‘Quiz Show’ With Bill Simmons and Brian Koppelman

Summary

The Rewatchables: ‘Quiz Show’ with Bill Simmons & Brian Koppelman (October 21, 2025)

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Overview

Theme & Purpose:
Bill Simmons and guest Brian Koppelman (screenwriter/producer of “Rounders” and “Billions”) convene to dissect Robert Redford’s 1994 film Quiz Show—the final entry of Rewatchables’ "Redford Month." Anchored in one of the most sensational television scandals of the 1950s, the episode explores Quiz Show’s significance as both a sharply written character drama and a timeless commentary on media, class, and the corruption of American innocence. Through personal reflections, industry anecdotes, and rigorous scene-by-scene breakdowns, Simmons and Koppelman reaffirm Quiz Show’s status as one of the best screenplays of the last 30 years—while discussing performance, context, and the film’s lingering resonance.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Quiz Show’s Place in Movie History

• Contextualized by 1994’s Movie Year: Released in a two-week span with Pulp Fiction and Shawshank Redemption, Quiz Show was overshadowed in the awards race (03:08).
• Redford’s Passion Project: Redford’s personal connection—he watched the scandal unfold live—drew him to telling this story ("The scandal was really the first in a series of scandals that have left us numbed" – Redford quote, 16:25).

2. The Movie’s Enduring Themes

• Media Manipulation: The film anticipates modern anxieties around reality TV, manipulation, and public trust ("We used to believe what was on TV... but maybe I shouldn’t trust everything" – Simmons, 05:32).
• Class & Outcasts: The dichotomy between Van Doren’s patrician old money world and Herb Stempel’s striving outsider is explored as a metaphor for American ambition and exclusion (11:22).
• Innocence Lost: Koppelman describes it as a “human movie” about “deeply flawed people trying to get outside their own limitations” (06:33).

3. Screenwriting "Clinic"

• Paul Attanasio’s Script: Both hosts rave about the “crispness” and economy of the script—"not a scene wasted," "a clinic on how to write a two-hour movie about something that happened 40 years earlier" (09:05).
• Notable Attanasio Run: Attanasio’s run also included Donnie Brasco, Disclosure, and Homicide (07:15).

4. Performances & Casting

• Ralph Fiennes as Van Doren: Described as acting primarily “in the eyes” and "one of the absolute greatest" for capturing inner conflict (18:58).
• Rob Morrow as Dick Goodwin: Both praise Morrow’s intelligence and presence but ponder why his career didn’t launch into stardom (25:15, 59:54).
• John Turturro as Herb Stempel: Turturro’s committed, “self-destructive” performance is acclaimed, but Simmons says it "hurts the rewatchability a bit" because “Stempel’s not a fun hang” (19:36).
• Incredible Supporting Cast: Through Bonnie Timmerman's casting, the movie lands “deep bench” character actors—David Paymer, Hank Azaria, Christopher McDonald, Scorsese, and Barry Levinson (22:50).

5. Authenticity, Inaccuracy & Oscar Fortunes

• Artistic Liberties: The film compresses timelines, emphasizes Goodwin’s role, and fictionalizes some events for drama ("somewhere between when they do 'based on a true story,' but clearly liberties taken" – 17:32, 57:58).
• Oscar Discussion: Quiz Show lost Best Picture to Forrest Gump—with Koppelman and Simmons sure the film would have dominated in a less stacked year (61:45).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

On TV’s Corrupting Power

“I thought we were gonna get television. The truth is television is gonna get us.”
— Bill Simmons (01:45)

On Innocence and Character

“Everyone wants to think the best of you, Charlie... people were still trying to think the best of each other and that it was possible.”
— Brian Koppelman (06:33)

On Paul Attanasio’s Script

“It’s just so crisp... not a scene wasted. It’s kind of a clinic on how to write a two-hour movie about something that happened 40 years earlier.”
— Bill Simmons (09:05)

On Class

“There’s shades of Mr. Ripley in this—the kind of semi-outsider coming into the world of class. The movie does class so well.”
— Bill Simmons (11:24)

On Fiennes as Van Doren

“There’s so much going on in his eyes... he really acts where the camera picks up so much.”
— Brian Koppelman (18:58)

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Scene-by-Scene Breakdown

(Key Scenes and Highlights with Timestamps)

• [09:05–11:54] — Class and Outsiderness: Discussion on how Van Doren and Goodwin represent different sides of American society.
• [14:30] — The Chocolate Cake Scene: “That’s one of my favorite movie scenes ever... every line is mind-boggling” (Koppelman).
• [22:43] — Barry Levinson & Scorsese’s Cameos: Applauded for how “director gods” understood the world they’re acting in.
• [39:02] — The ‘What Would You Do?’ Moment: Both hosts discuss the moral dilemma at the heart of the film.
• [56:44] — Geritol Rabbit Hole: Simmons investigates the fate of the once-iconic tonic, highlighting how products and scandals fade.

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Running Awards & Fun Categories

Most Rewatchable Scene

• Contenders:
  • The initial game show scenes (35:45)
  • Van Doren v. Stempel showdown (“I love movies with a ‘what would you do’ moment”—Simmons, 37:56)
  • Chocolate cake father-son scene (14:30, 40:09)
  • The Van Doren confession (40:43)
• Winner(s): The "almost friends" Goodwin/Van Doren scenes and the father-son Connecticut scenes (41:23, 42:14)

Best Use of Food or Drink

• Chocolate Cake ("Big Kahuna Burger" award, 40:09), with a special shout to Geritol’s odd pop culture legacy.

What’s Aged the Best

• The subtle portrayal of class and father-son dynamics (47:15)
• The legacy of rigged reality TV—“It’s all rigged now. Nobody would care now” (47:21)

What’s Aged the Worst

• Rob Morrow’s Boston accent (55:28)
• The diminished importance of products like Geritol (55:28–56:51)
• Factual inaccuracies and the Hollywoodization of historical events (57:58)

Best “That Guy” Award

• Hank Azaria (at the time), David Pamer, and especially Barry Levinson for cameo impact (65:12–67:36)

Hottest Take Award

• If Quiz Show had been released a year later, “it wins Best Picture and Best Director” (61:45)

Half-Assed Internet Research

• Production trivia, including Paul Scofield’s recruitment from a silent retreat (29:09), and recasting what-ifs (62:52)

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Notable “Rewatchables” Segments

• CR’s “Hottest Take”: Rob Morrow should have become a major movie star (59:53)
• Legacy & Double Feature: "Donnie Brasco" recommended as a thematically linked companion (88:20)
• Coach Finstock Life Lesson: “Speculation in our society has a way of becoming fact” (88:09)
• Best Line on Innocence: Roger Ebert’s reflection on innocence and tempting versus being tempted (32:59)

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Final Thoughts, Resonance & Reflection

• The episode closes with praise for Quiz Show’s timelessness: its themes—media trust, class, TV’s influence—are more relevant in 2025 than ever (90:29).
• Koppelman calls Paul Attanasio’s script a “truly rare accomplishment,” putting him in a league with Goldman, Frank, and Gilroy (91:53).
• The film is characterized as “a human movie about deeply flawed people,” whose characters are “trying to get outside their own limitations” (06:33).

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Essential Quotes & Timestamps

• On TV’s corrupting nature (01:45):
  “The truth is television is gonna get us.”
• On innocence & ideals (06:33):
  “Everyone wants to think the best of you, Charlie. ...It was possible... it’s such a human movie.”
• On class and seduction (11:09):
  “He goes to the perfect, perfect rich people, 1950s outdoor party... this is the life I’ve always dreamed of being a part [of].”
• On the screenplay (09:05):
  “It’s just so crisp. ...Not a scene wasted. ...A clinic on how to write a two-hour movie about something that happened 40 years earlier.”
• On Attanasio’s legacy (91:53):
  “He is one of the titans of screenwriting... this movie and Brasco together are really a very rare accomplishment.”

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For Further Viewing/Reading

• Double Feature Suggestion:
  “Donnie Brasco”—for Attanasio’s parallel story of the enticements of insider status.
• Roger Ebert’s Review:
  Described as “one of the best reviews I’ve read from him”—a deep thematic analysis (32:59).
• Charles Van Doren’s 2008 New Yorker Article:
  Essential for anyone wanting the “real story” behind the movie (58:49).

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Conclusion

Quiz Show stands as a taut, brilliant examination of integrity, privilege, and manipulation—one that looks backward at the creation of TV’s spell and forward at our own susceptibility. Simmons and Koppelman’s infectious admiration for the film’s craft, themes, and performances makes this Rewatchables episode a must-listen for movie lovers and media skeptics alike.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Kathryn Bigelow, the Oscar winning director of the Hurt Locker and Zero Dark Thirty, is back with A House of Dynamite, a cinematic, visceral thriller about America's race to respond to an anonymous missile launch. Under the pressure of a ticking clock, the film's characters are called to make impossible decisions with implications for all of civilization, while at the same time confronting their own emotions and humanity. A House of Dynamite on Netflix October 24th. The Rewatchables brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. Brian Koppelman pops on from time to time on the Rewatchables. We usually do movies that came out at least 30 years ago, like rollerball, which is 50 years ago. Quiz show is a movie that you were texting me forever. We have to do this. When are we doing this? It's combination like guilt trip slash, almost like an agent trying to, trying to. We got to talk. We got to talk about the next deal. Like, just like there was a real urgency. And then finally Red for Month happened.

[Brian Koppelman]

It's true. Well, every time I would think, because people would always ask me, like, what are my most rewatched movies? And, and this movie, after the movies that are the obviously most watched. The Godfather, Goodfellas. Right. This is my most watched film after the, after the batch of movies that my whole Stripes, Princess Bride, after the core movies that formed who we are.

[Bill Simmons]

The.

[Brian Koppelman]

This is the next most, for me personally, ne the most rewatched movie. So that's why I've always been like, well, if we're, you know, I've done like eight or nine. I think that I've done this nine times with you. And this is my most rewatched movie other than those. So that's why I always brought it up. And then, yeah, when Redford died, it's like, I mean, we got to do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Quiz show, last movie of Redford month coming up next. This episode of the Rewatchables is presented by Paramount Plus. Around here, we love talking about rewatchable movies almost as much as we love watching them. Paramount plus has movies, a mountain of them. New movies and also the classics that we keep coming back to. Almost Famous Gladiator, Top Gun, the Naked Gun, that mall, whatever. Whether you want to relive your favorite moments or catch the latest blockbusters or dive into some old 90210, there's a mountain of movies to discover on Paramount. Start streaming today. Koppelman. I thought we were gonna get television. The truth is television is gonna get us. Is this true? Let's start there because it's such a great quote. I think it's true.

[Brian Koppelman]

I mean, I think if, I mean, you want to jump to. I mean, if you want to jump right to what from the movie is sort of over time been. The truest thing is that rigged reality shows can change the world and TV.

[Bill Simmons]

And what we perceive we're seeing from TV and how TV can shape society. And it has gone in a whole bunch of ways the last 30 years. This movie came out in 1994. September, September 10, Pulp Fiction. September 14, Quiz Show. September 24, Shawshank. Those three movies in 14 days. And Quiz show gets a little lost in the awards thing because this turns into Forrest Gump versus Shawshank versus Pulp Fiction. It was an amazing movie year. But remember when we used to just have awesome movies coming out every week? That was great.

[Brian Koppelman]

I'm sure, as you do. I actually remember the theater for each of the movies. You just said, oh, yeah, I truly remember the experience of seeing Pulp Fiction, obviously, Quiz show and Shawshank. So, yeah, that was an incred mind boggling. That was just a month and a half at the movies or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

The month and a half is two weeks. I remember Pulp Fiction, I remember Shawshank, and sadly, I remember Quiz show being just completely upset, angry and appalled by Rob Morrow's Boston accent. So it was those, those three things. And by the way, not the last time Rob Morrow's Boston accent is gonna come up in this podcast. But yeah, it was such a great movie. And yet, you know, I saw it in Boston and I think I saw it with my dad and we're leaving. Like, what the fuck was that accent? Why can't people get the Boston accents? This is the peak of that.

[Brian Koppelman]

Well, just a couple years later, Matt and Ben fixed everything for you. And then.

[Bill Simmons]

They sure did.

[Brian Koppelman]

David O. Russell and Wahlberg, everybody fixed it for you. You know what I mean? Right afterwards, all those movies fixed things for you. But I'll say, having just. I was only, you know, I got out of Tufts, what, six years before this movie came out. I was still pretty familiar. I'm quite familiar with Ruggeluk. I was still pretty familiar with Boston accents. And yes, Morrow got such. First of all, I love Rob Morrow. I think he's incredible in the movie, but. And I feel like he was unfairly maligned. There are a lot of crappy. There are a lot of Boston accents that maybe aren't exactly what you'd want to hear, but I think the people weren't native Bostonians it didn't drive us crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

No, because there was the TV movie version of the Boston accent, which was like this weird Kennedy. Anyway, we don't need to spend talk.

[Brian Koppelman]

So you're a Connecticut. I mean, you're a Connecticut guy.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a freaking Massachusetts guy. Screw off. This scandal was ground zero for TV manipulating viewers. Big bad corporations just doing the wrong thing. The cult of celebrity and a loss of American 1950s, I would say, in innocence and idealism and bigger institutions. It wasn't just a show. We had. We had sports scandals. Right. We had a massive college basketball scandal. We had all the McCarthy stuff going on. It just felt like we came out of World War II. Oh, my God, we're doing so great. Halverstam's book is fantastic about this, which I haven't read in a while. But the 50s was really fun and really hit. A lot of this has a quiz show chapter in it, about 21. But this is right as things are turning like people. Oh, maybe it's not all hunky dory. Maybe I shouldn't trust everything. And this show hits right in the vortex of that.

[Brian Koppelman]

It really does. And I think at the beginning of this, I do wanna say I'm so really grateful to talk about this movie because I do think what you said is so great. And I really hadn't thought about why the movie got lost between those other two films. And of course, Shawshank was a slow burn and became considered the greatest movie ever. We both had read this short story and loved it. And I was fully ready for Shawshank and saw it in the theater and loved it. But I do love talking about this film because it's all the things you said. And yet it's not a downer when you're watching it. It's everything you just said. But the movie also captures that feeling of innocence that was lost. It captures. What does he say? Everyone wants the best for you, Charlie. Everyone wants to think the best of you. That idea that people were still trying to think the best of each other and that it was possible is like at the heart of it. It's like such a human movie. And I'm gonna say, if you had a corny meter, like I'm at risk of it and I apologize to everybody, but this movie just makes me feel so good because it's like deeply flawed people trying to get outside of their own. Like we all are just trying to get outside of their own limitations and failing or maybe succeeding a little bit or having a moment of grace and Also Atanacio wrote one of the greatest. And talk about a heater run. I mean the guy had this. And Donnie Brasco and Disclosure and Homicide. The guy just was on this unbelievable screenwriter's run. And I think Quiz show is like one of the greatest screenplays of the, you know, since 19, whatever, 90 to now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I was gonna ask you that because you've spent half of your life probably in final draft documents with you and Levine just staring at stuff and half writt scenes and this is like a revered screenplay. And I was watching, I watched the movie twice to try. First time I watched it just cuz I hadn't seen it a few years like the second time I was really watching it how they constructed it in the scenes and the dialogue and everything. So I had in the back of my head and it's just, it's just so crisp. There's not like that. I don't feel like there's a scene wasted. It's not a slow movie. There's a pace to it. Every scene and moment has a purpose. All the transitions, the montage comes in the perfect place. It just, it's kind of a clinic on how to write a two hour movie about something that happened 40 years earlier. You know what I mean?

[Brian Koppelman]

It really is. And he found a way to show you these kind of people who don't even really exist anymore, like the family. Because he puts it through the eyes of this guy who was like bootstrapping it. Right. I mean, you know, we average. You've lived a version of this. You went into this industry. I mean I, I, I have to think you could relate in some ways to Goodwin in that. Not Nat like because you went into this industry that wanted to keep you out.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Brian Koppelman]

And no, seriously dude. Right. You were a kid who was at this school. Like you'd gotten there. Yeah. You didn't grow up with nothing. But you didn't grow up like a lot of the other people who got into the media landscape. Right. And, and like you had an idea like Dick Goodwin does about like. Well I think that I can, I don't know, let's get in rooms with these people and see if I know what I'm doing and see if my way is right and see if I can be smarter than them and outthink them. And like. And I know the rooms that you were in and I know the condescending way people spoke to you and like talked about you. And to me like the brilliance of this movie is you get Dick Goodwin and he's not like he's smart as hell, but he's rough around the edges. And also, he's not sure he's good enough. Like, he thinks they're better than him. And then it's heartbreaking for him to realize in a way, oh, oh, there are people. Like, we're all just people. And it's kind of amazing. And that's what the screen. That's why the screenplay's so great, because the screenplay just takes you on that ride till Mira Sorvino looks at him and is like, they're no better than you. And it's. You're almost screaming it at the screen at the same time that she is. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Well. And he's seduced by the whole life, too. They do a really good job of get sucked in. He goes to the perfect, perfect rich people, 1950s outdoor party with corn and all, lobster, all the perfect rich people food. And then they're gonna take a little nice little boat out. Little boat trip. Hey, can you get the ma. And it's just like, oh, this is the life that I've always dreamed of being a part.

[Brian Koppelman]

And of course, Charlie's like, get the mast. You know, And. And. And you could see that Dick barely knows what the mast is. Like, he's read about it, probably. You're at Harvard. He probably, like, got on a sailboat once, or he doesn't know what he's doing. And it's such a little moment, but it's perfect, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

I love that you brought that moment.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's. It's a little like, there's shades of Mr. Ripley in this, where that. The kind of semi outsider coming into this world of class. The movie does class so well. Like, Van Doren is clearly from, you know, top, top, top of the line, where, like, prestige wasn't just about money back then. It was about, like, this guy's a professor. This is a literate society. This is. People knew who Charles Van Doren was because his dad was just, like, a brilliant guy. Like, we don't. We don't really have that anymore.

[Brian Koppelman]

Well, these are the guys. Like, remember that? What's the De Niro movie about? The beginning of the CIA. You know, it was that. That Matt. Matt's in it, and De Niro directed it.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm Blanken. The informant, maybe.

[Brian Koppelman]

No, it came out right around when the Departed. Like, Matt made both movies.

[Craig]

Like Good Shepherd.

[Bill Simmons]

Good Shepherd.

[Brian Koppelman]

That's what it is.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

So, like, you know, these are the guys who started the CIA, and they didn't want to let Anybody else in? Right. They don't want to let Catholics in. Forget Jews and Italians. Like, they don't want to let Catholics in. And this is the same kind of closed society of people who knew best and know the way things are supposed to be. And oh, we don't even have a television. We're not gonna watch and we're gonna quote Shakespeare at each other and.

[Bill Simmons]

And they're always at big parties where they're making jokes about Eisenhower's dead. How could they tell?

[Brian Koppelman]

Like, oh, I guess there was this famous figure named. It's a great moment screenwriting wise. Right. There's this famous figure, Edmund Wilson, but everyone in that world calls him Bunny. And Rob Morrow's talking to his wife and he goes, yeah, they're all Thurba this and Bunny Wilson that. And she goes, bunny. And he goes, everyone calls him that. And the wife goes, that doesn't mean that you should.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Brian Koppelman]

And it's great. Cause he's getting seduced by being around this power and this sort of sense of class and it's great. And best movies about class. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You just come to your dad's house. There's just chocolate cake in the fridge. Yeah, I'll just have a nice slice of chocolate cake.

[Brian Koppelman]

Well, what did you say? He goes, the old bird's getting the hang of it. About the cake. I think the old bird's getting the hang of it.

[Bill Simmons]

Unbelievable.

[Brian Koppelman]

I'm sorry, I'm so glad you brought that up. There is this moment in it that speaks to it again. It's like Redford's brilliance and Paul Atanasio when he's like, the dad is played by this incredible actor, Paul Schofield. And when Charlie comes up in the middle of the night with the chocolate cake, that's one of my favorite movie scenes ever. Like, every line in it is just mind boggling. And both performances by Ralph Fiennes and Paul Schofield's incredible. But he goes, you know, I'm gonna try some of that. The dad. And then he goes over to that super old fashioned silverware holder and he lifts that thing up and it's like, they don't have a drawer. Like, nothing so crass as keeping their silverware in a drawer like we do. Or pla. Like in the middle of the night. Tell me you're not just grabbing a plastic. Like, I've been to your house. You could go grab a plastic fork if you were at my apartment. Like, Amy would be like, don't give him the plastic, please. But it's just Like a regular. It's just like a fork. Like, he's going to the thing and lifting up, like.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you left out there's a painting of the dad behind him on the table, which is like the ultimate rich guy thing. Here's a painting of me.

[Brian Koppelman]

Awesome, Bill. Yes. And. But every single. Yes, it's perfect. The production is perfect. But just this idea, and they don't comment on it. And I think you're so tempted. I think also, like, screenwriting wise and also directing wise, they don't cut to a little insert of the fork. He gets up and he goes over and he lifts that thing up. But if you just think about it for a second, that Connecticut house that was passed down, that silverware was passed down four generations. That thing has been passed from rich waspy family member to rich, powerful waspy family member.

[Bill Simmons]

John Quincy Adams might have given them the silver. Yeah. You just say you had no idea.

[Brian Koppelman]

It was just passed down the line because, you know, this was before there was a Catholic president.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. When they called the Gentiles and the Jews were like, things you. You would say. They were like these two groups. Redford said Redford wanted to do this movie because he said, quote, watching Van Dorn and the other contestants was irresistible because he watched Quiz show when it happened. Awesome. He said the actor in me looked at the show and felt like I was watching other actors. It was too much to believe. But at the same time, I never doubted the show. I haven't had. I hadn't had evidence television could trick us. As we know now, there's little morality there. Redford hated TV then. He said the scandal was really the first in a series of scandals that have left us numbed, unsure of what or who to believe. So this was, like, a major passion project for him. He's watching this show. He's a wannabe actor in New York City. The thing happens, and he's like, man, I really didn't trust that I was watching something authentic there. And then it wasn't authentic. And he just kind of followed it away. And then when he wanted to direct a movie, which at this point, he'd done A River Runs through it, he'd done ordinary people in 1980. Could probably have picked any project he wants. Anyone signing up for a Redford movie. There's people in this movie that are real actors that are in it for, like, Griffin Dunn's in this for, like, a minute. He's a real actor. Yeah. Busfield's, like, barely in it, and Busfield's hot At that point, it's the early 90s.

[Brian Koppelman]

I asked him, I was like, how did Redford call in a favor to Bus? I was like, how did you end up in the movie? He goes, yeah, Redford called in a million favors. He got all, all these incredible guys.

[Bill Simmons]

They're all, we didn't say no to him. This is like when, when we did Sneakers last week. Redford commits to sneakers. There were no casting what ifs. We had no category. Because once he was in, everybody's like, I'm in. So whoever they wanted, they just got their.

[Brian Koppelman]

I think everyone shows up. I mean, and we'll talk about when you go through and ask that guy. I mean, but you got a. That guy in every scene. You got some incredible actor and, you know, two of the greatest directors of the modern era are playing parts in it. It's everywhere you turn. There are these unbelievable performances.

[Bill Simmons]

So the screenplay adapted. Richard Goodwin, Dick Goodman, US Congressional lawyer, played by Rob Morrow, who investigated the accusations. There's a lot of, lot of stuff after the fact about and well, guy, I have a section for this, like some of the inaccuracies. This is somewhere between when they do the based on a true story and it's like based on a true story of Patrick Ewing, but they win the 1994 finals. Technically, it's based on a true story. He played in the 1994 finals. You could just say John Stark's shot went in. It's based on a true story. I don't mean to do this to you, but they definitely took some liberties.

[Brian Koppelman]

That's so mean. I mean, John Starks did get that dunk, though. He dunked over, you know he did.

[Bill Simmons]

He did get the dunk. And then Ray Fines, who does Schindler's List the year before quiz show this year, and then two years later is an English Patient. So he's in three of three Oscar nominated films, two of which won best picture. And this is all in the span of four years. And this, weirdly, was his peak, like his best actor peak. But it seemed like in the mid-90s, it really seemed like he was going to be a major, major, major, major start.

[Brian Koppelman]

Never quite happened. Always so great though, man. I mean.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I know.

[Brian Koppelman]

I don't know how great. The guy's just always incredible, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I feel like he's like one of those athletes who just kind of slid through the cracks, putting up huge seasons, huge seasons. You don't really know what happened.

[Brian Koppelman]

I think the guy's so great. I think he's one of the most fascinating people to watch. And there's so much going on in his eyes. You know, he really acts where the camera picks up so much stuff happening. I mean, he's one of the absolute greatest.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you can see his brain. Handsome guy. And you can kind of see his brain calculating stuff, which you need in this because this is a guy who's presenting himself as a certain way, but he's also being torn up inside because he's living this lie.

[Brian Koppelman]

I mean, and, you know, you didn't mention, or much. You didn't mention Turturro, the other lead of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

He's gonna go through it.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah, keep going.

[Bill Simmons]

Turturro and then Rob Morrow. Those are basically the three leads. Turturro, I have a lot of thoughts on this performance. It's. He gains £25. He's got a weird tooth. He's incredibly annoying. And I actually think in a weird way, it hurts the rewatch ability of this movie just a tiny bit because Herb Stempel, not a fun hang, and he's in a lot of scenes. But I think Turturro had to play him that way.

[Brian Koppelman]

It's funny. I think Atanazio's cursed twice because Brasco's like the. You can't find a more rewatchable movie, but you gotta fast forward the Anne Heche scenes. Rest in peace.

[Bill Simmons]

Of course.

[Brian Koppelman]

One of the other greatest screenplays ever made, Right. Dottie Blasco. Perfect. By the same writer. I think this, though. I think that Herbie's scenes are saved because he's always in a scene. Like, I love how hard Turreturo commits. Right. And if you think about Barton Fink and if you think about Lebowski, he always commits that hard. He's absolutely. Look, everywhere you turn in this movie, there is somebody who is an A world class. One of the greatest actors of our time. Like, don't forget, if you list the.

[Bill Simmons]

Best, you're going to list 90s people. You're not going to mention Knish.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yes. I mean, yes, obviously he's Joey Knish. And that life changed my personal life, but I don't think the audience cares as much about that.

[Bill Simmons]

I care, all right?

[Brian Koppelman]

I. The day that he showed up, it was beyond our wildest dreams that John Turturro was sitting there looking like the real Joel Bagels, you know? Amazing. Yeah, he was incredible. He's probably the guy I got. I'll say this. He's the person I probably got to know the least on that movie. He only was six days. He Was as lovely as could be. But I just. He was so in it and those days were so long that there wasn't a lot of hanging. Like I didn't hang with him. We were together making the movie. But I don't feel like I ever got to know Turturro. He was there. He was Knish, he was great. He said all the words. He was perfect. But I think he's amazing at Stempel in terms of you believe. I think it's gotta be hard, Bill, to create this in a way where you believe this guy would be that self destructive. Because Herbie Stempel could have lived a life and never exposed this thing. The Herbie Stempel of the movie. So the guy had to push it in a way so you would understand that he'd really do this.

[Bill Simmons]

But you know immediately the guy's a huge loser when he's. He can't even let Jack Bear get through the introduction. He just repeatedly interrupting him. Yeah, my relatives really like Jared well too. It's just going.

[Brian Koppelman]

My blood isn't tired anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's. I was almost thinking, so Bonnie Timmerman cast this whole over and over again pops up in movies and TV shows like this that are really well cast. I almost. I gotta talk to Chris Ryan about whether we need a great Ibani Award for movies that are like really well cast. But this movie has Turturro, David Pamer like during the. During the David Pamer 90s heater where he's just in a lot of stuff.

[Brian Koppelman]

How about that? In a way, it's a David Pamer, Hank Azaria buddy movie. It's.

[Bill Simmons]

That's like a separate movie. It's over on the side.

[Brian Koppelman]

They're incredible, those guys. Their back and forth Abbott and Costello thing is like mind boggling.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Christopher McDonald's Mir Sorvino early. She's not really Mira Sorvino yet, but she's Rob Moro's wife. Griffin Dunn's in this. Ileana Douglas. And then the coup of having just Scorsese and Barry Levinson amazing as actors. And both of them are like about at the peak of their powers at this point. Right. This is Scorsese four years after Goodfellas. He can do whatever he wants at this point. And then. And Levinson, this is. He was in a producing, directing. He was even a producer in this. He took his name off because they had so many producers. His company's involved, but he was doing whatever he wanted. And both of those guys are good actors. They're really good as like Considering their directors, they're actually good character actors.

[Brian Koppelman]

They're both excellent in the movie. I mean, if you don't know Barry Levin. So like everyone knows it's Marty. Like I don't know if everyone knows that that's Barry Levinson, you know, the audience. And he just feels like he's Dave Garraway. But Scorsese, when that scene with Scorsese and Rob is really like mind boggling acting where you. Redford's genius was he cast a guy who knows what it's like to have all the answers and be super powerful and godlike. And when Scorsese looks at him and goes, I sell Geritol, you think I don't know. Know how insulting that would be? That's even more insulting. And you never question it. And when Morrow says, imagine if they could see you. It's one of the greatest moments, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

So Morrow, Rob Morrow, I think is really good in this movie. The accent, it is what it is. But he's doing a lot of really good young guy stuff in this where he's kind of the right age. He's like, he's probably early 30s in real life, but seems like he's late 20s. But the way he's kind of staring people down and like he's got a presence to him, but definitely felt like he could hang with all these people. And it's weird because he's red hot from Northern Exposure at this point, which was a real like critically acclaimed and beloved. It wasn't a massive hit like er, but it was a really well known show. Him and Janine Turner were like real stars coming out of it. And he had a lot of different movie possibilities. He took this one. His movie career never really took off. He ended up. I noticed that he was in Billions way later as. Yeah, I'd forgotten.

[Brian Koppelman]

He started as like an attorney. He was an Attorney General and then a judge and. And yeah, we put him in that. We put him in. He plays Eddie Q and super pumped also. He's, you know, Rob is a. I think he's a great actor and I think he. I don't really understand why he didn't become a big movie star off this movie. Other than that the movie is so beloved by people who love movies. But maybe it wasn't galvanizing in that way. But he did. It's funny, he was number one on the call sheet for that show. Numbers. And it did run for 100 episodes. He's had a. And then there was a show on Showtime where he was Number one also on the call sheet. Like, he's had a great career, but even I think he would say it could have been more. In a way I've talked about.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I must wonder what he turned down.

[Brian Koppelman]

I.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, he probably turned down some really good stuff. Right.

[Brian Koppelman]

When you gave me a podcast and, you know, that I did for 10 years. But this was back in the days when we did it together. I had Morrow on. He was, like, on in the first year I did the podcast, and I asked him these questions, and I think he felt like he made some mistake. Like, I think he felt like there were just some things that kind of went slightly sideways. But I gotta tell you, he was so great on Billions. I mean, he was in many episodes, you know, and was. Every time he'd play a scene, the other actors, like, if it was Giamatti would come up and be like, I'm so happy to have Rob Morrow here. He's so great. Like, everyone loved working with him, and I would work with that guy in a heartbeat. I feel like. I feel like he's an excellent actor and a great dude, and I'm always happy to see him, you know? And I think he's so good in this movie because you believe he's smart as Dick Goodwin, like Ralph Fiennes is, obviously, you look at that guy and you go, well, that's a genius. And it's hard to have somebody stand in there who you feel like can outplay him in the chess match. And Morrow's, to me, believable. Do you find him? I find him very believable in terms of his, like, figuring this thing out.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, it's funny because, see, it's a great part. And I think, like, five years later, Damon and Norton are probably in the final two trying to get it right. And then you go, like, maybe three years later, Leo's trying to get it. And it's just one of Those, like, age 28 to 33American actor parts that you're just like, I need this part. This is a great part. I gotta get it. Damon would have been great.

[Brian Koppelman]

You're so right. Edward and Matt, either of those guys would have been unreal in that part. Yeah, you're so right.

[Bill Simmons]

Speaking of unreal, Paul Schofield, triple crown runner, one of the great Shakespeare actors of all time, apparently before my time. And. And it's funny, he gets nominated for this for Best Actor in, I think, one of the most controversial Oscar categories we've maybe ever had.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh, wait, I don't know. That he wasn't nominated as best supporting actor. He was a best supporting actor. Okay. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So this is when Martin Landau wins for Ed Wood.

[Brian Koppelman]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Sam Jackson loses for Pulp Fiction. Chaz Palminteri gets nominated for Bullets Over Broadway. That is getting nudged out. Scofield for Quiz show would be one of those who'd be like, oh, get that guy out. But then you watch the movie and you're like, this guy's incredible. Like, yeah, it makes sense. And then Gary Sinise as Forrest Gump.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh, right. As Lieutenant Dan.

[Bill Simmons]

But we lose out. We don't get Bruce Willis from Pulp Fiction. We don't get Ving Rhames from Pulp Fiction. There's a whole bunch of other movies from this year that had some possibilities, but, yeah, that's what happened. But Scofield is like. I mean, like a real legendary, not quite Olivier, but Maybe a level 2, all time Shakespeare guy that everybody revered.

[Brian Koppelman]

I think Scofield's so good in this movie that there's no doubt he deserved the nomination, even with all the things you just said. He's so good. And I heard a story today. I called Paul Atanasio and I was like, I'm not gonna mention you. He goes, no, you can. You can say this. So Atanasio said that Paul Schofield used to go on. I'd never heard this till I heard this an hour ago. He said that Paul Schofield used to go on a silent retreat once a year for a month. But Redford wanted this thing. You're saying about how Redford. But Redford wants him in the movie. But back then, there's no cell phones and he's on a silent retreat. Or there are cell phones in 94, but they're not smartphones. You know, you're not texting a guy to whatever. So he's on a silent retreat on the Isle of Man or someplace like that. That's what. And Redford's like, no, no, no, it's gotta be Paul Schofield. And they're like, nobody can find Paul Schofield. We can't get him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

And Redford's like, where is he? And they figure out that the place that he is, there's a lighthouse and that there has to be a guy in the lighthouse. And so they find a way to contact the guy in the lighthouse and they get him to come down from the lighthouse and go find Paul Schofield and say, you gotta come to the lighthouse and call Robert Redford. And so he does.

[Bill Simmons]

During a silent retreat.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah, gets him off the silent retreat, he goes to the lighthouse, calls Redford, and then Redford's like, I need you to come do this movie. And he's like, all right, I'll get my tie to play with around my neck for the movie.

[Craig]

And that's how Mike Tomlin recruited Aaron Rodgers to the Steelers.

[Bill Simmons]

Same story, same thing. He was ayahuasca, whatever that's called. Retreat. Oh, I left out a Rob Morrow quote. He said because he was. Everybody was going after him, and. And. And he decided to Quiz show. His quote was, I knew this was the one. It had the cachet of Bob Redford. It was incredibly well written. Did people call Robert Redford Bob? Was he a Bob?

[Brian Koppelman]

I never. I never met him. But everyone calls him Bob. I did not call him Bob. I never met him. But they all call him Bob. Yeah. Even today, like, Atanazio called him Bob today. He was like, well, Bob really wanted him. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

They call him Bob. Bob Redford. And then Bob Bobby Dairo. He gets that one right a little bit.

[Brian Koppelman]

That's a tough. So Marty. It's definite. If you know Scorsese, you've been around, you got to call him Marty.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Marty. Yeah, that's. Marty's a. No.

[Brian Koppelman]

You have no choice but to call him Marty. Yeah, I would say everybody does call De Niro Bob, but it's tough to get it out of your mouth.

[Bill Simmons]

You call Robert.

[Brian Koppelman]

It's tough to get out of your mouth.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. This got nominated for Best Picture. The other nominees were Shawshank, Pulp Fiction, Four Weddings and a Funeral. And the winner, Forrest Gump. And then Redford was nominated as director. Zemeckis won for Forrest Gump. Tarantino nominated Frank Darabont for Shawshank. Not nominated. And then we have the best writing on screenplay based on material previously published. Adanasio nominated for that, but Forrest Gump won that one, too. Forrest Gump. Now, I've kind of circled back. Forrest Gump's a really good movie. There was a lot of, like, movie nerd hatred for it for a while because it took all this stuff. But it's a tough one. I mean, I. I personally vote for Shawshank because you take a short story and you make one of the great American movies the last 35 years out of it.

[Brian Koppelman]

But so many great movies that year. Yeah. I never dish, I never dis. Forest Gump. I definitely think Pulp Fiction or Shawshank should have won a lot of these awards in Quiz Show. Right. Right there.

[Bill Simmons]

Screenplay.

[Brian Koppelman]

Screenplay. Yeah, I know. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So quiz show, $31 million budget made $52 million. Roger Ebert, three and a half stars. And I gotta say, I've read, you know, we've done this Roger Ebert segment for a while and I always read the review and I try to pull like a thing out of it. I thought this was one of the best reviews I ever read from him. I, I'll actually, I'll tweet it from the rewatchables Twitter account. It's just great because it's, it's kind of less about the movie and more about what the movie's about, which he didn't really do always. He would, you know, he would do like the traditional movie reviews and then sometimes he would get set off on a tangent. But he said the screenplay was smart and subtle and ruthless. It's careful to place blame where it belongs. But I really like this part. There's a theological belief that it is a greater sin to tempt than to be tempted. And this movie firmly reminds us of that. Now take stock of what we've lost in the four decades since 21 came crashing down. We have lost a respect for intelligence. We reward people for whatever they happen to have learned instead of feeling they might learn more. We have forgotten that the end does not justify the means, especially when the end is a high TV rating or any other kind of popular success. And we have lost a certain innocent idealism. Raj fucking cooking nails it like he really, I think he really liked what this movie was about and had a couple small flaws with it, but. But yeah, he nailed it. We're going to take a break and we're going to do the most rewatchable scene. This episode is brought to you by predator Badlands. On November 7, the biggest, wildest adventure of the year hits theaters everywhere, including 3D and IMAX. Predator Badlands comes from Dan Trachtenberg, director of Prey and Predator, killer of killers. In this film, the Predator is banished to a deadly planet where he'll fight to earn the title the deadliest hunter in the universe. Predator Badlands in theater everywhere on November 7 and 3D and IMAX tickets on sale now. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Kathryn Bigelow, the Oscar winning director of the Hurt Locker and Zero Dark Thirty two movies we need to do in the rewatchables, is back with A House of Dynamite, a cinematic, visceral thriller about America's race to respond to an anonymous missile launch. I just know I'm going to like this. Under the pressure of a ticking clock, the film's characters are called to make Impossible decisions with implications for all of civilization that includes us while at the same time confronting their own emotions and humanity. A House of Dynamite. It's on Netflix October 24th. All right, most rewatchable scene. Stemple's first scene. And the way they frame that, that quiz show. My only question is, would you go for the actual first scene when Rob Morrow's buying the Chrysler?

[Brian Koppelman]

It's an amazing. That's an incredible scene, the Chrysler scene.

[Craig]

Walk me.

[Bill Simmons]

Walk me through the case for it.

[Brian Koppelman]

I can. Though I do think it's ruined by the end of it. The button of that scene is the one moment that, for me, is, like, too obvious. You know, when. The Sputnik thing. But right up until there, it's, like, as good. It's Mad Men. It's like an episode of Mad Men in this little tiny sliver 20 years before mad Men. It's incredible. And it tells you everything about the era and about the guy that we're talking. I mean, it sets up for later when he's, like, too rich for my blood. It's like, it's a perfect setup for who this character is, and it's a setup for America and where America was and what a car meant. But then the end of it, when they bring in this idea of Sputnik. It is, to me, the only moment in the whole movie that tries too hard is that moment. But it doesn't ruin it for me. And I would. I would have an. I have another argument for most rewatchable scene, but go ahead, you tell me. What's the most rewatchable to you?

[Bill Simmons]

I wrote down. I have nine.

[Brian Koppelman]

Okay, go.

[Bill Simmons]

Stempel's first scene. Herbie's dead. But just like going. Going into an actual 50s game show the way they did, and the little phone booths. You're watching it from the prism now of like, oh, I'm thinking, like, could this work? Would this exact idea work in 2025? Thinking all about things. The Van Doren interview where Zara is like, I got the guy. I got the guy. I got the guy. And. And they do the little cat and mouse game with him, and it's unclear if he took the debate or not, is just really strong stuff. And I agree with you on the Pamer's area comedy team thing. It's funny. Turtura flipping out when Pamer tells him to lose. For 70 grand, Herb, you can afford to be humiliated. Humiliated. Van Doren beating Stemple. And you know. You know he knows the answer. You don't know if he's going to flip and then just say, fuck it. I'm saying, marty, what are they going to do? And then it goes to. To Van Doren, and they give him the question that they gave him in the audition.

[Brian Koppelman]

That. And, you know, they said he wouldn't do it. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And you know what's great about this? I love movies with a what would you do? Moment.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh, that's great. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where you're in and you're like, all right, what would I do? Because you like to think, like, I'd be idealistic. I wouldn't. I would be like, get the. You know, I'd be like, I'm not participating this. I told you I didn't want to do it this way. And you guys tried to fuck me, so I'm out. But then you start thinking about, oh, this is one of the 20 biggest shows on TV. Oh, there's money at stake, and you just sell your principles.

[Brian Koppelman]

Not even that. Not all that, for sure, but also that other behavioral, economic stuff of everyone going along with it. And can you be the one lone voice, like, imagine trying to get out of your things. Oh, I heard this question before. Like, you know how hard it would be to say those words, though the movie does such a good job. Because when they build to the big scene and when Van Dorn's like, throw in the money. Throw in the whole thing, would you do it? And Rob Morrow just goes, no. And he goes, but I would. But you believe Morrow wouldn't. I do. When I'm watching the movie, I believe Rob Morrow.

[Bill Simmons]

I believe it, too. I think the right answer would have been to say, I think there's been a mistake. I know the answer to that, but. Because in my audition, they asked me that question. So I think that's an error on your side. I know the answer, but give me another question.

[Brian Koppelman]

I think I would. When I've rehearsed this in my head, that's exactly what I think I would have said. But you are right to say it makes us all kind of imagine that we would do the right thing. But who really knows?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they say to Pamer afterwards, how'd you know he'd go for it? What would you do? Like, he's just like, of course he was going to go for it. It's human nature. You're going to go for it. I wrote down the montage. I love a good montage. The things are looking up for Charles Van Dora Montage. Highest ratings ever. Newspapers, new apartment. You know, you always need a creepy.

[Brian Koppelman]

Moment when you pretend that the Fake shoe tie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

The fake shoe tie in the back of the car.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. To try to try to wait till.

[Brian Koppelman]

The kids get time, the girls and everything.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. As Herb unravels. So the chocolate cake scene. Charlie versus dad, which we got to give the Big Kahuna Burger award for best use of food or drink to the chocolate cake. Unless you want to give it to Gerital.

[Brian Koppelman]

Good for the blood. Tired blood.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, good for your blood. Van Dorn dumps it. Stemple's testimony. The TV president lobbying Charles. Including quotes like speculation in our society has a way of becoming fact. Oof.

[Brian Koppelman]

Dark scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Television is a public trust. We can't afford even a hint of a scandal. Just like classic evil 1950s.

[Brian Koppelman]

Wait.

[Bill Simmons]

CEO guy. Charles confesses to his dad. Schofield goes to another level in this.

[Brian Koppelman]

That's an incredible moment.

[Bill Simmons]

They gave you the answers.

[Brian Koppelman]

You got the answers.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Charles's statement, which is really the Nepo baby mantra. I've stood on the shoulders of life and I've never gotten down in the dirt to build, to erect a foundation of my own. I've flown too high on borrowed wings. Everything came too easy. Great stuff. And then the ending, if you want to throw that in too. My favorite stretch is Van Doren beating Stempel through the montage to the untying of the shoe. Like that whole stretch of the movie. I really enjoy.

[Brian Koppelman]

Me too. But I would throw in.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Brian Koppelman]

For me. My favorite. The thing that I've rewatched so many times is the run when they almost become friends. Like, to me, that run when they almost become friends and they meet at the Athenaeum Club and you're brought into that world that goes all the way through that trip to Connecticut when you meet all those people. Because that sets the movie up in a way. And it's like the hunter and the prey, but the hunter's not sure that he wants to pick up the gun and shoot the prey because it's a beautiful gazelle. And it's like, am I really gonna shoot this gazelle? I don't know that. You know that moment when the father's like, we don't even have a tv. And then Charlie, his ego is so. You know, Charlie's talking about the money, and then he gives him that big tv. And there's something about that sequence of. You know.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good point. That's a great scene. The whole picnic table, rich family in Connecticut scene.

[Brian Koppelman]

Cause I've never seen. It's like the kind of thing where, however I grew, you know, like, yeah, I didn't grow up poor. I didn't. I grew up fine. But I never saw that, you know, I mean, well, it's like when the.

[Bill Simmons]

Kennedys would be at Hyannisport every year playing touch football on some football field lawn.

[Brian Koppelman]

It's like, I. You know, I think maybe part of it is growing up as, like, a Jewish kid from wherever. Even though. And watching him go to that restaurant and go like, you know, the Reuben's the only totally invented sandwich.

[Craig]

And.

[Brian Koppelman]

And then he goes, I don't see a lot of Reubens in here. And it is like he's getting to be on the inner sanctum. He's getting to be in the inner sanctum, and he has to make this decision, do I want to stay in this inner sanctum or do I want to do my job? And it's one of those. And it's interesting, right, because Atanasio does the same thing in Donnie Brasco. There's something about the outsider coming in, getting a little bit seduced by the world, and then, am I going to do my job or am I going to. Having finally gotten on the inside. Hey, I like how this feels on the inside of this world. It's really cushy and special, and I feel like I'm part of that. I don't know. The movie seduces. For me, the movie seduces you as he's getting seduced. And I think it's so hard to do. Like, when you talk about. As a screenplay, I can't imagine how you write those sequences. And then that emotion just adds up and adds up. And I think. I think you just have so many feelings about. Because I think from the beginning, you kind of hate Van Doren, but then you kind of see Van Doren in a way, through Charlie's eyes and you. I mean, through Dick Goodwin's eyes. And you kind of can't hate him because Dick Goodwin's kind of falling in love with him.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm with you. All right, so we disagree on rewatchables. Will we agree on what's the most 1994 thing about this movie?

[Brian Koppelman]

Tell me.

[Bill Simmons]

My nominees are Rob Morrow getting top credit billing over Ray Fines. I did notice that, but I think the answer is just 1994. Marty Scorsese.

[Brian Koppelman]

Love it.

[Bill Simmons]

Just having him at the exact age he's at makes me know that it's rooted in, like, exactly this year.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh, while we're there for 1994, though, because I. When you. The. Another way I looked at that 1994 question, since the movie set in the 50s was like. I was like, what's the most 1950s thing about the movie?

[Bill Simmons]

What's that? Jarrata.

[Brian Koppelman]

Well, Jarrata for sure, but also the use of the word beatnik to convey the idea that he was gay.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, this.

[Brian Koppelman]

The gay artist town. And he goes, why? Because the beat, the Greenwich Village beatnik says it.

[Bill Simmons]

When was the last time anyone said gentiles and Jews?

[Brian Koppelman]

That too.

[Bill Simmons]

But when did that end? Like 1972? I don't even know. It certainly wasn't somewhere in our childhood.

[Brian Koppelman]

Somewhere in our childhoods, like, someone was like, are we inviting the gentiles to the bar mitzvah? And someone else was like, should we let that go? Let's let it go. Yeah, let's just let that. Let's let that go and be done. But wait, I do want to point out two other people who are in this movie we didn't mention. And we should. And this is a good moment because of the time. So the guy who plays that beatnik that's based on, for all the changes, that's a real guy. James Snodgrass. That guy really did save the answers. But that's played by this amazing guy named Douglas McGrath, who died a couple years ago and was a great filmmaker and screenwriter. He actually wrote Bullets Over Broadway with Woody. He also wrote the play, the Carole King play and made that movie Emma. And he was this one of the funniest, best guys in the world. He was in Solitary man and we loved this. This was really one of the greatest guys you ever met in your life. And he died super young, like super tragically, like an out of nowhere heart attack in his like early 50s, but a really special person. And then Ben Shankman's in the opening scene. It was like a great actor who's been in a million things, like in Pie and also a lot of episodes, billions. And he's giving. He gives Morrow shit at the beginning. It's just an all over the place. These. That guy. Incredible actors.

[Bill Simmons]

What stage the best. We mentioned the 1950s rich people circles, which I think Ripley still is the pantheon for that. That's. That's the highest level when we're. We're in like Italy and all over the place with Freddy and Jude Law and the whole crew. The father son stuff we talked about a couple times already, but the dynamic and, and they don't spend a ton of time in scenes with them, but you know, the dynamic immediately you can tell the weight of the dad, both professionally and like as just a character. And. And just how revered he is. You can tell how the son is. Has a lot of stuff going for him on his own, but he's still in the shadow a little bit. And there's a difference with the dad. I just think that stuff's really hard to pull off.

[Brian Koppelman]

You know what else I think aged really great? Rigged. What? Rigged reality shows.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Brian Koppelman]

Rigged reality shows are everywhere you turn. It's all rigged now.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody would care now. Yeah, nobody would even care.

[Brian Koppelman]

Every. I mean, we all just assume that, like, basically every reality show has some level of riggedness on it. And this was the first one. And. And, you know, I just think that that idea that you tell people what to say on a supposed reality show and it might affect the world turns out to be true.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. 50 years later, you have Lauren Conrad and Brody Jenner pretending they're dating for the entire last season of the Hills. And then it ends and they do a wide shot and it's like a Hollywood set in the background. And it's like, wait, did you just fake that entire show? But yeah, by the 2000s, we were doing this openly.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

You make a guy a boss of a real estate empire and then he becomes boss of.

[Bill Simmons]

You do that, too. More with Sage. The best. You know, I really liked when kids wanted to be Joe DiMaggio.

[Brian Koppelman]

That's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

I was just like hearing that in a movie. It really seems like there was about a 10 year stretch where people are just like, all I want to do is be Joe DiMaggio. And then it got replaced by Mickey Mantle and Willie.

[Brian Koppelman]

Man.

[Bill Simmons]

All I want to do is be one of these brilliant. I don't know who that is now.

[Brian Koppelman]

On your TikTok, because speaking of Forrest Gump, has it come through on any. Your TikTok or Instagram? Tom Hanks telling the meeting Joe DiMaggio story. But is it. It's really for you. He was in a restaurant. No, I mean, he was in a restaurant. Hanks tells it. I don't know. I just saw it on TikTok. It's not. But Hanks. I've saw Hanks. It's come up like 10 times recently. And I watch it all the way through. He's in a restaurant. And the maitre d comes up and goes, Mr. DiMaggio wonders if you'd like to go say hello to him at his table. And Hanks is like, runs over to the table and gets to spend 10 minutes with DiMaggio. And he talks about how easy DiMaggio made it look. And DiMaggio looks at him and goes, it didn't feel easy in here.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh, it's. You'll find it. Hank's telling the story. He's great.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. That's like the last level of fame when you send somebody over to be like, Brian Koppelman. Wonders if you'd like to come over and say hi to him at his table.

[Brian Koppelman]

And if you're Tom.

[Bill Simmons]

Amazing.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah. You're not even. Of course.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You're in the middle of some. Some. Some friends telling you they're about to get divorced. You're like, hold on one second.

[Brian Koppelman]

It's DiMaggio. I gotta go.

[Bill Simmons]

Hold on. Finish that divorce story.

[Brian Koppelman]

Do you think anyone even a day younger than you understands why he races to Joe DiMaggio's table like we do growing up with Mr. Coffee? And just like the legend, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

We'Re probably the last. I'm probably the last. Mid-50s is probably the end of that. Because I remember in Seinfeld when they had the episode where Joe DiMaggio was at the counter.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That was kind of the tail end of when that joke would have worked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he dated, played for the Yankees, and he was married to Marilyn Monroe.

[Brian Koppelman]

Monroe, of course. No. Great.

[Bill Simmons]

Unbelievable.

[Brian Koppelman]

56. You and I still know 56 games, like, but I don't know if people know that or care.

[Bill Simmons]

56 straight hits.

[Brian Koppelman]

56 hits. 56 straight games with a hit.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if people like 56 straight games. One hit a game, at least. Probably the greatest record.

[Brian Koppelman]

Don't you think you've just known that.

[Bill Simmons]

The greatest attainable record. The greatest attainable record ever. Nobody else has gotten a 45.

[Brian Koppelman]

But don't you think that's, like, we just know that from our fathers, like, because I know that from as little as I. I know that my entire life. That statistic from my father. I'm 59, so I'm a couple years old. I didn't know that my whole life.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we had the signature statistics that you just knew by heart. I don't know if they're tons of.

[Brian Koppelman]

Them, because there wasn't. We had to. No, we had to memorize them because we couldn't just go look them up.

[Bill Simmons]

True.

[Brian Koppelman]

Good point.

[Bill Simmons]

You only had, like, a book. Yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

Like, Maris. Like, I don't even know if kids know Maris now. Like, I don't know if they know. Even with the movie. I don't know if they know. They shouldn't. No one says they have to either. But, you know, I knew what Bob. I Mean, I knew Bob McAdoo's. I knew what Bob McAdoon, what his average was when he. At Buffalo, when he won the scoring title. You know what I mean?

[Bill Simmons]

That was the whole point of the baseball, basketball cards was they had the stats on the back. I was like, oh, quick. More. What stage the best Levinson and Scorsese. We mentioned the actual YouTube clip of the entire show, which I sent to you. When Stemple throws the show with Marty, it's on YouTube. You can watch the whole thing. And it's kind of amazing to watch him blow the answer and not be quite a good enough actor to pull it off. But nobody knew any better at the time.

[Brian Koppelman]

But you can really see him intentionally doing it. Screenwriting man. Because, as you know, that wasn't really the climactic moment of that episode.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it kept going and going.

[Brian Koppelman]

But Paul Atanacio clearly realized, okay, that's drama. I can make a lot of drama out of that. And he did it. Really great stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Still need. Still need him to write that script about the 94 finals. What stage? The best Geritol. America's number one tonic. Just how omnipresent Gerita was. It's just so funny as we get older and these things that were huge for us once upon a time, like Kodak Geritol, and these things just go away. And it makes you think, like, what are the things now that 20 years from now be like, yeah, Instagram, it's just gone. Just got sold for $5.

[Brian Koppelman]

Well, there were so many of those things, Bill, like Bear aspirin. And then there was that other one, Anacin Anison.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that in.

[Brian Koppelman]

25 years till you just said Folgers Coffee.

[Bill Simmons]

Does Folger's coffee still exist?

[Brian Koppelman]

Folgers? Yeah, they still make jingles and shit. But, like, Bear Aniston was like, as much as there was Bear, every Bear head, it would be like, Bear and Aniston. Now. Where does it go? What happened to that guy?

[Bill Simmons]

How about Woolworths? We had on the east coast, we had Calders. Like the Calders. Whatever it's called. Van Doren's dad, at one point in this movie does the. They're talking about poker, and he does the if you can't spot the sucker at the table, you are the sucker routine. I was like, rounders complement. That was your homage. You grabbed it well.

[Brian Koppelman]

It's an incredible casually. It's amazing. Yeah. Every time I see it in the movie, I'm like, I know that consciously. I remember When Dave and I wrote the line, we definitely weren't calling it to ourselves. But of course, that's the way this all works. And we definitely heard the line in that movie because we'd seen the movie more than once.

[Bill Simmons]

I loved it.

[Brian Koppelman]

But I also love when Morrow goes, well, I don't know if I'm a gambler, but I know which end of an ace is up. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Same scene. Great shot. Gordo, what do you have? Most cinematic shot?

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah, I don't know. That was the one. Probably the thing you already said. Like that whole opening sequence where those moving camera shots throughout that whole thing where you feel like you're being just. It's really editing. But it is cinematography, too, where the camera's moving you all around NBC and the game show thing. And it's kind of amazing, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

I agree with you. I think it's multiple moments in that first scene. Chess, Rockwell, Brocklanders award, best character name Charles Van Doren. How is that a real name?

[Brian Koppelman]

Incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, how can we come up with the waspiest, incredible, powerful sounding name ever? How about Charles Van Doren, the Butch's Girlfriend Award for weak link of the film? I mentioned this already, but this is really, from a rewatchable standpoint, just Herb Stemple. Just a tough hang. If you're gonna watch, you. You're one of the only people who've probably watched this movie 50 times. But herbs. Like, herbs a lot.

[Brian Koppelman]

I can't.

[Bill Simmons]

Herbs a lot. Craig, will you come in for a second?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Herb's a lot.

[Craig]

Herb is a lot. But Herb is, you know, the little man, he's all of us. We all are all. We are all herb. You know, Takaro's great.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, this is great. Okay. I think Craig liked this movie. All right, Craig, we'll bring you back in a second. What's age the worst? We mentioned Morrow's Boston accent. Oh, did you have a weak link, by the way? You love this movie. You probably didn't.

[Brian Koppelman]

All right, I don't remember.

[Bill Simmons]

What's age the worst? Morrow's Boston accent mentioned an all timer, Gerita being important. So this sent me down a Gerita rabbit hole to what happened to Gerital. Yeah, they started in 1959. Started getting investigated by the FTC because.

[Brian Koppelman]

They pushed one year right after. You mean, like, right after this?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, right as this was happening? Yeah, it was a tough time. So they were. They were basically saying, like, it was a remedy for tiredness and it made your blood stronger. But what they found out was it really Was only effective for people with anemia. So then they had to disclose most people with fatigue do not have iron deficiency, would not benefit from Geritol. Tough one. Then they had a little comeback in 1972 with the ad, which I know you remember, where the guy looks at the camera and he's talking about his wife. He goes, my wife, I think I'll keep her. And all the. Everybody got pissed off. And it was a controversial ad, but it actually worked. And they had a run basically until 1979. It finally ended. Now Jarretals. But yeah, that's it. Nice little 25 year run for Jarratov, selling basically a shaman product. It was like a fake snake oil. It really was Jake, well, that's. Your blood will be better.

[Brian Koppelman]

I mean, that's what Scorsese's saying in the movie when he goes, I mean, I sell Gerathal and it's incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

And then in the, in the actual game show cover up, I had this as a. What stage the worst. I kind of fucked with quiz shows and game shows for a while. Like they really like went into a major slump and then came back during my childhood in the 70s. Ironically, one of the ones was Joker's Wild, which. Which Jack Barry was the host of. But there was so much, so much scrutiny on how they did these shows and all these laws changed and they just became harder to do. So it it up. It wasn't the only show. All right, the historical accuracy stuff, while we're on what stage the worst. They took three years of the scandal, compressed it into one. They made it Van Doren's choice to incorrectly answer a question. His own choice, but it was actually NBC's to score stuff was 21. 21. And then it just. The game kept going. They made it seem like it didn't. When he, when he took the title, Goodwin's. There's a lot of stuff about Goodwin's role in the investigation which was less important than how the movie made it. That was where it got criticized especially. This is right around the time they started going after each other with Oscar movies and PR campaigns.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And they really played up how kind of this was. You know, the, the word was used was dishonest. I don't know if it was dishonest, but they really.

[Brian Koppelman]

Goodwin was an unbelievable character. I'm sure you've read about him a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

I mean, just one of the most. I mean a guy was a speechwriter for JFK right there with Robert Kennedy, Doris Kearns Goodwin's husband, and she Wrote this amazing memoir about him. I mean, Dick Goodwin was an incredible figure of the last century, but there.

[Bill Simmons]

Was way more people that I think were doing the investigation than just him. So that was the issue.

[Brian Koppelman]

I went down the big rabbit hole on this, and, yeah, there were. Were a bunch of dudes who actually did the legwork before Dick Goodman got in there.

[Bill Simmons]

He got even in there. And then the only other big one was that Van Doren did teach after the scandal. And he. It was the one issue he had with the movie where he was like, dude, I kept teaching. Like, I don't know why you put that in the credits.

[Brian Koppelman]

So, yeah, he wrote this article in the New Yorker. I read it this morning. Like, in 2008, Van Dorn wrote this long article. And if you read it, like, if you're. If you're listening to this and you watch the movie, it's funny, because he's trying to. It's one of those things where it's a guy writing to try to kind of defend himself, but you come away from the. From that article, and you think, yeah, he'd do the same thing again. Like, he had a huge ego, and he wanted fame and money and power, and, like, you can feel that he wouldn't have done much different.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think. I think you should have changed your name to Brian Van Koppelman.

[Brian Koppelman]

You're right. Is it too late?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, better screenwriter name? Then you're like, bvp. Like, I don't know.

[Brian Koppelman]

Call me BV Call me BVP Anytime you want.

[Bill Simmons]

That's fine. We have. We're on the next category. Oh, the CR Thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest Take Award. You probably don't have a hottest take, but I have one for both of us.

[Brian Koppelman]

Go. You give me the hot take. I have one, but you go for it. Go ahead.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you go.

[Brian Koppelman]

I just think Rob Morrow should have become one of the world's biggest movie stars after this movie. Like, the alternate reality. I don't understand it. I don't know why he didn't just get cast in the next. Why wasn't he the lead of fucking Jurassic park or the next Whatever?

[Bill Simmons]

I think I might have an answer.

[Brian Koppelman]

Go ahead.

[Bill Simmons]

I think there was a glut of really good actors under 40 that he would have had to compete with parts for. And if you just put him in a time machine 20 years later, he's probably better off. Like, think all the people from that decade.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah, you look. I mean, you just rattled off all the guys who came It's. I think you just said it to me. It's like all the guys who came after. Because you just mentioned Matt and Ben, but you didn't even mention Jude.

[Bill Simmons]

I had another one. I didn't. Well, Jude I had. For recasting Couch Director City. What about young Russell Crowe and the Rob Morrow part? Right. He would have. He would have killed it. Like, we just had too many people in the 90s, and I think he got lost in the shuffle.

[Brian Koppelman]

Philip Seymour Hoffman.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. I mean, Wahlberg's in there, too, and Affleck. And you just. Hanks is in his peak at that point. And, you know, it just goes on and on. So I. I think that might. And then Clooney comes out of nowhere in Val Kilmer's there. You just. It's like an embarrassment of riches. And I. I don't really know. It's. I've talked about this before. It's almost like one of those NBA stretches, like in the early 90s when we just had hall of Famers all over the place. It's like, Jesus.

[Brian Koppelman]

I think you're right.

[Craig]

I think that's a real.

[Brian Koppelman]

I know some more. I was on tv. But I think you're. You're right. I. But when I look at what he does in that movie, and maybe it is as simple as the accent, that some people didn't like it and other people popped, but I look at it, I'm like, man, that guy should have been a movie star.

[Bill Simmons]

I agree with you, and I'm sure he agrees. We. My hottest take is this. If this movie comes out one year later, it wins best Film and best Director. Wow.

[Brian Koppelman]

What's the next year's movies remind me?

[Bill Simmons]

Braveheart and Mel Gibson win in 95. And I think it. I think it beats both of those. And I think it would honestly have a pretty good case in 96 against English patient. English Patient. Which one would be great as well? I just think it was bad luck for coming out this year and especially with Redford. And there might have been a tiny bit of Redford fatigue, too, at this point, because he had. He'd made his movie come back. He'd done Sneakers, he'd done A Decent Proposal, he'd done River Runs Through it, he was doing Sundance and now Quiz show. And I don't know if he had spaced it out two years, maybe, casting what ifs. Redford won An American for Van Doren, couldn't find anybody, kind of honed in on William Baldwin for a second, couldn't get there, and settled On Ray finds we and Baldman getting a lot of calls back then. This one killed me. Turned down the role of Mark Van Doren. Paul Newman.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh, it's a Paul Newman role. Even the Connecticut of it. All right. Yeah. But it ends up being Schofield and it's really like one of the Scofield's. Great.

[Bill Simmons]

I just as a Newman Redford, of course, aficionado of that relationship, which we've talked about. Another rewatchables that would have been really fun if, if Newman was the day. I don't know if he would.

[Brian Koppelman]

Why did he turn it down? Did they say, did they have an answer?

[Bill Simmons]

Didn't say.

[Brian Koppelman]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Levinson was apparently originally attached to the project as a director. Couldn't do it because he was doing Bugsy. And then Redford just brought him in anyway. Then there's stuff online about Steven Soderbergh allegedly with Tim Robbins as Charles Van Dorn. I don't know. I, I, it didn't pass the sniff test to me.

[Brian Koppelman]

No, it's. That's a.

[Bill Simmons]

True or not true? That's true. Okay. Why do you seem like you don't want to talk about it? Because that's your guy. Robbins.

[Brian Koppelman]

No, I mean Robbins is the lead guy, I believe. I, I will say that I am not sure about the Tim Robbins part of that, but I do think that what you just brought about, who was supposed to do that movie, is true. And it would have been incredible if Soderbergh directed it. It would have been incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they were trying to make it for the early part of the 90s, so they probably went to a couple people and then finally Redford wanted to do it and that was that. They asked Charles Van Doren if he would be a consultant and offer him at $100,000 and he said no.

[Brian Koppelman]

His wife. So that's in this New Yorker article. His wife said she'd leave him if he said if he did it or something like that.

[Bill Simmons]

The Ruffalo Hand and Ruben Partridge Overacting Award. Turo dies. It dials it up a couple times, just not a criticism. But if we're going for the overacting, I, I, you know, he dials it up. Best that Guy Award. David Pamer not eligible. I have one, but I want to know what you think it is. It has to be that guy. It can't be. We like normal people can't know his name. So who is it? There's a couple people at the poker game that I thought jumped out at me.

[Brian Koppelman]

Jack Gilpin is at the poker game. Buzzfields at the poker. No, you got to give it to Hank. His area. Because at the time, I think a lot of people like, you got to give it to Hank. Hank is so fucking great.

[Bill Simmons]

So your case is, Hank was that guy at the time.

[Brian Koppelman]

He wasn't famous yet like he is now. He, you know, barely done. Like, he. When did he come. He came out two years later, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Heats. Heats. A year later. Yeah. He's like a Simpson voice. That's it. Nobody knows what he looks like.

[Brian Koppelman]

And. And he's so good in the movie. Like, he's so different than any other movie he's in. You just kind of believe he's that guy and he does all that shit. Like, when he walks in and he's like, he's. I think that their comic timing together is amazing. But we're gonna have a minute to talk about Pamer, right? And about that scene with Pamer, and.

[Bill Simmons]

Let'S do it right now.

[Brian Koppelman]

Well, for me, that's the other. Not the most rewatchable scene, but in a way, maybe the best scene, other than these couple we've mentioned, is when Rob Morrow tells Pamer the acting performance that Pamer does when he's blowing him off. Blowing him off. You know, you're a very, like, you know, whatever young man, like. And then he goes, yeah, the thing is, he. He sent the answers to himself registered mail. And, like, everything changes on David Pamer's face. And he just goes.

[Bill Simmons]

He goes to sit down.

[Brian Koppelman]

Why would he do that? And then he sits down and. And then he says, I'll never roll over on NBC. You know, if they knew and they didn't know, I'd never get back. And it's like that moment when you started with television is gonna get us. You know, that's the moment where Rob Mara goes, I don't think you'll be working in the business again. And Pamela's like, no, if I tell them, if I rat out NBC, I'll never work in the business again. But he knew if he kept his mouth shut. And he goes, television's all I know. It's my whole life. And I don't. There's something. So he's such a villain and such a scumbag, the character Dan Enright, the character he plays. And in that moment, though, you understand he has some kind of code and he's not gonna rat on these guys. And he somehow knows to Rob Morrow, like, hey, dude, you don't understand American business the way I do. And what I Know about American business is if I just keep my mouth shut, and American business will reward me for it. And then, you know, years later, that guy gets super rich. He creates. Joker was wild with Jack Barry, like you said. And those guys are on television for another 25 years.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. He's really good in this movie. My answer for best. That guy. Controversial. It's Barry Levinson.

[Brian Koppelman]

Love it. Okay, fine.

[Bill Simmons]

Because if. If you don't know what a director looks like, which is basically the entire country except for, like, a very select few, you see him in this movie, and it's like, oh, it's the guy from the end of Rain Man. Right. Because that was the other movie he was in.

[Brian Koppelman]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Where he plays Raymond.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you rather go.

[Brian Koppelman]

Would you rather work the Doctor?

[Bill Simmons]

Would you rather live with your brother or go back to. Go back to over Overbrook. Whatever it's called. Live it. Would you rather go to Sunnybrook or live with your brother? Would you want to live with your Sunnybrook with your brother? And he's just like. And Cruz is like, all right, that's enough. That's enough. But, yeah, those are his two movies.

[Brian Koppelman]

I do love when directors are in movies. It's the best.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you've, You've dabbled.

[Brian Koppelman]

I mean, yeah, I mean, sure, yes, I'm. Yes, obviously. I, I, I'm, I'm in stuff. I love being in stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna put you in my movie. I'm gonna cast you in my movie that I have. I'm in. I had DN Waiters Award, clearly at Sanka's area.

[Brian Koppelman]

Love it.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not in the movie that much. Every time he's in, he's throwing 98 miles an hour. I thought he was the winner. And then I mentioned recasting couch. Young Russell Crowe would have been really interesting in this. Catching him at a. At a really cool point in his career where nothing's really happened yet. I think he's the right age. Anyway, we'll take one more break, and then we got a flex category from Craig. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Figuring out your next career move isn't always easy. That's why LinkedIn connects you with the people, ideas, and resources that help you move forward with confidence. Whether you're exploring new paths or leveling up, LinkedIn is here to support your journey. It's the world's largest professional network for a reason. Because when it comes to your career, having the right tools and connections isn't just helpful, it's essential. Whether you're after your first job looking to grow your professional community or gain expertise, LinkedIn can help you grow your career with confidence. Visit LinkedIn.com Discover the tools and features that will help you develop professionally wherever you are in your journey. This episode is brought to you by Crisp, refreshing Angry Orchard Scary movie tropes can get you all fired up this season. Don't get angry about the idiots deciding to split up when there's a slasher on the loose. Just slash open Angry Orchard's new Halloween thriller pack made in partnership with the Jason universe, featuring four new killer flavors like Blood Orange. Don't get angry. Get Orchard Find Angry Orchard near you this Halloween season. Angry orchard cider company llc angry orchard.com please drink responsibly. Angry Orchard is a hard cider with other natural flavors. You can now watch rewatchables on Spotify and the Ringer's first ever television channel. Yeah, you heard me. Available exclusively on Samsung tv, the subscription free streaming destination bringing you the best of tv. Also really good tv. Samsung rewatch some of our greatest hits like Back to the Future, Alien, the Sandlot, and many more on the all day Ringer Channel. You can also settle in and catch up with the other Ringer favorites including Hasselbar, the Big Picture, even highlights from book of basketball 2.0. To watch, all you have to do is open the Samsung TV plus app on your Samsung TV or Galaxy Mobile device, navigate to the Ringer channel and boom, you're in. All right, Craig's here. He's got a Flex category. What do you got?

[Craig]

I don't know if this is a full Sasha Jenkins award for the actor. You can't believe they didn't become a bigger star, but it's a mini version of that and I just want to shout out Christopher McDonald who plays Jack Barry, who I just think is great. Every time I've seen him in a movie. He's obviously Shooter McGavin and he almost kind of got typecasted as that, but I just love him. I think he's got great timing. He's so slick. He's, he's good looking. He can kind of do a lot. He's got a great sense of humor. I feel like maybe you guys can tell me he was a bigger star than I thought, but I feel like he never really became a thing.

[Bill Simmons]

He was not a bigger star than you thought. I don't really understand it. It feels like he just should have been on some hit sitcom for like seven years, just crushing it. Like the brother on Everybody Loves Raymond or Something on top of doing all those movie things.

[Brian Koppelman]

One notch.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think he's gotten this belated run, though.

[Brian Koppelman]

I think one notch too handsome to be a character actor, not quite a leading man, and falls in this tweener. Tweener where he's neither. But he's great. I agree with you. Great all the time. Note. Perfect. It's a great call, Craig, but I think it's because he doesn't feel like. He doesn't feel like a character actor. But he is. And he's not quite a leading man because there's something so almost slick and smooth.

[Craig]

Yeah, a little slick.

[Brian Koppelman]

And so it's kind of like. Yeah, it just. He is just sort of in between game show. You know why? He looks like a game show host. So he's really well cast.

[Craig]

Shouting out Bonnie Timmerman. I mean, he's so good. That scene where Goodwin. One of my favorite scenes is when Goodwin discovers the tell in the episode.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

When he's watching the old tapes and he sees Jack Barry, like, stumble and get in the script is wrong. McDonald is so good in that. He's so natural. The double take he does and he's like.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah, with James Snodgrass. And that's James Snodgrass moment when he. When the guy gave the answers to himself. Totally, man.

[Craig]

I just also love those scenes in movies when it was one person notices something on the tape. Like, even. It's like Joaquin Phoenix and signs when he lean. When he sees the alien. Anytime somebody, like, sees something on tape. Amazing scene.

[Brian Koppelman]

Anyway.

[Bill Simmons]

Blue chips.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Not Tony. Not Tony. Tony's. Tony's a good kid.

[Craig]

The best moment.

[Bill Simmons]

Good kid.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh, how about an air? It's like an air when he's like. You're looking at it wrong. And he keeps pointing to Jordan.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, right.

[Brian Koppelman]

And there, look at him. He's about to take the biggest shot of his life.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm really glad we got to give out the Sasha Jenkins award. I don't feel like we give that out enough.

[Craig]

Can you remind me what that's from?

[Bill Simmons]

It's from Dazed and Confused. He's Don Dawson, the guy with the overalls.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

And if you only watch Days and Confused, you would think Sasha Jenkins would became one of the 10 biggest stars in the world.

[Craig]

That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

He's hilarious. He's good looking. Like, he's like a funny Tim Riggins and.

[Brian Koppelman]

But Christopher McDonald's way more. Just to your point about whether he's a bigger star. I mean, way more famous because Shooter McGavin in this movie. Are these cultural things?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

No, I'm saying he's way more famous than Sasha Jenkins.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's weird. It worked out for him correctly. He's also really good in dirty work with Norm MacDonald.

[Brian Koppelman]

Which you've done, Norman. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. All right, Craig, we'll see you at the end. Half asset center research. We've done a few of these. Charles Van Doren drove a red Mercedes Benz 300 SL Roadster, which is now worth seven figures easy, if you can find one. 21. Ran for three seasons. Peaked at number 21 in the ratings. Canceled 1959. Revived in 2000 with Maury Povich. I have no recollection of this.

[Brian Koppelman]

Me neither.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you remember that?

[Brian Koppelman]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Maury povich hosted 21. Literally, no.

[Brian Koppelman]

Mid-90s. You and I weren't watching game shows.

[Bill Simmons]

No, probably not. And then you mentioned Barry and Enright go in exile. Enright moves to Canada. Barry doesn't host another national show for over a decade. They come back with Joker's Wild in the early 70s. One of the many things I credit to the fact that I love to gamble. Joker's Wild.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Fantastic show. That and cartoons are two of my favorites.

[Brian Koppelman]

Unlike the 70s. We were watching game shows.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

That's what I'm saying.

[Bill Simmons]

That was like one of our only connections to celebrities.

[Brian Koppelman]

We would come home from school and just watch game shows.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

Like, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Joker's Wild was tremendous and it made them very rich. Apex Mountain Redford directed movies.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, for me. But River Runs. A lot of people would say River Runs through it. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

I would say Ordinary People. Still.

[Brian Koppelman]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that movie is amazing.

[Brian Koppelman]

I mean, for me, this, obviously, but I. I can't argue with that. It won the best picture, so how am I going to argue with it?

[Bill Simmons]

Mary Tyler Moore is such a monster. I just watched. It was on. I watched the last hour of it. Don't ask me why a couple weeks ago. She's such a monster in that movie. It's like her and Jack Torrance in the Shining and they're like, worse than Michael Myers and Jason.

[Brian Koppelman]

Did you cry? Did you cry? Just watching the last hour? Yeah. Awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

I got. I got a little choked up, I gotta be honest.

[Brian Koppelman]

Awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

I never cry when I watch stuff like the last episode of Task. There's a really sad scene in it. And I think it would have gotten me like, 20 years ago, and it didn't 100 get me now. I just, like, really hard to make me get choked up. You get choked up. When you watch stuff.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah, but it depends. I got to be re. Yes, it can. Yeah. Yes, I could still. Yeah. Something great. Like, if something's great, it can still get me, like. But yeah, we have. Our defenses are more up now because it. You know, you get a little older, it costs you more after you when you go through something like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Brian Koppelman]

True.

[Bill Simmons]

Ray finds it's probably English Patient, but it's right around here because he made Strange Days a year after, which is one of the many hilarious, like, hacking movies from the mid-90s. And.

[Brian Koppelman]

No, I mean, but Amon Goethe is not. No, Amon Goethe is his high point.

[Craig]

Right?

[Brian Koppelman]

Schindler's.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but it's more like the. I always have to explain Apex Mountain.

[Craig]

It's.

[Bill Simmons]

When did he have the juice where you could. Where he. That he could have done whatever movie he wanted. It's. It's right around here.

[Brian Koppelman]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Because English patients 96. This is late 94. So it's somewhere in this mix. Paul Schofield. The answer is no. 1960s would be for him. Jack Barry. I don't know. I mean, everybody watched TV in 1958. I can't imagine, like, he was more famous than right here.

[Brian Koppelman]

No. Your refine's answer is really good. I like your answer.

[Bill Simmons]

Chris McDonald. Probably happy Gilmore. Geritol, definitely. Because it all comes crashing down in 1959. The Habsburg Lip, which gets mentioned as when Ray Fines is throwing it. Had you. Did you know what a Habsburg lip was?

[Brian Koppelman]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

And there's a jaw, too. I did Google Deep Dive. Knew. I didn't know about all this inbreeding with this one royal family, and it made their jaws kind of start doing this.

[Brian Koppelman]

Primo Carnera, maybe. Primo Carnera.

[Bill Simmons]

Primo Carnera. Might be.

[Brian Koppelman]

Might be that. Maybe that moment. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Nepo babies. Probably not. No quiz show movies. Yes. Because I can't think of a better quiz show movie. Turturro. No. Horrific Boston accents in a movie. I'm. I'm. I'm. It's bad, but I'm not gonna say it's the worst. There's.

[Brian Koppelman]

Okay, how about cigars in a movie?

[Bill Simmons]

Nah, there's been better cigars, I guess.

[Brian Koppelman]

But Sorvino was before. Yeah, Sorvino. And I guess Sorvino.

[Bill Simmons]

And here's my big one, Rob Morrow, who's still on Northern Exposure at this point when this movie comes out. And yet it's not his Apex Mountain because his Apex mountain was in 1992, as northern exposure was exploding, and he hosted Saturday Night Live. With musical guest Nirvana. Wow.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah, you. That.

[Bill Simmons]

That's it. That's like the definition of Apex Mountain. It was their first appearance, and it's pretty good. Bill, he's doing the TikTok Instagram. He's like, ladies and gentlemen, Nirvana. And then they just kick it as smell. It smells like Teen Spirit Cruiser. Hannah, who do you have?

[Brian Koppelman]

Cruz. No, I know Cruz.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz for what part?

[Brian Koppelman]

I think Cruz as Dick Goodwin would have been kind of amazing.

[Craig]

I think it's Cruz and Hanks. And Cruz is yuppie Van Doren. Hanks is Goodwin.

[Brian Koppelman]

But if you think about Cruz in the mode from Rain man, where he's just like a. In this. Where he's this, like, killer guy. Like in the beginning of the movie when he's like. They're making fun of him in the. All right, okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he. I think he over cruises the movie. Okay, wait, Craig, come on. For this. I think Cruz comes in. He's right in that. He's in. He made Few Good Men a year before. He's still in that cruise. Over the top. I gotta have one or two scenes where I do cruise stuff. And I don't think he pulls it back. I don't think he had the ability to pull it back enough as Goodwin. What do you think, Craig?

[Craig]

I think he just makes more sense as, like, the slick east coast wealthy. I think he could pull that off.

[Brian Koppelman]

As the slick guy who read. But he never. I don't think he. I think he chose his role so smart, but just so intelligently. Because I don't think he plays a guy who spent all that time in the library that Charles Van Dorn did.

[Craig]

That's fair. I don't know if he has that bookish appeal.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe.

[Craig]

I don't know if he could pull that off, but.

[Brian Koppelman]

So I was saying he studies in the firm. He studies in the firm, but it's like they're making me. You know, I gotta study. But you never feel like he's a guy who loves learning for the sake of learning, which is. That's the whole thing about these, you know, like. Like Van Dorn did know. That's that great moment when Turturro's like, say, a number, you know, and then he rattles off. It's like, these people did know an incredible amount of. They were really smart and educated. They just unfortunately were human.

[Bill Simmons]

I was gonna go late 80s Hanks as Van Doren, and he kind of. I think. I can't remember the movie. Maybe it was Volunteers where he played, like, a wealthy like hoity toady kind of character like this. But I, I think he could have done it. So you say Craig, you said Hanks or Cruz.

[Craig]

I, I'll go Hanks. I, I've been convinced that it's Hanks.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, Hanks wins. Scorsese or Spielberg? Ironically, Scorsese is in this. Who better director. I'm going to say Spielberg for this. Koppelman's wheels turn.

[Brian Koppelman]

Curtis Hansen.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's Scorsese or Spielberg.

[Brian Koppelman]

I think Curtis Hansen. I would say Scorsese.

[Bill Simmons]

What role would female Philip Seymour Hoffman have played?

[Brian Koppelman]

He would have been the best frickin Charles Van Doren who ever Charles Van Dorend.

[Bill Simmons]

It's funny, I, I think he could have played either the Azaria or the Pamer part. I think he absolutely could have played either Van Doren because older Philip Seymour Hoffman easily could have played the dad.

[Brian Koppelman]

Amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, he could have pick a point in his life. But yeah, I think that Charles Van Doren, like the early version when he was skinnier, like mid-90s maybe, probably could have done it.

[Brian Koppelman]

I mean my favorite, probably my favorite actor who ever lived.

[Bill Simmons]

So. Picking nits.

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Why didn't Herb just take the $69,000 at the start of the show and stop playing?

[Brian Koppelman]

Oh, I'm so you and I have the same knit, which is how did the money work? My knit is how did the money work? They never explain what are you risking?

[Bill Simmons]

They keep, they keep saying it's like you risk it all if you play again.

[Brian Koppelman]

Like, okay, because the real.

[Bill Simmons]

They want me to lose anyway. I'll take 70.

[Brian Koppelman]

Did you go look this part up? I know you do all the Internet research. I looked it up. I know the answers to some of this.

[Bill Simmons]

So what's the answer?

[Brian Koppelman]

They had side deals, man. Because it was rigged. They had side deals. So herb wasn't getting 70. He really was getting like 35k. Like they all made agreements that there was a give back and there was a certain amount. They were really getting like appearance fees. Like someone got 25k to be on the show. Van Dorent would pay you certain amounts of money as opposed to the prize money. The prize money was another fiction. But they never in the movie explain when they go, you're risking it. And even when we watch that thing, 2,000 a point. But what does that mean? Like they don't explain how the money works, which today you would have to. People would drive you too crazy. If you were making the movie, you'd have to explain it. But the movie works without It. But if I had to pick a nit, that's my nit, too. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, the bigger thing with this movie is back then, people actually really did care about what they were learning with the answers. There's still a Jeopardy. Audience that really cares about the actual facts and the questions and the things they're answering. But the society we have now with reality tv, these shows like the Wall or the show where the ball just bounces down and maybe goes into a hole, it's really about how much money somebody wins, and they just get dumber and dumber and dumber for the goal of just winning money. This was like a completely different era.

[Brian Koppelman]

100% like Scorsese says, just to make the questions dumber.

[Bill Simmons]

He lays it out.

[Brian Koppelman]

He lays it out in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

It's exactly what happened. The Reuben sandwich thing was another nitpick for me. I don't. To say only one person ever invented a sandwich is insane. Of course I could invent a sandwich right now.

[Brian Koppelman]

What about the earliest sandwich invented a sandwich?

[Bill Simmons]

Right. It's. And then my last nitpick was not nearly enough cigarette smoking. And it must be some sort of weird Redford thing. I think in the 1950s, everybody was smoking four packs a day, including all of the parents of my parents. Like, I just think every. I think there just should have been cigarette smoke everywhere. And Redford must have just hated cigarette smoke, is my guess, I think. What do you have for nitpicks? Anything?

[Brian Koppelman]

No, I had the money.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Sequel. Sequel, Prequel. Prestige tv, all black cast or untouchable? The prestige TV thing would be interesting if you brought in some of the other shows and the weird that was going on because there were other shows.

[Brian Koppelman]

That were 1950s corrupt television. You. Yeah, Was May. I mean, I guess Maisel touched on some. Not the corruption, but in that era of show business. Yes. You could make a prestige series about this.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if I'd watch it, but you could do it. Is this movie better than Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Mad Dog Russo, Doris Burke, Buffalo Bill, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Consort, Daniel Plainview, Long Legs, or Wilford Brimley in the Firm. I was thinking Teddy KGB is Herb Stemple. You want to do it? I'm trying to set you up for.

[Brian Koppelman]

A Teddy KGB just as Semple saying, like, pay me my money instead of pay that money about. No, at the end, I guess he would say about Van Doren, instead of saying they never leave you alone until they're leaving you alone, he would say Pay that man his money. Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

The man's got alligator blood.

[Brian Koppelman]

I can't take it.

[Bill Simmons]

I terrible Russian accent. Just want to ask her who gets it.

[Brian Koppelman]

We agree.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a screenplay.

[Brian Koppelman]

Paul Atanasio.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, right.

[Brian Koppelman]

Absolutely. 100% over. Over.

[Bill Simmons]

Redford.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah. Schofield's the number two for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Unanswerable questions. What was Geritol? I already answered it. It apparently made your blood stronger or something, or you feel fatigue. And this will. It's basically a caffeine pill.

[Brian Koppelman]

Mine is. What would Charles Van Dorn's life have been like if he never went and got on that game show? Not Herbie's life is Clear. But if Charles Van Doren just doesn't like. If Charles Van Doren says what you just said he should say. If he just says. I'm not answering that question because I know it already.

[Bill Simmons]

You already gave me that question in the audition.

[Brian Koppelman]

If he says it, what happens to his life? Van Dorn.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he becomes a hero.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah. He becomes president of a university. He's Larry Summers.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Could 21. Would you watch 21 right now if it came back in 2025? I think I would not.

[Brian Koppelman]

Well, if Kimmel's hosting and it's like Millionaire and it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Kimmel's a really good host for game shows.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, a good host in general, but he's a good game show host.

[Brian Koppelman]

I mean, if Kimmel's hosting, I might give it a whirl.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, and then we already answered. What would you do if you were in this situation? We think the answer is you flip.

[Brian Koppelman]

I like the thing that. I mean, we've listened. We've both been in situations where we've spoken out. Even at risk to ourselves, we both have done it.

[Bill Simmons]

So you just did it to Soderbergh. You blew his cover.

[Brian Koppelman]

He was not said that. And I did not say anything except that he would make a grab. Made a great movie.

[Bill Simmons]

What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie? I'd take the painting of the dad.

[Brian Koppelman]

Same scene somewhere. Same scene, different answer. I want the silverware box.

[Bill Simmons]

You want all the silverware? Okay. The Coach Finstock award for best life lesson. Speculation in our society has a way of becoming fact. Pretty true.

[Brian Koppelman]

My answer would be, not till you have a kid of your own.

[Bill Simmons]

Best double feature choice. What do you got?

[Brian Koppelman]

Brasco.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I like that. I was gonna say the English Patient. You could just go. You could finds it up just double digit.

[Brian Koppelman]

I think Brasco Might be better though, because of the better answer thing. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Who won the movie? I'm gonna say Redford because I think this was the last really, really cool thing he directed. But kind of the end of this, this renaissance that we talked about in Sneakers where, you know, he had it in the 70s, obviously, then the 80s made that comeback and did the Natural and Out of Africa and was just, I'm the president again. And then the 90s had this one last run with. As a movie star, as a director with Sundance. And this is kind of the, the tale of it all. Right, time to bring in Craig. Can't wait. I have no idea what I feel like. He liked it. He seems in a good mood.

[Craig]

I did like it. I really hadn't heard of this movie and probably because it got shadowed by all the other great stuff that came out in 94. But I love all the movies about. There are certain movies where the industry looks inward on itself that I think should be required viewing for people who are studying, you know, media or film majors or whatever. Like, like my double feature would be network or, you know, the Player. Stuff like that. I, I love all that type of inward looking stuff. What I really enjoyed about this movie was that like the themes got stronger throughout. In the beginning it was a little bit more of just like, oh, there's a game show that's cheating. And then by the end, the themes are so much bigger than that. And I, I really like the ending. I, I didn't know how it was going to end. I obviously, I knew it was a true story, so. But I, but I didn't know what actually happened. I was really happy. It wasn't just the montage of like the tropiness of the people all going to jail or everybody gets locked up. And I enjoyed that. It was actually the Van Doren confession was commended by everybody and all of the themes just resonated much harder the way it ended because it kind of ends on this, this icky feeling at the end. And I didn't exactly know where it was going, so I appreciated that. And I mean, yeah, being tricked by mass media, nepotism, classism, all this stuff is very resonant today. So I loved it. That was great.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a Good point. In 2025, this movie is still awesome to watch because of all the themes that are in the movie. All of them are still relevant, Literally all of them.

[Craig]

I mean, like the advent of television and kind of the idea of what is reality. I mean, you could even make that parallel to AI Right now, where it's like the advent of AI is also kind of now changing what reality is, and everything is under the guise of entertainment.

[Brian Koppelman]

Yeah. The only thing I want to say at the end of this, I agree with everything you're saying, is that if you just Paul Atanasio as the last tie. I just want to say, like, I don't know, I said I spoke to him today, but we're not, like, friends. But that guy. I mean, co creates House, Right. With David Shore. So he invents that character, which makes total sense that he made these geniuses up. And he made that genius up. Co creates Homicide, writes Brasco. That guy is not nearly as famous as he should be. He is one of the titans of screenwriting and in a way, a successor to Goldman. In lots of ways, he's right up there with Scott Frank and Tony Gilroy. I think, like, one of the true greats. And this movie and Brasco together are really a very rare accomplishment also.

[Craig]

I think what's aged the worst is 60 million people watching a game show every week. That's half of the super bowl every week.

[Brian Koppelman]

Bill, did you say it was 25? Are you sure? The highest it ever got in the ratings was like, 20 something.

[Craig]

They said 60 in the movie.

[Brian Koppelman]

60 million, so nobody.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but it was. It was the 21st big. Yeah, there were 20 bigger shows at over 60 million.

[Brian Koppelman]

That's crazy, man.

[Craig]

That's unbelievable. Unfathomable.

[Bill Simmons]

There was nothing else to do. Like, it was radio or TV or you went to a movie.

[Brian Koppelman]

People watch bowling on Saturday afternoons or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretty crazy. Well, that's it for Redford Month. I know there's one week left in the month, but we do a horror movie every year in the last week of.

[Craig]

I'm dreading that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Craig doesn't like horror movies.

[Brian Koppelman]

Me, I don't either.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'm. I'm trying to convince CR to do Halloween, too, because now that we handle that, now that we have the new studio and we have the giant Myers poster in the studio and Myers is right there, I feel like we have to pay homage, but I don't know, we're still hashing it out. Anyway, that's coming next week, produced by Craig, as always, thanks to Ronick and thanks to Gahau as well. Thanks to Brian Koppelman. You're almost a member of the Ten Timers Club.

[Brian Koppelman]

Well, listen, you're so close to. I can't. Thank you. I think this is nine. I think this is the ninth time.

[Bill Simmons]

I know you got one More.

[Brian Koppelman]

All right, listen, I gotta say, I really. I know you did this partially because you knew how much it meant to me, and it really does. I love this movie so much and I want people to do it. And Bill, as always, you're a great friend. Thanks, everyone, for.

[Bill Simmons]

This is a great movie, though. I'm glad you forced us to do it. Nick's prediction before we go over, under 52 and a half.

[Brian Koppelman]

You called me and you said 52 and a half, right? I gotta go over. I gotta go over. I love that you guys had cat at like 16.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, the Ringer 100. Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

I had certain. As you know, I had certain issues with the Ringer 100. But yeah, a couple things. But. But I love that you guys had both Kat and Jalen in really nice spots.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you have a Steelers prediction for Craig? The four and two Steelers.

[Brian Koppelman]

I know, I know, I know. I know where they are. Good luck, Craig.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig. I think it's a three way horrible.

[Brian Koppelman]

From a Jets fan. You know, bad.

[Craig]

I said last week that you should bet the Ravens to win the nfc.

[Brian Koppelman]

Can you guys explain to me why? I know this is off subject, but I just want to understand it. What is the logic that people rarely fire NFL coaches during this season? I've never understood it. Can. Can you explain?

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's. I think it's too big of a. It's too hard with how the schedule of the games is. Right.

[Craig]

It's just a terrible. Look, you're tanking the season. You're torpedoing the vibe in the locker room. It's just like you just blow everything up and then.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's like.

[Brian Koppelman]

But. But when you're 06 and there's just no sign of any possibility.

[Craig]

Dan Campbell, when he came to the Lions, I think he started 0 and 8 or 1 in 10.

[Bill Simmons]

Aaron Glenn has been bringing that up over and over again.

[Brian Koppelman]

Campbell, you cool guys going to be there at the start of the season next year?

[Craig]

I mean, probably not, but after that.

[Bill Simmons]

London game, I'm a little dubious after the clock management.

[Craig]

It's hard with the culture. The culture guys take time and you kind of have to build that up. So you really have to find a front office that'll commit to you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Brian Koppelman]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig. Craig. I think the AFC north comes down to Baltimore and Pittsburgh in week 18. That's just preordained. There's no way. I don't know what their records have to be, but it's just going to come down to that game.

[Craig]

No, it has to be I think.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to roll Sunday night.

[Craig]

They're both going to be 9 and 8 or 9 and 7. And they will be playing each other.

[Bill Simmons]

That's correct. All right, Brian Koppelman, thank you.

[Brian Koppelman]

Thanks, guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you. We'll see you next week. Bye, everybody.