‘Jeremiah Johnson’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Bill’s Dad

Summary

The Rewatchables: ‘Jeremiah Johnson’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Bill’s Dad

Original Air Date: October 7, 2025
Podcast Hosts: Bill Simmons (BS), Chris Ryan (CR), Dr. Bill (Bill’s Dad), with input from Producer Craig

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Rewatchables kicks off the show’s “Robert Redford Month” with a deep dive into the 1972 film Jeremiah Johnson. Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Ryan and his father, Dr. Bill—as Dr. Bill calls this his all-time favorite movie. The trio, with occasional input from Producer Craig and Gahao, break down what sets Jeremiah Johnson apart in the western genre, its unique structure, gorgeous cinematography, Redford’s iconic performance, and why this story and its themes have endured. The conversation covers everything from the film’s survivalist appeal and historical setting, to its meme-ification, Redford’s career, and standout scenes.

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Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. Why Jeremiah Johnson Endures

• Dr. Bill’s History: Asserts it's his favorite film, stemming from the 1970s when he first saw it nearly alone in the theater ([04:13]).
• Gorgeous Cinematography: Multiple hosts marvel at the outdoor scenery shot in Utah, calling it “relaxing to watch” and “as close to a national park as you can get without leaving your house” ([05:01–06:23]).
• Old-Fashioned but Modern: The film blends classic Hollywood epic scale with 1970s sensibility and introspection ([05:39]).
• Survivalism Appeal: The “mountain man” genre and the man-versus-nature themes, which strike a chord for its drama and serene stretches ([06:53]).
• Bill Simmons: “For long stretches you’re just like hanging out with it” ([06:53]).

2. Historical Context and Genre Placement

• Rarely Covered Era: The movie explores the underrepresented post-Mexican War, pre-Civil War American west, focusing on mountain men over traditional cowboys ([08:07]).
• Disillusionment Parallel: CR asks if Jeremiah’s escape from civilization reflected Americans’ post-Vietnam malaise in 1972 cinema ([08:32–09:47]).
  • Dr. Bill agreed, noting Johnson's uniform and need to escape were “subtly commentating on people coming back from Vietnam being disillusioned” ([09:11]).
  • Notable quote: “He was escaping civilization and ... he just wanted to get away from it all.” – Dr. Bill ([09:19])
• Influence on Later Films: Dances With Wolves, The Revenant, and Last of the Mohicans are cited as spiritual successors ([10:30–11:55]).

3. Robert Redford’s Career and Performance

• Redford’s Favorite Film: This was reportedly Redford’s own favorite among his movies, largely because of his connection to the landscape and love of nature ([02:57–05:02]).
• Versatility: The episode notes Redford’s wide-ranging filmography and longevity; this film stands out for showcasing his rugged, physical side ([45:54–46:27]).
• The Iconic Beard: The hosts have an extended riff on his mastery of frontier facial hair, suggesting a new “Best Facial Hair Performance” category ([38:38–39:42]).
• The Meme Factor: The “nodding Redford” GIF is now legendary, creating a new kind of pop culture immortality ([18:08–18:30]).

4. Sidney Pollack’s Directing Legacy

• Director Pollack: Credited for mastering both the naturalistic calm and bursts of violence, as well as drawing great performances from his cast ([14:34–15:05]).
• Noted as a “director we don't really have anymore” for such versatility ([15:01]).

5. Structure and Tone – A Film of Two Halves

• Unconventional Structure: Typically, revenge occurs early in action movies. Here, the vengeance phase kicks in during the final act ([15:36–16:35]).
  • “If you're watching it for the first time, you’re just like, oh cool, this guy falls in love. This is great … then the cavalry shows up … as soon as they go through the graveyard, it all changes.” – CR ([16:22])

6. Notable Scenes and Characters

Most Rewatchable Scenes ([23:28–32:44])

• Hatchet Jack’s Letter: Darkly comic, instantly memorable frontier will ([23:34]).
• Bear Claw and Delgue: Memorable partnerships with quirky dialogue ([24:46–27:01]).
• Building the Log Cabin Montage: A time capsule of domestic, pioneer life ([26:32–26:57]).
• The Wolf Attack: Effective early-70s action scene ([27:09]).
• The Crow Graveyard Sequence: The ominous, fateful mission ([27:16]).
• Murder Montage: The escalation into the mythic cycle of revenge ([28:05–28:32]).
• The Legendary Ending: The ambiguous last standoff and, “And some folks think he’s up there still.” ([29:14–30:27]).

Best Quotes

• “It's partly Redford, obviously. It also rings all the bells in terms of the way he led his life.” – Dr. Bill ([05:02])
• “I read that it was coming out and then I read an article about John Liver-Eating Johnson… they exaggerated how many Crow he killed. One article said 300…” – Dr. Bill ([03:51])
• “This is about as close to a national park as you can get without leaving your house.” – Dr. Bill ([05:01])
• “He shaved his beard for her. He was probably getting used to her cooking.” – Dr. Bill ([17:24])
• “It's such a random movie to be... harvested like that, though.” – Craig, on the meme ([18:32])
• “You just knew he had a bad experience and he had to get away, left civilization to do that.” – Dr. Bill ([09:47])

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Notable Moments, Film Facts, and Running Jokes

- Real Historical Inspiration

• Jeremiah Johnson is loosely based on “Liver-Eating Johnson,” a mythologized frontiersman ([03:51], [18:20]).
• Redford even served as a pallbearer when Johnson’s remains were relocated ([19:00]).

- Meme & Internet Culture

• The nodding Redford GIF now introduces new audiences to the film ([18:08]).
• Hosts joke about social media, cross-over memes, and “Jeremiah Johnson” as fantasy football nickname ([18:30], [18:48]).

- Casting and Direction What-Ifs ([64:00–65:11])

• The role nearly went to Lee Marvin, then Clint Eastwood with Sam Peckinpah directing. Steve McQueen and Burt Reynolds are also considered “what-ifs.”
• The Redford “nature connection” is cited as irreplaceable.

- 1972 Aesthetic Flashbacks

• Discussion of overtures and intermissions—period signifiers no longer used ([34:25–35:54]).

- Humor & Reference Callbacks

• Several running gags: trading daughters for gifts, trading bear pelts for draft picks, and “Vanity projects” for actors wanting to live in the mountains ([12:08], [12:28–13:09]).

- Modern Streaming & Audience

• Producer Craig notes its slow pacing and meditation might be a tough sell to younger audiences, but calls it “a beautiful screensaver of a movie” ([90:08–90:41]).

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Standout Quotes

• “He was escaping civilization and … he just wanted to get away from it all.” – Dr. Bill ([09:19])
• “For long stretches you're just hanging out with it.” – Bill Simmons ([06:53])
• “The overture really sets the mood. … It actually works. It’s just crazy to watch.” – Chris Ryan ([35:33])
• “He’s got five o’clock shadow. He’s got a beard where it almost looks like it’s on his cheeks it’s so high… The way they use his facial hair, it really feels that way where it’s like he shaved, his wife’s dead, and then when he goes to get the crows, he’s got the right amount of facial hair.” – Bill Simmons ([38:38])
• “It's a movie I avoided.” – Dr. Bill on Eyes Wide Shut ([73:43])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:45]: Redford's love for nature and why this film was his favorite.
• [04:13]: Dr. Bill’s first encounter with the film in 1972.
• [05:29]: The appeal of the outdoor scenery.
• [08:32]: Vietnam allegory and disillusionment theme.
• [15:36]: Unconventional revenge structure.
• [18:08]: Nodding Redford meme.
• [23:28] - [32:44]: Most rewatchable scenes.
• [38:38]: Facial hair as a character.
• [45:54]: Redford’s unique place in film history and Mount Rushmore actor debate.
• [88:38]: “Best life lesson” segment: Don’t go through the Crow burial ground.
• [90:08]: Producer Craig’s review: “screensaver of a movie,” a tough but beautiful watch for modern audiences.

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Rewatchables Categories & Their Takeaways

• Best Use of Food/Drink: Swan’s “Hot Pockets” that Johnson can barely eat ([49:31]).
• Best Cinematic Shot: Delgue’s head sticking out of the sand as he’s rescued ([50:01]).
• Best Character Name: Paints His Shirt Red, with nods to “Jeremiah Johnson” ([50:41]).
• Dion Waiters Award: Bear Claw and Delgue debated, but Bear Claw stands out, as does Hatchet Jack’s letter.
• Best Life Lesson: Don’t go through a burial ground. Don’t leave your frontier family unattended ([88:38]).

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"Picking Nits"/Weak Links

• The plausibility of Johnson choosing to go through the Crow burial ground is roundly criticized ([53:00–53:46]).
• How did Johnson survive so many wounds and lack of medical care? ([54:28])
• Some desire for an outside-the-mountain prologue/scene to ground the film’s start in “civilization” ([54:49]).

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Lasting Impact & Final Thoughts

• Jeremiah Johnson remains a unique, beautiful outlier in both the Western and adventure genres. Its melancholic tone, naturalism, and understated lead performance have helped it build a passionate cult following.
• Its iconography (the beard, the nod), internet afterlife, and patient, meditative pacing mark it as a film that found its audience in the years after release.
• Dr. Bill: “I'm not sure Hollywood would make this movie today, which is a shame. Maybe that's why I rewatch it.” ([92:56])
• Jeremiah Johnson is both a relic of its time and, with its themes of disconnection and renewal, perhaps timelier than ever.

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Who Won the Movie?
Unanimous: Robert Redford.

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Double Feature Suggestions:
The Revenant (CR, Bill), Outlaw Josey Wales and The Searchers (Dr. Bill), Cast Away (Bill).

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Final Word:
Jeremiah Johnson is "the movie that proves you can’t grow a legend—or a beard—without surviving a few winters in the mountains."

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For further Redford analysis, keep listening during Redford Month on The Rewatchables!

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

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[Craig]

It's not really a crime, Bill. It's a journey of spiritual awakening.

[Bill Simmons]

My bad. My dad doesn't have a podcast. This is only the second time he's ever been on the rewatchables.

[Craig]

Yeah, but it's his second time on the Ringer podcast network in two days, right?

[Bill Simmons]

That is true. We you taped yesterday about on the Red Sox game one which will be. By the time we people hear this, they'll have known what will happen with the Red Sox Yankees in 20 hours.

[Gahao]

Three times.

[Bill Simmons]

The only other time you ever came on the Rewatchables.

[Dr. Bill]

Shawshank.

[Bill Simmons]

Shawshank for my 50th birthday. And now we are doing it's Robert Redford month. We are doing my dad's favorite movie ever, Jeremiah Johnson. It's next. This episode of the Rewatchables is presented by Paramount Plus. Around here we love talking about rewatchable movies almost as much as we love watching them. Paramount plus has movies, a mountain of them. New movies and also the classics that we keep coming back to. Almost Famous Gladiator, Top Gun, the Naked Gun, that mall, whatever. Whether you want to Relive your favorite moments or catch the latest blockbusters or dive into some old 90210. There's a mountain of movies to discover on Paramount. Plus, start streaming today. All right, cr. It's Redford month.

[Craig]

It is.

[Bill Simmons]

You can't have Redford Month without Jeremiah Johnson, which I did not invent the mountain man movie, but I think still is in the running for the best one. Redford said it was his favorite of all of his movies.

[Craig]

Yeah. Do you think that's because of his affection for the landscape that it's set in? I mean, it's essentially shot in his adopted backyard.

[Bill Simmons]

Right, right. It's filmed in Utah. He looks great. He gets to grow all this different facial hair. He gets to kill some. Some Native Americans who are coming after him. And it's a complicated situation. It's, you know, he's just a pilgrim trying to make it work and pisses some people off. And dad, ever since I was a kid, this movie was on. You would have this on all the time to the point we would make fun of you. Really? Again, Jeremiah Johnson. What is it? What was it about this movie?

[Dr. Bill]

Well, it came out in 1972.

[Bill Simmons]

You were. I was three.

[Dr. Bill]

Three years old. And I had read an article. I read that it was coming out and then I read an article about John Liveriding Johnson.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

About whom the film is loosely based, I guess. And the guy sounds like such a character. And of course, they exaggerated how many crow he killed. One article said 300 during the 10 years. And DA, da, da. So I was so excited to see the movie. And I remember going by myself. You were too young to go at that point.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

And walking out of that and then probably five other people in the theater. Because initially, initially it wasn't well received.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

You know, that kind of a movie at that point in time. And I remember walking out of the theater saying, I'm going to see this movie many times during my lifetime.

[Bill Simmons]

And it was on all the time. Yeah, it just felt like it was on for. It was another one that was in it. Not even on like tnt, more like whatever. Your local. What were your local Philly stations? We had channel 38, 56, channel 11 or whatever. Yeah, it was just on. It was just being on. It would be in a two and a half hour block with commercials.

[Craig]

What do you. What do you think, Dr. Bill? What. What draws you back to this movie over and over again? Is it the. I mean, this is about as close to a national park as you can get without leaving your House.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

You know, it's partly Redford, obviously. It's also partly Redford's love for nature. And, you know, he searched for peace in nature and then he established Sundance. And I mean it, I'm not surprised. It was his favorite movie. It just seemed to ring, you know, ring all the bells for him in terms of his life, how he led his life. I just like, I love the outdoor scenery.

[Bill Simmons]

Incredible.

[Dr. Bill]

You know, you don't. You don't see that in another movie. We'll talk about it later. I love the voiceover. I love the music. The whole package just clicked with me.

[Craig]

There's something very old fashioned about the way it's made. It feels like a 50s or 60s epic from Hollywood, but it has a 1970s sensibility.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And I watched it one time all the way through getting ready for this pod and I was like, yeah, that's about as good as I remember. It's pretty cool. And it's. We're going to talk about the vengeance turn it makes late in the film. But then as I like the last couple of days, I've been like, you know what? I kind of watch. Just want to watch him riding his horse through the mountains a couple times.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And I would just throw it on and skip to a vista that I wanted to see and then just let the movie play from there. And it really is quite gorgeous and really relaxing to watch some of, like just the absolute gorgeous, gorgeous scenery and terrain that they filmed this in.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's going to be a tough, great shot, Gordo category for us. It reminds me, and I should say the movie I'm about to mention reminds me of Jeremiah Johnson. But Castaway, when Castaway started making its run and it has that hour long stretch with Hanks on the island and there's no music and it's just kind of peaceful to have on. You can hear the ocean. He's by himself. There's not a lot of dialogue. There's drama and intensity, but not really. It's okay. And this movie, for long stretches, you're just like hanging out with it.

[Craig]

There's a. This is a little bit of a blank spot for me with. And I think for Hollywood as well, it's not an era that they made ton of movies about that. Like 1840s, late 1840s, after the Mexican War, mountain men. Real, real first frontiersman kind of thing. Like, you know, I think like Disney did the Davy Crockett movies. I think those are kind of like set around this time. And it's about him Going to Texas and stuff. But this is not an era that I know a ton about. But the survivalist mountain man genre, to the extent that there is one, and even just man versus nature is a very, very reliable sub genre.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, dad, we. I don't know how many Westerns we watched, but it just felt like the 70s were all cowboys versus Indians movies that had been made for 30 straight years. Right. And then Clint, who is. I think Clint's your favorite actor of all time. Right. Is he number one?

[Dr. Bill]

Yeah, he's number one.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So we would watch all of those, but this was. This had a distinct. That mountain man kind of movie. This kind of grabbed the corner of it, I think, the best.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, I agree that that era was not an era I knew very much about.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

1815 to 1840 or 45 before the Civil War, there weren't a lot of movies made about that period of time.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

And certainly not about mountain men. And the film does a nice segue eventually from mountain men to settlers.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

And. And then you started to see some movie about settlers and, you know, how.

[Craig]

The west one kind of stuff.

[Gahao]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

Dr. Bill, I wanted to ask you, you know, I was going to save this for the. What's the most 1972 part of this mo movie, but when you saw this in the 70s in the theater, did you feel like it was subtly commentating on people coming back from Vietnam being disillusioned? Because a lot of these 70s Westerns, like McCabe and Mrs. Miller and this. Some of the Clint stuff, like, proxy stuff. Yeah. They're like. It's about people who are disillusioned with what they thought they were told about the country or what they thought they knew about being a soldier. And now they've come back and they're trying to make sense of their lives. Like, did you feel like it had some contemporary parallels?

[Dr. Bill]

I definitely did. I mean, almost throughout most of the movie, he's still wearing his uniform.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

Uniform pants that must have eventually smelled pretty bad. They never came off. And he was escaping civilization and he was, you know, somebody asked him a question about is there a war going on or. And he just wanted to get away from it all. I mean, whatever happened in the Mexican War and whatever his part was in it, they didn't talk about.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

You just knew that he had a bad experience and he had to get away. And he left civilization to do that.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I mean, that was one of the unanswerable questions is, was he a deserter?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because he Asked at the end, he's. He. The Mexican War comes up and he asks, like, did we, like, who won? Yeah, who won?

[Dr. Bill]

Who won?

[Bill Simmons]

So he got out of there before then. There's a theory on the Internet. Granted, the Internet is batting a thousand.

[Craig]

Is there an art slash conspiracy Jeremiah Johnson board?

[Bill Simmons]

He is a deserter. It was his fault. We did we win the war. I don't even know who won the Mexican War.

[Craig]

Well, I mean, I think it was.

[Bill Simmons]

It was probably a draw.

[Craig]

We won, quote, unquote. But there was a lot of treaties and negotiations.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So I do feel like it's funny because Dances with Wolves, which. I really like Dances With Wolves. But it's funny how much it cribs from this movie.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Especially, like, the disillusioned soldier, like, kind of wit's end and then just on his own.

[Craig]

Yeah. And finds a kind of balance in his life when he comes into contact with an indigenous culture. And it's like, okay, this is. There's. There's like a sense of. There's a sense of symmetry or calmness or spiritual fulfillment here that I wasn't getting in the kind of grind people up, spit them out. American culture.

[Bill Simmons]

The three of us would have been done immediately because bad eyesight. We're just done.

[Craig]

I have. I have this in my.

[Bill Simmons]

We're done.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's no contact lens solution in the.

[Craig]

Wilderness, but this is a much more picturesque version of it than Rev. The Revenant.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That's another one.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So the Mountain man era. Jeremiah Johnson, McCabe and Mrs. Miller. A man Called Horse with Richard Harris.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Little Big man with Hoffman. Once Upon a Time in the west with Fonda and Charles Bronson. And then pick. I don't know how many Eastwood movies. And then you would see, like, Dancing with Wolves brought it back. The Revenant brought it back. People would go back. Even Last of the Mohicans sort of.

[Craig]

Yeah. That's like a. That predates all of this stuff. That's. That's still 18th century. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

So.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's still a dude outdoors who really knows how to do shit.

[Gahao]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And there's some bad guys in his world, and then he's got to navigate.

[Craig]

Yeah. And usually they come in, they have, like, a love that then, like, corrupts a love that gets sacrificed to, like, the modern incoming world.

[Bill Simmons]

Dad. It's like the. The boxing movie in the Mountain man movie. Or the two. The two vanity actor projects where they're like, yeah, I live in the mountains. I get to make a Log cabin. I'll grow a be like, those are the two, right? You would have been a mountain if you could have been an actor. You would have been a mountain man guy. I don't see you in the ring.

[Dr. Bill]

No, I would not have been in the ring. And I was a boy scout. An eagle Scout, remember?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's true.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, wait.

[Dr. Bill]

I could live in the outdoors.

[Bill Simmons]

So what is it about the mountain man movie? What? What? What do you love? The. The piece of it, the serenity, the fact that our guy has to just rely on his natural wits to make it like, what is it?

[Dr. Bill]

That's part of it. But I thought there were some intriguing characters in the movie that you don't see in many other movies, each character bringing something different to Jeremiah Johnson's life. And we'll talk about those characters.

[Bill Simmons]

But I thought they all.

[Dr. Bill]

It all melt. It blended well for me from beginning to end.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm guessing Boy wasn't one of the characters.

[Craig]

Caleb, I will call you Caleb.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, okay, I don't speak.

[Craig]

Yeah, I'll do whatever you want.

[Dr. Bill]

Caleb was one of those characters, though. Who knows what Caleb saw? And if any one of us had been in that position, maybe we would have lost our voice. So we wouldn't have wanted to communicate also, you know.

[Craig]

You know, Fanduel out there, like, there's not a lot to talk about, you.

[Bill Simmons]

Know, I mean, Caleb was like me and my dad after Game 7 against the Heat in 2023. Dad's like, boy, we must leave.

[Craig]

I will call you Caleb.

[Bill Simmons]

We. Tatum is hurt.

[Gahao]

The.

[Bill Simmons]

Sidney Pollock directs this movie. This is seven Pollock Redford movies collaborations that they did. This one puts Pollock on the map, though. I mean, I know he had done. They don't shoot horses, don't they? Like he was. But this, from this moment on, he just rips off. He does the Way We Were. Are you a yakuza guy?

[Craig]

Yeah, I'm a yakuza guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Of course you are. Three Days of the Condor, Bobby Deerfield, Electric Horseman, Absence, Balance, Tootsie, and then they win all the Oscars for Out of Africa. Right?

[Dr. Bill]

He.

[Bill Simmons]

He has a run, of course, leading to his incredible performance and Eyes Wide Shut and one of the great performances.

[Craig]

Of all time partnered with his incredible performance in Michael Clayton as well. He was a really good character actor as well. He's the safest, one of the safest pairs of hands you could put a movie in after 1965. You know, I don't. Whenever he starts and he just is expert at Getting great performances out of people. He's got a good eye, and he knows how to cut a movie and keep it going. But, yeah, he's the kind of director that I. I do not feel like we have anymore, really.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Somebody that could do Jeremiah Johnson in Three Days of the Condor, maybe Mangold.

[Craig]

Is kind of like that. He could do a superhero movie. He can do a Bob Dylan movie. He can do a race car movie and a western, you know, but it's. It's. They're. They're few and far between now.

[Bill Simmons]

He also directed the Firm, but really good at laying stuff out in a. In a peaceful, awesome way. But then also suspense and action and chase and, you know, battling those. I just watched Three Days of the Condor recently to scout it for Redford Bunch.

[Craig]

You better be.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just an elite movie.

[Dr. Bill]

I just watched that also.

[Bill Simmons]

It's really good. The.

[Craig]

The interesting thing that happens in this movie because you guys both love westerns. I love westerns. And we both. Well, the three of us all love revenge movies. Usually John Wick, a Clint Eastwood movie, Charles Bronson movie.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The inciting event that brings on the revenge happens in the first, like, half hour of the movie.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Here it happens in the last half hour of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Craig]

And it really kind of makes this a very odd, unconventional film to watch, because if you know it, if you're watching it for the third, fourth time, you're like. And then the last half hour, this movie is super dark and weird and intense, but if you're watching it for the first time, you're just like, oh, cool. So this guy falls in love. This is great. We've been here for an hour and 40 minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Three of them, they're playing lacrosse.

[Craig]

Nothing can go wrong. And then, you know, as soon as the cavalry shows up, they're like, oh, God, guys, don't go through the graveyard. Don't go through the burial ground. And it really makes a turn in the last 30 to 40 minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, can you give away any takes without giving away your take? Did you. When you watched the first hour and a half, were you just thinking you were hanging out in the mountains with Robert Redford?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Producer Craig]

I was devastated when they killed the wife and kid, but I do think it. It's like, I wish the movie had an extra half hour because it made that murder hit much harder than what happened at the beginning of John Wick. And you really developed a relationship and felt so comfortable. So it. Was it one of the bigger blind sides I can remember in a movie Honestly.

[Gahao]

Yeah. All right.

[Bill Simmons]

Save the rest of your takes. Yeah, it's. It. It is two different movies.

[Dr. Bill]

I'm still missing Swan.

[Craig]

Swan.

[Bill Simmons]

Swan was really. It was all coming together.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, you get given away by your dad because he owes somebody a gift.

[Gahao]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's usually not going to work out well. And she ended up with a decent life.

[Dr. Bill]

He shaved his beard for her. He.

[Craig]

He was probably getting used to her cooking. Yeah.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know about the cooking part.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So the other thing about this movie that we have to mention, it now lives on for a completely different way. It became. I don't even know if you know this, dad, but on social media there's a gif where the camera zooms in on Redford and he's nodding and it just became this omnipresent social media thing. Like, if you agree with somebody's point or if you really like a trade or you like some, you would just post the Redford Beam. And now there's like two generations of people that only love this movie. They just know that he has a cool beard and he's just nodding.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Knowingly. Then there's a Nicholson one that's like a cousin of this.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's the. That's another nodding one. I think that's from. Is that from the Shining or.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, no, it's later. It's almost. It's from. I think it's from. I don't even know. Oh, that's what it is.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But those are like. Craig, those are the two big nodding memes, right?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Nicholas.

[Producer Craig]

More of nodding.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So it just. The movie completely changed complexion.

[Craig]

It's such a random movie to be. To be harvested like that, though.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it was based on the Crow Killer, the saga of Liberating Johnson, which sounds like my dad did some research on Liberating Johnson. That's it. We may not have to bring that nickname back for a football player.

[Craig]

That's like a 1920s baseball player nickname.

[Bill Simmons]

Liver Eating Johnson. It's like Two Finger McCoy, like linebacker that keeps getting suspended in the NFL. They just call him Live Reading.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

Redford got a lot of publicity because two years after the movie came out in 1974, they moved liver Eating Johnson's body.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

Different location. And Redford asked to be one of the pallbearers, which.

[Craig]

No kidding.

[Dr. Bill]

Yeah. Pretty fascinating little tidbit.

[Craig]

That's a commitment to the bit.

[Bill Simmons]

It's really. The guy resonated with him. He's one of his favorite characters. Who's your Favorite guy, Liver Eating Johnson. So apparently he would cut out the livers of Crow Indians he had killed and eat them.

[Gahao]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if that was an urban legend or not. They decided not to pursue that angle.

[Craig]

For the movie because there's no cities, so it would be more of a rural legend. In this case.

[Bill Simmons]

Decided. Not a rural mountain legend. They decided not to pursue that angle for the. For the movie, anyway. Written by John Milius and Edward and Hulk.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And a very fun Hollywood development story where Milius is this very iconoclastic sort of man's man, surfer California kid who's coming up with, like, Lucas and. And Coppola and that group of people. And his original script is really interesting to read. There's a lot more. I would say, like, it's a little bit more fleshed out, whereas the movie is just a lot more like, you know, travelogue kind style.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Craig]

But Milius would write it, and then Redford and Pollock would get someone else to rewrite it, and then they'd be like, ah, that something's missing. Let's get Milius again. So I think Milius made, like, a lot of money because they had to keep coming back, keep rehiring, paying him his fee.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He also wrote Judge Roy Bean and he wrote Apocalypse Now.

[Craig]

He did.

[Bill Simmons]

And then has a very weird directing IMDb too.

[Gahao]

Yes.

[Craig]

Red Dawn.

[Gahao]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Conan the Barbarian.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Big Wednesday. Movies that make no. No connection with one another. So Pollock doesn't get nominated for this, but ends up winning for out of Africa and has this whole thing, this movie, commercially.

[Dr. Bill]

I didn't think it did that well in the beginning, and then it got a fan base later.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

It wound up having legs.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It ended up being the fifth highest movie of 1972. Made $3.1 million budget. Made $44.7 million. Sadly, no Roger Ebert review.

[Craig]

Oh, well, I guess.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

72. He's not throwing yet.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I don't know. What.

[Craig]

What do you think? You think it would have given it three? Three out of four. I could see him being like, this movie's awesome. Four stars.

[Bill Simmons]

I think either three and a half or four. He mentioned it. There's some review he did 20 years later where he mentioned it. Seemed like he really liked this movie.

[Craig]

Maybe he was talking about it in conjunction with dances or something.

[Gahao]

Yeah. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think, you know, Roger's a plot guy.

[Craig]

That's true. It's not a ton of plot.

[Bill Simmons]

Pauline Kael had her usual. I liked some stuff I didn't like.

[Craig]

Well, About Johnson.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

What didn't she like? Do you remember?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. We were mean to her in the last pod. I wanted to cut her some slack. I don't know if she was the audience for this.

[Craig]

No longer with us.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you know, you might be. Might be watching at some point. All right, we'll take a break and then we'll do Most rewatchable scene. This episode is brought to you by crisp, refreshing Angry Orchard Scary movie tropes can get you all fired up this season. Don't get angry about the idiots deciding to split up when there's a slasher on the loose. Just slash open Angry Orchard's new Halloween thriller pack made in partnership with the Jason universe, featuring four new killer flavors like blood orange. Don't get angry. Get Orchard. Find Angry Orchard near you this Halloween season. Angry Orchard Cider Company, LLC, angryorchard.com Please drink responsibly. Angry Orchard is a hard cider with other natural flavors. All right, let's do Most rewatchable scene dad. It's brought to you by the Home Depot. A place you haven't been to that often because you're not great with your hands. If you're starting to get into the festive spirit or think you might be soon, the Home Depot has everything you need to transform your house in a holiday home. No matter your style or budget. I'm talking about a huge choice of lights, trees and decorations. So if you're looking for movie magic this holiday season, the Home Depot has you covered. My dad is probably the latest get rid of the Christmas tree guy who's ever lived.

[Craig]

I think my wife might have make your dad have a run for.

[Bill Simmons]

Has she gone to May?

[Dr. Bill]

No, no, we only go to Easter.

[Bill Simmons]

That's four months after Christmas. How late does your wife go?

[Craig]

I. I think we've been to a Super bowl with the Christmas tree. We get. We push it.

[Bill Simmons]

That that's not Easter.

[Gahao]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

My dad has the record. Most rewatchable scene. Hatchet Jack's letter.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Slightly racist, but pretty charming.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you put Hatchet Jack in the Dion waiters? For even though he was dead, his letter being of sound mind and broke legs do leaveth my bear rifle to whatever finds it. Lord, hope it be a white man. It is a good rifle and killed the bear that killed me. Anyway, I am dead. Yours truly, Hatchet Jack. What a writer. Anyway, he must have been happy.

[Dr. Bill]

He would have been happy that Jeremiah got the rifle.

[Craig]

Yeah.50 caliber Hawking and then that that rifle becomes his. His sort of signature when he meets up with. With DEL Q.

[Bill Simmons]

Right, right. 30 caliber. Hawkins seems like okay. 50 caliber.

[Craig]

Well, the 50 cal you got to take, that's what you're taking down elk with, you know, like 30 Cal. I think you can get your rabbits.

[Gahao]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Next one I like. So I like when he makes a deal with the native Americans, Trades them a bear coat for two second round picks and some future considerations.

[Craig]

Some swaps on next year's pelts.

[Bill Simmons]

Good. He establishes the relationship early. Next one. Bald guy, Delgue.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Shaves his hair because he doesn't want them to take his hair. Dad, he's already. It's off his head already.

[Dr. Bill]

He still ended up in the ground and was lucky that Jeremiah came along.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He killed some guys and grabbed some scalps for. I'm not even positive what his reason was.

[Craig]

He's like, they stole my horses. And he's like, I'm gonna go back and get them. And Johnson is like, I'm not here to get involved. I'll just help you get into the camp and we can quietly do this. And Delgue gets violent. And it's a recurring theme where Johnson doesn't want.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I just want to set some picks and grab a couple rebounds.

[Dr. Bill]

They didn't just steal his losses. They put him in the ground to die.

[Craig]

True.

[Dr. Bill]

Those birds were ready to go after his eyeballs.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's a tough way to go.

[Craig]

I was gonna say that.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Top 10.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I'm also very.

[Bill Simmons]

They're just picking you die from like getting. From being sunburned and just having the crows pick your eyes.

[Craig]

He's also going to. He's going to lose his mind because his mustache keeps itching his nostrils.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Dr. Bill]

I thought he had a classic line when he asked Jeremiah, might you have an extra hat?

[Producer Craig]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

First family meal with the new gang.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Boy woman and Jeremiah all together. But I liked. I liked how they build the family thing. Within 20 minutes. I was a full believer. It would have been a fun, like, YouTube fake commercial for like a. An 80s sitcom with the Jeremiah family.

[Craig]

So that's my. This is the. The swan montage, I guess it is. Is of like after that first night and, you know, it's spring, the snow's melted. That whole montage of like her showing him how to hunt.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Them building that house. I love a house building montage.

[Gahao]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

I think that's my most rewatchable sequence.

[Bill Simmons]

I had that in the next one. The building, the house. Love watching them build a log cabin, dad. Two things. Something you neither. You or I could probably pull off if we had all the logs.

[Dr. Bill]

Oh, we'd have to hire somebody.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we'd have to. Could you hire somebody in the wilderness?

[Craig]

Well, Home Depot is sponsoring this segment.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Is there a Home Depot out there in Utah? I do love watching them build the house.

[Craig]

Yeah. Because the mud and the hay is the insulation to like.

[Bill Simmons]

It's so realistic when you're watching. You're like, oh, that's how it's just. It could have gone for five more minutes. I got the wolf attack.

[Craig]

Pretty good. Wolf attack.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretty good for early 70s. Like, for action. The crow graveyard.

[Craig]

Yeah. Reluctantly helping the cavalry and the annoying ass Reverend.

[Bill Simmons]

Dad, how many times have you watched this movie? And not wanting him to go through the graveyard, like, you feel like this is. It's the 197th time. But maybe this time he won't go through it. He'll know not to. It's the classic, classic movie. No, no, don't. Just don't. No, no, no, don't do it.

[Dr. Bill]

And you know, with the reverend staring at him, who doesn't care at all about Jeremiah.

[Gahao]

No.

[Dr. Bill]

You just don't want him to do it.

[Craig]

The lieutenant has that great line where he's like, you have to hunt. Like, I have to try and help these people. And the way it convinces Jeremiah to do it because he's like, these guys are all going to die if.

[Gahao]

If.

[Craig]

If I don't walk them through this.

[Bill Simmons]

Next scene I wrote down. Was Jeremiah up five crows and passes out. Then the next one right after that. Jeremiah 1v1 against Multiple Crow assassins. Just move those together.

[Craig]

I had the. I described this as the NCAA tournament of fighting Crow warriors.

[Bill Simmons]

And then there's a murder montage.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Culminating in the playing dead. But he's not really dead. Killing. Sees the spear to the chest.

[Craig]

He's the guy in the eye reflection.

[Bill Simmons]

All in this movie becomes John Wick. And it's incredible.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, that's a. That scene is a little bit iffy. He looks up into the eye of the horse and he sees the reflection of the guy coming at him.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

How dare you question Jeremiah Johnson's methods questioning the horse.

[Craig]

It's straight from liver Eater, you know?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I like when he goes to visit crazy lady's house and there's a new family there. And the guy says, some say you're dead on account of this. Some say you never will be on account of this, which I have some theories on later. And then the actual ending.

[Dr. Bill]

I want to talk about the ending.

[Bill Simmons]

Go ahead, do your thing. You can do it right now.

[Dr. Bill]

I think it's my favorite rewatchable part of the movie. And anytime I watch the movie, if I fast forward, I fast forward to the end. Because many we don't know how long. I mean, in the article about Lil Reading Johnson, it said 10 years. There's no timeline in terms of how long Jeremiah was out there killing crows.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

But it certainly was a while. And you wonder if he ever was going to make peace with Chief Paints in his shirt red. You got the name right.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Paints a shirt ride.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

I love the name. I. And in that final scene, he goes to click the rifle thinking that.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. That we're on it again.

[Dr. Bill]

Here we go again. And this time I'm on it with the Chief.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

Best guy wins. And then when he put his arm up, it was. It was great. It was just a great way to end the movie. But for me, it's the most rewatchable scene. Good, good.

[Bill Simmons]

Redford, too, with the. Where he really, like, gives the extra. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

And the classic line. And some folks think he's up there still.

[Bill Simmons]

You get some guitar in there.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I mean, he's also at that point.

[Bill Simmons]

He'S got cte probably he's been stabbed with a spear.

[Craig]

He got a knife in the back. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got multiple infections.

[Craig]

I think his. His hands all fucked up.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got frostbite fingers.

[Craig]

I mean, like, it's got to end at some point. I love how the last couple of scenes with the tournament of fighting coincides with his legend growing throughout the region and how it's basically like the Liberty Valance, like, print the myth idea. Print the legend.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And it's like, you can see, like, there's a song about it. They've started to build this monument to him. The crow have started telling stories about how this guy is, like, roaming the mountains, getting his revenge, and it turns into a folktale almost.

[Bill Simmons]

It would be funny if he had, like, the LeBron media machine behind him where it was like, Jeremiah Johnson. Unclear if he's coming back. My sources are telling me he's.

[Craig]

An Instagram that says he's going Zero Dark 23 for the next three months.

[Bill Simmons]

Jeremiah Johnson taking it fight to fight that doesn't know this is gonna end.

[Craig]

Jeremiah Johnson. I've actually been watching the crows for about 20 years.

[Bill Simmons]

I've been learning from the crows. My. My most rewatchable is when he takes down the first group of crows.

[Craig]

Oh, in the camp.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Because it's A classic. Sometimes they'll fuck this up. Like, Taken has a version of this in the kitchen when he's with the Albanians. And he goes, hey, before I go, can you read this for me? And the guy's like, good luck. And then all of a sudden, he shoots like seven guys, but it's in the kitchen. And anytime you see scenes like that, you're always like, yeah, the sixth guy probably could have gotten his gun out in time, right as he's.

[Craig]

But these guys, you shoot once back in 1840, and it takes you five minutes to reload, Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he does the double rifle to start out. I have a breakdown of this coming later, but I think that's my favorite. So you have the actual ending.

[Dr. Bill]

I have the actual ending.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you have family meal, woman.

[Craig]

And boy, house building montage.

[Dr. Bill]

You know, the family piece reminded me of outlaw Josie Wales, where suddenly he has a family that's accompanying him on his journey. Remember, the Indian joins him, the woman joins in. Kind of a similar take.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, there's lessons from these movies, and one of many is don't think it's ever going to work out with the guy, the loner who's in the middle of nowhere, who finds the instant family. Yeah, I'm just going to assume everyone's going to die. Don't go through the graveyard. Just ever, I think is another one. Like, just ever, ever. Just take the extra 20 miles to go all the way around. You got horses, you're fine.

[Craig]

I bet in retrospect, you wish you'd listen to ways. You know, it's just like, you know, it's telling me to go take a detour to the Intuit Dome.

[Bill Simmons]

I just gotta do it anyway. Today's most rewatchable scene, brought to you by the Home Depot. The Home Depot can help you set the scene for the holidays, no matter your budget or style. Maybe you get from that, from the Home Depot one of the trees that you just get to put away after you're done with it.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, we need a taller tree.

[Gahao]

Okay.

[Dr. Bill]

Because we have a taller ceiling.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Choose from a wide range of colors and designs to bring your vision to life. And with steady lit technology, the lights keep shining even if one bulb doesn't bring the magic home. With lights starting at $2.98. All right, next category. What is the most 1972 thing about this movie? It's. This is a tough category this time because it's set in the 1840s.

[Craig]

I. I had disillusionment with war.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Do you have one for this dad, or should I do mine?

[Dr. Bill]

I. Yeah, for me, you know, I grew up watching movies like Ben Hur, when you went into the big theater and they had the intermission and beginning, but they don't do that anymore. So for me, it was the. What they called the overture in the beginning.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

And the music, there was no movement. There's just a pretty scene. The first time I saw it, I'm thinking, what's going on here? You know, there's no action, there's music, there's a scene. And then all of a sudden in the middle of the movie, when you get the intermission, which they call the entreact, which you don't see anymore.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

So for me, that was the most mid-70s kind of scene or kind of a piece of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

CCR. This is why we're related, those two things. A 152nd overture.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

To start the movie, which honestly is just weird. Well, I kind of enjoy it. But why weren't there credits during the overture?

[Craig]

It's because it's basically you get 10 minutes of music getting ready to get to the movie. But I will say that overture really sets the mood. This guy.

[Bill Simmons]

It actually works. It's just crazy to watch.

[Craig]

I wish there were. I wish more movies did that, but I wish they would do it at the expense of like trailers or commercials before a film, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Craig]

Like, I would be into it if like one battle just had the Johnny Greenwood score for like five minutes before the movie started. Yeah, that would be really cool. But, you know, Kingdom of Heaven had this. I don't try to remember the last one. Inglorious Bastards. I think the Nine Glorious Bastards, Hateful Eight had the overture and then the intermission, but it's pretty rare intermission for.

[Bill Simmons]

A movie that's less than two hours is aggressive.

[Gahao]

Yes.

[Craig]

Although I do like the enforced, like, you're gonna want to go pee because this is about to get really real.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, what did you think when you started watching this movie? And for two and a half minutes, nothing happened. It was just a picture.

[Producer Craig]

I was like, the Sopranos ending. I was like, is my screen broken? This is some good scrolling time right now on my phone while this is going on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's. It's weird, but I don't know, it kind of fits the movie. All right, what stage the best. What's. What. What do you have?

[Craig]

I might have the nod of approval meme.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Craig]

Certainly, like number one, it's gonna live On. I like the crazy John Milius dialogue. When people do talk in this movie, I feel like it's pretty memorable. And it's got that. That really incredible, you know, dialect of. Of this sort of formal English with this frontiersy abrasiveness.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And also, you wanted to come back.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe Amazon prime for their NBA coverage. They just have everybody talking about.

[Craig]

And black. What's the other guy's name?

[Bill Simmons]

Bear Claw.

[Craig]

Bear Claw and Delgue. Next to Dirk.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Dirk. I smelled you for three days.

[Craig]

Yeah. And then there's just a couple of. Really outside of the nodding meme, there's a couple of really good Redford reactions.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Especially when Del Gews got him in the TP doing, like, the parlay, and he's like, man, this is really going on for a long time. And then he ends up with a wife.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there you go. What do you have, dad? Any what stage the best for you.

[Dr. Bill]

Yeah, I think for me. You and I have talked how we typically don't like movies that have voiceovers, but I really thought the voiceovers in this movie and the music was terrific. And both things for me usually don't like, but I really like them in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yet another thing that you can tell we're related. Mostly anti narrator. It's like, prove to me we needed a narrator for this. But this one actually, I think needed a narrator. It was also, like, the right kind of voice for a narrator.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Very calm agent.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounded like he should be narrating. I have a couple which age the best. This is the big one for me. And I think we have to discuss whether this is a new category.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Scene to scene. One of the great facial hair performances ever in a movie.

[Craig]

Unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got five o' clock shadow. He's got a little more than that. Then at one point, he's got a beard where it almost looks like it's on his cheeks, it's so high.

[Craig]

Completely wild.

[Bill Simmons]

Then he shaved. Then it's back. And they said they filmed this forever. It's filmed for six, seven months. And the way they use his facial hair, it really feels that way where it's like he shaved. His wife's dead, and wife and boy are dead. And then when he goes to get the. The crows, he's got, like, the right amount of facial hair where it's like, oh, it's been probably a week.

[Gahao]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought you don't agree with me.

[Craig]

No, I was just laughing.

[Bill Simmons]

You like what I call him? Boy.

[Craig]

I want you to start calling Ben Boy.

[Bill Simmons]

Hello, Boy, I'm gonna start doing that. But I was thinking, is that a new category, potentially most inspired facial hair or facial hair, if it were applicable.

[Craig]

It would definitely work. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The Jeremiah Johnson facial hair has actually become a character.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Achievement in facial hair.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, were you just jealous of the beards? I mean, of course.

[Producer Craig]

I can't grow a beard to save my life.

[Bill Simmons]

You're just watching like, God, what a. I almost feel like this is why Redford took the movie. It's like, oh, I can try out all my different beards. I have a short beard, big beard.

[Producer Craig]

It changes the shape of his face. I think a lot of people that meme people didn't know that was Robert Redford for a while. Cuz it's kind of a rounded face. He has such a chiseled jaw. But the beard makes it look so much rounder. People didn't know it was him.

[Dr. Bill]

There is a conspiracy theory that there was some beard extensions.

[Craig]

Where are you guys getting these? Jeremiah.

[Bill Simmons]

John's making this up. He. He made that up. There's no conspiracy theory. I like what stage the best. I like that the crows built a statue for Jeremiah and all his kills. Like a little memorial place. Like it was out of respect, but they're also still trying to kill him.

[Craig]

Right?

[Bill Simmons]

It's pretty good.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

It would be like. It would be like the.

[Producer Craig]

Basically the jersey swap in the NFL.

[Craig]

Like Bill's fans applauding Lamar at the end of a game. You know, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Or I was thinking Sixers fans.

[Craig]

Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

Like keeping a Tatum shrine. We were being nice to each other, I guess. I can't talk with Tatum. I like the. The in the 1840s where they would just call people by like the most basic. He's called Pilgrim woman. Boy. Yeah, it's.

[Craig]

There's only like nine people out there in like a 300 mile radius. You could kind of get away with that.

[Bill Simmons]

You didn't need to know names back then. The song. In the beginning, I enjoyed Bear Claw just hunting grizzlies and collecting the claws. That's his thing. He's like Sean with Blu Rays. Just like, I got some more blue claws.

[Craig]

If we just called him Sean Blu Ray Fantasy.

[Bill Simmons]

Blu Ray, that would be. That would be his native American name. Also this guy said. He said Bear Claw says to him, you're the same dumb pilgrim that I've been hearing for 20 days and smelling for three.

[Craig]

There's a lot of, like, how much are people being watched in this movie? Like it being tracked, which is really kind of Fascinating, because you have to imagine the crow must have seen Jeremiah lead the cavalry through the burial ground.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So, yeah, it's. It's getting. Getting surveilled out there.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, you know, when they. When the. When the reverend and the lieutenant come to his cabin, the first thing they say is, we're being watched.

[Gahao]

Yeah, that's right.

[Dr. Bill]

He says, yeah, you're in Crow territory. This is Crowland.

[Bill Simmons]

The other thing, you know, scents are a recurring theme in this movie. You mentioned it earlier with the pants or my dad.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The odors must have been just terrific. I can't even imagine.

[Craig]

You must just be nose blind at a certain point, right?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You must like it. It must just. You just can't smell anything because it's so bad your. That part of your brain just must die.

[Craig]

And, like, there's no refrigeration, so you're just dragging meat around. Like, I. I just think that they were living on the edge with that stuff. Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

I thought badly for Swan that she didn't have Redford take a little bath before he got into the sleeping bag.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, she probably should have demanded that, but I don't think she had a lot of leverage at that point after having been given away by her dad. Yeah. So you have that, but you also, I think, like, they. I think people smelled so bad, you could actually, like, hunt other people or.

[Craig]

Chase down other people coming through a mountain pass.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's like the last level of Bo. Redford said. He. Redford apparently did most of the action scenes for this movie, and he said half the fun of making movies is doing the action scenes. Anyone can say words. I never do the stunts where a pro could pull it off safer or better. But I do like the action where the camera's too close to tell a lie and the movie's insurance men are back at the office making out policies, like, takes a shot. But he would pay off if he did the stunts. He would still make sure they got paid.

[Craig]

That's good. Yeah, there's a couple of the fights. They look like he's taking real, like, tumbles.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

No question.

[Craig]

The one where he gets hit in the head and then he winds up in the creek and, like, you know, he basically, like, wins the fight and passes out.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

That looked like he was, like, really feeling it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. No question. The last one is one that I never noticed, which I'm ashamed to admit because this movie's been in my life, my whole life, and I don't ever remember my sage dad ever making this point.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, it depends what the point is.

[Bill Simmons]

You certainly never said this to me. Or if you did, I forgot. People think on the. On the Internets, people think this movie is set. He goes up the mountain as a journey and then comes back down. And when he comes back down, he goes. Goes through all the same things he saw when he went back up. Oh, I think that might be true.

[Craig]

He ends pretty much at the same spot that he first saw Take the Shirt Red. Right at the creek.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Craig]

Stream.

[Bill Simmons]

And then where he saw Crazy lady, he goes back there and that's where the new family lives. And he ascends up and then down and it's like. And the ascent down is faster. Yeah, but it's the same this thing. I don't know if that. You believe that one. Dad, you've seen this movie 197 times.

[Dr. Bill]

I never even thought about that aspect. But part of it is not knowing. Where does he go next?

[Bill Simmons]

Right. How long did he live?

[Craig]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he goes back and fights the war. That could have been the sequel.

[Craig]

Well, one of my low key favorite parts, when Del G says goodbye for the last time and they're like, where are you going? He's like, where are you going? He's like the Andes. Because like this area is too trapped out and is now even with the settlers arriving, like losing its. Its appeal. Like.

[Dr. Bill]

Right.

[Craig]

You know, he's like, I gotta go.

[Bill Simmons]

Use like the Andes. That's all out there.

[Craig]

Just gotta grab it.

[Dr. Bill]

Redford says he's going to Canada.

[Craig]

That's right.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

But never ends up. Actually can't go because there's too many people trying to kill him.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Last. What's aged the best for me is just this movie in the Redford catalog I think is really important.

[Gahao]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

He doesn't really have another movie like.

[Craig]

This until all was lost.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Right.

[Craig]

Basically, like that's.

[Bill Simmons]

And if you take this out, I think it's a lot of parts that feel like they're vaguely related to each other. Either he's the super handsome guy or he's the guy on the run from somebody. Or this one I just think kind of stands apart for him. That's a good one. Dad, we never asked what is Redford like in the all time rankings for you? Like, is he Mount Rushmore for you? Where is he?

[Dr. Bill]

Yeah, he's Mount Rushmore for me. Think of all the. You listed earlier, all the movies he's been in.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

You know, a lot of them with the same director. But we've watched all those movies. And then when they come. Come on again on tv. I watch him again.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, then the Natural is one of your top five or six.

[Dr. Bill]

Oh, sure. It has to be.

[Craig]

Have you done the Natural? I know I wasn't on.

[Bill Simmons]

Did it with Mallory. I think they're in Covid.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, listen, we could always bring it back.

[Craig]

Could you, doctor, like, in the early 70s, is there any way to describe how famous this guy was? Like, as he's getting into this run.

[Bill Simmons]

Where he's the way we were. Condor, Jeremiah Johnson's the Stand, Presidents, like.

[Craig]

And he's just the. I mean, like, how does it compare to somebody like Cruz now or DiCaprio now? And, like, the way we talk about. I mean, like, what was it like?

[Dr. Bill]

I think. I think he had a better body of work than the people that you just mentioned.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

I think he was very likable. You know, there were no scandals about him that I recall. And, you know, he made a significant contribution to the entire acting community when he started Sundance.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

I think his movement towards Sundance. I think he was very careful with the movies he picked, and it's hard to remember a movie that was not well done in which he received criticism. So I think he might have. For me, he was probably the biggest star from 72 to. Well, continuing on for quite a while. Clint moved in there for me as well. His movies were terrific to watch and rewatch. For me, it's always, do you want to rewatch the movie? And I wanted to rewatch his movies.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It was funny because it was him and Eastwood. But then Newman was in there. Burt Reynolds kind of passed through for a few years, and then that was really it for the mega and Warren Beatty. But he would only make a movie every couple years.

[Craig]

You mentioned something. Dr. Bill. It's like his floor is pretty high.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

There's not a lot of clunkers.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You trust that if he was in something. And like. All right, I'll give that.

[Craig]

And even now, like, because I think a lot of people have been going back to his film since his passing. It's like. Well, even the ones that we don't really talk about are still pretty good, you know?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I was waiting for one of the streamers to just have some crazy Redford deal where it was like, you know.

[Craig]

Like, they're too scattered.

[Bill Simmons]

75. Yeah.

[Craig]

All over the place.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Come on.

[Dr. Bill]

Goes back to something one of you said earlier. It was his favorite movie.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

That he made. That says an awful lot to me because the diversity of the movies he made over his Career. This was unique in my perspective in terms of the type of movie he made, and it was his favorite.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, we're doing some quickie categories. The Big Kahuna Burger award for best use of food drink.

[Craig]

Swan's Hot Pockets that she makes the first night. And then he tosses them.

[Producer Craig]

Why were they so bad?

[Craig]

I think it was probably a different seasoning techniques or lack of, like, I don't know if they had salt they.

[Producer Craig]

Would use, but I just was shocked at how terrible he thought it tasted. I mean, it was probably so bland.

[Bill Simmons]

All he ate was, like, bear jerky.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He probably couldn't even. His body couldn't even handle it.

[Craig]

But I love how he, like, goes over to the horse and he's like. And he's like, oh, Jesus.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, like, great shot. Gordo Award, most cinematic shot. What do you got?

[Craig]

I have the shot of Delgue's head sticking out of the sand as Caleb and Jeremiah come over the ridge there. And it also is, like, one of the turning points of the movie. Delgue really changes the trajectory of Jeremiah's life in a lot of ways. And I like that they've come out of, like, this kind of like, they go. You wind up in, like, the sandy desert for a few minutes out there. Like, it's so many different climates and landscapes.

[Bill Simmons]

Kid Cudi, Pursuit of happiness where best needle drops. Got to be the ending.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And some folks say chess. Rockwell Brocklander's award for best character name.

[Craig]

Paints a shirt red.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Can I make the case for Jeremiah Johnson? What a great name.

[Craig]

Yeah, like.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, just pick a sport where that guy would have be the coolest guy. Jeremiah Johnson, like the new wide receiver.

[Craig]

Is there A San Francisco 49ers Pro Football Reference really quick and see if there's a Jeremiah Johnson that's come through.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Jeremiah needs. Just needs to come back as a name.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We have a million jalens.

[Craig]

Well, he just run on the summer I turned pretty. Jeremiah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, really? So he's coming back.

[Dr. Bill]

It fit the music.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

Jeremiah John.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, good syllables.

[Producer Craig]

There was a running back who went to Oregon who played the NFL for a little bit. Jeremiah Johnson.

[Bill Simmons]

I need that name back. I also really like. Paints his shirt red is strong.

[Dr. Bill]

Paint his shirt red is a good one.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We are going to take another break and then CR's flex category. This episode is brought to you by Hulu. Glen Powell Is Chad Powers now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney + eight years after flushing his college football career down the toilet, Hotshot Quarterback Russ Holliday makes a comeback disguised as Chad Powers. I really enjoyed the show, I gotta be honest. An oddball athletic talent who walks onto the struggling South Georgia Catfish determined to once again take college football by storm. You can watch the hilarious new Hulu original series, Chad Powers, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. So dad, CR gets a flex category every episode where he can do whatever he wants. What is it?

[Craig]

This episode, we usually save this for throw thrillers and horror movies, but I'm going with when would I have died?

[Bill Simmons]

I snuck that in for later. I'm glad you're doing this. How long were you gonna last?

[Craig]

When the snow fell on my fire in the first 10 minutes of the movie, I died. Don't know how to come back from that. Honestly, I freeze to death. If not that, definitely when I fell in the creek fishing. Yeah, I would have just frozen. I don't have a change of clothes. I don't have a towel. There's no. I don't have a foil blanket to wrap around me. And then certainly when I got buried up to my head in the sand by Blackfeet Warriors. Warriors. That's when I would have died.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I would have died in the Mexican War and the movie never would have happened. That's a good one, though.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

20 minutes max. Yeah, I wouldn't even be able to see. I would just put Walking in the Glass the Butch's Girlfriend award for weak link of the film. We mentioned this. Jeremiah's decision to go through the crowbarrow ground. It's never sat right with me from. In the five decades that I've been watching this movie. I just don't think he would do it. Yeah, like, he just kind of gets bullied into it by the Reverend and the. And the. Oh, we got to go through. It's another 20 miles. I just. I know he's trying to help people out, but I don't know, dad. I'm just. I just think he would know that this is a bad thing to do. We can't do this.

[Dr. Bill]

I think you would know. He lived in Crowland in friendship for so many years. I think he would know. Don't do this. Don't do this.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's like. It's like Steve Ballmer, like, you have to know, don't keep giving aspirations soldier in.

[Craig]

Him still there. That like, sort of responds to the lieutenant, you know, or maybe.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. But he was happy, though. I was thinking, like, it was almost a suicide Mission. But no, he. He was just playing lacrosse with woman and boy.

[Craig]

Such a good line. When he's like, you can't. We can't do this. Like you. This is sacred ground to them. And the reverend's like, you can't believe that, can you? And he's like, it doesn't matter what I believe. They believe it.

[Gahao]

Yeah. You know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's true.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I just don't buy in that. I think that's the weak link. What stage is the worst? Oh, what do you have?

[Dr. Bill]

I have another weak link. If. When I watch the movie again. He got an ax in the back, he got a spear in the stomach.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

He got. Almost had his left eye taken out.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

And that doesn't count the 50 fights that we never saw.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

He had no medical attention.

[Craig]

No.

[Dr. Bill]

How did he not die?

[Craig]

Big time. Sepsis. Risk.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's Jeremiah Johnson. He was just a legend. Guy couldn't. Guy couldn't be brought down.

[Craig]

My weakest link is, you know, we get five minutes of an overture and five minutes of credits. Or a couple minutes. Credits. I could have done like five minutes in the town before he takes off. Maybe takes one night in the bed of a.

[Gahao]

Of a.

[Craig]

Of a lady of the evening. Oh, maybe goes to a bar, throws a couple back here.

[Bill Simmons]

Some stories, a whorehouse scene to start out. Jeremiah Johnson.

[Craig]

I just wanted like in the script, he spends a little bit more time in the town. And so I was just like, there's some idea there.

[Dr. Bill]

I think that's a really good point. Point. Because remember when Del Q joins up with him the second time and he, the Indian comes after him in the nighttime, out of the blue.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Throws the spear.

[Dr. Bill]

He says, is this how it is? One at a time? And then he says to Jeremiah, maybe you should go to the town. And Jeremiah says, I've been in the town.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, we never saw that.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because you dropped the boat.

[Craig]

And he's like, which way is the mountain?

[Bill Simmons]

Poker debts.

[Craig]

Poker debts.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He got. Jeremiah got cleaned out. Game of five card. Five card stud. What stage the worst? Giving your daughter away as a repayment for a gift.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably doesn't Translate to the 2020s. Feel like there would be some tick tock memes about that.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, what wasn't giving away. It was a trade.

[Craig]

It was a trade. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He traded his daughter. I mean, like if I traded Zoe.

[Dr. Bill]

Because some really good scalps.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, true.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Fair. They didn't cast a Native American for the role of Swan.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

They cast somebody named Del Bolton. This was her only film. She only had one other screen Credit. A 2002 episode of TV's Monk.

[Craig]

Really?

[Bill Simmons]

30 years later, just as on Monk.

[Craig]

Fascinating.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know how to explain that. And then what stage the worst? The Bear Claw, Jeremiah scenes. I'll just say I wouldn't have subscribed to their podcast.

[Craig]

That's a respectful pass from us.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

New episode podcast network.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, you know Bear Claw and Jeremiah, the guys from Jeremiah Johnson? They're pitching a pod. Do you think they want to talk to people who are successful?

[Craig]

What about Delgu and Bear Claw Dog.

[Bill Simmons]

You now I'm interested in.

[Gahao]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

That's kind of a Kevin Wilds, Nick Wright vibe to it.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's on a player podcast.

[Gahao]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like him, Wemby, and Jeremy Sohan. Just get them going. The three of them. The Ruffalo, Hannah Rubin.

[Craig]

I had a. What stage the worst?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, let's hear it.

[Craig]

It's a little bit of a cheat. I know you guys love the music. I love the music in this, but the idea of having a song in the beginning of the movie that kind of lays out the plot of the movie. And I was thinking about why they stopped doing this and what would have happened if it was just like, John Wick was a dog, dad. But then the Russian mob killed his dog, so he dug in the ground, got his guns out, and turned into the Baba Yaga. They're going to regret that. Just like. And then you're like, I guess I don't have to watch the movie now.

[Bill Simmons]

Liam Neeson would have been taken. Would have been a good one, too.

[Craig]

Elisha Cuthbert's going to the concert, even though a dad doesn't want to.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's a really good.

[Craig]

She doesn't need to see you, too.

[Producer Craig]

Albanians looking for Bruce Willis was dead the whole time.

[Craig]

You're gonna want to spend. Pay special attention to Kevin Spacey in this movie about criminals.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't trust his limp dad. When did that stop?

[Dr. Bill]

What's that?

[Bill Simmons]

When they. When they did a song at the beginning of the movie.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That explained everything that you're about to see. Probably a good trend to stop.

[Dr. Bill]

I can't think of another movie after that did that.

[Bill Simmons]

Ruffalo. Hannah Rubenick Partridge overacting awards. This is another category we had, dad. Crazy morning lady who just lost her family. She dials it up.

[Craig]

Yeah, but, I mean, what's the appropriate amount of grief to be exhibiting in that situation?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, she. She exhibited it.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you. I Think probably is the winner, though, for. For dialing it up. Yeah, he's really going for it.

[Craig]

I spent some time with Ruffalo. I did not do. They knew to his face, though.

[Bill Simmons]

You did?

[Craig]

I did not. I did not.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, are you one of the motherfuckers for that rewatchable spot. Next category. The CR Thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest take award. Right.

[Craig]

This was really hard for me. I just. But so it's not even that hot. I just think I would have taken two or three more Redford survival movies, that this was an untapped micro genre of his. Between this and all is Lost, he was obviously like a big nature guy, and I would have been really good athlete. Yeah. Like, he did. He does water in all is Lost. He does the mountains. Like, I would have loved to have had some more outdoors nature stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

He needed like, a Mel Gibson ransom type of movie where he's somebody. Somebody he loves got taken or stolen or. And he has to go back and. Yeah, something like, I. I thought he was really good at being athletic. He does some running in this movie.

[Craig]

Yeah, he does downhill race.

[Bill Simmons]

We talked about his great running in general. Yeah, he runs in Three Days of the Condor.

[Craig]

I just did some flying and Waldo pepper. But, like, I would just be into some more like, solo adventurer, you know, like.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Like, give me a mountain climber movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you know.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, this movie was the right. What was he, mid-30s?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

Great shape. Mid-30s. The right age to do this kind of outdoor movie. I can't think of a. Was there a movie where he played a bad guy?

[Bill Simmons]

No, he never ever was a bad guy. I don't think.

[Craig]

I think he's. Is he bad in the Avengers movies? I can't. Or the Captain America movies? I can't remember. I don't think he's good.

[Gahao]

Okay.

[Producer Craig]

Asking the wrong guy.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Wrong. Wrong crowd. You didn't have. I didn't tell you to do a hottest take, right?

[Dr. Bill]

Hottest take. No.

[Gahao]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, Well, I have one. So I did. I did a whole deep dive on when he starts fighting the crows, how many people he killed. And we see 13 kills. And I'll do my take in a second. He. The. When he. When he fights the five crows, initially kills two with a shotgun, one with a rifle, swing to the head, pulls the guy off the horse, stabs him in the heart, then gets stabbed in the back, shoots the guy who knifes him in the back, cuts the throat of the last guy. So that's actually six. And then Lets the singing death guy who's singing his death chant turns out great way to get out of being murdered.

[Craig]

Tell your homies all about me.

[Bill Simmons]

You just got to remember like a 30 second death chant. And people like, oh shit, I didn't know you were going to do that. I'm going to let you go now. So he sits there. The next two kills. The guy shows up when he's fishing, which is great. When that guy gets off his horse like it's like a ufc. He needed entrance music being like, welcome to the jungle. He just comes in. And then the guy hiding in the.

[Craig]

Snow, which is, God, I love this guy.

[Bill Simmons]

How committed was the guy hiding in the snow?

[Craig]

What if Jeremiah Johnson doesn't come by?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, what if he fell asleep? Guys in the snow, just dressed. He has no clothes on. He's just like, ah, this is a good move. So that's eight. And then has the five kill montage that includes throws a guy off a mountain, pummels a guy, hockey fight style, shoots a guy fight someone, but we don't see the death. And then kills a guy in the water. So it's 13. And then the final kill when he plays dead and sees the guy from through the horse's eyes, shoots the guy gets speared. That's 14. My hottest take.

[Dr. Bill]

I couldn't we see.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, 14.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, this leads to my hottest take.

[Craig]

Five, five, six more.

[Bill Simmons]

How about 13 more? It almost could have gone a 28 to 30. I could have kept watching this. I not enough kills. John Wick killed like a hundred people. Were you like, ah, John Wick killed too many people in this movie.

[Craig]

I think it's also just that they keep finding creative ways to do it in the mountain landscape.

[Bill Simmons]

Like the guy just ran out of ways.

[Craig]

Maybe.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where was the guy? Jumping out of a tre tree on top of them. They did. They missed that.

[Craig]

They didn't do it.

[Bill Simmons]

They missed a guy coming out of the water.

[Craig]

You second guessing quarterbacks going through their progressions? How can you not see your check down?

[Bill Simmons]

Right, there's somebody under the bed. I thought would have been a good one. Oh yeah. Murders on the table.

[Craig]

Yeah, I like it.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, casting what ifs, dad? The role of Jeremiah was originally intended for Lee Marvin. And then. Yeah, that's a no. And then Clint Eastwood directed by Sam Peckinpah. And that was in motion. And then Sam Peckinpah, they didn't get along. And Eastwood left and he did Dirty Harry instead.

[Craig]

Anybody else you'd rather see in this role or you could imagine in this.

[Bill Simmons]

Role, I think McQueen would have been interesting. Yeah, right. McQueen could have been. Okay. Not as good as Redford.

[Dr. Bill]

McQueen could have been very good in the room. He could have done all his physical action stunts and everything.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if Burt Reynolds could have pulled it off.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't see him in the wilderness. The other thing with pulling this off is you really have to have the.

[Craig]

Beard game, who's who to be another beard actor.

[Dr. Bill]

But, you know, there's another aspect of pulling it off. Redford loved nature.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

His whole life outside of acting was about nature. Being at. Being at peace with nature, leading and. And the Utah scenery. I mean, that's where he ended up anyway, so I'm not sure anybody else could have pulled it off.

[Bill Simmons]

Best that guy award. So Unger from Longest Yard is Charles Tyner.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The first, the bad guy in the.

[Bill Simmons]

Town and then Paul Benedict from the Jeffersons. Yeah, those are the two.

[Craig]

A passing moment. The family that moves into the crazy lady.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Her house. The daughter is country music star Tanya Tucker, Right?

[Gahao]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

One of the young blonde girls.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. DM Waiters award. Is it bear claw or is it W? I had to explain what Dion Waiters was to my dad.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I don't think he's a big rewatchable.

[Craig]

But he's a big Dion Waiters watcher, isn't he?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He enjoyed DM Eastern Conference basketball. Now we have Peyton Pritchards is now the new DM Waiters.

[Craig]

No, the committee's still out on that.

[Gahao]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Recasting couch, Director City. I made a list of Jeremiah Johnson by the decade.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

You ready for this, dad?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

In 1982, I think it's Harrison Ford.

[Gahao]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

In 1992, I think it's Daniel Day Lewis.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

2002 was easier than I expected because it's definitely Russell Crowe.

[Craig]

I was waiting for you to say that.

[Bill Simmons]

Russell Crowe, 100% Jeremiah Johnson. I think he would have been awesome.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Stuff a legend.

[Craig]

Caruso could have played. Do you?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, is there still time to make that 2012? Brad Pitt or Affleck?

[Gahao]

Pitt.

[Dr. Bill]

Brad Pitt for me.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So 20 in that rule 2022 I left open.

[Dr. Bill]

How about Damon in that role, though?

[Bill Simmons]

I thought about Damon, but I think he loses out to Russell Crowe in 02, and I think he loses out to Pitt in 2012.

[Craig]

It's more Western to me, too.

[Bill Simmons]

And Pitt would have loved the facial hair.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's from a grow beard. He would have been like, hey, the the peace pipe scene with the crows. Like, maybe we could use real marijuana for that and make that scene longer. 2022, though, I couldn't come up with, who is Jeremiah Johnson for this decade. We're gonna need Craig's help. Craig, what do you got? It's because it's not like Chalamet.

[Producer Craig]

No.

[Craig]

You know who would do it? Pratt. Because he's, like, kind of like, gotten.

[Bill Simmons]

Into this same stuck kind of star, though.

[Producer Craig]

Like Hemsworth. But again, it's too tainted by the Marvel thing.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's almost like all the people who are in Marvel.

[Craig]

Austin Butler could do it. I don't know if he could grow the beard.

[Bill Simmons]

How. How tall is he?

[Producer Craig]

Six feet. He's decently sized.

[Bill Simmons]

Austin Butler. Is he old enough, though, though?

[Craig]

I don't think he is, like, mid-20s now.

[Producer Craig]

No, no. Austin Butler's like 35, I think.

[Craig]

Austin Butler's 35.

[Producer Craig]

I think so.

[Craig]

Damn.

[Bill Simmons]

Could we zag and do the Michael B. Jordan? Just Jeremiah's black and it's never explained.

[Craig]

That would be good. Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Because if we can do that, I'm going backwards in Denzel in 1992, the black Jeremiah Johnson. History never talked about Ryan Gosling. Ryan Gosling. What do you think of that one?

[Craig]

Dad become a little too, like, Santa Barbara now?

[Producer Craig]

Well, if they remove the fillers from his face.

[Craig]

That's what I was gonna say.

[Producer Craig]

They cover the facial hair over the fillers.

[Gahao]

Maybe.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think we have a 2020.

[Producer Craig]

I think tossing could have done it, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe pre Barbie.

[Producer Craig]

Glenn.

[Dr. Bill]

I can't think of anybody.

[Bill Simmons]

Glenn Powell's too happy. Really? I love Glenn Powell, but he's too happy. I was even thinking, like, could tell her do it. Jeremiah Johnson needs seem damaged. Glenn Powell's too happy.

[Producer Craig]

I think all those men that you just named, they seem like real guys. And now everyone's a little bit too Hollywood.

[Craig]

Would you allow a British person to be Jeremiah Johnson if you wanted to.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, stab me in the soul.

[Craig]

Right. Like Andrew Garfield as Jeremiah Johnson.

[Bill Simmons]

Just kill me. I'd be so mad if they remade Jeremiah Johnson with Andrew Garfield. I don't know what I would do, but it wouldn't be great. Craig, you have a flex category. What do you got?

[Producer Craig]

I want to go back to great shot, Gordo. You guys didn't. You didn't really touch on the scene. The shot of the bear chasing Jeremiah Johnson into the cabin is one of the more impressive shots. Is a real bear chasing a real guy.

[Gahao]

Yeah, yeah.

[Producer Craig]

And they.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like chasing Redford and it's like.

[Craig]

Same thing with the wolf attack. Seems like it's like a stunt guy with a wolf.

[Producer Craig]

Yep.

[Gahao]

Yeah, yeah.

[Producer Craig]

Sometimes when you don't have the capability of, you know, special effects, it's even more impressive. And it actually looks better. And I was. I was in shock of that, of that long dolly shot. Just watching the bear go into the cabin, I thought that was incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Now they would just do it on Sora too. The bear. The bear would be supernatural.

[Craig]

I'm gonna go home and say, like, put a British guy in Jeremiah Johnson and send it to Bill Simmons.

[Bill Simmons]

I'd be.

[Dr. Bill]

So the bear was actually chasing bear claw.

[Gahao]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Couple half ass Internet research things. Filmed in nearly 100 locations across Utah. Apparently, Sidney Pollock mortgaged his home.

[Craig]

We don't make guys do this anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

He's. He was just really committed to the, to the filming, and they were running out of money and he said, fuck it.

[Craig]

Before we stop working with each other, I'm gonna do this to you. I'm gonna be like, I want to start the Chris Ryan show, but I'll put up my house as collateral.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna mortgage my home.

[Craig]

And you're like, it's okay, you don't have to do that. It's like, no, no, no.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to do it just for the story. They said it was so cold that they couldn't really do second takes. And. And Redford said the crew was pretty miserable. Yeah, but he was very appreciative. But they were basically like, let's shoot that scene with bear clogging. Like it wasn't happening.

[Craig]

I saw there's. When you watch this movie, you're like, I don't know how they got the crew out there. I don't know how they start. Like, they must have hauled the jaws.

[Bill Simmons]

Thing where it's like they just kind of didn't know any better. So Dell, apparently the tribes back then, they considered people crazy.

[Craig]

Touched.

[Gahao]

Right?

[Bill Simmons]

To be untouchable. They were like sacred. So Dell would talk to himself, apparently, because then they would be like, oh, that guy's crazy. We're leaving him alone.

[Craig]

And that's when they. When he comes across the woman who's lost her family, he's like, they're not gonna bother you anymore because you're touched.

[Bill Simmons]

Jeremiah Johnson premiered at Cannes, the film festival, and it was the first western film to ever be accepted in the festival. And then, oh, Redford said, seven cases of frostbite, four cases strep throat, two cases of pneumonia, and only three cases Of Napoleon Brandy. He said. He said he lived there year round and knew how tough a Utah winter could be. But it ended up being great for the film.

[Craig]

I think they tried to give them a bigger budget, but encouraged them to shoot, I guess, in California or somewhere else. And they're like, we'll take less money.

[Bill Simmons]

As long as you just enough juice to make them film in Utah. All right. Apex.

[Dr. Bill]

They filmed a little bit in Arizona.

[Gahao]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mountain. Redford. No, we already decided it was the Sting did that last episode.

[Gahao]

Right.

[Craig]

What about mountains in movies? Apex Mountain for mountains.

[Bill Simmons]

It's pretty good. I mean, Brokeback Mountain had mountain in the title.

[Craig]

True.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I think. I think you might be right because of the.

[Craig]

A lot of Brokeback Mountain takes place off the mountain, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, true. You know, thinking about getting back to Brokeback Mountain. Brokeback Mountain.

[Craig]

It's always in their minds, the overture.

[Bill Simmons]

Of just the wide shot of the mountain for two and a half minutes.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you say Apex Mountain for mountains, dad?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He doesn't even know what Apex Mountain is. I would go with just not this.

[Craig]

Or the mountain in Alive. Oh, equally different.

[Bill Simmons]

Cliffhanger.

[Craig]

Oh, Cliffhanger's good. Stallone.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Trying to think what other mountains.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, the Eiger sanction that movie.

[Craig]

Iger sanction the Everest.

[Bill Simmons]

How about the Edge with Baldwin and Hopkins?

[Craig]

True.

[Bill Simmons]

Sidney Pollock. The answer is no.

[Craig]

What is the answer?

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's probably Tootsie.

[Gahao]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Because then that leads out of Africa.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Tootsie. Was he crushed, that one. Not.

[Craig]

Not him. Wearing suspenders with no shirt.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's our Apex Mountain for him. You know, Sydney Pollock, the director, who's, I think, a first ballot hall of famer as a director.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Is Also an Eyes Wide Shut dad playing a really weird guy in the movie.

[Dr. Bill]

I didn't know he was. It's a movie I avoided.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Lawyer.

[Gahao]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Good idea. It's sexually deviant.

[Gahao]

Lord.

[Bill Simmons]

A good way to put it. Apex Mountain for Crow Barrow Grounds. I'm gonna say 100. 100. So, will gear, who's in this movie as. As Delgue.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Or Bear Claw. One of. I think he says Bear Claw. That same year, he began his role as Grandpa in the Waltons. Oh, Apex Mountain. Lock it down.

[Craig]

Way to go, Will.

[Bill Simmons]

What a year. The Waltons was huge. You know what the Waltons was, Craig?

[Gahao]

No. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It was the biggest drama of the seventies. It was set. When was the Walton set, dad? Do you remember? It's like, set.

[Dr. Bill]

I didn't watch it.

[Bill Simmons]

Big show with your brothers and Sisters, though.

[Dr. Bill]

Yeah, yeah, they liked it.

[Bill Simmons]

That Little House in the Prairie. Yeah, I don't have any of that.

[Dr. Bill]

Did we ever see Del Q again in another movie?

[Craig]

He did not have much of a credit.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, this is. Yeah, that was. You know, this did not lead to him getting his own show.

[Craig]

Girash. And he was in a hundred things, but a lot of tv.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's probably a lot of things.

[Craig]

Where he's in Dave.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh.

[Craig]

So shout out to that. He's in Miami Vice, season five, episode 16, victim of circumstances.

[Dr. Bill]

Oh, Bill, you must remember that.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't remember that one. I'm bad on season five. Yeah.

[Craig]

And that's pretty much it.

[Bill Simmons]

Next category. Dad. Cruise or Hanks? If you could put Cruise or Hanks in this movie, which one would you pick?

[Dr. Bill]

Hanks.

[Craig]

Hanks, Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I went with Cruise because I think it. It becomes a comedy.

[Producer Craig]

I don't want a comedy.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I want to see the Cruise version of this more. Hanks is the obvious choice, but Cruise as Jeremiah Johnson is hilarious.

[Craig]

It is pretty funny.

[Dr. Bill]

But immediately, the Reacher series and Cruise playing Reacher. If you've read the books, I knew this was good. So I can't see Cruise in any of these roles.

[Bill Simmons]

This is the most upset he's ever been when they cast Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher. Do you like Amazon Violation for my dad?

[Craig]

Do you like the Amazon series?

[Bill Simmons]

Of course he does. What are you talking about? Yeah, I do.

[Dr. Bill]

Very much.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you know what show? There's a show that has checked the most boxes ever for a Dr. Bill show that's coming out in October.

[Craig]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

Boston Blue with Donna. Yeah, this is it. This is. We finally reached Blue Bloods without Selleck, but in Boston.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And my dad loved Donnie Wahlberg in the show and loves Donnie Wahlberg in general.

[Craig]

Is Blue Blood set in New York or Boston? Boston.

[Bill Simmons]

It's Blue Bloods is New York.

[Craig]

Okay. This is Blue Bloods in Boston.

[Bill Simmons]

How did they explain the Mark Wahlberg being in Blue Bloods even though he's from Boston part?

[Dr. Bill]

You mean in the original Blue Bloods? Yeah, well, they never had to explain it.

[Bill Simmons]

He just was a Boston cop in New York for no reason.

[Dr. Bill]

Oh, you mean. No, he was never a Boston cop. In. In the original Blue Bloods, he was a New York City cop.

[Bill Simmons]

So now he's going to Boston. In Boston Blue, but he's still playing the same character from Blue Bloods, but now he's going to have an exit.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, they haven't had the first episode yet, so I can't Answer the question.

[Craig]

I thought you were going to say with shows that check his boxes. I thought you were going to talk about Landman coming back in November.

[Bill Simmons]

You like Landman? Yeah, he liked Landman. No, Boston Blue is the peak for you.

[Dr. Bill]

I'll let you know that. I haven't seen it yet. It's not out yet.

[Craig]

Did you see in Landman, Sam Elliott is playing Billy Bob Thornton's dad?

[Bill Simmons]

Of course I saw it. Unbelievable.

[Craig]

He's like eight years older than Billy.

[Bill Simmons]

The same age. Scorsese or Spielberg for this movie?

[Craig]

I had Spielberg, but silence era. Scorsese could do the out. You know, he could do the isolation thing. But I have Spielberg.

[Bill Simmons]

I had Spielberg as well, dad. You don't have to weigh in on that. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played in this movie?

[Craig]

Dog.

[Gahao]

You?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. I'm Bear claw. I think he could have gotten gun. Bearclaw, too.

[Dr. Bill]

I'm old enough.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, all right. Picking knits. This is where we pick nits in the movie. We've already done a couple. When his horse died, why didn't he. Is the rule you can't make horse meat if that was your horse. Like, these people are dying to eat anything, right? Can you not then eat your horse because it was your horse? Is there some sort of rule Snow.

[Craig]

That when he wakes up and the horse is dead next to the.

[Bill Simmons]

Next to him in the camp, that's a. That's like five meals.

[Craig]

I assume he still had food from the town at that point. Was he running out of food by then?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know, but I would definitely eat. I love Murph, but if. If I had to eat.

[Craig]

Wait, do you eat your dog?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but if I'm in the wilderness, if I don't have food, why is.

[Craig]

Murph in the wilderness?

[Bill Simmons]

Just.

[Craig]

I'm just saying this domesticated animal that's lived all of its life in the posh part of la, and it's like, now I'm in Utah.

[Dr. Bill]

Murph is probably in the swimming pool right now.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have for naked picky knits?

[Craig]

I just think that there ultimately was, like, a better way of communicating to those guys just how much he is not gonna ride for the burial ground. Like, like you said, the. Not his. Take it just like.

[Bill Simmons]

Like you raise your gun.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's almost like they had to draw their guns on him and say.

[Craig]

But he was like. He was like, you guys can go, I'm. I'm just not doing this. And then he just was like, actually, I Changed my mind. I'm going with you. So there's not a lot of nitpicking here other than after seeing what happened to that woman in the beginning of the movie. I just don't think you leave your kid and your wife.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have, dad? Do you have a big nitpick?

[Dr. Bill]

Well, I had an epic, you know, when he was leading the group into the burial ground, and all of a sudden he was stationary, looking like he knew something had happened because he saw the Esau Swan's blue trinket.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

On the ground.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

Well, the timing kind of seemed weird because if I'm the crow chief, I get upset when he enters the burial ground, not, not necessarily when he's leading the group toward the wagon train. So the timing of how did they get that trinket into the burial ground?

[Bill Simmons]

Right. You gotta go. He's still going toward the rescue site. They're going. They immediately kill woman and boy, then they have to bring her trinket all the way back. Yeah, yeah, that is a good point, dad.

[Dr. Bill]

It just didn't click. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's almost seem like he's seen this movie.

[Craig]

And it also seems like he goes to the wagon train and immediately turns around and starts heading back. He said, here it is. You guys got it? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a good one.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

My other nitpick. I know the crows, like we established they're 1v1 fighters. Right. I just feel like if you're coming again and again, somebody's going to figure out how to be Jeremiah. There's got to be some move.

[Craig]

What would have been your move? There needs to be some film study. We got to talk about some of his tendencies.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, also, what, what were the limitations on the crows? Like could they just be just bow and arrow him from far away?

[Craig]

I think it was about taking.

[Bill Simmons]

It has to be man B, man.

[Gahao]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Not one of them you get come at a tomahawk, jump out of a tree. Not one time. They caught him off guard. He's taking a dump. Off guard.

[Dr. Bill]

The guy jumped out of the snow.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

But me off guard.

[Bill Simmons]

What was your take, Craig? Watching this about the fighting, like, just to the crow. The crows, like they have Pete Carroll and the Vegas Raiders as their head coach.

[Producer Craig]

Like, you know, they had a code and they, and they lived by it. And you have to respect that. I, I, my picking it is that I'm not sure I buy that Jeremiah Johnson would have followed the cavalry to go save those people. Like the whole pitch was he was like, these are Christian People out there. But I feel like Jeremiah Johnson was a man who had given up on religion. He didn't like that Swan was religious.

[Craig]

I don't think it's the. I don't think it's the God part. I think it's the. The soldier's duty part. And maybe to Bill's point earlier about, did he desert? Is there something inside of him that's like. I didn't. I didn't fulfill a mission I was given, and I let Baby let some people down. Like, I felt like there was something that he felt like he had to do.

[Bill Simmons]

Any other nitpicks?

[Craig]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Sequel. Prequel. Prestige tv. All black caster. Untouchable. This is absolutely an untouchable prestige. Would you watch a Amazon show? Dad of Jeremiah Johnson, One season.

[Dr. Bill]

Oh, this is a one and done.

[Craig]

What about Jeremiah Johnson?

[Bill Simmons]

Much Reacher, but not sure.

[Craig]

Back to town opens up a hardware store.

[Bill Simmons]

This summer, I turned pretty with Jeremiah Johnson.

[Producer Craig]

He founds Home Depot.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that could work. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Mad Dog Russo, Doris Burke, Buffalo Bill, Sam Jackson, Nell Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Long Legs, or Wilford Brimley in the Firm. What do you have? Cr.

[Craig]

Well, number one, it's obviously, this is yours. It's better with Nell because.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, in the woods, loses her family.

[Craig]

Basically goes Nell.

[Bill Simmons]

So just now just doing that.

[Craig]

I like the idea of Collins worth being like, oh, Mike, this. This paints his shirt red guy. He gets his guys ready to play. I mean, they keep coming in waves. You're gonna have to talk these guys with a tomahawk if you don't want them to come after Jeremiah.

[Producer Craig]

They're running stunts, Mike.

[Craig]

Look, look, It's. It's not every blitz is gonna work, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my. Jeremiah is just. I just can't believe how good he is against these Crows.

[Craig]

Brian Flores disguised this guy.

[Producer Craig]

Brian Flores studied the crow way.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm breaking out a new character for this. Fresh off the Monday night Jets Dolphins game. Dan Orlofsky. I want to see him in this.

[Craig]

By the way, did Trager ever reach out about my legend of Billie Jean imitation? Was that okay with him?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if it was okay with him. He never reached out. It might not have been. I guess we'll find out. I'll ask him. Dan Orlofsky. I want you to see how Jeremiah takes down the crows here. All right? They're playing too high safety, so Jeremiah has to go shotgun right away.

[Craig]

Pow.

[Bill Simmons]

Pow. Perfect mechanics right there. Then he Uses his feet. Watch him use his leverage right here. He knocks that third guy off the horse. No penalty either. Perfect leverage. Exploits the seam, gets it done. Dan Orlowski.

[Craig]

I love it.

[Bill Simmons]

Just one Oscar. Who gets it? Redford.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably an answerable question. We already did. Was Jeremiah a Mexican War deserter? I have two great ones. But did you have one, dad? Probably an answerable question.

[Dr. Bill]

A little bit. You know, Jeremiah became friendly and then seemed to be friends with the chief. Yeah, I mean, they were trading. They were. They smoked a peace pipe. They let him live in their land.

[Gahao]

It.

[Dr. Bill]

I'm not. I'll never understand why. Just leading the party the way he did through the burial ground, led his quote, friend to have his wife and son murdered. Just seemed drastic.

[Bill Simmons]

Big leap.

[Craig]

It's the law of the land.

[Gahao]

Big leap.

[Dr. Bill]

Little over the top.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what? Both parties were wrong. That's why they settled it at the end with a couple of nice gestures. Did you have one? No, I have two good ones. Do you want the amazing one or the good one? Let's go.

[Craig]

Good then. Amazing.

[Gahao]

Okay.

[Craig]

Build up to it.

[Bill Simmons]

Was bear claw gay.

[Craig]

That's a good one. That's the good one.

[Bill Simmons]

Has that whole speech about.

[Craig]

Yeah, he had a squaw, right, once.

[Bill Simmons]

I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart. I packed me a squaw for 10 years. Meanest bitch that ever bailed for beads. Don't get me wrong, I love the woman's. I surely do. Why are you. Why are you protesting? I'm just sitting here listening to your dumb story. I swear, a woman's breast is the hardest rock that the Almighty ever made on this earth. And I could find no sign on it.

[Craig]

That sounds like the 40 year old virgin right there.

[Bill Simmons]

Virgin or gay for bear claw? I don't know. It's one or the other. Is Jeremiah dead for the last 20 minutes of this movie? Is it just a fever dream? Does he get killed when he gets stabbed in the back?

[Dr. Bill]

No, no, no, hold on.

[Bill Simmons]

He's dead and then everything that happens.

[Craig]

After is the song.

[Bill Simmons]

It's too perfect.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He kills all these people. He goes back. He goes back to the old land. There's a new family in the house. He makes up with the crows and. And meanwhile he's like Top Gun Maverick dead the whole time.

[Craig]

I like it. I think that definitely the filmmaking changes at that point when it starts doing like the dissolves into him killing people in the music playing. And it's almost like, is this really happening or is this the story? People are.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the legend of Jeremiah Johnson. And really the legend is he tried to fight seven crows at once and died.

[Dr. Bill]

The supposed fable or truth. The story about John Johnson, John Liver Reading Johnson, is that after he killed 300 Crow or however many, he made peace again with the crows and lived and traded among them.

[Craig]

I gotta be hard to get over that.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Be hard to get over.

[Craig]

It'd be hard to sit down at the trading table with that guy.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

You killed my cousin and my nephew.

[Bill Simmons]

So, Bear Claw, virgin or gay? You're going virgin.

[Craig]

Just from the description of breasts? Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's a lot like that. They feel like bags of sand.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like. I was dating this one squad in the Niagara Falls area.

[Dr. Bill]

You would know her.

[Bill Simmons]

You never met her. What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie? Dad, Very important question for you.

[Dr. Bill]

I think the.50 caliber Hawkins.

[Bill Simmons]

I had that as well. That's just. I mean, imagine if that was like right there, right now. It's like the gun.

[Craig]

I liked his red coat that he wears when it's on the warmer side of.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

But you'd have to really delouse that. Get the smell out.

[Dr. Bill]

My second choice was the beautiful coat that Swan made.

[Craig]

Oh, the bear coat.

[Bill Simmons]

That was a little sweet on Swan. Jesus.

[Dr. Bill]

I did like her.

[Bill Simmons]

Coach Finstock. Aware. Best life lesson is obviously, don't pass through a crowbarrow.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just don't.

[Craig]

I think that's a good. Just don't leave your family alone on the range.

[Bill Simmons]

There is a good quote, though.

[Craig]

If you're Murph, don't go on a camping trip.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. If we might not have food. I decided that when I depart from this life, I'd like to leave something at least to be remembered on some man's lodge pole. Good high school yearbook quote. Double feature choice. What do you have, dad, you're watching Jeremiah Johnson and then something else. What's something else?

[Dr. Bill]

I wanted to watch three movies in a row.

[Gahao]

Okay.

[Dr. Bill]

Jeremiah Johnson outlawed. Josie Ruby Wells.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bill]

And the Searchers.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, he's probably done that. I mean, that's in play that that sequence happened.

[Craig]

I would probably go with. I guess I would go with the Revenant because it's an interesting, like, modern retelling of the same kind of story.

[Bill Simmons]

I was thinking Last of the Mohicans of the Revenant. Yeah, one of too. But Revenant, I think it's on the list for rewatchable. So it's kind of been growing on Me?

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Who won the movie? Robert Redford.

[Dr. Bill]

For me, definitely.

[Craig]

I'm gonna say, you think Redford's not gonna win? Well, I think I voted Newman for the Sting. But do you think Redford's not gonna win every movie in Redford month?

[Bill Simmons]

I will find out.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Still some Redford months left. All right, this the part of the podcast when Craig the producer tells us what he thinks of. Of the movie. What'd you think, Craig?

[Producer Craig]

Fascinating experiment. This movie is. Is. As I was watching it, I was like, this is the most alien to anything that is going on today in Hollywood. It is fascinating that, like, this is the furthest thing from what would be commercially successful now.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Producer Craig]

You know, look, is it an exercise in attention span? A little bit, yeah. It's one of the most gorgeous movies I've ever seen. I think it is worth. Is a worthwhile watch just for the visuals, to be honest. And, like, I mean this in a complimentary way, but it's almost like a screensaver of a movie.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Producer Craig]

Where it's just kind of on and you can tune in and out, and just the landscapes and the cinematography alone is gorgeous. I also just love that in 1840s, people were still like, man, I gotta unplug.

[Craig]

I gotta get off the net.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The fact that he's like, I gotta get out in 1840s.

[Producer Craig]

This is too much. The city, the war. I gotta. I gotta unplug. I also thought this movie was kind of underratedly funny. Redford has some pretty good moments with Swan and with the family, with the kid. It's a funny film when you're really focusing on it.

[Bill Simmons]

So you mo. So a thumbs up. It kept your attention.

[Producer Craig]

Yeah. I think it would be the hardest sell you second somebody a little bit. During this, though, there were moments where you have to really. I mean, I tried, right. I'm like, all right, I want to focus and watch this. But I think this would be the hardest sell to, you know, somebody in their 20s or 30s now, which I don't think is saying anything crazy.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's hurt my dad's feelings.

[Craig]

Have your kids ever seen this?

[Gahao]

God, no. Yeah.

[Producer Craig]

Like, don't you think this would be a really tough movie to tell Ben to sit down for two hours and pay attention?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's every movie, but, yeah, especially this.

[Craig]

He also would have gotten up at the intermission, like, all right, that was cool.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks, dad. I'm glad him and woman and boy made it.

[Producer Craig]

The intermission also came with, like, 30 minutes left.

[Craig]

I found that odd that Was very strange.

[Producer Craig]

Why wasn't it in the middle?

[Craig]

I do think it's a very, very good time to be like, you're not going to want to get up for the last 30 minutes of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm changing my double feature answer. I think it's Cast Away.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I'll go. Jeremiah Johnson, Castaway for solo solo runs. That's like five hours of just hanging out with. With the movie. All right, dad.

[Dr. Bill]

You know, I was thinking kind of what he just said. I'm not sure Hollywood would make this movie today.

[Producer Craig]

No way.

[Craig]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they would have. The. The Crow feud would be two thirds.

[Craig]

It would have to. I mean, it was. The closest thing would be the Revenant. It was very much an action movie. And they sold the Revenant like Leo Fights a bear.

[Gahao]

Yep.

[Dr. Bill]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

This is like Robert Redford rides around.

[Producer Craig]

Movies about solitude for the first hour.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. There's no question the last half hour of the movie would be an actual.

[Craig]

Hour, but I think in 1972, people were like, hell, yeah, brother. I gotta get out of this fucking city.

[Producer Craig]

I gotta unplug.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Any last words, Dad?

[Dr. Bill]

I enjoyed being part of this because obviously it's one of my favorite movies, but it a little bit of food for thought. The Vietnam thing, I hadn't really thought about in years, but I think you're right on target. And that might have led to why some people wanted to watch it. Yeah, we don't have that right now. You know, we have other stuff going on, but I just can't see this film being made today, which is a shame. And maybe that's why I rewatch it.

[Craig]

When it comes on Dr. Bill, what would be. You've done Shawshank and Jeremiah Johnson. Is there any other white whale out there that you still want to do for rewatchables?

[Dr. Bill]

Have you. Well, one of my top. Have you done Josie Wales?

[Gahao]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Maybe that'd be the next one.

[Dr. Bill]

It's one of my.

[Bill Simmons]

That's his other favorite movie. Yeah, those are the three. Your three favorite movies. Josie Wales, Jeremiah Johnson, and Shawshank.

[Gahao]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably the natural number four.

[Dr. Bill]

Yeah, probably. And maybe Hoosier's number five.

[Craig]

We have to re. Hoosh one of these.

[Bill Simmons]

My dad wanted me to be a baseball player. We were the best damn one I ever saw. Best damn hitter I've ever seen. Suit up, dad. Pleasures always go Red Sox. Thank you. Thanks to Craig and Gahao as well. And we'll be back with Redford Month next week.