‘Friday Night Lights’ With Bill Simmons and Mallory Rubin

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: “Friday Night Lights” with Bill Simmons and Mallory Rubin

Introduction

In this episode of The Rewatchables, hosts Bill Simmons and Mallory Rubin delve deep into the iconic sports drama film Friday Night Lights. Released on December 31, 2024, this episode offers an extensive analysis of the movie, exploring its themes, performances, technical aspects, and its enduring legacy alongside the beloved TV series adaptation.

Connecting the Dots: Book, Movie, and TV Series

Bill Simmons opens the discussion by tracing the journey of Friday Night Lights from Buzz Bissinger’s acclaimed 1990 book to the 2004 film adaptation and eventually the highly celebrated television series. He remarks, “[the movie] did the triple crown of the book, the movie, and the TV series” (04:25). Mallory Rubin concurs, highlighting how the TV show’s excellence has somewhat overshadowed the film but still acknowledges the movie’s standalone strengths.

Reboot and Modern Relevance

The conversation shifts to the upcoming reboot of Friday Night Lights. Bill shares excitement about the potential of recording on location in Thailand, joking about adopting the iconic concierge look from the first season (02:57). They discuss how the reboot aims to tell new stories within the same high-stakes high school football setting, maintaining the original’s essence while introducing fresh characters. Mallory emphasizes the importance of keeping the story rooted in Texas, asserting, “the idea of high school football as religion in Texas... is a strand of DNA that is inextricable from the experience” (09:22).

Cast Performances and Character Depth

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the film’s cast. Bill praises Billy Bob Thornton’s performance as Coach Gaines, stating, “the only person who loves Landman more than me is probably you and maybe like two members of Taylor Sheridan's family” (22:16). Mallory admires Garrett Hedlund’s portrayal of Donnie Billingsley and Tim McGraw’s role as his father, Charlie. They lament the absence of Connie Britton’s nuanced portrayal of Coach Taylor’s wife, Tammy, in the film, noting how crucial her character is in the TV series for depicting a strong marital relationship (32:14).

Technical Brilliance: Score and Cinematography

The duo appreciates the film’s technical aspects, particularly the score by Explosions in the Sky and Tangerine Dream. Mallory states, “it pulls you right back into that very specific setting” (29:00), while Bill adds, “It's like, ah. It gives you that goosebumps” (28:57). They commend the film’s gritty cinematography and immersive camera work, which enhance the intensity of the football scenes and the emotional weight of the storyline.

Memorable Scenes and Themes

Several standout scenes are dissected, with particular attention to the first day of practice and the pivotal halftime speech. Mallory highlights the emotional depth of Mike Winchell’s character development, appreciating the subtle moments that reveal his vulnerabilities amidst the overwhelming pressure to win state (37:29). Bill underscores the significance of the coin toss scene, critiquing the lack of safeguards against cheating and its impact on the game's outcome (42:06).

Critical Insights and Nitpicks

While largely praising the film, Bill and Mallory offer constructive criticisms. Mallory questions Coach Gaines’ handling of Booby’s injury, deeming his decisions irrational and detrimental to the team’s dynamics (66:00). Bill echoes these sentiments, pondering why the coach didn’t seek better medical attention or prepare alternative strategies, highlighting gaps in the character’s competency (67:11).

Additionally, they lament the lack of depth in certain characters and the underdevelopment of Coach Gaines’ wife, which contrasts sharply with the TV series’ rich character arcs (32:11). Mallory suggests that essential life aspects, such as the marriage dynamics, were overlooked in favor of maintaining a sports-centric narrative (63:18).

Ranking and Legacy

When ranking Friday Night Lights among football movies, Bill asserts it stands within the top six, contending it rivals classics like The Longest Yard and Any Given Sunday. Mallory agrees, emphasizing its unique blend of sports drama and personal struggle, which sets it apart from more conventional, triumph-focused sports films (101:19).

Unanswerable Questions and Final Thoughts

The hosts delve into unresolved questions about the film’s narrative choices, such as Coach Gaines’ questionable decisions and plot inconsistencies like score miscalculations during the championship game (94:36). They also discuss the film’s adherence to the true story versus creative liberties, providing a nuanced perspective on its authenticity and dramatic elements.

Producer's Perspective

Special guest Craig Horlbeck, a producer who hadn’t previously watched the movie or TV series, joins the conversation. He praises the film’s realistic portrayal of high school football and its emotional gravity, noting, “this is about peaking in high school legacy, disappointing your parents” (108:00). Craig appreciates the movie’s serious thematic undertones and its departure from typical Hollywood sports narratives, aligning it more closely with critically acclaimed dramas like Moneyball (107:49).

Conclusion and Future Episodes

Wrapping up, Bill and Mallory express their appreciation for the insightful discussion and hint at future topics, including celebrating anniversaries and exploring more classics from the Rewatchables archives. They encourage listeners to engage with their content on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel and upcoming podcasts, promising more in-depth analyses and nostalgic rewatch experiences.

Notable Quotes

• Bill Simmons: “We'll make hope come alive on Friday night. This is our team.” (03:30)
• Mallory Rubin: “Being perfect is about being able to look your friends in the eye and know that you didn't let them down because you told the truth.” (46:04)
• Craig Horlbeck: “This movie was way, way better than I thought it was going to be.” (107:49)

Timestamp Highlights

• 04:25 – Introduction to the connection between the book, movie, and TV series.
• 09:22 – Discussion on maintaining the Texas essence in the reboot.
• 22:16 – Praise for Billy Bob Thornton’s performance.
• 29:00 – Appreciation of the film’s score.
• 37:29 – Analysis of Mike Winchell’s character development.
• 66:00 – Critique of Coach Gaines’ handling of Booby’s injury.
• 101:19 – Ranking Friday Night Lights among football movies.
• 107:49 – Producer Craig Horlbeck’s praise for the film’s thematic depth.

Final Thoughts

Friday Night Lights remains a poignant exploration of high school football’s impact on individual lives and community identity. Bill Simmons and Mallory Rubin’s comprehensive discussion not only revisits beloved aspects of the film but also critically examines its shortcomings, offering listeners a balanced and thorough rewatch analysis. Whether you’re a longtime fan or new to the story, this episode provides valuable insights into why Friday Night Lights continues to resonate with audiences.

Transcript

[Todd McShay]

What's happening? It's Todd McSha and I'm back with a new home and a new show at the Ringer and Spotify. The McShay Show. It's a video and audio podcast coming to you year round with all my NFL draft information, big boards, mock drafts and player movement. Plus, I'll be chatting with some of my best friends in football, including some of your favorite football analysts during the week. We'll have episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays that'll include discussions about my player rankings, who's rising, who's falling, and who your NFL team should be keeping an eye on. Plus, we'll be reacting each week to the College Football Playoff polls and giving you previews and picks for each Saturday slate. In addition, I'll have episodes on Saturday nights with my immediate reaction to the full day in college football every week. So if you love the college game, the NFL, the draft or all of it like me, make sure to like, follow, subscribe and get ready for the McShay show, the Ringer, Spotify and wherever you watch or listen to podcasts, this.

[Bill Simmons]

Episode of the Rewatchables is presented by State Farm. There's a lot to say when buying a new home or car, but only one thing to say when you need help to protect them. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Conclave, one of AFI and NBR's best pictures of the year. You know those movies that stick with you? Well, the brand new film Conclave feels like one of those. It's directed by Edward Berger, the mind behind All Quiet on the Western Front. It's a thriller that takes you behind the Vatican walls during the high stakes election of a new Pope, Ralph Fiennes. Unbelievable as Cardinal Lawrence, leading a powerhouse cast including Isabella Rossellini, Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow. Critics are calling it hands down the best picture of the year. Bill Simmons is calling it really, really, really good. Learn more at Focus Features Guilds2024.com Conclave the Rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where Mallory Rubin hosts House of R with Joanna Robinson, who we team up the Three of Us Prestige TV Podcast Season three of White Lotus in February. We did the recaps for season two. We're doing them again for season three. We're not splitting up Joanna and Rob Mahoney. They're going to do the pre caps on Friday Yes. And then the three of us, because we had a great time the last time.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't even remember. It felt like. Was that 10 years ago? Was it two? Was it one? How long ago was it?

[Mallory Rubin]

It was a long time ago. It's been a couple of years. Will we be. Is this where you're ready to officially confirm that we'll be recording on location in Thailand?

[Bill Simmons]

You want. We have to film all of them at once after the football season. Yeah. We could do it with the fly there, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Why not?

[Bill Simmons]

I am going to dress. I'm going to have the facial hair. Hair and shirts of the concierge. In season one. That's going to be my look. That's going to be. How was that guy's name in season one? The guy who ends up.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're talking about the Murray Bartlett character? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You think you can match that mustache?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'm going to try to get. Get it going. Anyway, I brought you on for the last rewatchables of the year. I'm honored to discuss a movie that we love very much. Friday Night Lights is next. In a town where winning is everything.

[Todd McShay]

Here's the state.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's bring them.

[Bill Simmons]

Hell, a team with no chance. Where you going?

[Mallory Rubin]

You want me to go in, coach?

[Todd McShay]

You don't want a helmet? My goodness gracious.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll make hope come alive on Friday night. This is our team.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is us. Let's go right now.

[Bill Simmons]

From the producer of 8 Mile comes one of the greatest sports stories of all time, Friday Night Lights. I don't want this to never end, Mike.

[Mallory Rubin]

Never. Never.

[Bill Simmons]

This film is not yet. Radio starts October 8th. All right, Mallory. I don't think anybody loves the Friday Night Lights franchise more than you, with the possible exception of me and a couple others. I go way back to the book coming out when I was in college, Buzz Bissinger's book. And it was one of the best sports books, not only the 80s, but probably ever. It was two years after season of the Brink with the John Feinstein book about John Feinstein, about Bobby Knight. And it was just this glory stretch of it. Started with breaks of the game, the beginning of that decade, and Friday Night Lights came out. It was awesome. I was immediately attached to everybody. And then the question became, when is this gonna be a movie?

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

It took 16 years for this to be a movie. So when did you read the book?

[Mallory Rubin]

God, college. Yeah, college. It's been a long time since I've read the book. I have it behind me over there. But yeah, I read it. Cause this came. The movie came out in 2004, which was when I graduated high school and then started college. So I read the book because it was like out in the, in the, in the ether. Because of the film. Yeah. And so it's been, it's been a while since I've returned to the text, but obviously it's, it's a more frequent rewatch for me. Literally yesterday. What a joy.

[Bill Simmons]

This did the triple crown of the book, the movie and the TV series.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which, you know, there's, there's been really good movies that led to better TV shows. We. Bash is probably the most famous example. This one, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I think Parenthood. There's a really good argument what's better, the movie or the TV series? It kind of depends what you like. But both of them ended up being pretty high end. And then this one, which I think the TV show kind of overwhelmed the movie and now the movie has become weirdly underrated.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's any doubt that the excellence of the television show, which is, you know, unmatched, like this is one of the best television shows ever made, has diminished the film subsequently. And so like to revisit this movie a couple times in the last week. Prepping for the pod was a real joy because honestly, like, even though I love the movie and I love a football film, I love a high school film, I love a high school football film. I love a story set in a small town in Texas. I love Billy Bob. It has so much.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I had really found myself like not thinking about the movie a ton because the show just takes up so much real estate in my mind and in my heart. So it was really fun to revisit it. I, I do think that it, it, it's just kind of undeniable that it can't hold a candle to the show. But I also think it's okay to say that and acknowledge that without it really being a slight on the film because it's more about the show's excellence than it is about anything the movie is lacking.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's almost not fair. They had so much time and yeah. Real estate and space to explore with the TV show. And that was the great thing about this movie is it's a TV show wrapped in a two hour movie. There's so many plots, characters, so many interesting things going on. It's all concentrated in this one season. But for my kids, neither of my kids have watched Friday Night Lights and I Kind of can't believe my daughter hasn't watched it yet because it checks a lot of boxes of things she likes on the show. But I have watched a movie with my son who really likes it and would never watch the TV show. And I wonder, as the years pass, is the movie actually going to take on greater significance than the show for people who don't feel like diving into a five season show? The other thing we have is there's going to be a reboot coming.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

So I saw Peter Berg, who I've known forever, I saw him a couple weeks ago at a Christmas party and this is like happening. It's in. I don't know what took so long. And it frankly should have come out like six, seven years ago. Right. I was ready for the TV show to come back 10 years ago.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that if the continuation of the television series had happened too close to the end of the original series, everybody would have wanted it to follow those characters. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Kyle Chandler, kind of you would want.

[Mallory Rubin]

To be in Pennsylvania with the Chandlers, with the Taylors. You would want to know what Riggins was up to. So the extra time allows them to do what it sounds like they are going to do, which is you use the title as a bucket to tell different stories about high school football in Texas. So this is gonna be a completely different cast, different characters. I'm sure at some point some of our favorites will make their way into a given scene. How could they not? But this isn't gonna be about Tammy and Eric Taylor. Like this isn't gonna be about the characters in the original Friday Night Lights, which is, I think, essential. If you tried to redo the show, that was perfect. That's a disaster waiting to happen. You can't do it. So new characters, new story, same set of core ingredients with like this perfect alchemy that leads to this incredible brew.

[Bill Simmons]

As long as they have explosions in the sky, we're probably good. The thing is though, great score. I do feel like we've missed a lot of opportunities, TV wise, to just like run back a concept with different characters. Even Entourage, I think could have easily done this and just had a different actor or a musician or somebody in their entourage moving in and going through some of the same things. Maybe it's a black, black hip hop star. Whoever it is, I think Cheers could have easily. I've talked about this in the past. Just take Cheers, move it into a different city and go. I think er, which I guess they're kind of doing now with the Pit Pit. Yeah, A max. But there's certain things that just feel like they would make sense. And to me, high school football in Texas, they could have moved Friday Night Lights, put it in Pennsylvania. Right. They could have put it in, like, Minnesota. I think there's places it could have kept going, but I guess they're just saying, we're running back Texas. I don't. Would you put it in a different city or.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, No. I think this has to. Because the idea of, like, high school football as religion in Texas, the idea of Ratliff Stadium as the cathedral, as the church where the community gathers, that feels to me like a strand of DNA that is inextricable from the experience. Now, obviously, there are plenty of other high school football hotbeds across the country. You could set it in Florida, you could set it somewhere in California, you could set it in Ohio. I think that's not an impossibility. But when you hear those three words, Friday Night Lights, you think of the oil, Derek. You think of that particular hue of sunrise or sunset over the open plain. Like, it's just. It is Texas. I mean, Texas forever, Right? You can't have Riggins in Texas forever for five seasons and then set the next burst of the show somewhere else. It would just, like, feel impossible, feel wrong.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, think the movies. 04. The TV series is 06.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We don't have any of the stuff we have now. The. From a storytelling standpoint, documentaries. Follow the team around for a season. QB1.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Social media, we didn't really know anything about these worlds other than what was on, like, SportsCenter, what was written about in, like, a Sports Illustrated feature, kind of going in blank. So when they brought us into this first with Varsity Blues, which there was a couple of. I don't want to call ripoff things because we love Varsity Blues. But there was against the Grain, an NBC show with Ben Affleck as the quarterback that failed. There was Varsity Blues, same thing. Like, let's go into this Texas world. What is this? Why do they care about high school football so much? Then this movie nailed it, and then the TV series took it to nine other levels. But I do feel like in 2024, we do have more info on this stuff now, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I think it's a combination of. Of that. Of, like, just the access that you have to the players, to the culture, to the team, but also the landscape of the sport has fundamentally shifted in the last couple of years. Like, we're in the nil era. You can't do Friday night lights in 2025, 2026, whenever. Who knows exactly when the first season is going to hit Peacock and not have Nil be a part of the fabric of the story. So, like, the things, you know, obviously, booster culture, I mean, Buddy Garrity, icon, right. Pantheon TV character. Like, it's great to see Brad Leland in the movie. It's so fun to go back and be like Connie Britton. There she is. I have some thoughts on that coming up. Brad Leland, there he is. John Buddy, same character. Booster culture is a huge part of the story, but the role of acknowledged money in the sport is just going to be such a central ingredient in the new series. So that's kind of interesting. And I think also that helps me wrap my mind around the idea of how Friday Night Lights is a recurring resource. Right. Because the sport is always changing. And so you have that, like, that harmony between the things that are eternal. The role that high school football, that football plays in Texas as the element that is like fixed and unchanging. And then you have the nature of high school football, college football, what changes about the landscape, what changes about player empowerment. But also just like, what changes about football? Where are we schematically in 2025, 2026 comes out. And also like so much innovation is always happening at the high school level. So you have a real, I think, fun opportunity to play there with just like what is happening in the game itself self. So when I first heard the news, I recoiled because I'm like, it just makes me nervous to go back to this beautiful. Well, but the more I started thinking about it and reading a little bit about what they. They were saying about like the. The concept for the. The impetus for the initial story. I got really excited and I can't wait.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you hit the two big things, Nil and social media.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which in the movie don't exist. In the TV series there's a little social media stuff. Like there was the. What was Mika Kelly's character name?

[Mallory Rubin]

Lila.

[Bill Simmons]

Lila. The Slam Page episode, which was like one of the. One of the first great social media episodes, even though we didn't really have social media.

[Mallory Rubin]

But imagine. Imagine Tyra on TikTok.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh my Lord.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, it's just a different thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Imagine Booby miles with nil TikTok, the whole thing. So I mentioned how it had been 16 years. 16 years from book to movie. There were seven different rejected scripts. Brian Grazer owned the rights for a while. Different people will go into some of the casting what if stuff with it. And at Some point, there were seven rejected scripts that kind of got pushed aside. And according to research, Peter Berg read all of them and reread the book. And he was like, what did they get wrong? And he realized that all these things were about, like, trying to get race and oil and all these different, like, big picture Texas themes. And he was like that. The book's about what football means to this community, what football means to Texas, that you basically peak when you're in high school, if you're on one of these teams. Those are the themes I need to put in the movie. And I. I gotta say, I like the movie even more than I did when it came out because. And I think part of it is because I was gonna do this in what stage the best.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The way they film it was so dramatic. In 2004, the quick cuts, I saw this. I actually saw a screening for it because we. I had known Peter forever, and he had a screening for a bunch of family friends. And I remember my one takeaway was like, I'm a little dizzy. That was. That was hard. But now I watch it. I feel like every movie is like this. I'm totally used to watching it. Did you notice that this time around that it seemed way more. Not busy?

[Mallory Rubin]

So it's funny. I also had that in what's age the best. Just the editing and cutting. And honestly, the. Just like the movie is in some ways a series of montages nature of the film. But then inside of each of the montage, the number of moments where you are not just in a huddle, but inside of great moment in the history of film. When Carter player kicked, not only pulls Winchell's helmet off, but then kicks it directly into his face. You feel the thrust of the helmet moving through the air. There's a lot of close framing. And you were mentioning documentaries and how has. Just like a. That's. That's an element of access that we have now to so many teams. But it does have. Even though it's obviously a dramatic film, it has that kind of like documentary footage quality to it where the camera is right there inside of the play on the bench. But you can feel the kind of spit flying between the coach and the player or the father and the players. People are yelling at each other. And so there is a proximity. There's a proximity that pulls you into the action. And it can be a little bit like whiplash inducing. But I also found it riveting on a rewatch. And I think some of that honestly, is like technology. We're just so used to watching everything in high def and with like surround sound. And you are now like accustomed. I mean, I guess in some ways you're accustomed to watching on the smallest stream possible because everybody watches things on their phone now. But on the flip side, you're used to just the most like immersive viewing and audio experience possible. And so like, being in the middle of the field feels appropriate now in a way that it felt like more revelatory back then. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Widescreen. When this movie was on the square TVs in the five, six years after it came out, it was just harder to follow. Super shaky. So a couple themes with this one. You mentioned earlier about sports. Sports movies. The documentary boom hasn't taken off yet. Sports movies still have this outsized impact on how we consume stuff as sports fans. And this is coming off this really kind of cool, fun era of sports movies where it was like this like 3.0 version of for Love of the Game. Any given Sunday, the no tin cup was 96. The Replacements, Mystery, Alaska. It's Summer Catch. There was like a cottage industry. All of them were making money. Remember the Titans? I could name like 20 of them. They're all doing really well. And Friday Night Lights is moving us toward this kind of next iteration of whatever that was. And it's leading to stuff like Moneyball and Win Win and like dramas that also happen to be about sports. And I think by the end of the decade, Friday Night sets the tone for that. So that's one thing. The other thing is it's. It's the rare sports movie where the good guys don't win, which has happened like less than 10 times. And it's always infuriating when it happens the first time. But then from a rewatchable standpoint, it's actually great that they don't win.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is a top tier. What's aged the best? And obviously we'll say this, I think many times throughout the pod. This is based on a book that is about a true story. So you're talking about real history. They didn't win. In fact, in real life, they were eliminated in the semis. Right. Not even the championship game. But still the drama of building toward. You have the opening expectation. It's not really an underdog story. Except for the fact that they're small. We keep hearing that they're small. And so you have that like, seed of doubt about whether they'll be able to do it. But because of Booby, because of Coach Gaines, like, the expectations are so high.

[Bill Simmons]

Preacher. Preacher's like 6, 8, 400.

[Mallory Rubin]

Love Preacher. The way he's filmed the first interview with Preacher where he just respond, does not respond once.

[Bill Simmons]

Basically Miles Garrett as an 18 year old.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff. And then you have the fall of Booby's injury and then the just cratering. This team is completely lost without him. And then they manage to put it together and win and make the playoff. Can't wait to talk about the coin flip. And then they don't do it like to come up just short after all of that. It feels right in a way that like even though when you're watching a sports movie, you want the team to win, you want to see them hoist the trophy, there's something weirdly to me, like more satisfying about watching the team lose. I don't know what that says about me or why I like that more, but the pans of Carter celebrating and the Panthers in a state of abject despondence. But here's the true magic. You get just enough hope sprinkled in. You see Charlie and Donnie Billingsley embrace. Right? Like there's hope mixed in with the pain. And then of course we build toward like those ending updates on where everybody went, including the fact that they won. They won the next season.

[Bill Simmons]

They had this after a Ravens. Do you need this after every Raven season ends badly?

[Mallory Rubin]

This is slow motion. Maybe that's why I respond on a soul deep level to seeing the team lose at the end.

[Bill Simmons]

It's one of the best sports movie endings of a game sequence ever. The. The two guys slumped at the one yard line, Billingsley and Winchell. And they keep cutting back to them and they're just, they look like they've just been in a war and they're so despondent. It's great. So the history of sports movies where the good guys don't win. At least modern version. Last 50 years.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Bad news Bears and Rockies same year.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. That's. That was the first time that flipped. All the right moves is a really good version of this where they, they, they messed around in a couple of ways. They had the big game early on in like the first like 40% of the movie. It seems like they won for some reason. They don't take the safety. Then the guy fumbles coming out of the goal line. Recovered in the end zone in the pouring rain. Touchdown. And it's just devastating. And then poor Steph never plays football again. Tin cup where now we've had a whole generation of hey, it was really cool. When the good Guy didn't win.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And Ron Shelton twisted and ending at Tin Cup. A League of Their Own, which is earlier than Tin Cup. But now you could argue if you're Rudy, if you're a Lori Petty person in that movie, maybe the good guys did win.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're Tom Hanks, Gina Davis, you weren't any given Sunday and Moneyball are the other two. But great list.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, that's a great list.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably the. The other than Rocky, probably the best one.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I would also throw in Friday Night Lights. Like season three. Not winning State in season three is just so perfect, but so devastating and like one of my. When I think back on the series because of course you have State. You have them winning in season one. Despite everything. One of the great memorable images in the history of TV were like, what happened at the end of season five? And then we see the ring on Vince's hand and we realize they won. We get. We're bookended by titles. But that anguish in the middle of knowing a certain era of Coach Taylor Panthers football had ended. Like, that visual of Tim leaving his cleats just like shatters me. It's so good. So good.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, season three, they won because it wasn't season two.

[Mallory Rubin]

Shout out Landry.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a hard thing to pull off though, because you have to have a really good movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Not to win at the end after I've just spent two hours hoping that the good guys are going to win and they don't. So one of the reasons we're doing this pod, other than we've been dying to do this movie forever, is our guy, Billy Bob Thornton, who's having a renaissance. The only person who loves Landman more than me is probably you and maybe like two members of Taylor Sheridan's family. And it's a Billy Bob resurgence. It's so much fun watching him in any given Sunday, basically, as the Landman guy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God, I cannot believe it took 20 minutes to mention Landman. I'm astonished.

[Bill Simmons]

Should we. Should we throw it? Actually, let's throw it to a break and when we come back, we'll talk about Billy Bob and Landman. This episode is supported by a State Farm. Think about your first reaction after you have an accident, what do you do? You scream, oh, no. Or man, why did this happen? On the flip side, let's say you buy a new car or you lease a new car, get in there and it smells great. And you're like, man, this is awesome. But just remember, really, the only words you need to Remember, are like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need. Have coverage options to protect the things you value most. File claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to somebody. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right. We were talking about Billy Bob before the break. First of all, best 21st century Billy Bob movie, I think. I think hands down. I'll give you some other candidates if you want.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Monster's Ball is probably the highest end.

[Mallory Rubin]

That. That would be my pick. Honestly.

[Bill Simmons]

Not a rewatchable.

[Mallory Rubin]

Downright maybe the answer to revisit.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I would say that that will not be on the rewatchables. Yeah, maybe that's. That's probably the highest end quality movie. And Heath Ledger is amazing in that movie. But this is the most rewatchable. Some people might go with Bad Santa.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not over this. Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

Intolerable cruelty.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Some people go, not me. But this was kind of the peak of that whole run that starts with Sling Blade. He's got this little 10 year run. He was at that guy forever. And then all of a sudden, Sling Blade, he's in Armageddon. He's in Simple Plan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

He's in Pushing Tin, which they tried to do a movie about what you call it the Flight dudes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Mm.

[Bill Simmons]

But most important, starts dating Angelina Jolie and they become a crazy celebrity couple. They give crazy interviews. They're wearing blood around each other's neck, and that's something viable.

[Mallory Rubin]

Blood or necklace. I remember it well. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

They had that interview where they just said they had sex. The limo and the way they worked out. And at some point it was like, this guy might be insane, but he rallies back. And it all culminates in him playing Coach Gaines.

[Mallory Rubin]

He had like, you're Billy Bob nominations, Right. For Sling Blade and like that run of not only getting nominated for, like, adapted screenplay, but getting acting nominations a couple times. Yeah. Establishing himself as a fascinating not only performer, but celebrity. Like you're saying because of the Angelina Jolie relationship. I have a pretty vivid memory of. Of being a young person seeing the blood necklaces and thinking, like, what. What is going on with these people? This is like fascinating and almost magnetic, but also kind of actively alarming. He's just incredibly capable and talented and interesting performer. I was really excited when he was in Fargo. That was like a fun. Just getting into the era of Billy Bob on tv. I didn't watch. I didn't. Were you a Goliath person? I didn't watch Goliath, but I know people really liked his performance in that. And now having him back in our lives, not just occasionally, but weekly on.

[Bill Simmons]

Landman, the best version of Billy Bob.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is the gift of the year. I mean, this show is so entertaining. My favorite weekly tradition is to text you and Chris and Jeff, like, a random time period. I believe this Saturday was 10 and 10 hours and 36 minutes until Landman. And I'm just, like, waiting to boot up the app on a Saturday night because I have a thriving social life and a lot going on. And he's just. It's not only a great performance and him and Ali Larder together, the Tommy and Angela characters is just magic. It's absolute magic. But seeing him back in Texas, it does put you in a Coach Gaines Friday Night Lights headspace. Though I would say, like, the Tommy Norris character is much more overtly Texan to me than his Friday Night Lights Coach Gaines role. I don't know. I don't know if you feel that.

[Bill Simmons]

Way kind of thing where there's chaos going all around him. He's trying to solve problems. Right. He's doing a little more subtly as Coach Gains Lane.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Man.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a little more total.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Little more of a character and probably a little bit of a darker side, but they definitely seem like they're brothers, at least. But he's somebody I've always just really liked. And if you kind of catch him in the right role in the right movie, whatever, you just think he's one of the best actors on the planet. He's really good in this. He pulls it back. There's some fun scenes with him and the boosters with the way he plays it, where there's like, hey, we really need to win this week. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotcha.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love that moment when they charge his office unprompted. They're like, we've just got some thoughts on the defense.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He just. He kind of knows what he has to do, but I think this is his monster ball was really great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's.

[Bill Simmons]

I just never want to. I've only seen it twice. I saw it once in the theater and then once a couple years later. And it's just. It is not a fun movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's upsetting.

[Bill Simmons]

It's upsetting. It's upsetting movie. So Friday Lights is probably last the longest. This movie had breakout moments for a lot of people. Peter Berg.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Who had directed two movies, but this was the one that really catapulted him. Plus, he ended up putting together the TV show, which you can read about on a great old website called Grantland. I think it was month two of Grantland. We did a long oral history. Robert Mays did it. It was his first big assignment. And. And he got everybody.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Was it. The early 2010s were unusual. He could be like, I'm doing an oral history. And you'd literally get everyone in the movie and everybody who is behind it. Now you get like, three people. But so Peter Berg, this launches him. And by the end of the decade, he was a big enough star that he was one of the first two directors we got. For 30. For 30. Right. From a credibility standpoint, it was a huge deal with other filmmakers. It was like we had Barry Levinson, we had Peter Berg. Oh, oh. So you guys are for real. Is one of those. So I always be grateful to him for that. Explosions in the sky.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible. Incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Them and Tangerine Dream in the finals for. For movie scores.

[Mallory Rubin]

You hear those electric chords.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And it just makes you want to charge onto the field.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, ah. It gives you that goosebumps.

[Mallory Rubin]

It does. Yeah. That's. Any great movie score does that. Right. It not only, like, gives you that kind of tingle in your spine and the goosebumps on your skin, but it pulls you right back into that very specific setting. And this score really, really does that. And I love the way that the movie and the television scores are, like, in conversation with each other. They're so similar, but also specific and slightly distinct.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't wait to talk to producer Craig about this movie at the end of the pod. He's never seen the movie of the TV show. I don't know what his history is with explosions in the sky, but I feel like in the social media, it's probably. You're probably aware of it in some way with some of the clips. But so anyway, big win for those guys.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The cast, Derek Luke, Garrett Hedlund, Jay Hernandez, Lucas Black. They're all really good. And they all went on to do stuff. And I think the casting in this movie in general, I had a lot of trouble with. What would I do if I could recast apart? I. I don't know that the. Garrett Headland as. As basically Riggins.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

In the TV show, he becomes Riggins.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Versus the actual Riggins. Who do you have?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, I mean, come on. Is that a joke?

[Bill Simmons]

I just want to make Sure. I just want to make sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love Garrett Headland. I actually think. I think. I think Donnie Billingsley is, like, quietly my favorite character. I really, really like.

[Bill Simmons]

Unquestionably.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I really like that character. And Obviously the Tim McGraw performance as his father is just tremendous. But Taylor Kitsch is. Tim Riggins is like a Mount Rushmore TV character. He's untouchable.

[Bill Simmons]

I just want to make sure. No question. Liz. Kelly, Craig's wife has Garrett Hedlund because we did Country Strong once on the Rewatchables because it's her favorite movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I felt like I owed it to her. She's been an important person for the ringer. But Garrett Hedlund, that was probably his peak. I always liked him as an actor. I always really liked Lucas Black. He ended up in one of the fastest movies, I think. Tokyo Drift. Jay Hernandez has had a long TV career. And then Derek Luke, who is the oldest of all of them. He's been a bunch of stuff, too. Tim McGraw is an actor. Wasn't ready for that.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's, like, unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

He's really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we can just go right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Back to talking about Taylor Sheridan shows now, because his starring role in 1883 is like one of the best Sheridan verse performances to date. It's amazing. Genuinely amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

What was your favorite out of all of them? 1883 or 19?

[Mallory Rubin]

1923. Yeah. I mean, obviously now Landman is. Is just, I think, operating on another plane of existence. But of the Yellowstone shows, 19 is really, really, really great. I'm so excited for season two.

[Bill Simmons]

I like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait. They're all great.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Connie Britton, who's barely in this, and I have a specific, specific spot later in the podcast to discuss this, but playing Coach's wife.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Different actor as her husband. She barely has any lines. Her hairdos different.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And not really a lot of correlation to the TV series where she becomes one of the great mom wife characters in the history of television. You never would have guessed it from this movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

I also have more thoughts. Coming up on another category.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll save thoughts on that. So. Oh, I messed up the Buzz Bissinger. The book came out in 1990. The team you follow was 1988. He was also cousins with Pete Berg, which is part of how this all happened. So $30 million budget made 62 million. Did well. Didn't do amazing, but I think a lot of people saw it. And then it led to the TV series eventually. Our guy Raj. Yeah, three and A half stars. He loves story. He loves characters.

[Mallory Rubin]

Loves story. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The movie demonstrates the power of sports to involve us. We don't live in Odessa and are watching game played 16 years ago and we get all wound up. You're goddamn right, Roger Ebert.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have no notes on that review.

[Bill Simmons]

For exactly what happened. Great job.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dead on.

[Bill Simmons]

Now it's time for the most rewatchable scene brought to you by den of Thieves 2 Pantera. The original had everything you could want from an action heist movie. And now Gerard Butler and O'Shea Jackson Jr. Are back. And this time, Gerard's character wants in on the heist. That's right. Big Nick is back in this time. That's right. The cop goes gangster. See den of Thieves 2 Pantera. Only in theaters January 10th. I just saw you wipe your nose. Are you sick?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, just have some. Some allergies. I think the air quality here.

[Bill Simmons]

How many times were you sick in 2024?

[Mallory Rubin]

2. I had Covid for the first time. I got really sick at south by in March. I came back. I was quite sick from that trip. And then I got Covid for the first time during the House of the Dragon run.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, back to both. Rewatch watchable scenes. I really like the opening credits. Just gonna mention that first day of practice with the camera crews.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Where we get Don's dad coming down to yell at him, throw him down, and completely embarrass him in front of a bunch of people. And then we also get Billy Bob.

[Todd McShay]

And make no mistake about it, gentlemen, we are in the business of protecting this town. We're in the business of winning. The expectations couldn't be any higher. We will win state. We will win state. Can you be perfect?

[Mallory Rubin]

Can you be perfect?

[Bill Simmons]

And you're like, wow, he's not gonna top that speech in the movie. And then he fucking blows by it much later in the movie. But I love this whole, like, the camera crews and you just get a feeling for the stakes. It's very well done.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. The opening stretch of the movie is amazing. Like, you mentioned the opening credits. I love, again, the montage nature of that stretch. Not only because we're getting, like, the classic, you know, Slam and Sammy radio calls. You're. You're establishing the relationship between the community and the team. You're getting, like, little nuggets. $60,000 salary for coach Gaines. And should the money be going elsewhere in the school? And wait, isn't the team part of the school? Like, it's a. It's a perfect tonal setup. And then you're meeting some of the kids. Like, you get to see Winchell with his mom. You get to see Booby training. They walk into the stadium for practice, and you see the list of all the state championships the team has won before. So you understand, without a single conversation, like, what the expectations would be for this team in this place. It's just, like, perfect tonally. And I love, too, in the locker room, the player dynamics, like the teammate dynamics, are established so quickly. You have Booby and Comer talking about Adidas versus Nike. You have the little bit of tension between Booby and Billingsley. All of that is before you get to, like, you're saying the Billingsley family fighting on the field and cutting back and forth between all of the interviews and seeing what the players think of each other. You really need that to understand what the dynamics are on the team. It's a great opening.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm also always a fan of the big board of the position players.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

The coach, moving stuff. And then at the end of the movie, you know he's gonna be like.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, I'm gonna take the name plates away. Sad.

[Bill Simmons]

The. The first game where we get some incredible music. Leading up to it, we get another excellent Billy Bob speech. And unfortunately, Booby gets hurt up 40 to 7.

[Mallory Rubin]

Brutal.

[Bill Simmons]

Because fudgeing Chris Comer. That loser couldn't find his helmet.

[Mallory Rubin]

Terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

Tough one. A scene that has been ripped off. I'll say it. I love Varsity Blues. We've done on the rewatchables. But they rip it off with the Lance harbor injury, even though it's five years for this movie. And then the Friday Night Lights TV show.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

First episode, street, they flip it with Jason street, the quarterback, and. And they take it to the nth degree in a much, much darker. Darker.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Way to go. Sorry, Craig. Spoiler alert. Next scene, Billy Bob tells Winchell that he has to step up.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

I like a little coach kicking the qb. Hey, I really need you. And he. And he gives him the whole speech with the end. If you decide to accept that, you're going to seriously fly, son.

[Mallory Rubin]

The thing that I love best about that scene, first of all, you have, like, the little series, right? You get these vignettes with Mike. You have like the pull and shoot sequence with the players. So they're bonding. It's actually like a kind of rare. Just slice of life, them hanging out outside of practice or game. Then you have the practice yelling, interview mashup sequence. Then you have that quick little payphone sequence where we understand that there are other people in the family who are not there taking care of his mom. He's like, he's your mom too, right? He's alone. And then we build to that Coach Gaines visit. The thing I love best in that scene is Mike is holding, like, a toy car. He's holding a little hot wheel or something. And it's this great little touch to just remind us that these are kids. Like, you had them saying, I don't feel. I don't feel 17 when they were out there in the pickup truck. But then, you know, the childhood bedroom, the toy in your hand, it's like, yeah, you have the burden and the pressure of an entire town on your shoulders, but you're like a child. And I love the detail like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's a good point. Chris Comer's breakout game leading into the let's Go montage for the season. You always need that in a good sports movie. Here comes Chris Comer. Oh, my God. I didn't realize he had it in him. This is emotional. Don's dad throws his ring out of the car.

[Mallory Rubin]

Unbelievable scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Splitting with Billy Bob, talking to Winchell again about curses.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

He has a couple great quotes. There ain't much difference between winning and losing, except for how the outside world treats you. I like it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great one.

[Bill Simmons]

I believe that our only curses are the ones that are self imposed. You know what I'm saying? We, all of us dig our own holes. I agree. And as this is going on, Don's dad is just losing the back seat and whips the ring out.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know what that is?

[Bill Simmons]

Do you know what that is?

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a state championship.

[Todd McShay]

I want a state championship.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just calm down. Can you touch that?

[Bill Simmons]

Can you touch that?

[Todd McShay]

Can you touch that?

[Bill Simmons]

What the hell are you doing? And poor Billingsley is just so upset now he's searching for the ring. For a second, it feels like it's going to be. What's that movie when the girl's head gets chopped off? We did on the hereditary. He's pulled outside the road. I'm like, oh, my God, is this hereditary going to happen again? But we don't realize that he actually found the ring. They do a nice little save the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Moment for later, but that morning after conversation is fantastic. When he plops the ring down. And just that line from his dad, who is like a. An alcoholic and an abusive father. And the movie, I think clearly is. Is holding multiple truths in its mind at once. Right? And this is part of why. This is like an interesting thing to Continue to explore. There's a critique of, like, the characters like Charlie Billingsley who say, this is the only thing you're ever going to have. Like, it is forever. It carries you forever. Or the guy who comes up to Windchill at the burger joint. It's like, can you take a picture with my baby? Yeah, this is it. It's just babies and memories after this. There's, like, a little bit of judgment of that. Right. That the idea that this is, like, your 17th year, your senior year of high school, your last year fighting for State is as good as it's ever gonna get. But then also there is, like, a embrace of how important that is at the same time. And so that Charlie Donnie sequence in the car and then that next morning really captures that. Because it's not like they hug at the end of that. Like, Donnie's crying and he plops the ring down and he charges out. So all of that is in there in that sequence, which I love.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That scene has. He gives their dad the ring back. Booby watches the garbage collectors.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Booby packs up the locker room and then Booby gets in the car and cries. And that's all. How many times did you cry during the rewatch?

[Mallory Rubin]

Not actually. Not really that much. Weird. Maybe just because I'm so familiar with the beats of the story.

[Bill Simmons]

No tears left.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

You'd say about your tears for round two in the NFL playoffs.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, come on.

[Bill Simmons]

The coin tossing you wanted to talk about. Because that's a really good scene, too. And it just shows how stupid Texas football is. Yeah. We're in a coin toss.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's just insane. Like, it's just crazy. I mean, I want to talk about it in a. Picking it. So it's hard to say. Picking it from a story perspective. Because it is.

[Bill Simmons]

Because it's a real thing that's happening.

[Mallory Rubin]

How it actually.

[Bill Simmons]

Undisclosed tracker location.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is. It's just so bizarre that something so consequential would be decided in that way. And then even, like, building it's. It's less. Less inane than the coin toss. Dec, which of the two of the three teams in the tie go? But just like, let's have a conversation about where we want to play the game instead of that being predetermined is so bizarre.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Imagine.

[Bill Simmons]

And that's the only time the book really, really, really dove into the race stuff in this town.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And one of the only ways they would let Peter Berg and the film crew even use some of the stuff in that town was it Was like, hey, you're going to. You're going to make a sports movie or you're going to dive into all this other stuff because it was such a big piece. The coin, the where do we play the game? Was the only real time they dive into. Like, what are we gonna have? Are we gonna have white rafts, black rafts? Are we gonna have a mix of both? And that scene dives into it the most, but for the most part, they stay away from it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a little Don Billingsley booby.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And there's, like, the booster dinner early in the movie. There's, like, a lot of racism in that scene, but in terms of it actually being like, the core text of a stretch of the film. Yeah. Picking where the game is gonna be and talking about who the officiating crew is. Go. Is. Is an outlier in the film compared to how prominent that is as a. As a focus in the book.

[Bill Simmons]

Next scene, I have, everyone gets on the bus for the Astrodome. Booby shows up on crutches.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Explosions in the skies, like, hold my beer, let us get back in. I have that as Kid Cudi. Pursuit of happiness. The word best needle drop. You could pick, like, five different spots, but this is probably the best one. Heading the first game shots of everyone on the bus. I feel like this is the TV series, I think was the most influenced by this sequence where they were like, hey, as long as we have, like, this kind of scene every couple episodes we're doing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, It's. It is the tradition in the show, not only of the team bus, but then checking in with everybody else who is driving to a game. And the fun, surprising pairings that you get. You know, like Tyra picking up Grandma Saracen, who is currently just thriving as Ethel on Landman.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a great point. We should mention that sooner.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dude. Ethel. Spoiler alert for the most recent episode of Landman. For anyone who's not current, this has nothing to do with the story, so it's out of context, but Ethel sitting in her old age home, saying, just once more before I die, I want a dick in my face.

[Bill Simmons]

Everyone not being surprised to hear that at all. She's like, I get it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Needs to redo their year. Endless. That is, like, the best TV moment.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the best quote. That was the best quote of the show. All right, so we have the game.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna skip to halftime. Preacher gets pissed. They're building the whole year. He finally gets mad, goes nuts, gives his speech, and then Billy Bob's like, hold my beer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Being perfect is not about that scoreboard out there. It's not about winning. It's about you and your relationship to yourself and your family and your friends. Being perfect is about being able to look your friends in the eye and know that you didn't let them down because you told him the truth. And that truth is that you did everything that you could. There wasn't one more thing that you could have done. Can you live in that moment as best you can with clear eyes and love in your heart, with joy in your heart? If you can do that, gentlemen, then you're perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

And. And he does his big speech, which apparently was improvised the night before.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great.

[Bill Simmons]

They had it written differently. And then he was just. Something had happened to him in his personal life and so many good stuff in this. But being perfect is about being able to look your friends in the eye and know that you didn't let them down because you told them the truth. You and I have had. We've said this to each other for a long time. I want you to take a moment. I want you to look each other in the eyes. Put each other to your hearts forever. He's just running, running on. I want you to think about Booby Miles. He's your brother. He's right there. His eyes are welling up. And then. Boys, My heart is full. My heart is full. If you're going Kyle Chandler versus Billy Bob. This. This makes it tough to not make a Billy Bob case.

[Mallory Rubin]

I strongly disagree with respect for this movie and respect for this podcast. It's just not close. And frankly.

[Bill Simmons]

Why? Tell me why. Well, you just love Kyle Chandler.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, he's like, one of the five sexiest people who's ever lived.

[Bill Simmons]

You gotta strip that apart. Come on.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, I. You know, I love Eric. Sad Eyes, they're both great, but I. Okay, here's. Here's my actual case. I have two main points here. One, the fact that the ingredients for Clear Eyes Full Hearts Can't Lose are present here. Like clear eyes and love in your heart, with joy in your heart. It's. It's clearly the cornerstones, the foundation on which Clear Eyes Full Hearts will be built.

[Bill Simmons]

But Gaines doesn't put it together.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. It's like you have. And now I think I'll acknowledge that this is one of those things where, like, you can't not think about the thing you've seen subsequently when you return to the film. It's not like that's in your mind in 2004. Because it hasn't happened yet. But now going back, I think that the, the Coach Taylor locker room speeches are like their own genre of magic. They're the thing that people would point to if you were talking about Coach. Here's, but here's the other thing then. This is the only good Coach Gaines speech in the movie. And that's a, I think that's a problem.

[Bill Simmons]

He has to win on the first day of practice.

[Mallory Rubin]

But, but the messages, I think in the, in the speech, like, this actually feels like this is Coach Taylor right here. These are the ingredients that they're going to build Coach Taylor around. But this isn't really Coach Gaines the entire time. You have like, you, like you mentioned that great line about winning and losing and what really are the differences? But I'm tipping my hand a little bit for, for a take I have coming later. But like a lot of the things that Coach Gaines says to the team I think are like, of a different variety. And my, my, my assumption for why that is is because you're building dramatic tension in the film for how necessary this feels at halftime of the championship game as like a bomb. The players need it. They need some sort of healing little ray of hope from the coach. They need to understand not only that he believes in them, but that it's okay. That it's okay if they lose, which they will. But this isn't really his energy throughout the whole movie. Like he's the guy pulling his players to the sidelines saying, are you the village idiot? So it is Coach Taylor all the time. It's only coach gains in the climax. And I think that tips it forever to Coach Taylor. Sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not even going to argue with you about this. The big comeback, by the way, this whole from halftime on is my most rewatchable. This is just if this was on TV and I'm watching 81 Trojan Horse, the big comeback. We get a shady fourth down pass, leads to the TD. We had a. When it bounces and the ref squirm on it. Yeah, we had a kickoff return td. Oh, there's hope. We get Chavez with the pick six. We get the, the Philly Special. I guess it wasn't a pick six because it sets up the Philly Special to Winchell.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we get a huge fourth down stop from the undersized tiny team leading to, I write Wiggle 34 Switchblade for the state championship. They put switchblade in there?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Flag in the play. Classic swerve. We've seen this in A couple sports movies. They got to run the amazing last play again. Fall yard short. Everyone cries, everyone's despondent.

[Mallory Rubin]

So good.

[Bill Simmons]

But Don's dad is finally proud of Don.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hugs them. Beautiful. They do this exact same thing with Saracen in the show where he's running and you think initially from the angle that he crossed the plane. And then you realize he came up just short. It's so good. It's like they couldn't resist doing it again. The sequence right before that final Winchell play, the Billingsley run. I mean, this is like, unrivaled in terms of its inanity that you don't even care is a name. Like, he's dislocated his shoulder, right.

[Bill Simmons]

And he gets hit by nine.

[Mallory Rubin]

He has fumbled all year long. Like, one of the through lines of the movie is that he cannot hold on to the ball. And so you know before it even happens that his big moment will be holding onto the ball when it counts as they pop his shoulder back into place. And then that, like, hold that holding call coming in and running it back is so genius because it gives you both things. It gives you that I did it. Like I crossed the threshold moment for Billingsley, but still puts the team in dire peril, which is just, like, exactly where you need it to be. It's great. It's great.

[Bill Simmons]

So you have the game.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I think it's either. It's tough. It's either halftime and the second half of the game, or I do really like the. The Billingsley family car scene. That's great. I think the only, like, the only things that you didn't have that I would even put in the consideration list are, like, that first. The first scene at the burger joint. That's great. And like, that's the kind of stuff that, yeah, is constant in the show. Like, again, just in the community. And I think that the. The inner cutting of the booster dinner and the party. I really love that stretch. I mean, the whole. The beginning of the movie is just. Is so good. But, yeah, it's got to be. It's got to be halftime in the second half of the game. That kind of has to be.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the most rewatchable scene brought to you by Den of Thieves to Pantera. What happens when a cop wants in on an impossible heist? Action, suspense, and a whole lot of chaos. See den of Thieves 2 Pantera, only in theaters January 10th. So what's the most 2004 thing about this movie? Oh, I'm gonna give you the. The two things in the finals.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

The Astrodome.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Or the football hits.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

This was like right near the end of the. Tom Jackson screaming jacked up after they show the top five guys getting knocked unconscious. This is the EA Sports Madden, like just people getting crushed. And you actually watch this when you. When you've seen this movie a couple of times, there's like 45 borderline beheadings.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

Or clotheslines. Where it just. It just seems like people are going to be carried off left and right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I just don't think they would make a movie that way now.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. Yeah, I think that. I think you're right. It's the combination of it being set in 88 and. And released in 04, that's like very. A very rich.

[Bill Simmons]

Varsity Blues has it too. Varsity Blues has a lot of like, jacked up stuff. What stage? The best. The football scenes are really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I would say like 9 out of 10, they're about. Longest Yard is still my favorite for football scenes, but this is way up there. I think he. I think Peter Berg did a great job. He took it really seriously. They did some cheat stuff where they actually filmed real games and then they tried to match the uniforms to the stuff in the game. So it looked great. Yeah, like really all. All of it was super savvy. The giant home of the Permian Panthers sign. With all you mentioned earlier, with the years that they won. I love those in movies. What do you have for what st. Best? Because I have a bunch.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's see. I mean, you know, just obviously, broadly, at the most macro level, high school football is a religious text in. In. In a Texas story. I mean, it's tough to top. And I think the combo of like, again, slam and Sammy and. And Ratliff Stadium, which is where the team actually plays that capturing that pressure on the players and the fact that they're like, they're gods, they're heroes, but they're also these just kids who are crumbling under the weight of expectations. I love that I don't feel 17 line and that like, longing, but also tragedy of the idea that like, it's 17 is the best it's ever going to get. That's. That's broadly my winner.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, hold on. Can we stand there for a second, please? Because I should have hit that harder at the top of you. It's obviously the theme of the movie. It's also a really good theme for a movie that this is. This is it. It's never going to get better than right here. And we've seen it in some sports movies and they usually had the character who was. Is now in their 30s and has two kids on the championship. They always loved that. It never really worked. That guy never becomes like, oh, he's now a state senator or oh, now he owns a couple of businesses. Things have worked out great. It's always like he's just kind of looking longingly at these 17 year olds. Like, oh man, that really was the peak of my life. But even like movies other like Dazed and Confused, it was a theme for the, for that movie too. Like this is kind of it. Yeah. For Randy. For, for Randy Floyd.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, and the thing that's so potent about it in this, not just this movie but the show, like a story like this is that it's supposed to be true for the kids. Like it's supposed to be a thing that they're thinking about it, but it's also like it's not just internal, it's really external. They're constantly being reminded that how other people feel is also on them. It's not just about securing their own happiness and their own memories. It's that they have the burden of insurance ensuring that an entire town feels like it has purpose and fulfillment. And what would that feel like ever? Let alone when you're 17 and you're thinking about whether your mom is okay at home taking her pills, that's just very dramatically compelling. And that's the thing ultimately where having, like you said earlier, more room in a season of TV than in a movie. That is the thing specifically that they were able to mine and I think a depth that, that you just definitely can't do in two hours. But still, like, tonally, they're able to establish it very effectively here.

[Bill Simmons]

All the Right Moves, which came out in 83.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And that was that. That was the first time I had really seen something dive into that in that way where it was like this team, we've never beaten these guys. We haven't beaten them in eight years. If you beat these guys, you're a mortar on this town. And oh, by the way, when you graduate high school, if you don't go to college, there's your job, your uncles, your dad, you're going to be working at that mill right there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's never, ever going to get better than this right now. And I don't know, it's a, it's a good sports movie theme we've seen over and over again. We mentioned the quick cut filmmaking.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, go ahead. You had more.

[Mallory Rubin]

We've hit a lot of mine. Tim McGraw. Actor. Yes. Sensational. James Dutton. Great character. Tension on the team. You know, I think I actually wish there were more of this. We get a little bit of that feeling.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a TV series.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is for sure. Yeah. Because like you built, you pick up right with the Booby Billings tension with Smash and Riggins, like immediately in the, in the pilot of the show. So it would be, it would be fun if there were more time for that. But that's obviously important because then it builds towards a great little moment where, you know, Booby gives Donnie his nameplate and he's like, I think it's gonna be worth a lot of money. And you're waiting for Donnie to tell him to off, and he's like, I bet it will. When your heart just melts. It's like, great. You know, a team overcoming adversity and then that team coming up short, like we talked about already. It's just absolutely magical. Meddling boosters is something we've also already hit, but is a definite. What's age the best. I mean, that is just tremendous montages.

[Bill Simmons]

I.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, you know what else? Dallas Carter's approach. And to be clear, not the ineligible player that led to their championship and season vacated in real life. But they never punt, they never kick. They go for it. On fourth. They go.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good one. Stage the best.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is like a great, modern, analytically driven approach. I. I really. I got a kick out of revisiting that.

[Bill Simmons]

That's funny. I. I had a couple more. Lee Jackson played preacher.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Only IMDb credit ever. In anything else. He was a University of Texas linebacker from 98 to 2002. Then speaking of IMDb, Billy Bob and Lucas Black, they were together in Sling Blade.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So they had the connection from that. They were also in all the Pretty Horses. What's aged the best for me? I love when it goes badly for the coach and he go. He gets back home and there's all the for sale signs.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible front lawn.

[Bill Simmons]

It works. They did in all the right moves too. It always works. I like Coach Gaines and, and, and Preacher. How is it out there? They're fast, they're big, they're dirty. Plus they're fast.

[Mallory Rubin]

You said that already. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you mentioned the guy at the diner or the outdoor. Wherever they were, the guy with the baby take the picture and he goes, don't waste a second of it before, you know, it's done. Nothing but babies and memories.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great.

[Bill Simmons]

Babies and memories.

[Mallory Rubin]

So good.

[Bill Simmons]

Good name For a sports bar. I like boobies, mri. When. When he's distrustful of the guy from Midland, too. I just thought that was accurate. Anyway, the Fortune 3 Clap Award for most gifable moment, I think is also the Great Shot Order award for most cinematic shot.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Don and Mike slumped over the one yard line. Just like, complete despondence, despair.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great one.

[Bill Simmons]

I. I took us. I took a picture of it, and I'm gonna mail it to you after the Ravens get eliminated in round two. Probably like a week later, though. A week later, depending on how many points you have.

[Mallory Rubin]

I appreciate it. Yeah, they're. They're drenched in blood. Hopefully I won't be, but.

[Bill Simmons]

The. I don't. The proper response is, your team's not in the playoffs. You could have just said that back to me. Your team is 3 and 3 and 13.

[Mallory Rubin]

Unlike you, I'm not a heartless monster. Also, you're going to get to. You're going to get too good of a draft pick for me to be rude to you right now. I can't believe you guys get to get to rebuild. Like, assuming.

[Bill Simmons]

Assuming our dumbass team doesn't beat Buffalo. The Den of Thieves Benny Han Award for scene stealing location. Would you go? Astrodome. The Astrodome. Just an incredibly important sports movie location.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm going undisclosed truck stop for the coin.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a great choice. I love it.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's just so funny to me that they're like, we can't tell you where we are. And then there are visible signs.

[Bill Simmons]

What's going to happen? When are people going to show up there? What's going to happen? I guess Big Kahuna Burger or Best Use food to Drink. Probably Mike's burger in the beginning because it made me hungry.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

When the guy comes over, he's eating that burger. Texas cheeseburger. What do you have?

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, I have two other candidates for you. One would be the car. Chocolate milk cartons and breakfast burritos in front of the 7 11. And then the cop pulls up and he's like, you're going to win state. But I think this is actually the winner.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

The foundation on which the rally Girl plot lines and Friday Night lights were built. Karen's Rice Krispie model of Billingsley.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, got to be that. That's got to be the winner. Well, we only get to do this category when you're on the podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

The Mallory Rubin Award for Did this movie need a Better Sex Scene? This is a movie where a very fanatical fan of the team gets Windchill in a laundry room and has sex with them?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Kind of bullies him into it. I don't know. I don't know if you would. Gone further. Is there a different sex scene? What's the move?

[Mallory Rubin]

Thanks for asking. So, no question this movie needs a better sex scene. Could it have been opening earlier on the Mike Melissa sex scene instead of just cutting to Lucas Black panting into the bathroom mirror? Maybe. Could it have been seeing how Donnie rewarded Karen for the Rice Krispie Treat model? Possibly. Could it have been seeing what Flippy and Charlie Billingsley were up to before Maria and Donnie came home and started to fuck on the couch? How'd she hear her name? Flippy? Bill. I'd like to know. Could it be preacher man taking someone to church? It could be any of those, but it's not. Here's the actual pick. It's Coach Gaines and his wife Sharon. We need a sex scene between the. Gaines is. Because those moments between Eric and Tammy in the television show are such an essential part of why when people talk about that show, they're like, yeah, it's a great sports show. It's a great high school drama. What it really is, is like the best portrayal of a marriage in the history of tv. And you get just none of that in the movie. You have like the little moment in the parking lot where they run into the boosters. You have the cute little, like, kissing through the chain link fence after the loss. We need to see these two in.

[Bill Simmons]

Bed point thing we do.

[Mallory Rubin]

We get the break point. We need to see them in bed together, cuddling. Because, like, when she sits down and he's watching tape and he's prepping for the Carter game and she's like, let's move to Alaska. You get that little glimpse of what their domestic life is like. She's waiting by the for sale signs on the porch when he gets home. We need to be in bed with them. Have to have it. It's just got to be in there. If they made the movie again, we'd have that, I think. No doubt.

[Bill Simmons]

So I had that. In what stage? The worst. How they. I wrote the coach wife marriage. They just punted on it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where was the Connie Britton heat check scene? So you're saying you'd even go further and have the sex scene. So in the oral history we did at Grandland, Peter Berg's talking about how he's trying to convince Connie Britton to be in the TV show. And this is what he said. Connie Britton's role in the movie was sort of pretty wife clapping in the stands, which is about the shittiest job an actress can have. At least Talia Shire got to own a pet store and go ice skating with Rocky. So then Connie Britton said, Pete got in touch with him, why don't you play this part? I was like, no way. The only thing worse than playing a nothing part in a movie is playing it for years and years on tv. So Pete Berg said, she said I was out of my mind. I told her, I promise we'll create a character, we'll give you a job, we'll give you dimension, we'll give you a real voice. And they did. And she became one of the best characters. That marriage was fantastic and it was the key to the show. You would never know that from this movie that that was going to happen.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think there's any question. Sometimes we rip off like 15, what's age the worst. And it's like, ooh, toss up. I don't think there's any question that it's this.

[Bill Simmons]

Keeping Coach Taylor's wife on the bench for a two hour movie and just not even running a play for her.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because like, even when you watch it the first time, you're kind of like, this is a nothing part and a nothing character. This is just sort of like weird. Just to establish that he has a loving wife and support at home and like a family where if the town runs them out and the kids, like, do we have to move again? There's some sort of like direct personal consequence. That's like it. That's the only reason to have them in the movie at all.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

So the first time you see it, you're like, eh. But coming back, knowing what we know after Tammy Taylor has blown us away for five seasons, it's one of the best performances like ever on tv. And like you said, one of the most memorable characters. This is just kind of like unforgivable. It's really damning.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what this is? This is a sports movie issue over and over again with girlfriends and wives. They just, if they didn't really know what to do with them, they just kind of put them on the side and then cut to them during a big game. Yeah, you're leading me to that easily. Could have been for me the Butch's Girlfriend award for weak link in the film. Yeah, but that's not what I had.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I combined it with the Vincent Chase award for. Are we sure this character was actually good at his job? I have a feeling you have some thoughts on this as well, Coach Gaines? Maybe just a bad coach.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is my hottest take, but maybe it's not that hot.

[Bill Simmons]

So I just. Stuff I wrote down. You might have more. First day of practices. Let's just. Starting fullback. Just get the shit beaten out of him on his. On the field by his dad. Maybe ban the dad from practice.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Ludicrous, guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Abusing your starting fullback. First game. If Chris Comer was the backup to the backup and he couldn't find his helmet. When you're at 42. 7 with 90 seconds left, maybe put in the second string running back, you have a giant Texas football team.

[Mallory Rubin]

This drives me crazy. This drives me crazy. Put in Wilson, the second stringer. Put in Billingsley.

[Bill Simmons]

Call timeout.

[Mallory Rubin]

Anything other than putting Booby back in. Anything. And we should say, like, I don't know if you want to talk about this elsewhere, but this is not how Booby got hurt in real life. He got hurt in a pretty scrimmage, his leg getting.

[Bill Simmons]

Movie only. This is movie only.

[Mallory Rubin]

Movie only.

[Bill Simmons]

Then after. After the game, he tells the team, Booby's fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is like, I wrote this in all cast line. Lying to the team in this situation is deranged.

[Bill Simmons]

Booby's gonna be fine. Booby's gonna be fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

He'll be back in a week. What is the point of telling this lie? What is the point of this? This is like, I can't wrap my mind around this. This is deranged, pathological.

[Bill Simmons]

Why doesn't he try to find any information about Booby's knee from that point on?

[Mallory Rubin]

Crazy doesn't. Crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, you're the most powerful guy in town. You're the football coach. You have all these boosters. You don't have one medical booster. There's not one person can be like, hey, something's going on with Booby's knee. We got to get the best doctor possible. Is there somebody we can fly in?

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

We got to get an MRI immediately. He's acting like Booby had Covid or something. Is Booby's Covid done yet now? We don't know yet. Maybe one more day. It's like, he's fucking neat. This guy's going to college next year. Where are the scouts? Calling, finding out more about Booby's knee. The movie just kind of.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I guess.

[Bill Simmons]

They only had two hours.

[Mallory Rubin]

They. This. This drives me crazy because, like, again, a movie I love, but this just doesn't make sense. And it's also like, we have the scene before he lies to the team. But after the injury where like the team doctor, one of the assistants is like, it's definitely like a tear. So he knows. And yet he's content to let Booby and LV lie to him multiple times when they're like, yeah, we're fine.

[Bill Simmons]

Put your brace on.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're fine.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, put your brace on. Let's try it in game six.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why is he not insisting that he has surgery for the good of his life? Because we get that little scene early in the movie where it's Coach and his wife, Sharon and LV and Booby. It is the four of them having a family dinner. And he's like, everything that happens to you this year, you deserve that. Is there to tell us one thing, that he genuinely cares about this kid and that there's a closeness between these families that transcends whatever happens on the field.

[Bill Simmons]

And then he doesn't back up any of it. And then he's giving the speeches to, like, Winchell about, like, trying to get. Trying to get. Elevate those guys. And it's like you just like, sent Booby out in the side. But my guess is this was probably based on some real life stuff. And I haven't read the book in a while, but I'm sure, you know, bizarre. I don't know why it took an extra game to start airing it out with Mike Winchell. I don't know why he didn't play Preacher at tight end at least on like, third and short. Preacher was 6, 8, 490 pounds and was Miles Garrett just like, maybe, maybe have two plays on offense. It's high school. The best guys play both ways. I don't understand why he didn't have more info on Boobies knee before he throws him in in the last game. Doesn't play him for three and a half quarters, brings him in, and then immediately runs two sweeps on him where he's clearly hurting. The first sweeps, like, run it back. What could go wrong?

[Mallory Rubin]

Deranged.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you mentioned earlier the Billings league. So my fullback has a separated shoulder. Here's my idea for a trick play against a much bigger Dallas Carter team. Surprise handoff and just try to knock off nine of these guys with your injured shoulder. That was his trick play.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I love the way that they. When they cut to him when they're popping Donnie's shoulder back in and he's like, nodding yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What other coach games nitpicks did you have?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, you hit almost all of them. I think there's like a Lot of Mike stuff. And just how he's coaching Winchell that puts him into the. Actually is. Is in the. Again, with respect to the real coach, like in the fictional. Fictional portrayal. Like, are we sure he's a good coach? Camp. Everybody after the booby injury is like you designed your entire offense and your entire team around one player. You didn't get anyone else ready to really have to carry the load. And then the way he's coaching up Mike is by calling him a village idiot too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

When Mike is crying and saying, my mind's not right and he clearly needs help. We do get the touching exchange, as you noted, but we also get him. We get coach G saying, your mom, you know, you're gonna have to leave her. You're gonna have to leave her. It's like, what, this is your advice for this kid who is just like falling apart in front of you. I also think on the are we sure he's good coach Front. It is bizarre. And this would be for the whole coaching staff, not just the head coach. It is insane and bizarre to me that they seem astonished that their third string running back. Third string running back on a potential favorite champion in Texas State in Texas is a star. And they're like, astonished that he's got speed and can run. It's just. I had that as a nitpick later, but it felt appropriate to hit it here. Just bizarre. And he's like downright hysterical. Hysterical during the Midland halftime rant. Which again is part of why I have to take him down below Coach Taylor for like the quality of the, the pep talks. It's just not. It's just not the same. It's just not the same. So that was. Yeah, that. So you had that as weakest link. That was my hottest take. My weakest link is not establishing other high school students in the movie. Again, I acknowledge that there's no room for that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. But I think 20 minutes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, but like you, the thing that makes Friday Night Lights the show magical is really like the Landry's with respect to his future career as a kicker. The, the Julies, the Tyras, the Lilas, the Becky's, like, it, it helps make these characters, real people and like their lives feel full. And it also helps make it a high school story, not just a sports story.

[Bill Simmons]

I see what you're doing.

[Mallory Rubin]

You need it. You need it.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I see what you're doing. You're worried as the years pass, the movie is going to start grabbing real estate from the TV show so that you're doing some subtle. Just so everybody knows. Don't touch the goat over here. Yeah, the movie's aging great, but just be careful.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's room for both. There's room for both.

[Bill Simmons]

What stage the worst? Anytime I see based on a true story, it's like, all right, here we go.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Based on a true story. It just means, hey, some of this stuff might have happened. And then we're going to take a lot of liberties. They actually stay pretty close to the true story in this one. Connie Britton's hair.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's the 80s, though, so it's set in 88. Doesn't it feel like 80s appropriate hair?

[Bill Simmons]

I get it, but I know. It totally does. It totally does. But I just am watching her, like, oh, man, I just can't wait till she's Coach Taylor's wife.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's true.

[Bill Simmons]

With a more modern hairdo. Man, this one really bugs me, Derek. Luke was 30 years old during the filming.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, he's great, though. But he's great.

[Bill Simmons]

He's great. He's fantastic as Booby, putting in the Andrea Zuckerman rule. If you're in your 30s, you can't play a high school kid.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell that to the cast of the Outer Banks.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's. That's another example. Movie mustache. Buddy Garrity. Is he belonging. What stage the best or what stage the worst?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think this is the rare one where you could put him in both, because when you see him in the movie, you're like, yeah, we wouldn't have gotten him as Buddy without this. And so I think we just have no choice but to be grateful. But it's not Buddy. You know, it's just not the same as Buddy because he has, like, three scenes. I do love the mustache, though. I think the mustache is great.

[Bill Simmons]

My last one is Don's dad interrupting the hookup. It's really grim. You've really kind of like, he's really getting skeevy in that one. Yeah, they go pretty far. What did you have for what stage worst?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think. Let's see. We already talked about Connie Britton. Just medical treatments, you know, this gets to what we were just discussing from the coach gains perspective, but more broadly, not immediately. Having surgery, trying to play again on the knee. It's just all in 20, 24.

[Bill Simmons]

You'd be googling the symptoms, and you'd have. You wouldn't just be like, oh, when's my knee gonna be better?

[Mallory Rubin]

It's 88. Like, it's not a. The. The odds of coming back at Full strength, obviously, are not the same at 88 as they would be today, but it's not like surgery for reconstructive knee surgery would have been unthinkable or rare. So it's just very, very strange.

[Bill Simmons]

No, that is a good. What stage? The worst, though, because now the torn acl, you'd fix it and you'd probably be the same or close to the same. But in 88, yeah, you were definitely gonna be different. Like, you were knee brace for the rest of your career type of thing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. No instant replay. Because there are, like, really a number of plays where they have that in high school. It's just the fact that in a sports movie, you're like, oh, man. And of course, they end up incorporating that effectively into the drama. Attention to the film. But, like, that conversation about, did Winchell break the plane? It's like, well, yeah, he did. You could just. You could just tell he did. Yeah, that. That. You know, the fourth quarter incompletion that you mentioned already, that was ruled a catch that clearly bounces. Like, we cut to people watching it on TV at home, they know it's a drop. So then the fact that they can't fix it in the game. Bummer. All right, I got one that you might think is controversial because you. You praised his performance earlier. Lucas Black is like the. The leading kid. I don't know. I don't know. I think we could have. I think we could have done better. I do. Sorry. I love Tokyo Drift, weirdly, but. Sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I think I'm blinded by Tokyo Drift because I like him in that movie. And when he returns to the fast franchise.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Could we have done better? So the one I. The one I would have rethought was, I like Jay Hernandez, but he just seems too small for me as Chavez. Maybe that was the point. He was an undersized linebacker, but he's. He's really. I mean, he. There's one scene when he's next to Preacher, and Preacher just seems like a foot and a half taller.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's also just bizarre because Preacher and Chavez are like two of the five players who get updates on their life at the end, but they have, like four and a half minutes of total screen time between them. Like, they're not really characters, and obviously they are in the book, but in the movie, they're like, you know, just not at the Winchell Billingsley.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, but do you think the Winchell Saracen, maybe the quarterback on the 88 team, was a little like that? Like you wouldn't have thought he was the quarterback. Little under. That must have been one they did.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I mean, I think in terms of. The comps are, like, fairly clear in terms of the characters. Right. Like Winchell Saracen. Winchell's mom is Saracen's grandma. Booby is Smash, Billingsley is Riggins, John is Buddy, Gary's Eric, Sharon's Tammy, et cetera. But the performance. So I think him being like a doubted guy who has confidence issues and isn't the star is appropriate. That all makes sense. They built the offense around Booby. Obviously, Saracen is coming in as like, the backup and then becomes QB1. So it makes more sense in that context. But they. I think they establish how, like, your quarterback wouldn't have been the alpha guy. It's not really the character. It's just the performance, like, is not. I don't know. I feel like Garrett Hedlund and Derek Luke are like, at a. Just a different level in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a spot for this and recasting couch later.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Overacting award. Ruffalo Hannah Ruben Partridge. I didn't really have one. I thought the acting was pretty good.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree. I couldn't think of anyone for this.

[Bill Simmons]

I also can't think of a better title for the movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, no.

[Bill Simmons]

No way can you dig it. Award for most memorable Core. We mentioned a slew of them. It's probably nothing but babies and memories, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think I would put out another candidate. Billingsley saying to Winchell at the burger joint, we're gonna get laid, we're gonna get drunk and we're gonna win. State it. But not tonight. That is iconic.

[Bill Simmons]

That is a great one. All right, we're taking one more break and then we'll hit the rest of the categories. All right. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest. Take a word. So you kind of gave yours.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. What's yours?

[Bill Simmons]

I think Billy Bob should have played the coach in the TV show. I think it's a better move for his career.

[Mallory Rubin]

Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, let me go through his career. So he's a. He's an a Lister in 2004. Here's what he does from 06 on. Again, the point of this is. This is the hottest take. School for Scoundrels. The astronaut farmer. Mr. Woodcock. Eagle Eye. The Informers, The Smell of Success. Deadly creatures. By 2010, he's in faster with the Rock playing cop. I just think it works out better if he's on a beloved NBC show for Five years playing co. Playing Coach Taylor.

[Mallory Rubin]

From his perspective, sure. But you want to rob the world of Kyle Chandler as Eric Taylor.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. I am speaking. Sure. Purely as Billy Bob's career strategist. In retrospect, better for him to be in the TV show.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure. I would like to believe that Billy Bob would not want to deprive us of Eric Taylor and Kyle Chandler. And he would say, I'm willing to languish.

[Bill Simmons]

I knew that would infuriate until I.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can return triumphantly to your Texas screens as Tommy Nari and shriek in horror every time.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe that's why he didn't do it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Angela FaceTimes me. It all worked out.

[Bill Simmons]

Casting what ifs. So I mentioned how Brian Grazer kept the rights. Alan J. Pakula, who's directed a couple rewatchables, was planning to direct this film in the mid-90s. He died in 1998. That didn't happen. John Abnett, who is a pretty well known director back then, he had a big run at it. It. Richard Linklater.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Was all in, wrote the script. They had a budget and then I guess it was too expensive. That got pulled and then it eventually led to Peter Berg. But there's apparently like seven different versions of this before it got there. Garrett Hedland moved to la, was in there for a month and won roles in Troy and Friday Night Lights.

[Mallory Rubin]

Pretty good.

[Bill Simmons]

Been LA for like four weeks. Not bad. I wasn't satisfied with the casting what if. So I texted Peter Berg and I was like, can you give me one casting what if from the movie that nobody knows? And he's like, there's a great one. Don's dad. The person that he tried to get was James Hetfield from Metallica.

[Mallory Rubin]

Holy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And he said it's a crazy. It's a crazy story. But it didn't. It didn't happen. And then Tim McGraw was. Was. Was great. So it worked out interesting. James Hetfield, who, Who's by the way, doesn't act.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why did he. So he wanted a musician no matter what.

[Bill Simmons]

That's something about James Hetfield's energy he thought would be the right guy for Don Billingsley's dad.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a great one. What a nugget.

[Bill Simmons]

Great cast and what if.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Sometimes you got to go off the Internet and go right to the source.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right to the source. Look at you. I love it.

[Bill Simmons]

The. The.

[Mallory Rubin]

The link later version of this is really interesting to think about. He's. He's an incredible filmmaker.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just a different movie. It becomes a Texas. It becomes way more personal. I don't know how it goes.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. Yeah, I'm, like, intrigued. And I. I think we would have loved it. You're right. It would be totally different. But, like, think of how you feel about. Everybody wants some.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like the thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Would it have gone that version? Yeah. Could have been fun. Best that Guy award. I. I feel like you're. You and five other people are the only people who know. Buddy Garrity's name is Bradley.

[Mallory Rubin]

Bradley, sure. The icon.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Buddy Gar is the best that guy because I see him in anything. I'm like, buddy Gar. I don't think of him as Brad Leland, so I think he wins.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's. That's the winner. I went. Just because he is Buddy Garrity. Always. To me. I went with. With Timothy F. Crowley, who is the official in the championship game, but is, of course, coached Crowley on Eric Staff in the TV show. He's another one who appeared in both films. And I went. I was like, oh, my God. That. That guy. Coach Crowley.

[Bill Simmons]

Really good. Deon Waiter's award. Buddy Garrett. He's eligible. Former Permian player coming in for the baby pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Girl who seduces Mike Winchell or Flippy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Flippy. Good old Flippy.

[Bill Simmons]

Or girl who is about to have sex with Don Billingsley and then it doesn't happen. I think those are all the candidates. Unless you want to go. Anyone with the coin flip.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wild to realize that's Amber Heard. I. I like your burger joint guy idea. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he wins. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Remember every minute.

[Bill Simmons]

Babies and memories.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't waste a second. Yeah. That's a good one.

[Bill Simmons]

Recasting couch. Director City. So I'm actually. I had the Lucas Black character down.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I couldn't think of anybody in that age range.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And what I realized was that this would have been an amazing mid-90s Matt Damon part.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

Like a 1993 School Ties era. Matt Damon as Winchell. But he was too old by the time they made this movie. But it was interesting. Whoever Matt Damon was in 2003, I think might have been the move.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. I like it. I think, like, one thing that feels really true to me based on where these actors were in their careers when the movie came out. And then also, of course, the way the show is cast is like, they kind. I think they have to be unknowns when they cast the new show. They have to be unknown unknowns.

[Bill Simmons]

I couldn't agree more.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. It's important.

[Bill Simmons]

Collinsworth Romo or someone else for the director's commentary. Who'd you have?

[Mallory Rubin]

I. It's hard to channel Chris's spirit, you know, CR Spirit when he's not here. I think I. I was able to really, like, clearly feel and hear Collinsworth when Booby got hurt, though, like. Oh, Mike, you just hate to see it.

[Bill Simmons]

To see it, Mike.

[Mallory Rubin]

The game secured. It's a blowout. The back outs are looking for some.

[Bill Simmons]

Reps. Oh, Chris Comer's got to find his helmet, Mike. He's just got to find it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I was thinking Chris Collins. Word. Talking about Preacher would have been really funny.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I want you to. Why he's being double team, Mike. Every game. These guys are huge. Every. Every play, he's killing these guys half ass. Internet research. There's cameos in this movie from Roy Williams, the receiver.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Ty Law.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a highlight of a Keep Talib at some point when they're splicing highlights.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

The real Booby Miles plays a permanent assistant. You can see him next to Coach Gaines during the big halftime speech. Saw that happen. Tweaks from real life. Booby Miles was actually a fullback in real life.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Don Billingsley's father, Charlie, lost the finals in 1968.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, man. So what did he throw out the window if not the state ring?

[Bill Simmons]

Number two ring. Real Booby got hurt in a preseason game. You mentioned that. And then there's a million differences with how the 88 season went that I'm not going to go through all of them. The most interesting one was Carter High. You mentioned that they had their tournament revoked or their title revoked. So the team that they played in the finals was Converse Judson.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And they ended up being the state champion. So Permian actually could have been. And then Permian did win the next year. Then. Then there's some stuff with how Perman was portrayed in the movie compared to. It's a much bigger robust town in real life, I think.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. Odessa. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we mentioned the racism stuff, too. Berg was so obsessed with the football scenes that he spent several weekends following Permian and an Austin team called Westlake High just to just to soak in everything and then try to put as much as possible in the movie. And then there's a kind of a bummer of a story about Brian Chavez because he went to Harvard, got his law degree, moved back to Odessa, and then ended up in this whole thing where he. He ended up in this huge fight. He got a felony. He had to give up his license For a little bit. And now he's back and it's all good. But it was. It was a big story at the time because when it happened, the movie had happened, the TV show had happened.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mountain, Friday Night Lights as a property.

[Mallory Rubin]

No. Come on. Next. This is not up for discussion. It isn't. You're trolling.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know you don't believe this.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Billy Bob Thorton.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, it's going to be Landman who we should just. With apologies to this and Sling Blade and Monster Ball, let's just. Let's just carve out the necessary turf here for Landman. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

It's dialogue. Like, that wasn't Sunday morning sex. That was angry Saturday night sex.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Peter Berg. No, no, but I think it. It's actually the TV series putting that together.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep. Agreed.

[Bill Simmons]

Was such a hard achievement to pull off. And then all the ways that show almost died and it should have died after its first season. I remember writing, I wrote about this in the magazine piece I did that year. Wrote a magazine column about it because it seemed like it was going to get canceled. And I had stopped watching it like everybody else because it was pre streaming. And if you didn't watch, you know, if you felt like the show was going to get canceled or you missed the first two episodes, it was really hard to jump into a show. And the show didn't do well. And then that summer there was some rerun stuff. A friend of mine got me these Japanese DVDs that I watched that summer. Caught up. And then I was like, we can't get this. The show has to come back. It came back. Writer strike. Probably should have been canceled after the writer strike. Is it a bad second season? Which we don't talk about.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. But 3, 4 and 5 are amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

3, 4, and 5, they also, they nailed. We have to graduate some of these guys and bring new people in. Are the new people going to hold up to the old people? And they had this new cast that included Michael B. Jordan. So everything he did with that show, I think he's had a really good career. He's directed a lot of big movies. He's made a lot of money. But I still, I would think he would agree that the show is. Yeah, the apex.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, I think because they're so proximate to each other time wise, like you could just lump it all together. But I. Yeah, the property, like, I agree. I think that, you know, season one of Friday Night Lights is unbelievable. You mentioned season two Season three is really great. I don't. It's hard for me to think of too many resets, like, story resets that are on par with moving Coach Taylor to East Dillon. Yeah, it was great, like, and pulling it off at that level and making you. You have invested for three seasons at that point in the Panthers, and you are rooting so fervently against them and for the Lions by the time they face off, it's just astonishing. Like, I have a Vince Howard jersey. I love the Lions. Season five of that show is unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

Some of the cast. Yeah. To get Michael B. Jordan at that point in his career is unbelievable. Yeah. My favorite show, I. And I wrote about this at the time, but my favorite sports show ever was the White Shadow, and they never figured out that third season when they had to graduate. Some of the people. And they kind of kept the coach there. The people they brought in weren't as fun as the previous people, and. And the show just got canceled. So I think by the time we got to the late 2000s, they had enough evidence of how to not do this that they did it correctly. And they had a big twist. They brought in new people. They really. They really took pains to figure out who to cast. Anyway. Garrett Hedlund. I think he's. He's done some good stuff. I think his Apex Mountain was the country's strong rewatchables because he was probably as surprised as everyone else.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, man. With apologies to the entire Tron franchise, guys. Yeah, yeah, that's.

[Bill Simmons]

That's black Nikes. No, but big. Prominently displayed Texas high school football content. Probably the TV show.

[Mallory Rubin]

TV show? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Tim McGraw.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, no, no.

[Bill Simmons]

Sports movie coin tosses.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. Wow. That's a great one.

[Bill Simmons]

A coin toss. I'm gonna say yes. Jay Hernandez. No, because I think he's been in a bunch of stuff. Lucas Black. It's probably Tokyo.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's Tokyo Drift. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Horrible sports movie. Parents.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, boy. Crowded.

[Bill Simmons]

Feel really tough to top. Charlie Billingsley.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's bad. Yeah. Geez. That's a good one. That's a really good one. Oh, I like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Anything else? Move on.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I don't think it's the Apex Mountain, really, for anyone or anything. Even though it's a great movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz or Hanks?

[Mallory Rubin]

Cruz.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Chris.

[Bill Simmons]

Coach Gaines.

[Mallory Rubin]

Coach Gaines.

[Bill Simmons]

What? Yeah, the case.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, I think the moments of, like, Mania that simmer to the four, where you have this kind of calm, collected guy who, like you said, can sit there when the boosters charge into his office and just sort of like nod and smirk and know that he has to play the game. He's got the. The button down shirt collar popping over his sweater.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But then we'll call his player a village idiot. Will just scream at them as they're letting this slip through their fingers. But then can kind of find the like, it's time to rally. Let's get hyped. Jolt. I think the Cruise version of this would be deranged but kind of mesmerizing. It's harder for me to see where Hank slots in the movie. Honestly, I usually pick Hanks as, you.

[Bill Simmons]

Know, know the answer. Hanks. But unfortunately, because we have a tie, we have to bring in producer Craig early. He's got to decide it. Cruiser Hanks. Craig, you have the tiebreaker as a Cruiser Hanks.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The answer is Tom Hanks. I'm sorry, Mal, come on. But cr, you can't. First of all, Cruz is way too small. Nobody will buy it. You can't have him as a football coach. He's like five, six. Billy Bob @ least has some size.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, but Billy Bob is too slender. I think Cruz has a thick jacket.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I also, I don't buy Cruise in Texas for some reason. Hanks to me can pull off the.

[Bill Simmons]

Southern great Point Craig personality. Cruz being like a die hard, long time Texas guy makes zero sense.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I see Cruz going toe to toe with the boosters in a way that I don't see with Hanks here. I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

So what's, what's the tally now, Craig? This is our last one of the year.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Hanks wins, it's 21 to 16. Hanks.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hanks.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Hanks won.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think this is the first time I've ever picked Cruz. Typical.

[Bill Simmons]

Can't. Can't wait to get Craig's take at the end. Racehorse, rock band, wrestler or fantasy team name? Would you go booby miles or would you go babies and memories?

[Mallory Rubin]

Neither. I'm going Mojo. My racehorse is Mojo.

[Bill Simmons]

Great dog name. You know, my wife looked at me last night as. As she was lying in bed with one dog on one side and one dog on the other side and said, let's get it. Beloved Jesse is 11. And she said, when Ben goes to college, we're getting a third dog. And she didn't say it in a way that it was an argument.

[Mallory Rubin]

What happened to her desire to get a cat?

[Bill Simmons]

I told her I was gonna move out if that happened. I don't like cats.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, you do.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't.

[Mallory Rubin]

You do.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't it would be the cruelest thing ever to do to Murph. It would ruin Murph's life. Life.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I could see Murf getting along.

[Bill Simmons]

Mojo would be a good name for a duck. Picking knits.

[Mallory Rubin]

Coop.

[Bill Simmons]

We did so many.

[Mallory Rubin]

We. A lot of these.

[Bill Simmons]

Cooper's coach didn't realize his cone was. His coin was tails.

[Mallory Rubin]

You every. Frankly, everything with the coin toss belongs in picking. It's all of it. Just absolutely all of it. Not revealing the identity of the truck stop even though they're.

[Bill Simmons]

It's happening in real time when they're 1969 Buffalo Nickel. What's that? That. Who flips a nickel and a coin toss. It has to be at least a half dollar.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff. Great stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Last game, there's some score issues. Again, I'm right here. I've been here for the last 30 years as a sports movie consultant. Last game goes from 18 to 7, is 26 to 7. Right before the half, they say it's 18 to 7, and then at halftime it's 20. I don't know what happened with the extra eight points.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's not only some scorekeeping wonkiness, but there's some just general timeline wonkiness. Like I always, always trip up on the fact that when Booby goes to Midland for his MRI and he's like they said three weeks. Three weeks is up. I'm ready to play. But right before that, we get that montage and we hear that. We hear that permanent is five and one.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Booby got her the first five weeks. Those are not that. Just that math is not the same in the game.

[Bill Simmons]

All of a sudden it's 26:14 in the third quarter. We don't know how they got the second touchdown.

[Mallory Rubin]

Mm.

[Bill Simmons]

Which will takes 30 rough in the QB penalties. I know it was a little. It was a little crazier back then. A little more violent.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I don't remember an era of football ever where every single time the quarterback was just getting teed off on three seconds after he released the ball. I'm positive that was always a penalty.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's wild in the concussion protocol era to see him get kicked in the face and just stay in the game. He had previously also had, like, a neck wound.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Some amazing, amazing.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And.

[Bill Simmons]

And I would add Preacher at tight end on any third and short. He's just going in. The team's gonna. The defense gonna have to worry about him. You have any nitpicks or can we keep going?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think we hit all of them. I Guess I'll just say like Winchell basically being Will Levis the entire movie. It's just like, you know, the reactions to the bad throws across the field and then suddenly being Russell Wilson with pinpoint precision on 50 yard bombs.

[Bill Simmons]

Heat it up. He's like Jordan Love. As soon as he's down 20 heats up the Jordan love story. Sequel, prequel, prestige TV, all black cast, untouchable. Well, we have an answer to that one. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Tres, Sid Goldberg, Sam Jackson, J.T. walsh, Nell Byron Mayo, Harling Maze, Evil lan Raymond Long Legs or Philip Baker Hall? Trejo hasn't won this all year.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Trejo is Chavez's dad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

We get one bar scene with him. He's a little rowdy, but he's a great dad. And somebody insults the team and he ends up fighting two guys in the bar and just does Danny Trejo stuff. And then maybe he gets beaten almost near death. And Coach Gaines comes to see him and he's like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gary, I like it.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't leave me like this. Leave me homes.

[Mallory Rubin]

I like it. As a daughter of Baltimore, I'm always going to pick Wayne Jenkins here and I would, I would posit that there's not a scene in the movie, not one where Wayne Jenkins doesn't perfectly fit. You can see him as an angry, trash talking assistant coach on a rival team. You can see him as stadium security. I like him best. As is a dirty cop. Right. Staying truly in the Wayne Jenkins aura. Who is convincing one of the players to throw a game because he's in gambling debt.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's. I thought you were gonna go coin toss. He's there in the coin toss, just being like 1969 Buffalo Nickel. Oh, look at this guy.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I didn't know we were dealing with super coin. I love it. That gets me to one of my unanswerable questions. I'm so curious what you think about this on the coin toss front. Front?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

What's to stop two of the three coaches from just like we're in cahoots. Let's weight the coins. It doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter if the coins team two heads. Yeah, just make sure it's heads every time for two of the schools scandal.

[Bill Simmons]

That'd be good.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. Absolutely nothing in place. Not a single thing in place to prevent that outcome. Not one.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a great one. Just one Oscar. Who gets it? Probably the explosions in the sky.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's a great one. That's really good. I mean, I think best adapted screenplay, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's a good one too.

[Mallory Rubin]

Even though some of the changes and the way they have to compress the nuance of some of the characters and the story. Obviously it's a two hour movie, but I think the best adapted screenplay was. Would be the one now. Like, for me that stands out more than the acting performances.

[Bill Simmons]

Honestly, unanswerable questions. Why didn't Don move out? Couldn't he just lived on somebody's couch during the season? Did he have to be home with the most abusive, awful dad possible?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. You know, again, like where we have the TV show where Riggins and his dad have this very fraught, estranged relationship, but Riggins does not live with his dad. He lives with his brother. So that's on our minds. Certainly.

[Bill Simmons]

Boy, Donnie, just move out. Live in your car for a couple weeks. Where does Preacher rank for you? Greatest sports movie football legends we've ever had. Because like the bar for me is. And we did it this year on rewatchables. Fast times.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The Forest Whitaker character just demolishing everybody. That's like probably a 10 out of 10. Preacher's a solid nine. Nine. It feels like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

If he doesn't have seven sacks, force two turnovers and 40 tackles in the championship game, they probably come close.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's.

[Bill Simmons]

And I just like those characters in general. The guys who are just, you know, everybody wants some. Has that. Which is ironically the mustache guy. What was that guy's name? Not Glenn Powell. Glenn Powell is good too. But mustache guy who looks like Burt Reynolds. And everybody wants him where it's just like, he's just clearly the best guy. I like when sports movies there's also like. Like clearly a best guy.

[Mallory Rubin]

My fate, my favorite. Everybody wants some figures. Wyatt Russell. Remarkable stuff. Absolutely remarkable. I think that the move. The fact that the movie makes it feel like they have absolutely no chance without Booby knocks Preacher's legend down a tier. Because there's never a moment where they're like, it's okay. We have the most dominant defender. We'll figure out.

[Bill Simmons]

The problem is the dumbass coach was. He did a whole. Yeah, he. He built the whole offense around a running back. Didn't even know his third down. Running back could do anything.

[Mallory Rubin]

Classic.

[Bill Simmons]

I had for unanswerables. Where does this movie rank in the best football movies ever? And it's in the top six.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think it really depends on. I think Longest Yard is just number one. It has to be. It was the first one. The Football scenes are still great. And then the next five, in some order are Friday Night Lights, North Dallas, 40, remember the Titans, Rudy. In Any Given Sunday. Yeah, I think. And it really depends on what you want out of your football movie, but I think those five, if you're starting the discussion, I think those five have to be in it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

And then after that, I would do Varsity Blues, all the Right Moves, the Replacements and Draft Day, which we did together on the Rewatchables. Best really fun football movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love it. Where do you. Do you. Is this for you for high school football movies? Clearly the winner.

[Bill Simmons]

No, just football. Sports movies featuring football.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the only other one, necessary roughness is good. And then after that it gets pretty bad. And we haven't had one in a while. Yeah, we haven't had a good one in a while, I should say. But we've, we've. And I'm sure I forgot one, but I think that's the list. But Friday Night Lights is somewhere number two to number six. Interesting on the list. Interesting for Craig. Replacements is number one after we did Replacements. He was just.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great one, that one. Great one.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so that we're done with unanswerables. And now we have.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wait, I wanted to ask you for unanswerables. Give me some insight on the, on the odds on the, on the, on the, the lines. What were, what were Permian's odds to take it all in the preseason? What was the line for the championship game against Carter? Like, where, where are we on all this?

[Bill Simmons]

I think with Booby.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

First of all, thank you for asking.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're welcome.

[Bill Simmons]

I think with Booby, they're probably the number two best odds.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

So they're basically where like the Eagles are right now, Right. Probably like minus or. I'm sorry, plus like 300 plus 350 range. No booby. Championship game game. Dallas Carter probably like 16 and a half point underdogs.

[Mallory Rubin]

16 and a half.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Holy.

[Bill Simmons]

14 and a half. I mean, it was like all time powerhouse in a huge city.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Versus a team in a smaller city missing their best player.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. You might be right. I mean, there is that we get the glimpse of like the, the polar regular season games. They did. They did. Yeah. They also had plummeted to like 16th in the rankings like after the injury and losing the, the second game of the season. So obviously then they have to kind of work their way back up into good standing. But. 16 and a half. Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Somewhere 13 and a half to 16 and a half. I would say Okay. I mean, after seeing Dallas Carter, that you could argue maybe they should have been like 20 point favorites. But I almost feel like you have to do, like, college lines for that one. Best double feature choice. Varsity Blues is too easy, but I'm going to do it anyway.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's my pick as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, just Varsity Blues right into this. Let's get both sides. Sides of it. We get the super fun Texas version, then we get like the serious version.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And they're like, relatively contemporary. I mean, Varsity Blues is 99. You know, it's a five year difference. But that movie is just. It's just a study and debauchery. It's the best.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, we did that as a live show.

[Mallory Rubin]

I remember.

[Bill Simmons]

What theater was that?

[Mallory Rubin]

That was Largo. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The Indian Red Zwantne Award. What happened the next day? Just notable. Gary Gaines went to college after they won the title in the next year, became an assistant at a bunch of different programs, bounced around a little bit, and then came back to Perman in the late 2000s.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. So this clearly, I am assuming, inspires the season two plot line where Eric goes to be a college assistant. Right. And then comes back. Do you find this category to be quite difficult when this is based on a real story and, you know, what happened to all these people? This is, like, really hard.

[Bill Simmons]

Almost impossible. Could have skipped it. What piece of memorability would you want from the movie? I could offer you the Booby Miles jersey or the Booby Miles nameplate. I could offer you the permian coin, the 1969 nickel. I could offer you something else.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, man. I. I want, I think, Charlie Billingsley's championship ring, given the emotional weight attached to that one.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, no, that's like.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could pick the Panthers helmet, but it's. It's so basic. You know what would be really fun to have is one of the lawn signs for the players. Those are great. I would love a lawn sign. I would not keep it on my lawn. I would keep it inside my home. I would frame it and hang it.

[Bill Simmons]

You could have put it right the behind you.

[Mallory Rubin]

They could.

[Bill Simmons]

Your podcast territory still can. Coach Finock award for best life lesson. You may never met her again in your life as much as you do right now.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow, that's kind of a downer. I'm going with always keep your helmet handy.

[Craig Horlbeck]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

That's good, too. Who won the movie? Peter Berg.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it has to be this. This leads to one of the best television shows in the history of television. So I. I Think it has to be in terms of the performances. Obviously, Billy Bob is great. I really think Derek Lucas Booby is just tremendous.

[Bill Simmons]

He's great. Him and Garrett Hedland, I think. Yep, the performances stand out. All right, it's time. Producer Craig Horbeck had not seen this movie. I'm a little nervous.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wait, can we just establish. So you have not seen the show, Craig?

[Craig Horlbeck]

No.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't understand.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Have I not seen the show? I don't know anything about it. I don't know the characters. I don't know how the movie, how the show ends. I knew nothing about the movie. It came out. When did the show start? What year?

[Mallory Rubin]

But you.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, six.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, six. It went 06 to 11. But you. I don't understand this. You love football, you love story, just like Raj.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Those are my two core tenets. I don't know. I guess it came out when I was in middle school and I wasn't watching it live. And I think when I was in high school, it was like, it was harder to watch stuff after the fact. In high school, you're kind of just watching stuff in the moment. There wasn't like an easy.

[Mallory Rubin]

You had to do a DVD box. Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yes. So it's kind of hard to do that.

[Mallory Rubin]

That.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Before we start, just want to say, why do they let these. We're just putting a lot of trust into these Texas high school football coaches to bring their own coin to a really pivotal coin toss.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Three equal quarters. They're just like, yeah, whatever you want. Imagine a basketball team just being like, we brought our own ball to the game.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's ridiculous. That's what I'm saying. Like, what are they doing to protect against cheating? Like, you could make. You could wait the coin. You could get into cahoots with another team. Like, on unanswerable questions, the guy who fucks it up with the worn out coin, like, he's probably thinking for the rest of his life about, what if I just brought a different coin? The rest of his life.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The most. The best unintentional comedy moment was like, the guy who was ever running the coin toss was like, and over here, Coach Gaines has a 1978 nickel. And I'm like, what are we doing?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Any coin you can find.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a captivating scene for some reason.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It is.

[Bill Simmons]

Anyway, what's your take?

[Craig Horlbeck]

This movie was way, way, way better than I thought it was going to be.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

So everything you guys said at the top, I. I wrote down. And I completely agree with really smartly edited, very choppy, a lot of close ups. Even the color grading is kind of gritty.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I didn't realize how serious this movie was going to be thematically. I guess because it was a TV show. I thought it was going to be way more teen melodrama. A E. And it, like, wasn't at all. And I mean, very, very serious. Like, this is about peaking in high school legacy, disappointing your parents. I thought they did such a great job. And this is easily one of the most relatable movies for young athletes maybe ever. Or at least that I've seen. It's not a very Hollywood movie. I Remember the Titans is my favorite movie. And I think it's. Remember the Titans is kind of the in between between, like completely ridiculous and real serious. This, but that even has the Hollywood ending. This does not have that. So it's definitely closer to Moneyball than it is like the Replacements by a long shot. To me, I have to imagine the TV show is. Is much more melodramatic.

[Bill Simmons]

So were you. Were you shocked when they didn't win at the end?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Honestly? Yeah, a little bit. Because there were moments I actually didn't love the coach of Carter. I thought he was a little slapsticky for the movie. I thought they should have grabbed somebody who was a bit more serious because he. There. There was like, he was 10% replacements and I didn't like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he should have won the overacting award.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah. I didn't think could have given it to him. Yeah. But yeah, I honestly probably did think they were going to win. And I really enjoyed that they didn't. I also thought they hit a lot of really good subtle stuff. You know, I, like, didn't really play football in high school. I played for my freshman year. But I had a lot of friends who did. And just all the subtleties of. They're always eating because they got to maintain weight.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And all these guys probably got to be like 30 pounds heavier than their bodies want them to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

They're always stuffing their face with the burritos. The burger. I mean, he's eating that burger for. For like two straight minutes. It feels like he has three on his plate. I love that everybody in town is a psycho. They're constantly asking the kids if they're going to win state. You know, they're pulling up next to the cops.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Hey, boys. Going to win state this year here? Yes, sir. Gonna go undefeated. Yes, sir. And it's just like, so good. All the. The disregard for women is so 80s in Texas and it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

How's your. Hey, Coach Gaines, how's your pretty wife doing? Like, man, this is great. And I have to say, I think the most, honestly, the most harrowing scene perhaps of The. Of the 20th of the 2000s is Tim McGraw watching his son hook up with Maria. I think that is a fucking horrific moment. Moment. It's terrible imagining that in high school I would be out of that house in the next 10 minutes. My God. Just. Just an unfathomable situation. I. You guys should have hit on even Byron.

[Bill Simmons]

Even Byron. Mayo wouldn't have done that. Like he would ask for permission from somebody.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dad, just go back to your room.

[Bill Simmons]

So. So did this make you want to watch the TV show now? Could be the next step. You and Liz, you have to.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, I think it might be.

[Mallory Rubin]

Next three watch Craig.

[Bill Simmons]

Did she watch the movie with you?

[Craig Horlbeck]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, cuz Garrett Hedland, I thought maybe.

[Craig Horlbeck]

She actually saw me watching from like she walked by and she's like, Garrett Hedland, I love him.

[Bill Simmons]

I was like, I. Yeah, like well aware.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dude, you're going to love the show. Like, I think this has a chance to genuinely be your favorite show. I'm not kidding.

[Bill Simmons]

Like two episodes and see how it feels.

[Craig Horlbeck]

But. But is it much more like, you know, teen drama Riverdale mixed with a football show?

[Bill Simmons]

Not Riverdale at all.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, there is teen drama, but like it's expert.

[Bill Simmons]

If you like the movie, there's no way you won't like the TV show. I would say it's an impossible season.

[Mallory Rubin]

Two goes wrong in a few key ways that we will not. But then they trust that they. They get their hands on the wheel again.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Also, one last question. So I found out, right, that they won state the next year. Year.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Why wasn't the movie about that? I understand that it's maybe more interesting if it's the losing team, but I'm just surprised that it's not about the year they won. Because to be like, oh, next year they won.

[Bill Simmons]

You're like, oh, the book was about 88. And I think they were staying faithful to the book because the book was like an iconic book. Like if you, if you like football and you liked reading, you read the book. But that's.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Did the book come out before the following season?

[Bill Simmons]

The book was about the 88 season and it came out after the season they won.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I guess I'm just surprised. Why write the book about the losing season and not the winning season?

[Mallory Rubin]

But maybe that's more interesting because overcoming Adversity is. Is more interesting. Right. Than just dominating.

[Bill Simmons]

He was a really big newspaper writer and he took a year off to follow the team around in 88. So that was what the book was about. And then he went back to his job and wrote the book.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So I think that's why they did it that way. But you're right, it's. I think there was a 30 for 30. I. I don't remember if I was still there or not, but we did a 30 for 30 about the Dallas Carter team at some point.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I can't remember if it was a short or what. We did so many of those. But yeah, the Dallas Carter, like having to give the title back was like a big. That was like a national story in the late 80s. So, yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I also, I think Billy Bob's. I, I think his best scene is the first speech when he ends before the first game. He ends his speech with. So let's take care of it.

[Mallory Rubin]

It.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I thought that that gave me chills.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you watching Landman yet, Craig?

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, I haven't.

[Bill Simmons]

So now Craig has two shows.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're missing out.

[Bill Simmons]

Fantasy football is over now.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

You got the playoffs. The Steelers are going to be out after round one and no more fantasy football. And you have the draft coming in a while from now. I don't know. You have some time for a show.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Great. All right. I'll pencil in Landman and Friday Night Lights.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think Landman. I don't know if there's ever been a better show that you don't have to 100% watch as you're watching it. You can like 89 watch it, but also like kind of look at the Internet.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It does have a 100 approval rating from everybody I've spoken.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not high enough. I think it's higher.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's the best.

[Bill Simmons]

110 should be the percentage rating. All right, that's it for the Rewatchables. That was our Last1 of 2024. Thank you to Mallory. Rubin was great to see you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you, Craig. Another great year for us. At some point we got to do the Rewatchables mailbag because we have all of these mailbag things that we can do. So 2025 next year, some fun anniversaries. It's the 30th anniversary of the 95. Really nice run. 90 was super fun. We've done a lot of the movies from those years, but we'll probably do some more thanks to Good how as well. That's it. I guess we're coming back next week. We might do two next week, so just know that. And you can watch all of these that we've done for the last couple years on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel that has some great stuff on there as well. Don't forget me and Mal and Joanne on the Prestige TV podcast next month, White Lotus Sunday nights. Craig, Mallory, thank you. Great to see you guys. Happy New Year.

[Mallory Rubin]

Happy New Year.