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- [00:16]
A
Hello and welcome to Mess World, a podcast dedicated to discussing the highs and lows of pop culture every month. I'm Jessica Defino and I write the newsletter Flesh World.
- [00:26]
B
And I'm Emily Kirkpatrick and I write the newsletter I heart Mess, and this is our second take because my whole day has been a small comedy of errors.
- [00:34]
A
I know we've already said hello so many times.
- [00:39]
B
Just. It just feels fitting after the morning I've had at. At the DMV and. And not being able to return things to Sephora. I don't know, it just tracks to.
- [00:46]
A
Me that of course your Internet would be out.
- [00:50]
B
Yeah. And that we would just have one endless stream of recording.
- [00:54]
A
She just. I also kind of forgot that we're doing visuals now. You know, I forgot that we're on camera now, so maybe this second go will be better and I'll remember like, oh, I'm. I'm being perceived. I'm like, what I'm really going to try to do is not take as many sips. I feel like I was drinking a variety of beverages on the last.
- [01:15]
B
I think that's good.
- [01:16]
A
I was like, oh, this is distracting.
- [01:17]
B
No, I think that's good. It breaks up the monotony of us talking, you know, because they're like, oh, what's she drinking? What's this sip?
- [01:23]
A
A Diet Coke sponsorship.
- [01:25]
B
Love one. Would honestly love one.
- [01:28]
A
They just actually collaborated with Tarte, the beauty brand.
- [01:32]
B
So we have a chance.
- [01:34]
A
We have a chance.
- [01:36]
B
I. I will say, though, I guess this will is a strike against us to get a. A DC sponsorship, but I will say I always crave a Diet Coke. Take three sips and I'm like. And it's satis. And I'm done. It's wow, really Satisfied. Yeah. And then I'm like, and now it tastes gross and weird and I don't want it. I just wanted. I don't know, there's something about the first couple sips of like ice cold Diet Coke in a can. Not sponsored.
- [01:58]
A
All the sips are good to me. All the sips are good to me. I've been hooked on Diet Coke since I was a little baby.
- [02:04]
B
Yeah, me too.
- [02:06]
A
We have not yet, as of recording, met up to discuss Mid Cult and Mass Cult with the lowbrow Book club. But by the time this episode comes out, we will have. So, yes, we're doing a lot of talking this week. We're doing a lot of yapping about a lot of theory.
- [02:23]
B
Well, we are. We already have been doing a lot of yapping. We Were on Substack Live, too, yapping it up about. About the skims bush, which we'll yap it up about again today, undoubtedly in.
- [02:33]
A
Totally different and exciting ways. For those who have already listened to our first Skims Bush, you know, audio essay.
- [02:42]
B
Yeah, but I don't know if we said our. We're going to be talking about mass cult and mid cult at our. At our book club. Not our first book club. Our second book club.
- [02:49]
A
Our second book club.
- [02:51]
B
And I'm very excited about it. I can't wait to talk to everyone about how they feel about McDonald and his thoughts and what high culture is. Yeah, it's exciting. And also how Distinction, I think, complicates all of that.
- [03:08]
A
I still have to read Distinction. I know I have attempted before, and I feel it's so dense, and so I've been putting it off, but gonna read it. I'm gonna read it.
- [03:16]
B
It is so dense, but it feels almost like reading a different language. Like. Like, if you can get into the rhythm of it and you stop trying to, like, translate it into English. You know what I'm saying? It's like suddenly you're like, okay, no, I do. I get, like, the rhythm of this. I get the feel of this. And what he's saying is right. But, yeah, sometimes there are certain sentences that I stopped on and I was like, oh, I have to go think about this for, like, 20 minutes.
- [03:38]
A
Or, like, read it over three to four times to be like, okay, okay, I see where you're going with that.
- [03:43]
B
And that's literally the intro. It's literally seven pages.
- [03:47]
A
I know. I ordered the full book and it's, like, very wide. I'm like, oh, I'm never going to read this whole book.
- [03:54]
B
My laptop is currently sitting on it because it's that type of book. You know what I mean? Looks great on the shelf, though.
- [04:01]
A
It does. I gotta say, I love the aesthetic of Distinction.
- [04:08]
B
One day I'll read two pages of it.
- [04:10]
A
Should we get started with our little. With our little Kardashian intro? Yeah, Everyone hates when we talk about the Kardashians, but we gotta sometimes suck it, you know? And like you pointed out, the first time we tried to record this is really more about Emily than the Kardashians. And we love to talk about Emily.
- [04:28]
B
And that's what you should remember. Every time I'm talking really is. It's about me. It's not really about the topic I'm discussing, but this one really is about me. Basically, I just want to talk about why Are the Kardashians so stalking me? Why are they obsessed with me?
- [04:41]
A
Who wouldn't be obsessed with you? But I guess they're watching.
- [04:44]
B
They're. If does feel like they're watching and I really wish they would watch and, and cut me a check at the same time, you know, yeah, they can do it all, but. Yeah, I don't know. I, I joke a lot about the Kardashians watching me, but sometimes it gets a little spooky. And also I think I need to put it in, into context for people because I'm, I'm not just talking about what I'm doing at mess and the Kardashians being observant about what I'm saying there, but the Kardashians and I actually, whether they know it or not, do have like a very long track record of kind of like a digital dialogue with one another. I think maybe I've said this on the pod in a past episode.
- [05:21]
A
I think so.
- [05:22]
B
But just from the nature of like the types of jobs that I've had in my life, it's like they're all pretty high profile tabloids that cover the Kardashians obsessively. And so I was always writing the stories. And so the Kardashians I know, were reading them because it was like People magazine. And so, you know, it's the Daily Mail, it's Page Six, right? So it's like, I do know that it's like in their media diet and in their orbit. And I know they don't know me, but they were reading my work and they were often responding to it. I was thinking about this last night and I was reminded that when I worked at People magazine, one of my, one of my most hated jobs was we would have to write about hair changes. So, like, oh, yes, it's truly the bane of my existence. I think I've said this before too. Like, every time you get a celebrity would get a trim or a dye job or any, or a wig or a, especially a wig, I would have to write a whole blog post about like, wow, like, it's different. They're doing it. And so I worked there in like 2015, 2016, 2017. And so 2016, we're talking about like the height of King Kylie. Like she was changing her hair color literally every day. And literally every day I was having to write a story about it. And so I convinced my bosses at one point to just let me, let me make a gallery of every single hair color that she'd had. So I would Just have to update the gallery every day and, like, write a new cap. It's. Thank you. I did a lot of that type of work at that job. Work smarter, not harder, you know? But so basically, I created this gallery of all of Kylie's hair changes, and I put them in rainbow order for my own sanity so I could slot things in. And then I started notice after it was published that she started wearing hair colors that I didn't already have and that, like, fit perfectly into, like. Like, open gaps. Like, I was like, oh, I need a. A hot. Like, a neon green. And then the next day, she would, like, wear a neon green. I was like, oh, perfect. That just goes right in there. And I was like, I feel like she. Again, all speculation.
- [07:17]
A
It's just your little puppet.
- [07:18]
B
It really did feel like she was, like, checking it to be like, oh, have I done this yet? Oh, I'll do that color. I don't know. Anyway, there's a lot of those types of moments with that family. I. At my live show the last year, I guess that was last year, I talked about Kanye, and I have a similar thing. Unfortunately, we've really been in communication from afar. Anyway, so this week was just a particularly bad. I mean, bad in a good way, I guess, because they're doing everything I'm telling them to do, but they're just doing it all wrong is kind of my problem.
- [07:49]
A
Yes.
- [07:50]
B
And of course, this started. I mean, was it the beginning. End of last month maybe, or the beginning of this month when the face shapewear came out? And basically, I. I just told Kim, like, why aren't you wearing this? Why aren't you modeling this first? You know, like, it just doesn't make sense to me, especially. We'll talk about the Bush song too. But it doesn't make sense to me not to get the PR boost that she absolutely needs from this product by debuting it first, letting people speculate, letting all these, like, narratives, conspiracy theories run wild, Right. And then coming out with the product, and then it's selling like that, to me, is the correct order. And she's never doing it completely. So anyway, I told her to wear the shapewear, and literally the next week, she was wearing the shapewear. So I was like, too late, too.
- [08:30]
A
Little too late, Kim.
- [08:31]
B
Too little, too late. Always. I mean, that's the story between me and her is it's always too late. And that's the case with this Bush thong as well. You know, I've been saying since 2023, get a merkin.
- [08:43]
A
Yes.
- [08:44]
B
Now here it is you've been the.
- [08:47]
A
Merkin's most fervent supporter for many years.
- [08:49]
B
It feels like we could have saved a lot of time. And then likewise, over the weekend, she wore a full Runway look from Maison Margiela, the new Glenn Martin's collection. And she wore the complete face mask, which again, I have been telling her to do. I don't know, when was that? 2023, when she wore.
- [09:06]
A
She did do a full face mask a couple of years ago at something.
- [09:11]
B
Maybe because she did the Met Gal with in Balenciaga. And around that time was also around the time of her divorce and through kind of the final era of Kanye Creative directing her. She did this series that was linked to the Met Gala look of like a series of really high fashion Balenciaga looks with full, like leather face masks or full blackout face masks. And I was like, I was all about it. I am still all about it. It's brilliant. And it, I mean, again, this most recent example, she did it wrong. But I do think there's something about. I don't know, I talked about this at length when it was. When she did it at the Met Gala. But there's something about being the most famous woman on Earth and like proving it in that way where it's no one can see your face and everyone knows exactly who you are. And also, I mean, what's brilliant about the Met Gala one is it's a blackout curtain. And so she's also presenting herself as who she truly is, which is like this void, this projection, a blank canvas, like anything for like the American public to project their fantasies upon. And that is who she really. And that's what makes it brilliant. And I know she doesn't know that.
- [10:19]
A
No, I don't think she's thinking of that. I think it's also kind of an interesting way to think about like, the value of a person versus the value of their image. And for her to kind of play with that too, or even just like a symbol of the person, because we don't necessarily know it's Kim Kardashian under these masks. And I can see like a very sort of dystopian sci fi pipeline where these like full body masks and coverings are the first step. And eventually it's like, oh, you have like your simulation or your hologram or your like Tesla robot that looks like you going to events as you or something.
- [10:55]
B
Absolutely.
- [10:56]
A
And like the, the decline in aura as, as Benjamin would say.
- [11:01]
B
And then almost like an inversion of aura, like it's absorbing everything around it instead of projecting anything out to the people consuming it. I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed with this idea. I think, I truly think of it all the time.
- [11:12]
A
Should we talk about the Kylie Lipkit outfit as in relation to this?
- [11:18]
B
That's what I was also going to say is this is a family that's also like obsessed with its own iconography and like insisting upon its own iconography and celebrity. I mean, I talked about this. I just wrote an essay for Slate about King Kylie.
- [11:29]
A
So good.
- [11:29]
B
What it means to, for her. Thank you. What it means for her to like play with her own nostalgia in this way and like, like raise her former 17 year old self up on a pedestal and, and Kim does that all the time. We even see it in the way they, they wear merch with their own faces and stuff on it. Like they're hand selecting their own iconic moments for a mass audience to then consume and treat as like they're insist upon itself is what I keep saying about their fame. But it's, it's true, it's very interesting. And yeah, you see that in the Margiela mask is kind of an insistence upon the iconography of her body. Even her silhouette being enough to be like, you know, that's Kim Kardashian. I don't know. I think it's very interesting. Anyway, she did this Margiela mask over the weekend. Wrong though. It just, it was a bad look. It just didn't work. But I, but again it does, it does feel like she's picking up what I'm putting down suddenly. And then I think the final straw for me, I think I wouldn't have said anything except this is so weird. But most recently for the King Kylie thing, Kylie made a whole outfit out of her lip kits, like a, like a bandeau and a mini skirt, a matching mini skirt out of the lip pencils and the lip glosses. And not only have I said previously in the newsletter to do exactly this, exactly this, I said in the newsletter, fabricate it better. Make it look more like fabric than just like products super glued together. And she did that. And also I was reminded looking at her, her bandeau top of, of lip pencils that I've said, I've even said exactly that construction when I did the. I can't remember if it was pornhub Awards or the AVN Awards, but there was an adult film actress who wore a bunch of old ipod nanos as like a top. Do you remember what I'm talking?
- [13:20]
A
Yes, I do.
- [13:21]
B
And it looks one to one with what, Kai? I don't know. Things are getting spooky is all I'm saying. And I just. I've. I realized. I think that I am like, the way the Simpsons are to pop culture. I am to this family. We're like, there's a newsletter for everything. Like, and there's. There's some. I've predicted something about what they're doing. Always nothing they can do is new or surprises me because I've already told them to do it three years ago.
- [13:47]
A
Exactly. You've already been talking about it. There was the lip kit outfit. Makes me think of. I can't remember what the example is. I think it was somebody wore, like, a skirt made out of, like, elf lip glosses.
- [13:57]
B
So that. That's Kela. That's who I wrote about originally, who I was like, you need to fabricate this for, like, I said, literally, this is a great spong con idea. You need to fabricate the outfit out of product better.
- [14:07]
A
Yes.
- [14:07]
B
And Kylie said, bet. Watch me.
- [14:10]
A
I will do this. This is also, like, strangely, like, a mini trend elsewhere too. Like, I'm thinking of this skincare brand, Cocokind, that does lip glosses and they have started, like, custom making little, like, evening bag purses out of their lip gloss packaging for, like, customers that are not customers for influencers at their, like, press events.
- [14:33]
B
Yeah.
- [14:34]
A
So I feel like there's this weird. It's kind of like the Rhode effect, but, like, taken to the. To the extremes of what road is doing with the phone cases.
- [14:43]
B
Yes. And I think. I don't remember if we talked about at the beginning of this year or maybe like the end of last year. I guess it must have been the end of last year because I feel like it was one of my trend predictions. Where I was talking about it is part of, like, the road thing. It's also part of, like, the shelfie as selfie thing. Like, taking your products out into the world to, like, letting them be representative.
- [15:03]
A
Talking about that for years.
- [15:05]
B
That's my.
- [15:05]
A
I have been pitching. Actually, you know what? I'll call them out. I'll call them out. It's fine. I pitched a story on the self as shelf to the New York Times and they were like, I don't think this really makes any sense. And I was like, it's coming, baby. It's coming. And now the whole world is just make your body a shelf for products. So I gotta do that. I gotta. I gotta get the story out.
- [15:26]
B
Welcome to the New York Times. Doesn't understand my pitches club. I also Pitched them the dadaist, like, geometry dress trend. And they're like, we don't understand. And I was like, okay, well, just like, watch it unfold before your very eyes. Then, like, I don't know what to tell you. And so they have. And so they have. Over this year, they've watched the very thing I said just repeat itself over and over.
- [15:48]
A
I think the moral of this story is just like, give Emily money.
- [15:52]
B
Please, God, please Emily.
- [15:54]
A
For her skills.
- [15:55]
B
Please God. I just wish a cele. I mean, do celebrities know that they could pay me? Like, we could really turn it out. You guys, you need out there listening.
- [16:05]
A
Put a section on your website of like, work with me.
- [16:08]
B
Work with me. Specifically if you're an A list celebrity who doesn't know what to do with themselves. Like, if you just have too much money and you're confused how to spend it or like, what would be fun. We could figure it out together. Spend it on Emily, spend it on me, and then I could tell you some really crazy stuff you could do with it. Also. I think we could make beautiful, beautiful magic together. That's my pitch.
- [16:29]
A
Well, I want to talk about the Kim Kardashian skims ultimate bush faux pubic hair thong. A little bit more.
- [16:39]
B
You know, I'm a robot.
- [16:40]
A
There's not too much more I want to say. Of course, of course. It feels like it's so funny because it came out a week ago and it already feels like, so tired.
- [16:49]
B
Isn't that so the nature of like skims and the Kardashians, though, like, everything, the second they do it, you're like, oh, this feels incredibly dated. And I'm so sick of it. Yeah, I think that's a fascinating phenomenon of them.
- [17:02]
A
Cause it's just like saturation. Like, you get the amount of press that somebody else would get over the course of a month in like five minutes. And it's exhausting. And here we are, give. Giving them even more air time. So we're aware, we know what we're doing. But what I actually want to talk about is the European Wax Center's response to Kim Kardashian putting out these pubic hair covered thongs. Faux pubic hair covered thongs. So pretty much immediately, like the day of, day after kind of vibe, European Wax center put out this big campaign that was like super simple. And it said, we'll take it from here, Kim. Like, there were billboards, There were like digital billboards. It was on social media. And I think Kim Kardashian even reposted it. And she was like, this is the best response I've seen.
- [17:54]
B
Why? Why are you doing that?
- [17:55]
A
I know. She's. Again, we don't know, we don't know what's going on in there, but. Okay. Here's what I actually found really fascinating about the European Wax center thing. I was reading the newsletter, people, brands and things, and they interviewed the European Wax center team about this campaign. Like how they pulled it together so quickly, what the inspiration was, blah, blah, blah. And here is a quote that I just can't stop thinking about from their marketing team. They said European Wax center is all about confidence and helping people feel comfortable, bold and unapologetic in their own skin. And I just find, I mean, like, of course that's such a, you know, bland marketing line. It's a nothing burger of, you know, meaningless words. But I'm really fascinated about how they are framing the like cosmetically manipulated and waxed body as being confident and comfortable and real in the juxtaposition to this hyper real fake pubic hair thong. And I'm really interested to see what the future like as your bodies on bodies trends, as the trompe l' oeil thing continues. Are we going to start seeing even the hyper modified actual physical body feel like, oh, this is me like embracing my own skin. Even though it's like, oh, you're actually destroying your own skin completely to make it conform to a beauty ideal. Is it going to feel more like, like I guess even morally superior to manipulate your own body versus buy a hyper real version of it to apply on top of the body? You know, I don't know.
- [19:39]
B
That's very interesting. Well, it is also, it just immediately makes me think of like that is kind of already the language around like getting cosmetic surgeries of any kind. Like I'm, this is the real me. Like I'm, you know, I feel more comfortable in my skin now. Like this is, it's how I'm supposed to look. I don't know. And there's already that kind of language couched in plastic surgery that I imagine it's not, it's not that far removed, you know.
- [20:05]
A
Right. And I feel like there's a lot of like skepticism around that kind of. I mean, maybe just for me, because I have a lot to say about this exact topic later on in the pod. But I do think there's like some skepticism and some eye rolling that comes with that. But I do think as we move more toward these like hyper real detachable accessories, I wonder if, yeah, just like the Physical, manipulated body will take on even more of, like, this moral dimension. And, like, the actual unmodified body will just sort of cease to exist as, like, a possibility for us at all, you know?
- [20:43]
B
Sure. I don't think. I mean, I don't think it's that big of a stretch. To me, it feels like such a logical extension of what we're already doing. Like, to me, the merkin. Right. It's like, we already have wigs. I don't know. We already have, like, pretty widely accepted wigs. And, like, and there is a moral, there's a morality, and there's a racism to that as well, you know, like, oh, this is the preferred hair because you can control it, and it looks white and all, you know? But there is already that kind of value system embedded in the hyperreal hair that we're applying to our body. So, like, why not the pubic hair? Like, I could just see it getting all wrapped up in that of, like, it's preferable. It's cleaner to not have pubic hair and then, like, wear fake pubic. You know what I mean?
- [21:28]
A
Right.
- [21:29]
B
I can see the, like, marketing angle of it. Like, there's already so much discussed around that area and so many products telling you, like, asham named and it's dirty and whatever. I can see that being like, well, here's a way to, like, have pubic hair, but in a controlled clean. I mean, we talked about a lot on the live stream that I think skims is a lot about dominating and controlling women's bodies. And, like, I think that's a perfect, like, little encapsulation of it.
- [21:53]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then it opens the door for a place like European Wax center to be like, no, your actual pubes are totally fine and clean and healthy and will help you get rid of them. Like, you know. Right.
- [22:04]
B
To me, that's. That is Kim reposting. There's like, they are working in tandem in a weird way.
- [22:10]
A
Yeah.
- [22:10]
B
Because Kim is saying, like, you need to. In order to wear the bush thong, you do kind of have to eradicate real bush. Yeah. Like, they don't really gel together. So it's like. Great. Thank you. European Wax. Whatever. You're. You're one half of the solution. That's the other half here. Yeah. I think they're, like, in cahoots in a weird way.
- [22:31]
A
Okay. Yeah. Brilliant. Yes.
- [22:34]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [22:34]
A
That's exactly what. I solved it. We solved it. I feel at peace. I feel at peace with this observation. Should we talk a bit about fashion month?
- [22:45]
B
Oh, boy. Yeah, we can talk a bit about fashion. It was a tough fashion month, you know, to be a woman wearing clothes. I don't know, as I'm not the first to say this, there's been a lot of stories that came out of Fashion Month. They're just suggesting that it felt very anti woman out there on the Runway for a lot of different reasons. I guess I could just read a quote from Vanessa Friedman's piece in the New York Times, but she said it was a Paris fashion week that introduced clothes that hid, confined, muzzled, or even erased the women beneath. There were garments that transformed women into aliens and put them in aprons. There were styles that suggested suffering and entrapment were the cost of participation. These were looks that created an undercurrent of dystopia, despite the fact that most of the focus was on the rise of a new generation of designers. And it's like, absolutely a hundred percent that is what the designs are showing us. But I don't know, part of me reading that, I was like, is that not also, like, the undercurrent of the fashion industry at large? Like, to suggest that suffering and entrapment are the cause for participation? Like, yeah, you're talking about high fashion. Like, yeah.
- [23:55]
A
What all of this discourse about fashion hating women made me think of was just the beauty industry. Like, this is a very clear description of what beauty is and has been for, like, hundreds of years. And the same people, like, critiquing the fashion industry are very often buying into the same ideology when it's beauty. And then suddenly when you see it in fashion form, you're like, oh, that feels strange. And it's like, well, that's what we've all been doing. Well, not we all, but that's what people have been doing for a really long time to the actual body. I mean, Stella Bugby did bring this up in her comments on the the whole fashion hates women vibe of Fashion Month too. She was, like, very critical of the beauty standards and the facelifts in your 30s and the blepharoplasty and, like, the homogenization of. Of everyone's faces. So I appreciated that.
- [24:48]
B
Yes. But it is beyond that, right?
- [24:51]
A
Like, oh, yeah.
- [24:52]
B
It's just. It's crazy to me that it's like, now we're realizing it's that you're talking about. You're looking at runways where every model is a size double zero. It's like, and has always been. And. And you're talking about brands that don't make, like, inclusive sizing it's like, yeah, and there is entrapment and suffering inherent in a high fashion, in this system. It's. They've just taken it to an extreme and made it so overt through the design itself that it's like, now you have to confront it. But it is the very, like, foundation that fashion also. I was just thinking while you were talking, it's like, what is. What are trends except to, like, make you hate what you have? Right. Like, right. Is that also not kind of an entrapment in suffering? Like, you have to constantly replenish your order. You're out of trend. You look old, you look dated. Like, look old. There's this pejorative, like, attached to, like, timeliness and wealth and the lack of wealth to update it every season. And that is suffering. That is entrapment.
- [25:51]
A
Right. Well, it's interesting because it's like, now that the entrapment is so overt, it's clear that it's coming for the already thin, already white, already wealthy woman.
- [26:05]
B
That's the tipping point.
- [26:06]
A
And that is why it's like, setting people off. This is a type of entrapment that this particular type of person maybe hasn't had to confront before because they have been, you know, kind of happy within their gilded cage.
- [26:19]
B
Right, right.
- [26:19]
A
Feeling free in there. Yeah.
- [26:21]
B
And they. They were the ones being, like, represented until now, and now they're feeling alienated by the experience. It's like, right. Welcome to the world.
- [26:28]
A
Yeah. It's like, even when I'm at the height of. Of beauty and. And wealth, I. I'm still not good enough now. Wow, this is bad.
- [26:36]
B
Yes, imagine. So I guess we can see some of the examples from. From Fashion Month that have, like, set people off a little extra courage. Women's faces were, like, completely covered, which, in part was like, a statement about climate change, actually, and, like, having to protect yourself from the elements. And I do agree, though, it comes across a little. Women are being silenced and muted and bagged up in a way that's kind of unpleasant.
- [27:07]
A
This is my eternal struggle with, like, high fashion or couture is like, I love a lot of these concepts on the Runway as art pieces, as statements on the state of the world. But then once it, like, trickles down into the consumer cycle and we're setting trends of, like, what people are buying or changing their bodies to fit into or whatever. Like, any sort of, like, artistic statement kind of goes out the window, I think. But, like, if this was in a museum, for instance, I might be compelled by the face covering and like, what does that say about the state of the world today? But yeah, it kind of falls flat on a Runway.
- [27:43]
B
I totally agree. And it's like, I always have this kind of internal argument about it because it's like, like part of. It's like art can't really exist in this type of commerce. You know what I mean? So, like, any kind of like, artistic gesture from a designer today because of just the nature of how fashion is, like, I don't think it can ever really come across in the way it's intended, you know, because, like, the Runway is like, see now, by now there is. It is a one to one relationship in a way that it really wasn't in the past. Like, nobody went to an Alexander McQueen show thinking, I'm going to buy. Exactly. Well, some people did and Isabella Blow did maybe. But like, by and large, the mass consumers didn't think, like, oh, I'm going to buy that straight up the Runway. So he was allowed to do this kind of like, like art installation, like a whole artistic performance in a way that could be completely divorced from what ultimately ended up in stores. And you don't really have that, so it kind of negates the art. But then on the other hand, I'm like, or are these people just bad artists?
- [28:45]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:46]
B
You know, like, and that doesn't mean they're bad designers even. Like, I think you could be an incredible fashion designer and be a bad artist.
- [28:53]
A
That is so Dwight McDonald too, because I'm thinking about his definitions, like high culture and mass cult and like, talent really doesn't enter in there. You can be a high culture artist and, like, actually be bad at what you're doing.
- [29:07]
B
Yeah. And I. So I feel like we're. We are kind of just living through a bunch of people who are like, good designers or good designers for this present moment. But maybe bad artists or certainly artists. I mean, bad artists in the sense they don't seem to be, like, thinking through any of the ideas they're presenting or, like, thinking about the larger ramifications or, like, what it means or what the takeaway is or what their intention is, even. And I mean, I, I've already brought this up, but no one, to me, that's more clear than, than Duran Lantank's debut at Jean Paul Gaultier, I thought was just like, throwing shit at the wall and seeing, like, what would go viral and what would stick and, like, what would make him. He's obsessed with being like the enfanterie of, of fashion. And it's like, you're just kind of being a douche. Like, you're not. I don't know. Alfonserie, to me is like, you're doing something subversive and cool, and you're making a statement, and you're going against the status quo. And to me, he's just feeding into the status quo. And the fact that he doesn't have a larger message, like, is the fucking problem. Like, you're doing such, like, provocative.
- [30:12]
A
It's like, rage, bait design.
- [30:14]
B
It's rage bait design for sure. And it. Man. Does it make me rage? Not in a good way.
- [30:19]
A
They got you.
- [30:20]
B
I'm like, the audience, though, is what I keep thinking of Duran. I'm like, I'm actually the gal for you. Like, I think this kind of shit's cool, but you just are, like, so void of any sort of, like, meaning. I wrote down this quote from him because I just thought it was so insane. Where after the. His Jean Paul Gaultier debut, he says, I don't want to get political because it's a dangerous thing to do nowadays. What the fuck are you talking about?
- [30:41]
A
Really?
- [30:42]
B
The whole collection you just showed is political. How can you put. How can you gender swap nude bodies on the Runway and say, there's nothing political about this? I'm not trying to make any sort of statement. Don't want to get canceled.
- [30:55]
A
I'm actually shocked by that quote, knowing what the designs behind that statement are.
- [31:01]
B
Flabbergasted by it. I was like, what are you doing then? Like, what is the point of your work, then, except to, like, make. Make people's bodies punchlines? And I just think that's insane in any context, and particularly insane in this context. Yeah, he pisses me off, man. Anyway, so that was my big upset. I was right on board with everyone on that one. Another one people didn't like was at Alaia. There were these jumpsuits that had no arms.
- [31:30]
A
Very funny.
- [31:31]
B
It was very. What is that game? Is it despicable? No, not despicable. Me. What's the one where they're like. They hide from each other? It's like a very popular children's video game. Among us. It's Among Us. The little among us figures. That's exactly what these Aliyah jumpsuits look like. If people haven't seen that, I have to look that up. Just armless. Just two little legs sticking out of, like, a tube body. Anyway, these jumpsuits are so funny. I cannot stress enough how funny they are. They are absurd, of course.
- [32:02]
A
They're very Absurd.
- [32:03]
B
You very much need your arms. I hate to tell everyone.
- [32:05]
A
Like, I. I feel actually like Kim Kardashian could walk out in this next week.
- [32:10]
B
Well, that is my one exception to this moment is, like, I do absolutely want to see someone famous in this jumpsuit. So I don't want to. Not too much on the jumpsuit, you know, because I do want to see it in real life. Cause I think it's so funny to be armless like that in. But, like, just to make yourself. Make everything a little bit harder for yourself. I think it's a fun thing that fashion does to very rich and famous people often. And I like to say see it. But in terms of being a pro woman garment.
- [32:39]
A
Yeah.
- [32:40]
B
Which also, there's something wrong with even saying that, like, there can be anti women garments and pro woman garments.
- [32:45]
A
I'm already like, even the framing of, like, fashion hates women in a lot of these contexts too. I'm like, it feels like anti people in general. Like, I know there are some specifically, like, woman centric designs here. Um, but, like, the Gaultier stuff feels strange for all genders. The Margiela mouth guards, like, they're. That was, you know, people of all genders on the Runway.
- [33:12]
B
There's some real equal opportunity.
- [33:15]
A
Yeah.
- [33:15]
B
Hating going on. Yeah.
- [33:16]
A
Yeah.
- [33:16]
B
It's not limited. I think people are just saying anti women because this is technically women's wear month. You know what I mean? Like, so they're couching it as, this is all for women, but obviously it's not just for women. It's for all genders. But. And there were also other people on the Runway, not just women.
- [33:30]
A
I had posted something about the Margiela mouth guards.
- [33:33]
B
Yeah, it's something, huh?
- [33:35]
A
And somebody responded to it being like, men also wore these. This is not anti woman. I was like, okay. I was just reporting the feedback. I wasn't saying that, but okay, I get your point.
- [33:48]
B
Also, just very. Not all men of them. It's like, yeah, okay, we're all suffering from the Margiela mouth guards that were on the Runway. Like, what. What do you. What point are you making? Okay.
- [33:58]
A
Right, exactly. Well, what was so funny to me about the Margiela mouth in particular was, you know, it was these mouth guards that, like, held models mouths open so they looked like they were held open by the four stitches that Margiela uses. So it was branding. It was like a branding moment. Like, this is the brand's logo sort of on your face, and people were so put off by this. And I'm like, really? Because you are buying logoed under eye masks and pimple patches in droves. Like, you are turning your face into billboard space constantly. And to me, this reads as, like, almost no different than that. And I would love to see some of the hype from Margiela Mount get translated to the beauty industry.
- [34:45]
B
Yeah, that's a very good point. Also, that Margiela mouth. I'm not going to be able to think of the designer's name off the top of my head, but it's actually. It's been done before. That was actually kind of a copy of another. Maybe it was Balmain who did something similar. I really can't remember off the top of my head, but there was another big designer who did something very similar with, like, kind of exposing, like, mouth cards that hold your mouths open like that. And obviously this one's different because it's based on the Margiela logo, but it's not that different. I saw someone online compare them to the Clockwork Orange, like, the eyeball things, the way they hold them up and to force them. And again, at least with the Margiela mouthguards, again, it's like there's something, to me, at least a little more artistic happening there. Like, there is kind of something about the forced smile, grimace, like the. I don't know, there's something to it where I'm like, it's a little bit more than just like, pain and suffering purely.
- [35:43]
A
Yeah. I actually just wrote about that on my newsletter today, quoting a piece that P.E. moskowitz wrote about this kind of this moment, and they related it to Disney adults and just sort of like, as the world gets bleaker and harder and harder to deal with, our, like, smiles are forced bigger and bigger through these sort of infantilized things. And I was like, oh, my God, this is so Margiela mouth.
- [36:06]
B
Yeah, it's also very. What was that horror movie smile? Yeah, it's very that.
- [36:13]
A
It's the Joker.
- [36:14]
B
Yeah, it's the Joker. Totally. Wow. And then I guess just the last on the design front that people kind of took offense was. Was at Miu Miu, um, she, Musha Prada showed a lot of aprons. Just aprons.
- [36:30]
A
This one. I don't know. I don't know. I struggle with whether I think this is, like, horrible statement for women or not.
- [36:38]
B
Totally. And it is. It's very complicated, I think, because of who Musha Prada is as a designer. I mean, I get. I get coming into the Miu Miu show not kind of knowing about her or her design. Ethos or, like, what she's done at Prada and Mew. Mew and being like, hey, like, kind of weird to make all these, like, aprons at a time of, like, tradwifery, you know what I mean? Like, kind of a weird vibe. But the thing with Musha is she's always been, like, incredibly interested in daily uniforms and, like, kind of. I mean, this is classic high fashion stuff, but always kind of the. She's interested in the everyday workman, like, lower class, working class, blue collar. Like, you know, she's interested in taking those uniforms and elevating them to really high heights, which is a classic fashion formula. But she happens to be, like, particularly good at.
- [37:32]
A
Yes.
- [37:32]
B
And so to me, seeing these aprons, I was like, right. That's right in line with what the type of stuff she's interested in.
- [37:39]
A
Yeah.
- [37:39]
B
And also, there's a practicality to it too, and she's very interested in, like, high fashion with, like, a practical bent to it, I think.
- [37:47]
A
Yeah. I do think the context of knowing it was Prada and knowing it was designed by Mucha made me be like, okay, I'm not gonna see this as, like, a huge trad wife champion moment.
- [37:59]
B
Yeah. And I guess she said after the show that the purpose of them is that she was interested in the real difficult life of women in history, from factories to the home.
- [38:08]
A
Okay.
- [38:09]
B
I don't know. And also, I feel like I'm generally more favorable to it because it is, like, a women talking about, like, a women's work.
- [38:16]
A
Right. As opposed to a male designer, like, constraining the body.
- [38:20]
B
Yes. And it seems more interesting to me that she would be, like, grappling with, like, women's labor in the home and her own labor, and I don't know. That just seems like a richer text to me than putting someone in a tube sock and sending them down the Runway. You know what I mean? And then, of course, everyone was incredibly thin and incredibly white.
- [38:38]
A
Yes.
- [38:39]
B
Should be a surprise to know we've been on that trajectory since the day we stepped a single foot off that trajectory. From the days we started, like, reporting the diversity counts, I feel like we started backtracking on. On the diversity, both in race and body, completely on the Runway. So I was not surprised by that. But I think. I don't know, it seemed to really strike home for a lot of critics suddenly.
- [39:03]
A
Yeah, that.
- [39:03]
B
That's true. I mean, maybe just because it's been pushed to the extreme because of, like, the ozempic of it all and. And brands really feeling like they can kind of, you know, in a Trump 2.0 era. Also, I think, like, being anti woke is, like, cool, like, not succumbing to the mobs who, like, want you to have diversity. I don't know. I think that's like, a weird bragging.
- [39:24]
A
I mean, I also think it's, again, worth pointing out that the CEO of LVMH stood behind Trump on Inauguration Day. Like, you know.
- [39:33]
B
You know, yeah, they're good pals. They're best. Best of buds. They've really been supporting one another in a psychotic way that I find it weird how little people talk about that, that the Arnaults are, like, so deeply in bed with the. With Trump.
- [39:48]
A
Yeah, yeah. So there's probably, like, less pressure to have, like, a diverse and inclusive for sure. Show for the sake. There's no pressure press, you know. Yeah, yeah, there's.
- [40:00]
B
There's absolutely no pressure on that front. And yeah, I also just thought it was interesting in light of kind of what I've been talking about for a little bit now about, like, you know, some of these historical Dior references coming back under Jonathan Anderson and kind of like what it means to be referencing both Christian Dior, what he was doing in the 40s and 50s, and of course, which is a reference to the Victorian times. And I don't know that I. That also is quite anti woman, actually, when you look into, like, what Dior was up to. He really didn't like women that much, or he didn't like us, like, moving about and, like, having jobs and, like, voting and stuff.
- [40:38]
A
It's like, I love women when they're in their place.
- [40:40]
B
Yeah, exactly. When they're all corseted up and they can't bend over, then I love a woman. And there's a quote that I. I've used in my essays before that I really love. That's from Coco Chanel. Maybe the only good thing from Coco Chanel. But she said that Dior doesn't dress women, he upholsters them. And I don't know, I think that's also just a good kind of summation of, like, what seems to be happening on the runways right now as we're getting upholstered into fashion.
- [41:08]
A
I do love that.
- [41:09]
B
Yeah. And all that said Grace Wells Bonner just got appointed to Hermes, and I think nothing could be better in this world than her designing menswear at Hermes. It's gonna be absolutely. It's gonna be like Margiela at Hermes levels of, like, iconic, I think. So I'm looking forward to that same. Oh, and then. Excuse me, I have to go right into my next. The clown couture is here, everyone. It's coming. Or at least, you know, as always, I'm. I hope it's coming. And I'm. I'm egging it on all of my people.
- [41:38]
A
I think it is coming, and I think it's. It's happening in, in the beauty world too. But I'll save that for.
- [41:43]
B
I do think it's having. In the beauty world too. And I also just think, like, clown couture seems very a fitting corollary to everything we just talked about, about, like, women being the punchline of this, of this joke of fashion month. It's like, okay, then let us be the clowns, you know, like, let us look like the jokes that the industry is trying to turn us into. So I, I started talking about this, like, maybe a year ago because I've been obsessed with Sarah Sherman on snl. The way that she dresses, I just think is so cool. And it's so, like, singularly her. And she's been dressing like that even before she was on snl. Now it just seems like she has the money to like, really ball out on it in, like, a pretty fabulous way. But it is. I don't know how else to explain except kind of like clout, like a, like, really glamorous high fashion clown where, like, really vibrant, loud prints, like really loud saturated primary colors and stuff and like, a lot of polka dots and. Yeah, I love it. And her stylist is Dot Bass, who I also realized Dopass is like the stylist of kind of like all of the. My favorites of my newsletter.
- [42:48]
A
Really?
- [42:48]
B
Yeah. They also dress Rebecca Black, who I cite all the time, and they dress Jinx Monsoon. I just found out. I love. I love Jinx. And I don't know, I was just like, oh, damn, I gotta get into their work deeper. So, yeah, I'm just very excited about that. And then what made me think, like, maybe it's trickling beyond Sarah Sherman this month is that Jonathan Anderson at Dior, he keeps doing these. I ask my followers if there's like, a technical. Because I have no formal design background, I don't know the words of any it drives. It's like the number one most annoying thing to me in the world that I have no vocabulary for, like, design elements or construction. That's why I make up, like, weird things, is because I literally don't know what to call them.
- [43:30]
A
Like, what is that?
- [43:31]
B
Yeah. And so I was asking my followers who are like, half of them are like design professionals. I was like, is there like a technical word for, like, what Jonathan Anderson is doing with these? Basically, he makes big, like, loops of fabric, like a ton of them, and like, that piles them together into kind of this voluminous, fluffy thing. The first we've seen this in, through all of his work. He did it at J.W. anderson. He did it Loewe. And then when he kind of was doing his early debuts of his womenswear work, he put Anya Taylor Joy, which is like one of his constant muses, in this dress. That the whole skirt was kind of these big loops of fabric. And I asked my followers, what, what are these? What's going on? And they said that they. It's like a style thing that was incredibly popular in the 17th century Europe, weirdly, and that she said that they may have been called fancies, which I think is very fun. And I do, I do think we should just call them fancies. So we had that dress from Anya Teller Joy. And then was it this week or last week? I don't remember. I think maybe last week we had Natalie Portman in basically the sweatshirt version of this dress, where it's just a gray, boring sweatshirt.
- [44:37]
A
Oh, yes, I saw this.
- [44:38]
B
But the whole neckline was these fancies, these loops of fabric in a way that was like, incredibly clownish to me. But like the most depressing, like, norm clown, drab, gray, drab clown you've ever. And that also is, like, incredibly compelling to me. Like, just.
- [44:54]
A
I know, like we robbed the, the clowns of their joy.
- [44:57]
B
Yes. Like, he's just so unbelievably depressed. Like, all he can do is put on his little clown sweatshirt in, like, the sad gray stains, you know, like, he's just schlubbing around the house. He can't even juggle. Yeah, yeah. He can't even honk his little nose. He's so sad. Anyway, so I've just, I've been. I've been obsessed with that. And I. I would love to see more clowns out there, even depressed ones. And, well, what I'm really hoping it's all angling to is I want to go full Elisa Elizabethan ruffs. I want like full, stiff, pointed collars, even to the point of, like, dog cones. You know, when dogs get, like, fixed and they have to wear that. Yes. Wouldn't that be fun?
- [45:34]
A
I can see this. I can see this. And I love this.
- [45:36]
B
And also on. Oh, my God, this just occurred to me. But if you did wear a dog Comb, because they're see through. You could fill it up with stuff. You get what I'm saying? Yeah, it's like a brand new purse. You could just toss stuff in there. Or you could put all your beauty products. All your beauty products. You could put some popcorn in there, have a snack later. Put a diet Coke in there.
- [45:57]
A
I would love to. That's so funny. No, I love it. I think we're. I mean, the blush blindness thing, I believe very clown was a manifestation of clown makeup, which I like to call Pagliacci core. Yeah, we saw it on the Marc Jacobs Runway last year. He had these like big pink splotches of blush. Very clown esque. And then something that I remember from a couple months ago, maybe Magdalene J. Taylor, who writes the newsletter Many such cases, wrote a little report on the increase in women with pictures of themselves in clown paint on their dating profiles. Like as a little joke of like, I'm the clown in this situation. Because dating is so, so ridiculous. And that's a very. And yet, and yet I'm here.
- [46:47]
B
I love.
- [46:47]
A
So I do think this trend has, has legs also.
- [46:50]
B
You just reminded me we've been, we've had Julia Fox like whiting out her face at like every event that she's gone to recently. All she's part of it is like very like Juan Victorian ghost. Glam.
- [47:05]
A
Yes.
- [47:06]
B
And I hate her glam. But I will say I am, I am interested in a white out fate. It's very. Also something I've long wanted to trend. It's very Insane Clown Posse as well.
- [47:15]
A
Oh yeah, you've. You've talked about this before.
- [47:18]
B
I love them. I love the way they dress. I love the makeup. I love the whole bit.
- [47:22]
A
Actually, I was a, I was a clown for Halloween last year. I just did like chic little clown diamond eye.
- [47:29]
B
Ahead of the curve as always.
- [47:30]
A
I know I might. Maybe I'll do it again this year. Who knows?
- [47:33]
B
I'm very stressed about my Halloween costume, by the way. I have no thoughts. And last year I thought everyone was gonna. This is such an aside. This is not important to anyone listening, but it's important to me. Last year I really thought I nailed it. So good. And absolutely no one knew that I was JoJo Siwa.
- [47:49]
A
Wait, I was just gonna say you were JoJo Siwa. And I thought of you when I saw pictures of the Louvre heist because they were wearing those construction vests and I was like, oh my God. Jojo Siwak. Holy.
- [48:00]
B
It was me. I was the jewel thief.
- [48:05]
A
I thought of you immediately.
- [48:07]
B
My vest was rhinestone, so you would have known it was me immediately. Yeah. No one knew who I was or even who JoJo Siwa was. And so it was a very humbling evening for me. And I realized that I'm online in a way no adults my age are online. And yeah, it was very.
- [48:23]
A
I wish you had cards to pass out a link to this podcast to everyone who didn't know who you were because they need to be listening.
- [48:31]
B
I literally had a video of JoJo Siwa dancing the way that she danced. It pulled up on my phone so I could show it to people so they could understand what I was doing because I tried to show. This is so embarrassing. I tried to show them the dance even, because I was like, surely you've seen the meme of the iconic dance that she does. And they were like, no, we haven't seen any of the things that you're doing. And I was like, no worries.
- [48:54]
A
Like, that makes me sad for them, it makes me sad for Jojo, and it makes me sad for you.
- [48:59]
B
Violently vibrating alone in a party, trying to explain to grown adults who I am. It was a really good costume, though. In literally any other crowd, I feel like I would have killed, unfortunately. Yeah. So anyway, I have no costume this year and I don't know what to do.
- [49:17]
A
Let's be clowns. Okay, I'm just gonna do it again. Some more clownish behavior. No offense. We have to talk. I have to talk about the story that came out in the cut earlier this month called why I got a necklift at 41. And it's an as told to story. And the story is from a pretty well known esthetician, Sophie Pavitt. She has a skincare brand called Sophie Pavitt face. She is Lorde's esthetician. She works with celebrities. And so there was this big story where she came out and had cosmetic transparency and was telling everyone, I got a necklift at 41 and also a blepharoplasty. And is she.
- [50:02]
B
Sorry, is she 41 now? Is this like a current thing or is she, like, looking back at, like, when I turned. It doesn't matter.
- [50:09]
A
She's somewhere around 41. I think the story said, like, I got this done over a year ago.
- [50:14]
B
Okay. I was just curious, like, how recent the experience was.
- [50:17]
A
I guess it's pretty recent, but. Okay. So the story is just kind of like this. A bizarre reading experience for me. Did you read it? I don't know if you saw it.
- [50:25]
B
No, I saw the headline.
- [50:26]
A
Let me tell You.
- [50:27]
B
I'm good, actually.
- [50:29]
A
So it has like, you know, what is now a typical, if absurd, mashup of ideologies, where in one sentence it's like, aging is a privilege. I know this. I know that. I'm so lucky to get old. And then the next sentence is detailing all the ways in which she is reversing the look of aging with like a necklift and a blepharoplasty. Specifically, she talks about how she's had two kids and post baby, she just didn't feel like she looked like herself and she wanted to look like the way she did before. And so. Okay, I have so much to say there, but I want to read this passage from the book Intact by Claire Chambers, because that's immediately what I thought of. So Claire Chambers writes in her book, the very idea of this suggests that there was one moment when you had the body that was really authentically, naturally yours. On this understanding, our real bodies are not the saggy, stretchy, lumpy, wrinkly ones that somehow we find ourselves in. When people try to get their bodies back, they are usually aiming for the post pubescent body that exists for perhaps 10 or 20 of the average 83 years of life. Somehow that minority body becomes not just the ideal body, but the authentic body. And I just, like, wish that we could get more of this kind of thought going in mainstream beauty, because I feel like when we don't have any pushback in these, like, as told to type stories, it's so easy for the messages to become, like, do whatever you want and you're doing it for you. And we're just, like, not thinking about the ways in which that is not.
- [52:06]
B
True at the very least, like, why is there no, I mean, why is there no, like, balance in these types of stories being told? Like, okay, if you have to tell this story about feeling not like yourself and getting a necklift of 41, like, where is the story about, like, the intact perspective of, like, I don't know, like, where's the. Just kind of the balance in media coverage? And also, I will say, as someone who's never read Intact, but you've definitely quoted it before in your newsletter. It like, it's rocked my world. Like, I do bring up these quotes all the time when my friends are talking about, like, stuff they want to get done or, like, fixed or whatever. Because there's another quote you you've used before in your newsletter. It's something about, like, like, our appearance is like, one of the only things where we Wish we were 21 again. Like, there's nothing else about being 21 that you're so obsessed with or, like, want to get back to, like, literally. Everyone agrees, like, I am so much, like, better, happier, smarter, more interesting, wiser every single year of my life. Except, like, in my appearance. My appearance is the one fatal flaw that, like, my 21 was the ultimate, perfect version of myself completely.
- [53:12]
A
And then it's like, you sacrifice these years where you feel the most powerful and the most yourself. Like, you sacrifice all of your resources, your time, your money, your energy, your effort, your headspace to just, like, making the physical match how good you feel. And it's also, like, it's just very obviously, to me, like, a capitalist psyop. Like, if the real you is the you from the past or the you from the future where you're like, oh, I'm gonna lose 10 pounds and then I'm gonna go to the beach or something, the current you is the false you. And then must conveniently always engage in constant consumption of beauty products and procedures in order to be the authentic self. And it's just like, that makes no sense. Okay, but here's what I really wanna get into about this story. There is a whole section in which Sophie Pavitt says, I am doing this for me and me only. I'm sure there'll be critics out there who say I'm doing it for the male gaze or because of a certain beauty standard, and I'm not. This is just for me because this is just the way that I want to look. And I just feel like that's. I don't know, maybe I'm just being too dramatic, but I feel like that's such an irresponsible thought to publish in a magazine like New York Magazine without any editorial, like, context or post push back. Like, I did write about this part in my newsletter already, so I won't get into it too much. But I'm just like, if you're 41 years old and you, like, really, truly believe that desire, the desire to, like, saw off a chunk of your neck skin and sew the rest on tighter, just, like, a pure desire from your, like, unblemished soul, like, where do we even go from here?
- [54:51]
B
Like, but it's just. It's just a crazy thing to me to say in any. Like, to think that any of the choices that we make about aesthetics or acquisitions, you know, like, that those are. That those could ever just purely come from those, like. Those aren't formations of culture.
- [55:08]
A
No choice comes from a pure unadulterated soul.
- [55:11]
B
We are. That's what I'm saying.
- [55:12]
A
Everything we want and desire is in response to the world around us and the people around us and the culture we're.
- [55:19]
B
And also, like capitalism, like, you can't live in a capitalist system and, and think that any of choices are purely your own and aren't being influenced by, like, what you're told is moral or good or bad or covetable or trendy or.
- [55:33]
A
I know.
- [55:33]
B
It's like, no matter what you think you're doing it for, you are a person in the world being impacted by systems that are operating upon you.
- [55:43]
A
Yes. I think the phrase like, I do it for me has, like, has really ruined the world at most. And the feminist movement, at least.
- [55:52]
B
It just doesn't mean anything.
- [55:54]
A
You know, read some Gerard read, Laura Mulvey read.
- [56:00]
B
But even it's like, John Berger, like, how do you not think, like, every choice you make is impacted by a million other choices and a million other things you've consumed in your life and the context in which you were raised and everything. Like, how do you. How can you ever ignore all that and say, like, oh, I just do this because I, I like it. I like what I like as a capitalist lot, you know, as, as, as.
- [56:19]
A
Tressie McMillan Cottage, as Tressie would say, and as I quote incessantly, because it's so true. It's just crazy. That's not even the end of my little rant. Okay, okay, so my other, My other problem with how this was presented in the story was Sophie Pavitt shared it on Instagram. And in her Instagram, the caption was, I got a neck lift over a year ago and nobody noticed because the work was so good, all caps and like, this is not the point, but we noticed. Like, I follow Sophie Pavitt and I could tell she did something. She's noticeably tighter. It wasn't not noticeable. And like, it's a fine thing to notice that because you did do something, you did it to get noticed, and it's noticeable. And even if you don't think you did it to get noticed, like, you did something and there is a. A reaction to your actions, and the reaction is that you look tighter and it's noticeable.
- [57:18]
B
Like, but of course you did it to get anything you're doing, like, anything visual that you're doing, like, on a certain level, like, it is to be noticed or you wouldn't do it at all.
- [57:28]
A
Or just in her words, it's to notice it herself. She didn't like the way her neck look and she wanted to see the difference, but didn't necessarily want anybody else.
- [57:38]
B
Why didn't she like the way her neck looked?
- [57:40]
A
Exactly. Exactly.
- [57:41]
B
So what ideas? And where did she get those ideas about why a neck that looked like hers was bad?
- [57:46]
A
Exactly.
- [57:47]
B
Did she invent those ideas? Did they come. Did they spring naturally from her own mind?
- [57:52]
A
No. No. Nothing does. And I just feel like, you know, if you're truly looking for a shift that you can feel but nobody else will notice on you physically, I would suggest, like, psychoanalysis or behavioral therapy.
- [58:09]
B
I was just thinking, like, try liking yourself. You know, that's a huge inner shift that other people might not know. So it'll make a huge difference in your life. But, yeah, go to therapy. Try that.
- [58:17]
A
Yeah. But, yeah. End. End. Rant.
- [58:21]
B
Yeah, that was a good one.
- [58:23]
A
Thank you.
- [58:24]
B
Um, I guess I'll just. I'll round it out with my last thought, which is just that I had a really fun tie in to our book club this month because I watched the Victoria's Secret fashion show, which I almost never do, because there's really no need this year. I was proven correct. There really is. Yeah. No need for me to be watching that. But it was fun to watch with all my readers. But I was looking through the. Because, of course, there's, like, obsessive backstage coverage of this. This whole extravaganza. And I noticed that in all the coverage they kept, including this photo that became my favorite photo of the night, which was that it was just a table absolutely covered in hair extensions of, like, all colors, shapes, and sizes. And I don't know. There's something just so honest about this photo where I'm like. Right. Like, that is the real nature of the backstage of the Victoria's Secret show. Like, it is just so much like smoke and mirrors of glamour, but actually, like, this kind of horrible, laborious process of, like, crafting these artificial women for a singular moment down the Runway to sell you underwear. Cheap underwear.
- [59:33]
A
So fascinating. I mean, there'd be absolutely no way to track this because, you know, supply chain in beauty is so, so completely murky. But I would love to trace back the origins of some of this hair and, like, it ended up on the Victoria's Secret Runway. But who is the. The person in a different country who, like, shaved their head and sold their hair for money to eat that now ended up, in part, on the Victoria's Secret Runway?
- [60:01]
B
That would honestly be, like, if. If any women's magazines were serious in any capacity at all anymore, that would actually be an incredible, like, long form story of like the, like just the travel of a piece of hair from its origins to its. Its conclusion on a Runway or something.
- [60:18]
A
Or even if it's all synthetic hair, like the.
- [60:21]
B
The.
- [60:22]
A
The manufacturer inside the crust of the fucking earth to the Runway as. As hair.
- [60:29]
B
The lifespan of a hair extension is kind of incredible. Anyway, so, yeah, looking at this photo, I was just struck by, yeah, the kind of the charade of beauty that happens at this event. And then, of course, it made me immediately think of this quote from Thick, which we read for the book club last month, which was from trustee McMillan Cottam, who said, for many black people, buying hair in the local beauty supply store is how we experienced immigration. Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese shopkeepers selling us colonized beauty from the heads of poor women in nations that the west has deliberately kept poor. We wear globalism on our heads. It seemed to me that you could not talk about a hair weave, really talk about it if you were not also talking about supply chains, currencies, gender and geopolitics. And obviously that alone is like a phenomenal line, an incredible way of thinking about something that we take for granted as, like, so simple and so disposable. But then I was thinking specifically at the Victoria's Secret Fashion show, like, you're adding this whole other insane layer to everything that she just said by. This is a event sponsored by and streaming on Amazon, who is even, like, further flattening those supply chains and those geopolitics and. And exploiting those women's in. In ways I'm sure that we can't even imagine while simultaneously putting these very shopkeepers that Tressy's writing about out of business entirely. And I just think there's. That's such a. A fascinating, complicated. Yeah. Complication to everything that we're talking about there.
- [62:02]
A
If any, like, serious magazine editors want to give Emily and I a large sum of money to research and write this story, I would love to do that with you.
- [62:11]
B
Joke. It is. It's really fascinating. It's really interesting, but it's something that.
- [62:15]
A
Would take like, so long report properly. Yeah.
- [62:20]
B
Anyway, just very cool. And I don't know the Amazon of it all, I thought was a really interesting complication to her point and really powerful and just funny to think about it through the lens of Victoria's Secret. Also, I don't know if you watched the Victoria's Secret Fashion show, but I did not. They had a. A whole pink carpet rollout ahead of time, you know, and so they had La Roach. I cannot remember the other women's name. They had the law, Roach, and this other woman who were, like, interviewing different people, and they very clearly just had these, like, insane Amazon talking points. It was just so funny to hear because it was like, this wasn't one of the questions, but it was essentially like, it's Prime Day. Like, what would you prime to yourself from the beauty department? No one cares. That is, no one is here to listen that.
- [63:05]
A
Yeah, I guess I don't expect anything more from Victoria's Secret, but of course, course not.
- [63:09]
B
They're getting that check. You know, I just thought it was so funny the way Amazon was, like, dominating these horrible interview questions. And I'm like, isn't the point of this to, like, make people interested or, like. Or to create clips that, like, make people interested? Like, no one cares about this. You're just. You're just plugging to an event. I don't know.
- [63:28]
A
We're just so accustomed to just watching ads that, like, everything has become ad, and we don't even care. We're like, okay.
- [63:35]
B
And often while I'm watching these things, I'm like. Like, is it my sick media brain that, like, notices that, like, are other people consuming the. The pink carpet pre show and being like, wow, this is fantastic interviewing of my.
- [63:50]
A
All of.
- [63:50]
B
No, all of my faves are here, and they're being asked exactly the questions I want.
- [63:54]
A
I'm gonna add that to my Amazon cart now. Yeah, well, I mean, like, the Victoria's Secret fashion show itself is an ad, of course.
- [64:00]
B
Well, as they told you multiple times, like, everything on the Runway was available for sale immediately. But as I kept asking people, I was watching it with everything I liked. I was like, can I buy that now? And they were like, no, that's not for sale. And I was like, what is the point? Like, they're.
- [64:13]
A
What are we doing here?
- [64:14]
B
There are these things, like, Emelia Gray wore this, like, chain mini dress that the. The butt, like, dipped below her. The back dipped below her butt. And I was like, okay, can I buy that? No, you can buy the weird nude underwear that she's wearing underneath. It's like, that's a real issue for me. Victoria's Secret don't show me things that are fabulous.
- [64:31]
A
Like, an issue for Victoria's Secret. Like, what are you doing?
- [64:34]
B
No, I don't get. Why not? Also. Also, you could really tell, which. That's. This is mean. But you really could tell which things were available for sale in the garment department quite, quite easily.
- [64:47]
A
Well, my next subject that I want to tackle is somewhat related to The Victoria's Secret Runway show. I want to talk about Shark Beauty. Have you seen all of the ads and advertorial placements for the Facial Pro Glow system from Shark Beauty?
- [65:04]
B
I haven't tragically much.
- [65:06]
A
It must be my algorithm. Just like very beauty pilled. But it's like Shark Beauty is in the midst of this very impressive, if very stupid PR campaign for its new at home facial system. So it's called the Facial Pro Glow and it's like this multi part system. So you give yourself like a hydrafacial and clean out your pores with extractions. There's attachments that like go hot and cold for facial sculpting. And there's two skincare products that come with it. One's called Detox and one's called Infuse. But the press for it has been so wild. Like there's standalone features in Vogue. The strategist Whitney Port did an Instagram for it. Sophie Pavitt again did it. Is the like face of the Shark Beauty thing. I got a ton of press releases that Shark Beauty was used backstage at the Victoria's Secret fashion show. They hired like Kris Jenner to be at one of their events. Like, so they're really getting everyone in every demographic again.
- [66:07]
B
It's, it's the Mac foundation thing all over again. It's like, no, that's a facelift. And now with Sophie Babbitt too, it's like, no, that's a necklace.
- [66:13]
A
That's, that's a neck lift and a blepharoplasty. Um, but okay, so what I'm finding just like annoying about this marketing is that the product landing page claims that it like supports the skin barrier. So that's like a big claim to why you should use this product. But then the marketing materials emphasize the importance of eliminating your dead skin cells, which are also known as corneocytes, and getting rid of gunk, which is also known as sebum, which are like the two main components of a robust and resilient skin barrier. And it's just like capitalizing on the fact that people don't know this. And like there really is no way to support your skin barrier while eliminating all of your oil and dead skin cells. Like that is what the barrier is.
- [67:02]
B
They even gotta get rid of gunk. Everybody hates gunk. You gotta get rid of.
- [67:06]
A
I think, I think it, I think beauty brands should not be allowed to call Sebum gunk.
- [67:11]
B
I feel like that is just like not any. Like, it's just, it's not a non Technical word. So you can just like use it to apply to like whatever. And everyone's like, ew, yucky.
- [67:20]
A
And of course all these like beauty brands are saying like it means it's clearing out like dirt and oil and impurities. But oil is always included in what is gunk. And like oil is you, like you need it. Your skin literally needs the oil. It's a clear out of your face is to destabilize your skin barrier.
- [67:41]
B
It's very like detox language. You know what I mean?
- [67:45]
A
Yes. And one of their products is literally called Detox, you know, and I'm just like this is such insane framing. It makes me so mad. And then the other funny thing about it, besides the fact that it's like promoting itself as skin barrier support while decimating your skin barrier.
- [68:03]
B
Sure.
- [68:04]
A
Is that Shark Beauty is part of Shark Ninja, which is like the Ninja home tools company. So they sell like vacuums and blenders like the Ninja blender. So it's like this, this beauty division of like house cleaning, power tool kind of things. It's very similar to the Dyson Beauty jump where Dyson was doing like vacuums and now they're known for or it's very hair dryers.
- [68:30]
B
Suzuki, like what? Yeah, it's just very interesting to me when they're just like, let's just jump across industries. Like. Yeah, people are going to be into it.
- [68:39]
A
And so it doesn't shock me that they're kind of treating the facial as like a power tool to like.
- [68:44]
B
Sure.
- [68:44]
A
Hydra Facial. Suck out all the gunk from your pores.
- [68:47]
B
You gotta like power wash your face.
- [68:49]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [68:50]
B
Yes.
- [68:50]
A
Oh my God. That's it. It's a facial power washer. And it's. That's I think pretty unnecessary.
- [68:56]
B
Well, it seems also like speaking of facial power, it just remind me like it seems like the way people are interested in doing like extractions at home or those things that like flush out your ears of ear wax. You know, people are very interested in kind of like, like, like de gunkifying their body whether they like actually might need some of that gunk or not. Like it does. It seems like it speaks to almost people's kind of like like obsessive compulsive stuff with like purity and cleanliness.
- [69:23]
A
I was just gonna say it's purity culture and it's, it's like cleansing the body of the abject. And part of objectifying is getting rid of the object. Like when the per. Like eliminating the object from the person turns the person into object and gunk. Is. Objection. Quite literally, like, your pores expel it. They abject it from your pores, you.
- [69:46]
B
Know, and then pop them in one of those, like, Alaia medical tubes, and you've really got something. Something's happening there.
- [69:52]
A
I know. The other really funny thing about this too, is they shark specifically promotes their, like, two. It's like, two chambers system so that one of the chambers is full of the dirty water and one is full of clean water. And they call it visual proof that you're purifying your skin because you have this whole chamber of, you know, quote unquote gunk. So it's so purity culture.
- [70:16]
B
Sorry, that's. So. That's vacuum talk, is what you just told me. Like, that's how people sell you vacuums. Like, that's.
- [70:24]
A
That's what you're doing. You're vacuuming your pores.
- [70:27]
B
That's how people on TikTok are trying to sell me abyssal, like, steamer, you know, like, they're showing me chambers. They're dumping water, dirty water out, putting clean water in. That's very funny.
- [70:38]
A
Yeah. This is the new frontier for vacuum companies.
- [70:41]
B
It's. This is the face sucking the gunk out of your pores. Classic.
- [70:47]
A
But, yeah, that's all I gotta say about that.
- [70:51]
B
Fantastic. Should we talk about our main topic today?
- [70:55]
A
We are going to talk about the life of the showgirl. Life of a showgirl.
- [70:59]
B
The newest album release, the preeminent showgirl.
- [71:03]
A
Taylor Swift, our nation's top show girl.
- [71:07]
B
Yeah, you know, we talked about this kind of like, right when the album came out on Substack Live.
- [71:13]
A
But it's.
- [71:14]
B
But it's been really fascinating since that talk to kind of see the full fallout from this album in a way that I really did not anticipate. And also kind of like the conspiracy theories that have arisen out of it. And, yeah, a lot of drama.
- [71:30]
A
So much drama. I haven't really paid attention too much to the drama. Although I will say, the first time we talked about this, I was like, oh, I've listened to this album, like, three times now in preparation for our live, and it's horrible. I hate it. And, you know, that holds true. But I can't stop singing Father Figure. It's stuck in my head for weeks, and I'm like, oh, no, I think it's a bop.
- [71:53]
B
But do you like Father Figure or do you like George Michael?
- [71:56]
A
I like George Michael. That's it. That's it. But it's like the version I'm singing is the Taylor Swift version, not the.
- [72:02]
B
George Michael version just felt. I mean, again, I'm not the audience for this album. I am not the target demographic. I just felt with a lot of these songs, I'm like, right, this is a good song. Because the song that's interpolating is a good song. Whatever. I also. I live with a Swifty. I live with a hardcore Swifty man.
- [72:18]
A
Yes.
- [72:18]
B
And my experience of living the album vicariously through him was that it seems like y' all are Stockholm syndroming yourselves into loving this music. Because he started out the day also hating the album, and by the end of day, he's like, actually, I've. I'm going to retract this. Like, some of these are actually, like, really good. Okay. I think you've just, like, obsessively listened to it until you convince yourself it's. It's good. But, you know, I'm glad he found some enjoyment, I suppose.
- [72:44]
A
Yeah. I think that's like a microcosm of the macrocosm with. With, like, Entertainment Today is, like, not a lot of it's good, but we watch it and we end up enjoying it because that's what we've been trained to slop up, you know?
- [72:58]
B
Yeah. This is the slop we have, and so you got to enjoy it.
- [73:02]
A
We have, and so it's the slop we love.
- [73:04]
B
Yeah.
- [73:05]
A
But I think. I mean, there's a lot to say about, like, the aesthetics. The aesthetics of a showgirl and where.
- [73:12]
B
Yeah, the.
- [73:13]
A
The esthetics of this album sort of didn't.
- [73:16]
B
I mean, as I said on the live, like, my foundational problem with the aesthetics is, like, I just. I can't wrap my mind around what her team is ever up to or, like, what. What they're doing, kind of what their purpose is, like, how they're spending their time and why it's not on the outfits or the hair or the makeup. I just don't understand how you're showing me promotional imagery where none of the garments fit correctly and they're like corsets. It's like, what do you. What do you mean? This doesn't fit her. Also Photoshop it. It doesn't have to fit her. I'm looking at a doctored image. Like, doctor image.
- [73:49]
A
It seems they did AI video and imagery for some of the promotional material. So, like, why not use that for the corsets to make them fit? I don't know.
- [73:58]
B
I forgot about the AI of it all.
- [74:01]
A
Allegedly. I don't confirm.
- [74:04]
B
I don't think anyone would ever confirm that they're actually I don't think any major artist, any major celebrity would publicly confirm they're using. Like, why, why get the backlash? Just like have the plausible deniability. But it did seem, I mean, from the screenshots I saw. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't adding up to me that a graphic designer of some sort would, would be doing that or an animation specialist would make such errors. But perhaps you never know, her stylists are making errors, so anything's possible, I suppose.
- [74:34]
A
Well, it's like, okay, here's my question for you is like, are those errors, you know, quote unquote errors somewhat intentional? Because I do feel like it's been talked about to death. I know, but like, Taylor Swift uses her, like, not so great style or kind of weird, not fashiony, not flattering outfits to signal a sort of relatability.
- [74:56]
B
Listen, I agree, Listen, man, I agree, but I also feel like at that point we're using this to excuse mediocrity and like people not performing their jobs correctly. And there are different there. There's a time and there's a place for everything. Like with her street style. Absolutely. I think that's a gimmick. I think that's a relatability tactic. I think she wears affordable mid range clothing that her fans can sell out because it also makes her look super influential. Right? Like, oh, I wore a J. Crew mini skirt and now you can't buy that anymore. Like that makes you look like Kate Middleton or something. I don't know, you know, like having that type of power. And so I do think with that stuff it's intentional and it's like relatable. Look at me, I'm a regular girl. But when we are looking at imagery for an album rollout, nothing about that needs to be relatable. Nothing about it is relatable. I just, I don't. Yeah, I don't think there's any excuse to be. It's like going to the Met gal and being like, oh, she's just trying to be a relatable girl at the Met gal. It's like, well, that's not the time to be relatable, is it? That's the time to look fucking good.
- [75:55]
A
My counterpoint to this, which I don't think is intentional for them, and I don't think if it was intentional, it's executed properly. But I do think that in the, you know, archetype of the showgirl, there is supposed to be this layer of relatability because you're supposed to see behind the facade. So I'm like, thinking of the Showgirl.
- [76:14]
B
But it's a double facade.
- [76:16]
A
I know there is nothing behind the facade.
- [76:18]
B
She would never let us see the thing behind the facade because it would lay bare, like, what she's actually doing. She's like. She's a very good capitalist CEO. It's what she actually, you know, like. And you can't ever see that because to lay that bare, like, it negates all the art that we're seeing.
- [76:33]
A
Exactly. And that is my main gripe with this album aesthetically, is like, I was. You know, I'm not a swifty, but I like some of Taylor Swift's music. I know a lot of the songs. I was very open to loving this album. And I don't know when I think Showgirl, I love a lot of, like, Showgirl Media, Showgirls, the movie, love Gypsy, the Broadway musical. I'm obsessed with.
- [76:59]
B
Yes. Showgirls truly, to me, is one of the great films of all time. I can't express enough. Like, if you want to, like, I just think it summarizes mess in my taste. In a nutshell, like, Showgirls and the Room, like, to me, are two of the greatest pieces of bad. Perfect set. Like, it circles right back around to Iconic again. And the fact. And as I said on the live, the fact that there are no references to the Showgirls film, I find inexcusable. Like, it's just such good meme fodder. It's so iconic to not even wear one of the outfits, to recreate one of the scenes, to not even recreate the COVID of Showgirls with the bare leg out through the. My gosh, she looks like her even. I know, like, the curly hair, the curly blonde hair. She could have just really told. I don't understand why not.
- [77:43]
A
I know. And that's what, like, kind of missed the mark for me was. Like, I. The Showgirl archetype implies this duality. Like, you get the person versus the Persona. You get the, like, inner world versus the outer world. You get the messy side versus the polished side. And, like, both of those have to be present in order for the Showgirl archetype to, like, really be pulled off. And we didn't really see any mess or vulnerability or inner world. I. I think. I think maybe Taylor Swift thought she was showing some of that, but I.
- [78:14]
B
Think maybe she's calculated.
- [78:16]
A
Like, tell the difference of what's, like, a really deep, vulnerable thought and admission or something. And what's not. I don't know. I don't know. I Don't want to, like, put that on her. That's just my.
- [78:30]
B
Yeah, I'm not sure either. I was also surprised by the kind of. The lack of Vegas of it. All.
- [78:36]
A
Right.
- [78:36]
B
I just thought it was kind of weird. Like, nothing with any sort of, like, the Vegas showgirl, glam and lights or even in that city. I don't know. There's something odd about that to me as well. Or. And also, we have all these. I've also been pointing on the newsletter. We have all these other celebrities kind of like. Like having their own showgirl moment at the exact, like, wearing.
- [78:56]
A
Yes.
- [78:57]
B
Real showgirl outfits that are so much better than what I'm seeing from Taylor. And I'm like, why are you even letting them do that? Like, as the dominating cultural force she is as a multi billionaire, it's like, squash this, nip this in the bud. Like, make it actually, like, buy up the backstock. I don't even know. Like, I know she could make this the same way she does with her albums, like, dominating the top of the chart. Like, you could do that with fashion, you know? Like, you could edge people out of getting the stuff that you need.
- [79:21]
A
Addison Rae, Gypsy Rose Lee.
- [79:25]
B
How does that happen?
- [79:26]
A
Literally the night of the release, of the release.
- [79:29]
B
How does that happen? How does that happen? How do you not block that sale, Block that rental? Like, I don't know. Like, how are you not.
- [79:35]
A
I love that it happened. I love that it happened.
- [79:38]
B
I love that it happened, too. Gorgeous dress. And Aston looks so good. Aston is, like, the right girl for that type of dress, too, but it's just, like. I just don't understand what is the point of having a glam team to not execute on things? Like, this is what I mean. I rant about this with the Kardashians, too, all the time. Like, what is the point of having this money and this access and, like, everything at your disposal if not to execute on it?
- [79:59]
A
Right? And I think the money and the access and having everything at your disposal is another place where the showgirl, like, archetype and aesthetic of this album really missed for me because, like, there are usually pretty dire stakes for a showgirl. If we're looking at showgirl media, like, there's a reason the showgirl pushes herself to perform or, like, hurts herself or, like, ruins her body to perform. Like, usually economic stakes, there's some, like, artistic stakes. Thinking in of Gypsy Rosalie, it was like her mother abandoned her, didn't love her, and it was just like this. I need this love and approval from the Audience, I can't stop performing sort of thing. And Taylor Swift, like, has no stakes. She could walk away from this and still be one of the most successful artists of all time and have all the money in the world and have this rich fiance. And I don't think she, like, illustrated, you know, there's room for her to have, like, emotional stakes of, like, I need to stay at the top. But I don't think there was ever a moment of vulnerability on the album that, like, really gave us a peek into. Like, why do you just. Just keep going? What are your stakes?
- [81:07]
B
And that's kind of what I thought. Yeah. Going into hearing about the album title, seeing the visuals, that's kind of where I thought this was all going. Because to me, the Showgirl is also about, like, building yourself up from nothing and. And kind of like, achieving whatever this, like, American dream is that you have and kind of realizing it's just as empty and that, like, you've had to, like, sacrifice yourself for your life or whatever to get this thing that ultimately gives you not what you thought it would give you. And that, to me, is, like, incredibly rich text for Taylor Swift in mind and I'm sure, incredibly true. Being the most famous woman on planet or, you know, like, and achieving. Literally breaking every record, achieving every possible goal. Like, is there no feeling of, like, hollowness or, like. You know what I mean? Like, what do I do next? Like, even if I have. Especially just being newly engaged and stuff, like, there is kind of this idea of, like, you have it all. You literally have everything. It's like, I don't. That's what's interesting about the Showgirl is like, the veneer of having everything and privately kind of crumbling behind it.
- [82:05]
A
Yeah.
- [82:06]
B
But it's like, she can't let you have that moment. And, I mean, I think we really clearly see that on the Charlie XCX song.
- [82:13]
A
Right.
- [82:13]
B
Where it's like, she can't allow herself to have that moment of vulnerability, even just to say, like, hey, that really hurt my feelings.
- [82:19]
A
Yeah.
- [82:20]
B
You know, that, like, that wasn't a very nice song to. For me, I think even would have been more sympathetic than how hard she came at Charlie for being vulnerable and for being, like, emotional and. And very honest in a way that so many people did, that made so many people relate to Charlie to be like, we've all had that experience with someone who we thought was, like, better or perfect or has all the things we want and. And. And just fuels insecurity in us, whether it's justified or not. Which I think ultimately Charlie's saying, like, I get that it's not, but, like, I feel it. Any sympathy's a knife, you know?
- [82:52]
A
Right. And like I said on our live when we talked about this, I really do think Charli XCX and Brat specifically embody this showgirl archetype way more than the life of a showgirl.
- [83:02]
B
Brat is the performance. Brat is an archetype that she's, like, having to, like. It's a character. She's performing and having to upkeep.
- [83:10]
A
And you see the character, and you see the not character, and you see her.
- [83:13]
B
Yes.
- [83:13]
A
Yeah.
- [83:14]
B
And in simultaneously, in the same song, you see the performance of Brat, and you see the real person behind the brat complete. That's the brilliance of it as, like, that's what we're asking of Taylor in this particular moment, and she doesn't seem capable of giving it to her.
- [83:28]
A
That's what she kind of set herself up for.
- [83:29]
B
Set herself up for. But I also think it's. It is kind of what the public wants from the pop stars at this point is, like, not just the. The gloss, the veneer. They want kind of that hint of reality behind it. They want some of the, like, the truthfulness. And Taylor has given them tastes of that, I feel like, in the past. I mean, you know, she does show these moments of vulnerability, but I don't. It came across.
- [83:52]
A
Here's. Here's the vulnerability that I really wanted on this album.
- [83:56]
B
Okay.
- [83:57]
A
The song Wish list, there's like, you know, it's listing all of these, like, status symbols that people want. And then in the chorus, she's like, I don't want any of that. I just want you. And, okay, one of the verses. And I've talked about this a little bit before, but one of the verses, her lyrics are, they want a fat ass with a baby face. And then she's like, I just want you. I don't want that. And I feel like this really exemplifies what I'm talking about because, like, she does want that baby face. Like, we can see that Taylor Swift has had at least Botox or fillers. Her look has changed. She's more plumped in areas changed and not changed and tight in other areas. Exactly. Like, we can see things are happening. And again, it's not a judgment of things that are happening. It's just an acknowledgment that we can tell. We can see you're getting, at the very least, some needles put in your face every couple of months to maintain this aesthetic. So you do want this baby face that you say you don't want in the song. And like, I want more of that. I want like the emotional cosmetic transparency. I want like, lyrics that are like, deep about like the pain of living in the spotlight and feeling like you're losing your youth and that's what makes you valuable. Like, I want totally lyrics that are about the literal moment the needle goes in and what are you thinking and what are you feeling when the chat.
- [85:18]
B
Kisses the mahogany grain of her face.
- [85:22]
A
Exactly. I like, that's. That to me, like, that kind of emotional cosmetic transparency would be so much better for the industry than like, whatever kind of bullshit we're getting from the cut right now.
- [85:35]
B
Even if it wasn't such like, explicit cosmetic transparency. Like, there is something that you're talking about, like, about the pressure of fame, the pressure to perform, the pressure to look the same. Especially when you were a child star, you know that like, you kind of aren't allowed. You simultaneously aren't allowed to age in the public light. And you're also like, adultified from a very young age. And in fandom, like, you get the double edged sort of like, you can't grow up, but you have to be an adult as a child. You're sexualized, but you're like, asexual. Like, you have to stay young, but you also, like, you know, there's a stigma against child stars that like, can't evolve. I don't know. Like, that's. That's interesting that she does have so many interesting things going on and she is so like the pinnacle of the entertainment industry, which all these themes are swirling around. And I'm like, how do you just. How can you not mind any of them? Like, why do I have to listen to a song about your boyfriend's erection for a thousand years? Like, and who is that for? It's so infantile. It feels like it's so such a childish way to talk about a relationship and sexuality even. And even to relate to your own sexuality is like, you know, like, she is our age, essentially. Like, yeah, a year younger. Like. Like, what are we doing? What are we doing here? I don't know.
- [86:49]
A
I know. I think that's why it, like, feels a little odd to listen to some of these lyrics because it's like the content is perhaps more mature and older. Like, she's not excited explicitly been singing about sex and penises before. But like, the construction of the content is way more. It's childish and, yeah. Juvenile completely. So it's kind of a Weird. It's a weird aesthetic mix for me.
- [87:16]
B
And also, as an artist, like, do you not want to evolve? Like, do you not not want to grow up and innovate and evolve and iterate on what you like? What you do is clearly so successful. Like, you have the base formula down. Also, like, honestly, her fans, my roommate include, like, will listen to whatever you do. Like, there are kind of, like, no limit. Like, there even this great disappointment for so many of them. Like, I don't know, it isn't ultimately that big of a. Like, it's a huge smash hit still. So, like, why not take creative risk? Why not be artistically out there and trying things and experimenting and. And why are we bashing our fellow pop star? This is when Nicki was doing this to Cardi. Sorry, I come from a rap background.
- [87:58]
A
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [87:58]
B
But I felt the same way when Nicki Minaj was doing this to Cardi B. And I'm like, especially at that time, like, that was just the start of female MCs, like, really coming into Maine in a huge way. And I was like, why bully? Like, one of your few fellow female artists who's clearly so popular, and you could just collab with her. You could just lift her up. You could just be like, love this girl. Like, check our music. But you feel so threatened and so insecure. Like, I don't know, it makes for boring music. It makes for boring artists. Like, you shut yourself down to the world. You shut yourself down to the present moment, and it's like you instantly leave yourself in a previous era. Like, you instantly date yourself and. And refuse to allow yourself to move on. And I think that's a big lesson she could learn from Charlie xcx, someone who is constantly evolving and constantly moving on and. And completely reinventing who she is to meet her audience in whatever present artistic moment she finds them.
- [88:57]
A
And what's interesting, too, is, like, Taylor's just coming off of the Eras tour, where she does kind of very clearly gesture at her evolution, her artistic evolution and where she started and where she gone. And she has actually evolved quite a bit. So we know she's capable of that.
- [89:13]
B
And that she's aware of it, that she's conscious of her own eras, as you say, the different evolutions, the different stages. And yet for some reason thinks that this one is. I don't know how you go through your whole discography like that and then think, yes, this is a new era. Like, this is something fresh I'm doing. Yeah, I would say even Tortured Poets department is fresher than this.
- [89:35]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [89:37]
B
And I mean, I don't even mean that it's like a better hour. Whatever. It's just like. It is different lyrically different before.
- [89:44]
A
Yeah, yeah. This. I mean, I. I have not listened to Reputation that much, but I've heard a lot of people say, like, reputation was this, but just a million times better.
- [89:56]
B
Well, again and again, I'm not the Taylor fan. I'm not the Taylor Island. My familiarity with Reputation is because of just, like, working in media and the Kim, Kardashian and Kanye of it all.
- [90:07]
A
Oh, yes.
- [90:08]
B
But there was. But again, there was something about the reputation area that also felt like very. The feud with them. I understand it's founded, but it also just feels very silly and juvenile ultimately to me to have this back and forth about. Yeah, but. Or even needing to seek revenge on these people via your music, it's like. Or they can just stop existing to you entirely, you know? And, like, is that not kind of the ultimate punishment, especially for two, like, people who are obsessed with attention and fame is just to pretend that. Stop. They don't exist in your world, you know? Like, that, to me, feels like the ultimate punishment for Kim and Kanye.
- [90:42]
A
Yeah. And again, I think these are the stakes that we needed in the Showgirl era. We needed. Why can't you step away? Why can't you stop talking about these people when you could, you know, not.
- [90:54]
B
What is the obsession with it to your own detriment at times like. Like you were. That's really compelling and fired by this. Yes. Like, why can't you stop? Why can't you walk away? I think that's incredibly compelling art.
- [91:06]
A
Well, maybe next time. We know she'll have. She'll have an album out within the year, I'm sure.
- [91:10]
B
Absolutely. And again, celebrities hire us. You can just pay us. Hire Emily to have these conversations, to have these thoughts with you before we do things like this. Save us all a lot of pain, perhaps.
- [91:24]
A
I think it's time for our mess of the month.
- [91:27]
B
Sure. Well, my mess of the month is Hollywood pumpkin patches. I'm just. I'm.
- [91:33]
A
I need to know more.
- [91:34]
B
I'm just concerned for them, and no one seems to be sharing my concern for them. But I. There are. There are few seasonal, like, paparazzi traditions in Hollywood. Like, and one of them, Halloween, is a big time for stage paparazzi photos. One that we always do. There are these formal, like, theme park nights, like this spooky, haunted hayride type stuff at, like, Universal Studios or whatever. And all of the big corporations make their celebrities who are under contractual obligation to them, go to these nights and like, get their photograph taken at like the Universal Studios Fright night or whatever. So that's a classic annual tradition. And I, I've been seeing a few celebrities there, but honestly, not as many as usually go in past years. And I'm like, oh, like, what is happening? And then what's completely fallen off the map entirely is traditionally every single year we get a million staged family paparazzi shots of a pumpkin patch, I assume in Hollywood. I don't know where it is, but it's gotta be somewhere in la. And they all go there and they all take these elaborate family photos surrounded by pumpkins. And there's been literally zero this year. And I'm so concerned with what's happening and I don't understand. I literally want someone to do like a boots on the ground expose report on this and. And what's happening to this pumping bed. Because I don't understand if it's like, did we have a bad gourd season? Like, are there not enough skins?
- [92:56]
A
I was just gonna say, I think, I think it could be a climate change.
- [92:59]
B
Or is it a climate change story? Or is it just falling out of favor? Like, it's just not cool.
- [93:05]
A
I don't know, I feel like it's like, very family friendly for, like, celebs who have children. I like, can picture this amalgamation image in my head of like posing with your kids at the.
- [93:15]
B
And they always have these little, like, coordinated family outfits, you know, and they like pop the kids up on some extra big pumpkins and everyone's glam to the max and they call the paparazzo to be there. And literally not one. I haven't seen one all month. And it's just making me very. I'm very alarmed and I don't know why it's happening.
- [93:35]
A
I know we only have like a week. We only have a week till Halloween.
- [93:38]
B
We're running out of time.
- [93:40]
A
I don't think we're going to get the picks this year. Oh, no.
- [93:43]
B
I needed to happen. I'm very. I'm just very curious because I. It's like, I don't even know where this pumpkin patch is. Like, is it in the Palisades or something? You know what I mean? Like, did something happen to it? Someone report this story out for me. The bottom of it, I can't someone fly me out to LA so I can start snooping, start investigating? Nobody's as upset about this as I am. Nobody's. Nobody's from Monitor is upset, but I am personally very upset.
- [94:10]
A
Where are the pumpkin pictures?
- [94:11]
B
Give me the pumpkin pictures.
- [94:13]
A
You need them. You deserve them.
- [94:14]
B
I deserve them. Well, that's my mess of the month.
- [94:17]
A
Story to look into for next October. Yeah, keep an eye out.
- [94:21]
B
Uncover another mess of the month. Who knows?
- [94:25]
A
My mess of the month is Wrinkles Week at the Strategist. I kind of feel like I'm just hating on New York Magazine.
- [94:31]
B
Yeah, they really got your go this month.
- [94:33]
A
Well, they're. I mean, and I guess that's what they're trying to do for sure Magazine has always been really good at.
- [94:38]
B
They're really good at Range Bay, and.
- [94:39]
A
They get me every time. And so they've been publishing stories all week about how to treat your wrinkles. I think also very important to point out here, because I was like, this showed up in my inbox. I'm on the email list. And so when I was Googling it to take some notes for today, the SEO title is very different. So it's Wrinkles Week, front facing. And then the SEO title is Anti Aging Week. Oh, I know, right?
- [95:07]
B
Because I was gonna say with Wrinkles Week, are they presenting any?
- [95:10]
A
No.
- [95:11]
B
People who are like, love my wrinkles. Can't get enough of them.
- [95:14]
A
No.
- [95:14]
B
It's to the max.
- [95:16]
A
How to deal with wrinkles of all different kinds. There's.
- [95:19]
B
What if I don't want to deal with them? What if I want to. What if I wanted to cultivate them? How would I do that?
- [95:24]
A
No, you can't. You're not allowed. Not allowed anymore. There was an article that came out yesterday as part of Wrinkles Week that the headline was, is there anything we can do about our necks? And in the promo, the promo email, they said the neck situation isn't ideal. So it's just like, very odd language.
- [95:44]
B
It's not ideal, for sure. Like having a neck. Not. Not ideal.
- [95:47]
A
Not ideal to have a neck.
- [95:49]
B
I really loved your. Your reel, though, where you just said we should just guillotine ourselves. You've been. Everyone listening needs to know. Jess has been, like, prolific on reels this month.
- [95:58]
A
I'm addicted to Instagram.
- [95:59]
B
She really good at it.
- [96:01]
A
I need to stop because I did this years ago. I got addicted to Instagram like, six years ago, and it really ruined my life and my inspiration and I stepped away for a long time, and now I'm back, baby, and I can't.
- [96:10]
B
You're so good at it.
- [96:11]
A
Can't stop. Won't stop.
- [96:13]
B
You're doing a great job plugging yourself Also, thank you.
- [96:16]
A
That is my main motivation, of course.
- [96:18]
B
Of course. Why else are any of us on there if not to plug ourselves? If I knew how I'd do it.
- [96:23]
A
I did a little reel about this. Is there anything we can do about our next article? But my. The real mess for me is that the way that they described Wrinkles Week was a deeply vetted, non judgmental guide to all the best anti aging skin care. And the word I really want to focus on is non judgmental. It kills me because there is no such thing as non judgment in beauty. Beauty itself is a judgment. Like when Kant is theorizing beauty. The name of his book is Critique of Judgment.
- [96:57]
B
Beauty is a judgment, but also so is anti aging. Even to use the word anti aging isn't judgment completely.
- [97:06]
A
And then it's like, so when you say, I won't judge your anti aging routine, you're actually treating the judgment that begets anti aging, which is the judgment of women and the judgment of age and the judgment of wrinkles looking bad or being something to be fixed in a race. You're treating that judgment as a neutral truth rather than a negative judgment.
- [97:26]
B
Right.
- [97:26]
A
Because it's not. It's not neutral to say, bro, you've.
- [97:30]
B
Already taken a stance.
- [97:31]
A
Yes. The stance is the one that's not articulated, which is just assumed to be the neutral truth for everyone, which is that wrinkles are undesirable.
- [97:40]
B
Right. That's really wild. Like, I know that is just kind of the nature, but when you really think about the language that they're like judgmental and, and the judgment inherent.
- [97:50]
A
Yeah. Like when we say no judgment for anyone who's getting work done or something. Yeah, that always bugs me because it's actually saying I'm. I'm totally fine with the judgment that is making people get work done. I am on the side of the judgment that makes people feel they need to change their bodies in these specific ways.
- [98:09]
B
Right.
- [98:09]
A
Like, the judgment is always there. The judgment always exists. Human beings are always judging. You can't, you can't really have non judgment.
- [98:18]
B
Right. Because we have values inherent in all of these. Like, we made it like a posit. A value. Like a moral position too.
- [98:25]
A
Yes, a moral position and a value proposition. And like, that's just always there. So I really find that frustrating.
- [98:34]
B
And I just also just think it's a bad copy.
- [98:36]
A
Bad copy. I feel it's just a depressing turn for like a women's vertical that used to be like, vaguely feminist at least to be promoting like the most sexist and ageist beauty ideals that we have. And, like, just calling it, like, fun and empowerment or health or hygiene or just, like, even worse, like, this is what we're doing now. You can't escape it instead of, like, pushing back on any of this.
- [98:58]
B
Yeah, it's very odd. And it also. They've been having the cut. Has been having a real, like, kind of, like, all this stuff, to me is a real advertorial bent, like, kind of a weird, like, hidden spawn con. These weeks that they've been doing to me read, like, yeah, you're promoting, if not a product, like, kind of a weird agenda that sells products for sure.
- [99:19]
A
You know, like, completely. And I mean, obviously, like, all of these articles are full of affiliate links this week.
- [99:25]
B
Like, so websites only exist because of affiliate links these days. I don't know if people know that, but we literally only have media to sell you things through affiliate links. It wouldn't exist otherwise.
- [99:36]
A
And ads. We sell you things through affiliate links. And ads. Don't forget.
- [99:40]
B
Yes. Marked and unmarked.
- [99:43]
A
Except for us. Ad free Ad free mess world, baby.
- [99:46]
B
Yeah. Yep. No one's sponsoring this, that's for sure. Not even Diet Coke.
- [99:51]
A
And that's why we appreciate you all so much. Thank you.
- [99:55]
B
Yeah. For listening as always. Thank you so much for listening. It's been. It's been a long time that we've been talking, and you guys, I know, do stick to the end for some reason. We appreciate it.
- [100:06]
A
I love it. Yeah. If you like this, you know, review a good review, leave us a nice review. Only if you didn't like it. Just, you know, be quiet.
- [100:15]
B
Yeah. If you don't have anything, five stars to say, don't say anything at all, I think is how the phrase goes.
- [100:22]
A
All right, we will see you next month. Bye.
- [100:24]
B
Bye, guys.