‘The Silence of the Lambs’ LIVE From Broadway With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey, and Mallory Rubin

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rewatchables – "The Silence of the Lambs"

Release Date: October 15, 2024

Hosts and Panelists:

• Bill Simmons (Host)
• Chris Ryan
• Sean Fennessey
• Mallory Rubin

---

1. Introduction to "Silence of the Lambs"

In this episode of The Rewatchables, hosted by Bill Simmons, the panel delves deep into the iconic film "The Silence of the Lambs." With Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey, and Mallory Rubin, they explore why this psychological thriller remains one of the most rewatchable films in cinema history.

2. The Film's Significance and Impact

Bill Simmons kicks off the discussion by highlighting the film's unique position in Hollywood:

Bill Simmons [02:04]: "Silence of the Lambs. The first and only horror film to win Best Picture. The third film, Sean, to win the big five."

The panel acknowledges the film's critical acclaim and its role in shaping the horror and true crime genres.

3. Influence on the True Crime Genre

Sean Fennessey and Chris Ryan discuss how "Silence of the Lambs" paved the way for the true crime boom:

Sean Fennessey [07:50]: "It fully based so much on a lot of true crime study and the man at the FBI who developed criminal profiling. So, yes, it starts the true crime trend."

Chris Ryan [08:14]: "Clarice does in this movie, she is like an outsider who just, through pure passion and interest in the subject, feels like she can solve this case. Which is not unlike what true crime podcasters do now."

4. Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter: A Masterclass

The portrayal of Hannibal Lecter by Anthony Hopkins garners significant attention. Mallory Rubin draws parallels between Lecter and other iconic villains:

Mallory Rubin [09:17]: "He's like, Darth Vader. You're my guy. You know, I love her redemption arc in story."

Bill Simmons praises Hopkins' performance and discusses its lasting impact:

Bill Simmons [10:40]: "He created his Lecter accent as a cross between Truman Capote, Hal from 2001 Space Odyssey, and Katharine Hepburn."

5. Memorable Scenes and Cinematic Techniques

The panel breaks down several standout scenes, emphasizing the film's psychological depth and minimal reliance on gore:

• "Put the Lotion on the Skin" Scene:

  Sean Fennessey [47:51]: "This is a rewatchable scene. It’s both unintentionally funny and fucking scary as hell."

• Lecter's Attack on the Guards:

  Chris Ryan [53:32]: "This scene is so well set up. It's so fucking good from start to finish."

• Clarice's Final Confrontation with Lecter:

  Sean Fennessey [61:26]: "Clarice and Jack Crawford start a fan family."

Mallory Rubin highlights the film's use of camera angles and music to build suspense:

Mallory Rubin [66:14]: "The poster. The movie poster is absolutely iconic."

6. Awards and Critical Reception

The discussion touches upon the Academy Awards, debating whether Hopkins deserved a Supporting Actor nod and the rare achievement of a horror film winning Best Picture. They reference contemporary reviews:

Bill Simmons [35:29]: "Siskel wrote, 'Foster's character, who is appealing, is dwarfed by the monsters she is after. I'd rather see her work on another case.'"

Conversely, Roger Ebert offers praise amidst his critiques:

Bill Simmons [35:29]: "Raj said, 'It's been a good long while since I felt the presence of evil so manifestly demonstrated in the first appearance of Anthony Hopkins.'"

7. Themes and Character Development

Sean Fennessey emphasizes Clarice Starling's unique role as a strong female protagonist in a predominantly male-dominated genre:

Sean Fennessey [26:30]: "I think the thing that is most new about it is Clarice. I don't think that there were very many characters at all like Clarice."

The panel appreciates the film's exploration of psychological terror over traditional horror tropes.

8. Legacy and Rewatchability

Mallory Rubin discusses why "Silence of the Lambs" remains a favorite for multiple viewings:

Mallory Rubin [125:17]: "It's a classic. Love it. Glad we're talking about it tonight."

Bill Simmons echoes this sentiment, noting the film's ability to remain engaging without relying heavily on special effects or gore:

Bill Simmons [76:31]: "Great movie. It's a classic."

9. Production Insights and Trivia

The panel shares behind-the-scenes anecdotes and trivia, shedding light on the film's creation:

• Casting Choices:

  Bill Simmons [90:04]: "They offered this to Jodie and it was like a very faithful adaptation of the novel. And in the novel, Lecter and Clarice begin a relationship..."

• Jonathan Demme's Directorial Vision:

  Bill Simmons [23:11]: "Jonathan Demme was interested in making movies that were for mainstream audiences but refused to make them in any other way than the kind he knew how to do."

10. Final Thoughts and Conclusions

As the episode wraps up, the panel reflects on the enduring appeal of "Silence of the Lambs" and its place in cinematic history. They encourage listeners to revisit the film with a new appreciation for its craftsmanship and storytelling.

Mallory Rubin [125:18]: "This is one of the first, quote-unquote, prestige movies I ever saw. It was perfectly tight in my eyes."

Sean Fennessey [125:05]: "She deserves the Oscar. But Hopkins wins the movie. It makes him an iconic character."

---

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Simmons [07:50]: "It fully based so much on a lot of true crime study and the man at the FBI who developed criminal profiling. So, yes, it starts the true crime trend."

• Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter [15:44]: "He hates discourtesy."

• Jodie Foster as Clarice Starling [40:15]: "I ate his liver with a nice Chianti."

• Ted Levine as Buffalo Bill [48:00]: "I'm not going to do the noise."

• Hannibal Lecter [51:03]: "Now, we begin by coveting what we see every day. Don't you feel eyes moving over your body, Clarice? And don't your eyes seek out the things you want?"

---

Conclusion

"The Silence of the Lambs" LIVE From Broadway offers an exhaustive exploration of one of cinema's greatest thrillers. Through insightful discussion, the panel uncovers the layers that make this film a timeless rewatchable favorite, celebrating its intricate character studies, masterful direction, and lasting influence on both the horror and true crime genres.

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For more detailed discussions and episode content, visit The Rewatchables' Special 'Rewatchables' Page on The Ringer.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Look, it's not that confusing. I'm Rob Harvilla, host of the podcast 60 songs that explain the 90s. Except we did 120 songs and now we're back with the 2000s. I refuse to say aughts. 2000 to 2009. The Strokes, Rihanna, J. Lo, Kanye. Sure. And now the show is called 60 Songs that Explain the 90s. Colon, the 2000s. Wow, that's too long a title for me to say. Anything else right now, Just trust me. That's 60 songs that explain the 90s. Cole in the 2000s. Preferably on Spotify. Want to shop Walmart? Black Friday deals first. Walmart plus members get early access to our hottest deals. Join now and get 50% off a one year annual membership. Shop Black Friday deals first with Walmart Plus. See [e-mail] this is the sound of your ride home with dad after he caught you vaping. Awkward, isn't it? Most vapes contain seriously addictive levels of nicotine and disappointment. Know the real cost of vapes brought to you by the fda. All right.

[Chris Ryan]

Let'S go Mets.

[Sean Fantasy]

Let's go Mets.

[Chris Ryan]

Can I get one one Phillies? No.

[Bill Simmons]

You guys realize we're doing Silence of the la, right? Movie about a serial killer who skins his victims.

[Sean Fantasy]

Okay, let's bring out John Jastremski. John.

[Bill Simmons]

My name is Bill Simmons. Let me introduce you to the crew.

[Mallory Rubin]

Woo woo, woo, woo.

[Bill Simmons]

He's having a rollercoaster week. Francis Ford Coppola made another bomb. Adam Driver's career is officially over. You're a guy. And yet the Never say Die mitts are still alive. The Prince of Long Island, Sean Fantasy. She's usually the queen of nerd culture and the mother of dragons, but tonight she's the mother of face eating cannibals. The one and only Mallory Rubin. You know him as Wayne Jenkins. You know him as Byron Mayo. You know him as the vice president and head treasurer of the James James Gum fan club. CR Chris Ryan.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Silence of the Lambs. The first and only horror film to win Best Picture. The third film, Sean. To win the big five, which are the two acting awards. Directing, Best Picture, screenwriting. What were the other two times? Can you remember?

[Sean Fantasy]

It Happened One Night.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

You guys seen that one?

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

It Happened One Night, gang.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like a trivia happening.

[Sean Fantasy]

People already screaming out.

[Bill Simmons]

And One Flew over the Cuckoo. Next.

[Sean Fantasy]

And One Flew over the Cuckoos.

[Bill Simmons]

Next.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

CR Saved us from a horror movie abyss. Walk us through the 80s with horror movies until this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, they were Formative, but they were pretty cheap. They were pretty trashy. They weren't as, like, prestigious as they are now. You didn't have a 24 putting, you know, the auteur spin on it at all. I mean, me and Sean love these movies, but it's hard to find, like, a critical classic out of the 80s horror movies, right?

[Sean Fantasy]

Not very many. Not like this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we're coming off. It's like Halloween 4 and 5. It's like seven 13th movies.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah, Jason Takes Manhattan.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we're doing. What's the Nightmare on Elm Street? Huh?

[Mallory Rubin]

Is this a horror movie, though? It's a thriller, right? This is a thriller. Like, other than walking into a room and having the first thing you hear be, I can smell your cunt. Is it a horror movie?

[Chris Ryan]

If you had the under on Mal, you can catch that at the bar.

[Sean Fantasy]

Several family members here tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't know we were dropping that word this fast. Yeah, I was working toward it. I mean, counter there is a security guard who gets disemboweled and hung like a butterfly. What would you call it? Like a rom com?

[Mallory Rubin]

An ode to art history? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

Think of all the things we don't see, though.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's fair to say it's scary, right? Like, it's a scary movie. I don't know if it's a horror horror movie, but it's definitely terrifying.

[Sean Fantasy]

Were you scared of this movie when you saw it?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a bad person to ask because I saw this in Worcester, Massachusetts with my college girlfriend in 1991. Shout out to Worcester.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And great date movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Great date. Lot of buzz. And in the put the lotion in the basket scene, I thought it was hilarious. And I was like, I found my spirit animal jam gum. And people were turning around and shushing me. And I was like, I know I'm right. I know history is going to judge me, right? But this is pre Internet. Like, you didn't. You only knew. My friends thought it was funny. We all had this as a private joke, but we had no idea anyone else thought it was funny. And then the Internet comes and people are doing James Gum stuff and it's like, oh, so everyone thought this was kind of funny, but it was. It was a relief.

[Sean Fantasy]

Just so we're clear, you were saying at the time that you were right about jame Gum, but, like, what were you right about?

[Bill Simmons]

Unintentional comedy of James Gum Worcester Mask.

[Chris Ryan]

People are filing out and you're like, you guys remember me? This is gonna be funny.

[Bill Simmons]

This is Gonna be. I know. We're all freaked out now.

[Sean Fantasy]

Are we sure? This guy's bad.

[Chris Ryan]

Also? Pitino's gonna be a great coach. I know it.

[Bill Simmons]

You just wait. So this was the peak of the awesome book. It's gonna make an awesome movie. Oh, shit. They turned it into an awesome movie era.

[Sean Fantasy]

Is this era Overshawn adapting books for movies?

[Bill Simmons]

No, like being awesome and having anticipation for them.

[Sean Fantasy]

I think it's gonna be okay. I think they'll be more.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you people read books anymore? Anyone?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yes, you do. Romantasy is having a real moment.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. That's when, like, a pegasus and a woman are like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's a lot of, like, sex on dragon back. Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

Those were the voices of women, by the way, Chris, in case you didn't recognize that sound.

[Bill Simmons]

What'd you say it was? Romantasy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Romantasy, yeah. Mashup of fantasy and romance. I'll send you some reading, send you some material.

[Bill Simmons]

Does it take place in the 1300s?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, just like Game of Thrones.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, cr. Here's my first question.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Did this movie kick off a four decade true crime boom? Is this it? Is this patient zero?

[Chris Ryan]

I think for popularizing it, making it mainstream, I think you could definitely make that argument. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think, Sean?

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah, I fully agree. I mean, it based so much on a lot of true crime study and the man at the FBI who developed criminal profiling. So, yes, if you think about what.

[Chris Ryan]

Clarice does in this movie, she is like an outsider who just, like, through pure passion and interest in the subject, feels like she can solve this case. Which is not unlike what true crime podcasters do now. But not always successfully or.

[Bill Simmons]

It was a weird era because I knew I loved this stuff and there was, like, just not enough of it. I remember there was an HBO show in the mid-90s. It was like an autopsy show with Dr. Baden. Do you guys remember that one?

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And there were like, three stories and somebody got killed. And then they figured out who did it. It was like, oh, my God, this is amazing. And then CSI, what was that? Like 1994. And then the OJ trial kind of flipped it. But from a pop culture entertainment standpoint, where we are now, I mean, how many podcasts? Netflix every week? Like, they're just running back stuff now. They're like, did we do Bundy? Yeah, we did. Well, do it again. More episodes. And it just feels like we're at the peak of it. But I really think it starts here, Sean.

[Sean Fantasy]

I feel like even More than that, it kicked off glamorizing serial killers as the leads of movies, as the key figures in movies. So a lot of them are based on true stories. But, you know, we're going headlong into Seven and Natural Born Killers and Spree Killers that are being portrayed in movies for the next 10 years.

[Bill Simmons]

Mal, is Hannibal Lecter the worst person you've ever rooted for in a movie?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think I'm a bad person to ask because I'm like, Darth Vader. You're my guy. You know, I love her redemption arc in story. But that is one of the great achievements of the film, of course, Right? Is that the nominal villain, the great villain, the greatest portrayal of a villain in the history of cinema. The whole movie. You're like, this guy's going to be the one who figures it out. This guy is the one who's in control. This guy is the one who everybody else has to go to either to be brutally murdered and dumped onto the top of an elevator shaft or to get the anagram that they will use to find timely clues. And so, yeah, you're like, the whole story. I mean, Clarice is, in theory, our point of view. Character and the way the film is framed and shot makes us always feel like we're looking right at her. But, like, Lecter's the star of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I have this. I have Michael Myers in Halloween 4. That was the only time I really rooted for him. See, it was a big comeback for him, Right. People had given up on him. He got shot in both eyes. People thought he was done, come back for the year.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Julia Roberts at My Best Friend's Wedding. That was the other one. I don't know if you guys remember that one, but she's absolutely awful reprehensible in that movie. But I was still rooting for her to break up the wedding.

[Sean Fantasy]

That character is actually in one of those glass cells, actually, like Lecter, Anthony Hopkins.

[Bill Simmons]

So this movie literally makes his career. He's a phenomenal stage actor. Ice Cold is a movie star. What was like the Mutiny, The Elephant man was probably his biggest hit.

[Sean Fantasy]

But Magic, our beloved Magic.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, magic. Which you can find on Tubi. Our friends in Tubi. Yeah. I don't know. What's the category for that movie in 2B? Like, weird fucking 70s movies. I think that's.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the challenge.

[Sean Fantasy]

It's 2am and Sean's still up.

[Bill Simmons]

Super duper. Yeah. So all of a sudden, this movie redoes it and he becomes an A list. Star. But at the same time, couldn't really escape Lecter. When you would see him, it would be like, even in the Edge, which I think a movie, I think we all like. I still was waiting for him to, like, eat Alec Baldwin's face or something.

[Chris Ryan]

And like, every.

[Bill Simmons]

It took years to recover from this.

[Chris Ryan]

Every three or four years, he goes back to a little bit and plays, like, a supremely smart villain. Is that Ryan Gosling movie? He's in Fracture. Fracture. He knows where his bread's buttered, so he would go back to it with.

[Mallory Rubin]

The lining of a intestinal tract.

[Chris Ryan]

Somebody's bread.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And he does Lecter a couple times after this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The best pin. The research is basically, he didn't want to do Lecter again. And then he was like, wait, how much? Yeah, they're like, what, about 7 million? He's, like, getting warmer. It's like, what about 8? He's like, in. Where did we start the. And then he did the prequel. Was the third movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Red Dragon, which we'll talk about later.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm still upset about that one. We talked when we did the Pulp Fiction podcast. I don't know if you guys listen to it, but it was four and a half hours. Oh, and we talked about Jules Winfield being one of the most memorable characters of the last 35 years. And Hannibal is up there. Is there anybody else from the last 35 years that would just jump to your head and be. Cause I do feel like this is one of the eight or nine most indelible movie characters we've had. They were just like, hey, name some movie characters you'll never forget.

[Chris Ryan]

I think. I think Ledger's Joker, which I guess is just on my mind because of the movie. But, yeah, I think that's, like, a big one. Right.

[Sean Fantasy]

He's a hero to you.

[Chris Ryan]

Informed a lot of my politics. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you do Floyd? Floyd Gondolier? Too obscure?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it might be a little obscure.

[Bill Simmons]

Ron Burgundy.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's not, like, Daniel Plainview. You can. The Bride. Like, you can start pushing it, but I really think there's only a couple that you're just like, oh, yeah. Everybody's gonna name maybe five or six. And I think this is one of the five or six.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think the thing about Lecter, too, is that he would be like, if you pulled the masses, you just went out onto the street and did it, people who have never seen the movie would still pick him. And that's a point of distinction.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

There's a reason for that. In 2024, though, which I think may come up. His spirit is alive and well.

[Mallory Rubin]

True. Hannibal Lecter, topical.

[Chris Ryan]

Should we go out onto 45th street and start asking people about Silence of the Lambs?

[Sean Fantasy]

What does Hannibal Lecter mean to you as a man?

[Bill Simmons]

Post podcast. So he created his Lecter accent as a cross between Truman Capote, Hal from 2001 Space Odyssey and Katharine Hepburn. And then he gave an interview in 2001 where he was like, nah, the Hepburn part wasn't true. But what he wasn't counting on was this guy right here who bought all of the 1990 premier magazines and looked up the 1991 where he talked about how Katharine Hepburn was one of the influences on the accent. So don't fucking try to slip that by me. Anthony Hopkins. I'm on ebay, motherfucker.

[Mallory Rubin]

Physical media.

[Bill Simmons]

So one thing he said. Yeah, physical media, People love it. One thing he said, he said, I know what scares people, and I believe that stillness is the key. If you stare at someone for more than 10 seconds, it scares them. And you can do it. You can test people. Sean, you do this. This is one of your managerial tricks.

[Sean Fantasy]

Piercing stare. I've got the blue eyes.

[Bill Simmons]

Stillness.

[Sean Fantasy]

Arms flat at my sides. You ever look at Hannibal Lecter's posture? I mean, he. It's a dead giveaway that he is a murderous psychopath. The way that he stands in a room that.

[Chris Ryan]

Also in living in a dungeon at the bottom of a criminally insane institution.

[Sean Fantasy]

That too, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the first time you see him, she's coming around the corner. Jodie Foster's character, Clarice, and he's just standing like this for, like, 10 seconds. He doesn't move. So he really committed to the I'm not moving bit. And I gotta say good job by him. So director Jonathan Demme told him to think about Lecter this way. I think he's a good man. He's a very bright man. He's trapped in an insane brain.

[Sean Fantasy]

That was Demi or Trump?

[Bill Simmons]

Demi, yeah. Demi. About Lecter.

[Sean Fantasy]

Good man.

[Bill Simmons]

And basically, he thought Elector is the devil. Charming, witty, clever and wise. Seductive, sexual and lethal. And then Hopkins said, but he's also a gentleman. He has finesse.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

He hates discourtesy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right, Exactly.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tough one to him.

[Bill Simmons]

Just like rude people, including Miggs, who I can't wait to talk about. So I don't know if you guys know this, but this was the second least amount of screen time for a movie that somebody won best actor. 24 minutes, 52 seconds. Second shortest.

[Sean Fantasy]

I don't know the answer to that. What is it?

[Bill Simmons]

David Niven in 1958. Separate tables, which we're doing right after this episode. He was only 21% of the film. He ends up beating De Niro, Robin Williams, Warren Beatty, and Nick Nolte for Best Actor. Cr. Yeah, Supporting or best Actor for this?

[Chris Ryan]

We talked about this a little bit the first time and about how this is a huge. Like, what if. Because of who would have won Best Actor if he had been moved to best supporting. But I think the legacy of this film proves out, like, yes, he should have been in best Actor.

[Sean Fantasy]

Do you guys know who won the Golden Globe for Best Actor this year?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. Who?

[Sean Fantasy]

Nick Nolte for Prince of Tides. In fact, at the Golden Globes this year, Silence of the Lambs only won one award. Jodie Foster didn't win Best Picture either.

[Bill Simmons]

Jesus. Well, only time. Sliding Doors.

[Mallory Rubin]

I got it wrong.

[Bill Simmons]

The sliding door is what FCR is mentioning was if he is supporting actor, Jack Palance never wins for City.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, right. And then we never get the.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we never get Jack Palance a year later.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Allegedly fucking up the supporting actress.

[Chris Ryan]

And who knows what that does to Curly's gold too. Right. Like, city slickers, too.

[Bill Simmons]

So the story was Jack Palance, huge for you, who won? Marisa Tomei. And he didn't want to read who actually won. Yeah, but somebody else won and that she didn't actually win. And that's been this legendary Hollywood story that we have no problem passing along without any factual accuracy at all. So what do you think? Supporting her best for this?

[Sean Fantasy]

Well, this is my hottest take, so if you want me to give it right now, I'm happy to do so. This is a fraudulent Oscar, and Anthony Hopkins should give it back.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, wow.

[Sean Fantasy]

The man should have been nominated in supporting, and this is wrong.

[Chris Ryan]

So do you base that on, like, a timer of how long you're on screen for?

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah, every time I watch a movie, I hold a stopwatch and I clock everyone's screen time. That's just something I do.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think, Mal? Best supporting or Best Actor?

[Mallory Rubin]

It has to be best Actor, Right. The supporting role in the movie is James Gumm, Buffalo Bill. Hannibal Lecter is the primary figure in the story. And even when he. It's not really about his, like, screen time because he's the looming specter in every scene. He's in every scene. Even with the.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the case. He's the shadow in the movie. I'm okay with it. Mainly because I couldn't figure out who else should have won between the De.

[Sean Fantasy]

Niro and I think it would have been Warren Beatty's for Bugsy. I think that's what would have happened.

[Bill Simmons]

That sounds terrible. That movie sucked. Jodie Foster, second Oscar win in four years. The child actor star prophecy fulfilled.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Somebody who'd been in everybody's life from the moment maybe age 7, age 8, is in taxi Drivers in a whole bunch of movies. Everybody says she's the next great one and then wins two in four years.

[Chris Ryan]

And for you, this is her best pre Nell work. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you gonna make do Nell in front of a thousand people? What? What Tubi category is Nell? What the fuck were we thinking?

[Sean Fantasy]

Nell is not available on Tubi. Nell is only Paramount plus.

[Bill Simmons]

So this was a tremendous part. A young woman trying to navigate a world of threatening men which they bang home multiple times, especially in the first 10 minutes. Like that great scene when she gets in the elevator and just everybody's like, a foot taller than her.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And they're all in red and she's in the gray sweatsuit.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

They lose over her.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you feel like that's been dated at all, or is it still work?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I think, if anything, it's. You're like, wow, was this movie made three months ago? I mean, that part of it is timeless. Right? Like needing to navigate the corporate labyrinth as you're surrounded by powerful male figures whose personalities are large enough to fill a Broadway theater.

[Bill Simmons]

See, this is funny because Mal actually runs everything. We just kind of. We're like a facade.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm like, is there somebody behind me?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we're the front people. Facade.

[Chris Ryan]

Why were all those guys wearing red polos like they worked at Jiffy Lube, though?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

I got that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great question.

[Bill Simmons]

So would you go, great performance. Very good performance or good performance. Cr.

[Chris Ryan]

Great performance.

[Bill Simmons]

Great. Okay, what's your case?

[Chris Ryan]

What's my case? Let's hear it. She has a determination and an interiority that I think is really powerful in this movie. And the thing that I love that Demi does is he makes these iconic kind of archetype. The detective, the killer, the. You know, like, he makes them feel, like, incredibly human. And she has, like, an incredibly human, credibly relatable way about her that I think I know where you're going with this. And you're gonna be like, but what about Michelle Pfeiffer? It's just like. It's not.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm right here.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but you're setting me up. You're setting Me up.

[Bill Simmons]

You're working me.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Like, yeah, it's.

[Bill Simmons]

The accent is the only thing that doesn't 100% work for me. It's a bad accent. It just is.

[Chris Ryan]

But she's code switching throughout the movie. Like, when she's in West Virginia, she turns it on more. When she's at Quantico, she, like, dials it down.

[Sean Fantasy]

That's like when you're at the bank watching the Mets.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Sean Fantasy]

You having some water, Sean?

[Bill Simmons]

She won Best Actress. She beat Sarandon and Geena Davis, who were both nominated for Thelma and Louise and probably split the vote would be my guess.

[Sean Fantasy]

Two other characters who I think might go on your list of iconic, memorable movie characters.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, this was a really strong run for female characters in the early 90s, and I took a movie class at Holy Cross this year, and I wrote an actual essay about that.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you have it with.

[Bill Simmons]

Because we had Annie Wilkes and Misery and we had Thelma and Louise and we had Clarice. And I didn't know our girl Sharon Stone was coming in Basic Instinct, but for some reason, there was just a slew of really good, distinct parts that I think we've done all those movies. We haven't done Thelma and Louise yet, but it's coming. It's on the.

[Sean Fantasy]

So if you were murdered or nearly.

[Bill Simmons]

Murdered and Angelica Huston and Grifters, too. But Jody's 1990s, this was kind of the peak. After this, it was Little Man Tate Summersby, Maverick Nell and Home for the Holidays and then Contact. A polarizing movie in the ringer Office.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

I would say that this is the movie, though, that set the template for the rest of her career, which is that, like, most of the big parts that she's in after this are much more like Clarice. They're very strong, accomplished women who are the heroes at the center of the story. Prior to this, a lot of the characters that she played were victims or girlfriends or figures who were sort of on the periphery for the most part. And in this, Maverick and Contact and even, like, Flight Plan, Panic Room, all those movies that she did where she was just, like, the leading woman who was in charge and who was getting shit done.

[Chris Ryan]

And she just won an Emmy for, like, a very similar.

[Sean Fantasy]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Intro Detective for Night Country, Jonathan Demme was coming off Something Wild and Married to the Mob. An unusual choice. So why cr. Why did he take this? Why did they want him?

[Chris Ryan]

I think he was interested in making movies that were for mainstream audiences, but he refused to make them in any other way than the kind that he knew how to do. And I love that you can tell that it's a Jonathan Demme movie, but it doesn't feel like any other Jonathan Demme movies. And that's sort of a hallmark of his career in general. It's like the Married to the Mob to Silence of the Lambs. Like you wouldn't know it's the same director unless you watched it and listened to the music and felt it and felt the way that people were behaving in it.

[Bill Simmons]

He said he read the book and he thought this could be the scariest movie ever. I wanted to make that movie. I wanted to make a Psycho caliber fucking terrifying movie. I think he succeeded.

[Chris Ryan]

He did it. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Now we're here. All these years later. He said Jodie Foster taught him it was the story of a young woman trying to save the life of another young woman. And that they had to take the as high of a road as possible. They didn't want to make a splatter movie, a gory movie, crazy killer movie. With that said, it gets a little crazy every once in a while. But yeah, it's a lot of the violence in this movie. You can't see a lot of the bad stuff. It's kind of. You're just watching the person's face reacting to the bad stuff, not seeing the bad stuff. Do you like this stuff, Mel?

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, you're not a gore person.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't handle horror films, which, like, when I was a kid and would hear people talk about this. And one of the things about the movie, right, is like, it's almost like a proto meme film, right? Lotion, the basket, friend for dinner, fava beans and a nice anti. Like before, you don't have to have seen the movie to feel like you've consumed it. But it sounded so terrifying in premise and description that I felt for a really long time like I couldn't see it. I have memories of passing the VHS cover at like a blockbuster or a Hollywood video because I'm old and being terrified. Like, it was like second on the list after seeing a Child's Play cover and seeing Chucky or something. I'm like, that will be something I can't handle. And then when I finally watch it, it's like. It is deeply unsettling. And there are certainly a couple sequences that I think ping true horror, the night vision goggles at the end, certainly. But it's psychological thriller, right? It's psychological terror, which I think in Some ways is scarier, but the gore is actually fairly contained. I watched this on a flight yesterday with a. I would say 10 to 12 year old child in the seat next to me. He seemed fine. Yeah, he seemed fine.

[Chris Ryan]

As he was watching over your shoulder, he.

[Mallory Rubin]

I a couple times felt compelled to raise my hand and block the screen. He was loudly complaining the entire time that there was no wifi and he could not check the Philly score. So I'm sure he's a cr. You know, Billy Heads would be used.

[Chris Ryan]

To silence the lambs as horrors. It's okay. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So the writer of this movie, Ted Talley, said that he remembered Demi saying Lester and Clarice had like a wicked stepfather, sexual undertone, mental chess game. And that Jonathan Demme said, I've never seen that before. I don't think anyone else has. I think that's what makes this movie new. What do you think of that, Sean? Cause this did feel like a new kind of movie. And I can't really express it, but just when it came out. Now it feels a little more standard. We've had so many of these and so many people have either ripped this off or worked in this real estate, but it did feel new in 91.

[Sean Fantasy]

I think the thing that is most new about it is Clarice. I don't think that there were very many characters at all like Clarice. And the critic Amy Taubin wrote something that I thought was really interesting about this movie. She wrote, it's a suspense movie with a female protagonist who is never in sexual peril. It's a slasher movie that is devoid not only of slasher scenes, but of the anticipation of seeing them. It doesn't really operate, to your point like a horror movie. It operates like a procedural thriller with a couple of extremely gross moments. So it is very different.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, we throw around psychological horror as a subgenre, but this is it. This is the sort of like, if you want to show somebody what that is, it's him talking to her, getting inside of her brain, finding out all of her insecurities, all of her secrets. Even though Crawford has told her, don't let him get into your head. And to your point, it's like everything about Lecter up until that jail cell scene is people telling her about what Lecter has done. And her reading about it or seeing photos don't do this. A nurse got too close to him and you're like, in your head, you're building it up, but you're.

[Mallory Rubin]

But how?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, how bad could it be, you know, like, this guy seems so charming, and then he eats that guard's face and you're like, it's way worse than I thought it was going to be.

[Sean Fantasy]

It's kind of like when they were talking about how good Ohtani was in Japan, and we were like, yeah, yeah. He pitches, he hits. Like, really, how good could he be?

[Chris Ryan]

He's in Anaheim. What's going on with this? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, enough foreplay. Let's talk about the real star of the movie. Ted Levine as Buffalo Bill. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Genuinely thought you were going to say migs. Like, for real.

[Bill Simmons]

I have another part for him. Ted Levine. Not nominated. No supporting actor for him. Jack Palance wins. Tommy Lee Jones for jfk. I can't criticize that one because we Love Clay.

[Sean Fantasy]

Show 1.

[Bill Simmons]

Harvey Keitel and Bugsy. Ben Kingsley in Bugsy. And Michael Lerner and Barton Fink. What the fuck with Bugsy? What were we doing?

[Sean Fantasy]

I wasn't there. I don't know. Jesus.

[Bill Simmons]

Blame you somehow.

[Sean Fantasy]

I did not direct the film.

[Bill Simmons]

Bugsy, they're just giving out Oscars left and right and they can't give Ted Levine a nomination. But cr. Best horror movie villain ever. Have we topped this? Have we topped Buffalo Bill?

[Chris Ryan]

What about John Doe in Seven?

[Bill Simmons]

He's pretty good. What's in the box?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, it's up there. I think that that's like my heavyweight finals.

[Bill Simmons]

How about you, Mallory?

[Mallory Rubin]

He's not even the best villain in this movie. I mean, right? He's like a side act.

[Bill Simmons]

Put the lotion on your skin. What do you think, Sean?

[Sean Fantasy]

I don't think he's the best. I think he's the funniest.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe most enjoyable, most entertaining. Certainly they envisioned him as a cross between Ed Gein, Gary Hedberg and Ted Bundy. The Big three.

[Sean Fantasy]

Some cheers for Gary Hedberg out there who did that. These men were serial killers, folks.

[Bill Simmons]

Also, he's Jame Gum.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which makes him scarier, because who the fuck would name themselves James? Like, if he's.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, nobody names themselves usually.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'm guessing his legal name was James Gum, Right? So he could have gone James Gum, Jimmy Gum, Jim, Joey Gum.

[Chris Ryan]

In the book, it's his mom forgets to put the S on the birth certificate. Actually, I think Jim Gum.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah, he was Jimbo, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Jimmer Gum, Jame Gumm. And this character was so effective, Ted Levine. We could never see him in another movie. And I think of Buffalo Bill, like, even he was in Heat. And we're like, they're trying to Save Ted Levine. Break him out of the Buffalo Bill shackles. But every time I saw him, I kept expecting him to go, she big fat person.

[Chris Ryan]

When he does the first. The truck robbery scene in Heat. And Ted Levine's on the scene and being like, our frigger security guy goes for his holdout piece. And I was just like, this is not happening. This is so amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

His. How about this for hyperbole? His dungeon, I think, is the scariest horror movie location that I can think of. And I wrote down all the rooms.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Room number one. That's where he keeps his costumes and his mannequins and. And so is leatherwork on his skins while he's naked. Yeah, that's a side room.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a little side bedroom that has a Swasco Dorn comforter. So it's part of the main room, but it's on the side. I'm doing this, like, Redfin style.

[Sean Fantasy]

No, you're doing, like, MTV Cribs.

[Bill Simmons]

James Gubb. James Gubb Cribs. There is the magic happens. He's got.

[Chris Ryan]

Here's my.

[Sean Fantasy]

Here's my bathtub with a dead body in it. I love this room.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's got. He's got the room where he raises the moths and butterflies. Plus there's a carving table. Cause you never know when you're gonna need a good carving table. Yeah, he's got the bathroom with the dead body that I don't know how long. That body's, like, mummified.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just. No, man, I'm sorry.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm just, like, thinking about. Love it or list it. With Buffalo Bill, I wanted an open floor, but this is a retaining wall, so it has this kind of cavern feel.

[Sean Fantasy]

I love this range. It's Thor.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I like entertaining.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, then the fifth rim, he's like, well, I could have done a foyer. And I dug a deep brick well, and that's where I keep my victims. So just the creepiest dungeon ever. And then he shuts the power off. What would you. Matt, you're in the dungeon. He shuts the power off. What happens next for you at that point?

[Chris Ryan]

What's going through your head?

[Bill Simmons]

Crawl into a corner.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I'm in the pit already, so I don't know if there's really, like, a corner, and I think I want to avoid, as best I can, once in the pit, the nail shavings that are protruding.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you're in the pit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not interested in that. I would just, like. I'd say, all right, I shouldn't have gone into the van. That's clear to me now. I should not have offered to help you with furniture. I don't think this would have happened to me because I wouldn't even offer to help a friend or friend.

[Bill Simmons]

You wouldn't be your number five.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I don't really go outside other than to be with you guys. And I'd like to think we would have.

[Bill Simmons]

Mal and I don't help people move, so we would have been fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

But once I'm there, I'm like, all right, this has gone badly and gotten out of hand quickly. However, I am an animal lover.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'll stay. Can I just, like, hang out with Precious?

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Over here.

[Chris Ryan]

And there's a cat, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I actually. I have some questions coming up later for you guys about the cats. Lot of questions about the cats.

[Bill Simmons]

So the Goodbye Horses scene, apparently when Levine was working out the scene with Demi and he had some thoughts, including came up with the idea of the Tuck Dance. Initially, he was doing it to Bob Seger's Hearst Strut, which I think would have killed Bob Seger. And then they eventually moved it to Goodbye Horses. But Levine said he was into. He thought the character was in a David Bowie and Lou Reed and glitter rock, and that was his motivation. So there you go.

[Mallory Rubin]

Memorable.

[Bill Simmons]

Shame gum.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I would have gotten. I mean, he and I would have bonded over music. I'd be like, is this the fall?

[Bill Simmons]

Man, this is great.

[Chris Ryan]

Love this album.

[Mallory Rubin]

Would you have done some tandem dancing?

[Chris Ryan]

Just mirror his moves?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So all the Oscars. He's not nominated. Hopkins wins, Foster wins. And the movie just crushes everybody. And we're off. Thomas Harris, who wrote the three books, he wrote Manhunter, he wrote Red Dragon, which became Manhunter. He wrote this book. And then there was one other one, right. Hannibal.

[Chris Ryan]

Hannibal. And then he also wrote a prequel called Hannibal Rising, which is roundly hated.

[Bill Simmons]

Claimed he didn't see the movie. Claimed he didn't go, but I don't know if I believe it. He definitely snuck in. Back row. Right? There's no question. $19 million budget made. $272.7 million was the fourth biggest movie of 1991. And to that point was the third biggest, quote unquote, horror movie behind Jaws and the Exorcist. So our guy, Raj. Roger Ebert, what do you think? Four stars for this from Raj.

[Sean Fantasy]

I know that's not the case.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, this is a mess.

[Bill Simmons]

He dinged it a half star. Three and a half stars from Raj. He Said, it's been a good long while since I felt the presence of evil so manifestly demonstrated in the first appearance of Anthony Hopkins. But then he goes through a bunch of flaws and then he says, but against these flaws are bounds, true suspense, unblinking horror, and an Anthony Hopkins performance that's likely to be referred to by year for years when horror movies are discussed. Now here's what's interesting. Siskel, bad review.

[Chris Ryan]

Hated it.

[Bill Simmons]

Thumbs down.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Appalled.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah. That was the next time that Roger Ebert felt the presence of evil was when he did his episode with Siskel on this movie, which is bizarre.

[Bill Simmons]

Siskel wrote, foster's character, who is appealing, is dwarfed by the monsters she is after. I'd rather see her work on another case. Like, what the fuck's wrong with Cisco? Jesus.

[Sean Fantasy]

That's a very weird criticism. Like the case of the Missing Precious. Like, what case did he want to see?

[Chris Ryan]

Accounting Crimes.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he didn't like horror movies, right? He was anti horror movies.

[Chris Ryan]

He didn't like horror movies. These guys were like, this is. This is tripe. I don't want to watch this with horror movies.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah, neither of them like them.

[Bill Simmons]

Today's the most rewatchable scene is brought to you by Paramount. Plus, a mountain of movies awaits on Paramount. Plus a mountain of heart pounding action blockbusters like Top Gun, Maverick, Mission Impossible, Fallout and Gladiator. A mountain of jump scares with thrillers like Scream 6, Smile in a Quiet Place, Day One. And A Mountain of fun for the kiddos with family favorites like if Paw Patrol, the Movie Endora and the Lost City of Gold. Discover something new every week on Paramount. So if you've never seen or listened to the rewatchables, we do categories to break down the film and the first category is the most rewatchable scene.

[Chris Ryan]

We should shout out State Farm before we do a rewatchable scene, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, good point. I didn't shout out State Farm. Thank you to State Farm. Thanks for having us.

[Chris Ryan]

And thank you to everybody for being here. State Farm.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they told me 10 times to do that before we came out. And then I got excited when I saw a thousand people and I forgot. So thank you. State Farm. Most watchable scene. Clarice visits Lester Lecter. And Lester. She visits Lester Lecter Lecter for the first time. This is 11 minutes into the movie and has a bunch of. Yeah, bunch of iconic moments. Where do you want to start, Mal?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I'm tempted to go right to Migs, but I would be remiss as a child of Baltimore, if I didn't shout out Chilton here for a moment. And his offer of a good time.

[Chris Ryan]

Baltimore can be a really fun town if you have the right guide.

[Mallory Rubin]

Baltimore nightlife with Chilton. Sign me up.

[Sean Fantasy]

Did you ever come across a Chilton in your time in the city?

[Chris Ryan]

CR is Silence of Lambs. Pre Camden Yards. Like harbor revitalization.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Camden was 92.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

After this, Chilton definitely had like third base seats, like five, six rows up.

[Mallory Rubin]

He never made it to Camden. Man Lecter. Adam is a friend. For dinner, you know. Never got to see him in Camden Yards. Had to settle for Memorial Real Stadium.

[Sean Fantasy]

Honestly, he had all those years with Boog Powell, you know. He lived it up in the 70s.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, but he never got Boog's barbecue at Camden. Devastating.

[Bill Simmons]

He deserved it. Some good lines in here where he's breaking down. Clarice, your one generation removed from white trash. Just like starts immediately picking her apart.

[Sean Fantasy]

Did he stink of the lamp?

[E]

Oh, Agent Starling. You think you can dissect me with this blonde little tool?

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought that your knowledge.

[E]

You're so ambitious, aren't you? Do you know what you look like to me? With your good bag and your cheap shoes? You look like a rube. A well scrubbed, hustling robe with a little taste. Good nutrition has given you some length of bone. But you're not more than one generation from poor wire trash. Are you, Agent Starling? And that accent you've tried so desperately to shed pure West Virginia. What does your father do? Is he a coal miner? This is thinkable lamb. And oh, how quickly the boys found you. All those tedious, sticky fumblings in the backseats of cars. While you could only dream of getting out, getting anywhere. Getting all the way to the ample line.

[Bill Simmons]

He says the census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with fava beans and a glass of Chianti.

[E]

A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not gonna do the noise. Can you do the noise? Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's like the opposite of me. Did you practice that on the plane?

[Chris Ryan]

Next to the child as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Good cat and mouse game. And then Meg steals the scene. Yeah, Literally. It's an HR violation. That's where I've landed. MiG's committed an HR violation. He definitely got brought in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did they have HR at the.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they did. They're like MIGs. We gotta talk about what happened in the basement with Clarice.

[Chris Ryan]

I gotta Write this up, Meigs. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You threw some fluid.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not doing my job, Liz.

[Bill Simmons]

This was. This scene was a running joke with me and my friends for 30 plus years. Still is. Yeah. My buddy from high school, Jim Grady, was just fascinated by how they did it and want to know if there was a way to buy fake sperm. Because we assumed it was fake sperm. I don't think Jodie Foster was a method actress. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So I'm guessing fake sperm.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

But we were like, we're in college. We're like, where do we get this? We just throw it at people as they open their door in college. But no way to buy it.

[Chris Ryan]

I remember seeing this. I don't know if I saw this in the theater or whether it was video first or whatever, but it was. I remember, like, I do remember asking looking at my dad and be like. And he'd be like, he was blowing his nose. That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

Spleg.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God.

[Chris Ryan]

Time will tell.

[Bill Simmons]

But we'll see, Mal. I mean, this is your corner. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

How'd you feel about good old ejaculate corner throwing motion? Like, just the dynamics, the physics. Just walk us through your mother.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Thank you for inviting me to participate this evening.

[Bill Simmons]

You're welcome.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's always an honor to be here with you. So, first of all, I would recommend that everyone revisit the film with, like, high quality speakers because.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah, some Foley work.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. There's a lot of.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you want to do that sound effect?

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks again to State Farm.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thanks again. Thanks again to our friends at State Farm. You know, I was going to save this for unanswerable questions, but do you guys think that Miggs can ejaculate on command? Because this is a long scene.

[Sean Fantasy]

Chris, how does he.

[Mallory Rubin]

He can't possibly know, so. Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

No, she's talking to him for eight, nine minutes. Migs hasn't seen a woman in, like, probably 10 years.

[Mallory Rubin]

He hears her take the first step.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He's excited.

[Mallory Rubin]

Three pumps later, we're slinging it through the bars with, like, pitch perfect precision. I mean, what's the grip on that pitch? Like a little, like, knuckle curve.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, It's a four seamer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I gotta say, throwing heat. If you're gonna ding her on the Best Actress, I just feel like you'd be 100 times more horrified. Like, not even 10 times more horrified. Like 100. I can't think of anything worse. It's my biggest fear. Walking around LA every day.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's your biggest fear?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Somebod throwing fluid at me. Any fluid. I don't want fluid thrown at me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I have to admit, you just.

[Sean Fantasy]

You just invited the world to throw fluid at you.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't say that out loud. We'll edit it out of the podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't know for a long time because I thought when they call him Multiple migs.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And when she comes back to Lecter, he's like, I don't think he can, like, summit it again. Maybe not even for him. I was like, oh, Multiple. Because he can constantly just, like, rub one out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And then finally hit me. It's multiple personality Migs. And that's why he's in a criminally insane asylum.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But I was like, multiple Migs is, like, quite a nickname.

[Sean Fantasy]

You thought multiple orgasms.

[F]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought he could just rally. Like, when did you.

[Sean Fantasy]

Did you just realize that that's not the case today?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I liked when the other prisoners get mad at Migs. Like, he's violated some sort of code of conduct in the basement. It's like, the worst serial killers on the planet, I have to admit.

[Chris Ryan]

What do you think that the first two guys in that row are like? Cause it's like, guy. Guy Miggs Lecter. And this one guy is just like, I just stole a car. How did this happen?

[Bill Simmons]

I killed nine people. Bet. And lead off, next rewatchable scene. Kathryn Martin belting out American Girl by Tom Petty.

[Chris Ryan]

Awesome.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Right into the van. Sofa scene, which is just a classic. She's a nice person. We've just seen her singing to Tom Petty.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. She has a cat.

[Bill Simmons]

She's a person with a good heart.

[Mallory Rubin]

Cat lover. Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Sees a guy with a cast just outside in the middle of nowhere with a sofa that's just there, trying to load it into the creepiest van possible. And she's like, you know what? I'm gonna help this guy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nope.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, can you get in the van?

[Sean Fantasy]

Nope.

[Bill Simmons]

Just help me lift it in. Yeah. Okay. You seem like a nice enough guy. Are you size 14? Boom. We're done. This scene's super scary.

[Sean Fantasy]

This is a rewatchable scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, I think so. Absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

This is a what would you do scene. We love this on the rewatch scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sean Petty's amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And, like, again, the camera work, the positioning, like, the way you're always right up against somebody's face. You're like. You just are meeting her like this seems like a fun person to hang out with.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know that she's a quality individual. Like, A person, a character. Because she has a cat, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Definitely.

[Mallory Rubin]

So you're invested in her before you even know her. It's the shorthand of having a cat and liking Tom Petty. And then disaster strikes. And also, we get the night vision. Like that just clicks down the little sound design, like the sound treatment. I mean, the score is amazing. Shout out Howard Shore, Lord of the Rings legend. We got some amazing needle drops, but just the little things like activating the goggles, that little hiss. Ugh, chills.

[Bill Simmons]

I always thought about them calling Tom Petty, asking for the rights for American Girl.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's like, what's the movie? And they're like, well, yeah, yeah. It's gonna win a lot of awards. Like, you should do this.

[Sean Fantasy]

Do you wanna hear my quick spiel about how this movie is about America?

[Bill Simmons]

Let's go.

[Sean Fantasy]

End of the 80s, end of the Reagan era. They've pushed all the demons into the underbelly of this country. This movie is the demons. Coming up, we see an American flag. We see the FBI failing to do its job. We see a senator's daughter kidnapped, the victim of these crimes. And we rock out to Tom Petty's American Girl. Not a mistake. None of these choices are a mistake.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, and then, like, every time she goes on one of her hunts, when she goes to the self storage, there's all that American kind of, like, iconography in there.

[Sean Fantasy]

There's flags in there.

[Chris Ryan]

Old piano rifles and stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

Bill's got a flag on his wall. Not you, the other Bill. The other Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

Next scene. Put the lotion in the basket.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it's told.

[Mallory Rubin]

Mister, my family will pay cash. Whatever ransom you're asking for, they'll pay it.

[Bill Simmons]

It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yes, you will, precious.

[Chris Ryan]

You will get the hole.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, okay, okay, okay. Okay. Mister, if you let me go, I won't. I won't press charges, I promise. See, my mom is a real important woman. I guess you already know that.

[Bill Simmons]

Now he places the lotion in the basket. So he's got five lines in this scene. It's unintentionally funny and also fucking scary as hell.

[Chris Ryan]

She sees the nail. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. When you see the blood, like I. This is the most effective. This guy is out to lunch in the craziest way possible. I am so scared for this person, but he's also insane.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's right on the heels, too, of the FBI trainees watching her mother give the press Conference. And they keep commenting on how smart it is that she's humanizing her by repeating her name. Catherine. Catherine. Catherine. And then you see the way that she is able to, like, evoke that emotional response. And he breaks down. Slight tonal shift. I do feel compelled to note in my. With my 1000 closest friends here. That my husband. I love moisturizer. And he does routinely say it rubs the lotion on his skin.

[Chris Ryan]

Puts lotion on skin.

[Mallory Rubin]

All the time. All the time.

[Bill Simmons]

This is a short one, but Lecter meeting Senator Martin.

[Chris Ryan]

Awesome scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We get the mask stretcher combo for Lecter.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great one.

[Bill Simmons]

We get the breastfeed your daughter. Toughens your nipples, doesn't it? And then she goes get this thing back to Baltimore. And then he throws her the Love youe suit. Great scene. Short, but a great one. Next one. We're really getting into the good stuff. This movie. I feel as great as it is. I like the second hour more than the first hour.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think this is a classic. If you're flipping channels and you're halfway through, like, oh, my God. Clarice goes to see Lecter in his WWE steel cage cell.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's about to fight Triple H. No referees.

[Chris Ryan]

Loser leaves town.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And you still wake up sometimes, don't you?

[E]

You still wake up sometimes, don't you? You wake up in the dark and hear the screaming of the lambs.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[E]

And you think if you save poor Catherine, you could make them stop, don't you? You think if Catherine lives, you won't wake up in the dark ever again. To that awful screaming of the lambs.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know.

[Sean Fantasy]

I don't know.

[E]

Thank you, Glory.

[Bill Simmons]

He's amazing in this scene. He has kind of an orgasmic face at the end. He's so excited. He got a therapeutic confession from her. But he also has this key line, Mouth.

[E]

And how do we begin to covet, Clarice? Do we seek out things to covet? Make an effort to answer now.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, we just.

[E]

Now, we begin by coveting what we see every day. Don't you feel eyes moving over your body, Clarice? And don't your eyes seek out the things you want?

[Bill Simmons]

All right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Now, please tell me how. No, it's a movie about coveting.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is. Yeah, that is.

[Bill Simmons]

And body lotion brush up.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And body lotion brush up on your Marcus Aurelius. And, like, how does the movie open? Clarice running through the woods. And the sense that she's being watched Right. As, like, a tracking eye through the woods. That scene is incredible. And, like, the bond that you feel between them, you know, she's doing something wrong. She's not supposed to be there, but they're seeking each other out. The way that she brings him the drawings. And then when we see the drawings after, like in the second dinner scene next, he has sketched her with the lamb.

[Bill Simmons]

Sierra, you still sketching? Still doing your sketches?

[Chris Ryan]

I was just thinking about.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did you sketch the Duomo?

[Chris Ryan]

Lecter has that amazing line in this scene, though, where he's basically talking about. It's like this idea that Clarice has to. Clarice has to basically understand the way that she is being viewed. To finally see Bill. Right. And the idea that he always has the answer to this question. And that he's just, like, leading her to it the entire time is awesome.

[Mallory Rubin]

The thing I think love most about this scene, because we've seen flashbacks, right? Earlier in the film, we cut back to her greeting her father as he comes home from work. When they're assessing the body, she flashes back to his funeral in his open casket. This is the most important memory in terms of shaping who Clarice is. But we don't cut to Montana because it is so riveting and so electric to watch her tell him this finally. And to watch her relive it himself and say, they were screaming, screaming. It's like, electric. Imagine if we just cut to, like, young Clarice lifting a lamb. Yeah, that would be insane.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he does that Demi trick, too, with the people staring in the camera right off the camera, which he didn't invent. But I feel like I think of him now when I see other people do it.

[Sean Fantasy]

It's hugely influential on a lot of directors. Yeah. After he started.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, the next scene is my. I'm just going to spoil. Now, my most rewatchable. Lecter attacks the two guards.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Just an unbelievable twist. This is so well set up. It's so fucking good. From start to finish. The elevator, going to five and stopping. Shots fired. Them delivering the food, the chops. Can you hide the drawings?

[Mallory Rubin]

The music.

[Bill Simmons]

The music. The. Him handcuffing our guy. Charles Napier, you might remember from First Blood. Rambo, too. He fucked over John Rambo. Now he's getting what he deserves.

[Chris Ryan]

And the judge from Philadelphia.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, and he does the. He's stuck to the thing. And Lecter's walking toward me. Does a. Just does the double scream. And then Lecter.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah, he's like Lydia Tarr up there.

[Bill Simmons]

Was he coordinated for such great serial killer he didn't look like a good athlete.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, his heartbeat Never goes above 85. What is it like?

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So we get. During this whole stretch, we get a Chris Isaac cameo. Random close up of Chris Isaac, who would be the musical equivalent of that. Now that'd be like Sabrina Carpenter. Shawn Mendes is the FBI agent. It's like, oh, my God, that's Shawn Mendes.

[Chris Ryan]

It's Sturgill Simpson. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We get blood in the elevator. No movement. And then we get the payoff of the guy says in the ambulance, yeah, pulse is 85. Like, oh, no.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then here comes Lecter and we're off. This is one of the great scenes of the last 35 years, I think.

[Sean Fantasy]

I think this scene is why the movie is a huge box office success. Because people are like, you gotta fucking see this. Like, this is amazing because it catches you so by surprise. But the whole time you're watching the movie, you're like, hannibal Lecter is going to go off in this movie. Why am I even here if I'm not going to see this guy go apeshit on somebody sometime. Like, we're an hour in. When is this guy going to eat somebody? What are we doing here? And then he does it.

[Chris Ryan]

There's an Ebert line in his review where he said, if the movie were not so well made, it would be ludicrous. You have to nail this scene for the entire movie to work. So if it just comes off as, like, this crazy guy being like. And he's eating to their face. Yeah, it's not going to work. The whole film falls apart.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you do that pirate sound again?

[F]

Arrr.

[Bill Simmons]

Arrr.

[Sean Fantasy]

We also don't, like. We don't see Mig swallow his own tongue. We don't see Buffalo Bill murder anyone or skin anyone. We don't see Hannibal Lecter eat anyone. And the only one that we see him kill are the guards. And the only person that we see actually murdered, like, their murdered body in real time is James Gum. Like, the movie withholds. So this one centerpiece is the whole thing.

[Bill Simmons]

It's unbelievable. Yeah, it's. I know what's going to happen. And I'm still, like, amazed. And then, you know, did the guards deserve it? I guess we can get into that later. Like, how do they did the guards? Literally everybody's like, when did that occur to you? Literally everybody's like, don't let Lecter breathe. Don't give him anything. Watch out. Don't let it. To keep your eyes on him at all times. These guys like, oh, he wants another veal chop. So weird. Guy's hungry tonight. Yeah, it's like, hide the drawings. Okay, sure thing, Doc. Like, this guy's the most scary murderer of all time.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Next one. It's a combo. It's the tuck dance combined with. Yep, that's what it's called. Catherine stealing. Precious. Precious, darling.

[Sean Fantasy]

How do you.

[Bill Simmons]

All right.

[Mallory Rubin]

She's in a lot of pain, mister. She needs a vet. She broke her leg on the way down.

[Bill Simmons]

I know it.

[Mallory Rubin]

She's been licking.

[Chris Ryan]

Hey, don't you hurt my dog.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't you make me hurt your dog.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, you don't know what pain is. Now, how do you. As a dog lover, how do you feel about this? Cuz that was like a 12 foot drop for Precious.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you a dog lover?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm an. I'm an animal lover. I love all animals. I think it's shameful, and I believe that she deserved to die. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a long Dr. You would go out, you wouldn't play dirty. You would be like, it's not gonna be the dog. It's gonna be me.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would happily play dirty with humans. Yeah, but not with animals. What did Precious do? I have some questions about how she was able to lure Precious coming and picking.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we did that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I think it's shameful and she should spend the rest of her life in disgrace.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, because she was starved at the bottom of a well, I think she's gonna carry that with her.

[Bill Simmons]

So she probably isn't. Like the song was Goodbye Horses by Q. Lazarus.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

Next scene is the amazing twist of Clarice going to James Gumm's house. But the FBI is raiding what seems to be his house, but it's not his house. It's another house. And Clarice is just there with fucking James Gumm.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, you want to come in? I think I have the number inside. She's like, yeah, all right. It's like, don't go in. And they're rating another thing. And then. But this starts off earlier where Catherine gets Precious and James Gumb gets mad. Don't you hurt my dog. You don't know what pain is. It's getting super scary. And then Jody shows up, and all of a sudden he's got to put a shirt on.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

She big. Great big fat person. And. And we're just going to get super creepy.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. Here's that number.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very good, Mr. Moore. May I use your phone, please?

[Bill Simmons]

Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

You can use an iPhone. Freeze.

[Chris Ryan]

Put your hands over your Head and turn around.

[Mallory Rubin]

Spread your legs. Spread your legs.

[Chris Ryan]

Put your hands in the back.

[Bill Simmons]

Thumbs up.

[Chris Ryan]

Freeze.

[Bill Simmons]

Clarice. A little inexperienced, Sean.

[Sean Fantasy]

Maybe there's a great moment when they both realize what is happening in this movie where she realizes that he is the killer and he realizes that she is here to get him. And it's some of the best wordless acting you will ever see. Ted Levine's face when he's going through the cards, and it all dawns on him is magic.

[Bill Simmons]

He's kind of excited. He's like, this is good, man. We're. We're here in the NBA finals now, and I'm ready to play. Yeah, let's go, Clarice.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Luring a woman into his lair is like, literally his whole thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's a whole bonus.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Clarice. I got the number. And that leads to the last scene, the final basement battle. Clarice. Maybe nine, one, one before you go down in the dungeon. I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

Does she have a cell phone, though?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, no, we had a phone right there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. She asked about the phone, and we had seen her use the landline. Right. To call Crawford when he's on the plane and she's at the neighbor's house. Yeah. This is a classic, like, destroyed by cell phones movie. You kind of can't do it. It has to be in the landline era.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

That'S part of the joy of it.

[Bill Simmons]

I would have 911 ed it. My favorite part of this whole thing is he's like, Catherine Martin. She's like, oh, down here. He's like, I'll be right back. And she's like, don't you leave me, you fucking bitch.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's iconic.

[Bill Simmons]

I was gonna save. You just called me a fucking bitch. That's so accurate.

[Sean Fantasy]

That's exactly what you would say.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

If someone came, they're like, just kidding. Gotta go.

[Chris Ryan]

You'd be like, what the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Chris Ryan]

That would be amazing. She was like, okay, but be safe up there.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll be right back.

[Chris Ryan]

Also, if you see the lotion, can you toss it down there? Kind of become dependent on it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very dry in here.

[Bill Simmons]

And that leads to the night goggles, which just about the creepiest horror movie device we've probably ever had.

[Mallory Rubin]

And the foreshadowing of this movie is so, so good. You already mentioned, like, his pulse didn't go above 85 even when he ate her tongue for the heart rate. When Chilton's telling the story about him attacking the nurse, everything, obviously, with the pen. Don't bring a pen in. And then the way we watch him bide his time with the pen until he's holding the pen and ready to use it. And then here, like, when we see the trainee drill. What did you do? Like, you didn't watch your corners, right? And so the whole. It's not just the fact that she's in a subterranean death lair with a serial killer who skins women. That would be enough, Right? But we know that she has failed this exact test before. Making your way into a room, winding your way through terrain you're not ready to navigate. And so, like, the terror is just supreme. It's unmatched, really.

[Bill Simmons]

CR what was Buffalo Bill's win probability right at the end of this scene? Was it up to like, 98%?

[Chris Ryan]

It's like, yeah, I think Fanduel stopped taking bets. You know, it off the board.

[Bill Simmons]

Biggest Buffalo Bill choke. Scott Norwood's missed field goal. The 13 seconds loss to Kansas City.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Or Buffalo Bill almost finishing his human skin suit and choking.

[Chris Ryan]

Someone should Photoshop a Mahomes jersey on to Clarice as she's going into the.

[Bill Simmons]

Buffalo Bills somehow losing again.

[Sean Fantasy]

I'm trying to think of, you know, we talk about, you know, Chris Collinsworth and Tony Roman, how they might call a game, but that's like kind of a Joe Buck moment. I feel like, you know, where he's like, clarice the gun dead. James Gumm is dead.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the last scene is great with Lecter. I do wish we could chat longer, but I'm having an old friend for dinner. All right, C.R. what's the most rewatchable scene?

[Chris Ryan]

The guards. The guards in the.

[Bill Simmons]

You have that, too. MALE.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think my favorite is the Crying of the Lamb story. I love that.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you love a good narrative.

[Mallory Rubin]

I assume you all were going to pick the escape, so I'll go soft.

[Sean Fantasy]

I'm going with the first Clarice Lecter encounter. The first meeting is my favorite scene in the movie.

[Chris Ryan]

For migs.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because of migs.

[Bill Simmons]

You're a mix guy.

[Sean Fantasy]

I'm a Miggs guy, sure. Multiple Sean.

[Bill Simmons]

Today's most rewatchable scene brought to you by Paramount. From action blockbusters to thrillers to favorites for the whole family, find something new to watch every week. A mountain of movies awaits on Paramount. Plus, plans start at $7.99 a month. Start streaming now. What's the most 1991 thing about this movie is our next category. I'm gonna go with the following. And feel free to throw a couple more in Dr. Chilton hitting on Clarice right when he meets her. Definitely 100% can't do that anymore. Hey, would you like to see the town of Baltimore? No. Great job, Senator. Senator Martin's hairstyle is like a very distinct early 90s.

[Chris Ryan]

Tipper Gore.

[Bill Simmons]

Deborah Norwood Tipper Gore, Morning Today show Look. Serial killer profiling. I don't know if we do this anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

I have something to say about this later.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, DNA evidence. Not really being a.

[Chris Ryan]

Announcing a career change for myself.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, two more helping a creepy guy lug a sofa into the van. I feel like that's not 2024. No. But the winner is obviously Chris Isaac, who was coming off the Wicked game video, which was one of the most important MTV videos of the early 90s. Just him writhing on a beach with some supermodel. And it felt like he was gonna be a star for like five seconds right here with the close up. And then that was. That Was it the peak of Chris Isaac, do you think it.

[Chris Ryan]

Cause he was an unconvincing SWAT officer. That's why his.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought he was convincing. Yeah, he was like, dude, what's age the best? Other than a face eating serial killer is also a genius. What do you guys got?

[Chris Ryan]

I have. I like this for Chilton is the. I'm gonna call it the Mayor Brody trope. Where there's like an obvious villain in the movie where it's Lecter and Bill, but like Chilton's kind of like the villain and it's kind of like Mayor Brody and Jaws, where you're like this fucking guy. He's gonna keep the beaches open, God damn it. But Jaws is the villain, but you're like, ah, God, Mayor Brody.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, we did Poltergeist for the rewatchables that's going up tonight. And the evil land developer is the same kind of villain in that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where he's like, yeah, we're just gonna move the tombstones, put the houses on there. But the Poltergeist is the villain. But he's actually the villain.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. When Chilton's listening in on them and then switches the deal up, you're like, you bastard.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Mal, what do you have?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, man, we've talked about a lot of them, the visual framings, like, not just the way that the characters are looking directly into the camera, but like the fact that they switched from using bars in the cell to using glass. So then there's always a reflection of either Clarice or Lecter, depending on who's looking. The music. I Mean, both the Howard Shore score and the needle drops. Incredible. The poster. The movie poster is absolutely iconic.

[Bill Simmons]

I have it, too.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, that's an incredible one. Okay, what about Easter eggs? Now we're in an IP era. This isn't like an MCU movie, but quietly a really good Easter egg movie. Because you have, like. You want to pause when you're watching it and say, like, what's on the whiteboard? What's in the notebook? You want to read the microfiche article about Hannibal Lecter's astonishing medical achievements in the great city of Baltimore, where he was, you know, the bulletin board. Like, that's all really fun.

[Bill Simmons]

James Gunn's dungeon. I was freeze framing things all over the place.

[Mallory Rubin]

Big for you.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, oh, leather room.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

The structural changes that they made, like the way they edited down the movie and altered the movie. That's all very good. Like cutting the disciplinary hearing, not putting that in. Making the switch so that the watch your corner scene isn't what opens the movie. Good choices.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have, Sean?

[Sean Fantasy]

I've just written down Cannibals.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, Cannibals.

[Sean Fantasy]

I feel like this kicks off a wave of cannibal culture still going.

[Bill Simmons]

And I feel like Armie Hammer's like, I'm in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this movie. Let's go. Silence of Lambs is before alive, right?

[Sean Fantasy]

It is, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Those poor guys shout out to Craig.

[Sean Fantasy]

Korlbeck, pro Cannibal Wood stage the best.

[Bill Simmons]

I like double ending movies. We were like, oh, the movie's over. Oh, it's actually not over. We have another ending. I love murder movies where they have to put that white odor deterrent spray under the nostrils where you're like, I wish I had that in college for some of the roommates I had. We mentioned the single camera close ups. So if you notice when they're talking to Clarice, they look right in the camera when she's talking. She's like, a little bit to the right of the camera because they want it from her perspective. That's some fucking film school shit right there, Sean.

[Sean Fantasy]

Thank you, Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

The Lester Mass stretcher. I just loved quid pro quo, Clarice. Yeah, it's good. I feel like that became a little bit of a, like, entered the lingo.

[Sean Fantasy]

A little bit phrase went into the zeitgeist.

[Bill Simmons]

Quid pro quo. Yeah. You mentioned using clear glass in Lecter's thing instead of bars was really smart. They actually. They didn't like the way the bars look, so they messed around with it. Night goggles this was really the heyday of night goggles leading to Rick Solomon and Paris Hilton. This was like phase one and phase two was Paris Hilton right after.

[Chris Ryan]

Then they kind of went out of style. Then they came back in with Zero Dark Thirty. You know that's right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Sean Fantasy]

And Sicaria.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The first person you murder is the one you covet as a theory. Is this true crime? There's lots of thought on this with your murdering. And then this is my favorite. So they make Manhunter, a movie that we all love, especially cr. Yeah, Manhunter doesn't do well in the theater. Somehow Michael Mann, William Peterson just. I loved it, but it didn't do well.

[Chris Ryan]

Logan Roy. Is it Lecter?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, it's fucking good. And it didn't do well. So then they're making this movie and they go to Manhunter producer Dino De Laurentiis, and they're like, can we buy the lector rights so we can make this? And he's like, just take it. Doesn't get anything. It's a Hollywood producer, gets no juice, no points, anything. Just gives it to them.

[Chris Ryan]

But the rights to this whole franchise are all over the place about who can mention what. The shows, especially Clarice and Hannibal, had a hard time with this.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're like the X Men.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you want to do the Goldman story?

[Chris Ryan]

You do it.

[Bill Simmons]

So they have a screening for 75 Hollywood people of a. Pretty much locked final Cut. And Jonathan Demme has a story. William Goldman was there, who's one of the great screenwriters. Sean named his podcast after his book the Big Picture. And he sees that he really likes it. He calls Demi the next day and he says, hey, it's William Goldman. I thought the movie was terrific. But there's one scene holding it back. And it's this whole 12 minute scene where Crawford gets kicked off the case, Clarice gets kicked off the case, and they have a hearing. And there's this whole moment outside with Clarice and Crawford, which I think is online. Right. It's on YouTube.

[Sean Fantasy]

Is it somewhere all the deleted scenes are.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. And it's this whole. And it's like the scene with Crawford and Clarice that you feel like there's a scene missing with them the whole movie. And this is the scene. And Goldman says, take it out. And Demi's like, what? That's one of the biggest scenes of the movie. Why would I take it out? And he's like, that's what my gut's telling me. You guys should really take a look at it. So they screen the movie again. They just cut the scene. They watch it, and Goldman was right, and they took it out, and it was like 12 minutes, and it made the movie. But it's a good little movie lesson. Sometimes you have to kill your babies, as they say.

[Chris Ryan]

And by that point, the movie is moving so fast that when they give it to the Justice Department, they give the case to the Justice Department to take over. You're like, sure, yeah, right. They screwed up.

[Sean Fantasy]

It's also a movie that has a. Is a perfect length the way that it is right now. Yeah, just two hours.

[Bill Simmons]

It's under two hours now. It'd be like 15 episodes. Just beyond. Right. Like the Menendez brothers was. Nine episodes. I watched all night. Just some quick awards. We had the Fortune 3 CLAP award for most giffable moment. I think it's Charles Napier screaming.

[Chris Ryan]

I think. Isn't it Lecter doing the smelling thing?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, could be. That could be any jame gum. There's a lot of stuff.

[Sean Fantasy]

Tuck dance.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's got tuck dance. It has to be. Yeah, has to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Crowd wants tuck dance.

[Chris Ryan]

You put that up on Twitter after the Celtics won the finals. Right? Tuck dance. Gif me tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

Goodbye, mat.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't applaud him. Great shot. Gorder Award most cinematic shots here.

[Chris Ryan]

I love the Angel. Like the guide.

[Bill Simmons]

I had that, too. Also.

[F]

Just.

[Chris Ryan]

But that's a lot of work for Lecter. Did he have pulleys? Like, what?

[Mallory Rubin]

How do you.

[Bill Simmons]

You know? I had that in. Nitpicks, but we should do it now.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Think the guy's five feet in the air.

[Chris Ryan]

5. It looks like he's on the ceiling. It's insane.

[Bill Simmons]

He needed. Definitely had. He definitely snuck out, went to Home Depot, bought a ladder, got some rope. It's pretty elaborate, Sean.

[Sean Fantasy]

Also, there's only two guards because he also gets the body on top of the elevator. So he's got the body on top of the elevator, and he strings the guy up so there were only two guards watching. One of the most notorious serial killers in American history who was being transported.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, people are bringing him bloody lamb chops on demand, like personal postmates. So, you know, it's bulking up, lots of protein.

[Sean Fantasy]

Catherine Martin, you know, she's just the junior senator from Tennessee. What are we even doing here?

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Chris Ryan]

You don't think she has that kind of poll? It is kind of amazing to imagine, like, all the cops on the first floor just being like, hey, did you see Anthony Hardaway last week? Pretty good donuts. Left worried about not hearing from Jim Pembry for the last three hours.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, because he's got to open the elevator doors, shove the guy out so he lands perfectly on top of the elevator, throw the gun down there so the gun doesn't roll off. Then he's got to lift Lieutenant Boyle up, make him a butterfly, disembowel him. This took like, five days. What were they doing?

[Chris Ryan]

If I was a detective after that, like, after seeing Signs of Lambs, I think every time I came across that dead buddy, I'd be like, just check the face real quick, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Just make sure it's still tug the cheeks.

[Chris Ryan]

That's the guy, right? Like, it's not. He didn't put his face on someone else's face.

[Sean Fantasy]

I will say from Lecter's perspective, though, he's been in that room for eight years. So he's been cooking up some ideas. He's like, if they ever let me out of this bitch, I'm going to do some wild stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he caught up the face thing.

[Sean Fantasy]

Exactly, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Threw it at Meigs. Miggs was like, sounds great. The Den of Thieves. Benihana. Word for a scene stealing location has to be Buffalo Bill's dungeon, right? Buffalo Bill Cribs.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what I had.

[Bill Simmons]

Kid Cudi, Pursuit of Happiness Award. I think we have co winners because American Girl by Tom Petty. But then Goodbye Horses. I don't want to pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

It has to be two classes. It has to be Goodbye Horses. Right? That's like, one of the iconic crowd wants it.

[Chris Ryan]

Ok. That's the best. I mean, it's unbelievable. I would also throw out Hip Priest by the Falls playing when they go into the basement. And it's also like, when did. When did Bill put this fall album on? Like, hold on, Clary Starling's at my door. Let me put the fall on.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Erasure and the Smiths were like, what the fuck? We're right here. How are we not in this movie? The Big Kahuna Burger, where best use of food or drink has to be the ultra rare lamb chops. I mean, come on.

[Chris Ryan]

His second dinner.

[Bill Simmons]

Those look so gross. We rarely get to give this out. The Brandy Booth award for best performance by a pet. Brandy. Brandy Booth was in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, a really important performance in Brad Pitt's trailer. So Precious wins this. Precious has, like, a real IMDb. She was played by Darla.

[Mallory Rubin]

Darla, yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

17 year. 17 years on the earth. Big career was in Pee Wee's Big Adventure in the Burb and Batman Returns. Yeah, Darla.

[Mallory Rubin]

No Longer will Darla come up in Apex Mountain? There's no question, given that filmography.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, no question. All right. The Butch's Girlfriend award for the weak link of the film. I'll save mine. Do you have one?

[Chris Ryan]

CR I honestly don't have a Butch's Girlfriend for this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, do you have one, Mel?

[Mallory Rubin]

I have two candidates.

[Bill Simmons]

You can have crs do you.

[Mallory Rubin]

One of them, I think will be covered in picking nits, which is more about like, the nature of the FBI investigation and Crawford. So I'll save that. I I Great movie. It's a classic. Love it. Glad we're talking about it tonight. The mystery box like puzzle nature of the film is like a little, I think, comparatively clunky.

[Chris Ryan]

Mal.

[Mallory Rubin]

Compared to the rest of the movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Coming after Demi and Tom Harris.

[Mallory Rubin]

Look deep within yourself. There's a your self storage in Baltimore. Your anagrams are showing Hester Moffat. The rest of me Lewis friend Iron sulfite.

[Bill Simmons]

You're not an anagram lady.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I love an anagram. I love a riddle. I love a puzzle. But I think it either needs to be like more or less of the movie. Like Clarice is the only person who's tracking it, which is the point. Right. That's there to heighten the Bond. So that part of it I like. But are the viewers at home tracking this stuff? Do we think, well, this is the.

[Chris Ryan]

Best part about the movies. You can watch it and just be like, ah, sure she's figuring this out. Or you can go crazy and go online and be like, oh, so in the beginning. Cause a lot of people online have pointed out that the View from the Duomo at the Belvedere and Jaime lives in Belvedere, Ohio. It's like you find like he's giving her the clues the whole time.

[Bill Simmons]

CCR just sneaking trump in there a little bit. A lot of people online are pointing it out.

[Sean Fantasy]

Did you see that on Truth Social?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm trying to keep it low. Cr do you have a weak link?

[Sean Fantasy]

Just point of order. Is the weak link more like a performance or more like an issue with the story?

[Chris Ryan]

This is your 280th what we watch, please.

[Sean Fantasy]

Well, because Mal just threw me for a loop. Because usually it's like it's this actress who is a piece of shit and should never appear in a film.

[Chris Ryan]

I hate her hair. Next category.

[Sean Fantasy]

Just remove her from Hollywood entirely.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll do mine.

[Sean Fantasy]

What's that?

[Bill Simmons]

I'll do mine and you can decide. So mine is also doubles as the Vincent Chase Award for Are we sure this person was good at their job? Jack Crawford.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what I had.

[Sean Fantasy]

This is mine too.

[Bill Simmons]

So go ahead, pick someone to talk to. Hannibal the Cannibal, who's only in the top quarter of her class. Like, go with the valedictorian. Jack. This is the scariest person in America. Couldn't be greener. Has no experience. Jack Crawford. Okay. Is a fake deal for Lecter. Lecter's a genius. He sniffed that one out.

[Chris Ryan]

And when they confront him on, he's like, ah, I thought I'd give it a shot.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

No choice.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like he tried an onside kick. I didn't think they'd be ready. He never realizes that maybe the first victim was somebody Buffalo Bill knew. Just completely blindsided by that one. Storms the wrong house as Clarice is going to the real Jane Gumm's house.

[Mallory Rubin]

Terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

And then she's so poorly trained, even though she's in the Academy, she just wanders into the dungeon.

[Chris Ryan]

She doesn't wander.

[Bill Simmons]

Dark dungeon goes down there. What could go wrong? There's 19 different rooms. He could have jumped out at any time and shot her. Jack Crawford out. He's like Sean McDermott and Zach Taylor yesterday. Just terrible job by him.

[Sean Fantasy]

This was mine as well. And the question was, is Jack Crawford the most reckless government employee of all time?

[Bill Simmons]

There you go. All right, agree. Want to shop Walmart? Black Friday deals first. Walmart plus members get early access to our hottest deals. Join now and get 50% off a one year annual membership. Shop Black Friday deals first with Walmart Plus. See [e-mail].

[Chris Ryan]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Chris Ryan]

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[Bill Simmons]

Wood stage the worst. So the sequel, Jody did not do it, apparently. There was. The original script had Lecter and Clarice kind of got like involved a little bit.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you want me to tell you what happens?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't wanna spoil Hannibal.

[Bill Simmons]

No, please spoil it.

[Chris Ryan]

The movie's the novel of Hannibal. They offered this to Jodie and it was like a very faithful adaptation of the novel. And in the novel, Lecter and Clarice begin a relationship where she has undergone intensive psychotropic. Like she's taking LSD and is with Lecter and has replaced his sister, who he also was in love with when he was a child. And they have, like, a relationship, and they move to, like, Buenos Aires, and they're just together. And she was like, fuck that. I'm not doing that. And then they changed the script to make it much more palatable than Julianne Moore did. And Jodie Foster was basically like, oh, I would have done that. Like.

[Bill Simmons]

And as we covered, Hopkins was like, how much? Eight. Okay. And then they do the prequel in 02, which is an abomination where they go backwards. They remake Manhunter, a good movie, like, within 15 years of when Manhunter came out. And then Hopkins is now playing himself, even though he's 11 years older. He's in a prequel with Hannibal, So it's somehow 20. It's an abomination more with age. The worst. The opening credit graphics. This is just a bad time for credit graphics. Early 90s, just a lot of, like, big, splashy, awful fonts. You notice that?

[Sean Fantasy]

I didn't know you were such a font head.

[Chris Ryan]

It's the aesthetics.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't like blocking the characters faces.

[Chris Ryan]

He doesn't like blocking characters faces. He doesn't like fluids being thrown at him.

[Bill Simmons]

You want to do your criminal profiling thing here?

[Chris Ryan]

It turns out that might not work. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The biggest theme in the movie, that criminal profiling and thinking it through and unlock. No. Doesn't work.

[Chris Ryan]

You're saying this is pseudoscience. Are there any criminal profilers in the audience tonight? So I don't want to denigrate your.

[Mallory Rubin]

Profession or serial killer.

[Chris Ryan]

It sounds like that has, like, fallen. The idea of you just being like, he's 30, he has a complicated relationship with his mother, and he will unbutton his top button is not a real thing.

[Bill Simmons]

During the 2024 presidential campaign, Donald Trump repeatedly referenced Hannibal Lecter during his immigrants are cannibals routine. Yeah, I'm gonna throw that in. What's age the worst? Jody's accent is. We mentioned it earlier, but I think that has to be in there. What else do you have?

[Chris Ryan]

The. You know what it's like. You don't really see serial killers using anagrams a lot. And I guess this is kind of something. It's witch age, the worst. But I kind of miss it. It would be kind of sick to open up the paper and be like, let's all solve this puzzle together.

[Sean Fantasy]

It's Wordle's long con.

[Chris Ryan]

Wordle.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a story. This is a wood stage. So they use this guy John Douglas, who wrote a couple good serial killer books in the 90s that I remember reading and really enjoying. But he was helping Scott Glenn out, who played Jack Crawford. And Scott Glenn was like, hey, thanks for letting me into your world. He's like, oh, you weren't in my world. You want to see my world? I'll show you. And he played him an audio tape of these two serial killers doing horrible things to two victims. And apparently Glenn listened to it for less than a minute, and he's been scarred for life ever since. And. Which is he never heard it and mentions it every time he gives an interview with this movie that he cannot unhear the 50 seconds of terrible things that he heard.

[Sean Fantasy]

And John Douglas is the basis of the Jonathan Groff character in Mindhunter.

[Bill Simmons]

So then there's some transphobia stuff with this movie that was actually a storyline when it came out. And it's really interesting in the research because Demi was very careful saying that the character was not transsexual, and it was somebody searching for all kinds of different identities. But all the protests that ended up. He was kind of heartbroken by it. And it was one of the reasons he made Philadelphia. And Jodie Foster said, I feel like he was really heartbroken that he didn't make it clear enough in the film. If there was a gnawing part of him, I think he really did understand where the controversy came from, that he didn't do as good a job as make his intentions clear and that he would have gone back and revised it. So the theory is that's why he did Philadelphia. So we're gonna mention that and move on. The Ruffalo Hannah Rubeneck Partridge overacting award. Is there overacting in this other than Charles Napier?

[Chris Ryan]

I think Anthony Hell dials it up a couple of times with the eyebrows and stuff.

[Sean Fantasy]

I think Brooke Smith also as Catherine, she's.

[Bill Simmons]

Let me out of here, you fucking bitch.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's so good, Brooke Smith.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, hold on.

[Chris Ryan]

I'd love for you to give her the note. Like, dial it down a little bit, Brooke.

[Sean Fantasy]

I know you're gonna be murdered, but just relax.

[Bill Simmons]

Hold on to your seats, everyone, because it is time. An award we only give out when Mallory Rubin is on the podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

You people are perverts. The Mali Rubin Award for. Did this movie need a better sex scene? Mal, you have the floor.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I wish I had heard Chris drop the childhood incest nugget earlier, you know, before we. Before we came on stage. I think that if this movie had come out in the era of the webisode, which, lamentably, it didn't.

[Sean Fantasy]

The webisode.

[Mallory Rubin]

The webisode. Bonus context. Some extra features on the DVD marketing campaign in the lead up to the release. Welcome to Miggs Masturbatorium.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, no.

[Mallory Rubin]

New episode every day.

[Bill Simmons]

That's my fantasy football name. I can't believe you came up with that.

[Chris Ryan]

So just self love, not like any two characters.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I don't solo stuff, like only fans kind of stuff. Yeah, I don't think it's.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure. You think Miggs would crush on Onlyfans?

[Bill Simmons]

I know he's a pretty virile guy in the scene.

[Sean Fantasy]

Are we seeing Migs do the work or are we seeing his fantasies?

[Bill Simmons]

She's still workshopping it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. Interesting.

[Sean Fantasy]

Take a moment with that.

[Chris Ryan]

Do anything in the world to have heard Bill Goldman weigh in on, like, Jonathan, I noticed you have a webisode about Miggs's Masturbatorium. I think you should lose.

[Bill Simmons]

Cut that. Yeah, cut that.

[Chris Ryan]

Less is more.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just the once.

[Bill Simmons]

Was there a better title for this movie?

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

No, no. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Miggs Masturbatorium. No.

[Bill Simmons]

The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest take award still hasn't been topped. What do you have, Cross?

[Chris Ryan]

Lecter's an incredible therapist.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, three sessions completely solves the childhood trauma. Like, I have friends who've been in therapy for like, 17 years. They're like, I think we're really making progress. You know, like, it's just like Lecter's just like, here's who you are. Here's what your dad did. Lambs. You're good now. You're Elliot. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

You think he could have gotten a job at Betterhelp? Yeah, just in the glass cell. Just helping people. What do you have, Mal? Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

He would have thrived in the Zoom era, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, no question.

[Mallory Rubin]

Remote communication. I already gave mine. I think that Catherine. I know the movie hinges on her rescue. I believe that she should have died because of what she did to Precious.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, Sean.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah. I also said Hopkins Oscars fraudulent. He should have gotten the supporting actor. And Jack Palance should have died without an Academy Award.

[Bill Simmons]

Jesus. Mine's pretty lame. I just don't think this is Hopkins greatest performance. I actually think it's the father. It's not like a. Oh, not like the most fun take, but Bill, that.

[Chris Ryan]

That take sucks. That is insane.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why it's hot. I think he's really good in the father.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are you familiar with his TikTok? Because that's actually where he's doing his best work. Do you.

[Chris Ryan]

His webisodes.

[Mallory Rubin]

His webisodes, yeah. With his cat, who I want to. I think is named Sir Niplo, maybe.

[Bill Simmons]

What?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And he posts these really incredible tiktoks where he, like, plays piano with his cat. They get millions of views. And that is Anthony Hopkins, Apex Mouth.

[Bill Simmons]

This is Mouths on cat, TikTok. That's how you know about this casting, what ifs. We have some good ones here. So Gene Hackman partnered with the film studio to adapt the novel, and he was going to direct and play Lecter or Crawford. And then his daughter read the book and was like, you're not fucking doing that. Would we have gotten Horny Hackman for this? I can't tell.

[Sean Fantasy]

I thought that the story that I read was that he partnered with the studio and that he was going to produce it and star as Crawford and that he read Ted Talley's script and he was like, this is pretty violent. Which, like.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Did you read the book?

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah. Like, you optioned the book to do it.

[Chris Ryan]

You were also in French Connection.

[Sean Fantasy]

That's a good point.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Paul Verhoeven claimed that he turned it down and that he has a lot of regrets.

[Sean Fantasy]

I would like to see his version of this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

It would have been hornier, I'll tell you that much. Probably more migs.

[Sean Fantasy]

He could have might have gotten the Masturbatorium.

[Bill Simmons]

Demi really wanted Sean Connery for Lecter, and Connery turned him down. But the good news is we get to hear CR Do Sean Connery as Lecter. Right now. I'm just putting you on the spot. I know you can do it. CR.

[Chris Ryan]

I ate his fava beans with a nice Chianti. You did it on the last pod. It was pretty. It was pretty amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

Did I?

[Chris Ryan]

You did Conrad.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't remember anything that happened before COVID So Demi, Juan and Michelle Pfeiffer, because they work together, are married to the mob. And as people listen to the rewatchables know, she's my queen. And she got nervous about the subject matter and turned it down. And I'm upset. Michelle Pfeiffer is Clarice. Yes or no?

[Sean Fantasy]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Why?

[Sean Fantasy]

I do think it does what some people feared it would do. And it's something that. Like, for example, in the book, Crawford and Clarice have a relationship and that he's a married man and they're having a relationship. And if that's the story that they were going to tell, having a moral, openly Sexual actress like Michelle Pfeiffer might have made sense, but the whole point of Clarice is that she's like this closed system, you know, that she is working through the case unencumbered by all that other stuff. So just as a different movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Counter. Have you seen her in Dangerous Minds?

[Sean Fantasy]

Okay, touche.

[Bill Simmons]

She taught a whole classroom how to read.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

While wearing a leather jacket. It was amazing. Are you guys both out of Michelle Pfeiffer's Clarice?

[Chris Ryan]

I'm more in on Jodie Foster.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible performance.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'm always team Michelle Pfeiffer at all times. He also approached Meg Ryan, who turned it down because it was too gruesome. And then. This is weird. This was in the research. Molly Ringwald auditioned but was deemed too young. Who would have been more frightening for her to act with Judd Nelson or Hannibal Lecter as Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter. So then they pushed for Jodie Foster over Laura Dern. Then the only other one was Ed Harris turned down the role of Jack Crawford because he didn't find the role interesting.

[Sean Fantasy]

It's not a very interesting role.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Counter. Get over yourself, Ed. It's a fucking five Oscar movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Then he did the Rock.

[Bill Simmons]

You were the Rock. You were in the Firm. Like, this was like, all right.

[Sean Fantasy]

Did you read all the other Lector names, though?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't never know it. They basically listed every white out.

[Chris Ryan]

This is the problem with cast. We do the research, and then Bill's like, I don't believe it's like Kurt.

[Bill Simmons]

Russell, Daniel Day Lewis, Tom Hanks. They just list every actor.

[Sean Fantasy]

So you buy the Ed Harris story, but you don't buy the reportedly Daniel Day Lewis, Al Pacino, Robert De Niro. Now, this is what tells me this is true. Derek Jacoby, the famous Shakespearean actor, and Forest Whitaker publicly said that he auditioned for this part and didn't get it. Forest Whitaker would be a fascinating curveball from the Hannibal lecture that we know.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, Pacino would have been amazing.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

I was having coffee with Biggs half an hour ago.

[Chris Ryan]

Wow. Love your suit.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. Best. That guy. So is Anthony Healed eligible for this, or is he Anthony healed? He's. He's Dr. Chilton.

[Sean Fantasy]

He's not Anthony Healed.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not Anthony H. That guy here.

[Sean Fantasy]

Tonight who know his name is Charles.

[Bill Simmons]

Napier or Charles Napier? Is he that guy from Rambo and the judge of Philadelphia?

[Sean Fantasy]

And I would say he's a that guy, except he appears in almost every Jonathan Demme movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, he.

[Sean Fantasy]

He's put him in almost every movie. So if you're like, I'm a demi head, then he's definitely Charles Napier.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we go?

[Chris Ryan]

Frankie Faison here.

[Bill Simmons]

Kind of feel like he's Frankie Faison, though.

[Chris Ryan]

All right.

[Sean Fantasy]

Because of the Wire.

[Bill Simmons]

So Miggs was played by Stuart Rudin, but I don't think he's that guy because we've never seen him again. And he may still be in that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Senator Martin was played by Diane Baker, who seems familiar, but I had no idea.

[Sean Fantasy]

She's a TV actress, and she was in the Diary of Anne Frank when she was a kid.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think the winner is Katherine Martin because she ended up on Grey's Anatomy. Yeah, right.

[Chris Ryan]

Brooke Smith.

[Sean Fantasy]

You know who popped out to me when I watched it this time, and I'd never realized, you know, the two.

[Bill Simmons]

The butterfly guys.

[Sean Fantasy]

The butterfly guys. One of those guys, Dan Butler. Rodent was Bulldog from Frasier, the producer.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Jesus.

[Sean Fantasy]

The other host, he's also.

[Chris Ryan]

I think he's in Manhunter, if I remember correctly. He's like, in the FBI office in Manhattan when Farina's like, get me a chopper. That one. So he got to be in both.

[Bill Simmons]

Dion Waiters is pretty boring because Buffalo Bill's going to win. But we also have migs. We have Kathryn Martin, we have Chris Isaac, we have the two butterfly experts, and we have have FBI. Weird super thin mustache guy. Oh, what's up with that mustache? C.R. would you test that one out?

[Chris Ryan]

I've been trying since COVID I can't get a.

[Bill Simmons]

How do you shave that? I can barely shave this that's on my face right now. He just has this long line mustache. How do people do that? I'm always so envious when people can shave well, like that. Anyway, Buffalo Bill is our easy, easy way recasting couch. Director or city? I don't know if I would change anything in this movie. Would you?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it's in so many cities, too, but they shot mostly in Pittsburgh.

[Mallory Rubin]

I find that enraging that it's largely set in Baltimore but filmed in Pittsburgh. What the fuck?

[Bill Simmons]

Slap in the face of Baltimore.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, or someone else for the director's commentary. Who do you have? C.R.

[Chris Ryan]

I'Ll do Collinsworth. I did the work this time. I've been watching some Collinsworth tape, watched a YouTube compilation called Listen to Chris Collinsworth Glaze Patrick Mahomes for six minutes. Oh, Mike, it's some story.

[F]

This guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Multiple MIGs.

[Bill Simmons]

Here he goes.

[Chris Ryan]

Lion prone. I'm Thinking, take the sack. No, I'll throw a touchdown instead.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh my God. Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Who do you have, Mal?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, I always like to go with Romo, mostly because I hope I'll get to hear Chris impersonate Romo saying chanty.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, come on. If it was Romo, it was going to be like, he's going to tuck it in, Jim.

[Mallory Rubin]

He didn't want to go to Anthrax Island. Jim, here's the question.

[Bill Simmons]

It's goodbye horses, this playin gym.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, cute Lazarus.

[Sean Fantasy]

That's what he does.

[Bill Simmons]

Watch, watch.

[Chris Ryan]

Cute Lazarus.

[Mallory Rubin]

When are you gonna introduce Brady into the mix?

[Chris Ryan]

It's too boring.

[Bill Simmons]

Too boring. Yeah, I am. My pick for this was Doris Burke.

[Chris Ryan]

You are.

[Bill Simmons]

And that's cause Zach Lowe is here. Shout out to Zach Lowe. He's somewhere in there. Oh, this tortured genius was waiting for a size 14 to climb into his van for weeks. Mike. Months and months of hard work sewing a human skin suit, and it's all paying off. I see you, Mr. Gum. Doris. Any pics, Sean, or should we move on?

[Sean Fantasy]

I. I think you should consider putting Joe Buck in for the five word descriptions of scenes. Migs, ejaculate, Touchdown.

[Chris Ryan]

Bill, you don't want to do Belichick from one of his eight pods. Do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God. Yeah, he's going to be coach at Jacksonville in about a week. All right, half ass research, Just some quick ones. The Lecter mask was created by a guy in Jersey named Ed Cubberley who made masks for NHL goalkeepers.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

And they were like, let's get this goalie guy in Jersey. He's like, I gotcha. Buffalo Bill's house is in Periapolis, Pennsylvania. Vert of it.

[Chris Ryan]

No, no.

[Bill Simmons]

Went up for sale in August 2015 for $300,000. And you guys aren't gonna believe this, but it sat on the market for a year. Not. Not a lot of takers. Yeah, it sold for $195,000 in 2016. You like living there, cr? What is it like?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I think you have to account for mortgage rates at that point, though. But I watched a YouTube video of a guy who does guided tours through the house, and he has a Buffalo Bill T shirt. He's like, buffalo Bill is my favorite movie character ever. And I was like, I mean, you were committed to the bit, man, I hope they let him doing tours there forever.

[Bill Simmons]

So Gum's penchant for skinny, his victims and crafting a human suit came from Ed Gein. And keeping victims in a pit in his basement, that came from Gary Hednick. So shout out to those guys some Kathryn Martin stuff. Brooke Smith gained 25 pounds to become a size 14. And then became actual buddies on the set with Ted Levine. And they hung out all the time. And Jody used to make Patty Hearst jokes about them because they were hanging out. And then years later, the prop lady dropped off the bottle of lotion with a note that said, it puts the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it's told. J gum. That would fucking scare the hell out of me.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Super creepy and weird.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, honestly, can you imagine? So then Lieutenant Boyle's body hanging from the cell was inspired by the work of painter Francis Bacon. I know he's excited. And then the final scene, Apex Mountain. Final scene was filmed on North Bimini Island, Bahamas. That's where Lecter was. Okay. Apex Mountain.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean Demme, would you go. Philadelphia.

[Sean Fantasy]

It's gotta be, because he wins Best Director and this movie is a smash hit. But this is a better movie than Philadelphia, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's this. Hopkins. Yes, yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Or the Tiktoks with the cat. One or the other.

[Chris Ryan]

Or the Father, apparently.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's a great movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Father's a good movie. You just gotta get in touch with your feelings.

[Chris Ryan]

We're not doing the Father. Rewatch.

[Bill Simmons]

Serial killer movies. Apex Mountain.

[Chris Ryan]

I was going to say. Yeah, I would say. I mean, you could.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the competition? Seven.

[Chris Ryan]

Seven.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Zodiac.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

Just stepping on my programming for later, bro.

[Bill Simmons]

Jodie Foster.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think Jodie Foster's Apex Mountain is in this most recent season of True Detective when she and Christopher Eccleston are fucking on the desk in the hotel room, and he's about to come, and she screams, don't you dare.

[Bill Simmons]

That's great. Sadly, I knew where that was going 14 seconds ago.

[Sean Fantasy]

And that is definitively not her. Apex Mountain.

[Bill Simmons]

Q. Lazarus, definitely. I didn't even.

[Chris Ryan]

That wasn't in heavy rotation for you for this.

[Sean Fantasy]

Poodles.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh.

[F]

Oh, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Poodles.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm trying to think of another one.

[F]

Best in Show.

[Bill Simmons]

Best in show. That's good. Disemboweling an EPP security guard. Have we ever done better?

[Chris Ryan]

I definitely think it's Apex Mountain for wearing another guy's face.

[Sean Fantasy]

Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

But not. Not for, like.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, all right. What is it?

[Chris Ryan]

Wow. Texas Chainsaw Massacre. That's. You're right.

[Sean Fantasy]

What about Mission Impossible?

[Bill Simmons]

But he doesn't take Face Off.

[Chris Ryan]

Face Off.

[Sean Fantasy]

Are you really wearing it when it's been stitched into your body? I don't know, Face Off.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's more like you're wearing it as a brief.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, Face off, it was the title of the movie and the entire plot.

[Sean Fantasy]

But it's not like a hat in that movie, you know? They're going into surgery.

[Bill Simmons]

Chris Isaac. Definitely butterflies.

[Chris Ryan]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Chris Isaac. You think this is his Apex Mountain?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's coming off the Wicked game. He's got this.

[Chris Ryan]

He's got.

[Bill Simmons]

Got an agent and a manager. He just bought a house. He's feeling great.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like you're dating Helena Christensen and you're in. You got the biggest song in the world, but it's like you're going to be a SWAT guy in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's like this is going to lead to more stuff. Chris, just do the part. Scott Glenn. No butterflies.

[Sean Fantasy]

Crazy town song. Butterfly. It's a lot. Come m Lady. Come, Come m Lady. Sort of a migs anthem. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. Good stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Francis Bacon homages for sure. I say yes. How about if somebody very eating dinner and somebody orders lamb chops extra rare, you think of this movie and then assume that they're also a murderer.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this Apex Mountain for lamb chops?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think so. Ted Levine, definitely. Night goggles. It's this. Or Rick Solomon in the finals. I don't know. Probably this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh. Jurassic Park.

[Chris Ryan]

Really good feedback.

[Bill Simmons]

The tuck dance, definitely. And then.

[Chris Ryan]

It'S so close to the tuck rule. Every time you see it, I imagine Brady going like that.

[Sean Fantasy]

Wouldn't it be such a good touchdown celebration, though, if someone like the tuck dance, you know, like Jamar Chase just dropped that. Next Sunday. Incredible.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't believe Kyle Hamilton ran that.

[Bill Simmons]

All the way back. He's doing that tuck in. Oh, no, he's chucking it in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Emmy.

[Bill Simmons]

The 1979 Dodge Tradesman. Maxie Van.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That was a James Gums car. Yeah. I'm going to say Apex Mount for that. Cruz or Hanks for Lecter. Polarizing category every time we do it.

[Chris Ryan]

Obviously. Cruz. Right.

[Sean Fantasy]

I think Cruz can play every male part in this movie convincingly.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, let's just talk this out, okay?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We're trying to win Oscars. We're trying to win the big five. You're telling me this movie is better with Tom Cruise, an actor that I love, who I think leads for most rewatchable movies right now. Is it him or Pacino? I think it's Cruz.

[Chris Ryan]

It's Cruz.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Cruz has had the most. You're buying him as Hannibal Lecter?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Tom Cruise.

[Sean Fantasy]

America's Uncle Tom Hanks or ice cold weirdo Tom Cruise, whom I love.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think, Mal?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think Hanks would be a great Crawford. That makes the movie, like, better, right? Cause he's wonderful as Crawford. I do believe that Cruz would have played a compelling Miggs.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz. All right, so we're going Cruise.

[Chris Ryan]

Cruz's prep for Migs would be unbelievable. That would be a webisode. It was like the nine months getting ready.

[Bill Simmons]

I like your Cruz could play every male part in the movie Take. That's strong Racehorse, Rock band wrestler, fantasy team name. I'm going to give you lotion in the basket.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yes. That's the pick.

[Bill Simmons]

Tuck Dance. Desperately random or Jame Gumballs.

[Sean Fantasy]

Well, but what about goodbye horses?

[Mallory Rubin]

What about Hester Moffat? Hester Moffat's a great racehorse name. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So what's the best?

[Mallory Rubin]

It's low shot in the basket.

[Bill Simmons]

Tuck Dance is the best racehorse name possible. Here comes Tuck Dance.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

Can I add a little something to that category?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

One last thing I would add to it is best name you would want to check into a hotel with.

[Bill Simmons]

With.

[Sean Fantasy]

I thought Lewis Friend would be an amazing hotel name.

[Bill Simmons]

Lewis Friend.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah. The fake name that he gives.

[Mallory Rubin]

Now you goes. Now you guys know how to find Sean out on the road. Next, Rewatchables live. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. We're in the home stretch here. And this is the best part because we're going to pick some nits. So, boy. Yeah, you got. You got. I have a bunch cr. Give me one.

[Chris Ryan]

Chilton's got like 600 rules for going to meet Lecter. And then when he goes down there, he's just like, what's the sharpest thing that I am holding? I'm gonna make this great deal with Kathryn Martin's mom, and I'm gonna get a promotion. And then he just leaves the pen. It's just like, you would just be like, do I have a pointy object that I brought into this? So that always drove me crazy. And then obviously helping people move couches just if your best friends doesn't happen anymore. So, like, you would not help a guy in a cast at night pick up a couch and put it in the.

[Bill Simmons]

With nobody around.

[Chris Ryan]

With nobody around.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you got, Mal?

[Mallory Rubin]

So the idea is Buffalo Bill is starving his victims for three days to loosen the skin. I don't understand then why he's feeding Catherine. She says it's scraps, but, like, she needs that bone to lure precious. Why does she have any food? The whole point is that he's starving Her. This doesn't make any sense.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a great point. I have no counter. Trying to come over the counter. I can't. Yeah, there's just throwing, like, almonds down there or something.

[Mallory Rubin]

She has, like, a tray of barbecue on her lap.

[Bill Simmons]

She's like.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's just scraps. I only had one chicken wing, one thigh, some mashed potatoes, did cornbread. It's absurd. The moths. I do have some notes here for just our investigators in general. Nobody until Clarice spots a cocoon in the throats of the victim. Nobody. What kind of shoddy work are they doing?

[Chris Ryan]

The guy also was the funeral parlor organist. I mean, he was, you know, spread pretty thin.

[Bill Simmons]

Double duty.

[Mallory Rubin]

He had killed five victims already. There are newspapers everywhere. Nobody spots a moth in the throat. This is absurd. The fact that every victim has a different part of skin removed. Right. We've got the arm peeled, we've got the back.

[Bill Simmons]

Nobody's thinking human suit.

[Mallory Rubin]

I just think you should. It's just not. The distance between the two points is not that far.

[Bill Simmons]

Clarice can solve any anagram, but somehow can't piece together back, arm, knee.

[Mallory Rubin]

What about everybody else? She's the one who finally figures it out, at least nobody else at the fucking FBI figures out he's making a suit out of the skin. Nobody.

[Bill Simmons]

I have some big ones for the escape.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

First of all, this is the most notorious criminal in America. So dangerous, he's on his own floor of this building. No cameras. It's like 20 bucks to buy one long security camera. The fucking two security guards had one job, Just one. Just deliver them the food and don't get killed. They lose. And then. And this is the worst of this is Shawshank. When he exchanges his shoes and the suit with the word in. And he's seven inches taller than the warden. Like, it's just. But Lecter just fitting into cop number two's clothes perfectly. And his face. What are the odds? Honestly, like 10 to 1. Just. Guy's a perfect fit. It's not a little tight.

[Sean Fantasy]

Some elegant surgical work. Getting that face off cleanly. How did he do that? What did he do with.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he went. It seems like he went around and up.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, he's got that guy's little switchblade.

[Mallory Rubin]

But this person.

[Sean Fantasy]

You've done this before. You're like, just writing this off. You're like, oh, well, he had a knife.

[Bill Simmons]

And then. How does he.

[Sean Fantasy]

Hang on. Surgeons just.

[Bill Simmons]

We talked about. Yeah, Lieutenant Boyle's five feet up in the air. Somehow he's got no help.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, he's a genius, so I assume he understands, like, vectors and force and things like that. Right? That was that part. I was actually okay with the paramedics. Yeah, the paramedics. Medical professionals. Now I am not. Hold on, Jim. They can't. They're, like, duped by the fake seizure and the idea. The premise of facial. Facial laceration. They can't tell this is a completely alive, fine, healthy person. Like, yeah. What?

[Sean Fantasy]

I'll go one step further. So Hannibal Lecter is one of the world's great psychologists and great thinkers about the human mind. And he's presented as somebody who can potentially help the case just by understanding the profile of a killer. But it turns out that he just knew the guy. Yeah, what the fuck are the odds of that, right?

[Chris Ryan]

This is like, criminal profile. And kind of went downhill.

[Sean Fantasy]

He was like, yeah, I treated this guy as a patient once. He was weird. I never forgot him.

[Bill Simmons]

He's in my Orioles chat room.

[Sean Fantasy]

What kind of a mystery is that?

[Bill Simmons]

We talked about the wing bucket trick to snatch Precious. They don't show it. It seems pretty. I don't know. Dogs, especially small dogs, are pretty skittish. You really have to pull that bucket with enough force. I just wanted to see it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I guess all of a sudden, the dog's in the dungeon and it.

[Chris Ryan]

Jonathan. Bill Goldman. You gotta get the dog scene.

[Sean Fantasy]

You should have done Collinsworth with Catherine pulling the dog in.

[Bill Simmons]

Miggs died by swallowing his own tongue. Which, if you research this, which, sadly, I had to, I'm probably gonna get a virus. But it's impossible to do. Your body, you physically can't swallow your own tongue, so.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

So he had to cut his own tongue off and then choke on it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Your Google history for this prep was, can you swallow your own tongue? And how do you make fake cum?

[Bill Simmons]

And how do you throw your cum? Was another thing I Googled.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. My two biggest nitpicks, though. So Lecter wants Chianti with liver and fava beans, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Are you about to break out a wine guy?

[Chris Ryan]

Is wine guy about to log out?

[Bill Simmons]

Wine guy's here, everybody. Wow, terrible choice. I researched this, and he should have said something sweeter, like a zinfandel. A shiraz, a coteron.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Chianti. Not a good choice. I feel like Lecter's a little fraudulent with throwing around the wine.

[Chris Ryan]

This is before Sideways. So do you think, like, the American palate was kind of a little more primitive back then?

[Bill Simmons]

You don't put Chianti with Liver. Terrible job by Lecter. And then this is the one that gets me the most. Lecter's just completely offended by Miggs. Come throw. This has violated some sort of human behavior rule for him. His name is Hannibal the Cannibal. He literally eats people and he's like, ah, the cum throwing. I don't know. Migs really offensive.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gotta have a code, you know, he.

[Bill Simmons]

Just thought it was rude.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Again, he's a cannibal. Anything else before we move on?

[Sean Fantasy]

Did Buffalo Bill know that he had captured a senator's daughter? If you're a criminal mastermind, that's kind of a broad term target. He didn't turn on the TV and was like, oh.

[Chris Ryan]

But I think when Cleary shows up, like, I think he wants the notoriety. It's kind of like Red Dragon and manhood.

[Sean Fantasy]

I think he did on purpose.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, he was doing it for clicks, you know, like, wow.

[Sean Fantasy]

Engagement, farming, Buffalo Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

Any other nitpicks? Sequel, Prequel. Prestige tv, all black cast are untouchable as the next category. Well, well, we've had a prequel, we've had a sequel. We've had two TV series. Hannibal and Clarice. I didn't even remember the Clarice TV series.

[Chris Ryan]

Clarice episode.

[Bill Simmons]

Who was in that?

[Chris Ryan]

I can't remember. It was on cbs.

[Bill Simmons]

Fucking migs. Nothing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yet nothing coming this fall on episode.

[Bill Simmons]

Buffalo Bill prequel or story? All right, is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Sam Jackson, J.T. walsh, Byron Mayo, Harling Mays, Evil Laffey, Ramon Raymond, or Philip Baker Hall?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, it's definitely better with Byron Mayo.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you got?

[Chris Ryan]

CR but if Wayne was to do this, I'm sorry, to my wife. God damn, Miggs. I didn't know I was working with Super Seed Tosser. You're spreading it around like Philip Rivers. Animal C. Word drop. You better put that thing away or Lecter's gonna have you swallowing your tongue for a long time, big boy.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, man.

[Chris Ryan]

And you know, it's. It's meaningful because of the Baltimore kick.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We had to do Wayne for Baltimore.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just one Oscar. Who gets it? John can only hand out one.

[Sean Fantasy]

I thought long and hard about this and I went with Jodie Foster.

[Bill Simmons]

Really?

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[Sean Fantasy]

Over Demi, over picture. This is also. This is the year of jfk. And I think there's a case for JFK in Best Picture, but I don't think there's a case for anybody else in Best Actress. And I think this is Jodie Foster's best performance ever.

[Bill Simmons]

That's Sarandon she's amazing in Thelma.

[Sean Fantasy]

She's great. She's great quality.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have now?

[Chris Ryan]

Hopkins, the guy who did the font.

[Bill Simmons]

I would do movie.

[Chris Ryan]

What's that movie?

[Sean Fantasy]

Best Picture.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Probably unanswerable questions.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, boy.

[Bill Simmons]

Was Miggs his first name or his last name?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So I'm gonna give you some choices here. Was he Miggs Robinson or was he like Johnny Miggs?

[Mallory Rubin]

Johnny Miggs is amazing.

[Chris Ryan]

Miggs, like Brooks Robinson.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't sulk.

[Bill Simmons]

Miggs Jackson. Would you go first name or last name for Miggs?

[Mallory Rubin]

What if it's just a nickname?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, like his name is, like, Miguel.

[Sean Fantasy]

Or what if it's more just like Prince or like Madonna?

[Bill Simmons]

He's one name. Yeah. Like Beyonce.

[Chris Ryan]

Like the Boss.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's just Migs.

[Chris Ryan]

Like Beyonce his birthday to be.

[Sean Fantasy]

Migs.

[Bill Simmons]

Lecter was a genius who loved eating people.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he was onto something. Cannibalism.

[Chris Ryan]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

The high iq people are doing it.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is. Which is the unanswerable question.

[Bill Simmons]

Why would he. Genius. Why would he like to eat people? Maybe he knows something.

[Sean Fantasy]

So the question is, are we sure cannibalism is bad?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you have for unanswerables?

[Chris Ryan]

I just was curious, like, how Bill got in to cue Lazarus in the fall and stuff. Like, it just seems like he wouldn't have time to become a really discerning music fan.

[Bill Simmons]

He's at a record store in Ohio.

[Chris Ryan]

Hell, I'm not trying to gatekeep. I'm just curious.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. Do you have any?

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, I'm curious. This one's for you before I get to some of my others. Opening scene. We're at the Quantico training course. We pass a sign. It says, hurt, Agony, Pain. Love it. How long did it take you to realize this would be your management style? Style.

[Bill Simmons]

Hurt, Agony, Pain.

[Mallory Rubin]

Love Pain. Love it, love it.

[Chris Ryan]

The triangle there, it's pretty good. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did all of Buffalo Bill's victims have cats? Because when. When Clarice goes to Frederica's house, there's a cat.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And obviously we know that Catherine had a cat. So did everyone have a.

[Bill Simmons]

So James, anti cat guy, but, like, animal lover.

[Mallory Rubin]

Canonical animal lover because of Precious. So I'm wondering if everybody else had a cat. As a Baltimorean, I'm curious. What do we think Lecter paired Chilton with when he had his friend for dinner? Little dusting of Old Bay.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, mixed with some jumbo lump. A little crab cake. Paired him with a Natty Bow. Yeah, I know.

[Bill Simmons]

It's for the wine.

[Mallory Rubin]

Beef sandwich.

[Sean Fantasy]

Well, we know he's probably in Haiti, so it might have been more of a Creole recipe or something like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gotta honor their time together in Baltimore, right? No. How long do you think it took Pilch and Rodin to get fired for workplace misconduct?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God, the Mothman. I think everyone got fired.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Where? He's just.

[Bill Simmons]

I think literally everyone got fired at the end of this. What do you think Lecter said to Miggs to get him to swallow his own tongue? There's incredible Reddit threads about this, like, stunning detail about him diving into Biggs psyche. Yeah. But I don't know what he did, but after four hours, Biggs was like, I'm fucking killing myself. This guy's. He's in my head. I can't take it. He's just in the next cell. What could Lecter have done? Just talking, talking, talking. Chris, do you think Senator Martin got reelected?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, she's really got a narrative now. She's got a story. She can tell the electorate for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

When I found my daughter. All right, this is the big one. Did Katherine Martin keep Precious? Mal goes, no.

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, what's the case? She. We see her carrying Precious out.

[Mallory Rubin]

She lured that animal into a death pit and broke its leg. She shouldn't be allowed to keep that dog.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, so you think the dog services take the dog away?

[Mallory Rubin]

I hope so.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. That's my pick for like what happened the next day. Day as Precious finally finds a loving, nurturing home.

[Sean Fantasy]

Honestly, Bill seemed like a good caregiver.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Lots of room.

[Mallory Rubin]

Lots of room in the subterranean basement.

[Sean Fantasy]

I have one unanswerable question.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

Did Buffalo Bill invent Pinterest? Because if you look on the walls, he's got a lot of materials, a lot of inspo, but in particular, he's got these Polaroids of strippers sitting on his lap. And he's clearly using the strippers bodies as his design inspiration for his skin suit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

And fast forward 15, 20 years, depends on great digital business, you know, like.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he was on something way ahead of his time. Best double feature choice has to be Manhunter.

[Chris Ryan]

I got Manhunter.

[Sean Fantasy]

Yeah, I had Zodiac.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh man, you're really going for a dark four and a half hours. Jesus. Some anagrams, the Indian Red Z award. What happened the next day? So I had. So you had Precious gets taken by dog services. I had Lecter 8 Dr. Chilton, and then headed on over to Epstein island because it's very close to North Bimini. Had a great time there. What do you have, Sean?

[Sean Fantasy]

Clarice and Jack Crawford start a fan family.

[Bill Simmons]

You think they end up together?

[Sean Fantasy]

He's really eyeing her in that final scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fantasy]

You know, he's like, I'll see you around.

[Chris Ryan]

I think she starts dating the moth guy. I think she's like, you know what? I need somebody a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Butterfly guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

Pilch.

[Mallory Rubin]

No. I want more for Clarice than Pilch. That's.

[Chris Ryan]

Find out that she dates Hamble Lecter. So we're trying to find, like, a happier angle.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, they had a real spark, at least.

[Bill Simmons]

What piece of memorability would you want from this movie? I will give you the following.

[Chris Ryan]

I really thought about this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, this was hard.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'll give you five. And if I left out anything, tell me the lector mask.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Two masks, by the way. You could have both. I'm gonna throw two for one special. One mask that kind of squished his nose. It looked uncomfortable. The night goggles.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great one.

[Bill Simmons]

Break those out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great one.

[Bill Simmons]

The bottle of lotion.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The drawing of Clarice holding the lamp.

[Mallory Rubin]

Ooh.

[Bill Simmons]

Go right over the fireplace. Not weird at all.

[Chris Ryan]

Just don't ever comment on it. Just sort of just sit there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Just like, what is that? And then I got the Lieutenant Boyle game Muse Murder nightstick.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, man, that's good. Great one.

[Bill Simmons]

Those are my five. What else?

[Chris Ryan]

It's hard to make this memorabilia, but I would love to have one of the fake towns that the FBI gets to practice so that I could just, like, reenact heat for fun, you know? Like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great one. The little moth cocoon.

[Sean Fantasy]

That's what I was thinking of, too.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's a great one.

[Bill Simmons]

Ooh, that's a good one.

[Mallory Rubin]

What about the paste you put under your nose, Bill, you already said that's what you want.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like you can get that on Amazon probably.

[Chris Ryan]

You should Google that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are you getting. If you. If you pick the lotion, do you get the basket, too? Like, is it a two for one?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I'll throw the. I'll throw in the basket.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's the pickup.

[Bill Simmons]

That's great.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that's the epic.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if you guys know about this propstore.com. but they literally have all this shit now, so you can just bid on this. The Shawshank Bible went for $450,000. So what? All bets are off.

[Mallory Rubin]

Where do you. Where do you keep it?

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't. I didn't get it.

[Chris Ryan]

He keeps it in Buffalo Bill's house that he also bought, I will say, for a song.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I did look at the prop store and you could see what they had in the previous auctions, and they had one of the Dirk Digler paintings from Boogie Nights. And I was like, fuck. Wow. Absolutely would have had that in my house. The Coach Finstock award for best life lesson. I have one, but what do you guys have?

[Mallory Rubin]

Never help somebody move furniture.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, thank you. Don't help a creepy guy moving stuff into a van.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a no for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Told my daughter, like, if you learn anything from this movie, let that be it. And then who won the movie? Who do you have? C.R.

[Chris Ryan]

I have Hopkins.

[Sean Fantasy]

Same to me as well.

[Bill Simmons]

You just gave Jodie Foster the Oscar.

[Sean Fantasy]

She deserves the Oscar. But Hopkins wins the movie. It makes him an iconic character. It makes him like a huge, bankable actor in Hollywood. Jodie Foster had already won an Oscar at this point, but Hopkins, as you said, his movie career was not really in a great place.

[Chris Ryan]

And we're still talking about his performance to this day, and people still imitate it and still people reference it.

[Bill Simmons]

And the Pat Riley slick back hair.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right. He invented that.

[Bill Simmons]

It's another one. I was thinking about doing that tonight, but it's a little crazy creepy. All right, we've come to an end. Unless there's any other. Did we hit everything? I feel like we did. Did you want CR to do any Buffalo Bill or no? All right, that's it.

[Chris Ryan]

Wingrow and tuck dance. It's great legacy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you can. If you've never seen the Rewatchables or listened to it, it's a podcast. Anyone who's here who was like, what the fuck was this? I'm sorry, but be running this next week. Thank you, New York. Good luck to the Mets.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks, State Farm.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you, State Farm.

[Bill Simmons]

Worst of luck to the Yankees. Sorry. Best of luck to the Mets, though.

[Sean Fantasy]

Thank you to State Farm.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you to State Farm.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you, State Farm. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you, State Farm.

[Bill Simmons]

I think State Farm left halfway through the pot after our ninth mix thing. But thank you to State Farm. And thanks to everybody in the Rewatchables crew. And thanks to producer Craig Horlbach too.

[Mallory Rubin]

Woo.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll see. See you next time. Thank you.

[F]

All right, before we go here, Bill wanted me to jump in and give my quick review of this movie. Also wanted to promote the YouTube channel. You can watch this live show on YouTube.comringer movies right now. We did it in New York at the Music Box Theater on Broadway. Super Fun, amazing venue. You check it out on YouTube and stick around for Scary Month on the rewatchables. I think we have three more. Two more. Three more movies. But Silence of the Lambs is a movie that I love very much. I've seen it a ton, and by that I mean probably like five times. This was one of the first, quote unquote, prestige movies I ever saw. I think I saw this in high school and I remember thinking that this was the most complete movie I had ever seen. I finally understood. I was like, oh, this is what happens when everything is clicking on all still cylinders, no flaws. This movie was perfectly tight in my eyes. Jodie Foster, Anthony Hopkins, those performances were two of the best I'd ever seen. And I was unfamiliar with Jonathan Demme at the time. I am not a horror guy. I've said that before on the show. I'm struggling through Scary Month, although it's been pretty nice. Poltergeist, then this what I like about this movie, and it falls so closely in another genre that I love very much, which is the thriller. I don't love movies like the Conjuring or. Or something like the Exorcist. Supernatural horror stuff that is incredibly gory. I like things that are a bit more grounded and rooted in the real world, which is why a movie like Silence of the Lambs is so appealing to me. Same with the movie like the Shining. Movies that feel grounded in reality, made by a prestige director, I think is actually one of the best and most fulfilling genres to watch because it really elevates it to the next level. Not saying that certain films, films like Saw and other scary movies, don't have their own qualities that people really like. But why I like these types of films, the thriller, is you can see a genre that typically isn't associated with prestige auteur directing and storytelling and craftsmanship. You get to see them really flex those muscles with this type of genre, which is the most appealing thing to me. And it's why I love movies like Silence of the Lambs and the Shining. It definitely opens a whole new new bucket of movies for me to get interested in. It's also less than two hours. Ding, ding, ding. And this movie has aged really well and will continue to age well, I think mainly because it's so clever in avoiding any real moments of gore or violence. Because of that, it's less susceptible to the usual criticisms of why a movie hasn't aged well. You watch something like the original Halloween and whatever you think about that movie, movie which it's great. But I mean, it's inarguable to say that the Michael Myers violent murder scenes haven't aged well. It's just, it's just the truth. You can't avoid that stuff. So that's where this movie really succeeds. And it will last because of that. I think it also shows that you don't need to show that stuff if you don't want to and can still make a terrifying and suspenseful movie. So there you go. That's my incredibly earnest review. Like I said, you can watch this on YouTube. YouTube @Ringer Movies. YouTube.com Ringer Movies and yeah, we will be back next week with another scary movie. God help me.