‘American Gangster’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

Summary

The Rewatchables – ‘American Gangster’

Podcast: The Rewatchables | Host: Bill Simmons
Episode: 'American Gangster' With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan
Date: September 2, 2025

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Overview

This milestone 400th episode of The Rewatchables dives deep into Ridley Scott’s gritty 2007 crime epic, American Gangster, starring Denzel Washington and Russell Crowe. Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan (CR), and Van Lathan reflect on the film’s legacy, its dense storytelling, behind-the-scenes drama, and the lasting allure of its characters and the era it depicts. The wide-ranging discussion touches on everything from the film’s place in the gangster genre and the performances of its stellar cast, to the cultural and historical contexts it navigates.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• Celebrate American Gangster as the landmark 400th Rewatchables movie.
• Examine its strengths, flaws, and enduring rewatchability.
• Explore its production history, cast, and mythical elements.
• Discuss its place in the pantheon of crime epics and Denzel Washington’s legendary run.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why ‘American Gangster’? [05:37]

• Chosen by CR for its “groundswell” resurgence thanks to streaming suggestions and YouTube scenes.
• Bill notes the movie's density: “There's five fucking movies in here. And when you saw it the first time, you're just like—it's like being overfed at Thanksgiving.” [12:55]

2. First Impressions & Changing Attitudes [06:01, 10:22]

• Bill: “I saw it in the theater…I remember being exhilarated and disappointed. And then over the years, it's kind of grown.”
• CR likens the expectation to Miami Vice: “You're watching it and you're like, I want this to be Godfather. But…it's a different kind of movie.” [09:38]
• Over time, it’s become a “fun hang” of great scenes, rather than a tightly focused narrative.

3. What Makes the Movie Work? [07:16, 13:59]

• 1970s New York setting, blending various classic crime genres: “It's like if CR typed into ChatGPT, make me a movie combining French Connection, Scarface, Goodfellas, Heat, Serpico, Black Caesar, and Godfather 2. And ChatGPT was like, here it is. Oh, put Denzel Washington in it.” [07:08]
• Incredible cast: “One of the best casts assembled in the century.” (CR) [07:16]
• Memorable scenes over plot cohesion—a collection of “Best of Will Ferrell” SNL sketches.

4. Denzel, Crowe, and the Central Dynamic [13:24, 26:05]

• Denzel’s Performance:
  • On the Denzel “dialed up” scale: “He's like a six in this movie...he’s playing this pretty cool for the most part.” (Bill) [13:36]
  • “He is always one step away from violence.” (CR) [14:19]
• Debate over focus:
  • Should the film have tightened on Frank Lucas (Denzel) vs. Richie Roberts (Crowe)?
  • “The movie really should have been a Frank Lucas movie.” (Bill) [11:44]

5. The Film’s Structure & Genre Issues [08:14, 17:44]

• Overstuffed with subplots and genre elements—“there are five movies in here.”
• Trupo (Josh Brolin) and his corrupt cop squad could have been a film on their own.
• The abrupt ending and odd narrative shortcuts leave some arcs underdeveloped.

6. Cultural Context & Production Lore [08:23, 37:17]

• The film’s backstory is filled with Hollywood drama: directors shuffled (Fuqua, Fincher, De Palma, Peter Berg), casting pivots (Benicio Del Toro, Will Smith, Don Cheadle considered).
• Denzel’s first $20 million paycheck, Jay-Z’s themed album—indicators of the project’s pop cultural cachet.
• The initial “Black Godfather” reputation.

7. Denzel’s Run & Crowe’s Era [23:06, 29:03]

• Bill runs through Denzel’s 2000–2007 consecutive hits: “10 movies in a row over the span of eight years that you could just take on a desert island and be probably okay with.” [23:58]
• Russell Crowe’s career peak in the 2000s—string of high-profile movies culminating in American Gangster.
• Josh Brolin’s late-blooming success (“the era of Josh Brolin”).

8. Accuracy vs. Myth-Making [83:03, 116:09]

• Historical liberties: “A federal judge…said the film was 1% reality and 99% Hollywood.” (Bill)
• The “myth of Frank Lucas” obscures reality, fueling both the film’s entertainment value and later Oscar-campaign sabotage.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Movie’s Structure

"There's five fucking movies in here. And when you saw it the first time…it’s like being overfed at Thanksgiving."
— Bill Simmons [12:55]

On Denzel’s Performance

"He's like a six in this movie. There’s just a couple scenes…the piano scene where he just fucking brings it. But other than that, he's playing this pretty cool for the most part."
— Bill Simmons [13:59]

"Yet at the same time, he is always one step away from violence."
— Chris Ryan [14:19]

On the Overstuffed Cast

“This is one of the best casts assembled in the century…where do you stop?”
— Chris Ryan [07:16]

On the Production Hell

“The lore leading up to it, the rumors of the production, Denzel getting paid. The movie's going. Then the movie's not going. Fuqua's on the movie. Then Scott comes on the movie and changes the movie…years of it being kicked around.”
— Chris Ryan [08:23]

On What Aged the Best

“Every scene that Denzel is in, he's giving something crazy.”
— Van Lathan [119:05]

“Anytime a movie has a character named Bumpy, I’m probably feeling good about where we’re going.”
— Bill Simmons [70:29]

On Its Rewatchability

“This is a movie you can jump in at any time. It's almost like you don't even know where the movie starts or ends.”
— Van Lathan [118:49]

On Famous Scenes

“Frank kills Tango. That’s the scene in this movie that lives on. Every great gangster movie has to have a scene, just one scene that lives on throughout the movie. At least one.”
— Chris Ryan [56:33]

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Important Timestamps

• Intro and Rewatchables history: 01:15–05:14
• Choice of ‘American Gangster’ for episode 400: 05:25–06:29
• Immediate impressions and expectations: 06:29–10:36
• Debate: whose movie is this—Lucas or Roberts?: 11:17–11:56
• Denzel’s portrayal and signature scenes: 13:18–15:13
• Complex, "overstuffed" narrative: 12:54–14:55
• Cultural/myth-making context around Frank Lucas and 1970s New York: 17:36–18:17, 53:37–54:20
• Frank shoots Tango scene: 56:20–57:47
• Production history and director changes: 37:17–41:45
• Denzel and Crowe’s career runs: 23:06–29:45
• Debate over Jay-Z’s American Gangster as a 2007 marker: 65:38–66:16
• What aged the best segments: 67:51–76:07
• Historical (in)accuracy and myth-busting: 83:03–83:28, 116:09–116:47
• Final thoughts and ‘Who won the movie?’: 117:55–120:34

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Favorite Scenes & Rewatchables Rankings

1. Frank Lucas shoots Tango in the street [56:20]
   • CR: “That’s the scene in this movie that lives on…”
2. Frank’s family arrival in Harlem
3. Frank’s outburst at the party [59:05]
4. Ali-Frazier fight / the infamous chinchilla coat
5. Final Richie-Frank face-off [64:11]
6. Bangkok and Vietnam drug operation sequences
7. Blue Magic drug-lab montage [54:55]
8. Richie finding money in the car with his partner [49:33]
9. Trupo’s car blown up and subsequent threats [72:25]
10. Frank burning his coat after the wedding [15:03]

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Noteworthy Deep Dives

• Production Turmoil: Studio panic, multiple directors, and massive pay-or-play deals for Denzel and Benicio Del Toro (who never even shot a frame).
• Cast Trivia: Four Oscar winners—Denzel, Crowe, Common, Cuba Gooding Jr.—plus a who’s-who of “that guy” all-stars (John Ortiz, Richie Coster, Armand Assante, etc).
• Jay-Z’s Inspired Album: The film’s impact on pop culture and hip-hop legacy.
• Location Authenticity: Recreating 1970s Harlem and the logistics of era-accurate set design.

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What Aged Best/Worst

Aged Best

• Denzel’s “cool, calculated” performance.
• Immersive period set design and art direction.
• Frank Lucas’ subtle, explosive violence and code.
• The pulpy, scene-by-scene rewatchability.

Aged Worst

• Wild historical inaccuracies: “1% reality, 99% Hollywood” [83:03]
• Overstuffed subplots (e.g., Richie’s custody arc) that bog the film down.
• Fake Ali, Frazier, and Wilt Chamberlain at the iconic boxing match.
• Some performances (e.g., Armand Assante as a Mafia boss) questioned by the hosts.

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Nitpicks, Memes & Hot Takes

• Why didn’t Frank take his franchise “national” with his drug supply advantage?
• Calls for Michael Mann or even De Palma/Fincher to have directed instead.
  • “This would have been Michael Mann’s second greatest movie behind Heat. I just think he crushes this movie.” (Bill) [93:20]
• Denzel’s performance as the origin for modern Denzel impersonations (“my man!”).
• Best double feature: Blow or French Connection.
• Who REALLY won the movie? Unanimous: Denzel.

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Closing Thoughts

Fun, fast-paced, overstuffed with characters and threads—American Gangster may sprawl too wide to be a true modern classic, but its moments and performances have solidified its cult status. The episode is a celebration of excess—fittingly for a 400th installment—and a testament to the movie’s enduring “rewatchability,” anchored by Denzel’s indelible performance and the ongoing debate about what the film could’ve been.

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For Further Viewing/Listening

• The Rewatchables archive: The Ringer – The Rewatchables
• Jay-Z’s American Gangster (album)
• French Connection, Blow, Heat, Carlito’s Way, Public Enemies

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Hosts’ Contact

• Bill Simmons: @BillSimmons
• Chris Ryan: @ChrisRyan77
• Van Lathan: @VanLathan

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Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Prime. Prime delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking a cooler for your snacks, a folding chair, a Bluetooth speaker, and a six pack of your favorite seltzer. Delivered by tomorrow. Fast. Oh, yeah. Extra napkins, last minute guac bowls, backup phone chargers, even a replacement remote. Fast. I feel like I've ordered all of those things. We're talking everything you need for game day. Fast, fast, fast. Free delivery. It's on Prime. This episode is brought to you by Bleacher Report. Football is back. And downloading the Bleacher Report app puts you in the middle of the action. Make Bleacher Report your go to this season for the fastest breaking news alerts covering NFL and college football. And don't miss a moment with highlights, scores and live reactions in the app. Get expert analysis on your favorite teams and the news that you want this season. Download the Bleacher Report app today. The rewatchables brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where you can find the watch with Chris Ryan. Still cranking back.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Van Lathan, you got. You're in three podcasts now.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

College football tailgate. We call it the Ringer tailgate. It's college football podcast coming live on Saturdays.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Wednesdays as well. Plus you're in higher learning.

[Craig]

Plus midnight. There you go. Yeah. Finally on board.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm Bill Simmons. This is the 400th movie we've done on the rewatchables.

[Craig]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I was looking back at all the people. So Fenasey's in Telluride, so he couldn't be here, but Fenasey was a huge part of this podcast, really, since we launched it in 2017. We'll tell the story in a second. Shay Serrano, Jason. Yeah, really big parts of the first, like, first half of the feed. Kyle Brandt, Huge part of the last five years. We've had Mallory and Dobbins and Wesley Koppelman, Rosillo, Juliet. All of them popped out many times.

[Ben]

Tarantino twice.

[Van Lathan]

Three times.

[Bill Simmons]

I was getting to that.

[Ben]

Oh, sorry.

[Craig]

Three times.

[Bill Simmons]

We've had some. Some extended cameos from Joe. Joe, Joanna Robinson, Big Woz Greenwald, Rembert Chang, Mina Kimes, Logan Murdoch, cousin Sal, Chuck Klosterman, the Danny's with Craig. A couple times we had Quentin Tarantino, Michael Mann, Bill Hader, Aaron Sorkin, Judd Apatow, Bill Lawrence, Jimmy Kimmel, all making memorable stop bys. Jennifer Lawrence has stopped by. Not as memorable. She didn't understand the categories. My wife was on an episode.

[Ben]

Oh, that's Right.

[Bill Simmons]

My dad was on an episode with me and CR for my 50th birthday. We did Shawshank Redemption. That was great. Craig's wife was on an episode when she was my assistant. She requested Country Strong Polarizing. Country Strong polarizing episode. We were originally produced by Liz Kelly.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Liz Kelly.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just saying. Craig's wife.

[Ben]

He said his wife.

[Bill Simmons]

Zach Mack, original producer, nephew Kyle did a few. Jason Gallagher was involved a little bit.

[Ben]

Are you retiring? What are we doing?

[Bill Simmons]

Veronic. I'm just doing the list.

[Ben]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Richie. Who else was producing in the background? Craig. That's basically Dylan. Maybe a couple times.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Dylan Berkey.

[Bill Simmons]

Now we have gahao. We producer Craig, who's been with us, I would say 80% of the pods. Chris.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. 2019, I think started as a podcast intern. You could just see the hunger in his eyes, man. That was it. He's been with us ever since. He's hosted a couple. He's on one that he might be on 401 or 402. Van Lathan, do you remember your first rewatchables?

[Craig]

I do not. I'm not even going to try to act like a lot. It was Boys in the Hood. No. No, I do not. 8 millimeter.

[Bill Simmons]

No. No.

[Ben]

Cat couldn't have been the first.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the one when I was like, this guy's a regular. First of all, you requested 8 millimeter.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You spoke my language.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

No, your first one was higher learning.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah. That's a memory.

[Ben]

Oh, that's good.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's a memory.

[Ben]

That's a nice tie in.

[Bill Simmons]

And then CR the legend. So this started in my. My little pool house. In my old house.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

20Th anniversary heat. And we said, let's just do a Bill podcast. An entire podcast about Heat on my podcast. We did, I think in December around Christmas time. You came in back to a pilot. We just talked about Heat for an hour, and we had no idea if anyone would want to listen to it or care.

[Ben]

It was the Wild west back then.

[Bill Simmons]

Put it on my feed and the general sponsor was like, that was cool.

[Craig]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I love T2. So we were like, huh? And then tried to figure out the rewatchables. It got a little rocky for the first year. Trying all kinds of different things. And then I remember the July 4, 2018 area. We taped Jaws, Mew and Fantasy, and we had had the pod for almost a year at that point. We tried a bunch of different things, but we kind of knew what it was at that point. And that was the first one where I was like, oh, this. This pod's gonna go a while.

[Ben]

Like, we've.

[Bill Simmons]

We've kind of cracked the code on this. You remember that?

[Ben]

I do. And I also remember, like, feeling like that was the first one. Was that the first super long episode that we did?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. We had more category. We just kind of were like, this is what the pod should be.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Been doing it ever since. Made some. Some hairy times during COVID Sure. We were doing stuff on Zoom. We're doing two a week. I did Cast Away By Myself. That's right. We did.

[Ben]

We were doing two a week.

[Craig]

Castaway by.

[Bill Simmons]

I did Cast Away By Myself. By the way, solid pod. One of my best performances. Really good job. But cr, Great to have you back.

[Van Lathan]

Thanks.

[Bill Simmons]

And obviously this wouldn't have happened if we weren't in the guest house that day, so.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

400Th movie. Anyway, I gave you the call, said you picked the movie.

[Ben]

I know, and it's weird.

[Bill Simmons]

Said, my man.

[Craig]

My man. I.

[Ben]

You know, it's. There's a couple of white whales out there. But I was really eyeballing American Gangster because it's on. It's been on Netflix a lot recently. Or it's on Netflix. And this has just been. You know what? It's get suggested in my YouTube algorithm a lot scenes from this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And I saw there's a couple scenes that have, like, 5 million views, and I was like, I think. I think there's, like, a groundswell behind American Gangster right now.

[Bill Simmons]

I flew to Boston a couple weeks ago, and it was on amc. Can't say it was the best American Gangster experience to be on amc, but it's been. I. I've been circling him for a while. I saw in the theater, I remember being exhilarated and disappointed. And then over the years, it's kind of grown. But on the amc, I was. And then I finally texted him. I was like, watching American Gangster on amc, and CR was like, I immediately.

[Ben]

Grew a Josh Brolin mustache.

[Bill Simmons]

So anyway, American Gangster, our 400th movie, is next. We're gonna take a break. American Gangster 2007. I wrote down. This is like, if CR typed into ChatGPT, make me a movie combining French Connection, Scarface, Goodfellas, Heat, Serpico, Black Caesar, and Godfather 2. And ChatGPT was like, here it is. Oh, put Denzel Washington in it.

[Ben]

Can I interest you in a quick scene in Bangkok?

[Bill Simmons]

Six minutes out of nowhere? Why do you love this movie?

[Ben]

It's kind of what you just said, which is that it's a collection of some of my favorite genres, my favorite parts of American history, my favorite parts of criminal underground history. In a sort of environment that honestly, I never, ever, ever get bored of. 1970s New York. It is like the never ending maze that I could just live in and explore for the rest of my cinematic life. And reading about it. Life, and it somehow Ridley Scott, like, brings it to life in a way that I think is reminiscent of some of the Sydney Lumet stuff from. From the seventies, for sure. But it looks different, it feels different. And, you know, he's got these hitters in it. This is one of the. This is one of the best casts assembled in the century. Whether or not they live up the. The movie itself lives up to, like, all the talent that's assembled is another conversation. But like, I was going through looking for Dion, looking for that guy, and I was like, where do you stop?

[Bill Simmons]

It was a long Dion.

[Ben]

Are we.

[Bill Simmons]

Are this like a 26 was like a basketball team. We had like a bench.

[Craig]

That guy list. Like, I just started grouping them together.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Like, in the whole squad could be a. That guy. You know what I remember about the movie? The lore leading up to it, the rumors of the production, Denzel getting paid. The movie's going. Then the movie's not going to. Fuqua's on the movie. Then Scott comes on the movie and changes the movie. And so then the version of the film that we get is kind of this mishmash of all of these visions. Then the cultural push behind it. Jay Z, the theme album, the. This is Denzel's first $20 million paycheck. All of the whispers. So by the time you got to see the film, you were actually, if you were like a cinephile, trying to see how this entire thing was going to come together after years of it being kicked around and stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

It's very similar to heat in the 90s. You knew about the movie for a while. It was two people I wanted to see in a movie again because they're in Virtuosity. It was Ridley Scott. It just felt like a big movie. It's like, I can't wait to go see this in the theater.

[Craig]

You're saying that people saw Virtuosity and they were like, let's run it back.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm just saying. But they did Virtuosity. Denzel was a big star. Crowe is not.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But in 07, Crow is a massive star, and it felt a little Pacino. De Niro.

[Craig]

Y.

[Ben]

Well, there's an experience I had with this movie that is not dissimilar to what I had with Miami Vice, which is, you hear about that this is going to happen. You find out who's going to be in it and who's making it, and you're like, this is. I'm going to wake up soon and find out that I dreamed this. This can't be happening. Like a Harlem gangster story with Denzel Washington and Russell Crowe, the cop chasing him. Same kind of thing with, like, Colin Farrell and Jamie Foxx playing Crocket, and it's Michael Mann going back to it. Then I think the initial reaction to it probably Miami Vice because of how beautifully strange it is and American Gangster, where there's just like, you're watching it and you're like, I want this to be Godfather. But it is. It is a different kind of movie, and it's got a different kind of message and idea, and it's different. Kind of like.

[Bill Simmons]

Were you disappointed when you left the theater?

[Ben]

I think so. I think a little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

I was. I was disappointed. It didn't take me until this decade to really grow into this movie. I remember Miami Vice. We said it was, like, seven, eight years before. We were like, wait, is this movie good?

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

This movie was always pretty good. But I look at it now, it's just like a collection of scenes.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's almost like watching those SNL Best of Will Ferrell, and it's just like a bunch of awesome wolf. Now you look at it, you could just jump in anywhere. It doesn't. The script's all over the place. Like, it's just a fun hang.

[Craig]

The movie is insanely dense. Like, insanely dense. Everything is happening in every single scene. Right. You look at the film now, and you still see a better movie in there somewhere.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think that people seem to think the director's cut, which was like 30 minutes longer, filled in some of the blanks. But I'm not positive this movie needed to be longer than.

[Craig]

I don't think that it needs to be longer. When I say. When I say it's, you know, a better movie, I'm talking about some really big choices. Like, it almost feels like if the movie focused more on Roberts or more on Lucas, that the film would have been better.

[Bill Simmons]

What would you have chosen? What would have been your choice? This is an interesting topic. I was gonna do this later, probably more.

[Craig]

More Frank Lucas, a little less of Richard Roberts.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think that's the issue with the movie, is Crowe was such a big star. They had to almost put more. And they're making up all kinds of shit about that character too. But it really should have been a Frank Lucas movie.

[Craig]

It kind of. To me, I always thought. Cause Brolin is at the perfect point in his career where if the Roberts role was smaller, that he could have played it. Right. Cause he was Josh Brolin. He's an entity that we've known for a very long time. But he wasn't.

[Ben]

He was in the wilderness before this movie.

[Craig]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, this is no country. Yeah.

[Craig]

So like, that's the situation too. If that role were a little bit smaller, you could have put him in that role. And maybe the movie, it streamlines a little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

But don't you think? The thing I love about this movie, but it's also frustrating, is Trupo and his whole crew just could have been the movie.

[Ben]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

You. And then you have Frank Lucas and his whole thing. That could have been the movie, dude.

[Ben]

Frank Lucas getting the drugs out of Vietnam.

[Bill Simmons]

That could have been the entire movie.

[Ben]

Roger Guinevere Smith and Denzel Washington getting drugs out of cotton from coffins.

[Bill Simmons]

This goes. Van used the word dense. I think this is why this movie was such a slow burn and why I like it so much now.

[Craig]

It's.

[Bill Simmons]

There's five fucking movies in here. And when you saw it the first time, you're just like. It's like being overfed at Thanksgiving or something. But now there's so many different beats and the way it moves and it's just like such a fun hang. And then, you know, one of the reasons we're doing this is Denzel, who's in the spotlight again. I think he's going to get nominated for the Spike movie. But you know, he's been bringing it now for four decades.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

This is.

[Ben]

Would probably not be a good rewatchables guest because apparently he doesn't like watching movies.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he doesn't want to talk about the past. But in this one, I was thinking like the Denzel dialing it up scale training days at 10.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where he's like, I am dialed up. I'm going all out. Like game seven. NBA star. Philadelphia's maybe an eight where he brings it up highest to lowest. Maybe a seven. He's like a six in this movie. And there's just a couple scenes, like the piano scene where he just fucking brings it. But other than that, other than that, he's playing this pretty cool for the most part.

[Ben]

It's pretty ice in his veins. I mean, the tango scene, you know what I mean, like, the entire point of the Frank. The characterization of Frank is that, like, he's not gonna get flustered. He's not gonna get distracted. It's only when he wears the chinchilla that anything starts going wrong for him. And in the whole time, he's kind of. He's got a code for all of us.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yet at the same time, he is always one step away from violence. Like, one step away. One of my favorite scenes is towards the end when he's being interrogated by Richie Roberts. Or actually he's more interrogating Richie Roberts. And he's recounting the thought of this encounter with the police that he's had. And he's just getting madder and madder and madder until he snaps. That happens so many times in this movie. To wear the chinchilla or the fur or whatever it is and then to have it go bad, and then to come back after your wedding and burn it in front of your wife while she cries is all time psychotic. You know what I mean?

[Bill Simmons]

So he's like, my wedding night went better.

[Craig]

Yeah, tell us about it.

[Bill Simmons]

I wasn't. Wasn't arrested by the police. I didn't burn my chinchilla. It's pretty average night.

[Ben]

Detective Trupo didn't pull you guys over.

[Craig]

Trupo was. I love that character.

[Ben]

You bring up a really good point, though, because the film concludes with the most revealing, traditional character moment with Frank. That's where he tells his life story. That's where he gives his biographical background and talks about why I am the way I am. What we usually see is, all my life, I've wanted to be a gangster. And then it's Henry Hill's childhood.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Michael Corleone is going to become a senator or a congressman, but then his father gets a hit on him and it changes who he is and he becomes the Godfather. Frank is Frank. When we first see him, the first image of Frank is shooting a burning man. Then it's bumpy for like five minutes, and Frank just becomes this great white shark out there immediately. And I think for some people watching this film, it's a little disorienting because you're used to take me on the arc of this character. How does this guy get to the point where he's shooting Idris Elba in the head on the street and not caring about the consequences? And we only really get that at the end. And at the end, it's almost like two minutes of Frank Lucas is the good guy.

[Craig]

Right. Well. And that's another thing that was always odd to me about the movie, the abrupt ending.

[Ben]

Well, the idea that Frank is like, I'm a cop now.

[Craig]

The idea that. So the movie has to reconcile itself because they've made Frank into this immensely likable character, and then you have to watch him fall. Now, normally what happens in these films is when the drug dealer falls, besides blow, which is tragic by the time. George. Like, legitimately tragic. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But normally the drug dealers. It's a fictional characterization. The drug dealer dies, and, oh, my God, the excess guy in this one, we know that that doesn't happen. So how do we feel good about Frank going to jail? And the way that they do that is. Aha. He put a lot of bad cops away. And this kind of allowed him to get all of the trauma that he had from the police blowing off his cousin's head out because he put cops away. But, like, I remember when the movie came out, we left the movie. And so. And culturally, we thinking, so, like, Frank Lucas is a snitch, right? He's working with the police.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they flip it so that the cops are the true bad guys. Right. That's the threat of the whole movie, is cops just steal drugs and do money.

[Craig]

I don't think they quite get there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

You know what I mean? And I don't think that they quite get there. That's why you'd have had to have more Frank to do that, because you.

[Bill Simmons]

Wore more Trupo, right?

[Ben]

Yes. Trupo is kind of limited to. We don't really know why Trupo is doing what he's doing. I mean, he just seems like a fucking asshole and is just like, nobody's allowed to come into New York without paying my taxes. But we don't get a ton of time with him ultimately, for a movie that's two and a half hours.

[Bill Simmons]

Could have had more time.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Josh. Josh Brolin was a borderline. Did I steal the entire movie? Kind of candidate. When you think he did this in no country in the same year.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

It's incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

And was just this child actor who had bounced around forever. And then all of a sudden, he's doing these two movies. He's doing W. He's hosting snl. He's married to Diane Lane.

[Craig]

How does that happen? I always think about that. So before this, the last thing I can remember really seeing Josh Brolin there was, like, Hollow Man. Remember that joint where, like, they were invisible and Kevin Bacon's dick is in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

For some reason, he wanted to show it off.

[Craig]

Yeah, he does it.

[Bill Simmons]

Fluffed himself a little bit. He fluffs himself and then bangs it out. Self fluffing. Like that guy in Saltburn. That guy was tugging it where he was like, hold on.

[Ben]

Oh, is it my shotgun?

[Bill Simmons]

Don't say actually did. Hold on, hold on.

[Ben]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

Just gotta play with myself.

[Craig]

All of a sudden, we are in the era of Josh Brolin.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, and it's a fun era.

[Craig]

One after another one, you know what?

[Ben]

He, like, gets to that point and I. I have a lot of rolling stuff later, but, like, it's that funny thing of success truly coming later in life. And you're like, I'm not letting this opportunity pass me by. Because Brolin works and does two or three movies a year. At a time when most guys are like, cool, I'm in my 40s now. Like, I can. I can dial it down a little bit and do maybe one big one and one, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

I liked him, though. I'll tell you, when he went on my radar as a real guy. Into the Blue, A ripoff of the Deep.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

With Paul Walker and Jessica Alba.

[Craig]

Wait a minute.

[Bill Simmons]

That was her Pedro 1999 season.

[Craig]

This was a very important moment for me. Into the Blue. Yeah.

[Ben]

Like, in terms of the blue, like, formatively.

[Craig]

Yeah, man.

[Bill Simmons]

In your 20s at that point, I'm.

[Craig]

No, no, no, no. I'm. But I'm still forming the beginning scenes of into the Blue. Yeah. I remember we went to see this in theaters. I was like, well, the beginning scenes.

[Ben]

Royal we. Or who's. Who's we?

[Bill Simmons]

This movie knew what it was. Yeah. Very attractive. People are going to scuba dive and then get in trouble.

[Craig]

Really? I cannot even remember really what the movies. But they find, like, a treasure or something like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Josh Brolin's the bad guy.

[Craig]

He's the bad guy in that.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's a really good bad guy in that.

[Craig]

But that film was interesting because everything happens at the beginning. And, you know, Jessica Alba. These scenes had linked on the Internet, but they leaked on the Internet. Jessica Alba's like, in the bathing suit and the whole nine is happening. And then we just keep waiting for that scene to, like, happen again. We keep waiting for us to go underwater with Jessica Alba again. And then it kind of doesn't happen.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what the Deep was like.

[Craig]

And the movie gets really serious about, like, real stuff. And I'm like, I kind of didn't come here for that, man.

[Bill Simmons]

I kind of wanted to see her look for Fish. Yeah.

[Craig]

For the entire time.

[Bill Simmons]

That's The Deep with Jet. The Deep, by the way, a classic. Definitely watch this on Tubi movie. It starts out with Jacqueline Bassett in a white T shirt scuba diving with Nick Nolte for like eight minutes and then getting back on the boat, just white T shirt. You can see through everything. You're like, oh, this is going to be a fun hang with. With a half. And then all of a sudden Voodoo's involved and Luke Gossett's like an evil Haitian guy. But yeah, they rope you in and then they get into the pot. CR remembers.

[Ben]

No, I'm just imagining what's going to happen when you get your hands on like the AI tech that's like voice to video where you're just like, I just want to see Jessica Alba scuba dive for like 20 more minutes and then just make a video.

[Craig]

But it's true because really they stop getting close. This is one of the things when Craig's generation took over.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

They stopped doing this. They stopped getting us to the movies. Fucking Craig with fucking Craig's generation.

[Ben]

Oh. Cause it's like the Woke Mind virus kept Jess Galba out of scuba gear.

[Craig]

We stopped going to the movies. They would say, hey, we want you to know that there is a ridiculously good looking person in this film and you should come watch it. And then we're going to do a movie as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe the Blue had Paul Walker for the latest.

[Van Lathan]

Can I refer you to the film that just won best picture? We're back, Nora.

[Ben]

Oh yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Could be, could be back.

[Craig]

Could be back.

[Van Lathan]

My generation is bringing it back now.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so Denzel in the rewatchable standings. Cruz has been 17 rewatchables. Pacino and Dinero were tied for second place at 13 and Denzel is at 12. He has now moved into second place. And we have several, several Denzel movies.

[Ben]

Including some huge ones. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Some huge ones even like come on.

[Ben]

Deja Vu at a time.

[Craig]

Well, this is my favorite era.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the one with. With Sana Lathan. So now Sonala.

[Craig]

That's out of. That's out of town.

[Bill Simmons]

I love that movie. We have to save that for sleazy Florida Keys month. Oh yeah, we just have that. Wild things and I don't know what the other two are.

[Ben]

Stick Florida Keys with Gene Hackman and Melanie Griffith. Young Melanie Griffiths.

[Craig]

Night Moves is Miami Blues in the Florida Keys. No, that's Miami.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a Miami.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we'll find sleazy Florida Keys. Not enough time that New Orleans. The two most underrated movie locations. Anyway, Denzel Making it happen. And then Russell Crowe. Oh, I should mention one thing with Denzel. So remember The Titans is 2000. Training Day wins the Oscar. John Q. Antoine Fisher, out of Time, man on Fire. My single favorite Denzel performance. As we've discussed, Manchurian Candidate. Really interesting movie. He's aged. Fantasy's a big Manchurian guy.

[Ben]

Of the Demi one.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Inside Man, Deja Vu, American Gangster. That's an eight year run. That's about as good as it gets.

[Ben]

It's made for us, right? That's like a list of films that's.

[Bill Simmons]

10 movies in a row over the span of eight years that you could just take on a desert island and be probably okay with.

[Craig]

You always wonder how someone's going to respond to the best actor, best actress, Academy Award, like now. Especially when somebody wins it. Like Denzel. Denzel, who had been a Hollywood mainstay for all of this time, right. A bunch of movies. People loved him in these films. And then he makes it to the top of the mountain with the best actor. Now. Denzel solidified top 5, top 10 leading man maybe of all time.

[Bill Simmons]

And that also. Cause he was a black actor that also had like triple significance.

[Ben]

Huge.

[Craig]

So what?

[Bill Simmons]

The Oscars didn't even know black people existed until like 1970.

[Craig]

It was a bad. The 90s were bad for that. So the. The so huge. And what does he do? Like, how does he round into being this gigantic magnetic star? And then he kind of gives you every different part of Denzel with all of. But all of these movies have edge. They're edgy performances, which when you look back at the 90s, it is not that Denzel wasn't in edgy movies. It was that he gave you a different side of himself than he did in the 2000s.

[Ben]

He also, I think in the 2000s creates the idea of like a Denzel Washington movie rather than being another people's season tickets thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I have a movie coming out and you will see it.

[Ben]

And I think, I think guys, like. I mean, the first person who jumps to mind who has obviously tried to like mimic that, although I do not think he's anywhere close to the same actor, is Wahlberg, where, you know, Wahlberg will make a family movie, an action movie and a drama, and like has a lot. And I'm making more and more action and thriller stuff now, but Denzel kind of like decides like what I like doing is working with these guys. I like making these kinds of movies and I'm gonna make two of them a year or one of them. A year and always have something going. And now, you know, more recently.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Tragedy of Macbeth, you know, doing the August Wilson films, you know, like, he's. He's coming. He. He's trying different things, but for that 2000s run, he's kind of making Denzel incorporated movies, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, he's also goes head to head with Hanks. Hanks is his big kind of rival in the 90s.

[Ben]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

But they're in a movie together that they elevate each other.

[Craig]

Hanks is his rival in the 90s.

[Bill Simmons]

And Russell Crowe is his rival in the 2000s.

[Craig]

Hanks is his rival.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz is kind of over, like.

[Ben]

Yeah, but, you know, I think, look, so American gangster is like 98. Sounds like pretty much made up, you know, like, so they get to that.

[Bill Simmons]

The based on a true story, which then you can just do anything you want. I. I name was Frank Lucas Now. Now. Let's go now.

[Ben]

Yeah, I really like Russell Crowe's performance in this movie, but there is, like, question of whether or not, like, Russell Crowe is almost like, too deferential and too, like, I'm going to. I'm going to be down here so that Denzel can be up here in the course of this film. And what would have happened if Russell Crowe had kind of chewed more scenery and like, made Richie like a larger than life character in that way?

[Craig]

Looking back on it, when I watched it, it almost felt like he did it, like, as a favor. Like Russell Crowe, the character doesn't have any bite, like, at all.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Ridley Scott was this guy. They had just done a good year together. They had done Gladiator, obviously, and I think he. He just wanted to do another movie with them. They seem like they beefed the part up a little bit. For him. This was the Russell Crowe run. Speaking of runs, this goes back to 99, mystery, Alaska, which we have not done yet. Where do you stand on that movie?

[Ben]

I like that movie.

[Bill Simmons]

The Insider, Gladiator, Proof of Life. When are we doing the reproof?

[Ben]

I mean, when are we.

[Bill Simmons]

Where do you stand on that?

[Craig]

Well, I remember this was very controversial. I enjoy the movie, but I said that the movie was the film that, like. No, no. What am I fucking doing? I don't like that shit. That shit.

[Ben]

You don't like Proof of Life?

[Craig]

No.

[Ben]

The way How'd you start it? I like that movie part.

[Bill Simmons]

He doesn't like the cuck part?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He doesn't like Hostage Cuckoos, I don't like.

[Craig]

So I like Proof of Life as a movie.

[Ben]

Proof of Life is.

[Craig]

Okay, wait a second. Listen, here's the deal. Proof of Life does not exist as a movie to me.

[Ben]

It's.

[Craig]

It exists as the cucking of a man and the ruining of his. Like. I can't separate the movie from the scandal. I can't. I can't. The movie itself is okay, but it ruined America's sweetheart, Meg Ryan.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what? It is Stuff of legends.

[Craig]

It ruined America's sweetheart, Meg Ryan. It embarrassed Dennis Quaid.

[Bill Simmons]

She had to die for the movie.

[Ben]

Dennis Quaid did not ever get it back together.

[Craig]

No, he never did. The movie is just like a. It's a bunch of mess.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Sierra and I love it. And he followed it up with A Beautiful Mind.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Then Master and commander. Remember, Concepion was a big master.

[Ben]

I'm a big master. Jason is.

[Bill Simmons]

I am Cinderella.

[Ben]

Many, many people are.

[Craig]

Now that's an underrated movie to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I think there was just too many boxing movies in a row, man, that to me, I got to watch that one again.

[Craig]

That is an underrated movie. When people talk about sports movies and particularly boxing movies, they don't mention it as much as they should. I love that movie, that.

[Bill Simmons]

Good year, Ron Har. A good year. 310 to Yuma. An American Gangster. That's sick. By the way, the 2000s. I think of all actors, that is.

[Craig]

The best movie out of all of those movies to me, besides the Insider.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

When you say he won the 2000s.

[Ben]

I think I mean especially in the.

[Bill Simmons]

Most like high end good movies.

[Ben]

2000 to 2010.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Anyway, this was it. This was like kind of the last one. This is the next year.

[Ben]

When you watch American Gangster, are you like, I wish he hadn't taken a couple of miles per hour off the fastball. Do you wish, like, he was a little bit more.

[Bill Simmons]

I gotta say, I really like the crow parts. I just think it's a. It's. It's a different movie. We're kind of over here. I don't. The child custody stuff is just bad. They should have cut it.

[Craig]

None of that should not be.

[Bill Simmons]

I do like, fuck me like a cop, don't fuck me like a lawyer.

[Craig]

Oh, he. They. That's the part of the movie that's overstuffed. We just don't need to know that about him. Yeah, no, that's not.

[Bill Simmons]

And by the way, in real life, he didn't have a kid.

[Ben]

I know, right?

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, why is this in here? They were like, oh, we gotta beef up. Gotta beef up this Character. It's like. No, I actually don't.

[Craig]

It's an attempt to give him an arc.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, anything. Like, you don't know anything about him.

[Ben]

But it's, like, interesting enough that he's like, I'm trying to go to night school, and I don't like public speaking. Like, those feel like real details. The kid stuff is just like.

[Van Lathan]

It's the classic. Like, the cop has to be neglecting his family to do his work.

[Ben]

But we do get Carl. I. Gucci do.

[Bill Simmons]

We do. But once again, like, not in the perfect way. She just never landed the plane in any of these movies, and I just want to do her career over again. So many at best.

[Craig]

Sin City.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that is true.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But here's the thing. We already had the crow piece of this. That made me understand him is that he gave the money back. He's honest. That's it. That's all we need. Honest.

[Craig]

Dude.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not like these other cops. We're good.

[Craig]

Drilling in on him as a policeman, that would have been better than any of the family stuff. Or even what was really interesting to me was the pressure from his old friends trying to bring him into the criminal life.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Like, all of that stuff. Give me two more scenes with that. Two more scenes. Give me him being like, people stink. Eyeing them again in the police station. Craig. Russell Crowe. Denzel. You grew up with these guys. Denzel, obviously bigger. But what's. What's your Russell Crowe relationship?

[Van Lathan]

I think always seen as a guy who could do, like, a ton of different things. I always. Russell Crowe was one of the best actors in my mind growing up. Beautiful Mind and Gladiator were probably the two biggest movies that I remember growing up. He was just like a guy who was always in the top five, I think, for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The cool thing, we talked about this when we did the Insider. The ability to do the Gladiator type of movie, but then also be able to just slip into, like, the Insider.

[Craig]

Guy or a character like star in Insider.

[Bill Simmons]

He's kind of, you know, it's him.

[Craig]

Yeah, he. And he's also kind of the marshmallow man in that movie. Yeah, he's the guy being poked around and who doesn't know his thing. Between 310 to Yuma and Gladiator, the 3:10 to Yuma character is the most alpha character in a movie ever.

[Bill Simmons]

That movie's so good, like, ever.

[Craig]

Just getting to it. When he gets the fork, he steals the fork, and then he just wakes up. The guy. He wakes up and he's killing that guy and the whole deal. And they pull him off of him and he's laughing. I'm like, this guy is fucking diabolical. But amazingly charming as well.

[Bill Simmons]

It's funny. So he hits the 2000 and tens, then it's over. Yeah. And he's. I think he partied pretty hard in the.

[Ben]

Yeah, I think he kind of moved in.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, he's a different version of himself, kind of.

[Ben]

I mean, he's not making exactly, like, red box movies, but he's in, like, three exorcism movies a year now.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, yeah, he was. By the way, I've seen all of them, but at least we didn't have a Mel Gibson moment with him. They had the other Australian kind of that part of the world with, you know, hard, hard parting dudes. We didn't have a Russell. Why Russell?

[Craig]

Why?

[Ben]

Yeah, did you ever see Land of Bad?

[Bill Simmons]

I like the Land of Bad where he's the drone.

[Ben]

Yeah, drone pilot.

[Bill Simmons]

Land of Bad's good. Yeah, he's been all right.

[Craig]

You know what's funny is he ends up playing Jor El in Man of Steel.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And so.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you know, I just found this out because I'll never see that movie.

[Craig]

Well, he played Jor El in Man of Steel. Actually, the best parts of man of Steel to me are the beginning parts where. In Krypton, which is, like, really good stuff to me. But his career kind of goes in like a Brando ish, older Brando ish way.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Where, you know, Brando physically changes, obviously, and he is bringing more of his reputation as Marlon Brando to movies than actual, like, real characters.

[Bill Simmons]

Certainly did that in the Exorcism movies.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like that's Russell Crowe. He's put the cue cards right there. He likes them a little closer. Can you use red ink on the cue card so he can make sure we take a break? We'll talk about the rest of the big picture stuff here. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If there's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation, it's my Apple card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today, subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025. Terms and [e-mail] this message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If there's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation, it's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025. Terms and [e-mail] all right, so we talked about Brolin. Four Oscar winners in this movie. Denzel, Russell Crowe, Common and Cuba Gooding Jr. And then Josh Brolin. Ruby D. Ruby D. John Hawks. What was he nominated in the Jennifer Lawrence.

[Ben]

The one where he's paraplegic, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Ejiovor. How do you say his name? I knew I was gonna mangle that one. He got nominated, loaded, cast, plus a bunch of that guys.

[Ben]

That's an understatement.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben]

I mean, it's like a 26 person where you're like, yep, yep, yep, yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Including, I think, some CR all stars. Yes.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Including Richie Coster.

[Ben]

John Ortiz. John Ortiz.

[Bill Simmons]

Richie Coster. Evo is who just comes in hot.

[Ben]

Who plays the crazy killer in Black Hat. But in this is Richie's childhood friend who's now in the mafia.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it possible Michael Mann and Ridley Scott just shared a Google Doc with actors they liked?

[Ben]

I just think that those guys are like, I'm ready to go. Like, put the camera on me.

[Craig]

New York guys. Yeah. Throw them in a movie. If you need the movie to feel authentic. Authentic. You want to put some texture to the movie.

[Ben]

You throw English, I think. Or Welsh. Yeah. But yeah, it's crazy how they use it.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So the story of the movie, we'll get to some of those guys when we do the categories. But there was a New York magazine story called Return of this of Superfly in 2000.

[Ben]

Mark Jacobson. Great.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Good story. I remember when it came out, it was like, holy, what an Amazing. And then Universal, imagine purchase the rights. Fincher. We're doing most of the casting windows here, but you kind of have to, because the movie. Fincher kicks the tires, couldn't figure out a budget. They start negotiating with De Palma, and the movie's called True Blue at that point, falls through. Antoine Fuqua, Denzel, Benicio Del Toro's Richie. That's March 2004. It's happening. Fuqua gets fired over creative differences. Peter Berg almost comes in right around when he's doing the Friday.

[Ben]

Denzel, like, approves of Peter Berg coming on, if that's what's going on.

[Bill Simmons]

Budget so high, the studio panics. They back out. They cancel production. Denzel and Del Toro have pay or play. Denzel just gets 20 million. Del Toro gets 5. Sounds amazing. What a great game.

[Ben]

I have that for big picture episodes. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Almost gets revived in 05 with Will Smith.

[Ben]

Huh.

[Bill Simmons]

That movie sucks. I'm just kidding. Like, Will Smith trying to be Frank Lucas. That movie's gonna be bad.

[Craig]

Yeah. It's not going to work.

[Bill Simmons]

They bring in another screenwriter named Terry George, who plans on downsizing the budget, writes a script, and he's going to get his guy from Hotel Rwanda, Don Cheadle. Vance guy.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Want to text him right now?

[Craig]

I will.

[Bill Simmons]

He was going to be Frank Lucas. They turned down the screenplay. Steve Zalian, who wrote the original screenplay. Now he's back, and all of a sudden we have Scott and Denzel and Crow. And I remember that. I'd forgotten until I did the research. But remember they were calling it the Black Godfather. They were filming it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

They're like, this is it. This is the Black Godfather.

[Ben]

Also, just to throw in, somewhere in there, there is a Richard Price draft of, like, either a rewrite of the Terry George script or there's a draft of Richard Price's script. I couldn't find it. I don't know if it's like, actually even in existence. They go back to this huge, like, 170 page Zalien script. But when you look at, like, the names involved with the shepherding slash. Almost did this. It's one of the great, like, oh, I could sit here all day and think about what the De Palma version would have been.

[Bill Simmons]

How about what the. What is the Fincher version of this?

[Ben]

I mean, it would have been.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just all the process. It probably steers more toward Richie. Right.

[Craig]

You imagine and Denzel Washington working together.

[Ben]

I mean, Fincher asking Denzel for the 71st take.

[Craig]

Do a hundred takes of one scene. My man.

[Bill Simmons]

We're done.

[Craig]

Yeah. Like, can you imagine that? The Fuqua version. I learned a lot about the business through the painful production process of this movie, because the Fuqua version was being ballyhooed and people were talking about it. It was Antoine Fuqua and Denzel reuniting, doing another movie after Training Day. And it comes out that Denzel has gotten already $20 million they've paid him. So. And it's pay or play. What does pay or play mean? Meaning that they've paid him and he gets the money. No. Whether they make the movie or not, it doesn't matter. And then. So you're figuring out they're going to make this. If they paid $20 million to Denzel Washington. The Benicio del Toro part didn't even know. And then, year after year, the movie's not coming. The movie's not coming. The movie's not coming because you don't understand that it's going through so many different eyes. And to me, it still feels like the crux of the creative differences with Antoine Fuqua is that he wanted to focus his movie on Frank Lucas, and he did not want the Richie Roberts character to be as big of a deal. And maybe that's almost what Denzel thought that he was doing as. So when you saw the film, when it came out, you go, oh, the movie has been really Scotted a little bit. Almost like Clockers. Yeah, Clockers was when Scorsese was going to figure out when she had it, it was more on Harvey Keitel's character. It was going to focus.

[Ben]

There's going to be De Niro too.

[Craig]

Right. And then Denzel gets it. Excuse me, Spike Lee gets it. And then Spike Lee reorients the movie to be around Mikai Pfeiffer's character, and it's a completely different film. It's almost like this movie happens, but in the reverse.

[Bill Simmons]

Here, they're like, denzel, here's. Here's where we are. And he's like, am I still getting my 20 million? Do you want to weigh in on script? Am I still getting my 20 million? I'll be there. When's our first day of filming? I. I just think he was moving from movie to movie at this point. I think that's his process. Denzel or Denzel, I think he wants to work with a director that he likes, and if he likes the story and likes the character he's in, he's good. Like, he's cranking out, basically, a movie every nine months at this point, you know, you're Moving on, on, on Fast.

[Craig]

His first $20 million paycheck. It's the first time it ever happened before.

[Ben]

This is a very difficult thing to balance in these kinds of genre movies where you've got the crook and the criminal and they don't. They're not necessarily in contact. I mean, they're. When does Richie figure out it's Frank at the fight? Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben]

That fight is like.

[Craig]

Oh, no, no, His. The fight. But even then, more so with his friend. Remember, his friend goes, leave Frank Lucas alone. And Richie goes, huh?

[Ben]

Oh, the Mafia guy. Yeah. He's like, I'm here to give you a message to leave Frank alone. That's an hour and a half.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

That's not even like. Yeah, Vincent Hannah being like, this crew is good in the first 10 minutes of heat, even though he doesn't know who he's talking about. So it's a. It's a delicate balance. And then to your point, like with Clockers, like, if you read the novel Clockers, like, there's. It's 50, 50 between strike and the. The Detective. And like, the Detective has all, like, all this personal stuff going on in that. And. Yeah. Like, the director will orient it and weight it. Kind of like where he wants to go.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Sierra likes the new studio. Legs Crossed, Got the Hands. Steve Zelien from 93. He writes searching for Bobby Fiser, which we did in the rewatchables. Clear and Present Danger, Schindler's List, Mission Impossible, the Civil Action, Hannibal, Gangs of New York, the Interpreter. What was that one?

[Ben]

That was the Sean Penn Kidman movies.

[Bill Simmons]

All the Kings Band, American Gangster, Moneyball, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. And that's all in less than 20 years.

[Ben]

And he just directed that's impressive. And wrote Ripley on Netflix last year. And he had done the Night of with Richard Price a couple of years ago.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So there you go. Anyway, they finally make the movie and.

[Craig]

They get a comeback movie for him. A little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Craig]

All the King's Men. Tough.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Ridley Scott, who. This will be, I think, the fifth or sixth one we've done for him.

[Ben]

Is that all?

[Bill Simmons]

Every seven years. He just has, like, an eternal banger. Alien 79, Blade Runner 82, Black Rain 89 for me and cr.

[Craig]

Heavy.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I'll send you your Evite for the Black Rain we're watching.

[Craig]

No, that one's one I with is.

[Bill Simmons]

Heavy Thumb and Louise 91, GI Jane 97, Gladiator, Gangster, Martian in 2015. It's just, he's. Oh, you don't go more than seven years without him being heard from. Although we have now.

[Ben]

He's basically making a movie and prepping a movie at the same time. And he's been doing that for basically the last 30 years. And I think he has an incredibly high floor at an increasingly lower and lower ceiling. But every once in a while, because He's. Because he's 80.

[Bill Simmons]

Older than Jerry Johnson.

[Ben]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

Ridley Scott definitely would have traded Mike. Ridley Scott is like, we're getting two first round picks and it's.

[Craig]

And you. You like Napoleon, right?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

You would have thought that there was no way that the movie could miss.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Because the last duel. Fantastic, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Football coaches and directors, you would have.

[Craig]

Thought that there's no way to know. And then you go and you watch Napoleon. It is a mess. And you're like, is with all of the talent?

[Ben]

And how is this. This boring?

[Bill Simmons]

Did you ever see the Duelist's first movie?

[Ben]

Yeah, it's awesome.

[Craig]

I've never seen that.

[Bill Simmons]

It's amazing. Yeah, it's really weird.

[Craig]

But then he also. Yeah. Small.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a Tubi classic.

[Ben]

Yeah. But like, Matchstick Management is like, he's the. He is the king of. I saw it in the theater and I was so excited. And it wasn't as good as I thought it was going to be. And then 10 years later, you're like, you know what? Robin Hood's okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I kind of enjoy costumes. Seven accents in this movie.

[Craig]

Even this. This American Gangster is. And like a lot of the stuff that we've talked about this film, a lot of the people that they threw in this movie is because I think you can feel the pressure of making this movie a huge, huge deal for everybody in it with the amount of people that's in that common ti. Everyone gotta go see it. So they overstuffed the film because after all the rumors and after everything they had put into the production, they needed people to get out to the theaters to go see this. It was a big part of Denzel's career, all of that stuff. But also just in the Ridley Scott, like, Denzel Washington portion of this movie, these drug dealer biopics, they're not as many of them as you think they are.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Craig]

Most of the drug dealers.

[Bill Simmons]

You're saying we need more?

[Craig]

Well, I'm saying that they're hard to make. Most of the drug dealer movies that we like that are legendary are about fictional characters. These stories don't turn out well. You got this. You have played in full. You have bloat all of those movies end up in profound tragedy. Somebody going to jail, leaving their daughter, whatever, whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

And so nobody just gets away.

[Ben]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, like, also the more nuanced, complicated versions of these stories is moved into television. So, like, I mean, Bumpy Johnson is that. That's Godfather now. But Narcos and the Wire kind of like, created a. A much higher standard of, like, here's the nuances of how this stuff works.

[Bill Simmons]

Our new show, Task.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I'm saying we didn't see Task.

[Craig]

I saw you guys are getting really excited about it. Like, the movies aren't easy to make. They go.

[Ben]

Do you say big boner.

[Bill Simmons]

Big TV boner for task.

[Craig]

Is it that good? I saw you guys doing Prestige on it.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, what do you think? What's your best one season HBO show ever?

[Van Lathan]

True Detective.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. I think it's as good as True Detective season one.

[Ben]

True Detective.

[Bill Simmons]

I do.

[Craig]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I've only seen three episodes, though.

[Ben]

I'm. I'm.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm.

[Ben]

Wait. I. I watched the first one, but I don't want to watch ahead.

[Bill Simmons]

So we. I watched ahead only because we. We banked a couple prestige pots.

[Van Lathan]

You think it's True Detective Season 1 Level Good?

[Bill Simmons]

I do.

[Craig]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I do. And I. As you know, I don't say stuff like that lately. I was blown away.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Also set in CR's, Pennsylvania, and CR was in a biker gang when he was there.

[Ben]

That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like there's a lot.

[Ben]

Sir Kristen Cole riding around Philly.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Two Oscar nominations for this movie, Art direction, and Ruby D for supporting actress. I forgot this until I did the research. This was one of the first sabotage campaigns because they were so loose with the facts. It became a huge story as we headed toward the Oscars.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

When this came out, people were like, denzel's getting nominated. And by the time we got to the Oscars, people are like, they made all this shit up in the movie. No way.

[Ben]

Kind of happened with Gladiator 2 just recently where it was like, oh, Denzel nailed on. It's going to happen. And.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

$100 million budget made 269 million. How about this, Van? Biggest opening weekend out of any film for either Denzel or Russell Crowe. I can see that in 07.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Roger Ebert. He's right to your right. He's looking at you right over there. Two books, Right.

[Ben]

I read this review.

[Bill Simmons]

Four stars.

[Ben]

Unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

An engrossing story told smoothly and well. Russell Crowe's contribution is enormous. He was really into Crow, but. And he said the film ends not with a Scarface style shootout, but with Frank and Richie sitting down for a long, intelligent conversation. Written by Zali. And it showed two smart men who both know this score. As I hinted above, less Godfather than Wall street, blah, blah, blah. Raj really into it, really liked our 400th movie. All right, let's do the categories. So here's why, you know, it's a rewatchable. I have, like, 14 rewatchables.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's a whole fucking.

[Bill Simmons]

Including the opening credits. Because this movie starts with Denzel setting a guy on fire and shooting him six times. And we're off.

[Ben]

Yeah, tonally, kind of like. You're like, okay, here we go.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, I'll just throw out some, and then if I forgot any, tell me. After Richie finds $987,000 in her trunk and debates with his partner John Ortiz, what to do, we'll be fucking pariahs. Cops kill cops they can't trust.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that true?

[Ben]

Sierra in the 1970s, perhaps?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. We also get Ted Levine. Didn't mention him at the top.

[Ben]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

He's the. The sergeant.

[Craig]

She.

[Ben]

Big fat person. You don't know.

[Craig]

What pretty nice lady.

[Bill Simmons]

Love seeing him.

[Craig]

I can't unsee him out of that. Every time I see it, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, he just kind of kept changing hairstyle, how his hair is, what he's doing.

[Craig]

I see that every time. I can't. I can't. I can't unsee.

[Bill Simmons]

Puts the lotion on its skin or against the hose again. Yes, she will. Precious small scene, but I like when Richie screams at the park hoodlums when he's arguing with his wife.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Good times. I just wrote down Denzel goes to Bangkok. I don't even know. There's like, four scenes in here.

[Ben]

Defeated army man.

[Bill Simmons]

When has it ever been bad to go to Bangkok in a movie like this? I'm gonna say never.

[Ben]

It's also like, it is the movie that wasn't there, but you're like, this guy going to Bangkok and the golden triangle and negotiating with this fallen army for uncut heroin would have been. That's the.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you come back from 1970s Bangkok?

[Craig]

No. There's one scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you in one of those coffins?

[Craig]

There was one scene where Denzel calls his Kinect and the guy's getting a massage, and I'm like, that's the life I'm supposed to be living, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Just multiple massage people.

[Craig]

Multiple massage people.

[Ben]

And I don't know about the Bangkok part, but I do know, like, In Saigon. That was true. That there was, like, a lot of black GIs had.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Clubs and stuff like that.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Bill Simmons]

They.

[Craig]

And they kind of. Some of them that. Once again, I was about to say that, like, that's the more interesting film. Navigating. That some of them stayed there, made lives there, had children there. The whole nine. Yeah.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

More rewatchable scenes. Okay. We haven't talked about this yet. Jake unravels John Ortiz.

[Ben]

I had to do it, man.

[Bill Simmons]

So John Ortiz, for the people who don't really. He's. He's. He's the guy who jumps out of the car in this movie.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

After he's. They have to. This is the scene where they have to pretend this guy's still alive. They will him out even though he obviously killed this drug dude and stole money from him and he's lost his way. Same guy from Miami Vice.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Who played the one who worked with. With. Or who's. What was the name of the bad. The main bad guy.

[Ben]

The cute. The main Cuban.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Or the guy who's in the Colombian jungle. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And he becomes the villain of the movie. And he's amazing in that movie. He was also in a couple other ones that we'll talk about later.

[Craig]

Wasn't he in that?

[Ben]

He's in Carlito's Way. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a leper because I listen to you and I gave up a million bucks. He's just on one. I like when people jump out of cars and movies, too. I mean, desperation every time when you do that.

[Ben]

There's two really crucial, like, connections that they make earlier. One is when the John Pido is talking to Frank Lucas or the John Plato character is talking to Denzel's character about. They're still stepping on the French Connection. Don't like the cops who got Popeye Doyle's dope from Marseille are stealing it from the evidence room, stepping on it and selling it. And it's like heroin is. It just sucks now.

[Craig]

Right.

[Ben]

And there's no order anymore. And these cops are such bastards. So, like, the connection to the French Connection, the film and the story. And then also just the idea that if you were a upstanding cop in 1970s New York, you were a pariah. And that, like, that would drive the John Ortiz character to drug use.

[Craig]

You know, like, that's one observation. One thing that the movie really gets right is all of the competing cultural narratives in the 70s, the corruption of the cops, Harlem exploding as a center with celebrities and partying. But also this tremendous Drug use. And then just sort of Frank Lucas and his criminal connection to the source in Vietnam. To all of the stuff that's happening on the street.

[Ben]

Yeah. And also just like an entire generation of men coming back from Vietnam and one in three of them's got an opium drug problem.

[Craig]

Yeah. So that. That part of the movie really gets all of that stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Right, Craig, out of your two fantasy partners. Danny and Danny. Who's more likely to lose it like John Ortiz does in this. And jump out of a van.

[Craig]

Hi.

[Van Lathan]

Fix is constantly on the verge of jumping out of moving cars because of a bad fantasy figure.

[Bill Simmons]

Keep an eye on. He's getting paid under the table by. By fantasy sites. Everyone's doing it, man.

[Van Lathan]

Dart flops. He will jump out of a moving car.

[Bill Simmons]

The Blue Magic drug montage scene. I love the making it. Making the drugs montage is always fun. Right into Richie in the courtroom. Right into the kitchen with his.

[Ben]

With his lawyer.

[Bill Simmons]

With his lawyer. Which I'm going to. We rarely get to give this out. The I used to fuck guys like you in prison award for craziest quote.

[Ben]

Is to Katie Strickland.

[Bill Simmons]

Richie fucked me like a cop, not a lawyer.

[Craig]

Boy.

[Bill Simmons]

Was there like a. Is there a different way? Like a lawyer. He would have been, like, more gentle. She trying to get Richie.

[Ben]

Also low key. Great stick man. And has to answer the phone.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Post or during sex multiple times in this movie.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got a little sly smile to him.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I think the. I think the cop is probably, you know, I think that's probably like, more primal. Yeah. Cause the cop is authoritative and he's working for overtime. Yeah. The cop doesn't care about your rights. The cop is imposing himself. Meanwhile, the lawyer is probably, you know, caring about your civil rights and asking more questions.

[Ben]

There's a lot of caveats, a lot of precedents and all of that.

[Bill Simmons]

Feeling okay.

[Craig]

Nah. The cop just comes out and plants the dick right on you. Is probably what she wanted. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Katie Strickland never got close. Never quite made it, but got really close.

[Craig]

Got close. Man. I love their private practice. This. She did a Tyler Perry.

[Bill Simmons]

I always thought.

[Ben]

I always thought she was a Tyler Perry movie.

[Craig]

I think it's called. I think she was in a movie called the Family that Prays, which is the best Tyler Perry movie. She was in it. Like, she got. She almost. She almost got there.

[Bill Simmons]

Next scene. CR's favorite. Frank kills Tango.

[Ben]

Yeah. The sugar jar. You gonna do Frank? It's great. You gonna do Frank? You want to shoot me?

[Craig]

That's the scene in this movie that lives on. Every great gangster movie has to have a scene, just one scene that lives on throughout the movie. At least one.

[Bill Simmons]

I was gonna do this for Apex Mountain, but we could do it here better. Idris Elba on screen death. This Stringer with Omar and Brother Mazon is Stringer.

[Craig]

It's Stringer.

[Ben]

It's. It's Stringer. But I will say Denzel pulling the gun and putting it to his head, the facial expression he makes is the hardest thing I've ever seen in my life.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, you hadn't seen this movie before, right?

[Van Lathan]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

What were your. What was your reaction to that moment?

[Van Lathan]

They never do this. There's never. I can't think of another movie where the guy who's like, what, are you going to shoot me in the street? He actually shoots him. It never happens.

[Bill Simmons]

It was great.

[Craig]

Yeah. String still gets me, though, when I do a wild rewatch. String just kind of get on with it. Yeah. Like, Omar tells him, and he's like, you know what? If that's where I'm at, just take me out, you know?

[Van Lathan]

What I'll say, though, is Frank doesn't even get the satisfaction of letting Idris Elba's character know that he did it. You know what I mean? Like, I would almost shoot him in the leg first and then, like, the heart, so he can think about it as he's dying.

[Craig]

An insane person.

[Ben]

When you shoot him in it, he doesn't even know.

[Craig]

I knew it was something behind those eyes, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Why are you, like, listening?

[Van Lathan]

He's like, what are you going to do, shoot me? He. He technically doesn't even know he got shot. You know what I mean?

[Craig]

Are we.

[Bill Simmons]

Are we positive Frank was going to shoot him before he said that?

[Craig]

Do you know what I wonder?

[Ben]

I don't think he expected him to actually give him the money. I think he was like, look at this motherfucker.

[Craig]

I wonder if Frank would have shot him, if his family wouldn't have been.

[Ben]

There, because it was to show them.

[Craig]

I think he was making a fucking statement to.

[Van Lathan]

Just got to New York.

[Craig]

Yeah. And so he goes out there. I know Frank was about his shit, but he goes out, he's talking to them, and then he's like, oh, here's an opportunity to show them. Either this guy's gonna pay me right now or he's gonna pay the price. And it just asked for it.

[Ben]

Shouldn't.

[Van Lathan]

Shot him in the heart.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes. He didn't suffer. Craig wants more suffering.

[Craig]

Craig wants this.

[Ben]

He need you.

[Craig]

Need him to know Craig is like, I want the man that I killed to look me in my eyes as he dies. Fucking crazy person.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Well, now we know, right?

[Craig]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

A pretty. A pretty enticing. DN waiter's resume from. From Idris Elba in this movie.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

A lot of swagger. Richie gets his money back from Trupo. Enjoyed that. So this might be my number one.

[Ben]

Oh, that's Trupo. That's never come here unannounced.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, this might be my number one. Frank freaks out at his own party.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a piano assault. Somebody says, come on, man, that's your cousin.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Always enjoy that.

[Ben]

I almost wish they would have delved more into Frank's discomfort with the trappings of being a big time drug dealer.

[Bill Simmons]

That's just 10 extra minutes that you could have had from all the stupid.

[Ben]

And he's like, constantly, take the sunglasses off. Don't do this, don't do that. And then, like, when he tries to get into it, it blows up in his face. It's just really fascinating.

[Bill Simmons]

That's twenty five thousand dollar alpaca. Yeah, you blocked that.

[Craig]

You blocked that. The. The most interesting thing about the character is that he is so loyal to his family. He brings them up to make them his organization because he feels like they are the only people that he can trust. Yet they vex him throughout the entire movie. They're country, they're stupid.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably not a great professional move.

[Craig]

He was so untrustworthy for people that he would have had to go into business with that he had to do this. And then at every turn, they become his undoing. And that scene is kind of the first scene. It's just he's so flabbergasted. Beats him up. Everybody get out. And I love scenes where people get kicked out of a party. The.

[Ben]

The part when Stevie, played by T.I. is like, I don't want to play baseball anymore. I want to be you. Is like. It's such a great moment for Denzel because it's like, is he flattered or is he disappointed that this is what it's come to?

[Craig]

You know, he brought him up there.

[Ben]

To play for the Yankees.

[Craig]

To play for the Yankees so that he did not have to be him.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And everyone is just descending into what Frank is rather than ascending to something better than what he could be.

[Bill Simmons]

Gotta be honest, the scene could have been two, three more minutes.

[Ben]

The baseball, the party.

[Bill Simmons]

Just the whole party.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

This next one too. The Ali Frazier fight with fake Ali. And Fake Frazier, one of the worst.

[Craig]

Ali's that I've seen in film.

[Bill Simmons]

I had it coming up. On what stage? The worst. Yeah. They didn't even try. They didn't even try. They're like, hey, is it a black guy? All right, cool.

[Ben]

Just the depiction of. That's the garden, right? Is that supposed to be the garden? Like, you're like, Ridley Scott, man. Make a boxing movie. Like, this is incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

So I wrote. I wrote down. This could have been three to four more minutes. And I would have liked to have seen a round.

[Ben]

Yeah, right.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, just. It didn't have to be the 15th round, the famous round I throw me in the fourth round as somebody's eating a hot dog.

[Craig]

But just to live in that moment. I mean, obviously it's a formative moment for the lore of Frank Lucas. I mean, that's the one lesson, the enduring lesson in the movie is don't wear the fur. You know what I mean? But. But that is a really important historical moment. We could have stayed there and hung out with Sammy Davis Jr. Frank Sinatra was there.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, everybody was there.

[Van Lathan]

Everybody.

[Ben]

Woody Allen and Diane Keaton.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. I have that as a nitpick. I don't think they were dating for another six years. That's where they needed the ringer consultancy firm. Hey, guys, scrap that. Nobody knew Diane Keenan even been in the Godfather. Trupo ruins Frank's wedding day. Brolin's just like, I just like Brolin in this. I like the bro. Just. Just the Brolin cooking.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Frank sells Cuba Gooding on Blue Magic. What's interesting here is this is just who Cuba Gooding became in every movie or TV show. This character for the next 20 years. Even he played O.J. simpson like this.

[Ben]

I have to say, he's. This is. You're talking about the Catch me infringement Insist.

[Bill Simmons]

That scene, just like dialing it up. Seeming like a little bleary eye.

[Ben]

He's good.

[Craig]

I.

[Bill Simmons]

He's good at this movie.

[Craig]

That scene I like. You have Idris as Dion Waiters.

[Ben]

I have him as pretty good drunk acting.

[Craig]

Because you forget because he's one of these actors that his public Persona has become bigger than the work, Right? But when you watch that scene, yeah, he's great. He plays it real cool.

[Ben]

I love it. He's going up against Denzel. He's like, I've called Red. Magic's not as good of a fucking name. You know what I mean? He's really got that guy nailed in that one scene.

[Bill Simmons]

The plane search is great. Frank's. What's. What's. What's I'm blanking on Russell Crowe's characters. And Richie. Richie, he's searching the coffins. Brolin's looking for the dope. Brolin just kills the duck.

[Craig]

That. That sucks.

[Bill Simmons]

That's when you know Trupo needs to die.

[Craig]

He's gotta.

[Bill Simmons]

But I love that whole part. And then we get the final police thing. Shootout. We get naked gunfight. We get Frank coming out to church. 400 cops. It's amazing. Grace is playing. There's a Crow versus Denzel section. That's fun. You know what normal is to me? I ain't seen normal since I was 6 years old. Denzel gets a nice speech, and then Trupo kills himself.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

What did I miss?

[Ben]

You didn't miss anything. This is a very strangely constructed movie because the scenes are very fast. There's a lot of them. There is a lot of, like, dense visual information in every one of them. But it's like, this isn't one where I'm like. There are a bunch of scenes. I would probably say, like, tango is the most rewatched scene for me. But my favorite scene is the final Richie Frank interview.

[Bill Simmons]

The back and forth.

[Craig]

Yeah. I think the most important scene in the movie is actually Frank bringing his family from North Carolina. And the moment that they see everything.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And walking through Harlem for the first time. Or the big house that they've built.

[Craig]

The big house. And his mother and all of that. Because that becomes the central struggle of the movie. Like a guy who has all of this trauma, who believes deeply in America, but not in the America that is supposed to work for him in the America that actually does. And that's why everything he does is illicit. And he listens to Bumpy and all of that. So that's one scene. But then I just. Like, whenever Denzel and Armand Asante are on screen together, like those two scenes, your success took a shot at you, like, all time. Great line.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have, Craig?

[Van Lathan]

Anything in Bangkok?

[Ben]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. I'm like this. I'm learning about you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Craig's the dark side coming out. Episode 400.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the most 2007 thing about this movie? Normally we have like, five, six, seven choices. There's only one answer.

[Ben]

Oh, I have one. What's yours?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you go.

[Ben]

TI in common is up and coming. Young, like actors in this movie.

[Craig]

Yeah, done.

[Bill Simmons]

That's fine.

[Ben]

Young TI.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not what I had.

[Craig]

So that. That's.

[Bill Simmons]

That's.

[Craig]

I mean, the movie has T.I. anthony Hamilton and. And common in it. Like, the rappers like, that's.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good runner up choice.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

What's yours?

[Craig]

What's yours?

[Bill Simmons]

They invited Jay Z to a screening and he was so impressed. He made an album called American Gangster. That's the most 2007 thing ever.

[Craig]

Hey, that's a very important moment in hip hop.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, cause it was a little comeback album for him.

[Craig]

Well, he had come back with I think Kingdom Come and he had done Blueprint already. Yeah, well, he had. No, he had done the Blueprint, but what I mean is Jay Z had retired.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Craig]

And then he had come back with an album that was very controversial. Some people loved it, some people hated it. It's aged really well. But then American Gangster is a theme album and that's kind of like HOV is still. HOV is very important in his career to me.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll take one more break and then we'll do what stage is best. This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. You know what's great about summer? With all the pool parties, picnics with your partner, and game nights with the guys, you have an abundance of opportunities to get together with everyone. It's even better when there's delicious food to enjoy and the best way to get that tasty spread. Boar's Head. They have what you need to elevate your summer entertaining. Freshly sliced meat cheese that makes the ultimate sandwich platter. Right? Or you could create the perfect snack from their premium hummus and dips collection. It's a premium hummus and dips collection. They have this new basil pesto hummus that looks so good right at my daughter's wheelhouse this summer. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite at your local Boar's Head deli. Boar's Head, committed to craftsman since 1905. This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Viori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Viori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to viori.com and you get 20% off your first purchase with Vuori. V-U-O-R-I.com Simmons enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. What's age the best. What do you got, Sierra?

[Ben]

A couple things. Number one, it was nominated, but the art direction and the production design, Arthur Max, who does all of Ridley Scott's stuff. There are shots in the montage of people ODing on Blue Magic where you see, like, a bathroom or a bedroom or, you know, even on a street corner, and you're like, holy shit. Like, there's more depth to this, like, set dressing and, like, what, like, props are in this shot than there are in some, like, entire films or TV series. So it's just always so, like, layered and interesting to look at this movie. I also really think that there's, like, some good thematic coherence in Zelien script where it's, like, for instance, bumpy talking about the department store ruining the corner store and how it's like, well, these guys just buy straight from the manufacturer. And what does Frank do? Buy straight from the manufacturer? Like, he takes different lessons. Like, a lot of the capitalism stuff. It might be a little on the nose, but I think, like, the script does a really good job, and the movie does a really good job of being like, this is more about capitalism than it is about crime, you know, And I also just really enjoy watching topless women pack drugs.

[Craig]

Always.

[Ben]

Always works.

[Bill Simmons]

So I had that as well as what stage?

[Craig]

The.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think it's ever not worked in a movie.

[Van Lathan]

Why do they do that? Yeah, it's because they can't steal anything.

[Ben]

Yeah, it is.

[Van Lathan]

That's why.

[Bill Simmons]

Couldn't they wear, like, what the actresses wear the tape over their nipples. Like, could. They could be, like, somewhat discreet.

[Craig]

Also, you need them to commit. You need them to say, hey, if you want to handle the dope, you got to come in here naked. You need to buy in.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm pretty sure it's an HR violation, but I'm not positive.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You have to be completely naked.

[Ben]

Do you think Red Top was doing HR as well as floor manager?

[Bill Simmons]

If he had hr, I had. Do you have any. In what stage?

[Craig]

The best I do this movie, to me, is the beginning of the Denzel era. We're in now. This is where it starts. Like, there's the Denzel on his climb, and then there's Denzel in his solidifying stage. And then this movie begins kind of the era of Denzel as an entity.

[Bill Simmons]

Denzel incorporated.

[Craig]

Yeah. As much as an actor. Cause after this, he just starts. He no longer does any movie that he feels like. He just does stuff that is cool to him, and that's kind of the we kind of.

[Bill Simmons]

It kind of starts with unstoppable being a train.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah. And then when he decides like in the spot that he's in now, when he decides that, he goes, okay, well, I feel like the art is not being elevated. I'll do fences. I'll do some Shakespeare stuff. I'll elevate the art through movies that I'm actually in.

[Bill Simmons]

I like it. I had what stage the best. Anytime a movie has a character named Bumpy.

[Ben]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm probably feeling good about where we're going.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

If the first person we're hearing from is named Bumpy, I'm probably gonna see this movie nine times.

[Ben]

Clarice Williams. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I was trying to think of what athlete could change their name to Bumpy. Like, could this save Kyle Pitts? I'm not Kyle Pitts anymore. I'm Bumpy Pitts.

[Craig]

Bumpy Pitts is a hard ass name.

[Bill Simmons]

Bumpy Pitts. Like, shit. What if Bumpy Pitts is coming back this year?

[Ben]

Bumpy Markkanen. And it was just like, oh, you don't. You don't want to test him.

[Bill Simmons]

Marketing.

[Craig]

Bumpy marketing.

[Bill Simmons]

Sam Houser becomes Bumpy Hauser.

[Ben]

Oh, what about Bumpy Wembanyama? That's kind of like where it maybe goes the other way.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

It's nice.

[Bill Simmons]

Now it's got to be a cook. 1.

[Craig]

How many bumpy's been portrayed on film? A lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Bumpy seemed great Giveaway turkeys.

[Craig]

I think twice.

[Ben]

Well, now he's Forest Whitaker.

[Craig]

Right. Forest Whitaker. Laurence Fishburne. Lawrence Fishburne. Twice. Maybe.

[Ben]

Did he.

[Craig]

Because I think maybe he did it in the Cotton Club too. Maybe a young.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, well, he had some big picture thoughts about life.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And very important with him.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I had Vietnam's whole. They had that news story about Vietnam and all the heroin, opium addiction with the soldiers. And I was like, could spend another like eight minutes on this. I'm really interested in this.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Has that been in the mood in a movie in the right way? Because I was racking my brain.

[Ben]

It's. So there's a. What the amazing novel called Dog Soldiers by Robert Stone that got made into who'll Stop the Rain? The Nick Nolte movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Ben]

And that's about bringing drugs back from Vietnam. There's a. There's, there's a lot of writing about it. There hasn't been as many.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody's laying.

[Ben]

There's many films. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Van. 360 scenes filmed in 180 locations.

[Craig]

Crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

That is just the. What stage the best for Holy. Yeah, I put. We talked about him earlier. Any movie with Ted Levine. I just like seeing him.

[Ben]

Yep.

[Craig]

It's awesome.

[Ben]

Oh, I have one.

[Bill Simmons]

Big fat lady.

[Ben]

Brolin'S face when he gets his car blown up.

[Craig]

Yeah. Which is like the car itself.

[Ben]

The car is. Was it. What kind of car is that?

[Craig]

Shelby. Like, those cars came back. Like, John Wick brought those cars back. Like, yeah, the car itself. Beautiful car.

[Ben]

And then I love the exchange between Trupo and Frank when he's just like, how about I like, throw you and your brother in the fucking river? He's like, how about next time I blow up your fucking house?

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Frank got some balls on him. They didn't call Frank with a couple kilos of raw in the fucking trunk. And Frank still, like, the cop is a full on criminal. They're just doing criminal talk.

[Bill Simmons]

So there's a little thing in here when Frank starts pouring a lot of sugar in his coffee, that means his bodyguard has to be officially monitoring the situation. I'm gonna start doing that.

[Craig]

Who's your bodyguard?

[Bill Simmons]

Just for. For all. For all podcasts. That's what Kyle has going a certain way. And all of a sudden I'm just pouring sugar. Craig's like, oh, something's going wrong with Bill. Like, he'll know.

[Craig]

So you're the bodyguard.

[Bill Simmons]

Not the bodyguard.

[Craig]

But just to be honest with you, now I feel like you could fucking do it.

[Van Lathan]

I'm going right for the heart.

[Bill Simmons]

Going right for the heart.

[Craig]

You're gonna know that.

[Bill Simmons]

Horror.

[Van Lathan]

Craig.

[Craig]

Bangkok. Craig. Horrible.

[Bill Simmons]

Naked Ladies Cutting cocaine. John Ortiz. In the span of two and a half years. Miami Vice, American Gangster, Fast and Furious and Public Enemies.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

God bless that dude. I love him. I have a quick Tao of American Gangster. I wanted to put it as what stage the best. These five quotes.

[Ben]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

You could be successful and have enemies, or you could be unsuccessful and have friends.

[Ben]

You think that's true?

[Bill Simmons]

I just think. Great yearbook quote. Yeah, put that throw. I'm going to tell Ben when it's senior year, I'm going to just have.

[Craig]

Him throw that in there.

[Bill Simmons]

The loudest one in the room is the weakest one in the room. Not untrue.

[Ben]

Doesn't work for podcasting, but yeah, right?

[Craig]

Or maybe it does.

[Bill Simmons]

It works for espn.

[Craig]

Oh, Jesus.

[Bill Simmons]

Was that a shots fired? It's not what works at espn.

[Craig]

It was the shots fired. But hey, get your shit off. I'm fucking with it.

[Bill Simmons]

You are what you are what you are in this world. That's either one of two things. Either you're somebody or you ain't nobody.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The number one fear of people isn't dying. It's public speaking that's in there. And then quitting while you're ahead is not the same as quitting.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

What a great quote.

[Craig]

You know what? I think this. This is how you know I was never cut out for the street. Cause I think you up 60. They seized 250 million.

[Ben]

But do you feel that way in Vegas?

[Craig]

I don't gamble, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Craig]

So I'm saying is like, that's probably the reason why I'm like, hey, if I'm frank, I'm like, hey, bro, you up 100 million, man. Wash that 75. You got it after you washed it, right? Take that, put it in the s and P500. Like, you're good. It's over. But they can't stop because it's never actually about the money.

[Bill Simmons]

It was like Craig and the. Danny's in New Orleans.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The craps table.

[Craig]

You quit.

[Bill Simmons]

You quit where you're headed.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

You could have paid for your life, but nope.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm there playing blackjack with people vacuuming under my legs.

[Craig]

If I could tell the story of all of the ringer people huddled around the. That was an eye opening scene.

[Van Lathan]

That was some blue magic right there.

[Craig]

That was some blue magic. Watching everybody that you work with.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll be honest. I'll just admit this now. It's the 400th episode. I'll never fully forgive Raheem for bidding on the don't come lying in craps ten years from now. Forgive it.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I just thought it was completely unacceptable. He works with and his friends.

[Van Lathan]

Craps is hunkering down together.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's. Craps is all about community and togetherness.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Do you remember at Vegas summer league when we had that weird Caesar suite that you guys filmed? I don't know if you were working with us yet.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he was not. It was 2018 and it.

[Ben]

There was. I was sitting in this suite and it was him, House and Chang, and House and Chang, I think had been up all night and then gotten off strip gumbo somewhere.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And then come back to the hotel room to. To talk about the previous evening's gambling.

[Bill Simmons]

We did like a morning show, morning post game wrap up Shang winning a.

[Ben]

Bone white chip that he needed to have like his Social Security number to cash out or something like that. And these guys, like, betting not just the table, but like different people at the table. Like, they're betting against, like, how. How deep did it go? Like the layers of how we were.

[Bill Simmons]

Basically in Bangkok, even though it was.

[Ben]

Las Vegas and I was sitting there watching it. I'm like, this is probably what it was like to like Miles Davis and John Coltrane on stage together. Except for being a degenerate, not playing jazz.

[Craig]

I loved it. I remember we're in New Orleans and it's super bowl and like people are walking by and they're going, bill Simmons right there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Bill is locked.

[Bill Simmons]

Why is he yelling?

[Craig]

Every Bill is locked in. I love locked in. And then Craig. Because, Craig, you went on a little run that night.

[Bill Simmons]

You did?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I kept the night alive.

[Bill Simmons]

The Danny's were hugging like they won the game seven of the World Series.

[Craig]

We. It was the most community I felt maybe at the ringer. Everybody was together. It was fantastic.

[Ben]

Can I throw one more? What's age the best out there.

[Bill Simmons]

So are you saying we should do a Vegas ringer trip?

[Craig]

Definitely should, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We should do it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Right after Trupo and Richie meet for the first time, when he's like, don't ever come here unannounced, one of Trupo's guys goes, let's go hit some balls. I do remember that.

[Craig]

That he's like, I got a tea time. The guy's getting in the car behind.

[Ben]

The troop, but it's like, is he driving with that? Like, where is he going?

[Craig]

And it. One of those guys. Eugene for Eugene from the Sopranos, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, here's a category we don't get to give out that often. The Sean fantasy word. Sadly not here for stealth homage. That gives every movie nerd a criteria. Orgasm. So the very last scene is an homage to the very first thriller when the robber looked at the audience and pointed a gunfire and the screen went blank. The Great train robbery in 1903. Same about that.

[Ben]

Joe Pesci straight to this camera.

[Bill Simmons]

Big Kuna Burger war. Best use of fruit or drink. I think it's pouring all the sugar coffee, right?

[Ben]

It's definitely the sugar jar.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Okay, what do you have for great Chuck Gordo?

[Ben]

There is a shot when Frank brings his brothers to the apartment building where Red Top has all the ladies for the first time. As they're walking up the stairs, it cuts into the apartment and there is a shot of a naked lady wearing a shower cap with her feet up on the table reading a magazine that says like. It's like for Jamaican rum. It's an ad and she's smoking and the news is on tv. And if you put that picture, if you freeze that and put. It would be like Life magazine. It is unreal how deep, like, every prop makes sense. And it's just this awesome, like, language shot in the middle of this, like, crime thriller. I love that shot. Also the. The slow kind of reveal of Richie standing in front of Frank at church.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's good. Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness or our best needle drop. That 110th street song is good in this, but the Amazing Grace for the mass arrest is pretty good. I don't know what we'd have at the end.

[Craig]

The Public Enemy, when Frank, like, it's my favorite Public Enemy record. Can't trust it when Frank, like, leaves and he's back out on the street now and he's like a man without a country. And everything's kind of changed, but everything kind of is the same. That's mine.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think they should. Because American Gangster came out after this movie. Do you think they should retroactively go back and cut, like, two of the songs into this movie since he basically was inspired by the movie?

[Craig]

What are you talking about? Oh, talking about Jay Z. Yeah. Oh, like.

[Bill Simmons]

And put them, like, almost like a director's cut.

[Ben]

Re edit or not, like, with that music in it. I think it takes you out of the time period probably.

[Craig]

So. Yeah, you want to stay in it.

[Bill Simmons]

The Chess Rockwell Brocklanders award for best character name is obviously Ice Pick Paul.

[Ben]

Yeah, I had Moses Jones, Riz's character.

[Craig]

But also, like, anytime there's a character named Bruiser.

[Bill Simmons]

Bruiser.

[Craig]

I love a character named.

[Bill Simmons]

How about Bangkok Craig?

[Craig]

Bangkok Craig. Shoot him in the manhole. Shoot him in the hall.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig was buried.

[Ben]

Heart shot.

[Craig]

Horback. Heart shot. Hor.

[Bill Simmons]

Cr. You have a flex category.

[Craig]

Bastard.

[Ben]

I brought two with me today. Sean Friend. The Sean Penn. I brought my own Pack Award for excellence in onscreen smoking. John Hawks is smoking all the time. It's just cameras happen to be on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And he is getting really, really down to the filter. Like, that's. That's when you know it's real, is when guys are down around the stub because that's where they keep the good stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Good one.

[Ben]

Ed Norton Reverse D award. Did this movie need a random sports scene? A little bit of a. A variation on this. Are you telling me Harry Dean Stanton couldn't play Billy Martin and come watch Stevie Lucas pitch a little bit?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's sitting right there. He's perfect age.

[Craig]

That. That was my flex. I wanted to see. I wanted to see that scene. I wanted to see ti. How about rip it at 95 miles.

[Ben]

He obviously. I don't think he could because right when he's like, I'm about to throw it, they would cut away.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I would have. I would have added that. I would have wanted an Ollie Frazier round, which is.

[Ben]

It's kind of wild, though, also, that we don't get any, like, pickup poops. We don't. You know what I mean? We can't go to the golf course with the cops.

[Craig]

Everybody talks about sports, but there's no sports in the movie Butch's Girlfriend.

[Bill Simmons]

Word for weak link of the film we mentioned earlier. But all the accuracy issues, it feels like Lucas was fabricated. He wasn't nearly like, as sophisticated as they make him in this movie. And it wasn't. Just wasn't like this. Everyone's like, he wasn't like this. And then Richie never had a child. They just made up basically this whole character story with him. Because it's based on a true story.

[Ben]

Yes. This is pretty much right around when people. I. I mean, I think is the.

[Bill Simmons]

Internet people started getting.

[Van Lathan]

You get.

[Ben]

You started getting the Slate article where it's like, all the inaccuracies in this movie and it would start to kind of. It kind of got to you a little bit, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. A federal judge who assisted in the arrest and trial. Lucas Sterling Johnson Jr. He said the film was 1% reality and 99% Hollywood. There's a whole bunch of other stuff about him being the. Him rising above the Mafia and being the mastermind of the golden triangle that he. Frank Lucas's biographer, is like. Like, not true.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Didn't happen. But, hey, I. Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. Like, a lot of people say the cadaver connection never actually even existed. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What stage? The worst. We mentioned fake Ali and fake Frasier. We didn't mention fake Will Chamberlain. I mean, Ridley Scott just gave. Couldn't give a. If these guys left even 10%. Like, three of the most famous athletes of the 70s. Oh, my God. Over three. Like, just go and get, like, Greg Oden to be Wilt Chamberlain.

[Craig]

They did that in the movie Rebound. Remember, they had Will Chamberlain in the movie. He was played by Kevin Garnett. They're like, oh, okay, it's Kevin Garnett right in rebound. Like they planned at the Rucker. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Joe Mooney's mustache in this movie. I don't know what the fuck is going on.

[Craig]

They were trying to make him a dandy. He was a dandy. Joe Morton.

[Bill Simmons]

Joe Morton, yeah. Why'd I call him Joe Mooney? Who's Joe Mooney?

[Ben]

I Don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Joe Morton, our guy from Terminator 2.

[Ben]

Paul Mooney?

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, it was a Paul Mooney. But, you know, everybody knows Joe Morton.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Y. Yeah. And it's always nice to see him in movies.

[Ben]

And I think he's like. Like, that's a real character. He was like a gambler.

[Bill Simmons]

That under the mustache, just like. I would have gone back to the. You. You have this intricate early 70s Harlem set designs. You're getting every detail right. You're like, hey, just throw that mustache.

[Craig]

We got to find out, because I don't know the guy he's portraying. Maybe Charlie Williams. Charlie was. It was his name.

[Ben]

I think it's Charlie Williams.

[Craig]

Maybe Charlie Williams really had that mustache.

[Ben]

Yeah, I think he was probably like.

[Bill Simmons]

Van, you're not going to like my next. What stage? The worst.

[Craig]

Let's hear it.

[Bill Simmons]

Arman Asante is a mafia boss. He's fucking French. What are we doing?

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

So many Italian actors. Fuck you. How about that Ridley Scott, you dick. All right, remember, you know when people get bent out of shape when somebody doesn't play a character?

[Ben]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

This is more offensive than anything. It's a fucking French guy.

[Craig]

So you.

[Bill Simmons]

The Italians hate the French.

[Craig]

You've never seen Gotti? HBO original movie. Gotti.

[Bill Simmons]

He's French.

[Craig]

He's fucking awesome in that.

[Ben]

What are you in HBO movies now?

[Craig]

Oh, my God. The HBO original movie, man. I want to do a whole rewatchable situation of just HBO movies. I love them. Gotti is when. I forgot when I made my list.

[Ben]

But he was watching the other time, like a couple weeks ago. Oh, the one about too big to fail.

[Craig]

Too big to fail, yeah. Barbarians at the Gate and the blant played on Rebound, Rat Pack, all of that. He played Gotti in one of the movies, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

I just looked this up, and it says he's. He's of Italian and Irish descent, so he's you.

[Craig]

Bill hates himself.

[Bill Simmons]

My bad. I thought he was French. I wanted to make sure.

[Ben]

I do.

[Bill Simmons]

I could have Googled that before.

[Ben]

I do, like, the. Basically, like, what about your fellow dairy farmers scene? That conversation between the two of them. Yeah, and it's just like, about price fixing and stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a better idea for that. Okay, that actor. When we get to a later category.

[Ben]

What do you think of the central romance of this film? Of Frank's relationship?

[Craig]

It's all right, Craig, you want to go ahead and get to it now? We watched part of this movie in the Spotify screening room yesterday, and Craig had some because, you know, Some thoughts on Frank's wife. On Frank's wife.

[Van Lathan]

I thought she was a great actress. Lovely woman.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Seems like a great hang.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ben]

Do you think it was a good character and a thoughtful, deep, human relationship?

[Van Lathan]

You know what I didn't really get? What I wanted that we didn't get is we didn't really get the crash out. You know, like the Ray Liotto with.

[Ben]

I'm blanking with Lorraine Bracco. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like, there's no, like, flush the coke down the toilet scene with. With Frank.

[Ben]

There's no currency.

[Van Lathan]

That was all the money down with.

[Ben]

With her.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

But I gotta say, we watched that movie in the Spotify theater with like seven people. Every single one of them was like, she's got it.

[Craig]

Yeah, she's got it. And we haven't. We looked up her IMDb Craig doesn't want to cop to what it was that he said yesterday. That's cool. Craig.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig didn't look it up.

[Craig]

What did I say?

[Bill Simmons]

Craig didn't look it up. Bangkok. Craig.

[Craig]

Bang. Craig looked it up.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Hard. Should have been a hard hor. Hard shot. Hor.

[Bill Simmons]

I have another. What stage? The worst. I don't think this movie had the right title.

[Craig]

Title.

[Ben]

Which one do you like?

[Bill Simmons]

So they called it True Blue, which I don't like either. Why is this movie called Blue Magic? The whole movie is about Blue Magic. Great name for a title.

[Van Lathan]

It doesn't sound like a gangster movie.

[Craig]

Doesn't sound like a gangster movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Blue Magic.

[Craig]

Not really. Doesn't sound like a gangster movie.

[Bill Simmons]

American Gangster feels like AI Just like.

[Ben]

I think it's just kind of like with Ridley. It's like, what is this movie about? It's about gladiators. Then we'll call it Gladiator. Is it a movie about American gangsters? Then let's call it American Gangster.

[Craig]

Movie. About comics, man.

[Ben]

Match is. Is Matt Damon on Mars. It's called the Martian.

[Craig]

Martian. Yeah. So.

[Bill Simmons]

So this is a Ridley Scott thing. The duelist or two guys dueling.

[Craig]

Dual guys dueling.

[Bill Simmons]

He does Dumb and Louise.

[Ben]

What's Alien? He doesn't. He doesn't hide the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think they bring really like 12 titles like it. Just call it Alien. Yeah.

[Ben]

It's not like Bonapart. It's not Waterloo. It's Napoleon. Blade Runner is also not, you know, like, that's also of William, you know, like Philip K. Dick. Like, it's in there.

[Bill Simmons]

You know any other. What's aged the worst for you guys?

[Craig]

So, you know, there's a Couple of things. Obviously, they come in with a no knock warrant that aged the worst. But there's a scene. I was just saying. That's obvious. That's a terrible thing. But there's a scene in the movie that's not great. There's a scene in the movie, you know, at the end where there. They're executing the search on the plane and Richie Roberts wants to go through and look at all the coffins, and they don't want him to.

[Ben]

And they get Roger Bart, the U.S. attorney.

[Craig]

U.S. attorney comes in and they have to make sure that they make the U.S. attorney the bad guy in this scene.

[Ben]

The most fucking racist guy.

[Craig]

The most racist guy you can. So he goes for a double that you don't ever really see. He drops an in K. A K word. And in K, you can't do that. Like, he drops even me. Like, I was like, oh, like that. That's a little saucy right there. Like, he comes in.

[Ben]

It's also saucy because Roger Bart is a wonderful actor and Broadway stage guy, but, like, his job in American Gangster is to be the most racist person in New York city in the 1970s. That's incredibly difficult, right?

[Bill Simmons]

His racist PR was like Jokic in the 23 playoffs.

[Ben]

They don't even really explain who he is. He's just like, stop what you're doing. N and K. Right?

[Craig]

And he's. He goes. I'm like, okay. Well, you know, then he goes. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Chill, man. What's wrong?

[Bill Simmons]

The Ruffalo, Hannah Rubenick Partridge overacting words. Sadly, I think I have to give this to our girl Carla. You go into the same hell as the crooked cops. You can't stand.

[Ben]

Oh, my God. This is Denzel. It's Denzel Washington tried to kill my wife.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's Denzel.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't. I. I wasn't going to give anything, anything like this to Denzel.

[Craig]

Like, Denzel.

[Bill Simmons]

You guys are all going to hell.

[Craig]

Denzel is going so hard in this movie at. At certain times, he is getting it all out in this film. Slapping people around, knocking over.

[Bill Simmons]

Gave this to Denzel.

[Ben]

I mean, we're also going to probably give him the movie. So it's okay?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, that's fine. Ben, you have a flex. So you already did it?

[Craig]

I already did it. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, let's do the CR Thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest take. What do you guys see here?

[Ben]

Josh Brolin has had the best post American Gangster career of anyone in American Gangster.

[Craig]

That's true.

[Ben]

Oh, Denzel Washington's highlights after this are Unstoppable Flight, Tragedy of Macbeth and Gladiator 2. I'm not saying he doesn't have good movies other than those. I'm just saying, like, those generally are like. People are like, damn, that was really a great Denzel performance, Crow. It's almost negligible. It's this body of lies and the nice guys. Josh Brolin did W. Milk, True Grit, Inherent Vice, Saario. Hail Caesar, Dune 1 and 2, and is in Weapons. Like. He clearly just catapults out of this movie and is. I think just got better material. Obviously he's doing different kinds of roles, is doing supporting roles, but it's kind of. Kind of wild.

[Craig]

He also was. He was also good. It's. Yeah, perfect. He also was still ascending.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So he could be a little bit more like.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have?

[Craig]

Ridley Scott ruined what could have been a classic. Overwhelmingly classic.

[Bill Simmons]

This ties into my take. I think you're right. I think he might have been the wrong director.

[Craig]

I think some of the other directors that were thrown around for this movie would have made this into. Not a great rewatchable movie that we love. Cause this movie serves you so well when you're watching it at home because there's so much in it. But I think the story, the Godfather esque crime, epic, like timeless story. I think it's in there. But I don't think Ridley Scott was the right guy.

[Ben]

Who do you think was of the directors that were up for it?

[Craig]

I'm interested in Fuqua's version. But if you're looking at like maybe even Fincher, maybe Fincher takes this movie too seriously. But he takes it so seriously that you get somebody who focuses on one of the ideas that could have made it.

[Ben]

I would do Fincher for the Bangkok Golden Triangle story.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

I would do De Palma for the New York City crime story.

[Craig]

You feel like the Palma had lost it by this point, though?

[Ben]

Well, I don't know. I mean, I. Carlito's is why I still work at the Ringer is to do Carlito's Way one day. I'm just.

[Craig]

Jesus.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm just waiting not to work with Bangkok Craig.

[Craig]

No.

[Ben]

It's to do Sean Penn's hair in Carlito's Way.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And then Fuqua.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we lead this into my hottest day, please? This would have been Michael Mann's second greatest movie behind Heat. I just think he crushes this movie. It's all the stuff he likes. It's weird characters and People just coming in and out, all these different locations. And the golden triangle, which he did in season one, Miami Vice. And he never worked with Denzel. He did work with Russell Crowe. A lot of the people that were in his movies anyway, are in this movie.

[Ben]

Some of the ideas in the film are ideas that really interest him.

[Craig]

Go backwards.

[Bill Simmons]

He loves going backwards. Backwards. The Ali Frazier fight, he absolutely would have filmed at least a round of that, for sure. I just think he would have crushed this movie.

[Craig]

What's Michael Mann's best period piece?

[Bill Simmons]

Or Last of the Mexicans?

[Craig]

I think Mohicans is fantastic. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Public Enemies. Sierra and I.

[Craig]

You guys. You guys are in on Public Enemies.

[Bill Simmons]

There's been some text.

[Ben]

Yeah, we've. There's been some revival. We're interested in a revival.

[Bill Simmons]

When was the last time you watched it?

[Craig]

It. When I saw it in the theaters.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's. It's on this. It'll be in the four hundreds somewhere.

[Craig]

Yeah, it. It does feel like Last of Mohegan is the obvious answer, now that I think about it. But that feels like even different Michael, man. But he. That's a amazing movie.

[Ben]

Perfect movie.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Stay alive. I will find you Casting what ifs. We did most of them, but this one kind of broke my brain. Somebody turned down the world of Trupo before Bron.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

James Gandolfini.

[Craig]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's tough. I love Brolin in this movie.

[Ben]

Yeah, man.

[Craig]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Gandolfini is Trupo. It's pretty good.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's pretty awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

It's pretty good. It's right after Soprano. And I just think he didn't want to play another bad guy, probably.

[Ben]

But, man, there was some around the time of the sort of first iteration of this movie conversation about Ray Liott as Richie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I have him in another spot. Brad Pitt lingered in this for a second. There was a. Eddie Murphy was involved at one point as maybe somebody. But no Best that guy award. Can we graduate John Ortiz to.

[Ben]

To the John Ortiz Award?

[Bill Simmons]

No, just John Ortiz anymore.

[Ben]

I'm fine with that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Okay.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So who do you have as that guy?

[Ben]

Roger Guere Smith is not Nate the Bangkok Nate. Roger Bart as the racist U.S. attorney or John Polito as Rossi.

[Bill Simmons]

Although, John, I'd like to throw in Katie Strickland, too, because I'm not positive people know who she is.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Guinevere Smith is one of the most underrated, amazing actors.

[Ben]

Great.

[Bill Simmons]

And so Dan Winters. Yeah, he's multiple Spike movies. I always like seeing him.

[Craig]

He's so cool. In that scene where he's getting the massage that I want to get.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, they could have remade the Warriors.

[Craig]

That looked like a good scene. I don't know what that. That was a. That was nice.

[Bill Simmons]

They could have remade the warriors early 2000s just to have him play Cyrus. Thought I was going to get more variety. I want a little massage still.

[Craig]

It was. Oh, for the. My. That guy is like just his whole crew. His whole crew of cops. Those are different.

[Ben]

Oh. John Hawks, Abruzzo.

[Craig]

Not rza.

[Ben]

Yeah. Yule Vasquez and rza. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

DM Waiters Award. It's a long list that John Ortiz, Idris elba, Cuba Gooding Jr. Richie Coster, Katie Strickland, racist DA or Nate the troops connection.

[Ben]

Can I also throw in Rick Young as k. The.

[Bill Simmons]

The General?

[Craig]

Yep. Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the answer?

[Ben]

It's Cuba Gooding Jr.

[Bill Simmons]

It is.

[Craig]

It's Cuba and Junie. It's got two scenes. First scene, he just seemed a little great. He is. He is.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like he can't believe he's not winning this. Yeah, he is.

[Craig]

It's got to be like. That might be the defining portrayal of Nicky Barnes who's like, who's Cuba's in.

[Bill Simmons]

His own movie, but in a good way. And we just could have easily just made another.

[Ben]

Very curious about that movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Recasting Couch Director City. I'll offer you Ray Lyatta, Ray Liotta as over the Armand Dante character.

[Ben]

Raota as the Mafia.

[Bill Simmons]

As the mafia boss.

[Ben]

I would rather have Rata cop land. Raota as Troopo or Richie. Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I offer you Eva Mendes as Frank's wife?

[Ben]

You may.

[Craig]

Ooh. You definitely can for sure.

[Ben]

Thank you, Jerry Jones. Yeah, I will take that deal.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, you have flex category.

[Craig]

Agree.

[Van Lathan]

I always hate it when you guys kind of already get to mine. Unfortunately, I did have Arman Asante as the Judd Nelson.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah. In his.

[Van Lathan]

I don't care if he's Italian. I don't care if he's like Lucky Luciano's son in real life. He was. He's like a human canoli in this movie.

[Ben]

This.

[Van Lathan]

He was way over the top.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought he sucked too. I. I didn't think he was good in this.

[Van Lathan]

The only other thing I had was the Katie Strickland was killing it, but kind of the George Ellerby two weeks with pay award character who should have def been fired as Richie's divorce attorney. I mean, she doesn't say a word in court. She gets dressed down by Carla Gugino. She has sexual client and he does not have any shot of winning custody. Kind of just all time bad divorces.

[Bill Simmons]

And finds out that he's has sex.

[Ben]

With strippers and she's more turned on by him.

[Craig]

Yeah, Richie is really putting in work, man. That's what. That's one thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

He's a stick man.

[Bill Simmons]

Half asserting research. They had to pay back $3 million. Brian Grazer and Ridley Scott because they ran so far over budget. Barely happens. The BET TV series American Gangster with Ving Rhames.

[Craig]

A lawsuit or something. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

It existed before this movie. Russell Crowe gave RZA mint condition 1961 Gretch guitar.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because he really liked them.

[Craig]

They've been friends since they hang out.

[Bill Simmons]

So Frank Lucas's driver in real life, Melvin Combs, father of Puff. Puffy Combs.

[Ben]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Shot to death at age 33 when Puffy was 2 years old. And then the location stuff was really hard. Trying to find parts of New York that they could turn into. They basically went into the 110s in that range.

[Ben]

I would wonder, I'd be really curious to know whether they could shoot this today in Harlem and have it not cost a billion dollars. Because it's like.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they're cgi.

[Ben]

Well, it's just. It's so interesting because like when you read about like Tarantino making Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and him like how he was able to set dress Hollywood Boulevard or Sunset Boulevard or something and still would be like, this frame is still what it would have looked like in the late 60s, you know, and New York. I feel like in 2007 or whatever when they made this, you could still get some 1970s New York in like in shots. But now I wonder whether or not there's just too many corporate joybirds. Yeah, yeah. You know, like.

[Van Lathan]

Or whatever.

[Craig]

Did you.

[Van Lathan]

Wait, you said Frank Lucas is driver, is Diddy's father.

[Ben]

In real life. In real life, yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Did you come across the bit that Coppola Repair reportedly considered making a Frank Lucas or Frank Lucas type character a big part of Godfather 3?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's pretty fascinating somewhere in my weirdness.

[Craig]

In an actual national mobile?

[Ben]

No, I think it was like, I think as they were like, what would we make Godfather Part three about? International mobile.

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mountain? Denzel.

[Craig]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Russell Crow? No. Disjointed gangster movies? I'm gonna say yes.

[Craig]

Dope.

[Bill Simmons]

Big, sprawling.

[Ben]

What's it up against?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. It's not that many of these, like.

[Ben]

Once upon it so high up the apex.

[Bill Simmons]

Once Upon a time. Everything else. Once upon a time in America.

[Ben]

Yeah, sure.

[Bill Simmons]

That movie. But are you.

[Ben]

Are you five years, like, considering.

[Bill Simmons]

I.

[Ben]

Don'T know, like Triple nine. Like. Or like how, how. How low down are we going for Disjointed gangster?

[Bill Simmons]

Here's my answer.

[Van Lathan]

Is a Bronx Tail a disjointed gangster movie?

[Craig]

Carlito's Way. Not disjointed Caro's Way.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't put a lot of thought into that one. That's okay. Ridley Scott. No, no. John Ortiz.

[Ben]

One of my favorite performances by him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's like he's just coming off Miami Vice. Hawks not yet coming.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Harlem movies.

[Craig]

Not to me.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have?

[Craig]

So, I mean, Harlem Nights. Harlem Nights.

[Bill Simmons]

One of my Harlem Nights is not a great movie. It's just. It's got great people in it.

[Craig]

Just be careful.

[Ben]

You're coming off a little bit like a U.S. attorney. Right?

[Craig]

Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, like Eddie Murphy never directed again after.

[Craig]

So, I mean, the reality is that you're the inroads that you've made after the Sinner's Pod. Like, we can't even really talk about like. Like what you did, but you could give it all back right now. You don't want to do that, right?

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't say it was an entertaining movie. I wouldn't say it's like a. It's not a better made movie than this.

[Craig]

My favorite movie of all time takes place in Harlem. That's Mo Better Blues. And so I would say that Mo Better Blues is better than American Gangster.

[Bill Simmons]

The golden triangle in a movie or TV show. The answer is the two part episode of Miami Vice with Edward James almost being reunited with his wife. One of my favorite. Do you remember that? Of course I did.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

They're at an outdoor bar. Tubbs in Castillo, played by Edward James Olmos. And he talks to Ty and the waiter and Tubbs goes, captain, I didn't know you spoke. Ty Castillo's like the least fun friendly guy ever.

[Craig]

Yeah, you've given me all of the.

[Bill Simmons]

Sinners his goodwill back with golden triangle.

[Craig]

Yeah, with that, that. Oh, you. Was that Tub? Did you do Tubs or Crocs? You just did Tubs.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I did Tubs.

[Craig]

So you're back at zero.

[Bill Simmons]

That's how Tubs talk. He's got a lot of energy.

[Craig]

Is it?

[Bill Simmons]

Watch the scene. I bet I nailed it.

[Craig]

Okay, I will.

[Bill Simmons]

Captain, I didn't know you spoke Thai, man.

[Craig]

You did it again. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Watch it. The social media clip. I nailed it. Josh Berlin.

[Craig]

Oh, no, no, way.

[Ben]

Although 2007 is 2007, perhaps his apex mountain year. He's no country in this.

[Bill Simmons]

The lady who played Denzel's wife. I'm gonna say yes.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. That's definitely hers.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

You think this is. No, it's not.

[Bill Simmons]

Horrible impersonations of Ali Fraser and Will Chamberlain.

[Ben]

Yeah. 1960s and 70s athletes being terribly portrayed.

[Craig]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruiser hanging.

[Craig]

Oh, no. I got. And I got. I got another Apex mind. I gotta ask you guys.

[Bill Simmons]

What is it?

[Craig]

Dope Kingpin biopics. When I looked at it, it's not as many as you think. Yeah, it's really like, blow, right.

[Bill Simmons]

Tony Montana that he wasn't real.

[Craig]

Oh, so, like, blow paid in full. And then this are the three that stand out. I. I looked around for other ones, like, actually, like, drug kingpin biopics.

[Ben]

So much of it is TV now.

[Craig]

So, yeah, the guy.

[Bill Simmons]

That would have been a good hottest take. We needed more drug kingp pins to make biopics of.

[Craig]

There were so many of them too late. And, like, a lot of the guys, they show up in this movie, and we've talked about them. We've talked about Nicky Barnes. We've talked about all of these other people. They pop up in different things, but they're. They're kind of hard to make. They all end up the same way. The guy goes to jail. Like, they all end up in.

[Ben]

They got him eventually. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Captain, I didn't know you spoke tie.

[Craig]

There you go.

[Bill Simmons]

So you wanted.

[Craig]

Man, There you go right there.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that sanitized enough?

[Craig]

Hey, Captain, I didn't know you spoke Thai.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you speak Thai? Cruiser Hanks.

[Ben]

I have Cruise as Richie.

[Bill Simmons]

Really?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought this was such an obvious Hanks part.

[Ben]

I think Cruz would be like, I am trying to get through night school, and he would go to night school in real life to try, you know, like. And I could see him being like, I'm a fake, nervous about public speaking, and then at the end, gives, like, his great summation. I wish we had a little bit more in court stuff with Richie. It was pretty cool.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I don't see. I don't see Cruz as a 1971 New York detective. I don't know. I just would feel like it was Tom Cruise the whole time. Yeah, like he was playing house. Woody, you're the tiebreaker. Van.

[Craig]

I had Cruz as Frank. I want to see it. I want to see Cruz.

[Ben]

That's alpaca.

[Craig]

I want to see Cruz. I want to see. I want to see Cruz play Frank. And I don't want to. I don't want to. I just want him to make the movie and not even address it.

[Bill Simmons]

Like.

[Craig]

And the thing, you know that. Frank Lewis. Whatever.

[Van Lathan]

So who's winning here? Hanks.

[Craig]

It's.

[Van Lathan]

It's Hanks as Richie we're talking about.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you pick Hanks?

[Craig]

No, Hanks is Richie. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Ben]

Okay. Yeah. So Hanks.

[Bill Simmons]

I have Hanks as rich as well. Scorsese or Spielberg?

[Craig]

Scorsese. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? Trupo, I think.

[Ben]

Trupo.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Although you know what Philip Seymour Hoffman is, Richie is an interesting.

[Craig]

That's actually really interesting.

[Ben]

Pretty interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

The stickman part would have been tough, kind of.

[Ben]

I would have. I would have paid to see it, you know, Philip Seymour Hoffman having sex like a cop. I would have paid to see it.

[Craig]

He got down and was it when the devil knows you're dead?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, he got down all right.

[Craig]

He was getting busy. Marisa to another one.

[Bill Simmons]

Jesus.

[Craig]

Hall of fame.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. Picking nits. Frank has this golden triangle connected connection.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

How does he have any competition in Harlem?

[Ben]

What do you mean?

[Bill Simmons]

He's just got by far the best stuff. He's like. He's like in the NBA with a 900 million dollar salary cap and everyone else has a 40 million cap.

[Ben]

How does he have anybody coming at us?

[Bill Simmons]

Be blowing everyone away? He's getting all this crazy drugs. That's the best drugs that he's.

[Ben]

Yeah, but that is what happened. But every.

[Bill Simmons]

But you know, he shouldn't have any competition.

[Ben]

But the competition isn't necessarily in the product. The competition is in the territory.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's what I mean. He should have all the territory territories.

[Van Lathan]

Well, he's selling to the people who would crushing this.

[Craig]

He doesn't have to go to war.

[Bill Simmons]

He should be like Vince McMahon.

[Craig]

He started wholesaling now.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah. But that's when the Mafia comes in because he goes, I have 110th to like whatever, 150th river to river.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

I run Harlem. And then they're like, but we can go to Detroit.

[Bill Simmons]

Gone national. It would have been like. Like Vince McMahon in 1982.

[Craig]

That's legitimately what Armand Asante's character said. He said, let's start going to California. He didn't want to do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Should have happened in five seconds. Seconds.

[Craig]

This is what you would have done if you were Frank.

[Bill Simmons]

I would have done the Vince McMahon. Let's go national. Cable's coming. No repercussions at all for. For Frank shooting Tango in the middle of the street.

[Ben]

Harlem had his back.

[Craig]

Yeah, he, he did right by Harlem, so Harlem was going to do right by him.

[Bill Simmons]

Woody Allen and Diane Keaton, not only were they not dating in 1971, nobody who the she was. We mentioned that earlier. I have one more. But what do you have for picking.

[Ben]

This kind of goes along with what you're saying is I, I could stand a couple of more. What year is it up on screen or what time of year is it?

[Bill Simmons]

I have no idea what year.

[Ben]

And so sometimes you're like, is this two weeks later or is this seven years later? You know, that the, the time stuff gets a little bit murky in this.

[Craig]

My nit is like, mama, you know I'm selling dope.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, yeah, mom knows.

[Craig]

Mama, you know I'm selling dope.

[Ben]

Great scene, great scene. Disconnected from the reality of the, you.

[Craig]

Know, you, you know I'm selling dope. You know what's going on.

[Ben]

But it is cool. And she's. Everybody knows you don't shoot cops.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. My last one is a big one. So we do these based on a true story things, which basically means this was a guy who existed. Now we're just going to make up shit. And then they go to another level in the closing credits where they're like, Frank served 75 years. It's like, no, he didn't. None of this happened. I just think they should have done. Frank went to prison and became a centaur. Richie Roberts left the force and coached the Lakers to five NBA titles. Like, just go nuts. Tripo came back to life and became a vampire.

[Ben]

Yeah. Richie Roberts and Princess Dyer living in the Cayman Islands under assumed identities, just go nuts.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You've already made up everything. Have fun with it. Sequel, prequel, Prestige tv, all by caster, Untouchable.

[Ben]

Should we switch this to prestige based on van suggestion? All white cast.

[Craig]

All white. White cast.

[Bill Simmons]

That's new category. All white cast.

[Craig]

White cast.

[Ben]

Ruffalo. You know Adam Scott.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Adam Scott is Nicky Barnes.

[Craig]

Adam Scott is Nicky Barnes. Works. That works.

[Bill Simmons]

Rob McElhenny as so Cruz.

[Craig]

Cruz as Frank. Trying to think who plays. Who plays Frank's mom, Sally Field.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you realize how funny it would be if in. In the current America we're in, if somebody's like, I'm just doing an all white American gangster.

[Craig]

J.D.

[Ben]

Vance was like, this is great.

[Bill Simmons]

J.D. vance. Like, I'm invested in this.

[Craig]

I'm telling you, I love this.

[Ben]

God.

[Craig]

God. The essence of America.

[Ben]

This is so cool.

[Craig]

Yeah. The story, what we wanted to do is we wanted to take the story and just tweak it a little bit, make it more American.

[Bill Simmons]

And introducing JJ Redick. I'm just going all white dudes. White people, bro.

[Ben]

JJ could play Stevie the Athlete.

[Craig]

Yeah, JJ could play Stevie the athlete. And you change it to basketball.

[Ben]

Sure.

[Craig]

Is this movie better with the Knicks?

[Bill Simmons]

Is this movie better with Wayne Jacobs? Danny Trejo, Mad Dog Russo? I added him. Doris Burke just tragically got pulled off off the A team. Sam Jackson.

[Craig]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Byron Mayo? Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth? Daniel Planet Vu Long Legs, Bangkok. Craig or Wilford Brimley in the. What is it?

[Ben]

We gotta do one more for DB.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben]

We see you, Mr. Lucas, taking the lessons of your mentor, Bumpy Johnson, as you take the ball straight into the heart of Chiang Kai Shek's defeated army and buy opium straight from the manufacturer. Long before there was Magic Johnson, there was Blue magic. And you, Mr. Lucas, are the wizard. Au revoir, TV. I actually. I feel bad.

[Craig]

Yeah, I like her.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you should have said something in. In Vietnamese at the end there. Just want to ask her who gets it.

[Ben]

I'm going to. This is not the answer you want. It's either Harris the vids for. For cinematography or Arthur Max design. But it. I think they did get art direction. Right. Or they got nominated.

[Bill Simmons]

I would say art direction. Just because that got nominated. Probably. Unanswerable questions. How is Mark Ruffalo not in this movie? What was he doing? How's he not in this?

[Ben]

Well, he's in our all white version.

[Bill Simmons]

But he should have been in there. We could. There was 19 parts he could have played for two scenes.

[Ben]

What year's.

[Bill Simmons]

What year?

[Ben]

Collateral. Oh, so he could have just gone.

[Bill Simmons]

Right, right in the zone because of tax. I do.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But like, he could have been nine parts in this. Was this the Denzel performance that created the Jay Pharaoh impersonation where he just.

[Craig]

Goes over the top as Denzel?

[Ben]

Right.

[Craig]

This is the beginning of My Man. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

[Bill Simmons]

Was this the movie or was it like Training Day plus this, Like, I want to.

[Craig]

I feel like this is the beginning.

[Bill Simmons]

Of the Denzel as a character.

[Craig]

Denzel is a character. Like I said before.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you have any other unanswerables?

[Ben]

How long would this movie have to be for it to be too long?

[Bill Simmons]

I. I mean, I could have got another hour.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Like, if I was like a three night special event. Six hours of American Gangster, including, like an hour in Vietnam and Bangkok. An hour of Rivera's fall from being a cop to a junkie to jumping out of an ambulance, like, a good 45 minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Way better for Prestige.

[Ben]

Lucas trying to make the Yankees.

[Craig]

He failed. That. That. That right there would be a fucking awesome subplot to investigate.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

That character, like, trying to be, like, his uncle blowing it with the Yankees, Billy Martin, all of that stuff. But, like, even Frank's fall, it happens pretty abruptly.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I would have wanted to, like, dive into it more. My unanswerable question.

[Ben]

What's Trupo's home life like?

[Craig]

Yeah, what. What happens to Trupo's. So, one note.

[Ben]

He has a housekeeper.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

What golf club are they members of?

[Ben]

Yeah, exactly.

[Craig]

Where are they going? What are they doing? Did Frank's wife set him up?

[Ben]

No.

[Craig]

Oh, she might have. She made him wear the jacket. I've always thought this. I don't trust her anyway. Move on.

[Ben]

I don't know. I'm not defending her. Like.

[Craig]

Like, I don't trust her.

[Ben]

Okay.

[Craig]

She made him wear the jacket. He goes there. He's wearing the thing. I think another thing that I would like to. I think they got to her. I think the government got to her.

[Bill Simmons]

That's pretty interesting because there's a couple scenes that are kind of missing. Like, there's that one scene he goes to the bathroom and he's wearing, like, the fake beard that he takes off.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But we don't know why he has a fake beard.

[Ben]

On.

[Bill Simmons]

On.

[Ben]

I think he's going to look at Tango's, like, operation.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like there's. There's some choppiness that maybe there was, like, a scene where they think Richie got to her.

[Craig]

Richie got to the. Richie the stick man.

[Bill Simmons]

What piece of memorabil.

[Ben]

Oh, I have one more unanswerable question related to the sports stuff, but could you go from, like, the street to the Yankees in 1974? Like, or was he on Keith Law's top 100?

[Bill Simmons]

You could do it in the NBA back then.

[Ben]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, the NBA guys would show up. Nobody even knew where they went to college.

[Ben]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Baseball, I don't know, but because they had the minors, and it was pretty hard for somebody to just show up.

[Ben]

And make the major meeting with Billy Martin. Yeah.

[Craig]

So a drug dealer is going to.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Frank Lucas would have arranged that, though.

[Craig]

Yeah, but, like, that's. That's what I'm saying.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So a reputed drug dealer is going to call the New York Yankees organization and say, hey, I want to try out for my nephew. And then they're going to go like, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because they don't want to die or they'll.

[Ben]

He'll give them a million dollars and.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, or maybe maybe some piece of memorabilia you'd want or not want from this movie. I'll offer you the piano game. Used heads slammed into the piano. Piano. Frank's suitcase was cool. That old school big brown suitcase. Frank's entire outfit from the Ali fight.

[Craig]

The jacket. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What else do you have?

[Ben]

Trupo's leather duster. Very cool. Troopo's car. We, you know, we kind of used usually.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cars don't do cars.

[Craig]

What if I did the jacket? The outfit. That's the most iconic piece of memory.

[Bill Simmons]

At least the hat. Yeah, if you had the hat. I think that's a move. Coach Finstock. Or for best life lesson, quitting while you're ahead is not the same as Same one.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Best double feature choice.

[Ben]

Virtual French Connection.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you're going drug and drug.

[Ben]

It's the prequel. French Connection is. Is. Is they. They get the. The Marseille drugs off the streets, but then they go pumped it back.

[Bill Simmons]

You wouldn't do virtuosity so we can get crow and Denzel 12 years apart.

[Ben]

I would do the fre Connection.

[Bill Simmons]

Not a virtuosity guy. Sierra.

[Ben]

I like virtuosity. We haven't done the French Connection on this pod either.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that. What's the movie where they give Denzel vd? Is that John L. No, that is Ricochet.

[Craig]

That is.

[Bill Simmons]

That movie is crazy.

[Craig]

That's an insane movie.

[Ben]

That's like I can't believe this was in theaters and I saw it.

[Craig]

This guy. I got to revisit the lady.

[Bill Simmons]

That's got to be an to be.

[Craig]

That's a crazy movie.

[Bill Simmons]

That's.

[Craig]

That's to me is a huge rewatch. Watchable.

[Bill Simmons]

Huge.

[Craig]

So much ridiculous happens to him. John Lithgow gets. He's minded that movie armor and fights the Aran.

[Ben]

Honestly, it's one of those movies that made me like suspicious of John Lithgow as a person for. For a swell long time after that.

[Bill Simmons]

I agree with that.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

For who won the movie?

[Craig]

I have Blow as best double feature choice, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Blow.

[Craig]

Yeah, Blow.

[Bill Simmons]

Who won the movie?

[Ben]

That's all one.

[Craig]

Denzel washed it.

[Bill Simmons]

I wanted to say Crow, but it's Denzel. Who do you have? Craig.

[Craig]

It's Denzel, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, what was your take?

[Van Lathan]

Never seen it. Really enjoyed it. Yeah, I didn't have a problem with the length at all. It's. I mean it's so ambitious and it's so jam packed, but man, it's moving. Like, there's so much going on. I think it's really smooth, really well paced. I think it's probably like. I think the reason why it doesn't get to that next level, like, it's a perfect rewatchables. It's like a pro bowler, but not an all pro. I just think the character arcs don't officially get there.

[Ben]

Very well put, you know, Pro Bowler, not at all pro.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Because the. Just the characters, you don't. You don't really feel for anybody too, too much in this movie. I would say Richie or Frank. You don't quite get there all the way. But I thought this was great. Super fun. This is a movie you can jump in at any time. It's almost like you don't even know where the movie starts or ends.

[Ben]

Yeah. That was my more recent relationship with it really is typing in American gangster scene in YouTube and then watching it out of Or.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And then you're just like, oh, that was awesome.

[Craig]

And every scene that Denzel is in, he's giving something crazy.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

They're not very many scenes where he's in the scene and he's not making some type of grand point about something.

[Ben]

I mean, it's just. There's a. That first time tango goes up to him in the diner. But the first scene when he's just like, now you owe me 20%, the jars are empty. And before he gets killed, Denzel, like, cleaning his hands from his toast with jam, you're just like this. This whole thing, he has thought he's like, you're going to kill him one day.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Like, you know that now.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know why this movie hasn't persisted, though, in. In the.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, sometimes I feel like it has. Oh, just not like. Like in the Heat.

[Ben]

It was just. I think it was like, did well on the Netflix.

[Bill Simmons]

I think on Netflix it had a.

[Ben]

Resurgence, which is now it's coming off Netflix ironically.

[Bill Simmons]

Coming off.

[Van Lathan]

It's just crazy. I always forget that good fellas made $45 million and this made $230 million.

[Craig]

And I mean, I think things had changed.

[Ben]

Denzel Washington.

[Craig]

Yeah. Denzel was like a gigantic star.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know if culturally, if, like people talk about scenes from this movie moments. It hasn't really lived on in that way compared to a lot of other famous gangster films.

[Ben]

I know. I think I. I feel like I hear the tango scene referenced a lot. You hear like some of the.

[Bill Simmons]

We just started it.

[Ben]

Yeah, we did it.

[Bill Simmons]

We got the ball rolling now. American Gangsters My life lesson is, is.

[Van Lathan]

Shoot the guy the heart.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. So he can see your face as he dies.

[Van Lathan]

You want him to know what you did?

[Ben]

Bill? I didn't know you spoke Tai.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't know you spoke Ty.

[Craig]

I didn't know you spoke T. You. You. You were more like. I didn't know you spoke T. J. Turkey. Get back, Jack. That's kind of how you like.

[Ben]

That's.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just saying you see tubs at.

[Craig]

The mid, like, you know? You know what I mean? So with it.

[Bill Simmons]

YouTube will back me up.

[Ben]

Yeah, I'm sure they will.

[Bill Simmons]

CR Happy 400 great to be back, fan. Great see you. As always. Thanks to Greg and Cahao as well.

[Van Lathan]

And Eduardo.

[Bill Simmons]

And Eduardo. I'm not sure what's happening. Oh, Andronic too.

[Van Lathan]

Got a whole team.

[Bill Simmons]

Whole team for the rewatchables. And you can check us out on The Ringer Moves YouTube channel as well. Great to see you guys.

[Craig]

Olivia loves a challenge. It's why she lifts heavy weights and likes complicated recipes. But for booking her trip to Paris, Olivia chose the easy way with Expedia, she bundled her flight with a hotel to save more. Of course, she still climbed all 674 steps to the top of the Eiffel Tower. You were made to take the easy route. We were made to easily package your trip. Expedia made to travel flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.