‘Rocky’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rewatchables – Episode ‘Rocky’ with Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

Introduction

In this episode of The Rewatchables, hosted by Bill Simmons, the trio—Bill, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey—delve deep into the iconic film Rocky. Released on March 4, 2025, the episode offers an extensive analysis of the movie's enduring legacy, its characters, technical achievements, and its profound impact on both cinema and popular culture.

Rocky: An Influential Prototype for Sports Movies

Bill Simmons begins by asserting the monumental significance of Rocky in the landscape of sports cinema. He states, “Rocky is one of the most important movies of the last 50 years,” highlighting its role as a prototype for modern sports narratives. The hosts discuss how Rocky established the underdog archetype that has influenced countless films since its release.

Character Analysis

• Rocky Balboa: The heart of the discussion centers on Rocky as the quintessential underdog. Sean Fennessey remarks, “Rocky's talent is determination,” emphasizing Rocky's relentless perseverance that resonates with audiences across generations.

• Apollo Creed: Chris Ryan praises Apollo as a revolutionary character, noting, “Apollo is a much better trainer than Mickey is. Apollo is way better.” The character’s depth as a charismatic businessman who manipulates media underscores the movie’s exploration of race and capitalism.

• Adrian Pennino: Talia Shire’s portrayal of Adrian receives commendation for adding emotional depth to the narrative. Sean notes, “She is a fantastic actress, obviously. But when she turns it up to that point, sometimes it gets away from her,” acknowledging the balance between her vulnerability and strength.

• Paulie Pennino: Perhaps the most contentious character, Paulie is dissected for his abrasive personality. Bill Simmons criticizes him, stating, “Paulie is one of the worst human beings in a movie,” while Sean adds, “He is a pimp. He literally pimps his sister out.”

Technical Mastery: Steadicam and Fight Choreography

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the film's technical prowess. The introduction of the Steadicam is highlighted as a transformative element in filmmaking. Bill Simmons shares, “Rocky winds up becoming more or less the guinea pig for the technology that changes cinema,” crediting the Steadicam for its innovative filming techniques that enhanced the movie’s dynamic fight scenes.

Impact on Pop Culture and Sports Cinema

The hosts explore Rocky's cultural ripple effects, from inspiring real-life jogging trends to spawning a multi-billion-dollar franchise. Bill Simmons reflects, “$1.1 million budget made 225 million. Spawned five sequels and three Creed movies. So eight sequels overall.” They discuss how Rocky not only redefined sports movies but also embedded itself into American mythology, comparable to legendary figures like Paul Bunyan.

Stallone’s Career and Rocky’s Creation

Sylvester Stallone’s journey in creating and starring in Rocky is examined in detail. The decision to write and star in the film as a relatively unknown actor is lauded as a bold bet on oneself. Bill Simmons narrates Stallone’s struggle to sell the script, saying, “The only difference though is those got around for a while, but Stallone had been in movies affecting Damon.” This determination led to Rocky becoming a breakthrough success.

Oscars and Critical Reception

Despite its massive popularity, Rocky faced stiff competition during the Oscars. The hosts recount, “This movie won three Oscars: Best Picture, Best Director, and Best Editing,” noting its historic win as the first sports film to achieve such acclaim. However, Stallone was snubbed for acting, losing to Peter Finch and others, which sparks a conversation about the industry's reception of underdog stories.

Rewatchability and Favorite Scenes

The discussion turns to why Rocky remains a rewatchable favorite. Bill Simmons identifies several standout moments, including the "Gonna Fly Now" training montage and the climactic fight scenes. Chris Ryan highlights the emotional resonance of Rocky’s interactions with Adrian and the gym dynamics, while Sean Fennessey points out the film's ability to evoke genuine emotion, noting, “The movie just tells this unbelievable story that everybody wishes was their story.”

Sequels and the Creed Series

The evolution of the Rocky franchise is unpacked, with particular attention to the Creed movies. The hosts appreciate how the sequels expanded the universe while maintaining the original's spirit. Bill Simmons remarks, “Creed is my take on the Rocky series,” praising the continuation of Rocky’s legacy through his protégés.

Conclusion: Rocky’s Enduring Legacy

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on Rocky's lasting impact. Bill Simmons states, “Rocky really made Philadelphia. That's my hot take,” emphasizing the film’s role in shaping the city’s cultural identity. They acknowledge that while Rocky may have its flaws, its inspirational story and technical innovations ensure its place as a timeless classic.

Notable Quotes

• Bill Simmons [02:01]: “Rocky is one of the most important movies of the last 50 years.”
• Sean Fennessey [03:53]: “Rocky's talent is determination.”
• Chris Ryan [05:26]: “Apollo is a much better trainer than Mickey is.”
• Bill Simmons [16:14]: “Apollo Creed single best fictional name. It's up there with Darth Vader.”
• Sean Fennessey [25:53]: “Rocky is doing something super duper relatable.”
• Bill Simmons [48:04]: “This is the definition of a rewatchable because we know that we're looking at Rocky Balboa.”
• Sean Fennessey [94:39]: “Boxing is the only place where it's still completely acceptable to be totally tribal.”

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Rewatchables offers a comprehensive exploration of Rocky, celebrating its triumphs while critically examining its shortcomings. Through insightful conversation and memorable quotes, Bill, Chris, and Sean provide listeners with a deeper appreciation of why Rocky continues to resonate as a beloved classic in the annals of film history.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

What's up, Rewatchables fans? As you know, we've done live shows in New York, in Philly, D.C. in Chicago, L.A. many times. We've never done Boston. I've been saving it for the right moment. The right moment is here. It's going to be Thursday, March 27th. It's going to be the House of Blues, which is right by Fenway Park. And it's going to be the dream team. Me, Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy and Ryan Rossillo. That's right. We're all coming back. We're not doing the town. We're not touching the town. That one episode lives on Forever on YouTube, Spotify. We're not redoing it, but we'll probably do a Boston movie. All information will be on the ringer.com events very soon. Once again, the Rewatchables live Boston, Thursday, March 27 houseofbluesringer.com events and we're going to have a couple more things we're doing that weekend, too. So I'm very excited. We have not come to Boston yet and we're going to do it right. Hope to see you there. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln. There's something buzzy in the air. Spring is coming. The mood is shifting and new journeys are beginning. Say goodbye to the winter blues and experience the revitalizing qualities of driving a Lincoln. Everything about a Lincoln is designed to invigorate our senses. And the Lincoln spring sales event, it's happening right now. Step outside and visit your local lincoln retailer or lincoln.com to find some seriously mood enhancing offers on current and past Lincoln models. Learn [e-mail] the Rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast network. We are now available on video on Spotify. We have a YouTube channel as well that you can find on Ringer Movies. Van Lathan is here. You can find him on Higher Learning. You can find him on Midnight Boys. Beep, beep.

[Chris Ryan]

Pew, pew. Come on, you know that he's just.

[Sean Fennessey]

Fucking with me, man. He did this the last time, too. It's pew, pew, pew, pew.

[Bill Simmons]

Chris Ryan, what are you up to?

[Chris Ryan]

He's like. He's like the, like the Roadrunner and the Coyote now. Yeah, yeah, I make the watch.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, great. Lot of good tv.

[Chris Ryan]

There's some great television on. Yeah, that's great.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'm Bill and we're about to do Rocky, one of the most important movies the last 50 years. Let's go. His name is Sylvester Stallone. He's the star of a new Film called Rocky. He has been described as handsome, tough, talented, sexy, sensitive, dynamic and brilliant. He's been compared to Brando, Newman, Bino and Dairo. He's been called a top contender for an Academy Award. Sylvester Stallone in Rocky, rated pg. All right, I'm gonna start here. Rocky is now a prequel for Rocky iii. Prove me wrong.

[Chris Ryan]

No, you're right.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's so funny. I wrote it's coming up in the category, like prequel. I'm like, this movie is a prequel.

[Chris Ryan]

It is the prequel.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's one of the most important, I think, movies of the last 50 years. I'm going to make a case. And it's prototype for sports movies. And yet now, all these years later, I'm like, oh, I like how they're setting this up for the pinball machine in Rocky iii.

[Chris Ryan]

I was trying to think of an example of what happens in Rocky 1. And it's basically imagine if Godfather was entirely about Kate and Mich. Not in New York City, Kay and Michael just hanging out, going on dates, going to the movies, you know, like reading books to each other, checking out the Sunday Times, going to a skating ride. And then at the very end, like, Don Corleone dies, you know, and like. And he's like, I have to take over the family. So it's like, it's crazy. There's the boxing. Does not happen to the last 13 minutes of this movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Shockingly absent from the film. The lore of the Rocky movies, after you watch all of them, and then you come back to this one. What a quaint, emotionally devastating film.

[Bill Simmons]

Mid 70s character study.

[Sean Fennessey]

Character study of a guy that's trying to, like, take this opportunity for the rest of his life. Something that's super duper relatable.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's funny because from a rewatchable standpoint, and this movie's in the running for probably most rewatched movies on cable and just diving in halfway through it. But you never watch the first half hour of it when it's just establishing over and over again what a loser he is.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Choosing not in the rewatch thing, you'll come in and be like, oh, he's taking the Apollo fight. I'm gonna start watching. And there's just some gut wrenching scenes in that first 30 minutes, which is why it ended up winning Best Picture. And.

[Chris Ryan]

But is that also why you've been a little bit reticent to do it?

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

On the pod.

[Bill Simmons]

I just wanted to do Rocky 3 first because I think it's one of the great movies of all time. This, when I say it's one of the most influential movies of the past 15 years, the case would be this created the sports movie prototype, like just period created the underdog, the modern version of that underdog. They. You know, there's millions of movies from 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s that did this, but this nailed it to the point that you would just compare. It could be sports, it could be non sports. If there was like that kind of Rocky type of character. Like, oh, this is like Rocky, um, and then just the beats of like something leading to the big game, big event, whatever, which I guess you could say Longest Yard started it, but once Rocky did this.

[Chris Ryan]

But I was wondering if this was the first time you remember seeing in a movie sports narratives and storylines getting manipulated from behind the scenes in a kind of dark arts way to create a sensation.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right?

[Chris Ryan]

Cause like, all the stuff that Apollo and, and Jurgens are doing where they're like, well, we gotta pick this guy. Yeah, because they'll believe in this guy. And this is like how we're gonna do. What I'm gonna do is knock him out here, you know, and it's like all the stuff that feels like it's not the, the pure athleticism and the, the triumph of like the little guy over the big guy. It's like actually like there's all this other stuff happening in the grimy CD underbelly.

[Bill Simmons]

So, like, what else was doing that before this? Probably nobody.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't remember. I couldn't really think of an example of a sports movie that did that where it's like, here's all this gross happening underneath. I'm sure there's like 1930s and 40s boxing movies where, like a Mafia guy is trying to get a boxer to take a dive or whatever. But Apollo is like manipulating the media in this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Certainly it's a movie that at its heart is about this guy's golden opportunity. But then it also gets into why that's happening. Everybody wants to believe somewhere, somewhere, somewhere, someplace right now that people are having a conversation about you that's gonna end in you doing this great, amazing thing. And then to watch that happen, and then watch the guy that it's happening to, knowing that he did absolutely zero to, like, deserve it. It's all right.

[Bill Simmons]

Turns down the fight when it's offered him, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Immediately turns it down.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I don't deserve to be in the ring with that guy. He's that self aware.

[Sean Fennessey]

But it's the thing that's going to save his life and propel him, like legitimately. In the last scene of the movie, when Adrian is walking to the ring, like her hat falls off. Like her hat falls off. She looks back for the hat. That version of her is gone now. Yeah, like the mousy, like I don't know that I'm beautiful. I'm trying to hide from the world version.

[Bill Simmons]

And then rocket, the Rocky 3 version's coming.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, she's looking, she's going to a coma first.

[Bill Simmons]

But yeah, Rocket 3 Adrian. That's fantastic.

[Sean Fennessey]

So it's like it. The movie just tells this unbelievable story that everybody wishes was. Was their story.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Guy, loser, got nothing going, gets his one chance, actually comes through, gets the girl, and then it's ripped off for the next 48, 49 years. Which I think is unfairly held against this. The only other nitpick is just that there's, it's. There's some slow parts. I think this is one of the five movies I've seen the most. Just cause it's been around for so.

[Chris Ryan]

Long and was this like an early, like watching it on cable over and over again, or do you have it on tape? You didn't see this in the theater, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I did. I have a whole story. Okay, so in Dedham, Massachusetts with my dad, 1976.

[Sean Fennessey]

Must have been big in Boston.

[Bill Simmons]

There were not a lot of non whites in the theater. I'll just say that you guys are, yeah, get him, get him, get em.

[Sean Fennessey]

Get off our bosses.

[Bill Simmons]

Wasn't a diverse crowd in denim. But first of all, it was amazing. I just never had been to a movie like that. But leaving that my big memory was being confused whether he won the fight or not. And asking my dad like, but, but what was the scorecard? But they said 8, 7, Apollo. And then they never said what the rest of the card was. How do. And I was just so confused. And then, you know, upon rewatches, you realize what happened.

[Chris Ryan]

But yeah, see, I, I was very much more. I think I might have first seen Rocky 4 in the theater. Yeah, went backwards. So Rocky 1 exists in this really weird.

[Bill Simmons]

In the prequel world.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, well, it just is like when you watch it when you're younger, you're kind of like, this sucks, you know, like, this guy's a loser. Everything does not paint like the most flattering portrait of Philadelphia. And you're just kind of like, oh man, this is a real bummer. I much prefer 2 and 3 and 4. But then as you get older, I think you see the artistry of it and you realize it's part of, like, in context, it's essentially like Stallone making Mean Streets.

[Sean Fennessey]

If you first see Rocky III or iv, like I did as well. It's not even the same species of human that Rocky is. They have discovered the steroids. By the time three and four have come along, they don't even look the same. Rocky I. Those movies are action movies, essentially.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky iii.

[Sean Fennessey]

Rocky III and those, like, are big action movies. It's really all about the physicality of the film. Of course, there's the character stuff in there, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Crossed with, like, a music video where it just moves from big sequence to big sequence.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right. Like this one. You got to give yourself some space with it. For a long time, I didn't enjoy it at all. I. The more I started to actually live life.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And understand and. And got the understanding that life is a lot more like Rocky 1 than it is like Rocky 3. The movie just. It gained a lot of love, real estate with me.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it also feels very mid-70s as a movie. This ties into a lot of other great movies. I mean, this is such an unbelievable time for movies that 74 to 78 stretch and just the way they did it. I just think even five years later, the movie's different. Like, we're only. They make this in 76. We're eight years away from Karate Kid, which is the next. The 2.0 version of this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And that is a completely different movie in every respect. This is slow. It's really trying to build character. It's trying to have these little moments. It's a love story. It has some characters that are.

[Chris Ryan]

When you talk about Karate Kid and you even talk about movies like, I don't know, the John Hughes movies and even up to Top Gun, it's just a much different portrait of, like, American life because this is so urban. And then you see movies sort of start to look towards the suburbs for. For storytelling because it's a lot safer and cleaner and prettier to do that. But this is so, like, it looks like the depression, you know, like when you're.

[Bill Simmons]

Takes you into a world which we love on the rewatch.

[Sean Fennessey]

Those movies have a lot of style to them, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, you got Cruel Summer and all of that stuff. This film is just devastatingly emotional.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You like, it really makes you believe.

[Bill Simmons]

How many times did you tear up?

[Sean Fennessey]

I tear. You know what's funny? Like, I really. I cried, Literally cried. When Rock is yelling at the door and Mick is walking away and he's talking about the fact that he's felt abandoned by him.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I'm right here. What about my prime?

[Sean Fennessey]

And then just the. I hate the character. I've always hated this character. This character is my number one op in film history. Paulie. My number one op in film history.

[Bill Simmons]

We have a lot of Paulie stuff coming.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, but like the Paulie stuff, Paulie is just a more desperate version of Rocky because he can't even box. Yeah, he's Rocky without the boxing. So, like, he can't. So he has nothing to take him out of his situation other than his proximity to this guy. That's pretty desperate.

[Bill Simmons]

We have to go backwards to 76 because I. I just need to. Because I'm old enough to remember this. I can't explain what a giant phenomenon this was. You know, like Jaws in 75, this in 76, Saturday Night Fever in 77, Star wars in 77. Where these movies would hit and then there would be like seven, eight different outcomes from the movie hitting. And in this one, like the music, people started jogging. Like, for real.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. And maybe they were jogging before this movie, but I never remember seeing anyone jog before this movie came out.

[Chris Ryan]

You had a big forest gump, like reinvigorated jogging. But you think, you think Rocky started.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like people always claim Jim Fix, but I always feel like Rocky. The concept of just people training and being motivated to train. I remember, I'm not kidding, I was a little kid being in the living room because I was an only child and I play the Rocky soundtrack and I would just be in the main event boxing Apollo and just running around like, you know, you fake playing. You're like hitting yourself and doing. You're listening to music like this movie was.

[Sean Fennessey]

So you boxed Apollo. You were a Rocky and Apollo.

[Bill Simmons]

I was Rocky.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, you were Rocky.

[Bill Simmons]

I was Rocky. I was like fighting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Which one of your friends.

[Chris Ryan]

Which one of your non white friends?

[Bill Simmons]

By myself. But this is what you did with this movie. Apollo.

[Sean Fennessey]

Come here. Put your face over here.

[Bill Simmons]

This is what you did though. You jogged to this movie. You shadow boxed to it. Yeah. And then the other piece of it was just alone going from I don't never heard of this person before to this is this person's now in my life. And then think about how he's been in our life. I mean, this is. I don't know how many rewatchables we've done with him at this point, but I don't know if there's been a bigger rags to riches actor story than this.

[Chris Ryan]

Also. I Was trying.

[Bill Simmons]

It's Tarantino crossed with acting, almost.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I was trying to think of also any the people who have broken big and then stayed big with. The story of making the movie mirrors the movie itself, you know, like his self belief, his. I believe in, like, I'm betting on myself on this one. And if it means I can't even make the movie at all, I'm not gonna compromise. And to actually catapult yourself into this kind of level of fame is astonishing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, he had to. First of all, everyone had to deliver to such a ridiculous level. The script is perfect even.

[Bill Simmons]

It's really well written and it's hilarious that Sly Stallone wrote it because we, you know, it's really cool reading William Goldman.

[Chris Ryan]

And he talks a lot about, like, the locker scene and all the different things. You learn about Rocky from just him hitting the locker to open it up.

[Bill Simmons]

One of my favorite script, like, just little touches is when they watch the interview on TV and they're kind of making fun of him in the interview when he's. After he takes the fight and he's like, yeah, it doesn't bother me. And then he walks away. And Adrian's kind of watching him leave. He's like, remember when I said this stuff didn't bother me?

[Sean Fennessey]

It did. It did.

[Bill Simmons]

And then he just walks up like, oh, man, this fucking guy. Can he buy rock? Can't he buy a break? You know, we just buy this guy a break.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is there a time. This is going to sound really whatever, but is there a time in a movie before this to where the old sports trope of watching the guy talk about, like, Apollo's on tv.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And like, Apollo's on tv and you're. The first time you see, like, you see them talking about it. You see them talking about the fight and you're watching them on tv. They do that in sports movies, like, all the time now?

[Bill Simmons]

No, this is completely invented. This is why this is such an influential movie. We could talk about a million different things. I'll say this. I think until Rod Tidwell, I think Apollo was the best kind of side sports movie character ever.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, if you actually watch all the Apollo scenes carefully in this movie, he's a amazing character. He's like a businessman. The way he talks. He's charismatic. He's doing partly Ali, but he's also. I don't think Ali was like a businessman like this. Like, he's. He's a thinker. Like, he's the one who figures out what to do in that fight. And. And you just get a complete feel for him. You want to spend more time with him. And I have him in the finals against Rod Tidwell.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's an interesting thing that he is the character that is in this movie utilizing race and capitalism, all of that stuff against the Everyman, the Italian Stallion. Right. It's almost. It takes that, you know, there's a specific.

[Bill Simmons]

He knows. He knows what's going to sell. And it's like he's got to fight.

[Chris Ryan]

A white guy for great juxtaposition too, because the three or four of the main characters this movie are like almost non verbal. They're like barely articulate.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

No, no, you're right. I mean, that was. That was like a nice way to put it. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, I mean, Adrian, Paulie and Rocky are kind of like either drunk, shy to the point of petrification, or like brain dead.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Adrian's basically Raymond Babbitt for the first 40 minutes of this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Until. Until he pulls the glasses off.

[Bill Simmons]

She's like playing with the Cincinnati Reds baseball cards.

[Sean Fennessey]

He. He awoken something in her.

[Chris Ryan]

But then. But so you basically, like, when Apollo is narrating all this stuff of like, I don't want Bob justice or whoever the fuck is going to fight, like, that's the only thing that kind of keeps this movie going for a while. Because otherwise it's just people wandering around in the dark, you know, like, it's.

[Bill Simmons]

The promoter is great too. Like, just every Jurgens moment is great. But there's that scene when they're just beating the shit out of each other in the end. And it just cuts to him. He's just sitting there with like his fucking cigar, just like, yeah, box office.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then even when Apollo is going through and he clearly lost the fight, you could watch the movie 15 times in a row. And Apollo lost. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

But he definitely lost the first two rounds.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So I guess 14 might have been a 10, 8.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it's like there's a statement that the movie is making about how cynical Apollo was about picking rock and how.

[Chris Ryan]

He doesn't train hard enough and everything.

[Sean Fennessey]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

That was one of the big scenes when the meat locker. The meat whenever. That scene when Duke's watching it, it's.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, yo, man, you can hear them.

[Bill Simmons]

This guy means business. And Pa was like, yeah, yeah. I mean business too. And he's just like reading the wall. I love Apollo is so great.

[Sean Fennessey]

But that character, in a way, that's a revolutionary character, no question. Particularly as a black man. Right there. To be the guy that. He's the one that's talking specifically about America and the American dream and everything that America.

[Chris Ryan]

And he's conducting a little bit of a symphony. He was like, well, it's Philly. They're gonna go for this Italian guy, Columbus, the bicentennial.

[Bill Simmons]

He's orchestrating a story six years after they wouldn't let Ali fight.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And this is like, clearly like it's an Ali based character. And the reason Stallone came up with the idea for the movie is he's watching webner Ollie in 75, which was the real life version of this. Webner ends up suing him and undisclosed settlement. Yeah, but that's part of the lore of the movie, is Stallone watched that fight. Wepner was like this. You know, there's been documentaries, moves about him, but he's banged up face. He's getting killed by ali. But last 15 rounds. Stallone, so inspired, pumps out the movie in three and a half days.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I ask a question about going back to what you guys were talking about with Good Will Hunting? Be in the same mode of a movie where the guys just went, fuck it, we're gonna make our own movie. And explodes.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The only difference though is those got around for a while, but those guys had been in movies affecting Damon. Like, they hadn't had their A list break, but they had been in stuff like Affect was in Chasing Amy the year before and Damon was in a bunch of stuff. I think he had gotten. He'd gotten the Rainmaker by then. He was in School times.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, the Rainmaker hits almost.

[Bill Simmons]

Stallone was imper. That was it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think also. I mean, I don't remember. I'd have to go back and look. But like, I don't know that Damon and Affleck would have said no if they were like, we're gonna make this script, but like these two giant movie stars are gonna be. And you guys get paid for the script. Like, I think they may have been like, hey, we're keeping it moving. And we're. I. I don't know. It was like Stallone was basically like this, writing it and starring in it, or it's not getting me.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, there was a piece that I didn't know about how he sold it to ABC with Henry Winkler, because they worked together. And then ABC was basically like, we're changing everything. Thanks for the script. Here's some money. And he convinced Winkler to give it back to him.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, no. And it crucially, it's like Winkler has to go back to abc, ask for the script back. They're like, no, thanks.

[Bill Simmons]

But he's the father.

[Chris Ryan]

He's like, I'm Fonzie. Like, so if you don't want to give me the Happy Days, you'll give it back or you sell it back to me at cost.

[Bill Simmons]

And then it's this two year dance or one year dance, however long it was of people wanting to buy the script. But put a famous actor con or whatever. I got to say, it's an amazing. In the bet on your. If there was the bet on yourself book Stallone betting on himself is a chapter. Yeah, I'll take way less money. I have to star in it. I want to be the writer and star.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is there a version of Stallone's career where he is primarily a writer, that he's more of a filmmaker actor?

[Bill Simmons]

If he just sells too charismatic.

[Chris Ryan]

But he is suggested or like, when he talks about it, like, I think that he has suggested that that's like a career he would have happily had. You know, like that he really wanted to be a filmmaker. And he thinks of himself as an artist more than like, you know, in some ways, like, Rocky is golden handcuff cuffs. Right. He's returned to this franchise over the decades so many times.

[Sean Fennessey]

But Rambo too. Rambo, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I wonder if he's like, I would have liked to have made more movies that are like on the Waterfront or whatever, you know, I mean.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he definitely, yeah, he didn't write First Blood. He, you know, Rocky, the moment this comes out, it's like, all right, let's make Rocky 2. Come on, guys, what are we waiting for? And then that comes out. And then he's trying. He, you know, he's in Nighthawks, he's in Victory. But then he has that second run with Rocky III in First Blood, same year. And then that's it. He has one of the best, probably six year a list movie star runs ever. All seemed inconceivable. If you watch Rocky 1, he's got to lose weight. He's got to look more leading man. It was tough to separate Rocky from Stallone. You know, like, he's in Nighthawks, he grew a beard.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's like, all right, I'm street cop Stallone. But. And then he's in Victory, loses a ton of weight and he's the goalie. And it's like, all right, it's still Rocky. It really took him until, I would say 82, 83 to be Stallone.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And then Obviously, he spends most of his career, like, in and out of that Persona.

[Bill Simmons]

Really.

[Chris Ryan]

Until Copland. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, we've done another physical transformation there. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, we've done. This is our 11th Stallone Rewatchable. So he's moved into the top five.

[Sean Fennessey]

What all have you guys done?

[Bill Simmons]

He's tied. I mean, we've done a bunch of them.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought you might crash into Hackman at the last second here.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'm waiting for the results. Cruz, 15. De Niro, Pacino, 13. Denzel and Stallone, 11. That's our top five. Awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

How many more Stallones are still sitting? Are you scouting? Are you at the combine looking at Stallone?

[Bill Simmons]

There's a couple good ones left.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We haven't done Lockup. We haven't done Daylight Lock up. You Daylight fan.

[Sean Fennessey]

I like Daylight.

[Bill Simmons]

Stallone has to see Cliffhanger. We did Cliffhanger. I was ready to do it again, though.

[Sean Fennessey]

But see, the stallones, I mean, Rambo.

[Bill Simmons]

2, we haven't done.

[Sean Fennessey]

So you're never going to do Cobra, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Murdoch did Cobra.

[Sean Fennessey]

Already did Cobra.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, fuck yeah. Love Cobra.

[Sean Fennessey]

Have you done Tango and Cash?

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, shit. Well, you got Tango and Cash is one of my favorite movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we can read Tango.

[Sean Fennessey]

Favorite movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's. We'll take a break, come back a little more to talk about this movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of.

[Bill Simmons]

The number one checkout on the planet.

[Sean Fennessey]

Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going Cha Ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today.

[Bill Simmons]

Just quickly on the ultimate sports movie recipe. Surprise. Out of nowhere Star Killer supporting parts. So we mentioned Apollo Creed, but you also have Mickey. You have Paulie, the least likable character probably of the 1970s, other than maybe Travis Bickle. And then Adrian. And then you have Gotso, the loan shark guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

And you have Gotso's driver, the funniest character probably of the 1970s. And then you have Juergens.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And Duke, who's not named in Rocky 1 and eventually becomes Duke. Paula was like a son to me. Yeah, I raised him. When he died, a part of me died too.

[Sean Fennessey]

Duke has some all time heaters.

[Bill Simmons]

Why wasn't Duke?

[Sean Fennessey]

Duke has some Duke.

[Bill Simmons]

Duke's the best.

[Sean Fennessey]

The guy's all wrong for us. Like Duke. Like Duke has some.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't like southpaws.

[Sean Fennessey]

Duke has some all time heaters. When you just let Duke cook, man.

[Bill Simmons]

So we got the killer supporting parts. We got the perfect underdog story. Great music, great all time sports movie music. Multiple chill scenes. I always call them chill scenes. When you're watching like the Gonna Fly now and he starts racing the boat and you're like. And then the great ending. This is the recipe. This is the recipe that was then copied for 48 years.

[Chris Ryan]

When you were watching this, I know you're a kid, so maybe you just assume. But like, did you. Were you watching this being like. And of course, like Rocky's got. Got a win at the end, right? Like, oh, yeah. The sports movie like idea of like.

[Bill Simmons]

This was Bad News Bears too. Those are the two movies that year that flipped. Oh, you think they're gonna win at the end? Watch this. And then they don't win.

[Sean Fennessey]

Something else about the movie, it, to me, it establishes the sports movie to where a victory for our main character is this transformational victory for all of our supporting characters too. Like, everybody learns a lesson along with rock.

[Bill Simmons]

Paulie got $3,000.

[Sean Fennessey]

Paulie like rock pulls everybody, Mickey, everyone. Like by the time you get to like Cinderella man, you realize that he's not just fighting for him, he's fighting for Giamatti. He's fighting for like everyone kind of gets pulled out of their thing by what this guy does.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, some other stuff, other pieces of this big picture. The we mentioned the Stallone breakout movie. Adrian is not a wet blanket in this movie. But we get to Rocky 4 and it's full bloom. Like, doesn't even go to Russia with him. I think for the most part. Really great sports movie girlfriend in this one, like just additive supportive, wants him to win. Loves him so much she can't go out there to watch the fight. Doesn't want to see him get. But then can't resist. Has to come out a different time.

[Chris Ryan]

In the American economy when a woman could make a living working in an exotic fish store in Philadelphia or in Kensington.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, never more than one customer in there. The heart of downtown Philly.

[Chris Ryan]

$6 and they just getting over $6. Yeah, that's okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Did those caviar eggs sell?

[Chris Ryan]

We're providing a big service to the community.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we're right across the scummy gym in a porn theater. I don't know where everyone is today.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, Adrian, you know, the guy singing.

[Chris Ryan]

Doo wop can use the toilet. So, you know, we play our part.

[Sean Fennessey]

All white doo wop group.

[Chris Ryan]

We're gonna get to it.

[Bill Simmons]

Stallone's. Stallone's bro.

[Sean Fennessey]

All my doo wop group loved it.

[Bill Simmons]

Your Mickey thoughts?

[Sean Fennessey]

So, you know, haven't been around the boxing gym a lot. Everybody in there is essentially Mickey. Like, you know, they have their favorites. They do the whole. You're not putting enough into your boxing career. When I was a kid, I didn't like Mickey. I thought that Mickey sucked. As I got older, something changed. And I'll tell you what it is. When you get older, the first thing you lose patience for is people squandering their talent and their ability. That's the first thing that goes. I didn't know why people used to do that to me. Like when I was a kid I just be like, look how big Van is. And one of my uncles would be like, yeah, he ain't gonna do nothing with it. I'd be like, God damn, I'm eating my cereal. What the fuck is wrong with you? But like now when I look at Mickey and I go, he was so disappointed in Rocky because he saw what Rocky could have been and that's why he was treating him like shit. So that's a character that you kind of age with. Because at first when I first saw the movie, I was like, well, I had seen the old one. That Rocky loves Mickey so much. I was like, why? He's kind of an asshole.

[Bill Simmons]

For the first hard time he's coming into the gym smoking a lung dart. Hey, where's my locker? Dessert ashtray.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mick gives his locker away to the dipper. Continuously tells him how shitty he is and then becomes kind of grifter when the 150000 deal comes by now it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Such an important season.

[Chris Ryan]

It's also like shows making this like incredibly, I mean maybe not self consciously vulnerable way where he's like, look at, look at the newspaper clipping of me. And you're just like, oh, this is a guy who has newspaper clippings about himself like stuffed into his pockets. Like he's, he's kind of pathetic.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I got hot but I ain't got no locker. Do I make? Yeah, tough one. That makes sense.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's like I'm 75 years old. Like it never happened for me. I just want to be around anyone who still has the chance that it could happen for them.

[Bill Simmons]

So this movie won three Oscars best picture director and editing. 10 nominations. First sports film ever to win best picture. This was kind of an amazing Oscars year. Let's talk about beats all the President's Men Network. Taxi Driver bound for Glory. John Avildon wins for best Director. He beats Alan Jeff for All the President's. Then Ingmar Bergman. Sydney Lumet for network and Seven Beauties. And then Stallone loses to Peter Finch and network. Dairo loses as Travis Bickle and William Holden.

[Chris Ryan]

I would make the argument that I think Holden's better network than Peter Finch. But aside from that, I.

[Bill Simmons]

That's probably a dinero year if we're redoing that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Talia Shire. Not nominated, but we do have Burgess Meredith and Burt Young both nominated. But Jason Robards wins for all the President's Men. All right, you're relitigating this. Who wins in 76?

[Chris Ryan]

So for best picture, definitely, I think all the President's Men should have won best Picture. Now you can make the argument the Taxi Driver cinematically is more importantly, like in movie history. But I just think all the President's Men is a perfect Oscar. Best Picture movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I would go all the. Well, network's really great though.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. What's really it.

[Bill Simmons]

I would go all the President's Been for movie. And I would go Scorsese for best Director.

[Chris Ryan]

But the important part here is it's not Rocky.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not Rocky, but I think that speaks to how unique the movie was. And part of what made people respond to it was they just never seen anything like this and it really affected them.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Oscars fall for phenomena a lot. And if the movie was a phenomenon that you say it was, they get swept up in that. It's a very relatable crash.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jesus.

[Bill Simmons]

$1.1 million budget made 225 million. Spawned five sequels and three Creed movies. So eight sequels overall.

[Chris Ryan]

I wonder how that money got chopped up.

[Bill Simmons]

1.1 made 225. But it's got to be so much more than 225. Factor in the sequels. I mean, this has to be a multi billion dollar franchise, right? Like 4. $4 billion.

[Chris Ryan]

Quantify, like the economic impact that had on Philadelphia. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I. They don't have points on that, but like, it's crazy how this is like a. In a lot of ways a world changing movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Like video games, cartoons. It creates an American mythology. Like, Rocky is not a movie character. He's like, more akin to like, I don't know, Paul Bunyan.

[Chris Ryan]

You refer to Rocky as like, oh, it's like a Rocky story. This guy's coming out of nowhere. I mean, it's. We still do it today.

[Bill Simmons]

You could say Rocky, Jaws Saturday Night Fever and the Godfathers just, like, created this new form of pop culture, at least a piece of.

[Chris Ryan]

But the crazy part about it is when you watch it, you would never think that, like, when you watch the first 45 minutes of Rocky, you're like, wow, I'm watching a really, really sad character.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. This is like an indie movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Roger Ebert. Our guy, four stars last week for Crash, four stars this week for Rocky. A description of it would sound like a cliche from beginning to end, but Rocky isn't about a story. It's about a hero. And it's inhabited with supreme confidence by a star. His name is Sylvester Stallone. Just raves and raves and raves. Rog. Love story. What's the exact perfect age to see this movie? What do you guys think?

[Chris Ryan]

13.

[Bill Simmons]

At 13, do you need to be.

[Chris Ryan]

In puberty and care about girls a little bit or they care about romantic relationship a little bit? Because otherwise you're gonna be really bored for the first two turns of this.

[Sean Fennessey]

I said 13 in 1993. But, like, now at this particular time, and I think you'd have to be like, 26 or 27.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I think that the kids that watch this, that would watch the movie now, a lot of them, they're not gonna stick it out with Rocky through the early parts.

[Bill Simmons]

I know my kids didn't. My kids wanted to watch Rocky III and Rocky IV. This was too slow. First 45. Most rewatchable scenes I gotta give. I gotta start. I have a bunch. I have probably too many. But I love the beginning with the Spider Rico fight. Pre credits. The headbutt gets me. I like the. The smoke after the fight when Spider Rico is just lying in the. On the bed. You got lucky. And it goes right into. I like when they get paid. Spider gets $17.20, Rocky gets $40.

[Chris Ryan]

I love the 55 cents taxes out on these guys. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then that's going into the government. And then he walks out and we go in to take it back with our diverse doo wop group.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we're into the opening credits.

[Chris Ryan]

Just to back up a second. If you don't get the theme song and the title sequence and the fight in the beginning of this movie, I think a lot of people would be like, what the fuck am I watching? Because it gives you the sense if you just start with this guy, like, wandering through the night. Philadelphia. Smokey.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, I think people would be like, yo, I thought this was a sports movie, you know, but this gives you. Hey, Just so you know, at some point, dan, dan da da da da is coming and this guy can fight, right? And so you see.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think you could take Spider Rico?

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I don't know. I'm pretty good in the ring, though. Couple rounds, maybe. I'll tell you one thing about that scene, though. That is one of the worst, in terms of, like, aesthetically, boxing movie scenes ever. And it's interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

Because of the boxing or because of.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, it just. There's this portrayal of the sport. When I say worse, I mean the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Unflattering.

[Sean Fennessey]

Boxing. Unflattering is what I meant to say. This portrayal of the sport that these guys are in there just killing themselves for nothing. It's completely dirty. It's corrupt. It's just the worst part.

[Bill Simmons]

The fans are awful.

[Sean Fennessey]

Fans are awful. The whole deal. And the first thing Rocky says is, when can I fight again? Like, there's something that he's putting himself through. And you go. And the first thing you go is like, why? And that question is answered at the end of the movie. The end of the movie. The movie takes the entire movie to answer the question of why would someone put themselves through what Rocky's going through in the first scene? It's because you might. You could possibly. Mick. Everyone is chasing that. Walking out there at the end. And so that kind of pays it off. But when I watched that scene first, like, it's disgusting and terrible and exploitive in the whole night.

[Chris Ryan]

And I was thinking about how they. You know, in Creed, which very closely follows some of the structures of Rocky. Like, the first fight is in Tijuana, and it's like, no Creed can fight. Like, Creed's knocking this dude out. Like. And it's not like, oh, like this. Why is this guy fighting?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, but he's the guy who already knows that it's over. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm combining three small scenes together because they're all in a row. Apollo breaking out his bicentennial plan. Apollo. I like it. It's very American. No Juergens. It's very smart. Right into Gato's driver. Hey, Rock, I heard she's retarded. Take her to the zoo. I hear retards like the zoo. I'm sorry to say, the R word's very nice. Yeah, it's. So the driver is, like, the worst human being probably ever. And every time he pops up, I'm.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, the driver 75 thing in this movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

I like when Rock has had enough of it. He just goes after him.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I'm right here.

[Bill Simmons]

This guy just. Why does he hate Rocky so much? What did Rocky do?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, Rocky's not a very good collector. Rocky's letting a lot of guys off. Not breaking enough thumbs.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, then we get right from there back to the office with Apollo going, this is what I'm looking for. The Italian Stallion, his softpaw. I'm like, you mess around with softpaws. I like that whole section. Jurgen's making Rocky the offer great. Into the press conference. I fight in clubs. I'm really a ham and egger. We stopped using the phrase ham and egger.

[Chris Ryan]

Him asking the secretary for the business card back so that he can keep it as, like, a keepsake.

[Bill Simmons]

There's so many good, subtle touches like that. You're right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

This guy. This guy thinks this is, like, the only proxy. Like, the closest he's ever going to get to success is being in this office. So he wants to keep everything he gets from it.

[Bill Simmons]

He thinks he'd be a sparring partner.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's funny. This movie is the definition of a rewatchable because we know that we're looking at Rocky Balboa.

[Chris Ryan]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

He doesn't know that he's Rocky Balboa.

[Bill Simmons]

But we know it's like a superhero movie. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, we know that we're looking at Rocky Balboa. So the entire.

[Bill Simmons]

We don't know he's going to end.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Cold War, the whole deal. He's going to go on to become. He's already got, like, 21 losses, but he's going to end up. He's going to go on to become one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. The whole. Now, like, we know we're looking at him.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky, do you believe America is the land of opportunity? I said this to CR in 2011.

[Chris Ryan]

I did.

[Bill Simmons]

I was trying to get him to come to Grandland. It's like, cr. Do you believe I also love. I just want to say hi to my girlfriend. Yo, Adrian. And then this is when the. You know, they said this stuff on TV didn't bother me none. It did. Mickey trying to convince Rocky to hire him. We mentioned. Yeah, of course, I never had no management.

[Chris Ryan]

That's such a. I got all this knowledge. I got it up here, and I.

[Bill Simmons]

Want to give it to you. I want to give you this knowledge. I want to take care of you.

[Chris Ryan]

I want to make sure that all.

[Bill Simmons]

This that happened to me doesn't happen to you. You know what I mean?

[Sean Fennessey]

If the fight said, listen to me.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to be your manager, you following that, do you?

[Chris Ryan]

The monologue.

[Bill Simmons]

I love the door opening, opening and closing. Because he thinks Mickey left, but he didn't. Then he slams the door again. Then he opens and he just starts screaming incoherently, which is some of my favorite Stallone.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You talk about pride.

[Sean Fennessey]

What about my pride, Nick?

[Bill Simmons]

What about my pride? And then I like the world. Wordless reconciliation from far away. Just some good filmmaking.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Possible great shot, Gordo. What'd you have for great shot Gordo?

[Chris Ryan]

Running up there, museum steps, steady cam.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It's actually great shot Garrett because he's the Steadicam inventor.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's there.

[Bill Simmons]

Great shot, Garrett.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky's TV interview in the meat freezer, which also gets the Big Kahuna Burger award for best use of food and drink. You could even argue might have to replace the Big Kahuna Burger.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'll be honest with you. There's another candidate though.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you got?

[Sean Fennessey]

The turkey.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's a great one. Yeah, you're right.

[Sean Fennessey]

The turkey. Turkey's a tough one, cuz.

[Bill Simmons]

Paul keeps like the one gross. And then he's like touching people with the grease.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's wielding the turkey leg as a scepter as he's thrown her Thanksgiving turkey. I don't know. What a bastard.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's like the third worst thing he did in the movie. I like when they. When they're doing the TV interview and. And they're about to film it and the guy's like, hey, the me guy sticking his head in, doing that. Duke's watching. Yeah, I'm in business.

[Chris Ryan]

He hears him. He hears the punches, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Because Duke's got his back to the tv. And then he' like turns around slowly.

[Bill Simmons]

What's going on here?

[Chris Ryan]

Here's the punches.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think this would if they had social media in 1976? How many views is this getting him? Hitting opponent, punching meat in a meat locker. I feel like this is like 10 million crazy. 10 million views, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

I tell you what, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Sending that to you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you see this guy was fighting Apollo?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know, bro. This dude Apollo ready for this guy, bro.

[Chris Ryan]

Ariel's like, I heard that wasn't real me.

[Bill Simmons]

All of a sudden this goes into the gonna fly now training sequence, which I forgot. Like, we're like, oh, we're doing this?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

One handed push ups, races the huge boat. Second chance at the stairs, which we set up earlier with that 5am brutal training session.

[Chris Ryan]

The eggs. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Honestly, I think this is one of the best sports movie Scenes of all time.

[Chris Ryan]

Of course it is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It has to be. If you're just arguing about them, this has to be one of the first.

[Chris Ryan]

Ones, the great work scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Unless you want to go Rocky II on me with all the kids.

[Chris Ryan]

Seriously, like, inside of that building, the art is some of the greatest works of art in, like, the history of the world. There's, like, medieval suits of armor. There's, like, tombs from Egypt. There's paintings from Impressionism, Dressed kill ladies glove. And it's just literally like, every day, there is a line of cars and vans waiting to take pictures of the Rocky statue there. It is still, like, this iconic thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

How important is this movie? This is going to sound so stupid. The city has so much history. How important is this movie to the contemporary identity of Philadelphia?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it was big during my childhood. It was huge during my time.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not so much anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

Peaked in the 80s.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't see a lot of dudes being like, man, Rocky's really means a lot to me. But it's like, you have to remember Iverson's 25 years ago now. So it's like, this is a very long time ago.

[Bill Simmons]

They got my trunks wrong. That scene when he goes into the Spectrum doesn't matter, does it? I'm sure you're gonna give us a great show. And then he knows, like, oh, God, I'm gonna fucking get smoked. Goes back, talks to Adrian. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed. And if I can go that distance.

[Sean Fennessey]

You see, and that bell rings and I'm still standing, I want to know for the first time in my life, you see, I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood.

[Bill Simmons]

I love all that stuff. It's like, you got me, Rock. You had me a half hour ago. I didn't need this speech. You got me. I'm splitting the fight up into three scenes. The entire fight entrance. Paulie got three grand. I got the robe, shrewd. The Uncle Sam entrance from Apollo, which is great. The him talking to Sly. And Sly's, like, so stupid in the. In the pre fight, but it's great. Is he talking to me? Yeah, he's talking to you. And then the Joe Frazier cameo is amazing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You hear people chanting like Frazier in the background. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Took me a long time. And then I love the nicknames the Master Disaster. Is that one of the best nicknames ever?

[Sean Fennessey]

Love it. King of Sting.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, all of that stuff. First two rounds of the fight. The first round knockdown is one of the most exciting sports movie moments ever. Oh, my God, I love the bar shot.

[Chris Ryan]

Jumping around in the first round as they're, like, sort of feeling each other out. It's never like, those are. Like. He's actually, like missing. Like, they're not.

[Bill Simmons]

Like.

[Chris Ryan]

That's not bad stunt work or bad.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's just slapping.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Breaks his nose. Duke does, though. He doesn't know it's a damn show. He thinks it's a damn fight.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the end of round two is great.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because it's like, oh, Rocky's not going away. Here we go. We do the montage. 14th round, next scene. I think this is my most rewatchable.

[Chris Ryan]

This is because I cut me. Mick.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I love the. Down, down, stay down. And he's just like. And Adrian comes out. And then Apollo with the shoulder slump is my favorite.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where he's just like, are you kidding me? This guy got up again.

[Sean Fennessey]

You like that?

[Bill Simmons]

And then he comes back with a.

[Sean Fennessey]

And this is just all body shots.

[Bill Simmons]

But they repeat the same shot. It's two punches that they run twice.

[Sean Fennessey]

Reminds me of the. The fight that was on last week where.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Where thing just gets nuked out by body shots.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And you. And that's his thing. He's gonna go to the ribs just like the slabs of me.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Because don't they say Apollo's bleeding internally? Basically. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And he just can't handle it.

[Bill Simmons]

Calls it, Mickey tells that guy. Goes to the body like nothing we've ever seen. Cut me Mick is great, too. And then the ending.

[Chris Ryan]

Cut me Mick is so gross.

[Bill Simmons]

So gross.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is disgusting, y'all.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't see nothing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Gotta open my eyes by.

[Chris Ryan]

Cut me M. I don't want to do it. Cut me. Cut me. Okay, try cut it.

[Bill Simmons]

My God.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cut me. Cut me. Make poo.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't even know that was a thing. It's so great that they bring the cut guy in at like the eighth inning.

[Bill Simmons]

She's got. Hold on, I got my razor blade Here, let me. Let me get that. And then the ending. It seems like he's going to get him. Ain't gonna be no rematch. Don't want one. Where's your hat? Still champion Apollo. I don't know. Best sports movie ending ever. It's in the running during the fight.

[Chris Ryan]

Especially on repeat viewing. I think you can tell that the stadium's empty when they're fighting. Or very empty.

[Bill Simmons]

They weren't counting on blu ray in 2025.

[Chris Ryan]

Some of the ADR, like, sound effects stuff could have been better, but that bell Everybody rushing in the shot of everybody rushing in the music. Him just being like you automatically kind of intuitively know it doesn't matter if he's won or not. It's because he's stuck through the whole fight. He did win.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You earned the champs respect.

[Chris Ryan]

It's just like holy man.

[Bill Simmons]

Paulie finally does something nice. He lets the rope open for Adrian. He doesn't get and throws a turkey at her what he wants.

[Sean Fennessey]

But he leaves the fight with so much more than what he came into the fight with. That even looking at him as battered and bruised as he is, you're like, it was worth it.

[Bill Simmons]

What's your most rewatchable scene, Sierra gonna fly now?

[Chris Ryan]

I think I'd probably go with the training. Yeah. The finally getting up the art museum steps to go to fly now.

[Bill Simmons]

I love the 14th round.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's. I think it's the training. But I do want to just give some love to Rocky and Adrian's first.

[Bill Simmons]

Day at the ice skating rink.

[Sean Fennessey]

The ice skating rink where he's. He just. He just demonstrates so many things. Number one, like, the script really is perfect because Rocky's talent is determination.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what his talent is. His talent is determination. And throughout the whole movie, you just see a determined guy. He's gonna get her on the ice rink, he's gonna tell her the stupid southpaw story. And you can just see them kind of closing in on each other to the whole time to where, you know, he kind of accosts her in his apartment.

[Bill Simmons]

Later on she's telling him about fish food.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I love the fact that the guy keeps yelling eight minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, seven minutes.

[Chris Ryan]

But it's like it gives the date urgency. Like if you can't close here right, you know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Hey.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode of the rewatchables is presented by State Farm. There's a lot to say when buying a new home or car, but only one thing to say when you need help to protect them like a good neighbor. State Farm is there a state Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighborhood. State Farm is there. What's the most 1976 thing about this movie?

[Chris Ryan]

I think white doo wop.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I get it.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe not 19. I mean, I don't. Did we still have such. Such voices back then? I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, do up. Well, color me bad was like really the last moment.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but like they were.

[Sean Fennessey]

Some of them were black.

[Bill Simmons]

I know, but they had a couple white guys.

[Chris Ryan]

Have you ever seen a group of men singing in harmony on a street corner. In real life.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Yeah, well, that's what I had most. 1976 thing. Good natured winos and doo wop singers versus just Fentanyl addicts, which we would have now.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

Now we'd have people with no pants on just wandering in a circle, carry.

[Chris Ryan]

A tune, you know? Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

If they could just sing a little bit, we could. Guy, bro.

[Bill Simmons]

Take it back. Where's my Fentanyl Bill?

[Chris Ryan]

Pulling up with a fur coat, being like, let me hear a tune, fellas.

[Sean Fennessey]

All right.

[Chris Ryan]

And it throws him a quarter.

[Bill Simmons]

It was this era, though. Drunk street characters were always like these benevolent movie characters. Like, he picks up that one guy and brings him in the bar and she's like, let me put you over on the seat.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Have. Have a drink with Eddie. Those days are gone.

[Chris Ryan]

A lot of the stuff that we lionize on this podcast, smokey dive bars, 1970 streets and stuff. This is the real shit in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And it kind of makes me second guess whether I would love to be in a smoke filled bar, the Lucky 7 Tavern, with overhead lighting and three absolutely, like, guys dying of kidney failure, like. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And Polly upset that the mayor is broken. Right, Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thanksgiving, Christmas is the shittiest life. You know how many times in this movie somebody accuses somebody else of stinking? It just stinks.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it stinks in here.

[Sean Fennessey]

My house stinks. All of this desperation wood.

[Bill Simmons]

Stage. The best CR mentioned the Steadicam. This is the third movie ever they use the Steadicam, but the most famous one and Steadicam, I would say, is it's not an MVP of the movie, but it's.

[Chris Ryan]

It's firstly Gary Brown, inventor of the Steadicam. And he basically was like trying to get people interested in the technology. And Rocky winds up becoming more or less the guinea pig for the technology that changes cinema.

[Bill Simmons]

Apparently the run up the stairs was his idea because. To show them how the Steadicam worked. He did a test run with his wife to show him what it would look. Show them what it would look like. And that led to how they did it. Apparently they offered him either money or points in the movie, and he took the money and has some regrets.

[Sean Fennessey]

Poor guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Gotta bet on yourself.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a tough. That was not a good. That's not gonna be in the bet on yourself book. Gary Brown, what stage? The best. The music and the soundtrack. It's still going. You hear that? I mean, how many years have they been playing that in sporting events?

[Chris Ryan]

Start of every fourth quarter In America.

[Bill Simmons]

It feels like I have a bunch. What do you have anything good?

[Chris Ryan]

The actual turtles?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Still alive as of 2021. Which cuff and link? Yeah. Last reference I could find of them, but Stallone kept them.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, wow. Yeah, it's amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

I'd sing with turtles. They don't die if you get a pet turtle that's not like, ah, ten years from now.

[Chris Ryan]

Turtles do smell too, I gotta say.

[Bill Simmons]

Turtles are an L. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You don't like them?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I used to like them.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was back in Louisiana. I see turtles everywhere.

[Chris Ryan]

Would you have them in the house, though?

[Sean Fennessey]

Probably not.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Agnostic on turtles now. No, it's age the best. Well, first of all, just, I. I personally think that just overall, the sports movie obviously has aged the best, but I think that this. It's because of Rocky.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think without the success and the cultural penetration of this movie, I think the sports movie period is just much, much different. Like, this is a successful. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder if somebody would have figured it out.

[Sean Fennessey]

They probably would have, but we don't know. Right. I'm sure they would have. Right. It's just such an important piece of our culture. But, man, does this movie just completely. It's like the Marlon Brando of sports movies. It changes the archetype period.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I was thinking about the other day is how come in sports media we're pretty obsessed with the great teams, the dynasties, the burgeoning dynasties, the Chiefs, the Pats, the like. We're always talking about the Lakers in the NBA or whatever, but in movies we're never interested in the great teams. We're interested in the underdog teams or the underdog player. Like nobody wants to watch.

[Bill Simmons]

True greatness is an interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, you wouldn't watch Moneyball about Brian Cashman, you know, you'd want to watch Moneyball about a guy trying to put together a team with less money than Brian Cashman. Like, we don't ever make movies that are about like, oh, this is the story of the three.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pete, I have a thought. It's probably because when we're watching those dynasties, it's aspirational. And when we're watching the movies, it's inspirational. We're definitely more Rocky than we are the Yankees. Everybody in this movie feels like they're Rocky. If you watch this movie and you felt like Apollo Creed, then you on some different shit. Right. So Rocky, probably.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why we have sports documentaries.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. But you know what I mean, though? It's kind of interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's interesting because one of the best sports books ever was the Game by Ken Dryden, which was about, like, the Montreal Canadiens at the tail end of their dynasty, trying to hold it together. It's fascinating. It's basically what the Last Dance is about, too. It's like, can we stay together one last time? So we've seen it work in documentaries and books, but I've never seen in a movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

But to his point, though, and I've always wondered this, not only do we not get into the underdogs in real life, but we hate them. Like, we. If we are relentlessly critical.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah. Like bad things. If a random wild card baseball team wins, it's kind of like, this is annoying.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, we don't win, it negates the regular season. Kind of don't like them.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, you know, a team's bad. They suck. I hate them. They're disgusting and all of that. I'm like, but they're just not having a good season, you know, so it's just different.

[Bill Simmons]

We're hypocrites. More would say it's the best race in boxing. I didn't know when this was going to come up.

[Chris Ryan]

You want me to take this one?

[Sean Fennessey]

It's the same space. Boxing is legitimately the only place where it's still completely acceptable to be. Totally tribal.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, some people would say that there are other places where it happens, but in boxing, you go to a place like the black guy versus Mexican guy. All the brothers rooting for the black guy. All my Latino brothers and sisters are rooting for the Mexican guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Or the English guys fighting all the English fighters.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it's just totally. It's just. It's totally okay.

[Bill Simmons]

It's totally okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Why are you being down?

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, I'm not beaten down. No. It's like this is just a weird era for sports movies because it's the 1.0 era, but most of them are like, you know, it's like Hoosiers. It's Rocky. It's a lot of our white hero trying to beat whoever the black guy was in front of him or the black team.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then it eventually shifts. But I, you know, I just think that in this case, it's clearly an Ali thing, and it feels like less of a black, white thing, but after the fact, it feels black white.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's.

[Bill Simmons]

I really think this is an Ali thing. What he had to say is, Stallone is like, what if I fought Ali? And that's the premise of the movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, no. Stallone doesn't. I don't think Stallone. I don't think the movie is conceived from the lens of race almost at.

[Bill Simmons]

All, but I think the perception after the fact was that it was. This is why it became so popular. This is why they had to have a sequel so he'd win.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not saying it's right. I think that was the way.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's no way to read it other than that at that time. But then if you kind of realize how obsessive Sylvester Stallone is about boxing, like, legitimately. Roy Jones Jr. Was supposed to be in Rocky Balboa. He went out and laid an egg in a ring. Stallone removed him from the movie and put Antonio Tarver in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

It was really good.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right. And so, like, when you. Obviously, the movie has racial undertones. Overtones, the entire thing. But all of the race in the film comes from the black heavyweight champion.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, he is the one. And maybe that's intentionally.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's also explicitly discussed how manipulating people's racial biases will lead to a bigger payday, lead to a bigger audience. Right. Like, yeah, let's get this guy because of this city, because of this time. And, like, here's the story we're gonna tell about him.

[Bill Simmons]

I think this movie is clean on the race front from stallone, sands. Rocky 3 becomes a different story.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean. Yeah. You know, might not be that clean. The movie itself is, but. But also, like, even small things, like Rocky's locker gets given to Dipper.

[Chris Ryan]

Dipper.

[Sean Fennessey]

Dipper. Younger.

[Bill Simmons]

Yo, Rock, I dig your locker.

[Sean Fennessey]

I dig your locker.

[Chris Ryan]

Me on skid row.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Is that the most boxing gym moment ever? The guy taunting Rock from the ring, that he digs his locker just out of nowhere? Yeah, it's a pretty good one.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is a pretty good one.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you ever have moments in the gym where everybody stops training at once because something has happened in the gym? Yeah, that. Cause like, when Mick and Rock are yelling at each other and everybody just stops.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, when you're in the gym with that much testosterone, that normally happens because two people have taken something that happened inside of the ring, like outside of the ring.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know what I mean? And so, like. Cause the boxing gym is a pretty chill place. It's like, very chill. But once again, the tribalism still exists in there. I have said stuff in the boxing gym that I wouldn't say anywhere else. Like, Phil goes. I remember one time, Phil goes. I walk in the gym, Phil goes, hey, man, got somebody for you to Work with. And I go, I'm not sparring any more Mexicans. I just. I just remember. And I said. And just like. And everybody's laughing. I'm like, I'm in here for, you know, fitness. I'm not trying to fight somebody that's fighting for the honor of their family. So, you know, it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Letting you finish.

[Chris Ryan]

Bill's making a playlist of his favorite doo wop.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, talking about this, looking at my outline.

[Sean Fennessey]

Very determined fighters is all I'm saying.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that was like that. That card we were watching the other day when it was the guy. Sergio Mora. Yeah, he's from Ghana. Those guys are warriors. We were texting about it, talking about it. See?

[Sean Fennessey]

But it's boxing.

[Bill Simmons]

So every time he said it, there was just dead silence from his partners. And then he would just double back on it. This is what I was telling you about Ghana. Borrow. What stage the best. The 5am this is the first day I'm going to start my training. And it just being the most miserable thing ever, I think is perfect in this. It's like, I'm going to start. Here's my alarm. I'm going to have some eggs, do a little run, maybe run the steps. And it's just like, by the end of it, you're holding your side, you're coughing up five cigarettes, and it's just super depressing. I loved how they did it and then brought it back. I think it's really smart. Can we talk about Angry Mickey who has quotes like, yeah, I said that.

[Chris Ryan]

Before, you dumb dago.

[Bill Simmons]

Then he goes, yeah, I know, woman. We could leg guys from Ghana. He does that rock's like, I know, woman. We can legs. And he goes, we'll let her train you. You're gonna eat lightning and you're gonna crap thunder. I love his, like, just Burgess. So I knew Burgess Meredith as the Penguin in the Batman series because I used to love that series. Once upon a Time. Van see. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You used to be one of those.

[Bill Simmons]

I love the Batman series. Burgess Meredith. And then we're like, the Penguin's gonna be mixed trainer anyway.

[Sean Fennessey]

Twilight Zone.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, he's the one with the glasses.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

More would say is the best. The meat freezer is just an amazing. Whoever thought of that? Give them a gold star. 1970s Philly is fun.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, you could get into some trouble out there. Seemed really. It's, it's, it's, it's like. It's like when Philly was really in a lot of, like, economic despair. So.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Well, I don't think New York and Boston were doing any better. Yeah, I think. I think that 70s were rough.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So it's mostly Kensington, kind of like Port Richmond. Shot. Shot there. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You put my stuff on skid row. It's like that little they call when you lose your locker. You go to skid row in the boxing gym. I thought that was good. Buckus, Stallone's real dog that stallone sold for $50 because he was so broke when he was writing this movie. He sold in real life. Then got it back after he sold the script.

[Chris Ryan]

That's nice.

[Bill Simmons]

And then brings Buckus in there.

[Chris Ryan]

He has a lot of breaks here. Stallone getting his script back, getting his dog back.

[Bill Simmons]

Giving Buckus the Brandy Booth award. Best performance by a pet. Multiple great scene. My butt Kiss Wood stage the best. The Rocky marathons that eventually get on tv once we got to three or four. And they would just run them all in a row. Although I never understood why they would run all of Rocky 1, start Rocky 2 at the end of Rocky 1 again, just. You kind of mean go right into the start of Rocket Tour. It's like.

[Sean Fennessey]

The golf father. They'll just put the blow it out together. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Another would stage the best. Any scenario where a boxer, UFC fighter, tennis player or golfer is an out of nowhere story. And you just think of Rocky immediately.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Especially like with the combat sports. You think of that last thing. Talia Shire as Adrian. Three best picture movies in five years. Godfather one, Godfather two and Rocky.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

What a run. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like a Scottie Pippen kind of 90s bulls run by her.

[Chris Ryan]

She's great in this.

[Bill Simmons]

She's really good in this.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to like nitpick it, but I can't. I think she's good and it's different than Connie Corleone. Feel like she's a different character. Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Connie probably has. Well, I mean, come on. I kill you, you kill her like your father. What an intense scene.

[Chris Ryan]

I was watching Godfather the other day. The amount of times somebody's like, you think I'm gonna make my godson an orphan. And it's just like I am.

[Sean Fennessey]

And they just kill. Like they just a straight lie. Like a whole family of liars.

[Bill Simmons]

I like at the end when she's a new Godfather one, when she's mad at Michael, spitting on him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She's like, I know you did him. And then Michael's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Carlos in Vegas, he didn't call. What's going on.

[Sean Fennessey]

You can ask me about my business this one time.

[Chris Ryan]

One time.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you do it? No.

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

Why do I close right on her?

[Bill Simmons]

The only other Wood stage. The best I had, other than Gozzo's driver and the Steadicam, was Go's driver is just a comedic genius. Every. He's just on the screen and you're like, oh, my God, this guy. John Avildson, the director, said the original ending Apollo was carried out by the crowd, and so was Rocky. And he pulled Adrian up on the. On his shoulders, and they had the happiest night of their life. And that was going to be done. And they couldn't pull it off. So then they did this second ending when he walks down the aisle and sees Adrian because he lost. And they hold hands and they walk into the back. And it didn't work. And they decided to reshoot it with the bill Connie music and came up with the third version of the ending. And Avil says now that that saved the movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, the movie. The ending would have sucked. It would have been a downer.

[Chris Ryan]

It's so cool that you don't really leave the ring. Like, I don't think we wanted to see, like, really good reissue.

[Sean Fennessey]

She legitimately comes into his world.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

By the way, about her performance, I think she actually grounds the movie with her performance.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, she's good.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think at the beginning of the movie, she's kind of the only person. Because even, I mean, Rock is a dude, but he's very over the top kind of as well, you know, like. But I think, like, her subtlety and vulnerability kind of.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And she's also the person who's just like, look around me. Like, this sucks so much. I have to make myself small so that this doesn't.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Kill me. Like, you know, she's just like, I don't want to, like, see it. I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to, like, talk about it.

[Bill Simmons]

One of my hot takes about this movie is I don't think Paulie was a very good brother. It was one of my takeaways.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if you guys noticed that some of the stuff he did talk about it wasn't. It's coming.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Great shot. Go to award. We said the 5am training ending the first time with the wide shot of Philly.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness Award. Best needle drop. Could you change this to Gonna find out.

[Chris Ryan]

I was. I had Reflections, which is the one that samples cool in the gang which was later used by Fresh Prince, Summertime. So it's just like.

[Bill Simmons]

I like that, too.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's a. There's a. There's a record that plays at the end of the movie that was sampled by somebody else in a very popular song that I loved in the 90s.

[Bill Simmons]

What song?

[Chris Ryan]

Song's called Victory by Notorious B.I.G.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

@ the. Be at the beginning, somebody raps on the song.

[Bill Simmons]

But, yeah, somebody who might be in a lot of trouble these days.

[Sean Fennessey]

When I hear the beginning of it, I just think immediately of that record. And I. And I. And I. And I started doing it almost reflectively. I'm like, yo, the sun don't shine forever, but as long as this. And then I was like, oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Whoa.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Whoa. It's tough. The Chess, Rockwell and Brock Landers award for best character name.

[Sean Fennessey]

Easy.

[Chris Ryan]

Rocky and Apollo.

[Bill Simmons]

It's got to be Apollo Creed.

[Sean Fennessey]

Apollo Creek single best fictional name. It's up there with. It's literally, to me, up there with Darth Vader.

[Chris Ryan]

It's also cool because he talks about names throughout the movie. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I gotta say, don't sleep on Spider Rico. I really did enjoy him as well. All right, Van, you're up with the Flex category. Did you have a flex category you picked?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. The Paulie award for asshole of the.

[Bill Simmons]

Film goes to Paulie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Ghost of Paulie.

[Bill Simmons]

Dudes, this need to be a new award.

[Chris Ryan]

This is also the weak link of the movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

The whole nine.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I had him coming up. I had him coming up. In what stages of worst?

[Sean Fennessey]

There are very few characters that are pure asshole. Just all asshole. And it gets worse because we now know that at the end, after Rocky gets his fucking face beat in for 15 years, building a fortune. What is the reason that Rocky loses all of his money?

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky V never happened.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't care. He loses all of his money and has to open up a small Italian restaurant.

[Chris Ryan]

Paulie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because Paulie gives power of attorney to some crazy person. And then Rocky gets all of his money taken. Yeah, Paulie's terrible. He is.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought he had some decent moments in Rocky iv, just not to defend Paulie. But, you know, it's just him and Duke in Russia. There's no other choice.

[Sean Fennessey]

That was like.

[Bill Simmons]

No, just. There was a couple. Rocky IV is probably the best version of Paulie. But Rocky one, Paulie is one of the worst human beings in a movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's a pimp. He literally pimps his sister out.

[Chris Ryan]

He says, I go out and get your meat every morning. You forgot that. Then Even give you my sister too. You're such a loser. I didn't get married because of you. You can't live by yourself. I put you two together and you don't forget it. You owe me. Rocky should have punched this guy to death.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Should have at least thrown him out the fucking window. But should have hit him. And you know what would have happened? Nothing. Not a single person in that neighborhood would have been like, not Paulie. Yeah, it would have just been like. It was. He had it coming.

[Bill Simmons]

He said you're busted to his sister.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That's like the worst thing you could possibly say to your sister.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, Rocky is kind of complicit because Paulie makes her go out with him. Paulie comes in, he throws. He sacrifices Thanksgiving turkey. That's an all time asshole move. She goes. I mean, she goes, it's Thanksgiving. I can't go on a date because I'm making the turkey.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's like a really normal response. It's not like she's like, I have social anxiety. I can't go on a date. She's like, I've been making your fucking dinner.

[Sean Fennessey]

I've been making a Thanksgiving turkey. This dude takes the turkey, throws it out of the window and then eats a piece of it. So he gets some turkey for himself. And she's got to go out with Rock on Thanksgiving.

[Chris Ryan]

She's got to go to the stink house after the ice rink with no Thanksgiving dinner.

[Bill Simmons]

He's an abomination. It really jumps out every time you watch it. Because in like the 70s, then it's like, ah, Paulie, that irascible. You know, deep down there's nothing to like about him.

[Chris Ryan]

Living in between Rocky and Paulie while those two are like yelling out the window like, oh, Paulie, I got your sister. Yeah, my sister's a pig. It's so just like, I. I would just be like, come on, guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Paulie Panino. Yeah, we need a Poly Panino. Why is this character so awful? Category something like that.

[Sean Fennessey]

What's. What's with you?

[Bill Simmons]

I had the. For the Butch's girlfriend award for weak link of the film. Either Polly or the. Just the Rocky Adrian. Courting scenes are so slow now in 20, 25, they're just. Yeah, it's 25 minutes of content that now you probably do nine.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I like the skating rink.

[Bill Simmons]

I know you like the skating rink. At the same time, if there's a transcript of it, it would be the worst transcript.

[Chris Ryan]

The sk Is. It could have just ended with a kiss at the skating rink. And that would be the end of the first date. And instead he's like, let's go back to my house and I'll show you.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's the. It's the skating rink. Then he has to convince her to come inside. Then he has to convince her to stay inside.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got to do the.

[Sean Fennessey]

Then he's got to show the. He's got to do the whole. It's like, all right, we get. We get it.

[Chris Ryan]

And then he starts denying his bodily fluids. That's the tough part. You know, Gets her hooked on it. And then he's just like, no.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because at the end, she becomes like a little. Little minks.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's ready. She jumps on it.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, she's discovered parts of herself.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She's become a sexual human being.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

My flex choice does Steven Seagal. Hard to kill a word for. Did this movie need a better intimacy coordinator? Yeah, he kind of mauls her a little bit in the first.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's no kind of.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I'm trying to be kind of Rocky. It's a little bit of a Molly.

[Chris Ryan]

He also. I mean, she doesn't have a lot of options in that scene. Like, he's kind of especially.

[Bill Simmons]

She's nowhere. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

She's like, can I use the phone? He's like, it's.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a little uncomfortable. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. He subtly asked for consent. It's like, I'm gonna kiss you now. But at that point, she was in a spot, and I don't feel like she felt like she could do anything else.

[Bill Simmons]

I also. Just another one I would add is the Sean Penn Award for Excellence in smoking. I thought Stallone smoking was excellent, but.

[Chris Ryan]

We need to maybe add another cigarette award here, which is the Sylvester Stallone award for smoking so much in a movie that you quit smoking.

[Bill Simmons]

Smoking in real life.

[Chris Ryan]

In real life, he quit after Rocky because he was like. It was too gross. I'd smoked so much on Rocky, I had to. I had to quit.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, interesting. Didn't know that. That wasn't in my research.

[Chris Ryan]

Stallone is for quitters. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Wood stage. The worst everything about Paulie. Chuck Wepner.

[Chris Ryan]

Your body's gonna dry up.

[Bill Simmons]

What Mean thing didn't Paulie say to his sister.

[Chris Ryan]

No one says, paul, you piece of. Shut up.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Nobody. He.

[Bill Simmons]

He. Nobody punches him at a bar or anything.

[Sean Fennessey]

He disses the way she looks. He disses her age. He disses everything.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought about quitting drinking last night watching Paulie. I was like, this is Not Chuck Wepner.

[Bill Simmons]

That whole story Age the worst. You mentioned the fight crowd scene Cr. This is the biggest kind of nitpick. All these years later where I just wish somebody had done a George Lucas and just. Just paid the 50 grand to CGI some fans all over the place.

[Sean Fennessey]

So much for like. For the re release and stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Just if you're gonna be, hey, we got Rocky on Blu Ray. Just spend the 50k.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe James Cameron could stop making Avatar movies and instead single handedly populate the.

[Bill Simmons]

Like how we want to be the sports movie consultants. Like James Cameron should be like, let me just help out a couple of these classics. I'll just put some fans in.

[Chris Ryan]

Fincher is like moving curtains in panic room. Like you can get Fincher on the crowd here.

[Sean Fennessey]

You guys want James Cameron to fix Rocky? He invented a submarine and went to the deepest part of the ocean.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Can he add some F?

[Sean Fennessey]

Right. That's what. That's what he's.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Garrett Brown, the Steadicam guy, not taking points in the picture is age worse. What else do you have? Anything?

[Chris Ryan]

I think Rocky's advice to that 12 year old girl. You use bad words and maybe you end up becoming a whore. It's Marie, the little whore who hung out at the Atomic Hokey shop.

[Bill Simmons]

It is a leap. You hang out with those guys. Use a couple of bad words.

[Chris Ryan]

I always want to have a kid to say that.

[Bill Simmons]

You just be like, oh, you use bad words.

[Chris Ryan]

Become a little.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and then the weird part about this is another wood stage. The worst is watching that girl in this movie. She then becomes the Rocky Balboa love interest. Remember the girl he starts dating and yeah, that's the girl he starts dating in Rocky Balboa.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you serious? Is the little girl.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you kidding me? That's like how they reconnect. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think I've seen Rocky Balboa or I can't remember.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wait, wait, wait. Rocky Balboa was the one.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the one. The Antonio Tarver was Antonio Tarver. It's not a very good movie.

[Chris Ryan]

And Adrian's dead by this point.

[Bill Simmons]

Adrian's dead and he starts hanging out.

[Chris Ryan]

With from the Atomic Kogi shop.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes. Take it back. Do any other would say George. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Just. Just Paulie as the brother. Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

You just blew my mind with that. Oh, white do op groups. Yeah, it was tough.

[Bill Simmons]

One Ruffalo handed Rubenak Partridge overacting award. It's good acting, but it's got a good Adrian freaking out on Paulie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I cook for you. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just like, she goes. She goes up a level.

[Sean Fennessey]

So that's the thing with her is she is a fantastic actress, obviously. But when she turns it up to that point, like when she turns it up in the Carlo the Bafangul. The Bafangul, you.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, she goes, see a little whore.

[Sean Fennessey]

In two Marie, the little whore at.

[Chris Ryan]

The Atomic Poke shop.

[Sean Fennessey]

And two, she's a different character. So, like, it's like, pretty solid the whole way through. She never has to, like, turn it up. But when she turns it up, sometimes it gets away from her.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest Take a word. Did you have one?

[Chris Ryan]

Sierra, by far the most interesting non Big three character in this movie, not Rocky, Adrian or Apollo, is by far Godso. And I don't know how much of a. Whether it makes it a better or worse sports movie, but it's a much more interesting movie if Gatso tries to, like, assert his control over Rocky for the.

[Bill Simmons]

Tries to get him to fix the fight.

[Chris Ryan]

I just think Joe Spinell is awesome in this, obviously also in the Godfather or Godfather 2. And it would just be so cool if he was like, everybody's putting money on you going down the third.

[Sean Fennessey]

He gives him the 500 bucks, and.

[Chris Ryan]

You think he wants what you think. He's starting to, like, maybe try to get in on him a little bit. And I was like, this would have been so cool if we had two more gato scenes and two less poly scenes.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what's interesting about this, a great takes here. The original script, which much was much darker. It had Rocky throwing the fight.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And Mickey was a racist. Those were the two things that they softened in this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

He's just racist against Italians, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He's just irascible. Do you have a hottest take?

[Sean Fennessey]

I do not.

[Bill Simmons]

I have one, actually.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, I've already done this hottest take. I mean, this is the beginning of the greatest love story of our time, which was Rocky and Apollo.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, you did that too.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Rocky goes on to.

[Bill Simmons]

He almost caused a riot in Philadelphia. I have. I'm going old school with a super hot, hot take because I feel like we've gotten. We have rational hot takes now. I'm going.

[Chris Ryan]

We got away from our principles.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. If this movie didn't exist, Philadelphia would basically be Delaware with more attitude, a nicer art museum, and a couple pro sports names. Yeah. First of all, hot take.

[Chris Ryan]

Delaware is an entire state.

[Bill Simmons]

You mean that's fine. They're probably about the same Size.

[Chris Ryan]

No, that's not true. But you think that if Rocky didn't exist.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Rocky really made Philadelphia. That's my hot take. Well, what made Boston, I don't know. When we fucking knocked out the British and created America.

[Chris Ryan]

He affected.

[Bill Simmons]

Now it was a. It was an attempt to do hottest take. But it is funny how much this movie means to Philadelphia.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That it almost became like another sports station.

[Sean Fennessey]

Philadelphia has actual real legendary.

[Chris Ryan]

1980. They win the NBA championship. We were like in the desert.

[Bill Simmons]

You had the Flyers titles in the. In the seventies. I get it. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

But like Philly is just kind of.

[Bill Simmons]

Between Washington and New York.

[Chris Ryan]

The World series in the 83.

[Sean Fennessey]

They would like legitimate boxing legends. Like no bullshit. Like real. But the biggest box.

[Chris Ryan]

You're looking at me.

[Sean Fennessey]

Look at him from Philly.

[Chris Ryan]

Look at Jim from the town over there. It'd be Baltimore.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just trying to bring the hottest tape back to where it used to be.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Casting what ifs. United Artists wanted a well established star. Redford, who I think gets just mentioned for every movie ever. Ryan O'Neal and Burt Reynolds actually makes sense. And James Kahn makes sense. Like if I'm thinking about Hollywood back.

[Sean Fennessey]

Then, Ryan O'Neal is way too good looking.

[Chris Ryan]

Too awesome.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like I'm just saying James makes a lot of sense.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not saying makes sense in the movie. I'm saying makes sense. I could see the studios being like, here's the list of actors we want in this Rocky movie.

[Chris Ryan]

I. So I was going to save this for recasting couch. You could even call this a lukewarm take. What is this movie? If it's James Kahn as Rocky and Harvey Keitel is Paulie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh.

[Chris Ryan]

Or John Cazale as Paulie. Like if you have.

[Bill Simmons]

I think James Khan is too much baggage at this point to be Rocky.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you mean?

[Bill Simmons]

We know him from Godfather and a bunch of big movies. I think Rocky being an unknown really helps.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it worked out great. Like Burt Reynolds. Same thing. He's been in too many things. Things.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Those guys are just too movie starish.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I needed somebody that. You're almost rooting for him in real life too, as he's in the movie. This was interesting. Ken Norton was targeted for Apollo Creed. Pulled out and they gave it to Carl Weathers. Stallone wanted Harvey Keitel as Paulie. Probably a better movie. Carrie, Snodgrass, I don't even know who that is. Was chosen to play Adrian. And they had a money dispute and they auditioned A bunch of people, including Susan Sarandon and Cherry and Sarandon they really liked, but they thought she was just too pretty to be Adrian.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, Carrie Snodgrass is in Pill Rider. I remember.

[Bill Simmons]

This is my favorite, though. They wanted Lee Strasberg for Mickey and he wanted too much money.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this before two? Godfather two right after.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh. So. Yeah, because he didn't even want to. He wasn't even trying to act in movies. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

No one knows who gave the order, but I heard it. I wasn't angry.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wasn't it?

[Bill Simmons]

I said, this is the business we've chosen.

[Chris Ryan]

There's not even a statue of the man. The street named after him.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Rosado Brothers.

[Bill Simmons]

And then. Yeah, that's it for he's in the room.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I know.

[Chris Ryan]

I have a partner.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I know the answer to this. But we're going to do the category anyway. Just because Van here, the Van Lanthan word for it. Did this movie need more black people?

[Sean Fennessey]

Zero.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Wow. Best that guy's coming up. I think we have to take one more break. Best that Guy award. Joe Spinel does is. I think he's not eligible.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, for real?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's Joe Spinel.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's there, David.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a graduated, that guy.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's there, David.

[Bill Simmons]

There David is. Is Jurgens, the manager, the promoter.

[Chris Ryan]

He's in a bunch of cool stuff for us.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't know what his name was.

[Sean Fennessey]

As soon as I saw Joe Spinell, I was like, he's clearly the one. But I guess. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he's Joe Spinel. Stan Shaw was another one, but I think he's Stan Shaw who played Dipper and then Frank Stallone is Frank Stallone?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, the do op guy. Now, do you think Frank was like, me and my boys have a doo wop group and we'd love to get just 10 seconds.

[Bill Simmons]

I think slides like, can we get Frank in the movie? See if we can get him, like, 20 bucks.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Dion Waiters is a hopping category. We got Marie, the teenage delinquent. Tony Burton is Dude. Joe Spinel as gazo, Stu Nahan and Bill Baldwin. But my pick is Buddy the Driver.

[Chris Ryan]

You think Burgess is in too much of it?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's in too much. He's like the number three star in the movie. I think it's Gozo's Driver.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, he.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, Rock, did you get the number of the license plate that hit your face?

[Sean Fennessey]

He's the definition of the award.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

For sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, we Me and my dad used the license plate joke over and over again. Like, that was like, that's 20. 20 years. Got out of that one recasting couch. I'm not touching it. You want to touch it?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I was just saying, like, I think that there is a different version of Paulie that's like a little bit more likable, palatable.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And that, that jacozal May felt feel like he's played the failed brother a few too many times.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

But he's got a ton of charisma. Yeah, he would have definitely been like a more likable version.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, what if he was like a skinny. Kind of like nobody ever paid attention to him. Not like a raging alcoholic who tried to put logos on the back of people's robes.

[Bill Simmons]

Smart half ass Internet research. We. We did some of these already. I like that Duke didn't have a name in the movie. They didn't name until Rocket 2. The first two Steadicam films were Bound for Glory and Marathon Man. So it was all around the same time. They shot the ice skating date that way because they couldn't afford extras. Burgess had a fake cauliflower and a tube stuck up his nostril to make his nose look up. And then Bert Young did some weird stuff to get into character. Like he covered himself with vermouth on his neck. He wore too many clothes, so he was hot. He wanted to be like uncomfortable and angry during that.

[Chris Ryan]

He takes a slot of whatever he's drinking in the meat locker once and like his lower lip is all wet.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. And just like it's like a disgusting roast beef character.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

When they did the climactic fight, they didn't choreograph it and then realized they had to and had to basically stop and go back.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, so they just went in there all vibes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. They were like, oh, you do this and I'll do this. And then they're like.

[Chris Ryan]

They kind of cast weathers off of like a sparring session anyway. So I think they were probably like.

[Sean Fennessey]

We can just fight something else you like. Stallone actually cares a lot about boxing and obviously everyone knows that. But as the movies get on, you can see that he gets. He becomes like a much more athletic, much better boxer.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I think that there's. You could make the argument that one of the things that's age, the worst is like, they leave this conception of Rocky in this movie and then he gets, I think even more. He gets smarter and more physically talented as he gets older, which he's already 30 is not the case for boxers.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, this was a really good one. The poster, when he goes in, he sees the poster, he's like, those aren't my trunks. That was an actual mistake they made and they felt like they had to address it. So they added that scene so that they would be covered for people. Be like, why are the.

[Chris Ryan]

Just another really good touch script. It's just like him being in the Spectrum before the fight is one of my favorite little moments of the movie where he's just like, shit, this is too big for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and then the Spectrum doesn't become the Spectrum for most of the fight because they. There was some sort of union issue in Philly. Imagine that there was a. You think. You think you're better than me Union moment. Moment. And they had to film a lot of it in la.

[Sean Fennessey]

It feel if.

[Bill Simmons]

If it doesn't look like the Spectrum because you feel it in Rocky 2, you're like, oh, this is the Spectrum.

[Chris Ryan]

Now Spectrum is a cool place.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is it?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Because even I like this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is it because of the Rocky movies that I have such a 7, not 70s I wasn't around, but an 80s and early life connection to the Spectrum when I didn't care about Philly.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, I think probably Steve Zinkoff.

[Chris Ryan]

And Dr. J and it was Barkley. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. It had a great.

[Bill Simmons]

The Spectrum was cool.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I also like with the Spectrum and I don't know because it was a hockey basketball arena back into Philly's favor. Listen, I'm loyal to the hottest take. We're supposed to throw hot takes around. There was something about the Spectrum, the layout of it where the fan seemed a little closer. Yeah. The.

[Chris Ryan]

And the fan, it just felt like you were very like on top of.

[Bill Simmons]

They were the first. I felt like 70s arena to move people closer because if you look at some of the stuff, like I noticed this when we were doing the Celtics stock. Some of the. Even the early 70s, the courtside seats, they're like 30ft off the court.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And then the Spectrum, Kentucky Duke highlights from the latener shot game. Like people are like so close, like so up on. On the game.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's cool. Last thing going to fly now. How high do you think it got on The Billboard Hot 100 list?

[Chris Ryan]

I'm going to go top 10.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Seven.

[Bill Simmons]

How about one?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I was going to say number one.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know if you're going to do my flex category, but it was going to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Yours is coming. Okay. Isn't it coming? I think I deleted it.

[Chris Ryan]

Damn.

[Bill Simmons]

No, do it now.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. My okay moment when the movie. Wait, let me redo that. My okay moment when the movie jumps up a notch is when gonna fly now. Drops like 90 minutes in. Because you're really like, all right, man, this is kind of. Kind of a sleepy boxing movie, man. What are we gonna. And then it's like, you just.

[Bill Simmons]

Just.

[Chris Ryan]

It really. It gets the adrenaline going.

[Bill Simmons]

He's racing the boat, and Sierra's like, you know who they're looking at? They're looking at us.

[Chris Ryan]

LAPD.

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mountain, Stallone. I think we've litigated this 10 other times. I think his Apex mountain was that Rocky 3. Rambo.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

82.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this Apex Mountain for a woman taking her glasses off and getting that much hotter?

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. Ben's going through all his porn searches now.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, no, it's easy. I can go one time. Lisa. And anyway. But wow. Is. Would have to be.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm trying to think of, like, it's.

[Bill Simmons]

A big step up. Other glasses are really.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's, like, other ones. She's all that. And. Yeah, but. But this one is. Would have to be bigger than those. But there's. There's another one.

[Bill Simmons]

Diversity.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't actually take your glasses off. I'm not like, whoa, Adrian's hot. But I'm just. It is a classic kind of like she takes them off, and it's like, now all of a sudden.

[Sean Fennessey]

What a good question. I'm trying to think there's one that I'm missing, and people going to. There's one I'm missing, where the guy takes it off, and then just this woman screams. But I can't remember that. This is probably the most famous, though. Probably starts the whole deal.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so the glasses are so ugly, right? They're, like, out of, like, 1925 pharmacy glasses or whatever. Talia Shire. I'm going to say yes for her.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have. Yes for her for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And she got a couple projects out of this, but none of them made it interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Career.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, all big. Doesn't have much of a presence other than. But, like, every single movie she's in is, like, kind of like a hitter.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to take care of you now. Michael.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Jason Schwartzman tells this really funny story about, like, for most of the beginning of his life, people calling his mom Adrian.

[Bill Simmons]

And I forgot that's his mom.

[Chris Ryan]

And, like, he's just like, why are they calling you Adrian? And she would just be like, yeah, though. They're confused. They don't understand. And then like he starts to realize like a hundred people can't be wrong when they're like, hey, Adrian. Yo, Adrian gets it. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mount for shy girlfriends. Cr.

[Chris Ryan]

It might be. Yeah, it might be. I was also going to ask if this Apex Mountain for withholding sex while training and. Or competing in sports. Is it this or Bull Durham?

[Bill Simmons]

Bul. Dur. Because I think he's still having sex.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Cuz you know what?

[Chris Ryan]

Wait, you think Rock woke up in sex?

[Bill Simmons]

I think he woke up a beast with Adrian. I think there was a lot of time thinking in the fish store. Yeah. Fan knows I'm being for real. Like, look, I think there was. There's a Before clone him one time.

[Sean Fennessey]

And she's doing a little.

[Bill Simmons]

She's.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's pecking at him. He can't do it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Cuz he's like, I. You know, I'm trying to save all my juices, you know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Women.

[Sean Fennessey]

We can. Women. Weaken the legs though, is a classic. Classic line.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Classic.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, what's the phenomenon behind that? Because you. You have more testosterone if you haven't shot a load in a while. Is that what we're supposed to.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think sports science was really.

[Bill Simmons]

Did they ever cover this with John Brankus?

[Sean Fennessey]

Dog, I swear.

[Chris Ryan]

Should they try this with Embiid?

[Bill Simmons]

Just like.

[Chris Ryan]

No, not November. See if your knee swelling goes down.

[Sean Fennessey]

HBO boxes.

[Chris Ryan]

Who is now out for.

[Bill Simmons]

The season, by the way. Breaking news on a Friday.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm sorry, Joel. I was just kidding.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh God.

[Bill Simmons]

I was gonna say maybe they try that with Anthony Edwards.

[Sean Fennessey]

Zion.

[Bill Simmons]

John Avildson, even though he won the Oscar for this. Make a case it's Karate Kid.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because then he's got Rocky and Karate Kid. Karate Kid definitely made more Avilton.

[Chris Ryan]

You think? Whatever happened was. So did Avildon fall out with Stallone? How come he couldn't? They wouldn't.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think he was a giant boxing fan. Well, Stallone wanted to direct the second one himself. He wanted to do the written and directed by Sylvester Stallone move. Philadelphia, Apex Mountain cr. I'll let you decide.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I think the founding of our nation probably 1776 is a pretty big one.

[Bill Simmons]

Solid for some.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then not everybody was in the.

[Chris Ryan]

83 Sixers title being the Pats in 18. This is up there, though.

[Bill Simmons]

This is ending the Mahomes dynasty.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I think that this. If you were carving a Mount Rushmore of Philadelphia, they'd put Rocky with his Hands in the air on it.

[Sean Fennessey]

One of the most notable images of Philadelphia, Bert Young.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. What did Bert Younger.

[Bill Simmons]

It's probably Rocky 3. When. When this character becomes more tolerable, at least somewhat. Best. Bert Young, though, is. Is back to school with Rodney Dangerfield.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, yeah. Where he plays the driver's last Marshall.

[Bill Simmons]

Amazing, amazing performance.

[Chris Ryan]

We haven't done back to school, right?

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's on the list. Spider Rico. Definitely. Ice skating dates. Was there a better ice skating date?

[Sean Fennessey]

There is an ice skating date in Happy Gilmore. That's amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're right.

[Chris Ryan]

Cutting edge. Is that the figure skating date?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky movies? No.

[Sean Fennessey]

Boxing movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Boxing movies was the last one I had.

[Chris Ryan]

So give me. How are you defining this? Because a couple years later, Raging Bull comes out. Like, you know, I think maybe it's rewatchable.

[Bill Simmons]

Boxing movies.

[Chris Ryan]

Fine. I think aesthetically, I think I. I think Raging Bull is a better film.

[Sean Fennessey]

Raging Bull is better than this movie. But this movie is like much more, I think, culturally significant than Raging Bull.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're going to a desert island, do you take Raging Bull or Rocky?

[Sean Fennessey]

You take Rocky?

[Chris Ryan]

Honestly, I would take Raging Bull.

[Sean Fennessey]

Really?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Raging Bull is a lot more interesting to watch than Rocky is.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Sean Fennessey]

Raging Bull is so funny to me, man. It's just. It's a hilarious movie. It's like, it's. It's just. Why'd you fuck. Why'd you fuck him? Why you think? She just said she didn't do it. Why are you asking her why? She just says she didn't do it.

[Chris Ryan]

In a lot of ways, Raging Bull follows a little bit of rock. Have Pesci kind of playing the bird. Young Moriarty's the Adrian.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, Cruise or Hanks?

[Sean Fennessey]

Cruz. I went with Cruz.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's Cruise.

[Chris Ryan]

I guess it's Cruz.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I can't buy Hanks as a heavyweight boxing challenger.

[Chris Ryan]

You can buy Tom Cruise as a heavyweight box.

[Bill Simmons]

Because I think he would do like six months of prep for it. He would get. He would. He would gain all the weight and then would lose the weight during the five weeks of filming.

[Chris Ryan]

I actually, I'm going to say Hanks, but you guys obviously win this democracy.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz.

[Sean Fennessey]

I go with Cruz.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Scorsese or Spielberg?

[Chris Ryan]

Is this the perfect movie if they co direct it, huh? The inspirational side of Spielberg, the gritty side of Scorsese.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, Spiel Scors. Like Scorsese handles the all the Rocky Paulie type of. But then the bigger step back.

[Chris Ryan]

Can you imagine if Spielberg got His hands on, like, the last fight. And like, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's gorsic crazy.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, director situation.

[Chris Ryan]

Raging Bull a few years later. I mean, the. The opera entrance into the ring is.

[Bill Simmons]

This is becoming one of my favorite categories. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? Paulie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Polly. I got Paulie.

[Chris Ryan]

Or G's driver.

[Bill Simmons]

How about Jurgens?

[Sean Fennessey]

Jurgens, maybe.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Gotso's driver.

[Chris Ryan]

Hey, Rock, take her to the zoo.

[Bill Simmons]

Picking nets. So Rocky just waltzes into the Spectrum one day before the fight to look around. Let him in.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, he's on the fight. He's on the fight card. Hey, I'm Rocky Balboa. I'm fighting here tomorrow.

[Bill Simmons]

Goes all the way down to the Spectrum for. No, just to go look at the things hanging down. It's a little weird.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, it's not weird at all. You could go in there and fuck around with the ring to make sure that the ring is.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody's in there. They're not. Nobody's saying anything. It's completely empty.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

This is my biggest one. Five weeks. Plenty of time to prepare to fight the heavyweight champion of the world. I don't feel like 40 guys are turning that fight down. They make it seem like, oh, not enough time. Nobody's going to take it. It's like, oh, I got the feeling. So many people are taking.

[Chris Ryan]

But Apollo picks Rocky for the specific story.

[Bill Simmons]

But he does. He does that only because everybody keeps turning the fight down.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, okay. I was like, oh, he's in England. It's like, he can get back from England.

[Bill Simmons]

I just watch Kohli take a fight in 10 hours.

[Sean Fennessey]

And they actually say that. They go, this guy that goes, oh, he moved to California. He gained 50 pounds. So what? Bring him on and make the fight. I actually got the feeling that no one actually wanted to fight creed possibly. But five weeks is more than enough for 150 grand.

[Bill Simmons]

In 1976, Andrew Ruiz Jr.

[Sean Fennessey]

Took the fight on basically that much.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think in real boxing, people take it. Yeah, the string trick of putting string around your ankles, keep your balance. That seems like also.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that Nick's primary contribution, aside from the cut man. Man. Like, what is. What else does Mick teach him?

[Sean Fennessey]

This is something that I thought he.

[Chris Ryan]

Gives him a string around his feet.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm willing to have the combo.

[Sean Fennessey]

Apollo is a much better trainer than Mickey is. Yeah, Apollo is way better. Apollo actually transforms Rocky. He changes Rocky. Apollo is a much better trainer than Mickey is.

[Bill Simmons]

Woman weak in legs. We learned that. That go to the body, you need better Balance, that's three things. Stop smoking.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocks in a much better spot five weeks later than got a guy who's.

[Chris Ryan]

Going to open up your eyeball in the first.

[Bill Simmons]

Got a great cut guy with a razor blade. Any other nitpicks for you guys?

[Chris Ryan]

There's that scene where Van talked about being quite moved by Rocky, you know, doing where. Where were you 10 years ago? Scene with Mickey. And the blocking of that scene is kind of weird, but it's like, you know, the doors are closing and opening and mixed all the way down that hallway and then almost outside and he still is hearing this speech that Rocky's giving for the most part at like regular speaking voice. Yeah, I can't hear my wife in the other room if the water is on. So there's no fucking way that Mick can hear this monologue halfway down.

[Bill Simmons]

76 year old Mick.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, he's been punched in the head 7,000 times in his life.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

There's no way. Like what.

[Sean Fennessey]

My nitpick is, somebody would have gotten to Adrian before this. There's just no way. Oh, in the neighborhood. Someone would have gotten to her before.

[Bill Simmons]

Fish store customer. Fish store customer coming in, coming in by some piranha.

[Sean Fennessey]

Somebody coming in to buy the dog or something like that. Somebody would have gotten to her before.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, there's a question. So they're. Rocky and Paulie are best friends and Rocky's like 29, 30.

[Sean Fennessey]

30. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The first time it occurred to him to make a run at the fish store girl.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I think in the movie it seems like he's been going in a lot and making his, like I make a joke in the morning and a joke in the afternoon. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And unfortunately, she can't communicate until she.

[Chris Ryan]

Takes her glasses off. She's just like, let's, let's smash.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I mean, she gets it.

[Bill Simmons]

She really enjoyed it.

[Sean Fennessey]

She changes. She starts dressing different. She does the dick starts making her dress different. Like she. She starts. So I'm telling you, she totally changes.

[Chris Ryan]

Spending money that he hasn't made yet.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

She's like, I got a red coat. You better hand that ring that.

[Bill Simmons]

That would have been a better hottest take for me. Here's why. Virginity is overrated.

[Sean Fennessey]

Whoa.

[Bill Simmons]

Sequel Prequel, Prestige tv. All Blackcast are Untouchable. They've done. They did them all, pretty much all of those versions.

[Chris Ryan]

Prestige. They haven't done a TV adaptation of this universe yet.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, you know what? They were going to, right.

[Bill Simmons]

I wasn't there. Honestly, I feel like we're good with.

[Sean Fennessey]

The cre in the Creed universe. No. Am I making this up? No.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I think because this.

[Bill Simmons]

We're done with Rocky.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's stop Amazon in the MGM purchase.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think that they were going to do like, the usual make it a universe kind of thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this movie better? The Wayne Jenkins, Danny Treo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, Nell Byron Mayo, Barney Cousins, Tony Romo, Harley Mays, Chris Gon or Daniel Plainview, you long legs, Wilford Brimley in the Firm. And I want to kind of add Gato's driver to this going forward. Take her to the zoo movie is.

[Chris Ryan]

Better with go driver, I was going to say. Oh, Mike. See, you don't just have to take Adrian to the zoo. She likes the ice rink, too.

[Bill Simmons]

I miss Collinsburg.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's been like two months for friend Tony Romo. She got a hop in her step gym. She loves having sex gyms. Different lady. She's talking now.

[Chris Ryan]

This is a lady who loves exotic fish and sex. With Rocky, my momo, Jim.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a sexual awakening.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jim.

[Chris Ryan]

It's making her feel things she's never felt before. Jim.

[Bill Simmons]

Just want to ask her who gets it.

[Chris Ryan]

I get Stallone for screenplay play.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. I think that's fair.

[Chris Ryan]

And this year, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Probably unanswerable questions. Do women weaken legs? Van, did we get a decision?

[Sean Fennessey]

I was about to say HBO did a whole thing. It was called Sex and the Sweet Science.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Where they did like a. HBO Boxing did it back in the day. It might have been Showtime.

[Bill Simmons]

Boxing was this, like, set in Vegas in the Bunny Ranch or whatever that show was where they merged the two shows.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right now it was called Cat House, but they, they, they. They talked about it and they got science guys together, and there's no scientific proof to it. Women do not, in fact, weaken legs.

[Bill Simmons]

What were the odds on FanDuel heading into this fight?

[Chris Ryan]

No, man, you'd have to.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think it would go higher than minus 2000, but I think creed is minus 2000.

[Sean Fennessey]

So what were the Tyson Buster Douglas odds? It's like 40.

[Bill Simmons]

That was like, minor. Yeah, that was like 30 to 1. That was the last time they were that hard high. So maybe 31 here. The over under for rounds, I think is two and a half.

[Sean Fennessey]

Two and a half? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, for sure. And people are banging the under.

[Sean Fennessey]

Now what happens?

[Chris Ryan]

This is where Gato gets involved.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You go out there, you can acquit yourself decently. You the last two rounds and you got to go down.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

What happens to the live odds Once Apollo goes down in the first round.

[Bill Simmons]

I think after the second round, it's just hard. It's like Apollo is now like minus 400.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's like a lot of Rocky Mountain. Many. What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie?

[Chris Ryan]

I got to tell you, not a lot. There's not a lot of showering going on in this movie, so I don't really know what I would walk away with.

[Bill Simmons]

I guess the gloves would be cool from the fight.

[Sean Fennessey]

Gloves? Yeah. Or Rocky's gloves. His little.

[Bill Simmons]

Or his little training gloves.

[Chris Ryan]

The one where he's bleeding all over them from punching the meat.

[Bill Simmons]

I really like the Italian Stallion gray sweatshirt he wears for three months straight, but I can't imagine. It smells awesome.

[Chris Ryan]

Fumigate it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Yeah. I was looking at some of the Mickey, like the training camp, like pullovers they have and stuff like that, but.

[Chris Ryan]

I think some of the posters outside of the gym would be cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a poster in Jurgen's office that I really liked.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe the photo of Mickey when he was a younger fighter. That's all messed up. That's pretty cool.

[Chris Ryan]

It would be cool if you started having like every day me and Sean and Mal and Van had to put our in lockers. And then every once in a while we'd come in inside skid row, put our on skid row.

[Bill Simmons]

He did like last week's podcast. Adrian's Joy of Sex book. Maybe that could be it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Adrian's Kama Sutra.

[Bill Simmons]

She's like, chapter five.

[Sean Fennessey]

Adrian's like, how about Adrian weaken the.

[Bill Simmons]

Legs, Rock lie this way.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The Coach Fitzstak award for best life lesson. Don't let anyone tell you you're a bum.

[Chris Ryan]

Be a thinker, not a stinker.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, mine was. You'd be happier if you were just dumber. Rock is a dumb, happy character.

[Chris Ryan]

Have you given up calling Ryan when.

[Bill Simmons]

We went 0 for 5? It's like. It's just. He doesn't answer. He's a. Lets it ring and then calls back 10 minutes later. Guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's fucking.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a full time screener, even with people he knows.

[Sean Fennessey]

Unbelievable. Like you call Rosillo and he.

[Chris Ryan]

We could give him a heads up.

[Sean Fennessey]

We could text him.

[Chris Ryan]

Unbelievable power on.

[Bill Simmons]

That wasn't the idea. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And he'll. It's always like, he's always.

[Chris Ryan]

I would like to know what he thinks of this though.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Best double feature choice. Would you go Rocky 2 or something else?

[Chris Ryan]

I go Raging Bull.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, I went Saturday Night Fever.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I like it.

[Sean Fennessey]

This. This movie made me want to watch Saturday Night Fever for some reason.

[Chris Ryan]

What about you?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, what's yours?

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky 2.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you have to go right from here into the second one, and then just make sure you Skip over about 40 minutes. When Adrian goes in a coma, so does the. When we do Rocky 2 Rewatchables, it's gonna be about 50 minutes.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's my least favorite one, but the.

[Bill Simmons]

Last 25 minutes are great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

When do you stop Counting Rocky movies? Four.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Well, you know what I like?

[Bill Simmons]

Savannah likes five.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. Rocky 5 is the one with Tommy Morrison.

[Sean Fennessey]

Tommy Morrison. I like Rocky 5.

[Chris Ryan]

5. And then Balboa.

[Bill Simmons]

I despise 5. But I will admit that the last like, 30 minutes.

[Chris Ryan]

I gotta go see Rocky Balboa to see if Marie in this. The thing that's the whole.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a huge plot of the movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

I've seen the movie before. I must have. I. I don't think that I connected that this. That was the character from the first movie.

[Bill Simmons]

So who won the movie? Obviously S. Stallone. Here's my question. Have we ever had somebody win a movie harder than this? I feel like this might be the number one who won the movie ever.

[Chris Ryan]

That's.

[Bill Simmons]

We would have said Tarantino, but I. But Stallone, like, as a writer and a star and then.

[Sean Fennessey]

Nah, you probably.

[Bill Simmons]

It has to be Stallone. Right?

[Chris Ryan]

In fact, I can't. I would say, oh, we could rename it the Stallone who won the Movie Award. But like, no one's ever really done this.

[Bill Simmons]

We've only seen at least since I started following movies, which is right around when this movie came out. There's only been a couple rags to riches stories like this with.

[Chris Ryan]

There's also not that even many times where, like, people have successfully, like, I'm. I mean, like Star is Born. Like, where people are like, I'm directing this or I'm writing it and I'm starring in it. And like, I'm going to learn to do something like.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's the problem. They're not going to let you do this very often. You're going to have to have. Have such a serendipitous set of circumstances for them to let you write it, star in it, when you're not bankable at all.

[Bill Simmons]

Tarantino is one, but he. He had true romance before, so he at least had a foot in the door.

[Chris Ryan]

Chaz Palmateri. Kindo was one.

[Bill Simmons]

You talking about for Pope? Yeah, for Pope.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, he had Reservoir Dogs too.

[Bill Simmons]

That's What? I mean.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, yeah. And he had Lawrence with him and all of that.

[Bill Simmons]

He had a foot in the door. Julia Roberts is another one. But she had Steel Magnolias, and she was in my pizza.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She was around, and I knew who it was. This was just for somebody to come out of nowhere and immediately become an A list star.

[Sean Fennessey]

I am really racking. I'm. I'm trying to think. I can't.

[Bill Simmons]

I. I. Legit Pacino and the Godfather maybe.

[Chris Ryan]

But he even does panic in Needle park and stuff. Like, he was a big deal.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I can't. Certainly not in the last 30 years.

[Chris Ryan]

Near the accomplishment. And even he. I was going to say Orson Wellesley doing, like, Citizen Kane, but he's. He was already considered a boy genius, like, coming out of, like, radio plays and, like, his theater company. Like, he had already done War of the Worlds on radio.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you say Charles Holmes on Midnight Boys?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a big one. Hey, man, respect.

[Chris Ryan]

Respect the pew pew, pew, pew.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're gonna start over your watch.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, we start over your. That's what you're gonna take it seriously.

[Bill Simmons]

Where did the pew pew come from?

[Chris Ryan]

Laser guns.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was like, yeah, we're the mid. Cause we're the Midnight Boys. We're like gunslingers. We're instant reaction. So we just shoot from the hip. Pew pew.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe we'll do Beep beep for us Sierra.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. For the rewatchables.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, that's it. So now we've done three Rockies.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The only one. And we've done Creed. So we've actually, I guess, done four Rockies.

[Chris Ryan]

Creed, three, four, and one.

[Bill Simmons]

Cause people always asked why we didn't do Rocky yet. Yet. Even though we'd done 3 and 4, I actually think that we handled it perfectly. 3, 4. 1 is the prequel and kind of end with 2, which is the least rewatchable of the four.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you see Creed 3?

[Bill Simmons]

I did.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thoughts?

[Bill Simmons]

I thought Majors was really good.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's really good in everything.

[Bill Simmons]

He was really good. And I. I think I liked it more than I like Creed 2.

[Sean Fennessey]

I can't even remember Creed 2. Creed 2 was with the Russian.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I think it's time for the franchise now that we're at 50.

[Chris Ryan]

Years, what we need.

[Bill Simmons]

Because you're not 50.

[Chris Ryan]

Nope.

[Bill Simmons]

So this franchise is older than you are.

[Chris Ryan]

Two years before I was born. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but.

[Chris Ryan]

Or they shot it two years before I was born. I was gonna say that. What they need to do is get back to what makes this story so meaningful, is that it's a guy out of nowhere and you can't do that if it's like it's a Paul Creed. So son.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean there is a move left that the. The Shields movie which I really liked. But there's a female Rocky angle that they could do. They wanted to flip it basically do all the same stuff and have it be. And have Paulie be the sister and. But yeah, but nobody wants that. Like just come up with your own.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're probably too cynical for Rocky now. We've seen we. We want to me like looking at it like this, you're just going to ask so many questions like why didn't he fight amateurs? Like what? Blah, blah, blah. Like a guy with 21 losses.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Becoming like it's just.

[Chris Ryan]

Could you do a Rocky that was basically ufc. I guess that's Warrior.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I mean but even with Creed.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean you could UFC sitting there and it's weird. There just hasn't been enough UFC movie content at a high level. Warriors. By far the best one. But yeah, I guess you could do Rocky. Ufc.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I mean, yeah, I guess you could. Like. I don't know if the UFC or.

[Bill Simmons]

You make this more of an erotic thriller with Adrian's. It's built around Adrian's Awakening.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

That's it.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that what you would call it?

[Bill Simmons]

Adrian's Awakening's Awakening. A new way to look at the Rocky series.

[Sean Fennessey]

I got it a different movie where what's the Mafia guy named Gato.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Where he actually hires Adrian to weaken Rocky's legs.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, so that it.

[Sean Fennessey]

So some like they're trying to have. Or maybe not him. Maybe Apollo hires Adrian. Her awakenings because Rocky needs his legs weakened in the movie. That's the second one.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a brief twinkle in her eye when Clubber Lang is calling her out in Rocky iii.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, she liked it.

[Bill Simmons]

You could see for one second she's.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, oh, she's like, maybe I'm a dark shark.

[Bill Simmons]

Clubber.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like she lost that.

[Chris Ryan]

The only white guy is saying do up.

[Bill Simmons]

I've been waiting for Clubber to look my way.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, she liked it.

[Bill Simmons]

Rocky. So your rankings are still 3412 or 314-231-3142 for you.

[Chris Ryan]

314 2.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have? Van?

[Sean Fennessey]

I go 341525 over 2.

[Chris Ryan]

That much.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't like 2. I don't like 2. Two is my least. Two is my least watched Rocky movie.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's a really Fun coming in 30 minutes.

[Chris Ryan]

We gotta rush in and do this. Like, we gotta make it. This movie starts the second the first one ends.

[Sean Fennessey]

To me, it's the least original of the Rocky movies. Even five is original because Rocky has now fallen off of his perch. Yeah. Four is original Cold War stuff. Three is the Rocky the leap of the Rocky franchise. Two is like a continuation of one, and one is just superior.

[Bill Simmons]

I saw Rocky 2 in the theater with my best friend. Crowd standing. Nine fight scene, of course. Like, that's the only time I've ever seen the movie theater. People going fucking crazy. Like, it was like they were at, like, a fucking Patriots in Boston.

[Sean Fennessey]

They probably run out and harass some kids.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on.

[Sean Fennessey]

They probably. Hey, Salty, we show you mulion.

[Bill Simmons]

I knew. I knew I shouldn't have brought up that story. Well, we won't invite you on the.

[Chris Ryan]

Rocky Tupac shout out to Dedham, but.

[Bill Simmons]

When we do Adrian's Awakening, you're there, I'm there. All right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Of course.

[Bill Simmons]

Fancier. Great to see you. Thanks to Jack Sanders as well. Shout out to Craig Horbeck, who wasn't there this time around for us, but we got the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as as well, so you can check us out there. See you next week.