‘Brokeback Mountain’ With Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris

Summary

The Rewatchables: ‘Brokeback Mountain’ With Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris

Released on July 29, 2025

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Introduction and Studio Banter

The episode begins with playful exchanges between host Bill Simmons and guest Wesley Morris, highlighting their camaraderie and teasing about Wesley's newly launched podcast, Cannonball. Transitioning seamlessly, they introduce the episode's focus on Ang Lee's Brokeback Mountain, setting the stage for an in-depth discussion.

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Reflections on Brokeback Mountain

Brokeback Mountain, released in 2005, is commemorated on its 20th anniversary. The hosts delve into the film's enduring impact, particularly Heath Ledger's poignant performance and its significance in shaping both his career and the portrayal of LGBTQ+ relationships in mainstream cinema.

Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal’s Performances

Bill Simmons praises Ledger's portrayal of Ennis Del Mar, noting, "the Heath Ledger performance was the thing that jumped out because it's such a great performance” [04:12]. Wesley Morris reflects on his younger self's perception, admitting initial disappointment with the film's subtlety: "I was disappointed that there wasn't more fucking... because I was young and single... I want a hotter movie” [05:33]. However, revisiting the film years later, Morris acknowledges the depth and patience in Ledger and Gyllenhaal's performances. He states, "this movie is such a patient movie that is so much more about, like, being able to love” [06:39].

Oscar Controversy: Ledger vs. Hoffman

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the 2006 Oscars, where Philip Seymour Hoffman won Best Actor for Capote, while Ledger's exceptional performance in Brokeback Mountain was overlooked. Simmons expresses frustration, saying, "We had to litigate how dumb that was. It was dumb when it happened. It was fucked up, and it shouldn't have lost” [52:35]. Wesley Morris concurs, emphasizing the quality of both performances and the unmerited nature of Crash's win over Brokeback Mountain.

Character Analysis: Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist

The hosts dissect the complexities of the main characters. Simmons observes, "Jack Twist is clearly gay” [15:30], contrasting with Ledger’s Ennis, whose internal struggle with his sexuality is palpable. Morris highlights the subtlety of Ennis's character, noting Ledger’s ability to portray a man grappling with his identity: "Ennis is trying to get out of the rope.” [26:00]. They discuss pivotal scenes, such as the first meeting outside the trailer and the tent scene, emphasizing the actors' nuanced performances and the film's masterful choreography.

Director Ang Lee’s Vision

Ang Lee's directorial prowess is lauded for creating an environment where the characters' relationship unfolds organically. Morris remarks, "It's such a beautiful and sweet ending," referencing the film's final moments [135:45]. Simmons appreciates Lee's ability to trust the audience, allowing periods of silence and natural interaction without forced dialogue or cinematic embellishments. He states, "people just have to... we have to... trust us to be able to follow the beats” [35:13].

Impact on Actors’ Careers

Ledger's role in Brokeback Mountain is seen as a turning point, solidifying his reputation as a versatile actor capable of profound emotional depth. Simmons muses on the potential trajectory of Ledger's career had he not tragically passed away, suggesting he could have dominated both indie and blockbuster cinema with roles like the Joker in The Dark Knight [42:04]. Gyllenhaal's career is also discussed, with Simmons noting his ability to reinvent himself through diverse roles, though he laments the unpredictability of Hollywood's reception [49:53].

Legacy and Cultural Significance

Brokeback Mountain is celebrated for breaking ground in LGBTQ+ representation, presenting a love story set against the rugged backdrop of the American West. The hosts argue that its specificity—focusing intensely on Jack and Ennis—renders it universally relatable. Simmons compares its patient storytelling to the works of Bergman, while Morris contemplates its place among the first 25 influential movies of the first quarter of the 21st century [21:26].

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Awards and Categories Highlighted in the Podcast

Throughout the episode, Simmons and Morris engage in playful award categorizations, humorously awarding elements like:

• Wheat Rig Award for Most Cinematic Shot: They mention the film's meticulous framing, particularly Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal's chemistry.

• Hottest Take Award: Simmons contends that Ledger's performances rank among the best of the century, a sentiment reaffirmed by fellow actors like Daniel Day-Lewis [141:21].

• Mount Rushmore of Ennis Del Mar’s Worst Movie Husbands: A comedic segment where they critique fictional characters as part of their playful awards.

These segments add levity while underscoring the film's memorable moments and performances.

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Production Insights and Anecdotes

The conversation reveals behind-the-scenes challenges, such as Ledger's intense method acting leading to injuries during filming: "Ennis throws up and punches the wall a couple times, which apparently he did in real life and wasn't supposed to” [61:03]. They also discuss Michelle Williams' dedication to her role, including requesting multiple takes for pivotal scenes to capture the desired emotional depth [113:49].

Alternate Casting Speculations

Simmons and Morris entertain "what if" scenarios, imagining how Brokeback Mountain might have differed with other actors like Matt Damon, Joaquin Phoenix, or Tom Cruise. They ponder the chemistry and authenticity Ledger and Gyllenhaal brought, asserting that such performances are rare and potentially unrepeatable with different casts [76:08].

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Editing and Storytelling Techniques

They praise Ang Lee's editing choices, particularly the seamless integration of multiple takes and perspectives, which contribute to the film's emotional ambiguity and depth. Morris notes, "the ambiguity is what is the strength of the scene and why it's heartbreaking” [138:07], emphasizing how these techniques enhance the storytelling.

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Final Thoughts and Legacy

Bill Simmons concludes by reflecting on Ledger's enduring legacy as an actor who delivered unforgettable performances in a tragically short career. Morris echoes this sentiment, appreciating how Brokeback Mountain remains a testament to beautiful, flawed love against societal constraints. They agree that the film's balance of personal struggle and cinematic artistry ensures its place as a rewatchable classic.

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Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons: "the Heath Ledger performance was the thing that jumped out because it's such a great performance” [04:12]
• Wesley Morris: "this movie is such a patient movie that is so much more about, like, being able to love” [06:39]
• Bill Simmons: "We had to litigate how dumb that was. It was dumb when it happened. It was fucked up, and it shouldn't have lost” [52:35]
• Wesley Morris: "the ambiguity is what is the strength of the scene and why it's heartbreaking” [138:07]

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Conclusion

In this comprehensive discussion, Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris celebrate Brokeback Mountain as a landmark film that redefined romantic storytelling and LGBTQ+ representation in cinema. They highlight the exceptional performances of Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal, critique the controversial Oscar outcome, and admire Ang Lee's directorial finesse. The episode serves as both a nostalgic homage and a critical examination of a film that continues to resonate deeply with audiences decades after its release.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Netflix's Happy Giltmore 2. We're back. Thirty years ago, he decided to give golf a try. Now he's ready for the happiest comeback of all time. Adam Sandler's beloved golf legend returns to the green for another swing at glory. Just remember, it's all in the hips. Also starring Ben Stiller. I like him. Julie Bowen like her. And Benito Antonio Martinez Ocasio. Happy Gilmore, too. Now streaming only on Netflix, the Rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you cannot find Wesley Morris's podcast Cannonball, which you just launched like six weeks ago. Of course you didn't tell me.

[Wesley Morris]

I didn't tell anyone.

[Bill Simmons]

I found out through the grapevine.

[Wesley Morris]

They're really trying to get me to tell people because I am a bad self promoter.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, now we're gonna learn.

[Wesley Morris]

Many people make this show. I don't really tell anybody.

[Bill Simmons]

Now, this is promotion because you're on the Rewatchables. This. We are in a brand new studio. I'm very excited about it.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I can't believe this. I might not even go back to New York because. What the expletive? This is beautiful.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought about wearing shorts for the first episode, but then I realized nobody wanted to see my knees.

[Wesley Morris]

You did change your pants.

[Bill Simmons]

I will say I did. I put pants on.

[Wesley Morris]

The shorts were fine. Just to be clear, nobody was taking shots at your legs.

[Bill Simmons]

So we should mention when we launched the Ringer Podcast network with my podcast in the first week of October 2015.

[Wesley Morris]

I remember it well.

[Bill Simmons]

Only four months after we stopped working together, five months after we stopped working together at Grantland, and I was able. I had to wait out. And then on October 1, I could launch my podcast. I did one with Sal because we had missed the first few. My second one, you came into my pool house and we did a podcast and you were my first guest. And now in this brand new studio that we're gonna have, you were the first guest of this one.

[Wesley Morris]

Do you remember what we talked about?

[Bill Simmons]

What did we talk about?

[Wesley Morris]

I believe it was the Ben Affleck Justin Timberlake gambling movie. I believe that.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, God. Well, this movie's way better than that. And it's one of the best movies.

[Wesley Morris]

It was not a rewatchable. This was a. We watched it and may never watch it again.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, 20th anniversary of Brokeback Mountain, and we are gonna talk about it right after this. You know, it could be like, just like this. Always this thing grabs hold of us in the wrong place, we're dead. If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I wish I knew how to quit you.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode of the Rewatchable is presented by Holiday Inn by ihg. It's a new day for a new stay at Holiday Inn for business travelers. Do you count as a business traveler, Sean?

[Wesley Morris]

Sure. Sometimes.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. With modern spaces for meeting and working, plus delicious dining for breakfast, happy hour. Do you eat breakfast, Sean?

[Wesley Morris]

I do. I had an apple and a breakfast bar this morning.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, interesting. I don't need any breakfast, but I do love happy hour and dinner. They have that, too. You have everything you need to get your work done. Give your everyday business travel an upgrade. Book your next business trip at Holiday Inn by IHG. Visit holiday inn.com to book your stay. All right. Brokeback Mountain. Twenty years ago this summer, Heath Ledger died about three years after it came out. And this was already, I think, in the conversation for one of the, I don't know, 20, 25 best movies of the century. But the Heath Ledger piece has changed the context. There's so many ways to talk about this movie and so many ways to feel about it in 2025, how we felt about it in 2005, all the things it meant. But watching it 20 years later, the Heath Ledger performance was the thing that jumped out because it's such a great performance.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And you just see the potential of this whole career that we should still be enjoying. And by the end of the decade, he's gone.

[Wesley Morris]

Yep. I mean, terrible. And. Well, you know, I have really. I had not watched this movie in its entirety since it came out. Since. Since the period in which it was a thing.

[Bill Simmons]

And you must have written about it, right?

[Wesley Morris]

I wrote about it. I think I wrote. The only thing I think I wrote about it was in the aftermath of the Oscars.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And it's losing to Crash, which we'll talk about. But I think that's the only time. And I will say I was 20. What was that? 27, 28. And I wasn't. I wasn't ready for. I don't think I was ready to receive. I was 29 when this movie came out. And I don't. I was. I was disappointed that there wasn't more fucking. I distinctly remember that. And I think because I was young and single and I was having a lot of great sexual adventures with. With. And with the Ennis Del Mars of the world, I should say. They weren't like. They weren't ranchers, but they did other things in the Boston area.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't think you'd dial it up this fast.

[Wesley Morris]

Sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm ready. I just remembering.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm just remembering what my life was like. And I remember thinking, like, a lot of people probably like, this isn't hot enough. I want a hotter movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Because you felt like Hollywood hadn't really gone here with a big market movie like this and they were finally doing it, so you wanted them to push the envelope as much as they could.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I think. And I'm gonna go to hell for saying this, and I now know better. And also, just to be clear, I was a serious film critic at this time, but I'm speaking as a human civilian person who also had a job to type for a living. I think there's a part of me that was like, I wonder what the Joel Schumacher version of this movie would have been like.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God.

[Wesley Morris]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

With Machine, Machine was straight to hell, turns into a stu film for the second half.

[Wesley Morris]

But, I mean, I think. I don't know. I'm disappointed. I was disappointed in the movie. And now having seen it.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, how'd you feel about it?

[Wesley Morris]

This low these years later? I'm disappointed in myself.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God. What an adult movie. What? I mean, sorry. What a. What a movie for adults. This is. It is not an adult movie. To. To be clear, I just. That was my issue before. I think it is such a patient movie that is so much more about, like, being able to love.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And wanting. Wanting to both be loved and to be in love with all these really subtle real world human questions and concerns. I don't know. I mean, wait. Do you remember when you saw it? I saw it with an audience for the first time at the Coolidge in 2000, in December.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't see it in the theater. I saw it. I saw it as a pay per view with my wife. We didn't. We had just had. My daughter was born that year and we weren't like. There weren't a lot of couple movies and we want to see it together. So we saw it as a paper and, you know, like a big part of the movie and the marketing and just the word of mouth with it was like the sex scene and these two pretty famous young actors and. Oh, my God, they have, like, sex in this. And there's a. And you kind of knew it was coming. It was almost like the shark in Jaws. And now all these years later, the shark in Jaws, the shark's coming. At some point, you knew the scene was coming.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Now 20 years later, it's like this is all over the place. And you think, like, I don't want to use the word cutting edge, but it just was a little ahead of its time with. With what it was trying to do for a bigger market. That now is. Is just all. You could go to Amazon, you go to Netflix, you can see it in a million movies.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It felt pretty tame compared to what's out there now.

[Wesley Morris]

I think that the, the radical. I think that we kind of have to go back to 2005 for a second.

[Bill Simmons]

Please do. Because it's, It's. It was a big part of the marketing of the movie. It's a big part. Why it didn't win the Oscar. Because movie wins the Oscar hands down now.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yeah. I mean, if you think about what's not going on in moonlight, for instance. Right. Like, and I didn't leave moonlight being like, there's not enough like, Wesley, you are missing the point here.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

You don't need that because that's not what the movie's about. And live mixed feelings about that, but about. About the depiction of sex both in this movie and in general between men. But in 2005, the revolutionary aspect of this movie was that you just weren't to play a, quote, regular guy who was also who found himself in love with a man.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

To find the actors to play these parts. Challenging. There's nothing inherently heroic in this story. The story is a tragedy on a number of levels. And nothing about it is inherently showy. So what's really in it for an actor, for a young actor to say yes to that is going to guarantee them something meaningful on the other side of making it.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what's funny about that is they couldn't find Ennis Del Mar for years. And it was. They looked around and they. And all the typical suspects, like people like, we could talk about it later with cast and what if. So I don't want to spoil it, but there's some people who are like, I'm not doing a movie like that. And now I think in 2025, people would want parts like this and they wouldn't care about, oh, this might be bad for my career. Is the thing people would say in the mid-2000s.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. Well, I mean. Because it was probably true. Right. And I think. I mean, I wonder. I mean, I don't know if now's the time to really talk about this, but like, I really wonder because watching it. And again, I have this. The movie lives in the culture in this very interesting way, apparently, because I'd Really, I've seen it. I've seen parts of it over the years. I'd never sat down to watch it from beginning to end until we were gonna talk. Yeah, but like, just many. So many of the shots in that movie of Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger seemed deeply familiar to me. Like the scenes of them. The. The. The scenes in. Where, like, the shots of them holding the frame together, the close ups of their. Of their heads alongside each other, of their. Of, you know, Heath Ledger laying on Jake Gyllenhaal in bed. The shot of Heath Ledger coming up behind Jake Gyllenhaal and holding him by the campfire and saying, you're sleeping like a horse right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

It's like one of the most beautiful things one person has ever said to another person, weirdly. Especially two Men. I wonder if the iconography of this movie be. And just the power of its. The effect of it on Jake Gyllenhaal's career and the fact that Heath Ledger is not here anymore. I don't know. I mean, I've never read any. I've never read him talk about what this movie has. Did or didn't do for him or did or didn't.

[Bill Simmons]

You talk about J.

[Wesley Morris]

Him. Yeah, but I. I just have been thinking about his career in the wake of this movie and how interesting it has been.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, remember in the. I remember that maybe the 06 SBS or 07 SBS, forget who the host was. It might have been Lance Armstrong, and they made like, a Brokeback joke.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, sure. Because they were buddies, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And I remember in the research, Heath Ledger was like, oscars. Wanted to do something with it at the Oscars. He's like, I'm not. That's not what this movie's about. Like, he took it really seriously. We don't want to. We're not joking about this, but in the mid-2000s, you did joke about it, and I think you mentioned Moonlight. Call Me by youy Name is another one where. Yeah, within about 10, 12 years there, it just became. I don't want to say accepted, but more normalized than in movies and tv. Like, we've talked about this before, but that Melrose Place episode where they edited out the guys kissing.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

That was 12 years before this.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

So you think about, like, how this moves with. With gays and queer stuff in films, and it's just. This was right at the vortex as it's shifting, but it hadn't shifted yet.

[Wesley Morris]

No. And I think. Well, if you think about this. That year, your five best picture nominees were Good Night and Good Luck, Crash, Brokeback Mountain, Capote and Munich, and Mu. Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Before he was relegated to being on Untamed on netfl and the Yellowstone park, solving murder.

[Wesley Morris]

So the craziest sex of those five best picture nominees was in Munich. But I mean, you had that year, Brokeback Mountain on the one hand and Capote on the other, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

You. At least you were. You were seeing movies with depictions of two gay men or, like, depictions. Two movies about gay men in them or men who.

[Bill Simmons]

Prominent gay characters are attracted to men.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, we can. We can talk later about, like, what their sexual orientation is. Jake and. And Jack and Ennis in. In Brokeback Mountain. There was a lot at the time.

[Bill Simmons]

I remember that.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But it was a topic of.

[Wesley Morris]

It was a. Oh, it was a topic.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, are these guys gay, bisexual, or what's going on?

[Wesley Morris]

The gays were really annoyed. They wanted some flags. I mean, not all the gays, but, I mean, it was a conversation like, how do. What is our terminology here for these two?

[Bill Simmons]

So wait, can we hold that point for a second? Because I had something in this for later.

[Wesley Morris]

We can come back to it, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Because this was a big part of the dialogue. And it's also different of how people probably talk now. But in 2015, Gyllenhaal said that it was a gay love story and that his character was the more overtly gay of the two.

[Wesley Morris]

Absolutely 100%.

[Bill Simmons]

In 2005, Ledger said, I don't think Ennis could be labeled as gay. Without Jack Twist, I don't know that he ever would have come out. I think the whole point was that it was two souls that fell in love with each other.

[Wesley Morris]

That is also true. He would have said it differently now, but his point stands.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, my interpretation. And I've seen this movie a bunch of times because it's one of my wife's probably, like seven, eight favorite movies.

[Wesley Morris]

I get it.

[Bill Simmons]

And when it's on, she's just like, I love this. She loves Heath Ledger. So it's just kind of been on in my house a bunch. And I. The more I've. I've seen pieces of it or watched it. I think Jack Twist is clearly gay.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

But I don't know about Ennis. I. I just think he. Enos. What is it? Ennis. Ennis? Yeah, Ennis Del Mar.

[Wesley Morris]

I had an uncle Enos, very.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to call him Enos, but I know it's Ennis. But I do think Jack Twist Would because they. There's like he checks out Heath Ledger in the beginning of the movie.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, we are gonna talk.

[Bill Simmons]

He goes to Mexico like that. Like, I do think he was gay. I don't, I don't know about Ennis though.

[Wesley Morris]

But it doesn't.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe it doesn't matter.

[Wesley Morris]

It doesn't work that way. Like it basically is. I mean, you know, this movie as a work of politics, which it explicitly is not, but obviously is going to abut politics anyway. The politics of this movie, to the extent that there are any that, that it is espousing, it's really the most benign sort of politics, which is, you know, listen, love is gonna do what love is gonna do. I can't control what my heart wants. And the amazing thing though, about their first sex scene, their only sex scene that we see. Yeah. Is that. And you know, we should say this. This movie was based on the Annie Prules short story that ran in the New Yorker in 1997.

[Bill Simmons]

And immediately everybody's trying to buy the rights to it. Somebody does.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And then they try to make the movie for the.

[Wesley Morris]

She's convinced by. By the, by the eventual screenwriters that this is a good idea and they can do it. But in the story and also in the movie. But to read how Ennis responds to Jax grabbing his hand and in the story putting it on his dick. Like he grabs his hand and puts it on his cock in the, in the story, in the movie, he just puts it around his chest and. And his stirs it wakes up and is like. But there's something. So like I got. I get like it takes my breath away thinking about what Heath Ledger does as an actor in that moment and what's, you know, what this, what the directions for him are to do in that moment, which is basically to like take his cock out and start fucking Jake Gyllenhaal. Like it's automatic. There's no thought happening here. Right. Like he automatically. He is instantly repulsed by this because he's shocked that this thing that like Jake Gyllenhaal sees in the first shot of the movie is been brought to bear on Heath Ledger. Who knows what Ennis has been thinking all these years about who he is and what he wants.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if there's a lot going on upstairs for Ennis.

[Wesley Morris]

There's clearly enough going on upstairs for him to know to keep all the doors locked.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. That in and of itself is a full time job.

[Bill Simmons]

And then talk like Buffalo Bill and Silence of the Lamps. Those Are his things.

[Wesley Morris]

I knew you were gonna. I knew. I knew it. I knew it, I knew it.

[Bill Simmons]

Every time I see this movie, I was talking about this.

[Wesley Morris]

But, you know, sometimes when British and Australian actors go that route, what I hear as a moviegoer is them trying to suppress the original accent. I don't hear the remarkable thing about performance.

[Bill Simmons]

He has studied Wyoming and Texas accents.

[Wesley Morris]

It just sounds like a guy who talks that way for. From Wyoming. This just sounds like where he comes from.

[Bill Simmons]

So I had a. I had a couple lists. I'll throw these at you.

[Wesley Morris]

Anyway, wait, hold on. I'm just. All of that sex stuff was just to say, like, I think he knew what to do with that moment, and he never recoiled from the sex part of the operation. I just. I don't know. I mean, he didn't have a word for it. Nobody had a word, like, clearly says, after they do it, I'm. I'm, you know, I'm not queer. Right, right. And Jack says, me either. Which is exactly what a guy would say when the guy that you want to be with is like, you know, I don't like to do this. Except for with you. Right. And then I'm like, the next night. I don't like it.

[Bill Simmons]

With his back.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Anyway, go on.

[Bill Simmons]

So 21st century movies. Because there's been a lot of talk about the first 25 years, just with everything, sports, culture, all this stuff. And, you know, and Sean's doing the. The 25 countdown, and this movie clearly is in the. In the 25, but I was thinking.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, not on the New York Times greatest movies.

[Bill Simmons]

It didn't make it.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't think it was. No, I think there was really Crouching Tiger. There were two. Maybe it was. I can't remember now. I really can't remember now. Well, I was thinking definitely wasn't in the top 20.

[Bill Simmons]

21St century movies that either won the Oscar or should have, but then also culturally became a thing. And I think it's There Will Be Blood, Social Network, Dark Knight, no. Country for Old Men, Brokeback Mountain, Oppenheimer. Are the six movies that made money.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Sparked weeks and weeks of real cultural conversation, elevated stars.

[Wesley Morris]

Burkbeck Mountain is on the list.

[Craig Horlbeck]

17.

[Wesley Morris]

I just remembered it's on the list.

[Craig Horlbeck]

17 on the list.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. And were awesome movies that have kind of stood the test of time. And I'm sure there's more, and people can make whatever list they want. And I'm sure there's more obscure ones or moves that didn't do that. Well, but I think. I think those six from the first 25 years resonated in like a specific way that I'm not sure other movies. And maybe you could put Black Panther in there or Creed. Like you can. You can start finagling the list however you want, but I just know that those six have to be on it. Yes, it makes sense.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, it depends on how you're evaluating this, but 100%. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't disagree with all those movies made money.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Elevated stars in some way were rewatchable in some sort of way from a filmmaking.

[Wesley Morris]

And they were quotable. Right. I mean, there was some.

[Bill Simmons]

And they were like one of ones like they were movies. All those movies are movies that were like. I've never quite seen a movie like that.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And. And I wanted to put. There was a couple other ones that were on the frame.

[Wesley Morris]

I was just thinking about what else you could do. Moonlight.

[Bill Simmons]

There's some that are close, but I don't. There was some sort of cultural conversation that those movies started that was feel.

[Wesley Morris]

Those feel definitely at the top of that pile at the very.

[Bill Simmons]

And I'm sure I left out a couple anyway. But then there's another list. And you'll be better at this with me than me. But the. The Star Crossed Lover list.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Titanic, Romeo and Juliet, west side Story. But it's a thing that everybody tries to do. But not a lot of movies actually pull it off where you're just like, man, I just really wish those two would get to together. Oh, they're not gonna make it. But they should. And it's like the oldest device in movies. And yet great movies can't pull it off.

[Wesley Morris]

It's hard to do because you really have to. This movie is quite powerful. Is a really powerful example of it. It's surprising how effective it is given how little time these two people on screen spend together. Right, right.

[Bill Simmons]

They're basically together the first 25 minutes or first 30 minutes.

[Wesley Morris]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And then intermittently after that. But they're not together the whole movie.

[Wesley Morris]

And so you really have to believe. And I think this is why Jake Gyllenhaal's performance is kind of underrated to me.

[Bill Simmons]

I was thinking it was a little cruise rain. Manny, how that Goldman used to write about the part that nobody talks about as a hard part because the other person was so good in it that. But Jonah is really good in this.

[Wesley Morris]

He's very, very good in this movie. And I think if both performances. If there are two Heath Ledgers in this movie, it doesn't work. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

You need to understand, first of all. Well, I don't know. Should we just talk about what it is Jake Gyllenhaal is playing here?

[Bill Simmons]

Should I buckle up again.

[Wesley Morris]

Craig?

[Bill Simmons]

You're right. You want to put on a second seatbelt?

[Wesley Morris]

Um, because I actually think this. This performance is really worked out. They're both. Both performances are really worked out. And we'll get to the women in this movie because at least two of them have really worked something out in a. In a way that is. Is very emotionally affecting to me. But I think that both Heath Ledger and Jack and Jake Gyllenhaal figured out exactly who they were playing.

[Bill Simmons]

I agreed.

[Wesley Morris]

And I think Jake Gyllenhaal kind of gets the shirt under the stick here because it's a much more familiar place for an actor to be. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's the goofy dreamer.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. He gets to act wacky and he's courting. He is, essentially. I mean, I don't want to gender this. I don't want to sort of conventionally gender this, but, like, he's essentially doing two things at the same time. He's. He's the pursuer.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And he's the Mooney romantic. Right. He is. He's doing the work of two archetypes at the same time. And in that opening shot, which is just one of the most extraordinary things that I had really not appreciated at the time, I'm sure I remember thinking it was erotic, but it's so much more than eroticism that's happening in that opening shot, which is basically Heath Ledger arriving at the Randy Quaid's trailer.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

When you put it that way, it sounds like Randy Quaid is involved, but.

[Bill Simmons]

Basically he's not involved.

[Wesley Morris]

They're arriving for this work. And although Randy Quaid. I gotta say, he's looking real good in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

He's really.

[Wesley Morris]

He's not supposed to.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, listen, he's some good sneering in this.

[Wesley Morris]

He was. He was. He was speaking to me. Oh, Randy. Oh. Oh, bad Randy.

[Bill Simmons]

I wasn't on my bingo card today.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I. Stick with me, Bill. If you've not been paying attention all these years, like. Like. I mean, it's the Randy Quades of the world who are incredibly satisfying because nobody's paying that much attention.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to put that in my notes.

[Wesley Morris]

The point is, Heath Ledger shows up, gets out of the truck, stands against the trailer, waiting for it to open because he's not there yet. Or I guess it's locked.

[Bill Simmons]

Gyllenhaal comes in, Quaid's not there yet.

[Wesley Morris]

And they just stand outside and proceed to raise and lower their heads. And it's just extraordinary, the choreography here and what Gyllenhaal knows, because I do believe that at this point, Ennis has not had sex with a man before.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, God, no.

[Wesley Morris]

I think he might not quite even understand that what he might have been feeling for men was sexual attraction. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think Ennis, like even graduated ninth grade?

[Wesley Morris]

No, they're both high school dropouts. Yeah, neither one of them graduated.

[Bill Simmons]

He probably met Alma when she was 14 and that's probably the only girlfriend he ever had.

[Wesley Morris]

And I think Leo Romero.

[Bill Simmons]

I know they were there together. He had to put the subtitles on.

[Wesley Morris]

I knew you were going to bring it. Of course. Well, he doesn't have that many lines.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

So they're just lowering and raising their heads as they cruise each other outside this. Outside this trailer. And Gyllenhaal knows what he's doing. Ledger doesn't understand. Well, I talk in the characters names. Jack knows what he's doing, Ennis does not. Ennis is experiencing something happening to him that, that Jack is trying to. To manufacture.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a little like the before sunrise scene in the listening booth.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

When they're kind of looking at each other, but at different times. But. But only Jack Twist is looking.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Ennis doesn't know that he's in the game yet.

[Wesley Morris]

Well. Well, Ennis knows that something is happening, but I don't think he entirely understands what it is because he's feeling something. He is uncomfortable. He's very nervous.

[Bill Simmons]

He can't wait to eat beans with this guy. Yeah, they're just gonna have beans for the next four months.

[Wesley Morris]

He's definitely intrigued.

[Bill Simmons]

Lot of beans. Nothing more romantic than beans. I was an aphrodisiac.

[Wesley Morris]

Canned beans. Not crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

Like flatulence to really get the romance spark.

[Wesley Morris]

Listen, Angley directed this movie. He had tried to like get you with the flatulence, but we know what is probably happening.

[Bill Simmons]

But you're right, it's a cat and mouse game from that first scene. And it is so patient. I think one of the things of this movie compared to what we have to deal with now with most of the terrible movies we have to watch is that, yeah, people, they. We just have to. I have to have dialogue. I have to have a loud song here. I have to have a transition music for the montage. And this movie's just like, dude, come hang out with us with the mountains. For the next half hour, we're going to herd some sheep, eat some beans and have some stilted conversation and ride a couple horses.

[Wesley Morris]

I also think that. What was the thing that's sort of interesting here and it's easy to miss this stuff because we don't really, like. Most people, I think, don't really deal with sheep herding. Right. Most people don't have to deal with like.

[Bill Simmons]

Seems confusing.

[Wesley Morris]

They're not. They're not. They're not living a rancher life, Craig.

[Bill Simmons]

Harder than running a fantasy team, sheep herding.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's pretty tough fantasy.

[Bill Simmons]

It seems really like running like four teams.

[Wesley Morris]

So, I mean, I've. I've got my little handy notebook here. But like, basically these two guys are. Their jobs are the camp tender and the herder. Yeah. Right. So at night, one of them has to go back down to the sheep so the wolves don't get there. That's basically the assignment here. Keep these sheep alive. And that means they spend a lot of time apart. And one guy stays at camp and sort of maintains an environment there for the other guy to. To be able to.

[Bill Simmons]

So they can be sleeping. Whiskey ready.

[Wesley Morris]

Sleep and eat.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But what is happening? What? Ang Lee and James Seamus. Sorry, what? Ang Lee and the screenwriters. Larry McMurtry and. Oh, man. No, no, no. Diana.

[Bill Simmons]

Diana Asana. Something like that.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes. They wrote the screenplay, they adapted any prool story. And what they're. What you're seeing here, along with some very good editing, is time sort of shrink with these two guys. And the more time they spend with each other, the less time they want to spend apart. Yeah. And they switch jobs where one guy becomes the herder and the other guy becomes the tender. And it's kind of fascinating because what you see is the rigidity of, Of. Of Ennis sort of begin to relax a little bit as the time passes. And.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we had that one scene. What does he say? Like Jack says, that's more words than you said in two weeks. He's like, that's more words than I said in a year.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, man, you're at it and it's kind of turning me on. You need to stop.

[Bill Simmons]

Michael Myers is getting turned on too, over there staring at me.

[Wesley Morris]

Stop it.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, I'll stop. No more.

[Wesley Morris]

I. I just like. The thing that's beautiful about this movie is also the thing that is strangest about it from the standpoint of how you watch people fall in love with movies, at movies. And it's. It's all about the passage of time. And what they give you is seasons changing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Environments changing. There are a lot of shots of the sheep doing their thing. You get a lot of shots in nature, a lot of wide shots of.

[Bill Simmons]

The mountain, sunset, sunrises.

[Wesley Morris]

And you, you are. What you're falling in love with is both the environment that clearly is responsible for the closing of the, of the gap between these two men and this environment is bringing them together as much as their, Their innate desire for company, for closeness, and eventually in the scene that brings them sexually together. Warmth. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Because Ennis is sleeping outside the tent and Jack is like, jesus Christ, will you just get in here? I'm tired of hearing you shivering and your teeth chattering. And Ennis comes in and Jack makes his move.

[Bill Simmons]

So this movie solidifies Ledger and Gyllenhaal as a listers, I think. Right?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Solidifies Ang Lee who was already kind of there because he had had the ice storm and a bunch of good ones.

[Wesley Morris]

But can we, can we talk about. When we talk about Ang Lee?

[Bill Simmons]

Because can do it right now he's a two time Oscar winning director, which there's only 19 of them. That seems relevant.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Wedding Banquet, Sense and Sensibility, the Ice Storm, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, does the Hulk was during that weird era where they started trying to get directors like him to do superhero movies. And let's talk about the Hulk. Audible back to broke back after the Hulk's a disaster and has broke back and left the Hulk.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean the Hulk. I just want to parenthetically say I think it's like one of the best. Really? Oh, totally of. Of that ilk of. Of. Of motion picture. Oh, definitely the best.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he didn't think so. He was bummed out by it. What's. How would you describe his style in your opinion, with all those different movies that. Because he's done a bunch of different types of movies. Right. But what's. What is. What is his. Like what is his strikeout pitch.

[Wesley Morris]

Perception? I think he is waiting to see what happens. He often, I think, knows what he's looking for in a scene. I think he really studies the text. He knows the text, but the things that are variable are what the people do. And he's very. I think he. I think his strength is observation and it's both the observation of what is happening on the page, but also the intangible properties of what happens once what he knows is on the page gets in front of the camera.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And I think there are so many. He. I mean I, you know, the other word I Would use is. Is remote. But that's kind of. That sounds pejorative. But he's such an observant director and that's a way that people tend to think about him, which is he frequently is making movies about worlds he knows nothing about from a life experience standpoint.

[Bill Simmons]

Apparently now he's doing a Bruce Lee movie.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, this son is Bruce Lee is what he's developing. But he hasn't done a movie in like six years.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I don't. I miss him.

[Bill Simmons]

I would have the same. I would have said perceptive would have been the word I used. Or patient.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's something that. I just think there's more and more bad content every year. And of course I watch a lot of it. But people just think with movies just loaded with dialogue and load music, but very rarely do you see anybody just kind of bring you into a world.

[Wesley Morris]

And just kind of leaving you there.

[Bill Simmons]

Ease you into it, take your time.

[Wesley Morris]

And trusting that you'll stay. And you don't mind being.

[Bill Simmons]

Name was like that too. Where it's like that. It's just kind of moving you into. Into a place. Right.

[Wesley Morris]

I prefer this movie in a lot of ways. I mean, from. For all kinds of reasons.

[Bill Simmons]

I think this movie is.

[Wesley Morris]

I think. But that patience is a huge part of it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. His ability to just sort of like trust us to be able to follow the beats of what is happening between these two men. If they never had that tent scene. Right. I mean, it's probably a different movie, but the filmmaking is so good here.

[Bill Simmons]

He's such a PG13 version of it.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I mean, if they're just like. If everything. If it's 1950. 50. And we're making Brokeback Mountain. Right. Which, by the way, welcome to Bud Bodicker and. And Randolph Scott. I mean, that movie. But Brokeback Mountain happened all the time without the tent scene. But I think that he could have gotten away with just giving you the. The romance of these two people without the sex.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's funny. We have more sex scenes with men and women than we do with the two guys.

[Wesley Morris]

But you. I mean, think about with the. With the one sex scene with the. With Michelle Williams character Alma is doing. I mean, you know, I mean, in the. In the story, it's such. It's such great writing that Annie Proulz is doing. Describing what the experience is like from her point of view, which you don't quite get. The movie is very faithful to the story, including it's. It's like blinks of interiority, which it brings out in dialogue and, you know, points of view. But yeah, like most of the sex you're seeing in this movie is officially heterosexual. But you know, we understand the psychologies of these people, so we understand what's underneath it too.

[Bill Simmons]

We're taking a break and then we get to talk about the actors. This episode is brought to you by Pretty Litter. If you're like me and you track your steps, your sleep, even your screen time, why wouldn't you track your cat's health too? Pretty Litter is like smart tech for your litter box. This color changing litter actually monitors your cat's health by detecting potential issues in their urine, things like PH changes or blood. So you can catch problems early. Plus, Pretty Litter ships free right to your door. So no heavy bags to carry and no last minute pet store runs right now. Save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy at PrettyLater.com Rewatchables Once again, PrettyLitter.com Rewatchables to save 20% on your first order and Get a free cat toy. Prettylitter.com Rewatchables Pretty Litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details so Ang Lee said he cast these four leads and it's four actors at fascinating points of their career. Michelle Williams is basically a TV actress. Dawson's Creek, she was in Halloween. H2O hadn't really come through with a movie like this. Hathaway was Princess Brides.

[Wesley Morris]

Wasn't she making.

[Bill Simmons]

Wasn't she making a Princess Bride or making Princess Diaries?

[Wesley Morris]

Princess Diaries, Yeah, Princess Diaries. I mean, all these Goldman books, they keep tricking me.

[Bill Simmons]

But she hadn't been in anything like this and really fought to be in it. Ledger was on the radar with a bunch of stuff like he got offered Spider man turned it down. He was in 10 Things I Hate about yout Excellent Patriot. He's really good in Monsters Ball, which is.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Monster Ball or Monster's Ball.

[Wesley Morris]

Monsters Ball.

[Bill Simmons]

Monsters Ball, yeah. A movie that will not be on the Rewatchables is one of the most harrowing, disturbing movies. If you did a double feature of that and Million Dollar Baby, I think you would just drive your car off a cliff.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, just think about who's in that movie. Halle Berry, Billy Bob Thornton. Heath led Puffy.

[Bill Simmons]

The craziest sex scene I think that's ever been in a mainstream movie where I actually 100%. I would bet that they were actually fucking in that. Right?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know how they weren't.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm waiting for Halle Berry to call the phone. Where's the bat phone? Where's the cat phone?

[Bill Simmons]

Callie, tell us where Halle Berry. But, yeah, so Heath Ledger's in that, and he's great, and he's kind of on the radar, but this is the movie that. That does it for him. And then Jake had been a child actor and, you know, was.

[Wesley Morris]

Was in a bunch of child movies.

[Bill Simmons]

So he had.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't remember. I mean, I remember Donnie Darko is.

[Bill Simmons]

The big one, but he was in like, City Slickers as a kid and shit like that. He had a bunch of them.

[Wesley Morris]

Huh? I did not know that.

[Bill Simmons]

Donnie Darko, he's in the Good Girl with Jennifer.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I remember that Moonlight Song because I missed Donnie Darko when it. On its. In its original run, so.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, five. He has Proof and Jarhead and Brokeback and Heath Ledger.

[Wesley Morris]

What a good year for that guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Heath Ledger has Lords of Dogtown, Brothers Grim and. And Brokeback. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

These guys had. These guys in individually were having a classic Hollywood year during an era for an actor.

[Bill Simmons]

For an actor, but during an era where you were 10 years later, you're just putting on a cape. Well, Heath Ledger's agents were like, you got to take the Spider man thing or there's not gonna be another one that comes around. 100.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, you just named six movies between three guys. Those six. Like, I mean, first of all, those six movies wouldn't even be happening now. Yeah. Lords of Dogtown, but just pretend that.

[Bill Simmons]

They were like a stars. Prestige.

[Wesley Morris]

It's a good movie. It is a good movie. I love Lord, that movie. It's. It's a wonderful movie. It's so lived in. Is it? Who directed that? It was okay. Yeah. It just. The. That movie really knows what it is, and the people in it know how to be in that movie.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think Heath Ledger knew. I want to have, like, you know, this happens very rarely with actors where they're from early on. Like, I want to have my career this way, and I want to be in weird movies, and I want to work with good directors and I want to challenge myself. And, you know, that's. That's one of the multiple tragedies of losing a dude like that is. I don't know what his career would have looked like over the next. You think, like, he has broke back and he has Dark Knight in the span of three years. Like if you add 15 years to his career, what else is he doing?

[Wesley Morris]

But the movie that I think is the important one is neither Dark Knight nor Broke Back, which is Casanova. That's.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, wow. He hated his own performance in Casanova.

[Wesley Morris]

Of course he did. Because that's not an actor's performance. Right. That's a movie performance.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

That's the performance that a person gives because they want to keep making Brokeback Mountain and they want to keep doing Lords of Dog Town. And that is how you have a healthy movie star career because. Or a healthy acting career because you're willing and because you can do movie star stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he would have done a lot of. I think he would have done a lot of non star parts and gone back and forth between leading movies, but then just being like, all right, I'll be the Winklevoss twins and Social Network. And I think he's just.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God. But wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he would have made. You're going to see now I'm getting.

[Wesley Morris]

I just couldn't imagine like what the parts would be, but when you go.

[Bill Simmons]

That route, I'm like, he would have gone all.

[Wesley Morris]

Could have done Winkle. Winklevine.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think he would have, like, he would have been in a Coen Brothers movie. Would have been Fincher. He just would have like banged out.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Whatever the best directors were. And I think one of the cool things about this performance, you know, he just has a couple of just out of control, highest level acting scenes.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where you're just like, wow. You know, And I think Gyllenhaal is great in this movie, but Ledger's like. He's like. Hathaway said at one point, she said. I remember getting to watch the shot of Heath walking across the front yard of the parents, which is really just dust and dirt more than anything. And Heath had decided that at some point Ennis had been in an accident and had a limp. It was so subtle and it looked like he'd had this limp for about four years. And I just remember looking at Heath in that moment and thinking, this is one of the greatest actors that has been. Just because he made weird out of nowhere choices like that. But the way other actors talked about him, I think that's when you know.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what I mean? When people are crossing through his vortex and they're like, jesus Christ, this guy was incredible.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, just think about. Just think about the thing that we're kind of taking for granted so much that we're kind of laughing at the blatancy of it, but just to play the part, speaking that way.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

I remember there being some conversation when either. Around the time the movie came out about him not seeming masculine enough to people in the movie industry.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that was one of the reasons he didn't get the part right away. They didn't feel like he was.

[Wesley Morris]

So that was. That was true. I remember.

[Bill Simmons]

That's true. Yeah. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And I. I mean. I mean, I don't know. Is that really a requirement for these purposes? But, sure, fine. He decides. I mean, I'm sure that conversation got to him. Like, it reached him in some way. He heard that people were saying it. So I don't know what his choice was here, but I'm also sure he saw Silence of the Lambs and was like, there is a world in which people hear this. This voice that I've come up with, and they're like, buffalo Bill, you know, kill, kill, kill. But.

[Bill Simmons]

But you know what's crazy, though? Hit that character versus the Joker. You wouldn't know it was the same actor.

[Wesley Morris]

You wouldn't know. Well, this is the thing.

[Bill Simmons]

I just don't think you would know.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, unless you knew. I were like, I don't know who that person is playing this part. I don't know anything about this guy. Like, he has emptied himself of whatever. I mean, whatever baggage he had in 2005 coming to a movie, which is really none because it had been six years of him, basically. I don't. All I'm seeing is a character at this point. I'm not seeing an actor playing anybody.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I agree.

[Wesley Morris]

And I think that is the thing, that. That in part, makes the performance so good. You don't know who the person playing the part is.

[Bill Simmons]

Feels like he figures it out even more as it goes along, which might have been the script, but he does some stuff. Like, I like the last half hour of the movie. He's so. Like, when he goes. Like, when the last time he has the scenes with. With. With Jack Twist, when he breaks down, when he goes to see the parents, the phone call he has with Anne Hathaway, all the stuff he's doing in all those scenes, I just think like. Like when he finds the shirt in the closet, you hear, like, the life just sinks out of his body. Like, he's just. It's really great stuff. It's like. It's funny because Daniel Day Lewis said this was, like, his favorite performance. And, like, he loves this. Oh, really? And he loved Heath Ledger in the movie. And it's like, that makes sense to me because it's like when the basketball players vet the other great basketball players. Like, this is a movie. Daniel Day Lewis is probably like, I wish I had made a movie like this.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I think that. Well, I mean, Daniel Day Lewis has, with all.

[Bill Simmons]

He's made a bunch of great. I'm saying he's made some great choices.

[Wesley Morris]

With the choices he made. Right. I think that the surprise of this movie is just how if you really, you know, diagram the sentence of the performance, so to speak. Like, there's so many strange things that he's doing here and so much of it is about, like, staying like this, right? Just never moving beyond the, Like a, Like a, like a certain, like emotion, an emotional radius, a physical radius. This is a person, right?

[Bill Simmons]

How he uses his energy. Like even when he's waiting for Jack Twist, when he's drinking in the apartment and he's just like, yeah, he's got six beers next to him and he's.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, he's in the apartment.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Waiting as almost like, what the fuck's going on?

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Who's this Jack Twist guy?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, we've all been that person, though, right? But the idea that it's Ennis Del Mar who's suddenly like.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Wrapped around somebody's finger like that is. It's really, really beautiful and sweet. The, like child, the child likeness, the adolescence of. Of who Heath Ledger thinks this guy is. Because on the page, that's not really. I mean, at least in the short story, that's not quite so clear. Right. He is. He is incorporating these very real world human experiences into this performance that are. That are very much like being 15 years old and waiting for somebody you've got a crush on to acknowledge your existence. And you think they might even show up.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, it made me think. I think every generation, maybe even every decade has an actor or an actress who's taken too soon and becomes like, the what if? Because, like, for my generation was River Phoenix. We thought River Phoenix was going to be like one of our guys, Right. I think I was almost the exact same age of them, but it just felt like he was on the track to be whatever.

[Wesley Morris]

And then he died 100, you know. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think.

[Wesley Morris]

Who's your.

[Bill Simmons]

For your generation, Craig? Do you have one? Because Heath Ledger's older actors.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Or actresses, I mean, but maybe it's once a generation.

[Wesley Morris]

No, I don't think, like, who's died.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, John Cazale's like that for the 70s, right. He does five movies and dies.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you think it almost becomes like sports, where you go, man, think all, like, the ways this could have gone.

[Wesley Morris]

No, we don't really different now.

[Craig Horlbeck]

We don't really have. I mean, we have Mac Miller, Kobe.

[Wesley Morris]

Bryant or like, they're all other places.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's more musicians. And then Gyllenhaal, who I think, you know, had a really, really good, meaty career. Yeah, it's gone in a lot of directions. He's had, I think, some really good, rewatchable movies. He's had some stinkers. He's seems like he's now reinvented himself as this Presumed Innocent.

[Wesley Morris]

A Carry a Carrie, a karaoke artist, basically.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's basically like in. He's now in this john. Ha. Him like he's going to be on your big apple TV screen doing some show. And maybe that's where he is now. But this is after 25 years.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. That's an industry condition that he is like, he's riding that wave. The best he did.

[Bill Simmons]

He did it the way he did it. He's a good actor.

[Wesley Morris]

But it's interesting that, like, he is doing Roadhouse and Presumed Innocent, you know, these sort of iconic parts. Right. For at least Roadhouse, by the way, two massive hits.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Amazon, that was the biggest hit.

[Wesley Morris]

Was that a massive hit?

[Bill Simmons]

Massive hit.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Presumed Innocent was like one of the only shows that resonated last summer.

[Wesley Morris]

I really love Jake Gyllenhaal. I am always rooting for him. I love his choices. I think that he, you know, I didn't really finish my point about what's so good about this performance, though, in terms of his studying Jake's. Yes. And the thing about it is he knows he's playing a rodeo guy. Right, Right. This is a guy who professionally wanted to, like, catch things for sport and entertainment. And he is good at catching men. Right. Oh, and I don't like the idea of him, like, being a stalker. That's not what this is. But he wanted something and he lassoed it and he tried to keep it.

[Bill Simmons]

Hours back and forth.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Wherever he wanted to keep it. And it keeps trying to get away and he keeps trying to keep it close. And Ennis is trying to get out of the rope.

[Bill Simmons]

So the four actors who I think spent a bunch of time together on the set and really became close. And then Heath Ledger falls in love with Michelle Williams during the movie. And apparently people knew right away, like, oh, this is on with these two. They ended up having a kid he doesn't work for a year because she's working and he's raising the kids. So he doesn't. There's. Has, like a year off or so. But. But I think that everybody, like Joan hall was like, the godfather of their kid. Like, there's a lot of, like, that makes sense.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, like, think about what it actually meant to shoot those. Those sheep scenes. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, sure, there's a crew, but it's these two guys basically alone in the woods.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

For weeks on end.

[Bill Simmons]

So it ends up being one of the big Oscar disgraces of the 21st century.

[Wesley Morris]

Can you think of a better one?

[Bill Simmons]

Ang Lee wins for director, wins for best score, wins for adapted screenplay. Crash beats Brokeback. We covered Crash. We did a flawed rewatch most of that one a while ago. You missed it, Ledger.

[Wesley Morris]

I didn't miss it as a.

[Bill Simmons]

As a listener.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean.

[Bill Simmons]

And we don't have to litigate how dumb that was. It was dumb when it happened. It was fucked up, and it shouldn't have lost. But Hoffman vs Ledger is a really interesting one because Hoffman's great in Capote. And I think as the years pass, people are like, oh, man, Ledger. I don't really know the answer to that one, but there's no way. It wasn't a bad Oscar for, like, Hoffman became Truman Capote. That was fucking incredible. No, I mean, I don't really know how I feel about that. Both performances were great.

[Wesley Morris]

I get it. You know, let's just do some Hollywood math here.

[Bill Simmons]

Hoffman deserved one.

[Wesley Morris]

Hoffman had been around for longer.

[Bill Simmons]

Ledger was 25 years old.

[Wesley Morris]

He was 25 years old. There was a belief that, like, well, he'll be back here 10 more times. Why waste it? Why waste it on. Why not give Philip Seymour Hoffman his Oscar now? And we'll give him. We'll give Heath.

[Bill Simmons]

It was brewing for five, six years with Hoffman. Like, this guy's a fucking awesome actor. And then culminates in Capote.

[Wesley Morris]

And also, the performance is just very good. Like, I.

[Bill Simmons]

It's really good.

[Wesley Morris]

I really like watching Brokeback Mountain this time. I was like, this performance is great. But I also understand. I don't have any objection to what Philipsey does.

[Bill Simmons]

Gyllenhaal loses to George Clooney in Syriana. Not sure what happened there.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm gonna sit on my hands.

[Bill Simmons]

George Clooney in Syrianna.

[Wesley Morris]

Think about that. Think about the times that we lived in in 2005. Like that.

[Bill Simmons]

First of all, Craig, have you ever seen Syrianna?

[Wesley Morris]

No. Do you even know what Syriana is?

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, I've heard of it. I don't know what it's about.

[Wesley Morris]

It was that crazy time in our lives when the movies really were, though, about the world we were living in.

[Bill Simmons]

It was post 911.

[Wesley Morris]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

The Bush stuff had started. Yeah. Then all of a sudden, Sirhan is an important movie.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, it's. It's a. It's not an important movie. It's a movie that thinks it's important.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a movie that thinks it's an important movie.

[Wesley Morris]

But I want to. You know how I feel about category fraud.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Well, Gyllenhaal should have been best.

[Wesley Morris]

What are we doing here? Yeah, what are we doing?

[Bill Simmons]

Ledger's in probably two more scenes. Although I guess Ledger's basically the last 20 minutes of the movie. It's him.

[Wesley Morris]

But I don't. Okay, that is literally true.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't feel like this is a grade one category fraud.

[Wesley Morris]

Really? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because they're trying to get Gyllenhaal an Oscar. Right. You don't want him competing against Heath Ledger. And Ledger is in the movie more than Jake Gyllenhaal.

[Wesley Morris]

But it's not screen time that determines.

[Bill Simmons]

Listen, we live in a world where Lecter was best actor for 15 minutes.

[Wesley Morris]

That's what I'm saying. It. Like, it doesn't. The screen time is not the issue here. It's the importance of the character.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the two guys together. I get it.

[Wesley Morris]

It's like, there's no. It's. Not only is there no movie without Jake Gyllenhaal, but, like, Heath Ledger's performance means something else without the. It's the Tom Cruise and Rain man question. Right. Like, I just feel like, what. What Gyllenhaal is doing, and I don't know how these things work. I'm sure that, like, somebody in his world had to sign off on him being demoted to this other category in order to, like, make it easier for them both.

[Bill Simmons]

If I'm chilling, I'm like, put me in supporting. There's no way I'm beating Heath Ledger.

[Wesley Morris]

I just hate.

[Bill Simmons]

I just want the W. I just want category fraud.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, he's also too good. It just. I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Michelle Williams, best supporting actress, loses to Rachel Weiss.

[Wesley Morris]

Wait, who else was that year?

[Bill Simmons]

Nick Constant Gardner, Amy Adams in Junebug, Kathryn Keener and capote and Frances McDormand in North County. Called a strong year. Wasn't a strong movie year.

[Wesley Morris]

Was not as that 2005 was not a great Movie year. I love Rachel Weisz. She should have Oscars for maybe four other performances. I. People were charmed by that, by her in that movie. I obviously, of those five performances, I'm probably, I'm probably going with Michelle Williams.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, what's funny is this isn't the most traumatized wife she ever played. It's not even close.

[Wesley Morris]

It's not even close, actually. That is true.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm like, somehow marrying Ines Del Mar wasn't as bad as the Manchester by the Sea guy.

[Wesley Morris]

No, but she's really good at that. Sort of.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think anyone has a better. I'm completely broken, suffering, wide eyed. I'm about to start crying, but I'm trying to stay strong face. She might be the goat.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, she always. She has this ability to look like. Yes. Like, like, like.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I don't have.

[Wesley Morris]

Trying to keep it together.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But like, I, I'm like, I'm this kind of crier where like the crying starts before I can even articulate why I'm. Why I can't articulate, like when you cry.

[Bill Simmons]

Later in the podcast, possibly I don't want to. $14 million budget. $14 million budget. Made $179 million everywhere or in the. Yeah, everywhere.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Roger.

[Wesley Morris]

Million dollar budget.

[Bill Simmons]

Roger Ebert. Four stars. Brokeback Mountain could tell its story and not necessarily be a great movie. It could be a melodrama. It could be a gay cowboy movie. But the filmmakers have focused so intently and with such feeling on Jack and Ennis that the movie is observant as work by Bergman. Strange but true. The more specific a film is, the more universal because the more it understands individual characters, the more it applies to everyone.

[Wesley Morris]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Raj nailing it. Rog is on a heater right now. Rewatchables.

[Wesley Morris]

But you know what? He also gave four stars too.

[Bill Simmons]

Syriana.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, crash.

[Bill Simmons]

He did. We was affected.

[Wesley Morris]

And also said, listen, listen, y'. All. The better movie actually did win.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I know. I mean, not great.

[Wesley Morris]

Not great.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's do most rewatchable scene. So it's nothing really in the first 25 minutes except for that first scene outside the trailer that you're pointing out, like the little cat and mouse game. But basically we're just hanging out as the guys eat beans and get bombed. The scene, I gotta throw it in there because it's one of the most famous scenes in the movie. I wanna.

[Wesley Morris]

The tent scene.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna tell a story.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, okay. Rewatched this movie the other night with my wife and my daughter who's home from college, okay? She had no idea what this movie is, but she really likes Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal.

[Wesley Morris]

Carrie loves this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Carrie, this is one of my wife's seven or eight favorite movies, okay? And my daughter doesn't know what it's about, but likes the two actors.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay?

[Bill Simmons]

So we're going. And we're going 25 minutes. And she's into it and she likes it. And looking at the phone every once in a while. And we get to this scene and I forget who's behind who, but somebody rolls over and she's like, wait, why are they cuddling? And Carrie starts laughing and Zoe goes, wait, what? What's gonna what? And then the tense scene, and she couldn't believe it. She had no idea it was coming. So that was kind of funny. And then. So she's seeing it through the prism of everyone does it. Like, really, we're gonna throw in the gate. Like, we see Amazon, Netflix, all these different streamers. They all try to be edgy by having characters going all these different directions. So her guard goes up. Cause she's like, oh, here we go. This is the way we're going to. And by the end of the day.

[Wesley Morris]

Where did she think they were trying to. Where did she think she was going to be taken?

[Bill Simmons]

I just didn't think she didn't know what she was watching. She just thought we were watching like a western.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Craig Horlbeck]

By the end of the Taylor Sheridan show, right?

[Wesley Morris]

Hey, Taylor Sheridan, you know what you could use a little bit more of? Honestly? I mean, listen, let's be real. Let Cole Hauser have it. Let him go. Let him off his leg.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's explore the studio space. By the end of the movie, my daughter was like, sobbing in tears, couldn't believe that they didn't end up. So it did its move. Man, this movie's really good. Anyway, next scene, Jack and Ennis fight and say goodbye. And Ennis throws up and punches the wall a couple times, which apparently he did in real life and wasn't supposed to. And they worried he broke his hand. He had a sprained.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, he gets up and looks at. He's looking at his hand as he walks away from the punch.

[Bill Simmons]

Method acting sometimes can go wrong. It's a small scene, but Randy Quaid telling Jack Twist there's no chance for another job. Yeah, you bush sure found a way to pass the time up there. Twist, you guys wasn't getting paid to leave the dog baby the sheep while you stem the rose.

[Wesley Morris]

Stem the rose.

[Bill Simmons]

I'VE never heard that one before.

[Wesley Morris]

When you stem the rose, basically you are kind of doing this.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. Randy. Jack meets Lorene.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Anne Hathaway's character.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She's ready to go. She's on the go team. A lot of horses, they didn't lock it down, but it's just Anne Hathaway coming in, throwing 100. Jack goes to see Ennis, which we talked about. When he gets the postcard, comes in. Alma's like, hey, do you think your friend will want to have a coffee? No, he's from Texas. He doesn't drink coffee. One of the great runs out to meet him. And then Alma makes the mistake of opening the door, thinking she's gonna meet Alma.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Makes the mistake. What is Ennis doing?

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Ennis just lost his mind.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The biggest picking nit of the movie is what is he doing?

[Wesley Morris]

That's the guesser. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, he didn't even.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Hide behind a corner. I mean, he just jumps his bones.

[Wesley Morris]

I am telling you the other.

[Bill Simmons]

He really missed them.

[Wesley Morris]

There are some real contexts that we have to keep in mind. This is probably 1963.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

This is. We're in.

[Bill Simmons]

No, now we're in 67.

[Wesley Morris]

All right, well, we're in that. We're in this. We're in the 60s. Not exactly a big, like, respect your woman.

[Bill Simmons]

We didn't know we were in 1967 because Ang Lee decided not to play Creedence Clearwater Revival to let us know we're in 1967.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Well, we're in a movie trick in a. In a real hippie free zone. So there would be. There'd be no conventional markers. But I mean, I think the thing that. That is so devastating about this movie that's ancillary to the love story is just the. The sexist, misogynist, chauvinist world these guys are living in and in their way, maintaining. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

These are two people who are ultimately kind of shitty to women.

[Bill Simmons]

And I have a whole category for this later.

[Wesley Morris]

And I think the power of that scene is. I mean, you understand what's happening here immediately because Ledger has sold you.

[Bill Simmons]

Alma sure understands. She's like.

[Wesley Morris]

But it's. There are two times when we see. The thing that's shocking about that scene to me is there are two times in the movie where we are. We're outside the relationship.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And we're seeing what somebody else sees. And it's almost as if that, like that movie trick of translation where, like, these people, these two characters, these. All these Characters are speaking one language and we're hearing it as English. And then there's like some. Cut to.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's a good.

[Wesley Morris]

Somebody else who doesn't speak that language. And we're hearing gibberish. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like the Randy Quaid sneer when he's got the binoculars and he's just.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, yes, the two times we're seeing it, we're seeing it through a window.

[Bill Simmons]

And through binoculars and through a tire iron. Flashback.

[Wesley Morris]

Right, but that's sort of different. Right, because we don't know whose perspective that is. Yeah, but the, the. You just totally understand the immediacy of it. And these two actors are selling, we don't give a fuck who sees this. He, like, comes to his senses. It's the one time in the movie that Jack loses that. That Ennis loses control. That in a way. Well, I mean, this also is violent. I mean, Ennis only loses control. His only mode of expression is. Is violence. His only emotional mode is. Is either somebody or fucking them up.

[Bill Simmons]

I think when your friend comes out of nowhere to visit and you just tell your wife, hey, we're gonna get some drinks. Not sure I'm gonna be back tonight. Like, what, what is that? You know what it was? It was the 1960s.

[Wesley Morris]

That's what I'm saying.

[Bill Simmons]

You just tell your wife.

[Wesley Morris]

That's what I'm saying.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if I' back tonight.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm going to be back.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, you should try that over the weekend. Liz, somebody's in town. I don't know if I'm coming back tonight.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I think he even says, like, I might be back in a couple days.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Wesley Morris]

Right. Well, I mean, in this era, I don't remember if this happened. I don't think this happens in the movie. But in the story, Jack is like, just tell her you'll be back in a few days. I do it all the time, basically.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think we could have like One of the 50 states just operates with social rules for the 60s where men are just like, I'll be back.

[Wesley Morris]

I think so too, Bill. We live in that country right now. All states are. This imaginary state you're talking about, we send 1955 all day long.

[Bill Simmons]

Alma's. I think my husband's passionately making out with his friend Jack. Twist face is in the pantheon of faces in the movie.

[Wesley Morris]

What an expression.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my Lord, what an expression. The campfire combo. Another rewatchable scene of whether they could end up together. When Ennis tells the flashback tire iron story and it Basically sets the stakes. Like, this isn't just about forbidden love. Like, we could fucking get killed here.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

So important. I like the double dysfunctional Thanksgiving with Lorene's asshole dad turning the TV in that little battle. And then we have Jack Twist and Alma, and she's like, you know, I kept those. Those tags on that fishing pole, and I wrote a little note, and you never caught any fish. And man, it got it. I.

[Wesley Morris]

Which.

[Bill Simmons]

Which was the more dysfunctional Thanksgiving? Probably that one.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, because you don't expect. I mean, the thing about Ennis is he is so. Everything is so tamped down, and he thinks that he's got control over the whole narrative, right? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And she knows the whole time.

[Wesley Morris]

And she knows the whole time. And the idea that the real thing for him, that. That is so upsetting is that he wasn't getting away with anything. Right. He thought he was getting away with this thing, and she had no idea. You didn't go up there to fish. You and him. Listen to me. You don't know nothing about her. I'm gonna yell for. For the rock. He thinks she's stupid and can't figure it out. Yeah, she's known the whole time. So he threatens to kill her. Basically.

[Bill Simmons]

Jack's. This is one of my favorite scenes, the double date with Jack and the guy from Stranger Things. And they're a scene and they're out in the back and he's like, yeah, I love to go fishing. We ought to go down there some weekend.

[Wesley Morris]

Got a cabin.

[Bill Simmons]

Got a cabin. And they kind of have that moment. It's been a running joke with me and my wife for 20 years. Because, you know, when you're in LA, you meet parent friends. There's a couple. And there's been a couple times where she was like, what'd you think of so and so. And I was like, I don't know. He kind of gave me a. I got a cabin, we could go up there for a weekend vibe.

[Wesley Morris]

Bill, your job is to get me the phone number. What are you doing? I mean, I'm in a relationship now, and I hope to be for the rest of my life, but you need to be getting me some phone numbers.

[Bill Simmons]

We ought to go down there some weekend.

[Wesley Morris]

You've been holding out on me all this time.

[Bill Simmons]

That scene's hilarious. Oh, my God, the big scene. I think this is the best scene in the movie. The. The boys hanging out.

[Wesley Morris]

It's.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the. I. I wish I could quit you. Why don't you? But it's actually that scene is so much better than what became kind of the mean, I wish I could quit you. You know, it ends with Heath Ledger has, like, a breakdown. He's like, because of this. I'm like. I'm like this. I'm nowhere. I'm nothing. It's just. You're just like, oh, my God, why.

[Wesley Morris]

Don'T you just let me be, huh?

[Bill Simmons]

Because of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm just out of nowhere.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, but I mean, poor you. Like, this guy is offering you an opportunity to get away from all this stuff, and you're saying turning it down.

[Bill Simmons]

Mexico, it's great out here.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, but you also understand it, like, this is a person who doesn't believe in happiness.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Wesley Morris]

Like, he doesn't believe in it. He doesn't believe it's possible. And it's so true. I think having met people from that zone of the country.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're thinking this is like, late 70s at this point, so still pretty realistic that it seems inconceivable that you could actually. Yeah, let's do this together. It's just not on the cards.

[Wesley Morris]

It's inconceivable from, like, in Wyoming, in any. Any part of that corridor. Insane. But I think that the tragedy. The great thing about that. There's a few great things about that scene. One is the way Heath Ledger is turned from the camera. And Jake Gyllenhaal's assignment there is to try to, like. I don't know if his assignment is to get him to, like, show us.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, when he comes back. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

His crumpled face to show us.

[Bill Simmons]

But Jake does some stuff in that scene, too. Like, when he sees how broken Ennis is and you just see, like, the lifeguard now, he's like, oh, man, we. I pushed that because it's the first.

[Wesley Morris]

Time he stood up to him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Declared everything. Right. I mean, they've been lying to each other a little bit. Like.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, there's.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't believe there's any girl that Jake Gyllenhaal has been running around.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I thought that was the guy. I thought that was the Cabba guy. I think he's saying it's a girl, but I think it was a girl.

[Wesley Morris]

It was David Harbor.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Which I totally get. What are we doing? Like, if David harbor or David harbor playing a guy in a cowboy hat, sits down to you on a bench and says, yo, I got a cabin. Why don't we go to it? What are you gonna do?

[Bill Simmons]

I'd be like, it's Week five of.

[Wesley Morris]

The NFL season, you would be like, Carrie, Viking.

[Bill Simmons]

Miami. I can't go.

[Wesley Morris]

I can't. I can't do this.

[Bill Simmons]

I've got kids.

[Wesley Morris]

But, I mean, that's such a great moment also, because. And we can. I don't know when we talk about this, but, like, the other power of this movie is that it is. It is expressing homosexuality in zones in which American popular culture never even thinks to look.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, especially in 2005. Now I think it's more commonplace. Right?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, but in 2005, that was part of the power of it. Even now. Right. I mean, even now, this is, like, watching this movie. It still feels like there is some seal that is still not entirely broken on, like, who gets to be gay, who gets to, like, declare themselves as gay.

[Bill Simmons]

I did think, like, I didn't put this in the. In the rundown, but I did think this movie would be way more polarizing in 2025 over some of the. Some of the ways it's discussed, though. Gay, bisexual, straight. Oh, like, I just feel like it. Like, how we term, like, terminology, all the terminology. I. I just. There would have been some quagmire. We entered Versus. Or somebody gives a quote during the junket and they don't like how they said the. The quote, and that becomes a thing.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, even the things that they were saying at the time of the movie's making probably would have gotten somebody in trouble, but. Yeah, I. I don't know. That's a great. That's an interesting thing to think about, too, is, like, how this movie lands. If Nothing changes in 2025, we could.

[Bill Simmons]

Add a good laugh together.

[Wesley Morris]

Real good. Life had a place of our own.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, hey, he's making some good points. Jack calls Lorene. It's a really good Ian Hathaway scene.

[Wesley Morris]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And you just. What?

[Wesley Morris]

I.

[Bill Simmons]

And there's some good research on this that I'll get to later, but I love how ambiguous it is.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. It's like, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Does she know who this is?

[Wesley Morris]

There's a lot of ambiguities.

[Bill Simmons]

Does she know how Jack died?

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

What does she want this person to know? It's just really. And then Ennis finds the shirt, sees the parents. Incredible job by those broken parents. That seems like a fun house. I like when she's like, y' all come back whenever. It's like, yeah, that sounds great. How about two weeks from now, we can get together and have some more good times.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. For Enes Delmar to find something truly unpleasant enough to never Return to.

[Bill Simmons]

It is really.

[Wesley Morris]

Is really saying a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Come back and see us again. And then when the. When the guy talks about the dad talks about how Jack was talking about, first it was this Ennis Del Mar come up here. Then he got this new guy who's getting a divorce and he was going to come up here and wait. What. What's the most rewatchable scene for you?

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, the opening.

[Bill Simmons]

Opening center. Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

Because you always want to evaluate. I mean, I've seen the opening a bunch of times. We're watching it in the context of the whole movie. It's just you're watching a little modern dance between these two men and it's really quite good.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll take another break and then rest of the categories.

[Wesley Morris]

This episode is brought to you by Lifelock.

[Bill Simmons]

When you visit the doctor, you probably.

[Wesley Morris]

Hand over your insurance, your ID and contact details. It's just one of the many places.

[Bill Simmons]

That has your personal info.

[Wesley Morris]

And if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft. LifeLock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix.

[Bill Simmons]

It, guaranteed or your money back.

[Wesley Morris]

Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] podcast terms apply. Living with schizophrenia isn't easy, especially when you're not getting relief from some of your symptoms. It can be hard when you're still dealing with symptoms like hearing voices or seeing things that aren't there and negative symptoms like feeling unmotivated or avoiding social situations. If this sounds familiar, it might be.

[Bill Simmons]

Time to talk to your healthcare provider.

[Wesley Morris]

And explore a different kind of schizophrenia treatment. Discover your [e-mail] all right, what's the.

[Bill Simmons]

Most 2005 thing about this movie, Wesley? Is it how young all the soon to be way more famous actors are? Or is it that it was considered as controversial as it was in 2005 when you watch it again?

[Wesley Morris]

Definitely how young everybody is and that you couldn't make this movie. Now, even if somebody were trying to make it, who would you make it with? It had to be these four people.

[Bill Simmons]

I was gonna ask Craig for a recasting couch. Who is. Who is Ennis and Jack Twist?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I feel like there is a group of actors now who are challenging themselves in these ways by playing characters like this.

[Wesley Morris]

Like.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Like Paul Mescal and Adam Scott and Josh o'.

[Wesley Morris]

Connor. I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought Paul Mesco was one of those.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I agree with you.

[Bill Simmons]

Paul Mesco I could see in one of the roles here.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, sure.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I think Josh o' Connor and Paul Mescal are about to be in a movie about a gay romance, I think.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, but it's in New Hampshire. Totally different.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But, yes, the Western is different because there's a physicality with it that, like, I think just rules out, like, Tom Holland, Mike Feist.

[Wesley Morris]

Mike Feist. I mean, we're recasting Couch. Are we? So we doing it now?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm just. I was making. How unique this time with the actors was, and.

[Wesley Morris]

And there's another very obvious person who I had in my brain.

[Craig Horlbeck]

You're right. They need a physicality. It can't be Chalamet, right?

[Wesley Morris]

No, but that's obviously the person that.

[Bill Simmons]

Sasha Baron Cohen, like, gaining 50 pounds of muscle. You see that?

[Wesley Morris]

Jesse Plemons. Jesse Plemis.

[Bill Simmons]

Too old now, though.

[Wesley Morris]

Maybe. But like, Jesse. Jesse Plemons is the sort of person. And they're. Oh, who's that guy? Will. Will Powder. Will Pooter.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Will Poulter.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like they would do it now and it would be, like. And Sabrina Carpenter. Zama.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. I mean, probably. Yes, actually.

[Bill Simmons]

She might not be bad.

[Wesley Morris]

She probably would not be bad. Honestly.

[Bill Simmons]

What stage? The best.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Do you think it's something Gosling could have done 10 years ago?

[Bill Simmons]

100%.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, I agree with that. But, I mean, I just want this because when you think about who else could have played these parts in. In the actual real time, I'm like, you got to be kidding me.

[Bill Simmons]

Funniest casting Danny McBride as Ennis and.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Shane Gillis as Jack.

[Wesley Morris]

Now, wait a minute. Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute, wait a minute.

[Bill Simmons]

You're in on this.

[Wesley Morris]

Let's take this seriously for a second.

[Bill Simmons]

Because you're out here jerking off on the beans, doing Danny McBride stuff.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm. I'm actually serious about this because the one. The one. I mean, I'll pick my knit later. We'll come back, all right?

[Bill Simmons]

We'll come back. What stage? The best. The score is incredible, and it wins the Oscar. It's just great.

[Wesley Morris]

It's perfect. It is perfect. And in just like one of the last movie scores that isn't in a Christopher Nolan movie where the movie is sort of that music. You hear it and you're automatic. Your heart just starts to swell.

[Bill Simmons]

You calling out the goat, John Williams telling him he's not been working hard enough the last 20 years.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm just like, step it up, John.

[Bill Simmons]

I know you're 93, but come up with some fucking shit again.

[Wesley Morris]

Just say, well, you're ripping John Williams off is what I'm saying, you've done the work, sir. You've done the work.

[Bill Simmons]

What's age the best? A character saying the title in the movie in a scene. All we got here is Brokeback Mountain. It's like, great. You said the title. This isn't a western, but it's a Western adjacent, which almost needs, like, its own name. But I like being outdoors with a lot of animals and, you know, just like, Western.

[Wesley Morris]

Ish.

[Bill Simmons]

Just how kind of the quietness and like the first 20 minutes of no country for Old Men is like this when Josh Boland goes out to see the murder and just big, vast nothing and just quiet. And there's an eeriness and a creepiness with it.

[Wesley Morris]

I love things set in the middle of the country, in the Southwest, where none of the conventional Hollywood things happen. In that iconography.

[Bill Simmons]

Blank slate. You never know what's gonna go. Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams falling in love during the filming. Now their daughter is, I think, like six months younger than mine.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Who, like, very low profile on her.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Jack Twist as a character. We mentioned it before, but the dreamer, when the dad says at the end, yeah, like, oh. Jack's ideas never came to pass. I just. I like. I like that these characters are just losers in, like, not like the. I don't think we have enough, like, loser characters anymore because now they would just be like some incel in front of a computer or something. But we don't have, like, just down on their luck, guys. It's never going to work out. Ennis. Guess what? It's going to pay child support. His life's going to suck. He's going to go to this bar and drink, and that's probably. He's going to live in this trailer.

[Wesley Morris]

That's it. That's where.

[Bill Simmons]

That's where it's going to end.

[Wesley Morris]

The last shot of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Is one of the most devastating shots for. I mean, it's up there, I think Magnificent Obsession, the Douglas Cirque movie. The last shot of that movie is doing a similar thing, which is like really setting up the hero or heroine in the case of the Douglas Sirk movie, like it's a tragedy. And how do we know it's a tragedy?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Because they're gonna be alone. And here's what. They're alone with this particular memory. I think the Cirque movie is ultimately more devastating somehow because it's a TV instead of a shirt.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a great shot. Gordo candidate with the shirt, with the road and then the road. In the background. That's kind of similar.

[Wesley Morris]

Just. Just ingenious framing and storytelling.

[Bill Simmons]

Good at stuff. I'm just gonna say this. For what Sage is the best sneaky hot cast that doesn't get mentioned in the hot actress cast arguments that I like to have. Never. But Michelle Williams, because I'm old. Michelle Williams, Anne Hathaway, Kate Mara and Linda Cardellini.

[Wesley Morris]

You like Anna Faris for a scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, who's also wonderful.

[Bill Simmons]

Great job by you.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I like this exchange. What do you do, Ennis De Mar del Mar? Earlier today I was castrating cows.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What other. What other. What stage. The best do you have? Cause we've mentioned a lot.

[Wesley Morris]

Hold on.

[Bill Simmons]

I think for me it's the score is the one. The eternal one.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yeah. The score is the thing that will last forever.

[Bill Simmons]

And the. And the Heath Ledger piece of it. Did you have another one? Give your scribble.

[Wesley Morris]

No, I mean, I've just got a lot of notes here.

[Bill Simmons]

Big Kahuna burger. Word for best use of food and drink, probably. When they cook, what do they make, like elk or venison?

[Wesley Morris]

It's. It's an elk.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Elk. I like that. Or just a lot of the beans.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, how did they. They did a lot of jerky. They were doing. I mean, they're. I mean, they know what they're doing with a. With a giant wild animal.

[Bill Simmons]

Actually made me a little hungry. Craig.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

When you're making that sequence going from beans to that.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, as a bean, you're.

[Bill Simmons]

For days after that.

[Wesley Morris]

That's a real RFK Jr eating on beans. I mean, I'm just like.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm saying beans every day, like at some point.

[Wesley Morris]

But at some point you like. You know what's great about beans? Every day you stop farting, like eating them every day.

[Bill Simmons]

What did you eat? Beans every day for two months.

[Wesley Morris]

I eat beans all the time. I'm a soaker and a. And a boiler. I love the beans.

[Bill Simmons]

We don't get to give this category out very much, and I'm really excited about it. Yeah, it's the Sean Penn I brought my own Pack Award for excellence in on screen smoking. So it's a scale of one to Robert De Niro and Goodfellas, which is a 10. And he's the only one who could be a 10 because nobody's better than him in that movie. When he does the. The Maury cigarette.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He stares down. Maury.

[Wesley Morris]

That is one of the. You know, because smoking is a big. As a non smoker. But like, as who's lived with smokers most of his life, most of his childhood, I'm really. You got to convince me, you know what you're doing with a cigarette.

[Bill Simmons]

And CR made the point when we redid Goodwill hunting Cole Hauser walks into the bar, finishes a Sig, grabs a beer, grabs car keys, puts the Sig out all in one motion. That's probably like a 97.

[Wesley Morris]

That's. That's very.

[Bill Simmons]

I think ledger's like a. Like a legitimate 95.

[Wesley Morris]

Was he a smoker?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if he was a smoker or not, but I believed it.

[Wesley Morris]

I'd actually. I believe it.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He. I think he said he smoked weed since he was like 7 years old every day. So he clearly was comfortable smoking.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, there's just a comfort. There's a facility with the. With the. With the instrument there that it just.

[Bill Simmons]

Seems like he had a lot of butts on the set. And then Jake, I think, was like a 7, 5, 8 range. I was really convinced with his smoking as well.

[Wesley Morris]

I just.

[Bill Simmons]

Culminating in a double smoking post coedis scene. Oh, yeah, they're both fucking banging out six, and it's like, you guys are. This is not watching Tom Cruise trying to work his way through a bar Red.

[Wesley Morris]

No, no. This is some of the worst. One of the worst smokers.

[Bill Simmons]

Keanu Reeves and Hardball.

[Wesley Morris]

Julia Roberts, Tom Cruise, really, most people are just not convincing smokers. Like, most actors study De Niro.

[Bill Simmons]

De Niro should be like when. When quarterbacks study the mechanics of like. Like Joe Montana.

[Wesley Morris]

But most people who smoke in movies aren't that character. And the reason that smoking was so good was that's the only way that guy knows how to smoke. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, it just makes. It just is perfect. It's perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

The great shot Go Order Award Most Cinematic Shot. We already mentioned that one at the end. I also wanted to volunteer. When Ennis beats the two guys up on 4th of July and has that wide shot of the fireworks going up behind him and his wife's like, what the fuck is. Yeah, it's just like really well framed. Nice job by them. There's a lot of choices in this movie.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, all those close ups of the two of them are really. I just remember them.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And I like seeing them in this movie. Watch. Having watched it pretty really recently, they just seem so familiar to me. Like I've been looking at them my entire life.

[Bill Simmons]

Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness Award Best Needle Drop Sweet Melissa by Allman Brothers.

[Wesley Morris]

I'll go with that.

[Bill Simmons]

Or the ending when he says Jack, I swear. And then the score like, kicks in with a hard guitar. Good stuff Chest. Rockwell Brocklanders award for best character name. So I. You'd want to say Jack Twist here, don't you? Can I make a case for Lorene? The fuck is that name?

[Wesley Morris]

Listen, you about to get a lot of Lorene's in your inbox.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm saying if you're Laureen, you're only from three states in the country.

[Wesley Morris]

Laureens are coming for you.

[Bill Simmons]

Texas, Oklahoma, and maybe Nebraska.

[Wesley Morris]

It's a flavor of name. Lurleen is a name I'm familiar with.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just saying that is a specific region of the country, Laureen.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, but Jack Twist is your winner here. Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

Jack Twist.

[Wesley Morris]

Pretty good. Alma Jr. Though. Let's. Let's just sit with this for a second.

[Bill Simmons]

I had that in picking this Jack. Oh, well, just like who names their daughter Alma Jr. In 1967?

[Wesley Morris]

Listen, I mean, are we. Did you not hear what I said about misogyny, chauvinism and sexism running wild in the. In during 28? Listen, there's not a. I don't know. The answer is no.

[Bill Simmons]

Butch's Girlfriend award for weak link of the film. Craig mentioned a big one. That they would be that open. But I think you could make a case. They both lost their minds. Jack and. And Ennis. When they see each other after four years and they're just making out in the driveway.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

I. Craig, I. I think that you might be like.

[Craig Horlbeck]

If you're Spend your whole life hiding it. Don't you think that you.

[Wesley Morris]

You. But it's. But it's. You've also gotten a really massive dose of a thing that you didn't even know you wanted. And it's been four years since you had it. And it's coming over. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

That's how I feel about Drake May this season. I can't. I can't hide my love for that guy. No, I mean, Patriots might be good again.

[Wesley Morris]

I think the thing that's so great about that scene is it's. It's. He just. It's. It's. It's the first time in his life that he's lost control in. In public like that. Right. The other time, you know, there's a case. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So I'm gonna go.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I understand.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I go with this instead? Jack Twist just driving 14 hours back and forth three, four times a year to go fishing with his buddy and his wife's never like, huh, that marriage, 14 hours is like.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I think she was like, huh, right.

[Wesley Morris]

I think she was. I think that marriage is basically dead. Anyway.

[Craig Horlbeck]

On the phone at the end, you can feel that Lorene knows what's going on.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Jack says that to Ennis at one point too.

[Wesley Morris]

I agree. I think that they've been phoning him.

[Bill Simmons]

She.

[Wesley Morris]

There's no way, I'm sure that the wife. I'm sure Anna Faris and Anne Hathaway, those characters had conversations because Anne Hathaway, Anna Faris is married to David Harbour. Right. In this movie he's got a cabin. And so the cabin is probably a topic of real conversation.

[Bill Simmons]

Like what happens in that cabin. I had this later in unanswerable questions, but he's driving 14 hours both ways, like three times a year. What's the furthest, at the horniest point in your life you would have driven for sex regularly? It's 14 hours. I just want to point out in the AM radio days with shittier cars and no podcasts, that's like a, that's a long time. It's a 28 hour round trip. That's like if you just decided. If Craig's like, tomorrow I'm just going to drive to, I don't know, Texas.

[Craig Horlbeck]

You're probably stopping to sleep as well. It's like a real two day trip.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, that is a, that is a real commitment.

[Wesley Morris]

I want to point you to a song called I Drove all Night.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

By Cyndi Lauper.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And then Celine Dion, because that's how Celine is. Somebody makes a good song and jumps right on it. I mean, I had to escape. The city was sticky and cruel.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. I mean, 14 hours, that's some good sex.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, listen, I've done it. Not 14 hours. I have run. I have run. I have run across Boston. I will not name this person, but I have run from Cambridge. I ran from Cambridge to Back Bay.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I Charlize therapy.

[Wesley Morris]

I ran down Massachusetts.

[Bill Simmons]

That's over an hour.

[Wesley Morris]

That's not that far. Like when you're running, that's like a 20 minute run. I did it though.

[Bill Simmons]

It depends what part of Cambridge and what part of Back Bay.

[Wesley Morris]

Listen, when you. I don't. When it's. I love like deep attraction.

[Bill Simmons]

You ran excitement. I should take the tea or something.

[Wesley Morris]

Are you kidding? It was like 11 o' clock at night. Do you know how long I've been waiting? I'd be waiting for like the, the, the red line to come and take me. Yeah. Also I'd have to transfer. I'd have to get off at Park Station to go get on Green Line to get to the Back Bay. That's insane. Just go to Mass.

[Bill Simmons]

Avoid what stage? The worst.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Kate Marin, Heath Ledger were four years apart in real life. It's weird. At the end, it looks like she's, like, the new girlfriend. It's like, that's his daughter. They didn't age him enough.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't feel like he was only 39. Yeah, they were only those. When Jack dies.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

You're 39 years old, so there's.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not even giving him, like, some bad facial hair. Right.

[Wesley Morris]

And so they're like, he's 20 when he has her. Probably eight. Like 19 or 20.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. I can't wait to do this part with you.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

Where does Ennis rank in the worst Movie Husbands ever rankings? I have some choices, and I don't think he's in the top 10.

[Wesley Morris]

You don't think he's in the top.

[Bill Simmons]

10 because I made this list?

[Wesley Morris]

Well, because he doesn't do anything violent. Well, go on. Let me. Let's just figure it out.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going from scale one to ten.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Sleeping with the enemy guy.

[Wesley Morris]

Ugh. All right, Laura.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, that guy. You had to, like, change your identity and end up in the middle of nowhere and he still found you.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That guy's in a tear of his own ocd.

[Bill Simmons]

He was, like, rearranging the cans.

[Wesley Morris]

Are we ranking these?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just. I'm giving you some choice.

[Wesley Morris]

This is. It's gonna be hard to beat Patrick Bergen in that movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, we're gonna beat him?

[Wesley Morris]

Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Ike Turner and what's left got to do with it?

[Wesley Morris]

Jesus Christ. Fine.

[Bill Simmons]

Phantom thread guy.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, no.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

She's poisoning him.

[Wesley Morris]

Huh?

[Craig Horlbeck]

She's poisoning him.

[Bill Simmons]

He was a psycho. That's why he needs to be poisoned. Sure, he needed to be poisoned.

[Wesley Morris]

Interesting nag. He's a different.

[Bill Simmons]

I got some more here.

[Wesley Morris]

That's a different tier.

[Bill Simmons]

Carlo Rizzi in the Godfather.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Get in the kitchen, you giddy bitch. He got his, though. He got his. All right. Ennis is starting to look pretty good, honestly.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he beats up his wife multiple times, but also sets Sonny up to be shot 175 times at the toll booth. So that guy, Amityville. Horror guy, underrated, about to kill his whole family with an axe. Oh, James Brolin. Putting him in.

[Wesley Morris]

He was possessed.

[Bill Simmons]

Jeff Daniels, in Terms of Endearment. Wait, what a piece of he was.

[Wesley Morris]

He's in the Ennis Del Mar Class of Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just giving you choices.

[Wesley Morris]

That's a different tier. Flap. His name was Flap. There's a Flap?

[Bill Simmons]

We haven't done Terms of Endearment yet. I can't wait to kill Flap.

[Wesley Morris]

Ring my phone.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a. That's another one of the seven movies my wife watches.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, it's a perfect movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Get over here and say goodbye to your mama.

[Wesley Morris]

Give my daughter the shot.

[Bill Simmons]

Daniel Plainview for worst Worst Husband. I guess he's more of a worse dad, but I just wanted to float him out just in if we're just going worse.

[Wesley Morris]

Wow, you really are just going.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think you're dead. Necessary counts. Close Encounters guy. Roy Neary. We just did this movie. He just abandons his entire family.

[Wesley Morris]

Listen, that is your winner.

[Bill Simmons]

We're not done yet.

[Wesley Morris]

Wait, we're not done?

[Bill Simmons]

No, because I have this as the Mount Rushmore. The dad from Home Alone fucking loses his kid. Fuck that guy. Where's Kevin? He's not here. Oh, John heard Jack Torrance in the Shining.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, man, what am I doing? I'm. I gotta leave.

[Bill Simmons]

Because he tries to kill everyone.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm gonna sit here and chases his.

[Bill Simmons]

Kid in a frozen master.

[Wesley Morris]

Winner. It's not even close.

[Bill Simmons]

I got two more.

[Wesley Morris]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

De Niro in this boy's Life.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, God, Poor Ellen Barkin. Okay, go on.

[Bill Simmons]

What was that guy's name? I don't remember him.

[Wesley Morris]

With a Daryl, probably.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, that movie ends with them escaping the house and him going, you'll remember me.

[Wesley Morris]

You'll remember me.

[Bill Simmons]

And then I think our winner, the Great Santini.

[Wesley Morris]

All right. Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Duval wins the Oscar for how horrible of a husband and father he was. The whole movie is about him being a fucking nightmare and psychologically destroying his kids.

[Wesley Morris]

All right, so, yeah, and this is starting to look pretty good.

[Bill Simmons]

And this is like a three out of ten.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, he's fine.

[Bill Simmons]

He's just a shitty husband.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, if we're doing it the Richter scale way. Sure. He's a three out of ten. Yeah. Great. Great. He's a three.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you have an answer for the Ruffalo hand and Ruben Neck Partridge Overacting. Word. I felt like the acting was really good in this.

[Wesley Morris]

No, I don't have anybody for that.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, well, you have a flex category. It's the first time since we've had the new format that you've had to do a flex category. What'd you have?

[Wesley Morris]

Could this movie, which I think does not need Much improvement.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

Be improved. If one of the characters had a dog.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Ennis could have absolutely had a dog.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, this is the thing that's going to start.

[Bill Simmons]

So what kind of dog? Because do we have this as a category? Should this character have had a dog?

[Wesley Morris]

I swear to God. I read that on the list you sent me.

[Bill Simmons]

The An Estelle Mar Award.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh. Should you name it? Should you make it a category?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we're going to. We'll name this the Anistomar Award. I just feel like, what kind of dog?

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't probably like. Like a lab. You're probably a dog that swims a little bit.

[Wesley Morris]

I just feel like this is a guy who is so lonely.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And so estranged from himself. And the only connection that he has, like, that is meaningful to him has to drive 14 hours to get to him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And I just really feel like that guy's life would have been so much better because he had horses.

[Bill Simmons]

Kate Maris character was like, I'm right here. Let's go to a ball game.

[Wesley Morris]

She almost doesn't even want to go to her wedding.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

He has to sit there and it has to occur to him. You know what? Jack would probably tell me to go to this wedding.

[Bill Simmons]

Ding.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm going to go to the wedding. Like, I think a dog really would have helped. I really think a dog would help.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably. Maybe Like a bloodhound.

[Wesley Morris]

Aren't they? What are they like? I only know them from cartoons.

[Bill Simmons]

Just. They're kind of sad. It's like a dog that would be sad. Anis couldn't have a happy dog.

[Wesley Morris]

That's true.

[Bill Simmons]

Be like a hang dog.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It'd be like a field dog, though.

[Wesley Morris]

Like a herd. That's what I'm like.

[Bill Simmons]

A border collie.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Border collie?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Border collies.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I can see Wesley's right. This is already an award. It's Booth Award. Is this movie better if the main character had a pet yet.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. I'm really going see now. But I think that Cliff Booth. Now I have to add EDIs to it.

[Wesley Morris]

Add Ennis.

[Bill Simmons]

Cliff Booth. Ennis Del Mar. All right. We have so many categories now, I forgot. All right. The CR Thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harris. Harrison Ford Hottest Take award. Do you have a Hottest Take for this movie? I have one if I can carry us. If you don't have one, I don't have one. Okay. I have one again. Hottest take. I think you could make a case. Heath ledger had two of the best six or seven acting performances by a male in the 21st century.

[Wesley Morris]

Six or seven.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you make the case. That's why this is the hottest take.

[Wesley Morris]

Go on, make the case.

[Bill Simmons]

Dark Knight broke back. I think if you're doing this list backwards and you're like, all right, I'm making my list of the 12 best actor performances in the 21st century. And you just work backwards from it.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Him and the Joker and Daniel Day Lewis and There Will Be Blood are just automatic. They're one seeds. They don't even play anybody in round one. They just advance to round two.

[Wesley Morris]

Great.

[Bill Simmons]

And then it like, I like here. Just some I wrote down. I probably didn't get all of them. Ledger and Brokeback, both guys in the Master. Casey Affleck, Manchester by the Sea.

[Wesley Morris]

Say this again. What is. What are we. What are we doing here?

[Bill Simmons]

Best male acting performances of the 21st century.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, okay. I thought this was limited to Heath Ledger. Okay, got it.

[Bill Simmons]

Go Denzel and Train a Day. Mahershal Ali and Moonlight. Javier Bardam and I probably mangled that. And no country for Old Man. That's Leo and Wolf of Wall street are the Revenant. Pick one. DDL and Phantom Thread. JK Simmons and Whiplash.

[Wesley Morris]

Sure. No argument.

[Bill Simmons]

And my hot one for this is Daniel Kalua. And get out. I think he's incredible in that movie.

[Wesley Morris]

He's fantastic. He's great.

[Bill Simmons]

But I'm sure there's, like, you could put 20 more in there. But the point is, I'm definitely has one.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think you can make a case for bro for.

[Wesley Morris]

I'd say two. That's fine. I can live. Okay. I mean, but, you know, I'm working on all those people won or were nominated for Academy Awards. Every single one of those performances. Yeah, I am doing a thing. I am compiling the hundred. I'm gonna do the hundred performances of me ever never nominated for Oscars.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, did I tell you about this? No.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Podcasts are written.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm gonna write it.

[Bill Simmons]

That sounds great, but I.

[Wesley Morris]

So there's a bunch by some of these people who just. They didn't get anything.

[Bill Simmons]

Did Steven Seagal make it or.

[Wesley Morris]

No, I'm still compiling the list. So you have 2 cents. Your 2 cents. Your 4 cents are welcome.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Are you doing that the 21st century or all time?

[Wesley Morris]

No, since 1951, which was in on the Waterfront. Sorry. Which is when Streetcar Named Desire came out.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, I'm 75 years since streetcar casting what ifs. There's this whole section in the late 90s when people are trying to make this movie. And you won't be surprised to hear that Gus Van Sant was involved.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, boy.

[Bill Simmons]

And wanted to make it with Matt Damon as Ennis.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, no.

[Bill Simmons]

And Damon, this is an actual quote because he kind of regrets not doing the movie, but also couldn't do the movie. He told Gus, Gus, I did a gay movie, Talented Mr. Ripley, then a cowboy movie. All the Pretty Horses. I can't follow it up with a gay cowboy movie.

[Wesley Morris]

Listen, Damon, you can give press conferences all day long.

[Bill Simmons]

You love Bat. Damon quotes.

[Wesley Morris]

He's the best.

[Bill Simmons]

They looked at Josh Hartnett, Joaquin Phoenix, allegedly. Who, Although he says, nobody ever asked me, I would have done this movie in five seconds.

[Wesley Morris]

Joaquin Phoenix says that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, okay. Van Sant went to make On Milk instead. Movie dies for a couple years. And McMurtry, one of the screenwriters, says Gus couldn't get Anna's cast. That's what slowed it. Actors representatives were dissuading them from doing the part. They called it career suicide for a straight act to play a gay person.

[Wesley Morris]

Larry McMurtry said this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And then, ironically, your guy Joel Schumacher was attached at one point.

[Wesley Morris]

I knew it. With Ed Norton. I knew it. This just screams. It's screaming out for the most tasteless director we had for so long to give it the tasteless treatment instead of making a beautiful work of art the way our. Way our friend Ang Lee did.

[Bill Simmons]

So it bounced around.

[Wesley Morris]

So Joel Schumacher and who?

[Bill Simmons]

Ed Norton.

[Wesley Morris]

So it would have been Ed Norton.

[Bill Simmons]

And Colin Edward Norton. My bad. He doesn't like being called Ed Norton.

[Wesley Morris]

So Joel Schumacher. If Edward Norton and Joel Schumacher hook up to do this, Colin Farrell is definitely playing something in 2005 for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Ed Norton and Colin Farrell.

[Wesley Morris]

Yep. That's. I mean, if it's Joel Schumacher doing The Calling or McConaughey. McConaughey's in there somewhere.

[Bill Simmons]

Angley met with Mark Mark Wahlberg for a role. Wahlberg declined because he was creeped out by the script. Tough, Tough day for Boston.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, we have all been on a journey with this man.

[Bill Simmons]

Listen, I'm just hoping he's in a good place in 2025.

[Wesley Morris]

Talk about a man who is carrying around a lot of. Yeah, and I hope he has worked.

[Bill Simmons]

It out because he just sold his house to Paris Hilton. Is that a yes or no for working it out?

[Wesley Morris]

He's been telling on himself for years. I'm just, wow, okay, Great.

[Bill Simmons]

Ledger from the beginning, wanted to portray Ennis and not Jack. Resonated with that character.

[Wesley Morris]

That makes sense. That makes sense.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Lee and Gyllenhaal, they didn't say what actors were the other ones, but there were some people who were just like, I'm not doing that. Hathaway got the script they wanted to read for Alma, and she read it and she's like, I'm Loreen. I want to be Lorraine.

[Wesley Morris]

I wonder why.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know.

[Wesley Morris]

It's interesting because she. I don't. She's such an interesting person to me because, I mean, I'm a really big Anne Hathaway lover under almost all circumstances.

[Bill Simmons]

We've both had stock in Hathaway island for a long time, and I don't even end up. I had a condo there since 2005.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't even love Rachel getting married.

[Bill Simmons]

I know.

[Wesley Morris]

I think the star of that movie is Rosemary DeWitt, but I.

[Bill Simmons]

She's an untamed with Eric Bana.

[Wesley Morris]

I love her.

[Bill Simmons]

They're carrying a secret. And there's a murder. Eight episodes. Gotta find out what's gonna happen.

[Wesley Morris]

Am I gonna watch this?

[Bill Simmons]

Listen, it's. If.

[Wesley Morris]

If.

[Bill Simmons]

If people think AI is coming. I think the counterargument would be, AI is already here.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, I'm already convinced.

[Bill Simmons]

And they're like, yellowstone park murder, dead kid.

[Wesley Morris]

Don't go here. This is not what we came to do. But listen, if AI can bring the movies back, then I'm all for it. Because if AI people are already.

[Bill Simmons]

I've said this to Craig. If AI can give us another round of Seagal and Van Damme and Stallone. If we can just run that back.

[Wesley Morris]

What? No, that's not what I want AI to do. We. We can. We.

[Bill Simmons]

I just make the. Make stuff that I like to watch.

[Wesley Morris]

I just. All right, just use it as a little, little, little yeast, a little starter.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, get your bread. They've been using it all decade. Nobody wants to say it.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm not surprised.

[Bill Simmons]

Best. That guy David harbor, he's got to win, right? Because he wasn't David harbor until stranger.

[Wesley Morris]

He was. He was.

[Bill Simmons]

He was a full fledged that guy for 100 years.

[Wesley Morris]

And I saw him when I saw this movie in 2005. I was like, like, who is that?

[Bill Simmons]

You know him as David harbor now, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You like the new setup where I can just turn to you?

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's nice. I'm not like.

[Wesley Morris]

I really love it, honestly. It's great.

[Bill Simmons]

Dion Waiters award. We got Randy Quaid. Wow. You guys stem the rose. Got.

[Wesley Morris]

Although Anna Ferris.

[Bill Simmons]

Anna Ferris. First seen Anne Hathaway's dad. Oh, really? Bringing It.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Who is that actor? Do we even know? I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't know who that actor is. The cabin guy named Randall. Down low. Randall. He's got a cabin. And then.

[Wesley Morris]

That's David Harbor.

[Bill Simmons]

Right, David Harbor. And then Linda Cardellini.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think she's really good in this movie. And by the way, I've always liked her.

[Wesley Morris]

She's. What's not to like?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, she's.

[Wesley Morris]

She brings everything she's got to most of the poor performances that she's assigned to.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a big fan of hers. She is, like two good parts short. It felt like over that stretch when.

[Wesley Morris]

She should have gotten an Oscar nomination.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder if market corrected her.

[Wesley Morris]

What.

[Bill Simmons]

What she got in her Oscar nomination.

[Wesley Morris]

Green Book. She's really good in that movie. I hate Green Book. I think it's one of the worst movies made in the last 50 years.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to argue about that at dinner tonight with my wife, because my wife likes Green Book.

[Wesley Morris]

Listen, some of my best friends like Green Book. Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

I saw it for the first time.

[Wesley Morris]

When?

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe five weeks ago.

[Wesley Morris]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I lied when that came out. I pretended I watched it and I didn't. I just didn't watch it.

[Wesley Morris]

Bill Simmons. What?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

You pretended to see Green Book?

[Bill Simmons]

I was like, yeah, I saw it. It was fine. I never saw it.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God. So now what's the truth?

[Bill Simmons]

The movie just ends. The Mahersha Hartley shows up for dinner at the end.

[Wesley Morris]

One of the most depressing scenes I've ever seen in a movie.

[Bill Simmons]

And they're like, he has nothing else to do in the holiday. And they welcome him in. It's like, whoa, this scene's gonna be really good. The whole movie's been building for this. And it's like closing credits. They've been friends for their whole lives.

[Wesley Morris]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's like, wait. What I have to say, though, that was the ending.

[Wesley Morris]

I just want to be clear about one thing. I want to. I'm not done with this.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

I want to be clear. I loathe this movie. I. I, to this day, am getting letters from people who are mad at me.

[Bill Simmons]

I remember your initial stance, who are.

[Wesley Morris]

Mad at me, because I. I am really not.

[Bill Simmons]

I actually think I did see it in 2018. I just forgot.

[Wesley Morris]

It. Stands to reason. Although I don't know how you could forget.

[Bill Simmons]

I must have seen it. I. I'm joking about lying. I do think I did see it. I probably was just drinking wine and forgot it. Immed.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know what's happening right now. But listen, the last scene of this terrible movie is actually quite good.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Because it's the most depressing thing to happen to a black man in a movie in about 35 years. But, and I'm really, I really mean that, I think. But Mahershala Ali shows up at their house, their apartment. The, the, the racist. He's been spending.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

All this time with being driven around the Deep south where more racism happens. And the Viggo Mortensen character is likable because he's not KKK Racist.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

He's just a stupid Italian racist.

[Bill Simmons]

He doesn't know any better. Racist.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. Oops, sorry. I didn't know. Anyway, Mahershala's lonely, has no place else to go, comes to the apartment for Feast of the Seven Fishes, and Linda Cardellini leans over into Mahershala's ear and says, I'm. I can't believe I've told y'. All. I'm feeling really emotional right now. But, like, I know you wrote the letters. What an ending. It's fine. They didn't. We. Because the dinner. They couldn't have sold that dinner because it would have been terrible. They would have been all kinds of eggplant. Like just terrible jokes. Terrible jokes. It needed to end where it ended. And the ending is kind of sweet.

[Bill Simmons]

I know you wrote the letters about it. Oh, I guess. I guess I'm going to get up now. Who wins? Dion Waiters.

[Wesley Morris]

I think Randy Quaid.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. I think you're right, actually. I think it's Randy Quaid recasting couch. We already did it. Craig has a Flex category.

[Craig Horlbeck]

You kind of took it. I, I was gonna do the Rick Dalton Award for the best acting I've ever seen in my life. And I, I it for our generation. With Heath Ledger, we have 10 things I hate about you. We have A Knight's Tale, which is a movie I really like.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Knight's Tale. Another good movie. Star performance from Heath Ledger.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Totally broke back in the beloved movie.

[Wesley Morris]

Broke back.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And then Dark Knight. And I, I think even with some of the best of the best, Leo, Daniel Day Lewis, when I'm watching movies with them, I still see Daniel Day Lewis and Leo DiCaprio. I think Heath Ledger is the only lead where I'm like, I don't, I don't see Heath Ledger like the Joker and Brokeback Mountain and 10 Things I Hate about yout, which is like a teen romantic comedy. The fact that he gets away with all three of those characters and you never Once think about any of the other ones. Even when you rewatch these movies over and over, I think is so incredibly impressive. At his age, I don't think anybody else has done it like that.

[Wesley Morris]

There's no through line. I mean, it's true that we don't have enough data really, to create one.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But the. One of the, like, I don't know, silver linings of the tragedy of his life is that all the characters are these. They stand individually, discreetly apart from each other.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I mean, the next time most people saw Heath Ledger after Brokeback Mountain was as the fucking Joker. And it was like, immediately it worked and it was one of the best performances ever. To go from Ennis to the Joker is like one of the most insane jumps in movie roles, I think, ever.

[Bill Simmons]

It's really crazy. I agree.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I mean, in a weird way, I'm always reluctant to give actors credit for acting, for stretching or doing something different from the other thing. But I also think that I don't know how old. So he was 20?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he was. He's 25 and broke back. He's like 21. When he does 10 things I hate about you.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Maybe 27, 20.

[Wesley Morris]

Because I think the thing that is. That feels impressive now is who. Who. Who's going from that to that. Right. Like, who is. Whose pendulum can swing that far from one direction to the other direction?

[Craig Horlbeck]

The guy who just came to mind is Pattinson.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. But there's a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

I still always feel like he's Pattinson.

[Wesley Morris]

He's. But not. It's not that.

[Bill Simmons]

And Chalamet. I always feel like he's Chalamet, even.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Though I think he was always Leo Fair.

[Wesley Morris]

But you know what? The thing about the. Wait, can I.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Well, I don't feel like Ledger is always Ledger.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, we're talking about.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

See, the thing is we're. We have. We've already left the zone of young people. DiCaprio's 50.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

I was about to talk about Denzel. I had to bite my tongue. But in this new Spike Lee movie, he's doing another. This is another Denzel. I've never seen this Denzel before. It's very subtle. I think it's very different.

[Bill Simmons]

Younger Pacino became different people in weird ways.

[Wesley Morris]

But the point. But Craig's point is. I don't know. It's very difficult now to imagine, given the dearth of material, the scaredy catness of the people managing people, the actual lack of talent, I have to say. Like, I don't know who is capable of first giving the Brokeback performance and then giving that performance and getting cast as the joker in.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're agreeing with Craig?

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. I'm just saying you don't. You. We can't have this conversation for very long and still be talking about under 30 years old.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what else is a good category? The Steven Seagal shitting on himself award for most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot.

[Wesley Morris]

This is.

[Bill Simmons]

This is a real category still here. Michelle Williams requested that her two male leads kiss in front of her to help her get in the right emotional place for her character. Elma.

[Wesley Morris]

Good for her.

[Bill Simmons]

She was involved with Ledger in real life. She felt it would help her. She had to goad both men into it as their first attempts were too half hearted for her liking. Michelle Williams, ultimate method actor. Wow. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I mean, I don't know what Jake Gyllenhaal's preferred mode of acting is, but they definitely seem. Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams definitely seem to be. It's funny, the marriages align with the way I think of them as actors. And I think Anne Hathaway and Jake Gyllenhaal are a particular kind of actor to me. And Michelle Williams and Heath Ledger are a different kind of actor. So it all kind of makes sense. But good for her.

[Bill Simmons]

Half asset. Research how many takes for the tense sex scene. Ooh, God. I think Ang Lee wanted.

[Wesley Morris]

I was thinking about how many takes it would take to get it. To get it right or to make Ang Lee happy at least.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the answer was 13.

[Wesley Morris]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

And they used the 13th take. Whoa.

[Wesley Morris]

Huh?

[Bill Simmons]

Ledger grew up around horses and learned to speak in Wyoming in Texas accents. Texas accent Film the movie in southern Alberta.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, good. Canada doing another great performance as us.

[Bill Simmons]

William sprained her knee in the snow scene. Ledger injured his hand when he punched the wall. And they had a kissing scene. And Ledger almost broke Gyllenhaal's nose. I don't know what scene it was.

[Wesley Morris]

Probably Craig hates.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Utah Jazz owner Larry H. Miller.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, no. I remember this.

[Bill Simmons]

Remove the movies from the theaters.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, man.

[Bill Simmons]

In Utah. Didn't want it. Didn't have the right family values for Larry. He said.

[Wesley Morris]

Did he see the movie?

[Bill Simmons]

He said no resemblance of traditional family, which he believed is, quote, dangerous.

[Wesley Morris]

Did he watch the movie?

[Bill Simmons]

Focus Feature says we'll never send another movie to Utah. How about that?

[Wesley Morris]

Good for you. Oh, Focus Features, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Great job by them. Brokeback Mountain, first major film to be released simultaneously on DVD and digital download.

[Wesley Morris]

Is that significant?

[Bill Simmons]

Apparently, for the films I Have some alternate foreign language titles for Brokeback Mountain.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, no.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm so scared. Don't be scared.

[Wesley Morris]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

We have in French, Italian and Portuguese, it was titled Le Secret de Broke Back.

[Wesley Morris]

No, you guys. What the. Or no.

[Bill Simmons]

Or. Oh, Sagretto. They bore Brokeback Mountain. No.

[Wesley Morris]

Come on. Survey says no.

[Bill Simmons]

In Canadian French. The translation was Memories of Brokeback Mountain.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, thank you. See, the Canadians will also.

[Bill Simmons]

No, you're not going to like the Spanish titles.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, no.

[Bill Simmons]

In a Forbidden Terrain and Secret in the Mountain.

[Wesley Morris]

Forbidden terrain is like 1999, 1992.

[Bill Simmons]

Cigar to and then in Hungarian.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, these guys usually make the best posters. So let's see what they got.

[Bill Simmons]

Tu el Beretsko Dagon. Beyond Friendship. Ooh, kind of a provocative title.

[Wesley Morris]

Provocative. Provocative.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Beyond Friendship's a good title.

[Wesley Morris]

I kind of like it. These the Hungarians.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, if Netflix had a show that launched today and it was like Beyond Friendship, I'd be like, all right, what's this about?

[Wesley Morris]

I kind of like that. I actually do like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Solid. Annie Pearl said she regretted writing the story several years later and said she gets too many fan fiction about alternative plots. People saying, here's what you got wrong. And just a lot of backdoor driving with the.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, men who were, like, doing fan. Back door. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, we should just say. Just real quick, this short story is a marvel. It is a marvel of concision, brevity, description.

[Bill Simmons]

Have you read it?

[Wesley Morris]

It's funny.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, it is.

[Bill Simmons]

It's really great. It is a phenomenal New Yorker, right?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Depressing.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're a writer, this might make you cry.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Oh, I haven't done it yet. I haven't cried.

[Bill Simmons]

Daniel Day Lewis won the SAG Award for There Will Be Blood and dedicated it to Heath Ledger's memory and said, the final scene in Ennis's trailer was as moving as anything I've ever seen.

[Wesley Morris]

I remember that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I remember that Heath Ledger told Philadelphia Enquirer that there was a sequence film for the movie where Jack and Ennis helped some hippies get their car out of a river, and it took three days to shoot, and it was terrible. And everybody hated it.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, that's not in the story. That's for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Annie Pearl sent Jake and Keith an original autographed copy of her story and wrote to Jake. To Jake. And when she did it for Heath Ledger, she accidentally signed it to Ennis and then realized that it was like a. Almost like a Freudian slip. Like, he became Ennis to the point that she said. And then she just kept it that way. And she told him, like, I just can't believe you became that character like you did. So here's the book.

[Wesley Morris]

Wow. What a lady. By the way, the more I read about her. I mean, just one of our great writers.

[Bill Simmons]

Great writer. Apex Mountain. Heath Ledger. I. I mean, because, yeah, Dark Knight came out. He was. He had already.

[Wesley Morris]

This is the Apex, right? This is the Apex.

[Bill Simmons]

It felt like anything was possible with that match. This movie. Gyllenhaal. I think it's later. I think it's in that end of Watch. What's that movie he made with. It's a good movie with what's his face. Hugh Jackman, Prisoners.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, Prisoners. That's a Villeneuve. It doesn't.

[Bill Simmons]

I like Prisoners. You like Prisoners, Craig.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I haven't seen it.

[Wesley Morris]

It's keyed up enough. It's like the. I'm as. You know, I'm really torn about this director. But it's a good use of Jake Gyllenhaal and Hugh Jackman and Viola Davis and Terrence Howard. But the movie is nuts.

[Bill Simmons]

Not as good as for.

[Wesley Morris]

And Melissa Leo, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Not as good as for Viola Davis as Black Hat. Being able to be in that classic that we've already done the rewatch. Ang Lee. Would you go here or would you go Life of pie for Apex Mountain? It's probably here, right? Because he makes this and it's like, anything's possible.

[Wesley Morris]

Anything is possible. Like. Yeah, I think it's. It's definitely. Well, Crouching Tiger. It's probably this. It's this. It's this. Because he comes and makes an. Like. Well, he. He's a. He's a student of America, though. He's made so many great movies about. About the United States.

[Bill Simmons]

Michelle Williams.

[Wesley Morris]

No, definitely not.

[Bill Simmons]

Traumatized. Michelle Williams wife characters. I think it's Manchester. I think it's Manchester Hathaway. No. Sheep. Sheep. Might be the most sheep we've ever had in a movie.

[Wesley Morris]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the answer to that, then?

[Wesley Morris]

Il Quatro Vulture.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

The great Italian movie that is just. It's one of my favorite movies. And if you loved it, like, just. Just watch it. Very sheepy. If memory serves.

[Bill Simmons]

Gay Westerns.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yes. But it did inspire some. Some actual gay cowboy.

[Bill Simmons]

What was the movie I didn't like with Benedict Cumberbatch much later that wasn't a Western.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, the Power of the Dog.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I didn't like that movie.

[Wesley Morris]

Doesn't really work for me either.

[Bill Simmons]

That's another one of Those Oscar contenders where like, six years later you go, wait, what happened?

[Wesley Morris]

It's kind of how, you know, the movies changed too. Like, I mean, that's a movie that really spoke to my brain more than it did anything else.

[Bill Simmons]

That's all I got for Apex Mountain. This will be fun, though. Cruiser Hanks.

[Wesley Morris]

I. This is a.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, you can go any age range for either guy. So for these guys, you would go 20s. But see, here's the 20s Hanks.

[Wesley Morris]

This is the trash.

[Bill Simmons]

Or you can go Cruise as the Randy Quaid character. You can do whatever you want.

[Wesley Morris]

But this is why this movie was such a big deal, is because there's no moment in time. Maybe in the 70s, you could have got Pacino and Kazale to do this or something like that. But then, like, what are they doing?

[Bill Simmons]

I think Pacino and Kazale absolutely would have done this. Pacino made Cruising.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Of one of the five greatest movies of all time.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't think that Tom Cruise would have gone near this thing with any era of Tom.

[Bill Simmons]

So Tom Cruise is the answer because he could have played Jack Twist. I don't think he would have played Jack Twist.

[Wesley Morris]

Would not have played Jack.

[Bill Simmons]

Top Gun era Tom Cruise, he would have been like, my next movie is Brokeback.

[Wesley Morris]

But he. But. But the thing about him is he totally could have played Jack Twist.

[Bill Simmons]

He would have been a really good Jack Twist.

[Wesley Morris]

He would have been a really good Jack Twist. We could. Had a real laugh at him.

[Bill Simmons]

Have. There could have been a running scene, though, where, like, one of the sheep gets away and he's just sprinting after.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, there are those moments where Jake Gyllenhaal is really kind of just enjoying himself being drunk as Jack.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he gets a little cruisy.

[Wesley Morris]

Ish. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I feel like.

[Bill Simmons]

How about Scorsese or Spielberg? Probably Spielberg. I don't know.

[Wesley Morris]

It's a great question. Spielberg is the obvious answer.

[Bill Simmons]

Scorsese's Brokeback Mountain would have been. And doing bumps with the beans.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I don't know. I feel like it would be interesting to see what choices I love. Movie director karaoke, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, when given the opportunity to inhabit the filmmaking of another great director. What does a great director do? It doesn't happen very often, but every once in a while you get something like Gus Van Sant remake a Psycho or something. I'd be curious to see, like, Scorsese try and do a Bergman or a Mountain.

[Bill Simmons]

What was the one he did in the 90s? Age of innocence.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Oh, I mean, great case. For example. That's good, Bill. That's one of my favorite Scorsese's.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, what role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played?

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, Randy Quaid's character.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, for sure. That as well. Picking nits. Well, you already. One of mine was, could you really eat beans for that many months? But you said, yes, we pass up a chance for.

[Wesley Morris]

For Tommy. How's the peeping?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Randy Coffin.

[Wesley Morris]

Is Randy literally peeping on the two guys?

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, Jack Twist. How's the peeping anyway? How's the peeping? Picking. It's the. This is from my wife, who's seen this movie too many times. Anne Hathaway has a newborn and it drives my wife crazy when babies are in movies, but they're clearly like four months old. And just. She wanted me to put that in the pod. She's like, just, let's all get better Hollywood with when we have newborn babies.

[Wesley Morris]

In a newborn baby scene, she's got child labor issues.

[Bill Simmons]

Just like don't have the baby be four months old.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, interesting. Okay, interesting. I hear that character.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a junior. We've mentioned a lot of the picket nits already. Jack's mom saying, you come back and see us again. Put that invitation to my back pocket. I have more unanswerable questions than picking it.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, Can I have a.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Can I add a picking it, please? Hey, Ennis maybe use the fishing gear once.

[Wesley Morris]

He didn't know. He just doesn't respect her.

[Craig Horlbeck]

What are they eating out?

[Wesley Morris]

It's just such a McDonald's.

[Craig Horlbeck]

What in the middle of Wyoming are they just eating beef?

[Wesley Morris]

Means they're probably, I don't know. Use the fish. Okay, now wait, hold on. You actually are starting to make some sense. Yeah, this is. Well, no, no, no, no, no.

[Bill Simmons]

So I have a counter though. I think Ennis was so dumb about all this. I heard with him, like, oh, I should pretend I fit.

[Wesley Morris]

He doesn't respect her at all.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, yeah, I understand that as like a choice, but man, ridiculous that you would never even open it.

[Wesley Morris]

Use it.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He never even saw the note.

[Wesley Morris]

He never opened it. They went.

[Craig Horlbeck]

For how many years was he doing this? He never opened the box.

[Bill Simmons]

So, like.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's. It's.

[Craig Horlbeck]

But it's a sign of how wrapped up he is and everything.

[Wesley Morris]

I will say it's such a great character. Yeah, right.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Because it's stupid of him.

[Wesley Morris]

It's so. He. This Jack Twist. Jack Twist is a great fucking name. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Ennis is twisted up in his feelings, his common sense, his decision making.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Like, but also maybe actually fish and eat the fish. I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

But this raises.

[Wesley Morris]

Jack was maybe. Maybe Jack was like bringing steaks or something.

[Bill Simmons]

This raises. I had this on unanswerables, but we could put it in Pick and nits. What did these guys do for a week if they weren't fishing? Unless it was just straight sex for 24 hours a day. Like, they.

[Craig Horlbeck]

They weren't like hanging out, going on walks.

[Wesley Morris]

They're just. Yeah, but that's the thing.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Like, but you think they.

[Bill Simmons]

You wouldn't need the fishing. What else are they doing? Are they playing? There's no tv. Are they doing, like, hikes?

[Wesley Morris]

You know what I think? You know what?

[Bill Simmons]

I think they're like, hey, let's do.

[Wesley Morris]

A hike Jack twist. I'm sure Jack brought the fishing gear.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I guess.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they would have had to have fished.

[Wesley Morris]

I would think. We're not saying they.

[Bill Simmons]

What are they gonna do?

[Wesley Morris]

Jack?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Probably they're gonna go kill elk.

[Wesley Morris]

Every time they used Jacks. They didn't use Ennis'. Like, maybe Jack was bringing other stuff. But just in the story, the thing that's beautiful about it is the way time passes and she names all the geological right. And physical locations that they spend all this time. You're like, scene. Yeah. Oh, my God. You guys went all over. They spent a lot of time together. But. And it. It still, when they have that fight, Jake Gyllenhaal's character, like, Jack still is like. Like, you think you might be able to get by on 2 high altitude once or twice a year, but not me. I need to be a lot more than twice a year at this altitude anyway.

[Craig Horlbeck]

What's the altitude.

[Wesley Morris]

Going to Mexico.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Do you. Do you not last as long at altitude?

[Wesley Morris]

Nah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Me personally, no. Like in general.

[Bill Simmons]

High altitude because. Not an issue.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I don't know why he pointed out high altitude.

[Wesley Morris]

It's just a great line.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And it's a great, great line. I don't know if you, like, don't last as long at high altitude or if that's a thing. I didn't know why.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, there. Well, I mean, if you think about what he's asking, are you get tired quicker? The only place that Ennis will go is that far. He doesn't want to leave his area.

[Bill Simmons]

I was trying to.

[Wesley Morris]

And they're just. It's so secluded.

[Bill Simmons]

I was trying to think of the funniest thing they were doing to kill time when they were hanging out. And it. It's Definitely a board game. Cards. It's like they're playing spades or they're playing Monopoly. I just, it's like, God damn, I knew I shouldn't have sold you the oranges, saying, oh, you always get me with the oranges, Jack Twist.

[Wesley Morris]

But I actually love that we are sitting here talking about how these two men spent their non fucking time.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they're there in a week in the middle of nowhere. I know how to have fish.

[Wesley Morris]

But, but can I just say that the thing that I have not cried yet and I'm not going to, I take it all back. But I think that the thing that is so moving about this movie in so many ways and the thing that I could not have appreciated as a 29 year old or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Is what love is. And love at some point becomes so much about so much more than the sex.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And I think that one of the.

[Bill Simmons]

Things I tell Craig this all the.

[Wesley Morris]

Time, I mean as, as marital advice, as a married person to another married.

[Bill Simmons]

Person, it's boss, you know, in the HR when we do like our HR reviews is well, I have to give him some right now.

[Wesley Morris]

Which is what? Just.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's not all about the sex, Craig.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

There'S more to life.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, but, but truly, honestly, I think that like it was so dumb of me or like I think that the, the, the real kind of social genius of this movie and the people who hated it and never saw it but accused it of being activist, they didn't understand what the activism really was. The activism is that these men are not shown screwing each other's brains out every 15 minutes. It's that we understand that what is going on on these trips, or at least I watching it as a, as a person in a relationship and in love with somebody right now, is that there is so much more happening in these years than the fucking. And the real radicalism is that these two men have found a way to live more or less in harmony until Ennis gets in his feelings and wants to murder. And that we've definitely never seen before. Like where the three of us can sit around and talk about how romantic this movie is.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And especially the other relationships are so.

[Wesley Morris]

Bad and the other one, good ones are so bad. And think about this. This. It's happening in nature, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

It's happening in the outdoors, in God's country.

[Bill Simmons]

It's pretty rare when a movie can pull off when you're upset that the characters didn't end up together. I mean, Casablanca is one of the most famous Movies of all time. Right. That's. This is something that's been happening forever. But movies try to especially like every rom com tries to do this. Every sort of whatever. And it's a hard plan to land.

[Wesley Morris]

But here's another subcategory for you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

When the relationship doesn't work out because one of the characters made a stupid choice or made a principal choice that isn't stupid, but is principal.

[Bill Simmons]

Or in Manchester by the Seas case. Burn their house down.

[Wesley Morris]

Whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's the worst case scenario in this.

[Wesley Morris]

But when the. But. But that doesn't count because it's not a love story. But when the love story doesn't work out.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Because somebody just can't do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

That is really. That's a very tricky and to me really moving way of thinking about love too.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what's a good version of this, weirdly, is big.

[Wesley Morris]

Ooh. Oh, interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Even though it has not aged well because.

[Wesley Morris]

Because she's talking about bad smoothie.

[Bill Simmons]

The kid's about to be 12 again and she's like, hey, give me a call in a couple years. Like, whoa, We've talked about it. Rewatchables. But it's like that kind of. These two actually might have been soulmates. And it just can't work out because, by the way, he's actually 12.

[Wesley Morris]

I think Elizabeth Perkins would have waited. I think she really would have.

[Bill Simmons]

She's great in that movie.

[Wesley Morris]

She sure is.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, we have a couple more categories before we go. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson. No. Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collins were at Daniel Plainview, Long Legs or Wilford Brimley in the Firm?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we. Can we test drive Sam Jackson's role in this.

[Wesley Morris]

As the David Harbour character?

[Bill Simmons]

Perhaps not a lot of blacks in this movie. I don't.

[Wesley Morris]

Not a lot. There is zero.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's zero.

[Wesley Morris]

Would you. Are you expecting to see some.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just trying to figure out how Sam Jackson.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, if they were making this movie now, they would. They would find a way to put a black person in it. And I would object. Could Sam Jackson was Kanye west, which.

[Bill Simmons]

Could Sam regionally fishing. Fishing. Like near these guys.

[Wesley Morris]

Why do we know the.

[Bill Simmons]

Are those guys doing? That's like Sam Jackson.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, what would Doris be doing?

[Bill Simmons]

Doris.

[Wesley Morris]

Doris Burke.

[Bill Simmons]

I want you to watch Jack Twist how he maneuvers these sheep around. There is nobody better. He is in full scale. He knows what his herd is and what the other herd is. And this is just a master Class, Wesley.

[Wesley Morris]

Nobody cooks beans like Jack Twist.

[Bill Simmons]

Just want to ask for who gets it. One of the tougher ones in a while because it could go the movie. Heath Ledger or Ang Lee. And Ang Lee won the Oscar and score won the Oscar.

[Wesley Morris]

I think you give it to the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it goes. I'm down with that.

[Wesley Morris]

Is that why you honor everybody?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's just the just thing to do. Probably unanswerable questions at the end. So Jack Twist had kind of moved on to our guy David Harbour.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Begrudgingly.

[Wesley Morris]

Begrudgingly. He was never over. This is a love of your life situation. But also Jack made it clear, like I need to Twist.

[Bill Simmons]

Did we need it and did we need Ennis at the end to be like. He goes up against the shirt. It's like this guy and just whips it. Why don't you give this to the cabin guy? It just gets bad.

[Wesley Morris]

But you know who didn't come see the parents?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

David harbor didn't offer to bury the ashes or take Brokeback Mountain. David Harbor.

[Bill Simmons]

This is really good stuff. Here for unanswerable questions. In 2010, Anne Hathaway gave an interview about this movie and she said she had no idea whether Loreen told the truth or not in the phone conversation after Jack died. I love that it gets better. She shot two takes of the scene. One in which Lorene knew what was going on and knew about the gay bashing and one in which she had no idea it was a terrible accident with a car tire. Shots from both takes were edited together in the final movie. And she still doesn't know what Ang Lee thought the character knew. And she says Aang knows the truth in her head. It's not important to me. The ambiguity is what is the strength of the scene and why it's heartbreaking.

[Wesley Morris]

Can we just.

[Bill Simmons]

Great stuff by Ang Lee.

[Wesley Morris]

Ang Lee, man, do this one way.

[Bill Simmons]

Do this this way. And I don't know what I want.

[Wesley Morris]

He had two editors on this movie, I believe, and one of whom, one of them passed away during post production and or at some point during the production of the movie. And I, I just. I. It. I love Anne Hathaway so much as a professional person.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And I love that she. I love listening to her talk about how she does her job and trades.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. She took shit for really loving being an actor and being kind of artsy fartsy.

[Wesley Morris]

But this is how we got where we got.

[Bill Simmons]

Now it's back. People are back in. Like Devil Wears Prada too. Is going to make a Kajillion dollars. And that's going to be her exclamation point. Career moment, I think.

[Wesley Morris]

Which if it's good, I have mixed feelings about. But either way, I just. Enough with. Enough with these AAR prequels.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. Like, this is a sequel I fully support. I want to know what's going on with these characters.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, do you really.

[Bill Simmons]

Adrian Grenier of a food truck. He makes a hell of a grilled cheese. He set up in Boston, Louisiana.

[Wesley Morris]

Not in Eric Adams, New York, he doesn't.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna leave that alone. What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I'm just gonna be really basic and ask for the shirts.

[Bill Simmons]

So the shirt sold on eBay in 2006 for $101,000. I have no idea what the worth it this 2006. I think now there would be probably especially the Heath Ledger one. Yeah, yeah. Coach Finock Award, Best life lesson.

[Wesley Morris]

Wait, what? I can't remember with this category. Is it as expressed in the movie or the lesson I've learned about life from the movie?

[Bill Simmons]

It's the lesson from the movie.

[Wesley Morris]

Follow your heart.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's. I was going to say when you're in love. When you're in love.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Although the movie does have some advice for everybody else. What is it? If you can't fix it, then you got to stay in it? Or if you can't. If you can't fix it, then you got to stand it. Like I had.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a he. There's an NS quote in here when he says, when you got nothing, you don't need nothing. I was like, that's pretty good. That would have been a good high school yearbook quote.

[Wesley Morris]

That's. That's. I. That defeatism is not working for me. I think Annie Pearls fixing it and. And staying in it. That's. That's genius. And true.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have for double feature choice?

[Wesley Morris]

Moonlight. I would.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought Dark Knight to get both sides of Ledger.

[Wesley Morris]

Wow. Interesting. Oh, that's great. I love that.

[Bill Simmons]

But I like the Moonlight's good too, though.

[Wesley Morris]

I like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Who won the movie has to be Heath Ledger. Tough beat for Ang Lee. I don't know what else he had to do. He's doing different takes for Anne Hathaway, setting the scene, putting it together.

[Wesley Morris]

He got a little Academy Award. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Heath Ledger wins it, though. I think this plus the Joker, he becomes one of the most beloved actors, I think, of this century. But also one of the great what if acting careers.

[Wesley Morris]

But the interesting thing about him is the myth of him is really about the things that we've been talking about. It's all the what ifs. Right. It's not like his myth. The myth isn't like, is he still alive? Or the scandal of his death. I mean, it really is about the work he did not get to do. And that, that to me feels really rare.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig Horbeck first, first time in the new set with his own camera. I know, it's really exciting stuff. Yeah, it's getting. It's almost like the offensive coordinator's camera in NFL.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I'm in the bo.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I feel like I'm doing a testimonial on Love Island.

[Bill Simmons]

You should wear like a Niners warm up jacket as your Steeler's OC jacket with the headphones on.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah. I had not seen this, nor had Liz. We watched it together.

[Bill Simmons]

What? I know Liz is like, she loves Jake Gyllenhaal the most.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I know. I don't know. I was 10ish when this came out. I don't know. It's just like for some reason I never saw it. We both absolutely loved it. Just a beautiful movie. The end particularly is my favorite part. The last line of the movie you guys didn't mention, which Liz and I talked about for 20 minutes.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, I meant to do it.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Oh, Jack, I Swear.

[Wesley Morris]

Jack, I Swear.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Beautifully vague and devastating.

[Wesley Morris]

What a Diane Warren song that turned out not.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought about putting that in unanswerable questions, but I think it's supposed to be unanswerable, which is the whole point of Jack, I Swear.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, we talked about it. We're like, what does he mean? And it was almost like it's not even about that. Like, like you kind of know exactly what he means, even though the words don't make sense.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, well, in the, in the story there's this great, like that that happens at the very end of the story. And so that's accurate to the short story. Annie Pearls has this great line, this paragraph that basically where she says, answering. He's answering a question Jack never asked him. He never asked Jack to swear to anything. But here he was doing it anyway. It just like he was so carried away. I mean, this character is so amazing. The, the ways in which he's always fighting himself and then these moments of truth come out and they come out wrong. But that to me, at the end of the movie is the one moment where he says an honest thing that isn't also using his fists or you know, his forearms.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

To express it.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's one of the best movies of the 21st century. It's also such.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't believe you haven't seen it. I know, but it makes sense. Like, you were 10.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

When are you going to cue that one up? When you're an adult, you know?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah. And so I'm so happy that I got to watch it. It's also such a depressing example of the decline in movie going. This movie made 180 million, which now is like 300 million.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Which is insane. Like, this movie would have to be a TV show now because.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Movies are not a place where people go to challenge themselves. Like, I can't believe this movie made double what crash made in 2005. Crash made 90. This made 180. And the fact that people in America were, like, willing to go to this movie in 2005, challenge themselves, sit through an adult drama like this is just so remarkable and would definitely never, ever happen now. Have to be a TV show. It would be probably a really great 10 episodes that would win Emmys, but it wouldn't be a movie.

[Wesley Morris]

Wouldn't be a movie. Couldn't be a movie.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Couldn't be a movie.

[Wesley Morris]

It would definitely, definitely be a 10 episode Apple TV situation.

[Bill Simmons]

I do think as good as this movie is, the two actors have to be awesome in it for it to get to where it got to.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It all has to work.

[Wesley Morris]

It all has to work.

[Bill Simmons]

You could say that with a lot of movies, but I think this one in particular, if you even mess up one of the parts, I think the movie gets. The balance gets.

[Wesley Morris]

I also think it's like this intangible thing where the two actors really have to. You have to believe that these two people. The one moment you allow yourself to think about this as something other than a story being told and that there was a production and people were on set all the time. You have to believe that these two people. When Ang Lee says, cut, these guys are going to walk off and get a cigarette or a beer together or coffee or, you know, stand under a blanket to get. You have to believe that these two men playing these parts really do love each other.

[Bill Simmons]

There's an alternate universe where this movie is made with like, Ashton Kutcher and Orlando Bloom.

[Wesley Morris]

This is why.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's like.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, you mean. And that's. You mean period 2005 report? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

They can't get anybody else. And it's like, well, it's Ashton Kutcher's.

[Wesley Morris]

A name I'm interested in because in the story, they're not really good looking men. They're like, they're just men who.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, I would. I probably would be attracted to both these guys in the, In Annie Pros's story, but they're not, they're not getting movie parts in 2005 based on the way she's written them.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

And there I. I think that there is something about a Danny McBride or a Shane Gillis, like more average looking guys who. I don't. Are Jesse Plemons. I mean, these. We're saying these guys are too old, but, like, I think there are all kinds of ways to read. I know what you mean.

[Bill Simmons]

More regular guys.

[Craig Horlbeck]

We don't have regular looking leads.

[Wesley Morris]

There's no. This doesn't exist anymore. Right.

[Craig Horlbeck]

There's no Gene Hackman.

[Wesley Morris]

So the. To go. It really is to go that route. You kind of almost have to look in unusual places.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And I think, I honestly think that if you, if, if Ang Lee were like, if the Ang Lee that made Ride with the Devil and Ice Storm and you and Hulk, if that guy got a hold of Those of Danny.

[Craig Horlbeck]

McBride, Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, maybe. But there's too much baggage.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Too much comedy bag.

[Wesley Morris]

The baggage with Shane Gillis and Danny Mc Bride is just. It's just. It just weighs less. You could probably get away with.

[Bill Simmons]

Hold on. Shanko on the phone. He's turning this idea down.

[Wesley Morris]

He didn't like it.

[Bill Simmons]

He said no.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Creeped him out.

[Wesley Morris]

Did he creep him out?

[Bill Simmons]

He. He officially passed.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, all right, well, that's on him. We'll get Nathan Fielder now.

[Bill Simmons]

Nathan Fielder.

[Wesley Morris]

That wouldn't work.

[Bill Simmons]

Prepared for anything for him. That wouldn't work. Craig Corbeck. Thank you, Chris. Thank you. First one in the new set, so.

[Wesley Morris]

Great, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Great time. I forgot we're doing a podcast like 10 times.

[Wesley Morris]

This is like. It's beautiful in here.

[Bill Simmons]

Wesley Morris, you're back. We're filming another one later that'll probably run two episodes after this that I'm excited about. Great to see you as always, my friend.

[Wesley Morris]

Great to see you.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks for having me.

[Wesley Morris]

You're welcome.