‘Rocky II’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

Summary

The Rewatchables – ‘Rocky II’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

Date: December 2, 2025
Participants: Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan (CR), Van Lathan, Craig

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Episode Overview

This episode features Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan diving deep into Rocky II (1979). This is the podcast’s twelfth Sylvester Stallone-centric film and revisits the continuation of one of cinema’s most iconic underdog stories. The hosts dissect the film’s legacy, structure, and place within the larger “Rocky” franchise, discussing why it stands as a crucial turning point not just for Rocky Balboa, but also for its star, writer, and director—Sylvester Stallone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sequels & The Rocky Franchise (04:03–07:59)

• Rocky II marks a transition from the first film’s character drama to the sports-action franchise that defined the ‘80s.
  • Van Lathan: “This movie is kind of the actual beginning of the Rocky franchise as being a sports action movie franchise. The first one is a very small drama… but this movie… the world is forming for the lore of Rocky to deepen and become what it’s going to become.” (05:36)
• It’s described as a “remastered” or “remake” sequel, closely following the structure of the original but with some technical upgrades and emotional tweaks.
  • Sierra: “What I like so much about Rocky II is that it is essentially a remastered version of Rocky… beat for beat, the story is relatively the same.” (06:45)

2. The Purity and Impact of Sequels (08:00–10:21)

• The hosts discuss how sequels became a moneymaking strategy in Hollywood, with Rocky II exemplifying both the desire to revisit beloved characters and the risk of diminishing originality.
  • Bill Simmons: “This was the purest form of a sequel where that Rocky, the original one, had a beginning, middle, and end. And it was supposed to end. And then people loved the character… And then everybody was kind of like, can this guy come back?” (08:00)
• Simmons recalls the memorable communal experience of seeing Rocky II in theaters, where fans cheered “like it was a real sporting event.” (09:00)

3. Structural Critiques—The Pacing and “Coma” (10:21–11:35, 33:15–34:10)

• The film’s pacing, especially the infamous “coma” sequence (an 11-minute real-time interlude), draws both affection and criticism.
  • Sierra: “This is only rewatchable in the sense that if you do not know where it’s going, it is unwatchable.” (10:38)
  • Bill Simmons: “Think how long 11 minutes is… but it does lead to—she finally wakes up and says, yeah, about that fight. I just want one thing. Win.” (33:15)
• The slow, methodical sections are contrasted with the final 28 minutes, often cited as some of the best in sports film history.

4. Stallone’s Career, Directorial Control & The Look of “Rocky” (12:20–15:04)

• The hosts break down how Stallone used Rocky II to regain his status after a couple of flops (“FIST,” “Paradise Alley”) and insisted on directing to ensure creative control.
  • Bill Simmons: “Stallone basically says, I have to direct or I’m not gonna be involved… $7 million budget, makes $200.1 million… sets up the next 15 years of him being an A plus lister because he proved people wanted to come back to see Sly Stone.” (13:41)
• Discussion of Stallone’s changing physique, rumors about steroid use, and how his look evolves throughout the franchise.

5. The Climactic Last 28 Minutes & Iconic Running Scene (16:02–17:48)

• The final act (the training montage, kids chasing Rocky, and the climactic fight) is highly celebrated for its emotional payoff and pure cinematic inspiration.
  • Van Lathan: “Just Rocky running with all the kids after all of this time. It should not be moving. But you want the guy to win. You want that guy to figure his life out… the scene gets the whales out of you.” (16:25)
  • Discussion of the logistics and length of Rocky’s run through Philadelphia (30.2 miles, possibly the most unrealistic training montage in sports cinema).

6. Character Analyses: Apollo Creed, Pauly, and Mickey

• Apollo Creed is dissected as both a Muhammad Ali homage and as a fascinatingly complex, emotionally driven, and ultimately tragic figure.
  • Sierra: “He’s also, right at that moment… playing three different characters. There’s the character in the ring, at home, and… who is just being filmed at press conferences…” (21:54)
• Paulie is called “the most big time fucking scumbag character I’ve ever seen,” and the podcast ponders the tradition of the “plague” supporting character in both Rocky and other sports films.
• Mickey’s over-the-top, gravelly coaching is both beloved and lampooned, with Bill debating whether it’s one of the great supporting roles or simply too much.

7. Real-Life Boxing Parallels & Ebert/Ali Commentary (18:11–20:07)

• The hosts share Roger Ebert’s memories of watching the film with Muhammad Ali, who saw Apollo as a clear self-portrait and critiqued Stallone’s boxing as “acting, not boxing.”
  • Ali's Quote: “For the black man to come out superior would be against all America’s teachings. I have been so great at boxing, they had to create an image like Rocky—a white image on the screen to counteract my image in the ring.” (19:41)
• Ali predicted Adrian would recover and Rocky would win—a prophecy that plays out in the film.

8. The Training Montages and Sports Movie Logic (34:10–39:52)

• The podcast dissects the duality of the Rocky and Apollo training montages, contrasting neighborhood camaraderie and community (Rocky) with ego-driven, punishing solo work (Apollo).
  • Van Lathan: “Rocky is training in his neighborhood… whereas Apollo’s training is ego driven and focused on himself. It’s clear they’re fighting for different things.” (38:43)
• Discusses the over-the-top nature of 15-round fights, the plausibility of the double-KO ending, and the alleged real-life tension between Stallone and Carl Weathers during filming the final fight.

9. Awards & Category Highlights

• Sasha Jenkins Award for The Guy I Can’t Believe Isn’t a Bigger Star: Carl Weathers gets universal praise for his range, charisma, and physicality. (52:52)
• Best Use of Running in Movies: Stallone’s sprint with the kids is hailed as the “best running in film history.”
• Notable Needle Drops: “Gonna Fly Now” accompanying the training montage is called out as a classic sports movie music cue.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The last 28 minutes of the movie… is the best run of a rewatchable movie. Every single moment is perfect.”
  — Bill Simmons (16:02–16:23)

• “I have been so great at boxing, they had to create an image like Rocky—a white image on the screen to counteract my image in the ring.”—Muhammad Ali quoted by Roger Ebert (19:41)

• “What are we waiting for?” — a phrase the hosts propose renaming their “OK, Motherfucker” benchmark category to, because it signals the moment a rewatchable movie truly kicks into its highest gear (35:01–36:38)

• “Rocky II is the most important of the Rocky movies to me.”
  — Van Lathan (05:17)

• “It assumes that you care so deeply about the character. Because if you don’t, you just don’t care about Adrienne getting her part time job at the pet shop… But at the end, that’s kind of why it works, is because when he’s holding that belt at the end of the movie, all of those feelings just come pouring out of you.”
  — Van Lathan (11:06)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 04:03 – Breakdown of Stallone’s catalog and where Rocky II fits (+ franchise comparisons)
• 05:17 – Van Lathan on why Rocky II matters most
• 06:45 – Sierra: “Remake” sequel structure analysis
• 09:00 – Simmons recalls seeing Rocky II in a cheering theater
• 10:38–11:35 – Critique/defense of the infamous “coma” sequence
• 13:41 – Stallone’s power move for directing/creative control
• 16:02–17:48 – The legendary final act and running scene
• 18:11–20:07 – Ebert/Ali’s real-world context and commentary
• 21:54 – Apollo Creed as multi-level character; race and media discussion
• 33:15–34:10 – Analysis of coma sequence and the “Well, what are we waiting for?” category
• 35:01–36:38 – Proposal to rename the “OK, Motherfucker” rewatchable movie benchmark
• 38:43–39:52 – Contrasts in the training montages
• 46:06 – ‘70s/‘80s boxing (15-round fights, hate mail, Roberto Duran cameo)
• 52:52–53:58 – Carl Weathers appreciation segment

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Fun Facts & Half-Assed Internet Research

• Rocky’s epic run: If accurate, his run through Philly covers 30.2 miles—well over a marathon, culminating in the dead sprint up the Art Museum steps. (39:41–39:52)
• Stallone’s filming accident: The “fight right-handed” subplot may have been forced by a real weightlifting injury to Stallone’s pectoral muscle, though the hosts debate the veracity of this claim. (48:22)
• 800 children: Were used as extras in the running montage. (85:28)
• Roger Ebert wrote a feature on viewing Rocky II with Ali—Ali called out Stallone’s “acting, not boxing,” but the experience lent the film a unique layer of authenticity. (18:11–19:45)
• Adrian’s coma: Not just a creative choice—it was written in because Talia Shire was filming another movie and unavailable for part of the shoot. (49:17)

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1979 & Sports Movie Tropes

• Mortgage jokes: Buying a Philly house for $16k with a 9.5% rate—“Aged the worst: a young couple being able to afford a house.” (44:37)
• 15-round fights & regular TV title bouts: Hallmarks of boxing’s past, now replaced by international PPV spectacles. (47:25)
• Hate mail instead of tweets: “It’s a lot of energy to write out a letter. Dear Apollo, kill yourself. Fuck you… Sincerely, Chris Ryan.” (47:48)

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Rewatchable Categories (Selected Winners/Speculation)

• Sasha Jenkins Award: Carl Weathers
• Dion Waiters Award: Brent Musburger—inspired, semi-ad-libbed color commentary
• Best Movie Runner: Stallone, beating Tom Cruise for realism and intensity
• Biggest Weak Link: Paulie’s character and Rocky’s implausible victory (61:02)
• Best Needle Drop: “Gonna Fly Now” during the running montage (57:20)
• Best Piece of Memorabilia: The Beast aftershave bottle or Apollo’s trunks
• Best Life Lesson: “Don’t read your hate mail”; “Listen to your trainer”

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Hot Takes & Alternate Endings

• Sierra: “If [Stallone] had listened to his more sensitive, creative side, this movie would have been called Creed and it would have been the Godfather II of sports movies.” (73:12)
• Van Lathan: “Rocky and Apollo’s lives would have been much better if they swapped wives.” (74:29)
• Simmons: “Best looking black women of the 1970s—Apollo’s wife (Sylvia Meals) makes the list.” (75:38)

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Overall Tone

Candid, nostalgic, and irreverent—these are movie fans who mix sincere appreciation with comedic digs and half-earnest fan theories. The spirit is debate, celebration, and poking fun—often at the film, each other, and the very idea of Hollywood sequels.

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Final Verdict

While Rocky II is structurally slower and more methodical than its predecessor or its more bombastic sequels, the hosts agree that its emotional payoff is huge and critical for transitioning Rocky from gritty ‘70s character drama to a pure-blooded ‘80s sports franchise.

Who won the movie?
Unanimous: Sylvester Stallone—writer, star, director, and the man whose creative will turned Rocky Balboa into a global icon.

“He directed, wrote it… [Rocky II] sets up the next 15 years for him being an A plus lister.”
— Bill Simmons (13:41; 109:03)

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Listen for:

• The deep-dive breakdown of structural movie remakes as sequels (06:45)
• The “Well, what are we waiting for?” discussion (35:01)
• The legendary running montage (16:25)
• Carl Weathers and the alternate Creed II perspective (73:12)
• Ali’s razor-sharp take on the existence of “Rocky” (19:41)

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For newcomers and Rocky veterans alike, this episode is a love letter to the franchise’s heart and heartache—equal parts hilarious, nostalgic, and insightful.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

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[Craig]

Here I am.

[Bill Simmons]

Big hit episode with Vince Gilligan.

[Sierra]

Yeah. Was it a hit?

[Bill Simmons]

It seemed like it was a hit.

[Sierra]

Thanks.

[Bill Simmons]

People want to know about Pluribus.

[Sierra]

Yeah. Have you checked it out over the Thanksgiving weekend?

[Bill Simmons]

Saving it.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I heard it's good.

[Van Lathan]

Really good. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Van Lathan. Higher learning. Absolutely. Ringer. Tailgate. Red hot show right now with all the LSU drama going crazy. So much happening and then the pew.

[Van Lathan]

Pew, pew, pew, Midnight boys. Forgot the name of the podcast.

[Sierra]

I'm actually the new head coach of North Texas. I'm gonna be leaving the Ringer.

[Van Lathan]

You like that? Going over there to take the job.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Before we get to the pod, somebody sent me a video. Somebody went through all the HBO movies from the 80s and how many times they aired and did a top 50. It's on YouTube. I'll tweet it out.

[Van Lathan]

This is my. This is right up my alley. I love this.

[Sierra]

Where do they get this data?

[Bill Simmons]

He went through somehow every single week of HBO programming. Couple highlights. Eddie and the cruisers, 16th most airings.

[Van Lathan]

Eddie and the Cruisers. I don't know if that was too.

[Bill Simmons]

High or too low. It was just on all the time.

[Van Lathan]

I thought this was HBO original movies. Okay.

[Sierra]

My bad.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Victory, fifth. Lone Wolf, McQuaid I thought was going to be really high. It was only 37th. I thought that was disappointing.

[Sierra]

The distortion field of your own nostalgia.

[Bill Simmons]

Number one, Bill Cosby himself.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I was on all the time.

[Sierra]

Remember?

[Bill Simmons]

It was a devastated number one. It was 25 minutes of.

[Van Lathan]

But you got to keep it real, though, man.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It was like, what's the number one movie gonna be? And it was Bill Cosby himself.

[Sierra]

Well, I'm shocked this list hasn't been publicized before.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, and you gotta keep it real. Remember the bit about the son playing.

[Bill Simmons]

Football when Bill Cosby himself was on all the time?

[Van Lathan]

Bill Cosby himself?

[Sierra]

Woody Allen's Manhattan number two with a bullet.

[Bill Simmons]

Eddie and the cruiser's 16th. The streets are just shouting for the rewatchables. We just need it somewhere. Streaming.

[Van Lathan]

What an awful lot.

[Bill Simmons]

We have Tubi, we have Howdy. We have Pluto. One of these places pump up the volume.

[Sierra]

Without a streaming option, do you feel like people just have to be able to see it, though?

[Bill Simmons]

I want people to see it. You've seen it, right?

[Van Lathan]

Eddie and the cruises, of course.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. All right.

[Van Lathan]

Have you seen Eddie in the Cruisers 2? Eddie lives.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't like that movie as much. I don't like when we go to Canada with Eddie and he's working construction. Not on my list. That did not make the top 50. A movie that we're about to do is our 12th Sylvester Stallone movie. A movie we've been circling for a while. Rocky 2 is next. This episode of the Rewatchables is presented by State Farm. Whether you're debating watching that award winning sports drama or rewatching your comfort buddy comedy Movie for the 10th time, choices are important when it comes to choosing coverage. A State Farm agent can help you find options that are right for you. Go online@state farm.com or use the award winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, guys, it's our 12th Sylvester Stallone movie. Rocky II. We've done three, we've done four. We've done one, we've done Creed.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Haven't done two. I'm gonna go through the Stallone movies we've done. He's now tied for fourth all time.

[Sierra]

This is a great example of executive unitary theory, where this is like you putting your. With your sheer act of will. Just making Stallone top four phrase.

[Bill Simmons]

Arguably not enough Stallone.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, what do we need?

[Bill Simmons]

Say, like, there's five we haven't done. I like daylight. I like lockup.

[Van Lathan]

Daylight's lockup.

[Bill Simmons]

I like nighthawks. You're scraping the nighthawks is cool.

[Van Lathan]

Nighthawks.

[Bill Simmons]

So he's tied for fourth all time now with Denzel. Here's what we've done. So we did Rocky, the most important Stallone movie. We did Rocky III. I think the most entertaining. Rocky IV, the most 80s. Yeah. Personification of 80s. Stallone.

[Van Lathan]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

First Blood, I think the best 80s.

[Sierra]

Best 80s? What?

[Bill Simmons]

Best 80s? Stallone movie.

[Sierra]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Victory. Most underrated. Beloved Cobra. Most ridiculous. Over the top. Best bad movie he's ever made. Tank on Cash. Guilty as pleasure. Oh, tank one cash cliffhanger. I think his best 90s movie, Copland. His biggest swing. Creed. Best 21st century movie he made.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So what is Rocky II?

[Van Lathan]

Rocky II? Rocky II is the most important of the Rocky movies to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, explain.

[Van Lathan]

So I was trying to figure out why I like Rocky II so much. Like I told you, I like the movie. Yeah, I love it. It's one of my favorite ones.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not a hot take. The last 28 minutes of the movie.

[Sierra]

Of Rocky II or Rocky 1, you're.

[Bill Simmons]

Talking about Rocky 2.

[Van Lathan]

So there's two reasons why I like the movie so much. Number one, this movie plays like an HBO 247 episode.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So when you watch HBO 24 7, it's all a slice of life. It's. This is what I'm buying. These are the commercials that I'm going to. This is the life of a pro fighter. And then at the end of it, it's the fight. And this is how that movie really is. There's really not much plot happening. It's like a long HBO 247 movie. And then whereas Rocky stands alone as this, the original Rocky, should I say stands alone as this incredible dramatic achievement. This movie is kind of the actual beginning of the Rocky franchise as this being a sports action movie franchise. The first one is a very small drama and it's more about, you know, the life of this guy, this big shot that he takes. But this movie is the movie where you're in this world and the world is forming for the lore of Rocky to deepen and become what it's going to become. And I like this version of it. The over the top, super muscled us against the Russians. That's the Rocky that I like more than the understated version of it.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have, Ciara?

[Sierra]

Yeah, I mean, I think that this movie for me, Van makes a really good point that this is like the beginning of the Rocky saga and the Rocky franchise. What I like so much about Rocky 2 is that it is essentially a remastered version of Rocky. It's essentially a remake. I mean, you know, you start with. But I call it a remastered version because in the first 10 minutes are essentially the end of Rocky with some technical embellishments. I think they're using the same footage, but I believe that they ran it through some processing to make it look a little bit better. They did some insert shots, and then for the most part, beat for beat, the story is relatively the same. A guy who's down in his luck, who finds a girl, who finds a trainer, who finally finds the will to fight against impossible odds. And then everything for the last 30, 40 minutes is right out of rocky one, essentially, in terms of, like, the training, the montage, the entrance to the fight, everything like that. You just have some different emotions going on there. So, yeah, I think that this is an example of something I wish Hollywood almost would try more of, which is essentially the sequel that is just a remake.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, it's interesting because I don't feel like we talked about sequels before on rewatchables. Like, somewhere in the late 70s into the early 80s, sequels became. Oh, we should.

[Sierra]

Expanding.

[Bill Simmons]

This is like a huge money opportunity. We should do this. This was like the mo. The purest form of a sequel where that Rocky, the original one, had a beginning, middle, and end. And it was supposed to end. And then people loved the character. It won the Oscar. And then everybody was kind of like, can this guy come back?

[Van Lathan]

I just want to hang out with Rocky Moore.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because I saw this in the theater. I remember what it was. Another one. I. I went with my best friend, Reese Genser, Cleveland Circle. And it was the only thing I've heard Reese before.

[Van Lathan]

What are these names?

[Sierra]

Where'd Reese go?

[Van Lathan]

What happened to Reese?

[Bill Simmons]

He was my best friend in first, second, third grade.

[Sierra]

What'd he do?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know.

[Sierra]

What'd he do to you, though?

[Bill Simmons]

He dropped schools, and that was it.

[Van Lathan]

All right, so Reese switched schools, and there's no more Reese.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, I'm sure he exists.

[Van Lathan]

So what is it up to?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm sure he's doing great. I don't know. So Reese has never emails. No, we exchanged emails a while ago.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. Oh, okay.

[Sierra]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

What do you say?

[Bill Simmons]

How come you never talk about how you doing?

[Van Lathan]

He's like, Reese is like. Reese is listening to a bunch of pods. Yeah.

[Sierra]

He's like, we saw Rocky 2 together.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he'll reach out again.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

But we saw this, and it was the only time in my life I remember, and I think I've talked about this before. The entire theater cheering like it was a real sporting event, like, for real. And it was a lot of kids, and everybody just wanted Rocky to win. And people. It was like we were on closed circuit watching, like, Leonard Hearns. Are you going to make a. No, go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they wanted Rocky to win. They brought it. Well, they wanted Rocky to Eat three.

[Bill Simmons]

And the double knockdown was an all time, like, oh, my God. And they did a really good job of the announcer going. Although they bent the rules, but it's like whoever gets up first and you're just like. They set the stakes perfectly. And everyone went nuts when he won. Like, nuts.

[Sierra]

I got to be honest, I'm not entirely sure. I think that I may have spent some of my. A significant part of my life thinking Rocky II was Rocky one.

[Van Lathan]

Oh.

[Sierra]

Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not sure if I even saw it.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, they kind of merged together into one giant movie.

[Van Lathan]

You know what's funny? When we did Rocky 1, when I rewatched it, I kept waiting for the scene where Mickey tells Rocky that he shouldn't fight Apollo because his eye. Because of his eye, because he's too slow. If I could get that shot on you, think about what Creed would do to you. He's gonna hurt you permanent. But it's actually in the second movie.

[Sierra]

Yeah, Yeah. I think they do bleed together. They are 1A and 1B of one big movie.

[Bill Simmons]

In some ways, it's an interesting. From a rewatchable standpoint. And there's a reason we waited to do it, because, you know, when you see it the first time, second time, third time, but after 45, 50, almost 50 years of this movie, there's about an hour where you're like, I think I'm good.

[Sierra]

Yeah. You know, I would call this the.

[Bill Simmons]

Coma scene's 11 minutes.

[Sierra]

This is only rewatchable in the sense that if you do not know where it's going, it is unwatchable. Like, if you are watching this for the first time or the first time in a really long time, you're like.

[Van Lathan]

Holy shit, nothing's happening.

[Sierra]

How many jobs is this guy gonna get and get fired from? And then now Adrian's in a coma. It feels like he's reading to her again.

[Bill Simmons]

It feels like a series of deleted scenes on YouTube where it's like deleted scenes. Rocky 2, but it's the actual movie for 45 minutes.

[Van Lathan]

But back to your point, it assumes that you care so deeply about the character.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Because if you don't, you just don't care about Adrienne getting her part time job at the pet shop back.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

It just assumes a deep connection to the characters. And at the end, that's kind of why it works, is because when he's holding that belt at the end of the movie, all of those feelings just come pouring out of you.

[Bill Simmons]

It's kind of brilliant how they do it, but I don't know how rewatchably fun it is to watch his dignity just get stripped away.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

Watching him in the meat packing plant or getting rejected at the temple.

[Bill Simmons]

Doing the boxing gym.

[Sierra]

The guy's a big bucket closer.

[Bill Simmons]

Huge.

[Van Lathan]

Nitpick.

[Sierra]

Why?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's too famous to work as a trainer, number one, or not even a trainer.

[Van Lathan]

As a guy I've been in a lot. Janitor, basically in a lot of boxing gyms all over this city and other cities. He just not would not be treated that way. Just no way. He would. They would not treat him like that. Like up at Phil, sometimes Zab Judah will come in. Donna Dragon Wilson will come in. This just doesn't matter. He would not. Guys who have even had like five or 10 pro fights, you looked at as like a different species in a gym like that. And there are other pros in there. He just. They wouldn't have. They would in no way, shape or form somebody that just went to war like that. Would they have treated him that way?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the good news is that's not even one of the 10 most ridiculous things about this movie, including that he's blind in his right eye and goes 15 rounds with Creed. This was a big movie for Stallone. Cr cause between Rocky 1 and 2 comes out with Fist. When was the last time you cranked out Fist?

[Sierra]

I'm not sure I've ever seen Fist.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Does Sean even own Fist on Blu Ray, you think? Maybe Black Friday sale and the Kino Lorber site shots. Grabbing fist. 78%.

[Sierra]

We should live call Sean and be like, do you own this on 4k?

[Bill Simmons]

He definitely does. So fist bombed, and then he directed and starred in Paradise Alley, which seemed good on paper, but that also flopped.

[Sierra]

And is that like a Great Depression kind of comedy?

[Bill Simmons]

I've never seen that. People are like, can you just be Rocky again?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

But he uses that to his advantage.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Sierra]

Right. So, I mean, you tell the story of the making the film, but yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I can do that quick. Completes the screenplay in 77, calls it Rocky 2 Redemption. Strong title. Was supposed to get John Avildson a direct, but he's doing Saturday Night Fever, a good movie that we've done on the rewatch.

[Sierra]

Alvidson later says he's like, I wasn't super pumped to just remake the same movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

But had had conversations with Stallone about some interesting wrinkles that Rocky's character could go through that we can talk about later.

[Bill Simmons]

Stallone basically says, I have to direct or I'M not gonna be involved. Studio breaks $7 million budget. He gets a lot of points. And it becomes the highest grossing sequel ever. It holds the record until Empire Strikes Back, two years later or one year later. $7 million budget, makes 200.1 million, and then is on cable for the next 48 years. So this is about as good as it could be for him and sets up the 80s for him. More importantly, sets up Nighthawks, Victory, First Blood, Rambo, everything. It sets up the next 15 years of him being an A plus lister because he proved people wanted to come back to see Sly Stone. It's interesting, though. He's like a heavier. I don't. I don't. I don't know what happened between Rocky 2 and Victory, basically two years later. But his face.

[Van Lathan]

You don't know what happened?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I don't know whether he just, like, stopped eating bread or.

[Van Lathan]

What do you think happened?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he got thinner. You think he had surgery?

[Van Lathan]

He's on steroids.

[Bill Simmons]

But he's. He's big. I think he was on steroids in one and two, though.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, but his body better.

[Bill Simmons]

Steroids.

[Sierra]

It's 70s steroids.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, like the 70s make you water retention. Steroids.

[Van Lathan]

Well, he starts. He probably has more money, has different steroids. He can get. He gets more into it, and then things are changing along those fronts. But obviously, by the time he used.

[Bill Simmons]

Steroids, O Drago did true Rocky force.

[Van Lathan]

He's just lifting and all of that stuff. That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

He's lifting Paulie in the sled. But yeah, so it's kind of a doughier, very 70s Stallone.

[Van Lathan]

But then that's coming along. And by the time three comes, he's like a action figure. He's like, not. He's. He.

[Bill Simmons]

Man, he's one of those people. In Rocky 1 and 2. You could have told me he was 6, 4, and I could have believed it as a little kid. But he was really, like, what, five, seven and a half? Yeah, small casting, whatever. What do you think? Do you have a steroids take Craig. Rocky.

[Craig]

I don't. I don't know how. If he was on steroids. Yeah, but he's 100 million percent on steroids in 3 and 4. You can't look like that. 4.

[Van Lathan]

The whole. He's his whole body.

[Sierra]

By the time we get to, he's, like, fully oiled up all the time. In three.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. By the time we get to even First Blood Part 2, it's obvious that he's training hard and he's on something.

[Craig]

He could Be natural in one and two, maybe.

[Bill Simmons]

So the big calling card of this movie, as it was on marathons forever and ever, was how good the last 28 minutes are. The moment we get Mick going, what are we waiting for? This is the best movie of all time. It might be the best run of a rewatchable movie. Every single moment is perfect.

[Sierra]

It might be the best running in film history.

[Van Lathan]

You know what? I'm so shocked. I'm so shocked at how moved I was rewatching it. The scene just works. It's timeless. It's classic. Just Rocky running with all the kids after all of this time. It should not be moving. But you want the guy to win. You want that guy to figure his life out. I still don't think I want him to beat Apollo. But he's running with the kids, and the scene gets the whales out of you.

[Sierra]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I was the exact same age of those kids, and I think that might have been the coolest moment of my life to that point. Just the. The chance that kids my age got to run.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

With Rocky, like, broke your brain. It's like, oh, I'm so jealous of all 800 of these kids. Specifically the one who turns into Carl Lewis for like two seconds trying to keep up with him. One of the great athletes in the history.

[Sierra]

He runs right by my old little league field on the parkway there.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, you showed me. Yeah, showed me when we were in Philly.

[Bill Simmons]

There's some controversial how long he ran that we'll get into later. But that kid who keeps up with.

[Sierra]

Him, I would also say his pace is unsustainable.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

He's sprinting.

[Van Lathan]

I just thought about a young bill in Boston, like, stalking out joggers, trying.

[Sierra]

To run behind, wishing that, like Gordie Howe coming out of a store with six cases of beer.

[Bill Simmons]

You're just playing in Philadelphia and Rocky's running by and you're like, come on, let's join him.

[Van Lathan]

And he's got a whole.

[Bill Simmons]

In this jogging pack. There's no Ebert review of this movie. But on tv, Siskel said he loved it and that he was looking forward to Rocky iii. That it is Siskel and Ebert. Ebert said, I really did enjoy it, and he thought the sequels fight scene was better. But the big thing is he wrote a piece about watching this with Muhammad. Very cool.

[Sierra]

Very cool piece. It's on the Ebert site. I guess maybe that's why he didn't review it, is because he wrote a feature, which is. Did he write a lot of features.

[Bill Simmons]

That Was a pretty unusual piece. It's. It's a pretty famous Ebert piece. And Ali had not gotten the tar beaten out of him by Holmes yet. So he was still relatively coherent. Some of the Ali highlights, he, you know, obviously identified with Apollo Creed. He said, Apollo sounds like me insulting the opponent of the press to get him psyched out. That's me exactly. He criticized Stallone's boxing. Says it's good acting, it's not boxing. And he points to a guy in training in the background. Says, that guy in the red trunks back there, you can see he's a real fighter. This was interesting. He talked about he don't feel like fighting because his wife is sick. That's the truth. The same thing happened to me when I was in training camp during one of my divorces. You can't keep your mind on fighting when you're thinking about a woman. I don't know if this is true for your training. For me, yeah, it helps me to think about different.

[Van Lathan]

Onlyfans models.

[Bill Simmons]

But he. They're watching, right? He says, I have. I predict she's going to get well and then Rocky's going to beat the hell out of Apollo Creed. That was a mid movie Ali prediction. He said, there's no way Apollo could hang. Rocky can hang with Apollo. He was jealous of Master and disaster. And then he had this quote. For the black man to come out superior would be against all America's teachings. I have been so great at boxing. They had to create an image like Rocky. A white image on the screen to counteract my image in the ring. America has to have its white images no matter where it gets them. Jesus. Wonder Woman, Tarzan and Rocky.

[Van Lathan]

Wonder Woman. How she get thrown into it, I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

That was Ali's take. That was Ali's.

[Van Lathan]

Out of nowhere they decided not to.

[Bill Simmons]

Put that blurb on the poster.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

For mile eight. But those were his takes.

[Van Lathan]

So when you watch the movie, it is. You're just blown away at how good of an athlete Carl Weathers is. It's ridiculous, right? Carl Weathers moves like a fighter, throws punches like a fighter. He is.

[Sierra]

He also looks like a fighter when he's just wearing a suit, moving around his house and moving through life.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, obviously Rocky was going to win. The spirit and then the non. I'm not giving up all of that stuff. That's what the movie is about. Like when you go back, that's kind of the deal you're making with the film is to like suspend the disbelief that Rocky could beat any of the opponents that he's ever fought. I will say I find Apollo Creed in this movie to be fascinating.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he doesn't smile, I don't think once in the movie. He's so angry.

[Sierra]

He.

[Van Lathan]

The scene, and we'll talk about it later, but the scene where they're trying to convince him not to do this, where everyone is completely afraid and he is so resolute. He's not angry at all. He's fixated on what he has to do. And him overcoming this and then falling short and not being able to do it. When Apollo slumps down and can't get up, Gutting just didn't have.

[Bill Simmons]

Then raises the arm at the end.

[Van Lathan]

And then raises the arm at the end. Like, just his entire perspective in the movie, the reading of the hate mail, all of that. Kind of an interesting look at the modern athlete and the kind of chances they take to protect their legacy. Like one of the first times a movie really did it that I could connect to.

[Bill Simmons]

He's all wrong for us, baby.

[Van Lathan]

Beat that, man. And he just kept coming.

[Bill Simmons]

He kept coming.

[Sierra]

I have more two later. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's funny watching, knowing how the rest of the Rocky series goes. And he's so much fun in Rocky 3. Apollo Creed, there's no sign of that in Rocky II. He just is, like, so fucking mad that Rocky almost beat him. The hate mail makes him so mad, all he wants to do is destroy the guy. And he's just like this really angry, vindictive character. And then Rocky III just.

[Sierra]

Well, he also has a great. It's also like, right at that moment where I feel like these guys are on camera not just when they're competing, but when they're building up to fights or building up to any events. And so he's also, like, playing three different characters. There's the character in the ring, the character at home, and the character who is just being filmed at press conferences, in any kind of public appearances. And so he always has, like, these little shades to the way he's performing Weathers. I mean, that's just incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

It's funny. As a kid in the 70s, it never occurred to me what a. What an Ali impersonation it was, because the only champ I really knew was Ali. So I just thought all champs acted like this.

[Sierra]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

But now, as the years pass and you watch it, it's a very, like, interesting Ali Hollywood hybrid character. There's a lot of Ali in it, especially the way he carries him, the way he talks, like how powers he is.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like a businessman. He's charismatic.

[Van Lathan]

He's like, it's. We talked about this with the first movie, too. It's an interesting juxtaposition because, you know, rock is really in the hood with criminals, with his homeboy's sister. Like in Philly, where when you look.

[Bill Simmons]

At Creed, the singers around the garbage can.

[Van Lathan]

The singers, what happened today?

[Sierra]

The doo wop guy.

[Van Lathan]

The doo wop guys, you know, warming.

[Bill Simmons]

Just like to hang out on a nice cold Thursday night singing some doo wop songs.

[Van Lathan]

Whatever you say to them, they go. But then, like, you can walk by and tell them, think about how dehumanizing. Walk by. Hey, give me a little Frankie Lyman. Okay, fellas? Yeah, that's a jukebox in the neighborhood. Show some respect. But then when you see Apollo, a group of guys in suits, a dedicated PR guy that's giving him advice on how he's going to look like the villain, so polished, like, so methodical, that he is literally conning Rocky into taking this fight. Our entire narrative in the story, which is this second fight, is based upon Apollo's ego. Fascinating character.

[Bill Simmons]

Also, it's possible it created the whole how to bully somebody into fighting you. And then the wrestling version of this that they just borrowed for the 80s 90s.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So on where.

[Sierra]

Which is cool because it was movies. It was in three, I guess.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's a very professional wrestling type of. You've got to fight me. What do you. Come on, let's go. All right, we're gonna take a break. We have a lot going here with the category, so we're gonna take a break. Come back with mostly watchable scene. This podcast is sponsored by PayPal. Let's talk holiday shopping. Make the most of your money with PayPal. They give you the flexibility to pay in four. No fees, no interest. So whether it's the must have toy or a tiered cheese board, PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday. Subject to approval. Learn [e-mail] payin for paypal inc. Nmls910457 all right. Most rewatchable scene. You know, I get why they reran the last six minutes of Rocky 1 as a remaster, but for the marathons, I always, really, always bothered me. I used to write about this a lot.

[Sierra]

If they're doing a Rocky marathon, you don't think.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it should just go right to them in the ambulance.

[Sierra]

So here's the thing. As a, as a discreet experience, though, if this movie doesn't have a fight in the Beginning. There's no fighting for an hour and a half, then.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, true.

[Sierra]

And you would be. It's a tough watch if there's no action.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

For an hour and a half, Rocky and Paul go to the hospital. The opening credits are the first rewatchable scene because they have the remastered Rocky theme song. Yeah. You guys aren't with me.

[Sierra]

Great title.

[Van Lathan]

I'm with you. I just think you should be around the war. Maybe you could be one of the guys. That's what you. Audition.

[Bill Simmons]

One man.

[Sierra]

Doo hop version.

[Van Lathan]

House.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. House kid. Next.

[Van Lathan]

Frank Reese back.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought that song was really good. Could have gone badly. I like that you have brain damage. I don't see any. And then Creed in the wheelchair talking.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What are the ads? They end up at the same hospital in the same waiting room.

[Sierra]

Well, there's only, like, a couple hospitals in Philly that you would really go to.

[Bill Simmons]

And we have that very small scene, Rocky taking the wheelchair over to Apollo, asking him if he gave him his best. It's a short one, but I like it. Rocky's marriage proposal. How's the Philadelphia zoo for you, C.R. well, a lot of good times.

[Sierra]

That's an interesting callback to the first movie. I don't know if you remember that.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, the gossip driver.

[Sierra]

Driver says retards like the zoo.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Sierra]

And then they get. They get engaged. I'm not saying I endorse the language, but I noted that they brought it. It was Chekhov Zoo.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, this was a running joke with my buddy Gus and I all through the 80s. If. That. If one of us was going to propose, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind marrying me too much.

[Sierra]

Classic line.

[Bill Simmons]

I like when he invites the tiger. Rock is just full brain. Brain damage for the first hour of this movie. She's doing that Rocky film in a commercial.

[Sierra]

Brutal.

[Bill Simmons]

This hurts. I think CR could have played the director.

[Sierra]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

It would have been a good.

[Van Lathan]

True auteur that can't deal with the incompetent talent.

[Sierra]

Yeah, it's like Fincher making him do 60.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't read.

[Van Lathan]

I can't read. You feel so bad for Rocky.

[Sierra]

Get out of here, Sir.

[Bill Simmons]

CR Would you have bought Beast Aftershave?

[Sierra]

Yeah, for sure. If. If I was a young Philadelphia kid just getting into puberty.

[Van Lathan]

What was the aftershave and Aqua Velva? Nah, not that one. The one where they had different athletes to. And you were supposed to act. The audience is going crazy. They don't know what I'm talking about. But they would. You were Supposed to be upstanding, where you wore it. And the guys would come out.

[Sierra]

Not Old Spice.

[Van Lathan]

Was it Old Spice? Yeah, yeah, Old Spice. And they would have guys in the Old Spice commercials and all that stuff. That's basically what he was doing. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Aqua Velva had the athletes with really, really attractive women. That was a campaign in the 80s that was very effective. That's when Joe Montana met his wife. Oh, he married the Akavalva lady.

[Van Lathan]

Oh. So he was like, I'm taking her home.

[Sierra]

Did he say. I was like, want to get married to me?

[Bill Simmons]

He took her to the Philadelphia Zoo. Mickey doing the finger test with Rock is a great scene on the stairwell.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. That's what.

[Bill Simmons]

He'd hurt you. Permanent hurts.

[Van Lathan]

You're permanent. Mick is the angriest goddess. Poiming it, poiming it, poiming it, poiming it.

[Bill Simmons]

And then when he wants to work back in the gym, he's like, where's your dignity? It's just. It's. It's really good and rocks. I think Stallone does. I think he has a really. Couple really, really good acting scenes in this. I think that's one of them where you just feel like the guy's fucking lost his way and it's not happening.

[Sierra]

Yeah. I mean, it's got a car lease trapped in a movie with someone.

[Bill Simmons]

Making.

[Sierra]

Bad mistakes because of, like, brain damage, essentially. And also just, like, a lack of kind of imagination about what they could do with their life. And it's a kind of uncomfortable movie because for the second that they're like, you should invest in condominiums or you should sign with this talent agency, or you should do this or you should do that. And watching him, you know, blow through his money and buy a house without going upstairs and all that stuff, it's just kind of like this is. This is like a pretty brave character to play because you don't get a lot of the hero moments until the last few minutes.

[Van Lathan]

And they must have really believed in the climax of the movie because everything is played. It's so understated.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like, there's never any. There's hardly any, should I say, huge dramatic failures from Rocky. Rocky gets fired. Hey, we gotta let you go. Yeah. Rocky takes you. Hey, I gotta.

[Sierra]

Hey, can I work the rest of the day?

[Van Lathan]

Can I work the rest of the day? Like, all of that stuff is just. They're almost edging you to the big climax at the end and. Sorry for that. But they almost. To get you.

[Bill Simmons]

Jesus.

[Van Lathan]

To get you to the big climax.

[Sierra]

Dan likes Going to the zoo too.

[Van Lathan]

I like it. Yeah, it's great.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the guy who fires him at the meatpacking.

[Sierra]

Frank McCray.

[Van Lathan]

Frank McCray. That guy?

[Bill Simmons]

48 hours.

[Sierra]

Yeah, of course. Is it a bunch?

[Van Lathan]

That's right.

[Sierra]

I called him that.

[Bill Simmons]

He's so good. That's my favorite angry sergeant performance in a 70s or 80s police movie.

[Sierra]

More than Inspector Todd?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Yeah. I like him more than Inspector Todd. I like how furious he is at Jack Cates. Yeah, he's really. Just had it. Jack Cates really screwed up. Apollo pushes Duke for a rematch. And then Duke does the. He's all wrong for us, baby. I saw you beat that man. Like I've never seen you beat anyone. The man kept coming.

[Van Lathan]

One of the greatest monologues in any sports movie.

[Bill Simmons]

We don't need this kind of man in our life.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

This is what they'll be saying about Drake. May in January to Mahomes and Josh Allen. We don't need this kind of man in our life. The man kept coming. Let it go. This is when he's so good in this scene that Stallone must have filed.

[Van Lathan]

It away as like, bring this guy back.

[Bill Simmons]

When I kill Apollo and Rocky iv, there's going to be a really important log cabin scene with this guy because I know he can do it. Apollo calls out Rocky on tv all the way to Mickey coming over for the.

[Sierra]

You mean the Musburger interview?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the Musburger.

[Sierra]

Astonishing.

[Bill Simmons]

I never asked you to stop being a woman.

[Van Lathan]

Don't ask me to stop.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't ask me to stop being a man. And then Mickey shows up. I think we ought to knock his block off. Paulie Van's least favorite character in movie history. Really funny. In the press conference.

[Sierra]

This really. I came around to your way of thinking this viewing what was absolute big. The most big time fucking scumbag character I've ever seen. I wish he went out like.

[Bill Simmons]

Or most realistic guy to have in a movie like this. I don't. I don't.

[Van Lathan]

I just mean he's not. I guess he causes. He is a plague on these people's lives.

[Sierra]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like causes his sister stresses her out into having huge premature labor complications.

[Bill Simmons]

Where do you have him? Versus Rod Tidwell's brother? Roxy.

[Sierra]

Will's brother was basically fine.

[Van Lathan]

He wasn't really doing anything. He said a couple of things that were off color. But Paulie, I told you he doesn't.

[Bill Simmons]

Like going over the middle.

[Van Lathan]

Shut up. And then she attacks. Pauly legitimately caused a premature baby. And then.

[Sierra]

And he's always like, you should knock her teeth out.

[Van Lathan]

And then advocates for domestic violence time after time.

[Bill Simmons]

And he breaks the pinball machine beginning right.

[Sierra]

Which one does he get the robot in?

[Van Lathan]

That's four.

[Bill Simmons]

That's four.

[Sierra]

Yeah. Servo.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they did Stallone. I refused to watch it, but he recut Rocky 4 and apparently the robot's out.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, I love the.

[Sierra]

When did he recut Rocky 4?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, it's on Amazon.

[Sierra]

Who asked for that?

[Bill Simmons]

It's Stallone. He's got nothing to do all day.

[Van Lathan]

Why take the robot out? The robot's cool.

[Bill Simmons]

The robot's always bothered him. He. He took all the footage he shot and recut a different movie. It's on Amazon.

[Craig]

He's got nothing to do.

[Bill Simmons]

All the king. Oh, yeah. I guess he is Tulsa king. All right, so we go through. Do you want to talk about the coma now?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, go for it.

[Sierra]

Yeah, I mean, it's. Isn't this what you. Go ahead, go ahead.

[Bill Simmons]

It's 11 minutes of real time. Like, think how long 11 minutes is.

[Sierra]

I know how long 11 minutes is. It's the same length as Ali Larder's dinner speech in the first episode of landman season two.

[Bill Simmons]

I was gonna say that's like a fourth quarter. Like 17 play drive. Yes. Where they're like, they've had the ball. 11 minutes. That's how long. She's in the coma. Rocky's in church. Rocky's reading to her. Rocky's in the hospital. Paul is there. It just goes on and on and on and on and on. But it does lead to. She finally wakes up and say, yeah, about that fight. I just want. Why don't you do one thing for me? Win.

[Sierra]

Win.

[Bill Simmons]

And he, like, lights up and then.

[Van Lathan]

Mick.

[Bill Simmons]

It's one of my favorite sports movie moments of all time.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what are we waiting for? And then the music comes in.

[Sierra]

One arm push up against the sunset.

[Bill Simmons]

We're just like. We are back.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Training montage. We catching the chickens. We doing the whole. Now we know.

[Sierra]

It's one arm sit up. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Is he the best jump? Angrily doing the jump rope, finishing and then whipping the jump rope down.

[Sierra]

He is.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he put that goat of.

[Sierra]

Beating up scrap metal.

[Van Lathan]

He is right. He's the training montage. Go.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, this was this. I mean, there's a training montage in one. This is like takes it up nine levels.

[Van Lathan]

Then there's a training montage in four, two. Again, that's just breath.

[Bill Simmons]

Four is 15 minutes of training montages in a row with, like, no dialogue. This this sets the template for what happens.

[Sierra]

So do you guys. You. Let me ask you, fight expert, do you think.

[Van Lathan]

How.

[Sierra]

How close to the fight is he engaging in this training montage? And how long is he training for?

[Bill Simmons]

Because I'm say this is like six weeks.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, Six weeks out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

Six weeks out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Because they. They started he had probably two or three weeks of uninspired training.

[Sierra]

Well, he's sitting around with Adrian for a long time too.

[Van Lathan]

Right. So he's probably six weeks out.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a question for the group, including Craig. So we have the okay, Motherfucker award for the exact moment when the movie goes up a notch.

[Sierra]

I had that. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which is named after Al Pacino and Heat.

[Sierra]

Okay, Motherfucker.

[Bill Simmons]

When they're in the. That we're not watching them, they're watching us.

[Sierra]

LAPD Police department.

[Bill Simmons]

So we named that. That was a category somebody suggested we just got made.

[Sierra]

I was watching it again the other day.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Do we change this award to the. Well, what are we waiting for? Because technically, Heat's already up nine notches. It's not like Heat needed the bump. So it's kind of a misnamed award. Even though it was a great moment.

[Sierra]

By okay, Motherfucker, Al Pacino has already done the actual ok, Motherfucker moment of Heat, which is. By the time I get to Phoenix, he'll be rising. He'll probably leave a note right on the door. Like, that's really. When it jumps up, you get killed.

[Bill Simmons]

Buggy doggy. Yeah. I feel like we're already.

[Van Lathan]

Gimme what you got.

[Sierra]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Poor guy. So I think. I actually think we should change the award to the. Well, what are we waiting for?

[Van Lathan]

Because anyway, this movie actually. This is a steroids.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. It's coma.

[Sierra]

And then she says when you run through that.

[Bill Simmons]

Correct.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. The movie is literally and figuratively in a coma.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And then it gets out is 11 minutes. The fight in the movie is only eight.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Coma's longer than the fight.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That would have been one of my notes if he did a screening for us.

[Sierra]

Permanent Ghost in Philadelphia. Like, he's just wandering around South Philly ghost town at night, going to church and shit. It's so like, oh, my God.

[Van Lathan]

But from this point on, the movie makes use of all your emotions, all of them. Like, the movie gives you this emotional euphoria of the run.

[Sierra]

Well, to be fair, it actually puts you in the. In the headspace of Rocky.

[Bill Simmons]

Absolutely.

[Sierra]

Which is like you're basically sitting around for 90 minutes and then for 30 minutes, your heart explodes.

[Bill Simmons]

Couple things I love in the montage. I love when he's carrying the log and he kind of loses. It's like too heavy for him. And he drops it and it seems like he's going to stop. And then he's like, no, I got to keep going. And he picks it back up and it's just like a good perseverance part.

[Sierra]

I personally just want a spin off movie of the guy who runs the scrapyard. And Mick and Rock are like, can we come and hit this with hammers? And it's just like, yeah, man, knock yourself out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, go ahead, guys.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, dude, fucking Rocky Balboa is here.

[Sierra]

Rocky Balboa beating the shit out of a Pontiac.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we give a shout out to Mickey's assistant, the black guy with like the. Yeah, I don't know. He's got. He's got ball, but he's got the hair on the sides. George Jefferson, he has no lines at all, but he's fucking awesome for like two minutes. He's doing the medicine ball thing. He's punching him in the stomach.

[Sierra]

Is that guy's name Johnny? Is it because he's in the gym earlier, Right?

[Bill Simmons]

We never get any scenes with him.

[Van Lathan]

There's another guy that I'm going to point out as some of the worst on screen boxing I've ever seen before in my life. I don't think it's the same guy, but there's another. There's an extra in the background. I'll say this about the training montage.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, there's two training montage. So we have that first one that ends with the chickens and I got speed. And then we have the running scene.

[Van Lathan]

The running scene.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to separate them because that's the next one I have.

[Van Lathan]

But like there's Rocky's training, but then there's Apollo's training. And it's interesting kind of to go back and forth because what the montage really does is underscore that Rocky is training in his neighborhood. He's training with his people. He's getting back to himself. Whereas Apollo's training is ego driven and focused on himself. It's dangerous for people. He's knocking people out without any concern for who they are. Bring me another one. Meanwhile, Rocky has all of these people helping him who love him and all of this stuff. It's clear they're fighting for different things.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky runs through Philly, red jacket kid. It's incredible job by him trying to keep up. There's some stuff, I guess we can do it now, about how long he ran. Somebody tried to figure this out.

[Sierra]

It was 30 miles, right?

[Bill Simmons]

It was 30.2 miles. Yes. If it went from where his South Philly house was all the way to the top of the art museum steps in the same day. 30.2 miles.

[Van Lathan]

Too much road work.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

Finishes with a dead sprint. That is not a short sprint from where he starts at like the Rodan statue or the Rodan statue going up the art museum steps. It's got to be like 600 yards. I don't know, I'm not, I'm not positive. But like he's running full out and then hits the steps and takes the steps with all the kids. Kids would be like falling down on the steps like, like passed out.

[Van Lathan]

12 dead.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that would have been. That would have been the, the dark version of this movie. Kids die on the run. One kid gets hit by a car. The big fight, the second round. Don't let up on this man. This man's dangerous. I'm dangerous. I love that. Everyone in the audience is getting ready for World War Three and Rocky going ain't going down anymore. And then they play the. And you're like, okay, here we go. We're running the old movie back. So this was in the research. I don't know if this is true, but I watched it and it might be true. When they get ready for World War 3 and they're like pushing each other and have to be held back by the cornermen. Apparently Stallone and Weathers were actually mad at each other because some punches landed. And that was actual footage of them yelling at each other and having to be separated. And Stallone liked it, so he kept it in the movie. Smart. I don't know if that's true because this movie's been out for 47 years. And as you know, I feel like some of the half ass gets made up as the years pass.

[Sierra]

Yeah. There's not a lot of lore about this movie, so that's really interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Rounds three through 14 would be another rewatch one. Then the 15th round, the double KO.

[Sierra]

When did you switch?

[Bill Simmons]

He switches in the 15th, but if you watch the movie, I feel like he's fighting southpaw half the time in the movie, so who knows?

[Sierra]

He also gets punched in his right eye like 400 times.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, what are your thoughts on the double ko? Just as a, as a gimmick in a boxing movie.

[Craig]

The only thing that bothered me was, was Rocky doesn't get hit. I mean, he trips.

[Van Lathan]

That's A trip. That's the thing that. That's the technical.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a pick. And Nick. And it's like, it would be ruled a slip.

[Van Lathan]

He would be. Yeah. Only Apollo actually had to get up also. Yeah.

[Craig]

And it wouldn't be that hard for Rocky to get up after a trip compared to Apollo, who was hit.

[Van Lathan]

Well, it depends on how exhausted he.

[Craig]

Is, I. I guess. But it's not the same, right?

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, he did get punched over 2,500 times, flush in the face. Couldn't see out of either eye. So.

[Sierra]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he couldn't figure out how to stand up. Rocky's speech at the end, too.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, man.

[Bill Simmons]

My kid being bored. This is the greatest day of my life.

[Van Lathan]

Notice the waiting wasn't in there, so.

[Bill Simmons]

Fuck that, right? Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I'm asking you. You guys are married, so, like, if you were to have, like, this. This, like, tremendous professional. I know. The kids have to go in there, right? The kids have to go in there. But, like, do you put, like, a sports enemy or something like that, like, ahead of the marriage? Where does the marriage fit in?

[Sierra]

As greatest day of my life.

[Van Lathan]

As greatest day of your life. Would it be if Rocky's talking number one, Right, guys?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, number one. Van.

[Van Lathan]

Keep it real, man.

[Sierra]

It's like top three with birds beating the Patriots in the Super Bowl. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Gotcha. But you're not gonna say. Cause he goes. He says very clearly, oh, this is. Besides my kids being born, this is the greatest.

[Bill Simmons]

But was this kid being born one of the greatest days? Cause his wife was gonna die, miscarried, and almost bled to death.

[Sierra]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

So no way. That was insulted to her. But he gets.

[Sierra]

He gets an heir, he gets a sign.

[Craig]

He also was. He didn't even see his son. The day his son was born, he refused to even see his son. And so she woke up.

[Sierra]

Yeah. I'm sure the doctors at Penn Hospital are just like, this fucking kid.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, an actual monkey. That kid had the most hair I've ever seen on a baby.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, Jesus.

[Bill Simmons]

That was an Italian.

[Van Lathan]

What the fuck?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just keeping it real. That kid had a lot of hair.

[Van Lathan]

Whoa, be careful there.

[Sierra]

That's his kid. Stallone's kid.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, Stallone's kid. Actually, Stallone's kid's kid.

[Craig]

Oh, wow.

[Van Lathan]

Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. That was his first son. That kid had the most hair I've ever seen on a baby. I've never seen a baby with more hair than that ever.

[Sierra]

It's not a newborn baby, probably, like.

[Van Lathan]

In the Movie probably like a baby.

[Bill Simmons]

The baby was pretty young though.

[Van Lathan]

But it's not a newborn baby.

[Bill Simmons]

Baby had a lot of hair. What's your most rewatchable scene, Van?

[Van Lathan]

It's so you can't beat the fact that the 15th round, the 15th round of the fight's the most rewatchable scene. But if I was gonna give a 1B, it's the conversation between Rocky and Duke. Not Rocky and Duke, between Apollo and Duke. Like that scene is the scene that I wait for whenever I watch this move me.

[Bill Simmons]

It's coming out of the coma. Well, what are we waiting for in the. The training scene? Training from that? Yeah, that's it. What's the most 1979 thing about this movie?

[Sierra]

I got one for this.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's go.

[Sierra]

Nine and a half percent mortgage rate.

[Bill Simmons]

I had that too. Buying a house in Philly for 16k with apparently the.

[Sierra]

The national like average was 11. So I wonder if the bank was giving him a break.

[Bill Simmons]

But this is nine and a half. It's fucking high.

[Van Lathan]

I have this as what's actually aged the worst. It's like a young being able to afford a house. Yeah, that's what's pre. Something to pre age the worst I.

[Bill Simmons]

Have my candidate for this is when Rocky is training for the fight. He's sparring with a smaller, quicker fighter. And that fighter is Roberto Duran.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

A young Roberto Duran. A year before he beat Sugar Ray Leonard in Montreal and two years before Sugar Ray Leonard fucking disgraced him in New Orleans, made him quit. Made him quit like a fucking loser.

[Van Lathan]

Oh my goodness.

[Sierra]

So you're not into him? You're not into Duran?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Sugar Ray is my guy. He didn't shake Sugar Ray's hand after Montreal fight they hated. He's a fucking asshole.

[Van Lathan]

But I will say that this is.

[Sierra]

Durant has that no mask.

[Bill Simmons]

He no masked him.

[Van Lathan]

Durant has spent the entire 70s dominating at 135 one of the best fighters at lightweight ever. So he, by that time he was already a legend.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Ray did him fucking quit. And then Hearn snapped.

[Sierra]

You keep pointing at me like you're going to make me quit one day.

[Bill Simmons]

Duran, I just don't like him. I didn't like. I thought it was a bad sport.

[Van Lathan]

I thought he was one of the most colorful, interesting boxers that's ever lived. But yeah, in the 80s it was the golden boy Sugar Ray Leonard against the hated Roberto Duran.

[Bill Simmons]

I was so mad when he lost the Duran fight. I saw that in a closed circuit, just furious.

[Van Lathan]

Boy, if you guys want to Be entertained, furious. Watch the. The end of that fight after Duran gets the decision over Leonard. Look how crazy Duran is going. He hated him. He's looking in now. He's. He's going nuts.

[Bill Simmons]

Leonard goes to touch gloves after the fight and Duran like does that.

[Van Lathan]

Get the hell out of here. Yeah, he's going crazy in the ring.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. He's. Cause Sugar Ray was like the American popular guy who, whatever.

[Van Lathan]

Duran was like, you know, the hardscrabble. Get it out the mud. And he felt like Sugar Ray was actually not a tough fighter, but he was a creation of the boxing press and all of that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he bullied him into actually fighting him versus boxing him in the first fight because he called him a pussy, basically for six straight months.

[Van Lathan]

Talked about his wife, talked bad to his wife.

[Bill Simmons]

He was so mad, he comes out and he tries to actually fight him for 15 round versus like boxing.

[Van Lathan]

And then the second one, he was just. He was too quick for him. Duran said he ate like a steak and that's why he quit.

[Bill Simmons]

And he fucking quick. Cause Brave kicked his ass.

[Van Lathan]

1979. Jesus. 1979 stuff. 15 round boxing fights, obviously.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Van Lathan]

15 round box.

[Bill Simmons]

When did that end? Like 80. Something like 87 range.

[Van Lathan]

Early to mid-80s. They went to 12 rounds. And then actual hate mail. Yeah, like getting hate mail.

[Sierra]

I had this. In what stage?

[Van Lathan]

The best that like actual hate mail and reading hate mail rather than responding the tweets.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a lot of energy to write out a letter.

[Sierra]

Dear Apollo.

[Bill Simmons]

Dear Apollo, kill yourself. Fuck you.

[Sierra]

Sincerely. Oh, sincerely, Chris Ryan.

[Bill Simmons]

Dear Roberto, go fuck yourself.

[Van Lathan]

One more 1979 thing. Fights both on regular TV and in Philly. Nowadays we only have fights in places where people don't have human rights, like Riyadh and Vegas. Vegas.

[Craig]

This is.

[Bill Simmons]

Riyadh. Vegas. Okay, we don't get to get this out all the time, but the Steven Seagal shitting on himself award for most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot. This didn't come out till years later, and I'm not positive I believe it. But Rocky said the switch to fighting right handed was not in the script. It came about because of an accident on the set when he was weightlifting with bodybuilder Franco Colombo. Remember him? The short guy from Pumping Iron. And he had a complete, almost complete tear of his left pectoral muscle and they had to reattach it and he couldn't fight with his left hand, so they had to do the switch thing. I'm not positive I believe this. I watched the movie carefully to see if there was like scenes that he couldn't do it.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He uses his left arm the entire movie. And so Stallone claims this is true, but I'm not positive I believe it.

[Sierra]

If it is true and assuming it is true just for the sake of the argument. It's two major plot points that were basically like cover ups for an injury in Stallone's case and Talia Shire making a different movie. She had like a scheduling conflict. So that's why they did the coma.

[Craig]

I think the pectoral. I think it is true because the entire training montage, he's only doing one handed workouts. He's doing the one handed.

[Sierra]

Right.

[Craig]

Craig, he's doing the one handed pull up also.

[Van Lathan]

He's not using that hand.

[Sierra]

That's a good point.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So who knows? Yeah. And what C.R. said about Adrian was Talia Shire was filming old boyfriends, which was John Belushi's in that movie and could only film near the end. So that's why she didn't go to the fight. They had to film her scenes later, like months later.

[Sierra]

They shot her stuff.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What's age? The best. You mentioned the zoo thing. The zoo callback from Kazo's driver, Gazo. Rocky not wanting to invest in condominiums because he never used them. Characters going on spending sprees. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Movie's always good.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

70S 80s thing when you know they're fucking up.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So yeah, I'm about get the new trans 37k.

[Sierra]

Took you a long way though back then, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

Get a car.

[Van Lathan]

Car house, bunch of Rolexes.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The spectrum being filled with actual extras. Unlike the first fight.

[Sierra]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Because the first fight they, we talked about that. They had to cut all these corners and it's just dark. What else do you have for what stage the best.

[Sierra]

I just love Tony's monotone hype up speech to Apollo in the locker room. You're the man. You're number one, the champ. The best of all time. Girls love you, man. Old people love you. And I just imagine like this is how Ben Johnson talks to Caleb Williams. Like you wear nail polish. You make plays off, off structure, off platform.

[Bill Simmons]

You got a 51% completion rate.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, damn.

[Sierra]

And also at one point Rocky is told that he's just going to be pumping gas in Jersey. You know you can't pump your own gas in Jersey.

[Van Lathan]

I used to make fun of Charlamagne because I would be on the phone with him and then he would stop.

[Sierra]

He Would be like, fill him up.

[Van Lathan]

Fill it up. And he would be like, fill it up. Like, I did this for a long time. He'd be like, fill it up. Like, fill it up, whatever. And I'd be like, bruh, I've been pumping on gas. And then he goes, you can't do that in Jersey.

[Sierra]

You can't.

[Van Lathan]

I was like, what? He was like, in Jersey, you can't pump your own gas. They gotta pump it for you. The whole time I was getting my little jokes off, it was like an actual.

[Sierra]

It's true.

[Bill Simmons]

Connecticut has parts in that too, where it's mostly somebody's pumping your gas. And when my mom moved here to la, she couldn't believe that there weren't gas stations where they had the gas station attendance. It's definitely more of an east coast thing.

[Van Lathan]

I've never been to a full service gas station and had somebody pump my gas ever in life.

[Bill Simmons]

If you and Charlamagne did a rewatchables together, would we ever get through the categories?

[Van Lathan]

Probably not. There would be several arguments.

[Bill Simmons]

I think one of you would leave halfway through.

[Van Lathan]

It would be. We go back and forth a lot. That's the nature of our friendship, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Is like, you know, it'd be an interesting experiment. Any other what stage the best before we move on.

[Van Lathan]

Just the Rocky lore and universe. Like when you watch this movie, you see all the ways that Creed. This was the movie that Creed really took more from. Like the running montage with the kids, the training montages. You literally see the bones of Creed and Rocky ii. Maybe more than you see in any other movie.

[Bill Simmons]

That's good point.

[Van Lathan]

So that's really aged the best. And once again, I'll say it, man. Carl Weathers is a phenomenal athlete. He's a phenomenal. He has fast hands, he moves well. He's got great feet.

[Sierra]

Great actor too.

[Van Lathan]

He's just like a great actor. Like him in this movie, I could have done with. I could have been up for a lot more. Carl Weathers in this movie.

[Craig]

That's my flex. It's the Sasha Jenkins Award for the guy I can't believe is not a bigger star. Carl Weathers is so good. He's so funny. I mean, him going through Happy Gilmore, great comedic timing. He can just do so many things. Why did he.

[Sierra]

Mandalorian. Yeah, Mandalorian Predator. Are you an Action Jackson guy?

[Bill Simmons]

Fuck yeah.

[Van Lathan]

It's on the list.

[Craig]

No, I've never seen Action Jackson.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, bro. You gonna watch?

[Bill Simmons]

It's on the list for the next year.

[Van Lathan]

Can I interest you in peak. Peak, Woman. Peak. I can't tell you.

[Bill Simmons]

The great thing about this movie is you can list two people here. I would back both choices.

[Van Lathan]

I'm going Vanity though.

[Bill Simmons]

But Sharon Stone is Sharon Stone as well.

[Craig]

Sharon Stone.

[Van Lathan]

Vanity and Sharon Stone at the peak. There is nothing more beautiful than.

[Bill Simmons]

We've discussed this before in Rewatchables. I can't remember what movie, but I.

[Sierra]

Think it was Kyle probably.

[Bill Simmons]

But the fact that they didn't make five Action Jacksons is unbelievable. Everybody loved that movie and then it would. But in general, Craig, your point is correct.

[Craig]

Like why isn't he in a Tarantino movie or something?

[Van Lathan]

I'm telling you, there's one thing. It's a really, really crowded space in the 80s in terms of action stars. It's the heyday of that Action Jackson has all of the stuff. It has him jumping full over cars. Him. It has bad Craig T. Nelson.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he got a little pigeonholed by the Apollo character because the Rocky series was so famous. It was hard not to see him as Apollo. I think Danny Glover market corrected him a little bit because Carl Weathers easily could have been a lethal weapon.

[Craig]

Isn't Carl weather's in Predator 1? Danny Glover, Predator 2.

[Van Lathan]

But can I tell you why, though? I don't think that Carl Weathers would have been a good choice for Lethal Weapon. He's too physically intimidating.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like in Lethal Weapon. You have to believe. And this is something else that probably held him back. He's with a lot.

[Sierra]

He's supposed to be too old for this shit the entire time.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And he looks physically for that. You needed every man that looked like Riz could kick his ass and that just. Yeah. It wouldn't have looked like he almost.

[Craig]

Got pigeonholed because of his physique and athleticism.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you know he was like an NFL player for like six, seven years?

[Sierra]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

San Diego State, baby.

[Sierra]

Rip.

[Van Lathan]

Rest in peace, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Very sad.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Carl Weather's almost a unanimous approval rating, I think from the general public.

[Sierra]

All time underrated actors.

[Van Lathan]

Just made every movie better that he was in in the scenes that he was in. Made every movie better. Had to die a lot for these other guys to get their shit off, though. Pissed me off.

[Sierra]

Yeah. Like Predator is pretty bad.

[Van Lathan]

Predator had to die. Apollo had to die. Happy Gilmore had to die.

[Sierra]

Stop killing him.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, boy, if I had my Kofi right now. Hey, man, stop killing these black men to exalt your heroes. Eyes open.

[Craig]

He's even funny in a restaurant.

[Sierra]

Their own gas.

[Bill Simmons]

It'S weird. He never had, like, a sitcom. Like a. You know, everybody had a sitcom.

[Craig]

He was in Arrested Development briefly.

[Sierra]

Oh, that's right.

[Bill Simmons]

But like, late 80s where he's just like. He does a career swerve. All of a sudden, he's got, like, a little family. He's, like, working in a law office or something.

[Van Lathan]

When Happy Gilmore came along, I was so excited to see him, and he was hysterical.

[Craig]

He is so good at it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Big Kahuna burger. Where best use of food and drink. The meat's back.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, Jesus.

[Sierra]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

What else would you have, Polly?

[Sierra]

Snow cone.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, okay.

[Sierra]

I got snow cone in the fall.

[Van Lathan]

The spit bucket.

[Craig]

Is that a food or a drink?

[Van Lathan]

A drink.

[Bill Simmons]

Great shot. Go toward most cinematic shot. The little kids with Rocky. Or would you go.

[Sierra]

I actually had the. The first fight footage being projected against Mickey as he's talking to him about how he's gonna. How they're gonna fight. And it's also Mickey, early ball knower, early tape head. You know, going through the footage, trying to find the. The margins.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that Gordlowski?

[Sierra]

He's like Shanahan. Yeah.

[Craig]

Why do you have to protect the eye if you already can't see out of it?

[Sierra]

Yeah, I think he can see. I think that if he gets hit again, he's gonna go blind.

[Van Lathan]

He detaches retina or something like that.

[Sierra]

But he gets hit in that eye, like 400 times in the fight. It's not even. They. They just dropped that entire.

[Van Lathan]

How throughout the whole movie, they're talking as if Rocky's a human being and he's not. You can't.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like Michael Myers can't do anything to kill him. Yeah. His eyesight gets better during the four Rockies. Yes. Once they keep cutting it. Kid Cudi. Pursuit of happiness to wear. Best needle drop. The opening credits. Ambulance ride.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, of course.

[Sierra]

Chess Rock Not Gonna Fly now over the training montage.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, that's good. Ah, that's probably.

[Sierra]

Yeah, you're probably right with Frank Stallone on Mox.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

That's probably it. Doo Wop band. Shout out to them real quick.

[Sierra]

Yeah. The Doo Wop guys.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Chess. Rockwell Brocklanders award. Best character name. Still Apollo Creed.

[Sierra]

I have Father Carmine, though, and it's pretty good. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then I got to throw this in today. The Nico Harrison Award for worst decision.

[Van Lathan]

Lakers third in the West.

[Bill Simmons]

Apollo demanding the Rocket rematch, but then fighting him in the Spectrum.

[Sierra]

Well, he was saying, anytime anywhere.

[Van Lathan]

He said, I'm a beat this man in front of his people in his town.

[Bill Simmons]

Eh, fight him in Vegas. You don't need the Philly crowd. Come on, Apollo, you're supposed to be smart. Go to Vegas or Riyadh. One of those things.

[Sierra]

I think that he's doing it also in Philly so that he can't be accused of there being any fixing throwing going on.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, we're take a break. Come back with Sierra's flex. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. J. Kelly, the new film from Academy Award nominee Noah Baumbach. My Guy. George Clooney stars as an actor confronting his past and present on a journey of self discovery alongside Adam Sandler, My Guy as his devoted manager. Critics are calling it a declaration of love to the chaotic art of filmmaking, with the Wall Street Journal praising it as, quote, a transcendent comedy drama. Watch. J. Kelly December 5th, only on Netflix. This episode is brought to you by the Home Depot. Black Friday savings are here at the Home Depot, which means it's time to stock up on new additions to your collection. And right now, when you buy a select battery kit from one of our top brands like Ryobi or Milwaukee, you'll get a select tool from that same brand for free. So check out the best deals of the season and get top brand tools you'll use for projects all year long. Black Friday savings happening now at the Home Depot. Limit 1 per transaction exclusions apply. Full eligible tool list in store and online. All right, cr, what do you got?

[Sierra]

Well, I did actually have the ok Motherfucker award for Adrian saying win, but I will, off the top of my head, do a reverse Mallory Rubin of did this movie need a better sex scene? It's more of a question. Do you think that's the one and only time Adrienne and Rock have sex is on their marriage night.

[Bill Simmons]

Now, remember, very chaste.

[Van Lathan]

No, we did this in the first movie, right?

[Sierra]

Oh, did we?

[Van Lathan]

Remember in the first movie she became a little muskrat.

[Sierra]

Oh, that's right.

[Van Lathan]

A little minx.

[Sierra]

That's right.

[Van Lathan]

She was trying to get to him. He brought her out of her shit shell.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought, she's a late bloomer. That was always my take.

[Sierra]

Oh, my God. It was too many trips to the zoo for her.

[Van Lathan]

Empty house, no furniture, every room christening it.

[Bill Simmons]

Remember?

[Van Lathan]

Cause she. Yeah, but.

[Bill Simmons]

So, yeah, you know who sniffed that out? Clubber Lang.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, that's right.

[Bill Simmons]

You can see that twinkle in her eye.

[Van Lathan]

Clubber Lane looked at it. I was like, she needs a little bit something more.

[Sierra]

Adrienne has like a personality transplant in three and four Right. She's like a different woman.

[Bill Simmons]

Three, she's that's her best performance in a movie.

[Van Lathan]

And then four, she still does the thing that she does where she shakes her head and talks and looks at the ground and says the line. And I'm like, why don't you just communicate so this guy doesn't go out and get killed?

[Sierra]

And then five, she's dead.

[Van Lathan]

No. Five, she's alive.

[Bill Simmons]

Five, she's alive.

[Sierra]

Rocky Balboa.

[Bill Simmons]

She's dead.

[Van Lathan]

Rocky Balboa, she's gone. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Van Zalen, who likes five the Butch's girlfriend.

[Van Lathan]

Rocky V is good, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Butch's girlfriend award for weak link of the film. I went with one eyed, slightly brain damaged Rocky. Beating a prepared, motivated, angry Creed in the rematch was my pick. If he can't see out of his right eye, which is the jab, you just Creed. He had to have been up by a hundred points heading into round two.

[Sierra]

He was. And, and Duke's like, you gotta. All you have to do is just not get.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's a weak link.

[Van Lathan]

Apollo did everything that you could do to win a fight to beat Michael Myers.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but what'd you have for the week, Link?

[Sierra]

Well, two things. One, coma. And two, obviously Gazo being in the movie and not having any impact on the plot. Shows up like three times, asks about the condos, comes to the gym. Never really. If he had not been in this film, it wouldn't have made a difference. And he's spinel so good. I just wish there had been some like mafia, like we're trying to get you to throw the fight or something going on.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that would have been better than the coma.

[Van Lathan]

But it is a cool ass line where he goes, hey, remember that guy?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And then he walks out. Yeah, but the movie needed.

[Sierra]

To your point, I feel like he's in the movie and they just either cut his plot or there was a poly plot that they didn't use. There's something where he's in the film, but there's no story with him.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, maybe one more dimension for the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what he gets though? A coveted spot in any big sports movie is the cutaway shot to the guy in the crowd. Go get him, Rock. Yeah, the hug shot. Vision quest was the best one for this because there's four different people in the audience that they're just cutting to throughout it. Did you have a weak link, Van?

[Van Lathan]

No, every. No, no, I mean, Adrian, that's it.

[Bill Simmons]

What's age the worst, Paulie? Just horrible as always. We already Talked about him. Ali said on Rocky's weightlifting, it's the worst thing a boxer can do. It tightens the muscles. A fighter never lifts weights, but it looks good in the movie.

[Sierra]

A fighter never lifts weights.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not. I don't. I'm not on that level. I mean, they lift weights, but I just go in there, hit the bags, and then get in the ring, get my head beat in.

[Bill Simmons]

Adrian not going to the fight. So they had the kid six weeks of training.

[Sierra]

Are you trying to say that Adrian.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, she should have gone to the fight? It's. It's. It's. It's a bad job by her. Go to the fight. Your guy's fighting, you might get killed in the ring. You're just gonna watch.

[Sierra]

Your ads about this are really funny.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on. You watch this on a black and white TV in 1979. Go to the fight. It's 50 minutes from your house. I have one really good wood stage. The worst. But what do you guys do? You guys have anything for a young.

[Van Lathan]

Couple buying a house that, like, age is pretty bad right now. Stickball. Kids don't go outside to do anything besides protest right now.

[Sierra]

It's true.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, like, the last time I saw a group of kids outside and there was no cost. It's been a while. The character of Paulie aged terribly. The scene where Rocky is hitting a heavy bag. And Rocky's hitting a heavy bag, right? And Adrian comes down and says that she's gonna go back to work. Yeah, basically, she has to go back.

[Sierra]

To work part time at a pet store.

[Van Lathan]

Part time at the pet store because Rocky's not making any money. Then Rocky says, hey, go get dinner started. So he has no 70s.

[Sierra]

Were different, man.

[Van Lathan]

Definitely, definitely. He has no income. She comes down, I gotta go back. Working part time at the pet store. He says, hey, doesn't he also say.

[Sierra]

But he's sort of like, I want to support you kind of.

[Van Lathan]

He doesn't want her to go back. But I just don't know of the modern woman where she decides, I have to go back into work to support the family. And then you can say, how much.

[Sierra]

Is she making at that pet store anyway? Can they make that mortgage 1500 for the property taxes?

[Bill Simmons]

Because that scene in 2025 would be different.

[Van Lathan]

Way different.

[Sierra]

Nine and a half percent.

[Van Lathan]

And the last one, I gotta say this, at 54, 26 in this movie, over Mickey's left shoulder. I don't know how you guys can put it. There is some terrible boxing by one of the extras. It was just. I mean, it looks crazy. And the only thing that's worse than the boxing by this extra is the hairline. And I have to show you this. This is one of the worst hairlines I've ever seen in anything that's ever. Look at this. Look at that guy. Look at his hairline. Look at that. Whoa.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like a peninsula.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's got an entire peninsula. But when you see it, when you look at the actual time code. What the fuck is he doing back there? And then I was completely distracted.

[Bill Simmons]

I have. By. What's age the worst? My biggest one is that I think Rocky. I think Stallone dials the brain damage up a little too high in this one. So I had my scale of brain damage for each.

[Sierra]

I actually have what age the worst? Too many in this. Too many characters in this movie on the Balboa side of things have little to no brain activity. It's just too many people just not being able to, like, communicate. So it's not exactly Michael Clayton.

[Bill Simmons]

Brain damage from one to ten. Rocky one, I think he's a four. Rocky two, he's like an eight and a half. Rocky three is back down to a two.

[Sierra]

Yeah, he's recovered.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky four is a one. I mean, he's like. He could be running a record company.

[Van Lathan]

I'm interested now.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky 5, he's a full 10.

[Van Lathan]

He's a 1000.

[Bill Simmons]

He's.

[Sierra]

What happens in Rocky 5?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't understand why he made Rocky 5.

[Van Lathan]

Drago scrambled his egg. It's post Drago. Drago is the. Now he's a 1000.

[Bill Simmons]

And you like this movie?

[Van Lathan]

Love it. Don't, like, love it.

[Bill Simmons]

Creed. I think he's about a five and a half, six.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, he's bad.

[Sierra]

No, he's fine in Creed. He's running a small business.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So you have him lower?

[Sierra]

Yeah, I have him at, like a 4 or 4 in Creed, but literally in Creed, he's running a restaurant. You know how hard that is? Watch the bear.

[Van Lathan]

His chips literally M5. Tommy will ask him a question about boxing. Like, rock, what should I do? Should I drop my left hand? Rock will go, oh, yogurt. And then the scene will end. Like, he's like.

[Bill Simmons]

He's.

[Van Lathan]

He's like, totally.

[Bill Simmons]

I like that.

[Van Lathan]

He's totally out of here.

[Bill Simmons]

Stallone has disowned Rocky 5.

[Sierra]

Has he?

[Bill Simmons]

Van's the only person that owns it.

[Sierra]

Who directed five?

[Van Lathan]

I can't remember. I think Stallone, but Tommy Gunn is in that.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, John Avildson.

[Sierra]

Oh, he Came back for five.

[Van Lathan]

Rocky losing his money. Just the whole thing with his son.

[Sierra]

Oh, five is when Paulie loses all his money.

[Van Lathan]

Paulie loses all his money. His son has to go back in Philly, but evil Kevin Connolly is in that. Turvy Kevin Connolly. And his son has to learn how to bow up in the whole thing. Don King character, I like it. It's crazy, but I like it.

[Bill Simmons]

The Don King character is probably the funniest part of that movie.

[Sierra]

George Washington Duke Ventimiglia is in Balboa.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

And then he's in Creed 2.

[Van Lathan]

He comes back in Creed II.

[Bill Simmons]

So John Avildson, just as a quick aside, does Rocky and then is doing Saturday Night Fever and gets pulled off it. He gets fired. And then by the time we get to. Then he does Karate Kid 2 as a comeback, but he does back to back Karate Kid 3. Rocky 5 back to back. What a run. What a run. Oh, Karate Kid 3, the funniest sports movie of all time for all the wrong reasons.

[Van Lathan]

The bad boy, Karate Mike Barnes.

[Sierra]

Yeah, that's right.

[Bill Simmons]

Really such an awful movie. Okay. The Ruffalo hand and Ruben and Partridge overacting. Word for the overacting. The commercial director, Burgess. Burgess, make the case. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Sierra]

What do you mean, make the case? Watch the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you mean?

[Sierra]

Every fucking scene, Mickey is going like, rock, rock. You know, like, it's just.

[Bill Simmons]

It's.

[Sierra]

He's completely over.

[Bill Simmons]

Do we need to add Mickey to your characters? Because we need to refresh to 26. We do.

[Sierra]

Mickey from Rocky would be good commenting on some of these movies.

[Van Lathan]

I agree. I think Mickey is killing me today. I think you're. But that's kind of. Isn't that Mickey's whole deal, though?

[Sierra]

Yeah, but like, he's really going for the supporting.

[Bill Simmons]

Commented on it. He said the trainer would never be that. That on it. Yelling at a boxer the whole time. What do you have for a flex category, Van?

[Van Lathan]

Top five. I made up my own top five unrealistic sports movie outcomes. Okay, so number five is Teen Wolf. If you guys haven't seen the end of the Teen Wolf, Scott as the wolf has gotten the team to the championship game. The team that features.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you really telling us the ending of Teen Wolf?

[Van Lathan]

Just making sure the audience knows.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

All right. Scott decides in the last scene not to wolf up.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And they go out there and they win. Never fucking happening. I don't know if you guys have seen their power forward, but if you BMI of like 45, they're just not going to go out there and get a victory. It's not happening.

[Bill Simmons]

Number 23 puts up like a triple.

[Sierra]

Double O and Teen Wolf.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

What's number two?

[Van Lathan]

Uh, number, number four is the Karate Kid part two. Um, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not beating that guy.

[Van Lathan]

Not beating. He's not going to Japan. He okay, him winning the All Valley tournament against Johnny is one thing. He goes to Japan and beats up the head of a karate gang.

[Bill Simmons]

Sato's karate gang henchmen dude. He's not winning that.

[Van Lathan]

He's not winning that with them stupid ass drums. He's not doing that. That's not happening.

[Bill Simmons]

Daniel. Son, this time not for points. For life.

[Van Lathan]

For life, for life. It's not happening. Right, but go for it, man.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a quote.

[Van Lathan]

It's a new day.

[Sierra]

So we should add Pat Morita to the cast of characters.

[Bill Simmons]

Have we done Kid 2 yet? It's terrible. Yeah, I don't think we've done it.

[Van Lathan]

Although I will say that one thing.

[Sierra]

Is Swank is three.

[Van Lathan]

Swank is. No, Swank is the next.

[Sierra]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

One thing I do like about these two movies have in common is both Karate Kid Part 2 and Rocky Begin with the recap of the last movie. Number three, necessary roughness. Texas State takes beats. The number one team in the country with a 34 year old quarterback named Paul Blake who hasn't played football in a long time.

[Sierra]

True.

[Van Lathan]

Now at that time, you know we hadn't seen that but you can see a 34 year old quarterback playing in college football all the time now. Number two, the little giants beating the Cowboys. I just don't believe in it. Yeah, I think Spike is going crazy. I don't believe in icebox. I don't believe in anything that the little Giants had going on. And you look at Spike, he's ready for war. He's going to go out there and leave some corpses out there.

[Sierra]

That's number two. This is. And Rocky's number one.

[Van Lathan]

Rocky's number one.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky winning the revision.

[Sierra]

You didn't go after Hoosiers a little bit?

[Van Lathan]

Nah, because Hoosiers. Hoosiers is. I can see it happening in Hoosiers. Chip would get hurt if Hoosiers would have played the team from across the Chip.

[Bill Simmons]

Chip got hurt.

[Van Lathan]

If Hoosiers would have played. If they'd have played like with Hoosiers in Indiana, right?

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

If they'd have played like W.E.B. dwois High School in South Chicago then they probably would have won. But they playing this.

[Bill Simmons]

That's you know, so one eyed Rocky beating a Motivated.

[Van Lathan]

Not happening. They could fight 10 times. Not happening. And it really hasn't happened because people like to go say that Rocky is like Rocky Marciano. Rocky Marciano was a dog.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He beat everybody.

[Van Lathan]

He was a dog. Tough, powerful, all of that.

[Craig]

Can we add an honorable mention to your list? Fan for challengers, which ends in two professional tennis players hugging at the net.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

After doing volleying it back and forth from 2ft away.

[Craig]

Most intense matchup ever.

[Bill Simmons]

They ended the match. I would add to your list, which I enjoyed.

[Sierra]

I like challengers.

[Craig]

I like it too.

[Bill Simmons]

Until that movie's bad. I'm trying to think there's one. So Bad News Bears breaking training.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

They had to cheat with the lineup to win, though. So maybe technically, you know, But I think victory is the one. The loosely still in the soccer.

[Sierra]

Oh, beating the Nazis.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Beating the Nazi team that's been practicing. And it's like they have this ragtag group of POWs. Michael Caine is like a pop belly. And it's fixed. The refs are in the bag. There's no way they tie that game, I don't think. I think they lose, like five to one, Something like that. The Sierra thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Had his Take a word.

[Sierra]

This one leapt off the screen this time. And it basically is following up something Van mentioned in our opening segment. But I think inside of Stallone, there are these two characters. There's his physical form, and he's like, I gotta be an action movie star. I gotta take juice. I gotta be built up. And I am Rocky.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Sierra]

I am synonymous with Rocky. And then there's the other person, which is the more sensitive storyteller, filmmaker, creative side. And if he had listened to that side, this movie would have been called Creed and it would have been the Godfather 2 of sports movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Sierra]

And he would have made a movie about Creed, dealing with the embarrassment and humiliation and shame of losing to this palooka. And what's he gonna do? And he's getting the mail, and his wife won't have sex with him. And. And Duke's like, we gotta do this or whatever. And it would have been awesome. It's in this movie. You see the four scenes with Carl Weathers were like, why can't we get 10 more of these scenes?

[Van Lathan]

It is the better perspective. I couldn't agree more.

[Sierra]

And if we had done that, and then we have one is Rocky, two is Creed, and three is three. And it's just about Clubber Lang. And. And. And it goes. Or, you know, you even jump to four, basically, and, like, have these guys together. But I thought it was just, like.

[Bill Simmons]

So great idea that never would have happened because everybody just wanted to see Rocky win.

[Sierra]

I know, but I'm saying that's why I made 200. When we saw Godfather 2, you probably weren't like, what I want to see is young Vito Corleone.

[Bill Simmons]

You're right.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

From a movie standpoint, you're 100% right. It's a more interesting movie. I just don't think that's why it's a great hot take. I don't know if they ever would have made it.

[Van Lathan]

Mine is that Rocky and Apollo's lives would have been much better if they swap wives.

[Sierra]

That's true.

[Van Lathan]

So Apollo needed some vanilla serenity, right? He needed a little muskrat, a little minx cat to jump on him and calm him down. That's what he needed. Somebody to, like, be cool. Doesn't have to go back. And Rocky needed an alpha, a sister. You know how she looks at him. Apollo's up there. He's reading the hate mail. She's like, stop reading it, right? But Apollo, he can't appreciate that Rocky is okay. Cynthia. Like, he would have been all right with it if they were to swap wives.

[Bill Simmons]

Apollo's wife wouldn't let him work in the gym.

[Van Lathan]

Yes. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You're gonna carry a bucket for these guys. You're a hero.

[Van Lathan]

Look at these guys. Over. She would have been the one to be like, hey, talk to my man like that. You talking to Rocky Balboa, you palooka. So things would have been better for them. I thought that in the movie, I'm like, rocky needs some. You know what I'm saying?

[Sierra]

Rocky three wife squat. It's right there.

[Van Lathan]

Probably already happened. Y' all know how I feel.

[Bill Simmons]

It's great. And it ties into my hottest take. Okay, so glad you brought up Apollo's wife. Apollo's wife. One of the best looking black women of the 1970s.

[Van Lathan]

Talk about it.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's my list.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, shit. Wait. Wait a second.

[Bill Simmons]

I. I knew you would love this more than anybody I know. This is it. This is the content you want?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Let's go.

[Sierra]

Best looking black women of the 1970s.

[Bill Simmons]

My list.

[Van Lathan]

How many sisters are on the list?

[Bill Simmons]

Seven.

[Van Lathan]

Seven sisters.

[Sierra]

How big was the long list? Like, how big was the pool for you?

[Bill Simmons]

No, this was the seven.

[Sierra]

Okay?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think the list. I didn't go in with a number, okay. I went with how I felt as a kid and how I feel now and tried to combine Those two world.

[Van Lathan]

Let's here.

[Bill Simmons]

Diana Ross.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, Is this number one seven or one?

[Bill Simmons]

No, no, no. I'm not. I'm not ranking.

[Sierra]

Oh, you're not rank.

[Van Lathan]

That's really sweet.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Diana Ross. Studio 54. Diana Ross. I like that. Late seventies Diana Ross.

[Van Lathan]

Beautiful.

[Bill Simmons]

Ali's third wife, Veronica Porsche.

[Van Lathan]

Gorgeous.

[Bill Simmons]

Was outrageous.

[Van Lathan]

Gorgeous.

[Bill Simmons]

The best looking athlete wife of all time.

[Van Lathan]

Like next level beautiful.

[Bill Simmons]

So beautiful that she goes to the.

[Sierra]

Hotter than Brittany Holmes.

[Bill Simmons]

He meets her and. Shut the fuck up. He meets her. Ali meets her and immediately gets divorced. As he's trying to fight George Foreman.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Not the best thing, but yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, I gotta have her.

[Van Lathan]

She's gorgeous. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Lola Falana.

[Van Lathan]

Classic.

[Bill Simmons]

Always liked when she showed up on the Love Boat. And I always knew Isaac was getting. Getting in in that episode. It's like, oh, this would be good for Isaac. Thelma from Good Times. I've talked about her many times. Staple career highlights was rember and I getting a picture with her.

[Sierra]

That's four so far.

[Bill Simmons]

That's four.

[Sierra]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Rem and I got a picture with her.

[Sierra]

You're making me a little nervous.

[Bill Simmons]

Go ahead. That was a 14. Okay. Why am I getting making you nervous?

[Sierra]

I'm worried about somebody. You're looking out.

[Van Lathan]

I'm thinking about it too.

[Bill Simmons]

Pam Grier.

[Sierra]

Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

Has to be in there.

[Bill Simmons]

Of course Pam Grier is going to be.

[Van Lathan]

I have to be in there. I can't trust you.

[Bill Simmons]

Apollo's wife. Sylvia. I think her name's Sylvia Miles. Just an absolute smoke show.

[Sierra]

Sylvia Meals.

[Bill Simmons]

And then number one, Jane. Jane Kennedy. Jane Kennedy in the running for best looking anything of all time.

[Van Lathan]

But she almost fucked up.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm saying any era. Like she could move into advance from the 70s into the all time bracket.

[Van Lathan]

The type of lady that your father Hayes just. I wanna make sure you know about Jane Kennedy. I wanna make sure you're up on her. Can I interest you in two people from the 70s? Listen, just two people.

[Bill Simmons]

We're all winners on this list.

[Van Lathan]

We all winners.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Carol Speed.

[Bill Simmons]

Which one was that?

[Van Lathan]

Carol Speed. She's in. I think she's in the Mac. Love her. She's in the Mac or she's in.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm familiar with Carol's work.

[Van Lathan]

Carol speed.

[Bill Simmons]

Marilyn McCoo thought about her. She didn't quite get there for me.

[Van Lathan]

Because the 80s came along and like she will is with big things.

[Bill Simmons]

She solid golded it a little bit.

[Van Lathan]

Solid gold, but in solid gold. That's my era of Marilyn McCoo. Then I go back and I look at Marilyn McCoo when she was in the fifth dimension.

[Sierra]

Oh, that's cool. Marilyn McCoo in the fifth dimension.

[Van Lathan]

Like Marilyn McCool in the 50. Gorgeous. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Jane Kennedy levitated. I had to do the rankings. Veronica is probably the one beat at Jane Kennedy.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Jane Kennedy is otherworldly. Next level gorgeous. Just all time beauty.

[Bill Simmons]

Really, really important sports. Do you know Jane Kennedy is correct. So NFL, the first ever NFL pregame show on cbs. Brent Musburger, Irv Cross and Jane Kennedy. And I think Jane Kennedy followed Phyllis George. I'm not familiar Phyllis George. Initially, it's the three of them. Phyllis George marries John Y. Brown, the Kentucky Fried Chicken guy who buys the Celtics. They replace him with Jane Kennedy. And she's just. Everybody's in love with her from the moment she shows up. And I'm not. Then she married Leon Isaac Kennedy, the star of Penitentiary. Penitentiary.

[Van Lathan]

Things happen.

[Bill Simmons]

Some things happen.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Yeah, we all talk about that.

[Bill Simmons]

Casting what ifs. Couldn't really find any. Except for Chuck Wepner was offered the part of a trainer. But bomb the addition.

[Sierra]

Like, is he supposed to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Because he felt bad because he was the real life Rocky.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah. He's the. The movie's based on him.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And he want to put him in.

[Sierra]

But were they going to make him like Mickey's assistant or something?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think so. They deleted that character from the script. Best that guy award. So. Joe Spinel, Frank McCray.

[Van Lathan]

Man, it's Frank McCray. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Is Franklin Craig of that guy, though.

[Van Lathan]

I think he's that guy.

[Sierra]

Yes. To 99% of the people listening to this podcast, he is.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, fine. Dion. Waiter's the word.

[Sierra]

This is.

[Van Lathan]

I got one.

[Sierra]

Musburger.

[Van Lathan]

Musburger.

[Sierra]

It's Brent Musburger blacks out, wrote his own dialogue. Musburger went nuts. It's like you're like, this is real. This is happening. He's like one many reporters like this one standing next to you. Apollo would say. And he's just like, you're entitled to your opinion. You know, I don't know why I'm doing Pacino, but it's an incredible scene.

[Van Lathan]

It is.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Frank, we have Frank Stallone get some doo wop with him. We get Rocky's commercial agent as a possible DM Waiter. Sure. Slinking out as the Beast. Aftershavers go, well, Stu Nahan got to mention him. And then I think Duke is eligible in this.

[Van Lathan]

Fuck no.

[Bill Simmons]

He's only in like three scenes.

[Sierra]

Yeah, but he's in four movies.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's Not.

[Bill Simmons]

No way for Dion Waiters.

[Van Lathan]

He can't. Well, then if that's the case, he's the Dion Waiters of all. Well, no, because he's way. No.

[Bill Simmons]

I like really good in this.

[Sierra]

If I was going to give it to anybody other than Musburger, but Musburger is just like. It makes this feel like more of a sporting event that the entire country cares about.

[Bill Simmons]

Trying to think of who would be. Now that would be the equivalent of Musburger being in this.

[Van Lathan]

Pat McAfee.

[Bill Simmons]

Pat McAfee.

[Van Lathan]

Craig made a face. You hate him.

[Craig]

I guess.

[Sierra]

It would be McAfee has like, McAfee having.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't think it would be like Joe Buck.

[Craig]

I was gonna say Buck and Aik. It's Buck and Aikman.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah, probably.

[Craig]

Who's a guy who crossed because.

[Van Lathan]

Because you're kill. You're covering like a serious sporting event.

[Sierra]

Well, if it's fights, who does fight? I mean, it would be Ariel Helwani or Kellerman or.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but Brent was like legit on a show that like 20 million people watch before these NFL games. Yeah. It would have to be the most famous announcer now. I think it's Buck probably. I guess it would be Buck recasting couch Director City. I would recast the commercial director with cr and I would just use AI to make it work and just have CR playing a character. Backup choice. Al Pacino. Yeah, Just two minutes of Pacino. You did your flex category, right?

[Craig]

Yeah. My other mini hot take is that Stallone is clearly a better movie runner than Tom Cruise.

[Sierra]

Oh, undoubtedly. He just is.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Tom.

[Craig]

I actually.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it looks like he has wheels.

[Craig]

It just looks more athletic. It looks more natural. Cruz is way too robotic and stiff with it.

[Sierra]

This feels.

[Craig]

You can like, feel how difficult this is with Stallone. He's the best movie runner.

[Bill Simmons]

Who do you think? Stallone. Who is your best movie runner ever?

[Sierra]

I did not come prepared for this.

[Bill Simmons]

Because we know Seagal is the worst.

[Van Lathan]

Seagal.

[Bill Simmons]

Seagal's worst.

[Sierra]

I'd like to go back and watch the Crud up and Leto tape of the two Prefontaine movies just to see it. I haven't seen that in a while.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. I gotta say, Cruz is pretty good in the firm. He's running away from this very stiff.

[Van Lathan]

He. Some of the. Some of his Mission Impossible running scenes are just. Are fantastic, but there's also so much majesty in the way that it's shot.

[Bill Simmons]

They're shooting them all that Eddie Murphy.

[Craig]

48 Hours, Subway, Rocky's sprint feels more like a sprint. It feels like he is truly like at 100 out of 100 and the cruise one cruise's sprint still feels a little bit reserved, like he kind of knows what he's doing. When Rocky sprints in this movie, you're like, this guy is running as fast as.

[Bill Simmons]

The only problem is like Rocky 3 it, you know, weathers throws that sprint. It's pretty clear he eases up on the beach big time.

[Van Lathan]

Do you know who is an underrated movie runner?

[Bill Simmons]

Who?

[Van Lathan]

Michael J. Fox.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh.

[Sierra]

Oh yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Back to the Future.

[Van Lathan]

Back to the Future. Scrappy runner Getting up there. Marty's always running, trying to get some Michael J. Fox, underrated runner.

[Sierra]

I think I was impressed with what little I saw of Austin Butler running and caught stealing. This is keep your eye on him as one for the future. You know, a Don Russ rated rookie for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Put him over here just in case. All right, we'll take one more break, then we'll do Half Assed. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If you want to take control of your finances, Apple Card is where it starts. A credit card that can give you up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase. I have one. I can tell you this is true. I know and love Apple Card. So many places I can use it, especially during a busy time here with football, basketball, the holidays, all at once. I can use my Apple Card on tickets to a game, a gift from my dad, or even tickets as a gift for my dad. Apply for an Apple Card today. It's easy. Just go to the wallet app on your iPhone. Again. That easy? Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and [e-mail] oh, what fun.

[Van Lathan]

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[Bill Simmons]

All right. Half Ass Internet research film is dedicated to Jane Oliver. That was Stallone's first agent. She died. Leroy Neiman's in this. He's drawing a picture of Apollo while he's training.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The book that Rocky reads to Adrian for multiple excruciating scenes is the Deputy Sheriff of Comanche county by Edgar S. Burroughs, published in 1940s. You're a big fan.

[Sierra]

You're a Big Burroughs guy. I know.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Can we talk about the fact that in this movie, Rocky basically, like, learns to read?

[Sierra]

He actually seems pretty adept at reading. I mean, he's doing Zane Gray or Louis Lamour books later in the movies.

[Van Lathan]

I know, but is he. But it.

[Bill Simmons]

So could Rocky not read, or was he just brain damaged?

[Van Lathan]

Well, it seems to me that, like, a secondary story in this movie is Rocky learning to read.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Which should be kind of a big deal.

[Sierra]

Kind of sounding out words. He's reading Edgar Rice Burroughs. It's not like you're like a picture book, so.

[Van Lathan]

I know, but why do we come back to him reading?

[Sierra]

I think it's Stallone being like. Just so you know, I got some shit to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Gonna crank some Burrows in this scene. Estimated 800 schoolchildren used as extras for the Rocky running scene. Adrian's hospital room number was 669, which is considered an angel number. Did you guys know this?

[Sierra]

I didn't.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

669. Is that what it is?

[Bill Simmons]

Yep. There's a novel published by Ballantine in 1979 for Rocky II, and Stallone is credited as the author. And it's a first perspective, so if.

[Sierra]

You'Ve got it, please reach out.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to know about the narrative told by Rocky.

[Sierra]

Except it's. It's, like, written in Rocky's brain pattern, so it's apparently, like.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounds awful.

[Sierra]

It's like, settle down, Faulkner. All right.

[Van Lathan]

Flowers for Algernon type. Yeah.

[Sierra]

And. But when they write about. When he writes about Apollo, it's in the third person and is normally written.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Burt Young lost a lot of weight between the first and second film. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And then they comment. They put in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

So in the. When the scene, right after the fight, when they're in the hospital, they had to, like, pad him to make him seem fatter.

[Van Lathan]

Well, but one of the guys. Somebody says, hey, you lost. You lost a lot of weight. Like, they address it.

[Sierra]

So what's Paulie's arc here? He, at the end of this. At the end of arc is the.

[Bill Simmons]

Word we can use.

[Sierra]

He after one. After the fight, he's basically like, rocky, get me your job with Godso. Then two scenes later, is like a made man and is, like, lording over the docks, Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He's basically. Who's the guy in Wire, Season two?

[Sierra]

Ziggy?

[Bill Simmons]

Frank Sabaka.

[Sierra]

Yeah. Frank Savaca.

[Bill Simmons]

He's basically Sabacca. Yes.

[Sierra]

And then. But is. But he's also like, rocky, you need to thank me for getting you a job. At the meatpacking plant.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Sierra]

What an.

[Bill Simmons]

I hate this guy By. By the fourth movie. He's just living in the guest room, playing with a robot and then getting.

[Van Lathan]

Rocky got and is so angry after he's ruined their lives.

[Sierra]

I know.

[Van Lathan]

Is so angry. What about me? What?

[Bill Simmons]

How come no woman for was. Is it possible Paulie was either asexual or gay?

[Van Lathan]

Could be. This is my. This might be why he was so mad at it.

[Sierra]

I haven't seen the recut version of Rocky for so I don't know.

[Van Lathan]

This might be so. Hey, just. You know what just dawned on me?

[Bill Simmons]

Gay Paulie.

[Van Lathan]

Paulie's in love with Rocky. Oh, this just dawned on me. The reason why he treats Adrian like she this entire time is because he's.

[Bill Simmons]

In the room mad.

[Sierra]

That Rock. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Paulie this entire time was trying to get some of that Italian sausage the entire. He's. He's.

[Bill Simmons]

He's.

[Van Lathan]

He's. He's jealous.

[Bill Simmons]

Or the alcohol. Alcoholism made him incompetent sexually.

[Van Lathan]

Either way.

[Bill Simmons]

Couldn't get one up. They didn't have Viagra back then. Apex Mountain? Stallone. No.

[Van Lathan]

Nah.

[Bill Simmons]

Carl Weathers. No. But maybe Rocky 3. Rocky 4.

[Sierra]

Definitely. Definitely the Spectrum, because we are coming off the back of Broad Street. Broad street bullies.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

Doc.

[Bill Simmons]

This the original Doc. The only doc. You also have some good wrestling back then too.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Wwf, big hotspot. Big matches there in the Spectrum. Yeah, that's good. Spectrum. I like that. Philadelphia Zoo, definitely. Right. That's the most famous thing that's happened.

[Sierra]

I think so. I mean, there's some tigers and stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

There, but Talia Shire, I'm gonna say no.

[Sierra]

Godfather somewhere.

[Bill Simmons]

Godfather two slash two. Rocky.

[Van Lathan]

Maybe even three.

[Sierra]

She's good in three. She's like one of the only redeemed.

[Bill Simmons]

She's.

[Sierra]

She's a redeeming quality of three.

[Bill Simmons]

Bert Young.

[Sierra]

I can't give him any credit for anything here. I'm sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna go mid-80s for Bert when he's in Miami Vice. Rocky 4 and back to school with Rodney Dangerfield.

[Van Lathan]

That's a redeeming role for him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like, what's the guy's name in Back to School Again? The guy who does triple Indy. What's the characters? I can't believe I can't draw this anyway, but he's his muscle.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you say Apex Mountain for Thornton Melon?

[Van Lathan]

Thornton Melon.

[Sierra]

Did you say Apex Mountain for stolen?

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's not.

[Sierra]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not. It's gotta.

[Sierra]

You gotta go into the he forces his way into the direction.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got Rambo 2.

[Van Lathan]

And I think First Blood Part 2 is.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got like, two of the top three movies in 1985.

[Sierra]

I just think by the letter of the law of what Apex Mountain is, which is obviously like a very clear and understandable concept. He forces his way into the director's chair for this sequel, gets points on it, makes $200 million with this movie, creates an iconic character and can pretty much calls him Shot from here.

[Van Lathan]

But if he's at the peak of his powers, it's mid-80s Stallone. Right? He can do whatever he wants.

[Bill Simmons]

Mid-80s Stallone. He could have been like, mid-80s.

[Sierra]

He's trapped in his own body, and he has to just make action movies. Like, you know, it's not until Copland that he truly gets out of that.

[Bill Simmons]

You lost the vote two to one. Burt Young. Brent Musburger. Yes. 1979.

[Sierra]

Brent, you're looking live.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, for me. I've listened to Brent Musburger every Saturday for like. It's like, you know, so. Yeah, I would not be. Look at this as Brent Musburger's apex today. Oh, you know what? Wait, was it. Was it not Brent Musburger when Iron Bull. No, no. What's his name?

[Bill Simmons]

When he called. Yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

A.J. mcCarron's girlfriend.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

How can I not remember her name?

[Bill Simmons]

Kate.

[Van Lathan]

Kathy. This is a huge moment. And he's. That's kind of Apex. Brent Musburger. Right when he was being.

[Bill Simmons]

How about Kunder the tiger? That's the tiger. Rocky. Talk to. Apparently a huge attraction. The Philadelphia Zoo. I think Sierra's embarrassed by the Philadelphia Zoo.

[Sierra]

No, I think it's great.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Coma scenes that go on too long. Have we ever topped this for Rocky 2? 11 minutes.

[Craig]

Man.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a million dollar baby.

[Van Lathan]

Still Magnolias.

[Sierra]

Million Dollar Baby is. That's just the last 10 minutes, right?

[Bill Simmons]

That movie should be shot into the sun. Hate that movie.

[Van Lathan]

We made. We made. Jeomi had never seen it.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, God.

[Sierra]

Did he know anything about it?

[Van Lathan]

Didn't know anything about it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's like, actually cruel. That's it. I'm reporting that day tomorrow.

[Van Lathan]

Jomi didn't know anything about it. Jomi had never seen it. Know anything about it. We talked about it. I'm like, hey, Chuck. I was like, jamie, go home and watch Million Dollar Baby and then report back to us. And he. He text me that night, all caps. What the fuck? You just can't see it coming.

[Sierra]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

Totally turns and somehow that movie won the Oscar.

[Sierra]

That happens like what, halfway through the movie?

[Van Lathan]

Not halfway. Like maybe you've seen it, right?

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Craig]

What are you talking about? When she dies?

[Sierra]

No, when she breaks her neck.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I can't remember.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's the ending. It's the last 50 minutes of the movie.

[Van Lathan]

It's like three quarter of the way through or something like that. I can't remember.

[Bill Simmons]

Boxing movies? No. 1979 Pontiac Firebird. Trans Ams. Yes. That was the apex cruiser Hanks for this movie. Who would have been a better Rocky? I must like.

[Van Lathan]

It's like.

[Sierra]

It's too bad that Cruz never did a boxing movie because, you know, they.

[Bill Simmons]

Far and away considers it a boxing movie. That's true.

[Van Lathan]

Bare knuckle boxing right there.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to say Hanks.

[Van Lathan]

No, Hanks is Rocky no Rock. Cruz Hanks can't do this.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz fighting for the welterweight title.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Scorsese or Spielberg?

[Sierra]

I think Marty.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's Marty. But I would like to see Spielberg's version. This big expansive like morality tale that he would make this into. But it's definitely Scorsese.

[Bill Simmons]

What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? Probably Mickey.

[Van Lathan]

Paulie.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Polly.

[Sierra]

It would be a good poly.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

Or a good commercial director.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have for picking net cr?

[Sierra]

We've gone over the ones that I. That I had a lot of these.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. I have some left after the first fight. Rocky's definitely getting more than one commercial. I think Sports Illustrated's following him for a giant feature. And Gary Smith. I think people are just throwing money at Rocky.

[Van Lathan]

This has always been an issue with this franchise.

[Bill Simmons]

He's way more successful and popular after the first fight.

[Van Lathan]

So even when he loses his money. We've talked about this before. In five. And then he has to move back to the ghetto in Philly.

[Craig]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

It just doesn't make any sense. He is the greatest heavyweight of his generation. He just beat.

[Sierra]

But I thought is that Mick set up 10 easy fights for him so that he wouldn't get hurt again. So like, is he really the greatest heavyweight or is he just get.

[Van Lathan]

He's beaten Clubber Lang. He legit legend. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Most popular.

[Van Lathan]

He's beaten Clubber Lang. And also he has beaten the Soviets on the worldwide stage. He has. He's beaten the Soviets on the worldwide stage.

[Bill Simmons]

He got the Soviets to root for him.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. He's signing autographs. He's doing the whole thing. Rocky's getting put. Rocky is not going to. This fighter exists. This guy that continues to come back Mike Tyson. Based upon the strength of his personal brand, this fighter exists. He's not going broke.

[Bill Simmons]

They make it seem like the fight's a year after the last fight. So you're going early 77 Philly. Right. He's going to Sixers games that year. He's at the finals.

[Sierra]

He's going to hockey.

[Bill Simmons]

He's going. He's like going around. He's getting invited to stuff. He probably somebody owns like some cheese steak store or something that they. He probably has his name on a pizza place. Come to Rocky.

[Sierra]

I don't think all these opportunities. I think the problem was him getting hoodwinked and not being able to deliver. I mean, he was. He could have been in those commercials. He fucked up.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Paul is running some sort of. He becomes the maverick Carter for Rocky and he's like getting him. He does his version of Spring Hill. He's got a content company.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got. All kinds of things are happening for him.

[Sierra]

He would have a drive time radio show.

[Van Lathan]

Rock Rocky Balboa boxing show.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not doing one commercial and then working as the bucket guy in the gym at this.

[Van Lathan]

It's not happening.

[Bill Simmons]

That's not happening.

[Van Lathan]

Well, he's doing cameos in movies.

[Sierra]

I asked for possibly unanswerable questions, but was the solution here for Rocky just to invest in condominiums? Would that have been like.

[Bill Simmons]

That would have been the time to do it, yeah. Mid-70s.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Apollo didn't fight for six months after the Rocky fight.

[Sierra]

How often do you guys box?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. Back then they're fighting every two, three months.

[Van Lathan]

Well, if you're not. If you had a chance, right? Vina champion fighting.

[Bill Simmons]

Ali fought like six times a year.

[Van Lathan]

Not when he was in his. Not when he was really Muhammad.

[Bill Simmons]

75 to 78. He fought like 19 times, huh?

[Van Lathan]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, like, he's fighting Shavers. Fight Norton again, Fight Dwayne Bobbick. Like, he just kind of kept going.

[Van Lathan]

But if you know you're a guy and you want the rematch.

[Sierra]

Didn't Tyson used to fight like twice a year?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, guys fought a lot back then.

[Van Lathan]

On the way up. Like. But when you get to the point, twice a year is one thing, but when no heavyweight of that ilk is.

[Sierra]

Fighting six times, it's also works because Apollo's obsessed with Rocky.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

Because they're like, we can get you this guy. We can get you that guy. He's like, I want Rocky.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky chasing a chicken. The worst training idea ever in a sports movie.

[Van Lathan]

Like, what the fuck Roy Jones does that.

[Bill Simmons]

Really.

[Sierra]

In homage to Rocky or just because it's good for you?

[Van Lathan]

I think both.

[Bill Simmons]

It feels like that's how Covid could have started. Like a boxer chasing a chicken. That was ground zero. That's good.

[Sierra]

An alternative to lab leak.

[Bill Simmons]

What was going on in Philly that hundreds of kids were just hanging out outside?

[Sierra]

We're a great sports town.

[Craig]

What were they protesting?

[Sierra]

It was probably like a trash strike or something.

[Bill Simmons]

Ali's nitpick was that they would have stopped the fight once his eyes closed. And then the double knockdown we covered. Rocky falling would have been ruled as slip. And in real life, if both fighters get up, the fight just keeps going. If you both get up before the count of 10, we're going. Apollo stayed out.

[Sierra]

It's not about beating a guy to getting up.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's not beating a guy. Here's my.

[Van Lathan]

Isn't that just. As an aside. Isn't that one of the most dramatic ways, maybe the most dramatic way to end a boxing.

[Sierra]

Don't they have to get up in time before the last count to beat the count?

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, but it's not. I got up before you, so I won.

[Van Lathan]

Right. Like, one thing that boxing movies have a problem with a lot of times is how dramatic the ending of the fight is. Some guy gets knocked out. How. How dramatic can you make a knockout? If it goes to the decision, how dramatic is. But this is legitimately probably like, the most dramatic way. Like, double knockout. Who's gonna get up first?

[Bill Simmons]

I have a small nitpick on Apollo's boxing. I've never seen anybody just take body shots like that.

[Sierra]

Well, don't neither of them defend very well.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Apollo's supposed to be the greatest fighter. Rocky's just, like, going to town, but.

[Sierra]

Rocky's like, hit me in the fucking eye. That might fall out of my head. The whole time, he's not defending his face at all.

[Bill Simmons]

Put your elbows down. Try to block him. Here's my biggest nitpick, though. So Adrian's in a coma for a while, like three weeks.

[Sierra]

You think Rocky was just getting something on the side?

[Bill Simmons]

No tubes. She's lying in the bed.

[Sierra]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She's not connected to anything.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

She's going to the bathroom, Right. Is there food, water, anything? It's a good one. She's just like, yeah, I'm in a coma.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Huh?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You gonna go see Adrian? Yeah, let's go see her. Nothing. That's just what comas were like it in 1979.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

People were tougher.

[Bill Simmons]

Sequel, prequel, prestige TV, all black caster, untouchable. They've done all of these except Prestige tv.

[Sierra]

Except for the literal Creed prequel.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, Prestige TV might be coming. Did you hear Mike's got a show coming?

[Sierra]

Set in the world of.

[Van Lathan]

Set in the world of creep.

[Bill Simmons]

Michael B. Jordan.

[Sierra]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think he's going to be in it, or if he is, I think he's just going to be.

[Van Lathan]

Mike is now the Kevin Feige of the Creed universe. He's got a Creed verse coming.

[Bill Simmons]

Be interesting. Just need to get him an Oscar nomination.

[Van Lathan]

I think it's coming. It should.

[Bill Simmons]

You think it's happening?

[Van Lathan]

Well, I don't know. Like, the year all of a sudden got super duper crowded. I still think that he deserves one, but I just.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm really mad if he doesn't get nominated.

[Van Lathan]

I think Autumn will get nominated. The cinematographer, I think Ryan will get nominated. And I'm really. I think would be awesome if Mike got nominated, too. I think it was a great performance.

[Bill Simmons]

My dude, Joel Edgerton might get nominated.

[Van Lathan]

Train Dreams. Good movie.

[Sierra]

Did you see Train Dreams?

[Bill Simmons]

It's fucking awesome movie.

[Sierra]

Bill, you never cease to surprise me.

[Bill Simmons]

I. Why wouldn't I have loved Train Dreams? That was great.

[Van Lathan]

The movie, good movie.

[Bill Simmons]

See Train Dream.

[Sierra]

Didn't you not like weapons? Like, I don't even know how to like.

[Bill Simmons]

Weapons is fine.

[Sierra]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Train Dreams is awesome.

[Craig]

I haven't seen it yet. That's the Sing Sing guys, right?

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

It's a great movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I had no idea it was gonna be. I. A couple people told me it was good.

[Van Lathan]

Sean.

[Sierra]

I thought it was amazing. I'm just surprised that you liked it.

[Van Lathan]

Sean put me on the movie. Sean told me about it. That's caught Jack, like, doing something like Train Dreams was good. You know, Sean had already seen it. He saw Train dreams, probably like 20, 21. So he had already seen the movie. So he goes, hey, man, like, this is like one of those films went south and it lived up to the hype.

[Bill Simmons]

It was great. Is Rocket 2 better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Mad Dog Russo, Doris Burke, Buffalo Bill, Sam Jackson, Nell Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Long Legs or Wilford Brimley?

[Sierra]

Oh, Mike, she doesn't even have tubes in her. She's just sleeping there. It's a Wednesday night in Philly. You know, I. I feel like we need new names. We've talked about this.

[Van Lathan]

He stopped in the middle of.

[Sierra]

Why is he doing Collinsworth?

[Van Lathan]

Collinsworth is good.

[Craig]

Yeah. You're not doing Wayne Jenkins for this. Yeah.

[Sierra]

No.

[Van Lathan]

All right. Can if we. If it's not. I don't even know if we need new ones, but we should just thin out some of these.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to get new ones for 26. Can I give you one that's not on the list?

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

20, 25. Al Michaels doing the double knockdown scene.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

And Rocky's knockdown Creed. They're both down. Whoever gets up before 10 seconds is going to win this. Al, come on. You're one of the best announcers. I need a little more. I just need a little more.

[Sierra]

New season.

[Van Lathan]

Take the time to disable.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I just need more. I know more is in there.

[Sierra]

A new season of the Boys now streaming on Amazon Prime Video.

[Bill Simmons]

Just. Yeah, Al can get more excited. They've had some good Thursday night games this year. Need a little more from Al. Just one Oscar. Who gets it? Bill Conti.

[Sierra]

What a great call. Yeah, I mean, I guess he's running back the same score from the first one. Change the key in a couple of places.

[Bill Simmons]

Or Apollo's wife probably. Unanswerable questions. Did Adrian. Adrian's Pet Store ever have a customer?

[Van Lathan]

Nobody's ever in there.

[Bill Simmons]

What does she.

[Sierra]

What could she possibly be making?

[Van Lathan]

Like, what is it? It's 19.

[Sierra]

It's like an exotic pet store in South Philadelphia.

[Bill Simmons]

Any pet store need that much bird feed?

[Van Lathan]

Actually, the only person that ever bought. Did. Did Rocky not buy something in there for his turtle?

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

For his turtle or for his. Didn't he buy something for the dog, too?

[Sierra]

Oh, yeah, for. What's the dog's name again?

[Van Lathan]

Brutus?

[Sierra]

Buckus.

[Van Lathan]

Buckus.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, oh, good. Adrian's gonna be able to work part time at our pet store with no customers. Sitting right across the street from the boxing gym. What kind of foot traffic did they get? We mentioned Godzilla earlier. The Mafia bookie Gozzo or Godzo.

[Sierra]

I think it's just Gonzo. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What happened to him before Rocky 3?

[Sierra]

That's a great question.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

You think he got taken out in the, like a Italian restaurant?

[Van Lathan]

Hey, you know what? You know what happened between Rocky III is What year again?

[Bill Simmons]

82.

[Van Lathan]

82. This was the time when the RICO statutes came in.

[Sierra]

This is the Irishman.

[Van Lathan]

This is the whole time they're fucking. They fucking open.

[Bill Simmons]

Keys got blown up at the docks one day.

[Sierra]

They blew up the chicken man in Philly last night. Rocky, they said it's Bruce Springsteen. Lyric.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky was a five to one underdog for this fight. They say Would you have bet that.

[Sierra]

After the first five to one seems like pretty.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretty tasty. I think Sal and I would have talked ourselves into that.

[Sierra]

You would have parlayed it with something stupid, though.

[Bill Simmons]

I would have done Rocky for the knockout.

[Sierra]

Let's do Rocky. But let's get the Hartford Whalers in here too.

[Van Lathan]

Columbus Blue Jackets.

[Bill Simmons]

That would have been. So Sal would have taken like, a high favorite. What piece of memorabilia?

[Sierra]

Wait, I just want to ask a one unanswerable question.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

Does Rocky love boxing?

[Van Lathan]

No, not at all. He. Well, so he's a club fighter. It's something that he is really good at.

[Sierra]

Feels like he's trapped. Boxing.

[Van Lathan]

Feels. Yeah.

[Sierra]

He's like this. This body, this mind, you know, I have a few gifts. This is what I have to do. But I don't feel like he's ever like, man, I can't get back. Wait to get back in the ring. Because I love it.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if Rocky had a lot of opportunities.

[Sierra]

Yeah, right.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the thing. But it's like asking, like, if. If Murph loves going on walks. Like, I. I just don't know if there's a lot going on intellectually for Rocky. Well, like, what would Rocky's dream have been? Like? I really love the theater.

[Sierra]

I don't know. He seems captivated by the old West.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, he.

[Van Lathan]

Rocky didn't want the rematch with Apollo at all. And you would think that he is the one that will want it more than anybody.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Rocky loved boxing. What else did he have? He just fucking walked around with a Super bowl occasionally would stop by the Doo up guys. Maybe they had a good fire going. What do you think he loved, like, independent movies?

[Sierra]

That's really the only thing I'm talking about.

[Bill Simmons]

I love De Palma's movies. Lately, they've been really good. Like, what did he have?

[Sierra]

He wasn't a substitute dress to kill.

[Bill Simmons]

He didn't love, like, the flyers. We never did. What were Rocky's hobbies? I don't know. Couldn't drive. Terrible driver.

[Sierra]

Presumably he knows a little bit about sports gambling because he's collecting for the mob.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

That's one of my favorite TV movie things. When the guy can't drive and they park and they hit, like, the garbage cans.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

What piece of memorability would you want or not want from this movie? I think it's the Beast aftershave bottle for me.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, very stealth, but I could put it, like, right behind cr. Like right there, right next to the Patriot helmet just have the beast aftershave. I also like his fake broken nose eye thing for the commercial that you take on and off. That'd be fun to have. And then the trunks.

[Van Lathan]

Apollo's trunks either.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I would like trunks, gloves, anything from the.

[Van Lathan]

The car too. The car is fly.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sierra]

The snow cone machine that Rocky says he's gonna buy. Paulie. Oh, I miss having snow cones. It's really good.

[Van Lathan]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

One year coach Finstock award for best life lesson.

[Sierra]

Do you have one?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Listen to your trainer.

[Van Lathan]

Don't listen to your ego. That's what got Apollo. What got Apollo, like legitimately relegated to a co star in Rocky's universe.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Is he was too anxious. He was chasing it. He could have literally.

[Sierra]

If he hadn't read it. Don't read your mentions, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't read your hate mail.

[Van Lathan]

Read your hate mail. He could have literally let Rocky fade away into obscurity.

[Sierra]

Yeah, nobody would have. Nobody would remember that.

[Van Lathan]

And, and this, the whole thing is about Apollo, but it's about Rocky now because Apollo chased it.

[Bill Simmons]

Double feature choice. Would you go one or three?

[Sierra]

You know, I would go three just for variety because I feel like this is so close to one.

[Bill Simmons]

I would do three because in the marathon, the 28 minutes from two, when then they would go to Rocky 3, the first like 5, 10 minutes of Rocky 3, which is like probably the best stretch in the history.

[Sierra]

Although can I make a recommendation from the not Rocky universe for Digstown.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, what a movie. Digstown, honey.

[Bill Simmons]

Roy Palmer, James woods and Blu Ray.

[Sierra]

I'm sure he does.

[Bill Simmons]

Diggs Count for 4K. UHD.

[Van Lathan]

What is the movie? It's a boxing movie, but it's got Cuba Gooding Jr. Oh, Gladiator.

[Sierra]

I love James Marshall.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And the guy from Few Good Men.

[Van Lathan]

The guy from Few Good Men. How, how, how?

[Sierra]

Completely answer the officer's question.

[Van Lathan]

Ask him a question. Like how, how? Like literally, man, shout out to our men and women in service.

[Bill Simmons]

Brian Danahy gets in the ring with him at the end and at the end he. Gladiator's good.

[Van Lathan]

Gladiator's good. And he's punching and he puts his forehead down like that to make him hurt us. Yeah. Gladiator's good too. Gladiator is my dick's down double feature.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, who won the movie? Stallone.

[Van Lathan]

Stallone wins.

[Sierra]

Yeah, directed, wrote it.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, what do you got?

[Craig]

I think the Rocky franchise is really interesting because you get to witness in real time the transition from 70s Hollywood to 80s Hollywood. And you have the first two movies are in the 70s, and it's the gritty 70s, and then the next two are in the 80s, and it's like the glossy 80s. The first two movies are two hours. The next two movies are 90 minutes. And I gotta be honest, I think I like 3 and 4. I don't love that. That's my opinion. But I'm like, I can't help.

[Sierra]

I'm not sure I don't disagree. I'm not sure I don't agree.

[Van Lathan]

The red opinion is clear.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why we 3 and 4 first before we did 1 and 2.

[Craig]

Like, the end of these movies, all of them are fantastic. My dad and I watched this over Thanksgiving break, and we, like, basically both fell asleep halfway through the movie. But then by the time you get to the end, we were like, shadow boxing our way out of the living room.

[Sierra]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So it always delivers at the end, but it's a tough first 90 minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

It is. You could.

[Sierra]

YouTube kind of killed this movie for sure. You could watch the montage. You can watch the fight, and you're like, I'm good.

[Craig]

I mean, YouTube did a lot of harm in many ways to movies. I feel like now you can. Like, I talk to my two brothers in law, and every big movie, they're like, oh, I just. I saw the end of that movie on YouTube, and I'm like, fuck, are you even gonna watch it? And they're like, well, there'll be blood. Like the bowling. I saw the bowling alley.

[Sierra]

Well, it's like, seriously? Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

You just watch, like, the 20 best endings in movie history, but, you know, throw that up on YouTube, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm such a girl's going to hell, Sierra.

[Van Lathan]

I'm such an idiot that that makes me watch movies I like. I got something that popped up in my algorithm that the whole YouTube video was about the way that Sicario is written. Like, how the actual protagonist of Sicario is Benicio Del Toro's character, but the whole script makes you think that it's Emily Blunt's character the whole time.

[Sierra]

Have you seen Sicario?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, heard it. Heard good things.

[Van Lathan]

You guys.

[Sierra]

Heard we did Two for the Money the other week that was pitched to me by Bill as, here's your birthday movie, Sicario.

[Van Lathan]

And so I watched this.

[Sierra]

I was just like, that's not how this is supposed to work.

[Van Lathan]

I watched the whole video, and then the video's maybe, like, four minutes long about the true hero of Sicario. Whatever. Oh, how Sicario Fools the audience, I think is the name of the video. And then I went and watched Sicario like last night when I should have been watching doing higher learning stuff so that pod's gonna suck today. But like I went and I watched Sicario, watched the whole thing back.

[Craig]

It's just hard. There's a lot of like TikTok top 10 performances of the 21st century and you're watching like the climaxes of all these great movies.

[Sierra]

Yeah, I've slipped on some of the some of my favorites. Like I feel like it's been a while since I watched a few good men in full but have watched you can't handle the truth and you cut these guys loose like you know, 300 times.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I mean we have stuff like Landman to watch now.

[Sierra]

That's true real art.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks to Craig, thanks to G. Thanks to Eduardo. Don't do that top seven social clip.

[Van Lathan]

Why are you getting weird about it? It's fine.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll be back at the rewatchables next week.

[Van Lathan]

Sam.