‘Body Double’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rewatchables - Episode: ‘Body Double’ with Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey

Introduction

In this episode of 'The Rewatchables', hosted by Bill Simmons from The Ringer Podcast Network, the team delves deep into the 1984 Brian De Palma thriller 'Body Double'. Joined by Chris Ryan and Sean Fennessey, the trio explores the intricacies of the film, dissecting its themes, character dynamics, and enduring legacy.

Overview of 'Body Double'

'Body Double', directed by Brian De Palma, marked his 40th anniversary in the film industry with a celebration of his signature Hitchcockian suspense blended with overt eroticism. The movie intertwines elements of erotic thriller and film noir, presenting a complex narrative centered around voyeurism, deception, and murder.

Brian De Palma’s Directorial Style

Chris Ryan opens the discussion by highlighting De Palma's unique approach to filmmaking, emphasizing his mastery of suspense akin to Alfred Hitchcock but with a modern, more provocative twist. Sean Fennessey notes, "He loves to literally follow women and observe how they move. That's a part of the telling of this story." (04:05)

The hosts debate whether De Palma was influenced by personal struggles, such as his post-‘Scarface’ phase, suggesting that "cocaine was fueling a lot of the creativity from '78 to '86'" (07:25). Chris reflects on De Palma’s uncompromising nature, stating, "He has always been like that. There's a great clip of De Palma on Dick Cavett's show... he's being such a sarcastic little bastard." (06:29)

Casting Choices and Performances

The casting of Craig Wasson as Jake, the protagonist, is a focal point of the discussion. Sean Fennessey praises Wasson, describing him as "Bill Maher crossed with Breck and Meyer" (16:09), while Chris critiques the decision, arguing that a more established actor like Tom Hanks could have enhanced the character’s relatability. The hosts explore alternative casting scenarios, pondering if actors like Linda Hamilton or Kathleen Turner could have brought different dimensions to the role.

The portrayal of Gloria Ravel, played by Deborah Shelton with voice dubbed by Helen Shaver, is scrutinized. Sean notes Shelton’s limited screen time, "She is only in like, 18 minutes of this movie," highlighting the character's enigmatic presence (19:51).

Key Scenes and Cinematic Techniques

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around specific scenes that make 'Body Double' a rewatchable classic:

• The Opening Audition Scene: Chris mentions, "You have to put in the hours," referencing Jake’s initial foray into acting and how it sets the tone for his character’s flaws (55:56).

• The Farmer’s Market Sequence: Dave praises the cinematography, stating, "It's like a rewind the scene movie. It's so fun." (04:26)

• The Murder with the Drill: The infamous murder scene where Jake’s wife is killed with a drill is dissected in detail. Sean Fennessey describes it as "the floor legitimately on the list of greatest kills in movie history." (47:36), while Chris questions the practicality of the plot device, "Why he has the drill, why he's gonna use the drill?" (47:36).

• Body Double Ending: The ending is lauded for its meta-commentary, where Jake admits to using a body double, accompanied by a graphic gore scene. Sean likens this to Angie Dickinson's shadow scene in 'Dress to Kill', emphasizing its self-referential humor (26:41).

Technical Aspects

The episode highlights Pino Donaggio’s score, with Dave Jacoby commending its "beauty" and its contribution to the film’s tense atmosphere (43:27). The use of cinematic locations in Los Angeles, such as the Chemisphere house, adds a layer of authenticity and serves as a character in itself, bringing LA’s iconic landscape into the narrative (63:16).

Plot and Character Analysis

Jake’s character is examined as a flawed protagonist whose voyeuristic tendencies drive the plot forward. Sean Fennessey interprets De Palma’s message as a critique of obsession, stating, "If we're all creeps, no one is a creep." (45:52), suggesting a broader commentary on human desire and the illusion of control.

The dynamics between Jake, his wife Gloria, and the mysterious Sam (the Indian killer) are dissected, with Chris Vernon questioning the logic and feasibility of Sam’s elaborate murder plan, highlighting numerous plot holes (91:05). The hosts debate whether Jake’s detective-like deductions are believable given his overall ineptitude.

Legacy and Influence

Sean Fennessey posits that 'Body Double' has influenced a generation of filmmakers, including David Fincher, Steven Soderbergh, and Quentin Tarantino, who have drawn inspiration from De Palma’s blend of genre elements (33:11). The film's enduring rewatchability is attributed to its layered storytelling, visual flair, and provocative themes.

Chris Ryan reflects on the film's status in contemporary cinema, suggesting that the independent art necessary for such complex narratives is hindered by modern industry dynamics dominated by tech companies and blockbuster-oriented filmmaking (08:37).

Critical Reception and Awards

While 'Body Double' was considered a commercial failure upon release, its later appreciation as a cult classic is discussed. The hosts humorously engage in award categories for various elements of the film, such as Melanie Griffith winning Best Actress for her role as Holly Body (78:44).

Sean Fennessey shares his views on how the film has aged, acknowledging that while some aspects like Sam’s conspiracy plan seem implausible, the film remains a cinematic masterpiece for its time (56:59).

Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with the hosts expressing their continued admiration for 'Body Double', despite its initial reception. They reflect on the rumors and myths surrounding the film's production, such as De Palma’s interaction with actresses and the use of body doubles, adding a layer of behind-the-scenes intrigue to their analysis.

Bill Simmons wraps up the discussion by encouraging listeners to revisit 'Body Double' on The Rewatchables' dedicated page, emphasizing its status as a timeless thriller that continues to captivate audiences with its blend of suspense, erotica, and cinematic craftsmanship.

Notable Quotes

• Sean Fennessey: "He loves to literally follow women and observe how they move. That's a part of the telling of this story." (04:05)

• Chris Vernon: "The Wikipedia description should have been... an emasculated, cucked, claustrophobic, stalking, peeping tom wannabe adult film producer..." (08:20)

• Dave Jacoby: "It's so fun." (04:26)

• Sean Fennessey: "If we're all creeps, no one is a creep." (45:52)

• Chris Vernon: "You're really enjoying. You're flipping it on the viewer, right?" (45:50)

Conclusion

This episode of 'The Rewatchables' offers an exhaustive exploration of 'Body Double', blending critical analysis with personal anecdotes and humorous critiques. Through their detailed discussion, Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey reaffirm the film’s place as a cult classic worth multiple viewings, celebrating its complex narrative and enduring influence on the thriller genre.

Transcript

[Chris Vernon]

What's up, everybody? Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the Mismatch.

[Dave Jacoby]

And huge welcome as well to my.

[Chris Vernon]

New co host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week, every Tuesday and Friday, right here on the Mismatch to break.

[Sean Fennessy]

Down everything that's happening in the league.

[Chris Vernon]

Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe, and hit us with those five star ratings on Spotify.

[Dave Jacoby]

Or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chris Vernon]

And also, don't forget to follow us on social media.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's Ringer NBA.

[Chris Vernon]

And check out the full Mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history of podcasting. Right in The Ringer NBA YouTube channel.

[Dave Jacoby]

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[Sean Fennessy]

This is the sound of your ride.

[Dave Jacoby]

Home with dad after he caught you vaping.

[Chris Vernon]

Awkward, isn't it? Most vapes contain seriously addictive levels of nicotine and disappointment. Know the real cost of vapes brought.

[Sean Fennessy]

To you by the fda.

[Chris Vernon]

The rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast network. It is no longer Scary month. We are back to normal podcast. Sean Fennessy is here, host of the Big Picture.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Chris Ryan, president of Linda Shaw Enterprises.

[Dave Jacoby]

Can it be Horny November?

[Chris Vernon]

It sure can, E. You have a new film coming out Deep Ghost, the Mating Game.

[Dave Jacoby]

I got some stunt cop film.

[Chris Vernon]

Body Double is next. Don't blink. You're about to witness a crime of.

[Sean Fennessy]

Illusion, an act of deception.

[Dave Jacoby]

A vision of murder.

[Chris Vernon]

Brian default, Body Double. You can't believe everything you see. Rated R. Starts Friday at a theater near you. All right, body double, 40th anniversary this fall. Brian De Palma, Sean's guy. What is he in your Sean's guy rankings?

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, my God.

[Chris Vernon]

Is he one?

[Sean Fennessy]

He's my number one.

[Dave Jacoby]

Pervert.

[Chris Vernon]

Schrader. Number one. Who's number one?

[Sean Fennessy]

Guys who are like, what I'm really thinking about is cranking it. He's number one. That's like all of his movies. When you're watching him, he's like, gosh, I really like how that lady looks. That's what's Running through his mind. If they're all in that ranking, he's number one.

[Chris Vernon]

So this is Dress the Kill Crust with Rear Window Crust with Vertigo. And you just get the feeling De Palma, who I think was post Cocaine at this point, Right?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, hard to say. Cause you've got Stephen Bauer and Melanie Griffith being critical participants in this movie.

[Chris Vernon]

But there's one interview he gave where he was like, everyone was basically in Cocaine's Anonymous playing Trivial Pursuit. And that's how he got to know Melanie Griffith better.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. I think it's right after Scarface.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think stylistically there were still some granules on the back.

[Chris Vernon]

Maybe there's some dust still.

[Dave Jacoby]

Like, maybe not ingested, but it's like it's. The Pixie dust on screen is definitely a misting. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

My feeling is he just watched a bunch of Hitchcock movies and was like, what if these were way hornier and then was off.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, you could say that about a lot of movies in his career. Many of his best movies are thrillers that are overtly inspired by Hitchcock. But he's like, now we can show breasts on screen. And he's excited about that. But also an incredible mastery of filmmaking craft. Much like Hitchcock.

[Chris Vernon]

Yes, Cr.

[Dave Jacoby]

I just find this movie to be so delightful, even though it's so twisted and fucked up. Like, this is like a very funny movie. It reminds me kind of like David lynch movies sometimes, where I'm just like, why is he making that face? And that's what makes it so rewatchable to me, is just like, you can find all these little details in this thing. Like, oh, I didn't notice that this guy was standing behind the payphone at that moment. You know, like, it's a freeze frame movie. It's. It's a, like, rewind the scene movie. It's so fun.

[Chris Vernon]

Is it possible only guys like this movie? Because I tried to make my wife watch this with me, and multiple times in the first hour she was like, this is terrible. You're doing this on the Rewatchables. Why are you doing this?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

And then she just left.

[Dave Jacoby]

Does Carrie have a lot of Twitter accounts?

[Sean Fennessy]

No.

[Chris Vernon]

Maybe.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think he's. He has made movies in his career that women like. You know, Carrie, for example, is a movie that women really love. Body Double.

[Dave Jacoby]

Women love the Untouchables.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

They do not.

[Chris Vernon]

Snake Eyes, they're big fans of.

[Sean Fennessy]

But this is maybe his most. The most pure distillation of his id, you know, the thing this. This idea of watching women move.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

He has said is a huge Inspiration for this movie. He loves to literally follow women and observe how they move. And that's a part of the telling of this story.

[Dave Jacoby]

Man. There's this amazing interview out there. I can't remember which one it is, but it's like Sky's asking De Palma all these sort of probing questions about, like, do you make immoral or amoral art? And all this stuff. And he's like, you know, why do you always have to. It's the woman. Woman's the victim and not the man. And he's like, it's way more entertaining.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, I saw that interview. Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's just like. It's way more interesting.

[Chris Vernon]

What did he mention? He mentioned still of the Night with Roy Scheider.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, he's like, it sucked.

[Chris Vernon]

Nobody wants Roy Scheider in Dange.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. Audrey Hepburn, blind. That's awesome.

[Chris Vernon]

Like, yeah, he's given. Him and Schrader are probably leaders in the clubhouse for just awesome. Letting it fly. I don't get any more interviews. Yeah, I'll just throw. I'll just throw bombs and. Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

But De Palma has always been like that. There's a great clip of De Palma on Dick Cavett's show with Scorsese in the early se. Maybe mid-70s. And even then, he's just. He's being such a sarcastic little bastard. For every question that Dick Cavett asks. He never really cared, which is part of what makes him great.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. I mean, if you have that kind of talent, you can afford to be that cocky. But, you know, there's so many different ways his career could have gone if probably he played ball, like, 5 more percent. But then it wouldn't be these movies. They would be slightly different.

[Chris Vernon]

You know, this was the most power he had. Cause he's coming off a stretch from 76 to 83. Carrie, the Fury, Dress to Kill, Blowout, Scarface, and then Columbia's like, Three Picture Deal. Go. And he's like, thank you. I will go. Actually, I have some ideas. Yeah. I was doing Dress to Kill, and there was a whole thing of Ninja Dick. And I thought, hmm, what a cool idea for a movie. And then I watched every Hitchcock movie, and I lost my mind.

[Dave Jacoby]

He also, I think, was getting a lot of backlash for those movies that were the ones you listed off that were so popular. And some directors and some artists might be like, oh, okay, I'll soften it up a little bit. I'll change gears. He's just like, I'm gonna go 110% in the direction that people criticize Me in, you know, violence even to the end. Yeah. Nudity throws in a blood going over.

[Chris Vernon]

A body double's breast scene just to end the movie. For the credits, he's like this, basically. Hey, guys.

[Sean Fennessy]

I do think he's weirdly, though, being honest about the fact that this is what he believes people want. Because he's like, this is what I want. What I love is high toned, beautifully imagined violence and sex. That's a human impulse and there's nothing wrong with rendering it and making fun of the fact that this is what we like, this movie. It's a comedy, it's a satire. It's meant to be fun and funny and ridiculous. Yeah, it's all on purpose. So I don't. I don't blame him for pursuing that.

[Chris Vernon]

I wrote the Wikipedia. The description should have been an emasculated, cucked, claustrophobic, stalking, peeping tom wannabe adult film producer almost finds love with a porn actress and an embattled wife who gets murdered by a drill dress to kill. Coming up next.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's pretty accurate.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Yeah, it's one of the weirdest. And I want to really go into the casting of that. One of the weirdest protagonists we've had. But it seems like a big inspiration for him. It was really fun reading all the depaulment interviews. I watched a documentary he said in 2024. Cause he was doing press for the 40th anniversary. I think why my type of movies last so long is they're very cinematic. Cinema kind of died with celluloid because you don't have the same cinematographers anymore. You don't have film anymore. It's now completely dominated by the writers and showrunners. And the movies and shows are basically radio plays full of people talking to each other. And they're all shooting digitally. It doesn't look very interesting. He was very obsessed with.

[Dave Jacoby]

Look, I had a very funny experience with this where I watched it once and then I was kind of like watching it to take notes. And I'm obviously very used to watching TV at this point where I kind of more or less just need to hear it.

[Chris Vernon]

It's almost like a podcast with moving pictures.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, I mean, like, especially if you're like watching a lot, you're just like, oh, okay. Like these two people are talking about whether this guy is the bad guy or not. And it's like they're sitting in a room. You don't really. It's not like there's going to be some amazing piece of filmmak that you Miss. But I actually, like, I think got up to go get a bottle of water while Body Double was on. And I was like, oh, I missed. Like, I missed. The whole point of this being on film, on screen in the first place is to visually stimulate and. Or terrify and. Or accelerate your heartbeat. And that the dialogue is basically secondary in this film and in many diploma.

[Sean Fennessy]

Films, even the story, which is like labyrinthine and confusing at times and kind of silly, but not very good, you know, the story of this movie. Because he talks about this, how it's all about this. He wants the structure. Like, he's interested in the structure and then everything else that goes into it. The plotting and the dialogue is sort of like the details you have to figure out afterwards. He's like, but I have an idea about a movie where a guy observes someone, but the person that he's observing isn't the person he thinks it is. Like, that's the thing that gets him excited about making the movie, which is different than we're making a new TV series. And it has a high concept. And what's most important is that the dialogue crackle. He doesn't care about that stuff.

[Chris Vernon]

That's why I have, like, 13 nitpicks coming up later. There's some holes.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's flawed. Yeah, it's flawed.

[Chris Vernon]

There's some holes. I love it, though. I saw this movie. I did not see it in the theater. I've never seen this movie in the theater, actually. I would like to see this movie in the theater.

[Sean Fennessy]

I would, too. I haven't either.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, I saw this. This was in the hbo, you know, early blockbuster Vortex. I'm a teenager, and it was like, this was a run where we had American Gigolo, Dressed to Kill, Body Heat, Postman Always Rings Twice, Thief of Hearts, Crimes of Passion, Tight Rope, and body double. In five years, in the early 80s, I'm gonna call this horny film noir.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think that's exactly what it is.

[Chris Vernon]

Cause it's like erotic thriller crossed with film noir. And it's this specific category. It even shifts as the 80s go along. Cause then in the late 80s, we get into this nine and a half weeks, Angel Heart, Fatal Attraction, Masquerade. It becomes more popcorny.

[Dave Jacoby]

Adrian Lyon, kinda.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are more like really cool Hitchcock homage type movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

Or I think it's a hinge point between Body Heat and Basic Instinct. You know what I mean? Like, if those are really the two poles of that era of those kinds of movies. And two of the best examples, Body Double is like the most lurid, but the most mainstream at the same time.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Well, as a teenager, it worked. It was great. Fell in love with Melanie Griffith.

[Sean Fennessy]

So what was your relationship to her before this movie came out?

[Chris Vernon]

Only knew her from one on one with Robbie Benson. She played the hitchhiker. Didn't know any of the lore because she had been.

[Sean Fennessy]

She was in some movies in the 70s when she was a teenager.

[Chris Vernon]

She had a little run as a teenager.

[Dave Jacoby]

She's in a drowning pool. Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

Drowning pool. Night. Move. Smile.

[Chris Vernon]

Pretty severe problems in the early 80s, I think. Pretty legendary. Wild child. And then I think, cleaned it up a little bit. And then by the end of the 80s, it was one of the biggest actresses we had. She's in Working Girl. That movie is a phenomenon.

[Sean Fennessy]

Her. Her 80s, her mid-80s, is even more amazing than I had remembered. The run that she goes on after this movie is incredible.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. And that's when Something Wild happens. Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

Something Wild is immediately after Fear City, the Abel Ferrar movie. And then she's in Milagro, Beanfield War, the Robert Redford movie, and Working Girl in the same year.

[Chris Vernon]

She also had and Pacific Heights. It's pretty rare that somebody had the exact look of the look you needed in the year. Like, you see her in this movie. It's exactly what a lot of the. A lot of the musicians looked like, a lot of, like the porn actresses looked like. You name it. It was just this. Wrestlers. Whoever it was, she just kind of fit in perfectly.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

And then it crests with Pacific Heights, one of the great movies of all time. It's up there when she battles Carter Hayes.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's up there with La Notte and.

[Chris Vernon]

Her versus Carter Hayes is where have.

[Sean Fennessy]

You done that on the show?

[Chris Vernon]

No, we've been saving it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

All right, There's From Hell. It might. Might be From Hell.

[Dave Jacoby]

From Hell year.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Just From Hell until we run for.

[Sean Fennessy]

The election to determine that.

[Chris Vernon]

Or yeah. Maybe De Palma said about this movie at the time, if this one doesn't get an X, nothing I ever do is going to. This is going to be the most erotic and surprising and thrilling movie I know how to make. I'm going to give them everything they hate. More of it than they've ever seen. They think Scarface was violent. They think my other movies were erotic. Wait until they see Body Double.

[Sean Fennessy]

You dropped a little bit of you think you're better than me.

[Chris Vernon]

I can't push the envelope.

[Sean Fennessy]

He didn't actually get to do what he wanted to do, though.

[Chris Vernon]

But that's I was gonna have this for the hottest take that. I feel like this movie's pretty tame compared to what potential was.

[Sean Fennessy]

I agree.

[Chris Vernon]

Because you've watched Crimes of Passion now. That movie is insane.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think that this movie pretends like it's incredibly horny and titillating and is actually more about, like, how funny and weird all this, like, sex industry and sex it can be.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

And so that's he's, like, selling you on, like, yeah, it's a lot of topless chicks in this movie. It's great. But then you get there and you're like, oh, this actually isn't. This isn't titillating at all. Because it's like, what if this was just a day job for people?

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, the porn industry stuff. Yeah. But also spending two hours with Craig Wasson, who's like, the weirdest dork of all time.

[Dave Jacoby]

Can we talk a little bit about the casting of the leading man stuff?

[Chris Vernon]

I have that right here.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Two more things on De Palma. He hired this writer to work on the script with Robert Avrick, who later said his work on the film was working off De Palma's ideas of Hitchcock's ideas. So there you go. And then De Palma, the research on this was great. He originally planned for this to be the first Hollywood film to have unsimulated sex scenes.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's what I was referring to.

[Chris Vernon]

And the studio was like, nope, no, thank you.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'd like to know that quote that you read of his. If that came before he got told he could not do that.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Because he was like, I'm going to make a mainstream porno. That's my plan here. And didn't get the chance.

[Chris Vernon]

The 80s were great. As we've said many times. Just cocaine was fueling a lot of the creativity from 78 to 86.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's so funny because it took us like 37 minutes to get to work today. And I was like, I'm watching these guys just drive their gas guzzling convertibles, like, from Culver City to the Hollywood Hills in five minutes. And I'm like, ah, God damn it.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Cast decisions so in order. Craig Wasson is the lead. He's like, Bill Maher crossed with Breck and Meyer.

[Sean Fennessy]

Nailed it. I'm going to pass out. How? That's so good. Like that. That's exactly what he looks like.

[Chris Vernon]

It's like if they had a kid.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's perfect.

[Chris Vernon]

I have no idea why he's the lead of the movie. And I think the Palma smarter than us. So there had to have been a reason he wanted to have somebody who wasn't an actual. A lister or a star.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think people have talked about, like, it just doesn't work if it's Travolta.

[Sean Fennessy]

Exactly.

[Dave Jacoby]

It doesn't work if it's. If it's Al Pacino or something. And like you're like, oh, that's Al Pacino or John Travolta, who's a big.

[Sean Fennessy]

Time movie star that you would also describe as a cuck. Does one exist?

[Chris Vernon]

Well, but. And nobody would want that part where it's like, hey, cool, I'm doing this movie where I walk in on my girlfriend riding somebody in my room. When he's seen.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's not like he's like, oh, no. He's like. And he just kind of like skulks out of the room. Like, it's so emasculating.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. So that's why. Yeah, because I had him recasting couch. I was like, if Kurt Russell was this guy, is this a better movie or a worse movie?

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's a worse movie, but you get a better lead performance. I think that I don't want to get too far ahead, but like, Tom Hanks is kind of perfect for this movie.

[Chris Vernon]

I thought about Tom Hanks too, because.

[Sean Fennessy]

What he's doing is he's trying to recreate the Jimmy Stewart part. The regular, the Ordinary man that Hitchcock was so good at portraying. And in the 40s and 50s and 60s, the ordinary man stars seemed more like regular guys. They didn't seem like Tom Cruise or they didn't seem like Patrick Swayze or John Travolta. They were like. They look like somebody's dad.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But a more handsome version. And so that isn't really the trend in 84. And so he leans into a guy who, you know, seemingly is a dweeb.

[Chris Vernon]

Could it have been Dreyfus?

[Dave Jacoby]

He's such a big stun on my girlfriend.

[Chris Vernon]

I can't do you do a better Dreyfus than me.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's like, come on. The bite radius on my girlfriend was not from a tiger shark.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's pretty good.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, that was. Sometimes you gotta defer to CR with the impersonation.

[Sean Fennessy]

Wasn't Dreyfus, like lost at this time?

[Chris Vernon]

He was done. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

[Dave Jacoby]

Goodbye, girl. Like, he had been in John, but.

[Chris Vernon]

That was five years ago.

[Dave Jacoby]

But he was in hits, though.

[Chris Vernon]

But in 84 he was in a cocaine park.

[Dave Jacoby]

This guy literally is the dude who moves to LA to be an actor, thinks he's hot shit. Finds out he is like, the 350th draft pick in that town and spends all of his time doing B movies or going to auditions and going to acting classes.

[Chris Vernon]

So he's kind of perfect. But he's also as a quarterback, he's a game manager at best.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think that he's perfect in the first act of the movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Kind of the minu.

[Dave Jacoby]

When it changes over when the playoffs come. In this film, I think you want a little bit more of like, a. A blue chip arm behind.

[Chris Vernon]

Can you do the claustrophobic face?

[Sean Fennessy]

This movie also did nothing for his career. Everything that comes after this because he.

[Dave Jacoby]

Won a Golden Globe for an Arthur Penn movie that I had never heard of for Friends.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Dave Jacoby]

And he. And he kind of just does, like, a lot of voiceover work, and he's done a lot of B movies. And.

[Chris Vernon]

Could you have talked yourself into Caruso?

[Dave Jacoby]

David Caruso?

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

There's no way anyone would cheat on David Caruso, really.

[Chris Vernon]

Caruso. Like, two years after Officer and a Gentleman.

[Dave Jacoby]

Stuff of legends. Can you imagine watching Gloria being like, stuff of legends?

[Chris Vernon]

Stuff of legends. It's a really weird lead choice. It's for movies that I really like and I've seen a million times. This is probably the weirdest number one person in a movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

It still sticks out.

[Chris Vernon]

Even seeing him in the credits, it's like, ah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

He is the star of the movie.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. Star of the movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Griffith is only in, like, 18 minutes of this movie.

[Chris Vernon]

Star of like, a top five at the time. Famous director.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yep.

[Chris Vernon]

Just was like, that's my guy.

[Dave Jacoby]

I was watching this in, like, the first eight minutes after he leaves the set, and he's like, stops and gets hot dogs with onions on everything. I love that he's like that, and he's, like, picking everything up, and he keeps jumping into his car. He doesn't, like, get in through the door. I was like, did I pick the. Like, am I having a stroke? Is this actually the first 15 minutes of this movie? Is this guy just, like, kind of haggling across Los Angeles? And it's really strange because you're just like, this dude is not a movie star.

[Chris Vernon]

No, no. There are a lot of people, like this guy who come to Hollywood and they're like, I know maybe I'm missing a couple things, but I feel like. And they point to two actors that maybe they can follow that path. And within five years, they're moving back to Kansas City.

[Dave Jacoby]

And then Giamatti's like, like, Fuck, no. Get out of here.

[Chris Vernon]

It's like, clear out. So Giamatti could have been somebody.

[Dave Jacoby]

Giamatti.

[Chris Vernon]

30 years later, right?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, he could.

[Sean Fennessy]

He could have been Dennis Franz. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Deborah Shelton, who plays Gloria Ravel, is so bad in this movie that they had to redub her voice. With Helen Shaver, which I don't ever remember reading. And we've done 363 rewatchables. I don't ever remember somebody being cast.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's almost like a spaghetti Western. Like, it almost makes his interactions with Gloria feel, like, otherworldly.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I just. I just watched a movie called Death Game with Seymour Cassell where the same thing happened where at the end of the movie, that they needed to do ADR because it wasn't recorded well enough. But Seymour Cassell hated the director, and he was like, fuck you. I'm not coming back for adr. So they dubbed over his entire performance with somebody else's voice. But in an American movie production, it's very rare.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Cause I always thought that was her voice. And I always wondered why she wasn't a bigger star. Cause she's hot.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Vernon]

But it turns out, I don't know what was wrong with her.

[Dave Jacoby]

But is her voice like Fran Drescher?

[Chris Vernon]

I don't know. What is Deborah Shelsey's voice?

[Sean Fennessy]

No. I watched an interview with her. I thought it was totally normal. I watched a bunch of interviews with her connected to the anniversary of this movie.

[Dave Jacoby]

And Helen Shaver, amazing voice.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Great voice.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But Helen Shaver, like, she's got the. I smoke two packs a day.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, which is very sultry.

[Chris Vernon]

That's why CR was like, hey, there. Hey. Well, and then Melanie Griffith, he casts her and she becomes a massive star almost immediately. Gold Globe nomination, but revives her career. De Palma said, I knew Melanie because we played trivia of Pursuit together. It was Steve Bauer and Melanie and a bunch of other actors. These were all actors that had come out of, like, Cocaine Anonymous. They were all being rehabilitated. I got to know her quite well, and she really wanted to play the part. We have a really good casting. What if for this? But I don't know anyone else who's like, Melanie Griffith. Like this 80s version of Melanie Griffith. There's certainly been nobody in the last 20 years like this.

[Sean Fennessy]

She's in a tradition of a certain kind of movie star, like Judy Holiday. She was in the remake of Born Yesterday. Or, you know, certainly Marilyn Monroe, where sort of like, don't underestimate the intelligence of this beautiful Blonde, you know, that's like a traditional holiday.

[Chris Vernon]

Seemingly ditzy, but not really. Anna Faris tried to pull this off, but couldn't pull it off. She did in the Cameron Dia, the Coppola movie, right?

[Sean Fennessy]

Lost in Translation. Yeah. I mean she is in that tradition. Cameron Diaz is in that tradition, you know, like that. It's like an archetype that kind of persists. She though has something a little bit different because she's like really naughty. You know, like there's something very.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. More so than Jamie Lee Curtis in Trading Places. Like, which is.

[Chris Vernon]

And Jamie Lee Curtis was rumored for this movie and I think Melanie Griffith works so much better. It needs to be ditzy but kind of street smart and ultimately like a little bit dirty deep down.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, yeah. You buy her as Holly Body in this movie for sure.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

You have bought her on VHS.

[Chris Vernon]

Chris has literally bought her on 3/4 inch tape. Here's the Palma Topama on erratic thrillers. Are they dead? Was the question. I think so. I don't know what's going to change. Something new will emerge. Maybe it'll have to come out of Europe, but I don't see it. As I said, I'm constantly looking for stuff to look at. It's in the hands of the writers and the showrunners who are being paid a lot of money by tech companies. This is not a good place for independent art to evolve.

[Dave Jacoby]

It is funny that this guy could just basically be like, I love watching porn. And we're like, oh God, what an auteur. He's just like, you know, he's really putting in the work and he's just like, I'm scouting Europe, trust me. Yeah, there's an emerging porn, emerging erotic.

[Chris Vernon]

Thriller industry out of Bulgaria.

[Dave Jacoby]

The reason it's like he found the Luka Doncic of erotic thrillers.

[Chris Vernon]

You guys, he was on erotic thriller, NBA tv.

[Sean Fennessy]

Watch his Euro Hoops also. You know, at the time this movie was made, Columbia was owned by Coca Cola. It's not as though like, oh, the tech companies are holding him back in 2024. Like this was always true. He was always kind, pushing the envelope and trying to get stuff done that other people wouldn't want him to do.

[Chris Vernon]

It does tie to a question that has been being asked this year about nudity in films and how to approach sex when sex is so available on the Internet. What was that movie you liked? Anora.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. The film that is most likely to win best picture this year.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, it has a ton of nudity and Sex. I haven't seen it yet.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it does. I mean, it's about a.

[Dave Jacoby]

How would you compare it to, like, Bulgarian erotic thrillers coming out around.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a little more tame or Hollywood.

[Chris Vernon]

Hollywood.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I mean, but that's a movie, though, about, like, the consequences of working in that environment. And this movie, I would not say, is about that. This movie is not like, here's the downside of being Holly Body.

[Chris Vernon]

It does seem like it's trying to say something about the movie industry, though, because that for sure. One of the rewatchable scenes we'll get to is when Jake and Holly Body, they're finished getting a drink and they run into that actress.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

And they start talking about, oh, what's going on? What are you working on? And. And it feels like De Palma's trying to say something like, these two. These two worlds are not that far. Yeah, we're all whores.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Everyone who does this work is a whore. Whether you're actually in a film where you're having sex or if you're just trying to get your next job, you're whoring yourself all the time.

[Chris Vernon]

And the ending, I think, is the other one where he's like, yes. Yeah. You think? A gratuitous nudity. Okay, watch this. Yeah, I mean, that's for no reason at all. I'm gonna actually have a body double scene, and I'm gonna shoot it perfectly and put blood on the boobs.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's an incredible. It's one of the great, kind of like, tongue in cheek Jo endings of a movie is just like everything that you were sort of like, you know, getting so excited by for the last two hours is just like a guy with a steel bar measuring how far this woman was from the camera. And it's like, it's.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, it's. It's really behind the scenes.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's also an echo of the Angie Dickinson scene in Dress to Kill, which is like a shadow scene that is kind of focusing on her.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, you guys don't remember because you were probably not born yet. But I remember that that body double, that was a big. There was like, a People magazine feature about her. And I remember thinking, like. And I hadn't even seen the movie, but I was like, wait, so they have. Somebody's getting naked, but then somebody else is the one getting. I'm. I'm like, what's. I was like, 10. What's going on?

[Sean Fennessy]

There was a pretty famous one when we were growing up where it was like, that is in her real butt or something. I got it.

[Chris Vernon]

There's been a lot of those, though.

[Sean Fennessy]

There was one in the 90s that was very memorable, but because I remember when Striptease came out, it was like, that's Demi Moore.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Like, there are no body doubles in this movie. That is her dancing, you know, it's unmistakable. But a lot of the time in those situations, you'd use a body double.

[Chris Vernon]

Really fun. I've let. I'll be 22 years in LA this month, and I've seen this movie a bunch of times, having never lived here, not knowing where anything was. But now that I'm here, yes, it's one of the better. Oh, oh, oh, that place. Hey, Farmer's Market.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, he's going to the Farmer's Market.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, all the pup.

[Chris Vernon]

Barney's beanie.

[Dave Jacoby]

Is the mall that she buys the underwear. Is that.

[Chris Vernon]

That's a rodeo one. My wife goes, okay. She was all excited about that. That was before she stormed off. This movie sucks.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's pretty different, though. Like, you don't see LA captured this way on film anymore because you can't shoot movies here the same way.

[Chris Vernon]

Right? It's much harder because we have a dumb mayor who won't give tax credits to have people shoot film and TV here so we can make more money.

[Sean Fennessy]

Absolutely.

[Chris Vernon]

That's why she got booed. No, that's why she got booed. Like, how about this? Let's shoot movies and TV shows here.

[Dave Jacoby]

They should do whatever they have to do to make that happen.

[Sean Fennessy]

LA is a beautiful city.

[Chris Vernon]

Louisiana is a great city with a storied tradition of shooting shit here. Let's start making it happen again, dumbasses. It was really nice to see la, though. And so that house, which. It's called the Chemisphere, I always thought it was on Sunset because there's a house on Sunset going toward the Palisades.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's up on stills.

[Chris Vernon]

That's up. And I was like, oh, that's the Body Double House. And it's not.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's theories.

[Chris Vernon]

That's like a ripple.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's sort of like the Valley, right? Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, Famous house. I said it was on sale. John thought about it.

[Sean Fennessy]

It was on sale, like, I don't know, 10 years ago or something. Eight years ago, while I was living here. And it was expensive, but not as expensive as you would imagine, probably because.

[Dave Jacoby]

It'S not very functional.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not a very efficient home to live in.

[Dave Jacoby]

Great, great home.

[Chris Vernon]

Tough one for the kids with the 700 stairs.

[Dave Jacoby]

Hold on, I have to get the freak killer to come meet us.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, but I remember talking to Eileen and saying, like, is there any chance you would consider living here? Just because I love Body Double and also I love the Hollywood Hills, I thought it'd be a cool place to live. If I had it now with a three year old, I would be so fucked. Oh my God. You could never do it.

[Chris Vernon]

Could never do it.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's hard to decide whether it's the best house on stilts or if that still belongs to Lethal Weapon 2 to the one that Riggs pulls down.

[Sean Fennessy]

Good one.

[Chris Vernon]

Or. Neil, don't leave me like this.

[Sean Fennessy]

Neil, that house is on stilts.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, yeah, okay.

[Dave Jacoby]

Overlooking the ocean.

[Chris Vernon]

That house was for sale like a.

[Dave Jacoby]

Like, how did he get. I mean, I know how he got. He robbed banks. But that was a great, great spot.

[Chris Vernon]

Really nice.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. She's like, do you run a credit check or what? It's a good point.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, really good point.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. This is. It's a very celebratory LA movie. Everything, all the stuff during the day you're just like, oh yeah. Although they cheat a little. They go to Long beach for the hotel scene.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, is that where that is?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, it makes it seem like that's in like Santa Monica or Venice or that's Long Beach.

[Dave Jacoby]

So that's the sun baked. Like the auditions that he goes to, the backlots. Like all the like sort of. All that stuff is really, really well rendered.

[Chris Vernon]

Producer Craig, did you like the LA pieces of this movie?

[D]

Wonderful la. Iconic LA movie.

[Chris Vernon]

Okay, well, I can't wait for your take at the end. I don't want to spoil it.

[Sean Fennessy]

One of the things that I like about the laness of it is that every set, every place he chooses to go is in some way artificial. Which is like a big part of the idea of the movie is like Tale of the Pup is this like art deco sculpture of some kind. The Rodeo Mall is this like beautifully designed but completely fake artificial space. And those are the places he's most drawn to. Cause that's, you know, that is what it's like.

[Dave Jacoby]

And then the movie often will take flights of fancy where it's like, is this actually. I mean, it's happening but you know, it'll change the back projection or, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, there's that great opening moment where the set is being moved, the desert scene, and you think it's real and then it starts moving and you're like.

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, that's the movie though.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Vernon]

I mean, well, I have a good unanswerable question for that. Where was the office for Linda Shaw Enterprises when you went into work? Was it a. Three days a week there?

[Sean Fennessy]

That's out back in your shed now.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's right. It's in the ADU when you're filming.

[Chris Vernon]

One day at a time.

[Dave Jacoby]

Karen Bass has encouraged us to zone up.

[Chris Vernon]

You got it.

[Sean Fennessy]

You would crush as one of those guys in the hot tub with her. What's that. What was that guy's name?

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, the guy who's interviewing. Sid Goldberg's doing incredible pod work.

[Chris Vernon]

Sid Goldberg almost has the damn waiters.

[Dave Jacoby]

Locked out when she's like, I'm an expressionist. He's like, I think you mean exhibitionist.

[Chris Vernon]

Can't wait to talk about him. $10 million budget made. 8.8 million.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sad.

[Dave Jacoby]

But it's lived on.

[Chris Vernon]

It bombed. And even when he did the documentary, he talks about it like it's just an abject failure. And I completely disagree. I love this movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, it's beloved now, though. I mean, it has. It's.

[Chris Vernon]

But in 2015, he was making it seem like it failed. Like, I almost feel like once you feel like something failed, nobody will ever convince you otherwise.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's it.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. He's also. I mean, like, when you think about the generation of filmmakers that he came up with, like, the last third of his career is not as. As heralded as Spielberg and Scorsese. You know, it's not as. He hasn't had that, like, auto green light. Here's $200 million to make your dream project Brian De Palma. I don't think it's because he doesn't lack ideas. I think it's because his kinds of movies have really fallen out of fashion.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think he's also wildly uncompromising. Doesn't play nice, talks straight. He's not. You know, Spielberg is. You know, he's the real mayor of Los Angeles. You know, like, De Palma is the opposite. He's dyspeptic, he's aggressive. He's very sure of himself. And his hits are intermittent. He's not consistent. But, like, I don't know. He made Mission Impossible.

[Chris Vernon]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know what I mean? Like, let that guy make an action. Like, why he didn't make more action movies in the 2000s, I don't know. He was so good at them.

[Chris Vernon]

It feels like as the years pass, he started to grow in stature with, like, future Generations. And you can see, like, the late 90s guys that came up were definitely influenced by him. I think there's another generation coming.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think Soderbergh, Fincher Tarantino.

[Dave Jacoby]

Those guys, there's so much Boogie Nights in this.

[Sean Fennessy]

They're pulling so much movies. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Roger Ebert.

[Dave Jacoby]

This is. This is honestly one of the greatest, greatest Ebert segments.

[Chris Vernon]

Three and a half stars.

[Sean Fennessy]

We salute him.

[Chris Vernon]

An exhilarating exercise in pure filmmaking. A thriller in the Hitchcock tradition. There's no particular point except that the hero's flawed, weak, and in terrible danger. And we identify with him completely.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

Pauline Kale came in and it's like, hold my beer. Yeah, it's an awful disappointment.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

She was, like, completely betrayed by De Palma, who she was a big defender of.

[Dave Jacoby]

I like when Pauline Kael is like, I hate this, but not for the reasons you think I do. That's always like, my favorite reason.

[Chris Vernon]

This is a tough run for Pauline in that 82 to 84 range she became.

[Sean Fennessy]

She's falling out of step a bit.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. She was a generation removed and super salty.

[Dave Jacoby]

And it's kind of her October Aaron Judge moment, you know?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

What was that missing? A lot of high insights.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. You can get the cutter past her.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. No, but she went and tried to make that movie. Right. With Warm Beatty.

[Sean Fennessy]

Warm Beatty lured her to come out and make a movie.

[Chris Vernon]

Five year tailspin, but it was like a trial she missed on some of these.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, but like, they set her up to fail too, and that it was to kind of get back at her for being as kind of bare knuckled as she was over the years. Ebert, though. Ebert hates a slasher, but he's so horny. So this is a real conundrum for the guy. And the horndog wins out.

[Chris Vernon]

Horndog defeats the slasher.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yes. It would be great if they had been done as Siskel and where it was like Ebert and the Indian.

[Chris Vernon]

Cisco dressed up as that guy.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, surprisingly, Ebert's like pure cinema. And the Indians, like, I love it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is Byron Mayo the Indian.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, God.

[Chris Vernon]

Today is the most rewatchable scene brought to you by Paramount, where a mountain of movies awaits. A mountain of heart pounding action blockbusters like Top Maverick, Mission Impossible, Fallout, and Gladiator. You guys saw Gladiator too?

[Sean Fennessy]

We did, we did.

[Chris Vernon]

Thanks for the invite. A mountain of jump scares with thrillers like Scream 6, Smile in a Quiet Place, Day 1.

[Dave Jacoby]

We also hung out with Denzel Washington afterwards and he was like, where's Bill?

[Chris Vernon]

Great. A mountain of fun for the kiddos. Family favorites like if Paw Patrol, the movie Endor, the Lost City of Gold. Discover something new every single week on Paramount. Plus. Well, I have a bunch of rewatchable scenes including Would you put Jake walking in on his girlfriend as a watchable scene.

[Dave Jacoby]

I would.

[Sean Fennessy]

The great Barbara Crampton legend. Barbara Crampton.

[Chris Vernon]

She. Her. IMDb she's naked coming out of the gate in the first couple and then she settles down a little.

[Sean Fennessy]

Salute her.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Reanimator from beyond.

[Chris Vernon]

So this guy comes home, he's in a great mood.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yes.

[Chris Vernon]

In the kitchen. It's like a very well scouted out location. It's like your classic kind of long.

[Dave Jacoby]

One floor, middle class existence. This guy's carved out by himself by living at his girlfriend's apartment.

[Chris Vernon]

Like mid Beverly kind of location. Probably second floor of a three story thing. And he's in there, he's like, huh.

[Dave Jacoby]

Here.

[Chris Vernon]

Laughing and groaning. I wonder what's going on.

[Sean Fennessy]

But he's got a big smile on his face the whole time.

[Chris Vernon]

I'm gonna surprise my wife.

[Dave Jacoby]

I got onions on everything.

[Chris Vernon]

She's not gonna believe I'm home.

[Dave Jacoby]

I'm in Vampire's Kiss.

[Chris Vernon]

Come on. And then he's just walking down this long hallway and it's like. And he's like, ah, she's really having a great time in there doing something.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

That never occurs to him.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is it possible that he thinks that she's just masturbating and that he's gonna walk?

[Dave Jacoby]

I thought he was like, she's watching like Abbott and Costello or something. Cause when you watch, she's laughing more normally. And then it's like when she gets there and the kill shot is her kind of being like, I'm gonna finish, you know?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. She's like, can you hold on? Crucial point here.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, also, she communicates pretty clearly like it's over.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's over between us. I'm sorry.

[Chris Vernon]

Kind of ripped off by Paul Thomas Anderson a little bit with Boogie Nights.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sure.

[Chris Vernon]

Nina Hartley.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Basically the same exact. Almost like the same angle. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Fortunately, Craig Wasson did not put a gun in his mouth. You know, unlike Little Bill.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's right.

[Chris Vernon]

Tough, tough reaction for Jake, but kind of establishes this guy sucks.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

This guy's just going to worm backwards out and then go to Barney's Beanery and. And lose his edge. Lose his edge.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Anyway, never been to Barney's Beanery.

[Dave Jacoby]

I have not been there at 1pm drinking shots of Jack. I'll tell you that.

[Chris Vernon]

Next one. Jake's first time at the house sitting place where we get to see the house.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, so you're skipping over.

[Chris Vernon]

What am I skipping? Tell me.

[Sean Fennessy]

The Method acting class.

[Chris Vernon]

I want you to cry out. I can on the sardine. Am I supposed so sardines and a cat are dead. They can't feel. They can't be afraid.

[Dave Jacoby]

But you're alive and afraid. You're not a goddamn dead sardine.

[Chris Vernon]

Big soundtrack. Cry out. Okay. I don't love the acting teacher, but that's a good. That's an important scene. You're right.

[Sean Fennessy]

So it's an important scene that I don't like. Like, I don't think that scene works, but it's hugely important to the movie.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Because Sam identifies.

[Chris Vernon]

I just don't like the teacher in that one.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Dave Jacoby]

This guy's trapped.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Vernon]

The la. Here's my house. I gotta. Gotta take off for five weeks. Just gotta water these plants.

[Sean Fennessy]

What is it? What?

[Chris Vernon]

CR was dying for something like this to happen when he moved here in 2011.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. I thought I was gonna.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Miles Tower's got to take off for five weeks.

[Sean Fennessy]

You had this. You were in 1010 Wilshire for. For like three months.

[Dave Jacoby]

I was only there for the month, but we stayed the full month. Even after our apartment.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought it was longer than a month.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think it was only a month, but it was like. Our apartment was, like, ready, and our landlord was like, it's all set. You can move in. And we were like, we're good. We're living in, like, a loft apartment above the 110.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did you stay? Cause you were peeping across the street.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, that's right. She's got a telescope. And then we get the old. Yeah, it's a great show here. Every night at 9pm the neighbor just does the striptease for no reason.

[Sean Fennessy]

See her?

[Dave Jacoby]

Whoa, whoa. Gets better.

[Chris Vernon]

What's she doing? Keep watching.

[Dave Jacoby]

You'll see. You want to get a little closer?

[Chris Vernon]

You bet. Oh, she's a little out of focus. Yes, yes, yes.

[Dave Jacoby]

Hang on.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Does she do this a lot?

[Dave Jacoby]

Like clockwork. Every night.

[Chris Vernon]

Every night she just does a little dance. The 80s were songs.

[Dave Jacoby]

That guy. He's not Craig. He's not. Like, what?

[Chris Vernon]

I would have so many questions. I would be like, wait a second. Yeah, 9:00pm Is it like Monday through Thursday? Is it seven days a week?

[Dave Jacoby]

Did she stop to watch taxis?

[Chris Vernon]

So what's going on? Who's the show for? Is it for you? Is it the same spot? Like, where's her? I would. Had 40 questions.

[Sean Fennessy]

He fortunately only begins explaining those things once. Jake gets a look at what's going on. And you could have said anything to him in that moment, and he would have accepted it because he's enraptured by what?

[Chris Vernon]

He's an emasculating.

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, he's also like, I've gone from living on some guy's sofa at Hollywood Tower, another great LA location for the movie, to living in this lap of luxury, which I guess must be the ongoing never ending dream that you can go from nothing to everything overnight.

[Chris Vernon]

Here.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's a cool setup.

[Chris Vernon]

Circle bed, rotating circle bed, telescope. With a neighbor who masturbates at nine o'clock every night. He's like, I'm good, I accept. So I just gotta water these plants. I don't know. Where did you park in that place? On the bottom of the street.

[Dave Jacoby]

I assumed there was like a driver getting the funicular.

[Sean Fennessy]

The funicular? Yeah.

[D]

I really thought the plants thing was gonna come.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, it's Chekhov's. It's. It's weird. It doesn't really ever.

[Sean Fennessy]

Don't let these plants die. Yeah.

[D]

I was like, oh, he's not gonna water the plants. Something will happen.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think that's supposed to be to keep him home. Like have him come home after 6pm every day. So he waters the plants and he's like really taking it seriously. The other funny thing about it is that like his alcoholism or whatever is mentioned briefly in that Barney's beanery scene. But then the rest of the movie, he pretty much is just getting jet, like sloshed. He's just drinking cores and watching porn. Important.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. He's looking at his watch. It's like it's 8, 44, 16 minutes.

[Dave Jacoby]

Better drink a bottle of champagne and get into the rotating bed.

[Chris Vernon]

Time for the show. Weird housewife across the way.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is a real like, could not be made in 2024 movie in so many ways.

[Dave Jacoby]

Because you can't even explain it. Like there's everything about it is like, what?

[Sean Fennessy]

The plotting is so stupid.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, and then later when he leaving and the Indian's like down, kind of stalking, and there's the tree in the street and it's just like, how did all of that stuff happen at the same time? How did they know he was gonna leave?

[Sean Fennessy]

Does the Indian know that Jake is gonna be able to see him spying? And how does he know that?

[Chris Vernon]

A lot of questions. Yeah, well, Jake starts trailing the dancing housewife is our next rewatchable scene. Goes to the rodeo collection indoor outdoor mall. What? My wife is a huge fan of that mom. She wanted me to mention that in the pod before she stormed off. He's the most obvious, worst stalker slash follower probably ever.

[Dave Jacoby]

He doesn't even talk into the pay phone. He just picks it up. He's just, like, staring at her while she's talking.

[Chris Vernon]

It's actually like he should be probably thrown in jail. He's so crazy.

[Sean Fennessy]

They stop him. They stop him.

[Chris Vernon]

Takes the panties out of the garbage can at one point. Chris, what'd you think of Pinot Dinagio's score during this?

[Dave Jacoby]

Beautiful.

[Chris Vernon]

Okay. Yeah, I know you're a big Pino fan.

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, I was gonna say, I know that we have great shot Gordo coming up. And we have a rewatchable scene here. This is six sequence Stephen for Stephen Broom, the guy director of photography. Just all of the stuff of them at the payphone, going up, the escalators, the cameras, like, roving around, finding one person going over to another. It's so great.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. And like, nothing's happening. And it's so much fun to watch. Every piece of it is, like, mesmerizing. And literally nothing's happening. She's just walking around a mall.

[Sean Fennessy]

It feels very much like a continuation or a sequel to the museum sequence at the beginning of Kill, you know, where it's just like he's just trailing someone. And you don't really totally know why, but you know something is wrong. Something is off. You can't figure out what it's going to be. And there's so. There's, like, tension, but fascination. And like you said, Deborah Shelton is like. She's like a. Like you had to imagine her. You know what I mean? She's like, so perfect looking that you're entranced by what you're watching. But it feels unreal.

[Chris Vernon]

If she showed up at, like, your dinner party, you'd be like, what's going on?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Vernon]

Who looks like this? We also have claustrophobia in the elevator.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's right.

[Chris Vernon]

Wanna do your face. The claustrophobia music's good, too. The. There's too many people in the elevator.

[Dave Jacoby]

I'm in the coffin and I don't like it.

[Chris Vernon]

We also get a really good creepy shot when she's trying on the underwear and he's getting a good look and he's like. He's looking around and really peeking in. He's such a creep in this. Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's the best. Is like, you watch half this movie and then when the cop shows up, he's just like. You're a gross little peeper, aren't you?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. And as the viewer, you're watching go. Yeah. Some solid points.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you think De Palma is saying it's not that weird to do this?

[Dave Jacoby]

I think he's saying, we do it. It's just this guy's doing it 8%. More like this guy can't help his obsession, so he's stopping. It's like you may see somebody beautiful at a shopping mall and be like, oh, that person just walked by. He's like, the extra 8% of I'm gonna watch her go into Victoria's Secret.

[Chris Vernon]

See, I disagree. I think his thing is this guy's a creep. And he's like, all of you want us to keep following this lady around and you're a creep.

[Dave Jacoby]

Just.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're this guy, right? Exactly.

[Chris Vernon]

You're also a creep.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's a good point.

[Chris Vernon]

You're really enjoying.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's what I agree with you.

[Chris Vernon]

And he's like flipping it on the viewer, right?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, I think so. But more. But ultimately, when you get to the bottom of that, it's like, if we're all creeps. No one is a creep. I think that's what I think his perspective.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think you're right.

[Chris Vernon]

Purse snatch, beach chase scene, long beach scene.

[Dave Jacoby]

Some incredible movie running in this sequence.

[Sean Fennessy]

Realistic, though, where it's like, if you were running, you'd get tired.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, the hotel is really cool. I like that. All of a sudden, it feels like we're in, like, Italy or Greece or something where it's like the decks. Each deck comes out further than the last one. Somehow he's able to just walk up and listen to her phone call.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not a lot of security.

[Chris Vernon]

She seems non plussed by this guy who's now followed her all the way.

[Dave Jacoby]

She's like, you've been following me all day.

[Chris Vernon]

And then the creepy tunnel. Is this your great shot, Gordo?

[Dave Jacoby]

My great shot, Gordo, is the diopter shot of the two of them at the pay phone. That was. That was from the.

[Chris Vernon]

From the valet over this weird tunnel where it, like.

[Dave Jacoby]

Tunnel's awesome. Yeah, tunnel's cool. And more and more claustrophobia.

[Chris Vernon]

Greg. Greg Henry starts touchdown celebration, hitting him.

[Dave Jacoby]

He's like Kyle Pitts. He's, like, throwing the ball up in the air.

[Chris Vernon]

And then we get the 360 degree makeout scene, which is just ridiculous.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, that's when you're just like, am I having an aneurysm? Like, what's going on?

[Chris Vernon]

Or is this real?

[Sean Fennessy]

But just pure Hitchcock, though, where, like, you're in the middle of a Hitchcock movie and you're following the plot and you're like, okay, this is going along, trying to figure out what's going on here. And then something happens and you're like, what? Yeah, I got it. And it takes a minute for your brain to figure out if you're in a dream sequence or not.

[Chris Vernon]

What's he trying to do with the things going in circles? Well, he does the camera angle. What is it about him in circles?

[Dave Jacoby]

It sweeps. It sweeps up the audience.

[Sean Fennessy]

How does a film reel work?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

The murder scene. Controversial.

[Dave Jacoby]

People were like, it's phallic. He's like, it's a drill. I. I thought it'd be cool.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. He was like, I wanted the drill to be long enough to go through.

[Sean Fennessy]

The floor legitimately on the list of greatest kills in movie history. And you never see the drill go in.

[Chris Vernon]

No.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's so, so funny now that he has to plug it in and that he has to keep plugging the drill in.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Hold on.

[Dave Jacoby]

There's an outlet over here.

[Chris Vernon]

Can you just stay there in the bed?

[Sean Fennessy]

But it's weird because this is an inexplicable plot thing. Why he has the drill, why he's gonna use the drill.

[Dave Jacoby]

He's not like the other move, drilling the satellite.

[Sean Fennessy]

But he originally starts by strangling her with the cord, which is a callback to dial him for murder, which is how the murder happens in that movie. So if he was gonna strangle her, why does he have the drill in that space in this elaborate setup that he's created to murder?

[Chris Vernon]

It's like De Palma wants to just take Hitchcock and just make it super crazy.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's just totally. It's totally satellite. It's great.

[Dave Jacoby]

Like, Hitchcock, mixtape.

[Chris Vernon]

She doesn't run. They both get knocked out, basically, in the bed. And then she just wakes up. She's like, I'm gonna call 911 with my back to him.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. But I'm out of breath.

[Chris Vernon]

This will go great.

[D]

I thought the drill was so he could, like, break into the safe in the house to be a purported robber.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right. But, like, there's that great bit about how drills like that, you can't break into metal. You can only drill wood with an auger bit. You can't actually drill into metal. Like, a cop would know that in five seconds. You can't break into a safe with.

[Dave Jacoby]

A drill that looks like stupid robber. But that's why he had it, I guess.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, De Palma said the drill had to be long for the specific reason that it had to go through the floor and then be long enough going through the floor that it would drip blood.

[Sean Fennessy]

I love the blood dripping. And the white dog on top of him is so fun.

[Chris Vernon]

Great. Job by the dog.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Like borderline Brandy Booth dog performance also.

[Dave Jacoby]

Incredibly possibleTotal in the two biggest scenes of the movie. In Gloria's death and then in the second to last scene.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's right.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Next one, the Sid Goldberg Show. So Jake comes back home and he's like, I'm gonna put in some porn. You're working on Linda Shaw Enterprises. What are some of those enterprises? We have a film, Deep Ghost. Ghost. The Mating Game. The Mating Game. One Night at a time. One night at a time. Yes. And I believe you have a film opening up this week at the Pussy Flick Theater.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Deep Ghost is sick. That's really good.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's also so great because it's. It's her and it's her nipple and stuff. And then it finally pans out and this guy is like this, like, half.

[Chris Vernon]

New dude hardware store. Then he goes, what happens when you get high? And she goes, oh, it makes me want to come. Well, while you're coming, Linda, why don't we watch this clip?

[Dave Jacoby]

That's just. That's just good podcasting. That's a great segue.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a great throw.

[Chris Vernon]

So Sid Goldberg show. He throws to a trailer. A trailer, which was a huge thing in the early 80s, mid-80s, of Holly does Hollywood, which starts out with the guy coming in and going, five minutes, Ms. Body. And she thinks it's like, oh, it's time to do the scene. He's like, like, no, I mean, we have five minutes. It's great. The Pavo is like. You could tell he studied the porn in the 80s for months and months.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

To get all this right. And then they have the trailer, and it's got stuff like Screw magazine says Holly Body keeps his business where it belongs in the gutter.

[Sean Fennessy]

All the quotes are.

[Chris Vernon]

The quotes are so good that I. This whole scene is.

[Dave Jacoby]

This movie goes, like, to the moon once it gets into the porn industry. Like the video store, the trailer, like everything about it, the set, the casting.

[Sean Fennessy]

You mentioned pta, but I mean, there's so much that is pulled out of this that is put into Boogie Nights.

[Chris Vernon]

It's outrageous, this part, especially with Sid Goldberg, who's played by an actor, by the way. There wasn't actually a Sid Goldberg.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, yeah, I figured.

[Chris Vernon]

But Linda Shaw was.

[Sean Fennessy]

She was a real star. Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

There's a couple of porn stars in this movie.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, real porn stars. Tackling all of them.

[Sean Fennessy]

Tackling them.

[Chris Vernon]

Next one is the relaxed porn video, which is just incredible. It was incredible in 1984.

[Sean Fennessy]

So the first time you Saw your react. What did you think was happening?

[Chris Vernon]

So this was the first time I had ever seen somebody correctly take an MTV video and put it in a movie or a TV show in a way that it felt like mtv. And it was an even better version of it. Right. And then Miami Vice started doing it. But this is.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right?

[Chris Vernon]

It was like this body double. Miami Vice, like, were the first two that were like, everything you like about mtv, I'm now gonna put into your movie.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, Relax don't do west when you wanna go to West Relax, don't do west when you wanna come Relax.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's so. It's such an interesting example of the way that De Palma's brain works. Because for a lot of people, if you were like, I want to put a band in my movie. You'd think that they would go like, well, what kind of music do I like? What kind of energy do I want the song to have for the sequence? But he's thinking specifically about, like, the visual filmmaking and what. So he watches MTV for, like, a year.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not with the intention to be like, here's my musical taste. But just to be like, what is a music video? And how could I take my skills and make it even better and make.

[Dave Jacoby]

It into a porno.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right? And make it Laurie. And make it my stuff. And Frankie Goes to Hollywood also was, you know, very sexual as bands, but.

[Chris Vernon]

Nobody knew who the fuck they were until really 1984. So he also had the foresight of being like these guys. Something's here. And this is one of the biggest alternative songs at 84.

[Sean Fennessy]

But that's the perfect song for this sequence.

[Chris Vernon]

I have the Dracula the Musical award for Best Imitation of Real Art, which we rarely get to give out. Putting that here. Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness award by Schneider. No question. Sorry, Pino, if you're going to nitpick. The scene is just too good for our 1984 porn. Yeah. I mean, this would have been the greatest. Would have been the greatest. Most elaborate porn scene ever filmed.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's so funny because it's like De Palma and PTA can't help themselves.

[Sean Fennessy]

No.

[Chris Vernon]

They're just going all in.

[Sean Fennessy]

If they're doing it. It's like, why is there a Norma Desmond impersonator at the beginning of that music video sequence from Sunset Boulevard?

[Chris Vernon]

And then PTA steals the. Yo, where's the cum shot?

[Dave Jacoby]

I know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

After the same thing as Dirk Diggler's first Amber Wave scene. This whole scene is amazing.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's so strange, though. Like, it must. I'm I'm. I'm curious to hear Craig.

[Chris Vernon]

We could go to Craig now, Craig, what'd you think when this. This porn video just dropped?

[Sean Fennessy]

Because, like, you barely grew up with mtv.

[D]

Yeah, not really.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's so crazy.

[D]

I didn't. Well, like, while watching the movie, I. I was like, is this a dream sequence? I didn't quite know what was going on. And then you realized, oh, this is, like, him acting and, like, doing this whole other plot. I don't know, man. I find it to be incredibly entertaining. I think it's something that you don't see. Now. I. I loved it. I found it to be very, very compelling.

[Chris Vernon]

Good answer.

[Sean Fennessy]

Compelling and rich.

[Chris Vernon]

Compelling and rich. Just. Just when you thought the movie couldn't get any better, now Jake is pretending to be a producer and has a date with Holly where she says, I do not do animal acts. I do not do S and M or any variations of that particular bet. No water sports either. I will not shave my pussy. No fist fucking, and absolutely no coming in my face. I get $2,000 a day. I do not work without a contract.

[Dave Jacoby]

And it's like all of Hollywood was.

[Chris Vernon]

Like, yeah, slow clap, slow clap.

[Sean Fennessy]

She delivers it like she's done it 5,000 times.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, it's her spiel.

[Chris Vernon]

Spiel. And he's like, okay, done.

[Dave Jacoby]

And who is your favorite pretending to be a porn producer? Is it Scully, or is it George C. Scott from Harvard?

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, George C. Scott. No question. No question.

[Dave Jacoby]

And do you think Schrader and De Palma, like, were comparing notes?

[Sean Fennessy]

Fist bumps?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, I think De Palma saw the. Jim. Jim. It was like, I gotta take that up a notch. They run into Kimberly Hess. You know, Simon Lafarge is casting his next picture, but that woman, you might want to firm up a little bit. What does that even mean?

[Sean Fennessy]

That woman is a porn star. Right. I think that. I think that actress is a porn star, which is why that's such a clever scene.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, I didn't. That wasn't.

[Sean Fennessy]

Her name is Rebecca Stanley.

[Dave Jacoby]

Wait, the woman who's like, what are you working on?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, my God, that's so funny.

[Chris Vernon]

The Palm.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's great.

[Chris Vernon]

He's fucking with people. And then.

[Dave Jacoby]

Do you have a lot of physical media starring?

[Sean Fennessy]

No, but Rebecca Stanley, if people want to send it to me, I'm willing to receive it.

[Dave Jacoby]

4K restoration.

[Sean Fennessy]

Send it to CR's house.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

And Jake blows it with Holly, for some reason, says he's not a producer, and then she storms out. And that leads to the Reservoir Battle, which is Another possible great shock order award for how they do the coffin.

[Dave Jacoby]

This might be the most nitpicked moment in cinema history for me is just like everything about this. I know you go along with it as the fantasy but the last part is like. You're like what is happening?

[Sean Fennessy]

Sam's whole plan.

[Dave Jacoby]

I just.

[Sean Fennessy]

I have no idea what's going on.

[Dave Jacoby]

Why did he dig a 30 foot grave at the. At the crest of a reservoir. Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's going to erode at some point. Right.

[Chris Vernon]

Same was just a terrible murderer.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

We'll get into that later in nitpicks. Which year are most rewatchable?

[Dave Jacoby]

I think it's probably the casting of him getting cast and then the Frank who goes to Hollywood.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think the scene I've rewatched the most is the Frankie goes to Hollywood scene because it was the video as well. So you saw it all the time growing up. I think the follow is probably my favorite scene in the movie.

[Chris Vernon]

I like everything from when he sees the porn video all the way through to the first date. I think is just elite. But I like this whole movie. It's really hard to pick. And that's it for today's most re watchable scene brought to you by Paramount. Plus from action blockbusters to thrillers to favorite for the whole family. Find something new to watch every week. A mountain of movies awaits on Paramount Plus I don't think they have one day at a time or deep ghost plans. Start at $7.99 a month. Start streaming now. Let's take a break. What's the most 1984 thing about this movie? I would narrow it down to either putting a music video inside the movie or porn video stores that are like.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's porn video stores for me.

[Sean Fennessy]

Being like Power Records almost specifically the adult section of a video store.

[Dave Jacoby]

I also love that he goes up to the one clerk who's like yes, I do have that on multiple formats. Let me take you to it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, but he's kind of annoyed too.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, but he's like I also have like the works of like Visconti over here. But I will take you to go.

[Sean Fennessy]

Get two Italian master references digging in your bag.

[Chris Vernon]

Nico CR Wood. Sage. The best. Young Melanie Griffith just looks great. She's been in our lives now for four decades. But it's really fun to see her in this. And then something wild too. Same thing. You're like, wow.

[Sean Fennessy]

Very similar characters.

[Chris Vernon]

How much Craig Wasland looks like Bill Maher crossed with that has aged Breckenmeyer.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's Aged very well. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Barney's Beanery. Fun, fun.

[Sean Fennessy]

That.

[Chris Vernon]

That's still kicking. All these years later. Linda Shaw finally getting her props.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's about time.

[Chris Vernon]

The Hakeem Olajuwon of 80s porn.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is that. What is that two titles? What are you implying there? I'm just, you know, incredible grace and length.

[Chris Vernon]

Hall of famer, legend and not discuss.

[Dave Jacoby]

Does a retired Linda Shaw have like a big man school? Like where she should?

[Sean Fennessy]

Was she a two way player?

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, just, you know, I feel like she should have been up there with the greats.

[Sean Fennessy]

Who was her? Patrick Ewing?

[Chris Vernon]

Annette Haven, who we'll get to later in this movie, but I thought she should have been up there. Movies where someone walks in on their girlfriend riding a dude. What's the number one for this?

[Dave Jacoby]

I mean, old school is pretty high up there.

[Chris Vernon]

That's a good one.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's really more of like a. That's really more of like a.

[Dave Jacoby]

You know, it's more of like a role play thing too.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Chris Vernon]

Has there ever been a movie where somebody just gets mad and just comes flying in going after the guy? No, actually, everyone always backs up. Yeah, there's nobody ever like, I'm grabbing a bat.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's a really famous example of this. I'm trying to remember what it is.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, sideways has the peeping on them doing it. But not. That's not a walk in.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, like on your. Walking in on your girlfriend. I can't remember what it is. There's a very, very, very famous example of this.

[Dave Jacoby]

This will be a good audience participation thing.

[Chris Vernon]

Feel free to hit us.

[Dave Jacoby]

DM Sean.

[Chris Vernon]

This is for cr. For what stage? The best. Sober people falling off the wagon, ordering multiple drinks from a horrified bartender and saying stuff like, I thought you were a bartender, not a priest.

[Dave Jacoby]

So I guess those guys are friends. But it is incredibly funny when Scully walks in and orders the shot of Jack Daniels. And Doug, who's the like the bartender is just like, I thought she stopped drinking. He's like, what's he doing here at 1pm again?

[Chris Vernon]

What do you think he's here for the tuna then.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you have any active friends who are bartenders who you like, sit down and you're like, ah, it's Steve's here.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. I mean I have not at this point.

[Sean Fennessy]

Now you have a bar back home?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Take that out of the way.

[Dave Jacoby]

I don't own the bar. I mean I was like, just like a big patron.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right. A bar you go to where you have bad brother.

[Dave Jacoby]

I go there all the time.

[Sean Fennessy]

But in la Is there a bar you can walk into and sit down and be like old CR's back. The usual CR.

[Chris Vernon]

Yo. Crazy. What's Liverpool doing?

[Dave Jacoby]

You want to have Margarita? That'll be 27.

[Chris Vernon]

The. My neighbor is stripping music in this. Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is what was used in air, right? Yes, it's that music.

[Chris Vernon]

De Palma did not like it. Coming up later. What do you have for what's edge the best?

[Dave Jacoby]

The Peter Meter.

[Sean Fennessy]

What do you think that was that she did? Was it just that dance? Is there anything else on top of that?

[Chris Vernon]

It's just so great that it was her routine.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But what else is in the root? Is it. It can't just be that dance.

[Chris Vernon]

I think that's her move.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Just dancing.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

Then she does the Bend over. Back up. Does this some more. Bend over again.

[Sean Fennessy]

Roll over.

[Dave Jacoby]

I also really love when Sam is like. I've had some creative differences with the Seattle repertory. Like it's such a bullshit reason. But yeah, those are my too.

[Chris Vernon]

Vampire's Kiss became an actual movie with Nicholas Cage apparently.

[Sean Fennessy]

Apparently titled after this movie, this fake movie.

[Chris Vernon]

Bread East Analysis. American Psycho. This was Patrick Bateman's favorite movie. Talked about it over and over.

[Sean Fennessy]

He rented it 37 times on video cassette.

[Chris Vernon]

Porn actress Holly Body took her stage name from this movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

One of your faves.

[Dave Jacoby]

What a ripple effect.

[Chris Vernon]

Big career for her.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's incredible.

[Chris Vernon]

Dakota Johnson's mom is Melanie Griffith. That's a good stage of. Yeah, she's made some kind of kinky movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

Melanie Griffith's mom is Tippi Hedren, who starred in Hitchcock movies.

[Dave Jacoby]

An incredible lineage.

[Chris Vernon]

And honestly, it's the best.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, this movie as a standalone, being a flop and then becoming literally one of the most influential movies of the 1980s. I think on a generation of filmmakers and on a generation of extremely horny dudes who don't have access to porn. Like that's straight up.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. I also think just self applying three and a half hours of makeup to become the Indian must be really high up there. What's the age of them?

[Sean Fennessy]

I would say the Indian has not aged well.

[Chris Vernon]

Fortune 3 Clap Award for most gifable moment. Probably CR doing his imitation of Craig was claustrophobia.

[Sean Fennessy]

The Peter Meter routine is very giftful.

[Chris Vernon]

Great. Shotgun would recover. So Den at Thebes. Benny Hahn award for scene stealing. Location is obviously the house. It's called the Chemisphere. Located just off Mulholland Drive in Hollywood Hills. Once described by Encyclopedia Britannica as the most modern home built in the world. Built in 1960 by architect John Lautner. I have no idea how much it's worth now. Seems like a pretty weird place to live.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought it was on sale for, like, 1.5 in the 2010s.

[Dave Jacoby]

They. They. Did you see that the Elliott Gould apartment from Long Go by was for sale? I did, but it's actually kind of beat up a little bit. Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

This was a couple years ago.

[Chris Vernon]

The best thing that's ever been for sale, and I have a lot of regrets, is the Boogie Nights house.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Is that.

[Chris Vernon]

No, it was in.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's further away. Right.

[Dave Jacoby]

Inland Empire, kind of.

[Chris Vernon]

It was going toward where Zoe used to play soccer.

[Dave Jacoby]

Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

I forget.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, you thought.

[Chris Vernon]

It's like 35 minutes.

[Sean Fennessy]

You seriously thought about it?

[Chris Vernon]

Well, we thought about. Could we just. This is when we're on our own. Could we just film ringer videos from the Boogie Nights house? And then we realized how stupid that was. Yeah. I'm ready to shoot, Bill.

[D]

It's in Covina.

[Chris Vernon]

It's West Covina. The Butch's Girlfriend award wing link of the film CR mentioned it earlier. The reservoir ending is just ridiculous.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

It's like they kind of ran out of time and they were like, ah. Did you come up with them? I didn't.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's when someone on set or the screenwriter or somebody needed to, like, grab BDP and just be like, hey, man. Like, this is gonna look cool, but makes no sense.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

He says that the location scout found this spot and he was like, what do you think of this spot? And he was like, that's cool. I wanna do something there. So they basically bend the movie around, finding this reservoir. That's just cinema ahead of story. That's kind of how he thinks.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. And it also turns. That's where the movie sort of like, detaches from reality. Because Jake has the sort of weird dream sequence where he's telling off Ruben, but it has not yet been rehired. Then he climbs out of a seemingly bottomless grave that this guy has been digging. It's just a very strange moment. The white flash of the back, like, for a second there.

[Sean Fennessy]

But some of the staging, especially the dog breaking out of the car and jumping on Sam is like, awesome. It's a great little action sequence.

[Dave Jacoby]

Tough beat for the dog.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I think it's the same dog. I think he said this from the Sam Fuller movie White Dog, which is about a racist dog. A dog that is trained to be racist. I don't know if you guys have seen that movie. White Dog.

[Chris Vernon]

The dog lives. Dog lives.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, it does.

[Chris Vernon]

In my mind, it does. All dogs live.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a beautiful dog.

[Chris Vernon]

I think Sam died, but the dog.

[Dave Jacoby]

But the dog just swam off to freedom.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sam can't swim. What's the. What's the story there?

[Dave Jacoby]

Quite a distance.

[Chris Vernon]

Reservoirs are tough. It's a lot of holes. What stage the worst? Mention the acting class teacher calling the killer the Indian throughout the movie. Probably not getting away with that anymore. Not enough cocaine for me. I needed. Needed somebody doing some bumps somewhere. Maybe in the Barney Beanery bar.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's a very chaste porn environment where nobody seems to be high. They're all.

[Chris Vernon]

Everybody's the porn set. I just feel like cocaine is everywhere when they're filming this movie. And to pretend it wasn't was a weird choice.

[Sean Fennessy]

Linda Shaw seems a little disassociated during her scene.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, no question. And then, like, Jake not having sex with Holly and just spilling the beans. Still don't understand that plan. Might have brought it up. Maybe during coffee the next day.

[Dave Jacoby]

Hey, you know what?

[Sean Fennessy]

But that's the whole point of his character, right?

[Dave Jacoby]

He's the loser.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. What do you have anything?

[Dave Jacoby]

I wish I had a mug with me. But the way that Jake drinks coffee at the farmers market is like this. He puts the backstage, like the theater guy down. He just goes like this.

[Chris Vernon]

Like he's drinking soup.

[Dave Jacoby]

And it's like, this guy needs to get cheated on more.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, Jake sucks.

[Dave Jacoby]

Like, it's so annoying.

[Chris Vernon]

There should have been two guys in that bedroom.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think that for as idiosyncratic as it is, and with no disrespect to him, this Craig wasn't whole vibe is probably why this film is not as popular as it possibly could have been. Cause it's just like, that's a very difficult character to spend two hours with. Like his performance.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's part of it. I think there's also just like a surreal satirical tone that's pretty hard to wrap your head around if you don't already want to be like, look at naked Melanie Griffith. Or whatever other draws the movie might.

[Dave Jacoby]

The other thing that's aged the worst is just Sam's conspiracy plan. Like, what was he. He seems like he did the most complicated version of killing your wife.

[Chris Vernon]

I have a lot of nitpicks for this later.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think also what's aged the worst is dating this movie to come out the same day as the Terminator.

[Chris Vernon]

Is that true?

[Sean Fennessy]

And a significant actor in that Movie passed on this movie reportedly to do the Terminator. Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

We could get it out.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Yeah. Ruffalo, Hannah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Rubbish. October 26, 1984 Ruffalo, Hannah.

[Chris Vernon]

Rubinick Partridge overacting word they knew and.

[D]

They let it happen.

[Dave Jacoby]

Don't you call me lady. I come in here, I give these things to you.

[Chris Vernon]

Give me all you got.

[Dave Jacoby]

Listen.

[Chris Vernon]

Give me all you got.

[Dave Jacoby]

I treated you like a son.

[Chris Vernon]

You fucking stabbed me in the heart.

[Sean Fennessy]

Fuck you.

[Chris Vernon]

Fuck you.

[Dave Jacoby]

You.

[Chris Vernon]

I'm going with the police detective who gives Jake shit after the murder. So you're supposed to tell me, like, what is that? Come on, Scully, tell the truth. You her and you kept him for a souvenir.

[Dave Jacoby]

No.

[Sean Fennessy]

No. What?

[Chris Vernon]

No, you didn't her.

[Sean Fennessy]

No.

[Chris Vernon]

You didn't keep him as a no.

[Sean Fennessy]

To both of them.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, maybe you're just a harmless panty sniffer. Is that it? You got a dirty mind? That's a laugh. You peep on her, you follow her, you fuck her, you keep her little panties as a memento and then you take a seat on the 50 yard line to watch her video around.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's not what happened.

[Chris Vernon]

I tried to save her. What performance is that?

[Sean Fennessy]

Doesn't it seem though, like he is a cop in a Hitchcock movie from 1942.

[Dave Jacoby]

You're a peeper. In my book, that's a pervert and a sex offender. It's like, okay, thanks for the definition.

[Chris Vernon]

He's. It's just a weird. What do you call two bad actors?

[Dave Jacoby]

It's so funny because like the guy is just like, oh yeah, Scully, what's that? And like he just tells him the whole plot of like. It's so weird.

[Chris Vernon]

I. I almost would have had. Rather had like Leslie Nielsen as the cop.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

And just had somebody who was kind of like secretly funny. Was there a better title for this movie? No way. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford hottest take award. What do you have? CR?

[Dave Jacoby]

I think if I'm Jake after my first two days in the porn industry, I just stay like. I just think that that's like the growth industry for him. He's never. He's already doing on camera feature work pornography after one audition. Like he could have been the Harrison Ford of 80s porn.

[Chris Vernon]

Got to work on the cum shots.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

He may have to work on the cum shots.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. But I thought that pulling out aiming just a lot of stuff, that it's an art form. Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

And if he has to do a cum shot in any kind of tight space, who knows how the claustrophobia Kicks in. But I thought he seemed like a natural and he should have stuck with it.

[D]

And now he's got the chemisphere to shoot in.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, right.

[Dave Jacoby]

Exactly.

[D]

All time porn set.

[Sean Fennessy]

Very true. My hottest take is confirmation that I will never be running for a public office. But I think we should be having unsimulated sex in movies. In movies, like I really think if the actors want to do that, that's gonna make the movie more interesting.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's weird that that's still like the final frontier.

[Sean Fennessy]

It is the last thing you can't do.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. A couple like really Terrifier 3 can happen.

[Sean Fennessy]

Which is way crazy in terms of what is portrayed.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, think about the Chloe Sevign piece of this.

[Sean Fennessy]

The Brown bunny.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. I mean that basically ruined her career for a couple years.

[Sean Fennessy]

She's back. She's back.

[Chris Vernon]

But that was also 20 plus years.

[Sean Fennessy]

That was considered the most transgressive thing that a famous person could do in a movie pretty much ever. There's the rumors about don't look now, for example, that Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie were having sex in that scene. And unconfirmed. And there have been some suggestions over the years that there are some scenes where the actors are having sex. I'm sure that's true.

[Chris Vernon]

They always said that with Alec Baldwin and Kim. Basically Singer. Didn't we do a re. Were basically like Teen Wolf.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

They said Michael J. Fox with the wolf costume. One of the actress was like, I gotta get in on that.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Was unsim. Did he have a wolf unsimulated?

[Dave Jacoby]

Holy.

[Chris Vernon]

Phil, I'm. I'm with you on this.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thank you.

[Chris Vernon]

It is the last frontier here. My hottest take. It's mild. I think this is the best integration of the porn world into a mainstream movie ever. This just how they do it. It's not the whole movie. We just dip into this for 15 minutes and every beat of it is absolutely perfect. Including Sid Goldberg and that whole show.

[Dave Jacoby]

And we're out. It's like he has mastered that idiom.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's so good.

[Chris Vernon]

It's a whole separate movie in the movie. Which are sometimes my favorite movies where it's like. Like this. We're in this whole world for 15 minutes. I'm like, this is. Let's go. Let's go into this world. This is cool.

[Sean Fennessy]

Boogie Nights.

[Chris Vernon]

Boogie Nights.

[Dave Jacoby]

Hardcore.

[Sean Fennessy]

Hardcore. Zack and Miriam make a porno wonderland.

[Dave Jacoby]

Right?

[Sean Fennessy]

Wonderland.

[Chris Vernon]

Eight millimeter.

[Sean Fennessy]

Eight millimeter orgasm. Specific kind of the Trey Parker Matt Stone movie. What are some other movies that are set in the world of porn. There's more.

[Chris Vernon]

Zach and whatever. Yeah. That one was awful.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Kevin, there's really not that many.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's a couple more that I'm forgetting. People versus Larry Flynt. Sure. It's kind of like that.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Casting what ifs? De Palma thought about. There's been a lot of, like, conflicting research about this, but he thought about a very famous porn star named Annette Haven to play Holly Body and met her, spent a lot of times with her, gave her stuff to read, spent.

[Sean Fennessy]

A lot of times with her.

[Chris Vernon]

He said she'd never been given lines. I sort of sent her to acting school. I videotaped her doing long interviews. Some of the things she said were put into Holly Bodies dialogue. I ultimately tested her, and the only other girl I wanted to play the part was Melanie Griffith. Melanie Blood out of the sky. Then De Palma says, strangely enough, Annette wasn't that sexy. But I used Annette to give us advice while we were shooting the film.

[Sean Fennessy]

Annette Haven, also a huge influence on Boogie Nights and appears in Boogie Nights.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. It seems like the directors loved her. And then when they met her, they. They were like, eh.

[Sean Fennessy]

I get the impression she was just very smart and a great comedian.

[Chris Vernon]

Very smart, like kind of low energy, which for a movie like this you needed. One of the great things about Holly Body is she's so funny and quirky.

[Dave Jacoby]

Sure. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

So he then offered the role to Linda Hamilton, who turned it down and did Terminator instead. What a fucking what if? That is crazy.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sliding door. Crazy one. Could Melanie Griffith have been in the Terminator?

[Dave Jacoby]

Jesus.

[Chris Vernon]

Wow.

[Sean Fennessy]

Probably not, but maybe.

[Dave Jacoby]

But yeah, like, it's like, I don't think I would have thought of Linda Hamilton as, like. As Sarah Connor before that. You know what I mean?

[Sean Fennessy]

Exactly. And you think of. When you hear Sarah Connor, you think of T2 and when she's all jacked. But she's not like that.

[Dave Jacoby]

No, she's like a waitress or something. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

It's a good sliding doors for Linda Hamilton's career. Because if she's in this movie first, I don't know what happens after that.

[Sean Fennessy]

She might go away.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, They. I think it all played out correctly.

[Dave Jacoby]

The Jamie Lee Curtis story is like that. He basically asked Melanie Griffith to introduce him to Jamie Lee Curtis. Jamie Lee Curtis says no. And Melanie Griffith is like, well, why don't you just let me read for it? Right.

[Chris Vernon]

There's. Yeah, there's her. Carrie Fisher, Tatum O'Neal were, like, considered.

[Dave Jacoby]

Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

But who knows? As we know with the casting what ifs as the years pass they just start throwing names.

[Dave Jacoby]

Everybody in this town was like.

[Chris Vernon]

Diane Lane looked at it like, you just never know what.

[Sean Fennessy]

Carrie Fisher has a very different energy from Melanie Griffith. But she does have the Holly body attitude. You know, like smart, cynical. Yeah, you know, that would have been interesting.

[Chris Vernon]

It's actually kind of the role she should have done after the three Star wars movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

Something to break the archetype.

[Chris Vernon]

Because you'll always wonder if she had.

[Dave Jacoby]

Done that if like she. Is she ever in another in the sequel Star wars movies?

[Chris Vernon]

I think the start the sequels were done though.

[Dave Jacoby]

No, I mean the ones that just. That she did at the end of.

[Sean Fennessy]

She sully is her reputation. I don't know. She made some weird movies after Star.

[Chris Vernon]

Wars because I think she should have made movies like this. I think she was a way more interesting actress than the movie she picked.

[Sean Fennessy]

I totally agree.

[Chris Vernon]

De Palma really wanted Sylvia Cristel for the role of Gloria Ravel, who played Emmanuel in all those movies.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Pretty big softcore porn actress.

[Dave Jacoby]

Speaking of European erotic thrillers unavailable.

[Chris Vernon]

And then speaking of her in the Golden Globus documentary, which I watched for.

[Sean Fennessy]

Over the Top was Loving you and Kyle praising that doc. I love that doc.

[Chris Vernon]

But they have a whole set be a Christelle section about how she had like a drinking problem and was like messed up on the set. So I don't know if that would work for Gloria. And then they, they. Helen Shaver's dubbing the lines for Deborah Shelton as we discussed real life porn actions of the movie. The great Linda Shaw, Alexandra Day, Carol Lot, Melissa Scott, Barbara Peckinpah and Annette Haven. And then Stephen Bower as a cameo as a male porn actor. Also in the big scene, is it.

[Dave Jacoby]

Michael Kearns, the guy who's like, I'm not just a stunt?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

That guy's actually a porn actor too.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's your favorite porn actor.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Hey, we never get to give this one out either. The Clint Howard Award for director loves this guy. Dennis Franz and the Palma. Five straight films together.

[Sean Fennessy]

What about Greg Henry?

[Chris Vernon]

Greg Henry, first of five with the Palma. I was thinking if I was famous Director, I would 100% do this. I would have like my five or six.

[Sean Fennessy]

Gotta have your guys.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, yeah, my guys, my ladies. It would be like, oh, yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Chino De Niro and then Joe House.

[Sean Fennessy]

So many of my favorite directors do this.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, Preston Sturges does this. Or you have your troupe. You have your four or five people know how to do this.

[Chris Vernon]

Chris Guest did this.

[D]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

PTA's kind of done this.

[Sean Fennessy]

Absolutely. Scorsese has guys that he goes back to over and over again. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Best that guy award. Is Greg Henry that guy, or is he Greg Henry?

[Dave Jacoby]

I think that this the number three.

[Chris Vernon]

Guy in this movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

If you're a De Palma fan, he's Greg fucking Henry.

[Chris Vernon]

I think he's Greg Henry.

[Sean Fennessy]

If you don't know De Palma movies, you're like, that's the guy from the Thing that I can't.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. So what do you think it is about him that De Palma is so.

[Chris Vernon]

Attracted to that he looks like John Tesh.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's. I think he's.

[Dave Jacoby]

Cooking today. I like this.

[Sean Fennessy]

He almost always plays a very untrustworthy guy.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, a guy who's, like, really kind of slow. And I think DePalman needs those guys in his movies.

[Chris Vernon]

He was the kind of guy, when I was growing up, would have been the guy on Charlie's Angels who got involved with Cheryl Ladd in the first half hour. But then it turned out he was the bad guy. Like, he had that. There was just specific actors who just got pigeonholed as those guys. My vote for best that guy is Larry Flash Jenkins, who was in season three of the White Shadow. He was in Fletch as the guy with George Went who was involved in the drug scheme.

[Dave Jacoby]

He's the guy up on.

[Chris Vernon]

He's just in a lot of these movies. And he plays Dennis Franz's, like, assistant director Dion Waiter's award. I mean, Barbara Crampton is another one. Who that guy Crampton?

[Dave Jacoby]

Crampton's look that, like, just kills Scully.

[Sean Fennessy]

But she's not a that guy.

[Dave Jacoby]

No. For Dion.

[Sean Fennessy]

For Dion.

[Chris Vernon]

Okay, let me give you all the nominees. Dennis Fr's eligible.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

Frankie from Frankie Goes to Hollywood.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yep.

[Chris Vernon]

Linda Shaw, the body double in the end credits, or my choice for winner, porn video host Sid Goldberg.

[Dave Jacoby]

Goldberg's a good shot.

[Sean Fennessy]

I like Goldberg. I did not know that man's name. You made it sound like he was, like, a legend in the industry. I never heard that.

[Dave Jacoby]

I did not make it sound like that.

[Sean Fennessy]

They were like, that's Sid Goldberg.

[Dave Jacoby]

I have the box set.

[Chris Vernon]

And I believe you have a film opening this week at the Pussy Flick Theater. Sid Goldberg. If they're deleted, seeds of Sid Goldberg, send them my way, please.

[Dave Jacoby]

Can you imagine being like, you know, like, hey, can I get you a coffee? It's like, shh. Goldberg's on.

[Chris Vernon]

Yes.

[Dave Jacoby]

I gotta find out what's opening at the Pussy Flick.

[Chris Vernon]

They used to have. Remember I told you guys about wht that was like the HBO and how there were movies that were on and they would be first run movies. They used to have at 11 o'clock. They used to have a porn talk show hosted by. I think it was Gloria Leonard maybe was her name.

[Dave Jacoby]

Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

And she would just have guests on and they would have. It was basically like Johnny Carson with porn and the people come on and they would talk about their movie. They would play a clip which was like heavily edited because they weren't allowed to show actual porn. But it was. I think that's what they were ripping off with these.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, there was a. There was a public access show like this with a blonde porn actress who affected a kind of like Carson of porn. I can't remember her name, but it was also a call in show.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, so you could be like, hey.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And she would take calls.

[Dave Jacoby]

Sean from Long Island.

[Sean Fennessy]

I can't remember her name. She's a legend too.

[Chris Vernon]

Well then Playboy channels had night calls. Yeah, she was the 90s version of that recasting couch. Director City. What about Kathleen Turner as Gloria? Perfect time of his career. You don't have to dub her voice. The camera could just watch her walking around.

[Sean Fennessy]

Would have worked well, I guess there's.

[Chris Vernon]

The Body Heat kind of tie in, which is maybe. No, but she's like man with two boots.

[Dave Jacoby]

But it is.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean like I was going to say Romancing the Stone is like this year. Right.

[Dave Jacoby]

Do you think that if you had like whatever happened with this, with this actress, like do you think if you had a different actress, like this character would have more to do and have more to say?

[Chris Vernon]

No, I think she looks beautiful, which she does. But then you need the voice, which obviously shouldn't have Tony Romo or Chris Collinsworth or someone else for the director's commentary I got for Doris. Okay.

[Dave Jacoby]

I see you, Mr. Scully, or should I say Mr. Cuck, coming off your nightmare season of acute panic attacks and finding your girlfriend Carol Reining another man. You've put in the work. You peeped on a woman solar underwear and watched her get murdered by her own husband dressed as a deformed Native American. Now you're here on the set of a Holly Body porno being escorted to a Fuck session by 80s New Romantic Legends. Frankie Goes to Hollywood. Salute to you, Jake.

[Chris Vernon]

And what do you think, Richard Jefferson? I'm running Ruko back. Can a 40 inch electric drill completely oblivious. Eight Gloria Ravel's torso. You bet. I texted with Ruko by the way. He's fired up.

[Sean Fennessy]

I assume.

[Chris Vernon]

Did you text Doris Ruko texted me. He's like, this is great.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is a huge.

[Dave Jacoby]

We found out about this.

[Chris Vernon]

I was like, we need you, Beth, to get to where bang is.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, Light pole.

[Chris Vernon]

Got it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Some of your best work.

[Chris Vernon]

Half hazard at Research Church. LA locations. Tale of the Pup, Beverly Center. Was the Beverly center in this or just the parking part of Beverly Center?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know.

[Chris Vernon]

I don't remember seeing the Beverly Center. I don't know. It's allegedly in there. Barney's Beanery, Farmer's Market, Rodeo Collection, Hollywood Tower, Crossroads Tower Records, and the Chemist Ferris.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is that actually Tower? It doesn't look like the tower to me. It just looks like a video store exterior.

[Chris Vernon]

I think there were a couple Tower Records out here.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I would probably go with the chemosphere.

[Chris Vernon]

As the most LA location. The set for the Frankie Goes to Hollywood sequence was used the next year for the nightclub scene in Fright Night.

[Sean Fennessy]

I just watched it yesterday. That's so funny. That scene is amazing too. I love Fright Night. That's a rewatchable to me. That's such a great movie.

[Dave Jacoby]

I actually like the remake of that too.

[Sean Fennessy]

They're both good.

[Chris Vernon]

Some of the artsy fartsy writing about this movie said how voyeurism provides an illusory imaginative form of control, which Jake had lost because he was emasculated and cucked. So now you have to watch to gain your control.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did they use the word cucked in that piece of literary criticism?

[Chris Vernon]

I threw that in.

[Dave Jacoby]

No, that was Doris Burke.

[Chris Vernon]

Doris the B. Jake's car. 1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS, converted convertible.

[Dave Jacoby]

Were you ever a jump into the car guy?

[Chris Vernon]

No.

[Dave Jacoby]

Have you ever tried that?

[Chris Vernon]

No. It's super dangerous.

[Dave Jacoby]

I wish I could do it. I mean, I don't have a convertible right now, but forever you should just.

[Sean Fennessy]

Jump into a stranger's convertible.

[Dave Jacoby]

Some guy going back from the Dodgers parade just jumping.

[Chris Vernon]

De Palma is upset that there's a rumor about that he had women coming up to his house for months and months masturbating for him as he tried to find Holly body. That was a persistent rumor after the film.

[Dave Jacoby]

And how did he express his disappointment?

[Chris Vernon]

He said this rumor went on for decades. It was ridiculous. The only girl who really came up to my house was Annette when we worked on the material together. And Melanie, who worked with Annette to work on the masturbating at the window routine that I basically worked on in my house on the hill.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's just work.

[Chris Vernon]

I would go outside with a camera and let Melanie Just go through her routine that Annette has taught her. This rumor went on for decades. Kids, it's a rumor that never dies. Eh, I'm still not. Maybe three, four more people went up there. Who knows?

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a great way to get an interesting reputation to be like, God, this rumor has been following me around. Women want to come up to my apartment and masturbate.

[Dave Jacoby]

Goddess being like, why do you guys think I want to be traded to Miami? Stop bringing it up.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, Definitely not to Miami.

[Chris Vernon]

What? What's wrong with Houston? Not that I'd want to go there.

[Dave Jacoby]

Why do you guys keep reporting? I don't like Dame.

[Chris Vernon]

The. The videotape of Melanie Griffith's bedroom jewelry masturbation test audition was destroyed at her request because the Palm had kept it.

[Dave Jacoby]

Classic.

[Chris Vernon]

Hey, can you get rid of that?

[Sean Fennessy]

Or so she thinks.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

When we see our archive.

[Chris Vernon]

Here it is. Apex Mountain. Craig Wasson, Death of Lulu. Oh, my God. God.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. This is, like, first line of his obituary.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. With all due respect, his grandkids are like, grandpa. You were in Body Double with Brian De Palma?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. He's 70 years old. Is he still acting? I. I like.

[Chris Vernon]

He's a big audiobook narrator. Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, that's cool.

[Chris Vernon]

Maybe we'll have to work with him.

[Sean Fennessy]

Good pivot.

[Chris Vernon]

Melanie Griffith. Apex Mountain. I'm going to say working girl.

[Sean Fennessy]

I agree.

[Chris Vernon]

DePalma.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, that's probably Scarface.

[Chris Vernon]

It's in the blowout.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's Untouchables.

[Chris Vernon]

Right?

[Dave Jacoby]

Untouchable.

[Chris Vernon]

Untouchables.

[Dave Jacoby]

Like, isn't that like.

[Sean Fennessy]

I feel like Scarface was a bigger movie.

[Dave Jacoby]

Was it?

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought so. Carrie, too is obviously huge.

[Dave Jacoby]

Fuck the fucking Diaz brothers. Is that what you said?

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's got to be Scarface because it gets him the three picture deal that lets him make Body Double.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's good.

[Chris Vernon]

When we do Scarface, that's when the feed is over. Used to be Boogie Nights.

[Sean Fennessy]

What do you mean?

[Chris Vernon]

No, I'm just saying. I used to say it was Boogie Nights. Now it's Scarface.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, because we're going to method pod.

[Chris Vernon]

The Scarface will be. That'll be seven hours.

[Sean Fennessy]

Giant mountain of cocaine right here on the table.

[Chris Vernon]

Huge cocaine right there.

[Dave Jacoby]

But we'll be like, Brian De Palma. Be like, I'm not on cocaine.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm just interested in these worlds.

[Chris Vernon]

Only one person masturbated for me.

[Dave Jacoby]

Stop putting the rumor out that I'm podcasting while high on cocaine.

[Chris Vernon]

80S porn and movies. Definitely. Greg Henry. What is it for him? I think it's this I think it's this.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is the most critical role he's had in a movie.

[Chris Vernon]

Frankie Goes to Hollywood, definitely. I mean, this is their songs coming out.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think they're pretty big.

[Chris Vernon]

But this movie, they're on snl, like the start of the next season. The album's out. It's somewhere in 84.

[Dave Jacoby]

Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

This is it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Their song, the Power of Love just played a big part in that movie, all of Us Strangers last year, and it was the first time I'd heard of Frankie. Ghost Hollywood song that wasn't relaxed in like 20 years.

[Dave Jacoby]

I remember that.

[Sean Fennessy]

That was just putting that out there. Have you seen all of Us Strangers?

[Chris Vernon]

Who's in that one?

[Sean Fennessy]

Paul Mescal, Andrew Scott. I have a really good bit about that movie that I'll share with you off mic.

[Dave Jacoby]

Did you save it for the Scarface pod?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, I almost did. For my hottest take that Frankie Goes to Hollywood and Queen were a lot closer than people want to admit.

[Sean Fennessy]

In terms of the quality of their work.

[Dave Jacoby]

We mean pure popularity.

[Chris Vernon]

And in terms of the ceiling of how good they were. I was workshopping and I couldn't quite get there.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is that complimentary to Frankie Goes to Hollywood or derogatory about Queens?

[Dave Jacoby]

It's the latter.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, just that I think Relax is as good as any Queen song.

[Dave Jacoby]

I'm not a huge fan of either, but I. I think that there are some queens.

[Sean Fennessy]

Like, I think Queen is incredible. So I don't know.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, that's why. That's why I didn't do it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

That's why I brunch shopped it and decided not to go with it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, there's some. I. I mean, now cocaine is something that they have in common, I think. I think there was a lot of cocaine involved there. I was listening to, like a late period Queen album the other day, and you could hear the cocaine in front of Mercury's throat. Like, it's crazy.

[Chris Vernon]

Telescopes. Telescopes in a movie.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, telescopes. Rotating beds.

[Chris Vernon]

Rotating beds is a good one.

[Sean Fennessy]

Jeez.

[Chris Vernon]

Cheesy acting class scenes.

[Sean Fennessy]

Barry.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[D]

Austin Powers. Rotating bed.

[Sean Fennessy]

Good one.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Body double scenes that are outgoing about how it's a body double scene.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, outgoing.

[Dave Jacoby]

What did she say? Like, my breasts are very tender.

[Sean Fennessy]

My period.

[Chris Vernon]

She also looks different than the. Like, her skin color is different than the other girl, too.

[Sean Fennessy]

I feel like that's part of the joke. Right?

[Dave Jacoby]

Crazy.

[Chris Vernon]

Cool out. LA housing is used as a character in a movie. What's been better than this?

[Dave Jacoby]

I think he's better.

[Sean Fennessy]

Greenberg.

[Chris Vernon]

Greenberg. Who the fuck's Seen Greenberg.

[Sean Fennessy]

What do you mean?

[Chris Vernon]

What are you talking about?

[Sean Fennessy]

Who the fuck seen Greenberg?

[Chris Vernon]

It came and went in five minutes.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's a liked movie. What do you mean?

[Chris Vernon]

Greenberg?

[Sean Fennessy]

Greenberg heads visit Bill Simmons.

[Dave Jacoby]

Are they good houses come through.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, the house that he likes, he stays in. He's house sitting. That's the whole premise of Greenberg.

[Chris Vernon]

Cruz or Hanks? We're thinking Hanks.

[Sean Fennessy]

Guys.

[Dave Jacoby]

Wait.

[Chris Vernon]

No, I. Greenberg.

[Sean Fennessy]

Noah Baumbach movie. Ben Stiller.

[Chris Vernon]

It's fine.

[Dave Jacoby]

Cruiser Hanks.

[Chris Vernon]

It's Hanks.

[Dave Jacoby]

Both. One is the Indian, one is Jake, who plays who.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, a tie.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

So Hanks plays Sam Bouchard slash, the Indian.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. Or Cruz. I could see Cruz being.

[Chris Vernon]

I'm sorry, Cruz plays it. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I think Cruz has to be Sam in the Indian.

[Dave Jacoby]

Cause you could see Cruz being like, hey, small. Worst small town. We keep popping up at these auditions together, you know?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, the, like, slick, smarmy thing Cruz could do.

[Chris Vernon]

Hanks is definitely the Craig Wasp. Yeah, I think he would have done that.

[Sean Fennessy]

I agree.

[Chris Vernon]

So who wins that one then? Craig Hanks.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[D]

Hanks is the lead.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Racehorse, Rock band, wrestler. Fantasy team name. Holly does Hollywood as a racehorse. I don't know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Water sports.

[Dave Jacoby]

Water sports, that's right.

[Chris Vernon]

Let's. We'll take one more break, and then we gotta pick a lot of nets. Pick a nets. Jake is so dumb that he can't figure out his girlfriend's another guy in her room for 75 seconds, but yet he can piece together this elaborate murder pot. I just wanted to start there.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, I mean, that whole opening sequence where Jake should at least be picking up on the vibes that he might not be asked back to the set after ruining the shot. And yet he's like, I think I'll just get hot dogs and just go back to my cool girlfriend. It's like Carol and Jake.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's tough when your character is a total dipshit. Cause then any of the plot holes, you're like, oh, well, he's a loser.

[Chris Vernon]

Right. But then he somehow figures it out in five seconds. What do you have? Cause I have a lot of nitpicks.

[Dave Jacoby]

I mean, the biggest one is just, like. Is Sam's plan and just how elaborate it requires tons of makeup, multiple cars, multiple. Like, he has the one house that Gloria is living in, and he has the Sinosphere or whatever, this roundhouse that he's also able to work out of. So it's just like. It just seems there was a much straighter line to killing your wife.

[Chris Vernon]

I wrote Sam Bouchard rich guy pretending he's an actor to set up a murder. Should I start doing this? Should I just start going to acting classes and looking for my prey?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, that's right.

[Chris Vernon]

And I'll get makeup.

[Sean Fennessy]

You really. You lifted the veil there. That was good. I think there's like you could break down each step though because. So he wants to have a witness. So he wants someone to see him kill his wife, but think it somebody else. It has to be a good enough costume that they think it's someone else. This is one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard of. He is going to be witnessed killing someone and the first time you see him as the Indian, you're like, that's Greg Henry. The minute you see him, that's clearly the guy we just saw. So even in the unreality of the movie, it's the dumbest plan of all time.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

He would have been better off telling his wife that he also owned the Chemisphere. Telling her to come up for a drink and then just shoving her down the stairs, being like she fell.

[Dave Jacoby]

She was Drun Nicola didn't work.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. So Alan, his. He was saying how Alan the cool house owner who's letting Sam house sit there, but he had to leave for five weeks and he had to find somebody. He's leaving tomorrow. So if he didn't find anyone, like nobody watering the plants.

[Dave Jacoby]

Premise of the, like they go to Barney's. Is he like waiting for. I guess he already knows Jake's looking for a place because he hears him in the first audition being like, oh, you got anything right?

[Chris Vernon]

How about this? Was he the one fucking his girlfriend?

[Dave Jacoby]

I wondered about that for a second before. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Where is Gloria when Holly Body is just dancing in her living room?

[Dave Jacoby]

Great question.

[Chris Vernon]

Bedroom at night.

[Dave Jacoby]

At night, shopping for underwear? I have no idea.

[Sean Fennessy]

Great question. Maybe she's at the beach house.

[Chris Vernon]

Could you figure out how to have somebody in your bedroom at 9pm every night? Be like, Eileen, could you. Could you go in the. In the, in the TV room from 9 to 9:30?

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, it's just all also like. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

It's absurd.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Do they have.

[Chris Vernon]

She's there the next morning. So where the fuck Was she at 9 o'clock?

[Sean Fennessy]

That's a good point. Well, maybe she has a social life.

[Dave Jacoby]

Who's Gloria call, like from the payphone when she's like, I have to see you. He hit me again, like, who's she talking to?

[Sean Fennessy]

Presumably someone she's having an affair with, which is maybe one of the reasons why he's killing her.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, wow.

[Chris Vernon]

Need a little more details on that. Jake kept Gloria's underpants in his pocket for 10 hours. He went home, kept him in there.

[Dave Jacoby]

He basically wears one outfit for the entire movie.

[Chris Vernon]

He does. He's dressed like a substitute teacher.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, he is.

[Chris Vernon]

So Alexander Ravel's scheme of killing his wife, pretending someone else did it, but also pretending to be Sam Bouchard, the barely working actor. Wouldn't they have written about this in a newspaper?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Wouldn't there have been a picture of her and her husband?

[Dave Jacoby]

And wouldn't anybody have been like, that's the guy from our acting class.

[Chris Vernon]

Would Jake have maybe seen his picture? Like, wasn't there a risk of Jake seeing the picture of the husband?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Vernon]

All right. This is a big one. Is getting into porn in 1984. Was it really that easy? You just get to be the lead actor in a holiday movie. Question about this One second.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. It's like you just walk into an audition and even in hardcore, like, Jim.

[Chris Vernon]

Jackson had to kind of work for.

[Sean Fennessy]

He put in the hours. He was in the minor leagues for a while. I'm going to go the other way. I think that you could do it.

[Chris Vernon]

You just walk in. But they're making so much porn back then.

[Sean Fennessy]

If you have the tools necessary.

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, because he's got a familiarity with the audition process. How to call a production office, probably. Right. So he's got a little bit of a foot inside the door. And maybe there's a lot of intimidation out there. Maybe people weren't like, oh, yeah, I could just step right into this.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think if you're equipped. Equipped? Yeah, properly.

[Dave Jacoby]

Well, this is a huge unanswerable question. Is, was, was Jake packing?

[Chris Vernon]

I mean, everything about him, the first.

[Sean Fennessy]

10 minutes, everything about him tells us no. And yet he feels very comfortable in this environment.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, yeah. How is Sam's makeup as the Indian this good?

[Dave Jacoby]

Or was it. Who's applying it, though?

[Chris Vernon]

They said to do the makeup.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's like a paper mache head.

[Chris Vernon]

They said to do Greg Henry's makeup. It took three and a half hours every day. This guy's just whipping it on. He's like, I'm the Indian now. Here's my power drill.

[Sean Fennessy]

DePalman is such a freak. This is such a stupid story. This movie is so amazing.

[Chris Vernon]

Why did Sam pick Holly Body as the dancer who was a big famous porn star at the time? Why not pick, like, some girl at Che porn star number four?

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's because of her Remarkable resemblance to his wife. Isn't that part of it? I mean, you know, I forgot to mention rewatchable scene. The most rewatchable scene is the first time you see her dancing to say, is that Deborah Shelton or is that Melanie Griffith?

[Chris Vernon]

Right. Any other nitpicks?

[Dave Jacoby]

No.

[Sean Fennessy]

Why does Sam keep bringing that dog with him every everywhere?

[Chris Vernon]

He was huge, doctor.

[Sean Fennessy]

Just leave that dog at home.

[Dave Jacoby]

I know.

[Sean Fennessy]

What are you doing?

[Chris Vernon]

Love dogs.

[Sean Fennessy]

Your demise.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

He thought he had it though with Kill. He's a Kill.

[Chris Vernon]

Sequel prequel. Prestige tv, all black cast are untouchable. I'm all in on Prestige TV as a remake.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, interesting.

[Chris Vernon]

I think would be really good putting it in 2025 and like the fucking only fans era.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, that's great.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think I would like to have the sequel of Hollywood and Jake, you know, branching into pornography.

[Chris Vernon]

They're as a couple opening Holly Body Productions.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, interesting.

[Dave Jacoby]

You know, and he's cosplaying as the producer. But also like at home as like this normal self effacing guy. I love it.

[Chris Vernon]

He gets. They hired Tracy Lords and there's like this new actress. Tracy. Yeah, she has all her id. It's great. And then Tracy Lourdes brings down Holly Body Productions and Jake.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a good idea.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Should pursue that to Palma, get that. Palma still working?

[Sean Fennessy]

Not really, but yeah, I wish he was.

[Chris Vernon]

Prestige tv, I think would be really good. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Treo, Sam Jackson, Nell, J.T. walsh, Byron Mayo, Harling Mays, evil Laughing Ramon, Raymond Long Legs or Philip Baker Hall? What do you got?

[Dave Jacoby]

I definitely think it's just Byron Mayo. And I can't even decide what seed Byron would talk.

[Chris Vernon]

He's Sid Goldberg.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

He's basically.

[Chris Vernon]

He's in the hot tub with that.

[Dave Jacoby]

Just like what's next at the flick.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, God.

[Sean Fennessy]

Are you sure Nell shouldn't be Holly Body?

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, my God. Doing the dance. She's like.

[Dave Jacoby]

Do you think. Would Long Legs have been a good ad on the porn set? There's no C.

[Chris Vernon]

I don't see the cum. We have to do it again. Oh, man.

[Sean Fennessy]

I can't look at you guys in the eyes.

[Chris Vernon]

What's wrong?

[Dave Jacoby]

God.

[Chris Vernon]

Just want to ask her who gets it. It has to be Melanie Griffin, Best Supporting Actress.

[Dave Jacoby]

I had Stephen H. Broom, but sure. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Okay. Oh, that's good.

[Sean Fennessy]

What about Brian De Palma?

[Chris Vernon]

No. Yeah. Who's he competing against in 84? It's like out of Africa.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it is.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think that's what it is.

[Dave Jacoby]

Shit. Sidney Pollock.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I mean, out of Africa versus Body Double. It's Body Double a hundred times out of 100. It's not even close.

[Chris Vernon]

Where do you guys stand on the Killing Fields?

[Dave Jacoby]

I'm pretty into it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I like it. That's a really weird pivot in this conversation.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, it's also 84, I think, that was nominated.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's Roland Joffe.

[Chris Vernon]

I really like that movie. Probably unanswerable questions. What would have happened if Tracy Lords accidentally ended up in this movie? Because they had to destroy all the.

[Dave Jacoby]

Movies she was in. Like, they were casting from around.

[Chris Vernon]

She easily could have been in that.

[Sean Fennessy]

Was she making movies in 84?

[Chris Vernon]

I think that's when it started. She easily could have been, like, one of the people. What would they have done at that point? Would all the Body Double cassettes have been pulled?

[Sean Fennessy]

I wonder if the control around this stuff were more intense because it was a Hollywood production.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, maybe.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, yeah, that's a good point.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, I don't know, but I assume especially because the studio was like, there's no way you're casting Annette Haven, for example.

[Dave Jacoby]

I have no idea why the rumor that Tracy Lord's was in this movie came out.

[Chris Vernon]

I looked at all her id.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a really fascinating question, though, about what would have happened to it.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

I always wondered what would have happened if she had been just in a movie, how they would have handled that.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, like, even if she was just, like, in 48 hours or something, I.

[Chris Vernon]

Guess if she's not having sex, maybe that's.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think that's been the issue. I mean, she goes on.

[Chris Vernon]

But if she was in the porn scene in that one, they would have had to, like, get rid of the scene.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, she's in a John Waters movie, like, three years later.

[Chris Vernon]

What's the worst position to walk in on your girlfriend fucking another guy in a movie?

[Sean Fennessy]

The worst position that she's in, yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Because they usually have the girl on top when they do this. But I think doggy style would be the most humiliating. I honestly thought answer.

[Dave Jacoby]

So unprepared for that. So, Goldberg, huh? Goldberg.

[Sean Fennessy]

I just worked so hard in my career, you know?

[Chris Vernon]

Well, everyone always goes same position. I'm just trying to make the other choices.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, definitely.

[Chris Vernon]

All right, we can move on. Is it possible. Is it possible, Jake. Is it possible he imagined this whole movie?

[Dave Jacoby]

I think it would be. For me, it would be doggy style, but getting by long legs.

[Chris Vernon]

Oh, my God.

[Dave Jacoby]

Is this your boyfriend?

[Chris Vernon]

He is short. Is it possible Jake imagined this whole movie?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I think so.

[Dave Jacoby]

It's possible it's happening like in his. In his closet.

[Chris Vernon]

Because he has his job back at the end.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Gets his job back like twice, weirdly. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And doesn't it feel. That's the reality of the whole movie? Doesn't that feel like when you're in a dream and you're like, this is really happening. This is really happening. Then you wake up and you're like, of course that wasn't happening. Why was I in this sort of real experience that actually you can't make real?

[Chris Vernon]

Because the tip offs would be the 360 degree kiss in the beach. Just that whole scene is just ridiculous. And the ending.

[Dave Jacoby]

But like, I mean, what's the.

[Chris Vernon]

The reservoirs ridiculous.

[Dave Jacoby]

You think about the acting teacher, the acting teaching scene, when he's just like, you shouldn't be fucking with his head. Like, what gives you the right to be fucking with his head? What if he fucked Jake up by taking him back to this memory of him not being able to scream out? And it's basically a projection.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I always read it as. It starts at the very first scene when he's having the claustrophobia while he's shooting the movie. But I don't know, it would be.

[Chris Vernon]

Funny if De Palma gave some De Palma interview and he's like, I can't believe people thought he didn't imagine the whole movie. Of course he did. He watched the first scene.

[Sean Fennessy]

He never did say anything like that though, right? No, no.

[Chris Vernon]

Best double feature choice. I could give you just a kill. I could also just give you Working Girl and you could do the Melanie Griffith before and after she became a massive star. Or I could give you an early Hitchcock.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, I was going to do Vertigo.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's Vertigo.

[Chris Vernon]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

I just saw Vertigo on big screen a couple months ago and they're very similar, these two movies.

[Chris Vernon]

How was it?

[Sean Fennessy]

Beautiful. Majestic. It's one of the best movies ever.

[Chris Vernon]

The Andy and Red Zawante award for what happened the next day. Can we walk through Holly bodies next few years?

[Dave Jacoby]

Sure.

[Chris Vernon]

In the mid-80s, glory years of porn and cocaine.

[Dave Jacoby]

I think she burns bright and then burns out.

[Chris Vernon]

She feels like it. Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

She's running headlong into the Jen and Jameson era, which is a different era of porn.

[Chris Vernon]

But that's like 10 years later.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not that many, though. Like, by the time you get to the late 80s, you're headed into like a much more commercialized version of porn. So does she make it to 89?

[Chris Vernon]

She's trying to bridge the eras, basically.

[Dave Jacoby]

I mean, I don't really think that the movie that Jake gets back into, Vampire's Kiss, is like a springboard to mainstream success. So my. Imagine. I imagine that he's going full porn. Yeah. That's my guess.

[Chris Vernon]

Maybe directing or.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. Behind the scenes, but.

[Sean Fennessy]

Cause we don't know if he's.

[Chris Vernon]

I do think there's a path where Holly Body and Jake do have a company together.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Kind of like the ringer.

[Chris Vernon]

But. What? But why would Holly Body want to end up with Jake? Because Jake sucks.

[Dave Jacoby]

That's why.

[Chris Vernon]

I can't.

[Dave Jacoby]

She's really, like, entertaining, like, his bullshit the entire time.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Maybe she sees him as a portal to the legitimate world.

[Chris Vernon]

Something about him she likes. What piece of memorability would you want from this movie other than the telescope?

[Sean Fennessy]

Probably drill.

[Dave Jacoby]

The prosthetic mask, the Indian mask.

[Chris Vernon]

How about a Holly Does Hollywood video cassette?

[Sean Fennessy]

Sure.

[Chris Vernon]

Fake one. I. I don't know if they ever made that, but that would be a good one.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Vernon]

I think the telescope would be pretty cool because you could actually use it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Deborah Shelton's panties.

[Chris Vernon]

Stuff in your pocket for 10 hours.

[Dave Jacoby]

Should have had them hanging out of my pocket this entire.

[Chris Vernon]

I forgot these were in here. Weirdo Coach. Finstock award. Best life lesson. Don't trust anyone you barely know. Who asked you to house it?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Chris Vernon]

I've met you twice, and I'm gonna be true.

[Dave Jacoby]

It probably is.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah. Don't follow strangers for long periods of time. Yeah. Who won the movie?

[Dave Jacoby]

The Palma.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think Melanie Griffith wins the movie.

[Chris Vernon]

I think Melanie Griffith wins it. I love Major Star after this. De Palma is, like, still bummed out that this movie didn't do well.

[Dave Jacoby]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

The Something Wild Working Girl follow up is dynamite.

[Chris Vernon]

But I do think this is a very important diploma movie because he. One of the reasons that makes him him is he did a couple of these that were just like, what the fuck was going on with that movie?

[Dave Jacoby]

There's some. There. There's been writing about this, and I think he's even commented on this idea that he's not making movies specifically for a contemporary audience. They're made to be timeless. And I do think that there is a quality to this that feels that way.

[Sean Fennessy]

I like that he almost always follows up a major pure commercial hit with a idiosyncratic indulgence, you know? And that, like, for every. Every time you make a Mission Impossible or an Untouchables or Carlito's Way, there's a raising cane right around the corner. There's always a. Like, just don't forget I'm Brian De Palma.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, yeah. You like Raising Cave?

[Sean Fennessy]

I do, I do.

[Chris Vernon]

Can never get there.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's very similar to this movie.

[Dave Jacoby]

Do you like Carlito's Way?

[Chris Vernon]

I really don't like it that much.

[Dave Jacoby]

Oh, I do.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's really tough. It's a five star masterpiece.

[Dave Jacoby]

Sean Penn as his defense attorney.

[Chris Vernon]

I'll give it another whirl. It just.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm stunned, honestly. It's one of Pacino's absolute best.

[Dave Jacoby]

Best.

[Chris Vernon]

I get it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did you read this Papino memoir?

[Chris Vernon]

Is it out?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it's out. I think we should. I think we should all read it.

[Chris Vernon]

Should we do like a 20 minute YouTube?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Our favorite video.

[Sean Fennessy]

Apparently there's some crazy stories in it of him just being deeply weird.

[Chris Vernon]

He said he never tried cocaine.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, there's one of the stories.

[Dave Jacoby]

I don't know where all these rumors come from that I.

[Chris Vernon]

Craig, what you think about it? Double?

[D]

I just want to say before this, for the record, I don't know who Nell is and I don't want to know. And I'm enjoying it more because I'm having a good time living in this Nell ignorance. There was a. There was a review about this movie about Body Double that I really liked. It's. It's from the New York Times. The guy writes, De Palma again goes too far, which is the reason to see it. And I was like, that's exactly how I feel.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah, I love it.

[D]

If you're going to do it and you have the cachet to do it, then do it. And it's why I like Babylon, you know?

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Take a swing.

[D]

I don't think this movie's saying that much. I don't think this movie's like that deep. But it's just like a personal movie, a cynical movie made by a talented director about a murder mystery in Hollywood, in the porn industry. And it looks beautiful. Like the sweeping camera movements. It looks great. It was when we talked about. And you were like. Which is also Topoma. And you were like. I love when like A list directors make do like B level genres. I think this falls under that. And it's so fun to watch.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's my favorite thing.

[Chris Vernon]

What'd you think of Craig Watson?

[D]

I actually liked him more than you guys did. I thought he was really well cast and I thought he was good in the movie. Other than the claustrophobic face is a disaster. That was a mess.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you think you would feel differently about it if he had like four or five good. If like scorsese cast him in his next movie. And he was a known.

[Chris Vernon]

He became a guy.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

Like, he became like dreyfus of the 80s.

[D]

Like, could he have been in Reservoir Dogs as one of the guys?

[Dave Jacoby]

Probably not.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's so funny. But, like, it's easy to write him off.

[Chris Vernon]

Could he have been the third guy in Jaws, too?

[Sean Fennessy]

Too young, probably. Could he been Dreyfus's character, you mean?

[Chris Vernon]

That's what I mean.

[Dave Jacoby]

I'm trying to think of, like, a mid. Mid late 80s movie that he would have, like, worked well in. I mean, I just don't know. Like, I was in, like, Midnight Run stuff. Yeah, sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

If he was Grodan in Midnight Run. Sure.

[Dave Jacoby]

If he was Grodin right now.

[Chris Vernon]

Can't get there.

[D]

I liked him, though.

[Chris Vernon]

I'm glad you liked it, Craig.

[Sean Fennessy]

Just because his name is Craig.

[D]

Maybe not a lot of Craigs.

[Chris Vernon]

Not a lot of Craig's. Craig. Craig presentation.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[D]

Craig Robinson.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[D]

I think I need to watch more depalment movies.

[Dave Jacoby]

Yeah. They're so.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, it's one of the best, like, journeys you can go on as a movie fan.

[Chris Vernon]

Probably start with Carrie and just start at. Start going Carrie and just go through.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Dave Jacoby]

Have you seen Scarface?

[D]

No.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, man. I know.

[D]

I can't believe I haven't seen.

[Sean Fennessy]

I would do all of them. I would do Sisters, Phantom of the paradise. Like, all the 70s movies and all the 80s movies are.

[D]

Have we done his two best movies or. No? Like, we did Blow Out. You guys did Untouchables and Untouchables.

[Dave Jacoby]

Right. We've done Mission Impossible.

[Sean Fennessy]

We've done Mission Impossible. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

We've done four, I think.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Dave Jacoby]

We've done this and Blowout. Yeah, that's four.

[Chris Vernon]

But we haven't done Scarface.

[Sean Fennessy]

We haven't done Dress to Kill or Carrie.

[D]

Oh, yeah, Dress to Kill.

[Chris Vernon]

Dress to Kill could be in the could this movie be Made month.

[D]

Yeah, maybe it's DePaul.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's still. Dressed to Kill is still good, though. Still. I think Blowout still is his best movie.

[Chris Vernon]

I agree. I agree. All right. Produced by Craig Robeck. Thanks to Sierra. Thanks to Sean. Don't forget, you can watch this on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well.

[Dave Jacoby]

Facial expressions on that. Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

They might put, like, some sort of rating on this podcast. We'll see you next week in the Rewatch sa.