'Marathon Man' With Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rewatchables – 'Marathon Man' With Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan

Episode Release Date: June 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of "The Rewatchables" from the Ringer Podcast Network, hosts Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan delve deep into the 1976 thriller "Marathon Man." Joined by guest Craig Horlbeck, the trio explores why this film remains a staple for movie enthusiasts who relish rewatching classics. The episode, part of New York City Month, dissects the film’s enduring appeal, iconic scenes, and unforgettable performances.

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Discussing the Villains: Nazi Antagonists

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the portrayal of Nazis as villains, a theme that resonates powerfully in "Marathon Man." Both hosts agree that Nazis remain some of the most compelling villains in cinema.

Bill Simmons [02:57]: "But then you throw in Nazi war criminals walking through the jewelry district hoping nobody recognizes him, and I'm like, we've peaked."

They compare the film’s antagonist to those in other classics like "Inglourious Basterds", "Munich," and "Raiders of the Lost Ark," highlighting the unique intensity that Nazi characters bring to suspense thrillers.

Chris Ryan [04:00]: "I think Christian Zell, because of what he's got... the dental work thing is..."

Laurence Olivier’s Masterful Performance

The discussion delves deeper into Laurence Olivier’s portrayal of Dr. Christian Ziegler, praising his ability to embody pure evil with nuanced vulnerability. His performance in the torture scenes is lauded as one of the most terrifying and memorable in film history.

Bill Simmons [05:30]: "He balances it perfectly."

Chris Ryan [06:43]: "Every move he makes and everything he does takes on this huge amount of importance."

Dustin Hoffman’s Role and Acting Range

Dustin Hoffman’s portrayal of Babe Levy is another focal point. The hosts discuss his acting choices, emphasizing his strength in portraying nervous, cerebral characters. They debate whether Hoffman could have successfully taken on more action-oriented roles, concluding that his talents were best suited to psychologically complex parts.

Bill Simmons [17:44]: "I don't think he could have been Tony Montana... You don't see vulnerable evil villains that often."

Chris Ryan [15:03]: "Do you think some of his films... like, all the President's Men is like basically 50-50, him and Redford anyway."

Behind-the-Scenes Anecdotes and Screenplay Changes

The episode offers intriguing behind-the-scenes stories, particularly focusing on the dynamic between Hoffman and Olivier. They reference accounts from Robert Evans and the legendary struggles that shaped the film's production.

Bill Simmons [22:10]: "Olivier was nominated for best supporting actor. He did not win, but it's quite a category."

The discussion touches on how the screenplay was altered by Robert Towne, diverging from Goldman’s original vision, and how these changes impacted the film’s ending.

Bill Simmons [26:11]: "He changes the ending... I'm gonna go with Goldman, because he doesn't make shit up."

Iconic Scenes and Cinematic Techniques

Several key scenes in "Marathon Man" are dissected for their rewatchable qualities:

• Dental Torture Scene: Celebrated as one of the most horrifying moments in film.

  Bill Simmons [37:52]: "Him in the bathtub is about as good as it gets for a..."

• Car Chase and Diamond District Showdown: Analyzed for their suspense and execution using innovative techniques like steadicam.

  Bill Simmons [44:36]: "This was the first movie that came out that used it."

The hosts commend Conrad Hall’s cinematography, particularly the evocative shots of New York City and Paris that amplify the film's noir atmosphere.

Chris Ryan [53:47]: "Conrad's cooking... The camera shot of how he opens it was also impactful."

Character Development and Weak Points

Elsa, portrayed by Eva Marie Saint, is critiqued for her inconsistent characterization. The hosts discuss how her role deviates from the novel, leading to perceived weaknesses in her portrayal.

Bill Simmons [56:51]: "Butch's Girlfriend Award... it's the girlfriend."

Impact and Legacy

"Marathon Man" is contextualized within the broader framework of 1970s thrillers, reflecting societal anxieties post-Watergate and the Vietnam War. The film's ability to create a pervasive sense of paranoia and distrust is highlighted as a key factor in its lasting appeal.

Bill Simmons [30:07]: "It's coming out of Watergate, it's coming out of Vietnam... movies like this make you feel like you could be suddenly under threat."

They also touch on Roger Ebert’s mixed review, noting the film’s craftsmanship despite plot holes.

Bill Simmons [32:07]: "Ebert goes three stars. He said if holes and plots bother you, Marathon Man will be maddening... but it's well crafted."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts share their personal reactions to the film, reinforcing why "Marathon Man" remains a timeless thriller worth revisiting. They express excitement for future episodes and milestones, such as the upcoming 400th episode, while nostalgically reflecting on their New York City Month series.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Bill Simmons [02:57]: "Throw in Nazi war criminals walking through the jewelry district hoping nobody recognizes him, and I'm like, we've peaked."

• Chris Ryan [04:00]: "Christian Zell... the dental work thing is..."

• Bill Simmons [05:30]: "He balances it perfectly."

• Bill Simmons [37:52]: "Him in the bathtub is about as good as it gets for a..."

• Craig Horlbeck [69:05]: "I had a really hard time understanding what they were saying, so I had to turn them on."

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Key Takeaways

1. Villain Portrayal: The film's use of Nazi antagonists is lauded for its effectiveness in creating a deeply unsettling foe.
2. Stellar Performances: Laurence Olivier and Dustin Hoffman deliver iconic performances that anchor the film’s suspense and drama.
3. Cinematic Innovation: Use of techniques like steadicam and Conrad Hall’s cinematography contribute to the film’s enduring visual appeal.
4. Behind-the-Scenes Dynamics: The interplay between actors and screenwriters, particularly regarding screenplay alterations, adds depth to the film's history.
5. Cultural Impact: "Marathon Man" encapsulates the era's anxieties, making it a quintessential 1970s thriller that continues to resonate with audiences today.

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Overall, this episode of "The Rewatchables" offers a comprehensive and insightful analysis of "Marathon Man," highlighting why it remains a touchstone for thriller enthusiasts. Through detailed discussions, notable quotes, and personal reflections, Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan provide listeners with a nuanced appreciation of the film’s craftsmanship and lasting legacy.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by new Pronamel Clinical Enamel Strength Toothpaste. One thing we all try to do to stay healthy is to keep up a routine. Things like daily yoga or trying to maintain a healthy diet. So how about making oral health part of your day? Brush your teeth twice daily with Pronamel Clinical Enamel Strength for three times stronger enamel protection. And to help protect teeth for life, try new Pronamel Clinical Enamel Strength Toothpaste. Right now. The Rewatchable is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast network where we can find the watch with Chris Ryan.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure can.

[Bill Simmons]

Pops on the big picture from time to time as well. About nine other Ringer podcasts.

[Chris Ryan]

I honestly am keeping it to the big three right now, but I'm always open.

[Bill Simmons]

Philly special. Maybe for the draft.

[Chris Ryan]

Perhaps we'll see who we get at three.

[Bill Simmons]

Who you rooting for?

[Chris Ryan]

Trade down for Edgecomb. Oh, get another piece.

[Bill Simmons]

There you go. It's still New York City Month. It kind of just fell into New York City month. I saw you did that five episodes in June, though. We have to find two more New York movies after this.

[Chris Ryan]

Twist my arm.

[Bill Simmons]

Marathon man was an easy one. We've been circling this one for a while. You kept nudging me.

[Chris Ryan]

I've been begging to get in the dentist's chair.

[Bill Simmons]

I forgot to bring the book. I was gonna put the book. Yeah, right out there. But anyway, Marathon man is next. Dustin Hoffman, Laurence Olivier, Roy Scheider, William Devane, Marta Keller. Is it safe?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Is it safe?

[Bill Simmons]

Marathon Man, a thriller rated rhythm. This episode of the Rewatchables is presented to you by Amazon Prime. Prime is more than just fast delivery. It's also where you can dive deep into your favorite movie genres with prime video and get what you need fast to fuel your obsession. You also, if you. If you watch a movie on Amazon prime, you can click down and see the actors in each scene for a lot of the movies, which is great snacks for movie night. A new book on film theory. It's all there too, on Amazon Prime. Whatever it is, prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into or getting into. Head to Amazon.com prime and follow your obsession wherever it goes. Nazis. The greatest movie villains we will ever have. This is in the rewatch we just peaked. We're just never going to top it. There's nothing better if you, if you.

[Chris Ryan]

Have a chance to get a vice angler in the movie, you got it. You got to do it, man.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just, you know, you can have all these different types of villains. You can make them as evil as you want. You can make them as intimidating, as tough as you want. But. But then you throw in Nazi war criminal walking through the jewelry district hoping nobody recognizes him, and I'm like, we've peaked.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I was thinking about the. Basically, Pauline Kael called this a Jewish revenge fantasy. Marathon Man. But I was thinking about what's. What's like the top of the line for that. Inglourious Basterds is probably number one, right?

[Chris Ryan]

That would be the apex.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Marathon Man's in there. Munich for sure. Raiders.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he's not Jewish, but.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but the Nazis are the villains in there.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, are you talking about just Nazi villains? Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Some just being in somewhere in the vicinity where at some point you're watching the movie going, we gotta take these guys down.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And this one has probably the single best villain of all those villains.

[Chris Ryan]

Which is weird because he.

[Bill Simmons]

Or you go with Wall. It's tough.

[Chris Ryan]

It's tough. I think Christian Zell, because of what his. He's got one move and that move is pretty, pretty arresting. The dental work thing is like, you take that.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say the. I suddenly have a razor coming out of my.

[Chris Ryan]

He's got two moves. Yeah. So he's got two moves. But. But Waltz in Landa is pretty, pretty amazing and such an orator and just an incredible, like, character in general.

[Bill Simmons]

But Zell better entrance. Zoe. Although Zell's entrance with the opera, with him folding the shirts, shaving his head. Yeah. Pretty solid.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But Waltz's first scene is pretty great.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. They're in the finals.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Pyramid.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll work on social Nazi villain. Mount Rushmore.

[Chris Ryan]

I want to find out who's. Who's the number 35 to 43 ranked Nazi village.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, it's funny. We can't have them anymore because now it's that you couldn't do this in the modern age because it's been too far away.

[Chris Ryan]

They're making it.

[Bill Simmons]

You need that. Grandchildren of. Of the war villains. It just doesn't have the same. In my opinion, the same kind of zest.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that I think when you're watching this film, we, we talked about this, I think on a pod recently and I can't remember which one it was. But it's crazy to watch this movie that's 40 years old and they're. They're so much closer to World War II now that in this movie than we are even to this movie now.

[Bill Simmons]

I know.

[Chris Ryan]

And so it's. It's a very living, breathing thing. And the idea that this guy has come out of hiding and his actual victims are like, holy fucking shit, the devil has come back. Is, like, one of the most, like, terrifying, arresting moments in movie history to me.

[Bill Simmons]

And everything Olivier does with the character and I can't wait to talk about Olivier.

[Chris Ryan]

About Larry.

[Bill Simmons]

Um, yeah, Sir Larry just. I think what's so great about the character is he's. He's fully evil.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The torture scene, you. You can just see it. You're like, okay, I get it. I get that this guy is as dark as we can get as. As humans. But then when he's. There's a couple. Like, he's getting off in the. In the airport, he's in the jewelry district, and he's got the right level of like, I'm actually nervous for my own safety. You don't see, like, vulnerable evil villains that often. He balances it per. Perfectly.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it was a case of the filmmakers playing into the realities of the actor. So Olivier is sick while making this movie. He's old. Like, he can't do a lot of physical stuff. He can't do a lot of stunts. He can't move around that much. But that then every move he makes and everything he does takes on this huge amount of importance.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So they, like, played to his remaining strengths in the film itself. And the dentistry scene, which is one of the most horrifying things in movie history, is actually doesn't require a lot of him. Right. Like, he's just sort of, like, pacing around this room a little bit and asking this question over and over and over again.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the greats.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Sir Larry.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because you think, by all counts, one of the greatest stage actors who ever lived. I don't know if he's 1, 2, 3. Where he ranks in the pyramid.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like him and Barrymore. Any of the modern.

[Bill Simmons]

He has to be mentioned. If you're just being like, hey, who are the great stage actors? He's always has to be mentioned.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But part of. I think what made him great when he's playing, like, Richard iii, things like that, is he's got this physical presence walking around the stage. So by the time we get to Marathon man, you know, and there's been some unbelievable writing about this movie, Goldman has a whole chapter about it in his book about how physically frail he was and how hard it was for him to stand. But he's still an imposing guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So he's just the perfect balance of old, frail, scary. I actually still believe, like, he could kill Hoffman. And it's just an awesome performance, which, of course, he does not win. But he was inspired. His character in this movie is the White angel, but it was inspired by Mengele, who was the angel of Death. And it was the same thing in the concentration camps. He would just see him with the white. They would see him with the white hair and they just knew. So it's based on that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Goldman's idea. So this is based on. Goldman wrote the screenplay based on his own novel. And his. I think the genesis for the novel was what if Mengele had to come out of hiding or go to New York to get medical treatment?

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Or to get. Yeah, to get some sort of something.

[Chris Ryan]

What happens when you put a character like that in play, a person like that in play, and then he builds out the world from around that.

[Bill Simmons]

So he writes the book, he publishes it in 74. That's less than 30 years after World War II ends. Still pretty fresh. Like, think about it now, in 2025, that's 95. So that's like basically the OJ trial.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which doesn't seem like it happened that long ago. Right. Even though it did. Even though, like, Craig, you know, was born that year.

[Chris Ryan]

Would have loved to hear Christian Zell's takes on the O.J. trial.

[Bill Simmons]

He probably would have been able to get a better confession out of O.J. goldman writes the book knowing it's going to be a movie because it just reads perfectly as a movie. Sells the film rights for 500K. Bringing in our guy, big shot Bob. Robert Evans. So it's funny, McGraw. The kind of legs that could stop a room.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a wonderful picture. There's a making of this. I was gonna save this for what stage the best, but there is a making of Marathon man on YouTube.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't believe I missed this 20 minutes.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's also. I think it's also on the 4K. It's Robert Evans. His foot's up on the chair. He's got a navy V neck sweater and a perfectly, like, starched white shirt underneath. And he's standing there with his glasses and he's just like. Ever since I came to Paramount, we love to make incredible pictures for everybody's entertainment. You'll see in the Waterworks. We recreated that in Paramount and spent no expense, took up two soundstages.

[Bill Simmons]

I can hear him saying it.

[Chris Ryan]

And the entire wall behind him is just pictures Of Robert Evans.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he was like a parody of a parody of a parody.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Patton Oswald did the like the greatest ever Robert Evans imperson. But it's actually beyond impersonation. If you watch this video. I wish producers still did this today.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think the 70s weren't just the apex of unintentional comedy. It's like, I don't think we'll ever even come 10% close ever again.

[Chris Ryan]

No. The combination of cocaine and everything else is just incredible, you know, and it.

[Bill Simmons]

Would manifest itself in some ways, like basically everything Telly Savalas did as Kojak. The battle of network stars the first couple years, just. There's a lack of self awareness all over the place. But Bob Evans was the ultimate producer for that.

[Chris Ryan]

Be no software incredible, though, if we did. The backdrop for you is just a hundred pictures of you.

[Bill Simmons]

I think LeBron might have done that for Mind the Game. They might have talked him out of it. Bob Evans said the book reads like the movie movie of all time. I regard it as a cheap investment because you don't often find books that translate into film. This is the best thing I've read since the Godfather. I knew I never should have let Ali McGraw leave with Steve McQueen. I knew I'd never get it back.

[Chris Ryan]

That son of a bitch. Peckinpah.

[Bill Simmons]

Two months with Steve McQueen. Even I would have folded. So anyway, we have Bill Goldman, Bob Evans, and then they're like, let's just get a bunch of awesome famous actors. And not to step on casting what ifs. But they went. Bob Evans said they actually went five for five with the people they wanted for the movie in the roles they wanted and just got all of them because. Does everybody love the script?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

There was some rumors about if this person said no, we might look at this person. Or like John Schlesinger, the director might have wanted this person. But it sounds like Evans got his first draft picks.

[Bill Simmons]

Dustin Hoffman, Larry Olivier. I like that they call him Larry. I can't wait to talk about my Lawrence Olivier deep dive in the Indian airport on Saturday. William Devane.

[Chris Ryan]

Wait, so you did Olivier into Dylan Harper tape?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I finished my Marathon man research and then went right into four hours of YouTube. And our guy, Rush Scheider. Yeah, big time for him.

[Chris Ryan]

Humphrey Bogart of the 1970s, the thinking man's action star.

[Bill Simmons]

Still recovering from Sean saying he wasn't handsome. Remember Sean's whole thing?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, he's not conventionally handsome. He's got that nose.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean just downed him. Correct. Shatter. Can't even Defend himself. Just not handsome enough for Sean. Hoffman's the lead. He's coming off Lenny. This comes out same year as all the President's men. He loses £15, runs four miles a day. And Evan said Hoffman would, quote, would run just for a take. He would run for a half mile. So he came into the scene, he would actually be out of breath. This was the height of Dustin Hoffman. Difficult method actor guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. Yeah. And he pressed Olivier with it.

[Bill Simmons]

He did. So hold that because I want to get into some of those stories. Because we had to. Olivier too. This leads to all the President's been marathon man the straight time in 78. You like that movie?

[Chris Ryan]

I do.

[Bill Simmons]

Agatha. Kramer versus Kramer.

[Chris Ryan]

That's 79. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

We covered that in the Rewatchables. That's my favorite Dustin Hoffman movie and performance. Three years off Tootsie. Three years off Death of a Salesman on tv, two years off Ishtar. He's doing a lot of stage stuff. Have we ever really had a Dustin Hoffman? How much did you like him? Conversation?

[Chris Ryan]

We haven't. He's probably of that cohort of 70s actors. 70s associated actors, I would say. Not necessarily. Like, I go, I go down to like Duvall, you know, like, like pass Pacino, De Niro, Duvall, Hackman, you know, like, I get pretty far down the 70s before I'm like, Hoffman's great. I mean, I think you can see, like, it's an interesting point in his career because he can impose his creative choices on the material rather than the reverse.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So if you read the book, Babe is much chattier, much more, much funnier and is like kind of this like nervous. But he's also supposed to be like 6 foot 1 and kind of like a cut out a piece of rock. Like a pretty big athlete. And Hoffman makes him into a much more damaged, much more nervous, much shyer kind of character, I think. And that was obviously not against it.

[Bill Simmons]

The other side would have been pretty good.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a different kind of movie. It's a different kind of movie. It's like a little bit more playful. Uh, and I, I'd say the novel is more playful.

[Bill Simmons]

It's weird. He. I, I'm with you. Like, I could list a whole bunch of 70s actors and 80s actors before I'm like, and then Hoffman. I don't. You don't have a lot of conversations with people that are like, my favorite actor is Dustin Hoffman. That's my guy. I ride with Hoffman.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think?

[Bill Simmons]

It's like everybody agrees he's really good he's almost like an athlete where you're like, yeah, I really respect him, but not a huge fan.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think maybe some of his films, like, I. I mean, all the President's Men is like basically 50. 50. Him and Redford anyway. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

He's incredible. But he almost. It's almost like he needs someone to play off of. And it really depends on who he's playing off of is kind of where it goes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You wouldn't want to see him in the Revenant.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I would not just climb into a bear naked. I feel like that's the second Revenant.

[Bill Simmons]

I wouldn't want. It might have been scouting a little bit. You wouldn't want to see him in the Martian. You wouldn't want to spend two hours with him and Mars by himself. I wouldn't want to be in Castaway with Dustin Hoffman. I wouldn't really want to be in a buddy cop movie with Dustin Hoffman.

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

I think there are particular things that he's really good at, but I always feel like he's Dustin Hoffman in the movie, don't you? That, like, he's not lost in a role. Hackman. I feel like, because we get horny hacks.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true.

[Bill Simmons]

We get Hoosiers hacks. I feel like he has different moves, but, like the Kramer vs Kramer guy vs this guy, are they like that different?

[Chris Ryan]

They're all cerebral. I think they all have, like a certain nervous energy. Yeah, I think. Cerebral, nervous, little bit damaged, incredibly unconventional looking guy. You know what I mean?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, and tiny.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So it's. It's a lot of these 70s stars, with the exception of Redford and I guess Beatty, but even Beatty was kind of a weirdo. Like, have a really, really, really particular energy. It was a mom, guys who maybe in other times in Hollywood history would have been character actors or become the biggest movie stars in the world.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, one of the I'll step on casting what ifs. One of the reasons he took the movie was because he heard Pacino wanted to do it. And I think Pacino and Hoffman were on each other's corner in a bunch of different ways.

[Chris Ryan]

Hoffman was up for Michael, wasn't he?

[Bill Simmons]

I think I. I just feel like you had like, the Redford side of, like, leading men guys over here and Newman and McQueen. And then you had kind of the Hoffman, Pacino, maybe De Niro a little bit, but the little artsier actor guys. And I think Hoffman and Pacino. Pacino did a better job of stretching parts and kind of falling into characters and losing himself in characters.

[Chris Ryan]

I feel like in some movies, to me, at least Pacino's cooler. Like, he. He can be cool.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Hoffman rarely is.

[Bill Simmons]

But it all worked out for him because he became, you know, he's definitely in the first sentence with all those guys.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I just think he was. I felt. I always felt like he was a little more limited than some of those other guys. Like, I don't think he could have been Tony Montana, you know, that would.

[Chris Ryan]

Have been really funny.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if I would have wanted to see him in Dog Day Afternoon.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if I would have believed him as Serpico. I don't think he would have been fun as Vincent Hannah. There's no comedy.

[Chris Ryan]

Straight Time is Straight Time, which I.

[Bill Simmons]

Think is a really interesting movie. I wish he had made like three more zags. I guess Lenny is a zag, but that's a pretty. Yes, that's a pretty dated.

[Chris Ryan]

And then Lenny is.

[Bill Simmons]

Lenny is not a fun hangman and all that jazz.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what Bob Fosse's editing. So when he keeps looking at the standup footage, it's supposed to be Lenny.

[Bill Simmons]

Even, like. Even if he'd been the Scheider part and all that jazz, that would have been really fun if he had been the lead in Jaws.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. It just seems like he was very particular about the parts he took. But this is like a classic Dustin Hoffman part.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Right? Yeah, it's perfect. He gets to be the hero. He's a little damaged.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He gets to stutter into he.

[Chris Ryan]

It's full. It's full sent.

[Bill Simmons]

He.

[Chris Ryan]

He jogged. He lost 15 pounds. He probably, like, wore prosthetic up teeth after the dental scene. Like, he. He immerses himself in it.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, you have Dustin Hoffman thoughts?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I just. I think that. I can't tell if the reasons why there's not a lot of Dustin Hoffman's now is just because we need people who fit into more traditional buckets, like, you know, action star or comedy guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Or also.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Or if it's more just that the movies he was in aren't as popular now and don't get made now, which is why people like him aren't as famous. I don't know which one is kind.

[Chris Ryan]

Of what we were talking about with Beatty, you know, when we were like, how come Beatty's movies. How come Beatty doesn't, like. I don't feel like his name has the instant recognition or the associations that.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Redford does, because there is no Hoffman comp right now. Like, I don't know who I would pick, because the movies that Hoffman is starring in that made a lot of money back in the day, that made him famous, aren't making a lot of money today. There's.

[Chris Ryan]

The closest thing I can think of is Jesse Eisenberg, but he's not as intense as Hoffman by a. By any stretch of the imagination.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, Kieran Culkin honestly has some Hoffman qualities, but, like, if you put the two of them together, maybe it's like Hoffman, but I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, by all accounts, pretty polarizing as a hang.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

In some of these sets and some of the movies. And Goldman was not a fan.

[Chris Ryan]

He was not.

[Bill Simmons]

And Goldman was not shy about a couple of the actors that he didn't like.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, Hoffman was apparently a big part of why the ending of the movie got changed. And they brought in Robert Town.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, hold on. I still have a part for that. We got to hit Olivier really fast. I think one of the great 20th century actors. Yeah, he clinched that one. He won two. He won an Oscar and two honorary Oscars. Went for Hamlin in 1949. He won five Primetime Emmys. He was knighted in 1947.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

They said that the two greatest things you could have seen him in were Othello and Richard iii. Goldman wrote, if he could have seen two performances when he was younger, one of them would have been Othello.

[Chris Ryan]

There's that awes anecdote in A Adventures in the Screen Trade where Olivier keeps referencing his. The last time he's been in New York. And he references like these years. And Goldman's like, I realized that, like, he's calling it 51, but that's actually like when he was doing Glass Menagerie or whatever, Right. And he's like, holy shit.

[Bill Simmons]

It'd be like Tom Brady listing off super bowl locations before. Yeah, I was in New Orleans. So anyway, by the time we hit the 70s, he thinks he's dying of cancer, takes the role to make more money for his family, to leave some stuff behind. And he's on pain meds all the time. Robert Evans had to get Lloyd's of London to insure him.

[Chris Ryan]

One of the great insures in the entire world.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Had to talk to Lloyd himself. And he does the movie and then recovers and then has this really weird IMDb stretch afterwards where he's in a bunch of TV movies. He's in A Bridge Too Far. He's in the Boys from Brazil. He's in A Little Romance, which is a really good movie. That was Diane Lane's first movie. He's in Dracula. He's in the Jazz Singer with Neil diamond, which is one of the worst movies of the early 80s. He's in Clash of the Titans in 81 as Zeus. So all of a sudden, he's grabbing some paychecks near the end there. But, I mean, the reverence that everyone talks about acting with him. I don't know who that is now, where it's like, Olivier's in our movie. This is. I'm psyched.

[Chris Ryan]

Daniel D. Lewis.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably like 15 years from now. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

If DDL came back and was like, you know what? I'll. I'll make a couple. I'll just make, like, five more movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Play Zell.

[Chris Ryan]

Pat out the checking account.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God, that's ddl. Devain Goldman had this thing. I'm just going to read it. I cornered. He's talked about. They broke from a scene. I cornered Devane, who is bright and very articulate. I told him how wonderful he had done and asked what it was like rehearsing with Laurence Olivier. It doesn't matter. Devine replied, I didn't know what in hell he was talking about. And said, so this is rehearsal. Devane said, it's nothing. When the camera starts to roll, give me a little of this, he'll give me a little of that, and you'll never know. I'm in the movie. No one's going to be watching me. That's Olivier, man. That's how everyone thought about him. Except for Hoffman, who's like, let's fucking improvise.

[Chris Ryan]

Larry, what are you doing? Hoffman's like Anthony Edwards. He's like, I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so that Goldman tells this long story of him making Olivier rehearse Hoffman and making him stand. And it was clear to everyone in the set that Olivier was fade and improvise. And everyone thought it was like this power play. And then Hoffman said after the story wasn't true. And I'm gonna go with my guy Goldman, because he doesn't make shit up. But this leads to. I'm going to put this category right here. The Steven Seagal Shitting on Himself award for most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot.

[Chris Ryan]

Goes to Lawrence Olivier. His portrayal is Henry V. So the.

[Bill Simmons]

Story was method act. There's a method acting thing. And Hoffman was up. This is the story not saying it's true. Hoffman said he was up three days to Try to simulate what it would be like to be up for three days. And he's telling Olivier about this. And Hoffman had. He was just rubbing Olivier the wrong way. And Olivier finally said about method acting, my dear boy, why don't you just try acting?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And everyone on this set was like, oh, it was like just this huge cut down. And this became a legendary Hollywood story.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. It's gotten told in 13 different ways by everybody who was like, a part of it, from Goldman to Hoffman, Schlesinger. Like, everybody has got their version of how it happened, whether he was joking.

[Bill Simmons]

Whether he was serious.

[Chris Ryan]

Hoffman's version is he had been going to Studio 54 a lot and that he had been partying a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

And the problem is Studio 54 wasn't open until the year after. That's where his story falls apart, because it opened in 1977, a year after the movie came out.

[Chris Ryan]

You got Johnny Cochran over here.

[Bill Simmons]

Sorry, sorry, Dusty. He said on Inside the Actor Studio, the exchange was distorted. And he had been up all night at a nightclub. And Olivier was merely joking. Yeah, it's too famous of a story. I also don't think there's a lot of people, like, protecting Dustin Hoffman at this point because he seems a little prickly.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So he also said Hoffman, on the last day of shooting, Olivier visited him. He brought him a book, the Complete Works of William Shakespeare, and then proceeded to read scenes from several of the plays for Hoffman. And Hoffman said he was an absolute delight. They loved each other. And then he said Goldman made up this stuff or exaggerated it because he was mad because they changed the ending.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Again, I'm gonna go with Goldman.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, It's. It's incredible. We don't really have enough of this anymore. Where I think for like several decades, Hoffman and Goldman were essentially like, trash talking each other whenever they would be asked to talk about Marathon Man.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And.

[Bill Simmons]

And simultaneously, he was also trash talking with Redford.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Redford came up with this whole alternate version of how all the President's Men allegedly happened.

[Chris Ryan]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So they neither. I mean, that's the most famous movie book anyone's ever written. His first one. And both of those guys really resented it. Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

And I mean, for Goldman, it's his novel, it's his screenplay. And then the star has his ending rewritten by, like, arguably the only screenwriter who's bigger than him, Robert Towne.

[Bill Simmons]

So who do you believe?

[Chris Ryan]

I like. I like Goldman's version better. And I could see.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think he would make it Up. He was like a very prideful guy. Yeah, he remembers everything.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think he's also pretty like honest about his shortcomings and the times he's fucked up.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. He's very self deprecating and he's the first one to criticize himself. So in this case, they changed the ending. We'll get in all.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't remember which one in Adventures in the Screen Trade where he's like, I screwed. Like, was it right stuff where he's just like, I just didn't do this well.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then they. They completely like saved it. So he's honest about his failures.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, no question. I mean he. And he went into like huge writing slumps and all kinds of things. So listen, it was the 70s and these guys had huge egos and they get studios with kowtow to them and all of them took advantage of it and that was it. But I'm team Olivier and team. Team Goldman. So Olivier was nominated for best supporting actor. He did not win, but it's quite a category. Robards wins for all the President's Men. Ned Beatty Network. Burgess Meredith, Rocky, Burt Young Rocky as Paulie Panino. And then Olivier. I'm good with Robards.

[Chris Ryan]

Stacked category.

[Bill Simmons]

Robarts is amazing in that movie. You're good with that, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Beatty. I think Beatty's like in third there behind Olivier.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Hoffman did not get nominated.

[Chris Ryan]

But he did for presidents.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Oh, nothing. $6.5 million budget made $28.2 million. And we should have mentioned this sooner. The kind of movie that just doesn't exist anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

No, this would be a prestige TV show by far.

[Bill Simmons]

Or it would be like an Apple movie that they hired two huge stars for. It had a huge budget, but it was almost too big.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, if you made this movie today, you just.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody would.

[Chris Ryan]

I was just thinking about all the scenes that are outdoors in Paris and New York City. Like, I don't even know how much that would cost. Like they shoot on the street in New York. There are scenes where it's like they had. They must have had different rules about extras back then because. Yeah, people are like looking at the camera, you know, so it's obviously they're just running around these cities handheld with Hoffman and Scheider.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. They just seem there like in the jewelry district with 500 people.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know how they do it.

[Chris Ryan]

It's incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So it would probably be. You read probably a scripted.

[Chris Ryan]

But it's also a perfect 70s movie in a lot of ways. It's certainly like the place where our interests converge. It is a political conspiracy thriller meets a revenge thriller. So it's about like all this, like this pent up historical anxiety, the Jewish factor, the Nazis. But it's also about a guy who's been living inside of his brain for a long time who's forced to like step out and become a physical force and defend himself. Which is basically what a lot of like we talked about it with Death Wish. But a lot of the revenge movies and Hoffman's made other movies like that with Straw Dogs and stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And we should. I should have said this sooner too, but the, the paranoia piece of it, it's just so specific to this era and it's so good. It's like so in my wheelhouse. Something about the vibes of these movies where it's just like, don't trust anyone ever. Everything is shadowy at night. There's never people around. It's always dark. You just never know who's coming around a corner. There's always. Could be like some sort of henchmen even in a park. Yeah, just some henchmen could just mug you and you don't know what their intentions are.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, they make the everyday seem surreal. Like you can shoot at the Library of Congress and all the President's Men, or you can shoot somebody's apartment in Harlem in Marathon man and make it seem like this German expressionist kind of setting or, you know, like the entire world is pushing down on these characters. It's honestly one of my favorite kinds of movies is these 70s thrillers.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we've talked about it. It's a specific era. It's coming out of Watergate, it's coming out of Vietnam, it's coming out of the JFK assassination and the RFK assassination, the MLK assassination and just people not knowing what to believe anymore and who were the good guys, who are the bad guys. And you could see a movie like this where you could feel like you could be. Babe, you're just studying for some exam or something.

[Chris Ryan]

Dissertation. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you're in your bathtub and then all of a sudden somebody's breaking down your door and trying to get you.

[Chris Ryan]

Isn't it an interesting turnover where. Because we did Star wars and I think the thrill of Star wars is every kid who watches it can say to themselves, like, what if I was Luke Skywalker? Like, what if I saved the galaxy and I was this special person? But the thrill of these movies is like, what if every dark fantasy I had is true and everybody is out to get me and the government is following me. And I mean, it's just such a weird changeover in the, in just one decade, they change over to like. No, no, no. Like what if the galaxy, like you could fix it all. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then it moves into the 80s and everybody's like, you know, it'd be cool being rich. Here's a movie about that. Hey, here's another movie.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what if an alien came, he might be friendly.

[Bill Simmons]

6.5 million budget, 28.2 million makes it. And Ebert goes three stars. He said if holes and plots bother you, Marathon man will be maddening. But as well crafted escapist entertainment is a diabolical thrower. The movie works with relentless skill. I'm gonna give this.

[Chris Ryan]

It.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like a half you rush.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I, I think he robbed it.

[Bill Simmons]

Of a half star.

[Chris Ryan]

Should we start giving stars to.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, I was just about to say that we have to review because I.

[Chris Ryan]

Think this is a two star review for a three star movie that we actually think is four stars.

[Bill Simmons]

It's. Listen, if he wanted to say three and a half because there's a couple potholes, I would have been upset about it. But I like if this movie came out now, we would be like, oh my God.

[Chris Ryan]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

They figured it out. Movies are back. And this was just like another movie in 1976 that was really good. But we were just cranking these out 10, 12 a year.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And even when they didn't work, it was like Black Sunday, which is like a really cool movie that doesn't totally work, but it's still fun to watch.

[Chris Ryan]

Ebert says something earlier in his review that's paraphrasing is just like on a moment to moment, it only matters. Thrillers only. It only matters if a thriller is believable on a moment to moment basis. Like on any thriller you can step back and be like, what the fuck is Vertigo about? Like, come on. And you can do that with this movie. But when that music comes in, the Michael Small music comes in and the shadows and the weird moments and just like everybody kind of milling around and you don't know who's a spy and who's not. It's just like who cares about the plot?

[Bill Simmons]

It's so funny when you read the reviews, especially Pauline, she hated this. Yeah. They. Everybody's expectations were so high for every movie. It's hilarious.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Ebert's just like, ah, didn't quite get there. Like Lawrence Libby playing an evil Nazis, like I don't know. Three stars. Solid let's take a break and then we'll do the categories. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Life is full of decisions, big and small. And sometimes you make one you can really stand behind. I did this a few times in my life, especially in the mid 2010s after I left Grantland and ESPN. And I was like, you know what? I still think there's an idea for a company that could really work. And then the ringer. And now we're 10 years later, we're still here. State Farm gets it. Making confident choices can make all the difference. That's why with the State Farm personal price plan, you can choose the right amount of coverage to help create an affordable price. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. All right, most rewatchable scene. We got to start with the crazy car chase.

[Chris Ryan]

Old man road rage.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, old man road rage. I, I this also wins the Ruffalo Hannah Ruby Partridge over acting award for boat drivers.

[Chris Ryan]

I think you, you I have a different winner for Ruffalo, but yeah, it's.

[Bill Simmons]

For me, it wins it. Okay. It just goes on and on. It's very 70s. I think this would be a much more exciting car accident 50 years later for filming it, but very fun to watch.

[Chris Ryan]

The, the, the drive into the oil truck is a little like, it's a little naked. You guys could have broke.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's a little naked. Guns. The hotel fight scene.

[Chris Ryan]

Just all of the doc stuff in Paris. Roy Scheider looking like a bag of leather.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, what's your move when somebody comes around with you with the piano wire?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, there's only one move.

[Bill Simmons]

You just got to do this right away, right?

[Chris Ryan]

You gotta.

[Bill Simmons]

Because if you that up, you're just immediately done.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, you're dead.

[Bill Simmons]

So you gotta do this. But then what's the second move? Elbow.

[Chris Ryan]

I hope I never have to find out what my. Yeah, I probably go headbutt.

[Bill Simmons]

So up that headbutt. Maybe like lifting the leg, try to kick in the balls.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You see the piano wire? I, I think the single most underrated.

[Chris Ryan]

And then I turn around like, stop. Did you hear Devers got treated to the giants?

[Bill Simmons]

It just happened. His war was a little low this year. I think piano wire is the single most terrifying thing next to dental Equipment.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'm saying, like, when the bad guys come in, they could give. They could do numb chucks like you. We've seen every sort of device. It does seem getting hurt, even if you're stopping it, you're still getting like eight stitches in your hand. The way his blood got to hurt out of God, you're just slicing tendons.

[Chris Ryan]

I also love the old guy in the balcony across.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the watcher guy. Yeah. So these are two scenes together, but I'm putting them together. They're both for shatter. Doc drops in on Babe, and then Doc goes to lunch with Babe and Elsa.

[Chris Ryan]

Love the lunch combo.

[Bill Simmons]

When he drops in on Hoffman, it becomes a play for like four minutes. And it's just crackling dialogue. It's just really good. Two good actors sizing each other up, throwing some. Throwing some pitches at each other. Really good stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

Does this also. You just learn so much about them from Doc's reaction to Babe writing about their dad. Yeah, Like, I don't want to see this shit. You know, like, it's just you, you know, you learn everything you need to know about this.

[Bill Simmons]

And then with Elsa, he's like, just rope a dopeser. And then he goes, I've made all this up. There is no Verbia. There is no Mount Rosa.

[Chris Ryan]

There's no Claude Lasseur.

[Bill Simmons]

She's like, what? Pretty fun. Fun Rope it up trick. All right. Doc goes to see Zell and then Babe and gets stabbed to death and then shows up all bloody.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We get a good Hoffman scream. Here we go. Hoffman in the bathtub, right into the torture scene. I think this is most rewatchable for me.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, it's a tough watch.

[Bill Simmons]

Him in the bathtub is about as good as it gets for a. What would I do if I was in this situation?

[Chris Ryan]

Try to crawl out the window.

[Bill Simmons]

Everyone's fear of just being naked. If you're about to be murdered, just be like, I just gotta get some pajamas on before you kill me. Hold on. Can you hold on one second with the piano wire? Just give me one minute here. Just go get some pants on. Yeah, but then the way they're screwing the door frame, that's like, all right. And then the window's not big enough to get out of. And then we get right into the Olivier.

[Chris Ryan]

It's safe. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it safe? Yes, it's safe. It's very safe.

[Chris Ryan]

So safe, you wouldn't believe it.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it safe? I think that's another good scary movie device. When somebody's just saying this incoherent sentence over and over again that you don't have an answer for.

[Chris Ryan]

So, Craig. Yo. Did you. Had you heard of Is it safe before you saw this movie?

[Craig Horlbeck]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

What did you think of this scene?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I thought it was incredible.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I thought the. The. I agree. I think the bathtub scene is one of the scarier, most suspenseful scenes I've seen in a long time. And for how this movie's very quiet in a lot of moments, and it's terrifying also. I didn't just. I just. Nobody lays in baths anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I mean, nobody just ruminates me.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm the only one.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Nobody ruminates in a bath.

[Bill Simmons]

What are you talking about? I invented baths. Didn't have them before I started.

[Chris Ryan]

19Th century prostitutes didn't invent baths.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I invented them. Baths were out before I started taking them.

[Craig Horlbeck]

You still take baths?

[Bill Simmons]

I do.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

It's good for my lower back. Oh, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That's good.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I still read there.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Used to read books. Now I'd bring the iPad in there and read that.

[Chris Ryan]

Retweets.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes. Gone through Twitter. X. Did Elon do anything today? Oh, crazy one. Elon. Yeah. The. Is it safe? I love scenes in movies where you're watching, going. And, you know, Tarantino, I think very smartly. Some of the stuff that he kind of.

[Chris Ryan]

Some of his, like, torture stuff, some.

[Bill Simmons]

Of the stuff he borrowed from the 70s as homages or just things that he liked. And one of the things that he was really good at is the. I don't know where this scene is going, but I know I should be scared.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I have a charismatic somebody who's.

[Chris Ryan]

Up to Michael Madsen dancing with the razor blade.

[Bill Simmons]

That's basically a marathon, right. You're just like, what? So in this, it's like, why does he keep asking, safe? What the fuck is this guy up to?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. It's almost like I don't even know if, like, after the first 10 or 15 times I saw this movie, if I even thought about, like, what he was actually asking. Because, you know, it's. It's basically like, am I going to get robbed at the bank?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But you're just like, this is such an existential, almost like, unanswerable question.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And this is the moment where this is why you get Hoffman. It's like for every scene where you may be like, all right, Dustin, you're dialing it up a little bit. Or like, you don't have to run Larry in circles here. This is the scene where he is as scared as any Normal person would be. And him being like, I can't. How can I possibly answer a question? I don't know what you're asking me.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, like, yeah, John Henry caught. When he called me about the Deborah's trade, he wouldn't tell me what it was. He just kept asking if it was safe. But I was like, no, John Henry, don't trade our best hitter.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, fuck.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the other torture scene after the rope, a dope from William Devane. My guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. A lot of rope a dopes in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

And Olivier says a live, freshly cut nerve is infinitely more sensitive. And you're just like, just fucking. Can you just shoot me? How about just kill me?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, please. That's because the Mookie shoot me. The head was dead and the Xander tooth was dead.

[Craig Horlbeck]

So they cut a new one.

[Chris Ryan]

Rafi.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, man. I got the Roman Anthony Marcella Meyer teeth in the way back. Hoffman said Olivier got inspiration for the torture scene from seeing a gardener prune roses shortly before the shooting. I don't know if I totally believe this. I'm not sure. Olivier needed a lot of inspiration. But he said that Olivier realized that Zell was a craftsman, that he used tools with skill. This also has a great exchange with Devane and Olivier. I believe in my country. The Vane says. And Olivia is like, so did we. Yeah, just like. Also, evil Nazi was Good points.

[Chris Ryan]

Zell's accent being kind of like from nowhere.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is so creepy.

[Bill Simmons]

Everything about him so creepy.

[Chris Ryan]

He's not coming around being like, we have is of making you talk Doc Jones. Like, he's. Yeah. It's like he's been in South America for a long time. Like, it's just kind of this flat accent.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He does an amazing job of. You can feel the baggage of all the horrible things he's done and probably still has in him deep down. Because that stuff never goes away. It's not like, hey, I'm not an evil guy anymore. Like, at some point you are who you are. It's in your DNA. And you could feel it in the DNA still with him. And when he's torturing Babe, you can see there's 20% of him. He's like, oh, man, I'm back.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, this is great.

[Bill Simmons]

Just fucking with people again. I really miss this Zell in the diamond district. Getting recognized.

[Chris Ryan]

So unreal, man.

[Bill Simmons]

The scene's just the best. The guy first, he's in there with the two guys, and one of them's kind of like.

[Chris Ryan]

Because he sees the. The tattoo.

[Bill Simmons]

I know you perhaps you do. I'm pretty good at faces. Is myself. Christopher Hess. How do you do? Christopher Hess. How do you do? Wait, wait, let me think. One of them is kind of side eyeing him a little bit and we get a little wrist knife and it all leads to him opening the security deposit box and finding the diamonds. Which is an awesome Olivier scene. Yeah. Just like the ca. I like the camera shot too of how just him opening it. And it's also.

[Chris Ryan]

It's great that this like incredibly evil person who you think has an ideology is just like a craven. He's just greed, you know, he just wants his money.

[Bill Simmons]

It's hard to identify with that theme now 2025. And then the showdown at the end would be the other one. What do you have for most watchable?

[Chris Ryan]

I guess. Is it safe? I mean it's the most iconic scene from the film. I happen to really love everything with Doc in Paris. It's just so evocative and creepy.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like a whole other movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Chen and.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The stroller and the opera. I love all that stuff. But is it safe? Is the rewatchable scene.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the most 1976 thing about this movie? What do you have?

[Chris Ryan]

I have OG Nazis still in the mix.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Walking and talking.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the answer. I also have training for a marathon. Being a rogue thing. Like what are you doing? Trying to run a marathon. People like marathon.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Mar. What's that? It's 26.2 miles. You run.

[Chris Ryan]

Can you smoke while you do that?

[Bill Simmons]

You run every day.

[Chris Ryan]

Nobody's chasing you. You just run.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just. So you just run and then you finish running?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Then what do you do?

[Chris Ryan]

Another low key 76 thing is just New York City, 1976.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The best movie location on the planet. I also have a stealth gay subplot that can't really be addressed because of when they made the movie.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not super addressed in the novel. Like they just acknowledge more addressed. Janie and Cilla are. And that.

[Bill Simmons]

That.

[Chris Ryan]

But like it doesn't. And it certainly impacts like Janeway's betrayal. But yeah, it's never explicit.

[Bill Simmons]

This was actually pretty racy for 76.

[Chris Ryan]

And also like I think one of the first times I was like to my mom, I was like, what's going on? Like, you know, I didn't. Yeah. I was like 10 or whatever. 12.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the most 76 thing about this movie? I also have diamonds being worth 15k a carat. Probably higher now.

[Chris Ryan]

Probably higher. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Creepy. Mid-70s. Everyone's up to something. Movies. Sure. And then my winner, McCarthyism victims as a crucial plot device.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't see this anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Be like if. If one of our relatives was a McCarthyism victim and it would just come up on the rewatchables every once in a while.

[Chris Ryan]

Give it.

[Bill Simmons]

Give it time.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe we can come up with a new McCarthy.

[Bill Simmons]

There might be a new ism. What saves the best. I have a bunch. What do you have?

[Chris Ryan]

First of all, the location shooting in New York City and Paris. There's just. No. This is like the ultimate. Like, you can't do New York and Toronto. Like you can't do.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Like this stuff. I love, love, love Doc's death when he's like, frankly, I don't give a fool. And it's outside. They actually shot that in la?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And they. So it's downtown la. It's like some skyscraper down there. And I love the setting for that. And it's. That's like the peak creepy 70s conspiracy scene with like the red. The fountain through the glass. What else do I have for what stage is the best? It's always awesome to rewatch these conspiracy thrillers when you know the plot. So you can go back and see Elsa the first time it's like, oh, so she was stalking him. You know, like, that stuff's great.

[Bill Simmons]

When a famous star is in a movie and dies way sooner than expected. They call this the Janet Lee.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

From. From Psycho. Psycho. But Scheider being in this movie, you just assume he's going to make it the whole way and then he's dead. 40 minutes in dentistry is torture. It's torture anyway. And this movie really embraced it. But it's a. What stage? The best.

[Chris Ryan]

Did this movie change your relationship to dentistry now?

[Bill Simmons]

I disliked it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Anyway, how about you?

[Chris Ryan]

It makes me think that, like, my physical reaction to Dentistry is just like alarm and I want to fly away. Like, I want to get away from it. And this movie gives it like a horror, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I just don't like people in my mouth, like, tapping at things and scraping at things.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I'll do it.

[Chris Ryan]

Gotta do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Devane saving Babe, but not really. Which I would call the fake out plot swerve. I always like when this happens in the movies where it seems like the guy is being saved or the girl, but then they're just get pumping for information. And then you circle back and it's like, wait, that's where we just let.

[Chris Ryan]

Such a distinctive street that babe runs down to get away.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And you See the graffiti? And when Devane's car pulls past the graffiti again, you're like, no, no. And then he's like, you killed them. Yeah, you killed them. It's also a really good exposition dump because Devane explains the whole diamond courier thing right to Babe. And then it's like, oh, but it doesn't matter because Babe's gonna get tortured.

[Bill Simmons]

Right? I have anyone opening a safety deposit box in a movie I'm not not watching. Doesn't matter what the movie is. It could be freaking rom com on Netflix. My daughter always get running on a highway ramp and doing the jump to the lower highway ramp, which is also no way out. You got me. Every time.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody ever sprains an ankle, breaks a tibia. Somehow the cab always is like, stop.

[Chris Ryan]

For this guy who looks like he's been tortured in his pajamas.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Carver runs the person over. This is a good one. For what? Stage the best when someone's random non fight training comes in handy.

[Chris Ryan]

Marathoning in an action movie where it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, oh, the marathoning. Now it's going to pay off. I'm just going to outrun these guys. Like, I'm in the Boston Marathon.

[Chris Ryan]

They just did that with the amateur.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's a good movie. I like the amateur. I told my dad after. After I told. I. I texted two people after I saw the image were my dad and you. And I told my dad, I'm like, better than a 5o er might be like a 6:30, 7 o' clocker. But he watched it the next day. He was like really good. Not a huge Ramy Mal fan, but I really liked it. Anyway, a couple more Marathon man Use the steady cam.

[Chris Ryan]

Huh?

[Bill Simmons]

It was the third movie they used it. Bound for Glory and Rocky also used it, but it was the first movie that came out that used it. Okay, so we had that with this was released before. Yeah. And then Goldman had a whole thing about how Hoffman objected to having the flashlight next to him. The object. And when his brother shows up and Schlesinger convinced him and Goldman said it was because Hoffman didn't want to seem like he was chicken. Right. And this was a big Goldman thing in all his writings about how stars want to be perceived, which is so interesting. Like they want to be the heroes.

[Chris Ryan]

And even though Babe is getting beaten on and through this entire movie, he's like, no, I don't want him to be a pussy when he's in his apartment.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Meanwhile, it feels like he's half the movie. He feels like a Puss. Last one. William Devane's 1976 and 1977 two year stretch. He's in Family Plot, Hitchcock's last movie. He's in Marathon Man, Bad News Bears two, Breaking Training. One of the great performances is Kelly Lick's dad.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the great, great, great sports dad coach performances. Craig, check it out. And then Rolling Thunder, your movie.

[Chris Ryan]

I love Rolling Thunder.

[Bill Simmons]

Those four out in a row.

[Chris Ryan]

It's incredible. I love Devine.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, he. So I did some research. Cause I was trying to figure out why he wasn't more popular.

[Chris Ryan]

Big stage guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. But also like, he. He was JFK in the Missiles of October TV movie. That was a huge movie with him and Martin Sheen and TV. Like 74. And he got kind of typecast as like the JFK guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Was trying to break out of it. I always thought he was really good. He ended up on like, Knots Landing. I also did a lot of Olivier research. I forgot to mention about his. He was married three times.

[Chris Ryan]

Joan Plowright at the end. Right, right.

[Bill Simmons]

But he was married to the Gone.

[Chris Ryan]

With the Wind lady, Vivian Lee.

[Bill Simmons]

He got divorced because he started having an affair with her. And then they ended up together and ended up doing a whole bunch of plays together. But then, you know, occasionally she just would hook up with another guy that she was in a movie with. And then he might do the same thing with an actress, but then they would get back together.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then she would go off again and have an affair with somebody else. And it's just. Just the way the 30s and 40s and 50s moved where people were like, yeah, I couldn't resist. You have to go fuck him in my trailer. Sorry. And I don't know. I don't know if it works that way.

[Chris Ryan]

It's funny to go back and watch Mad Men and just be like, how soon would the wife just be like, you're fucking out.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm taking half of your money to Don Draper.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That's.

[Bill Simmons]

It just wasn't like that back then. Yeah. So anyway, our guy billed the vein. Great job by him. Would you have for Big Kahuna Burger award, best use of food Drink?

[Chris Ryan]

I got three things. One, the clove oil extract that they rub on the tooth.

[Bill Simmons]

Great.

[Chris Ryan]

Two, truffles on Crute, which is what Doc tells Elsa to get at the restaurant. But honestly, this movie gets the reverse Kahuna. You don't want to eat after seeing this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, because you have a exposed root.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Great shot, Gordo.

[Chris Ryan]

So many.

[Bill Simmons]

I really like the shot of him opening the security deposit box. I also like. They have the. In the water factor or whatever the fuck that is. That wide?

[Chris Ryan]

The waterworks? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a wide shot of them kind of circling each other that I thought was really good. But there's a lot of good stuff in this.

[Chris Ryan]

So I have anything from Doc's murder.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The red steps, the fountain, that stuff. Conrad hall shot this. He's one of my favorite cinematographers. Absolutely amazing. I love the shot when Doc is in Paris and he walks out onto his balcony in Paris, and the cameras goes through another window and extends out and then the Eiffel Towers there. I'm just like, holy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

This is incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Conrad's cooking.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah. And then my favorite might be just for absolute total creep, is when Doc is coming out of the opera and the soccer ball rolls up to him and he's just like. And the woman is like, his. His partner has disappeared. And then just a soccer ball comes up.

[Bill Simmons]

Then he's like, that's like a classic 1976 scene that doesn't even pay off. Yeah. It's just like, why is this here? That would be the conjuring kid. Cudi Pursuit of Happiness award for best needle drop. I think it's the opera with Olivier.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Although the score is just getting dressed.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Like seeing the German newspapers. Good. Like exposition in that scene. It was like, all right. No, this guy's creepy chest. Rockwell Brocklanders award, best character name. Dr. Christian Zell.

[Chris Ryan]

It's up there. His. His flunkies being named Carl and Earhart were pretty good, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. We'll take a break, and then you got a Flex category. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation. It's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2025 Terms and [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If you're identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off terms apply. All right, CR's Choice Flex category. What do you got?

[Chris Ryan]

When would I have died?

[Bill Simmons]

I was wondering if you're going to.

[Chris Ryan]

Do this probably in the bathtub. I probably, like, maybe I can just drown myself. Like, I just don't want to experience this anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I die in the bathroom as well. Yeah, because you can't get out the window.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe cut your wrists with like, your razor or something like that. I know it's morbid, but, like, if you knew on the other side was, is it safe? You're.

[Bill Simmons]

You're. But he doesn't know.

[Chris Ryan]

No. I would also just have a heart attack when the dental tools got on unrevealed.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Dental tools and a German accent in 1977. I just can just jab that in my temple. I have no answers. Just kill me right here. Right here.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I don't know if it's safe just right here. Honestly, I've never. Let me make it X. I'm never gonna love again. After this, you can just take me out.

[Bill Simmons]

Butch's Girlfriend Award. Weak link of the film. Unfortunately for this one, it's the. The girlfriend.

[Chris Ryan]

So you don't like Elsa?

[Bill Simmons]

I just don't. It's the weakest part of the film that she's working for Zell the whole time.

[Chris Ryan]

Soon she's very pleasant.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think she's kind of up to stuff enough.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then I have no idea why we go to the farmhouse. It's such a weird part of the movie. I just don't get it.

[Chris Ryan]

In the book, you find out Elsa's working for Zell after the first meeting in the library. So it's an interesting difference between the novel and the screenplay, where in the novel you're like. The whole time you're like, elsa's bad. Elsa's bad. When Doc figures it out. Yeah, lunch. You're like, oh, interesting. But in the movie it kind of comes out of nowhere when it's like, not only like, yeah, I. I've like been working for Zell this whole time. I think she's good especially to be like, a German who could pass for Swiss speak Some French, that kind of thing.

[Bill Simmons]

She's pretty. I. I don't know what a Swiss accent sounds like, but she sounds German the whole time.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I have no idea why we go to the farmhouse. I just don't understand.

[Chris Ryan]

I think he's supposed to be basically incapacitated in the book. It's like she, she shows up because he's like, go get a car and meet me at this drugstore. And she's like, I got the car. And the guy whose car it is. This neighbor of mine has a. Like a house upstate. We'll go there.

[Bill Simmons]

I get it. It just feels like they wanted to get out of New York City for a couple scenes.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I just would have not done that at all. And I would have spent more time with Roy Shatter because we could talk about. This is. In what stage? The worst. I'll just do it now. But an 8 and a half minute sequence was shot of Doc fighting with some guys who killed a spy colleague. That's a huge part of the book. And Goldman thought it got cut because of the violence because they cut down the. The Is it safe Scene too.

[Chris Ryan]

And the. And the Shider death and the Shatter death.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, because he basically gets disemboweled when he gets. So they, they. They did a lot of stuff based on this one preview screening they had where everybody thought it was too violent. And. And Goldman said, we've Roy Scheider. He's coming off Jaws. This was a big part of the reason why he took this role. And we cut that scene. But now we're adding eight minutes of the farmhouse for no reason at all. And the whole thing is, I'd say it's my one thing that every time I watch this movie, I'm like, God damn it. And then he could just get away. But he's like, come on in. Three evil guys and let's talk this out. It's like, I just don't understand any of it.

[Chris Ryan]

I would also say that especially on repeat viewings. I don't love the flashbacks.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

To his childhood. There's nothing in there other than Babe being there when his dad kills himself that I didn't know from the movie itself and that you can't intuit from the movie itself. And the movie doesn't go into depth about so many things like Janeway and Doc's relationship and all this other stuff. But, like, we get like five cutaways to childhood.

[Bill Simmons]

It feels like they were really trying to stay faithful to the book.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. But that's not really even in the book. I mean, they talk about the dad in the book, but it's not like he's, like, always thinking. I. I don't know. I thought it was like. It's not something that worked for me on this. On this run through Morewood.

[Bill Simmons]

Sage. The worst. Stalking a girl home for the first date.

[Chris Ryan]

76.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It drives me absolutely bonkers that Babe doesn't keep the diamonds and the money. I just hate that in every movie where somebody's like, you know what? Morally, I can't do it. It's like, just take the diamonds. What are you doing? Take. There's just cash. Just grab it. What are you doing? You're too good to put some cash in your pocket.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just get this guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Your apartment is looking good right now, by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

You need some dental work. Maybe the cash can go.

[Chris Ryan]

And you let me take your television.

[Bill Simmons]

Right? You have no apartment, Your family's dead. Maybe take the diamonds. I don't know. And then what? Stage the worst? Just the concept of Nazi criminals in a movie because in 2025, they wouldn't exist.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's age to worst. What else do you have?

[Chris Ryan]

The way Babe's apartment must have smelled because he's coming back from long distance running training.

[Bill Simmons]

Smells like a hockey locker room.

[Chris Ryan]

Wearing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Full sweatsuit of, like, old school Russell Athletic sweats.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Basically wearing Adidas. Old Adidas running shoes. Then he strips down sweating his balls off, and he starts reading history textbooks.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Can you imagine? Not a lot of natural light coming in there.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably some fungus. Yeah. Good call.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest. Take a word.

[Chris Ryan]

We kind of alluded to this earlier. I would rather have Roy Scheider's 1970s than Dustin Hoffman's 1970s. Scheider's highlights for the 70s are Clute, French Connection, 7 Ups, Jaws, Marathon Man, Sorcerer, Jaws 2, all that Jazz.

[Bill Simmons]

Listen, I'm. I'm on Scheider Island. I've been there the whole time.

[Chris Ryan]

Hoffman goes Little Big Man, Papillon, Lenny. All the President's Men, straight time. Kramer versus Kramer. I'll take. I'll take Shider.

[Bill Simmons]

I would take him over Hackman. He just gets. I remember asking Goldman about this once because he loved Scheider. We might even talked about this on one of the other rewatchables. I was like, what? What was he missing? And he's like, I don't know. You know, he didn't age that great. By the time we get to the 80s.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. When he's in 2010. He's pretty. He's looking pretty.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. My guess is there were a lot of cigarettes. So I don't think he aged in a classic way, but I always thought he was amazing. I think he's amazing in Jaws. I don't get it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's like when you. He's like William Holden where you're like. Are you 39 or 60, right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I don't. How old is he in this movie?

[Chris Ryan]

I have no ide.

[Bill Simmons]

No idea. Yeah, my hottest take, it's a two parter. I think if you're making this in 1976, if we could do it over again, it's a better Harrison Ford part. He's young. He hasn't been in Star wars yet. I think he's been in American Graffiti. He's got the size from the book. I would have believed him as a runner. Nobody's better than Harrison Ford. If people are coming after him.

[Craig Horlbeck]

A.

[Bill Simmons]

Little more handsome, I could believe the Elsa thing more. I just think it's. I think it's a better movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So this is pre Raiders, so you wouldn't associate him with being like, oh, this guy's gonna kick Zell's ass. Yeah, it's not like that.

[Bill Simmons]

It's.

[Chris Ryan]

You're right. He would be great.

[Bill Simmons]

Great call. But in 1984, this is an epic Tom Cruise.

[Chris Ryan]

This is TC all the way.

[Bill Simmons]

This is TC. He gets to run.

[Chris Ryan]

He gets to pretend he knows a lot about history.

[Bill Simmons]

He gets to torture. Yeah. He gets to seduce a hot lady. He gets to run again. He gets to run a third time, he gets to freak out.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He probably watched Marathon Man.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, I mean, I'm sure. I'm surprised he doesn't remake it now. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the most cruisiest part. That's not a Cruise movie. Casting. Wh. Ifs. So when Olivia had health problems, they had Richard Widmark in the bullpen, which.

[Chris Ryan]

I kind of like.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Warming up. And then. This is a tough one for both of us. Schlesinger wanted Charlotte Rampling for Elsa. Couldn't get her settled on Martha Keller. Martha Keller.

[Chris Ryan]

Mart.

[Bill Simmons]

Mart Keller.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. According to Robert Evans, the new international Angie Du Mart Keller. You're gonna love it.

[Bill Simmons]

Charlotte Rampling in this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

It would have been illegal. Also, how many times can Charlotte Ramplin double cross our guys? You know, if she did this in Marathon and then did the verdict.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. I. Now I'm happy to go to the. To the upstate New York for eight minutes with Charlotte. Yeah. Let's Go check out that house. Anywhere else we want to go. Pick it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. She's definitely smoking. I could totally believe the double cross in a completely different way. I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

The other person I saw in my research was Julie Christie, which I suppose I'd bring up just because in Super 70s we already.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the double cross for her. I'm not buying as much. Yeah, I have that in recasting couch Director city too. Charlotte Rampling is also just like, no question, best that guy. Well, we have a runner up, Carlos Mendez from the Miami Vice Calderon's revenge episode.

[Chris Ryan]

He plays Melendez when Tubbs hits the.

[Bill Simmons]

Glass at the beginning of the part two.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And. And Philip Michael Thomas is like, come on, Mendez, you gotta talk, sucker. He's doing that whole thing. He's in this movie. He's the guy that Hoffman asked to rob his place.

[Chris Ryan]

It's creepy. It's creep.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's not the winner.

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Because our winner is, of course, Al Neary from the Godfather.

[Chris Ryan]

Richard Bright's in this movie. Richard Bright, hands down.

[Bill Simmons]

So I. I ended up. For some reason, I'd never gone to his IMDb before and didn't realize he was the dad in Beautiful Girls.

[Chris Ryan]

No, he was.

[Bill Simmons]

He was Timothy Hutton's dad in Beautiful Girls.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you serious?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's Al Neri from the Godfather.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, God. I guess I have to go back and watch Beautiful Girls.

[Bill Simmons]

He was the. The dad of Timothy Hutton and David Arquette. I gotta go take a. Those are his three biggest parts. Richard Brait. So he plays al Neri in 1 and 2, by the way.

[Chris Ryan]

And he can play Italian American heavy and German heavy.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody, nobody ever did more with a blank face.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, he's got like two lines across three movies there. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

When. When Michael looks at him at the. At mom's funeral after, he's like pretending he's getting back together with freighter. And he just kind of looks at Al and Al's like, all right, time to go fishing. Gotcha.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I got you. Don't worry. Got it. Dion Waiters award. Schider.

[Chris Ryan]

I think he's in too much. I have Devane in there, but I'm gonna go with Lada Palfy andor as.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's a good one. Craig's Choice Flex category for Craig. What do you got, Craig?

[Craig Horlbeck]

My hot take is that babe was just kind of dumb. He was mugged by two guys in three piece suits and fedoras and just didn't think that was weird.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, true.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He was like, oh, and they're like, oh, like, what did he look like? And they're like, oh, they like two like, you know, hoodlums. And he's like, no, they were two 50 year old men in suits. And he were like, oh, that feels kind of weird.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He also. His brother who was murdered and then, and then he was tortured by a German man named Sell, and his brother was like, hey, I just outed your girlfriend for being a closeted German.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Didn't think anything of that. Just kind of kept plowing right forward with her and, and still thought she was totally innocent up until they got to the house. And then I just, I, I thought it was a weak move that he just couldn't pull the trigger on Zell at the end. What are we doing? He couldn't shoot him.

[Chris Ryan]

In the book, he does guns him down.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Like, I don't understand the character choice of him not shooting.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a weird. I would say there's two things that.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Happen because he shoots people right before it. Up in upstate New York, he shoots Elsa.

[Chris Ryan]

Elsa too. Right. Like, he guns down Elsa. It's much more death wish at the end of the book because he shoots.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Devane in the house and then 20 minutes later he can't shoot Zell.

[Bill Simmons]

It's absurd.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I thought it was very bizarre.

[Bill Simmons]

The ending was rewritten by Robert Town, as C.R. said, because Hoffman apparently didn't like it. Goldman thought it was a piece of it. Drove him crazy. He couldn't believe it. In the novel, Babe leads Zelda, Central park, shoots him multiple times while lecturing him, kills him, throws the diamonds away and is led away by the police.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, I just don't, I don't know the lead up with, with Babe. I mean, he's, he's clearly capable and willing to kill.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Goldman's up in the sky thanking us that we have Craig.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't believe Tibbs got fired.

[Bill Simmons]

He doesn't know what else Tibbs had to do. They made the eastern finals.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Wait, can I add one more question?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

So a lot of the movies in the 70s, 80s, but I think it starts to get better in the 80s. I personally at home have trouble hearing what the people are saying. Do you have trouble, like just the sound mixing?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I think that they do a lot of stuff, especially in these 70s movies where they've ADR stuff where it's like. So you're seeing something that you should not be able to like. Like it'll be a character across the street in a diner through a window, and you can hear it as this. They're whispering in your ear.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

So it's just a style. Altman did this a lot with, like, a lot of his layering of sound that is just unconventional for our modern cinematic appetite.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I am very anti closed captioning. I don't support it, but I had a really hard time just understanding also the accents. I had, like, genuinely very difficult time understanding what they were saying, so I had to turn them on. And I was just wondering if that was the case, like in the theaters in the 70s, if it was muddled because sound mixing wasn't as good or if that's the way it's Translated to our TVs now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I would say sound mixing is too good now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The sound is translated, so it's probably picking up stuff from the print that wasn't even intended to really be heard.

[Chris Ryan]

And I just think that they would do stuff with sound that was just different. Way different.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You guys do things where you're like, oh, like, visually, I'm so far away from this person. Yeah. It almost feels weird that I can hear them mumbling to someone next to them.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah. Because there's some under the breath conversations and really pivotal moments. And I'm like, I don't know what they're saying.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Do you guys watch movies and TV with closed captioning?

[Chris Ryan]

I try not to. I find it's really distracting.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Sometimes the line comes up, the words come up before the person says it.

[Bill Simmons]

I do. I had to use some closed captioning for Seagal when he was trying to do his Italian accent and up for Justice. That was the last time I used it, half asserting research. So in the novel, we said Janeway and Docker Lovers. So Doc's in Paris and he calls Janeway on the phone. He says, janie, I miss you. Get your ass over here. That's kind of the only way they allude to it. It's definitely more subtle in the book. It's a weird one, though. I didn't. Didn't even notice that in the movie until I reread it in the book a few years ago.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And it was like.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, because in the beginning you're like, oh, is he talking to a woman named Janie? You know, like, you're just. Has he got a girlfriend somewhere?

[Bill Simmons]

So the. The marathon runner shown in flashbacks is Adebe Bikila, who won the 1960 Olympic marathon and ran barefoot for Ethiopia. No shoes. Barefoot athletes have really gone out the window in the last 20 years. We had barefoot kickers all the way through, like the 90s. Go Zolerbud. Yeah. We both had Tony Franklin on our team as field goal tricker. Just such a weird era that people are like, you know what? I'm better off without the sneaker playing.

[Chris Ryan]

In the NFL feel.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, like, Craig, that that has to be top five weirdest things for you about sports in the 80s.

[Craig Horlbeck]

What do you mean? There were. There were barefoot kickers in there.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, literally barefooters.

[Chris Ryan]

They wouldn't wear a soccer in what.

[Craig Horlbeck]

What year are we talking about?

[Bill Simmons]

We're talking like 80s. Yeah. The Patriots had Tony Franklin in the. I think in the super bowl season or around. That was out there with just.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Just no shoes or socks. Just barefoot.

[Bill Simmons]

No, they'd have the. The weirdest thing is they'd have the left shoe in the sneaker.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the barefoot on the right.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Because the plant foot. You want with the shoe.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But then you get pure feel. I get it on the inside of the.

[Bill Simmons]

What's funny is you go back and you look at all the field go stats and people are like, 54.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. They're. They're like.

[Bill Simmons]

And they're like, I need to feel this.

[Chris Ryan]

36 yards.

[Craig Horlbeck]

You needed sneakers, broken toes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Left and right.

[Bill Simmons]

Goldman wrote a screenplay called Brothers and I guess kind of a sequel, but not considered one of his better books.

[Chris Ryan]

A sequel to this?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's called Brothers.

[Chris Ryan]

Is it a prequel about Babe and Doc, or what is it?

[Bill Simmons]

It's. I don't really know.

[Chris Ryan]

Unproduced.

[Bill Simmons]

I know that it's not. Not well liked.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Apex Mountain Hoffman. I think it's Kramer versus Kramer.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, I think it's this year. I think It's Marathon and 70. It's 76. It's Marathon man and All the President's Men in one year.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's Kramer versus Kramer. Okay, we'll agree to disagree. Dentistry.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, this.

[Bill Simmons]

And dentistry is a movie device.

[Chris Ryan]

Little Shop of Horrors in this. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Scheider.

[Chris Ryan]

It's around. I mean, I would say Jaws is. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Devane. It's definitely bad news. Bears breaking training. Figuring out how to back Kelly Leak five times the three innings in the Astrodome. Still don't know how he did it. We're definitely doing that on the rewatchables at some point. Kelly Leak. Just keep. Craig, you haven't seen that one, right? Oh, man, you're going to love it. A lot of lineup chicanery in the big game, torture scenes. I think this might be the most famous one.

[Chris Ryan]

If it's not. It's up there. It's top three.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think? What's the most famous torture scene for your generation?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Oh, wow. I. Well, I would say the first thing that comes to mind.

[Bill Simmons]

This is the end.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Casino Royale. Like the getting hit in the balls. The thing that swings.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Casino Royale is a good one.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That one's really.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a really good one. Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I mean, hope is bad.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Reservoir.

[Chris Ryan]

Reservoir Dogs of the year.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. We probably should have picked maybe we should have said non Tarantino. Torture scenes. Olivier. No way. Goldman's in the running because he has this and all the President's men in 76. He wins the Oscar. He has a book thing. His price is now. He's the biggest price of any screenwriter. I think this might be it. Mark Keller.

[Chris Ryan]

I think so. She's in Black Sunday, Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Black Sunday. Bobby Deerfield, Some movie called Fedora. And then. Then that was it for her.

[Chris Ryan]

She was a big star. Schlesinger, Midnight Cowboy. Because it won the Oscar.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm walking here. Jewish revenge movies.

[Chris Ryan]

Bastards.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's Bastards.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's close, though. Evil Nazi characters.

[Chris Ryan]

It's this. It's the guy who melts in Raiders. And it's. It's Chris and Christoph Waltz.

[Bill Simmons]

We also have the good Nazi in Victory. He just wanted some good soccer.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Just needed a break. Break from the horrible war. Just wanted to get.

[Chris Ryan]

We're not so different, you and I.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but do you guys see the bicycle kick? Yeah, I know we're all Nazis, but you have to appreciate the artistry of that. And then diamond district. Scenes in a movie. It's this. Are uncut gems.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's this.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's this.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, this is the easiest cruiser Hanks we've ever had.

[Chris Ryan]

It's cruising a wall.

[Bill Simmons]

This is such a cruise part.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Hanks maybe is the sh. Part, but maybe. Yeah, but not. Not as good as Chris Spielberg or Scorsese.

[Chris Ryan]

This is a hard one because Scorsese is the consummate New York director, but nobody does Jewish revenge like Spielberg.

[Bill Simmons]

Has to be Spielberg. Who does Philip Seymour Hoffman play?

[Chris Ryan]

Janeway? The Devane character.

[Bill Simmons]

I had that as well. Picking it. Why did William Devane tell Babe the entire Zell story as he's just driving around so they'll end up at the same spot? That's a classic the screenwriter wants. Oh, I think it makes information out there.

[Chris Ryan]

It's both. It's an exposition dump. That does make sense. He's basically doing it's a, it's an extended version of like cutting into someone and then giving them clover.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He's like luring him into a false.

[Chris Ryan]

And now he's like, I'm bringing you in. I'm telling you what your brother did. Now you're gonna tell me.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Now you open up.

[Chris Ryan]

Said to you. Yeah, but, yeah, so I get, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Go to Craig, I'm like, so we're teaming up with Portnoy.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Anyways, he reached out to you.

[Bill Simmons]

Why did Zel go to the diamond district first? To find out about the carrot prices. Whatever he was doing before he.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, he was going to get like a, a, a market setting price on a car.

[Bill Simmons]

He's no henchmen left at that point. Well, there aren't any.

[Chris Ryan]

They've gone up to the lake house, they've gone up to the country.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody else? Nobody else.

[Chris Ryan]

When you're one of the most wanted, I think when you've got yourself on like every wanted list in the western world, like your, your circle's pretty tight.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Do you think he disguised himself enough? No, like he just shaved the top of his head. He could have done a little more, I think.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Maybe grow some facial hair, change the glasses, Put a hat on.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe put on a, like a Thurman Munson jersey.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Dress like a Yankee fan that made fun of us swearing. A Yankee hat with a Munson jersey and like blue jeans.

[Chris Ryan]

You can't get a lot of these fucking guys.

[Bill Simmons]

We gotta sign Reggie Jackson. And then why do we have the drive to upstate New York, which we already talked about. Any other nitpicks for you?

[Chris Ryan]

You got them all. Except for when Dustin Hoffman is running to the drugstore to meet Mart. In the background, the marquee movie Marquis playing Jaws breaks the Roy Scheider fantasy reality.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. We cross the streams.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I have one more. I admittedly don't know quite enough about jogging. I've never been a jogger. Hoffman's jogging to me seems a little lurchy. And I didn't feel like he had. I know they said he worked on it every day. He ran four miles.

[Chris Ryan]

But that's crucial. He's running four miles, not a marathon. And I feel like he was a little bit like. Like when the guy who passes him at the reservoir runs by him and then he's like speeding up. It's kind of like, all right, but you're running a marathon. You would have to be like really pacing yourself here.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you like his stride, though?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, it's the 70s. I. I've crushed A lot of prefontaine tape. So I don't know what it really looks like.

[Bill Simmons]

Somebody who's running that much. And this is like, my thing is I. I run every day.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I just want them. I want more efficient. Those guys. Those guys and ladies, they glide.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. He's running like, the way his character is.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, he's running like. I don't know. I just didn't totally work for me. Sequel, prequel. Prestige tv. All black cast are untouchable. I know we said Prestige tv. Can I test drive a Zell prequel?

[Chris Ryan]

You're gonna test drive by casting a fishing hook?

[Bill Simmons]

Just a Zell prequel.

[Chris Ryan]

Not a lot of laughs in that one.

[Bill Simmons]

No. But like him trying to get to.

[Chris Ryan]

South America, getting out of Germany.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So late.

[Chris Ryan]

The protagonist. Or are we with someone hunting Zell? Who's trying to.

[Bill Simmons]

No, we're hunting Zell.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

We're trying to. I find Zell before he gets to Argentina.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. I think you're not.

[Bill Simmons]

Not watching that.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson. No. Byron Mayo, Barney Cousins, Tony Romo, Harley Mays, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview Long or Wilford Brimley in the Firm?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's got to be. I said, is it safe? The English. Do you speak it? Say what again? I dare you. I double dare you. Now is it safe?

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good one.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I think. I think it would be too problematic for. For Wayne to chime in here. God damn, Christian.

[Bill Simmons]

It's so funny you did Sam. Because I was going to do Stephen A. Christian Zell's asking me if it's safe. He's asking me because I'm going to be here a long time after Christian Zell. A long time.

[Chris Ryan]

Is Christian Zell an underachiever?

[Bill Simmons]

Christian Zell? Maybe you should worry about getting those diamonds for asking me if it's safe.

[Chris Ryan]

Life.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

But then we find out Stephen A. Was playing solitaire while Marathon man was on. I can't wait till the. The expose about you comes out where it's just like you're supposed to be watching, you know, having kubuai, but you're actually playing. You're doing fantasy league stuff the entire time.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. Do we know when he was what, Playing solitaire?

[Chris Ryan]

Apparently it was during a meaningful moment in the game. I don't.

[Bill Simmons]

I.

[Chris Ryan]

But I have not been tracking the story very, very closely. I'm sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not there to judge. I'm there studying the OKC body language. Like I'm like a detective looking at a police lineup. I'm just watching, everybody. Chet looks unhappy. What's going on there? Just one Oscar. Who gets it?

[Chris Ryan]

Conrad Hall. Oh, so this is love. This guy shot Butch Cassidy, Cool Hand Luke in Cold Blood, Marathon Man, Road to Perdition, and American Beauty. So his career stretches across from the 50s to the 90s. And I just think that this is one of the most extraordinary portraits of New York City. I mean, it's so incredible what he does.

[Bill Simmons]

I was going to go with Olivier, but you made a good case. Probably unanswerable questions. What kind of dental work was Babe looking at next six months there? And what's the conversation like with the dentist?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, first of all, Babe's got to go under general anesthesia to get dental work done. Like, there's no way he's conscious at all for it, right?

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, he has an exposed nerve for the last hour of this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Gotta get that fixed. I would say pretty soon the movie never really goes into how he eats with the fucked up tooth.

[Chris Ryan]

This would be a good sequel. Babe's dental dream.

[Bill Simmons]

What does he. He go in, like, the dental assistant comes in, he's like, hey, babe, how are you? I'm Jenny.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, hey, how are you?

[Bill Simmons]

So what are you in for today? So there's this evil Nazi.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe you heard of him, the vice angle?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Zell. Yeah, you know, the angel of death. And he was trying to get me to tell him information, and he drilled a hole and now an exposed nerve in my tooth. There's tooth right here. That one that's black.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So I was going to try to get that fixed. I don't know. Probably a fake tooth. Yeah, probably pulling that.

[Chris Ryan]

I would need heroin the next time I went to a dentist's office.

[Bill Simmons]

Other unanswerables, Anything.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I.

[Chris Ryan]

The only one I had was, did this movie invent the trend of British actors playing super villains in Hollywood movies? Oh, so Hopkins, Dude Lecter, Alan Rickman, and Die Hard, like, is there? I was. I. I could probably answer this question, but I didn't see any earlier evidence of it.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a good one. I was trying to think unanswerable. Is Babe's apartment ever rented again? There's a chalk outline in the living room. The bathroom's been demolished. It smells like a hockey locker room.

[Chris Ryan]

When I first moved to New York in 2000, there was a hole in my floor that the landlord was like, I'll get to that. And I was like, as big as this table, he was like, you're just gonna wanna walk around that? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Really?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, how deep was the hole?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it was. It was deep. And it was. It was not like it was. There was something underneath where it wasn't going down into the next apartment. But he was like, I'm gonna fix that before you move in. And didn't.

[Bill Simmons]

Jesus.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then it was too late. I was living there.

[Bill Simmons]

This would be a good podcast. My first New York City apartment.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I got a great one.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Oh, yeah. My New York apartment was fucking terrible. You couldn't even get to the toilet without, like. You had to, like, turn sideways and shimmy past the shower because the walkway was so nar. Yeah, it was, like, one foot wide. And then our whole ceiling was completely sunken in. There was, like, all this leakage, and the ceiling looked like a concave.

[Chris Ryan]

Where was it?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I was in Prospect. Crown Heights.

[Chris Ryan]

Ish. Okay.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

New York's hilarious, because everybody who lives there, they're always like, yeah. The first apartment I lived in, we just had an open sewage pipe that just spewed sewage. It was great. So we lived there for a year. I met my wife there. That's great. He's kind of worked around. What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie? I'm gonna go with the rarely seen. Not the drill. I mean, that's just a weird thing to have. You're like, hey, come. Come into my library. I have the drill for Marathon Man.

[Chris Ryan]

I guess it would be pretty antisocial, but I. The one piece of memorabilia I did want was the wrist knife.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's a really good one.

[Chris Ryan]

Pretty cool party trick. But I would not want any of Babe's running clothes. Yeah, I'm good.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Is there, like, historical accuracy to that? His, like, concealed knife thing? Or is that kind of a just, like a movie trope?

[Chris Ryan]

I feel like the people 6 and 70s were full of knives in cool places.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

So it was. It was a big metal bracelet that was immediately conspicuous. You'd be like, what the is that? And then he had some button that just a knife shot.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it's also, like, in the. It's so incredible in the 70s where they're like, thank you for flying from Paraguay to America or Uruguay to America. Get your own bags.

[Bill Simmons]

We're good, right? Strike. Yeah, true.

[Chris Ryan]

And your Nazi henchmen can meet you at the gate.

[Bill Simmons]

That would have been an Unan. That would have been good for unanswerable questions. Was there actually a baggage Strike.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, also would ts.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, true. Coach Finstock award. Best life lesson. Don't trust the Nazis.

[Chris Ryan]

At the end of if you kill the Nazi dentist, take his diamonds. You. You earned it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Take the diamonds. It's okay. Put them in your pocket. Best double feature choice. You go boys from Brazil and go Olivia on the other side.

[Chris Ryan]

I like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Uncut gems. If you want to go diamond district again.

[Chris Ryan]

Munich.

[Bill Simmons]

Munich's a good one.

[Chris Ryan]

Interesting. Interesting element to this was that.

[Bill Simmons]

Would that be a weird rewatchables choice?

[Chris Ryan]

I. Munich and Lincoln are the two late period Spielberg ones. I was like, I really want to do these.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't like Munich at all when I first saw it. And about 10 years ago, it kind of. Kind of broke me.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Now I'm like Munich.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you ever watch Lincoln?

[Bill Simmons]

You really want to. You want to do this? Do you want me to do this? This summer?

[Chris Ryan]

Daniel Day. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

If the Celtics don't trade Jaylen Brown Before July 1st, I'll watch. I'll watch Lincoln again. I'm really worried they're going to trade Jaylen Brown. I love that guy.

[Chris Ryan]

You're in such a tender place.

[Bill Simmons]

I really am. I want them to trade anybody.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Why can't they make the Eastern finals next year without Tatum?

[Chris Ryan]

It's entirely possible.

[Bill Simmons]

Indiana made the Eastern finals. They have miles turner's two for ten every game. And they've nem hard playing 40 minutes a game. And Obi Toppin plays real.

[Chris Ryan]

Trust me. I think about this every time I watch them, and I'm just like, guess, Guess the process was for nothing, right? Turns out we would have been fine. Just.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, shit, you might. You might be able to take Con cany Nipple with the third pick.

[Chris Ryan]

They're not taking Con Canyle with the third pick. Relax.

[Bill Simmons]

I do like Con Cannipal.

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Who do you want with their pick?

[Chris Ryan]

I. I think you have to take Trey or Ace at third, but I like Edgecomb the most. I just wish we could get down to like five or six and take Edgecomb and get something else.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll talk about it after the podcast. Who won the movie? It's a really tough one.

[Chris Ryan]

I.

[Bill Simmons]

For me, it's Olivia, because I'm gonna.

[Chris Ryan]

Go with Olivier as well, because I.

[Bill Simmons]

Don'T have the entry to modern movies that he made because he had, you.

[Chris Ryan]

Know, he basically incredible baton pass of like, an older style of acting to a new style of acting.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So I think that that's. That's.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's so cool that he's in this and just in general, when somebody parachutes Into a movie that's a super crazy famous act.

[Chris Ryan]

Respected actor and does something like this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a brief. It's a brave performance.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, Craig, what do you got?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Just a wonderful, incredibly suspense thriller. Old school thriller. It's interesting that the. The number one takeaway I had was that I actually kind of didn't know what was going on in this movie for, like, the first whole hour.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Like, I was just kind of genuinely confused.

[Chris Ryan]

In the book itself, you don't know Doc and Scylla, which is his code name, are the same person until Doc dies.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah. I just think that's a symptom of, like, today. They would never do this today. Doc would have probably died. 20 minutes into the movie, he dies. I think 60 minutes in this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And then you get the. The William Devane monologue, like, 70 minutes in, and that's when you start to, like, at least for me, figure out what's going on. Especially me being, you know, so far removed from this era, not really knowing a ton about it. I was. It was. It was just a very unique feeling that. That you don't have anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

There are little clues that you get when you watch it over and over again.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Sure. I'm sure going back now, but in the moment, I'm just trying to, like, take any scene when Zell's brother leaves.

[Chris Ryan]

The bank the first time.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And he passes off the little case, the band Aid case. Doc has that in Paris.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Oh.

[Chris Ryan]

So, like, you're kind of like, start to get clued into kind of sort of what he's doing. But yeah, you're right. Like, you really don't know what's going on until Davine.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And I kind of enjoyed that. I mean, again, it wouldn't work now because if this run Netflix, people would turn it off because they'd be confused. But. But if, you know, you have to, like having to watch this movie and knowing, like, I will finish this no matter what. It's. It's. The payoff is just so much better. Having to build up this, like, you know, this, this, all these things and figure out. Figuring out how to put them together. And then, oh, an hour in, you're like, oh, wait, okay, I'm starting to piece this together and see where things are going. It's much more fulfilling.

[Chris Ryan]

It's also pretty cool because, like, you know, you're going along watching Zell come back to New York, but you're kind of like, I don't really like, what's this Guy capable of. And then when he gets.

[Bill Simmons]

Gets.

[Chris Ryan]

Gets in that room, you're like, oh, my God.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And I. Yeah. I think the Diamond District scene is by far my favorite scene. I think that was, like, incredibly. It just landed so hard.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. It's so disturbing.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I also like that there's another issue with movies. Now. I've never seen the Amateur, but I. If I had to guess, I bet you the villain in the Amateur is some, like, rogue foreign CIA operative. And it's. I always like when movies have real villains from real life that you can actually get behind. And it's not like the faceless, this Top Gun maverick.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's a good call.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he made a key Netflix point. The movie is so complicated in the first hour, people just flip right over to Love Island. They're like, I'm out.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No shot. Yeah, no shot.

[Chris Ryan]

You have to almost have a captive audience.

[Bill Simmons]

Love island, they switch partners. Got to see what happened there. I'm glad you liked it, Craig.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That was great.

[Bill Simmons]

Was written by our guy Goldman. All right, that's it for New York City Month.

[Chris Ryan]

So it is.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I thought we have more.

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

For.

[Bill Simmons]

We have two more left. Yeah, we think.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That'S it for New.

[Bill Simmons]

York City, this installment of New York City Month. We. We think there's a chance next week is the 400th Rewatchables episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Not positive. There's. It gets weird because we had. We did, like, six testers on the BS feed. We did six sports movie kind of hall of famers that were little test cases for rewatchables. But then when we launched feed, we put those on the rewatchables feed. But I think if we're actually talking about true rewatchables and you include the First Heat, too, which we didn't do, I think this might be the 400th official Rewatchables episode next week.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

But we're not celebrating that like an anniversary, because when we get to 400 movies, this was 387.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Including Miami Vice. COD runs Revenge, which was not a. Which is a TV movie, but we're still counting it. So 400. 400 movies will be the one that I think we care about.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Let me know.

[Bill Simmons]

You like mojitos. And we're doing you, me, and Van are doing Miami Vice live this summer.

[Chris Ryan]

Please.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just. It just gets better every year.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't. I can't rewatch it too many times before that. So just let me know, because otherwise, I'll just start watching Miami Vice.

[Bill Simmons]

You'll just be like in a. Andy.

[Chris Ryan]

Will be like, what did you watch this week? And I'll be like, Miami Vice.

[Bill Simmons]

That's it. I should. I show. I told you. I showed Ben the entire stretch from when he takes. What's her name? What's the actress's name?

[Chris Ryan]

Gongley.

[Bill Simmons]

Gong Lee. When he. When he's like, do you want to get a drink? And she's like, I know a place. Do you like mojitos? I'm a fiend for mojitos. Or what do you like to drink? I'm a fiend for mojitos. And then they're just on a speedboat going to Cuba. So I showed Ben, and Ben was just like, what? How far is Cuba for Miami? He was just so confused. It's amazing. All right. At some point. Yeah, that'll be a. That'll be an LA live show, not.

[Chris Ryan]

A Miami live show.

[Bill Simmons]

We have to go to Seattle at some point soon because there's a lot of Sonic stuff going on with them, and they want us to come. They're trying to bring back the Sonics and get the expansion team. They want to. Seattle loves us. We have to go do a live rewatch. The re.

[Chris Ryan]

Singles.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And then Indianapolis, which I had a great time clamoring for rewatchables. At some point.

[Chris Ryan]

We should have saved breaking away for them.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we should have.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Did you go to St. Elmo?

[Bill Simmons]

I did.

[Craig Horlbeck]

How did you. Did you enjoy the shrimp cocktail? Are you a shrimp cocktail fan?

[Bill Simmons]

It's fine.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Well, we're not going to Indianapolis anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

No, they know. It's basically the cocktail sauce is the draw.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it's the horseradish.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like the ton of horseradish in it. Yeah, but it's like, you know, you could do that right here.

[Chris Ryan]

I've never been to Indianapolis.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, fine. I love Indianapolis. All right, next week, the 400th episode. But we're not going to celebrate New York City month. Are you on next week?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, you're on next week.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Are you going to announce the movie or.

[Chris Ryan]

No, tell them yeah. Yeah, They've already seen it.

[Craig Horlbeck]

If people made it 97 minutes in, they deserve it.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. It's. It's Die Hard with a vengeance.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. DH with a voice.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's next week. Dhv. Thanks, guys. Thanks to Craig and thanks to Jack.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And Ronick and Ronnie.