‘To Live and Die in L.A.’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey

Summary

The Rewatchables: ‘To Live and Die in L.A.’

With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan (“CR”), and Sean Fennessey
March 17, 2026 | The Ringer Podcast Network

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Episode Overview

In this energetic and deep-dive episode of The Rewatchables, Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan break down the 1985 William Friedkin neo-noir classic To Live and Die in L.A.. As part of "CR Month," the crew explores Friedkin’s return to crime thrillers, the movie’s bold cynicism, its singular LA setting, and how it both fits and stands apart from the 1980s crime canon. Along the way, they celebrate the film’s pedigree in car chases, Wang Chung’s apex soundtrack, Willem Dafoe’s villainy, and how William Petersen’s career could’ve gone supernova—or not. The discussion is loaded with insights, reminiscence, and plenty of memorable tangents, including sports crossovers, 1980s nostalgia, and the enduring allure of anti-hero cinema.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Friedkin Factor: Crime, Chaos, and Moral Ambiguity

• Friedkin’s directorial ethos: “All the films that I've chosen to make are about the thin line between good and evil... That's what To Live and Die in LA is about—the thin line between the policeman and the criminal.” (Simmons, 03:30)
• The panel admires Friedkin's willingness to make his movies uncompromisingly dark and unredemptive. CR: “Would we have the balls to make it as unredemptive and dark and cynical as this movie is?” (04:14)
• The group revisits Friedkin’s career reset: after Cruising and Deal of the Century underperformed, To Live and Die in L.A. was a stylistic, energetic comeback, stripping down to what made The French Connection work (05:16).

The Antihero Revolution: Characters on the Edge

• The leads are uniformly compromised, with no “good guys.” CR notes: “Probably the only person who's most principled might be the Willem Dafoe character in some ways.” (05:36)
• The cast’s chemistry, especially the Peterson–Pankow partnership, is praised for its authenticity, courtesy of their real-life Chicago stage backgrounds (25:04).

LA as Fever Dream: The Look and Feel

• The LA of 1985 is almost unrecognizable and becomes its own character—“nostalgic for something I never experienced” (CR, 06:07).
• Cinematographer Robby Müller’s “European eye” imbues the film with “a violent, cynical wasteland under a burning sun” (13:47).
• Real LA locations (Nickerson Gardens, Watts, Vincent Thomas Bridge, San Pedro) provide off-the-beaten-path authenticity (16:27).

The Miami Vice ‘Ripoff’ Myth & 1980s Context

• Simmons rigorously charts the overlap and divergence between Miami Vice and this film. “I didn’t see this in the theater because I was like, ‘that's bullshit. They're ripping off Miami Vice.’” (09:25)
• The panel notes To Live and Die in L.A. was dwarfed commercially by pop-culture powerhouses (Madonna, Cosby Show, Prince, etc.), and lacked star actors, dampening its box office (12:07).

Casting What-Ifs & Sliding Doors

• Petersen’s career pivot: He could have been a Mel Gibson–level star, but turned down roles in Goodfellas, Heat, Platoon, among others (22:39).
  Sean: “One of the major sliding doors in movie star history.” (23:41)
• The hosts debate whether Richard Gere or Harrison Ford would have changed the film’s impact. “If you bring in Richard Gere, it’s a completely different movie, because you’re bringing so much baggage with.” (13:39)
• Dafoe’s range and risk-taking: praised for alternating between roles like Jesus, an FBI agent, psychotic villains, and more (30:09).

Wang Chung’s APEX: Music as Character

• Iconic synth score: “I was gonna float to you guys whether we need to rename Apex Mountain ‘Wang Chung Mountain.’” (38:09)
• Legendary opening credits sequence built around their (now title) song, despite Friedkin’s objections: “Wang Chung gets in the studio… and they’re like, ‘Hey, we made a song. Just can you give this a listen?’ Friedkin’s like, ‘That’s awesome.’” (39:54)
• The band’s short-lived celebrity is cemented by the movie.

The Chase Scene: Mount Rushmore Material

• The downtown LA car chase is lauded as all-time great: “Mount Rushmore of car chases: Bullitt, French Connection, this, Ronin.” (46:35)
• Friedkin’s willingness to physically endanger cast and crew (without CGI): “I didn’t realize multiple people could have died in these car chases…Now that I’m older, I can’t believe I did it that way.” (47:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Moral Ambiguity
  “You’re not even sure who the worst person in the movie is. And I’m still not sure.” – Bill Simmons (05:31)

• On Antihero Cops
  “Chance is almost unique in just how brazen he is about it…He’s just gonna keep going down the rabbit hole.” – Chris Ryan (20:24)

• On the Film’s Setting
  “You can see the bones of this—like the fossils of it under the dirt. But it’s so gone that it’s almost like a real period piece to watch.” – CR (06:07)

• On Wang Chung’s Score
  “The one thing I don’t want you guys to do… Don’t make a song called To Live and Die in LA. … Of course, they do. And Friedkin ends up loving it.” (39:43)

• On Petersen’s Star Potential
  “He’s two movie choices away from being in the Mel Gibson, Michael Douglas, Jeff Bridges, Richard Gere, Bruce Willis zone.” – Sean Fennessey (22:14)

• On the Movie’s Edge
  “This is a super nasty and unflattering movie for every single person in it. It’s kind of an amazing piece of fuck-you cinema.” – Sean Fennessey (05:16)

• On the Sex Scene
  “He’s naked the whole time…not just like a dick shot. It’s like dick and balls.” – Bill Simmons (27:34)

• On the Air of 1985
  “Our concept of the ‘80s now is much more refined than our concept of the ‘80s was in the ‘80s.” – Chris Ryan (11:24)

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Segment Highlights & Timestamps

[03:30] – Friedkin’s Dark Vision

An exploration into the director’s maxim: policing and criminality blurred, no traditional redemption arcs.

[06:07] – Los Angeles: Character, Not Backdrop

CR’s take on recognizing (and missing) the LA of the ‘80s—a city "so far gone that I feel nostalgic for something I never experienced."

[09:25] – The Miami Vice Problem

A forensic timeline of Miami Vice vs. To Live and Die in L.A.—how the TV show’s ascendance overshadowed the movie’s initial release.

[13:47] – Cinematography & Atmosphere

Friedkin’s desire to show “a violent, cynical wasteland under a burning sun,” with the help of Robby Müller (Paris, Texas).

[22:39] – Sliding Doors: William Petersen’s Career

The hosts dissect how Petersen was on the brink of ultra-stardom—but didn’t quite get there.

[38:09] – Apex Mountain: Wang Chung

The hosts joke about renaming this segment after the band, whose score is now as iconic as the film.

[46:35] – Car Chase Mount Rushmore

Bullet, French Connection, Ronin—and here’s the wild new LA freeway sequence. [~62:00 for deeper car chase breakdown.]

[51:07] – Roger Ebert Praise

Ebert: "The car chase is an amazing sequence. The rest of the movie is also first rate. The direction is the key." (Ebert gave four stars)

[55:10 – 62:35] – Most Rewatchable Scene Debate

Nominees ranged from the opening montage, counterfeiting sequence, sex scene, to the climactic car chase and Chance’s shocking death.

[65:12] – Quinton Dailey Sports Tangent

A hilarious deep dive into why the lead character claims Dailey is better than Jordan, and what it says about Friedkin’s sports nut tendencies.

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Rich Thematic Debates

• Masculinity & Cynicism: "This is a male fan movie... The Venn diagram of people who like this—I’m going to say it was very male." – Simmons (07:01)
• Casting: TV vs. Movie Stars: “He’s a TV actor in a really important movie. He’s not good enough.” – Simmons on John Pankow (86:36)
• Crime as Process: Viewers are riveted by realistic craft sequences (“Making fake money! Watching someone do something I don't understand is just cool.” ~55:44).
• The LA Movie Subgenre: What makes a great “grimy LA” movie? They namecheck everything from Repo Man to Swingers (17:22, 45:04).

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1980s Nostalgia & Commentary

• Details like bungee jumping, old LAX protocols, gym culture, and the fashion choices are repeatedly flagged as “the most 1985 thing about this movie.” (63:12)
• On counterfeiting: “That's just in 1985.” – Sean (63:49)

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Notable Categories Covered

• Most Rewatchable Scene: Car chase, counterfeiting montage, LA bar scenes, shocking lead death.
• What’s Aged Best/Worst: The Pakistan/Middle East terrorism intro, Wang Chung’s soundtrack, 1985’s casual and sweaty cop culture; Counterfeiting as a crime.
• Casting What-Ifs: Mel Gibson, Don Johnson, John Malkovich, Andy Garcia, Melanie Griffith.
• Best ‘That Guy’: Dean Stockwell; Gary Cole (in a brief scene).
• Hans Gruber Villain Scale: Dafoe’s Rick Masters—rating between 6-8 for complexity and style.
• Double Feature: Heat, Manhunter, Thief—and Boiling Point for counterfeiting aficionados.

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• To Live and Die in L.A. is celebrated for its uncompromising style, dense atmosphere, and redefining of moral lines in crime cinema.
• The pod reflects on both the brilliance and shortfalls in casting, the almost accidental pop culture resonance (Wang Chung!), and the film’s influence on the LA neo-noir tradition.
• The “what-if” game around Petersen, Dafoe, and 1980s casting is a staple—reminding listeners how fragile and arbitrary movie stardom can be.
• The car chase sequence, Wang Chung’s electrifying soundtrack, and Friedkin’s high art/low culture balance are immortalized as high points.

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Essential Listening – Sample Quotes

• “This movie is a super nasty and unflattering movie for every single person in it. It’s kind of an amazing piece of fuck-you cinema.” – Sean Fennessey (05:16)
• “Chance is almost unique in how brazen he is about it. He’s just gonna keep going down the rabbit hole.” – CR (20:24)
• “I was gonna float to you guys whether we need to rename Apex Mountain ‘Wang Chung Mountain.’” – Simmons (38:09)
• “One of the major sliding doors in movie star history.” – Sean on the career Petersen could’ve had (23:41)
• “We probably never have another car chase like this—nobody would ever do it this way.” – Simmons (48:18)

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For Further Viewing/Listening

• Heat, French Connection, Manhunter, Miami Vice (series), Repo Man, Narc, Collateral, Boiling Point
• Listen to other Rewatchables LA crime episodes and keep up with the ongoing “CR Month.”
• Next episode: The Nice Guys (2016) – winner of the listener poll for CR Month.

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The Rewatchables: where genre, history, and pure movie love collide. A must-listen for any neo-noir or ’80s LA cinephile.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

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[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, and I predicted correctly that F1 would win best Picture, and I feel very good about it.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't believe Will Smith hit Chris Rock again. That was unbelievable. Why did he do that?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

Fucking maniac came back for more Conan up there. The sequel, the Slap. That's Chris Ryan, right there.

[Craig]

It is.

[Bill Simmons]

You can watch him and listen to him on the watch.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's true.

[Bill Simmons]

Big picture sometimes bunch of different Ringer Pots. More importantly, it's CR Month.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Let's go. We begin.

[Bill Simmons]

We gotta talk. We're taping this. Fargo's about to come up as we're taping this tonight. So this is the third movie of CR Month. We did. Sicario is the first movie and people are already saying, like, where does this go from here? Is it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it should end. I think this should be the last month of the show.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Like, we did it while we were talking.

[Bill Simmons]

Could there be a feast?

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He was like, every year

[Sean Fennessey]

I want to do like, VR experiences like in the film Disclosure, but with you inside

[Bill Simmons]

of the game, we're reenacting other stuff. I was thinking like that where they filmed To Live and Die in la. There's a couple areas that are just not far from our downtown city.

[Dave Dombrowski]

They're really obvious. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

One of them is right next to where Major Domo is basically where the entire scene before the chase scene. But yeah, anyway, To Live and die in la. The third movie of CR Month. And it's next. This episode of the Rewatchables is presented by TikTok. The online world moves fast. That's why TikTok approaches teen safety with families in mind from the start. On TikTok, teens get over 50 built in protections right when they join. Their accounts are private by default. For those under 16, direct messages are turned off. Only friends can comment on their videos. When safety comes first, discovery can follow. Learn [e-mail] guardiansguide. We've been circling this one for a long time.

[Dave Dombrowski]

This feels so right.

[Bill Simmons]

Just doing laps. It's like a 1500 meter race. Just doing laps around it, kind of surveying it from afar.

[Dave Dombrowski]

My wife was watching me watch this movie for the second and a half time this weekend and she was like, don't you think you got it by now? And I was like, I had it. I had it 15 viewings ago. It just feels good.

[Bill Simmons]

We always knew this is on the list between how much you love this movie, my love for Miami Vice in this whole era, and then Sean's love for Friedkin. We just been circling this forever. Friedkin said, all the films that I've chosen to make are about the thin line between good and evil.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what To Live and Die in LA is about the thin line between the policeman and the criminal. The best cops are always crossed. The best cops are the ones who are able to think like criminals, but for a quirk of fate, they might have been criminals. I mean, this is heat. This is half the movies we like. If there was an AI that could just go into our brains and write a final draft script, crime thriller, good versus evil and cops and criminals getting too close to the line both ways would be the sweet spot.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It would be. But I wonder whether if we had 100 chances, we'd have the balls to make it as unredemptive and dark and cynical as this movie is, which is still one of its greatest qualities.

[Bill Simmons]

Red sun rising the beginning, red sun rising near the end. Important Friedkin movie. Cause this is kind of it.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is the big comeback. This is the. I'm saving it because he had two stinkers in a row. No offense to cruising, which is obviously beloved in this house, but you know,

[Bill Simmons]

not a stink when you use the word stinker. Maybe commercially unrealized commercial.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes, misunderstood during its time.

[Bill Simmons]

Certainly a conscious uncoupling of theatergoers and

[Sean Fennessey]

movie perhaps widely reviled.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Bill sent us a picture of the Combat Zone this weekend and the hairs on my arms stood up for the recruitment.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, there's an old time Boston Twitter feed in the Combat Zone. No response from anybody.

[Sean Fennessey]

There has been a reclamation of Cruising. There has not been A reclamation of deal of the century, the movie that followed.

[Bill Simmons]

No, Saw it in the theater.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a tough one.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's a tough one, Chevy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Shit.

[Bill Simmons]

It was almost a career ender.

[Sean Fennessey]

Almost a career ender. And he just strips way back down to what got him here in the first place with French Connection for this movie, which I agree, I wrote down. This is a super nasty and unflattering movie for every single person in it. It's kind of an amazing piece of fuck you cinema.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You're not even sure who the worst person in the movie is. And I'm still not sure. All these viewings later. Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Everybody you root for betrays somebody else, tries to get somebody else killed, gets corrupted. Probably the only person who's most principled might be the Willem Dafoe character in some ways. And it's immersion not only in the language and procedures of the US Secret Service, of which there really only been like a handful of really cool movies about Secret Service agents. That plus the immersion in a now lost art form, I think, of counterfeiting money.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And an LA in a moment that, like, I can kind of recognize the city that I live in in this movie, but it's so far gone that I feel like I'm nostalgic for something I never experienced. You know, like when they're driving around, they go to like the strip clubs and the bars and the. The bridges and the scrapyards and everywhere that they're hanging out, you're like, oh, I can see the bones of this, like the fossils of it under the dirt. But it's so gone that it's almost like a real period piece to watch.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig probably didn't watch this one with Liz, I'm guessing.

[Craig]

No. She kept saying, there's a lot of gunshots going on out there.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was she sitting right next door? Like, did she have her ear against the door while she was watching it?

[Craig]

Pretty loud. I had to kind of lock in.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Well, because Wang Chung kicks in. You're like, wang Chung. We're working the speakers off.

[Craig]

Also, the car chase is quite long. And she's like, man, this car chase is going for a while.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, it sure is. Thank goodness.

[Bill Simmons]

Almost not long enough. Yeah. I would say this is a male fan movie would be my guess. The Venn diagram of people who like this. I'm going to say it was very male.

[Craig]

I did pause to show Liz her favorite show is Frasier. I'm sure you see where I am going here. I did pause, bring her in to

[Bill Simmons]

say, I'm going to.

[Craig]

I'm going to ruin this. Your favorite actress.

[Sean Fennessey]

We praise Jane Leeves on this day.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we have Jane Leeves and Pankow who was in mad about you for a while. So I'll give you my history of this movie. Was just against it when it came out. And it was a Miami Vice thing. Because I love Miami Vice. And the chronology of this movie tied to Miami Vice is really important because there's two reasons it didn't do well. One is mgm, Ted Turner, they just didn't get behind it. They buried it. Came out in November. The other thing was Miami Vice was too hot at this point. So Miami Vice is. This movie's filmed from late October 84 to late December 84. Miami Vice premieres in September of 84. Key point, Miami Vice, not successful. Year one, like culty successful. Still watched by a lot of people on network tv. Not successful though. And it was very underground. I liked it because I was an only child who was home on Friday nights a lot of the time.

[Dave Dombrowski]

There's a since myth, busted myth that there was some litigation between the Miami Vice.

[Bill Simmons]

It's just not true.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I'm just saying it's a myth. Busted myth.

[Bill Simmons]

You can see it from the dates he's filming this. He doesn't even know Miami Vice is a thing. So Miami Vice becomes successful that summer in the reruns. Back when a reruns could really like summer of 85. Summer of summer of 85. The reruns get it going. A lot of people catch up. And there's real anticipation for the season two premiere, which is in New York. Tubbs goes back, Pam Grier's in it. Our girl from Jackie Brown, 70s icon, two parter, lot of buzz. And the show hits and it's just like a massive show. The best show of season two was October 18th. Out where the buses don't Run. Dire Straits, Brothers in Arms. Maybe the best seven minutes of my life.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is this pot about Miami Vice.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'm telling you,

[Sean Fennessey]

if we do

[Dave Dombrowski]

10 minutes on Tatum after this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Hold on. Whip it out.

[Bill Simmons]

We land the plane.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Go, go. Go ahead. Sorry.

[Bill Simmons]

So that's October 18th. And we're kind of used to this. Miami Vice elevated crime, bad guys, good guys, who's crossing the line video, all the things that the movie does. Which comes out two weeks after that Dire Straits episode. And it's the first one where people are like, oh, we're making Miami Vice movie ripoffs now. Fuck this. And you could feel it. I'm telling you, like I didn't see this in the theater because I was like, oh, that's bullshit. They're ripping off Miami Vice versa. And meanwhile, it didn't. And I feel like it took for years and years for this to become what it became. Ebert will spoiling it now. I gave it four stars. Like it was critically liked, really widely hailed.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But it just didn't hit.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And let's. Let's be Honest, it cost $6 million to make this. They made it with essentially no name actors at the time. Peterson, Pankow and Defoe are not household names at that moment. So I think it made a profit. It just didn't. It just didn't pop.

[Sean Fennessey]

It grossed $17 million.

[Dave Dombrowski]

The studio itself was very uncomfortable with the ending, which will definitely get into.

[Bill Simmons]

And even when it was being rerun and it made the cable rounds in the 80s, it still felt like this is just like a better Miami Vice episode. And I really don't think it kind of took. Had the legs until the 90s from a rewatchable.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, it has some superficial similarities in that it's just like a hard boiled crime drama set in a very glamorous and wealthy city. And it's about duos, Right. And there are a lot of. There's a lot of duos and there's this huge criminal enterprise that these, this duo of cops is after. But after that, like, it's not really that similar, right?

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's not.

[Dave Dombrowski]

They've taken the law into their own hands. Slash.

[Bill Simmons]

And the hard driving 80s music is the other thing, like Wang Chung just blasting throughout this movie. There was a couple other ones from that era, like Band in the Hand was like that, that people tried to tap into whatever was going on. But I'm convinced that they released this movie like four months earlier. I think it would have been like five times more popular, like before the real Miami Vice wave. I just think it was hard to compete with it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's also. We've talked about this with a bunch of movies that come out in this first half of the decade, but our concept of the 80s is much more refined now than our concept of the 80s was in the 80s.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

So this movie feels more like the French Connection to me than it does what I would think of an 80s cop movie. Like, I don't know, Tango and Cash or something. If that's late 80s. Right. Like something that's like lot of action set pieces with guys with long hair, who's buff. You know, it's like this is more like guys who are on their Last leg trying to scam someone else out of 20 grand or, like, get revenge on a. On a. On a partner. It's not. It's not like the big Stallone, Schwarzenegger kind of action movie of the 80s.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you're also. This is one of the great pop culture years of all time, 84 and 85. And so many movies came out in 85 that we've done on rewatchables, you know, and you're just fighting for attention against. You have in music, you have Prince and Michael Jackson and Madonna and Huey Lewis and Springsteen. You just have these massive artists. TV is as big as it's ever been. And you have the whole Cosby show at that point. But then Miami Vice, HBO started at this point. Sports is amazing and movies could just kind of come and go. And I do feel. I do wonder if this movie just comes out in August, does it remember completely differently? And these gritty, like, movies, I don't think they hit like they would have in the 90s. Like, I wonder, if Heat came out in 1985, would it have hit? I don't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

I just think there was a lot more polished alternatives to this kind of movie in that time. Like, this is the time of Internal affairs and Black Rain, and you had a lot of much more stylized and, like, sleek crime dramas. And this is a really nasty, like, boots on the ground kind of a movie. And very purposefully so. Right. It's so cheap and so like, all that kind of architecture that you're talking about that feels like it's kind of ancient and covered in soot as you go through it, it's not. It is not Miami. You know, it is like it is the bowels of Los Angeles.

[Bill Simmons]

No stars either. Which, yeah, I think is important because even if there's one star in this, I don't know, does it. Does it play out differently? It's just. It's really weird to me that this movie was a more successful being there in the 80s. Why was this a massive hit?

[Dave Dombrowski]

If chances Richard Gere or Harrison Ford, it's a completely different movie because you're bringing so much baggage with.

[Bill Simmons]

Richard Gere would have been.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have a whole take on this.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we'll save it. Friedkin said he had seen Paris, Texas by Wimwenders and got taken by the cinematography from Robbie Mohr. And that was the style he wanted. He wanted the city to be portrayed as, quote, a violent, cynical wasteland under a burning sun.

[Dave Dombrowski]

So Robbie makes three movies right around this time, Repo Man Set in the punk rock world of Los Angeles, Paris, Texas, which is about two guys on their road trip back to California from the Southwest and to live and die in la. And he basically brings a European eye. So when he shows up to la, Friedkin's not like, here, do everything I tell you to do. This movie is all about its collaborators. It's all about Wang Chung, it's all about Rocky Mole, it's all about Lily Cliver, who did the production design. It's like, you guys are good at what you do, and you bring, like, a completely new eye. So all this stuff, like when Jeff and Rick are walking from the basketball game talking about killing Turturro's character in prison, and they're walking by the mural and Watts and stuff, it's like, how did you guys decide to stage this year? Like, what an eye. And it's like that outsider's eye to LA that makes this movie so fascinating to watch.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, it's high art, low culture. Like, that's my favorite thing. My favorite thing is when, like, a complete aesthete comes into, like, a really dingy kind of world. And there's, like, other people in addition to, like, Leslie Linka. Gladder, who we know is like a TV director, now, did the choreography for the dance sequence. Rainer Wedding, who is, like, a very exciting German artist and the new German wave, did all the paintings for Willem Dafoe's character. That's a choice that Friedkin made. Like, you don't have to know that stuff to enjoy the movie, but there's so much cool things to look at. Yeah. Because of all these choices that these people made.

[Dave Dombrowski]

This is what happens when you get to, like, watch number 10, 10, 15, 20, or whatever with a movie is like, I'll be watching this and, like, they'll be talking about whatever, but I'm, like, looking at the shit that's on the desk in the Secret Service equipment locker room. I'm like, oh, man, look at the drills and screwdrivers and all the stuff they've got hanging on the walls. And, like, Pankow's got to fill out a clipboard because he's putting the shotgun back. And I'm like, this stuff feels so tactile that you can just kind of like, live in it over and over again. And you always like to. This is a movie that's been completely revived because you can see it now in 4K. And you can see it. It does not look great.

[Bill Simmons]

4K is incredible.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, I had the poster ready and it didn't show up in time.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, no.

[Bill Simmons]

It's fucking bullshit. I thought we were going to have.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a great poster.

[Bill Simmons]

So we had to settle for Pacino and Kilmer and De Niro again.

[Sean Fennessey]

You get that Burning sun in that poster, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, it's a great poster. We'll have it for maybe. For the last episode of Sagamhut, Friedkin said he chose fringe areas. Nickerson Gardens and Watts Temple and 18th streets. The home of the Crips and Bloods, Slauson Avenue in South Central, the Vincent Thomas Bridge, Terminal Island Freeway, vast power plants in Wilmington, St. Louis, Obispo Prison, et cetera, et cetera.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, a lot of San Pedro in this movie.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You see San Pedro over and over again.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, you're in la, but it doesn't. It feels like in LA that there's no Hollywood shit. You think about the difference with this and Beverly Hills Cop, which comes out the year before, and it's might as well be two different locations.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I mean, they shoot like one or two things in, like, around where Beverly center is.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And then Waxman's supposed to live in Pasadena, but other than that, it's mostly like down by, like downtown or south of that, or out in Long beach or out wherever.

[Bill Simmons]

It's one of the cool things about LA. Cause like, swingers does that too. 11 years later just takes you into this different part of Hollywood and all these little tiny fringe pieces of it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Fucking cool. This was my huge case for crime 101, which I just feel like, you know, is like a solid movie, but it's shot in la, and there are so many moments in that movie where you can recognize the city that we live in. This would probably be less recognizable to anybody who was living in Beverly Hills at the time, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you say was your sweet spot when artistes film in dingy places?

[Sean Fennessey]

When aesthetes. Yeah. Go to dingy places. Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

High art, low culture.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like high art, low culture.

[Bill Simmons]

So could the jet season qualify for this or. No.

[Dave Dombrowski]

You could have just.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just.

[Dave Dombrowski]

You could have been like, that's a great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sean's contribution. Thank you. There's no. There's no. There's no artistic soul in the Jets. That's why.

[Bill Simmons]

Just want to make sure they're just.

[Sean Fennessey]

They're just low culture.

[Bill Simmons]

Friedkin almost had a 10 picture, $100 million deal with 20th Century Fox. The studio got purchased by Rupert Murdoch and it fell through. So he was back to being movie by movie. And option this Gerald Petovich Petovich who

[Dave Dombrowski]

makes a cameo in the beginning.

[Bill Simmons]

Secret Service agent who had this whole thing laid out. Freakin added the opening terrorist sequence, which we'll talk about in a second, the car chase. And then focused earlier on Chance and Masters, William Peterson, Willem Dafoe. Nobody knew who the fuck these guys were when they make this movie. And he. The Peterson thing's unbelievable. So Chicago stage actor talks him into doing it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He's 33, nobody knows who he is in Toronto.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And he goes and sees him. He's like, yep, that's the star of my movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Peterson does that and Manhunter back to back which we talked about in the Manhunter thing. And he's off. Very strange career after that. But one thing I wrote down. I don't know if you noticed this Craig. Incredible athleticism by Peterson. Like combine. I think he's like the winner of the combine.

[Sean Fennessey]

College football player at the.

[Craig]

Oh, is that right?

[Sean Fennessey]

College football player at the airport.

[Craig]

He jumps up on that railing.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes.

[Craig]

And runs down the entire thing. That's all one take. And clearly him doing it super coordinated.

[Bill Simmons]

I think there's a bunch of like that bridge chase down scene. Oh yeah, it's another one. But I think combine. He goes in as like a fourth rounder. Comes out like people are talking about him.

[Craig]

High first round Cooper De Jean kind

[Dave Dombrowski]

of vibes like holy shit on the table for him. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Also really wears the jeans in a unique way. I don't know how he does it. He's got kind of this almost seems pigeon toed but has style to him.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's like John Wayne. He's got first of all incredible jeans movie. Yeah. Dudes are just crushing every guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Jeans are just not great in this version of LA because you're talking 80, 89 degrees every day. Just a lot of like undercarriage sweat. I'm guessing he doesn't care. Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

You think this movie would be better if everybody is wearing like all birds, joggers, fairy, dressed like JJ Redick, like cr.

[Bill Simmons]

Where does he rank for your all time. He's not going to play by the rules. Characters, cop movies. I'll give you Marion Cobretti. I'll give you any Steven Seagal cop movie. I'll give you Popeye and French Connection. I don't know who else is in there.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I think Chance is almost unique in just how brazen he is about it. He's at his house and he's just like, I'm getting this guy and I don't care. I'm just gonna keep going down the rabbit hole of crime until I find my objective. So Popeye Doyle is constantly breaking what we would consider laws. Now, I wonder if it's more of a depiction of the state of civil rights in New York city in the 70s, but Chance is up there.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's a nine out of 10, but Dennis Peck is still a straight 10.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Dennis Peck is Satan. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's. Dennis peck's a full 10.

[Sean Fennessey]

I thought a lot about Caruso and NYPD Blue. Actually watching him, I feel like this is a little bit of, like a model for that too.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good one.

[Dave Dombrowski]

You felt like he was dirty.

[Sean Fennessey]

Felt like he stretched the limits of

[Bill Simmons]

what he knows acceptable. I mean, in one of the first season, one of the great first seasons ever. But he finds out about Amy Brennaman's character and just buries the info for episode after episode because he's good to have sex with.

[Sean Fennessey]

Push the limit. Yeah, a little bit on what was ethical.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I like when the cop. You just can't get a handle on him.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, I just love.

[Bill Simmons]

Get willing to get dark.

[Dave Dombrowski]

The fact that he gets to go undercover in this and be. Be Mr. Jessup is great. I love it when they. They get into. Deep into their cover stories.

[Bill Simmons]

I've always, like. I've always loved this guy. Obviously Peterson, he does these first two, and then he does Amazing Grace and Chuck, which is a reprehensible movie. It's really awful. But does feature Alex English playing an exhibition game with the 86 Celtics. There's five hall of Famers out there at the same time. Sean, I know that's meaningful for you.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Exhibition.

[Bill Simmons]

Really, really, truly awful movie. And then he's in Long Gone, which I kind of like and just kind of came and went, but is a really decent 80s sports movie. You don't like it?

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I do. I mean, this is my hottest take.

[Bill Simmons]

You want to do it now? Go.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's two movie choices away from being in the Mel Gibson, Michael Douglas, Jeff Bridges, Richard Gere, Bruce Wayne.

[Bill Simmons]

Should we go through that?

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, it's those two movies. He does those two movies, and if he doesn't do them and just does almost anything else in 86 and 87 and then makes one choice, maybe two in 89 and 90. He's probably in the Mel Gibson zone in terms of how famous he is.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'll give you the choices. He turned down Henry Hill and Good Fellas. Allegedly.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Allegedly.

[Bill Simmons]

Tough.

[Sean Fennessey]

1. He turned it down to do Young

[Bill Simmons]

Guns 2 and to do a Ken. A Kennedy's Miniseries he did play back Pat Garrett. Kennedy's miniseries he did as well. He also. So he turned down a major role in Heat. Multiple sources. But I don't know what role it was. And it's a great question of what role would he have turned down? I would assume it's the John Voight.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. Or Fichtner or.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't see him being Roger Van Zant.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. But I can't see him being Chirito at that age.

[Sean Fennessey]

Fichtner is interesting. I could see that.

[Bill Simmons]

There wouldn't have been Kilmer's part, right?

[Dave Dombrowski]

No, No, I don't think so.

[Sean Fennessey]

He also reportedly declined an offer to play one of the characters in Platoon.

[Bill Simmons]

So this is. That's true. I had that in my notes.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Like, it's right there.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And watching him, even with Dafoe, you're like, oh, my God, what could have been in that?

[Bill Simmons]

He turned down Platoon so he could do Amazing Grayson, Chuck and Long Gone.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Did he turn down the Barringer part in Platoon, or did they say.

[Bill Simmons]

They didn't say which one.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

It looks like it's unclear. He was basically like, I don't want to go to boot camp for six weeks to do this movie. And that's the other thing with him is he's kind of like, I'm doing what I want. But the thing is, within five years after turning down Goodfellas, he's playing the dad in Fear. And, like, that's how much it can change. Now he gets the last laugh, for sure. But you're talking about, like, one of the major sliding doors in movie star history.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he does. I had. So he was in Fear. He's in the Rat Pack, which I think is one of the four best HBO movies of the 80s 90s, 2000s. He plays John Kennedy in the Rat Pack.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

He's excellent in it. And that movie's awesome. It's only available on YouTube. I don't think they could get the rights to the music. So you can find on YouTube. Then he's in the Contender, which he's also really good in. But the moment's kind of over at that point. What happens? He goes to CSI in 2000 and just makes all time. Fuck you, money.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. And also had, like, 25 million people a week watching him.

[Sean Fennessey]

And the reason he works on that show is the same reason he works in the movie. He's insanely watchable. You're like. You're just locked in. When he's on screen, you want to be following along his journey, and you Care about him. Which is why. And the choice this movie makes is a crazy one in terms of what happens to his character. Sure. Cause you're so with him through this, even though he keeps breaking the rules and keeps fucking up. Like, we can talk about how much he fucks up as a character, but I think he's a great star. This is an amazing find by Friedkin to pluck this guy out because his casting director told him to go to

[Dave Dombrowski]

Toronto for him to be like, for my partner. We should get my buddy John Pankow, who's like, another Chicago actor, another Chicago stage actor. And it's like, those guys have instant chemistry, their initial scenes together. Especially, like, when he's just like, I'm no snitch. You just should have told me. Like, that whole scene in the. In the evidence locker area of the Secret Service is so good. Those guys have so much stuff going on between them. And I don't know if you get that. If you're like, here's two random guys that have never had any relationships.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's like you and Joe House breaking down con. You know, like, that's. You guys. You have a lot of history. Yeah. Who was the guy? Who was the prospect that you were talking about with House in the draft? And he was like, I knew this was going to be your guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Acuff.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We hadn't even talked about it. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We both. It was our favorite guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Adorable.

[Bill Simmons]

Honestly, we're usually aligned. So I mentioned this before, but Peterson has lived kind of in my relative neighborhood and would see him in different places, and it was everything he wanted. Where he's just clearly like, I don't act anymore. I made so much money. I have a family. I'm just living my life. I'm having a great time. So it all worked out for him.

[Sean Fennessey]

He did great.

[Bill Simmons]

But I do feel like, could he have been Costner?

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, it's on the table.

[Bill Simmons]

Could he have been Crash Davis? Yes.

[Dave Dombrowski]

You could see him as Roy in Field of Dreams.

[Bill Simmons]

Could his next movie been no Way Out?

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, yeah, I think there's like, can you hold a baseball bat? Can you hold a gun? Can you sit in the President's chair? Those are, like, big steps for movie stars.

[Bill Simmons]

Realistically, could you drive a car can? Like, it's him, Costner, Mel Gibson. There's only a few of these guys like this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And not like a short guy. Like, he's. He's got some size to him. He's strong. There's a sexiness to him. I think, like, some of those guys wouldn't be able to pull off. Like, the one little shows up at what's her face is Darlene Flugel's house. He's like, I'm ready. Do you want to just do this now? Craig? Craig wants to do his flex category now. Speaking of William Peterson.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I think it has to hit the Dan Campbell skill for. Holy shit, Are they really going for this?

[Dave Dombrowski]

I do think this is like the

[Craig]

gratuitous 80s nudity, triple axel. This scene where he walks in, she's already naked. He gives her a shirt.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Craig]

She puts the shirt on, then gets out of bed. Bare ass, hand on the ass to the straddle, to the lay her down to the silhouette of.

[Bill Simmons]

But he's naked the whole time.

[Craig]

Yes. Underneath the straddle, you see the shadowed silhouette of his genitalia.

[Bill Simmons]

He's going full hanging dong.

[Craig]

It is.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not just like a dick shot. It's like dick and balls.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Like, apparently freed Quinton was like, make it as real as you can stand.

[Sean Fennessey]

I listened to the commentary. He said, I'm setting the camera here. Do whatever you want. And that is why I would use a slightly different category for this film, which is I have the Stephen Seagal

[Craig]

Hard to Kill award.

[Bill Simmons]

I literally had this in mind too.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think you need a better intimacy coordinator in 2026.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Robbie's like the lights on sets.

[Bill Simmons]

It's one of Those in the 4K Blu Ray where you're watching it.

[Craig]

It's unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

He's naked because you see his. You see his whole franks and beans. Yeah, she's definitely naked. And then she jumps on and they found. And you're like, wait a second. Was there, like, did anyone have any sort of.

[Dave Dombrowski]

We're in Donald Sutherland, Julie Christie zone?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, Very clearly. Yeah, Peter. So I this had this movie had a 40th anniversary, and Peterson took his sons because I think he remarried and has sons. And he was like, yeah, I'm excited to take my sons. I'm a little nervous. And I'm like, whoa. I think your sons are getting a little extra surprised with that little popcorn

[Sean Fennessey]

break during that scene.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Is that my mom?

[Bill Simmons]

Are those your balls?

[Sean Fennessey]

The funniest thing about that scene, too, is that in the final three minutes of the movie, freakin's like, we're going back to that scene and flashback it.

[Bill Simmons]

Unbelievable. But, yeah, he's really going for it this whole time. Great job by Peterson.

[Craig]

I love that he gives her the shirt and she puts it on the case.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's just so she could, like, he, like, lift it? You know, he's like, see her ass a little bit. It's great.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cause we always talk with actresses, like, man, why didn't they have a couple more? And I think it's more understandable actresses because there was less good parts in the 80s and 90s, 2000s. You just get replaced by the next person. It's really hard to find a leading man like a Peterson, Costner, Gibson, name it. And it felt like he should have been on that. Now he lives on in a couple of these movies. And then CSI hits the jackpot. So I'm sure it worked out fine. Dafoe is at the very beginning of his journey. Four Oscar nominations. He ends up with. What do you think for IMDb credits? What number?

[Dave Dombrowski]

He's. He works a lot. I would say over 150.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I would say 127.

[Bill Simmons]

You want to give an exact number?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Let's go.

[Bill Simmons]

170, 163.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So 84 to 88 is in streets of Fire, To Live and Die, Platoon, Last Temptation of Christ, the Mississippi Burning. Yeah. So we have the KKK with Vietnam. We have Jesus. Jesus.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We have this movie, and we have Michael Pere's Bomb with Paul, but he's the good guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mississippi Burning. Right. Isn't he partnered with Hackman? I think he's partnered with Hackman.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I think I've only seen Mississippi Burning.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think he's an FBI agent in his square. And that's the thing in Streets of Fire. And in this movie, he's the two of the most evil villains you could ever imagine. And then he plays Christ and an FBI agent. He had range. And then in Platoon, he's also kind of Christ.

[Bill Simmons]

And then famously loses the Joker because the studio decides to get bigger and goes for Jack Nicholson. He gets this whole run. And Ben the Joker, but he gets

[Sean Fennessey]

to play Green Goblin in Spider Man.

[Dave Dombrowski]

So both of these actors do things in this movie that I think more famous. More famous actors would just be like, I can't. We have to have some level of redemption. Dafoe blowing Jimmy Hart's head off after being like, buddy, you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And chance doing like 15 things in this movie, you would just be like, hey, man, like, I got a career to think about. And I do think in some ways, I wonder whether or not the kinds of movies that Peterson was doing in this ascendancy, like. Like To Live and Die in Manhunter, are almost like, well, this guy is too Dark.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it fucked him up like from the post Manhunter. I think he really had some issues trying to figure out what to do. This anonymous stage actor.

[Sean Fennessey]

Those choices, those choices that he made in the late 80s too kind of show him like trying to shift away, like trying to do more lighthearted movies.

[Bill Simmons]

It's interesting. I wrote down for Dafoe really unique ceiling basement potential because he's been great in some stuff. But I also think body evidence and speed 2 are two of the worst performances by a good actor ever. Like ever.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I don't think either of those said

[Bill Simmons]

Speed two is like a truly singularly atrocious vill scale performance. May even be in our villain scale. Like a 0 out of 10. And body evidence is just a famous clunker with Madonna. It's like a basic instinct gone wrong. It's so bad, it's actually not even fun to watch. It's not like, oh, this is like can't be bad. It's just awful. There's nothing good about it. So when he's bad, he's bad. And when he's good, he's really good. And he's got an interesting place in Hollywood history at the.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's done a really good job in the last 15 years of basically saying like, okay, I work with Sean Baker, Robert Eggers, Wes Anderson. He kind of just lifts up. He still makes a lot of movies with Abel Ferrara who he's been friends with for like 50 years.

[Bill Simmons]

It checks out.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. But you know, he was in an experimental theater troupe in the Worcester Group. He's an unusual dude. And the fact that he has managed to balance like really interesting arthouse movies with the most mainstream movies of all time like Platoon and Spider man is pretty fascinating.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I. I really like him in this movie.

[Dave Dombrowski]

One of the great faces.

[Bill Simmons]

I actually think you could argue he's more of a good guy than some of the good guys.

[Dave Dombrowski]

That's what I'm saying. I mean like Rick at least like maybe don't go.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe don't go to my site where I'm counter doing counterfeit money. There. Old guy with two guys dies before he retires.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Bianca in To Seduce Max Waxman. You know, he's like, you're trying to fuck my lady. You know, but like for the most part is like a pretty stand up guy, they think.

[Bill Simmons]

Good artist.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. Talented painter and also his own worst critic. Like his paintings on fire. You know, you'd love to see that kind of really like, like living up to your own potential.

[Sean Fennessey]

He is also a professional Counterfeiter and murderer. Just for the record, you guys are fluffing him a little bit. Just want you to know he is a rank criminal.

[Bill Simmons]

I. I had a feeling. The sex scene, they probably went for it to the point where even Friedkin was like, yeah, I'm gonna have to take this out.

[Dave Dombrowski]

The one where they're videoing it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, where they're videoing it. Where it's just like an abrupt cut.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Where freedom is like, yeah, you're probably right. We don't want to get an X here.

[Sean Fennessey]

This movie is horny.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Darlene Flugel, mid-80s babe we talked about earlier, To Live and Die Running Scared, which we've already done.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

She's in Crime.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Score Story, which is Dennis Farina's wife, Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It just never. I really wanted it to work. It just never quite got there. She was in Hunter and she was Sly Stallone's wife in Lockup, a movie that I like and maybe five other people. Sly Stallone Goes to Jail.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Did you and Kyle do Lockup or.

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm just kind of waiting for my dance partner for Lockup.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

It's got. Have we talked about Lockup, Craig? It's got the best sports scene in a movie. That's not a sports movie, I think, ever.

[Dave Dombrowski]

What do they play?

[Bill Simmons]

They have this jail football game, and it's fucking spectacular. Like, they could run it on NFL Network and people would think it was just a 1958

[Sean Fennessey]

take.

[Dave Dombrowski]

You up on that offer.

[Bill Simmons]

It's spectacular. Sliced alone, it's really great.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel a nice, like, why are

[Dave Dombrowski]

we showing Lockup on a Thursday night?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, there's some, like, cross promo with Kyle that you could potentially pull off if you can get.

[Bill Simmons]

Kyle's not in a Lockup. I've tried.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I've done some. Some. It just never got kind of like CR with some of his CR Month movies.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God, the poll.

[Sean Fennessey]

You.

[Dave Dombrowski]

You want to talk about it now?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we just. Well, we're going to take a break in a second, but we should mention the poll.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We had a poll for the fourth movie and we had some bangers in there, and now people are like, can you just do all 12 of these movies? But the winner ended up being the nice guys.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And I think an indication that the. The post 2010 generation has a voice as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Don't fucking suck up to them.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I'm not sucking up. I got my own month.

[Craig]

I don't care.

[Bill Simmons]

1985 movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's trying to stay young, you know?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. I was surprised Goonies didn't win, but I was too. But Nice Guys is a big, big favorite of people listening to this pod, as it should be.

[Bill Simmons]

People love Gosling, including Craig.

[Craig]

Can't wait. Very excited.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Very excited.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, we're going to take a quick break. Come back with the rest. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Hiring can be so time consuming. Not quite as time consuming as Titanic, when James Cameron seemed like he was making that for most of the 1990s and just painstakingly go over every detail in the movie. You don't quite have to do that with hiring, but it's still an important part of the process. I've certainly been on that side many times. And you want to find the right person. You want to take your time. Well, good news for all you hiring managers out there. You can easily skip the drama and just use our old friend ZipRecruiter. Try it out for free to see how effective it actually [e-mail] Rewatchables what makes ZipRecruiter so effective? How quickly it works with its smart matching technology. It does most of the work for you, finding top talent in minutes. And there's always a growing pool of candidates to choose from. With over 320,000 resumes added to the site monthly, use ZipRecruiter. Save time hiring 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter to get a quality candidate within the first day. And if you go to ziprecruiter.com rewatchables right now, you can try it for free again. That's ZipRecruiter.com Rewatchable ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire this episode is brought to you by Claude from Anthropic. The last thing you want when you're watching movies, an ad. It's disruptive. It takes you out of the experience. It ruins the whole thing. Well, same logic applies to AI. Some AI providers are already introducing ads into conversations, which means the tool isn't just helping you think, it's trying to sell you something. Anthropic is committed to keeping Claude ad free. No sponsored answers, no hidden agenda. Just a thinking partner for people who care about deep work. Try it for free at Claude AI Rewatchables. Wang Chung.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I think you forgot to. Well, sometimes it's two words, sometimes it's one. Wang motherfucking Chung.

[Bill Simmons]

Wang motherfucking chum.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. Huh?

[Sean Fennessey]

Break it down. Put us. Put us in the space.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Does anything get you going More than this, man. Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

I. I actually was gonna float to you guys whether we need to rename Apex Mountain Wang Chung Mountain. Wang Chung Apex Mountain. Like when they do the couch, it's like the Rose bowl presented by State Farm. State Farm Rose Bowl. Is it just a Wang Apex Mountain? They have this movie and they have Breakfast Club, She's Burning Fire in the Twilight as they're trying to escape from the principal. Just in the same year.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I wish that you would take some of your hard earned money, buy a sponsorship of a college bowl game, and rename it the Wang Chung Apex Mountain Bowl. North Texas versus Hawaii.

[Bill Simmons]

And they would only have to play Wang Chun music throughout the entire thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

I appreciate how your announcer voice now is just Robert Loggia.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's Robert Loja doing Monster Trucks.

[Bill Simmons]

I love that. So the story is Friedkin's like, I want you to do all the music for this. As you mentioned, very collaborative. And he's like, the one thing I don't want you guys to do this. Is it your only instruction? Don't make a song called To Live and Die in la because there's no way I'm putting in the movie, so don't fucking do that. Wang Chun gets in the studio, they come out and they're like, hey, we made a song. Just can you give this a listen? Freaking listen to. It's like, that's awesome. And films a whole new first seven minutes of the movie built around this song. It sounds like something I would do managerially. There's no way we're doing that. Unbelievable.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's really great.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you imagine being in the. In the freakin's office when the Wang Chun guy's like, do they. Were they British? Where were they?

[Dave Dombrowski]

They were British. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, it's like, hey, William, we have a song.

[Sean Fennessey]

Also. This is Hurricane Billy. Like, he's not some shrinking violet. You're like, oh, yeah, sure, sure. He's like, known to be like, fucking don't do it. Do not put the song To Live and Die in it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Do you know what, though? He has said that this is the easiest movie he made, which is insane with this car chase and with some of the stuff that's in there. And I think probably this is the purest reflection of his talent is to just be like running and gunning. I don't have a lot of studio executives messing with me while I'm shooting. They eventually messed with him when it was over. And then, like, he obviously just like, loves the collaborators he worked with on this because why Else would he just be like, chung Wang. You guys got it. You have the entire. The canvas is yours. It's blank. And if you guys want to call a song to Live and Die in la, let's do it.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, this was my music that 81 86. This was. This was the early alternative with the Cure and the Smiths, all New Order, all those bands. This was not like a major band. They had like two songs that were like, reasonably popular. Everybody Dance All Days, Everybody. That song wasn't out yet.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Oh, okay, so that's after this. Dance All Days. It was on the third album. This is the fourth album, basically.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, there were probably 50 Wang Chungs. And for some reason Friedkin's like, these guys.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And just saw like. What was your Wang Chung background?

[Craig]

All I know is, everybody, Wang Chung Tonight is the only song.

[Dave Dombrowski]

But you were fucking driving around LA listening to this soundtrack yesterday.

[Craig]

Yeah. Nothing better. I made Liz listen to it last night.

[Bill Simmons]

I actually, when I watched it last night, I was like, this is the

[Dave Dombrowski]

best look at the sunset.

[Bill Simmons]

When I watched the movie last night, I think it. It. The first. It's like the first 22 minutes, 24 minutes. I don't know what it is that it's like you're just riveted the entire

[Dave Dombrowski]

time because there's three montages and three beginnings of the movie. And it doesn't matter. It's like so good and, like. Didn't it.

[Craig]

But he.

[Sean Fennessey]

He fucking does this over and over again. It's like Tubular Bells in the Exorcist. It's Tangeri Dream and Sorcerer. Like, he. He just has incredible taste. And he doesn't have, like, the same composer that he uses every time. Every time he starts from scratch and he's like, here's what I think this movie's vibe is. And he just like, plucks Wang Chung out of relative obscurity. Not total obscurity. But they weren't. Like you said, they weren't huge.

[Dave Dombrowski]

The co producer on the movie is the editor. And there are scenes that they are obviously cutting around the music. Like it's. It's early music video style where it's like. Like when Chance is chasing Turturro through the airport. The music comes in right as the siren goes off at the metal detector. And you're like, oh, man. Like, I'm fucking pumped for this.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, the bummer is that they gave Fire in the Twilight to Breakfast Club. Cause there's like four scenes that they could have easily whipped that one into. So My wife was like on her phone, like, half watching. But when the opening credits came up and they kicked in with the different shots and the colors and the graphics, like, there was just Nothing better. In 1985, this was. We peaked.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

This is even like Miami Vice, Michael Mann, like that kind of like this was at another level with the graphics and the colors. It was just great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Robbie Muller, you know, like, that's the same thing. He just plucked this guy more or less out of Germany. I guess he had come to America at that point. But, like, it's a perfect fit. And they never worked together again. This is the only movie they made together.

[Bill Simmons]

It's so funny because Wang Chong again came and went as a band. They probably had five songs that everybody could remember, plus Breakfast Club and this movie. And yet they have a much longer tail now because of the two movies. Right. Whereas, like, Duran Duran was like a way bigger band. Right. And can still tour and do all these different things, but was never integrated into a movie like this. Tangerine Dream was another one.

[Sean Fennessey]

You haven't seen the Bone Temple.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you mean?

[Sean Fennessey]

28 years later, the Bone Temple, which just came out prominently, uses the music of Duran Duran.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I want to check it out quite heavily.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, wow.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's like the one record that Ralph Fiennes character has.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's really cool what they do with it.

[Bill Simmons]

It would have been funny if Friedkin was like, there's this guy Morrissey I've been fascinated by. I think he can do all the music for To Live and Die in la. Just would have gone completely different.

[Sean Fennessey]

Would have been a little sadder.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. It would have been a different vibe.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I mean, there's a couple others that I think maybe. I think the Fix maybe could have done a ver. I don't think it would have worked

[Dave Dombrowski]

as well as Wang Chung in the research, like, the alternative. The person that they first approached for

[Bill Simmons]

this was Miles Davis, right? Yeah, that man.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I don't know if it's before or after this.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think maybe right before.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay. And so he's like. And that's a completely different film. If Miles Davis is blowing on like all this stuff.

[Sean Fennessey]

And the movie does still have basically Chicago Blues, which a lot of freakin movies have. They're still like some like cops in a bar stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the perfect pick, though. Like, if he got a Howard Jones, Howard Jones was like a little more like. I don't want to say campy, but more romantic.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

If he had gone to Duran Duran, I feel like it Would have been too big. The cure would have been. The mood wouldn't have been right.

[Dave Dombrowski]

What if they'd been like Danny Elfman's Midnight Run score? It would have been too, like Barbandy.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was gonna say Oingo Boingo. Would have been possible.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's like almost too happy. There's something about Wang Chung where it's happy, but it's also. There's something deeper and sinister underneath.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I mean, I love the Midnight Run squad, but it is.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, Midnight Run's great.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we mentioned Los Angeles CR Month. Grimy LA movies. This den of thieves.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Repo man.

[Bill Simmons]

Repo man. Terminator 1. Training day. The first Fast and Furious. And Fast forward a little bit, too. You guys always laugh at Fast and Furious. You just laugh. You say you're a man of the people. What about all the Fast and Furious lovers?

[Dave Dombrowski]

I'm sure they're out there and I welcome them. I welcome the CR months.

[Sean Fennessey]

They've received 10 films.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, they did great.

[Bill Simmons]

Anybody else you would have in the LA Body Double.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, Collateral Body Doubles.

[Bill Simmons]

Kind of happier, though. It's. It's like the.

[Sean Fennessey]

Except when that girl's getting drilled.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like the wealthier era of L. A. Though I wouldn't say it's. It's grimy.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Would you say Collateral is underground K town? It's.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're in my double feature corner here.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's. It's close. Yeah, it's close.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, there are plenty of, you know, 40s and 50s LA noise, too, that do this too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Some of the people would throw in Chinatown.

[Dave Dombrowski]

What's the one that Maxine's based off of or like, take is drawn from?

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, the Wings Hauser movie.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, shoot. Not Maniac Angel.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, not Angel.

[Bill Simmons]

I know the Wing Hazard.

[Sean Fennessey]

Angel is definitely. Also has some. Is in. Is in Maxine as well.

[Bill Simmons]

I like Wings Houser, while you look this up.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Mount Rushmore of car chases, Bullet, French Connection, this.

[Bill Simmons]

Ronin, Ronan. That's what I had for the Four. Yeah. It's a pretty unassailable list, right?

[Craig]

No, Fast and Furious.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Are you fucking with him or is it.

[Bill Simmons]

I did think about it. I think for most people. Because the Fast and Furious movies all kind of blend into each other. You're just talking about, like, a relatively normal whatever movie. That then all of a sudden there's this added control. Car chase in the movie. I will say I think those are

[Dave Dombrowski]

the four contemporary movies. It's not long enough probably, to qualify for Mount Rushmore, but I think One battle car chase is pretty incredible.

[Sean Fennessey]

Agree.

[Bill Simmons]

Friedkin had a crazy quote. I won't read the whole thing, but it was basically talking about he can't believe he did this car chase. And he was talking about some. Oh, he's talking about the movie Taken. It was one of the interviews I read, and he was saying he really liked Taken. He thought Taken was good. So. Welcome aboard, William Friedman. Even though you're dead, it's just a really nice day. Another Taken fan out there. But he was saying what they did with it, there was more cgi. And he's like, we didn't have that back then. We had to put people's lives in danger to make this stuff. And he's like, I was young and stupid and I didn't really realize multiple people could have died in these car chases we were making. But I was like, go, go. Let's push the envelope. Let's push the envelope. And now that I'm older, I kind of can't believe I didn't do it that way. I did it that way.

[Sean Fennessey]

That.

[Bill Simmons]

That was interesting.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I appreciate his sacrifice and the risks he took.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. I don't. Because when we watch movies now, we're like, these guys aren't actually in danger. I think they really were in danger.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I think especially in the French Connection. It's incredibly dangerous, what they did.

[Bill Simmons]

They're going like 90 miles an hour.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, that one. This one is a little bit more controlled because they were able to shut down the highways and then the productions take over the highways. So it's a little different. But if people have not read the Friedkin Connection, it is one of the very best director autobiographies. It is amazing. You can hear his voice as you were reading him tell the stories. And he's a. I don't give a fuck director. So he tells really great stories about this stuff. But he did a lot of dangerous stuff. I mean, Sorcerer, if we ever do that episode, there's a lot that is. Was insanely dangerous.

[Bill Simmons]

Next week of CR month hadn't let us down.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I mean, I. Once we open it up to the people, you can't really. Can't really complain.

[Bill Simmons]

You guys turned me on a Sorcerer. I somehow was never on my bingo card for years and years.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I think it's another movie, though, that got incredible with its DVD release, definitely.

[Sean Fennessey]

But, you know, we talked about it on Star Wars. It was like, it came out two weeks after Star wars, so it kind of like culturally got pushed aside.

[Bill Simmons]

The car chase thing. We're just probably never going to have another one because nobody would ever do it this way. And I actually feel like that Mount Rushmore could stay. It's one of those rare ones. We're in basketball. You never know. But I think with car chases, there's. See how you challenge two from the

[Dave Dombrowski]

Bourne movies that I would throw in there. The first. The one in the Mini. From the first one and.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the last. Mission Impossible had a great one too. The one in Rome or the Fallout one, whatever. The one from two movies ago, number

[Sean Fennessey]

seven has one in Rome, which is incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

That one's great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I think it's really hard to crack in. I think one battle gets in the conversation because what it did we just never seen before. It was like. And it was in a new terrain. And the way that even just the camera moving up and down, we'd not really seen that specifically, I guess a little bit in Bullets with the car chases in San Francisco, but it was different in that way. It's just hard to iterate on because, I mean, Friedkin has two of the four best ever, like forever, and it's hard to displace either of those.

[Bill Simmons]

And he has the best fisting scene. He does Cruising. I think that he doesn't get a lot of credit for that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you bring your handkerchief Today?

[Bill Simmons]

Chris is wearing yellow today. That's the FCR month. Every movie starts. $6 million budget made. 17 million 116 minutes. Craig.

[Craig]

Not bad. 5, 10 minutes. Maybe you could have shortened it.

[Bill Simmons]

Could have gone 110.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's a plus 16, you think? Plus 10 you're good with?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I need 10 more minutes if Jane leaves. So I need to extend the time.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Way more interpretive dance.

[Bill Simmons]

Roger Ebert, four stars. Called the car chase an amazing sequence. The rest of the movie is also first rate. The direction is the key. Friedkin has made some good movies, put some in parentheses. And some bad ones. Cruising. Deal of the century. Come on, Raj.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Did Raj ever revisit Cruising?

[Bill Simmons]

Probably turncoat. But he says this is his comeback, showing the depth and skill of the early pictures. You agree with that, Sean?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's definitely a back to basics movie with him. And the reason why he strips it down so much is so that he can control more of the movie. And it's not a very expensive movie at a time when a lot of cop movies are getting very expensive. But I liked one other thing that Raj wrote, which is something that I will echo. I like movies that teach me about something. Movies that have researched their subject and contain a lot of information casually contained in between the big dramatic scenes. This is technically in my. What do you like about movies Thing. You know, where it's like. Yeah. You're in a world of counterfeiting that is so specific and focused and interesting. The way that he shoots it and shows the master's character going about it. But it doesn't have him sit down and be like, here's how I counterfeit money. Like, that never happens. He doesn't really talk through his process. It just shows it to us in

[Dave Dombrowski]

an incredibly cool way. With Wang motherfucking Chung playing. And it was so legitimate that fake money from the set of the movie got into circulation.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a crazy stat.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to the categories.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Most rewatchable scene. I have opening credits and Wang Chung read into Peterson Hotel chase. Guy was doing it for Islam. Culminating. And I'm getting too old for this.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. Now predates lethal weapons one year.

[Sean Fennessey]

Before lethal weapons. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on. Two years. Right? 87 leaf weapons.

[Sean Fennessey]

Two years.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Two years. Yeah. And we get a brief off camera. Ronnie Reagan could have gotten him. Could have gotten him in the card game.

[Sean Fennessey]

Very rare thing in a movie like this to use a real sitting president. And you'd make his. Make him a character in the movie

[Bill Simmons]

opening credits into the art burning and the bungee jump. This whole stretch. I wrote down this. 4K is so fucking good. Peterson did the jump for real.

[Sean Fennessey]

He did.

[Dave Dombrowski]

In jeans and a vest and chucks.

[Sean Fennessey]

He did.

[Bill Simmons]

I gotta say, I don't. This could almost be a new category. The we sure this is safe enough for our lead actor? Because it was just the one strap on the sprint bike.

[Dave Dombrowski]

They're not like bungee jumping. They're calling it BASE jumping.

[Bill Simmons]

Is BASE jumping just one leg? I don't know. That made me nervous.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's also like a bunch of drunk cops. Like, who's measuring the wire there? Like, who's doing the safety checks?

[Sean Fennessey]

I heard Friedkin say they used a new piece of equipment to shoot it. Like a new crane which is now kind of standard operating. And so I think there was a lot of time spent on making sure that this was safe. But if this was Eddie Murphy, I don't think he'd be doing the jump for real. No.

[Craig]

BASE jumping now means you have a parachute.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Cops in a bar. I've said it before. I've said it. I'll say it again. I'll continue to say it. Something about the 80s and the early 90s when cops all got together in A bar. It just seemed like the most fun place on the earth.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Those guys are all getting Blackout and then driving home. It's one of the best. It's like 11 in the morning.

[Bill Simmons]

What's going on, brother?

[Sean Fennessey]

This is literally how I was raised. Yeah. In bars. My dad was great.

[Bill Simmons]

And two guys are probably gonna get mad at each other at some point during the night, but it's fine. And somebody's gonna have to be walked out when they stumble out of the two girls.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And it's still the afternoon. I noticed this time that the sign on the bar says Bird sanctuary.

[Sean Fennessey]

My dad, when he was a younger cop, was in a social club called the Raccoons. And they were just like, you know, 10 cops who just like to drink a lot. But they had like a whole ornate world that they had created around the record.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Fidelio or.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't. I didn't see any masks in the home. But, you know, they had a lifestyle.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

The counterfeit money scene, watching someone make money from scratch with Wang Chun music blasting is really all I need in life. What a great three minutes.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's unreal.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I agree with what Ebert said, too.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Blowing on the. On the plates, you know, to reveal them.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. We should. We should just have that rolling at the Sycamore studio, like, at all times, you know? Yeah. When you're. When you. There's a TV on, it's just only showing that sequence. And also the Peterson sex scene.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna. I'm gonna bring that up to Jeff Chow tomorrow.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I initially had that as my Floyd Gun dolly before settling on something else. But I love watching somebody do something. I don't understand how it's done. And it actually seems realistic. Like, as he's making it, it's like, oh, shit. Oh, now he's doing the paint.

[Dave Dombrowski]

When he's mixing up the paint.

[Bill Simmons]

I could have watched it for. Honestly, I could have watched it for another 25 minutes. I was so interested in how they did it. I was like, oh, now he's gonna dry it.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's the coolest artists at work. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And Defoe is great too, at just seeming like he's been doing it non stop for the last 10 years. Like just effortlessly, totally Torturo gets chased down in lax. Craig mentioned the Peterson. Just looking. This was his combine reel.

[Dave Dombrowski]

This is also. That shot specifically is essentially like stolen footage. Lax was like, do not.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they got mad.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Run up on the escalator or like the people mover.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. They broke. Are you nostalgic for the days where somebody could just run through a metal detector.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Are you nostalgic for the idea? And this goes basically up to 2001, obviously, but, like, the idea of going to the airport and being like, I'm gonna buy a ticket to D.C. today. You know what I mean? They're like, 40 bucks. And it goes, like, all the way through kicking and screaming where he runs in and he's like, I want to go to Prague.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

But I'm probably glad that we have some safeguards, you know?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I think it's safe to say I'm nostalgic for a time when it was reasonable that men would run through them in movies. Now, if that happened, you'd be like, that will never happen.

[Bill Simmons]

If someone ran through an airport now, they would just be gunned down.

[Sean Fennessey]

They would.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Turturro almost gets killed in prison. I have. As a rewatchable scene.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And then you did.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a whole other movie that I would have signed up for.

[Sean Fennessey]

Shot Caller Turtle.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Him in prison for three months, navigating people trying to come after Cody.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Should have known. Like, as those guys are walking across the yard, he's like, who are they going for? Somebody getting hit. Who's getting hit?

[Craig]

Man, everyone's clearing out around.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Hey, it's you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. We've seen so many prison movies, we're like, dude, get up. Start running. Yeah, the fight scene with Dafoe and his. What was the name of his Max?

[Sean Fennessey]

Waxman. Waxman.

[Bill Simmons]

No, the henchman. Dafoe's henchmen.

[Sean Fennessey]

The black guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Him fighting the three black guys.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Oh, Jeff.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, Jeff.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they. Him and his. But it was a two on three. Yeah, I think they're plus when they had the fanduel odds underneath the screen as the fight's about to start, I think they're like, plus 490. It's like, no way these guys are getting out of this. And they turned the Miami heat again. Yeah. Amtrak into the shooting into the chase scene. Just 10 out of 10 on. How'd you do this? As you're watching it. How'd you guys do this? Tough beat for the FBI. Undercover FBI agent with fake diamonds just getting has his gun down with his pants down around his ankles. Not how I'd want to go.

[Sean Fennessey]

Nope.

[Bill Simmons]

Chance raids Turturro. I like that shot. When they're on the opposite sides of the wall. It's so good.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's my great shot, Gordo.

[Bill Simmons]

It's great. Chance gets killed. Craig, had you seen this movie before?

[Dave Dombrowski]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Were you expecting that?

[Sean Fennessey]

One.

[Craig]

Not at all. Something you can only do if it's probably not a star.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Right. In 1985. Richard Gere.

[Craig]

You can't shoot Richard Gere in the face with a shotgun.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's still shocking to watch.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I mean, it was shocking to the. To the studio. They were like, you better go back.

[Bill Simmons]

And yeah, they shot a fake. You could find it online on alternate ending.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's atrocious.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the only time an alternate ending actually ended up being the end of the movie is Fatal Attraction. That I can remember out of like, ones we've done on this podcast where the studio's like, no, we're fucking redoing that. And Ann Archer's gonna kill Glenn Close in the bathroom. And that's how we're ending this movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm sure there are some other examples I can't think of off the top of my head though, where they re cut it and that's what we got.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just saying for the episodes we've done.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's the only one I can remember where they literally redid it. Final scene for rewatchable. You're working for me now.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. He's got the sunglasses on.

[Bill Simmons]

Petco's dark.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would add two more.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Let's hear it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think the murder of Max Waxman

[Dave Dombrowski]

getting shot in the dick.

[Sean Fennessey]

When he gets shot in the dick. And then Defoe says, your taste is in your ass. Which I don't. I don't totally know what that means.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's like 18th century Cameroonian.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then very shortly thereafter, the meetup at the gym when they're all like, getting changed. And. And Willie Peterson's like, yeah, I've got a friend down in Hollywood goes by the name of Donald Duck. Yes.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. I have a lot to say about this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Change the conversation.

[Bill Simmons]

Why are they changing clothes?

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's like they're gonna work out the 80s. The Guys Gym is this.

[Bill Simmons]

Just show up with the workout clothes on.

[Dave Dombrowski]

That's not how I think it went in the 80s.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're on your way to a workout and you're wearing adult clothes, right?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, but I'm not going to get fully nude and then like with like.

[Sean Fennessey]

You should get nude right here. Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I think. I think locker room, like, behaviors have changed.

[Bill Simmons]

That may be the most 1985 thing about this movie, which we're doing in a second. What do you have for most rewatchable scene?

[Dave Dombrowski]

The only other thing I wanted to add was

[Bill Simmons]

hanging dong.

[Dave Dombrowski]

No, it's. It's right after The.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is Floyd Gondoli.

[Dave Dombrowski]

When she's just like. She's trying to peddle all this information to him, and he's like, you know, uncle Sam doesn't give a shit about your expenses. If you want bread, fuck a baker. And, yeah, their whole conversation where she's just like, you know, what would you do if I stopped giving information to you? And he's just like, I'd revoke your parole. And walks out. Like, it's just. It's a great moment. Character moment between those two.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, how about when she's like, yeah, my kid's coming up from Vegas. And he's like, cool, yeah. Can you get that information for me?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Oh, you got a kid.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Seems like a stable life for him.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's not a super nice guy Chance.

[Dave Dombrowski]

The chase, it starts with Peterson at the bar drinking a high life and a shot. Then it cuts to the train going across, you know, the desert part of California, like a Sergio Leone movie. And just builds and builds and builds from Union Station on.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's one of the craziest scenes in movie history. They shut down a highway over a weekend in Los Angeles. Imagine if just the 110 or the 710 was just shut down for a week. They were like, sorry, William Friedkin shooting a movie across five miles of road.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And we got 900 that are like, extras.

[Sean Fennessey]

And the cars are going in the opposite direction. So it's like an optical illusion when you're watching the movie. Look, the cars on the left are going the wrong way and the cars on the right are going the wrong way. And he only did that to make you confused as an audience member because the whole sequence is so disorienting. That's a wild choice in the movie. It's such a crazy chase.

[Bill Simmons]

I have the chase number one, too. It's an unbelievable seven minutes. And I love Peterson's acting in it, too.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, he's so.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And they do a good job of establishing from the beginning the first time we basically see him, other than the Secret Service thing. First of all, when he's on the roof, he's really close to the edge of the roof. Like, for real. I don't. I think it's like, it's probably two feet away from falling to his death. He doesn't care. And then the next time we see him after that, he's bungee jumping. So you're just like, oh, this guy's a fucking maniac. Okay, we've established that. What's the most 1985 thing about this movie Lax, definitely. There's the. When they finally finish the chase and the three guys are in the background and the one guy has his radio on his shoulder.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

That's just like Pure 85. The gym, workout machines. They flag Trans World Airlines and Continental. You can see in the background next to it. Bad times for all. There being called a Miami Vice ripoff. Wang fucking Chung. And then I have one more.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I have one more that I bet is the same as you.

[Bill Simmons]

What is it?

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's chance getting out of the car chase, coming back to Ruth's house, and talking immediately about Quinton Daly and Orlando Woolridge to her.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, well, that. I have that coming up. Hold that thought.

[Sean Fennessey]

I do as well. I mean, counterfeiting cash.

[Bill Simmons]

Hmm.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's just in 1985.

[Bill Simmons]

That would just have fake.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I wonder how long that went for. I did not do a lot of counterfeiting research, admittedly.

[Sean Fennessey]

And imagine this is around the peak, right? Because the technology is around where they put like, the.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Like a little band in your money that was just, like, now. Easily verifiable.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. There's now printings on it.

[Bill Simmons]

We just got better at stopping.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

My last thing. There's some stealth gay scenes in this movie. Gay moments and that are just very 1985.

[Sean Fennessey]

You mean like homoerotic or.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, for instance, his girlfriend, they have. She's got her dance performance, and then Dafoe goes and goes to kiss her, and it looks like he's kissing a man the way they film it. And I almost wonder if it was a male actor and they flipped it. There's that other scene when he stands right with Peterson, is like, you got a package for me. And he like grabs it. But it just fit in with how weird the 80s were with that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Even just the use of kabuki dance, which is like this ancient Japanese style where men who are performing female characters, like. I think he's very purposely kind of trying to blend all.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And to Craig's point earlier, where it's like, whoa, the nudity. It's like there's a lot of male nudity in this movie as well.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that leads us to the Floyd Gandali Butter in my ass, lollipops in my mouth award for something I just enjoy. You mentioned the Quinton Daily MJ thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

I.

[Bill Simmons]

It turns out I really enjoy realistically horrible sports opinions and neo noir movie thrillers.

[Sean Fennessey]

Excellent.

[Bill Simmons]

This Quinton Daily take is just insane believable.

[Dave Dombrowski]

First of all, it's never mentioned. How deep do you want to go?

[Bill Simmons]

Right now the deepest.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay,

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm listening.

[Dave Dombrowski]

First of all, it's never mentioned that Chance is from Chicago. He's obviously from Chicago. I have an unanswerable question.

[Bill Simmons]

Except he's wearing a Mike Webster Steelers jersey in the first time we see him.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I wear like lots of different hats. I think it might have just been like in 1985 he had a cool jersey and he was wearing it all the time. But you're right.

[Bill Simmons]

But why Mike Webster? Why wouldn't it be like Terry Bradshaw or Mean Joe Green?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Maybe he was.

[Bill Simmons]

I do end up with the like, you know who I love the center on the Steelers. Weird.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I don't know. I found the game. Yeah, he's talking about.

[Bill Simmons]

It's pretty easy.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I mean I had to look on basketball reference for a minute.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Quintaly had one awesome game and it was right as they were filming this movie. And we know Friedkin, huge NBA guy maniac NBA guy who almost like bought. What was the team he almost bought?

[Sean Fennessey]

Celtics. Was it the Celtics, Right.

[Bill Simmons]

In the late 70s, back when you could buy a sports team for 12 million bucks.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Well, here's my, here's my unanswerable question about.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay, so linguistics. The Fed who's posing as the guy buying diamonds supposedly arrives at Union Station at 4:45pm Call it what, 90 minutes of the chase and the abduction. Right. Chance has to take his car to a body shop because he can't return it to the motor pool. Then he has to get somehow back to Ruth's house where you gotta call it 9pm Something like that. 10pm but somehow in that interim time, he has found out the score of the Pacers Bulls game from October of 1984 and has identified that Quinton Daly is really the number one option on the Bulls, not Michael Jordan. And when would you have gotten the highlights? When would you have seen the box score?

[Bill Simmons]

I almost feel like it might have been a day later he saw in the paper.

[Sean Fennessey]

Unfortunately, none of this holds water because at the beginning of the movie we learn that it is the end of December.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes, I know that. But like if we're looking for a Quinton Daly 30 point performance, it from the time they filmed this movie, it is basically William Peterson knew about this game and came in on. On.

[Bill Simmons]

I see. My, my take was, I think they wanted some sort of ad lib thing when he shows up with her.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Be like, all right, talk about just something stupid. And Friedkin had been excitedly telling people about this Quinton Daly game.

[Sean Fennessey]

See, I think it's the exact opposite. I think it is. I think it is freakin. Who wrote the screenplay, who is an NBA obsessive, who has a lot of sports takes, who's like, I'm zagging so hard on Jordan.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Jordan's overrated.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's like Quinton Daleyza. Yes. And he's like, quinton Daly was my guy. Despite the fact that Quinton Daly, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we got to talk about this, too.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, it was. Was convicted of.

[Bill Simmons]

It was such a. He was such a bad guy.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He's kind of the Richard Chance of the Bulls.

[Bill Simmons]

I knew he was a bad guy as like a, you know, a fledgling teenager in New England. Like, he. He was. Had, like, this rapist situation in San Francisco. I think it might have been more than one. And it was really controversial that they drafted him.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And it was during a time when we didn't have social media or anything. And it was like, huh, should the Bulls be able to put this guy in their team when this happened? And it's really bad. It's like an awful story. People were protesting in the 1980s. Like, think about that.

[Sean Fennessey]

But it is almost like an interesting character choice that this is this scumbag cop. Well, like, we have to keep remembering at least, like, keeping this woman prison basically, to feed him information that he liked Quinton Daly. You know, it's like. It's almost. It's a character trait.

[Bill Simmons]

Very talented scorer. Went to University of San Francisco, which is where he had his situation.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And then infamous for ordering food to be delivered to him on the bench during a Bulls game.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think there might have been some drugs with him, too, but it was drugs with most of that team, ironically.

[Dave Dombrowski]

So.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So I wonder, like, did Friedkin, maybe he liked the Bulls, and maybe he was like, I don't. Why the fuck would we take Jordan? We have Quinton Daly, like, really felt strongly about this.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think he was more like, I'm writing a movie about scumbags. What's a real scumbag opinion I could put out there in the world in one of these characters.

[Bill Simmons]

I love it.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a. It's an idea.

[Dave Dombrowski]

You're ascribing a lot of, like, writerly intent to the. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Could be wrong. This. That was in my. What's age, the worst?

[Bill Simmons]

Or he just loved Quinton Daley.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's possible. It's possible.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he went to a game a year earlier and was like, oh, my God, this guy's. He's better than anybody.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Anyway, those Quentin Daily highlights from that pacers game, the three point gamer up.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's on YouTube.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he was. He was a little Andrew Tony ish, actually with this game. He was like a power two guard. Yeah. What's age the best. It's also probably what's aged the worst. The Middle east conflict being a key opening scene seems relevant right now.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I have that. In which it's worse.

[Bill Simmons]

Making counterfeit money has just aged the best as a viewing experience, as we discussed calling people. Amigo.

[Sean Fennessey]

Love it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I gotta bring it back.

[Sean Fennessey]

We should bring it back. Let's do it. Yeah, let's just make it.

[Bill Simmons]

When I see you and you come over big.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Hey, Migo, let me tell you something, amigo. I'm gonna get Rick Masters.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a few. I have actually a surprisingly many more, but what'd you have?

[Dave Dombrowski]

So when William Peterson introduces himself as Mr. Jessup to Rick Masters, he turns to Pankow and he goes, and this is my associate, Dr. George Victor. And I just. It's never commented on again, but it's like, doctor of what? What if Rick Masters had been like, doctor, I have this weird bowl. Can you take a look at it? Like, did they really think that through?

[Bill Simmons]

He would just say, it's an honorary doctorate. I got into college.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Sure. But that would have been like one extra layer of the lie that you didn't need.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a prostate doctor.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I love the remnants of the 1960s that kind of thread through this movie. Especially Waxman being a hip ex hippie lawyer. And in the. Pankow talks about this in interviews. But you can kind of get the sense from all these 1980s cops that they were Vietnam veterans. And there's just the kind of the sort of waste of the 60s washing up in LA.

[Sean Fennessey]

Definitely his care. His partner who gets killed is meant to be one of those guys. Like a roughneck, basically.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Absolutely. And I love Rick being a bisexual fine artist who just has like, a guy with a bomber jacket killing people. As a psychic, that guy Jack is just, like, always spitting tobacco.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jack, Horror, legendary LAPD detective.

[Bill Simmons]

You have any wood stage? The best.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Sort of related to that, being able to pretend to be a businessman and having the contents of your glove box be enough proof the fact that they're like, I don't know about this guy. So his girlfriend goes and looks at his glove box, and I'm like, I'm seeing some receipts here. You know, the Caimans.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's not tan enough.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's really good. Calling money paper, which is something that obviously got very popularized in the last 20 years. And then just Willem Dafoe as a villain. I just feel like he's become one of the great villains of the last 50 years.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I also had Dean Stockwell playing a defense attorney who's having a beer on his lunch break during a trial. Grimes, in general, is just an awesome character.

[Bill Simmons]

Dean Stockwell also in Legend of Billie Jean this year as the senator.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And in Paris, Texas. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And soon to be in Married to the Mob, completing his comeback and getting an Academy Award nomination. Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

So those are some of mine.

[Bill Simmons]

I also have bungee jumping. I have Jane leaves with an underrated hot girl run here of To Live and Die in la. Marla, the virgin from Seinfeld who ends up sleeping with JFK Jr. And then Frasier's girlfriend. Always liked her.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is sort of Floyd Gondoli, sort of like, always aging the best. But I enjoy when an insane person in a movie has an artistic hobby.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, like Jack Torrance, you know, and his writing. You've got Toni Collette's Miniatures in Hereditary. You've got Gary Oldman being really into Beethoven. And the professional, like, usually. That's like, a great little character trait where they can, like, really appreciate fine art, but they are insane.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's a good one. That's good. We'll put that in our AI Movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's no AI Movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I like when villains refer to themselves as the third person.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Rick Masters doesn't do that, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Everyone knows Rick Masters won't do a deal without upfront money. It's like you're Rick Masters. You say that about your. What am I? I also wrote down 80s movie lawyers dressed like Dean Stockwell, who always had a cocktail and looked like they were about to play tennis. There was that. This was a weird era for the perception of lawyers. Was like, between tennis games, they were just gonna go to try, like, a Mercedes convertible. Yeah, right.

[Sean Fennessey]

You have, like, a Lacoste polo, but with a suit.

[Bill Simmons]

The decision to show Peterson but not the body in the dumpster was really good.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

When he opens the thing and he. And his face changes, I just thought that was a really good shot.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love how he discovers it where he sees the whole, like, the bullet hole in the bottom of the dumpster, too. That's really good.

[Bill Simmons]

I like having a witness out of jail and then losing the witness is just a great movie thing. It's like, oh, my God, he lost him.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What are we gonna do?

[Dave Dombrowski]

We shouldn't have gone to the hospital. That was just really dumb moves.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the decision to show, oh, Jimmy, who was too old for this shit, two days to retirement, but he was getting too close. I just feel like this has been ripped off in 30 other movies. I don't know if this was the first one.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Last job, McBain.

[Bill Simmons]

This is like ground zero for I only had two days left.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He's got his fucking fishing rod.

[Bill Simmons]

This came from an email. Oh, shit. I deleted. Who wrote this? Now I feel bad. All right, I'll give him credit.

[Sean Fennessey]

The next time it was me, Bill. I wrote the email.

[Bill Simmons]

Just a reader wanted to point out he was really excited we're doing the movie that when Chance walks into the building to get the judge to sign the writ to get Deter out of prison, unsupervised, released, he walks into 444 S. Flower St. The same building Neil and his crew walk out of in heat just prior to the all time greatest shootout scene ever.

[Sean Fennessey]

Great stuff.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Isn't that weird?

[Bill Simmons]

He really wanted you to know this. That's great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Downtown. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Great shot, Gordo.

[Sean Fennessey]

You had so many eye through the windshield during the car chase. Unbelievable. Amazing, iconic shit. Dafoe looking at his burning painting in the opening of the film. Peterson bungee jumping cars driving on the opposite sides of the road. And you already mentioned the Rastafarian dudes with the boombox at the end of this, which is like in the big wide rain shot.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, I had the shot when Chance goes to see Ruth at the topless bar and she's working the door and it's like all green and all red and she's leaning back against the counter in the like skin tight dress is the hottest anyone's ever looked in the world. Like they fucking broke the meter on that one. And that scene is apparently like very improvised. And they were just like, just fucking explore the studio space. And it's like if you miss your mark, like it won't make it into the movie, but who cares? And it's so good. I just want to say one other thing about the car chase in regards to the cinematography. Robbie Mueller was like, I don't know how to do this. So the car chase is shot by Robert Yeoman, who would go on to shoot like all of Wes Anderson's movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, wow.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I will add to that, just last night won the lifetime achievement award at the American Society of Cinematographers. Robert Yeoman.

[Bill Simmons]

I wanted to mention the bridge sprint chase scene because I like sometimes when they go wide.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. And it's.

[Bill Simmons]

And it just looks like I'm watching a game for 10 seconds. We'll take one more break and then we'll do the rest of the categories. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company.

[Dave Dombrowski]

No matter how you do game day

[Sean Fennessey]

on the couch, in the crowd, or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits

[Dave Dombrowski]

right in with a full lineup of

[Bill Simmons]

non alcoholic beer styles.

[Dave Dombrowski]

You can enjoy bold flavors all game long.

[Bill Simmons]

No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Stock the fridge for tip off with

[Bill Simmons]

a variety of non alcoholic craft styles.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com near Beer Fit for all times.

[Sean Fennessey]

Spring break isn't what it used to be.

[Bill Simmons]

It's better this spring. Stay three nights and get a $50 Best Western gift card. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Dennis Benihana Awards scene, ceiling location, Bakersfield counter, counterfeit spot. That wide shot of, like, what's going on with that street behind and this warehouse in the middle of nowhere. I just really like that spot.

[Dave Dombrowski]

That's. That's the Ringer 4.0 headquarters. Just us just outside of Indio.

[Bill Simmons]

Just a washer, dryer.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I'm in the horse trailer. We got a dryer.

[Bill Simmons]

Sounds great. That's when things have gone wrong.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like rooftop of the Beverly Hilton hotel is pretty good.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I had the burger place where chance tells.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, great. Burger place.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, they're going to rob ling and they come out with burgers and then sit in, like, barber chairs.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. With like a whole city that's also big Kahuna, too. Good use of food. Kid Cudi Pursuit of happiness award. We get the opening scene. Obviously.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I have dance hall days.

[Bill Simmons]

Or dance all days.

[Sean Fennessey]

All days, too.

[Bill Simmons]

At Shipwreck Joey's Cabaret.

[Dave Dombrowski]

God, look what they took.

[Bill Simmons]

What's it like there on Wednesdays?

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's gone. It's gone. They took it down.

[Bill Simmons]

Used to be a special country.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, this used to be a really special country.

[Bill Simmons]

The Amanda Dobbins award for best piece of real estate.

[Sean Fennessey]

Hold on. Oh, I feel like you've been interested in real estate over the years.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

And so before we get to this category, like, I. Would you consider buying a piece of property in that area and reopening Shipwreck Joeys? Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Why don't you ever do that?

[Bill Simmons]

Shipwreck Billy's.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Like, you could definitely afford to open a series of nameless dive bars. That I would.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a cabaret. Sure. So there's like a show. Yeah, like a show with with performers.

[Bill Simmons]

I gotta say, that bar seemed great. Good security. Yeah, I thought the stage seemed nice and big. Lighting is a lot of room for the girls.

[Sean Fennessey]

What's the entry fee right now?

[Dave Dombrowski]

With inflation, A$50 in 1985, it's probably like 15 bucks now.

[Bill Simmons]

Shipwreck Joey's Cabaret. Ever taking a road trip?

[Craig]

Where was it? Where's that? Oh, Long Beach.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, roundabout. Amanda Dobbins award for best piece of real estate. Chances. Malibu house.

[Craig]

Way too.

[Bill Simmons]

I have some questions.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sick.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like about 12 houses down from the pier. 80s. Much cheaper in Malibu, but you're still looking at this. You're still looking at about a mil.

[Dave Dombrowski]

So it's there. There is a moment in Malibu where the celebs haven't started driving prices.

[Bill Simmons]

We're getting close. Madonna has The Wedding in 85 with Sean Penn. That's kind of a tipping point. By the time we get to the late 80s.

[Craig]

Is he living in LA?

[Dave Dombrowski]

I mean, it's a great question. Skimming.

[Bill Simmons]

So I freeze framed it. Yeah, the skimming I think is. Is a good thought. I freeze frame it. It was a three story house. Wasn't like one of those, like one story, but. So he might have just been renting like one of the floors. Yeah, possible. Not that far away from Neil McCauley's house.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's very similar to the place where Hemsworth's character lives in crime 101. Yeah, very similar.

[Dave Dombrowski]

But he lives in a series of like condos. Like if I would have bought that. And then a couple years later, Martin Riggs is living in a trailer on the beach, I think in Malibu, like in Lethal Weapon. But this is nuts. This guy has like a fucking.

[Bill Simmons]

We got away with this in the 80s and 90s because we didn't have the Internet yet. And people would be like, you know, it'd be cool. We had a shot where the character's looking out in the water. And now, now that we know the logistics of la, it's just there's no way this guy would be making the drive home on PC. First of all, he would have had a drunk driving accident and crossed the divider and killed himself with multiple people.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's another mirroring Michael Mann moment too, where it's like, of course this guy lives on the water so he can look out into the ocean and have an existential think on how he's spending his life.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I mean, he was in a prime spot. Speaking of prime spots, the Sean Fantasy Award for stealth homage. That gives every movie nerd a criteria Orgasm.

[Sean Fennessey]

I got a fucking doozy. Yeah, okay. Of human bondage from 1934 is playing on the television being watched by John Turturro and Jacqueline Giraud in that sequence, that's with a movie that you hear when chance shows up. So it's about a young man, played by Leslie Howard, who finds himself attached to a cold, unfeeling waitress, played by a woman who will ultimately destroy them both. This is Bette Davis's fifth film. It's her first Academy Award nomination. We're on the eve of the Oscar. She got this nomination via write in vote. So this movie is important for a few reasons. One, this is the year of Frank Cappers, that Happened One Night, which is one of only three movies to win all five of the top five awards. Do you know the other two movies?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Silence of the Lambs.

[Sean Fennessey]

Silence of the Lambs is one.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I know this. We just. We did this on Rewatchables. What was it?

[Sean Fennessey]

One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest.

[Bill Simmons]

God damn it.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's picture, director, actor, actress, and screenplay. This was the first of Only Sinners

[Bill Simmons]

is gonna take it. We haven't. We're taping after the Oscars. Sinners will be the fourth.

[Sean Fennessey]

Probably not, because it's not nominated for Best Actress.

[Bill Simmons]

It's still gonna be the fourth.

[Sean Fennessey]

This was the first of only two years in which writing candidates were permitted a response to the controversy surrounding the snub of Bette Davis. And for Of Human Bondage, she was snubbed. And then they created a write in ballot and she got written in. So because of that, Claudette Colbert, who was the star of It Happened One Night, thought because Bette Davis got this incredible outpouring for her write in ballot that there was no chance that she was going to win the Oscar. So she gets on a train to go to New York the night of the Oscars, and just before the train takes off, they announce her name at the Academy Awards. She runs back to the award show, accepts her award later on in the show, and then goes back and the train holds for her. And she. She gets on the train at the end of the night and goes to New York.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I thought you were going to say she drove the wrong way down the 110.

[Sean Fennessey]

No. Anyway, of Human Bondage, it matters. That's fucking Friedkin.

[Bill Simmons]

So you don't think Turturro's character would have been watching a 1934 artsy movie?

[Dave Dombrowski]

I did like.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, we know his girlfriend is an actress.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

So she's watching Bette Davis in her breakout role.

[Bill Simmons]

I love those stories about when nobody cared about the Oscars as much. And like Goldman choosing to go to the 1970 finals or something over winning his first Oscar.

[Dave Dombrowski]

The other criteria, orgasm that I had was just that when right before he gets shanked or attempted shanked in the yard, Turturro's like, what's the movie tonight? And they're like, oh, I don't know, some galactic shit. And he's like, I hate that sci fi shit. And I always thought that was a

[Sean Fennessey]

diss of Star Wars.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Star wars for taking out Sorcerer.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Sierra's got a flex category.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I got two here. I don't think either of you guys would have one. So I. I'll just. This was fun because I feel like the Ed Norton reverse dunk awarded. Did this movie need a random sports moment? And we were right there.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on, we're so close.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Rick Masters isn't going to fucking go out and play one game of pickup

[Bill Simmons]

with the homies just sitting there.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Just install the Princeton offense, dude. Throw some backdoor passes.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, Sean's got the white shadow behind him. I'm reasonably sure that was the exact same court that the white shadow played Michael Warren's character, Bobby Wagham, in the greatest one on one game ever filmed on tv in like the fifth episode of the White Shadow. I think it's the exact same.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Is it really? Yeah, I think it's in Watts.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

So I had that. The Dennis Peck relationship test I bring up because I think this is the first place where Peck melts in the face of the sexuality shared between Rick, Bianca and Serena. I think he tried to get that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he can't get there.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And they're just like, whatever you want. Dennis, like, come on in. He's like, so I'm not destroying anything. And they're like, no, this is about dance and art and funny money, man. I just think it would have been

[Bill Simmons]

like, all three of us are up for whatever. He's like, wait, whatever you want.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. So this is where Peck loses its kryptonite.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I ask you, where are you at on Polyamory in 2026? Just general thoughts.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this a new movie theme?

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I've just. Just been hearing some things out in the world that have. That have raised my eyebrows about polyamory

[Dave Dombrowski]

in the wider world. Not Bill?

[Sean Fennessey]

No, not with Bill. No, of course. Just like. Just like it's. It seems to be expanding.

[Bill Simmons]

It's. It's been an untapped movie slash HBO TV show type of theme.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. We need, like, consenting adults, but for 20, 26.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, here's the thing. As you know my theory, and I think the COVID little break all of us had, I think people have lost their minds and we're ready for a show like that. Yeah. Just couples just saying, fuck it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Big love. But just set in Hancock Park.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that sounds great. I watch that Butch's Girlfriend award for weak link of the film. I have Quinton Daly a second time. Quinton Daly got 30 points. This guy's unbelievable.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's great.

[Bill Simmons]

Ball players got a gun like a howitzer, man. 30ft, boom, boom.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Michael Jordan.

[Bill Simmons]

But backup choice. Can we have the Pankow conversation?

[Dave Dombrowski]

No. Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

No, let's do it. Let's do it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

What's your problem with him?

[Bill Simmons]

He's a TV actor in a really important movie. He's not good enough.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm sorry. I agree with Bill.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Transformation.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not a good enough actor. He's not good enough.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Good actor.

[Bill Simmons]

No, not for this.

[Sean Fennessey]

I. I think he's not interesting enough.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's interesting because, you know the story that. That Peterson tells is that. That Sinise read for the part of Chance.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

And that he didn't get the job, but that he recommended Peterson to Friedkin.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

And that the reason that Pankow gets the job is because Peterson recommends him.

[Bill Simmons]

But you think Sinise should have been the Panko.

[Sean Fennessey]

But it should have been Sinise.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I have an alternative for who it should have been because we get it basically a year later in the Untouchables, and it's Andy Garcia.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's too handsome.

[Sean Fennessey]

A little pretty. Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

So you got to get an ugly guy who's not.

[Bill Simmons]

It doesn't have to be any high

[Sean Fennessey]

nondescript, and there's something a little sinister underneath him.

[Bill Simmons]

So I was going to do this. I'm recasting Couch. Can I offer you John Malkovich?

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, yeah. Another Chicago guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's bring some fucking firepower.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Another stage guy, Malkovich going. Taking us for a ride in the Panko part. I just think the performance. No, I think it's the performance because

[Dave Dombrowski]

I think he's asked to do things a lot. Like he's sitting in the backseat during that car chase, about to puke, crying like it's a. It's a good. I think he's good in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you just love the movie.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Can I tell you what my book.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's the evidence.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Sure. The rest of his career, he's never

[Sean Fennessey]

done a part like this ever again.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I'm just gonna throw that out there.

[Sean Fennessey]

Found him to be enjoyable on Mad about you.

[Bill Simmons]

Likable actor. I just think he's miscast. I think this guy. I think there has to be a little bit more of a dark side established before all of a sudden we have this crazy swerve at the end of the.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's incredibly funny on episodes. Did you watch that show with Matt LeBlanc on Showtime where he played like a. Like a head of hbo? Basically the head of Showtime. He was really funny.

[Bill Simmons]

One other guy I was thinking was Kelsey Grammer.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cheers was going right.

[Bill Simmons]

Cheers said like he had just started to be on Cheers.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Are you picking guys based on hairline? I was.

[Bill Simmons]

No. I was just trying to think of, like, out of the box. Non leading man, but just people who are around.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like Jeff Goldblum could be another one. Too tall, but too tall. It's tough. Stanley Tucci is not Stanley Tucci yet, but I think Tucci could have been a good one.

[Sean Fennessey]

What about Will Patton?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if he was Will Patton yet.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was he when he was in no Way out, like two years later?

[Dave Dombrowski]

What about Michael?

[Bill Simmons]

He was.

[Dave Dombrowski]

What about Michael Bean?

[Bill Simmons]

Will Patton's good. Michael Bean?

[Sean Fennessey]

Too handsome Michael Bean. This would be coming right off the Terminator.

[Dave Dombrowski]

What about Bill Paxton?

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting. Very interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting. Not bad.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay, thanks.

[Bill Simmons]

Not bad.

[Sean Fennessey]

Glad I could.

[Craig]

I love this game.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Get there with it.

[Bill Simmons]

I really like Malkovich, My Butch's Girlfriend

[Dave Dombrowski]

for this is the first eight minutes of this movie. It's cool. I like it when they're like, reagan's going to come play poker. It has no relevance for the rest of the film. And I think it would be a bigger deal if someone tried to suicide bomb Ronald Reagan. I think the US Secret Service would be busy and not going after Rick Masters.

[Sean Fennessey]

So, as I said, I listened to the commentary and he talked about this. And this also was shot after the fact. This was not in the original script along with that title sequence that you were talking about.

[Bill Simmons]

It was after Wang and Chung came

[Sean Fennessey]

over and said, hey, I think the reason for it is very logical, whether or not you think it works. I like the sequence a lot, but it's from a different movie.

[Bill Simmons]

It's also the 80s and everyone's on cocaine and nobody cares.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it's more Die Hard than it is whatever this street level crime movie is. But it being a Secret Service movie, I think it would be like, a little confusing to a general audience. Like, why is the Secret Service so involved in the treasury and counterfeiting, and they needed to, like, establish the bonafides of these agents and what they do.

[Dave Dombrowski]

But you could maybe throw that away of like, oh, I haven't done much bodywork recently. I'm just working on counterfeit. Like, you could probably get that with a line true. And not have a guy explode over Los Angeles and then have it be like, yep, back to Quentin Daly highlights.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think they also want. It also helpfully establishes the relationship between the two partners and that, like, the older guy, you know, who's kind of like, at the end. I think it's effective, even though it is tonally a little different from the rest of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Quinton Dale has got a gun like a howitzer, man.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Boom, boom.

[Bill Simmons]

What stage the worst cops as incredibly fun hangs? We don't really get that as much in movies and TV these days. Not like in the 2000s. I don't know.

[Craig]

Not until I write my script.

[Sean Fennessey]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like we're hanging out at the death car with six cops.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I think it's more like this behavior is probably clinically alcoholic.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, cop play in mid-90s is when we start to.

[Sean Fennessey]

It shifts a little.

[Bill Simmons]

Flip.

[Craig]

What's the current group that you want to see in a bar, having drinks after work in a movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

Podcasters, obviously.

[Bill Simmons]

Podcasters, podcast producers.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, they know how to talk.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Emergency room doctors. I like it when the pit guys have a beer after the show shift.

[Sean Fennessey]

Those are some grizzly stories, though, no?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, but, like, it's.

[Craig]

They.

[Dave Dombrowski]

They. They deserve one.

[Sean Fennessey]

They do.

[Dave Dombrowski]

They deserve a cold one.

[Sean Fennessey]

They do. We salute them.

[Bill Simmons]

I would say NBA assistant coaches.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's good for.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Fun group. What stage is the worst buying burning expensive paintings for real instead of just doing cgi?

[Sean Fennessey]

Rainer Wedding actually painted that painting that

[Bill Simmons]

he burns, and they said it was worth, like, real, real, real money. And Ben Simmons, who watched the first half of this movie with me before deciding he had to go to bed because he had an exam the next day, was like, that painting's fucking awesome. I can't believe they burned it.

[Sean Fennessey]

He painted it for the movie, and Friedkin speculated it would have ultimately been very, very valuable.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe do, like, some sort of backup. Friedkin said after this movie, his agent fired him. His dear friend and agent, Tony Fantazzi. He left William Morris, signed with a series of agents and managers who were no more effective, and it was very, very sad for him.

[Dave Dombrowski]

That's age. The worst.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that story bummed me out. Stick with Friedkin, man. He did French Connection, the exorcist the Cruising Until Love and Died. L. A Weird little. Can't get fired after that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Weird little skip here where he goes rampage. The Guardian after this too. Two movies that I will defend, but are very flawed.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the cocaine level here with Friedkin?

[Sean Fennessey]

I thought it was in the 70s. Yeah, I didn't think it was in the 80s. He's like getting married to Sherry Lansing. Like he's become. He's a very. He's much more of like a. A citizen at that point.

[Bill Simmons]

What stage? The worst, they have a deleted scene where Vukovich goes to reconcile with his wife and they show in the special edition dvd. And Friedkin says he doesn't remember why he cuts it, but regrets doing it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, it would have been given the. The Vukovich character a little bit more depth, I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he probably wanted less pankow in the movie. It's like, fuck that guy.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Jesus.

[Bill Simmons]

This is a really bad wood stage. The worst, the bridge that he bungee jumps from was the Tony Scott bridge. Oh, that's tough.

[Sean Fennessey]

I didn't know that.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, My biggest wood stage is the worst is. You can see them on YouTube is the alternative ending where Chance is only shot in the chest, gets lives and Chance and Vukovich are exiled to a Anchorage, Alaska Secret Service base where they live in a hut together. And they're just sitting there at the end of the movie. And then there's a long tracking shot that shows the Alaskan outback. But it's very funny that Friedkin was like, do you guys want another ending? I'll go to Alaska and shoot you another ending.

[Sean Fennessey]

So funny.

[Bill Simmons]

Fucking maniac.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wait till the Sorcerer episode.

[Bill Simmons]

The Hans Gruber score villain ranking. Defoe is Rick Masters.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Six, seven, something like that.

[Sean Fennessey]

I had eight.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I would have eight.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He's a painter, you know. He's got a lot of redeeming qualities.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I forgot I had the Marion Cobretti pizza cutting award for. Why didn't anyone that said stop the star from doing this, the painting? Shouldn't somebody in the set been like, yo, man, we can't actually burn that, can we? Go wide shot where he's about to burn it, and then we go wide shot and replace the painting.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know. It's. Life is art, you know, Ruffle a

[Bill Simmons]

hand of Rubin and Partridge Overacting word. I have Panko here. What are we gonna do now?

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's good, though. It's good shit. That's what you would feel like.

[Sean Fennessey]

I got Robert Downey Senior here as Thomas Bateman. As well.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Did you like him in this movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

I did. He's just putting a little mustard on it every time he gets into a scene.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I was just coming to see you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

You must be a mind reader.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's very amusing, but it's a lot. It's very noticeable. Every time he shows up.

[Bill Simmons]

You have a flex category.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mine was the It's a book about medals award. Belatedly best quoter exchange. I'm getting too old for this. Two years before Lethal Weapon.

[Bill Simmons]

CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. How to Stake award. I. I have multiple Peterson, Don Johnson things here. And I think they're intertwined here because his movie's coming as vices. I think what we said about Costner before I also think could have been the case for Don Johnson. And I'm just endlessly fascinated why? Some careers go one way. These two guys. Don Johnson kind of peaks with Miami Vice. Can't get out of it. Misses that window where he can make movies. Peterson gets freaked out by the first two movies he did and just zags. And then you have Costner who's just hitting it right down the fairway just like, yeah, Bull Durham. Cool. Let's do that one. Field of Dreams sounds great. Bodyguard. Like he's just doing Clint Eastwood movie. Okay. And just has the wherewithal over and over again to make these picks that continue to vault him. Now he made some crazy ones too. Right? He does Dance with Wolves worked out great. Waterworld did not. Postman. By the mid-90s, it's over. But I'm always interested these guys that are basically the same.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And then somebody sports.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like you have quarterbacks that are around the same and then it can come down to coach offensive line, the owner, how much money you're spending, not getting injured. But with actors, it's really like all these guys were kind of next to each other and then some went up and some didn't.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, there's like a whole strain of them. The ones that I was thinking of were Mel, Michael Douglas, Jeff Bridges and Richard Gere. Those were like. And I guess Bruce Willis to some extent. But then you also have like William Hurt. You've got Raul Julia. You know, you've got like a band of actors in the 1980s who were

[Dave Dombrowski]

sort of like Jeremy Irons.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jeremy Irons, like B tier stars always in good films. And he. Tom Barringer is kind of in that 100% in there.

[Bill Simmons]

He's another one. He's like somewhere to watch over me. When someone watched over me when we did that one. But my hottest take was Peterson and Don Johnson could have just switched careers in 84. And I think it would have been absolutely captivating to see what happened.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And I think transplanted Johnson.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Peterson could have just been Sonny Crocker.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I agree.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think Don Johnson could have been in those two movies. And I think if he had been in those two movies, I don't think he would have gotten freaked out by them like Peterson did. And I think he just would have been right on the Costern corner from that moment on. And that would have been that. And it actually would have been better for him. And it would have all ended up with him on csi.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Did he ever do one of those procedural films?

[Bill Simmons]

Nash Bridges.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's right.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Of course.

[Bill Simmons]

You have a hottest take.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I got two. This movie is what he would feel like with no Natalie Portman character. Essentially has that kind of interesting LA crime saga. Two sides of the law coming at to a head. Has incredible set pieces. It basically has minus the fat of the Natalie Portman character or the Dennis Haysberg character or something like that. My other hottest take is just that this is a better movie than the French Connection.

[Sean Fennessey]

Certainly more watchable. To me.

[Bill Simmons]

It's tough. Early 70s versus.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I mean, it's not as influential, obviously.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. The French Connection has not aged well as a watch. It's not that fun to pop on. Which is weird because the Exorcist is insanely watchable and it's only two years later. But the French Connection, I don't like revisit a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you have a hottest taker?

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I. I did one already. It could be Mel Gibson.

[Bill Simmons]

Best that guy. Word. Have a little switch for this one. After all Craig's bitching. Have it separated into Casuals, Real Ones and Deep Cut.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Craig]

Damn.

[Bill Simmons]

Call me out Casuals. Dean Stockwell. That's that guy to Craig.

[Craig]

Of course.

[Bill Simmons]

Sorry.

[Craig]

Of course he is.

[Sean Fennessey]

He was a huge star, A child star in the 50s.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He's like on Quantum Leap for 10 years.

[Craig]

20, 26.

[Bill Simmons]

Real ones on the TV show in the 80s. Real ones. John Penkow in Blue Velvet.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Became that guy from this movie. And from Frasier, John Penkow. Deep cut. They go to the doctor at one point after Peterson gets. Oh, yeah, yeah, Doctors. Ray Consola's dad from Field of Dreams.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

Dwyer Brown.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a great one.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I don't know what category you would put this one in, but the guy that Chance chases across the the footbridge is Gary Cole.

[Sean Fennessey]

That was mine.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's a good one. He's not in that. He's more Gary Cole. Yeah, that's. We had Craig.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who's Gary Cole?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you know Gary Cole.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's Lumber from office.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he was in. What? No, he was in. What? Comedy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, he was in the Brady Bunch movie. Peep.

[Bill Simmons]

No, he was in the Brady Bunch movie. No, he was in one of the feral McKay movies, though, wasn't he?

[Craig]

Oh, Talladega Knights.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He's Ricky Bobby's brother. Dad.

[Craig]

He's his dad.

[Sean Fennessey]

But you don't know the name Gary Cole.

[Craig]

I think I do know the name Gary Cole, but that doesn't mean I don't think he's not a that guy.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who?

[Bill Simmons]

Jeffrey Dan Wa.

[Craig]

William Peterson is a that guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's just obscene. He was on the number one show on television for 10 years.

[Craig]

People don't know the name of those actors.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're just young.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Craig gets taken off the group chat. My Dion waiters was Turturo, who we haven't really talked about, and Turo as well. And the check is in the mail, and I love you, and I promise not to come in your mouth.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is really early for him. Right. He also is unknown.

[Bill Simmons]

He's playing all the hits, all the future Turturro hits, like every other swinging

[Dave Dombrowski]

dick in here, day by day.

[Sean Fennessey]

I. I can't argue with that. I do really enjoy, though, Bob Grimes, Dean Stockwell's character, at the very end, when he's watching the videotape and he's like. He turns to Bianca and he's like, you may want these. There's some personal things on there.

[Dave Dombrowski]

She's like, yeah, thanks.

[Bill Simmons]

Recast the couch. Director. I already gave you Malkovich. Can I offer you for Dafoe's girlfriend who we didn't really talk about. Deborah Fuhrer.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Bianca, just a couple test drives here.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Melanie Griffith.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Coming off Body Double.

[Bill Simmons]

Rosanna Arquette.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mm. Desperately Seeking Susan. Is that 85?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Jennifer Jason Leigh.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure.

[Dave Dombrowski]

When's Fast Times 82?

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

What about Homegirl from Top Gun?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Kelly McGillis.

[Sean Fennessey]

Kelly McGillis? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She was a year after Witness.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I'm trying to think of, like, a great dancer in that area, like, because you want to have somebody who's, like, convincing as a dancer.

[Sean Fennessey]

Baryshnikov.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

That's basically a Melanie Griffith light performance. I don't. Not a lot of stuff happened.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, Daryl Hannah is really. I think also Sean, that's great guy, but she's doing.

[Bill Simmons]

She's in the news lately.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's doing very similar makeup in Blade Runner.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

As well.

[Bill Simmons]

I would go Bellen and Griffin.

[Sean Fennessey]

I had other names written down for Pankow. Sorry. No disrespect to you, but I actually. I forgot that I wrote this down.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Not my dad.

[Sean Fennessey]

David Patrick Kelly from the Warriors. Ooh, that could be interesting. Could see that. Young Michael Madsen, too. Handsome, but behind the ears.

[Dave Dombrowski]

What about Raymar?

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, Raymar would be good. The other one I had was J.T. walt Walsh, which. Who was once a member of one of our hallowed categories but is no longer a part of that category. And I feel like JT in 85.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a good one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pretty credible.

[Bill Simmons]

So John Herd could be another one too, for that, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Coming off Cutter's Way. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig checked out. He's not even listening anymore.

[Sean Fennessey]

I can do this all day.

[Bill Simmons]

You have a Craig. You did your flex. You want to talk about the Pitman trade or.

[Sean Fennessey]

No?

[Craig]

It's not bad.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Craig]

We needed a number two.

[Sean Fennessey]

There was a Pippin trade.

[Craig]

Pittman.

[Bill Simmons]

Pittman.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, Michael Pittman. Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Scotty Pippen got Pittman.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wanted him on the chest.

[Craig]

DK Metcalf can run free now.

[Bill Simmons]

We're running. We're at 100 minutes already. We're past the Craig Century thing. Half asset research. I'll zoom through a couple. They produced $1 million of counterfeit money, and they put deliberate errors in the money and put X. And that didn't stop some of the money from leaking out. And the son of one of the crew members tried to use some of the prop money to buy candy and was caught. And some of the money was still out.

[Craig]

That's like its own movie.

[Bill Simmons]

The Secret Service was picking up bills, like, years later.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

From this movie.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Some default.

[Bill Simmons]

The same thought Craig did. There's like. There's seven movies that could have come out of this movie. And one of them is the Counterfeit Bill movie that they made for the movie. But then it's like, ah, so cool. Car chase sequence. Took six weeks to shoot. The best part is it was the last thing shot. So if anything happened to the actors, they would have enough banked already.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And they shot it the way Sean was describing. Also because Friedkin was just like. I just like the landscape and the horizon on the other side of the road. So we're just gonna do it that way.

[Bill Simmons]

Friedkin came up with the idea of staging the chase against the flow of traffic. In 1963, when he was driving home from a wedding and fell asleep at the wheel and spent the rest of his life wondering what would happen and if he could use that in a film and eventually did. And then dreams do come true. All Panko's reactions were real. Wang Chung saw a rough cut of the film. Shitty actor Wang Chunk saw a rough cut before they did the song.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I heard Panko got cut from his JV basketball team.

[Craig]

How about that?

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mountain. Panko.

[Dave Dombrowski]

No. Mad about you.

[Bill Simmons]

Mad about you, Wang Chung. Yes, because we're on Wang Chung. Apex Mountain now.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Peterson, I think is csi.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, it is.

[Sean Fennessey]

I agree.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Secret Service movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can we do the list? I made the list.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it in the Line of Fire? That's why that's the alternative most successful, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Okay, so it's in the Line of Fire. It's Olympus Has Fallen and the Other Has Fallen films.

[Bill Simmons]

I even. I can't fully support those.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Interpreter. Oh, the Sentinel starring Michael Douglas.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I like the Sentinel.

[Sean Fennessey]

Along Came a Spider.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you like the Sentinel?

[Dave Dombrowski]

I like the Sentinel.

[Sean Fennessey]

Morgan Freeman and Ashley Jo in a

[Dave Dombrowski]

while like the Sentinel for BS Month.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a good one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Guarding Tess. Nicholas Cage in a Comedy with Charlie McLean and then the Bodyguard.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Oh, well, Secret Service. Yeah. I would also say in the Line of Fire, you know, in terms of depicting the Secret Service in a good or bad light. That guy lost Kennedy. So like it's kind of already playing from behind.

[Sean Fennessey]

Great point.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you include Dave just for the ving rhames scenes?

[Sean Fennessey]

Love that part.

[Bill Simmons]

I would take a bull for you, Dave. Ton, MGM has been showing it lately.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, this is on mgm.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you think that's because there's a new MGM plus show called. I forget what it's called, starring Kevin Klein.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you sure that Kevin Klein and Laura Linney's in?

[Sean Fennessey]

Laura Linney? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What it's like for like this show exists.

[Craig]

It's called American Classic.

[Sean Fennessey]

American Classic, Yes. And John and Laura, right? John Tenney is the third lead.

[Bill Simmons]

John Tenney, it's some famous Broadway actor goes back and is in a local play near the end of his career. All hell breaks loose.

[Sean Fennessey]

I almost fired it up last night. Love, Kevin Klein.

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mountain. William Peterson. We did Willem Dafoe, Platoon, Spider Man. Platoon, Spider Man. After Platoon, it felt like he was going to be one of the next big actors. Like he could pick this parts for a while.

[Sean Fennessey]

He would say he was in Less Temptations.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Every other actor in this movie except John Turturro, probably Apex Mountain.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. Darlan Deborah Fuhrer.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. All this Friedkin now setting art on fire.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not prepared for that one. Two is probably up there for that one.

[Bill Simmons]

Bungee jumping. Probably one of the crews.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jackass number two.

[Bill Simmons]

Jackass number two getting shot in the dick.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Ooh.

[Bill Simmons]

Pulp Fiction.

[Craig]

Goldeneye.

[Sean Fennessey]

Bungee jump. Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Great Goldeneye. Great Bungee jump. Pulp Fiction, obviously dick.

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mountain, 1985 Chevy and Palace.

[Dave Dombrowski]

There's a Ferrari in this one too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz or Hanks?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Cruz is Rick.

[Sean Fennessey]

Agreed.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz. Almost like interviewed the vampire. Magnolia type of cruise.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Slick long hair, demonized. Loves his. Would probably insist on doing the art himself.

[Bill Simmons]

I had Cruz as Rick as well. Scorsese over Spielberg.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Best hang. Worst tang.

[Sean Fennessey]

Best hang is Rick. Rick has got.

[Bill Simmons]

Rick's an amazing Hank.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's got money.

[Bill Simmons]

He gets presents on your birthday.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's got. He's got style and taste. He'll introduce you to the art world.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Can I play? Can we play this out a little bit? What is minute 11 of a conversation with Rick?

[Sean Fennessey]

I grew up in a house with cops. Like, it's Rick at times, like billion.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I know the. I know the real plus minus of the Chicago Bulls tonight. What do you want to talk about?

[Bill Simmons]

For me, it's. It's Chance.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Chance number one. Worst hang is Cody. Always complaining about. Complaining about his ulcers.

[Sean Fennessey]

Be real. Like, shoot straight here. Come on.

[Dave Dombrowski]

This isn't most.

[Craig]

I think Rick can introduce you into fun nights and new worlds. But you. I think conversationally, Rick might not be the best, but I. But he can. He can have the craziest night with you.

[Bill Simmons]

Me, Rick's like, want to take a sauna? No, I'm just getting naked.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is it best hang? Worst hang forever is it like. It's not. Best friend for the day forever.

[Craig]

It's like one night.

[Sean Fennessey]

One night, maybe one night.

[Bill Simmons]

It's Rick.

[Craig]

Rick has the craziest night for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

You wake up without.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's like, I'd like to introduce you to my friend. Jane leaves.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Sure. But like, chance might be like, let's go to the topless bar in Terminal Island.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, you know what I mean? Like,

[Dave Dombrowski]

I know the door girl.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a Steelers game.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Long snapping. I gotta watch.

[Bill Simmons]

Picky nits. I never sat right with me. When Chance notices something's wrong with the room service order.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Oh, yeah. Why? I mean, wait, he's just about to

[Bill Simmons]

leave and he just hears a clank and sees somebody walking across.

[Dave Dombrowski]

There's nobody supposed to be on that floor. You're not supposed to be on the floor.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that what it was?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, it's supposed to be clear.

[Bill Simmons]

How about Jimmy pulling the guy down from the floor below? The terrorist? Pulling him back. Where's he coming from?

[Dave Dombrowski]

He's, like, climbing up from, like, probably a lower roof onto the top of the building, but I. I think it's a stupid scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Turo is talking to Defo on the. On the jail phone.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

Do people just do this? They just openly confess crimes on the jail.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Praying for you, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He's like, don't. But you can just do this.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm sure criminals do it all the time.

[Craig]

Good.

[Bill Simmons]

Why don't they just monitor the jail phones? Why don't they, like, do surveillance?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's nice. That's a really good podcast.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Prison pot.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like a prison, like, convict and his. And his. His plug and his connect and they meet up.

[Bill Simmons]

Should we. Should we change, like, the reality TV pod where they're just calling each other

[Dave Dombrowski]

through a funny minute on my. You know, it's the most random shit on your Instagram algorithm sometimes. I was getting women in the Idaho prison system.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, the most random stuff on your algorithm that tracks all of your interests all the time.

[Bill Simmons]

So you obviously clicked on one date

[Dave Dombrowski]

women in the Idaho prison system.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do they all look like Darland Flugel?

[Dave Dombrowski]

No, sadly not. But I was just like, these chicks seem pretty interesting, you know, like,

[Bill Simmons]

Wow, that's one where you have to go in the algorithm and remove it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah,

[Dave Dombrowski]

it did eventually, but not for, like, there was still, like, nine days where I was just like, wow.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Bri from outside of Boise City. She loves anime. I have a picking Nick.

[Bill Simmons]

I only had two more, which was the cars on the wrong side of the road. Even though we talked about the intentionally. And then why does Vukovich get chances Bronco at the end of the movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

I know a lot of questions about it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Probably doesn't have a will and testimony, but. Yeah, I. My question is. What? It just seems like it would be much easier for Chance to execute Masters rather than, like, create all these different crimes to cover up for each other. To arrest him.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's like to do the By. By the book. You arrest them, but you're also breaking laws to do it by the book.

[Dave Dombrowski]

There's no way that case would have ever stood up. And to say nothing of the fact that Dean Stockwell already knows how criminal their investigation.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, relatedly, I feel like picking. That could just be an entire Vincent Chase award. Like, are we sure this character is actually good at his job? Because here's some of the things that Chance does. He races through security and alerts Carl to his presence in the airport rather than just show his ID quietly and find him on the people mover and apprehend him. Then he allows an affair with an informant to shade his ability to make good choices. And that ultimately leads to him taking the deal with Thomas Ling, which is clearly a setup. And he says to a judge when he's trying to get his escaped prisoner back, if I was one of your asshole cronies, you'd be spread eagle on your desk to do this for me. And then later, he gets shot in the face by a bodyguard. Chance is not good, like, at all.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He just takes risks.

[Bill Simmons]

That good.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And it's also not. It's pretty telling. I don't think that there was a long line of guys to replace Jimmy Hart. Like, when. When Chance loses his partner, it's not like everybody's like, damn, Chance is up. I can. I can be his partner.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right?

[Dave Dombrowski]

No, like, they were like, you can have Vukovich.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why he had nobody to leave his Bronco to.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right. It's a good point. That's a great moment early in the movie when they're all drinking heart after they apprehend or they foiled the terrorist plot. And Hart's like this fucking yahoo, and he's pointing a chance, and he's like, this guy's gotten me into some trouble.

[Dave Dombrowski]

But Vukovich gets the Bronco. Does he get the Malibu house?

[Sean Fennessey]

Good question.

[Bill Simmons]

I also have some questions about. What's Darlene Pflugal's character's name?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Ruth.

[Sean Fennessey]

Ruth.

[Bill Simmons]

Who in the book is called Ruthie the Rat? Yeah, she's the rat. As we find out during the movie, she's probably feeding info. No other guys ever over at the house. So it's just the unannounced stop by and nobody else there, but they're not really dating. And she can't do the, hey, when can we get more serious? Because he's like, I'll just revoke your parole.

[Craig]

Right?

[Bill Simmons]

This is gonna be the arrangement. But is she not allowed to have other guys over?

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, I feel like she's just been fully coerced into that relationship.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, it's not.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I know what you mean, though. It's like, at what point is she like, well, I do have a boyfriend, you know, long haul trucker.

[Sean Fennessey]

She gets sent back to prison.

[Bill Simmons]

Sequel, prequel, Prestige tv. All black cast are untouchable. I'm going all black cast for this one. We haven't had in a While I said, this is the all black cast would be amazing for this, I'd be pretty sexy.

[Dave Dombrowski]

They tried to make a prestige series of this for wgn. Freaking tried, but didn't get off the ground.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Fergie, the Florist, Zane Lowe, or somebody else?

[Dave Dombrowski]

How are you guys feeling about Zane?

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, every week it's the highlight of my week.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Chance, man, you just jumped off of Vincent Thomas and nobody thought you could do it. Alvarez didn't think you could do it. Your partner Jimmy Hart didn't think you could do it. But here you are. You got Jimmy Hart killed in some ways because you didn't get his back. But that Vukovich is here now. And just tell me, man, what are you gonna. What are your plans? What are your plans with Ruth? What are your plans for Masters? Such a talented artist in his own right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just the whole. The whole idea.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought you were gonna have him interviewing Rick Masters and go, rick, Rick, the artist.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes, the artist. The artist is here. You've done such beautiful work, both with money and with painting. What is it?

[Sean Fennessey]

I can't get over the idea of Zane Lowe inviting a local cop on show to talk to him about his, like, what he's investigating what's going on in his life.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's like, we got a lot of episodes of this show. It's hard, man.

[Bill Simmons]

I was Ted grabbing a little Ryan Ruko and Doris Burke doing the car chase, and Doris Burke's just calling everybody mister, but my heart's not totally in it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

We see you, Mr.

[Bill Simmons]

Chance. We see Mr.

[Craig]

Chance.

[Bill Simmons]

He's driving up the one way ramp. And then Ruko's like, is he gonna get there? You bet. Just want to ask her who gets it. Can I offer you original song?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Hey, original song or soundtrack?

[Bill Simmons]

Original song. Best music.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

The winner was say you, say me from White Nights by Lionel Richie. And honestly, that song kind of sucks. And I like Lionel Richie. I wouldn't put that in top 12. Lionel Richie's tough one. Okay, say you, say me, say it together naturally. That song sucks.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was really hoping you were gonna sing it.

[Bill Simmons]

Am I right? Does that song suck?

[Dave Dombrowski]

I never fucking liked Lionel Richie.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know why.

[Bill Simmons]

Pro Lynn Richie all night long is amazing. Easy. Like, I'll go on and on, but that song's bad.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wang Chung not nominated.

[Bill Simmons]

Wang Chung not nominated. Color Purple song was nominated. The Power of Love from Back to the Future. Honestly also could have won Banger.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

Separate lives from White Knight and then a Chorus Line 1. But Wang Chun could have seen them at the Oscars.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pretty cool.

[Bill Simmons]

And the nominees are. To Live and Die in LA by Wang Chung.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Would have been amazing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was that Anthony Hopkins? Who? Were you just doing that? I don't know. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably an answerable question.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I give my Oscar to Robbie Miller, please.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, sure. I don't have any more unanswerable questions yet because we've done all of them, so unless you.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I did my whole. Like, how did you find out who won that game? I always wondered about this Chances. Jimmy Hart wasn't just his partner. He was his best friend for seven years. Can somebody really be your best friend after seven years? I just feel like you got to make a deeper.

[Sean Fennessey]

You think it's got to go longer.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow. Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

Is Heifetz your best friend? You've known hype for seven years. Craig's a good personality.

[Craig]

Good call. I love them both equally. Danny and dk, probably not my best friends. They're my brothers.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Really.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, sure they are.

[Bill Simmons]

I actually do have an unanswerable question. I was debating whether to trot it out or not.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Just. I have some counterfeit money questions. So the amount of time, energy, money expenses to make counterfeit money, it didn't seem like a small operation. Right. You have all those printing presses and the paint and chemicals, Paper, chemicals, not cheap. And then somebody's buying the money. So they're. So I'm paying a hundred thousand dollars, but I'm getting $500,000 of money. Something like that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Probably like something like that.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think it's a good business. Not to mention you could be arrested and go to jail.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Jeff is like, if you're printing the money money, what do you give a shit what I make? Like, he's like, just print more money and give it to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, how about if you're printing the money, why don't you just keep the money and just buy shit with it or bring it to, like, Colombia and buy drugs and then take the drugs and bring them back? Like, what's the point of selling counterfeit money for money?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Because I think it's probably supposed to be the criminal act that's closest to artistic creation for masters.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think this is a really interesting examination of how your mind works, because I don't think the generally held opinion is that counterfeiting money is a good way to make money or a good job or safe. Yeah, it's a terrible idea.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a terrible idea. It's very Likely you're going to get arrested.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's so dangerous.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think for all the expense and time that you put into it, I don't see the upside.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, the only people that are buying the money from you are also criminals. And if you sell that money to the wrong person and then that person gets caught, you're fucked. Because not only either they're going to rat on you or you're going to get killed.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

There's 40 things that can go wrong, and the only thing that can go right is that you don't get caught.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And it seems like Rick is, like making like 30 grand here and 80 grand there. It's not like a huge number.

[Bill Simmons]

I would rather make the counterfeit money. And if I'm already going to jail for being a criminal at that point, like, I'd want to try to buy large, large quantities of cocaine and heroin.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Use the counterfeit money for that, to fool the drug dealers, bring the drugs back. Now, selling that, now I'm going to make, like, quintuple. I'm in the 80s where everybody's doing drugs anyway. I just. I wanted more from Rick Masters. I thought he was a better business mind.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I just think maybe get a job feels like a better way to do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, like, so we're going to Bakersfield to make the money. That's smart. Right. He's saving on rent and expenses. He's out of the.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He's got low overhead. It's just him and Jeff.

[Bill Simmons]

Low overhead.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I just don't see the upside.

[Dave Dombrowski]

There's probably not a health plan for those guys.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think for Rick in particular, there's just a nice crossover with his artistic interests and the precision that is required to do the work. So it's like. It's kind of an. It's like an artisan, you know, it's like a blacksmith who really loves the work that they do.

[Bill Simmons]

My other question is, how much did his bodyguard guy make? How much of those guys make cr. They get a cut of the proceeds.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He is.

[Bill Simmons]

He cut in like, Yeah, I signed a new deal. I get 10%.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. And I bet for a guy like that, probably, like, what are the other career options for him? Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably got out of jail.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, where do you stand on counterfeiting money and just that whole phenomenon. I don't feel like anybody's doing it anymore because I don't think it was a good business.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Like, if you ever.

[Craig]

Nobody uses paper money anymore, but have

[Dave Dombrowski]

you ever seen, like, when you go to a Bodega or whatever, and you pay with a 20. They, like, do something with a highlighter on it, see if it's real.

[Craig]

Yeah, that. That rings. Vaguely familiar, but, you know, now there's digital counterfeiting. Now you have some much better business. I was thinking about coin and crypto.

[Bill Simmons]

Not as fun for Rick, though, because he's an artist.

[Dave Dombrowski]

The move in Eyes Wide Shut, where Bill is like, gets there in the cab, tears the money in half, and he's like, I'll give you the other half of this when I come out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And I was like, what if you tried that on a cab driver today, do you think you'd just be like, get the out of my car?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, he'd still want to get paid somewhat.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. But, like, if you were like, here, like, you can tape this back together, like, wouldn't. You wouldn't even just be like, he

[Sean Fennessey]

does that when he arrives at the big house side of the park. I mean, the problem is he's all the way out in Bum Fuck Easter Long island, so he kind of has nowhere to go. It's a tough one.

[Bill Simmons]

What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Rick's Burn painting before he burns it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I wrote Masters Art Collection.

[Bill Simmons]

I would want the briefcase that Peterson slams, which we forgot to mention. How funny that was, that he's for real, slamming the briefcase until it opens. I would have that briefcase, but also with the counterfeit money that they made for the movie inside the briefcase, I think would be the sweet spot. I think it'd be cool to have, like, $1 bill from this movie that had the X on it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Maybe come with, like, a poker chip like the ones they used to beat it up. That'd be cool.

[Bill Simmons]

Double feature choice. I had Manhunter. What'd you have?

[Sean Fennessey]

Thief.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Very good.

[Sean Fennessey]

Or have you. Have you seen Boiling Point, the Wesley Snipes movie, which is also about counterfeiting money.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I haven't.

[Dave Dombrowski]

1993, I haven't seen this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Dennis Hopper, he plays a counterfeiter, and Wesley Snipes is on his trail. They're very similar.

[Bill Simmons]

Are there enough money? Are there enough counterfeiting movies for counterfeiting Movie Month?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, we've just knocked one off and I've named the other. Not sure if I can name it.

[Bill Simmons]

There's gotta be.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's gotta be.

[Craig]

Catch Me if youf can is checks.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Does that count?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's true.

[Bill Simmons]

That was another one we loved when. In that movie when he was counterfeiting the checks. Maybe I just like counterfeiting I had

[Dave Dombrowski]

a point blank John Boorman movie kind of has like some of the like impressionistic moments of this.

[Bill Simmons]

Who won the movie?

[Dave Dombrowski]

I think freedom.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'll say Peterson.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's 100 Peterson.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Because this starts his career and eventually leads to CSI and him just wandering around Larchmont jogging pants just throwing twenties at people to get him a Starbucks.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Did he do that?

[Bill Simmons]

No, I'm making that up. Do you think he's ever run in a remar in the neighborhood?

[Dave Dombrowski]

I bet those guys had some war stories.

[Bill Simmons]

Like a handshake.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah, maybe. Did you see the handshake Dafoe and Jeff have when they're kind of pounding but also doing a little thumby war action?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. You think?

[Bill Simmons]

Should we start doing that, Craig, do you want a handshake for when we see each other? We don't have one like LeBron James has with his teammates.

[Sean Fennessey]

That'd be great.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Like a four dance.

[Craig]

There's too many ways for men to dap each other.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like double dap. What are you bringing in?

[Sean Fennessey]

Are you like a bring it in guy?

[Craig]

It depends on who you're greeting. It can go all over the place. You could do a stern handshake. You could do the full dap and rap.

[Sean Fennessey]

When you see your father in law, what's your move?

[Craig]

Handshake into the wraparound hug.

[Sean Fennessey]

You will get the hug.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Good for you.

[Dave Dombrowski]

My man radar has been on the fritz recently. I feel like I've gotten hugged when I thought we were shaking and I think gone for the shake when. You know what I mean?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, it's hard to read. I've just been going hugs lately for everybody.

[Craig]

But if you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Craig]

If you meet someone for the first time, you're just going pure handshake.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right? No.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Sometimes do the high high five with the quick, quick hug.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Jacoby sounds very.

[Bill Simmons]

Taught me how to do that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

He's stuck with it.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's safe.

[Dave Dombrowski]

But it throws me off because, like, I'll sometimes go up.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And like grab his fist. I'm like, this is. I don't even know how we're going to hang out anymore, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Craig, your thoughts on To Live and

[Craig]

Die in la, man, literally the first five seconds of the movie, I was like, five stars. It's great. Music's out of control. I really, I can't tell if I'm starting to develop poor music tastes because that kind of music now is really speaking to me. And I'm like going back to that kind of early 80s kind of music. And I find it to be great. But this movie falls in that category of maybe these don't make a ton of sense, but they do in my brain of like Body Heat, American Gigolo, Blowout. What? I wrote it down. Body Double. I love these like fucked up 80s movies where the city plays a real role in the movie. Like the city is a character. And like you were saying, what was it? High art, low culture, that sweet spot I really, really like. And this is like as good as as it could get.

[Sean Fennessey]

I loved it.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not suppressed. There's only a couple cities that you could do a movie like this to. Right.

[Dave Dombrowski]

But this is back in the day when you could run and gun in la and it wasn't.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's gotta be warm weather. It's a movie about the sun.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. I think I do like movies where everyone's hot, sweaty, it just works. And there's like, the movie is two things at once. It can be a turn it on, check out, just have a good time. And then if you really watch it, like you guys are saying, even the more you talk about it, having seen it.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. We didn't even get like, was really Ruth selling out Chance the whole time? Like, to who?

[Craig]

There is clear meaning and messaging within.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't even think that was a debate.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I think, I mean, she was,

[Dave Dombrowski]

but like, who is she calling? Was she calling Grimes? Was she calling Masters?

[Bill Simmons]

Who is she calling? I think, I mean, the true masterminds of the movie are Grimes and. And Ruth, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, darling.

[Craig]

Is it Darlan?

[Sean Fennessey]

Darlan. She.

[Craig]

She would have meant a lot to me in 1985.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's very special.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

That makes.

[Dave Dombrowski]

That checks out.

[Craig]

Can I ask what. What is the modern comp for this kind of movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

Movie?

[Craig]

Is it Caught stealing? Is it.

[Sean Fennessey]

So one of my other double features was Dragged Across Concrete, which you and I were just talking about, which I think is pretty similar to this, where it's like really nasty.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And like it's more in at night instead of during the day, but very beautifully shot. They.

[Dave Dombrowski]

They took a run at this, like late 90s, into the early 2000s. Like narc.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, Narc is a good version of this.

[Dave Dombrowski]

What's the one with.

[Bill Simmons]

What about Rush? With Jason Patrick?

[Sean Fennessey]

Just.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Dude, you want to do. When are we going to do Rush, brother, That'll be good.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, if we do Rush, Jason Patrick will probably show up and crash it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you think if you were an undercover cop, drug cop at that time, you would have gone in too Deep and not been able to get out. Yeah, you do. What about you?

[Craig]

Yes.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Get in too deep.

[Dave Dombrowski]

What would be the point of being an undercover cop? To keep it just shallow enough.

[Sean Fennessey]

You guys kind of have a heart and chance thing going on now that

[Bill Simmons]

I think we're going to have an undercover cop that gets in too deep. But working with a cop who doesn't play by the rules. Has anyone ever crossed those streams before?

[Dave Dombrowski]

Oh, a guy who's like, I'm into.

[Bill Simmons]

They're just both. They're two separate movies, basically. But they're partners, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. The cowboy and the. And the. And the drug addict.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like Sierra's going to be thinking about this Pankow thing for some time.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It's going to haunt me all night.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like Panka might.

[Dave Dombrowski]

85 bulls.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why I always feel bad when we talk about. Listen, he had a great career.

[Craig]

I do have to point out when. When Chance is. Is pretending to be Jessup.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Some of the worst tricep extension form I've ever.

[Dave Dombrowski]

So I was curious about what. How you felt about doing. Doing deals with your boys while. While doing lifting.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's.

[Craig]

It's another great idea for a pod, perhaps.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think we played that up enough. The lifting scene.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'd said it was the most 1985 thing about this movie.

[Craig]

They're all incredibly close. Like, all three of them are within 10ft of one.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you notice there's two other people behind, one of whom is, like this jacked female, like, bodybuilder with bleach blonde hair.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Freaking.

[Bill Simmons]

Who's just doing this in a mirror. And it looks. It honestly looks like it's about to be a porn scene.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

He was such a little freak. I love freaking. This is the weirdest shit in these movies. I cannot get over the flashback to the sex scene in the final minutes of the final minute of the movie. We even talk about the end when he's like, you work for me now. That's the craziest thing in the world. He's like, I'm your pimp just because my partner died.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, nuts. Becca's fast with Pankow going.

[Dave Dombrowski]

The end goes by fast. But I think that's because there was the tension around, like, the alternative endings and stuff.

[Craig]

I care less even about what actually happens. The movie is more of just a vibe to me. Watching the last 10 minutes, I'm like, I don't even really.

[Dave Dombrowski]

That's what I'm saying is like, you watch it now and you're just like, oh my God. I can't believe the sign on the bar.

[Bill Simmons]

The movie is every room you're in is cool.

[Craig]

I literally made a like how halfway through the movie I realized every single room we're in looks cool for some reason. And I tried to think about that for the rest of the movie and it holds true.

[Dave Dombrowski]

When he's drinking Miller in a shot before he rips off Ling, the sign behind him says Tiempo Dorado Miller. And I was like, that's the best Miller time sign I've ever seen.

[Bill Simmons]

Sierra Month three in the books.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Roland. This is part of the LA trilogy we're doing.

[Craig]

Do we have one? Is it. Are we doing five movies or four?

[Bill Simmons]

It's a five movie month.

[Craig]

So we know what the fifth is.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. LA Confidential.

[Craig]

Oh, LA Confidential.

[Bill Simmons]

So nice guys is fourth and then LA Confidential is fifth. So you might join us for that one. If the Oscars doesn't kill you.

[Sean Fennessey]

For LA Confidential.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll be in Andy Greenwald. It's going to be the first four person rewatchable we've done in a while.

[Sean Fennessey]

At the other studio.

[Bill Simmons]

At the other studio.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Yeah. I can't wait.

[Bill Simmons]

More thing. Any other feedback on CR Month before we go?

[Dave Dombrowski]

I just really appreciate everybody's kind sentiments. This has been a lot of fun. These movies are awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

People have been asking for merch.

[Sean Fennessey]

Merch? Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Merch.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you. What? How do you feel about a Phillies hat but with CR in the Phillies script?

[Dave Dombrowski]

I sort of. Would the Phillies get litigious about that?

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like you're a vocal advocate.

[Dave Dombrowski]

I am. You know I am. I believe in everything Dave Dombrowski does.

[Bill Simmons]

If the Phillies got litigious about that, that'd be fucking bullshit. It'd also be like, how dare they do that.

[Dave Dombrowski]

It would also be great for the population if I got sued into bankruptcy by Dave Dombrowski.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just deepen your folk heroes.

[Bill Simmons]

You bought the hats with counterfeit money from your counterfeit money business.

[Dave Dombrowski]

And then we would have Bryce Harper. Come on. He'd be like, yeah, fuck Dombrowski. I am elite.

[Sean Fennessey]

Have you followed that story?

[Bill Simmons]

I have.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a great story.

[Bill Simmons]

That's it for the rewatchables. Thanks to Craig and to Gahao as well to Eduardo. We'll be back with CR Month which will be be.

[Dave Dombrowski]

Nice guys.

[Bill Simmons]

Nice guys. Gosling Crow. Excited for this one.

[Craig]

Me too.

[Bill Simmons]

See you next week.