Ina
This is a permanent thing you've done to yourself, like a tattoo. But even tattoos you can like.
- [79:26]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. And also I just think like, this beauty idea, it's like, well, with all beauty ideals, it's an ever moving goalpost. So like, even if you get to some aesthetic ideal that's like your perfect imaginary, it will change. I mean, look at the Kardashians, right? Like, there was a body type that they brought in that was the aesthetic ideal, and now they've dropped it and they've moved on to the next one, and everyone has to come with them or be passe.
- [79:48]
Ina
Yeah. I mentioned like the facial grafting, I think it's called.
- [79:51]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [79:52]
Ina
Like, or. And then what were Those fat transfer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like within a year that what became in vogue for your cheeks changed like completely. You know, Anya Taylor Joy, she looks like, you know, that look of carved out is got. Is apparently not in this year.
- [80:12]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And I just, I just read that article.
- [80:14]
Jessica Defino
Yeah.
- [80:15]
Ina
And it's like, I don't know if I, I'm sure she's not worried about this because she's beautiful anyway and very, very rich and talented. But it's like, oh my God, I just did this to my face and now this isn't it anymore. And I just, I can't imagine.
- [80:28]
Emily Kirkpatrick
And that's the beauty industry in a nutshell. Because if it's not something new, they can't sell you something new. You know, like if they're. You're like, oh, you just achieved it like that you're the goal now. Like, you're all done.
- [80:37]
Ina
Right.
- [80:37]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Like the business doesn't work anymore anymore.
- [80:39]
Ina
Right, exactly.
- [80:41]
Jessica Defino
Yeah. I also have to wonder too. And I don't know if this is like being too sympathetic, but sometimes I'm like, these people are at the mercy of doctors the same way anybody else is. And so much of like overfilling and the overdone look has to do with just like the inherently like sort of corrupt structure of the beauty industry where you pay per unit of juvederm or filler or whatever and doctors will convince you to overfill because they get more money when you do. They will convince you you need a top up more often than you do because that's another appointment for them. And so I don't know, I have to wonder if that's part of it as well.
- [81:20]
Ina
Like, definitely. And, and you know, also to that point, like plenty of Democrats, plenty of, you know.
- [81:27]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Absolutely. Nancy Pelosi, like Joe Biden.
- [81:34]
Ina
And you know, I. This would, this is. I'm not traditionally a reporter, so I'm too lazy to do this, but I would love to track down like a D.C. plastic surgeon who, who's behind all of this. And you know, that's got to be its own cottage industry too.
- [81:50]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Absolutely.
- [81:51]
Jessica Defino
Yes.
- [81:51]
Ina
This is. Maybe this isn't exactly to that point, but you know, it's like, why. But at least Nancy Pelosi and like Joe Biden or anyone on that side of the aisle, they're not looked well until about. And I guess sometimes looked ridiculous.
- [82:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But.
- [82:03]
Ina
But I don't know, there's just such a difference and it's.
- [82:07]
Jessica Defino
Well, there's a difference too. Well, I guess not much of it. I don't Wanna make too many apologies for the Democrats, but in, you know, actions and policies that you back to like, there isn't that inherent cruelness of we're going to keep these procedures and surgeries for ourselves and create like, barriers for other people to access this when it's healthcare versus aesthetics.
- [82:32]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Well, and Democrats also don't have like, you know, Trump has a very public policy of like hiring people because they're hot and they like, look good on television. Like, I mean, that certainly is true to an extent with all politicians, but he's very clearly made like, well, she's very good looking, so she should be in front of the camera. And I will give her a job.
- [82:49]
Ina
With Kristi Noem too, when, you know, she, she was a governor, but it never worked in the Department of Homeland Security. She doesn't have a background in law enforcement. It was an unusual choice.
- [83:00]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right.
- [83:00]
Ina
And. But, you know, as she is, she even quoted Trump recently telling her, like, I want your face in the ads. I want your face. I want you to thank me and I want your face. It's. It's just. Yeah, but there's no, there's no subtlety like there.
- [83:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes.
- [83:15]
Ina
Care that it's obvious why she's been installed in this very powerful position despite lacking the resume or the traditional resume as we.
- [83:26]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [83:26]
Ina
Call it.
- [83:27]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Well, he's a beauty pageant guy.
- [83:29]
Jessica Defino
You know, any, anyone's own beauty brand now.
- [83:33]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Right. Never forget about Trump. Yeah.
- [83:35]
Ina
There's like a male version and a female version.
- [83:38]
Emily Kirkpatrick
There sure is. And there's also an assassination themed fragrance that's separate from the victory fragrance. We talked about it on the podcast. I'm obsessed with it.
- [83:47]
Ina
Oh, I did not know that.
- [83:49]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's. You have to go read the descriptions of the. It's the best thing I've ever read. The, the colognes are all like, for the virile, masculine, strong man and all the women's ones are like, for the dainty, like, demure lady. Yeah.
- [84:02]
Ina
And Right. It speaks exactly.
- [84:05]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Very traditional gender norms. Yeah.
- [84:08]
Ina
That matched what they're also doing in policy. And it's absolutely. Oh, my God. An assassination one, though.
- [84:14]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah. I believe it's called Fight, Fight, Fight. I believe is the fragrance Fight, Fight.
- [84:20]
Jessica Defino
Fight, Fight by Donald Trump.
- [84:22]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You also just reminded me something I was thinking about when you were talking specifically about the men in your article. I. The way we also kind of talk about Marco Rubio wearing like heels or like Cuban heels and that kind of like a aesthetic switch to be more masculine, to be tall, you know, kind of just feed into, again, those traditional gender roles.
- [84:41]
Ina
Yeah. And at the same time, you know, hanging out with Andrew Tate.
- [84:46]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Totally.
- [84:46]
Ina
You know, it's. It matches what they do in, like, I keep saying this. I'm sorry, but policy in action. What? And it's. But now we have an aesthetic to. To go along with it. And. Yeah. Like, I. I can see why some people could initially approach this piece as being superficial, but I think it really goes really deep into just the overall awful. Awfulness that's going on right now.
- [85:18]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes, I. I think the aesthetics are very indicative of the. Everything going on and the policies and the. Just the point of view. And I think that's something Jess and I talk a lot about in both of our work. Like, Jess does beauty, I do fashion. But, you know, both subjects are often treated very superficially, very frivolously. And, I don't know, I feel like I'm often being told that I'm making too much out of small things, but I'm like, no. Like, this is a reflection of culture being shown back to you visually. And if we don't critically process it, if we don't analyze what it's trying to tell us, like. Like, we're missing an opportunity to really understand the world around us. And. Yeah, I think that's a shame.
- [85:55]
Ina
Absolutely. I love Vanessa Friedman. Obviously, you guys know her.
- [86:00]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [86:00]
Ina
I don't know anything about fashion, but I think her analysis is great. And the way. And she's always accused of, you know. Yeah. Making too much out of.
- [86:10]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You're overthinking it. Yeah. It's not that deep. It really is that deep. There's a whole industry behind it. There's whole teams of professionals picking this stuff.
- [86:17]
Ina
It's a lot of what fueled Donald Trump's rise.
- [86:20]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Complete.
- [86:21]
Ina
Complete. It's the performance, the aesthetics.
- [86:24]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes.
- [86:24]
Ina
And so if you're. If you're not. If you're going to dismiss it, then you're really not understanding how Donald Trump and how this moment all arrived. And so I love all of this very much.
- [86:36]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah.
- [86:37]
Jessica Defino
Well, thank you so much for being here, for chatting us through this story.
- [86:41]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Great story.
- [86:42]
Jessica Defino
Okay, shall we do our mess of the month?
- [86:45]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Let's get into it. My mess of month is Meghan Markle's shop, my account. Not Meghan Markle, specifically her shop, my account.
- [86:53]
Jessica Defino
Oh, yeah.
- [86:54]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I just think. I just can't get over. I just think it's so funny. It is just so funny to me for a member of the Royal family to have affiliate links and, I don't know, there's something really perfect about. To me, it's really just this beautiful encapsulation of, like, the modern state of capitalism that here is this woman who, again, is adjacent to, like, the most insane colonial wealth on the planet. Like England specifically. You know, specifically what they've done.
- [87:26]
Jessica Defino
To be clear.
- [87:27]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, to be clear. And. And also has, like, multimillion dollar contracts with Netflix and Spotify. And it's still, like, not enough. Like, she still needs to make some small percentage off selling a bunch of junk to the general public. They probably don't need. Like, she's just going back to her influencer roots in such an extreme way.
- [87:45]
Jessica Defino
So bizarre to me because it's like, clearly her and her team were, like, very aware of not putting anything, like, offensive out there with the show, the new Netflix show. Like, it was so bland, probably because it had to be so, like, tightly watched. And this feels like the opposite. The opposite of that. Like, don't you think people are going to have, like, a lot to say?
- [88:10]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Jess, you need to know that she's not putting any major designer brands on there.
- [88:14]
Jessica Defino
Oh, okay. That's right. She's just like, I think that's worse. I think that's worse to, like, list. I don't. I don't know what's on here, but, like, Zara Fast Fashion Pants and then get 50 cents per pair and you sell thousands of.
- [88:28]
Emily Kirkpatrick
No, I. I haven't extensively looked through all the things that she's promoting, but I assume it's probably. I'm. I assume it's all on brand, so it's probably like eco conscious makeup. Like, women own small businesses. Like, it's just an extension of, like.
- [88:42]
Jessica Defino
On the show, she was like, I like high, low. I'm wearing Zara and Jenny Kane and Laura Piana.
- [88:47]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You know what? Maybe not. Maybe I'm wrong.
- [88:49]
Jessica Defino
I don't know. I haven't looked.
- [88:50]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But that makes it funny too, though, to not include big designers, because it's like, well, that is what you wear, that is what you buy. Like, her whole aesthetic is, like, very expensive. It's. I forget someone described it recently. Oh, it was Amy O'Dell. It was Amy Odell interviewing Liz Goldwyn, actually. And they were talking about kind of this, like, LA spiritual New age aesthetic that's actually just like, money. It's just money put into a different package that's supposed to be like, chill and beachy and like, you know, chill girl. But it's really just like, insane wealth applied to a different. A different end than we typically see it. Yeah. I. I just. I don't know. I'm just so struck by the shop, my account, and as I am by her, as ever brand that's coming out and that her insistence on selling people jam. I do not understand the insistence on jam. Why does she think I think Meghan Markle and I think strawberry jam? I don't.
- [89:48]
Jessica Defino
I don't know. It makes me think it must be extremely authentic. She must just like, she loves jam and she doesn't care that this is probably a bad business model. Like, this is her passion. She's got a passion for jam. I don't know.
- [90:01]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Okay, fine. You have a passion for jam. What's taking so long? Why is the rollout like this? What?
- [90:05]
Jessica Defino
Like, because it must be perfect. She cares so much.
- [90:08]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Stonewall Kitchen is like lapping you. Like, what is happening. Like, you can do this faster. You can do this better. I don't know. It's so silly to me. And the font, the name, of course, so silly. The font. I mean, better than America Riviera Orchard. I'll tell you that right now.
- [90:20]
Jessica Defino
Agree.
- [90:20]
Emily Kirkpatrick
But again, already somebody else's name that she's. And also, let me just go on a sidebar for a second about fonts, because what is up with the font? Why does it look like that? Why do all celebrities use these Etsy ass fonts? Like, I just move beyond the presets of Microsoft Word. Like, hire one good graphic designer on your team. Please, please, please. I talk about this in my YouTube videos, but it's like, Like Mindy Killing. Whatever. Mindy Killing recently bought these brooches, these diamond brooches with her kid's name that she put on her Kelly Birkin. That's like a What? Like a $90,000 Birkin or Kelly bag. Sorry. And. And that she's using brush script font. Like the font that you find on children's softball uniforms. Like, why. Why would you do that? I don't know. It just negates anything you're trying to do. It's not very luxurious. Let's say that.
- [91:17]
Jessica Defino
I don't know why? Because I don't know if the fonts match at all. But it. It calls to mind Preserve.
- [91:23]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, it's very preserve. Honestly, as ever, in its entirety, is deeply and quite literally preserves as well.
- [91:33]
Jessica Defino
Whoa.
- [91:34]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's just so. It's so odd to me. I love to watch her do it though. Like, don't stop. Don't stop on my account. But I. It's just so deeply strange.
- [91:41]
Jessica Defino
And I. I support the jam making.
- [91:44]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, I Support the jam. I less so the Shop My account seems unnecessary.
- [91:48]
Jessica Defino
No, but that's just because I. I hate affiliate sales of all kinds. And I. I'll rail against anyone who has an affiliate. Excuse me, even you, Emily.
- [91:55]
Emily Kirkpatrick
How dare you? How dare you. But also, like, from a branding perspective, as a. As a duchess coming out with a Shop My account, does that not communicate that things are, like, financially bad?
- [92:07]
Jessica Defino
Why didn't you build your own site? Why aren't you taking a bigger cut and not go? Why are you giving Shop My a piece of you?
- [92:14]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Oh, my God. You know what I never even thought about? Well, first of all, Shop My has got to be paying her something on the back end to, like, promote them. Right, but that's a great point because you just reminded me when I worked at Bullet magazine, which no one remembers or has ever heard of at this point. Well, we're older. We're an older lady at this point. We remember. We were used to that, even our middle age. Yeah, yeah, but. But I think most people don't remember, but when I worked at Bullet, Bullet was obsessed with this idea of opening up a Bullet shop. And so part of my job, I worked in the fashion closet, unpaid, obviously. And part of our job was reaching out to all these brands and trying to, like, create commission rates with them, to, like, feature them in the store. And we were building that entirely on our website. We were not working with, like, a third party affiliate like our. So it's like, if Bullet had enough foresight to do that in, like, whatever that was, like, 2013, surely Meghan Markle's team should. Should likewise be doing the same thing. And I assume, like, this is all modeled off of goop, obviously, and GOOP is absolutely doing their own affiliate. Yeah, like, their store is their own affiliate situation. They're not doing it through a shop. My third party. Very interesting. That's a very interesting point. She needs to have a bigger vision. I feel like she's still operating like she's in her tig days, you know, young and scrappy. Yeah. And that's not who you are anymore. You're not an upstart blogger, like rising starlet. You know, you made it, like, start acting like it. And also get a team around you who can execute at an appropriate time frame and an appropriate level. I mean, I say that to Kim Kardashian all the time, but still can't shop flowers. I want those sprinkles. I want that jam.
- [93:53]
Jessica Defino
I'm gonna buy them.
- [93:54]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I want that sweet, sweet strawberry jam.
- [93:58]
Jessica Defino
My mess of the month is the hair color of the season. Industrial complex.
- [94:02]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You know it.
- [94:03]
Jessica Defino
And the beauty media's mad dash to come up with the most like, inane, chaotic, and ultimately meaningless micro trend name to describe the same fucking blah shade of blonde.
- [94:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Don't forget edible.
- [94:16]
Jessica Defino
Edible. It's all edible. It's all gonna be food based. So I've mostly noticed this lately on Marie Claire's Instagram. I don't know if they've been doing it or if it's a new feature, but I'm getting served these little Instagram posts, like, every other day that are like, breaking news. You will be killed if you don't have blondie cookie with brownie chunk swirl hair this spring. No. And it's so, like, it's. It's unsettling. The last. The last two were quote. You heard it here first. Butter Biscuit Blonde is the hair color update to make for spring. And that's over a picture of Sydney Sweeney. And then literally, like a week later, an expert colorist has confirmed Chestnut Teddy Brond is the color change to make ahead of spring. What do I do over a picture of Hailey Bieber? They're the same shade. It's the same picture. It's the same shade.
- [95:08]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's amazing.
- [95:08]
Jessica Defino
And also, chestnut is red. Brown.
- [95:12]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yes.
- [95:13]
Jessica Defino
Chestnut is like a rich, reddish brown.
- [95:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
That is. You are correct. Yeah.
- [95:17]
Jessica Defino
This color is not chestnut Teddy Bronde. Bronde and chestnut aren't in the same.
- [95:22]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Jess. Words don't mean anything anymore. I don't know if you got the memo, but, like, we can say whatever we now, and it doesn't have to apply to real speaking.
- [95:29]
Jessica Defino
Speaking of a hair color not meaning anything, I got a press release. I got a press release about Lindsay Lohan's new hair color, which is, again, just blonde. It's blonde. But her celebrity stylist, Demetrius Janetos is calling it almond milk. Just almond milk.
- [95:50]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I don't understand almond milk hair. Almond milk doesn't. Isn't that color.
- [95:56]
Jessica Defino
No. If your almond milk looks like this.
- [95:58]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I think something bad has happened. Yeah. I think it's spoiled.
- [96:02]
Jessica Defino
Something bad's gonna happen to you. Like, this is just. It's blonde hair. We just. We have to stop the madness.
- [96:08]
Emily Kirkpatrick
It's so. Yeah. And again, it's just marketing. Right? Like, it's just tactics to sell.
- [96:13]
Jessica Defino
Who does it work on? Like, can be so embarrassed to go into a hair salon and be like, can you make me?
- [96:21]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I would never.
- [96:22]
Jessica Defino
Chestnut Teddy brawn.
- [96:23]
Emily Kirkpatrick
You couldn't pay me to say these words out loud to a Professional. No, I would just say I'd like to be this. I'd point to a picture and say that I want. I like that color.
- [96:32]
Jessica Defino
Excuse me. My favorite butter biscuit blonde is all the rage.
- [96:35]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I heard it's trending for spring. Could you fabricate that on my. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'll just say as someone. When I worked at People magazine, I was often tasked with covering celebrity hair changes. And there's no greater scourge on this earth than talking about a woman changing her hair color and trying to make it interesting to the general public. It is just a true nightmare. You. There's this rule when you publish whatever blog posts. It's like, I don't know. At the time they were telling this changes all the time, but they were telling us at the time that if your article wasn't 250 words, Google, like wouldn't scan it as like a. A real newsworthy blog post or whatever. So you have to meet a minimum word requirement of 250 words. And trying to come up with 250 words about a woman going from like one shade of brown to another shade of brown is a true unholy nightmare. And no one should have to talk about this. So I get why, I get why beauty writers are doing this. I. It doesn't excuse it, but I understand where the center. Because you have to create something like you have to create some narrative three.
- [97:36]
Jessica Defino
To four words in the. In the trend name.
- [97:39]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I don't know if my articles are still on the People magazine site, but if you go back and see, look up some of the things I was writing. Truly unhinged mania that I was writing at like 7am trying to just make word count about often Kylie Jenner's wigs. Which also pissed me off in a new dimension because I was like, this isn't even real and it's gonna change tomorrow and I'm gonna have to do this all over again.
- [98:00]
Jessica Defino
Maybe I'll scrounge up some old links for the show. Please.
- [98:03]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Embarrassing. We'll put those behind a paywall. I don't need people to know where to access those. But yeah. And I also think Hailey Bieber is very much to blame for this modern trend with. With the nails and the hair colors and everything is a cookie and a candy and a baked good that I very much associate with her as like the new modern vernacular of how we talk about that.
- [98:22]
Jessica Defino
I agree. I agree. Although I do think it started with Namvo and Dewey Dumpling skin.
- [98:30]
Emily Kirkpatrick
She was pre.
- [98:32]
Jessica Defino
She was pre glazed donut skin.
- [98:34]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Yeah, that's so true.
- [98:36]
Jessica Defino
I interviewed her once for a a piece on, like, Food Beauty, the makeup artist Namvo, and I was like, how does it feel to have, like, completely changed the beauty standard and make people, like, really want to look like something they can't look like? She was like, it feels so powerful. I love it.
- [98:56]
Emily Kirkpatrick
No doubt. It is powerful.
- [98:57]
Jessica Defino
I guess I respect. I guess I respect.
- [98:59]
Emily Kirkpatrick
I mean, she did. It is powerful for sure.
- [99:03]
Jessica Defino
All right, well. Well, if you made it through, thanks for listening. Like, subscribe review on Apple Podcasts and. Yeah, we'll see you next month.
- [99:15]
Emily Kirkpatrick
We'll see you here next month. I'll have blondie cookie with brownie chunks for hair. Don't judge me.
- [99:21]
Jessica Defino
Bye.
- [99:21]
Emily Kirkpatrick
Bye, guys.