‘After Hours’ with Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey

Summary

The Rewatchables Podcast Summary: "After Hours" with Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey

Episode Information:

• Title: After Hours
• Hosts: Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey
• Release Date: July 1, 2025
• Podcast: The Rewatchables by The Ringer
• Focus Movie: After Hours (1985), directed by Martin Scorsese

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1. Introduction and Context

The episode kicks off with Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey delving into their excitement for the film After Hours, a cult classic directed by Martin Scorsese. They emphasize the film's enduring appeal and its place among other beloved movies discussed on The Rewatchables podcast.

• Bill Simmons: "This episode of the Rewatchables is brought to you by Holiday Inn by IHG... After hours cult classic. When they talk about the cult classics and whatever the movies that get listed and it could be 5, 10, 15, 20, this one will always get thrown into the paragraph." [02:16]

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2. The Cult Classic Status of "After Hours"

After Hours is lauded as a quintessential cult film, often appearing high on rewatch-worthy lists. The hosts explore the reasons behind its lasting impact, citing its unique blend of comedy, satire, and paranoia.

• Sean Fennessey: "It's usually pretty high on the list. Yeah, there's a variety of reasons for that." [03:17]
• Bill Simmons: "This is one of the best New York City movies out there... It's just fucking weird the entire time." [11:09]

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3. Scorsese's Career and Context in the 1980s

The conversation shifts to Martin Scorsese's career trajectory during the mid-1980s. They discuss his struggles post-New York, New York and leading up to After Hours, highlighting his battles with cocaine addiction and the industry's shifting landscape.

• Sean Fennessey: "It wasn't even a New Yorker... So it's more of a time capsule. And for me, it's Scorsese style all over the place." [03:25]
• Bill Simmons: "Scorsese feels like he can't buy a break. He's trying to get Last Temptation of Christ done. Nobody will do it." [15:07]

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4. Personal Stories and New York City Reflections

Both hosts share personal anecdotes about navigating New York City, drawing parallels between their experiences and the film's depiction. They reflect on the city's evolution from the gritty, unpredictable environment of the 1980s to its more polished, corporate state today.

• Bill Simmons: "I started going back a lot for ESPN in the 2000s... There was no nav Systems until the 2000s." [06:59]
• Sean Fennessey: "The city is very corporate now. It's very kind of polished and shiny." [05:27]

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5. Cast Highlights and Performances

The hosts praise the film's ensemble cast, focusing on standout performances by Roseanne Arquette and Linda Fiorentino. They express admiration for Fiorentino's captivating presence and discuss the dynamic between her character and Griffin Dunne's protagonist.

• Sean Fennessey: "Roseanne Arquette is otherworldly in this movie." [32:31]
• Bill Simmons: "Rosanna Arquette... Roseanne Arquette, 100, 1985. It's gotta be one of what staged the best." [86:00]

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6. Production Stories and Challenges

Anecdotes about the film's production reveal the intense environment on set, including Scorsese's strict directives to cast members and the challenges faced during filming. The hosts recount stories of discipline, creative tensions, and the quest for authenticity in portraying New York's nightlife.

• Griffin Dunne's Experience:

  Bill Simmons: "Griffin Dunn was talking about... Marty knew I was a single man in New York who liked to party... So I need you not to have sex for the first eight weeks of the shoot." [74:15]

  Sean Fennessey: "He said, I need you not to have sex... Then Griffin Dunn has what he calls a fucking accident... 'Did you get laid? You ruined this whole scene.'" [55:30]

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7. Notable Scenes and Moments

The discussion highlights several iconic scenes from After Hours, analyzing their comedic and thematic significance. From the frantic cab rides to surreal interactions in underground clubs, Simmons and Fennessey dissect what makes these moments memorable.

• Diner Scene:

  Sean Fennessey: "Scene stealing location. The Den of thieves Benihana award is Terminal Bar... It's a lot." [64:04]

• Subway Token Scene:

  Bill Simmons: "The subway token scene I have when the guy won't let him go for an extra dollar." [44:09]

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8. Awards and Critical Reception

Despite its cult status, After Hours faced mixed reviews upon release, with prominent critics like Pauline Kael expressing disdain. However, over time, the film has garnered appreciation for its innovative storytelling and stylistic choices.

• Bill Simmons: "Pauline Kael hated it... But over time, everyone thinks it's one of the best movies of the 80s." [12:02]

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9. What Could Have Been: What-Ifs and Alternative Casting

Exploring alternate realities, the hosts speculate on how different actors might have influenced the film's reception and legacy. They ponder potential recastings with stars like Tom Hanks, Michael Keaton, and Sam Jackson, imagining fresh dynamics and performances.

• Bill Simmons: "How does he not end up in a Three to Four Episode Arc in the Sopranos? I just don't understand it." [69:12]
• Sean Fennessey: "Michael Keaton could have brought a great energy... I love Cooper Hoffman." [83:53]

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10. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up, Simmons and Fennessey reaffirm their admiration for After Hours, celebrating its unique place in Scorsese's filmography and its reflection of a transformative era in New York City. They express excitement for future episodes and potential deep dives into other New York-centric films.

• Sean Fennessey: "This movie just got made and acknowledged was enough to kind of start to get him back on track." [101:35]
• Bill Simmons: "What a great movie... It’s a five-star masterpiece." [105:21]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Bill Simmons (02:16): "After hours cult classic. When they talk about the cult classics and whatever the movies that get listed... this one will always get thrown into the paragraph."

• Sean Fennessey (03:25): "It's just a time capsule. And for me, it's Scorsese style all over the place."

• Bill Simmons (11:09): "It's just fucking weird the entire time."

• Sean Fennessey (32:31): "Roseanne Arquette is otherworldly in this movie."

• Bill Simmons (55:30): "Griffin Dunn has what he calls a fucking accident... 'Did you get laid? You ruined this whole scene.'"

• Sean Fennessey (64:04): "Scene stealing location. The Den of thieves Benihana award is Terminal Bar... It's a lot."

• Bill Simmons (105:21): "I have the weird New York characters because you could have even added a couple..."

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Key Insights and Conclusions

• Enduring Appeal: After Hours continues to captivate audiences with its unique blend of dark comedy and surreal storytelling, solidifying its status as a cult classic.

• Scorsese's Versatility: The film represents a pivotal moment in Martin Scorsese's career, showcasing his ability to experiment with different genres and styles amidst personal and professional challenges.

• New York as a Character: The depiction of New York City in the mid-80s serves not just as a backdrop but as a dynamic character itself, reflecting the city's raw and unpredictable nature during that era.

• Performance Dynamics: The chemistry between Roseanne Arquette and Linda Fiorentino stands out, offering compelling performances that enhance the film's narrative depth.

• Production Challenges: The intense and disciplined environment on set under Scorsese's direction contributed significantly to the film's authentic portrayal of paranoia and disorientation.

• What-If Scenarios: Alternative casting discussions highlight the film's versatility and the potential impact different actors could have had on its legacy.

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Note: This summary captures the essence of the podcast episode based on the provided transcript, highlighting key discussions, insights, and memorable quotes. It is structured to provide a comprehensive overview for those unfamiliar with the episode.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is supported by FX's the Bear. The Emmy award winning series returns following Carmi, Sydney and Richie as they push forward, determined not only to survive, but also to take the Bear to the next level. This season, the pursuit of excellence isn't just about getting better. It's about deciding what's worth holding onto. FX is the Bear. All episodes now streaming on Hulu. The rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer podcast network. Find the big Picture with Sean Fennesee.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is right.

[Bill Simmons]

If you had been left out of New York Month, I think. I think people would have felt like we were feuding.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I got to say, I'm already shooting.

[Bill Simmons]

With Kendrick Perkins, apparently. So I don't know if I could have added you to the list.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would be in great company if I could join Perk in the feud, but I'm very grateful to be invited here. It did cross my mind when you. I'm usually like, pretty chill about, like, Bill's gonna do whatever he wants to do with the rewatchables. I love being on the show whenever. But when you announced New York Month.

[Bill Simmons]

But it was. We announced it. Two films in that kind of belatedly became New York Month.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know what it was? It wasn't even am I going to be on an episode? It was, is a New Yorker going to be on an episode? That's. I was like, is John distributor?

[Bill Simmons]

Do we not have a New Yorker or anything?

[Sean Fennessey]

Van Cr.

[Bill Simmons]

I guess Kyle Brandt lives there.

[Sean Fennessey]

Kyle. Kyle Brand live there. Chris did live there for a time, but native New Yorker. We don't have as many at the Ringer as you would think.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's intentional because I have final say in a lot of this stuff.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm happy to be here regardless.

[Bill Simmons]

Rewatch was you could find on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel and you can find it as a video podcast on Spotify. We're videotaping this right now. The last episode of New York City Month. NYC Month. New York Month. What did we settle on for a title?

[Sean Fennessey]

Big Apple Broadcasting. Let's go.

[Bill Simmons]

There you go. We had to do this one. Martin Scorsese after hours, right after this. There's never been a comedy quite like after hours, raves People magazine. A racy, raucous ride through the night bound to leave audiences reeling with laughter. Newsweek says what a pleasure it is to watch Scorsese cook. He's masterful. His images sparkle. And the Village Voice calls it funny, original and audacious. After hours. I'm glad you came. Rated R. Now it's select theaters.

[Sean Fennessey]

Coming soon to additional locations.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode of the Rewatchable is presented by Holiday Inn by ihg. It's a new day for a new stay at Holiday Inn for business travelers. Do you count as a business traveler, Sean?

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure. Sometimes.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. With modern spaces for meeting and working, plus delicious dining for breakfast, happy hour. Do you breakfast, Sean?

[Sean Fennessey]

I do. I had an apple and a breakfast bar this morning.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, interesting. I don't need any breakfast, but I do love happy hour and dinner. They have that too. You have everything you need to get your work done. Give your everyday business travel and upgrade. Book your next business trip at Holiday Inn by IHG. Visit holiday inn.com to book your stay. All right. After hours cult classic. When they talk about the cult classics and whatever the movies that get listed and it could be 5, 10, 15, 20, this one will always get thrown into the paragraph.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's usually pretty high on the list. Yeah, there's a variety of reasons for that.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it a New York movie or a Scorsese movie? If you had to pick one, I'll.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just spoil right now that this is in my top five favorite Scorsese movies of all time. So for me, it's a Scorsese movie. But part of that is because the New York that's in this movie is not a New York I ever experienced. I'm too young to have been in the dirtbag central that was Howard street in 1985. So I don't even. It doesn't even look as much. It looks like a place that still looks that way, but it doesn't feel that way anymore. So it's more of a time capsule. And for me, it's Scorsese style all over the place.

[Bill Simmons]

It's so funny watching this and just seeing all the seeds of Goodfellas and all these little edits and camera shots where you're like, oh, he saved that for later. For five years after, so. So I am barely old enough to remember this version of New York City.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you go to Manhattan when you were a kid?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So when I was in high school. And then right after, my buddy Jim Grady, his mom got a place in New York City and we started. If she wasn't there, we started going, yeah, we're gonna stay in your place. And you can imagine what ensued. We would go out. So it was like probably late 80s, early 90s.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. You mixing it up at the Berlin Club? What were you doing?

[Bill Simmons]

We were just kind of going out and trying to get into places with fake IDs. But there was a couple nights that we. That. The reason this movie is so great is everybody has these New York City nights. But in that day, there was one night we ended up in the meat district. And I honestly thought I was gonna die. It was like three in the morning, we're at some party. We got lost leaving. We didn't know where we were going. And we were. And it was exactly like the New York in this movie where it's just. It's empty, it's scary. You don't know how to get anywhere. There's no cabs, and you're just like. It becomes Escape from New York.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's so funny too, because me packing that area that you're talking about in particular is one of those parts of the city now that is defined by hamburgers costing $57 in restaurants and not by, am I about to be knifed? Am I going to encounter an incredible sculptress who will show me, you know, the ways of downtown New York. Like, the energies are just so changed. It's so. The city is very corporate now. It's very kind of polished and shiny.

[Bill Simmons]

And, I mean, think of SoHo.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's where it is.

[Bill Simmons]

There's SoHo in this movie versus the SoHo now.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's not.

[Bill Simmons]

There's no relation.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's like a corporate epicenter in this movie. It's just. It's a. It's a freewheeling thing. And that's a great part of the idea of the movie, which is it's a movie about somebody from the square world that SoHo now looks like, but is more uptown. And what happens when an uptown square guy, a yuppie guy, enters the world of the artist, the world of the drug user, the world of the. The rebel, the world of the untamed? And what happens when he gets inside of that space? And what does it do to him? What does it make. How does it make him feel? So such a cool idea for a movie and a way to kind of platform this very particular time in the city's history.

[Bill Simmons]

There's only two cities in America that when you landed them and you're trying to navigate them, just seem completely overwhelming. The other one is Los Angeles for.

[Sean Fennessey]

The opposite reason, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're like. You don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

In la, stuff begins and ends.

[Sean Fennessey]

You can't walk anywhere.

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, at least you get this grid, like, experience in New York where it's like all the streets are numbered.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're moving up and down or east to west. And you, you can always kind of.

[Bill Simmons]

Feel there's water both ways.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. You know, when you've hit the end of any side, ye, it's a little different if you're in Brooklyn or the Bronx or Queens. It's way more confusing in la. I've got my sister in town and we're just driving around the city and it's like there's no way to make any logical sense of it experientially, at least here. And this is part of my picking nits too, so I'll wait for that. But New York is like very conquerable.

[Bill Simmons]

True. You know, like once you, once you understand it, but there's so many different pockets.

[Sean Fennessey]

True.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't really fully understand that until the late 90s. I just didn't. I didn't understand where anything was in relation to anything else. Like people were like, oh, they, they, they're from Brooklyn. I'm like, I don't know where that is. I don't know where that is compared to this. And eventually in your head, the map kind of settles there. We also had no nav Systems until the 2000s.

[Sean Fennessey]

So the thing that I did for years when I lived in the city was anytime I'd be on the subway, I'd just look at the subway map and I would just study the subway map like it was a test and I would try to learn it as best I can. And then something really interesting happened to me in 2004, which is that the city experienced an MTA strike. So there were no subway trains running at all in New York City. So everyone walked to work. Wow. So I walked down every day. I want to say it was 3rd Avenue and I walked.

[Bill Simmons]

Was this when you were working a Vivid video?

[Sean Fennessey]

It was pre Vivid.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was before I unsheathed the weapons. No, it was, I think I was working at Complex magazine. And I walked. We lived on 96th and 3rd.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I walked every day to 42nd and 6 for like whatever, however long that strike ended.

[Bill Simmons]

Like six weeks, maybe a 45 minute walk.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a long walk. But when you're out walking and there's no other way to get around, then you're like, let's walk downtown and go to a restaurant. Let's walk over the bridge and see what we can get, what trouble we can get into in Brooklyn. And then that just becomes like a little bit more comfortable where, you know, on foot, where you're headed at all times. Whereas Paul Hackett in this movie, he doesn't even Come downtown. As soon as he gets downtown, he's lost. Which is an interesting thing about the city is like, if you're afraid of it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

It can eat you up. And that's kind of what happens to him in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I never got a handle on it. I started going back a lot for ESPN in the 2000s, and the. The corporate hotels would always be in different spots that we stayed at. So sometimes it would be like Trump Plaza in Central Park. Other times it was way down toward, you know, SoHo or Battery Park.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then eventually the city, like, fell into place in my head. But it's.

[Sean Fennessey]

When you were an adult, though, would you have nights where you guys would go out to dinner after work and then have a couple of drinks and then find yourself wandering until 4 o' clock in the morning?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Where you're just in a cab. And I was like, we should go. This place. This place. My buddy works here. And you're just. But the cabs. I always appreciate the cabs thing versus what it's like out here. Because the difference in la, since even, like, before I moved here, like, if you watch Swingers and everybody's in their cars and they have like multiple scenes where the five guys are driving in their cars now, like Uber, Lyft, LA is a little different. I think it is.

[Sean Fennessey]

That shift happened exactly when I moved here to work for you. It was almost exactly in 2012, when you could feel Uber really like arriving in the city. And so the designated driver, as an idea, kind of went out the window. Like last night we went out and I didn't have a drop of alcohol because I was driving around the city. Everywhere we went, every spot that we stopped into. So it's a. It's a big change in New York. You can get ripped shit at 8pm and be out for another eight hours. Like, it's just a totally different experience.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so let's talk the New York piece first and then we'll talk about Scorsese, because. So Griffin Dunn was talking about who's the star of the movie. And he's talking about. This is. There's an oral history about the. About the movie. That's good. But he says the events of After Hours were not dissimilar from my life at that time. I would make immediate connections with total strangers in places that it might not have been a good idea to be in. That's why young people came to New York to have experiences that were terrifying, exhilarating, sexy and dangerous. So that's like 70s first half of the 80s, New York that we love. It's been very romanticized. It's been in a lot of good TV shows and movies and. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And the Time of Things. Sidney Lumet, you know, the Serpico, New York, the Hard Bitten City. It's a little dangerous, but a little exciting.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So there's been like the dangerous genre movies. There's been like the super fun New York's Alive kind of movies. But you also have Saturday night lives there and you have this crazy disco scene and punk music and just everything's happening and it just seems like a really exciting place. But then you could have nights like this where you meet. You meet a girl and you end up. And you don't know where you are. And it just feels like you've entered this alternate universe, which is one of the best things about this movie. It's just fucking weird the entire time.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a Dark side of the Yellow Brick Road kind of a movie. And literally he's walking down brick roads in this neighborhood. And it is like very much a Wizard of Oz kind of homage. And it's like if Dorothy instead walked into the block. And white darkness rather than the color that she walks into when she enters Oz. That's the idea you're supposed to have. Seems like he's gonna have one of the most fun nights of his life. He's picked up a hot girl in a diner and he's gonna have fun and he's gonna explore the downtown scene. He's gonna meet a hot sculptor and he's gonna experience a certain kind of culture that's a little far away from him.

[Bill Simmons]

And then it goes bad and then it goes worse.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So the Cocaine y Screwball paranoia era, can we call it? After Hours into the Night, Desperately Seeking Susan Something Wild. There's something.

[Sean Fennessey]

Those first three are all 1985.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Which is so interesting that, like, you can feel all the creative people are all kind of feeling the same way about what it's like to go out at that stage of their lives, which is so interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's either people who were on cocaine or people who had just quit cocaine or people who had been around a lot of cocaine. There's like an energy to these movies that I think would just be weird now.

[Sean Fennessey]

I totally agree. And these people were entrusted with millions of dollars to make these movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like Scorsese. It seems like he's in the aftermath of his crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't wait to talk about that. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, like, he's not at the peak of the mania of him using, when he's making this movie, it feels like he's channeling, but he lived it for previous experiences. Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And then it seems like some of the people that are in this movie are in the middle of it. Like, Griffin Dunn's pretty open about it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

That John Hurd who plays the bartender. And they were like, it's perfect casting. Because in real life, this guy was just taking it down all over town.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, think about just the production of the movie is they just had to be up all night every night. The movie was only shot five to five, so you got to be up five to five. What's the best way to stay up in those off hours?

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I can't even imagine. It was also a polarizing movie. Pauline Kael hated it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Shocking.

[Bill Simmons]

I think she just lost her way in the mid-80s.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the recurring theme.

[Sean Fennessey]

She got. She got cynical, she got bitter.

[Bill Simmons]

She really did.

[Sean Fennessey]

The pieces are still really so well written, but she doesn't really have her finger on the pulse anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

The critics did not like it, which I thought was fascinating. But there's a Scorsese piece of this, though. We just got to do the deep dive.

[Sean Fennessey]

I reread a part of Martin Scorsese, A Journey this week, which I reread.

[Bill Simmons]

The Biskin book for all the Scorsese parts. I read a couple other things. Yeah. I mean, it's all doc, all out there.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Basically breaks down from cocaine in 1978.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

After he's done New York, New York, which bombs and is going to die. His body's just full of blood and poison, and they're basically like, we don't know how. You're not dead yet, but you have to cut all this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cold, famously asthmatic. Already not dying. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All his friends are like, you're gonna die. What are you doing? And then ends up making Raging Bull with De Niro, which he feels like is a massive failure because it doesn't do well and then it doesn't win the Best Film Oscar.

[Sean Fennessey]

Correct.

[Bill Simmons]

And yet it wasn't a massive failure because then as the years pass, everyone thinks it's one of the best movies of the 80s. Plus, De Niro wins Best Actor.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was acclaimed at the time, too.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, he for some reason, felt like he failed.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it was not a huge box office success. It kind of had, like, a real kind of middling reception. But it was. I mean, it was nominated for eight Oscars. Raging Bull.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it remains a masterpiece. Hard Movie to watch, but a masterpiece.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't really fully understand it, but his, his cohorts, which we've talked about before on this. Lucas is now a megastar. Spielberg is about to be a megastar again with ET And Raiders and everything. Poltergeist. Everything that's happened with him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, think about. We did Close Encounters and Star wars recently, both in 77. And his movie in 77 is New York York, famous bomb. And then he's kind of spiraling there.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's those two. It's the Palma. It's a whole bunch of people, but two of the guys are ascending. And then him and Coppola. Copa has one from the heart in 82, that bomb. Similar disaster bankrupts his studio.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Scorsese feels like he can't buy a break. He's trying to get Last Temptation of Christ done. Nobody will do it. And.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, there's a. It's a great story about what happens with it because it's. It's about to happen. I mean, he. It's this famous novel written about the sort of humanity of Christ, which is like, what if Christ was actually a person who is susceptible to lust, human desire, a decision to maybe go against the path of God? That is that we all understand. We just accept the Christ as this like, perfectly moral figure. And this novel kind of reckons with this idea. And Scorsese, almost all of his movies are about faith and redemption. He's obsessed. He's a. He's a Catholic and he's like a dyed in the wool Catholic. But he's like, I'm a flawed person. We're all flawed people. It's his dream to make a movie about Christ as a flawed person and explore what that means. And he's trying to get it made at Paramount. He's trying to shoot it in Israel, in the Holy Land.

[Bill Simmons]

And Paramount's like, what about aliens?

[Sean Fennessey]

Literally, they're like, why would we spend $10 million? And there starts to be a letter writing campaign from one of the Catholic leagues and they get 500 letters a day. Do not let Martin Scorsese make a movie about Christ and not this novel. For sure. And they buckle and they cancel the movie. He was going to make the movie. He had a budget, he had a cast. I think at the time it was Aiden Quinn was going to play Jesus Christ. De Niro did not want to play Christ.

[Bill Simmons]

Smart.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm doing this because we'll never do the Last Temptation of Christ on the rewatchables, I assume.

[Bill Simmons]

I really like the Soundtrack.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is a good soundtrack.

[Bill Simmons]

I was really cranking it in the late 80s. Peter Gabriel.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is Peter Gabriel. So Aiden Quinn is Christ. Harvey Keitel is Judas.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you want to do Last Temptation of Christ?

[Sean Fennessey]

Sting as Pontius Pilate?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's. It's fucking. I don't even think they show it on TV anymore.

[Sean Fennessey]

But the version that eventually got made, which is like seven or eight years later, is. Willem Dafoe plays Christ. Yeah, but the version that they were going to do is. It's just. It's a massive. It is one of the massive sliding doors in movie history, because him not making it leads to him making this movie and a couple of other movies that are really interesting. And I will posit this is not even my hot take, but I will pause it. I don't know if Goodfellas happens. I think if this movie doesn't happen, you're 100.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

So it's kind of good that it got. That movie got canceled. Even though it was so heartbreaking for him and he needed to retreat so bad. He felt like he was as low as he'd ever been after they canceled.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we didn't mention comedy, which bombs.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And he does that as a favorite in Zadaro. Yes, that movie bombs. He can't get Last Temptation of Christ done. And he just feels like, I. I've blown my shot. I'm going to be the promising director that people talk about 40 years from now. And I fucked it up. And.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, which is interesting, too, because he had already made Mean Streets. Alice doesn't live here anymore. Raging Bull, like, he'd already done enough to be.

[Bill Simmons]

But his friends are making billion dollar movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're right.

[Bill Simmons]

So Biskin said he met with Fox about King of Comedy and why they didn't support it. Okay, this is Scorsese's quote. They explained that it didn't pay for them to support King of Comedy any further at the box office. So after a month, they're going to pull it. The same thing happened that year at Fox with Robert Altman's health. They didn't even release the film. Altman didn't do another studio picture for, like 10 years. I realized at that point nobody cared. And that was when I really understood that the 70s were over for me, that the directors, the ones with the personal voices, had lost. The studio's got the power back. Today you look at an ad, you don't even know who directed a picture. We were talking about this with the Star wars pod. This is kind of the culmination for him realizing, like, we're fucked. Coppola went the other way. And he's like, we don't need the studios. I'll pay for everything myself. And it's like, yeah, you just went bankrupt. This is why we need the studios, because they're taking a bunch of different bets. Some work, some don't. If you're just, like, doing a studio where you're making all the bets yourself, good luck.

[Sean Fennessey]

Coppola is still convinced, though, that this is the right way. This is how he did Megalopolis. And there are some guys who think to be independent is better. And then there are some people who do the devil's bargain of working with a big company so that they can get the thing that they want. But Scorsese was right. This was the era of Die Hard and Lethal Webbing.

[Bill Simmons]

It was coming. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And Simpson and Bruckheimer. And that's where everything was. Flashdance. Like, that's where Hollywood was going. And the Hollywood that he had so much.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder what made him. Because when he's making this, that's all just starting. It's like, that's 85 is first blood two.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Rambo. Rambo, yeah, Beverly. Those cop hits, all the Schwarzenegger stuff starting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Back to the Future. Then they sign up two sequels for that. And something shifting. And he's seeing it, and he's like, this is bad for me.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's a flip side to that coin that we don't talk about as much on the show, which is that of.

[Bill Simmons]

All those movies, well, those.

[Sean Fennessey]

Those movies are good. It's not that. It's that there is still a kind of, oh, tourist Hollywood, but it's very respectable and stuffy. Like, the movie that won best picture in 1985 is out of Africa.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

So there is still a version of moviemaking that is important and culturally meaningful, quote, unquote. But it's not cool and it's not exciting and audacious the way that the new Hollywood guys were. Like the movies that are nominated that year. Color Purple, Kiss of the Spider Woman, Pretzy's Honor by John Huston and Witness. Peter Weir's a great filmmaker. John Houston's a great filmmaker. Those are not, like, the most audacious movies of their careers. So that crew of guys have either become blockbuster filmmakers, or they're starting to kind of get left behind a little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And so that's. I'm sure what he was feeling.

[Bill Simmons]

It felt like. It felt like this in the time. And then even as we look back when we do all these older ones, like that first half of the 80s especially, there was a certain, like, Oscars had a type of. And it was like, oh, it's big, lavish, and there's a trailer.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's based on something. There's a really cool theme song. And that's just kind of what worked. And the stuff Scorsese was doing, I think, for when he lost Raging Bull to Ordinary People, when he lost the best film. And he was, like, devastated. But, like, we. We did Ordinary People. That movie's really good.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, it's better than out of Africa.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. There's been some other Oscar ones where we're like, oh, my God, how did that happen? I don't know if that's one of those.

[Sean Fennessey]

We just talked about this with Gandhi too. What did Gandhi beat? Famously something else that was just like, so clearly the superior film in our team. It was E.T.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

So, you know, there's. There's.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's. The Oscars had a type. And then as we kind of moved into the 90s, that flipped. But so anyway, he needs a job. He said, I thought it'd be interesting to see if I could go back and do something a very fast way, all style and exercise, completely in style. And I think this is why I love this movie. And it's so weird. And I have a complicated relationship with this movie because I don't really enjoy it that much as an experience because it's so stressful. It's very stressful, but it's so artfully done. And it's so weird that it's just kind of riveting. But it's a weird one. It's not like one of those who would be like, say to your wife, like, let's Friday night, let's bang out after hours. This is just in this weird area over here.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's funny that you say that, because my wife does love this movie. This is one of her favorites because it's not that violent. So, like, obviously, I watch a lot of Scorsese movies at home, and most of his movies are defined by the relationship to violence. This movie has some violence, but it's kind of jokey. It's really just about a guy who keeps getting stuck. It's just keeps getting worse. More stress and more stress as time goes by. So for me, it is an all time personal favorite. I'm really just stoked that we're even talking about it right now because, you know, I have some anxiety. You Know, I've certainly felt like this is a good representation of a certain kind of a guy who wants to have fun, but maybe doesn't realize what it means to try to have fun. Like, it's a very representative movie. It's also like it's loaded with ideas. Like, the whole movie is like a castration examination of every time a guy gets close to a woman, something bad happens. He wants to sleep with her, but it's like, a little bit dangerous. And the sort of fear and desire that goes into being a man at this time in history. And the movie is populated by all these beautiful women and this sense of a guy who doesn't know how to really engage with any of them, even if he thinks he does. So for all those reasons, it's a lot of fun. But the style thing that you pointed out is the number one reason. Because this is him making a big shift. And he kind of has stayed in this style of movie ever since. He'll have the occasional. Like, he made Kunda and he made the Last Temptation of Christ. He makes some movies that are silenced. His religious movies are slower paced and more painterly. I would say. Age of Innocence is. But this movie cuts fast, the camera moves fast. It's rock and roll energy. And you said, like, the way that Goodfellas looks and feels. It starts right here and it starts because of Michael.

[Bill Simmons]

Close ups of a clock.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. There's, you know, there's that famous shot in this movie where the camera, like, whips in on Marcy right before she walks out the door and winks at Griffin Dunn. And you're like, that's good, fellas. Yeah, it's not. Nobody has a gun in their hand. But it's that feeling of, like, a.

[Bill Simmons]

Key going in the door. Close up of the key.

[Sean Fennessey]

Boom. And that film is jump cutting up the stairs.

[Bill Simmons]

There's so many tricks.

[Sean Fennessey]

So that energy is so. It's just so fun to watch a movie that feels. Feels like that.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's. He's one of the only directors, you know, we always talked about with writers, if you could cover the byline of a piece you're writing and know who the writer is, then that writer, you know, the writer's doing something right. Be like, oh, I know who that is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Hey, you were one of those guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, thank you. Tyler Parker is like that 100 cover the bylines. Like, that's Tyler Parker.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Scorsese.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is the highest compliment I think you can pay a writer.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a good one. Scorsese Definitely. There's some sort of style that he has that you can. You can. You can be like, I bet if somebody just blindfolded or you had amnesia and you came out of it, you're like, guess what, director? He's one of the few that I feel like I would know who the director is.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, what's cool with him too. He's also one who, if you. If you blindfolded yourself and just listened to the music in a movie. Yeah, you'd be able to know right away. Because this is the same thing as Goodfellas 2, where it's like heavy score, 50s needle drops, punk rock, no Rolling Stones somehow. No Rolling Stones. That's true.

[Bill Simmons]

Can't believe he didn't work in like Dead Flowers or just some. Some sort of random.

[Sean Fennessey]

What was, what was the Stones records like in the 80s? I'm not as up on the stones in the 80s.

[Bill Simmons]

We could have. He could have dipped right into Tattoo you and done something from that kind.

[Sean Fennessey]

Of like fake disco stuff that they were doing. Yeah, that could have worked.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Scorsese loved it and he called this movie kind of a miracle, a rejuvenation. Every time I put my eye to the viewfinder, I was happy I could sit down, look at the set with detachment. It was a great feeling. I regained the freedom I felt when I was starting out. It was a real gift. It made me think, like.

[Sean Fennessey]

And we.

[Bill Simmons]

We talked about Coogler. I remember with somebody on Ringer movies about how I just wish he made more movies. Which is like kind of like a shitty thing to say in some ways, where it's like, I wish you did your job more.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, you just wish you had more his movies to watch.

[Bill Simmons]

I just wish sometimes great directors would just be like it, I'm just going to do this movie for four months. Like, Soderbergh's really good at this. He'll just be like, it, I'm going to make a movie. I'm just going to bang one out. Like, I like this script. It'll take three months. We'll see how it goes.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's. Some of it depends on how you work, though. Like, Soderbergh shoots and edits his movies. He holds the camera when he makes the movie. He is doing everything. And so for him, he cuts the movie together while he's making it, because it's all in his head. Yeah, he's an alien. You know what I mean? Like, so he. Of course he's going to end his career with like 95 movies. It's amazing. And he's constantly working. Coogler is trying to make $100 million movies, and they take years to put together. And you got to make sure that all the stars are available at the right time. And you got to make sure all your crew. I get it.

[Bill Simmons]

But I just wish I could see Brian Coogler's After Hours where he was just like. Yeah, it's just everything takes place in one day. And I did some weird shit.

[Sean Fennessey]

But you can only make movies like after, when you're low.

[Bill Simmons]

True.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, or you could. You could decide to make a small movie. But, you know, he felt like he was at the bottom, you know, Coogler's at the top. He's been at the top for 10 years.

[Bill Simmons]

So Stan Kubrick is another one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, he took his time. Stan, huh?

[Bill Simmons]

Stan. Yeah, my guy, Stan. Stan Kubrick.

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

I call him Stan just like he.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was a New Yorker.

[Bill Simmons]

Just star buddy cop, New York. Buddy cop movie. Just randomly.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'll tell you.

[Bill Simmons]

He was directed Die Hard 3.

[Sean Fennessey]

Would watch it. Would watch it.

[Bill Simmons]

It'd have been great.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wouldn't take McTiernan away from Die Hard 3, but I would watch Stan Kubrick's Die Hard 4. I'm not gonna forget Stan Kubrick.

[Bill Simmons]

Our guys.

[Sean Fennessey]

Stan, you think you get along with Kubrick? Think you'd be boys?

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's. I think what he did to Cruz and Kidman, where he was just clearly trying to break them emotionally, was really the most interesting thing he did.

[Sean Fennessey]

You related to that?

[Bill Simmons]

No, just that he was like, this marriage is so fascinating to me. I'm just going to make them do scene after scene after scene and see what can happen here.

[Sean Fennessey]

He had a filmmaking style.

[Bill Simmons]

Should we do the re Eyes Wide Shut and do it live in the weirdest in London?

[Sean Fennessey]

Just me and you just looking at each other the whole time.

[Bill Simmons]

So Griffin Dunn said, I think it's great. Yeah. I love the way he's talking about the movie. I love the way he goes through the night and finally comes out on the other side. It's like a sleepless night. A night of horrifying dreams. You're floating through another world with no idea of when or how it would resolve. I wonder if that's what attracted Scorsese to this, too. That this is like almost like a fever nightmare. And God only knows what kind of baggage he had from 76, 77, 78.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm sure you're in a sinkhole of a day.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep. I think he's also probably interested in surreal art. And most of his art up until this point is pretty realistic, you know, pretty dramatically realistic. You know, Taxi Driver does kind of feel like a nightmare at times, but Raging Bull, shot in black and white, almost feels like documentary. It's. Somebody put a camera in Jake LaMotta's family's house, and you're like, oh, my God, I'm not supposed to be seeing this. So this is tremendously different with the way the camera's moving. Like, we're talking about the way that things keep escalating and getting worse and worse. And this feeling of just like. It's almost like, you know, the feeling when, like, a bug is crawling on you and you're itching and you're like, God, get that off of me. Like, the movie kind of feels like that sometimes. And he's just well suited to it. And maybe he is just channeling those cokey nights, you know, those so many nights of being completely consumed by baby coke daddy.

[Bill Simmons]

Plus, like, nobody had any idea that how bad coke was for you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, hey, is this bad for us? I don't know. Jenny's in the bathroom with her nose bleeding, but I think she'll be okay after this movie. Goodfellas is five years later. He also does Last Temptation of Christ, kind of writes the ship. But then Goodfellas is when.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, you're forgetting two things that I think are pretty critical. One is the color of money and the color of money.

[Bill Simmons]

Filmmaker right after.

[Sean Fennessey]

And that same thing, that camera is flying across the pool table. And I think it's because he's working with Michael Ballhaus. So Michael Ballhaus is German cinematographer.

[Bill Simmons]

CR's guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

CR's guy, they start working together.

[Bill Simmons]

Ballhaus, Hive.

[Sean Fennessey]

They make seven movies together, all bangers. And he's the one who, with Thelma Schoonmaker's editing style, they build this kind of new version of the Scorsese movie. So you got Color of Money. And then the second thing that you got that I really like that is a little underrated, is his segment of New York Stories, which is called Life Lessons. It's Nick Nolte and Rosanna Arquette. Nick Nolte plays a painter, and Rosanna Arquette plays, like, his assistant and former lover. If people haven't seen it, it's a weird movie. It's a trilogy. It's like a omnibus movie. Woody Allen, Francis Ford Coppola and Scorsese make a part of those movies. Scorsese's is by far the best to me, but those movies are Coppola's is pretty rough. It stars his daughter Sophia.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And she's very young.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I wouldn't say Woody's is very good either, to be honest. But I love life, life lessons. And so this little pocket of time is what takes us to Goodfellas, Kate, Fear, Casino. Those movies wouldn't happen without these movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's take a break, and then we'll talk about the ladies in this movie. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Life is full of decisions, big and small. And sometimes you make one you can really stand behind. I did this a few times in my life, especially in the mid 2010s after I left Grantland and ESPN. And I was like, you know what? I still think there's an idea for a company that could really work. And then the ringer. And now we're 10 years later, we're still here. State Farm gets it. Making confident choices can make all the difference. That's why with the State Farm personal price plan, you can choose the right amount of coverage to help create an affordable price. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state. All right, just quick on the cast because it's all over the place. And I have a different spot for Griffin Dunn.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

But Roseanne Arquette and Linda Fiorentino in the same movie. I don't even know really how to describe this. As a kid who was alive in 1985, two of the greats. Fiorentino.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is being recorded.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I got it. I was 16.

[Sean Fennessey]

Roseanna Arquette is otherworldly in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

She, in 1985, is in Silverado after hours. Desperately Seeking Susan.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wrote this down, too. Yeah. Cooking.

[Bill Simmons]

And if somebody at age 16 had come up to me and said, you could make out with her, but you have to kill three people, I would have been like, which three?

[Sean Fennessey]

A close friend or like an acquaintance.

[Bill Simmons]

Pick the three.

[Sean Fennessey]

The president.

[Bill Simmons]

You can spend 24 hours with her. You have to kill 10 people.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, would you have killed Ronald Reagan for Rosanna Arquette? Answer the question.

[Bill Simmons]

And she was also an executioner song with Tommy Lee Jones, which is where I first saw her, which is a TV movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

She was so beautiful and so idiosyncratically.

[Bill Simmons]

There's really nobody like her.

[Sean Fennessey]

And her. Her personality, her speaking voice, everything about her is just intoxicating in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I do this sometimes on the rewatchables where I always get mad that somebody didn't wasn't in more good stuff. She's like a first ballot for me for. I just don't understand it. And the parts must have been so bad. And I think there was this mentality in the 80s and 90s where, oh, somebody had their moment for a year. Let's move on to the next actress. And you just kind of got left behind. It's so funny, that Tarantino.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what I was gonna say. But he did. That's why he did this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because he was like, why is no one using this?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, she was like, she's right there.

[Sean Fennessey]

I know, I know.

[Bill Simmons]

She's the one with all the on her face.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's my wife, Trudy. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But, yes. It just. I don't understand it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know. Stop bothering me. That's my favorite Eric Stolts, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Every moment she's in the movie, you're like, can she be in the movie more?

[Sean Fennessey]

I know. I, I, It's a. I don't know if it's a what if. And she did cool stuff. Like, she's in Cronenberg's Crash. She was in, like, Buffalo 66. She was in some cool movies later on. But she, she, she could have been. Should have been just a big mainstream movie star. Obviously, her whole family is in the movies.

[Bill Simmons]

I was gonna do this later. I'll do it now. Like, I don't know. Meg Ryan. Some of the parts Meg Ryan had from basically the late 80s on, people might scoff. She could have had half of those.

[Sean Fennessey]

People might scoff at that. But if you watch her in Desperately Seeking Susan, that's a Meg Ryan part. You know what I mean? Like, she. It's the same kind of a character where you're like. With her. She's the empathetic, like, regular girl.

[Bill Simmons]

She could have been When Harry Met Sally easily.

[Sean Fennessey]

I totally agree. It's a weird one.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like she could have been Kelly McGillis in Top Gun.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, definitely.

[Bill Simmons]

You pick a movie from 86 to, like, 93, and I feel like she could have been the lead dude.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm so loved her. And I also. This is a big reason why I have such a big relation to this ship, to this movie, is because I'm like, this is the Roseanna Arquette movie. This is the movie that, like, got her the most right out of any movie. You know, she's good in, like, 8 million ways to die and stuff like that. But this is the one where she. You can feel Scorsese idealizing that feeling when you meet somebody and you're like, whoa, who is she? Yeah, I want to be closer to her.

[Bill Simmons]

Who she was. Toto was like, let's write Rosanna about Rosanna Arquette. Because she walked into the room and we fucking had to write a song about it.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was that spectacular Captured in the yacht rock documentary. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't understand if some people are just obviously movie stars. I don't understand how some of them don't end up in better movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Fantino is a little more easy to understand because this is CR who couldn't be here because he's away.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We didn't. We didn't intentionally not have CR on this. He's just not here.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I said, stay home, Chris. I got this.

[Bill Simmons]

We were maybe a little worried about the Fantino part because we might have to hose him down. I asked him if he had once one thing for CR to say in the pod.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I guess what he said? Yeah, I want her to step on my neck.

[Bill Simmons]

Now. He said, can you please say that Linda Fiorentino is a CR Throw your life away hall of Famer now especially. I was like, I probably would have said that anyway. But fine.

[Sean Fennessey]

Ripping heaters, making plaster of Paris. Edvard Munch.

[Bill Simmons]

First time you say she's in a bra for no reason, she's just taking.

[Sean Fennessey]

Her top off in front of strangers. Interesting movie.

[Bill Simmons]

She's in this and Vision Quest in the same year. Vision Quest, which is. We already did that on the Rewatchables. But the premise of a high school kid and this hot lady is staying in the upstairs room, and there's no way she'd have sex with him. He's only 17. It's the entire. The whole movie hinges on it. And then, guess what? They have sex.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's the wrestling movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Matt Modine.

[Sean Fennessey]

What's the cycling movie that Matt Modine was in? Or am I thinking of Kevin Bacon? What's his.

[Bill Simmons]

Quicksilver?

[Sean Fennessey]

Quicksilver. Yeah. Okay. All right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He was in a sailing movie, Wind, with Jennifer Gray. Matthew Mode.

[Sean Fennessey]

I haven't seen it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. To be.

[Sean Fennessey]

Got it.

[Bill Simmons]

So Linda Fiorentino, Red Hot.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And then just stops acting for, like, two years, doesn't like it, and then just kind of bounces back and forth.

[Sean Fennessey]

And that's what I'm gonna do with potting. Taking two years off.

[Bill Simmons]

Where's Sean? He's Just gone for two years, and.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm coming back with my last seduction.

[Bill Simmons]

But she cut. She has the ability to come in just red hot for, like, two scenes. And a couple directors realized that some other ones didn't. She got kind of typecast as the femme fatale.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There was, I think, a bunch of other stuff she could have done that they never really unlocked.

[Sean Fennessey]

Real mixed reports on how fun she was to work with over the years.

[Bill Simmons]

It seems like. Yeah, that's. She's definitely. When they talk about the difficult actress group, she gets thrown in there.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who does?

[Bill Simmons]

But when she's on the screen, you're not looking away.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's a presence.

[Bill Simmons]

What's she up to?

[Sean Fennessey]

She is a presence. This is an apartment that features Linda Fiorentino and Roseanne Arquette living together at this time.

[Bill Simmons]

Unbelievable.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

CR Never would have been seen again. He just would have been in plaster.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, he would have been horsed. He would have been in all leather.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Terry Garr.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

CR Is worse. We Photoshop that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. That should be the image that we share this episode with.

[Bill Simmons]

Terry Garr, also in a heater in the mid-80s, because this is when she's one of Letterman's best gaffes guests. She's an established, famous actress from Tootsie and Close Encounters.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's hilarious. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And this is like just Terry Garbian. Terry Gar. An amazing, amazing Letterman guest for the first four years. Like, she just had, like, such a good chemistry with him. He did.

[Sean Fennessey]

They were flirty together.

[Bill Simmons]

Super flirty. He did. The famous episode she did was he did a whole show in his office. They just filmed it in the office. And it was like this experimental show in the office. And at the end of it, he convinced her to take a shower in his bathroom. And she came out with all these towels on, and she's like, I can't believe you're making me do this. And then she went in. They made it so they covered everything. You couldn't see anything. And he just basically dared her to take a shower, and she did it. And it's just, like, fucking crazy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Think that would happen today.

[Bill Simmons]

It would not.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

It would not. But she was, like, ready. She would go on, and she'd be ready for anything with Letterman. And she would go back and forth, and you're always like, why don't these two end up together?

[Sean Fennessey]

It's funny because she is so good as the woman who, like, grabs on a little too quick.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's, like, a little too interested yeah. And you're like. And he's got this other girl in the back of his head and he's kind of been thrown off the scent. But she's very good at that clingy thing.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Catherine o' Hara, who I.

[Sean Fennessey]

Think I'm just really, I think looks smoking hot in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

She looks great.

[Sean Fennessey]

And we don't think of her that way.

[Bill Simmons]

She's Jennifer Aniston.

[Sean Fennessey]

She, you know, it's like, that's the mom from Home Alone. Shit's creek. She's gone on to be this, like, beloved character actress. Beetlejuice. Like, lots and lots of parts in this movie as the Mr. Softy Lady. Chef's Kiss. I love it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It taps into something that I don't really think she did in any other movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. And, you know, she had been, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Guess maybe best in show is the other one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

When. When I forget what her character name is. But she. She had a history.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Everybody she met, there's some sort of, like, energy with her. That SCTV hit and then in movies and then eventually she became Home Alone lady for a while.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. But she is like. She has a sexiness to her that she doesn't. Is not usually asked to tap into because she's usually just playing mom.

[Bill Simmons]

She's good in this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

4.5 million dollar budget made. 10.6 million. Not great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not great.

[Bill Simmons]

Raj. Four stars. Put it on his great movies list. Scorsese's attempt continues to combine comedy and satire with unrelenting pressure and a sense of all pervading paranoia. All pervading paranoia.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pretty much. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Big book. Pauline Kale. Scorsese is using his skills and even his personality like a hired hand making a vacuous, polished piece of consumer goods. All surface. That's a you, Pauline. For me, it's first ever we've had.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Had a few you, Raj. I have to do you. Paulina, do you think we should do.

[Sean Fennessey]

A social media breakout of you cursing out prominent critics of the time?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

String it all together.

[Bill Simmons]

Polished piece of consumer goods. Talk about missing the movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a. That is a gross misunderstanding.

[Bill Simmons]

How are you doing?

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, I think about this sometimes. Doing the big picture. Like, I. We know a little bit too much about how movies are made. Right. We know a little bit too much about the. The production, the backstory. Like, F1 is out this weekend and that's a movie that, like, it was made during the strikes and we did rewrites and the reshoots and you bring some of that Stuff to the conversation. So her saying that this is just like an assignment job, you know, that she's using that as a lens to analyze the movie as opposed to just looking objective, just watching a movie. You can't. There's no way to separate the two things. So I understand, but we don't think about the movie in that way. When I saw it, I didn't think like, oh, this is just Scorsese taking a job so he can get back on the track so that he can eventually make lots of money.

[Bill Simmons]

Why can't he do that?

[Sean Fennessey]

I agree.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, he can't fucking get a job. Maybe he couldn't find a better movie. I don't know. It's very strange.

[Sean Fennessey]

Bad take, bad take by Pauline.

[Bill Simmons]

Categories Most rewatchable scene. Roseanne Arquette's first scene in the diner. Some good camera work going on in that one, too.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love that book.

[Bill Simmons]

Fiorentino back rub scene I have that I wrote down. This is one of my favorite dumb movie devices when somebody's telling a long story that somehow gets rudely interrupted or we never find out the punchline or the money shot of the story.

[Sean Fennessey]

This one's particularly good because he realizes she's asleep just as he's about to complete the story.

[Bill Simmons]

And we never know what happens. I love when they do that. At least I think it was night. I reached up to untie the blindfold.

[Sean Fennessey]

And.

[Bill Simmons]

I saw. One of my favorites is Halloween, the original one. Loomis is looking for Myers grave, and the undertaker is telling this long story. And then he showed up and he's like, where are we? He just interrupts him. We never find out what happened.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's the Carpenter sense of humor.

[Bill Simmons]

The diner scene with Marcy, the second time, my husband was amazing. It's happening.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And the guy who runs the diner says the title in the movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Dick Miller. Yeah, Legendary, that guy.

[Bill Simmons]

The subway token scene I have when the guy won't let him go for an extra dollar.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. The fair went up at midnight and.

[Bill Simmons]

Griffin Dunn looks around. He's like, who's gonna know? And he's like, I could go to a party, get drunk, tell somebody who knows. I love that guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's so funny.

[Bill Simmons]

Marcy dying, even though I have some other thoughts on it. But it fucking kills me when he puts the side up. When he puts the dead body with the arrow.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, that is funny.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just like. So it's. We're at another level of black comedy with that. She just killed herself in the bedroom.

[Sean Fennessey]

Dead body the moment before that, though, it's so funny to me. When he's removing the blanket to reveal that she doesn't have any burns.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

And he's like, damn it, I shouldn't have left. I could have slept with her and she could have not killed herself. This is the darkest dark comedy. It's so good.

[Bill Simmons]

It's blacker than black. It's like a purple comedy. The. The Terry Garcine is just really funny. She's dialing it up, I think the.

[Sean Fennessey]

Terminal bar in general. Going to the bar where her is the bartender and she's like slipping him the notes and her can't get the cash register open. All that stuff is so great.

[Bill Simmons]

And that's like your classic. What the hell is going on here? New York City bar. It's like 1:30 in the morning. There's four people. The leather gu work. The cash register won't open. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And that is a very. I mean, that's. That New York is still alive. Like that's a thing you can find today.

[Bill Simmons]

The punk rock club. Punk. Punk rock club.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

When they're like, Mohawk. This guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Club Berlin.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The Catherine Harrison in the apartment when he's trying to remember the phone number and she's just saying other numbers, which is something I did for 30 years now. You don't. Everyone has the numbers. I say that to my wife all the time. Crazy.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is a great bit.

[Bill Simmons]

She'd be like, okay, so it's 2, 5 and I beg. 5, 9, 8, 7. I think. But that came from this movie. I'd never seen anyone.

[Sean Fennessey]

You just kind of distilled your sense of humor right there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. There's nothing funny. 5, 8, 6, 2, don't. 9, 3, 8, 0. Now I have forgotten the number.

[Sean Fennessey]

What is wrong with you? Are you all right?

[Bill Simmons]

The Verna Bloom. Is that all there is?

[Sean Fennessey]

You got all my ones.

[Bill Simmons]

And then I'd like the ending. I know the ending is super polarizing. They couldn't come up with one. We could talk about it in the research.

[Sean Fennessey]

The drop off in the van or the end credits sequence around the office.

[Bill Simmons]

No, the. The dropout. I like that he's kidnapped in this van. Does it. I mean, they don't know they're kidnapping him and then they turn and he just fall. I actually think it works.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a great story about what happened.

[Bill Simmons]

Said about that, ah, we couldn't come up with the ending. We had to throw this together. I'm like, that ending's great, guys.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's really, really clever. And it makes. It's almost like he woke up from a dream because he ends up where he started it.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, how do they think, how do they feel bad about that ending?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know. I think it's great too. And I, I even just that final thing where the camera's kind of whipping around that office space over the end credits. I just think it's such a per. It's almost like his mind is spinning inside.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Trying to remember, like, did that really just happen to me? It's such a good idea.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So what do you got for most of the watchable?

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, the one that is the most iconic to me is the diner conversation between Rosanna Arquette and Griffin Dunn where she's.

[Bill Simmons]

The second one or the first one?

[Sean Fennessey]

The second. The second one. The one where she's like. My husband was a movie freak. He loved to watch the wizard of Oz over and over again. Surrender Dorothy, all that stuff is just so like baked into the mythos of this movie for me. So that's my favorite.

[Bill Simmons]

I have that as well.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Surrender Dorothy is high comedy.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's hilarious.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't even understand it. I don't know how any writer would come up with that idea.

[Sean Fennessey]

We didn't talk about the background with Joseph Minion, the guy who wrote the movie, but he wrote it when he was 21. It was his senior thesis when he was in film school. And it got bought and then hung around for a few years. Five years. But a lot of the stuff in the first half is all his is like stuff that he was writing. And I think he got an A plus on his thesis.

[Bill Simmons]

I would hope so.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then it went on to get sold as this like wow. Study of the. The male mind in New York City at night. And then I think a lot of the back half is very Scorsese.

[Bill Simmons]

Joe Minion. That's my screen name. Joey Minion or Joey Joseph Minion.

[Sean Fennessey]

Joey Bats Minion.

[Bill Simmons]

Joe Joseph Minion. Sounds like you were a philosopher in the 1500s.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, I mean he's a Joseph Binion book. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the most 1985 thing about this movie? I had four. Did you have a pick?

[Sean Fennessey]

I have a one obvious one which is just SoHo in the 80s that just SoHo doesn't look like this anymore. You still have those kind of cobblestone ish brick streets and you still have those kind of tenement style buildings. But there's just like, you know, J. Crew and Lon Bon down there now, you know, and like eight dollar coffee.

[Bill Simmons]

Shops and then some douchey people too, let's be honest. Sorry.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Soho.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, you hate New York. You can say it out loud. I don't resent New York.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I like. I just don't like getting there. I don't realize why it's like going to London now when it's like.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because the airport, the.

[Bill Simmons]

Everything just. You land and then it's another two plus hours to get in the city.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's no walk in the park coming to lax. I mean, that's not, you know, it.

[Bill Simmons]

I also don't like the power walking situation in New York City these days with all the bikes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, yeah, that's fair.

[Bill Simmons]

And. And guess what? Maybe legalizing everybody being able to smoke pot and blow SM pot smoke. I'm no stranger to pot. Unlike in three blocks with the. I hate the. The pot smoke thing in general. And that sound like an old guy, but wow. Let's have some respect for people with kids pushing strollers.

[Sean Fennessey]

We went to a party last night across the street from the party 7 11. We're walking through the 711 parking lot. There's a guy smoking a joint in the parking lot right next to a police cruiser. And I was like, picture this. 20 years ago, that guy would have been thrown in the clink.

[Bill Simmons]

Why do I have to smell the secondhand pot smoke if I didn't sign up?

[Sean Fennessey]

Just let people live, you know, just.

[Bill Simmons]

Let people live by a bike.

[Sean Fennessey]

So you don't want to be power walking in New York, but you do want to power walk in Los Angeles where people drive like maniacs and there are no sidewalks. Yeah, okay, got it.

[Bill Simmons]

I just. I haven't power walked in New York enough. Because the whole thing where the bikes can just take the left and right turns and you just basically have to make. And I'm listening to a podcast on.

[Sean Fennessey]

My headphones and what do you terminy and Eddie, that's what you got fired up?

[Bill Simmons]

I have three. I have four 1985 things about this movie. Okay, Opening credits. The Geffen Company presents.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, good one.

[Bill Simmons]

How many years were the Geffen Company even making movies?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I'm not that long. Mostly in the 80s, but that was him, like, leveraging his success as a music manager and trying to get into.

[Bill Simmons]

Hollywood, like giving somebody a phone number. I guess that's not necessarily 1985, but it's definitely 80s 90s of like, let me write down your phone number, or else there's no way to get a hold Now. We would just be putting your phone. Now you just be Like, I'll call you on your phone. And now you have my number.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

A Bronson Pinchot cameo. Young Bronson. That felt very 1985 to me. Fresh off his playing Surge in Beverly Hills Cop and his risky business.

[Sean Fennessey]

This was high time for him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, he's about to be balky.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

In Perfect Strangers. You watch Perfect Strangers?

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't.

[Sean Fennessey]

You didn't watch it?

[Bill Simmons]

Wasn't a fan.

[Sean Fennessey]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

Didn't really like balky. I was in high school at that point. I was too old.

[Sean Fennessey]

You think you're better than me?

[Bill Simmons]

I just was. Here's my choice, though. Going all the way across Manhattan in a cab for $6.50.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, he went, like, 90 blocks.

[Sean Fennessey]

Also, he's holding a 20. What is that, like 100 now? No, it's like 50.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like at least a 50.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But, yeah, $6. What is that cab right now? That's $58.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I don't know about that much. It's really expensive. Yeah, really expensive. I don't know. I'm not in cabs as much in New York as I used to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Was there a better title for this movie? Throwing that in.

[Sean Fennessey]

There were other titles.

[Bill Simmons]

So it was originally called One Night in Soho.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Which eventually became an Edgar Wright movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not against One Night in Soho.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that the original script that Minion wrote was called. No. Was it called Lies, or was Lies based on a story that there was, like, a theater director who had told a story similar to meeting a girl in a diner and kind of going on a journey in New York? And I think Minion based it on that, and I think that was called Lies.

[Bill Simmons]

Do we like After Hours as a title?

[Sean Fennessey]

I do. I think it's perfect. You don't like it?

[Bill Simmons]

It's fine. One Night in Soho is pretty good. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then used in a. In a movie about the other Soho, the original Soho in London in 2022 by Edgar Wright.

[Bill Simmons]

What age? The best.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love this specific data point. Martin Scorsese told Griffin Dunn to refrain from sex and sleep during filming in order to get a more realistic feeling of paranoia. And this is what I do. Before every podcast I.

[Bill Simmons]

I had, I had this in the Steven Seagal shitting on himself story that he didn't know was true or not.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. That's just a great idea. A weird note to give someone.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, let's give all the backstory.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

This is what Griffin Dunn said. Also, I love when people talk like this about themselves. Actual quote From Griffin Dunn. Marty knew I was a single man in New York who liked to party. He knew I liked the ladies. And he said it's very important for Paul Hackett to have a look of desire in his eyes throughout the whole movie. That's what gets him in this mess in. In the first place. So I need you not to have sex for the first eight weeks of the shoot. I said, no problem, I can do that. They start the massage scene on a Friday. They go for the weekend. And Griffin Dunn has what he calls a fucking accident. Hooks up with somebody. Monday, they're re filming the scene. He's panting, touching her back. And in the first take he's massaging her. And Marty goes, cut. Griffin, come here. Did you get laid? You ruined this whole scene. Like he sniffed out that he got laid. You up this whole scene, the whole movie. I trusted you. And he was like really angry.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's great stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

How does he know?

[Sean Fennessey]

He's the master.

[Bill Simmons]

Ultimate catholic.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's the maestro.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Anyway, that story is amazing.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a good one.

[Bill Simmons]

Not as good as Steven Seagal shitting on himself as he's being choked out on the set about for justice. But really good.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pretty close. Yeah, that's. This is an amazing career you've made for yourself. Thank you. Roseanne Arquette, 1985. It's gotta be one of what staged the best. You already mentioned it. Desperately Seeking Susan. That's a really good movie.

[Bill Simmons]

But for life.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. In the world. When was Rosanna 84? The Toto Song?

[Bill Simmons]

I think it was like a year.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe a year before come back to her apex Mountain. I bet. And then the big one for me with age, the best is the Home Alone Parents preview.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I have that as well.

[Sean Fennessey]

Get one moment where we see Catherine o' Hara and John talking together. We don't even hear them talk. We just see them through a window. And then soon they will be two of the most famous parents in movie history.

[Bill Simmons]

Honestly, by the way. And looking for somebody again.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's right. Someone who's lost.

[Bill Simmons]

I have the weird New York characters because you could have even added a couple. But specifically the incense cab driver, subway worker guy that we mentioned and then diner guy are just like three so New Yorky New York characters.

[Sean Fennessey]

Both diner guys. Dick Miller and Victor Argo, also a legendary New York actor. Yeah, they're both. Those are the two guys pouring coffee in that spot.

[Bill Simmons]

I love vigilante mobs just in general and movies when people just holding candles at 4:30 in the morning. I have movies that Use real phone numbers. I always enjoy it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, good.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I'm at 2, 4, 3, and like. Oh, they used a real one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. When you don't hear a 555. Yeah, I like that. Would you ever call one of the numbers you heard in a movie?

[Bill Simmons]

No, but I know people do that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I like crazy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wait, do you want to give out your phone number right now on the pod? Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I like crazy New York City cab ride scenes because we've all been in those cabs when they're just, like, weaving through traffic, and you're just like, oh, my God, am I gonna die?

[Sean Fennessey]

So there's a special feature on the Blu Ray of this movie that's a conversation between Scorsese and Fran Leibowitz. They're old friends and frankly, what's also been living in New York for 100 years. And she says about that moment when Griffin Dunn's character gets in the car and the cab just takes off, she said, you nailed it. Because at that time, there was a change in New York in the 70s. All the cab drivers were, like, Jewish and Italian American guys, and they all were just, like family men who were trying to make a living. And then something changed where the only people who drove cabs were maniacs, right? And she's like, these maniacs had lead foots, and they just drove.

[Bill Simmons]

Just want to get to the next stop.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. So he had his finger on the.

[Bill Simmons]

Pulse of something I'll probably get blamed for that is really funny. When he sees a woman shoot the guy in the. In the apartment.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love that part.

[Bill Simmons]

It's so weird. And he's. He's not, like, horrified. He's just like, I'll probably get blamed for that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, we. I haven't.

[Bill Simmons]

That's when the movie's just gone nuts.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I haven't said, like, there's Hitchcock and Fritz Lang. Noir movies are a huge influence on this movie. And that's, like, such a perfect Rear Window moment where, like, you see something you weren't supposed to see, and then we never think about it again, Right? Like, it never comes up again. Someone got shot in this neighborhood?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

No. No sirens, no cop cars, nothing.

[Bill Simmons]

Take the Russian in the Sopranos. The Russian in the Woods, Right? Surrender, Dorotheus. Hilarious. Just Cheech and Chong being in this movie is a wood stage of best.

[Sean Fennessey]

Smart move.

[Bill Simmons]

Chong said it was like we were in our own Cheech and Chong movie within a Scorsese movie, which is kind of true. And that's all I have for what stage?

[Sean Fennessey]

The Best I did forget to mention. Well, I'll get to another category.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the next award is the Sean Fantasy Award for stealth homage. That gives every movie nerd a criteria. Orgasm.

[Sean Fennessey]

I just ruined it. I think Rear Window is my favorite one. I mean, there's a lot of them, and a lot of them are about, like, modern art. There's plenty of Louis Bunuel in the movie with the surrealism that you're finding and the Edvard Munsch painting and the plaster of Paris sculpture. But I like seeing that. That. That gal get shot or that guy shoot that. That girl shoot that guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Big Kahuna Burger Award for Best Use of Food and Drink. The Uneaten diner Cheeseburger. I always like when the.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what I have too.

[Bill Simmons]

Brings it over. Just feel. It almost feels like a character for two minutes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I. Can we just talk very quickly about the Mr. Softy truck?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you grow up with Mr. Softy?

[Bill Simmons]

Didn't really have him.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is. Mr. Softy is a fucking religion on Long Island. Or at least it was when I was a kid. And there were two ice cream trucks. There was your workaday ice cream truck.

[Bill Simmons]

We had that one.

[Sean Fennessey]

All the regular stuff that had all.

[Bill Simmons]

The blow pops and all the different things.

[Sean Fennessey]

Everything in the wrapping, you know. And then the Mr. Softy truck was just dispensed by the machine. It was soft serve ice cream and.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounds great.

[Sean Fennessey]

You get it with sprinkles. You get it with the candy shell, you know, the cherry shell. And when it came, it was like Christmas morning. It's. Mr. Softy was elite.

[Bill Simmons]

So Apex Mountain for Mr. Softie.

[Sean Fennessey]

It would probably be me at like nine years old after a baseball game.

[Bill Simmons]

Big Kahuna Burger Award could technically be Mr. Softy, but we don't actually see a Mr. Softie in this, so I don't think it's eligible. Great Shot Gorda Award. I don't even know where to go on this. I'll just let you pick.

[Sean Fennessey]

So there's the keys, which is an incredibly difficult shot to pull off. Linda Fiorentino goes up to the roof after he gets the address of where Marcy is, and she throws the keys down off the roof. And the keys are coming right at.

[Bill Simmons]

The camera for no reason. You think it's leading to something and it really doesn't. It's just a move.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I think. Well, I mean, if you wanted to speak metaphorically, you could be like, sharp objects are racing towards this guy. You know what I mean? Like, this is danger at the very Beginning of the movie setting us up for like almost don't go in there. But that shot apparently was really hard to do. Really dangerous for Griffin Dunn to keep trying to do. But it's very, very memorable. I do think that shot of him flying in the cab where he's sitting in the back and it's bouncing and you're hearing the flamenco music and you're like, what is going on? This movie has this weird pace and energy that I've never seen before. And then I mentioned my favorite by far is the zoom in on Marcy when she winks to the camera. That's my favorite shot.

[Bill Simmons]

I like when he's. It's like in the last 20 minutes he's outdoors and he's kind of looking up and it's like a big crane shot that comes down on him. It's just good.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a great one.

[Bill Simmons]

Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness Award for best needle Drop. We do have the Monkees in this movie and we do have Joni Mitchell, but I think the winner. Is that All There Is by Peggy Lee. A favorite song of my mom's.

[Sean Fennessey]

A great song.

[Bill Simmons]

I think she said it's one of the great. It's one of the great divorce songs.

[Sean Fennessey]

I believe that it was featured in a very memorable episode of Mad Men at the end credits in a similar. Like Post dawn and no Madman.

[Bill Simmons]

Was it Sopranos?

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe it was Sopranos.

[Bill Simmons]

Sopranos too.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe it was Soprano. I don't. I thought I could have sworn there was a Betty and Don sequence.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably was.

[Sean Fennessey]

Where? Anyway, there's a couple of others. I like one. I think I like the Last Train of Clarksville Monkeys Drop because Terry Garr was in Head the Monkeys movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Also pretty good song.

[Sean Fennessey]

Great song.

[Bill Simmons]

I was kind of listening to it going, ah, might throw this on a summer mix.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, the Monkeys are good, man. Yeah. Pay to Come by Bad Brains in the Club. And then I think Mozart's symphony number 45 at the beginning of the movie is pretty good. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Wolfie, Pay to come. But it's spelled C U M just for the record.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thanks for clarifying that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we noticed that in the soundtrack.

[Sean Fennessey]

When I'm not going to tell you about that.

[Bill Simmons]

You know you're really serious when you're flipping the. Flipping the C U. I'm sorry.

[Sean Fennessey]

Punk rock icons. When are we doing Amadeus? Speaking of Wolfie, that.

[Bill Simmons]

That would be Oscar winners month.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is that something you're going to do?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think so.

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to run out of Oliver. There's like five movies left.

[Sean Fennessey]

What other Oscar winners you want to do? There's five movies left. What are you talking about?

[Bill Simmons]

Annie Hall.

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting. Who's going to be on that one?

[Bill Simmons]

Probably be a lottery. You just get chosen to be in it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cool. I love it.

[Bill Simmons]

There's some good Oscar winners left the chest. Rockwell and Brocklanders award for best character name. It's clearly Horst.

[Sean Fennessey]

I will give.

[Bill Simmons]

Was Horsed his first name or his last name?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it was kind of like Bob Horst.

[Bill Simmons]

Frankie Horst. Horst Lewis. Which way would you go? Horse Johnson.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's just Horsed.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like also the best stealth dog Fabio for. If you'd like. If you love this movie and you name your dog Horst, it's a good. And then somebody else gets it. They're like after hours. That'd be a good one.

[Sean Fennessey]

I do think second place is Kiki Bridges. Kiki Bridges.

[Bill Simmons]

Kiki Bridges.

[Sean Fennessey]

Downtown Sculptor. That's a good one.

[Bill Simmons]

Marcy is also just a good.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is a good name. It's a game, a name we've lost from the culture. Nobody names our kid Marcy anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

You have a Sean Fantasy Flex category.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Let me see which is the right one to do.

[Bill Simmons]

You can do two if you want.

[Sean Fennessey]

So to me, scene stealing location. The Den of thieves Benihana award is Terminal Bar. The bar that they go to, which was still open for. I think it's finally gone now.

[Bill Simmons]

The bar John Hard Works that John.

[Sean Fennessey]

Hart is the bartender in. Which was a bar you could go to downtown. It is gone. Right. I don't. I was reading about it last night.

[Bill Simmons]

I like how it's set up. It's like very. That. That whole. It's on the one side.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. You walk in the bars on the right. But it's got the curve on the bar. Yeah. I really love a bar like that where it feels like you can get a cup of coffee and get a beer at the same time. That's kind of like my perfect bar experience. I don't want to be in a loud bar that is just like running vertically and everybody's standing and trying to budge in to get a drink. I want open space. I want some tables, and I want to feel like it's never full.

[Bill Simmons]

It looks like the Rocky one Bar that they're.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

That they're all watching the fight in.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

The same kind of setup, though. The TV at the top and.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, that would be my scene. Stealing location.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good one. The Butch's Girlfriend award for weak link of the Film. Just walk home. It's 90 blocks.

[Sean Fennessey]

This was my pick.

[Bill Simmons]

Do it in an hour.

[Sean Fennessey]

My picking knit is like, just leave. Just go.

[Bill Simmons]

How about this? There's more than one subway stop. It's beyond a picking knit. It's like, oh, I couldn't get in that subway stop. Just walk two blocks and go to the next subway stop and maybe that guy will let you leave for 50 cents.

[Sean Fennessey]

Great point. I hadn't thought of that.

[Bill Simmons]

There's subway stops every two blocks.

[Sean Fennessey]

I also think walking, even if it was considered dangerous, you're being chased by an angry mob. Like, there's nothing more dangerous than people who want to.

[Bill Simmons]

I guess it rains at some point, so maybe that's why you're not doing it.

[Sean Fennessey]

But walking in the rain in New York City is a way of life.

[Bill Simmons]

90 hour 15.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You can't get mugged because he doesn't have any money, doesn't have anything. Nothing to take.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just as well. I mean, he doesn't have any dignity either, because Marcy killed herself.

[Bill Simmons]

Just go. Go two blocks to the next subway. Just keep trying subway stops until somebody lets you in or you just hop over. I'm with you, Wood Stage the worst. Griffin Dunn's unibrow is just bizarre in this movie. I don't really understand.

[Sean Fennessey]

I thought about putting that in the most 1985 thing about it.

[Bill Simmons]

I just don't get it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Does he even have that in. In London? I don't know. It's a weird thing because he doesn't have it in future movies. Somebody is obviously like, griffin, you got to take care of this. That has aged pretty bad. I have some other. I have a couple of other what's age.

[Bill Simmons]

I had SoHo as well, like that. It's what's age the worst? It's aged the worst than that. I think SoHo is more fun when it was like this. Well, I miss weird.

[Sean Fennessey]

Never been knifed in Alley. That's in play, I think, at that time.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, the dumbasses who cancel the Last Temptation of Christ, that's not ideal. You don't want to tell Martin Scorsese he can't make a cool movie. And actually a lot of his career in this century is him convincing people to give him a ton of money for movies. But here's the most important what's aged the worst? For me, the name of this character is Paul Hackett. When I was a kid, Paul Hackett was the offensive coordinator for the New York jets, and he was one of the worst offensive coordinators in the NFL. And he was kind of. My introduction to the jets will never have a good offense, which has been a characteristic of my Life. Cut to 2023. Aaron Rodgers is traded to the New York jets. And who does he bring with him? Paul Hackett's son, Nate Hackett. Nathaniel Hackett.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I get that feeling all over again. And Nate Hackett, man, he just sucked at calling plays. And I can't get. So Paul Hackett, the character you share.

[Bill Simmons]

The name, it's just kind of ruined.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's like. It's up for me. I can't. I don't want to hear that name out loud.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a really good one. The Ruffalo Hand of Ruben Partridge Overacting. Word. I'm gonna go. Griffin Dunn here, because he dials it up a couple times. He does be my choice.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a manic movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. There's a couple times when he just gets mad at Marcy, and I'm like, where'd that. That. Why'd that come from?

[Sean Fennessey]

We're sure it's not Will Patton as Horst? He's like the eyeliner and the tenor of his. The timbre of his voice, and he's like. Like, what was Horst really gonna do?

[Bill Simmons]

That's almost the underacting.

[Sean Fennessey]

What are you gonna do, Horst? You're gonna. You're gonna kill Joey Horst. Horst Lewis.

[Bill Simmons]

Frederick Horst the Sierra. Thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest. Take a word. I have one.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have three.

[Bill Simmons]

You have three?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, do two and I'll do one.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is the top three Scorsese movie of all time.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

This. It's Goodfellas, king of comedy in this movie. And that leads directly to my second hot take, which is that his 80s are better than his 90s and maybe even better than his 70s. Wow. This is. This is scorching. This is a hot take category.

[Bill Simmons]

You think his 80s are better than his 90s?

[Sean Fennessey]

Would you like me to read his 80s? Yeah. Raging Bull, the King of Comedy. After Hours, the Color of Money, the Last temptation of Christ, plus life lessons. Five features, one short. His 90s. Goodfellas, Cape Fear, Age of Innocence, Casino, Bringing out the Dead. Now, Goodfellas is my favorite movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but that's. That's pretty soft after the top two 70s.

[Sean Fennessey]

Boxcar Bertha, mean Street's Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, Taxi Driver, New York, N.Y. 2000s. 2000s is Gangs of New York, the Aviator, the Departed, 2000s. There are some people who could make the case that the 2000 and tens are his best. You wouldn't But I might. Shutter Island. Hugo Wolf of Wall Street. Silence the Irishman.

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you're right. Thank you. I think it is the 80s.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you. What's yours?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if this is a war crime, but it's a crime against humanity and a crime against pop culture and entertainment and fun. I don't know how Linda Fiorentino was never on the Sopranos.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I just can't believe David Chase that up and I have a great deal of respect for him. How did she not have a three to four episode arc with Tony Soprano? I think it would have been. Maybe it was. It was too electric and too powerful and David Chase was worried that it could lead to some sort of world war.

[Sean Fennessey]

It just feels like there can only be one situation with Annabella Siora. Like Annabella Sciora as Gloria. That's. That's in the zone.

[Bill Simmons]

Could she have been a Soprano cousin that comes back?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And used to tease Tony as a kid.

[Sean Fennessey]

I like her as like maybe like a. Like a milfier or gets involved with Christopher, comes in with Christopher and kind of maybe like messes with her son.

[Bill Simmons]

How is she not in the Sopranos universe? I just don't understand it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is Linda Fiorentino alive? Like.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, she's alive.

[Sean Fennessey]

When was the last time she was in a movie?

[Bill Simmons]

She's alive. Well, she was in Men in Black and Dogma.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

In the late 90s. And Soprano starts in 99 and there's six years there where she could have been in any. She could have been the next door neighbor. She could have been Jean Cusimano, whatever her name was. Yeah, there's. It just could have. She could have been married to Artie Buco. Like, hey, I never got that.

[Sean Fennessey]

That one. I forgot that woman's name. But she's. She's.

[Bill Simmons]

So I'm saying, I don't know how there wasn't a place for her somewhere. She could have done a one episode arc where she's just fucking with Tony and then Tony kills her. Like, I don't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

I always think about this, but. Okay, let's just game this out. Linda Fiorentino, after Dogma in 99, her last major starring role, she's in the following movies. Ordinary decent Criminal, what planet are you from and where the money is. Those are all studio movies. 2002, she makes Liberty standstill and then nothing for seven years. She's in a movie called Once more with feeling in 2009 and then never works again.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think maybe there was Some. Maybe there was some off the set baggage. Who knows?

[Sean Fennessey]

I get it. But here's an important question. How does this person make money? How is this person alive? I always think about this when you're like, you've been an actor since you're 19, right? You work, you stop working.

[Bill Simmons]

She invested. Maybe she bought some, like, Apple stock.

[Sean Fennessey]

It doesn't seem like she's married.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't have questions.

[Sean Fennessey]

Some questions, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Should we get her on a podcast? Should she host a podcast?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know about that.

[Bill Simmons]

I just felt like she could have had one to three episodes on Sopranos.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's a great take. When are you doing Jade?

[Bill Simmons]

Never. That movie's awful. I saw that in the theater with Nikaida, my buddy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, you made it sound like that, like he was a famous person.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's one of my friends that you have to say both of his names.

[Sean Fennessey]

Got it. Okay. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

We saw Color of Night and Jade in the theater.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you guys hold hands?

[Bill Simmons]

No, we go see weird movies together. Speaking of weird, the Mallory Rubin Award for Did this movie need a better sex scene?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that's kind of the point.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to say no. Yeah, but you also could have talked me into a yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just because of how you feel about Marcy?

[Bill Simmons]

No, not with Marcy. I think the. I think the punk club could have gotten weird. Not. Maybe not with Horst, but something could have been going on in the sculpture place.

[Sean Fennessey]

The bouncer.

[Bill Simmons]

Bouncer. Okay, one more break and then we'll do casting. What ifs? This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation. It's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply in the wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2025. Terms and [e-mail] with PayPal. I can pay now or pay in four. No interest and no fees. Now feast your ears on this prime cut musical meat. You can pay your own way. Don't just pay PayPal.

[Sean Fennessey]

Subject to approval eligibility fairs and learn.

[Bill Simmons]

More paypal.com all right, casting what ifs? This was originally supposed to be directed by Tim Burton and then Scorsese wanted to be involved and he just stepped aside because he said, I respectfully withdraw. I will never stand in the way of. Martin Scorsese wants to make a movie and that's it.

[Sean Fennessey]

So this is a double casting what ifs to me because Tim Burton doesn't make this movie. And in this same year, he goes on to make Pee Wee's Big Adventure, which is huge movie for me personally and would be an amazing. I'll step on the feature category. Double feature with this movie about a man child thrust into a world he doesn't understand, seeking something he can't get, and eventually finding salvation by going back home.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if that one's going to be in the rewatchables anytime soon.

[Sean Fennessey]

Kiwi's Big Adventure.

[Bill Simmons]

You might be hosting that one without me.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow. You don't like. You were too old?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I was never a Pee Wee Herman guy. Some people are. I'm not against it. I don't judge.

[Sean Fennessey]

I thought he didn't. I mean, I was a kid when those movies came out, so having the Saturday morning show, the preview show was pretty big. But Tim Burton. Tim Burton was an all time genius to me and then just stopped being a genius completely in 2000. Like everything he did between 1985 and 2000 I loved. And then kind of never again.

[Bill Simmons]

I think his hair just got really heavy and it started impinging on his brain.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's probably what it was.

[Bill Simmons]

That was my theory.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

There's no real more casting what ifs, except for they really had trouble casting the Linda Fiorentino part.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

And Griffin Dunn said Linda intimidated the shit out of Marty and me. She came in like she didn't give a damn whether or not she got the part. And it made her seem like Veronica Lake. Marty and I looked at each other and said, that's Kiki. Because Griffin Dunn was one of the producers of this movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you want to talk about that really quickly?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Same in. Amy Robinson owned a company.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. So well, on Fiorentino, in that conversation with friendly wits, I mentioned the only person he uses the adjective the great in front of is Linda Fiorentino. And Scorsese very clearly is like the great Linda Fiorentino. And then he's just like, yeah, Rosanna Arquette, Griffin Dunn.

[Bill Simmons]

These other people couldn't find a place in Goodfellas for.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a good point. It's a good point. Shoot. Now, that.

[Bill Simmons]

That couldn't have found a place in Casino for her. Yeah. She could have been a goomar.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. So Griffin Dunn and Amy Robinson. Abby Robinson was the female lead of Mean streets in the 70s and had worked with Scorsese over the years. And Griffin Dunn and Amy Robinson formed this production company which I think is called Triple Play, and they start producing movies. They produced actually a lot of really good movies over the years. They make a Joan Micklin silver movie in 1982 called Chilly Scenes of Winter. Very good movie. Then in 1983, they make a movie with John Sayles called Baby, it's you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Starring Roseanne Arquette and Vincent Spano. Vincent Spano.

[Bill Simmons]

And never happened for him.

[Sean Fennessey]

And shot by Michael Ballhouse.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And without that movie, we don't have After Hours either, because they bring Michael Ballhouse to Scorsese, I think Roseanne Arquette and their relationship, they all go together and so. And they also produced One Year Later, Running on Empty, the Sidney Lumet movie with Judd Hirsch about The family of 1968 rebels on the Run. I don't mind that.

[Bill Simmons]

Phoenix.

[Sean Fennessey]

Good movie. Yeah, pretty good movie. So they. They are like, really good producers, in addition to Griffin being kind of a movie star for a minute there.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and he also had. He was the son of Dominic Dunn.

[Sean Fennessey]

He was. His. His sister tragically murdered.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And then his sister was murdered. And that led to Dominic Dunn throwing himself in a true crime and led to the peak of him in the 90s, which I think was my number one. A magazine is coming out. I'm most excited to read this person moment, like 94, 95. Him writing about OJ was like the apex mountain for me for. I can't wait until this insanity fair at that time.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like all that mattered.

[Sean Fennessey]

He wrote amazing stories. He's. He was a fascinating character.

[Bill Simmons]

He really was. And he had good books, too. I liked all of his books.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's a really, really great writer. And his aunt and uncle were John Gregory Dunn and Joan Didion.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, and Joan Didion.

[Sean Fennessey]

And he has. Griffin Dunn has kind of become like. I don't know if he's an estate manager, but he's somebody who, like, helps shepherd a lot of the legacy of.

[Bill Simmons]

Didion and John and pops into some movies from time to time.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. He still acts, for sure. But while we're talking about movies, I just want to recommend if people haven't read a book called the Studio that John Gregory Dunn wrote, that is about how a Movie studio operates. It's one of the greatest. It's not a novel, it's a nonfiction book. It's one of the greatest books about Hollywood ever written. It's like a little underrated. And since we're in the done universe, give it a shout.

[Bill Simmons]

Best that guy Word. Is Griffin Dunn a that guy?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think so.

[Bill Simmons]

He's Griffin. I think werewolf. Plus this. He makes him Griffin Dunn.

[Sean Fennessey]

I agree. You put his name on top of the poster, you're kind of. You're good to go.

[Bill Simmons]

Is Horst that guy Will?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think so.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Because he's a member of the Titans are no Way Out.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. On no Way Out. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What was Hackman's name? And he was like, I don't remember. At the end when he's about to kill himself.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah. Horse is kind of a warm up for the crazy assistant to the secretary of Defense in no Way Out. Is he Secretary of Defense in that movie? He is, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's also a classic. You didn't have any hair and now you have a full head of hair actor. I always enjoy those.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, he's a very reliable.

[Bill Simmons]

He's an Armageddon or one of those.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, he's an Armageddon.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean he's in. He's like in constantly on tv. Is he in the Taylor Sheridan universe now? Will Patton, he's.

[Bill Simmons]

I always like seeing him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, he's a great actor. Really good act.

[Bill Simmons]

He market corrected Terry Kinney a little bit. They were head to head there for a while.

[Sean Fennessey]

When's the Oz rewatch pod?

[Bill Simmons]

Whenever you want.

[Sean Fennessey]

Emerald City.

[Bill Simmons]

Van is watching him right now.

[Sean Fennessey]

Back to Emerald City. My. That guys were Dick Miller, Victor Argo and Larry Block. Who is the taxi.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, those. I mean those are literally that guys.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, old school. That guys.

[Bill Simmons]

DM Waiters award. What a category. Terry Garr, Catherine o' Hara, Linda Fiorentino, Will Patton, Vernon Bloom and Cheech and Chong. I also as good of a Dion waiters as it's going to get.

[Sean Fennessey]

I also had John Hurd and John Hurd. Speaking of the Sopranos, legendary Sopranos player.

[Bill Simmons]

I have Fantino winning.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, I'll roll with that.

[Bill Simmons]

But she's just out of control. I don't know what she's doing in this movie, but it's captivating.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Another like how do you make money person. I guess she's selling those plaster of Paris bagels.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You got one of those.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't recasted couch Director City. So let's have the Griffin Dunn conversation right here.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

This is the best we could do in 1985 as a lead actor.

[Sean Fennessey]

He produced the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I get it. Can I offer you Tom Hanks?

[Sean Fennessey]

You can.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I offer you as Tom Hanks as the answer of Cruise or Hanks?

[Sean Fennessey]

You can.

[Bill Simmons]

Hanks wins.

[Sean Fennessey]

I accept.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I offer you 1985? Right at a splash, about to make a bunch of weird movies before his 1990 and does league of Their Own in his career, he becomes Tom Hanks. I think this would have been a really good Tom Hanks movie. It's perfect because Tom Hanks isn't, like, really a horny guy necessarily. So watching him try to awkwardly get laid, I think he could have been. I think there's comic timing with him. That would have been better. I just think it's a better movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think Tom Hanks is very coky.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you see Punchline?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a good point. That's one of the very few times where it feels like inside of Tom Hanks is chaos.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I offer you Michael Keaton?

[Sean Fennessey]

Now, that is amazing. That would be amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

Is he too horny or, like, too.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, that would have been great.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that's better.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Michael Keaton. So coming off Night Shift, he's done gung ho and Mr. Mom. He's about to do Johnny Dangerously. Maybe one of these.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, Johnny Dangerously is right before Griffin Dunn is in Johnny Dangerously. They play brothers in Johnny Dangerously.

[Bill Simmons]

It's better with Michael Keaton. It's better with either of them. But, yeah, Keaton's better.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love Griffin Dunn in this movie. There's not a lot about this movie I would change. Like I said, it's a huge favorite of mine. But Michael Keaton does have that, like, I just blew a line energy and he would be really good. You know what? It could have been. I'm not saying I would have liked this, but would have made a little bit of sense. Is Steve Guttenberg.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, wow.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, like, he was, like, the right kind of actor.

[Bill Simmons]

How about Andrew McCarthy? A little young, maybe four years later. I actually had some. If they made this movie in different years, who the perfect person.

[Sean Fennessey]

What about Judge Reinhold?

[Bill Simmons]

Judge Reinhold. Well, so 1990. John Cusack.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. He's clearly a few Years later.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. 1996. 97. Rage. Josh Hamilton.

[Sean Fennessey]

100. Yeah. Any of the Noah Bound Back players.

[Bill Simmons]

Would have been good.0405 range. I think we get Phil Hoffman.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. I mean, I have Phil Hoffman as an answer to a category here. I would have had him as Tom Shore, the bartender in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

201011 range. Jesse Eisenberg.

[Sean Fennessey]

You made all these notes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow. Should we remake After Hours with Eisenberg?

[Bill Simmons]

Hater is somewhere in here. I think this is a great Bill Hader movie. I don't know exactly what point of his career. He's got to be a little younger.

[Sean Fennessey]

Bill must love this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm sure. But couldn't you see Hayter in this movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, but he got started a little bit later.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like as a 2013.14 range.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

And then I couldn't come up with now I was thinking Chalamet, but it's probably too handsome.

[Sean Fennessey]

Too much of a.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's the kind of movie that would be interesting if he made it.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know who it should be?

[Bill Simmons]

Who?

[Sean Fennessey]

Cooper Hoffman.

[Bill Simmons]

Cooper Hoffman. Love that guy. That's a good one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He might still be too young. I think he's like 22. That's a good one, though.

[Sean Fennessey]

How old was Griffin Dunn when he made this?

[Bill Simmons]

Probably in his, like, late 20s, early 30s.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Half ass. Internet research. One of Scorsese's contributions involved the dialogue between Paul and the doorman at Club Berlin, which was inspired by Franz Kafka's before the Law. And Scorsese said the short story reflected his frustration toward the production of the Last Temptation of Christ. Just Marty.

[Sean Fennessey]

Put yourself in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's why when you see Pauline Kale saying like, this is like impersonal or whatever, it's like it's all him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Rosanna Arquette said a lot of the people involved in After Hours were regulars at the New York bar and restaurant Cafe Central. They would gather their, drink our, eat and be married. A lot of artists, Griffin Dunn and Amy were there all the time. De Niro and Christopher Walken were always in. Bruce Willis was the bartender.

[Sean Fennessey]

Whoa. He has bartender energy.

[Bill Simmons]

Griffin Dunn said, we partied hard at Cafe Central. Incredible place. The biggest movie stars in the world hung out there. Not one paparazzi knew about it. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Cafe Central.

[Bill Simmons]

This is the John Herd. This is all from the oral history that I think Aramel did, so you can read it. Griffin Dunn and Amy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Were you an airmail subscriber?

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

They wanted to cast John Herd. Marty said, I think he's incredibly talented, but I'm a little worried he's got a reckless reputation, which he did. John was quite a carouser and then they convinced him to do it. He's John Herd getting it done in the 80s.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's one of those guys who like. Is it really like that? Handsome?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I think in Big Trying to played handball with Josh Baskin.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's in Chilly Scenes of Winter. The other Griffin Dunn Amy Robinson movie. Obviously he's in Home Alone. And I'm always happy to see him.

[Bill Simmons]

Me too.

[Sean Fennessey]

But he just looks like one of my dad's friends.

[Bill Simmons]

He had a good Sopranos run. And then I think he died.

[Sean Fennessey]

He did. He did. He was a really, really good actor.

[Bill Simmons]

They had to cheat with soho because it was already getting gentrified when they were making the film. So they had to. To do some Chinatown, Little Italy and Tribeca to pack.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was wondering about that. If it was already too late to make it seem like it was this dangerous place.

[Bill Simmons]

My last two things are just from research. Because I was fascinated on all the people that are in this movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Griffin Dunn, best friends since childhood with Carrie Fisher. And then in the documentary Bright Lights. The two of them reminisced about when he took her virginity because she considered it a burden. And as an act of friendship in London in the early 70s, they decided to have sex so she wouldn't be a virgin anymore. That's on the Internet.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's very exciting.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't expect to have a reaction.

[Sean Fennessey]

That must have been very exciting for him.

[Bill Simmons]

Linda Fiorentino had a relationship with Anthony Pellicano in the period leading to his 2008 trial and conviction.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wait, what happened? You didn't know about the McTiernan thing? Did this come up in DHCV? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was like, what the hell, man?

[Bill Simmons]

Pelcano is being investigated. Luna Fantino started dating former FBI agent Mark Rossini. Law enforcement agent said this was her attempt to assist Pellicano with information.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

Fiorentino said told Rossini as they were getting involved, she was researching a screenplay based on Pelacano's case. He then gave her searches of government computers for information to Fian Fiorentino. Who then gave the files to Pelcano's lawyer in a failed effort to help him avoid going to jail for 15 years. And then Rossini had to plead guilty as well. So she was in two relationships with two guys who went to jail. That might be part of the reason she's not acting.

[Sean Fennessey]

I did not know this.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. Just guessing.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is shocking.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Apex Mountain.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wait. She dated an FBI agent to get things from him to help her boyfriend was under. Under investigation by the FBI.

[Bill Simmons]

Then to get.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a movie. That's your girl. Linda.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like, she could have gone three episodes with Tony Soprano. They could have figured it out.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think so, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mountain. Griffin Dunn. I'm gonna say yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, without question.

[Bill Simmons]

Rosanna Arcade, 100, 1985.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Without question.

[Bill Simmons]

Hard cap, all caps. Yes. Linda Fantino. Last Seduction, 1994. Which she should have got nominated for an Oscar, but they had released it on HBO first.

[Sean Fennessey]

She. She's incredible in the Last Seduction. But probably Men in Black. I mean, Men in Black was a massive success, bigger than any other movie she'd ever been a part of. And she was the star.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, can I make the case for Last Seduction?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you know this whole thing about how she should have won the Oscar that year?

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like we've talked about it before, dude.

[Bill Simmons]

They couldn't sell. They couldn't get the movie funded to be in theaters, so they sold it to hbo.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

It ran on HBO for a couple weeks, and then the movie gained steam. And they did this whole. They started. And they basically did the movie red carpet thing with it. And she started winning all these awards, but it was ruled in choice, whatever. But they were like, it can. It was on TV first. You're not eligible. And that was the year Jessica Lange won for Blue sky, which had been made four years earlier. And then, like, that was Jody Foster Nell. But it's just like a. It's. It's like a particularly awful. Best actress.

[Sean Fennessey]

Miranda Richardson and Tom and Viv. Winona Ryder and Little Women. And show some respect to Susan Sarandon and the Client. My beloved Reggie Love. That's weird. That's interesting. She could have won.

[Bill Simmons]

In 1994. She's a massive star.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is just an extraordinary amount of time spent on Linda Fiorentino in this book.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you. I did a lot of research. Henry Miller. Apex Mountain. Probably not.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would say. No. Maybe the publication of Tropic of Cancer.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. John Herd.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think Home Alone.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it was Cutter's Way, was he was leading with somebody.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you for bringing that up. That movie is amazing. He plays a Vietnam vet with an eye patch in a wheelchair. And he is crazy in that movie. Thank you for bringing that up.

[Bill Simmons]

Cheech and Chong. Probably not.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's probably somewhere late 70s, up in smoke. For sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Chichen Chong. Hard to explain all these years later, you know, because I think they just. On YouTube, though.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. You mean, like how they hit?

[Bill Simmons]

No, just like. It's just very specific to an era that now they would just be guys. They'd be huge influencers. They'd probably have A billion dollar empire. It'd be like Cheech and Chong just did a 1 million, 1 billion dollar deal with Amazon.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. They're kind of the Mr. Mr. Beast of their time.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Late night New York City movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have a whole list.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this the best one?

[Sean Fennessey]

So I think the warriors is superior because it covers more ground, it captures more of the city.

[Bill Simmons]

You get more of the city. Yeah. So fair.

[Sean Fennessey]

The warriors would be number one.

[Bill Simmons]

Coney island, you're all over the place.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is very close behind. But in addition to that, I think Taxi Driver certainly in the conversation. 25th hour. Saturday night fever.

[Bill Simmons]

It's 25th hour, a late night New York City club.

[Sean Fennessey]

When they're in the club for like 40 minutes cruising, and they're in the diner when. When. When Barry Pepper and Hoffman go out to the diner. Ghostbusters. Right. I mean, the whole third act is at night. American Psycho Cruising Cruiser there. For sure.

[Bill Simmons]

American Psycho is a good one.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, good time and uncut gems. Yeah, uncut gems. I mean, could a movie owe more of a debt to After Hours than uncut gems? They're. They're.

[Bill Simmons]

I was trying to think of the movies that probably were the most influenced by it, and it's a long list. One of the ones I think is Go.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, definitely.

[Bill Simmons]

Where they just like, let's make late 90s go. And just put a bunch of weird actors with weird cameos. And it's basically, they should have paid royalties to Squircisse.

[Sean Fennessey]

Bright Lights. Big City is a big one from this era too, which I feel like people don't talk about that anymore. And then just like every Lumet film except for Dog Day Afternoon because it only takes place during the day.

[Bill Simmons]

Good list.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mountain for plaster.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure. Yes. The answer is yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Terry Guard. It's no, because I think it's probably Tootsie era. But we're. We're still.

[Sean Fennessey]

She was Oscar nominated for Tootsie.

[Bill Simmons]

Still on the Mountain.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep. And then what about mom and dad Save the World with John Lovetz and Terry Gar?

[Bill Simmons]

I think that she was off the mountain at that point. Soho. No.

[Sean Fennessey]

What is Apex Mountain for? Soho?

[Bill Simmons]

Some. It's somewhere in the last 15 years.

[Sean Fennessey]

Basquiat painting masterpieces five years earlier.

[Bill Simmons]

That's pretty good.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Scorsese or Spielberg. Yes. I love when we. When we have that organically.

[Sean Fennessey]

Here's the thing. Steve doesn't have the juice to get into this energy. He could never get to this place.

[Bill Simmons]

He wouldn't know what. He wouldn't know how to direct Linda Fiorentino.

[Sean Fennessey]

He definitely did not. He had no idea.

[Bill Simmons]

This is our eighth Scorsese rewatchable.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was going to ask you that. How many is Steven back. Spielberg's had how many?

[Bill Simmons]

I. I'm gonna say seven. Hold on. I can find that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jaws, Close Encounters, E.T. e.T. Minority Report.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Spielberg's had nine.

[Sean Fennessey]

Nine.

[Bill Simmons]

So Michael Mann, Tony Scott, Spielberg, all at nine, Scorsese at eight, Fincher at seven. That's our top. That's our top five.

[Sean Fennessey]

Are you done with Fincher?

[Bill Simmons]

No. God, no.

[Sean Fennessey]

Would you ever do Girl with a Dragon Tattoo?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't like that movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you like it?

[Sean Fennessey]

It's been one of the biggest growers in my life. And do I need to watch it? Yeah. I think it's, like, incredible. And I didn't realize it at the time.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I might not like it for the wrong reasons because I don't like. I really liked Rudy Mare, and I think that the movie just made Send her career in a weird direction, and I want to redo it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think she's an unusual person.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe. It's good to see Kate and Friendship, though. Great to see her working in a.

[Sean Fennessey]

Good movie, as you know. She matters to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you like Friendship? What'd you make of that? I don't think we've ever talked. Tim Robinson.

[Bill Simmons]

I really liked it. My daughter. My daughter absolutely loved it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, great.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And my wife was uncomfortable and complaining about it most of the time, but still liked it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not surprising.

[Bill Simmons]

It's. It's good.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is really funny.

[Bill Simmons]

It's really good. I. I thought people got a little carried away with how good it was, but I thought it was really good.

[Sean Fennessey]

I didn't think it was the funniest movie the last 15 years, but I was happy to have a comedy with Tim Robinson in movie theaters.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? So you said the bartender could talk me into the lead at certain points in his career.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Pick a nitz. Not sure why he flips on Marcy and makes her cry. Never understood that. That. I just gets mad and all. I. I just don't get it. It's a weird.

[Sean Fennessey]

So I think it's because he realizes that he doesn't. He's afraid of sleeping with a burn victim and is trying to get out of there.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, so it's a. Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't he walk to another subway station? And then why did. Why did Marcy actually kill herself? Was a weird one.

[Sean Fennessey]

The thing.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the weirdest part of this movie, it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wrote down what was wrong with Marcy.

[Bill Simmons]

Hmm.

[Sean Fennessey]

The thing I do think is clever is that she overdoses on secondal, which is what Judy Garland overdosed on. And she, of course, was the star of the wizard of Oz. And so there's meant to be some symmetry there.

[Bill Simmons]

You have any other Pickettes? We covered a lot.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, the biggest one was just. Why don't you just walk home?

[Bill Simmons]

Sequel, prequel. Prestige TV. All Black cast are untouchable. There's a prestige TV possibility where each episode is almost like 24. It's after hours, but it's 24 and it's 10 hours and one episode for each hour. It's not against it. Yeah, it's. It's ambitious.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, but would it be Kiefer Sutherland, be his son?

[Bill Simmons]

Is this movie better than Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Barney Cousins, Tony Romo, Harley Mays, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Long Legs, or Wilford Brimley in the Firm? Honestly, Sam Jackson being in this movie would have been great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

I think this movie is a Sam Jackson short.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, who would he be? Well, no, I think he's in the bar. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's just flipping out on somebody.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

But just. Just two minutes of Sam. 80s. Crazy Sam Jackson.

[Sean Fennessey]

They speak English in one, Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Just him going. Him just being Sam Jackson. Just bringing crazy energy. Maybe he's in the vigilante mob.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'd love to have Jules just in this movie. Jules Winfield. That would be great.

[Bill Simmons]

Great. Just one Oscar. Who gets it? I'm going with the editing. And our girl, Thelma Schoonmacher. Good mock. Our maker.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maker, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Thelma Schoonmaker.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, we haven't mentioned that. Michael.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting name.

[Sean Fennessey]

Michael Powell is a pretty important person in this movie. Legendary British filmmaker who had been kind of cast out of filmmaking in the 70s and 80s, but became a huge mentor to Scorsese at this time and married Thelma Schoonmaker right before this movie, I think, or maybe right after. And he was one of the people who helped him figure out the ending, helped him determine the tone. And if you haven't seen any Michael Powell movies. Black Narcissus, Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, Matter of Life and Death, like some of the greatest British films ever made. But he similarly experienced this kind of like, limbo, this exile that Scorsese felt. So they had a real kinship together. And also, clearly, Thelma and Powell, they helped Scorsese a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably unanswerable questions. You have Any. Because I have two.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think I was just trying to understand what this guy's job is. I know he's a word processor, but what does that mean?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think we're supposed to know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's like ambiguous, Weird. Office job.

[Sean Fennessey]

So an unanswerable question.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, I have two. The timeline of this movie. What time does he land back in front of his office? What time is it? Here's what we know. He leaves his house at 11:30. He arrives at Marcy's around 12:15. At 1:35 in the morning, Marcy says she needs to take a shower. Then we see a clock when he's leaving Terry gar's place. At 4:10, when he goes to the diner, you can see the clock. Okay, it's 4:10.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

How many hours after that happened? Like three. And it's as they're driving the van. The sun's coming up, but we don't know what time of year it is. So it's probably 6:30 range. So he landed his office at 7.

[Sean Fennessey]

The number one giveaway is that someone is vacuuming in the office when he gets there. Someone?

[Bill Simmons]

6:30 in the morning.

[Sean Fennessey]

So what? When does that shift to clean? First of all, who cleans the office in the morning? Shouldn't it be at night when you.

[Bill Simmons]

Clean the office after finishing it? Cause you can see when Cheech and Chong are driving. You can see the sun's coming up.

[Sean Fennessey]

Or right before those gates.

[Bill Simmons]

6:30 range.

[Sean Fennessey]

I didn't mention him. Exiting those gates is one of my great shot Gordos too.

[Bill Simmons]

So I'm gonna say he gets there. This is seven hours round trip, okay?

[Sean Fennessey]

Seven hours of it.

[Bill Simmons]

He's there at 6:30, shows up at Marcy's at 12:15. And maybe he's back in the office at 7:15 having slept.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think you answered the unanswerable question. I got another one.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not unanswerable though.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did he finish reading Tropic of Cancer in jail?

[Bill Simmons]

Because that was my other unanswerable question. Does he just get arrested four hours later?

[Sean Fennessey]

They could find him.

[Bill Simmons]

This guy came. His name was Paul Hackett, and he left and he ran away from the thing. And now Marcy's dead. And it was his fault.

[Sean Fennessey]

They definitely could find him.

[Bill Simmons]

And he might have shot somebody too.

[Sean Fennessey]

He didn't do anything wrong.

[Bill Simmons]

I think. I think he's at least on trial. Dominic Dunn's covering it. What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie? The Mr. Softy. Truck would be pretty cool. I don't know where you put it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I don't really have that place.

[Bill Simmons]

20 plaster, Bill.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I think the plaster Paris bagel is probably my go to.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good one, Coach. Finstock award. Best life lesson. Nothing good happens after 2am Perfect.

[Sean Fennessey]

Perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't chase the night. Best double feature choice you have. What did you have? Well, you had Peewee.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have a bunch.

[Bill Simmons]

Good. Fellas is in the mix.

[Sean Fennessey]

Peewee into the night. The John Lance.

[Bill Simmons]

So that was my choice.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. I'll let you talk about it.

[Bill Simmons]

Which is weirdly like they. They think it's a rip off of, but they're making them at the same time.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I don't think it's a ripoff.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't even know which one came out first in la. It's basically la LA for hours. Ends up in Malibu.

[Sean Fennessey]

Uncut. Gems.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Another nighttime Scorsese movie. Bringing out the Dead. It's a little underrated. Nick Cage as an ambulance driver. Game Night and the Purge.

[Bill Simmons]

The Purge. That's a good one. I would go for into the Night.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it'd be funny to see New York, Louisiana. Same kind of version. Energy. And then who won the movie? Scorsese.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, man. I mean, he was. He was cooked. He was done for. And then I think this movie just getting made and acknowledged.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was enough to kind of start to get him back on track.

[Bill Simmons]

It got his juices going again, which is all that really matters.

[Sean Fennessey]

You like this movie more or less than Color Money, which comes right after this.

[Bill Simmons]

I like Color Money a little more.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that movie is amazing.

[Sean Fennessey]

They're both five stars.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we already did that one. This one. I think, as I said, it's.

[Sean Fennessey]

You don't want to recolor.

[Bill Simmons]

It's less of a fun hang. But I almost admire it more than Color Money because I can't believe it worked.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's just a hinge movie for him, you know, he needs it to go forward, to go through the next door.

[Bill Simmons]

That's it for New York City Month. What was your biggest disappointment that we didn't do in New York City?

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm waiting on Dog Day Afternoon. I want to do it. I think we could do it. I think we could do a great episode. I think we could do a mega episode about Dog Day. We should do it.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a good one. Which one were you the most jealous of that you weren't on out of the other four? Probably not. Afro Justice.

[Sean Fennessey]

Nope. Didn't even. I Don't know if I've even seen that film. DH with a V is a big one for me. I love that movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I know. We don't have four seats anymore. We would have to do a different studio.

[Sean Fennessey]

If only we worked at a massive corporation that could fund incredible studios.

[Bill Simmons]

We're changing it right now. We're trying to fix it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Probably Die Hard With a Vengeance. Just because I was, like, a teenager when that movie came out, and I just thought it was crack. I think there's, like, a really good case for it as better than the original Die Hard. Wow. Yeah. Which I know is. I know you guys talked about it a little bit, but that's a great one. And then I don't know, what was the other one you did another big one, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Working Girl.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, well, I should not have been on that. I'm glad you. I'm. I think you. You did a great service.

[Bill Simmons]

So out for justice one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep. Out for justice one.

[Bill Simmons]

Which. Which New York movie did we not do, other than Dog Day Afternoon, that you think we should have done because King of Comedy was in the finals?

[Sean Fennessey]

We never did.

[Bill Simmons]

Not doing one for you.

[Sean Fennessey]

We never did that.

[Bill Simmons]

No. That movie makes me uneasy and uncomfortable, and I don't know if it's rewatchable because Sandra Bernhardt is so frightening in that movie that it's almost like, not. Not fun, but I know it is.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's just. It's so crazy, so smart about where we are now and how people think about celebrity. It is so.

[Bill Simmons]

Which is why we're gonna have to do it.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's so smart. I guess I don't really. It is. That is a New York movie, and it is very much a movie about, like, a New York talk show host star. But for whatever reason, I don't associate that as much with New York as, like, you know, your Taxi Drivers and your other Scorsese classics. I'm trying to think of best New York movies of all time.

[Bill Simmons]

We've done a bunch of them like we did When Harry Met Sally and Cruising and the warriors, and we've done, like, a shitload of them.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know what would be a really good one? I don't know if you have a big relationship to this movie, but Francis Hawkins.

[Bill Simmons]

It's on the list.

[Sean Fennessey]

Frances Ha is a movie that was about when I was living in New York, and that is the closest. Like, I didn't live through After Hours. But what she is doing in that movie, plus Baumbach being such a special filmmaker for us, it just. It felt like My life in a very specific way. So that would be a really good one.

[Bill Simmons]

Did Jack Sanders like After Hours?

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, I think he loved it. Right, Jack?

[Bill Simmons]

I think this movie is the reason this show exists. Not the specific movie, but the idea. For me, Bill, this is a fun hang. My girlfriend and I were dying laughing the entire time. For me, it's a five star masterpiece. Wow. And this is a very specific thought, but I would say Scorsese, better than any other director, has the best image making instincts. His intentionality comes through so clearly when he's whipping the camera, when he's panning, when he's telling you something's supposed to be scary, something's supposed to be serious.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's better than any other director.

[Bill Simmons]

I absolutely loved it. Wow, you've really just trained him.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you mean?

[Bill Simmons]

You've groomed him.

[Sean Fennessey]

He came to the right place. That's what happened.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he really did.

[Sean Fennessey]

He was born for it.

[Bill Simmons]

I think his movies have the best pace. He's figured out pace better than any other director that I can think of.

[Sean Fennessey]

He doesn't have a ton of movies that are 94 minutes too. That's the other thing is this movie is tight. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a shame Craig's away. I think Craig's on his honeymoon. He's somewhere.

[Sean Fennessey]

Didn't he get married two years ago?

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he's just out of vacation.

[Sean Fennessey]

Would it be okay if I went on my honeymoon tomorrow?

[Bill Simmons]

Bill, he's on a vacation. But when Craig comes back, we need his take on a couple of these.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because I think he would like this a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

If he had 94 minutes, he just immediately would have been in on that. All right, well, we're coming back next week. We'll have some sort of something when it. When is July 4th?

[Sean Fennessey]

July 4th is on a Friday this year. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Next Friday. Gotta tape it next week. All right, that's it. That's it for New York City month. I don't know what's coming next week. It's July 4th. We'll see. See, Hopefully Jaylen Brown, does it get traded. Thanks to Jack Sanders. Thanks to Ronick as well. And we'll see you next.