‘Disclosure’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Wosny Lambre

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Disclosure" Episode from The Rewatchables Podcast

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Rewatchables
• Host/Author: The Ringer
• Episode: ‘Disclosure’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Wosny Lambre
• Release Date: December 10, 2024
• Description: In this episode, Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Wesley Morris delve into the 1994 film Disclosure, exploring its themes, performances, and lasting impact.

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1. Introduction and Episode Overview

The episode begins with Bill Simmons announcing an upcoming live show collaboration with Lionsgate for a Den of Thieves sequel, emphasizing the limited availability of tickets and the anticipation surrounding the sequel's release.

Notable Quote:

• Bill Simmons [02:05]: "There's a lot to talk about with Disclosure, and we're about to dive into it."

2. Initial Impressions of Disclosure

Disclosure, described as a corporate intrigue erotic thriller directed by Barry Levinson, serves as the primary focus. The hosts discuss their first encounters with the film during the pandemic when streaming habits led them to revisit it.

Notable Quotes:

• Wesley Morris [04:13]: "I was watching damn near three movies a day."
• Bill Simmons [03:28]: "How the fuck did this happen?"

3. Plot and Thematic Exploration

The discussion centers on the movie's bait-and-switch approach, initially presenting itself as an erotic thriller with strong sexual elements, only to pivot into corporate espionage. This unexpected genre shift left audiences perplexed.

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan [05:21]: "Because Michael Douglas had done Fatal Attraction and Basic Instinct, people expected another erotic thriller."
• Bill Simmons [06:14]: "It's a sexual harassment movie that's really about men's fear of the 1990s as women start taking their jobs."

4. Technological Predictions vs. Reality

The hosts analyze the film's portrayal of the Internet and virtual reality, noting how Disclosure predicted certain technological advancements but misjudged their societal applications.

Notable Quotes:

• Wesley Morris [10:09]: "Apple's intelligence thing, like, you have an assistant with you."
• Bill Simmons [10:25]: "The metaverse is way more interesting."

5. Character Analysis: Michael Douglas and Demi Moore

A significant portion of the conversation is dedicated to the performances of Michael Douglas and Demi Moore. They highlight Douglas's versatility in playing the everyman with a hidden dark side and Moore's embodiment of a calculating antagonist.

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan [12:40]: "He was able to develop such unique chemistry with every single female on screen."
• Bill Simmons [15:28]: "She's the hottest non-nude sex scene ever."

6. Social Themes: Sexual Harassment and Corporate Culture

The episode delves into the film's commentary on workplace dynamics, consent, and the struggles women face in corporate environments. The hosts appreciate the movie's attempt to address these issues, despite its flawed execution.

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan [25:28]: "The conversation about consent is verbatim, the conversations that we ended up."
• Wesley Morris [71:15]: "The movie shows what the typical corporate culture is, which is like, leave your humanity at the freaking door."

7. Notable Scenes and Rewatchable Moments

The hosts recount several memorable scenes, such as the awkward elevator encounter, the climactic courtroom deposition, and the VR hotel room sequence. These moments are highlighted for their blend of humor, tension, and thematic relevance.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons [43:04]: "The hottest take award mine, I already gave. I think Demi Moore's two best roles ever were sitting almost fire in this movie."
• Van Lathan [57:11]: "The dream sequence is the most hilarious scene in the movie."

8. Criticisms and Weak Points

While appreciating many aspects of Disclosure, the hosts critique certain plot inconsistencies, unrealistic character actions, and the underdevelopment of supporting characters, particularly the protagonist's wife.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons [43:26]: "The weak link of the movie is the wife."
• Van Lathan [69:35]: "The wife is the weak link of the movie. She doesn't add anything in any way."

9. Comparisons with Other Films and Directors

Comparisons are made between Disclosure and other films like Basic Instinct, Fatal Attraction, and works by directors like David Fincher and Brian De Palma. The hosts discuss how different directorial approaches could have altered the film's reception and depth.

Notable Quotes:

• Wesley Morris [80:06]: "Freaky directors like De Palma might have taken this over the top."
• Bill Simmons [80:29]: "If Fincher directed it, Disclosure might have been one of the great '90s movies."

10. Legacy and Cultural Impact

The conversation concludes with reflections on Disclosure's place in '90s cinema, its influence on contemporary discussions about technology and workplace ethics, and its relevance as a cultural artifact.

Notable Quotes:

• Wesley Morris [103:15]: "The movie does a good job of predicting the white male angst and the identitarian discourse we're having today."
• Bill Simmons [103:33]: "This is just what people thought and acted and thought was a good idea in 1994. It's interesting to watch in that context."

11. Final Thoughts and Takeaways

The hosts express appreciation for Disclosure as a multi-layered film that, despite its flaws, offers valuable insights into the era's societal and technological sentiments. They recommend it as a watch for those interested in '90s cinema and its portrayal of emerging workplace and technological themes.

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan [103:41]: "It's a cultural case study. Kids in school should watch this to understand what people were thinking in the '90s."
• Wesley Morris [103:55]: "It's entertaining while also being a conversation starter about important topics."

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Conclusion: The Disclosure episode of The Rewatchables podcast provides an in-depth analysis of the film's multifaceted narrative, performances, and its commentary on technology and corporate culture. Through engaging discussions and notable quotes, Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Wesley Morris offer listeners a comprehensive understanding of why Disclosure remains a significant, albeit controversial, piece of '90s cinema.

Transcript

[Todd McShay]

What's happening? It's Todd McShay, and I'm back with a new home and a new show at the Ringer and Spotify. The McShay Show. It's a video and audio podcast coming to you year round with all my NFL draft information, big boards, mock drafts, and player movement. Plus, I'll be chatting with some of my best friends in football, including some of your favorite football analysts during the week. We'll have episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays that will include discussions about my player rankings, who's rising, who's falling, and who your NFL team should be keeping an eye on. Plus, we'll be reacting each week to the College Football Playoff polls and giving you previews and picks for each Saturday slate. In addition, I'll have episodes on Saturday nights with my immediate reaction to the full day in college football every week. So if you love the college game, the NFL, the draft, or all of it like me, make sure to like, follow, subscribe and get ready for the McShay show on, on the Ringer, Spotify and wherever you watch or listen to podcasts.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode of the Rewatchables is presented by State Farm. There's a lot to say when buying a new home or car, but only one thing to say when you need to help to protect them. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Come to me.

[Van Lathan]

Focus Features invites you to succumb to the darkness. From director Robert Eggers comes a masterpiece of horror.

[Bill Simmons]

He is coming.

[Wesley Morris]

This creature is a force more powerful than evil.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's death itself.

[Van Lathan]

No, we did R17n meter without parent only theaters Christmas Day. Special engagements in Dolby and imax.

[Bill Simmons]

The Rewatchables brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. Yeah, find group chat on the Ringer NBA show. It's wise you can find higher learning.

[Van Lathan]

On fire right now.

[Bill Simmons]

On fire. Is that what the kids are saying?

[Van Lathan]

That's what the kids are saying. We're on fire.

[Bill Simmons]

Fire. Learning Ringerverse with Van Lathan. Exciting news for us on the Rewatchables. We're partnering up with Lionsgate. We've already done Den of Thieves as a pod. We're doing it again because the sequel's coming out this winter and we have space for a very limited number of listeners to join us for an intimate live show on December 16th in downtown Los Angeles. Van is going to be involved. Space is limited, so if you don't get a ticket, don't worry, we'll do more big shows, bigger audience shows next year. But for now, if you live in LA and you're free next Monday, December 16th. Register now at Bit Lys Rewatchables Den while space permits, or just click the link in this episode's description. Hope to see you there. There might not be another Rewatchables episode after this week because we're about to do Disclosure, and I don't know what the hell's gonna happen, but it's next.

[Demi Moore]

Nobody has to know. Nobody gets hurt.

[Van Lathan]

Critics call Disclosure entertaining, provocative, sizzling, sexy.

[Bill Simmons]

This is a bomb we're sitting on that can blow everything sky high.

[Van Lathan]

Thrilling, dazzling, powerful, riveting.

[Bill Simmons]

We're gonna bury them all right. Michael Douglas, Demi Moore.

[Demi Moore]

You have no idea what you're up against.

[Wesley Morris]

We'll see.

[Van Lathan]

Disclosure. Rated R. Now playing.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so I don't know why three guys are doing this movie. I just want to acknowledge it coming out of the gate. It's a corporate intrigue erotic thriller.

[Van Lathan]

We don't have to do that anymore. We don't have to.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, in Trump's America, we're fine. No, the reason we're doing this is because this is now one of the funniest movies of the 90s. I have no idea how to even explain how this movie happened. I saw it in the theater. I was excited to see it in the theater. It did really well in the box office. And then the years start passing and the Internet forms into shape and habits change and people change. And now this movie is like, how the fuck did this happen? W. You suggested it.

[Wesley Morris]

So during the pandemic, 2020, early 2021. Like, I was watching damn near three movies a day.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And between whatever your different streamers have available, sometimes you just end up on Amazon or YouTube and just rent movies. And, you know, when you're renting a movie, you get to watch the trailer first. And I'm like, all right, Demi Moore, Michael Douglas.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, okay.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, basically a freaking. Exactly. And I'd never even heard of the movie before, much less seen it, so I popped it in and, you know, you think you're in some sort of erotic thriller, which there's definitely a lot of elements to that in the movie, but it turns into something completely different throughout the course of it. And I just was fascinated by it as a document, honestly.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you. What's your history with this movie, Van? How many years?

[Van Lathan]

Going all the way back to. I had that scene on one of my mixtapes that I had back in the Day.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, no.

[Van Lathan]

I had VCR mixtapes of different things. And I had that scene on one of the mixtapes. Oh, no.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so here we go.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, we're off. What I remember about the movie was the bait and switch that people felt when they saw it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

Because Michael Douglas, a couple of years before that had done Basic Instincts, of course.

[Bill Simmons]

And a couple years before that, Fatal Attraction.

[Van Lathan]

So this was the third in what people thought was going to be the erotic trilogy of Michael Douglas. Those two movies have pretty outrageous sexuality throughout the whole thing. This movie doesn't.

[Wesley Morris]

No.

[Van Lathan]

For one scene, it's ratcheted up and then it's referenced for the rest of it. And a lot of people were like, wait a minute, what's going on? And she was smoking hot at the time. So people wanted to see Demi in this way. And they got one blistering scene of it, and then it went away. And it was about corporate espionage.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And what the Internet was not gonna look like 30 years later. Right. Yeah. This was the trilogy of Michael Douglas. The everyman with his dick getting him in trouble. But in the end, he's going to get out of it.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And it turned out to be that crazy lady's fault. This is what the late 80s 90s were like. I wrote down. It's a sexual harassment movie that's really about men's fear of the 1990s that women were starting to take their jobs, which you feel all the way through. It's about this weird. The Internet's coming. What's this going to be? I remember seeing this movie. I didn't have email for two years until after I saw this movie. So he's getting emails popping up from no server. I'm like, well, that makes sense. Digital messages.

[Van Lathan]

They were FaceTiming.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they're FaceTiming. It's like, well, that seems realistic. And then finally, with the VR stuff with the gloves, it's like, well, maybe that's where things are going. And then you see it now, and it's just hilarious. That scene in the hotel room has to be one of the funniest scenes of the 90s.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. They have to find a way to sort of tie a bow on the plot stuff. Cause I think the movie just has so much to say about so many things, whether it be, you know, technology or whether we should embrace it or fear it. Women in the boardroom, sexual harassment, sexuality. Like, masculine. Like, this movie has so much to say about a lot of issues. And, you know, and it's trying to.

[Bill Simmons]

Do it in an hour and 58 minutes.

[Wesley Morris]

Wrap up. A plot and the freaking, you know, the VR goggles. The Oculus at the end was part of that wrap up. It wasn't great, but Dane was getting.

[Bill Simmons]

You're starting to think, what was that thing you got?

[Van Lathan]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

The Apple goggles.

[Wesley Morris]

You got the Vision Pro.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that what the Apple Vision Pro is? Like, do you just go into a virtual office and grab files?

[Van Lathan]

Well, no, but kind of.

[Bill Simmons]

You can.

[Van Lathan]

You can do different stuff. And then, you know, after a couple of minutes, your neck starts to hurt and you take it off and you're like, your girl and your dog are looking at you like, what are you doing?

[Bill Simmons]

What just happened? What world were you just in?

[Van Lathan]

But it's so funny about how much about the Internet the movie gets wrong. I remember there's one lady and she's standing up there. Oh, no, it's Demi Moore. She's giving her a thing and she's like, it's gonna be a place where there's gonna be no race, no gender. No. We're not even gonna think about any of those things. And then we get the Internet and we obsess about those things.

[Bill Simmons]

All it does is, like, pour gasoline on.

[Van Lathan]

All right, like, we were gonna do all of this stuff. Move files around. Nah, we wanted to play Angry Birds on our phones. That's what the Internet did.

[Wesley Morris]

But when you talk to people who were like, you know, technologists or whatever at the time, they were true believers. They really thought the Internet was gonna bring us closer, not have us be alienated. You know, like, you could talk to somebody in Beijing from your couch in Boston, and all of those things ended up being true. It's just not how we spent our time on the Internet.

[Van Lathan]

Just not in a way that we.

[Wesley Morris]

Thought that they were exactly.

[Van Lathan]

You were talking to the person in Beijing, but not to your mother. Like, you're talking to the person in Moscow, but you're never in the same room with anyone. It just didn't go the way we thought it was going to go. We thought it was going to add to, but it replaced. Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

It shifted in real time because I was in college in the early 90s when some people were like, in the computer room starting to email, and we were all like, what the fuck are those people doing? Like, what you can. And then eventually you could get information. I remember when I was in grad school, like, going to the library and you could use, like, Nexus, Lexus, stuff like that. But when I saw this movie in 94, we didn't know what the Internet was going to be, because the Net was. The other movie that came out was changeable. That's another one where they had this vision. Hollywood had this vision of what the Internet was going to be, and you would have these helpers. So in the Net, it was Mozart's ghost and you talk. And in this movie, it had that angel, and it was like this thing was going to help you and find you, and you could navigate the world with it. And then three years later, we had aol, and it was just like, yeah, I'm just going to send some emails to my friends.

[Wesley Morris]

It's funny, though, but, like, Apple's, like, Apple intelligence thing, that's the whole thing. It's like you have an assistant with you that's just kind of following you around.

[Bill Simmons]

Siri. Well, I wrote that. So the movie, the 2024 Internet Things, it kind of gets. Right. Angel is basically Siri. Email is basically email.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The video calls are now Zoom, and the VR is like, actually what the metaverse is. It's just. The metaverse is way more interesting.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I think it wasn't the technology that they got wrong. It was the application. It was how we would respond to it. Right. And the way that we responded to it was the way humans respond to things, which is the simplest, pettiest way. Like, what could we use it for? How could it make our lives easier? How can it. But in very small ways, like, literally the whole thing became, do you got games on your phone? Like, I mean, like, that's. And so this was. But I think I would watch Futurists from the Past. And I watched this one guy from, like, 1959, and he was in black and white. He goes, one day there's gonna be a device that's gonna be in your pocket, and you're gonna be able to do all your banking, book all your travels, do all your stuff from that device. It's like in 1959, he's saying this, and it seems like such a new world. And you have that device now and you're on pornhub.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You know, it's just like, you have.

[Bill Simmons]

That device, you're in pornhub watching this movie.

[Van Lathan]

Exactly.

[Wesley Morris]

Here's the thing, though, that I think a lot of people, you know, mention when they talk about basically how the Internet has developed. Like, I think when it was at its best is when there was less and less people on it. Right. Where it's just like these few, like, niche groups. You go on your forum, you talk about your top five rappers On Questlove's, you know, rap forum.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. Player dot com.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. And keep it pushing.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

It wasn't this fraught thing. But then, like, the more and more people, the more ubiquitous the Internet became, the worse it got. Like, that's just the reality of everything.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, this movie came out 30 years ago.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

It's amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

And in some ways it feels like a hundred years ago. And then another way is like, I don't know, this movie, this was a big deal when it came out. It was a big deal that Demi Moore and Michael Douglas were in a movie together. It was during that crazy Michael Douglas run where he. Which we've talked about before, but Romance in the stone, 1 and 2, Wall street, fatal Attraction, Black Rain, War of the Roses, Basic Instinct, this movie. American President, Ghost in the Darkness, the Game. He's probably the most bankable picking scripts actor we had. I don't think he was the best actor we had, but I think he had the best batting average of big market movies.

[Van Lathan]

He was able to develop such unique chemistry with every single female on screen.

[Bill Simmons]

That was a superpower. You're right.

[Van Lathan]

He was able to give you a completely different movie based upon the. He was in the American President. He's this charming, affable, vulnerable, most powerful man in the world.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And in Fatal Attraction, he is completely overwhelmed by the woman, as he kind of is in this one.

[Bill Simmons]

In Basic Instinct, he's shooter.

[Wesley Morris]

He's shooter.

[Van Lathan]

He's like a weird, you don't know if you should be rude type of.

[Bill Simmons]

Guy, but he's got the dark side in this movie because she alludes to it. And then in one of the depositions, talks about, like, vibrators, all this stuff they did. And she's like, I know, I know, Tom. I know. He keeps secrets.

[Wesley Morris]

It's like, what's going on with this movie? That's one of my favorite parts of the early part of the movie. It's like the first scene is him with his family and it's like he is Mr. Dad.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's the most generic family scene you could have.

[Wesley Morris]

He even makes a joke about like, oh, you didn't get the memo I was being dad of the year or whatever. He makes it and as soon as he gets to the office, like, don't worry, folks, I'm Michael Douglas. I'm still horny.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

So it's like, I'm dad of the year. I'm Mr. Wholesome, but I still got the.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they have to bring Dennis Miller into it to be like this guy's got more ass than a rental car.

[Van Lathan]

But I noticed it. But it was even the slight pat on the butt of the secretary, which.

[Bill Simmons]

Is like one of the craziest moments of the movie where it's like, oh, my God.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Bill Simmons]

You can't do that.

[Van Lathan]

And this is kind of like the Mad Men thing, when you would watch Mad Men back in the day.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

There's guys would watch Mad Men and there was two types of dudes that would watch. One type of dude would watch Mad Men and he would be like, damn, I can't believe they were able to do that. And the other guy would be like, bring that back.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

Like, look how good we had it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So we could drink in the office and do a drink.

[Van Lathan]

We can do it and smoke and get. And we had voluptuous women that we could say whatever we wanted to them was the days. But you know when you're watching the film that that's going to come back to bite him in the ass at some point. And it literally does.

[Bill Simmons]

And one of the reasons this movie is so funny is they circle it around at the end where at the end the assistant slaps him and it's like, oh, who thought that was a good idea? There's a lot of moments where just like, wow, who thought that was a good idea? But that was the mid-90s to me. More so the 90s resurgence she has, which starts with Ghost. She's in A Few Good Men, Decent Proposal, and then this movie you call a resurgence. Yeah. Cause she, after Saint, almost fired.

[Van Lathan]

I think it's a surgeon.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's Saint. She was big in the mid-80s and then she had some issues. But you look at her late 80s img, it's pretty rough. Ghost is the comeback. And then she. She. By the time this movie comes out, she's probably the most bankable actress we had. What's weird is it's the peak because after this, she has Scarlet Letter now and then Strip Tease and the Juror, and it's over. So this was the peak. She's never looked better in a movie. She looks unbelievable in this movie. And she's really believable, I think, as the. As the, you know, calculating off as temptress. It's just.

[Wesley Morris]

It's crazy. Cause, like, when you look at her in the film, it's like, all right, this is like a professional woman. And she has like a kind of inviting sort of nature to her. But then once this woman starts talking, you realize you're dealing with a stone Killer.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And that just doesn't let up the entire movie. And it's not a way that I'm used to thinking about Demi Moore not deploying her, like, ferocity in that way. But she was just like, yeah, I got these people in my sights and I'm gonna kill them. And she goes about the whole movie, almost pulls it off. But that's what I was struck by. I was like, oh, you know, this is a nice lady. You know, nice lady in a, you know, Kamala Harris sort of outfit, right? And like, no, she's a. She's an assassin.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's what he had with Basic Instinct, too.

[Van Lathan]

Reference there. So it they to me first. Okay, so you say she never looked better in the movie. It's facts, because I watched this on Prime Video, and then afterwards it suggested striptease. And just for research purposes, I had to revisit it, of course. So I revisited.

[Bill Simmons]

Coleco is fine.

[Van Lathan]

Come on, man. Let. Let. Let the boys play. Okay?

[Wesley Morris]

Let the boys play.

[Van Lathan]

And this is her at her, you know, shrimp tease. She got in super great shape, and it was a big deal. $12 million. She's gonna be new. This is her at her absolute. The absolute peak of, oh, my God, what a ridiculously beautiful creature. The problem that Demi Moore had is that the roles that she picked after this, she started trying to prove different things happening.

[Wesley Morris]

Serious?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, she started trying to prove different stuff. And then when the. What was it that you said? Is it the Scarlet or the Crucible or something like that? Yeah, she was going for the Oscar. They were doing all of that stuff. She never quite got there. Oddly, she might get there now having sort of a Demi Moore resurgence as we talk about it now with the substance and some other things. She's kind of back a little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

And that's back a little bit. She has two lines in the first four episodes of Landman, but is somehow second in the opening credits.

[Wesley Morris]

That's why when Bill asked, like, she was on top of my mind because of, you know, the movie that's doing pretty well commercially. Land, man. And then I had just watched her Hot Ones interviewed where she just eats these wings and she's, like, making fun of the dude the entire time. And I'm just like, wow. Like, this is a really charismatic actress who, you know, she's like 62 or something now, who, like, you know, when they get to be that age, Hollywood kind of just, all right, granny, we're taking you to the side door type of thing. But, like, she's back in A major way. And I'm like, we need more of this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, she. So. St. Elmo's. I had this as my hottest take. I'll just do it now. My favorite parts of hers were the St. Elmo's fire part and this part, because I think they both leaned into this side. That was really unique to her. Right. She's. There was a sexuality to her that not a lot. Kathleen Turner had it, Sharon Stone had it, but there weren't a lot of people that had it. And it was almost like she didn't want to unleash it in too many movies. Then when, like, Striptease is like, a terrible movie. Like, so that's.

[Van Lathan]

So Striptease.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the thing.

[Van Lathan]

Striptease was.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like a weird continuity comedy. I don't even know what it is.

[Van Lathan]

It was kind of the worst version of utilizing someone's sexuality in the movie. The movie was a comedy. There was no actual heat to the movie. The nudity itself seemed like a stunt.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Like shoehorning it in.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Come to see your nude. And there's not much movie left, underrated film of hers that I really enjoyed. You left out A Few Good Men. That was in. Did you say A Few Good Men?

[Bill Simmons]

I said it earlier.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. But people. GI Jane was a very polarizing movie at that time, but that also was a fantastic use of her physicality and her charisma, because in that role, she was. She carried the entire movie. Viggo Mortensen.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, she's great. And about last night, there's movies that I think if. Like, if you're going sliding doors movies she could have been in that she would have been awesome in. I think she would have been awesome in both Terminators. Like, if she'd been in Terminator 1, she'd been the perfect age. Terminator 2, I think she would have gotten jacked, like Linda Hamilton did. There's Kathleen Turner parts I think she would have been really good in. I think she would have been good in Romance. In the Stone, I think she'd been good in War of the Roses. So, yeah, you look at her IMDb and it's in a weird way, like, A Few Good Men, I think is probably her worst performance in a great movie because that Joe Galloway part is just a mess. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

It's tough. And it's crazy because her public life, her, like, she's such a big tabloid figure in terms of, like, who she's dating. And then there's the Ashton Kutcher she's dating. A younger guy. And that's like so much of the noise and the tabloid fodder around her is about her.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that was the 2000s and that.

[Van Lathan]

Kind of thing that was later on. Yeah. That was her relevance.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I mean when she started dating Bruce Willis, that was about as a listy as it got for a celebrity couple. Until we had Brad and Angelina. I really liked her. I think her and Douglas together, it made sense in the Douglas arc. Douglas was with Kathleen Turner, strong, confident, beautiful, great actress. Glenn Close, crazy confident actor who actually turns out to be crazy in the movie. Sharon Stone, all time irrational confidence performance. But he was always at his best kind of playing off really strong actors like that. But what was this movie actually about? I think is the real question. Cause it's not a sexual harassment movie. It's actually this corporate intrigue thing.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think I had to see it like five times to understand what the plot actually was. And I'm still not positive I understand it.

[Wesley Morris]

I think Barry Levinson, the director, producer extraordinaire, who's like, I didn't realize he's like produced like he hasn't directed anything that's been like, of any relevance, of like major relevance pretty much since this. But like he's produced a lot of like TV and like TV movies that I enjoyed. Oh yeah. And he does, it feels like he has opinions about corporate culture. These sort of titans of industry and what they're about. And what's funny is like when I hear Van talk about like the platitudes that Demise Moore is using at this like sort of shareholders meeting where she's talking about this product and it's like it's gonn to bring humanity together and all of these platitudes. And I think the message of the movie is like, it's all crap. These people are just like the Robert Barron's before them. They just want to make money. There's nothing different about this industry. But like when you hear some of the soaring rhetoric of especially early Zuckerberg and Jobs and Jeff Bezos and these guys, like they want the public to think that there's like this higher calling to this enterprise that they're pursuing. But realistically, like, what does Instagram do? They've opted optimize selling us pants with seven zippers.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Amazon makes it so that you don't have to leave your house to get toilet paper. What did they actually do to change the world?

[Bill Simmons]

Apple's a hardware company.

[Wesley Morris]

This isn't indoor plumbing or electricity. You know what I'M saying the idea that these guys have done something to change humanity, I think is bs. And I think Levinson quite presciently is calling BS on this whole culture, which I think is very interesting. But again, the movie just has too much to say about too many things.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I disagree, but that's a different podcast, so. What?

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, you disagree with the point?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I do.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you disagree about?

[Van Lathan]

Well, I think that guys like Jobs, Like, I think that there's a spectrum here, right?

[Wesley Morris]

Definitely.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. And so like, you know, Steve Jobs and Wozniak invented the personal computer, basically. Like they had a different view of the world. They took like computing out of that. Changed the world. Sure. So, like they took computing out of some place where the military was doing it and put a computer like in your home. That fundamentally changed the world. And I think if anything with Steve Jobs, he was chasing that high. And I think I'm not gonna be like, I'm not like a tech bro, but I think he kind of did it again in many different ways. Revolutionary. But what I would say the thing about this movie is, I think he's right, but I think the movie doesn't have the balls to be about what it wants to be about. I think the movie shoehorns the corporate. But obviously it's based on.

[Bill Simmons]

It's based on a book. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Michael Crichton book, who's got a difficult.

[Wesley Morris]

Relationship with women, to say the least.

[Van Lathan]

I think that this story wants to be about. It wants to be a very direct indictment of workplace culture and harassment and no means no. It's having a conversation, really, that we're kind of still having. We act like we. We're the first generation to have the conversation about consent. We're the first generation to have the conversation about sexual harassment. Yeah, we're the first generation. No, it's been being had for a very, very long time. This movie kind of wants to be about that. But in order to get people to have that conversation and nice to throw.

[Wesley Morris]

The sex in there, you got to.

[Van Lathan]

Throw a sex scene in there and you got to give them some half baked Internet mumbo jumbo corporate espionage to wrap it all up in. Because what they're really talking about is whether or not the current workplace structures that they have can last women entering into them. Because at the end of the movie, the lady gets the job. At the end of the movie, he gets patted on his butt. And his saving grace is that he's happy that a woman gets the job.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the guy who creates the angel Character like one of his computer programmers. There's that scene in the middle of the movie when he's like, douglas says, she got to you, didn't he? And he's like, what do you expect? They're smarter than us. Like, of course they're gonna rule the earth. The movie's really trying to dive into some of that stuff, but pretty casually, I agree with most of what W said because this ties into an idealism that existed in that 92 to 95 range where it's like, Quentin takes over. We're going to have our young, our version of jfk, right? All this good stuff is happening with technology. This is all. All the smart people, all the best and brightest are now going to drift here. And we're going to do in Seattle and Silicon Valley all these different places. And people were just really optimistic about stuff. And you kind of feel it in this movie. But what you said is right, because this is ultimately be a movie about Don Southern doesn't want to lose money because he's merging and he doesn't want to lose $100 million. He wants to make as much money as possible. There's some cockamamie scheme to frame Michael Douglas character because he fucked up the product line and that's it.

[Van Lathan]

The only thing I would say about that is. I don't want to get bogged down, but the only thing I would say is that Donald Sutherland is the. He's the devil of the movie. The virtue of the movie lies in the engineers and the people who are trying to create something. So that would actually change stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

You can't put that. Those chips in the CD ROMs by hand.

[Wesley Morris]

So. And again, what. And we're gonna get into again, for me, what age is the best? And these different things. And, you know, a lot of it is my biases, right? I think like, the engineers and the technologists that van are talking about, like, the people who are actually, like, you know, the truest believers in who we would say the most meritocratic. Like, they deserve to be in these positions in this world. They're not the ones who win. They're the ones who get trampled over. It's these corporate operators who end up winning. It's not the technically sound who you would assume in this technical industry.

[Bill Simmons]

The creators.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, the creators would be the ones and, you know, reaping all the benefits. Like. No, it's the same corporate sharks who reap all of the benefits. And the way that you get ahead in this world is to maneuver is to be a Mover. Be an operator and not be.

[Bill Simmons]

You love this.

[Van Lathan]

I'm wondering, is this making you uncomfortable yet, Bill?

[Bill Simmons]

Not at all.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, is Bill a corporate maneuver in Shark? Is that what's happening? He's moving the chess.

[Van Lathan]

I'm just looking right now to see what sweat.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm like.

[Wesley Morris]

I love this idea that Bill is the Donald Sutherland in the Ringer. He's moving the chess pieces, planning a merger.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's the plot really quickly. The CEO, Sutherland, he wants to retire after the merger. Tom Sanders, the Douglas character, he thinks he's going to get promoted to run City Rhymes. Demi Moore's character, Meredith, comes in. No, she's running it. We have the sex scene. Harassment stuff flies back and forth. First day, first day, first day. Harassment stuff flies back and forth. He figures out how to get his job back and that he's being set up to be fired for cause somehow gets all these incriminating things and then challenges her. And what really happened, which I think I figured out the fifth time I watched this movie, is she had fucked up originally with the product line, and she's trying to frame him because he was the only one who would be able to eventually figure out that she had fucked up. Which of course raises the question, why even do the sexual harassment stuff? Why not just say, from the get go, you fucked up the product line? This is more than a nitpick. It's just like, how about just from the get go, just blame him for the fact that the product line was fucked and you don't have to, like, buy him the wine.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, I have to be honest with you. I didn't make it till the end of the movie. Till at least, like, 1998. But I'll just be real with you. Like, I'm like, I'm serious. No, like, no idea. It was like, okay. But the overblown way in which they go about, like, just trying to make him look incompetent is so stupid.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the most convoluted crazy.

[Van Lathan]

And then he becomes Ethan Hunt.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like, he legitimately goes into it. Espionage, breaks into somebody's hotel room, the whole nine. The movie just becomes a whole different film. Courtroom drama film.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. There's a courtroom drama shoot in here.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's got that great lawyer character that was a very, like, 1990s. That female attorney who's going to use hard copy. Like that was basically Lesrie Abramson. Some really funny technology stuff in this movie, too, that I want to get to, but we got to take a quick break.

[Van Lathan]

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[Bill Simmons]

So the technology stuff, which is one of the reasons this became a rewatchable movie, it starts in the beginning when the little kid is like, dad, you have an email. Dad, there's an email. That happens. The video link up, sir. Like, the whole concept of CD ROMs being so incredibly important.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Just.

[Bill Simmons]

When was the last time a CD ROM existed?

[Van Lathan]

When AOL sent the CD ROM.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my goodness.

[Bill Simmons]

AOL 7.0.

[Van Lathan]

I thought it was Witchcraft. I'm like, yo, futuristic. Yeah. It's crazy.

[Wesley Morris]

Just the idea that you could skip a song on a CD like that. You didn't have to press fast forward on something like, hope that you got it, you know, right as the next song. So you just press the button and a new song would start playing was just like.

[Bill Simmons]

So we have somebody getting an email being ominous in a movie where it's like his email. Somebody would go to a computer and, like, the score would be like, dun, dun, dun. And then I guess they're saying the future is VR being able to work virtually, but you have to be in some sort of crazy universe with gloves to go find your files.

[Wesley Morris]

Reality was a big 90s obsession.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, where's this going? It's almost like when flying cars were an obsession in the 60s.

[Wesley Morris]

It was just this idea that you would leave the physical world and spend so much time, like, sort of fully immersed in some alternate.

[Bill Simmons]

And not in the office. Which, by the way, is kind of where we ended up during COVID That's.

[Van Lathan]

Why I was going to ask you, like, watching this during COVID when we were living in a virtual society, like, did it.

[Wesley Morris]

That's what I'm saying. I thought the movie was pretty good about, like, predicting future. Just like the FaceTime element of it.

[Bill Simmons]

All right.

[Wesley Morris]

That just seemed completely insane.

[Bill Simmons]

Which they stole from Total Recall. I think Total Recall invented that. Probably remember the FaceTime on the TV.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Either that or the Usher. You don't have to call video.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they have to.

[Wesley Morris]

One of the two. All of the technology in this stuff, like the, you know, the digital communication, the sort of the idea that, like, people would want to leave the physical realm and, like, be completely lost somewhere else. Whether they're doing their job or doing something else. And again, just, like, the creeping sense that this wasn't a good thing. That's what I felt like the movie was saying to me. Like, I know, like, this stuff seems new and exciting, but, like, the movie is very skeptical in a lot of ways.

[Van Lathan]

It's an art versus commerce movie in a lot of ways. It's a. How do we break ground and use new technology to go to different frontiers.

[Wesley Morris]

Do something cool, right?

[Van Lathan]

And then who's gonna profit from it? And is it going to be done in a way that's responsible or in a way that prioritizes doing something new and different? Like, I got the Vision Pro and I played around. Played around on the Vision Pro. And then the only thing that was super awesome about it was, like, you guys are making judgments. That's not what I'm gonna say. That's not what I'm gonna say. I see both of the looks on your faces.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm just. I just wanna hear.

[Van Lathan]

That's not what I'm gonna say.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just nervous.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not gonna say that. Watching NBA games on the Vision Pro is actually super duper.

[Bill Simmons]

You could see the Lakers not play defense in a totally different way.

[Van Lathan]

Why you gotta do this? Like, what. What's your. You gotta Let go in 2025, Bill. You gotta let go of vendettas. We got, like.

[Bill Simmons]

I just love making fun of the Lakers. How's that a vendetta?

[Van Lathan]

It happens.

[Bill Simmons]

You love making fun of shit.

[Van Lathan]

Like what? Like what?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. What do you like making fun of?

[Van Lathan]

The Celtics. But it was ridiculous. But. Yeah, so, like. But all of the things that Division Pro could do. And it's a very cool piece of. Yeah, but really what I'm doing is watching NBA games on it, pulling a shit. You should be doing anyway, doing all of that stuff. But it's more fun to do with somebody sitting right next to you. It's more fun to do with Kalika at your crib. It's more fun to do it that way. So I think we thought that we would be doing all of this amazing stuff with this technology. And don't get me wrong, there are people are. There are people that are. But we're just kind of not. We're just kind of like, passing the time with it, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

So Michael Creighton sold the movie rights for a million dollars before the novel was published.

[Van Lathan]

Before the novel was published.

[Bill Simmons]

Big dog in the book. The difference is.

[Van Lathan]

Wait, hold on for a second. He had a motherfucking man. He got a million books.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, I have this idea. Gives them the one paragraph description. They're like, here's a million dollars.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, that's man. Give it up to big crites, man.

[Bill Simmons]

So in the book, Tom obtains enough evidence the Michael Douglas character to overturn Meredith and Phil and they both get fired. But the merger doesn't go through and Tom doesn't receive his promotion. And then. Then Meredith and Phil get better job somewhere else. So it's a little cynical. Sure. It's like this actually worked out for them. They're in a better spot. $50 million budget made $214 million.

[Van Lathan]

Mammoth smash. Mammoth in 94 people love.

[Bill Simmons]

Michael Douglas got his dick. His dick got him in trouble again. That's like all they had to do in the commercial campaign.

[Wesley Morris]

That's all I had to do for the trailer.

[Van Lathan]

I'm telling.

[Wesley Morris]

Get that 399 rental going.

[Van Lathan]

The story of the movie was so robust. Like the story around the premise of the movie. It was like a. It was one of those things.

[Bill Simmons]

It was literally legitimately controversial.

[Van Lathan]

Like one of those things that the book was too. They were talking about like on the Today show. They were talking about it in. This is actually a movie where a woman sexually harasses a man. I'll say something about Demi Moore is casting that part.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Is really to make it believable.

[Van Lathan]

To make it believable, the actress that has to play.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we have a great cast. And what if for it. Because somebody else was supposed to get it. So we'll talk about that later.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Her sexual magnetism has to be like.

[Van Lathan]

But also the strength that she can dominate a man and turn heel.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a great part.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Creighton was saying that the reason he did it this way was because everyone would know the other way if it was the female that was being sexually harassed. It's like people the flipping it.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, that's what he said.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's. I'm just reporting. So he said the flipping it was what made it interesting because it made people kind of reevaluate what sexual harassment was.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I mean.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's also what made it so controversial.

[Wesley Morris]

I've never read the book. Talking to Sean outside before we came in here. He's like. The book is a little bit less ambiguous. It's like this woman is pure evil and she's come to ruin this poor great dad's life. Was the movie which is very similar.

[Bill Simmons]

To the Fatal Attraction theme.

[Wesley Morris]

I Don't think the movie is that 2D. I think this character is a little bit more 3D in terms of her ambitions.

[Van Lathan]

And at the end. Yeah, throughout the. At the end, they humanize her a little bit, but throughout the, she is straight up Lucifer incarnate. She's lying. And then even when they catch her in the lie, she doesn't pivot back. She doesn't say, my bad for lying.

[Wesley Morris]

She doubles down.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Like, at the end, you start to realize that she kind of is a woman that's getting grinded up in the boys club and is trying to survive it again.

[Wesley Morris]

That's why I think the movie's a little bit more three dimensional. I think what they're trying to say is there's no other way to be a C. Like, the way that you are one of these corner office executives is like, if somebody crosses you, you kill them. That's it. And you bring the power of the institution to bear on that person. You rally your big dogs around you and you kill them. And that's what she tried to do. And I think, to me, the movie is just saying this is exactly what a man would do in this position. There's like, quotes where there's like, when did I have the power? She had the power. Like, the movie is making.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. When he starts yelling at the man, that's one of the funniest scenes. He yells at the maid, hey, come on down here. I have the power. Yeah. Roger Ebert, not impressed by this movie. Two stars.

[Wesley Morris]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

He wrote it is an exercise in pure cynicism with little respect for its subject or for its thriller plot, which I defy anyone to explain. The theme is basically a launch pad for sex scenes. And yet the movie is so sleek, so glossy, so filled with possesso porn that you can enjoy it like a Sharper Image catalog that walks and talks.

[Wesley Morris]

But Jesus Christ, he was not feeling this movie.

[Van Lathan]

Insanely well written. I'll tell you this, though, watching the movie now, it is with just everything in the way things are now. And, like, kind of where I'm at, it is very unhorny. I mean, it's horny at the beginning, but it, for all intents and purposes, blows its whole wand after that scene. And then there is no more sexuality in the movie whatsoever. And that is the entire rest of the movie. This movie isn't in any way, to me, an erotic thriller. It has a. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It doesn't throw in, like, the sex scene with his wife where he starts to get carried away in it.

[Van Lathan]

Triple horn sex Scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Nothing.

[Van Lathan]

Like none of that stuff happens that the rest of the erotic thrillers all have it. It doesn't exist in this one.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, we're going to Most rewatchable scenes. Today's the most rewatchable scene brought to you by Paramount plus this holiday season. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to watch every Mission Impossible on Paramount Plus. Van might do this. Catch up on the greatest action franchise of all time, starring Tom Cruise, of course. Now streaming on Paramount Plus. All right, rewatchable scenes.

[Van Lathan]

I'll do that right after I finish watching everything Taylor Sheridan has ever made. Every second of it.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm right there with you.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you caught up on Landman?

[Van Lathan]

No, not yet.

[Bill Simmons]

Layman's great.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, first rewatchable scene. Tom finds out he might be out of a job. Just throwing that in there. Second one. Tom and Meredith see each other for the first time. Right into Douglas, angrily talking, telling his staff about it. God damn, Garvin. What happened? I didn't get it. What? You're not the new vp. He announced it with some kind of secret. Meanwhile, he's got her installed up there in the office. They're bouncing back and forth like it's a fucking Tonight Show.

[Van Lathan]

Who?

[Bill Simmons]

Meredith Johnson. Who's Meredith Johnson? This isn't gonna affect the spinoff. This is a technical division. She doesn't know the difference between software and a cashmere sweater. Hey, come on now. What aren't you telling us? Hey, I might be out of a job, Lewin. How about that? Is that enough? You know what it's like out there. He did say something about the spinoff, didn't he? They didn't tell me about me. You think they're gonna tell me about the goddamn spin off? Which features some of the funniest workplace banter. It's so good, you can't even believe it.

[Wesley Morris]

So good, you can't.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just like you're watching it going, oh, my God. Like there's 19 different lines in this scene. That would be an HR violation.

[Wesley Morris]

100%. I had that as a rewatchable scene. When he realizes he got passed over and he goes and tells his sort of team or whatever, and they just start basically debating feminism right out of nowhere.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, let me guess. She's attractive. What does that have to do with anything? Great rack nipples like pencil erasers. She's attractive. Yeah, she's very attractive. You think she's sleeping with a Garvin? That's why he bought the Nordic Track. You know, it's A curse to be me. Life holds no surprises.

[Wesley Morris]

This is such a cliche.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, come on, Hunter. How do you think a cliche becomes a cliche?

[Wesley Morris]

You mean like size doesn't matter?

[Bill Simmons]

I have such a thing for you, Hunter. All right, all right. Please, can we get some work done here?

[Wesley Morris]

That's what they're doing. They're going back and forth. And Dennis Miller's like, you know, the typical guy, like, he's stealing the wise crack in.

[Van Lathan]

The redhead is the avatar for the cool chick in the office who can.

[Bill Simmons]

She can talk like the guys she can get like.

[Wesley Morris]

And also just like the avatar for like the new American workplace. There's like this woman who is an engineer and she went to school for it and she knows her stuff just as well as anybody else, but she's excited. Explaining to her male colleagues the difficulties of being a woman in these environments. And everybody being like, yeah, get over it. Whatever. I. I love that scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Next scene, Tom goes to have a drink with Meredith. Yeah. Stop by the office around 7. Picked out a bottle of wine for us. Yeah, the radar gun I had for Demi in this scene.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Araldis Chapman range. It's like she was throwing 108.

[Van Lathan]

It's nuts.

[Bill Simmons]

108. She's so good in this scene, I say.

[Van Lathan]

Cause there's no nudity in this scene.

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Van Lathan]

It is the hottest non nude sex scene ever.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

There's no.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll be back on the Mr. Skin podcast after this.

[Van Lathan]

Been a member since. Been a member for a long time. But it's. And it's. And maybe it shouldn't be, because I think that's part of the scene. Part of the scene is that if those roles are reversed, you're not in any way supposed to find that appealing. If those roles are reversed and it's the man that is pushing up the scene is kind of an indictment of the viewer in a way too, because she's being so aggressive and she won't take no for an answer. Honestly. There's a part of that that is. There's a part of that that's hot. And so you're supposed to feel a little nasty after you realize that this is a married guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you know, they have their history though too. Cause she's playing the history piece of it, like, come on, for old times sake.

[Wesley Morris]

And I think why I find the movie to be interesting is that the way they deploy it is that Michael Douglas kind of wants it. That's what I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, she says, rub my shoulders and I'LL listen to your problems. It's like, all right, don't rub your shoulders.

[Van Lathan]

You know? He's like, but there's a familiarity there to where it wasn't coming from someone whose shoulders he's never rubbed before.

[Wesley Morris]

100%. And he just keeps going and going and going.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you left out the part. She's like, let me see some photos of the fam. And he's showing her and she says something. He goes, well, she never lost the weight from the second baby.

[Van Lathan]

She just straight up. No, she straight up looks at her and goes, she looks like she always keeps food in the refrigerator. I'm like, God damn.

[Wesley Morris]

Killer, killer.

[Van Lathan]

She's like, the only thing in my refrigerator is a bottle of champagne and an orange. I'm like, okay, you trying to say my wife fat?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Then she starts doing the. Remember all the things we did?

[Demi Moore]

I think it's gonna be a bit inhibiting.

[Bill Simmons]

What's that?

[Demi Moore]

Domesticity.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you'd be surprised.

[Demi Moore]

Well, I don't imagine you can jump her from behind just because all of a sudden you get excited by the way she bends down to pick up the soap. You remember that, don't you?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I remember that.

[Demi Moore]

And you miss it.

[Bill Simmons]

I have my compensations. Of course you do.

[Demi Moore]

Life's a series of trade offs. Isn't that what you tell yourself?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I wouldn't trade what I have, if that's what you're saying.

[Demi Moore]

I wouldn't want you to. It's exactly why I can trust you. You have a lot more to lose than I do.

[Van Lathan]

And that, that was a very common trope back in the day.

[Bill Simmons]

Like old girlfriend comes back.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The old flames.

[Van Lathan]

Remember the ice cubes, flamin'and all of that stuff. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So then we just get going and a lot of dirty talk.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Doesn't really work out. We do get. This is Vin. W knows I'm gonna do this. We have this and we have single weight female, which are in the finals of guy getting a blowjob pretending he doesn't want one. But he's also enjoying it and start doing, oh, no, no.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh no, no. Oh no, no.

[Van Lathan]

Single.

[Bill Simmons]

I think single white female is better.

[Van Lathan]

It's better because he.

[Bill Simmons]

Because he knows who it is. He's like, ah.

[Van Lathan]

And then he.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll finish.

[Van Lathan]

But then after. But after a single white female, he gets.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a shoe in the eye.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. He gets angry. Yeah. He gets like self righteous. Oh, you don't have to tell her because I'm going to tell her. Yeah, you're going to tell your girlfriend the next day that her roommate gave you a blowjob, but you didn't know it was her.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Good luck, though.

[Wesley Morris]

No shot.

[Bill Simmons]

You knew it was me. So he gets out of there. She has the classical idea.

[Wesley Morris]

Hold on. Before that. The point that I love. The reason why he stops. He somehow looks at his reflection in a glass or something. He's like, is that classical?

[Bill Simmons]

I look like a wild animal looking in the mirror.

[Van Lathan]

And he's just like, oh, Easiest greyshot gordo of all time.

[Wesley Morris]

What am I doing? You know? He's like, what am I doing? And then he stops. And yeah, she. Some of the.

[Bill Simmons]

You stick your dick in my mouth and then you get an attack of morality. He responds, I have a family now.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What? You get back here and you finish what you started. That scene is fucking batshit crazy. It is batshit crazy.

[Van Lathan]

Walk out. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

With her bra.

[Van Lathan]

She's in her bra. She's leaning over.

[Bill Simmons]

She's.

[Van Lathan]

Get back here, guys. There's no other way to say it. The hottest woman in Hollywood at the time. You could maybe make an argument for Sharon Stone or whomever, Whatever. Begging. Begging for a guy to come back into the office and have disgusting, nasty sex with her. It's just an unbelievably magnetic scene. Yeah. And she's. And if you're a Demi Moore, you gotta give it all to that scene.

[Bill Simmons]

And she's great. Next, rewatchable. Dennis Miller on the double date with Douglas. Just blowing. Blowing his cover. Unbelievable. Doing Dennis Mower lines. You see, this is my big shot asshole. It's not like I'm getting scouted by the NBA.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, I don't know. If they just let him write all his lines. They all sound like things. Then it's more to say, got to you. Then the wife sticks up for him. I love that, Roddy.

[Van Lathan]

Tommy. Tommy, Love that.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's just have a nice evening. It's like, I'm pretty sure the evening's been ruined.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. But she's a ride or die.

[Bill Simmons]

And then that also leads to Tom getting mad at her after about the whole thing.

[Wesley Morris]

So that was one of my, like, when he actually comes clean to his wife and she just, like, goes down the list of, like, how much of a up this guy is.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

She's reading him the riot act. I. I just thought that was very well done.

[Bill Simmons]

He does. His response is sexual harassment is about power. When did I have the power?

[Van Lathan]

When.

[Bill Simmons]

Barry Levinson Outro music. Next scene. Let's go Tom's sexual harassment deposition is hilarious.

[Wesley Morris]

That we aroused.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Is excellent.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's got the lawyer dude. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Both lawyers. Very situation.

[Bill Simmons]

Really good lawyers. Yeah, you're right.

[Van Lathan]

He has a female lawyer.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

And she has the typical old male boys club lawyer.

[Bill Simmons]

So would a gynecologist get an erection when he sees.

[Wesley Morris]

Great question.

[Bill Simmons]

Just like, just playing all the hits. That's a very squirmy scene. And then Meredith's deposition.

[Van Lathan]

Baby.

[Bill Simmons]

When they find the 91 Paul Meyer.

[Demi Moore]

I said to get a nice chardonnay. I remembered that Tom liked white wine.

[Michael Douglas]

From those trips to Napa. That he was sort of an amateur wine connoisseur and that he would be impressed by an ice bottle.

[Demi Moore]

Yes.

[Michael Douglas]

Do you remember the wine?

[Demi Moore]

No.

[Michael Douglas]

The 91 Pallmeyer.

[Demi Moore]

Yes, that's right.

[Michael Douglas]

Do you know where your assistant got that wine?

[Demi Moore]

I assume that she got it from the liquor store down the street.

[Michael Douglas]

Would it surprise you to know, Ms. Johnson, that there isn't a single liquor store in Seattle that carries that bottle?

[Demi Moore]

Mrs. Ross is very resourceful.

[Michael Douglas]

Very resourceful. A bottle of wine you can't find within 500 miles of Seattle.

[Demi Moore]

I have no idea where she got the bottle of wine.

[Michael Douglas]

Isn't it true, Ms. Johnson, that you told Mrs. Ross three weeks ago that you wanted a bottle of the 91 Paul Meyer for your meeting with Mr. Sanders?

[Demi Moore]

That's not true.

[Michael Douglas]

And when she couldn't find it, you said, oh, what was that? It had such managerial brio. Oh, here it is. If you don't find the wine, find a replacement.

[Bill Simmons]

And they realize it's not sold within 500 miles or whatever. That's really good.

[Wesley Morris]

It's a bit of a baby wine guy. I was proud of that moment. It's like, how were you gonna get a Four years ago or three years ago, whatever it was at your local store three days ago.

[Van Lathan]

But see these. That's good.

[Bill Simmons]

Good legal stuff.

[Van Lathan]

That's the legal stuff. That's the courtroom drama stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

The next one is when he. He finally somehow gets the tape, which we'll talk about later. Nitpicks. And. And they play the tape, and she knows she's cooked.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then she turns into femme fatale.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Haven't you ever said no and meant yes? Mrs. Alvarez? It's like, oh, okay, we're going here now. Like, literally, like, sometimes no means the person wants to be overwhelmed.

[Van Lathan]

That's the. That's the equivalent.

[Bill Simmons]

We're recording this.

[Van Lathan]

That's the equivalent of the Sharon Stone interrogation scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Hundred percent.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then she has the big speech. Which Craig's gonna play now.

[Demi Moore]

Well, when he really wanted to stop, he didn't seem to have any problems doing it, did he?

[Michael Douglas]

And that's when you got angry.

[Demi Moore]

Of course I got angry. So would anyone.

[Michael Douglas]

Don't we tell women that they can stop at any point?

[Demi Moore]

Haven't you ever said no and meant yes? Mrs. Alvarez?

[Michael Douglas]

Up until the moment of actual dependent.

[Demi Moore]

Point is, he was willing. That tape doesn't change anything.

[Michael Douglas]

The point is, you control the meeting. You set the time, you order the wine, you locked the door, you demanded service, and then you got angry when he didn't provide it. So you decided to get even to get rid of him with this trumped up charge. Ms. Johnson, the only thing you have proven is that a woman in power can be every bit as abusive as a man.

[Demi Moore]

You want to put me on trial here? Let's at least be honest about what it's for. I am a sexually aggressive woman. I like it. Tom knew it. And you can't handle it. It is the same damn thing since the beginning of time. Veil it, hide it, lock it up, and throw away the key. We expect a woman to do a man's job, make a man's money, and then walk around with a parasol and lie down for a man to fuck her like it was still a hundred years ago.

[Wesley Morris]

Will.

[Demi Moore]

No, thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

We expect a woman to do a man's job, make a man's money, and then walk around with a parasol and lie down for a man to fuck her like it was still a hundred years ago. Well, no, thank you.

[Wesley Morris]

Classic. So good.

[Bill Simmons]

And for me, we still haven't hit the best scene in the movie yet because we get Tom sneaking into the hotel room to get the VR files. All of a sudden, this becomes a Star Trek movie for five minutes, and it's VR. He almost falls over into the VR cliff.

[Van Lathan]

And you know what's funny?

[Bill Simmons]

The special effects are so bad. And then the Demi Moore 3D avatar jump scare.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Out of nowhere, she comes in like.

[Wesley Morris]

She'S in the system.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

She's deleted the files.

[Van Lathan]

It's the fucking lawnmower man. Even when I fucking watch. When I watch that scene, when I watch that scene, I'm thinking, look how, like, harrowing that is. He almost falls off the thing. I do that for fun at home. It's a game on the Oculus called Frank's Plank Adventure.

[Wesley Morris]

And you got the Oculus and the Vision Pro.

[Van Lathan]

I'll go in, baby. It is called Frank's Plank adventure. And the funniest thing is watching people play it because you're walking across a plank between two gigantic skyscrapers. But you're in the VR. So the people that are walking across your living room are legitimately doing like this. They're scared. Some people cry and get down. So all of that technology, we use it for bullshit.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

I'm telling you, we use it to have a good time with it.

[Bill Simmons]

Not to get files.

[Van Lathan]

Not to get files.

[Wesley Morris]

Not to get files.

[Van Lathan]

And change the world. And espionage with the angels and all that.

[Wesley Morris]

Make sure you don't get fired from your company.

[Bill Simmons]

Shout out to Demi Moore's I'm angrily using my computer face.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, she's fired up.

[Bill Simmons]

I love that scene. It's so stupid. I also love. I had this in one stage, the best. This device that really was only in the 90s when somebody needed to get into somebody's hotel room and they would just call and be like, hey, I need my roommate up. It's 311. They'd be like, sure thing, sir. And then you just walk into the room and the maid's like, hello, sir.

[Wesley Morris]

He didn't even know his room.

[Bill Simmons]

I promise, this doesn't work in real life.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, that's the room.

[Van Lathan]

I always have questions about this because.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder, could anyone do this? They do it in Pacific Heights too. Melanie Griffith gets in there.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Like, people could get in their rooms and the security seemed to be lax.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, if room service is doing your room, the door is just open. How do they know who's actually staying there?

[Bill Simmons]

The big stockholder meeting. Showdown. Demi gets fired.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Tough.

[Bill Simmons]

Unrealistic, but fun to watch. And then the ending. Stephanie gets the job. Turns out she was a friend all along.

[Wesley Morris]

Who could have saw that coming?

[Bill Simmons]

Counting on you to be my right hand. Tom.

[Van Lathan]

We haven't even talked about that.

[Bill Simmons]

Talks about the son, the.

[Van Lathan]

A friend. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you a chemistry major? Yeah, I am. Happy music. Tom's got his job back and his family's still there. Demi Moore's out of a job and women won.

[Van Lathan]

There's one scene you're leaving out.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

By far the most hilarious scene in the movie. It's not even close. This is the funniest scene in the movie. The dream sequence.

[Bill Simmons]

I had that. In what stage? The worst. Because I hate it. Donald Sutherland making a move on him.

[Wesley Morris]

So good.

[Van Lathan]

That is so funny. And all of a sudden, Tom is. He's. He's grabbing Tom.

[Wesley Morris]

Dude. His. His mouth is wide open. His tongue is sticking out into the camera. Brutal.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a good jump scare. Yeah. So what do we have for most rewatchable?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, come on.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I know Van's answer.

[Van Lathan]

It's the sexy.

[Bill Simmons]

It is.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean it made Vance mixtape for a reason.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I love the VR hotel room. Makes me laugh.

[Van Lathan]

It is very funny as well.

[Bill Simmons]

That was today's most rewatchable scene brought to you by Paramount. Plus this holiday season, make it your mission to watch every mission impossible on Paramount. Plus every dangerous secret, every heart pounding chase, every impossible jaw dropping stunt. Now streaming on Paramount plus we're going to take a break and come back in a second. It next category. What's the most 1994 thing about this movie other than all the sexual harassment and workplace stuff that we talked about. I'll give you some nominees.

[Wesley Morris]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Dad, you got an email. There's one. The Jeep Cherokee.

[Wesley Morris]

Ben doesn't read your email.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he doesn't. The Jeep Cherokee is very 1990s super.

[Van Lathan]

It was the dream car.

[Bill Simmons]

1990 Seattle. They put me in the Shawn Kemp singles.

[Van Lathan]

They had literally a ghost.

[Bill Simmons]

Early Starbucks. Yeah. Dennis Miller just being cast as an actor working as a computer programmer.

[Van Lathan]

And Michael Douglas.

[Bill Simmons]

We have him coming up later.

[Wesley Morris]

Enjoyed it.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think the casual sex harassment him's hitting the assistant with the files on her butt. That's great job. I think that's the single most 1994 thing about the movie is that and.

[Wesley Morris]

It'S just the way that they're talking about sex is just a way that we just don't do that in public ever these days.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Van thinks it's coming back.

[Van Lathan]

I think it is too. As long as we get the Craig Horbecks out of the way so we can have fun again.

[Bill Simmons]

I know. The fun police. What stage the best. Speaking of Dennis Moer, I like when movies bring in comedians and this was a great Dennis Mower. This is my favorite stretch of Dennis Mower. I loved his HBO show. I liked when he's in this. I liked when he's in the net.

[Van Lathan]

He was in the net too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but I like when they bring the people in and just let them kind of cook as themselves.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, the thing was, hey, this movie's not very funny.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Just come in for four scenes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Give us a little funny. Get your check, go home.

[Bill Simmons]

She doesn't give you a boner because she's definitely giving me liftoff. Just like all these like cliche Dennis Moe has ripped them off. They were really smart. When Meredith shows up for this. Another what stage the best of making Tom Kind of undercutting him. Like dad, that one part when he sits at the table and he's in the smallest chair. She makes fun of his tie. And he kind of looks down, like he's just off balance for the first five minutes.

[Van Lathan]

It's in the small chair. That's another funny scene in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And he's just below everyone.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

He was starting the day because this takes place over like a week, right? So he's starting the day on a high.

[Wesley Morris]

And we know this because they start each day with Monday.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Bong.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like the Shining.

[Van Lathan]

He starts the day on such a high, and he just gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller throughout the day.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a couple more. Do you have any. What stage? The best.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, for me, it's definitely like the corporate culture portrayal. The Dylan Baker character, Philip Blackburn. Yeah, like that typical corporate blunt instrument machine where, like, he's just not a human being. He's just a freaking automaton, basically. Like, for instance, like, Van comes into our office whenever he's here. He's, like, humanizing the situation. Let's talk, let's engage. Let's have some human connection, bro.

[Bill Simmons]

This is nice. This is a nice moment for you guys.

[Wesley Morris]

It's what happens. This movie shows you what the typical corporate culture is, which is like, leave your humanity at the freaking door. And I thought that that's. For me, that's what aged the best about the movie.

[Van Lathan]

The conversation about consent, when they had it was like verbatim, the conversations that we ended up. They literally have a conversation in the movie about living consent. That the idea that consent is born at any time and it dies at any time. And when we started having that conversation again, when I say we, I mean us as society. During the Me Too movement, it was sometimes positions as if it was the first time, like I said before that that conversation had ever been had, and it wasn't. And so when I saw that, I was like, you know, it might be good for us to remind ourselves that we've been talking about this stuff for a long time. And maybe you don't put it on any specific generation or any specific group of people. And you remember that these things are things that we're socially legislating and we should continue to socially legislate them until we get.

[Bill Simmons]

But this was. This was a 90s movie thing, though. And we did, like Wesley and I did Philadelphia for rewatchable. Same thing. It was like Hollywood knowing there are these big important topics that they needed to hit being super clumsy about it, but hitting a bunch of it anyway. And then other parts where you're like, ugh, why'd they do that?

[Wesley Morris]

So that's that. That's another thing. To Van's point that I think the movie does a good job of predicting this sort of white male angst where, like the identitarian way that we do everything now, like that guy in the.

[Bill Simmons]

Train in the beginning, 100% and talking.

[Wesley Morris]

About, oh, they got like, women in the workplace or all of that. All of these anxieties to the point where, you know, when Tom is yelling at his wife in the kitchen and he literally says, I'm that evil white straight male, like, this is. They're predicting the freaking discourse that's happening over and over and over again in our Kurds society about like, you know, the white straight male being basically like the devil's avatar, right? This movie's doing that. Predicting that you looking at me for.

[Bill Simmons]

More would say the best. The elevator opening and Demi Moore and she just goes, going down, bro. And he doesn't know whether he should get in or not. She's at just a couple great entrances with her, man. I really love the sneaking into somebody's hotel room to get information and then juxtapose with the person on their way up to the room and not knowing if they're going to get out in time. Yeah, that always works for me. I also am always into the guy who comes home after, obviously some sort of adultery moment has happened. It's like, I'm just going to take quick shower, bro. If I came home, barely talked to my wife, I was like, just quick shower, I'll be right back. My wife would be like, what the hell happened? I'm checking you for scratch marks.

[Van Lathan]

This is one of my biggest nitpicks. Deray Davis, Shout out D. Ray Davis. Deray Davis has a ridiculously funny standup bit about this. He goes, if you go, if you're going to be out there, you'll be cheating on your girl, messing around your girl. You just got need to take showers all the time, random times.

[Bill Simmons]

He was like hanging at 10 o'clock every day.

[Van Lathan]

Showers all the time, random times.

[Wesley Morris]

And then when you come establishing alibaba.

[Van Lathan]

And you get in the shower and she asks you about, you could be like, girl, I take showers all the time, right? But he comes home, he goes, he sends her on an errand. Like, go get me a beer. So get away from the stink of Meredith and the smell of wine on my breath and the Wolverine scar. I got. I'm gonna get in the shower.

[Bill Simmons]

Wolverine scar. Well, it also. There's some good filmmaking in this movie because he's in the shower and he's got the scratch marks, and then the wife comes in and he's just like. And then he has to get out. He has the towel, and it's just. He's just trying to hide the scratches for two minutes. It's compelling.

[Van Lathan]

And then you think, why are you.

[Bill Simmons]

Wearing a T shirt?

[Van Lathan]

You know that he's in it up to his ears. And the wife goes like, who's Meredith? And you're like, oh, my God.

[Wesley Morris]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And she goes, meredith just called and you were a dog. Think of something. Like. Think of something to say. That whole scene is really good.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's. Yeah, that's it. That's all I got. Because we talked about the other stuff. The Fortune 3 Clap Award for most gifable moment. Honestly, the Demi Moore Evil 3D avatar. I might have to start working into stuff.

[Wesley Morris]

There was one. There's a moment at the end where at the last board meeting, where he basically lays out the case that she is an idiot and incompetent. She's the one that actually needs to be fired. And he mouths the words, bye, bye.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that would be a good one.

[Wesley Morris]

And that'd be a nice.

[Van Lathan]

I gotta go.

[Bill Simmons]

Should I send that to the Lakers fanbox after they give up 40 tonight to Atlanta?

[Van Lathan]

Like, I. Mine is when she is leaning over the balcony when she just comes out of the room and she's going like, get back here. Yeah, that's mine.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Just for your own personal pleasure.

[Van Lathan]

No, I'm just saying. That's a good gift.

[Bill Simmons]

Great shot. Gordo Award, Most cinematic shot. You already did it. I do like the escalator scene when they have the tape and they're going up and Demi Moore kind of knows something's up. And they ride up, they're going up, and then you see them behind, and she's just kind of like, hmm, there's.

[Wesley Morris]

Another shot for me. It's like her first scene in the movie. Like, before we see her, it's just a shot of her shoes and Michael Douglas, like, looking down, and he's like, wait a second. Who the. Who is this?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And then she's revealed, and then we're off to the races.

[Bill Simmons]

Den of Thieves. Benihana Awards. Seen stealing location. That office building which they built for the movie.

[Van Lathan]

Oh.

[Wesley Morris]

From scratch.

[Bill Simmons]

Built from scratch because Levinson wanted a set that had all glass so people could see what each other was doing. And he just felt like. So they built it and they still really good.

[Van Lathan]

It was still on a $50 million budget. They built a whole office set. Did they shoot in Seattle?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Huh.

[Bill Simmons]

We rarely get to give out either of these awards and I'm going to do both of them. The Elizabeth Shoe is an Oxford electrochemist award and the Vincent Chase award for. Are we sure this character was actually good at his job? Both goes to Meredith. She's a former Miss Teen New Mexico now working as a higher up in Malaysian conduit for a computer technology company. I'm gonna say it's a stretch.

[Wesley Morris]

It's tough.

[Van Lathan]

Not into it.

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Van Lathan]

We don't know what happened after. She might have went to like MIT or something.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe, but not.

[Craig Horbick]

And again.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure.

[Wesley Morris]

That's what again, the movie wants you to think is like. It's not that she's some excellent worker. She's an operator and a mover and like, you know the older woman who eventually gets it. Like when her and Tom are sitting there and they're watching this woman's Demi Moore's ascent and basically like, she's like, yeah, I got passed over too. I've been here longer. I'm more tenured. I'm more qualified. But this person came in and stole the show.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, here's the case for her not being good at her job. She completely fucked up the product. Right. She was like, yeah, yeah, let's use the cheaper stuff and we won't tell people. And then the product got delayed. Then she comes up with this crazy scheme to frame her ex lover.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

In a sexual harassment thing. So that she could then blame it on him, I guess for incompetence.

[Van Lathan]

Then she's. She. She's on tape visiting the line.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

She can't. She acts like she's got to act.

[Bill Simmons]

Like she's never seen Terrible bad at her job. The Big Kahuna Burger Award. Best use of food or drink. The 91 bottle. 91 Paul Meyer. Which is huge.

[Wesley Morris]

Perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

She.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh.

[Wesley Morris]

When she hands him the glass and he's like, wow, you got this on deck. And she's like, I like to keep the boys below me happy. This is too good.

[Bill Simmons]

Butch's girlfriend Word weak link of the film for me. We already mentioned it. I don't know why they had to do the like. If you're actually just fundamentally looking this as a movie, you don't need to do the sexual harassment plot. You just blame him for the CD ROM's being fucked up. Blindside him at the end. And he gets.

[Van Lathan]

But the reality is, if you don't do the sexual harassment plot, you.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't have a movie.

[Van Lathan]

You don't have a. You don't have a movie.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't have a poster. You don't have an ad campaign.

[Van Lathan]

I hate to say this, but the weak link of the movie is the wife.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I had her in what stage? The worst.

[Wesley Morris]

Really.

[Bill Simmons]

Why do you say that? I told Carrie when I was about to come to work today, I was like, there's a take that Van's going to have that maybe I've worked with Van too long, but I know exactly what the take's gonna be. So go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

Like, the wife is the weak league of the movie. Right. Cause number one, she can't really feel. She doesn't really know. She's not in Demi Moore's league. Right. And she gets it, and she understands that, but she doesn't really add anything in any way. She wants to be a ride or die, but then at the same time, she's being a nagging gag, which we don't like.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And then, like, she doesn't really. Part of me is like, he should have gone with Demi Moore and formed the power couple.

[Wesley Morris]

I have that coming up.

[Bill Simmons]

Sliding Doors. My issue with her was I didn't feel like she was pissed off enough.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Especially the one opposition where Demi Moore is like. I remember I told him that his wife. He said his wife hadn't lost the baby weight yet.

[Van Lathan]

So if we're comparing her to triple horn or to.

[Bill Simmons]

Triple horn's another one.

[Van Lathan]

Well, but triple horn was different, though. Triple horn in Basic Instinct was a constant reminder of who he really was.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

The wife here doesn't really do that. She kind of vacillates back and forth, and then she's out of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Doesn't seem to know his history either.

[Wesley Morris]

If I have a charitable view of what the movie's trying to do with this sexual harassment thing, it's like, we think dudes are too Neanderthal in nature to understand sexual harassment at a high level. So let's turn the tables and make it a dude who's being sexually harassed and can't do anything about it. Right. And so it's like your job and your higher ups are coming after you, and then there's the people closest to you. Like, well, did you really, like, maybe you made the person think that you kind of did want it. This kind of sounds like, yeah, that's.

[Bill Simmons]

What Dennis Miller did. Why'd you go up there.

[Wesley Morris]

That's what it felt like the wife was doing. Which, like, at first she believed it, but then when she sat in the deposition, it's like, maybe you did want it. Maybe that's what I felt like her role was. It's like even the people closest to you start questioning your integrity and whether you deserve the dent.

[Van Lathan]

The Dennis Miller thought was something. I just be honest with you. The Dennis Miller thought was something that people had been talking about. Cause I remember in an actual real case, which was Mike Tyson's case with Desiree Washington, there was he, like, he had invited her up there. It was like 2:00, and they were going to play board games or something like that. And none of this excuses anything, you know, that. That. But I remember people having the argument about exactly why would you go to somebody's room at that time? It's a poor argument to have. But that was Dennis Miller's.

[Bill Simmons]

It was a. It was a 90s argument.

[Van Lathan]

It was a 90s argument. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She was a little too dutiful, the wife, and a little too forgiving, especially near the end. I just feel like there would have been a scene where. Yeah. Where. I don't know, she's. She asked him for some coffee or he asked her for some coffee and she's just managed to. Why don't you ask your. To get the coffee? And just like, she just starts screaming at him for no reason.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Which definitely, probably happens.

[Wesley Morris]

As somebody who's been chewed out a time or two by a significant other, I tend to agree with you. Maybe a little bit too lenient.

[Bill Simmons]

What's age the worst? Just CD Roms being a crucial plot point.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I had the Donald Sutherland trying to kiss me nightmare. The full circle movement moment where at the end the assistant slaps Michael Douglas on the ass. He's like, oh, we've come full circle. Terrible moment.

[Wesley Morris]

We all do it.

[Bill Simmons]

The endings, the ending. Email. Daddy, we miss you. A family. So corny. I would have told Levinson, like, dude, dude, let's just. Just end it when she.

[Van Lathan]

The movie's that way. It starts like a Disney movie and ends like 1.

[Bill Simmons]

A friend being Arthur friend. Tacky. Any other. What stage? The worst.

[Van Lathan]

The Sonics, man. And when I saw that ghost song.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I was like, that could also been a.

[Bill Simmons]

What stage? The best.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Seattle loves the Sonics.

[Bill Simmons]

They still do the Ruffalo. Hannah Rubeneck Partridge overacting word. Douglas wins it multiple times.

[Wesley Morris]

You think it's Douglas?

[Bill Simmons]

Who do you think it is?

[Wesley Morris]

Donald Sutherland.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting.

[Wesley Morris]

Cartoonishly evil what about him yelling at.

[Bill Simmons]

When he's yelling at his wife and he yells at the maid, come on down here.

[Wesley Morris]

Listen, I'm gonna sexually harass white male rage. I don't think that's. That's.

[Bill Simmons]

So. You go Southerland.

[Wesley Morris]

I go Southerland because in that scene where they're talking about crushing Tom and he's like, we wanna crush him, and then he grabs his subordinate's dick.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That is a moment.

[Van Lathan]

Come on. I'm gonna zag. I think it's Dylan Baker. And because he is so swarmy. He is. From the moment he steps into frame, you're like, that's the guy I'm not supposed to like.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

He is laying it on.

[Bill Simmons]

We're friends.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Was there a better title for this movie? No, no, it's perfect. Can you dig it? A word for most memorable quote. I think we know what it is.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Bill, give it to us.

[Bill Simmons]

The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest take award mine, I already gave. I think Demi Moore's two best roles ever were sitting almost fire in this movie.

[Wesley Morris]

I love that take. Mine is Michael Douglas and not Frank Sinatra is actually the coolest man who's.

[Bill Simmons]

Ever lived just for being able to pull off these roles over and over again.

[Wesley Morris]

I believe that these women want to fuck him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And I believe that this guy has a burning desire to fuck these women. Every single. Like, it's in him. It's pouring out of this guy. Like his. He's just thirsty. And then, of course, you know, he marries Katherine Zeta Jones.

[Van Lathan]

Like, bro.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's probably the number one actor ever where you're watching the sex scene thinking, like, I wonder if they actually, like, fucked her in this.

[Van Lathan]

So this is my. It's almost yours, but it's different. Like, mine is that I think he is a stone cold freak in real life.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Remember when he got mouth cancer from, like. Remember that?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I remember.

[Van Lathan]

Stone cold freak in real life. That's why he is so good as a freak. Like in these roles, there's a version of the American President. I've always said that there's a version of that.

[Bill Simmons]

That's an erotic thriller, cheating American President.

[Van Lathan]

That's even better. An even better version of the type of guy.

[Bill Simmons]

You know why we know he's a freak? Because the Basic Instinct scene, when he just walks to the bathroom naked and the producer and the director is like, yo, Michael, we can kind of see your ball swaying during this. He's like, let it fly, man. Keep it in. Keep it in sounds. Hey, Roxy, let's have a talk, man to man. Casting. What ifs Milos Foreman. Originally attached to direct.

[Van Lathan]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

But left due to creative differences. And then Levinson got hired. So originally set to play Meredith, Annette Bening doesn't work. Got pregnant and dropped out. And then ended up making American President with him a year later.

[Van Lathan]

Beautiful, a fantastic actress. Probably pound for pound, a better actress than Demi Moore. But it doesn't quite work.

[Wesley Morris]

No, she can't. No.

[Bill Simmons]

Demi Moore ended up getting it over Geena Davis and Michelle Pfeiffer.

[Van Lathan]

Pfeiffer would have worked.

[Wesley Morris]

Pfeiffer could have worked.

[Van Lathan]

Pfeiffer would have worked.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if she does it at that point in her career. Yeah, she's in here. I gotta save kids at a high school while Coolio Song plays face.

[Wesley Morris]

But yet a woman from Scarface.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

80S Michelle Pfeiffer.

[Van Lathan]

Well, fabulous Baker Boy is Michelle Pfeiffer.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Michael Crichton wrote the character. Cause he knew they were gonna turn the book into a movie as he was writing it. Cause he's like, I got this. And he wrote the character Mark for Dennis Miller in his head as he was writing.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's always a pleasure to give this a word out. The Van Lathan Award. Did this movie need more black people?

[Van Lathan]

It had one guy that I saw sitting behind somebody, and he literally saw one guy was sitting behind him. And I could tell that he. Whoever this extra was or this day player was trying to let his people back in Cincinnati know that he was in the movie because he's sitting behind her and he's like. He's trying to look. He's trying to get. He's getting it. Like he's trying to look. When they had the thing and the black guy that they had in it was one too many. We need to stay.

[Wesley Morris]

That was my answer to no.

[Van Lathan]

There's just stay out of all.

[Wesley Morris]

We didn't need any black people in any of. Any of. Involved in any of this stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Best that Guy Award. The nerdy guy on Douglas's team who played Angel. Whatever. Oh, yeah, his name's Nicholas Sadler. I know that guy from different movies. I don't even know where else I've seen him. But he's like a great. That guy.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, the son. The Conley Jr. Dude. Basically the son of the CEO comes in and he's like doing all the talking.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's one of those guys.

[Wesley Morris]

He's a. That guy. Joe Erla is.

[Van Lathan]

His name is Dylan Baker. That guy or is Dylan Baker? Dylan. Dylan Baker.

[Bill Simmons]

Dylan Baker.

[Wesley Morris]

For me, he's that guy because I had to google his name.

[Bill Simmons]

Name Dian. Waiter's a word. I don't know if Tom's lawyer is in it too much, but she's a candidate.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, it's the two lawyers for me.

[Van Lathan]

Me both.

[Bill Simmons]

The other lawyer, angry, semi sexist laid off guy in the ferry in the first scene.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's good.

[Bill Simmons]

My pick would be Dennis Miller, I think he's not in it quite enough. And every time he comes in, he's just throwing sliders and of the.

[Wesley Morris]

Of the awards.

[Bill Simmons]

The movie needs him. Otherwise it's a pretty like stiff movie.

[Van Lathan]

He clinched it during the scene at the dinner where he tries to out Michael Douglas to his wife. That's where he clinched. And then by the way, at the end, all of Michael Douglas people turn on him. Did she get to you? Did she get to you? Did she get to you?

[Bill Simmons]

And then at the end, he's fine with it.

[Van Lathan]

They boys again.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Recasting Couch director of City I think this would have been an amazing David Fincher movie. And he wasn't quite David Fincher yet.

[Van Lathan]

Dark.

[Bill Simmons]

But if it's David Fincher in the late 90s, maybe even the game David Fincher just being given this movie, Michael Douglas, which the game's only three years after this. But I think this would. I think in Fincher's hands, this movie is like one of the great 90s movies.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I think freaky directors like De Palma. I think the.

[Bill Simmons]

Palma would have been good too.

[Wesley Morris]

He might have. He might have took this over the.

[Bill Simmons]

There would have been more sex. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, there would have been a.

[Bill Simmons]

Following scene throughout Seattle where he's just following Demi Moore around the city.

[Wesley Morris]

I think the movie's definitely a lot freakier if De Palma does it. But like.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, because Levinson was not. He was like. Did the natural like diner.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like his Rain Man.

[Van Lathan]

The movie has a brightness to it and a lightness to it like that. It probably shouldn't have.

[Bill Simmons]

Honestly, we probably should have talked about Levinson more because he was one of the big commercial directors of really mid-80s through the 90s, peaking with rain man, which won just about every award. And it was a big deal when he was directed in this movie. But even that movie, I don't know if this was he. I don't feel like Barry Levinson is a horny guy.

[Van Lathan]

No. Even that movie, Rain man is dealing with some like, unbelievably heavy, heavy, heavy subject matter, but there's a lightness to his touch that makes the movie palatable to a much, much larger audience. And this movie kind of. Kind of didn't need that. But if maybe. If. Honestly, if it is Fincher, it maybe doesn't make $250 million, but he basically.

[Bill Simmons]

Makes us with Gone Girl. Right. It's a version of the same kind.

[Van Lathan]

Of version, but we've changed at that point. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And, you know, I'm looking on his IMDb and stuff that he's produced, and it's like, a lot of TV shows that I've personally enjoyed, like Miss yous Spade and Dopesick.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's about the homicide immortal Shades of.

[Wesley Morris]

Blue with Ray Liotta and J. Lo, where Ray Liotta is just, like, an insane, corrupt NYPD cop and J. Lo' like, keep it together as his, like, partner and teacher.

[Bill Simmons]

I just told you what. 1992, Leota's last movie. I watched it on an airplane on the way to Denver. Tyrese, Ray Liotta, Clint Eastwood's son.

[Van Lathan]

Scott Eastwood. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a heist, and it's not very good. And I loved it.

[Van Lathan]

Bill loved it.

[Bill Simmons]

I loved it. For an airplane on a Small square was perfect.

[Van Lathan]

I didn't realize that you were such a Tyrese guy.

[Bill Simmons]

I like Tyrese. I think he's had some. Some good actor moments. Is that, like, controversial opinion?

[Wesley Morris]

No, no. He's just kind of made himself into a caricature.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. But I think there was more talent there than definitely maybe Cat.

[Van Lathan]

He's like. I mean, he's having a great career. He's just. He's as a public figure, funny guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Every time we talk about any black actor, Van always gets a look on his face like, I'm going to be hearing from him later when we.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, yes, Van knows these people personally.

[Van Lathan]

But, I mean, Tyrese has had a. He's one of those guys that's had a sneaky, underrated movie career. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't even know if it's sneaky.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I think that's true.

[Bill Simmons]

He's in the fast franchise.

[Van Lathan]

Fast franchise.

[Bill Simmons]

But I thought Baby Boy, he's really good in that movie.

[Van Lathan]

Bill, you've never seen Baby Boy.

[Bill Simmons]

What the. Of course I've seen Baby Boy.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a crossover movie. Come on.

[Wesley Morris]

It's a crossover.

[Van Lathan]

I think pay.

[Wesley Morris]

You think it's a crossover?

[Van Lathan]

So how about this? Can you commit to the Baby Boy rewatchables? Let's lock that.

[Bill Simmons]

I haven't seen it in A long time.

[Wesley Morris]

Let's lock that.

[Van Lathan]

See what I'm saying?

[Bill Simmons]

I saw in that theater, though.

[Van Lathan]

You saw Baby Boy in the theater?

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't have a lot going on in the 90s.

[Van Lathan]

I fuck with Baby Boy. I love Baby Boy. That's just not. When you think of the Singleton movies that you would have saw in the theaters. I wouldn't have thought.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Poetic justice was First Day because of Tupac.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah. First. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And also, it was so close to Boys in the Hood. Like, that was like an event.

[Van Lathan]

But John Singleton, because we did higher learning. John Singleton saw that in the theater, too. Yeah. Appointment viewing in the 90s with the movies that he made, you know, Half ass.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I skipped one. Romo Collinsworth or someone else for the director's commentary.

[Wesley Morris]

This is easy for me. It's Quentin. It's always Quentin for me. Quentin narrating some of these scenes. Dude.

[Van Lathan]

Don Tarantino.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

He a real life freak.

[Wesley Morris]

It's always Quinn. So somebody on the Internet, like, spliced up his commentary on King of New York that he did with you guys on the Rewatchables. And I just watched that, like, two days ago.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And when this guy gets going on a movie on an actor, on a director, it's. It's riveting.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I mean, to me, it's. It's Collinsworth for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Because I need to play by play of the actual scene.

[Bill Simmons]

I was thinking Romo.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

He's rubbing her shoulders, Jim. The wide's open, Jim. Oh, she touched his leg, Jim. Stuff's going down.

[Wesley Morris]

His stick still hard, Jim. Yeah. Let's go.

[Bill Simmons]

Half ass. Earned research. The 1991 Palmeyer these days. A 600 bottle.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, wow. Industrial light and magic made all the VR stuff. I don't think they brag about that in the offices.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That's filmed in and around Seattle Films. Marketing touted it as the first Hollywood movie with major stars to address the topic of sexual harassment. I'm telling you, this was a crazy time for movies where it's like, this is the first age movie. This is the first sexual harassment movie.

[Van Lathan]

Sliver, the movie where we talk about video voyeurism.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

Like, there was.

[Bill Simmons]

We didn't have the Internet, so anytime Hollywood tackled a topic, it was like a big deal. It's like, oh, we're doing this.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Third most rented movie of 1995 and the number one rented movie in Baton.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, I was about to say I was. Showgirls was one of my top rated ones as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Third. Third of 1995. A decade later, Demi Moore was sued for sexual harassment by the caretaker of our Idaho ranch. The case was dismissed.

[Van Lathan]

Wait, what?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, just passing that long. And then Demi Moore gave birth to her third child a month before she was cast and biked 28 miles every morning pre dawn to get back in shape for the film.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

Kudos.

[Wesley Morris]

Dedication to her.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll take one more break, then we do Apex Mountain. Apex Mountain. Michael Douglas. No, to me more. It's right around here. It's a decent proposal. It's this movie. It's like if she's in a movie and she's on the poster, it's making $200 million.

[Van Lathan]

I. For some reason, I can't call her Apex Mountain.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Because it's definitely not the movie that she's most associated with.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's probably Indecent Proposal because that. That's barely a movie. And somehow that movie did really well.

[Van Lathan]

It's not Ghost.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. See, the problem is we've done all these movies and we've probably already litigated this. Yeah, it might be Ghost.

[Van Lathan]

It's not it.

[Bill Simmons]

It might be Ghost.

[Wesley Morris]

When people think of Demi Moore, they don't think of disclosure. So it can't be after this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I was just trying to think of when did she have the most power coming out of this movie where this is when she gets the 12 million for strip tease.

[Van Lathan]

So much money.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what I was thinking.

[Van Lathan]

She gets the 12 million for striptease.

[Bill Simmons]

She sets the record for a salary after this movie. So it might be this one. Sexual harassment movies. Yeah, it's gotta be.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Older Donald Sutherland. He's got this. And he's got Six Degrees of Separation.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

A movie that we're gonna do on the rewatchables at some point. So I think it's right around here. He's got the beard, he's got that smarmy. Like that weird posture. Always in a suit, arms crossed.

[Van Lathan]

When I think Donald Sutherland, because he was. I don't know why. I think Outbreak Man. Oh, be compassionate, but be compassionate. Globally, when he was fine, I was.

[Bill Simmons]

Thinking Vision, Body Snatchers, Virtual reality. No. Actor Dennis Miller, I think. Yes. Because he's got this in the net.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

91 Palmer. Definitely the Miss Teenage New Mexico pageant. I think this was the peak. When was that ever mentioned? Who even knew they had it? Anything else?

[Van Lathan]

Seattle as a city, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

So singles comes out this year too.

[Van Lathan]

Singles, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean Kemp and GP Are in place. Ken Griffey is There.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, no, it's Sleepless in Seattle. What am I talking about?

[Wesley Morris]

Sleepless.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's. This is year before.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's this stre. This is Starbucks is starting. This is Amazon is getting ready. This is it.

[Van Lathan]

This is. Seattle's a cool place.

[Bill Simmons]

You're buying Seattle stock right here, right?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz or Hanks?

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, in this movie, specifically Tom Cruise, like the aggrieved. You know, like I had Cruz as well. Incredulous, just lecturing people. Like it. That's Cruz.

[Van Lathan]

I get it.

[Wesley Morris]

It's just the sex part.

[Van Lathan]

It probably works. But sometimes the thing that puts me off, Cruz. It's probably Cruz right over Hanks. But sometimes the thing that puts me off about Cruz and Hanks is that Cruz is so handsome that the guy who plays the lead here has to have some sort of everyman type of situation. But Tom Hanks just doesn't work in the role. And Tom Cruise does. That's the thing. But Cruz, you need a guy that's like. What does she say about him at the beginning of the movie? She says, you're handsome, but you're not irresistible. And that's like the perfect guy to like to put to play the role.

[Wesley Morris]

It's just for me, I could just see Tom Cruise yelling at his wife, yelling at his bosses, yelling at his subordinates.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he gets overact.

[Wesley Morris]

That's what he does so well.

[Van Lathan]

What were Cruises? Did he ever.

[Bill Simmons]

He never had a movie like this.

[Van Lathan]

Never did he. He never did.

[Bill Simmons]

I watched. Was the closest.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he did Rock through. That's his rock three Thriller. As well I should.

[Bill Simmons]

Racehorse rock band, wrestler fantasy team name. Alchemx is pretty strong for a horse.

[Van Lathan]

Alex is strong for a rock band, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Alex sounds good.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Going to see Alemx tonight. Picking nits. Meredith would not have made sure that the phone was hung up. Phones just dangling.

[Wesley Morris]

It's early cell phones. People don't really know how to work them like that, Bill. That's the whole.

[Van Lathan]

One of my nitpicks is the whole part with the we got it all on tape type of situation. I've been trying to get in touch with you. I can't get in touch with you. I got the whole thing on tape.

[Bill Simmons]

I had that as well.

[Van Lathan]

Your whole career is in the balance. I have a tape that I brought.

[Bill Simmons]

The tape home from work so I could listen to it a couple times. Here it is.

[Wesley Morris]

Or Demi Moore on the. Like some kind of bicycle.

[Bill Simmons]

The Stairmaster just laying out her whole plan.

[Wesley Morris]

And yeah, they just.

[Van Lathan]

Literally just.

[Wesley Morris]

Just saying all the evil things they.

[Bill Simmons]

So tomorrow we're gonna set up Tom and blame the product launch on him.

[Van Lathan]

By the way, just so we don't gloss over it, the dude who had the tape is a freak, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He definitely masturbated. He masturbated the tape.

[Van Lathan]

No, he said it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

In the movie. He goes, I have the tape and I was listening to it with my girlfriend a couple of times.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, the freak.

[Van Lathan]

Freaky dollar.

[Bill Simmons]

The legal proceedings just started in 24 hours. We had a lawyer and a judge, and we're just ready to roll. The merger's coming. Let's get illegal.

[Van Lathan]

The movie takes place over the course of one week.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Case is up and completely adjudicated.

[Bill Simmons]

Lawyers, depositions, lawyers, depots.

[Van Lathan]

And the whole no. Fuck.

[Wesley Morris]

Another thing is, like, as the case is going on, they're all still in the office and they're all acting, like, normal. Like when he gets in the elevator with Demi Moore. Like somebody who just accused you of sexual harassment in the workplace. You're getting in an elevator with her alone, Immediately, Voluntarily.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, immediately.

[Van Lathan]

Somebody's placed on leave.

[Wesley Morris]

It's not even like he's on there first. And she just big boys him and gets on. She's on there. And he just goes, I'm just gonna voluntarily hop in the elevator with somebody who forced me, A kid.

[Bill Simmons]

This will go great.

[Wesley Morris]

That's crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

The settlement offer. Once he has the tape and it's clear that, you know, whatever, he gets his job back at a hundred thousand. He's like, fist pumping. I'm like, I'm going for like 5, 6 million. This dude's give me more stock shares for the merger.

[Wesley Morris]

One million. I mean, 100,000. Like, no.

[Bill Simmons]

Anything else?

[Van Lathan]

No. My. By far, my two biggest nitpicks were the tape and how in the legal.

[Wesley Morris]

Time this was adjudicated.

[Bill Simmons]

Sequel, prequel, Prestige tv. All black cast are untouchable. I gotta say, Presumed Innocent has proven that.

[Todd McShay]

We can bring these back.

[Wesley Morris]

Literally.

[Bill Simmons]

This is a good.

[Wesley Morris]

Prestige says we need the Presumed Innocent treatment.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Tomorrow.

[Bill Simmons]

This should be season two of Presumed Innocent.

[Van Lathan]

I would love it as a prestige show. You could cast Too Hot. You could go a lot deeper with things. You could play a lot. I would love.

[Wesley Morris]

My man Fassbender's doing TV shows now. I would love to see him in the lead role of this.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Treo, Sid Goldberg, same Jackson, J.T. welsh, Nell Byron May or Harley May's evil laughter. And Ramon Raymond Long Legs or Philip Baker Hall. I guess we could have put Dylan Baker in there, too. Can I give you long legs?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah, go for it.

[Bill Simmons]

Somebody's got the T. You're having make sex in it. I done long legs for Van.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my goodness.

[Bill Simmons]

Just want to ask her who gets it.

[Van Lathan]

Demi Moore, man.

[Bill Simmons]

I have Demi Moore as well.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I had Douglas.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, I had Michael.

[Bill Simmons]

You love every man, Mike.

[Van Lathan]

You love him.

[Wesley Morris]

I. I do, I do. I. I just appreciate. I appreciate the. The guy that literally gets caught with his pants down but is still fighting tooth and nail as if, like, he. Because if he's to be believed, he did absolutely nothing wrong. He was the model worker. He's always been that. And these people are out to get him. I just love the steadfastness he does.

[Bill Simmons]

Reconsider maybe some of his interactions with his assistant.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he.

[Bill Simmons]

Apologize to him.

[Van Lathan]

There is an enlightenment.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, sorry I slapped you on the ass with the files there. My bad.

[Van Lathan]

And the moment that he sees his assistant in there, that's a great.

[Wesley Morris]

His face.

[Van Lathan]

His face. Like, oh, my God, I've slapped her on her ass before.

[Bill Simmons]

I like the assistant. I thought she was good actress. I don't know what happened to her.

[Van Lathan]

I really liked.

[Wesley Morris]

Her name's Jacqueline Kim.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I really liked her.

[Van Lathan]

I don't think that we can pass it up.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably unanswerable questions. Did we ever figure out a really good way to do Malaysian CD ROMs? Or we just. It was just a mess for the whole 90s?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I think so.

[Bill Simmons]

Elizabeth's son, did he become Jeff Bezos or some other 2000s billionaire there?

[Van Lathan]

It seems like he was right there.

[Bill Simmons]

Around the boom, you know, might have started something. Made like 200 million bucks.

[Wesley Morris]

Definitely living off his Apple stock after the iPhone and the ipod go crazy. For sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Did Meredith become our vice president nominee in 2008 on either side?

[Van Lathan]

Wow. Could have been. Did she come back and buy the company like she said she would?

[Bill Simmons]

Did she become a billionaire?

[Van Lathan]

Did she become a billionaire?

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like she bounces back pretty strong.

[Wesley Morris]

I think she does, too.

[Bill Simmons]

She took two days to figure out what did I do wrong here? And then solved it and then was doing great.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. There's actually a version of this, like a sequel just around her, but it's like a Sex in the City type situation on hbo. Suddenly, I see. Comes on at the beginning. She's taking on the city.

[Bill Simmons]

Any other announcements?

[Wesley Morris]

No, not for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Best double feature choice. I'm going with the Net. Let's just go with, like, here's what we thought the Internet was going to be like in 1994.

[Wesley Morris]

Internet movie.

[Bill Simmons]

You could also do any of the Everyman trilogy with Mike.

[Wesley Morris]

I like. I picked Enemy of the State because I like it.

[Bill Simmons]

That's another good technology movie.

[Wesley Morris]

It's paranoia technology. Like, you know, these. These systems of power that's just going to crush this regular guy just trying to get through the world and through his safe. Yeah, that's what this movie kind of reminded me.

[Bill Simmons]

We did that one on the rewatchables a while ago. And it's so funny how it sees surveillance where it's just like, it's the late 90s, and everywhere you go, we'll be able to see what you're doing with our. These cameras. And it's like you can't even do that now.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, maybe you were getting there.

[Van Lathan]

You know, you are no, like Will.

[Bill Simmons]

Smith's like, in a dressing room, and they're like. They can zoom around the store and.

[Van Lathan]

Get it right now you leave out of this building. You're on camera. You're on camera.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. You're always on camera.

[Van Lathan]

And it's so funny, when I'm watching all these interrogation videos, I'm watching the cops.

[Bill Simmons]

He always drops that. Like, we.

[Van Lathan]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

We have to explain the interrogation video.

[Wesley Morris]

It's like first 48 or something?

[Van Lathan]

No, no. I go on YouTube and I watch interrogation.

[Bill Simmons]

He likes seeing suspects get interrogated on YouTube. This is a YouTube search for ban.

[Wesley Morris]

So is this like. So you could be prepared if the cops ever interrogated?

[Bill Simmons]

No. You like the dynamics of the interrogation.

[Van Lathan]

I just like to watch a cop use the read technique on a suspect to try to get information. And I learned so much. You're always on camera and your phone is telling the police and everybody else where you are at all times during the day. Like, they know exactly where you are. So.

[Bill Simmons]

But.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, but my double feature choice, I ought to change it to the game. Cause I hadn't thought about.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, the game's a good one. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

As a double feature. You know what? I will change it to that. Cause I just had basically Basic Instinct. But that's literally basic.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Dandy and Reds is a whatnot award for what happened the next day. I think eventually Meredith becomes the center of New Mexico. Like 2002 range.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think. I think Tom gets divorced. I don't think the wife lets it go. I think it starts coming up.

[Wesley Morris]

He takes the family to Napa and goes on like, an insane wine bender.

[Bill Simmons]

Like a sideways type bender.

[Van Lathan]

And like, I think Tom leaves the business.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I think Tom. I Think they relocate to Ojai. His wife. I don't think the wife leaves him. But I do think that she sets an ultimatum that at this point, you can't continue to be in the business like that. You gotta get out of it.

[Bill Simmons]

She definitely goes on a girls trip where things happen.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Of course, there's a revenge girls trip that she prey suck locks down.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What piece of memorability would you want from this movie?

[Wesley Morris]

There's like a Sonics thing in his office that I thought was super cool. In Tom. Tom Sanders office. That was cool to me.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I would want the basketball he has that makes no bouncing sound. Yeah, he's just throwing around the office. There's no sound at all. I would go with the Paul Meyer bottle if it was unopened. Just like movie used bottle of wine.

[Van Lathan]

I can't say that.

[Bill Simmons]

Just say you did the bra, man.

[Van Lathan]

It's the ripped panties. All right.

[Bill Simmons]

It's fine.

[Van Lathan]

Is it? That's.

[Wesley Morris]

You want the panties themselves?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you can.

[Wesley Morris]

Lord have mercy. I'm sorry.

[Van Lathan]

I apologize to the audience. Sincerely.

[Bill Simmons]

That was a Larry Sanders joke way. A few years later, they were talking about Planet Hollywood. One of the characters said, so I can have lunch next to Demi Moore's ripped panties. I think it was Artie. Coach Finstock award best life lesson. Don't ever assume what the Internet's gonna be like.

[Wesley Morris]

Could possibly be one life lesson for me. Dennis Miller says, ten years from now, you're gonna need a forklift to get a hard on. And I'm gonna assume Michael Douglas is like 48. He's supposed to be in this movie probably 50. So that means in 20 years, I'm gonna need a forklift to get a hard on. So that's the life lesson for me.

[Van Lathan]

Technology has changed it, brother.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

My life lesson is very simple, man. Don't give your boss a shoulder up. Like, there's nothing that could. Good.

[Bill Simmons]

The 7:00pm Glass of wine.

[Van Lathan]

7:00Pm glass of wine, shoulder.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a life lesson. We knew, but somehow this movie did. Who won the movie?

[Van Lathan]

Demi Moore for me.

[Wesley Morris]

It's Levinson for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Really?

[Wesley Morris]

I just love that this guy. Like, nobody would try to do this nowadays in terms of go out of your way to stake an opinion on all these weighty topics of women in the workplace and sexual harassment and technology and corporate culture and masculine. Like, he has something to say about a bunch of weighty topics. And, like, that's what I like the most about the movie. Now, look, I don't agree with, you know, his conclusions, ultimately, with everything. But I like that he has the balls to do it in a way that I just don't think filmmakers would do. They might stick to one thing. Like, you know, I just watched Sonora, and they're talking about sex work, and it's like, all right, I'm gonna talk about the nature of sex work. And, you know, there's gonna be a little bit class mixed in. But we're sticking to, like, what it's like to be a sex worker, which is, like, you know, a pretty weighty kind of thing. This guy's like five, six different weighty topics that he's just taking his hand in and just being like, here. Here's what I think. Here's my take. Here's my whatever. And I thought it was a pretty entertaining movie in the process.

[Bill Simmons]

I get Demi Moore.

[Van Lathan]

I got Demi Moore, too.

[Wesley Morris]

I respect it.

[Bill Simmons]

Honora was about a sex worker who got mixed up with Russian Borat. That's my blurb. That's my one blurb for Honora.

[Van Lathan]

I love that movie.

[Bill Simmons]

It's great. I like it, too, Craig. Now we're in a different studio. We have to stare at you through a blurry window. But you had never seen this movie. What Was your take?

[Craig Horbick]

10 out of 10.

[Wesley Morris]

Love it.

[Craig Horbick]

But you know how people say 10 out of 10, no notes? 10 out of 10, but a lot of notes. I would say it's a 10 out of 10 on the entertainment scale. You know, this is a pro. This is like a. They don't make them how they used to. Hall of Fame movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horbick]

Really up there. I just think these movies are becoming, like, cultural case studies. Like, kids in school should be required. Like, if you're a sociology major, you should have to watch this movie just to see, like, what people were thinking and stuff in the 90s. Also, you guys didn't bring up. So this movie came out in 94. Sam Levinson, born in 85. Sam Levinson, the creator of Euphoria, the son of Barry.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Come on, Craig.

[Bill Simmons]

Great job, Craig.

[Craig Horbick]

Sam probably saw, like, this movie ten times when he was nine years old.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horbick]

You know, probably was pretty formative. Yeah. Explains a lot for old Sam.

[Bill Simmons]

Great play, Craig.

[Van Lathan]

That's a fantastic point.

[Bill Simmons]

I like your cultural artifact.

[Wesley Morris]

So true.

[Bill Simmons]

This is the thing with these movies that I think we try to make this point over and over again. This is just what people thought and acted and thought was a good idea in 1994. And it's really interesting to watch it in that context. The same Thing for Philadelphia, the way they talk about homosexuality and AIDS in the movie, it's pretty accurate. It seems crazy now, but that was what 1993 was like.

[Van Lathan]

If Philadelphia came out now, I think it would be criticized for not being sensitive enough when the entire point of the movie was to have a conversation about sensitivity and compassion. And you can only do that with the truth of the drama that was in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

And Denzel would make them change the character a little bit.

[Van Lathan]

I don't think he would. I don't think he would. See, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Or the filmmaker would. Somebody would.

[Van Lathan]

Filmmaker would be like, we can't have me this homophobic. A different actor might. Yeah, but the. The conflict that's in Denzel in that movie, especially in that one scene. That's the point of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Anything else, Craig? What did Liz think?

[Craig Horbick]

We had a. It was a blast.

[Van Lathan]

We.

[Craig Horbick]

We, like, stopped at, like, four different times to figure out if the plot.

[Bill Simmons]

Made any sense, the answer's no, and.

[Craig Horbick]

How it would end. It's just. Do you know what the problem? Like, the movie's really fun and everything, but there's a couple plot things that are just so stupid. Like, they build up certain things, and then there's no payoff. Like, the voicemail was, like, this big thing. Like, Liz clocked in the beginning. She's like, he didn't turn the phone off. The voicemail's gonna be a thing. And then it's like, building up and building up. And then Michael Douglas just calls his friend. He's like, oh, yeah, I just typed in the wrong number. Do you have the voicemail? And he's like, yep. And then there was another one where it's like, oh, how are they going to take down Demi Moore? How are they going to take down Meredith? Like, and then he just calls his buddy in some other city, and he's like, hey, you got the files of that shows Meredith doesn't know what she's doing. And he's like, yep.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, yeah, right here. Hold on. It's like, I'll fax them to you.

[Craig Horbick]

Right now with no drop off. Yeah. I also want to say that these are the coolest offices I've ever seen in a movie by far.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, for sure.

[Craig Horbick]

The aesthetic in this movie is especially now, where everyone's in, like, 90s nostalgia mode. Like, the big clunky, cluttered office, like, the big physical computer years. It's like, perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounds like Disclosure was a big hit at the Craig house.

[Wesley Morris]

Love it.

[Van Lathan]

They stopped it four or five times as Craig was.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't want to find out more information on that. All right, that's it for disclosure. I think we made it so much fun. Don't forget, for the people listening, you can go to the Den of Thieves, the Den of the reden of thieves, taping on December 16th. Thanks to Craig Horbeck for producing. Thanks to Jack Sanders as well. And thank you, fellas. Pleasure.

[Wesley Morris]

Excellent.