‘Shampoo’ With Bill Simmons, Cameron Crowe, and Sean Fennessey

Summary

The Rewatchables | Episode Summary

Film: Shampoo (1975)
Host: Bill Simmons
Guests: Cameron Crowe, Sean Fennessey
Date: December 9, 2025

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Overview:

This energetic episode of The Rewatchables brings legendary filmmaker and author Cameron Crowe to the table, along with regulars Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey, for an in-depth exploration of Hal Ashby’s 1975 classic, Shampoo. The conversation centers on the film’s unique blend of political context, sexual revolution, and Hollywood satire, the distinctive personas of Warren Beatty (who starred and co-wrote), and the enduring impact of the movie’s cast, craft, and subtext. The hosts dive into Ashby’s directorial genius, Robert Towne’s writing depth, and the film’s place in the pantheon of 1970s cinema.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Shampoo? (02:35–04:14)

• Cameron Crowe: Picked Shampoo because of its authentic evocation of its era and its importance in his own film education, admiring how it "bubbled up" among its filmic contemporaries for its music, character interplay, and generational shift in style.
  • “I just thought, like, here’s a new generation really in play of moviemakers that I’m going to love.” (03:04 — Crowe)
• Sean Fennessey: Views Shampoo as a generational signpost: “Politically relevant, sexually and socially relevant. It’s a huge movie star movie and a movie star persona movie. A movie star actively riffing on their persona... It’s just very watchable and funny… a popcorn movie about its time, which is a very hard thing to pull off.” (04:39 — Fennessey)

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2. Warren Beatty and the Question of Persona (07:10–10:47)

• The Performance: The hosts debate whether Beatty’s performance is "bravura" or "quietly bravura," marveling at how his personal legend and screen persona bleed together.
  • “He floats through these scenes... his seduction is, in fact, how he’s kind of slightly bewildered by what’s happening. But I’m incredibly handsome.” (08:20 — Crowe)
• Real Life Parallels: Anecdotes about Beatty’s lifestyle and approach to acting reinforce the blurring of man and myth.
  • “He gives himself, like, a showcase moment” in the scene cutting Jackie’s hair—an example of how Beatty wove his own allure into the movie. (10:47 — Crowe)

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3. Layered Themes: Not Just a Sex Comedy (05:18–08:01)

• The film pretends to be multiple genres—a sex farce, a party film, and political satire—while actually being a profound commentary on generational disconnection and the 1960s' end.
  • “It’s so cool how it’s pretending to be three different movies when it’s really the fourth movie.” (06:05 — Simmons)
  • “You walk away watching it a second or third time thinking, like, ‘hmm. We’re a little fucked.’ There’s a very bummer ending in this movie, really interesting to talk about.” (08:01 — Fennessey)

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4. Politics, Satire, and the Hollywood Lens (06:06–06:59; 13:55–15:17)

• Shampoo’s subtle embedding of Nixon’s 1968 election night and generational politics is highlighted, with Crowe praising the film for having no dogma and letting subtext breathe.
  • "There’s no dogma... Nixon is in scenes and stuff and actively, like in a scene, you can just see him." (06:06 — Crowe)
• Simmons spotlights Beatty’s own explanation of the film: a response to political dishonesty and generational “selling out.”

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5. Goldie Hawn: The Heart of the Film (15:17–18:59)

• Crowe singles out Goldie Hawn’s “Jill” as the film’s only truth-telling, non-cynical character, a proto-‘70s independent woman, even seeing a connection to Kate Hudson’s Penny Lane in Almost Famous.
  • “She takes off in a heroic way and actually is the only truth-telling character to George... Goldie steals the movie.” (15:17 – Crowe)

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6. Beatty’s Star Power and Selectiveness (19:05–20:12)

• Beatty’s extreme control over his roles and tendency to turn down major parts are discussed, illustrating his desire to curate his myth.
  • “He didn’t want to take risks.” (19:29 — Simmons)
• Crowe and Simmons agree that Shampoo epitomizes what Beatty’s true on-screen persona is.

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7. Production, Set Dynamics, and Collaborations (21:18–23:43)

• Crowe shares insights on the sometimes chaotic, multi-voice set, paralleling that with his own experiences as a director.
• Tells a story about Tom Cruise’s approach to Jerry Maguire—a model of collaborative, non-overbearing star power.

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8. Cultural and Historical Context (53:09–54:46)

• The hosts marvel at 1975’s legendary Best Picture lineup and speculate about the creative energy in that era.
  • “We used to know how to make movies.” (52:48 — Simmons)

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9. Noteworthy Anecdotes & Easter Eggs

• Music Notes: Paul Simon and Joni Mitchell contributed unused musical themes, with Beatty picking a less revealing, more ambiguous closing song to maintain his character’s enigma. (11:27–12:59)
• Cameron Crowe's own life: Shares stories of Warren Beatty cold-calling him with encouragement after Almost Famous’ poor opening and Annette Bening’s supportive handoff.
  • “He goes, ‘I just want you to know, you made a great movie. And there’s no actor in town that wouldn’t want to work with you. I just wanted to tell you that.’ And he hung up.” (30:28–31:01 — Crowe on Beatty)

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10. Iconic Supporting Cast & Characters (35:12–45:49)

• Raves for Julie Christie as the ideal counterweight to Beatty, and Goldie Hawn’s then-incipient stardom.
• Jack Warden’s turn as Lester: Consensus is that casting is perfect; no current equivalent exists for that specific old Hollywood persona.

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Notable Quotes

• “It’s not homework. It’s a popcorn movie about its time, which is a very hard thing to pull off.” (04:39 — Fennessey)
• “He lassos that... and he’s also running the movie, right? At the same time. There is no movie without him.” (21:12–21:19 — Crowe on Beatty)
• “Julie Christie’s quote: As long as I can remember, when I see a pretty woman and I go after and I make her, it’s like, I’m going to live forever.” (33:50 — via Simmons)
• “Jill is the only one that claws her way out of that.” (113:46 — Crowe on Goldie Hawn’s character)

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Highlighted Segments and Timestamps

• Cameron’s Backstory with the Film (02:35–04:14)
• Beatty’s Persona/Ego (08:20–10:47)
• On the Hidden Depths of Shampoo (05:18–08:01)
• Goldie Hawn and Almost Famous Connection (15:17–18:59)
• Beatty’s Selectivity in Roles (19:05–19:57)
• Creative On-Set Dynamics (21:18–23:24)
• Warren Beatty’s Encouragement (30:28–31:01)
• Iconic Party Scene & 1970s LA (69:02–70:29)
• Legacy: 1975’s “Best Picture” Lineup (52:36–53:56)

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Most Rewatchable Scene (58:47–63:59)

• Final Nominees:
  • Bistro stare-down party scene (62:25 — Crowe’s pick)
  • Lester and George’s “women only talk about one thing” conversation (62:31–63:59 — Fennessey’s/Simmons’ pick)

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What’s the Most 1975/1968 Thing? (64:00–67:52)

• Riding a motorcycle without a helmet.
• The sprawling, laid-back, less congested LA.
• The extras and party people at election night—"They don’t exist anymore." (65:57 — Crowe)

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Production Lore & Behind-the-Scenes (71:44–73:02)

• Lee Grant walked off the film for two days over a disagreement about her character.
• Crowe’s “Steven Seagal shitting on himself award” query.

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“What’s Aged the Best” (76:37–80:23)

• Kovacs’ cinematography and the tension in on-screen kisses.
• Warden and Beatty’s scenes together.
• Young Carrie Fisher’s bold debut.
• Soundtrack’s classic use of the Beach Boys, Beatles, and Hendrix.

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“What’s Aged the Worst” (86:12–88:27)

• Some dated language and attitudes.
• The Paul Simon musical cues.
• Allegations about Beatty’s behavior toward Fisher.

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“Picking Nits” (102:25–106:26)

• Whose house is the party in, exactly?
• How did Beatty’s character get his motorcycle to the last party when arriving by car?
• Various nitpicks for both Shampoo and Jerry Maguire.

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Legacy, Craft, and Lasting Takeaways

• Shampoo as Cultural Artifact: The film is both a product and critique of its time—an artifact of sexual politics, the political climate, and the end of ‘60s utopianism.
• Crowe’s Personal Connection: Admits, “I love writing and I love directing,” and that Shampoo shaped “kind of the first language of writing... writing for pure joy.”
• Selling Out: “Everyone sells out. [But] Jill is the only one who claws her way out.” (113:46–113:53 — Crowe)
• Beatty’s Apex?: Hosts agree Shampoo may be peak Beatty, perfectly aligning persona, power, and artistry.
• Crowe’s Book and Career Reflection (124:23–129:57): Crowe talks about writing for joy, reflecting on his unique path, and what he loves most about capturing and creating memorable character moments.

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Final Takeaways

• The episode buzzes with admiration for Shampoo’s layered narrative, iconic performances, and the cultural moment it reflects.
• Goldie Hawn is championed as the film’s true north, while Beatty’s enigmatic, self-mythologizing aura is dissected by three obsessed cinephiles.
• The group revels in the mechanics, comedy, sadness, and insight that make Shampoo more than just a ‘sex comedy’ or period piece—proving its place in the Rewatchables canon.

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For anyone interested in ‘70s cinema, star-driven Hollywood, or the bittersweet flavor of a generation’s end, this episode is a must-listen—a deep and affectionate collage of analysis, lore, and love for movies and the people who make them.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

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The Rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast network where you can find the big picture with Sean. Fantasy Oscar season.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, sure.

[Bill Simmons]

What's your leading contender now for best picture?

[Sean Fennessey]

One battle after another.

[Cameron Crowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the favorite?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think so.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, Cameron Crowe is here. You've never done the Rewatchables.

[Cameron Crowe]

I have not.

[Bill Simmons]

You've had movies on the Rewatchables, including a movie we haven't done yet that is the most asked why haven't you done this yet? Movie Almost Famous. But as I always tell people, it'll be the last movie we do.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Asked not just by fans of the show, but by many employees of the Ringer. When are we doing Almost Famous?

[Bill Simmons]

It's also the one that the most people who work for the Ringer have demanded to be on is really going to cause some problems. But regardless. And you have a new book, the Uncool.

[Cameron Crowe]

I do. But let me thank you for the honor of the Almost Famous Rewatchables Pantheon spot.

[Bill Simmons]

The last one, it's the walk off Homer. But we asked you. I didn't want you to have you on my real podcast because you've already been on it.

[Cameron Crowe]

I have.

[Bill Simmons]

I was like yeah, I did.

[Cameron Crowe]

Delightfully, I must say. Really enjoyed it.

[Bill Simmons]

Asked you for a pick and you pick shampoo and. And we're going to do that next. This episode of the Rewatchables is presented by State Farm. Whether you're debating watching that award winning sports drama or rewatching your comfort buddy comedy Movie for the 10th time, choices are important when it comes to choosing coverage. A State Farm agent can help you find options that are right for you. Go online@state farm.com or use the award winning app to get help from one of Their local agents like a good neighbor. State Farm is there.

[Sean Fennessey]

All right.

[Bill Simmons]

Shampoo came out 1975. This was your pick.

[Sean Fennessey]

Why?

[Cameron Crowe]

I really started coming on to movies that spoke to the era that I felt we were in. And I loved Mike Nichols movie, you know, the Graduate and Carnal Knowledge and stuff. But Shampoo kind of bubbled up into this place where the music was great. I loved the interconnection between the characters. And I just thought, like, here's a new generation really in play of movie makers that I'm going to love. And I've gone back through it over the years. It's fun to talk about. I chose it for us.

[Bill Simmons]

So how old were you when Shampoo comes out? Are you in high school yet?

[Cameron Crowe]

I think 18.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Okay. And it was iconic in the moment because Warren Beatty, who was known to be a womanizer and stuff, a ladies man par excellence, was playing this hairdresser who was using the fact that he was a straight hairdresser to sleep with all the women in his friend group. And the complications that happened as a result of that, I just thought, magnificently handled by Robert Towne. Hal Ashby was already my favorite director. So this was the third in a run for Hal Ashby that starts with Harold and Maude. So it's Harold and Maude, last detail, and then Shampoo, and you're like, wow, this guy can do a ton of different stuff. The actors love him, the words are great, and the music is epic. So I bring it into the lair.

[Bill Simmons]

To discuss good music. Sean, what's your relationship with this movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

I was negative 7 years old when the film was released, so I don't have that same in the moment connection to it. But the 1970s is my favorite period of American filmmaking. Hal Ashby is one of my favorite filmmakers as well. Robert Towne is also in the middle of an insane run. And so, like, when you're getting your film education as a young person, as I was probably a teenager when I really started diving in all these movies.

This is one of the big signposts. This is one of the most meaningful generational movies because it's a huge hit. It's politically relevant, it's sexually and socially relevant. It's a huge movie star movie and a movie star Persona. Movie a movie star actively riffing on their Persona. So it's got all this squishy, fun stuff to dig into as a fan. And it's also just very watchable and funny. You know, it's not. It's not a slog. It's not difficult in any way. It's not homework. It's. It's. It's a popcorn movie about its time, which is a very hard thing to pull off. So I've always really liked it and I'm stoked we're talking about it.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's so great.

[Bill Simmons]

It's funny characters.

[Cameron Crowe]

Really funny characters.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I go through the teenager with cable version of the arc of this movie where you watch it the first time and it's like, these women are hot. Is there going to be some nudity?

Can they show more of the sex scene? And then you get older and you're like, this movie's really. Didn't you get into. You go to college and you get into that. I'm now a film critic. I now have thoughts on how they make films. It was like, whoa, some really interesting choices in here. But you're thinking, like, ah, this guy's trying to get laid. It's a really funny movie. And then as you get a little older, you're like, ah, there's some layers to this. Yeah. And now I watch this in my 50s and it's not a sex comedy at all. It's really about the late 60s and all of these different things going on. It's all stealth underneath. And it's so cool how it's pretending to be three different movies when it's really the fourth movie.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's really well said. And the way he lays in politics. And Nixon's being reelected the night of all this. And it's just. There's no dogma. There's no, like, you know, hitting it on the head with. The generation is changing. It's like. It's just there. He's just like. Nixon is in scenes and stuff and actively, like in a scene, you can just see him. He's so large that he's right in there with Beatty. It's brilliant.

[Bill Simmons]

So you've Nixon in there, but you also. It's like what you said about. With they're not overt about this generation does not fit in with this younger generation. It's the little stuff like Jack Warden. Should I go in the hot tub? Yeah, come on in, dude.

[Cameron Crowe]

And he's like.

[Bill Simmons]

He's just fumbling around. It's so funny to watch him at the party just awkwardly fitting in. I don't feel like movies do that enough anymore where they'll try to bang you over the head with it versus this. Very subtle.

[Sean Fennessey]

But that's kind of the point of the movie, right? The point of the movie is all of this stuff. Is happening. The world is happening and unfolding, and decisions about how power operates is happening. But in Beverly hills and in 1968 and today, people, myself included, are just trying to get through their day. They've got their own concerns. They've got their own shit going on. They're trying to open salons. They're trying to record podcasts. I got a lot of stuff I got to do. I can't actually participate civically in the way that maybe I should be. And it's, like, empathetic about that struggle. But also, most of the characters are kind of buffoonish in a way, too, and it likes them, but it also sees that they're really flawed. And it's trying to balance this very delicate thing of. It's not trying to hector you about what your politics should be. It's not trying to hector the characters about their failure to identify those things, because everyone has kind of been somehow invoked in this. But you do walk away watching it a second or third time thinking, like, hmm.

We'Re, like, a little fucked. You know, like, there's definitely. It does have a kind of. There's a very bummer ending in this movie that is very. Really interesting to talk about, too. So it's not just a sex comedy, and it's not just a political observation. It is this weird fusion, this mutant idea that is very rare in movies, I think.

[Cameron Crowe]

Is it a bravura performance from Beatty, or is it quietly bravura? This is the thing that I always wonder because it's so kind of like, huh, he floats through these scenes. He has great stuff to say, but, like, it's kind of like. Well, some say that's what he was like in that. In that. In the day. Just his. His seduction is, in fact, how he's kind of slightly bewildered by what's happening. But I'm incredibly handsome. That, like, help me figure out how I'm gonna sleep.

[Bill Simmons]

I've shoveled it all.

[Cameron Crowe]

I'm just. I got other things that are bothering me and, you know, and it's like they all fall for it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wonder.

[Bill Simmons]

He's one of those actors where you don't know where the person stops and the actor begins, like, huge for that. Basically, Heaven Can Wait, which we did a few months ago on rewatch, was. I'm not sure there's any difference with this character and Joe Pendleton, because I think Fady just kind of bleeds into whoever he's doing. But I think this is what he's really like. Women liked him. He was always Stumbling from one place to the next. Like, when he made this movie, apparently he didn't have. He just bought a house. He didn't even have anywhere to live.

[Cameron Crowe]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And he would just bounce around and have. He's living in the hotel.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Cameron Crowe]

The Beverly Wilshire.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So this guy's on a triumph motorcycle. He's dating, like, five people at once, and he's just kind of bouncing around. And I think that was him.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's hard to know if he's incredibly enigmatic or extremely clear to us because he's only given five movie performances in the last 40 years. I mean, he doesn't really work very often. It's usually only in films that he directs. He didn't direct this movie, but he clearly had a huge hand in making it.

And so it does seem like in this movie, in Heaven Can Wait a little less so in. In Reds and in Dick Tracy. But even in Bullworth, it's kind of the similar Persona that you're talking about, the sort of, like, bumbling person in charge. But he looks like Warren Beatty. And so, like, some great stars are like that.

[Cameron Crowe]

They're just doing hairdo. Yeah, slightly.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's very handsome dude. Tall, strong. Like, not like. Yeah, I worked out with a personal trainer to do, like. You can see in some of the scenes, like, there's a physicality to him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And you can kind of see it with every woman. Like, oh, they're not going to be able to resist this guy. Which I think is a really hard place to get to. Like, even in Almost Famous, like, Russell Hammond had that. He could be like, I see it. Yeah, Yeah, I totally. I would not want to leave my girlfriend alone with this guy for 10 minutes. Like, some people had that. But that was basically Beatty's entire 70s where you're like, I see it.

[Cameron Crowe]

No question. He gives himself, like, a showcase moment in the bathroom scene where he's. He's like, you know, cutting Felicia's. Is it Felicia? Yeah, Jackie. Jackie's hair. So he's cutting Jackie's hair. But he gives himself a moment where he preens just a little bit. You see the physique. You see this, like, freaking belt and his turquoise and his necklace and everything. And his ass is in the mirror reflected behind. It's like.

[Bill Simmons]

It shows a little ass crack.

[Cameron Crowe]

Okay, we get this. It's three seconds. But, you know, you're here for the three seconds and you know what you're trying to do. Yeah, but. And so it's fascinating. There's a cool little Easter egg of a piece of information I thought I'd share with you guys.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh.

[Cameron Crowe]

So Paul Simon was, like the hottest guy around at that time for doing, you know, a song for a movie like Sounds of Silence, Graduate, all that stuff. So Beatty really was looking for a song to end the movie, but he was also looking for a score from Paul Simon. And I guess we can look it up, but I guess there was quite a dance to get the new song from Paul Simon or the new score. But ultimately all he came up with was doo doo doo, which plays throughout the movie in every possible way, but it's just doo doo doo. That's all it is.

[Bill Simmons]

It's very strange.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's very strange. So meanwhile, I guess Beatty is dating or is about to date Joni Mitchell, and he asks Joni Mitchell for a song, and Joni Mitchell writes a song called Sweet Bird, as in Sweet Bird of Youth. That references kind of the iconography of Beatty and Splendor in the Grass. I mean, it's a seriously insightful song about the Persona and the character. And he heard it, and he's like, ha, ha. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Great song. Not great for this movie. And if you listen to the song and think about what the power of a song like that would have been over the last scene, it's not the bumbling guy. It's the movie would know that that was a Persona under which was incredible insecurity and doubt. But he was like, no, no, no, no. Don't need that song in the movie. I'll take do, do, do.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Cameron Crowe]

And so.

[Bill Simmons]

That's great.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's fascinating.

[Bill Simmons]

And so didn't Carly Simon write, you're so vain too, about him, supposedly. Yeah, that was always the rumor.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Well, if you get too real good song. Not for me.

[Bill Simmons]

I think if you were an attractive celebrity in the 70s, you definitely climbed in the ring with Beatty at least one night and were circled by. I don't know if anything circled. I think you. I think you. There was always a moment where he's probably like, oh, you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Haven't met you yet. How are you? I'm Warren Beatty. And just did the Warren Beatty thing.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then, I mean, in this movie, he's breaking up with Julie Christie. He's starting to date Michelle Phillips, who had just broken up with Jack Nicholson. He's propositioning everybody in the. Like, he's just. But I think he did it in the same way that the Shampoo character does it, where it's. It never feels like he's right. Going for it. It's just kind of, oh, I do. Oh, my. And then he's stumbling into yet another. Another thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's so funny, too, because I think a lot of critics and academics read the movie as kind of an end of the Free Love era.

[Cameron Crowe]

Correct.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, 68 being this crit and everything that's coming soon. But Warren Beatty is still living in the Free Love era at this time. It hasn't closed for him.

[Bill Simmons]

So he said the book that was written about him, which is really good by Biskin, it's called Star. Beatty's explanation for the movie was Vietnam polarized the town. Shampoo's audience was the audience that didn't want to go to war, that used every means to end the war. Then Watergate destroyed authority in the country, ended trust in politicians. What Shampoo had to say was our generation at the time had to say about America, which is, we're not being honest about the way we're governed. Our leaders are not being honest. We're not honest about what we stand for. I don't think the people today remember very clearly the heat of political passion that existed during this period. Now nobody gives a shit. Now, he said this 15, 20 years ago. Interesting. Kind of still the case to some degree. Right?

[Cameron Crowe]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

To me, the big theme of this movie is selling out. Right. It's people that maybe they could shape what's happening, but they're like. They're kind of good with their lives. I like my house.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I'll end up with Jack Warden, even though he's way older than me. And I'm still in love with this other guy, but I'll have a better life with this person. That, to me, is the theme of the movie.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. And Jill, Goldie Hawn's character really ends up being the one that pries herself out of that cycle.

In a cool way.

[Bill Simmons]

We never know when he got the mustache.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. Tony Bill. You know what is it? Johnny Pope. Johnny Pope, the dragon with the neckerchief. But we never know if she sleeps with him. We never know if she gets the job to go to Egypt that he's dangling. All we know is that she opts out of the baity stew of people who are selling out to one degree or another. And it's interesting because even as a little guy seeing it, I knew that Goldie Hawn's character was my favorite character, even though he doesn't really profess love to her in the movie. And it's just kind of subtly put in There that she takes off in a heroic way and actually is the only truth telling character to George. Like she's the one that says you are not real, you're a phony. Be true to yourself. And he just. Not only doesn't he take it, he really doesn't take it. And barely is believable when he professes a kind of love to her later in the movie. It's an interesting character, but I think Goldie steals the movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's great. She's the only non cynic in the movie. Every other character has been betrayed or been lied to in a way that was so unforgivable that they then have metastasized it. She still feels like she's pure. She's at the beginning of something. So maybe.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, she gets the only real answer out of him, right? He's like, yeah, I just having sex with people. Like, yeah, all of them guilty.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I fucked them all. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I have to ask. Cause there's definitely a lot of DNA tissue for Almost Famous, right? Where you have, there's a big party scene, there's Goldie Hawn, you have the daughter who Goldie Hawn I think would have been Penny Lane 25 years earlier, no question. You have the selling out piece. Like what it's like, obviously you see this movie, you love it when you're 18 and then that stuff gets. When you have the ability to make a movie. But what did you take from it?

[Cameron Crowe]

Well, I'll tell you, great question. When Goldie Hawn, Jill discovers the earring, you know, in an early scene and realizes that he's fucking all of the people, right? Everyone's in play, you guys, that moment. And I didn't even realize it until I watched Shampoo again recently. The moment where Goldie Hawn goes through the realization cycle is so much like Kate and Almost Famous. What kind of beer, right? And I wanted that kind of moment and didn't even realize that I was going for a moment that her mother had patented in that movie. Because he leaves the camera on her. He lets you know, Ashby leaves the camera on Goldie and lets her go through it. And it's fucking amazing. And Kate does it too. And Kate's also great. In her new movie, this song, Sung Blue Movie, she channels the same kind of reality as Goldie in Shampoo. She's great.

[Bill Simmons]

It's so funny that Kate basically is replicating this Goldie Persona. It's almost like when Kobe was like, I love Michael Jordan, I'm just gonna. But in this case they're related, so it makes way more sense. But it's just funny. I was watching Golihan in this movie thinking, like, Kate probably could have been the character in this movie. Right. I don't know. Another parent, daughter slash son thing where the people. You could just see them switching parts for, like, 10 years of movies, basically.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wait till Ben Simmons starts podcasting. That's when it's gonna happen.

[Bill Simmons]

My son takes my job. Wait, can we go back to Beatty for one second?

[Cameron Crowe]

Let's do it.

[Bill Simmons]

So we did this a little bit in the last Seven Can Wait. It's about, like, how aware he was of who he was and what he should be in a movie and what he shouldn't be in a movie. Like, there's stuff like, did he ever really get in a fistfight with anybody in a movie? Was he ever a bad guy?

[Sean Fennessey]

He's a struggle in the parallax view. Right in the apartment. I can remember.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

He always was kind of close to himself. But we did this the last time. All the movies he turned down. He turned down the Sundance Kid, Michael Corleone, Gordon Gekko, Jack Horner. He turned down the Sting, Great Gatsby, Superman, Splash. Big. Turned down Dave. Indecent Proposal, which I think would have been great. Kill Bill and Kill Bill and Misery. That's all in 20 years. He turned all those down because he was like. He was like. He didn't want to take risks.

[Sean Fennessey]

He would have been great in, like, 90% of those two. You can see why the writers and filmmakers wanted him for those parts. So interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

If he's an Indecent Proposal. That movie's amazing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because she might not come back. Like, this could.

[Cameron Crowe]

Amazing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the other one he did that with, that he's actually in. That's really fascinating. That I might want to do on rewatch was at some point is Truth or Dare, when he's dating Madonna and he's in there as Warren Beatty, like, kind of interacting with her world, and he's so confused by it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not a performance, though, but a performance. Like, you can. You can measure performance, but, like, you can measure what his screen Persona is against that documentary and the fact that there is not such a wide barrier between those two things.

[Bill Simmons]

So what's his best. What's his number one performance for you?

[Cameron Crowe]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean's going to go stealth with his pick.

[Cameron Crowe]

I'm just warning you. I'm going to go shampoo. Shampoo. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. I really like it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think his best movie acting is probably Reds. And it feels the furthest away from what he actually is.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's a good point.

[Sean Fennessey]

And he holds that big movie like that on his shoulders. But I would rather watch this movie any day of the week. I love Parallax View as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I would go shampoo as well, only because I can't imagine anyone else playing this part.

[Cameron Crowe]

And he lassos that.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't think of what other talking about.

[Cameron Crowe]

And he's also running the movie, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, right.

[Cameron Crowe]

At the same time, there is no movie without him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Cameron Crowe]

He's in all of the movie, so I love it. I need to know more about his relationship with Ashby making the movie. I wonder if it was.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, there's a lot of good stuff written about that in the two Biskin books about.

Hard to tell how much he took over the movie, but he definitely did. And they felt like on the set, there's too many voices. It didn't sound like a very happy set. And there was multiple people kind of weighing in. And then I think Ashby, everybody would always say, like, the editing was like the. He was just the master in the editing room. And that was probably where he had the biggest impact on it. But it sounded like on the set. Have you ever had a situation like that where you're making a movie and somebody you're making the movie, you don't have to say who it was, but somebody that you're making the movie with had kind of too big of a.

[Cameron Crowe]

Voice or tried to have.

[Bill Simmons]

Or tried to have two big.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, it's happened.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

And, you know, you take a walk with the person and you talk to them about it, or you, you know, have a beer afterwards and. And talk to them and just, you know, be a player, coach and just like, you know, give me your opinions. Let's talk about all of it. I'm a really collaborative person, but it can. It. It doesn't have to spill into a. A. A public jousting, you know? Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't believe you did this. Like, what a day.

[Cameron Crowe]

You know what I can say he actually was the furthest away from this because when he had agreed to Jerry Maguire. Well, actually, when we were talking about him for Jerry Maguire, all my friends were whispering, oh, the keys to the kingdom go to him immediately. You know that you'll barely get a parking space. This is like, it's gone. You don't have it anymore. Yeah, he'll be in your movie, but you can stay home. It's like, these were the kind of raps that I got But. But when Cruz read the script, he called and said, I love this script. I really relate to this guy. He was in England doing Eyes Wide Shut. And he said, how about if I fly out there and just read it for you guys and you can tell me if you like it. So I called all my friends back and said, he wants to audition. And they're like, well, he's cool.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's like the Most famous under 35 actor in the world at this point.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

And he did fly in and he sat in a chair and he read it out loud for us and we were like, holy. I was playing Magic Bus by the who, the song that opens the movie. And he's reading it. And it was just like the voice in my head when I wrote it, except better and immediately. And maybe he just knew this, that, you know, giving you a taste of that you were going to do everything you possibly could to keep him in the part and make the movie. And that's the movie. And. And. And then the business of it all happens, which is pretty easy.

[Sean Fennessey]

But.

[Cameron Crowe]

But he was not going to spackle himself into a project that he didn't feel was right for everybody involved. He's, you know, he's a guy who's at the top of the call sheet, who isn't the person that tries to influence everything. He says, I don't want to be a director, but I'll show up, you know, on off days to do, you know, off camera stuff where I'm not even on camera for Jay Moore or someone like that. And their minds are blown because he knows their lines and his lines too. That's who he is.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, go ahead.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have a question about Jerry Maguire related to Shampoo. So one of the things that's really interesting about this movie is that it's a recent history movie. It's like it's set seven years in the past, but it's essentially attempting to capture something that we understand. Jerry Maguire is like very similar. It's a present day movie. Something you were creating a world that had to be really close to our world for people to buy it. And that feels really hard to do. Like Shampoo does it really well. The Beverly Hills of 1968, which still kind of looks like the Beverly Hills of right now. It feels like a real place shot on location. Like Jerry Maguire feels like it's happening in the world of sports and sports agencies. Like, how do you do that? How do you make something feel real?

[Cameron Crowe]

I think, like, try and get the details right. Like, do your Best to have the little things at the corners of the scenes be accurate.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you're like a 10 out of 10 maniac for that though. I mean, you're like all time. You, you get every single detail possible.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's why it takes so long to like put the movies together because the research phase is so seductive. It's like I could talk to one more person, they could talk about like.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, can you go crazy doing that though? Being like, oh, the cocktail napkins aren't right.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

In the hotel rooms in 1974, the cocktail napkins actually were red.

[Cameron Crowe]

They actually made me feel that way when we were doing Almost Famous because there were these crowd shots. San Diego Sports arena for Stillwater and stuff. And the audience, there was a bunch of the audience there and we're gonna be on camera and a lot of them are doing this, you know, like the devil horns. And that didn't exist in 1973. That was like Van Halen era. So I'm like, we gotta shoot this again, guys. Let me talk to the crowd, let me talk to the crowd. I'm like, hey guys, it's Cameron. I'm the director. Just wanna let you know, like, this didn't happen in 1973. Now meanwhile, the guys are standing around like whoever's there visiting from the studio and the people making the movie, they're doing this look.

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What a jerk.

[Cameron Crowe]

Talking about fingers on the extras. And then they say that thing to you. This is the thing that they say, which is so not true. If they're paying attention to that, you're lost, you know. But they are paying attention to that. I'm paying attention to that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. They didn't know YouTube and the Rewatchables and all of our podcasts were coming.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, you lose me if you, if you've got that going on.

[Sean Fennessey]

They had no idea. I would watch almost famous 350 times. But I will and I would have noticed.

[Bill Simmons]

Just wait till we get to one of my nitpicks and shampoo. I mean, it's going to blow your brain. I have a one nitpick where I'm like, I can't believe they did this one thing on, on Beatty and Cruz that I was thinking as you were talking about that it seems like the biggest stars, and I think beatty in the mid-70s sitting the conversation for biggest star. He's at least one of the people mentioned for sure. But it seems like they had this force. All of them have a force of personality in different ways that the people talk about. Them what it was like on the set or in the books that are written after. So Cruises is always like, that dude's just fucking gung ho. He's all in. He's ready to do anything it takes. And then you have. Some of the other people are like, yeah, he's method actor. Didn't really want to talk to anyone on the set. You know, like, he would throw himself in the character. And his. The implication is, oh, he seemed like kind of a dick. And then Beatty's, like, always involved in the movies he's making. So he's like a boss, but he's also an actor. I think that's like the hardest one to navigate.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's gotta be.

[Bill Simmons]

You're ordering people around, but you're also in the movie, but you're not the director.

[Cameron Crowe]

But is he ordering them around like. Like a. Like a baby character?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, Totally.

[Cameron Crowe]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

There's something a lot of passive aggressors.

[Cameron Crowe]

Off about this, the third act. I don't. I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know.

[Cameron Crowe]

I mean, I gotta reread Biskin and just get more of a taste of that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Does seem like he seduces.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

With a lot of his.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's it.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what they say, you know, that he draws people in and says, do this. You know, Biskin writes a lot about how he would draw people in for not as much money as maybe they were worth to do things he had an ability to convince people to do to, you know, Julie Christie and Goldie Hawn and all these people who are, if not already huge stars, you know, rising stars, making a movie for this low budget that is gonna be a huge smash and how much are they making on those movies? All that stuff is kind of interesting about his ability to do that, but also he kind of loves the seduction. He takes a long time to figure out what kind of movie he's gonna make. And then Robert Towne says that once he starts, he's like a maniac. Once he's working on the movie, he's obsessed, but he'll take years just developing and chewing over the idea that he comes up with.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they say that thing of, like, when he looks at you, you're the only person in the world. But, you know, I'm just remembering this now. The good fortune to. To write the. This book on Billy Wilder and spend this time around Billy. And Billy passed away. And one of the first people that said, let me be a part of this memorial. Warren Beatty. Wow. And he did show up, and he was not George from Shampoo. He was like, what can we do for Billy? So maybe that's a little bit of the guy who. Who decided on the movie because he was straight ahead. I'll tell you another little story that I'm just remembering now, which is wild.

When Almost Famous came out, we had a bad opening weekend. We actually got beaten by a reissue of the Exorcist. So a movie from 1973 slaughtered our movie about 1973, which was, you know, brutal. And so I was getting like 75 phone calls a day, and everything was really exciting. Then the opening weekend comes out. Things start to taper down. Then the LA Times did a story about the budget of Almost Famous, and it was a nasty little story about he spent so much money and he did a lot of takes.

[Bill Simmons]

I hate when they do that.

[Sean Fennessey]

We were just talking about this.

[Bill Simmons]

We were just talking about this recently. These assholes.

[Cameron Crowe]

Check it out. No calls the day that article comes out, and we're all sitting around the office and we're like, oh, shit, man. Nobody came to see the movie. The LA Times is, like, kicking shit on us. This is really a drag. And the phone rings.

Like nine at night, and we're still there in the office because we're too despondent to leave. Yeah, it's Annette Benning. And she says, hi, it's Annette Benning. Is Cameron there? It's like, yeah, we were just here weeping. And she goes, I want to put Warren on. Oh, And Warren Beatty comes on the phone. He goes, look, I don't really know you. He goes, but I just want you to know you made a great movie. And there's no actor in town that wouldn't want to work with you. I just wanted to tell you that. And he hung up.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna just start cold calling people.

[Cameron Crowe]

On their worst day.

[Bill Simmons]

Cold calling podcasts, people have failed. But, hey, it's Bill. Keep plugging away. You're good.

[Cameron Crowe]

Dig the hell. Always remember you.

[Bill Simmons]

That must have carried you for like a month after that.

[Cameron Crowe]

It did. And you know what? When we won the Oscar for Best Screenplay, I went to the Vanity Fair party, and as I was getting there, Beatty and Annette were leaving. And I saw Annette. I was like, hey, it's Cameron. Thank you for that call. And she's like, warren, Warren, get back here. And he came back and he shook my hand like, see, what I said came true and walked away.

[Bill Simmons]

What a great story.

[Cameron Crowe]

Look at what you jumped.

[Sean Fennessey]

How did you not lead with that?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's amazing.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's so weird because it was lodged in there. But we're so focused on Shampoo that I forgot my own kind of Beatty moment that happened, which. Which was not like George.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, and one of the few guys with the weight that. I mean, how many actors in the last 50 years, if you get that call, you're just. Your entire year has changed that. This person liked your movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I don't say this to diminish him at all, but I do wonder if he is as understood as one of the key participants, creators of this period of American movies, because he didn't make as many movies, and he hasn't made as many movies in the 21st century. And so obviously, what we're doing here celebrates what he contributed, but he does, you know, when Redford passes, he's like, too short.

[Bill Simmons]

I agree with you. There's.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's just like. It's kind of important to locate his legacy because he did more on individual movies than most of his contemporaries, as well as a producer, as a writer, eventually as a director and as like a conceiver of the projects. You know, he really. He didn't just wait for someone to call him to say, do you want to be in my movie? And he's distinct in that way, I think, from almost every single one of his contemporaries. Right. I mean, I don't know who else really transitioned as clear. I mean, I guess you could say Woody Allen is in that conversation.

[Bill Simmons]

Does it seem like anyone turned him down? If he wanted you for the movie, you just did the movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Biskin had this interesting theory that I don't know if I agree with, but he thinks Beatty was George enlister. And that was part of the reason he wanted to do the movie, because these were. He fancied himself as the sharp businessman with the great house, by the way, he bought this awesome house, apparently as he was making this movie and this Wheeler dealer and, you know. But at the same time, he was also George the hairdresser, just trying to get laid.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if that's true, but.

[Cameron Crowe]

It'S interesting theory by that he certainly makes a mini hero out of Lester.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Lester comes out.

[Sean Fennessey]

You don't hate him at the end.

[Bill Simmons]

No. Well, it's also Jack Warden.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is Jack Warden. Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Born free.

[Bill Simmons]

He also has this. He's this quote in the movie that's really funny. As long as I can remember, when I see a pretty girl and I go after and I make her, it's like, I'm gonna live forever. And that's where you're like, I don't know. Who's saying that? Are you the character? Are you Warren Beatty? Could be either.

All right, we're going to take. We'll take a quick break and then we got to talk about some of the other components of this movie. This episode is brought to you by AT&T. America's First Network is also its fastest and most reliable based on root metrics. United States root score report 1H 2025 tested with best commercially available smartphones on three national mobile networks across all available network types. Your experiences may vary. Roof metrics rankings are not an endorsement of AT&T. When you compare, there's no comparison. AT&T. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. J. Kelly, the new film from Academy Award nominee Noah Baumbach. My Guy. George Clooney stars as an actor confronting his past and present on a journey of self discovery alongside Adam Sandler, My Guy as his devoted manager. Critics are calling it a declaration of love to the chaotic art of filmmaking with the Wall Street Journal praising it as, quote, a transcendent comedy drama. J. Kelly now playing only on Netflix. Julie Christie. They dated for a long time. They made three movies together, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, which Sean owns in five different forms of physical media.

[Sean Fennessey]

I do. Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Did they have that in 8k uhd yet or. No?

[Sean Fennessey]

Just in 4k.

[Bill Simmons]

But yeah, just in 4k. Shampoo. Heaven Can Wait. They broke up in 1974. Famous relationship. There's all kinds of good stories. Supposedly they were on the outs because she made that Donald Sutherland movie where they may or may not have actually gotten it on.

[Sean Fennessey]

Don't look at them. Don't look.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes, he lost baby, lost his mind. Who knows what's true and not true 50 years later. But they had a very long, storied relationship and then she came back and worked with him again. There's nobody like her now. Who's her now? Nobody.

[Cameron Crowe]

Not really.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's such a perfect counterpoint to his energy, too. Yeah, she's so frank, direct, strong. You know, she does have a little, like, brittle vulnerability, but she is just the absolute awesome counterweight to him being like, oh, well, you know, I'm just kind of looking off into the distance. They're great together.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig had some thoughts.

[Cameron Crowe]

Just.

[Craig]

Just a magnificent woman.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mr. Like Christie.

[Craig]

Just an unbelievable cocktail of intellect and sex appeal.

[Sean Fennessey]

My God.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And confidence and just. And the accent. It's like, what was she missing? That first scene when she comes in and she's wearing like the the long pants with the. She's just so. There's elegant, confident, just.

[Cameron Crowe]

Just a star of her time in Shampoo. Dress wise, hair wise. Amazing. In Darling. Right. Darling is quite the character piece. Yeah, She's. She's. She's wonderful. They're wonderful together.

Kind of heartbreaking in the best way.

[Bill Simmons]

Another one that turned down some. Just turned down Reds, turned down the.

[Cameron Crowe]

Verdict, which would have been. Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Crazy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Part Charlotte Rampling part.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, Charlotte's good.

[Sean Fennessey]

It worked out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it worked out. And then you have Goldie Hawn, who's not quite Goldie Hawn yet, but she's almost Goldie Hawn since Sugarland Express Shampoo. But it was like, I don't feel. Until foul play. I don't feel like she could have opened a major movie by Cactus Flower and all.

[Sean Fennessey]

She had done all those movies in the. But we didn't know if she could carry her, obviously.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but we didn't know if she could carry an NBA team to the third round of the playoffs yet.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. You're saying that's what she does here?

[Bill Simmons]

No foul play.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, okay. Foul play.

[Bill Simmons]

Foul play. It's like, yeah, I'm here, guys.

She's another one that I don't. There's not a lot of parallels to her either.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. Do you think there was a big casting call thing for that part of Jill or did he always know it was Goldie?

[Bill Simmons]

It seems from the research he knew he wanted to make a movie with those two. I don't know what his history was with Goldie. I'm assuming they probably dated first, but second at some point.

[Sean Fennessey]

But, yeah, it sounds like he sought her out.

[Cameron Crowe]

Interesting. Smart.

[Bill Simmons]

Smart.

[Cameron Crowe]

Really good with casting.

[Sean Fennessey]

And Jill and Jackie being friends is really interesting because Goldie and Julie Christie's dynamics are so different.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

But you buy it. You could see that they're running in the same kind of circles. Right. There's like, strikingly beautiful. Women do travel in packs, so, you know, you buy it.

[Bill Simmons]

Julie Christie had this quote that she felt bad that Goldie Hawn's part wasn't better and that she wondered if they should have switched parts. I don't think that would have worked at all.

[Sean Fennessey]

That was going to be literally my hot take.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you want to do that now?

[Sean Fennessey]

Is there a world where they switch parts in the movies better? I don't. I'm just. It's the hot take, so we can explore.

[Bill Simmons]

It's interesting.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, it is interesting. It's different.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a side of Goldie Hawn. We probably never saw in a movie. Cause I think that there's a way darker. Jackie's a way darker character.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know. I think you get Julie Christie's rage at the end. You get Julie Christie doing the third act in the Goldie Hawn part. That works. She couldn't do that.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Goldie being a little bit harder edged, a little bit more cynical would have been an interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

The Persona Julio has had, I think she's just onto this guy immediately, who he actually is. Whereas Goldie, you could see her being, like, fooled for half the movie because she's so innocent and pretty and happy. And she's part of my hot take, too.

[Cameron Crowe]

Later to hear Town talk about it, I think he feels that Jill is the only one that has a future. So does George actually get the money from Lester to do the salon, or is George just.

[Sean Fennessey]

My number one unanswerable question is that.

[Cameron Crowe]

Just this is the. Is he just emotionally and spiritually dead and has given up and he, too, is a sellout?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so here's in the. I was going to do this later in the research, but apparently there was an epilogue ending.

[Cameron Crowe]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Town had his version. Beatty had his version. Because they had these two. They're developing this for seven years. They have. They each had their own script. It was one of those things. And then they finally kind of merged the scripts. But they always want to have an epilogue set in 1975. And the point of the epilogue, I have it somewhere, was that everybody's life is still a mess and they couldn't figure out how to land the plane on it.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's so funny. You don't need it.

[Bill Simmons]

And they just decided to dump it and end it with him on the little mini cliff, which is a way better ending.

[Cameron Crowe]

Do, do, do.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

But it works out perfectly because isn't it, like, 10 days after the film comes out that Nixon resigns? So, like, they got there, the exact epilogue they needed in real life, in real time.

[Bill Simmons]

Ashby said, the upper class is full of shit, man. You know, they don't give a fuck about anybody. They were all whores. Everybody was selling out all through that picture. That was his take on Shampoo. So I think they're making this in 74. That's the height of. Everybody's just fed up. Watergate has already happened. People are just pissed. All the assassinations that happened in the 60s, Watergate. Now people are like, all right, fuck this.

[Sean Fennessey]

I do want to shout out Amy Scott's documentary Hal, about Hal. Ashby, which is an amazing portrait of him. And that quote specifically, and him saying those words is in the movie about Shampoo. There's only a limited amount of time devoted to shampoo in the movie, in part because it's not a paycheck job for Hal Ashby, but it's like a for hire thing, which most of his other films are not really like that. And his role on it is so interesting because all the other actors describe him as being extremely calm while Robert Towne and Beatty are fighting throughout the production of the movie. But then, like you said before, he's like, it's all gonna be in the edit. Like, we're good. Like, basically everybody who's on set here is a genius, and we're gonna figure this out. Like, I'm really not worried. And that turned out to be true. Like, there's not a bad performance in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

That documentary is great. And it convinced us to give Amy a Counting Crows doc for the music Box series that we do that's gonna be on HBO later this month.

[Cameron Crowe]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Well done.

[Bill Simmons]

Jack Warden, quickly.

[Cameron Crowe]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

Just power 75 to 82, shampoo, all the President's Men, Heaven Can Wait, the Champ, and justice for all being there. Used cars and the Verdict. Just ripping them off.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pretty good.

[Bill Simmons]

Peters. Peters across the board. Did Lester have to be a little bit more evil or was this right? With the right casting?

[Cameron Crowe]

I think it's right. I think it's so right. When he doesn't beat up Beatty and when he has that scene at the.

[Bill Simmons]

End, it's just like he's listening to him.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's like, glorious.

[Bill Simmons]

This guy.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like the Robert Loggia part. There's like the Jack. Jack Warden, Robert Loggia. This type of part. The older guy, you still see them maybe getting a little horny.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You could see them running a company. There's a dark side of them, but not really. I don't know who that. Who's that actor now?

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, gosh.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think that actor exists now.

[Cameron Crowe]

Oh, man.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like Jack Warden.

[Bill Simmons]

Like the Jack part.

[Cameron Crowe]

The Loggia.

[Bill Simmons]

The guy who would have been in big. The guy who would have been Lester in this movie. It's a hard one.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know.

[Cameron Crowe]

Oh, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe it just has gone away.

[Sean Fennessey]

John Goodman, you know, someone like that. Like, it's someone you don't see very often.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, John Goodman coming in on flight.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, he just.

[Cameron Crowe]

But a boat coming.

[Sean Fennessey]

But Jack Warden is one of those people who every. He just improves everything. He's in every time he's in a movie, even if the movie's not totally working, you are having fun watching him cook. And I think we talked about that in the Verdict, where he brings a completely different energy to Newman. And he comes into every movie and he's just like, what is this bullshit? That's kind of the attitude of every character that he plays. And he's perfect. Cause he's not a mustache twirling villain. He's a selfish rich guy. But he's not like, I'm gonna destroy these kids. He's like, I'm losing my youth and I kind of gotta get my youth back. How am I gonna do it?

[Cameron Crowe]

It's so great when Beatty is like, maybe there's something we can do with your hair. I don't know, a little puff it out a little bit. Lester, it's just like amazing. It's amazing. I, man, I just want to come up with who's the modern day loa Warden?

[Bill Simmons]

We'll figure it. Figure it out. Like four days from now.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

What's your favorite Warden performance? Just out of curiosity.

[Cameron Crowe]

By far. This. Because I can't. I can't get him coming up the. The walkway doing Born Free out of my mind. Like since I saw it since I was 18. I can't even. I just wanted sing it like that all the time.

[Sean Fennessey]

Born Free.

[Bill Simmons]

And then you mentioned the Hal Ashby movies that led to this. But then afterwards he also had Coming Home and Back and being there in back to back years.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Coming Home is a fascinating movie. It's a to be classic. It's been on to be for like three years straight.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I love that movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Did very well at the Oscars. It did very, very important movie for a lot of people. But there's a feel to it that out of all the Vietnam movies, it's the most. It's different kind of interesting, constructed Vietnam movie.

[Cameron Crowe]

It is interesting. It's, it's. It's different. I look at these, I look at the Herald and Maude last detail. Shampoo run as its own little pod.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Cameron Crowe]

I can't even tell you why, because I know he can. Ashby continues. But those three movies feel like of a piece. And I think my hot take. Ish thing is that of those three movies.

Shampoo probably has the most bumps in it like that make it a little dated, you know, like the gay stuff and. Yeah. It's just there's little things where you go, oh, and, and, and over time, I think less so. Harold and Maude And Last Detail.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

So though the layered and the texture and the depth that allows us to talk like this about Shampoo makes it completely memorable and important. There's something about the flow of the other two that's a different kind of elixir that might make them more seamless, you know, that's just my thought. I don't know how recently you guys have seen the other two movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

Last Detail is my favorite of the three.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's spectacular.

[Sean Fennessey]

Incredible movie. It's an interesting movie too. Cause I think without that movie, this movie doesn't happen. Or at least not in this way, because Beatty and Nicholson are close friends. And Ashby kind of enters Nicholson's orbit after Last Detail. And so he starts coming up to the house on Mulholland Drive and then on a Lakers game and he takes his girlfriend. That happens.

[Cameron Crowe]

It happened.

[Bill Simmons]

70S really something.

[Sean Fennessey]

But he finds somebody who like, he knows how Ashby can hang in this environment with big personalities with complicated subject matter, you know, like Last Detail also famously like one of the kind of like the roughest language movies of the time. And then Shampoo pushes it even further. Definitely some stuff that I'm sure we'll get into about what Julie Christie says in this movie, which in the movies he didn't hear very often.

[Bill Simmons]

And Jack, by all accounts, how was smoking pot morning, afternoon and night.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yes, this is what they say.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that was the word in the street.

[Sean Fennessey]

Whatever gets you through the night.

[Bill Simmons]

Robert Towne, Chinatown, Shampoo, Last Detail, all in a three year run.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you go through the uncredited thing in the 70s?

[Bill Simmons]

I mean the uncredited. It's basically him and Goldman were attached to 78% of all movies made that succeeded.

[Sean Fennessey]

The uncredited list is super wild for him.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't even know what's true and not true in this point. It just seems like everybody brought him on and just wrote him a check and he just made money. Then he has this weird 80s that include personal Best, which is a fascinating movie, which he wrote and directed. Tequila Sunrise, where he earnestly tried to get Pat Riley to play the Kurt Russell part, which is like one of my favorite weird movie things. Like genuinely tried to wrote the part for Pat Riley, tried to convince him to do it.

[Cameron Crowe]

Have you ever talked to Riley about that?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if anyone's ever. Riley's never come on my podcast because he can go fuck themselves. But no, I've never had him on. I don't like the heat.

[Cameron Crowe]

Let's bring him out. Pat Riley.

[Bill Simmons]

Here he is, right? Teo Sunrise, then Days of Thunder. He wrote and then he goes into the 90s where he's just writing the firm Mission Impossible.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But he did Without Limits, which I think is one of the best sports movies the last 30 years. But he had this three decade run and each decade was a little different.

[Cameron Crowe]

I think like Beatty, he was kind of in so many different places and like, you know, knowing, knowing everybody. I mean he, he was mixing. What was the movie after Tequila Sunrise that he did.

[Bill Simmons]

I can get it. But it was, I mean Days of Thunder was within two years of that.

[Cameron Crowe]

Maybe it was. I think it was after Tequila Sunrise he was mixing in the next studio and I think we were doing Elizabethtown and he was completely great. Wanted to see a reel of our movie and then showed me a reel of what he was working on and was. It was. I think he had one note that was kind of great, but it was that. It was that feeling, that Beatty like thing that we're talking about of like I'm an amoeba, that's I'm kind of present in a lot of stuff all over town and I, I have an effect on the movies that are being made and I dig it.

[Craig]

The Two Jakes.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that what it was?

[Cameron Crowe]

The Two Jakes? So he's, he's. And he's also kind of avuncular in his own way. I just thought he was very welcoming to, to a younger guy making this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're probably making singles at that point.

[Cameron Crowe]

This was after Singles. Yeah, this was the list of two.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jakes that was 90.

[Cameron Crowe]

Oh. So maybe this is.

[Bill Simmons]

It was probably.

[Cameron Crowe]

It was one of the ones after. I just, I remember it's something that he had been tinkering on a lot. So he didn't have quite a lock on what he was doing, but was very charming about talking about it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe he was doing Ask the Dust when you were doing Elizabethtown.

[Cameron Crowe]

No, I'll figure this out. Along with the New Loggia.

[Bill Simmons]

New Logia.

[Sean Fennessey]

New Loggia is a good category.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you one of those people that can work on four movies at once? I'm going to say no.

[Cameron Crowe]

I can, I can not finish four movies at once. No problem.

[Bill Simmons]

You're an all in on a project guy.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Usually for sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think Town just had that. My perception of it was that he had that shaman quality where people would call him and be like, can you help me fix this?

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And they have an answer.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he had like a very intense relationship with Warren Beatty and yeah, it's like they took this forever at Some point. Yeah. It was like, uncr. At some point, they had. He started to have the same kind of hair that Warren had. All this shit. Like, he was, like, looking like he was almost doing an impression.

[Sean Fennessey]

You don't want to compete with that. That's tough.

[Bill Simmons]

Same type of, like, trying to get the ladies, I guess his big contribution in this scene. They had this huge. Or to the movie, other than all the other stuff he did. But they had this huge argument about the key scene when he confesses to Goldie Hawn's character that he was actually having sex with everybody. And the big argument was whether he should be standing or sitting. And Town was like, you have to be sitting. You're bigger than her. It's threatening. She has to be in control. You have to be sitting down because she needs to be in control of the scene. And Beatty didn't want to do that. And they fought about it. Fought about it. Really got him to sit down. And that's why the scene works, because she's like, it's a great choice, and it's better. It wouldn't have worked if he's standing and towering over her. Thought that was interesting.

[Cameron Crowe]

I think he's right. I mean, don't you think? Like, if you imagine that scene with him standing, it is way different.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then there was a whole thing like, Beatty has a. It's a co. Screenwriting thing, and it's a big. There's a lot of stuff written about this, about. Town was pissed about it, but he wouldn't say anything. And then David Geffen was finally like, town's pissed about this. And then Beatty got mad at Town. Town's like, I'm not pissed. And all the Hollywood shit that we like in these books.

[Sean Fennessey]

A lot of lore in this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, a lot of lore.

[Cameron Crowe]

Much lore.

[Bill Simmons]

Three Oscar nominations in a row for Robert Town, by the way, year, year after year, banging him out. $4 million budget, made $60 million. Third biggest movie in 1975.

[Cameron Crowe]

Damn.

[Bill Simmons]

Lee Grant, who we didn't mention, got nominated for an Oscar.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Cameron Crowe]

I would say rightly so.

[Bill Simmons]

Ebert.

[Sean Fennessey]

She won, didn't she?

[Bill Simmons]

Did she win?

[Sean Fennessey]

She won. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She won the Oscar.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I probably should have had that in my notes. That seems more important than getting out.

[Sean Fennessey]

Her speech is really interesting because she.

[Cameron Crowe]

You know, was like, shawn has the speech.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, I watched the speech last night. She said something interesting about Ashby, which was just that.

All the actors. She thanked Town and Beatty and was like, they are the shepherds and architects of this movie. She was like, Ashby was the one who basically let us feel like we could fail, like we could take chances, like we could do things and it was going to be okay. And she's the last person that he thanks. Which I thought was interesting because of this, you know, Bermuda Triangle of creativity that this movie is operating inside of the screenplay.

[Bill Simmons]

Got nominated.

We also had Jack Warden getting nominated.

The movie did not got nominated. You know why?

[Cameron Crowe]

Tell me.

[Bill Simmons]

One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, Barry Lyndon, Dog Day Afternoon, Jaws at Nashville.

[Cameron Crowe]

Holy.

[Bill Simmons]

Good luck. Good luck cracking that crew.

[Cameron Crowe]

Six, baby.

[Sean Fennessey]

We have. We do this on every episode. We talk.

[Bill Simmons]

We used to know how to make movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was just gonna say, is this. Is that the best line, the best best picture lineup of all time? That is. We've other movies asked that question before up there.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, especially when you think of the directors that are involved. I mean, holy mackerel. It's pretty great. It's gotta be in the top three best, Best five. Cause there's no weak link at all.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's the one I always circle back to.

[Cameron Crowe]

Are they spurring each other on? Is my question. Like, are these filmmakers just, like, tweaking each other to go further?

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you think?

[Cameron Crowe]

I think yes. I think yes. I think it equates to music, too, and eras of music where there's people that remind you of a certain kind of greatness that makes you summon your own greatness is super powerful and fun. It's fun when you have something to compete against, obviously. And I think there was. I don't know. Billy Wilder talked about a greater camaraderie in that time and that he felt that it kind of splintered away in the time before he died, that there was less.

Elbow jabbing with a smile and a smirk. That made it more fun to, like, go up against your peers.

[Bill Simmons]

It's hard to explain the movies and music scene in that decade where you're. It's a combination of things evolving. People just. Just some of the best people we've ever had just all in one place together. And then like the kind of new shit being created that nobody had heard before. I just don't know if we'll ever see that again.

[Cameron Crowe]

Not. And in that time, like, not all of them knew how to use music or knew modern music. And not all of them knew the. The.

New, like, popular music or how to use it. Nichols did, obviously.

And, And. And Ashby to the max. But a lot of them just wanted to lean on score and all that stuff and, like, grandiose kind of music. So it really stuck out when somebody was able to, like, land a needle drop where you just went.

That's the marriage where everybody is just high watching it.

[Bill Simmons]

We always talk about with writers, if you cover the byline and you know who the writer is, that usually means they're a good writer. Like, oh, I know who that is. And there are so many directors in that decade where you could have been like, oh, that feels like a blank movie. And I wonder, like, if we still have that in the same way with as many directors now. I mean, we make more movies now.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, it's really hard to compare to this. This year, this time, this six or seven year period of films is in America alone is just to completely shape my taste and what I'm interested in and what I like from movies.

[Bill Simmons]

But movies are back. I don't know if you noticed.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think so.

[Bill Simmons]

Good movie year this year.

[Sean Fennessey]

A lot of stuff I've liked.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean's been.

[Sean Fennessey]

I hope movies are going to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean's nipples have been hard for all 2025. He's been delighted.

Our guy. Roger Ebert. Disappointing one for him. We do rewatchables. We always do the Roger review. Two and a half stars.

[Cameron Crowe]

Shocking. Ooh, tell me about that.

[Bill Simmons]

Shampoo is a movie I expected to admire enormously. It was made by some of Hollywood's most gifted talents, and the critical praise from New York has been almost deafening. But the movie didn't quite work for me. Its timing wasn't confident enough to pull off its ambitious conception. And he was basically like, this movie's trying to do a whole bunch of stuff it didn't totally pull off. But sometimes I do think it's a movie you need to watch a couple times, for sure. There's a lot going on, for sure. It's not one of those, you're gonna solve it right away.

[Sean Fennessey]

I did think he had a really good insight in his review, though. He wrote, the sexual gymnastics aren't the movie's point, however. And the sex scenes are never developed in an erotic manner. They're directed by Ashby Moore as symptoms of George's dilemma, which is that he likes being loving and kind. He listens to his clients and sometimes even really does care about their problems. But in some final way, he's too blocked to develop a relationship, to really give himself, which I think is a really smart reading of that character and maybe even a Beatty more broadly, you know, like, it's weird that he doesn't like the movie. It's so in his wheelhouse.

[Bill Simmons]

I bet he upgraded it when he did his thousands.

[Sean Fennessey]

All right.

[Cameron Crowe]

He upgrades. He upgrades.

[Bill Simmons]

We're gonna do most rewatchable scene. But before we do that, we have to talk about what you brought us for the set.

[Cameron Crowe]

Well, you know, I wanted to bring a little something for this hallowed room. And I just figured we'd go with one of the hidden heroes of Jerry Maguire.

[Bill Simmons]

Kush.

[Cameron Crowe]

Jerry o' Connell as Kush. And there are three of these, I must say, one is it in the hands of Jerry o'. Connell. And one I have. And now one belongs to.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, what an honor. One of the great honors in watchables.

[Cameron Crowe]

History, Kush's big promo posters.

[Bill Simmons]

Was this before Kushlash. Kushlash. Kushlash. Kushlash.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yes. Yeah. And I must say, Jerry, by the.

[Bill Simmons]

Way, he looks great in that.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's really selling it.

[Bill Simmons]

The jets are going to draft him first.

[Sean Fennessey]

God willing. If only we could have drafted Kush.

[Cameron Crowe]

He sees the future in his eyes. You can see that right there. It's all ahead of him, and he knows it.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's going through his progression.

[Cameron Crowe]

Slight paisley backing I thought you might enjoy. Hint of the undershirt, just nice texture.

[Bill Simmons]

Talking about details, this was in his hotel room when they. Where. Where was this in the actual movie?

[Cameron Crowe]

I think this is possibly.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna say it's in the hotel room with his dad. When Jerry goes and they have, like, all that paraphernalia.

[Cameron Crowe]

It is in the Bow Bridges.

[Bill Simmons]

He did surprise you with this. I'm going blind.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's so crazy, though, how. What a perfect match it is with the rest of the decor. Like, it does feel as though you found it on ebay and it is a real quarterback that you watched in 1979.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna find the perfect spot for it right now. We want to display it there. I don't want to. Like, Michael Myers was there. I don't want to. No, I can't long term. I don't want to piss off Myers.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, I got you.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, because he's a serial killer.

[Sean Fennessey]

I do. Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

It'll find a place.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's going to find a place. It'll be.

[Cameron Crowe]

It will gravitate to special place.

[Bill Simmons]

Honestly. The 70 side 7 Red Sox might be in trouble over in the corner.

[Cameron Crowe]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

But we'll figure out the perfect one, so thank you for that. I always love when people bring this.

[Cameron Crowe]

My pleasure.

[Bill Simmons]

Most rewatchable scene. I'm going to give you a couple choices.

George goes to visit Jill after he had sex with Felicia. And she realizes the Goldie Hawn character realizes that they're not going to have sex. And it's just kind of a funny, I'm going to go make some food. And she's like, wait, what happened? I thought.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then.

[Bill Simmons]

So the light bulb's going on. Like, I wonder if he just had sex. But I just like how they handle that. It's great. George. It's short, but George flipping out after he can't get alone when he dumps garbage anywhere. It's just a great Warren Beatty being a star scene. I like when he throws a jacket in. Then he's like, oh, wait, I need that jacket. No, fuck this jacket.

That chaotic hair salon scene when everybody's coming in and out. It's like a Three's Company episode.

Batty and Christie in the parking lot. Hey, I don't fuck anyone for money. I do it for fun. It's like, ugh, brutal.

[Cameron Crowe]

Brutal.

[Bill Simmons]

George doing Jackie's hair in the bathroom, which you mentioned. Big scene, the Carrie Fisher scene. Big scene, the party with the two Felicia Jackie interactions. But specifically the stare down the second time. They're just fucking locked like UFC fighters for it's like 90 seconds. Yeah, they never. The gaze never changes. Jack Warda moving through the groovy party like an alien. We talked about that. George confessing his love with Lucy and this guy with diamonds playing kicks in. And then they get found. But I'm gonna give this the Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness award for best needle drop. It's going down low. And then it kicks up, which I know you're one of the masters of.

[Cameron Crowe]

I'm with you. Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

George admitting to Joe that he slept with a lot of girls. Let's face it, I fucked them all. And then George makes peace with Lester.

[Cameron Crowe]

Also a good scene.

[Bill Simmons]

And Jackie dumps George on the mini cliff. Unless there are any other scenes you wanna mention. I think those are the nominees.

[Sean Fennessey]

I just wanna just the first, first. First scene of introducing the movie in the dark. Wouldn't it be nice in the darkness during the sex scene, which is like such a disorienting way to open a movie. You can't really figure out what's going on, you know, that they're having sex. You can't really see Lee Grant at all. Even when he gets up, especially when.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm 13, I'm like, is there a boob?

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it' yes.

[Cameron Crowe]

My first viewing, I was totally there.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, it fills you in. But like that like leaning forward thing that you're doing when you're watching the movie. Is a great way to get you interested in what's going on with this guy.

[Cameron Crowe]

That scene gets done a million times later and you find out that they're actually just like, you know, moving a piece of furniture or something. You're like, oh, they weren't really having sex. That movie is like, they're having sex. It's actually happening.

[Bill Simmons]

So what's your most rewatchable scene?

[Cameron Crowe]

Man, as you watch it, I just. As you go through it, I just kind of start thinking, what about my choice? But my, my choice really, the stare down bistro scene. Because I just think I was tempted to go with the, the Lucy in the sky with Diamonds. Like that whole party. I love, love, love. And that really destroyed me when I was a little guy first seeing it. But the orchestration of all the relationships in the bistro scene. Nixon getting reelected. The big wall size picture of Nixon, you know, Jackie getting drunk. And Beatty with, with my favorite reading in the movie where he's like, you know, she's going on and on and he's like, you're drunk. It's just fantastic. In any other movie, it's like, you're drunk, right? Don't you realize what you're doing? He's like, you're drunk, right? It's, it's just brilliant. And I, and I think without that scene where you're drawn into the interlocking relationships and you're feeling Jack Warden's pain and all that stuff, the movie isn't as seductively layered without it. So kind of structurally I go with that.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you got, Sean?

[Sean Fennessey]

I love the scene near the very end when Lester and George are.

[Bill Simmons]

That was my scene. That was my pick.

[Sean Fennessey]

I just think that women only talk.

[Bill Simmons]

About one thing, how some guy fucked them over. It's like, this is fucking great stuff.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Their instant camaraderie and just being assholes is very amusing. And the whole idea of the movie is in there too, which is sort of like, of course this rich guy is like, yeah, they're all bad. I don't care. I'm just trying to get, get through my day, you know, like the, to pack all that into that little moment and you know, to just show that like the. Through these guys eyes. The women are secondary, you know what I mean? They're props. They're like a means to an end of trying.

Kind of really reveals, I think, what they really think about these guys. But also, you know, that it's, it's true and it feels sincere. But also they're critical. Like it's a really fascinating blend.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's fascinating. And also Lester, not once but twice has a problem with the housekeeping. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

How do you live like this?

[Cameron Crowe]

Glasses.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not a dirty, clean glass in the house.

[Cameron Crowe]

Clean this glass and like pour you a drink that only. I am gonna drink. It's just crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Warden's so good in that scene. He comes in a little menacing.

[Cameron Crowe]

So good.

[Bill Simmons]

And then whatever George says about like your wife, all she wants to do is shop all day. Her daughter hates her.

[Cameron Crowe]

And he's like, oh, that's that.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you mean, hates her? Like he's.

[Cameron Crowe]

He's just.

[Bill Simmons]

His whole body like jolts.

[Cameron Crowe]

I know. No, it's like.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a great scene.

[Craig]

There's a great back and forth in that scene where Jack calls or Jack Warden calls Jackie a whore. And then Beatty goes, no, I think she really likes you. And he goes, really?

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, really.

[Sean Fennessey]

Really?

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, she likes you. That helps when she.

[Bill Simmons]

That scene is awesome.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's off with Lester.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, that's such a well written scene too.

[Sean Fennessey]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's like the perfect actors.

[Cameron Crowe]

He's been there all night. That's like the awesome thing at the top. Like, I've been here all night. Doing what? You certainly didn't do the housework. This is like you fucking sat there steam about the glasses being dirty.

[Sean Fennessey]

They're just brilliant together.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, next category. What's the most 1975 thing about this movie? Little tough, cuz it's set in 1968. Interesting. I'll give you a couple nominees though. Warren Beatty's hair.

Using the word groovy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Every time you're groovy, it's like, that's a word that is gone, Jack. I mean, there's some unfortunate gay bashing in this movie, but he uses the word fairy, which I haven't heard in 25 years.

[Cameron Crowe]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

Um, I have. LA just seems so sprawling and traffic free and happy to navigate and it's just not like it is now.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Even when they show the shots of the hill on sunset, like the houses aren't crammed together. It just seems like this happy mid-70s place the seven years after Nixon got elected. Subtext is good.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I'm going to go with. My winner is riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Just fucking hopping on the Triumph and moving around. It's noticeable when you watch.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's like it's just not a real action scene.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a happier time.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'll be coming back to the Triumph in a later category.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have for this anything else?

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, even just purely the style of every character, the haircuts that he's giving to match Felicia and Jackie is like such a chill. It is more 68 than 75.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe that should have been the category. What's the most 1968 thing about this movie? Yeah, the music and. Yeah, what do you have, Cameron?

[Cameron Crowe]

I would go for the extras and the people populating the party. The big sprawling party.

[Bill Simmons]

Those people do not exist anymore.

[Cameron Crowe]

They don't exist anymore. But also like, why are they there? Yeah, whose house is that? Which goes to another category. Unanswered questions like, whose house is that? Is it Lester's house? It looks like Lester's house.

[Sean Fennessey]

Also, it's election night. So is every. Is every election night a Tuesday?

[Bill Simmons]

And are people partying on election night? I guess in 1968, maybe.

[Cameron Crowe]

But like these are supposed to be the counterculture crowd. Like, how do they end up in this house? Yeah, like it's not. It's not like it's a shack in Laurel Canyon.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is like an estate.

[Cameron Crowe]

I don't know who they are, but they aren't really convincing. Particularly the guy that offers Jack Gordon the joint. He just kind of like. It's just hair, really. He doesn't really have anything to do. And there's a lot of like scarf, you know, scarfed headed women and stuff. And you just like. It's a little. It's a little caught in a time.

[Bill Simmons]

Warp, you know, who dipped into this Mad Men when they would have Don Draper go to LA for those seasons. And it was like same kind of thing. Like, what is this world? Who are these people? How did they get in this house?

[Cameron Crowe]

Can I say one thing about that? For so many movies that like try and do the era and like work real hard to get the extras all dressed up properly and stuff, all they have to do is watch the movie Monterey Pop. Monterey Pop has the best photography of the people in the audience. And it's just. That's what you should go to, to do your research on that because like people in that era. And I guess that's 68.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it is 68.

[Cameron Crowe]

Okay, so Monterey Pop is 68. So that's the era. There's people in the 50s, there's people who looked like they could be there now. It's just like the stew of what people in that era really looked like is there in the. The crowd shots of Monterey Pop. And sadly that's not shampoo, which is good on so many other details. They Just kind of fumble on that. And. And it is. It is 1975, 68, or whatever we're looking for.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was trying to think of other 68 movies that would be representative of this too. And I feel like. Isn't Medium Cool also 68 Medium Cool movie, which is also like, there's. It's a lot of real people in that movie, even though it's not a documentary. And. And it's the same thing. Like, you can see exactly how everyone was styled. This movie is like, some of it is accurate and some of it appears to be like, satirizing or riffing loosely on what it remembers seven years ago to be.

[Cameron Crowe]

The Beverly Hills stuff is pretty accurate. It feels pretty accurate. Of course, they're all in tuxes and stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, would you rather gone to a party in 1968 or no?

[Craig]

1968.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, it just seemed like a great time.

[Craig]

I'll just do it now. The flex category, you guys touched on this. Mine is the Den of Thieves Benny Hanna award for a scene stealing location. It's just unrecognizable. LA of 1968 versus now. It's just completely different. It feels so small, relaxed, approachable.

[Sean Fennessey]

The height of every building seems lower.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The winding roads of the Hollywood Hills. Every single part of it is so appealing and attractive and you completely understand why you would fall in love. I fall in love with it again, just watching it, convincing myself that, like, right now is somewhat still what it was in 68, which it's clearly not, but it's magical.

[Sean Fennessey]

There is a way, though, in which.

It has aged the best in terms of LA too. Because this is sort of what it's like to live in la, where everybody lives in their house and they don't really leave their house. And the houses are kind of dark and the curtains are closed and they're skulking around. And even though you think of this as this sunny paradise, that a lot of people, especially people with a lot of privilege, are just like, I don't really want to leave. Like, I'm just like, I'm doing my thing in my own house. Like, I don't want to go out tonight. You know, like, there is still that quality of every time they're in one of these houses, they're not bustling. The only time we see that is at these two parties.

[Craig]

It's also funny to have a bunch of counterculture people at this mansion, which is also very la.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's what I was saying.

[Craig]

They're committing to that. But they also have One rich friend that they're okay using their dad's house. Yeah, they're okay with that.

[Bill Simmons]

The LA in this movie is the LA that as a kid when I watched all the TV shows and I was like, man, it just seems great there. When they did, like, Battle of the Network stars in Malibu, like, what's that? That's on a cliff with an ocean. Like, what the hell is going on? Or Charlie's Angels, they'd be in the Hollywood Hills. Like, oh, that looks awesome.

[Sean Fennessey]

The only thing though is, like, it is smoggy, cloudy la. It's not always sunny, you know, like, especially the last shot when he's looking out, it's like, that's not the beach, you know, that's not Rosie. That's doom.

[Craig]

Where both of the offices, the views from the offices, the movie producer's office, Lester's office, are gorgeous. The views, the balcony. Is it Jill's house? I mean, Mark. Unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

One more break and then we're going to what stage?

[Cameron Crowe]

The best.

[Bill Simmons]

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This episode is brought to you by Spotify Portal for Backstage. Bet you're wondering, what's Portal?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well in.

[Bill Simmons]

It's an internal developer portal built to.

[Sean Fennessey]

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[Bill Simmons]

Try Spotify [e-mail] All right, before we do what stage? The best special category. The Steven Seagal shitting on himself award for most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're here with legendary filmmaker Cameron Crowe.

[Bill Simmons]

And you're doing this award. This is like, why am I here? Lee Grant walked off the film for two days during the scene when her character comes in after it seems like her daughter might have had sex with morbidity. And they argued about what her motivations would be and she kept playing it the same way and he kept telling her to play it differently and she got Fed up. And she left. Left and was gone for two days. And she came back and Warren said, basically, my bad. He's like, what do I know? I'm only a guy.

And that was it.

[Cameron Crowe]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

What would be your. Do you have a Steven Seagal shitting on himself award from any of your movies? Just out of curiosity, do you know this story?

[Cameron Crowe]

Tell me the story.

[Bill Simmons]

It's some Seagal movie. What was it like? Above the Law, One of those. Hard to Kill maybe There was some stunt guy in the set and the guy said he could choke anyone out. And Seagal's like, there's no way he could choke me out. And the guy's like, oh yeah. And he was like, all right. And it became this thing. And the guy chokes Seagal out and he shits all over himself. This is urban legend. Might not have happened. May have happened. But it had to become a category in the rewatchables that he got choked out and may have shit on himself. Steven Seagal. So anyway, I don't know if you have anything that good.

[Cameron Crowe]

Let me think about that.

[Bill Simmons]

Think about that. Think about that.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's a high bar.

[Bill Simmons]

Think about 2025. Lo sh.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

For the answer.

[Sean Fennessey]

So many unanswered questions.

[Cameron Crowe]

We'll get back to that.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean, what do you have? For what stage? The best.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love a Hollywood LA movie that is full of all these smart, self referential choices. Like we did the Player on this show. We've done a handful of movies and so casting Carrie Fisher, who's Debbie Reynolds daughter, and the way that the movie uses her and uses her as this kind of vessel for a new generation of sexual frankness. And Debbie Reynolds, of course, this representation of kind of like a pert and prim version of Hollywood history is super smart. There's like a series of versions like this. Like even just the idea of making a movie about a hairdresser and what the role of the hairdresser as a significant participant in not just making Hollywood movies, but Jay Sebring, who was tragically killed. John Peters, you know, who became a power player in the space.

[Bill Simmons]

Seems like those were the two people that kind of drove this.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then there was a third one whose name escapes me, but that I think Robert Towne talked about about somebody that he had met whose ex had cut hair and was also an inspiration for this and that. These. I don't think we see hairdressers in quite the same way culturally now. But it's fascinating because that is a really intimate act to be with someone by yourself touching them, cutting their hair, developing that physical relationship with them, and then the movie using that. And that being such a significant part of presentation in Hollywood. And the way that you look is so paramount to what you're doing. I just love all that in the scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Peters was. I mean, he had some big celebrity girlfriends and then eventually just became a producer, but it was all. Cause he was around these women all day who were attached to powerful people.

[Cameron Crowe]

I was kind of surprised in the movie when. I mean, because George seems to understand people's intimate feelings and stuff, and how when he's got his hands in their hair, they start talking about it and it feels like he listens, you know, and he knows the power of that. But then he kind of sells himself out at the end, saying, like, yeah, they all talk about the same thing. Some guy that fucked them over. And I'm like, george, come on, you. More than that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you think he's performing for Lester too, though?

[Cameron Crowe]

The way that he, like, shape shifts.

[Sean Fennessey]

For people too, like that. And that's a very, you know, LA sycophantic thing where you, like, blend into the moment so that you're not making too many waves. Like, you got to be like Lester in this moment, but when you're cutting a woman's hair, you got to be sympathetic to her experience. Like, that reveals a little bit of, like, the phoniness that is at the heart of the movie, too. I don't know. It's really like, to me, it feels very much like la, where, like, I am sincere every day, and I also feel full of shit. And that's a really hard way to be. But I do think the movie really taps into that.

[Cameron Crowe]

Well, I totally agree. Plus, remember, he puts that scene in where he's, like, got this woman's hair, like, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Almost looks like a second.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, he's just, like, shaking her around, like, whipping her back up, and then he wants to, like, give her away in the next scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, you know, that would've been a good. Hottest take is hairdressers. Were the original podcasters just doing a podcast all day with 10 guests? That is a hot take.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And getting. People might not know their secrets. Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Because they know they have to remember stuff about every person they're doing. They're bringing up conversation, they're finding out stuff. They. They probably have more information.

[Sean Fennessey]

When you're getting your haircut, are you telling the truth about your life?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I was. Because my. My person is the same person my mom goes to don't ask. So we. We spend half the time talking about my mom and how crazy my mom is. And it's just like she really knows about my life.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's how you communicate.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you have a. What stage the best?

[Cameron Crowe]

I do, I do. It's the cinematography of Laszlo Kovacs, I think, who I was lucky enough to work with on say Anything. He was the. He's the guy that shot say Anything. So don't think I wasn't aware that I was with the guy that did Shampoo and those movies. Exactly. And that was on our minds too. Definitely. But Laszlo was amazing for first time director. So helpful and so soulful. Had a great crew, really cared about all the textures. And the thing I want to shout out about this movie that I've always tried to learn from, and this is from Beatty, I think, because he does this in Bonnie and Clyde too. He knows what a screen kiss can do. It's better than sex in a movie if you get that kiss, right? Because. And here is Beatty's secret. And I learned this from watching his stuff, which is he gives you the moment before the kiss, the desire before the kiss, which I definitely went for in Jerry Maguire. It's the decision to make the kiss. The moment before they come in is where it's all decided. Because, you know, in fact, when the kiss happens, everything's gonna change. Beatty does not deny you that moment. He does it especially great in Bonnie and Clyde, and he does it great in this movie with Laszlo. Every kiss matters. And it's beautifully shot and it's very packed with emotion. And the kisses in this movie, Shampoo are great.

[Bill Simmons]

It's such a good point. Cause they're in the bathroom, he's doing her hair, and she's just staring at him with those big fuck me eyes. And then he's kind of doing her hair. But then every once in a while it's like, oh, something's going on. And you could just see it. And they're doing it for almost like 45 seconds. And you know it's gonna happen. It's a really hard thing to pull off in a movie.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's a hard thing. And Jerry Maguire, we really milked it, you know, because.

He'S with Renee in the doorway. Oh, yeah. And it's just. There's all kinds of longing going on. And then he breaks the strap and all this stuff. And it's just like we just wanted to live in that moment. And I think we have some Paul McCartney music that's kind of like, do do. Do in that actual moment. But no, I just thought. I thought, like, that's a thing that, like, is a little shining star. That happens a couple of times in Shampoo. It's the kisses.

[Bill Simmons]

I had a couple would sage the best. The Warren the Warden beta combo. Just like. I just love those two guys together. Lester's house. I'm just gonna give the Amanda Dobbins award for best piece of real estate. Just a really great house. There's like a tennis court. Unbelievable upstairs, like, things I just. I wanted to see, like, a whole Google Earth shot of how that house was laid out. We're great. I don't know where it is.

[Cameron Crowe]

We have to know where the house is.

[Bill Simmons]

Beverly Hills, maybe somewhere in there. Young Carrie Fisher is just hilarious. To just see her three years before she's about to become one of the most famous. Or two years before she's about to become one of the most famous actors in the world.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's her first part. She eats Beatty alive in that scene. I think, like, there is such boldness and she just does not care.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we could say it now. She gets the Dionne Waiters Award for bestie. Check.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's just.

[Bill Simmons]

That's done.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

This movie made me wonder, like, did the Star wars thing. It almost. I wish there was an alternate version of her career where there's no Star wars and she's just in.

[Sean Fennessey]

She has more like making all those.

[Bill Simmons]

Movies for 15 years, right? Absolutely.

[Cameron Crowe]

Absolutely. Great, great, great.

[Bill Simmons]

Because like, when Harry Met Sally. And she's the friend. The sarcastic kind of insecure friend. And she's just really good in it. It's like, why didn't. Weren't there six more of these for you? But I guess Star wars just eats you up when you're in that franchise.

[Cameron Crowe]

Jerry Maguire trivia. The. The line, you know, you're not show friends, you're show people. No. What is it? They're not. What is it?

[Sean Fennessey]

The.

[Cameron Crowe]

You're not. It's not show. It's not show friends. It's show business.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

I heard that from someone and I put it in the movie. And they came to me later and said, I actually stole that from Carrie Fisher. That's Carrie Fisher's line. Oh, wow. So thank you, Carrie Fisher. Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

I have for what's age the best. Having a late 60s Gumar. I just put that in for Sean.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

We always have Kumar jokes dating back to the Godfather. It was the head of the goomar era.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know that Lester Karp would have identified would have used the word.

[Bill Simmons]

Gumar to describe Goodfellas.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's really more.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe It's. Maybe the 90s.

[Sean Fennessey]

It could be like Ileana Douglas to be identified as that. Right. There's a different.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the soundtrack, which features two Beatles songs.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's crazy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably not getting those ten years later, but.

[Sean Fennessey]

Plus Manic Depression by Hendrix. Plus Mr. Soul.

[Bill Simmons]

Wouldn't it be nice? Mr.

[Cameron Crowe]

Soul is my favorite two Jefferson Airplane songs. Yeah, yeah. It's nuts.

[Sean Fennessey]

And the Beach Boys.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Opening and closing, we're up with the Sean Fantasy award for stealth homage. That gives every movie nerd a criteria. Orgasm. It's another category.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cameron. There's not a lot in here. So I went with film director William Castle, world renowned for his work making experiential moviegoing experiences for scary movies in the 50s and 60s. He shows up in the movie as Sid Roth, who's the guy who propositions Jackie at the 1968 Republican Party. Oh, and he is a legendary showman in movie history who is very. There's a Joe Dante movie called Matinee that is loosely based on him and the movies that he made. And yeah, that's an interesting choice for a guy like that who's always trying to sell you on something to be the guy at that part.

[Bill Simmons]

You're saying we have a great shot. Gordo award for most cinematic shot.

I personally would go for the high shot. When they end up on the cliff and they have the high shot to begin with and you can see all of LA and you know something's going to go down. I just think it's a really cool one.

[Sean Fennessey]

I had the same last shot. Best shot.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, I would go with that for sure. Where is that? That location? Do we know?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I researched it and couldn't figure it out, but it's gotta be somewhere like up in the hills, like near Mulholland Drive or somewhere in there, that whole vortex. Sean, you have a flex category.

Did you already do it?

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I didn't. You already mentioned it. Well, I'm gonna do a different one then. So my flex category.

Is the I used to fuck guys like you in prison award for craziest quote.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's good.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was gonna do. I don't fuck anybody for money. I do it for fun, which you already mentioned. But what if it was? I just knew. I just wish I knew what the hell I was living for. You can lose it all, you know. I mean, you can lose it no matter who you are. What's the sense of having it all market went down 10 points last week. Goddamn Lyndon Johnson. Maybe Nixon will be better. What's the difference? They're all a bunch of jerks. That's Lester at the end of the movie.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think just doing the thesis of the movie. Yeah. Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

A thesis that might apply in 2025.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure does.

[Bill Simmons]

We have the Butch's Girlfriend Award for weak link of the film. I'd like to nominate the I'd like to suck his cock scene. It's just so crazy. And Beatty apparently fought for it to be in there. But I almost think it's too crazy. I think she was too classy to do that. It always bothered me with this movie. Interesting would be my take. I might be wrong.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think you're supposed to believe she's very drunk.

[Bill Simmons]

But then an hour later she's fine.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I wouldn't say she's the best drunk acting actress. Julie Christie. At least not in this. She starts off. What does she start off with? A Dubonnet? Isn't that what she's drinking at the start of it? She's had a few.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruise from Few Good Men to Jerry Maguire. Got way better at being drunk in a scene.

[Cameron Crowe]

Big time.

[Bill Simmons]

Cause Few Good Men was not.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's really true. That's really true.

[Bill Simmons]

Was not as strong. We always had a theory. He had never had a drink before. So he was pretending how to act when he had drink. But Jerry Maguire, he had a drink.

[Craig]

How do you direct somebody being drunk?

[Cameron Crowe]

He had a poker. So he had, like a prop. That was kind of helping him. I know.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good question. How do you direct somebody to be drunk? Glasses.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's really hard. It's really hard. They kind of either have it or they don't. And if they try too hard, which somebody. They usually do that. You just have to scale it back and scale it back so that it's just.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're like. That was really good.

[Cameron Crowe]

Just get liquid.

[Bill Simmons]

Try one more.

[Cameron Crowe]

Get back.

[Bill Simmons]

10%.

[Cameron Crowe]

Helps just to get liquors. Usually they're just like, ah. But it's just like, get.

[Sean Fennessey]

Get.

[Cameron Crowe]

Like you're underwater a little bit. Is good.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's good.

[Cameron Crowe]

Kind of like doing a hula with it.

[Bill Simmons]

So who's the best drunk scene actor of all time? I mean, Dudley Moore was drunk during all of Arthur.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know how he did that.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's not really. Well, not acting.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he wasn't acting.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, we talked about Newman in the Verdict, but it's that like that. That sullen.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's almost like it's dark. It's like entrenched in your body. Drunk.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's not the. Should we or should we not follow?

[Bill Simmons]

The harder one is like the romcom where somebody got too drunk and starts yelling at our hero.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's usually when it goes really wrong.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cameron is really good in My Best Friend's Wedding. That's some good drunk acting.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Cameron Crowe]

I think Bill Nighy in Love actually is pretty good. He could pretty liquidy.

Especially on. What is it, Christmas Eve when he shows back up to his manager and you're not sure if they're gonna have sex or something.

[Bill Simmons]

A couple. What's aged the worst? Other than some of the words. The Paul Simon soundtrack I wrote down before you even mention it. It's just corny and weird. Strange.

[Sean Fennessey]

It seems like he did write a bunch of songs, at least at that time that ended up on Still Crazy after all these years.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Cameron Crowe]

But you know what happens? They write songs for the movies that ask them for a song and when the song turns out too good, they keep it. They don't give you that song.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. They give you the fourth best song.

[Cameron Crowe]

There's even a thing in the Bruce Springsteen movie where he writes a song for Donna Summer and it's. Is it I'm on Fire or what is it? Yeah, it's like I'm on Fire. And John Landau in the movie goes like, I'm sure glad you didn't give that song to Donna Summer.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, whoa.

[Sean Fennessey]

Truth.

[Cameron Crowe]

Truth being told.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, honestly, you could have done that with Fever. Don't. You could have just said, fuck it. This is a real song. I'm giving this to Pearl Jam.

[Cameron Crowe]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

Give me a writer credit.

[Cameron Crowe]

I think maybe not too late. I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

If Pearl Jam ever sang Fever Dog in concert, what would.

[Sean Fennessey]

You would explode into molecules. What would happen?

[Bill Simmons]

I just think it'd be really good. I just think there's certain songs that, like, they would have been great. There's a couple Springsteen songs. They would have crushed that. Cameron, we always. Sean and I always joke about when you own stock early in somebody, you're the all time with Pearl. Jean.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. PJ stock. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He was like. He had Nvidia stock in 2015 with Pearl. Chip you. They weren't even a band yet.

[Cameron Crowe]

Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

They were Mookie Blaylock. When you had them in singles.

[Cameron Crowe]

They were indeed Mookie Block.

[Bill Simmons]

You were like the original stockholder we put.

[Cameron Crowe]

We put our chips down on that.

[Bill Simmons]

Unbelievable. It's so funny that they're still together too. Of all the bands from that era.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. Who. Who knew. And Alison Chains. I mean, though they've. You know.

[Bill Simmons]

Sadly, the only other. What Sage. The worst is Carrie Fisher did say years later that that Beatty tried to. Tried to get it going with her, which is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, man, 17 four times, she said.

[Cameron Crowe]

And is it true that Debbie Reynolds, like made sure that she wasn't lit seductively?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She. She had. Debbie had some notes and she tried.

[Sean Fennessey]

To change scripts and she. She couldn't get him to change.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'm sure she was like, oh, this is.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think they wanted to change. Wanna. To wanna screw. And they couldn't get that over.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Ruffalo. Hannah Rubyk Partridge overacting award. I gotta bring it up. But Warren Beatty, when he's getting broken up with at the end kind of dials it up a little bit with the crying thing. It's a little out of the comfort zone. I can't say it 100%.

[Cameron Crowe]

I'm with you on that, but please don't.

[Craig]

He keeps saying honey over and over.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's like the fake true crime cry.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I just don't think he would actually cry in real life.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I also had the Jay Robinson, the guy who's the. The real owner of the salon, you know, who's like clear still running number two behind Norman. Yeah, Norman.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. Norman pushes.

[Sean Fennessey]

He turns it up a little bit.

[Cameron Crowe]

Although it's great when he goes nickel and dime. You gotta learn to nickel and dime, George.

[Bill Simmons]

So we have the CR Things. Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford hottest take award. What do you think of that? Luke Wilson has been Harrison Ford's career. Chris Ryan's the best hottest take in 400 plus rewatchables episodes.

[Sean Fennessey]

I almost fell out of my chair.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's fantastic. And it's true. And it's true. Just.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Cameron Crowe]

I can't tell you confirming it. I feel that.

[Bill Simmons]

There you go.

[Cameron Crowe]

Deeply in my soul. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Mine is for this. Sean already did his. Did you have one, Cameron?

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, it's that it's the. The least rewatchable actually of the three picture run that Ashby was on.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's fair. Even though it's probably the most successful.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. So it kind of hurts me to say that in a way because I love shampoo so much. But. But when I go back over the other two, I kind of find myself gravitating towards the last detail or in the right mood. Harold and Mot, of course.

[Sean Fennessey]

Funny we didn't say this was the number three movie at the box office this year.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's crazy.

[Sean Fennessey]

$60 million.

[Cameron Crowe]

That is crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

Good for Warren Beatty.

[Cameron Crowe]

How did Last Detail do?

[Bill Simmons]

Not nearly as well.

[Sean Fennessey]

Over 15. Much smaller.

[Bill Simmons]

My hottest take, I think Goldie hawn in this mid-70s era was the single most adorable actress of all time. And it's different than prettiest, sexiest, all that. Just like adorable. Where every human being was like, oh, she seems cool. Oh, she's so cute. Or every guy would have had a crush on her. If you're on a movie set with her, you're just going to have a crush on her period. I can't think of other people have swam in these circles, but I don't think as well. Which leads to my second hottest take. 15 years too soon.

She misses the whole rom com blow up era from 89 on, starting when Harry Met Sally.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Meg Ryan doesn't exist. Meg Ryan's working down the street. Goldie's taking every part from her for 10 years.

[Sean Fennessey]

Meg Ryan's working.

[Bill Simmons]

Meg Ryan's gone. Meg Ryan's delivering mails.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. She works at Dunkin Donuts.

[Bill Simmons]

She's marketing. She doesn't exist. She's gone. But Goldie Hawn, I just think they didn't have the right kind of. She, they had great movies, but they didn't have these movies that just would have kept her going.

[Sean Fennessey]

She kind of gets it back. She comes back with like First Wives, First Love and Banger Sisters which is like kind of in the same zone. But she's not, not quite the rom.

[Cameron Crowe]

Com, but she misses that sweet, sweet sweet spot.

[Bill Simmons]

She just could have been in My Best Friend's Wedding type of movies for 10 solid years.

[Cameron Crowe]

Killing it for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

I watched Private Benjamin recently and she was. That movie's really good and she's incredible in that movie and it's a really weird movie that they just wouldn't make it.

[Cameron Crowe]

She's incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Casting when I couldn't find any. That's that guy were Johnny Bill as Tony Bill. Tony Bill as Johnny Pope.

[Sean Fennessey]

He was an Academy award winning producer on the film the Sting. So he was, he was not. He was a very well known person in Hollywood. But he occasionally acted. Didn't act very often.

[Cameron Crowe]

He loved Tony Bill.

[Sean Fennessey]

He looks like.

Warren Beatty on a bad day. You know what I mean? Like he looks just enough like him where you're like, yeah, this guy should.

[Bill Simmons]

Make a party extra.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Jack Warden thinks He's getting it on with George.

[Sean Fennessey]

Come on.

[Cameron Crowe]

You know, he also has a period mustache that kind of is both timeless and caught in the cedar.

[Sean Fennessey]

But it's like if Beatty was in disguise or something in the movie, you know, we're like, why is his brother here?

[Cameron Crowe]

I love how annoyed he is when Lester gets in the car. Like after the Bistro.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wanna get a drink?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Oh, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Recasting couch. Director City. So can I just. I think this movie is very well cast, but can I just offer you for Johnny Pope? Sadly. And then we just gave him another one.

[Cameron Crowe]

Do this, do this.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I just throw John Cazale in there for the hell of it?

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, that's pretty great.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's just grab his time for two weeks.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. And he could do Ascot Commercial Director. You know, I saw him do it as Fredo.

[Bill Simmons]

He played like five parts in this movie. Just get in there. You did your flex half ass Internet research. So you mentioned the Paul Simon stuff. Paul Simon did write a title song called have a Good Time. No, that Beatty said no. So we scrapped it and he put it on the Steel Crazy after all these Years album. You mentioned all the Debbie Reynolds stuff and we did everything else for that. So Apex Mountain is a category. We talk about when somebody had the most juice they were ever going to have in their career. And I actually think Beatty is. This is a yes for him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Because this movie, he owned a lot of the back end of it. He put a lot of time into it. It's a huge success. And I just think he can do whatever he wants after this. Not that he couldn't have before, but this is the best example of that. This sets up Reds. This sets up everything. He wants it all, for sure, but is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is he even higher on the mountain and had Heaven Can Wait or at Reds? I don't know, like after Heaven Can Wait or after Reds. Is he. Is he even. Has he ascended even further?

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe it's Heaven Can Wait. I don't know. Could be.

[Cameron Crowe]

Is it Heaven Can Wait how many years after this movie? Three years. And in between is he's turning down stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

He was.

[Sean Fennessey]

What is the fortune before or after this?

[Bill Simmons]

He's producing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The most interesting one he turned down was Hardcore with Paul Schrader, a movie we've done on the Rewatchable. So turn it off. Turn it off.

We've done that one. I don't know. I can't see Warren Beatty. He didn't want to have a daughter. That's why he turned it down.

[Cameron Crowe]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, I'm too young and handsome to have a daughter, so can it be? My wife goes to newborn and they're like, nah, that's not. It's got to be teenage daughter.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

So he.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, he has shampoo and the Fortune in 75, and then Heaven Can Wait in 78 and Red's in 81.

[Cameron Crowe]

Some reason, I feel by the time of Heaven Can Wait, Beatty is a little less like feral Beatty, you know, where he's just like in the culture. Heaven Can Wait is kind of like, you know, like, pass a nice romantic comedy turn. But he doesn't have his teeth in it the way he does in Shampoo.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's this. The more I think about it, I agree. Julie Christie. Obviously not, because she did Darling and Dr. Zhivago in the same year, which is like pretty good. Hall of Fame, Apex Mountain year.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pretty good.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like one of the biggest movies of the 60s and a movie where she won an Oscar. You're not topping that. Goldie Hawn.

[Cameron Crowe]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Robert Towne. This is a pretty nice run for him. It's got Chinatown and this back to back.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm an astrologist.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Jack Warden. No, it's somewhere in the late 70s. Old School Hollywood scenery in a famous Hollywood movie. It's in play. Triumph motorcycles as a character in a movie.

[Cameron Crowe]

Definitely, definitely.

[Bill Simmons]

And then late 60s party scenes.

Trying to think of a better one.

[Cameron Crowe]

This was the most sprawling for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna say no on party scenes in general because. Not just because.

[Sean Fennessey]

What about the Peter Sellers movie the Party?

[Cameron Crowe]

The answer for yes. It's about a party call.

[Bill Simmons]

Party scenes all time. Apex Mountain. I'm not just saying that because he's Project X. I'm not even gonna look at him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, Project X.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's number one. Russell Hammond in Topeka, Kansas.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah. Golden God.

[Bill Simmons]

Getting a better party scene.

[Cameron Crowe]

Thanks, guys.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to see the stat. I'm not. I'm intentionally not looking at him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you think that was a good party?

[Cameron Crowe]

Which one? The Topeka party.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Seemed like a good party. Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Everybody's having a good time.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what happened in the 70s.

[Cameron Crowe]

Participating with them.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's like he's one of them. He's there with, like, Aaron when the snake gets eaten or the mouse gets eaten by the snake.

[Bill Simmons]

Next category.

[Cameron Crowe]

And it's a 1984 thing. You know when he says, like, in 11 years it's going to be 1984. Think about that. Think about that.

[Bill Simmons]

This next category we have anyway, but this will be really fun with you here. Cruiser Hanks for the lead part.

Who's winning the career total? Is Hanks ahead?

[Sean Fennessey]

There's only one rational answer. Hanks is currently ahead of the game with Cameron here. There's only one rational answer.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's definitely Cruz. It's the role I don't know if Cruz ever would have played, although he did do Eyes Wide Shut, so maybe all bets are off.

[Sean Fennessey]

Frank TJ Mackie is the closest.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Where this collision between, like, I'm a sexual God and all this vulnerability.

[Bill Simmons]

It's definitely Cruz.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's definitely Cruz.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

I think he could have done it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Hank trying is funny. That would be amusing.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's a different.

[Sean Fennessey]

Totally different flavor.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if he could pull up the haircut. His hair's like mine. It just goes up.

[Cameron Crowe]

I don't know if I want to see the hair dryer stuck in his pants, you know, I don't know Scorsese.

[Bill Simmons]

Or Spielberg to direct.

Scorsese. I've got to. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played?

[Sean Fennessey]

Lester.

[Bill Simmons]

Lester had that as well.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's a dream to think about.

[Bill Simmons]

That's one of the great Philip Seymour Hoffman stories, is his story. You had him for two days.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. Well, no, I think he was sick.

[Bill Simmons]

Or you had him for a week.

[Cameron Crowe]

We had him for a week, yes. He had the flu. That's why he's, like, a little red in the face and stuff and was, like, kind of coughing and his energy was low, but completely brought it.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you know, as you're filming it, like. Yeah. He announced, like, a legendary film somewhere else.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you know you were changing my life when you were making those scenes in that movie?

[Cameron Crowe]

I kind of did, because it was the first scene we filmed, and he was on the street with. With Patrick Fugate, and they were doing the scene where I was walking with the real Lester Bangs. And so I was watching, you know, him do the very thing that I had done with Lester, and I was listening to it on the headset, and he sounded like Lester. And I had this moment where I wanted to call up David Geffen and just say, talk to him about it, because I felt like it was such a gift that I had been given to be able to do this in continuity and everything. So they got David Geffen on the phone and said, hello. And I go, david Geffen, it's Cameron here. I just did my first scene, and I just like, I can't believe that I'm here on the same street where it all happened, and we're filming with the same people, you know, on film. That felt exactly the same. I can't. But how did I get here anyway? Goes Jerry Maguire.

[Sean Fennessey]

Hung up.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God.

[Cameron Crowe]

How's that for belief?

[Bill Simmons]

That's right. To the chase.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. No, it's like, unbelievable. Let's speak truth. And. And I'll be gone.

[Bill Simmons]

So out of all the parts that are most famous, which is the one that you felt like you had to get the actor perfectly for the part, just for your own sanity. Lester Banks.

[Cameron Crowe]

No, it was Patrick Fugan.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. William Miller.

[Cameron Crowe]

William Miller.

[Sean Fennessey]

Gotta be.

[Cameron Crowe]

But followed closely by Lester, because we saw a lot of people for Lester. And Gail Levin, the casting director, said at the very beginning, you're gonna see everybody in town, and you're gonna end up with Philip Seymour Hoffman. And it happened exactly like that. And he said. I. I talked to him, and I said to him on the phone, like, please play the part. He goes, okay. And. And I said, can you come and do, like, you know, a couple of weeks of rehearsals to do it? And he was like, I don't think you're gonna need that. I'm like, well, I knew this guy. It was very important to me. He's like a mentor. I gotta get it right. And he goes, you won't need that much part, but that's time. That much time with the part. But, like, I'll come out. So I said, thank you so much. And he showed up. He came to the office. He didn't have the flu yet, but he was. He was in a. In a pretty good mood. And he sat down and he goes, well, let's just do the scenes. And he did all the scenes back to back. And I said, okay, we're rehearsed. This is great. He was there 45 minutes, and he was back to the airport to fly home. That's how dialed in he was on Lester. But, like, kind enough to know that that was what was going to happen, but still came out on the promise of two weeks. Then when he showed up, he had the flu. And so, like, battled through it, but it gave him a quality that I think was kind of corrosive in a really cool way. He would have brought.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he seemed, like, beaten down. So you kind of needed him to be physically sick.

[Cameron Crowe]

And. And I. When we got to the scene where he's supposed to say, you know, like, we're the uncool and stuff, I always saw that as, like, a victory scene. Like, you know, we're the uncool. It's like that, that Todd Rundgren picture that's on his album something, Anything, where he's like, this was in my mind. And it was Phil Hoffman that said, like, why don't we do the scene? Like we're the only two people awake in the world, me and William Miller. We do a quiet and I'll be sitting and. But yeah, it was spectacular.

[Bill Simmons]

Then you cut the scene where he's like, william, how's the peeping? How's the peeping? Didn't make sense. Didn't make sense.

[Cameron Crowe]

Why? Why? Why? But yes, Lester. He would have been the Lester of, of our current time.

[Bill Simmons]

Have you met his son? No. Cooper?

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, no, I, I, I dig him, but I have. Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we have, we have some mutual friends.

[Cameron Crowe]

Excellent.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's very cool about his dad. He's just like, you know, and he's a really good actor, but he's just like, ask me anything about my dad. Like, my dad was awesome. Like, I'm totally cool talking about it, but I love that he's a really good actor. All right, picking it.

Would Felicia have been more upset that George probably just fucked her 17 year old daughter? I feel like, yes, I suspect, yes. So maybe Beatty was correct.

[Sean Fennessey]

So you too have notes on Lee Grant's performance.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just trying to, I can't judge the 1968. What was going on there.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's a case to be made that there's like a shell shock protectionist quality that goes into play when something like that happens, where you're just like, block it out till.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretend it didn't happen.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, what do you have for picking nits? What's your biggest one?

[Cameron Crowe]

Just like the thing that doesn't quite work.

[Bill Simmons]

The thing like, come on, after you've seen a movie seven times and you're like, all right, that, blah, blah, blah.

[Cameron Crowe]

I had a note. What was it? It was, yeah, it was like, I just got confused whose house the party was and stuff. So that to me was like, why do they all end up there? And I don't qu why Lester is upset to go there. And it's kind of supposed to be his house, so I kind of got tripped up there. But that may not be the most stellar choice. But that kind of rubbed at me. One of the things that I was curious about is like, are we supposed to think that she slept with Johnny Pope on the night of the party, Jill, or did she never.

[Bill Simmons]

It's ambiguous.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's ambiguous. Beatty Accuses her of it or kind of hints at it, I think. But are we supposed to think it happened?

[Sean Fennessey]

Or he, like, asks, come into the house, but she says no, which indicates that he would follow her the house because they had been intimate, but we don't really know what happened.

[Cameron Crowe]

And is she sleeping with him to. To get the part, or does she have more agency than that? And she's just gonna be who she is, man. And I don't know. It's a little. It may not be the perfect answer, but.

[Sean Fennessey]

How do you get a loan when you're a hairdresser to open a salon in 1968? What do you got to present to the bank? What's a good. Like, what's the process there? Like, do you bring in clients and say, like, these clients are coming with me? Like, how. What. What was George's plan?

[Bill Simmons]

That's why they sh.

[Sean Fennessey]

But if you were actually trying to do that, how would you do? You probably just need an independent investor. You can't get a bank to do it. But just this whole process of pursuing that is very funny. Where he thinks he's going to be able to get this, and he's just like, just trust me, bro. I got clients. That whole thing is all a little squishy as well.

[Cameron Crowe]

I was a little squishy on how low the ask was. It's like 10,000 or something. Lester has to really think about it. It's like, does this guy really have money? Or is he even in 1968? Or is he a fraud?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Yeah. How rich is he?

[Bill Simmons]

I have two for the party. This will be a good example of how picking nits works. One is pretty stealth.

The valets just get the cars way too quick. It's a huge party. Cars are part. You're out at that party. You're out there for 20 minutes. Other people are out, people are smoking. You're talking to people at the valet show. These cars are ready, but this is the big red one.

How does the motorcycle get to the last party? We see him in a car with Julie Christie going to the party. Then the second thing, but he leaves the last party on his triumph motorcycle. How?

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

He didn't take the motorcycle there.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Cameron Crowe]

Nice call, man.

[Sean Fennessey]

Should we delete this episode? What the hell? This movie is null and void. Oh, my gosh.

[Cameron Crowe]

Wow.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe he made a call and someone brought it over.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, since Cameron's here, we have to do a couple picking nits for Jerry Maguire, please.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, gosh.

[Bill Simmons]

Why would Denver.

[Sean Fennessey]

Don't look.

[Bill Simmons]

Why Would Denver want to trade up for Frank Cushman in 1996 when they had John Elway? Where was your sports consultant on that one?

[Cameron Crowe]

Can we travel back in time and just get in a room and work this way?

[Bill Simmons]

What did they need another quarterback?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, maybe they were thinking about, you know, how to continue the legacy.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guys, it was a parallel universe.

[Sean Fennessey]

Please. Okay?

[Cameron Crowe]

All things are possible. Jesus, don't you want to live there?

[Bill Simmons]

Dorothy had. Dorothy had a young kid in health benefits. Is she really quitting? She's got a young child.

[Sean Fennessey]

This did come up in our discussion of the film, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pretty risky move. But she was inspired, right?

[Bill Simmons]

She was inspired. Inspiration.

[Cameron Crowe]

I will go with you. And this is. This is a. This is very close to the theme of the movie, you guys. This is like you. The people you don't expect who show up.

[Bill Simmons]

That. That's a good.

[Cameron Crowe]

When you need somebody, it's people you planned on being there for. You don't show up. And that's usually how it works.

[Sean Fennessey]

When you were suspended by espn, where was I? Right by your side.

[Bill Simmons]

You were.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was right by your side.

[Bill Simmons]

You didn't care about health benefits.

[Sean Fennessey]

I did not.

[Cameron Crowe]

Warren Beatty calling the night of the LA Times story. It's like, fuck, where did that guy come from? All my friends silent. It's like, this is why Dorothy makes that move. She is that character.

[Craig]

Sean, what if you had a chance child?

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Would I have followed Bill? Yes. No, I would not.

[Bill Simmons]

He's producing NBA Countdown.

This was the big one. We've argued about this in the movie. How he got back to the. To the divorced women's support group after the Monday Night Football game.

[Sean Fennessey]

How long had that meeting been going on?

[Bill Simmons]

So the Monday Night football game starts 9:07 Eastern 1995. 7:07 Phoenix time. Or is that 8:07 Phoenix time? Time said one hour back.

[Cameron Crowe]

One hour.

[Bill Simmons]

One hour, one hour back. 7:07. Game ends 10:30. Press conference. Airport pre 9 11.

[Cameron Crowe]

Though the time travel happens in the airport. 11:30, that's where the splice happens.

[Bill Simmons]

Lands in LAX. So the divorced women's group is still going at one in the morning. Okay, so that. So we just have goodbye to that.

[Cameron Crowe]

Problems, man.

[Sean Fennessey]

They got to work through some.

[Bill Simmons]

Is their coffee tired?

[Cameron Crowe]

You can tell.

[Bill Simmons]

Is there coffee at that point? Is it like 11:30? Like, I need a little caffeine.

[Cameron Crowe]

By the time he gets there, my mom is counseling everybody in the room. It's like, you know, all their stories are gone. And she's just talking about neural Pathways and stuff. I mean, I like your close attention to this, but, you know, see, this.

[Bill Simmons]

Is what we do.

[Cameron Crowe]

I mean, considered through this stuff, there's intentionality.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The biggest. The best one of all the ones we just mentioned, though, is the triumph motorcycle is not a. At that last party. It's just not just one Oscar. Only give one Oscar to anything in the movie. What do you give it to?

[Cameron Crowe]

Can I give it to the guy that does the Indian chant at the Beastro?

[Bill Simmons]

Best supporting actor.

[Cameron Crowe]

I just want to give it to him. Or the woman who's next to. To Jackie when she's talking about, like, wanting to suck his.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

The woman reaction at the table.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Lee Grant won it, so I guess that's the answer. That's our answer.

[Cameron Crowe]

Answer.

[Bill Simmons]

If somebody actually won the.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would make a case for town. I think the script is interesting.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably an answerable questions. We already did all mine. Unless you guys have any other ones.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, did George ever get a salon? Did Lester pay for it? Did Lester and Jackie make it?

[Cameron Crowe]

Oh, that's a definite no. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You think they made it?

[Cameron Crowe]

No, no, no. I'm saying I'm with. They broke up. But how long? And did she move on to another situation?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I think she found somebody else who had some money.

[Cameron Crowe]

And I'm with you.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe a little younger.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's what happens. Does George get the shop at all?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna say he's too much of a.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's a flake.

[Bill Simmons]

He's too much of a flake. I don't think he could run a business.

[Cameron Crowe]

Did anybody talk about what happens to George? Any of the filmmakers?

[Bill Simmons]

Bounced around a few hair salons. I think there might have been some late 70s cocaine.

[Cameron Crowe]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

A past for him. Try this. The stuff's great.

[Cameron Crowe]

No tragic end.

[Bill Simmons]

Two years later, he's just getting fired from his third salon.

[Cameron Crowe]

I got you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think it goes kind of badly for George.

What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie? I think the Triumph is eligible.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what I chose. I am not a motorcycle person. In fact, I don't want to get on a motorcycle. I don't want to ride in one. I'm scared of them. And yet I want the motorcycle. That's how cool that motorcycle is.

[Bill Simmons]

The brown leather jacket I think is in the running, too. The jacket he has for the one he whips into the garbage.

[Cameron Crowe]

I'm kind of disappointed about the jacket.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't like it?

[Sean Fennessey]

Really?

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, I just. I didn't know if it was iconic enough. It seemed kind of thin and shiny in a way. Like, that's just me. A little cheap. A little cheap. And maybe that's good character.

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

What about the blow dryer?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's a really good craft.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's good.

[Cameron Crowe]

It depends. It's like, do you want a usable prop? You know, do you want something like the Triumph where you can just like, ride around on it? Is the Triumph just for show? Do you want?

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's for show.

[Cameron Crowe]

Put it right in the living room. Yeah, got it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like it's this should category should be modified a little bit to be the rewatchable studio prop from the movie. What could you put in a glass case in this room?

[Bill Simmons]

Like.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. What would be in the Kush spot? Yeah, yeah. Kush corner. Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

I would go with the earring just because it's like.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's good.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's like the scene in the apartment, you know, like the. The cracked mirror. It's just everything kind of spins on it, and it's just. It's just there.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you aware of the memorabilia auction rise for Hollywood stuff?

[Cameron Crowe]

You must be a little bit.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, like the Shawshank Bible going for like $450,000.

[Cameron Crowe]

Damn. I didn't know about that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, like, shit's. Shit's going down, people.

[Cameron Crowe]

How much can we get? Star wars coat.

[Bill Simmons]

Greg's excited in the corner. He's like, wait, what? He keeps.

[Cameron Crowe]

You keep it all. The Penny Lane coat. Could we get some?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I think.

[Sean Fennessey]

Are you asking us to bid on it or.

[Cameron Crowe]

No, I'm just, like, asking just like.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I'm like.

From Almost Famous. Wouldn't it be the Russell Hammond guitar used in the concert scene probably had the highest.

[Cameron Crowe]

Lloyd's boombox, maybe something like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Lloyd's boom box. You don't have that to you.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's in my garage.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, my God.

[Cameron Crowe]

Come on. Don't worry.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God.

[Sean Fennessey]

Don't sell it. Don't sell it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Never. Never. I never saw that stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

That's like. Yeah, that's up there.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you see it came back that it was memed again when Cusack was at the Cubs game. Did you see? And he had his arms up and people were putting the boombox up.

[Cameron Crowe]

I'm surprised.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's eternal, man.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's so amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

My daughter said this era is coming back. The Lloyd Dobler era is coming back.

[Sean Fennessey]

God willing.

[Bill Simmons]

It's her. Her theory. That show Summer I turn pretty on Amazon. Everyone Loves this character Conrad and he's a big like, he's like a quarter yearner person. And. And my daughter who's 20, was like, this is. Women want to be courted. Like nobody courts us anymore. And that's why we like Conrad. And I was like, it sounds like you would have like Lloyd Dobler.

[Cameron Crowe]

Lloyd is the only one that I would write and have thought about writing more about, you know, more of the.

[Sean Fennessey]

More of his story.

[Bill Simmons]

Lloyd now he owns a series of Muay Thai studios in. In Northern California or any number of eras.

[Cameron Crowe]

Just. He's so much fun to write for. Write that character. I loved it. I love it still. That's the old guys filmed by Laszlo Kovacs. The boombox scene filmed by the guy that filmed Shampoo.

[Bill Simmons]

Also a very important song choice scene indeed.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. Only one song worked and we did try everything.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Coach Finack wore best. Life lesson. Everyone sells out. Out. I don't know if I agree with.

[Sean Fennessey]

Doesn't have to be that way.

[Cameron Crowe]

But.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's the lesson of the movie or the theme, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We're all going to sell out at some point.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, it's kind of like an acid burn takeaway in the year that Jaws comes out and kind of changes movies forever. You know that like, you could say this is the ar. The highest arc of being able to end a movie where everyone loses.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then did you have anything different?

[Cameron Crowe]

Just that Jill is the only one that claws her way out of that.

So optimism and hope.

Does triumph in some way even in this kind of circumstance.

[Bill Simmons]

So Jill represents the Jimmy Carter presidency or I'm just.

[Cameron Crowe]

Or keep going. Yeah. Sounds like give me more or what? Didn't Towne say Jill is his attempt to write what a 70s woman was going to be, you know, who had more control over herself and was able to make her own choices and not be so dependent on finances or men. And that's his attempt to like have a little bit of a happy ending to it. So I kind of go with that as a mini lesson. There's a way out of this sellout generation.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have for double feature choice?

[Sean Fennessey]

I wrote the Parallax View down as basically just like the two sides of the baby Persona where there's not a single laugh in the Parallax View the whole time you're like, what the fuck?

[Bill Simmons]

And it's right. The movie. Right before this movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. And it's right before this. Interesting.

[Cameron Crowe]

Joyce. Cool. Joyce. I went Rules of the Game, which I think was, you know.

A father of this movie, in a way, the interrelationships, the kind of wistful feeling that Jean Renoir, the director who acts in Rules of the Game, has. I would love to watch the two of them together.

[Bill Simmons]

I had Nashville. I just went 1975, sprawling.

[Cameron Crowe]

That's cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

Two different areas, both political, both full of music.

[Bill Simmons]

And then who won the movie? It's gotta be Beatty.

[Sean Fennessey]

Beatty, yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Beatty all the way.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. This is where we asked producer Craig, who hasn't seen a lot of these movies, especially before the 2000s, what he thought.

[Cameron Crowe]

Loved it.

[Craig]

Totally loved it. I'm increasing. Starting to love all the movies from this era, but the charisma.

[Bill Simmons]

We've corrupted him.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The charisma of all the actors in this movie just jumps off the screen so much. I also just appreciate that this movie's trying to. Both trying to say something and is also just a good time and very enjoyable. And it feels like more and more now. Movies that are trying to say something have to be serious or depressing. And a lot of your movies say something, but are fun Hanks and are enjoyable and laid back. And I don't know. This movie is just so unrecognizable to everything that's going on today in so many ways. Like, we talked about la, but I mean, just the fact that it's such a small movie, such a small story. And it made $60 million, which is the equivalent of 360 today. It made 300 million, adjusted for inflation domestic, which is the same that Jurassic the new Jurassic park made this year.

[Sean Fennessey]

Year.

[Craig]

Like, it is just so remarkable that a movie this small can do what it did back then. But, yeah, I just loved it across the board. It's amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

So it was both small but had major stars in it, which always helps.

[Cameron Crowe]

This is a really hard thing to do. It's. And it's also really true to make a point and sugarcoat it enough in, like, charisma, great casting and all that stuff where you just. It goes down so easy. And it's not about. You must remember this. Which does make those movies so serious. Yeah. I love it when you realize later how much was packed into the shit that made you laugh.

[Bill Simmons]

Sometimes it's good to have major stars in a movie like this, and other times it isn't. Like I was like the. The Sliding Doors. Almost Famous was. If Brad Pitt's Russell Hammond, is it a better or a worse movie? Right. And that almost happened. And I actually think it's better that he wasn't. Even though I love Brad Pitt.

[Sean Fennessey]

But in this case, it's so important that Beatty, who everyone knew at the time to be a ladies man, to make a movie about being this. And he never made a movie like this. So the idea of him leveraging that Persona for everybody was genius.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, Burt Reynolds couldn't have been this.

[Sean Fennessey]

He could have done it. It just wouldn't have been.

[Bill Simmons]

It would have been. It wouldn't have. It would have felt off.

[Cameron Crowe]

For sure. It would have felt off. I have a question for you guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

What is the best use of celebrity in a movie? Like. Like big stars. What's your favorite use of big stars when they're slightly off brand or when they go full into brand?

[Bill Simmons]

We talk about this a lot. The thing I always say is every once in a while, I want the A lister to be an A lister. Just like do like in Cruz Cruz. Jerry Maguire is one of the ones we mentioned. Right. He's like an interview the vampire the year before dyed hair. He's in Far and Away and.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And sometimes people just need to be the person we fell in love with in a movie. In a movie. It sounds like, stupid, but I don't think it's stupid. But just every few years, be the person that we love.

[Cameron Crowe]

Be the person.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I always think of Denzel as an interesting example of this because he very rarely transforms. He's always Denzel. He doesn't dye his hair blonde. And his movies are varying quality. Right. And when they're good, they're the best movies of all time. And when they're bad, they can be pretty bad. And yet there's something always very watchable about him. You know, you'll watch him kind of make any. I've watched every equalizer mov and I really enjoy myself watching them. Another actor. I don't think I would have any time for those movies. So I do think that that is a. But that's the 1% of the 1% of major stars. I mean, you know better than anybody, like, how hard it is to find somebody who you. The audience will be like, I'm with you no matter what.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which I think Chalamet might have that quality.

[Cameron Crowe]

I agree.

[Bill Simmons]

He's the next one of the under 30 guys. Leo definitely has.

[Sean Fennessey]

You've seen Marty. Like, that's not a very likable character. And yet you're with him throughout that movie.

[Cameron Crowe]

Did you see it come in early on Chalamet.

That he had that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. In Homeland season one when he played the young. The boyfriend of the girl's mother.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I didn't see that one right away with him because he was really good in Call me by your name, but I certainly didn't think he was going to be the next guy. Leo was a little different because he was clearly really good. I've told this story about seeing him in a Growing Pains episode when he was this adopted kid in growing pain and he was just so much better than everybody. He was crying and flipping out. It was like, oh my God, who's. But it wasn't until this boy's life where you're like, oh, protect this person at all costs.

[Sean Fennessey]

With Chalamet, I've just been saying that this next movie I think is the like the ultimate test of if the thing that a lot of your movies have, that a lot of movies over the last 75 years have still exists, that like, can you make an original movie character based drama that is not ip, that is not an event movie? And will people show up primarily because of who the star is and is there enough of a wave of excitement for him that they'll buy into it? Because of that?

[Craig]

And Chalamet has evolved into what Leo didn't have to do 20 years ago, which is Chalamet knows how to sell his movie and is actively involved in marketing.

[Cameron Crowe]

I saw that viral piece and he.

[Craig]

Just has great instincts for that, which is something Leo didn't have to do and actively refused. He didn't do snl, he wouldn't do stuff like, like that Tim leans all.

[Cameron Crowe]

In when they know kind of like how to use themselves and like how much you can, you can kind of like move the aperture, but like, really it's got to be this kind of thing. And they're smart enough to know that like going wildly off in another direction might be artistically satisfying and, you know, sexy, but it's not going to work. And, and Cruz is a little bit like that. Like I, I heard him talking to somebody once who wanted him to do basically a cameo. And, and wouldn't it be fun if. And he was really smart about it. He said, like, I could do it, but it would mess up your movie. Because I would, I would. That ship would tilt in a way that it would take on water. And I, I almost wish it wasn't that way. But when I'm in a movie, it kind of has to be right there. And TJ Mackie is the only time where I kind of could mess around and be a smaller character doing such and such but still use the thing. But like, basically I have found over time that if you put me in a movie, I kind of draw attention and so it's gotta be kind of used in that way. And I thought that was so super smart.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what's interesting is PTA feels the exact opposite. He loves bringing, like, major, major famous people into his movie and kind of explaining. I don't even know if there's a right answer. Because I agree more with the Cruise angle of like, I don't want to get taken out of the movie I'm watching because somebody's so famous.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You're like, oh, this person's in there. But yeah, it's. I mean, if I was an up and coming star, I would just want to work with good directors. I think that blueprint's been established. Like, that's how you're going to win. But I do think.

The superhero capes screwed everything up for an entire generation. Because you felt like, totally agree. It was like, can you make it to the point where I might get a superhero movie? And that was your goal instead of, of like, ooh, good directors want to work with me.

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You hit a point in the 90s where people are like, if I'm in that guy's movie, I'm going to come off well. And that's where I was to be. Yeah. That would be my Chalamet advice. Just go where the directors are, dude.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think he got the best advice ever from Leonardo DiCaprio. Right. He said no hard drugs, no superheroes. Wow. It's great advice.

[Bill Simmons]

And keep a little mystique.

[Cameron Crowe]

Keep a little mystique is huge.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Cameron Crowe]

Because you can blow that so easily. And you're basically asked to blow it constantly because we gotta sell the movie. We gotta do this and this and this and this. And the people that know to hold back, those are the ones that you lean forward and you go to.

[Bill Simmons]

That was Nicholson.

[Cameron Crowe]

That was Nicholson.

[Bill Simmons]

Nicholson was like, coming up next on the Tonight show, it's Jack Nicholson. Like, if he went on anything, you were stunned.

[Cameron Crowe]

They wanted him to be on the COVID of Rolling Stone once. And I remember. And he sent back the message, like, I, I, I don't want to appear as myself on the COVID and I won't do it. I also won't be on TV because then I'll be in your living room and I'll be your friend. I'm not your friend. I'm supposed to be very big and I'm supposed to be somebody that you come to see because you don't know enough about me. And sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's what made it so crazy. When he came to the 84 finals of Boston and he was just there as a Laker fan, everybody was like, oh, my Nicholson's here. This is up there. Like, giving us the middle finger. Like, we just felt like it broke.

[Cameron Crowe]

Our brains, which is mystique.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's just crazy. They did it. Leo's done a great job. I mean, Leo's in his 50s now, and I still don't feel like I know that much about him. Which then he likes the ladies.

[Cameron Crowe]

You gotta love.

[Bill Simmons]

That's about it. You wanna talk about your book for a quick second? How long were you working on it?

[Cameron Crowe]

I don't know. A couple years. Definitely. It was writing for pure joy. I just like. Like we had. I'd done enough scripts at the time, and we had worked on a musical of Almost Famous, and I just felt like I want to get back to, like, the analog thing a little bit and write about. Learn about my dad and some stuff that happened growing up that I didn't really know enough or had written about. And to also tell some of the stories behind the stories that I'd written for Rolling Stone. And so this is just me, basically, the first language of writing. Just writing for pure joy on yellow legal TV tablets. I had like 800 pages and finger still worked.

[Bill Simmons]

Literally, my finger stopped working. His shots don't work anymore.

[Cameron Crowe]

It's my favorite kind of writing.

[Bill Simmons]

Do they work?

[Sean Fennessey]

We'll see. One of these days I'm.

[Cameron Crowe]

Let's work on a guest. Not like kids.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I guess you do write some letterbox stuff every once.

[Sean Fennessey]

Every once in a while.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I write emails. That's about it at this point, really. Well, I wrote like 5 million words. I mean, what do people want from me? Wrote for 15 straight years. Time for mystique words a week for 15 years.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, they want more. They're demanding more. They're demanding more from you.

[Cameron Crowe]

I love writing. I just love it. I love it. And I love directing. Where the. Where the words come to life with the actors, kind of actors that we were talking about. It's the most fun. You know, what's the most fun of directing besides putting the music on the scenes? The little things that an audience finds that cracks them up that you had no idea was funny, because that means you've built characters that they care about. So, like the little things.

[Sean Fennessey]

What's an example of that in one of your movies someone told you about.

[Cameron Crowe]

I don't know, like in Jerry Maguire. I can come up with. With Bonnie Hunt saying, don't cry at the beginning of the day, cry at the end like I do. Which, which, you know, we thought was like a funny little filler line. And it's like, gets huge laughs in Almost Famous Eric Stones street saying, you got a message from your mother. She's a handful. Biggest laugh in the movie. That's a great clerk saying, she's a handful. So like, like that's the stuff that makes you really laugh because, you know, you're. You, you. You've cut that line a million times and somehow it snuck back in and it ends up like bringing the house down. It's the most fun. And you never find out until the first time you show the movie. And it never changes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The only difference I've had with that, with doing documentaries, same thing. You're. It's always shocking what hits. You just have, because you've seen all the cuts of stuff and you have no idea.

[Cameron Crowe]

Sometimes it can be a word.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Really?

[Cameron Crowe]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You can't believe it. It can be for a movie. It's got to be more fun.

[Cameron Crowe]

Sometimes it's a gesture. It's wild.

And. And so, you know, I just. I love doing it and. And the book is really an extension of personal writing, which is my favorite kind of movie making and my favorite kind of writing.

[Bill Simmons]

And I'm glad you're wrong.

[Cameron Crowe]

And songs.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, personal stuff had one of the most unique careers when. When the Rolling Stones. How old were you?

[Cameron Crowe]

Fifteen when I started.

[Bill Simmons]

Think about that. Will you do like a. Sean, how old's your daughter?

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm a huge failure. What do you want me to say? Nothing. I agree.

[Bill Simmons]

How old's your daughter?

[Sean Fennessey]

My daughter's four.

[Bill Simmons]

So 11 years from now writing for Rolling Stone, that seems inconceivable.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't see that happening for a variety of reasons. But I will explain to her how special Cameron's life and work is.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think that's crazy that you were able to. To fulfill a task at age 15. I was like barely handing term papers in.

[Sean Fennessey]

Will you do like a follow up to this? Because this is only a part of your life. This isn't everything that you've done.

[Cameron Crowe]

I probably will. The next one is going to be a collection of the journalism that happened during the time because this is kind of like how the stories happened and everything. So the next one is going to be a collection of the stories from the time. And also I re. Interviewed viewed a lot of the same people like Fleetwood Mac and even Bowie and I just. In the last 15 years, I went around and. And talked again to a lot of the people that we did those big cover stories on, and it was fascinating how they related to their younger selves. And so that's in there, too. And then maybe I'll. I'll write more, but I want to make some movies now.

[Bill Simmons]

What was the best concept, especially talking to you guys? I know you. You're rejuvenated.

[Cameron Crowe]

Come on, man. Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

What was the best single, best concert you ever won?

[Cameron Crowe]

Went to the who. San Diego.

One of the first concerts. Maybe the second concert I ever went to. Amazing, amazing concert. I had, like, a cheap seat, and I snuck down right before the who came on, and the audience, like, huge. Like, all the. The general seating, people just, like, crammed up to the front, and I got caught up in it, and I got slammed to the front of the barrier, and so they were six feet away from me and come out. Keith Moon tumbles onto the drum set across the stage, and they. And Daltrey comes out swinging his mic, and Entwistle puts on his. His bass. And then Townsend comes out in this silver jumpsuit with a crown and goes, hello, San Diego. What a pleasure to be here in your trash can. Because the sports arena looks like a trash can. I'm like, he knows San Diego. He knows everything. And then the audience crushed me into the bare barrier, and I couldn't breathe. But that was the best.

[Bill Simmons]

That's great. At some point, can you write a book about movies the way Tarantino did? I love the Tarantino book. Just like, eight, nine movies. That meant something. You and why. I think it's an easy layup book, for sure.

[Cameron Crowe]

Thanks. I mean, and this was chapter one. It would be about the personal. The personal experience that you have with the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I think every great director should be forced to write a book like that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Forced?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like in a fascist regime where they.

[Bill Simmons]

All have Trump, like, does a decree.

[Sean Fennessey]

Great, okay, we'll look into that.

[Bill Simmons]

I've decided we're going to have these people. It's going to be great.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's the kind of thing I would ask him for if I got his ear. I'd be like, can you please send down a decree that Cameron Crowe write a movie book just for me to.

[Bill Simmons]

Read and protect movie theaters. Can you do that, too? Cameron Crow. This was a true pleasure. Good luck, and thank you for our Kush sign.

[Cameron Crowe]

Well, Kush will be here.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't wait to figure out. I'll figure it out. It'll be prominently somewhere.

[Cameron Crowe]

Just as long as you hear a little strains of Kush Lash when you look at it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

This is great, though. Thanks. Thanks to G. Thanks to Craig as well.

[Cameron Crowe]

Thanks, Craig.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks to Eduardo. And we'll see on the rewatchables next week.

[Cameron Crowe]

Fantastic. Thanks for letting me come in and hang.