‘Wild Things’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Mallory Rubin

Summary

The Rewatchables: ‘Wild Things’ (1998)

With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Mallory Rubin
February 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Mallory Rubin revisit the 1998 film Wild Things, unpacking its place in the erotic thriller genre, its cultural impact, and its famously twisty plot. The panel explores the ways Wild Things embodied late-90s sexual energy, the careers of its stars (notably Denise Richards and Neve Campbell), and the film’s self-aware blend of camp, mystery, and lurid trash. The hosts break down the movie’s most iconic scenes—including the infamous threesome and countless plot twists—and reflect on why films like this feel like relics from a bygone era. Expect candid talk about on-screen sexuality, nostalgia-soaked 1990s context, and plenty of laughter as the hosts oscillate between analysis and irreverence.

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Key Discussion Points & Segments

1. The Golden Age of the Erotic Thriller & the Sexually Charged Late ‘90s

• [04:11] The hosts outline how Wild Things lands at the tail end of the ‘90s erotic thriller boom—alongside Fatal Attraction, Basic Instinct, Disclosure, and others.
• [06:54] Both Van and Craig reminisce about audience expectations for more explicit content, and the movie’s balance between sexual energy and a convoluted, twisty plot.
  • “I remember being like an hour into the movie, like, yo, is this a courtroom thriller? Like, what the fuck is going on?” —Van Lathan ([06:55])
• [08:03] Discussion of late ‘90s pop culture’s sexual exuberance: Maxim, MTV Spring Break, Girls Gone Wild, WWE’s Attitude Era, Britney Spears, etc. The hosts note how Wild Things slots neatly into this “horny” historical moment.
• [09:44] Van Lathan theorizes that the rise of internet porn removed explicit sexuality from mainstream movies, closing an era where cinematic sex had mainstream cultural impact.
  • “The rise of the Internet and pornography took all that sexuality out of the mainstream... Now it’s back in your pocket.” —Van Lathan ([09:44])

2. Shifting Attitudes Toward On-Screen Nudity

• [14:45] Mallory observes that, compared to today, on-screen nudity in the ‘90s was more in the hands of producers, now it’s in the hands of the stars.
  • “It feels like it was in the hands of the producers and now it's in the hands of the stars.” —Mallory Rubin ([14:45])
• [15:00] Van notes the importance of intimacy coordinators in today’s industry—a shift from the wild west of ‘90s set dynamics.

3. Cast Profiles and Star Archetypes

• [18:01–24:31] Panelists break down Neve Campbell’s and Denise Richards’ trajectories:
  • Campbell’s “one-move” vulnerable, likable archetype, and her brief 90s peak (Party of Five, Scream, Wild Things), including the surprising nature of her casting in such a salacious film.
  • Denise Richards is identified as the quintessential late ‘90s sex symbol, whose career arguably peaked here.
    • “This is like the Dante Culpepper Viking season... you look at Pro Football Reference later, you're like, whoa, those stats were crazy.” —Craig ([06:33])
    • “She is the Jordan 63-point game... She's doing this to the 86 Celtics.” —Craig ([58:53])
  • Both actresses embody the “breaking type” ritual, transitioning from teen TV to adult, often sexualized film roles.
• [31:28] Matt Dillon’s “tweener” status—handsome enough for the lead, sleazy enough for suspicion, and never an A+ Hollywood guy.
• [37:38] Bill Murray’s cameo as a sleazy lawyer stuns the panel, shifting the movie’s tone and “oddly giving it credibility.”
  • “To see him in the movie, it almost in some way gave the movie an odd credibility.” —Van Lathan ([38:28])

4. The Film’s Structure: Plot Twists, Stingers & Camp

• [43:46] Bill and Craig marvel at the film’s excessive, at times confounding number of twists, and the unusual device of the closing credits providing “answers” to the plot.
  • “It’s the only time I’ve ever seen a closing credits where then... they kind of explain the movie.” —Craig ([43:46])
  • “Simultaneously, nothing about the story holds up to scrutiny, but also the fact that it doesn’t is part of its charm.” —Bill Simmons ([44:47])
• [45:44] The hosts discuss shifting hero/villain status among the characters, and the movie’s central thesis—underdog Susie (Neve Campbell) prevailing over the rich and corrupt.

5. Most Memorable Scenes and Sexuality in Context

• [62:38–66:24] Delving into the legendary motel threesome and pool scenes—their legacy and what makes them so memorable (the twist, the eroticism, the cultural context). The panel highlights Matt Dillon’s “yeah” moment in the threesome scene.
  • Mallory: “There's a great moment in the Threesome... in the middle of it, Matt Dillon just goes, yeah.” ([63:45])
  • Van: “Matt Dillon as evil Superman... and he just goes, ‘yeah,’ with the evil Superman Elvis.” ([64:20])
• [66:42] Discussion of the way sexual scenes serve actual plot purposes—unlike “gratuitous” scenes in some other films, these are pivotal to the twists.
  • “It is like a genuine... sex scene that actually has... dramatic purpose.” —Van Lathan ([65:37])

6. The South Florida Setting and Changing Movie Sensibilities

• [53:07] South Florida as a character—its sweaty, sultry atmosphere and class distinctions are praised; the region’s enduring trappings (swamps, wrestling alligators, rich/poor divides) fuel the film’s sense of place.
  • “South Florida is a character.” —Van Lathan ([53:07])
• [71:50] South Florida scandals: sex, money, class warfare—still just as relevant (and entertaining) decades later.

7. What’s Aged Best or Worst?

• Aged Best:
  • The movie’s wild, uninhibited camp.
  • Its reputation as "well-made trash" (Ebert: “incredible lurid trash” –[50:57])
  • Bill Murray's unexpected turn.
  • The enduring aesthetic of goth, short shorts, and “emerging from a pool” movie moments.
• Aged Worst:
  • Gen-Z’s awkward relationship with sex scenes—less appetite for on-screen eroticism ([92:17])
  • The impossibility of the plot in the era of cell phones, social media, and modern forensics.
  • The now-outmoded soundtrack marketing and the decline of the movie soundtrack album ([83:31])
  • Van, on the fate of the erotic thriller: “I think Internet porn ruined it. Ruined it.” ([89:08])

8. Behind-the-Scenes Nuggets & Casting What-Ifs

• Inside stories:
  • Neve Campbell’s strict no-nudity clause due to her Party of Five contract.
  • Kevin Bacon’s contract, the famous accidental “dick shot,” and Bacon allegedly enjoying its notoriety (“Free the Bacon” PSA) ([13:01–13:38]).
  • The extended/unrated DVD releases and how they retroactively changed the movie’s legacy.
  • Rumors and alternate script plans included a gay romance/sex scene between Bacon and Dillon—ultimately cut from the film ([79:22]).
  • Dead body found during filming in actual Florida swamps ([103:04]).
• Casting What-Ifs:
  • Robert Downey Jr. was original choice for Sam but couldn’t be insured ([97:25]).
  • Natasha Lyonne and Tara Reid auditioned for Susie and Kelly, respectively ([99:00]).

9. Awards, Rankings, and Final Words

• Most Rewatchable Scene: Unanimously, the Motel Threesome twist-reveal ([67:38]).
• Most 1998 Thing: Smash Mouth/Third Eye Blind soundtrack, giant camcorder, teacher-student sex plots as mainstream narrative.
• Apex Mountain: Denise Richards (“100% yes!”); Matt Dillon (perhaps his hottest streak); “Emerging from a pool” scene—toss-up with Fast Times at Ridgemont High ([30:48]).
• Who Won the Movie: Denise Richards—the iconic “Jordan 63-point game” of 90s femme fatales.

10. Most Notable Quotes

• “Sweaty masterpiece... Most expensive Lifetime movie ever made.” —Craig ([04:09])
• “There used to be a place in our movie-making culture for well-made trash.” —Van Lathan ([51:17])
• On nudity: “Important stuff. Then you have Neve Campbell... Party of Five... contract didn’t allow for nudity in other projects.” —Bill Simmons ([16:00])
• “I would recommend the unrated extended cut of the pool scene.” —Bill Simmons ([67:48])
• On Bill Murray: “It radically changes the tone of the movie... It’s one of the more emblematic of, like, I don’t quite know how the movie gets away with something that jarring.” —Bill Simmons ([37:52])
• On Kevin Bacon’s infamous scene: “You put the dick in there and then for a second, you’re a little mad, like, why? He put the dick in my face like that. And then you’re like, oh, okay... I know this guy!” —Van Lathan ([17:16])
• “Triple horn got busy... Sharon Stone is over here to play basketball. Just play pickup.” —Craig ([96:30])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:11]—Intro to erotic thriller genre, 90s context
• [08:03]—Late ‘90s sexual energy in pop culture
• [15:00]—Intimacy coordinators and on-set nudity safety
• [30:48]—Pool scene: Denise Richards/Jordan analogy
• [43:46]—Closing credits reveal & convoluted plotting
• [62:38–66:24]—The iconic threesome scene(s) and their significance
• [71:50]—South Florida sex scandals, setting as character
• [83:31]—Death of the blockbuster soundtrack
• [89:08]—Internet porn and the demise of the erotic thriller
• [97:25]—Robert Downey Jr. casting what-if

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Memorable Moments & Running Gags

• Repeated joking about “first nine minutes” of sex (Van’s self-aware running bit)
• The “goddamn” category (best moments to elicit a “goddamn” from an audience/dad)
• Ongoing digs at how tame/titillating the movie was for different age groups
• Mallory’s personal story about taking a phone call while losing her virginity ([110:44])
• Ongoing debate about Kevin Bacon “fluffing” before his nude scene
• The “no nudity clause” debate—emphasizing the double standard and the shifting rules around on-screen sex

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Conclusion

Wild Things is viewed as the end of an era—a self-aware, purposefully trashy, twist-filled, and deeply rewatchable capsule of 1998’s sexual and cultural id. The movie is interrogated both as a historical document (wherein its plotting feels impossible today) and as a product of a Hollywood that took more risks with on-screen sexuality and camp. The hosts celebrate the film’s excesses, its most memorable (and meme-able) moments, and the odd beauty of “well-made trash” that Hollywood rarely attempts—let alone nails—anymore.

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Final recommendation: The episode is a must for fans of the movie and for anyone curious about late-90s pop culture, erotic thrillers, and the evolving role of sex and scandal in Hollywood cinema. The hosting trio provide equal parts nostalgia, critique, and comedy—making this an essential listen even for Wild Things novices.

Transcript

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[Bill Simmons]

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[Bill Simmons]

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[Bill Simmons]

Delivery fees may apply.

[Craig]

The rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find higher learning with Van Lathan.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Midnight boys.

[Van Lathan]

Pew, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew.

[Craig]

And ring or tailgate.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The best new show of 2025.

[Van Lathan]

Race the rings.

[Bill Simmons]

Very special.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Somebody sent me a listener email saying that Joel Anderson was like a fourth round. What did he say?

[Mallory Rubin]

Fourth round?

[Van Lathan]

He said a fourth round. A fourth round defensive end that has 15 sacks in their rookie year just.

[Craig]

Comes out of nowhere. That was the description of Joe Anderson. I said insult and accomplishment, frankly.

[Bill Simmons]

How dare that person. Joel, number one draft pick, but also.

[Craig]

Gave him 15 sacks, which was a compliment. So really in the gamut of. Yeah, it was a Trey Anderson thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Five star recruit, number one draft pick, 15 sacks, rookie of the Year, hall of Fame.

[Craig]

And you pulled a trick on him. You did the dress up trick.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

That was just an genuinely incredible moment, man.

[Van Lathan]

The show started, the show is rolling, and then two things happened to the show that we could not have predicted. Number one, Joel is just. I can't explain it. And then when Billy came in, Billy knew how to Harness it tells all.

[Craig]

Them to dress up in suits.

[Bill Simmons]

When you say how to harness it, you mean make fun of Joel every 15 minutes?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, man. Yeah.

[Craig]

What a show.

[Van Lathan]

What a show.

[Craig]

Best new show, 2025. No awards yet, but I just gave one. Mallory Rubin.

[Bill Simmons]

Hello.

[Craig]

You see her in House of R. That's right. I don't like to pigeonhole you, as we only bring you into the rewatchables for certain type of genres and things, but you are being pigeonholed lately, so we're going to have to zag at some point.

[Bill Simmons]

I would say that there's an erotic thriller.

[Craig]

Harrison Ford stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Harrison Ford sports movie.

[Craig]

Maybe we just do a generic rom com in 2025 with none of those things.

[Bill Simmons]

That would be great. I'm still being. I'm still wa to be invited for my actual area of expertise, which is a science fiction or fantasy film. Waiting for Blade Runner.

[Craig]

Call as soon as we run out of movies that happen. Blade Runner. Blade Runner.

[Van Lathan]

That would be fantastic. Have you seen Blade Runner?

[Craig]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Craig]

Something in the theater. Long, age 12. Long, long movie. This is not a long movie. No, it's an amazing movie. It's Wild Things and it's next. Wild things, 1998. They don't make them like this anymore. They try to make them.

[Bill Simmons]

They're not allowed to make them like this anymore.

[Van Lathan]

You can't do it.

[Craig]

They try to make this. They do either crazier versions of this or tamer versions of this. They never hit the sweet spot. Erotic thriller, black comedy, campy thriller, sweaty masterpiece. Most expensive Lifetime movie ever made. Yeah, those are the five genres. What am I missing?

[Van Lathan]

Softcore porn, erotic thriller for the MTV generation, absolutely. So after a whole decade of erotic thrillers, really, I guess you could make. You can make arguments for other decades, but for me, the 90s is the sweet spot. The classic starts.

[Craig]

The Fatal Attraction starts with Fatal Attraction, which we've done. Fail of Attraction comes through for the next 10 years.

[Van Lathan]

Disclosure, indecent Proposal, Hand that racks the cradle. Handrack cracks.

[Craig]

Keep going.

[Van Lathan]

Sliver, Body of evidence.

[Craig]

But Basic Instinct peaks by the time.

[Van Lathan]

You get to the end of the decade. Some of the younger people who have grown up on those movies are old enough to go to the theaters to have their own version of it. So you bring in two young stars like Denise Richards, who's brand new, and then Neve Campbell from Party of Five. You make the movie, you making some scandal, and then, boom, you get people in the theaters.

[Bill Simmons]

I just want to say, brave of you to open with Sweaty Masterpiece which had really high likelihood of turning into an incredible Freudian slip. Just amazing work from you there, Sweaty mast. Yeah, I didn't know where it was going to go.

[Craig]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

Didn't know where it was going to go. This movie came out in 98, so I was in middle school. And let me say that this was one of three staples in Reisterstown, Maryland, for young people of a certain age at the sleepover or party. Parents have gone upstairs. What are we putting on? It was Wild Things, Cruel Intentions or American Pie. Late middle school into early high school. Just frankly to the point where it's a great era. I think we were just watching the motel threesome in the pool scene. And until I revisited this as an adult, I don't think I actually recalled what the movie was about or what happened in it. Yeah, just thought it was about fucking.

[Craig]

Which in some ways it is.

[Van Lathan]

And that's funny because being a guy, 18, 17. 18, at that time, that saw Denise Richards automatic entry into the White Girl hall of Fame. Very auto entry. Right. You went to.

[Craig]

Honestly, it's like the Dante Culpepper Viking season, whatever that year was, when he had like 48 TDs.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. 5,000 yards. And you're like.

[Craig]

Then you look at Pro Football Reference later, you're like, whoa, those stats were crazy. That was her nuts.

[Van Lathan]

So you go to the movie, and if you were just a little bit older, the movie at that point, when I first saw it, didn't have enough nudity and sex for me. I expected it's going to be a.

[Craig]

Topic in the pod.

[Van Lathan]

I expected more. And I remember being like an hour into the movie, it's like, yo, is this a courtroom thriller? Like, what the fuck is going on?

[Craig]

Cruel Intentions was like that, too. It's a really horny movie that's not as sexual as it seems like it should have or could have been.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I do think you're right, though, that the second half of the movie really has, like, a grip on the collective consciousness. And when you revisit it, you're like, am I watching, like, Presumed Innocent?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What is this? Exactly? And then it radically shifts at the moment of the first twist being revealed. And of course, there are the first unfortunate twist, many twists to come, as there are endings of Return of the King. Continuing my streak of mentioning Lord of the Rings here in front of Bill until he watch. Until he watches one of those movies that didn't know.

[Craig]

I don't even know what that is.

[Bill Simmons]

You're really missing out, man. The Amazon show, even Craig. Oh, the Amazon show. I would also recommend Rings of Power. Yeah.

[Craig]

Can we go back to the late 90s?

[Bill Simmons]

Sure, let's do it.

[Craig]

There's just a real sexual energy brewing in the late 90s. We have Magic, the HIV announcements. November 91st. Hold on. I'm going to land the plane. Settle down. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Hold on.

[Craig]

I just put the wheels down. I put the wheels down. I'm gonna land.

[Van Lathan]

All right.

[Craig]

I was in college during this time. There's a real kind of fear of hiv.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a real fear right now in this room. As you say, these things. Go ahead.

[Craig]

By the time we hit the late 90s, people are like, fuck it.

[Van Lathan]

It's back in the back.

[Craig]

Let's get our freak on again. I'm not scared anymore. Let's go. And you could feel it trickle into the TV shows and the movies and the music. We have Maxim magazines kicking it up. MTV Spring Break sex tapes are just popping out left and right with celebrities, WWE Attitude Era and the divas. Britney Spears is about to come into the scene as, like, whatever she was trying to do. Shannon Elizabeth at American pie. Anna Kournikova, Woodstock 99. Everyone's topless. Jerry Springer, Girls Gone Wild. Like, we just kind of fucking lose our mind in the late 90s, and this movie fits in. See, I landed the plane.

[Van Lathan]

I. Yeah, you did. I actually think that something. You did. Yeah, I think that something.

[Bill Simmons]

He adjusted the winch right? Got the right where it needed to be.

[Craig]

I was like, what? Denzel and Flex?

[Bill Simmons]

You don't draw the throat, you sail it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, never worried.

[Van Lathan]

All kinds of stuff. Like, you missed other things that were just like. Well, not the ease wild on where they would go and show people in bikinis gyrating in Ibiza and all of that stuff. Howard Stern would be on there. You'd turn on Howard Stern's another one, and it would be like, oh, the lesbian contest of Long island or whatever. You'd see porn stars on there.

[Craig]

Gin had Skinemax. Skinemax, Cinemax, Showtime, all those places.

[Van Lathan]

Jenna Jameson becomes a mainstream star. She becomes somebody that people just know.

[Craig]

America had its horns on.

[Van Lathan]

It did. And then what happened was, in my opinion, the reason why things are actually opposite now is because the rise of the Internet and pornography took all of that sexuality out of the mainstream. It put it back in your pocket. So it was something that you could do while you're in. You could go enjoy your serious movies and your serious stuff, like, on the screen. It didn't have to be sexy because you could watch the wildest shit just on your phone or on your computer.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's my question. Why not both? Why do we have to make a choice like that? Why not have erotic thrillers and lots of sex in our movies and be able to program your particular algorithm and filters for whatever suits your needs?

[Craig]

But we have. We have too much of it now, which is like. There's too. You can find anything you want now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

1998, this is still the local video store that had the swinging cowboy doors that you, like, went behind. And there are all the porn titles. And this was. Wild Things comes out and everybody's like, holy shit, I heard there's a threesome. We're in the same times.

[Van Lathan]

And then there's just something else. Like there was a certain. There was a certain type of star, particularly a ladies star, that burst onto the scene with their sexuality and then mainstreamed it out with, like, a serious role. When you're talking about, like a show.

[Craig]

We gotta talk about that. Yeah, well, but the TV stars, the teen stars moving into this world, of course. Sure, it was like a formula.

[Van Lathan]

But there is something different now. Like after the fappening and you actually saw.

[Craig]

Fappening.

[Van Lathan]

Wow. It's true. After the fappening and you actually saw.

[Craig]

You're worried about me flying the plane after that happened.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just in the presence of two of the greats. It's just an honor to be here. It's just an honor to be here.

[Van Lathan]

After you saw. And this is, you know, after you saw all of those ladies naked. For real. Yeah. Like, they just didn't have to, like, they didn't have to be erotic on screen anymore. They could, like, stay. It's just totally different the way people come to an actor, actress sexuality anymore.

[Craig]

Well, also, we were talking about Thrones before we started taping because I've been rewatching it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Think of how many shows push the envelope from 1998 on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And like, even Industry, which you haven't seen this week's episode, I'm one behind. Yeah, just a. Just a violating, you can sexual scene moment.

[Bill Simmons]

You can count on some explicit content.

[Craig]

In every episode of Industry, going back to the early 2000s all the way through. And even. Even Oz was doing this in the late 90s, but.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah.

[Craig]

But then Thrones pushing the envelope and all these other shows and how far can we go? How far can we go? Wild things like that seems really tame now. When it's like.

[Bill Simmons]

It does.

[Craig]

Oh, we have a threesome. It's like this would be. Like this would get rejected in the dragon meeting. What's the show called? House of Dragon.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes. House of the Dragon is one of the spinoffs. Have you watched the Night of the Seven Kingdoms yet?

[Craig]

Haven't watched that yet.

[Bill Simmons]

There is a gigantic, gigantic cock at the beginning.

[Craig]

Everyone's talking about this giant penis. Very, very, very special ringer.com piece about the biggest penises in HBO history.

[Bill Simmons]

It was.

[Craig]

Some of the crack was inconceivable in 1998 because this movie has a penis for a split second from Kevin Bacon.

[Bill Simmons]

That's right.

[Craig]

And it became like a cultural phenomenon that year that he flashed. Nobody could believe it.

[Van Lathan]

He flashed. There was a couple of notable penises that like. Cause Bruce Willis. Penis.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure, of course.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Color of night.

[Van Lathan]

Color of night. So his penis. And then. But the bacon penis flash became. He was going around doing press and being asked about it every time he did press.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes. I like the quotes that he's had over the years about how this was like an obsession in the American media, but in Europe, nobody even. Not only did they not care, they didn't even comment on it because, you know, in Europe, they're much freer with their bodies. Right. And nudity is more common. But it was something that people talked about here in the States for so long that, like, what was it, 10 years ago, 2015, he put out the Free the Bacon PSA, you know. Great.

[Craig]

And Wahlberg was dealing with it too, with Boogie Nights when it was like, is that real or fake? But there was this penis error. Craig, as you hear us talk about this, do we sound like we're a hundred years old?

[Mallory Rubin]

No. Cause even when I came up, I don't know, I do feel like there's a bit of a bounce back right now with nudity on screen. I think there was a period where it was completely gone. And there is now a bit of people kind of taking control of it again and feeling confident about doing nudity on screen. People like, obviously, like Sydney Sweeney, Jennifer Lawrence has done nudity in multiple movies, like in the last five years, in the late 2010s that had kind of gone away. Yeah, you're right. And now it's starting to come back again.

[Craig]

Yeah. Well, when we did Just One of the Guys, sadly, you weren't on. I know you were devastated. We only have three seats.

[Van Lathan]

I get it.

[Craig]

But, you know, but Joyce Heiser didn't know if she wanted to get naked or not. And Rosanna Arquette was basically. They were debating it. And one of the things they mentioned was like, when you get older, you're gonna be glad you did it because you look great. You'd be like 60, 70 would be like, look how great I looked, and whatever. And I wonder maybe if that's flipped too with some of these artists.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, it feels like it was in the hands of the producers and now it's in the hands of the stars.

[Van Lathan]

True.

[Craig]

100%.

[Van Lathan]

Well, there's something else that exists now that didn't exist then. There was. Obviously, there's subtext to all of these conversations about how these scenes actually played out on set.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Now there are intimacy coordinators that exist on set to make sure that the actors and actresses aren't doing anything.

[Mallory Rubin]

So you at least expect. Now, if you see nudity on screen.

[Craig]

Do we need one for the rewatch.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hopefully that everybody involved was comfortable with and wanted to do it.

[Van Lathan]

Exactly. Now you feel. Because you know HBO is not going to hang their ass out in the air by not having the intimacy coordinator on set. In case somebody comes back and says, bill, you want an intimacy coordinator? You got to bring him in right.

[Craig]

Now at Sean Fantasy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Silent Judge.

[Craig]

Mr. Coordinator.

[Bill Simmons]

Silent Judge.

[Craig]

Silent Judge just kind of staring us down.

[Bill Simmons]

Unfortunately, he's not prepared to comment because he curled up into the fetal position so that he didn't have to hear anything we said about this movie. So, so true.

[Craig]

Well, no. Is Neve Campbell count as a redhead in this? Not totally.

[Bill Simmons]

Some dyed hair. But it's interesting that there are different versions of the nudity in this movie. You obviously have the very memorable Denise Richards Kelly nudity. Very memorable. Impacted a lot of lives.

[Craig]

Kelly Van Ryan.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Important stuff. Then you have Neve Campbell and the fact that Party of Five was still going. The contract didn't allow for nudity in other projects. So you have these scenes.

[Craig]

If I believe that, who knows? Both the Internet research.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Both the threesome scene. And I'm sure we'll talk about the unrated cut and the extended pool scene. But both of those are like, you get the back, the shirt is removed or the top is removed. You get the back, but we're not seeing the front. And then the Kevin Bacon story is like, I didn't. It was actually my contract that I would not do nudity. And I did not think I was going to be naked in this movie. And then that cut, that uncut, but to.

[Van Lathan]

But the penis he does gives. But then he turns around, they're like.

[Bill Simmons]

Can we use this take? And he says, you know how do I look? Sure, go for it.

[Craig]

I don't believe that one either.

[Bill Simmons]

You think he wanted the dick in there the whole time?

[Craig]

I think it was 100%. It was like, oh, I didn't realize.

[Van Lathan]

Do you know that like the.

[Bill Simmons]

I like that theory.

[Van Lathan]

The scene of the dick from Kevin Bacon was for me. Kevin Bacon had been with me for a while.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure. Of course.

[Van Lathan]

The big picture, like just all of the.

[Bill Simmons]

Footloose.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, footloose. And then you were 18 and you're like, yo, you're in the theaters and Baton Rouge was like, yo, was that his dick? Sure it was.

[Craig]

You put the dick.

[Van Lathan]

And then for a second you were a little mad, like, why? He put the dick in my face like that. And then you're like, oh, okay. Well, I know this guy.

[Craig]

That's the difference in movie theater experience versus like watching this at home. The sheer size on a 50 foot movie screen. That dick's coming at you. Yeah, like colonate. Bruce Wayne. Bruce put that thing away. Just trying to sit here having some popcorn.

[Van Lathan]

But really. But when I think about it, Oz. Oz is probably Oz. Broke out the dicks scene for scene. Yeah. That is the most. That's the pioneering dick show, at least in my life.

[Craig]

Well, they said Euphoria is apex mountain for dicks. I had a special dick episode.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a few. Right. The math is skewed because of the locker room sequence where you get, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens of dicks in one sequence.

[Craig]

There you go. Lots of dicks. Neve Campbell fell in love with her America. Party of five. That poor, tortured Salinger family lost their kids in a car accident. Had to keep the restaurant. Just one terrible thing after another would happen to those crazy kids.

[Van Lathan]

Party of five.

[Craig]

I love that show.

[Van Lathan]

So I never fucked with it.

[Craig]

May or may not own it on Roku or Voodoo, one of those.

[Van Lathan]

But when you think about it.

[Bill Simmons]

Old DVD box set.

[Craig]

No, it's a little like $1.99 special. I was like, fine.

[Van Lathan]

Matthew Fox, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Nev Campbell, J. Love.

[Craig]

Scott Wolf.

[Van Lathan]

Scott Wolf, Lisa Charbet. Like that.

[Craig]

One of the Londons, not Taste and Confused, but the other London. The other London. Not Randy Pink Floyd, but his brother, you know.

[Van Lathan]

The show went on to put a bunch of people in that stayed there for a while. It's a sneaky good incubator for future Hollywood stalwarts. Neve Campbell, Jennifer Love, Hugh and Matthew Fox. At least they're all still around.

[Craig]

Very important 90s show for talking to women and being able to Be versed in some of the shows that were coming on.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, because it gave you something to talk about with them? Not because it taught you how to talk to women?

[Craig]

No, not. Cause it taught me. It was just a nice little. Oh, Party Five. Yeah. What the fuck's going on with Bailey? He's drinking again. She'd be like, what you watched Party 5?

[Bill Simmons]

Which show?

[Craig]

Or I'm ready to go five minutes right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Which show or movie taught you how to talk to women? Wild things.

[Craig]

Which show or movie taught me.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, you'd have to go to.

[Craig]

The 80s for that, right?

[Van Lathan]

Okay, I'm interested in this. What's the conversation?

[Craig]

I mean, I would say it's more what taught you not to.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so more like tales of caution. What to avoid?

[Craig]

Yeah, like that.

[Bill Simmons]

Knowing you're modeling your behavior.

[Craig]

Don't do that one.

[Van Lathan]

Who you don't want to be the character you don't want to be in the movie.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Interesting. Who are those guys? Who are those guys?

[Craig]

It's more like the When Harry Met Sally type of people.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

The people that were mean and then came around and threw.

[Van Lathan]

Johnny Lawrence. Don't want to be him.

[Craig]

Don't want to be the villains.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Neve Campbell, Party of Five. This is the era of they take the person out of the TV show that everybody's watching. Party of Five almost got canceled every year. It was always after like 90210 or whatever Fox show. It was very beloved. People would try to save it. The audience was always just good enough to keep. But it became this movie engine with her and Jennifer Love Hewitt. So she's in the craft. She's the lead in Scream, which was a big deal. She's in Scream too, and she's in Wild Things. During this whole thing, she has to turn down Armageddon because of conflicts with Party of Five. And then it kind of tails off after that. But I think her problem, the peak of her run makes sense because she was really kind of a one move actress. It was kind of the perfect 90s actress fan. It was like a little bit like squinty, but you still liked her anyway. But maybe there was a little more under there and I don't know where there were a lot of places for her to go.

[Van Lathan]

Like, she had a vulnerability that made sense in that decade. Yeah.

[Craig]

You felt like you were rooting for her.

[Van Lathan]

Right, Right.

[Craig]

Which she hits in this movie.

[Van Lathan]

She totally hits it. Right. Certainly she hits it in the craft as well. Almost like the same character between this and very, very Similar. And then you wanted to see a different pitch from her in the 2000s.

[Craig]

Well, remember, she's in 54. She plays this big, demonstrative actress in the cocaine era. And it was just like, nah, I have too much history with you as this really thoughtful, sensitive.

[Bill Simmons]

Too much history sounds like more of a you problem than an evp.

[Craig]

It might have been a me problem, something to reflect. But I always liked her. I always thought on Party Five, I thought she was good on that show.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

It was one of my favorite, favorite thumb dramas. What's your Neve Campbell experiences, Mel?

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I think the missing slice of the Neve Campbell pie for me is just the Scream movies, because I don't. As you guys know, I don't do horror movies, so. But. But even just the. The heft, like, the grip that they had on the culture at that stretch of time in the 90s, it was inescapable. And so I had a sense of her prominence in those films and the way that those movies and that inspiring scary movie, et cetera. Right. Like, even though I wasn't watching them, I still had a good feel for them. But, yeah, Party of Five was a big deal for kids my age. And then this movie was like, you know, obviously, the movie in general, the naughty movie. Yeah. What we're getting from Neve Campbell and the movie, what we're getting from the Susie character, the kind of, like, salacious, tawdry aspect of the story, which, like, you know, I think the deployment of Susie and Kelly and Sam and Rhaen and really everything in the film. I mean, the mother, Sandra, maybe in some ways most of all, actually. I can't wait to talk more about Sandra. You know, you think about the movie and you're like, is this a good movie?

[Craig]

Does it matter?

[Bill Simmons]

It doesn't matter. It's so watchable. It is so inherently watchable and entertaining. And the Neve Campbell. Susie performance is just a huge part of that.

[Craig]

Well, it's also important that it was surprising that she was in this.

[Van Lathan]

That was surprising that Neve Campbell was in it.

[Craig]

Yeah. There's this thing that as the years pass, you don't realize the impact of, like, whoa, she's gonna be in a movie like that. Well, I forget her Salinger character. What was her name?

[Van Lathan]

I can't remember.

[Craig]

Party Five. I can't remember either, but the sounds.

[Van Lathan]

It was important for her to do the movie because of that fact.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Interesting in this film is that you're getting to know Denise Richards in this type of Erotic thriller. This is like the first time you're seeing her. And it's Neve Campbell's change of pace here. And even the character. Cause like you see that all the time, right? Like you see somebody that's known for being on Jennifer Love Hewitt has a version of that.

[Craig]

Sarah Michelle Gellar was a really good one. For Cruel Intentions.

[Van Lathan]

For Cruel Intentions.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh my God.

[Van Lathan]

Where'd this come from? You see this and then you. And then you see someone. Okay. I don't want to be typecast. I want to break out of the beloved, lovable world. Julia Salinger, Anne Hathaway does that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

Like, she does that. She does it with brokeback mouth.

[Craig]

She went in early though. Cause she was in havoc.

[Van Lathan]

Havoc.

[Craig]

She was like, don't pigeonhole me. I'm not Princess Diaries.

[Van Lathan]

Not Princess Diaries. I gotta get out of this as soon as possible. If my career tails off, at least even for a year, two years, because I shocked my old fan base. It's worth it. So Neve Campbell's in that space and then Denise Richards. This is how we know her. So she's going to have to find in her career at some point a way out of being the Siren sexpot, which she couldn't really do it. And Neve Campbell was trying to find her way out of being, you know, beloved by America.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's then like in a kind of meta way, really effective in some side of the movie. Because Susie is the character we have to be most surprised by.

[Van Lathan]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So that like actually benefits the movie. And I think it's interesting because a lot like younger women and female performers are probably the characters we would point to the most who feel compelled to do that. That's still happening. It's happening with everybody all the time. Like, I mean, Daniel Radcliffe was like the thing I need to do after Harry Potter or at the end of Harry Potter is Sarn Equus and show my dick on stage. Right. So this is. This is always going to be a thing to show. Like you can, especially if you're associated deeply with an iconic character that has like a grip on younger people and something about like a coming of age tale in particular. There's a compulsion to try to break out of that.

[Craig]

It's really hard with the TV. The 80s and 90s, people very rarely were able to escape, like how big the show was.

[Van Lathan]

I'll tell you why is because even.

[Craig]

Our guy Noah Wylie, I mean, how long did it take him to just not be ER's Noah Wiley anymore? Thriving on the pit 20 years.

[Bill Simmons]

Thriving on the pit.

[Craig]

25 years.

[Van Lathan]

They're still a movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Emmy winner.

[Van Lathan]

There's still a movie. There was a TBS made for cable movie where he plays Steve Jobs. Like Pirates of the Silicon Valley. Yeah, I remember watching that. That was like late 90s. You can't find the movie anywhere now. Yeah, it's called Pirates of Silicon Valley. He is Steve Jobs and is Anthony Michael Hall. Bill Gates. Jesus in the movie? I think Anthony Michael hall is Bill Gates in the movie. It's a good little movie. That's when I first realized Steve Jobs was the way he was. So it took him a while to get out, but I remember seeing. Oh, he can do other stuff right there. But those 80 stars, one thing about them and why they couldn't break out is. Cause that was almost the last generation. Maybe you get to Fresh Prince of those primetime shows being actually about the kids.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So the kids were the leads. Like, so in different strokes. It was about the Arnold and his brother. Like the kids. Punky Brewster was about Punky Brewster. The whole show, Blossom was about. The whole show was about those kids. And they kind of stopped doing that. Like they. Those shows didn't exist anymore. So people were like, Boy Meets World.

[Craig]

Was the last kind of era.

[Van Lathan]

Kind of the last one.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this also just like volume? Right. You know, TV shows now in the streaming era, it's six, eight, 10 episodes. Euphoria. Euphoria is on every three to five years. And those people are.

[Craig]

Then you have time to film shit.

[Bill Simmons]

Incredibly famous and are doing.

[Craig]

Whereas like Nev Campbell could have been an Armageddon if party five was doing 22 episodes.

[Bill Simmons]

Network TV. Right, exactly. It's 20, 24 weeks of your year that those people are in your lives as that character, like Zendaya. There are a lot of people who are going to say, rue is my first association with Zendaya. And then there are going to be way more people who would be baffled by that. Right, Right.

[Van Lathan]

But Rue. But Ru, for Zendaya, he spent six.

[Bill Simmons]

Hours with Ru every five years.

[Van Lathan]

But that's. That's Zendaya's version of being taken seriously as an actress, of giving you something a little darker. Cause before then, Zendaya is on Disney. And then Zendaya does Dancing with the Stars when she's like 17, trying to get herself out there.

[Craig]

I totally forgot that when she was.

[Van Lathan]

Like 17, she's on dancing with the Stars trying to get herself out there.

[Craig]

I saw a clip of that recently.

[Van Lathan]

Then she does music for a while and she's still existing in youth culture. Like, she's young, pretty Disney. Zendaya. Then Spider Man. Then she goes, let me show that I'm a grown up. And she does the Ru character.

[Craig]

See, this could have happened. Challengers Jason Priestley and Luke Perry. They just weren't stuck doing 32 episodes a year on 9020. God only knows how many movies they were doing.

[Bill Simmons]

How could you say that about your most sacred text?

[Van Lathan]

Luke Perry tried.

[Craig]

Luke Perry did try. But Euphoria. All of those people became stars that were good on the show because they didn't have to do the show that much.

[Van Lathan]

All like Luke Perry ended up finding himself creatively later on in life. Cause that's actually a number one. He's good. These guys had their chances. Remember the. The terrible Calendar Girls movie with Jason Priestley in it? They didn't have it like they.

[Craig]

No, you're probably right.

[Van Lathan]

They had their chances. Like Jason Priestley, they're like great college.

[Craig]

Quarterbacks that just couldn't. Couldn't play in the NFL. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like Zendaya is one of our most talented and capable performers. So that's not actually a comp for any of the.

[Craig]

Lindsay Lohan was another one that started. She came out of that Disney universe.

[Bill Simmons]

And actually Parent Trap, one of the best movies ever made.

[Craig]

She actually was able to parlay. But a lot of those, like all the shows my kids watched, none of those kids really ended up kids that I thought were good actors when I watched the show, like Jesse and all these shows, you wouldn't know.

[Van Lathan]

Well, some of them. I mean, Miley, I guess, Lizzie McGuire. Some of these people got good stuff going on.

[Craig]

Miley can be as an artist. Yeah, but I'm talking like people that started out on those things and then became actual actors. Denise Richards, Seinfeld. Memorable Seinfeld appearance as the daughter of an NBA executive and a NBC executive. And she's bending over and George looks at her cleavage and it almost sabotages the pilot. She was in Melrose Place for a couple episodes as Loni Anderson's daughter trying to do a scheme on Dr. Michael Mancini. That happened. She was in Starship Troopers.

[Bill Simmons]

That's right.

[Craig]

Of course. A beloved movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Absolutely love.

[Craig]

She was in Drop Dead Gorgeous. And then Wild Things was when this really kicked off. And then everything culminated. She's in the World Is Not Enough in a Bond movie. And she plays like a nuclear physicist or something.

[Van Lathan]

Nuclear physicist.

[Craig]

And somehow isn't named after the category we have because we named after Elizabeth Shue.

[Bill Simmons]

Shocking.

[Van Lathan]

Dr. Christmas Jones.

[Bill Simmons]

That would've been another good one.

[Craig]

Denise Richards. And then she got Charlie Sheen. She met Charlie Sheen and her career was never the same.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you watch Million Dollar Listing la or did you watch it when it was on?

[Craig]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, great real estate show. I'm surprised you didn't watch it. Denise Richards was on it last season as a friend of one of the brokers. Josh Flack just appeared in an episode.

[Craig]

Really?

[Bill Simmons]

Yes. I was like, oh, my God, it's Denise Richards.

[Craig]

I saw her. The Charlie Sheen documentary, which I did not like, but she was in that. But yeah, this was it. This was a really hot. She flew very close to the sun in one movie and that's kind of where it ended.

[Bill Simmons]

I was gonna save this for Apex Mountain, but let's just. Let's do it now. Gonna ask you guys now, emerging from a swimming pool in a bathing suit, sopping wet, is it this or Phoebe Cates?

[Craig]

No, this. It's probably this.

[Van Lathan]

It's probably this. I'll tell you what this is.

[Bill Simmons]

I would say it's Phoebe Cates. Interesting.

[Craig]

Phoebe Cates from a cultural impact. But this is like.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, well, this is a 1B for that type of scene. It's emerging from the swimming pool is probably. That might be a tie. I thought you meant whether or not this was the apex mountain of Phoebe Cates or the apex mountain of Denise Richards.

[Craig]

Her actually emerging from.

[Bill Simmons]

Emerging from a pool.

[Van Lathan]

I got a pool and your suit.

[Bill Simmons]

Is clinging to the pool.

[Craig]

We need more people emerging from pools.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, great. It's probably Phoebe Cates.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, great.

[Van Lathan]

Don't hate on Jessica Biel and Summer Catch.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. I mean, talk about a great movie. Talk about a seminal movie in my youth.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Then we have Matt Dillon, who was a big up and comer in the 80s for a while and led a bunch of movies and was right at the forefront of that Timothy Hutton cruise. All those guys. He was probably the most successful guy for a while. Outsiders had a big role.

[Bill Simmons]

Yep.

[Craig]

Just like from a. Felt like he was gonna be the most famous. Died down a little. Came back in the mid-90s to die for beautiful girls in N out, 98 wild things and There's Something About Mary.

[Bill Simmons]

In the Same Year.

[Craig]

Same year.

[Bill Simmons]

It's astonishing.

[Craig]

Great job by him.

[Van Lathan]

One of the leading tweeners. Oh, yeah, tweeners. Like what happened to a lot of these guys? And Kevin Bacon is in that crew too. Is the ceiling got set so fucking high by Hanks and Cruz and Brad Pitt and then the guys right under that ceiling. If you're talking about, like, Bruce, it was just an enormously high ceiling that there was a group of tweeners that you could really rely on to give you good performances and good movies and stuff.

[Craig]

Rob Lowe's in there, I think too.

[Van Lathan]

Rob Lowe to a degree.

[Craig]

Judd Nelson for two years. Jed fucked it up.

[Van Lathan]

But like, a lot of. For a while, Emilio Estevez was in there for a while.

[Craig]

He's still there for me, of course.

[Van Lathan]

But to me, all of those guys in there, like, who was the best of those guys that would lead those types of movies. Leading movies, but not like a plus list movie stars. He was way up there.

[Bill Simmons]

This is like the perfect use of him. And really this is the perfect year for him because he gets to be so funny and there's something about Mary. But in this movie, it's like he is handsome enough and enough of a leading man to be convincing. Not only in the, like, you know, you think of the opening stretch of the film where you kind of the cameras initially like his eyes and then we move to the back of his head and every one of the students is looking at him and they all want to fuck him. And you're like, oh, he can be. Have this effect on people. But he's also a little off enough, like just a little creepy enough that you buy every subsequent situation and reveal across the film. Then you believe it when you get the line from Ray, like in the Jimmy scene, you know, he didn't have to work his way through college on a boat. Like he was there on an athletic scholarship at Miami. You believe that. So you kind of think that he's enough of a creepy to be fucking his students and become embroiled in this plot.

[Craig]

But he's also kind of funny in a. In like a very under the radar way charming kind of funny. I don't understand how everyone in Blue Baby, he was a great villain in My Bodyguard.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

Which is an awesome movie that is probably too old now to do, you know. You know what that movie is? No, he's the villain. He's like a high school bully. And this kid who's getting bullied by him hires this kind of big scary kid to be his bodyguard. And it's just really good. And Matt Dillon was like a great villain in it.

[Van Lathan]

I would think about guys like Matt Dillon. Cause, you know, for a long time I felt like Nicolas Cage was kind of in that purgatory. And then Leaving Las Vegas comes out and you go, well, no, like he.

[Craig]

There's more coming out of him.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, there's more to him. But like this role is perfect for him because the character can't really be anything. He's never what we think that he is. He's actually the subversion of.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes, exactly.

[Van Lathan]

Of like the erotic thriller guy from earlier in the decade. Earlier in the decade, the erotic thriller was take beautiful, Crazy, beautiful lady, put them with the most straight laced male, and then watch this lady's sexuality sort of corrupt this guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's like playing on our expectations that he could actually be the leading man, but isn't.

[Van Lathan]

But he isn't. At the end. He's basically the. The pansy. Not the. What's the word I'm looking for? Potsy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Patsy.

[Van Lathan]

Patsy. Patsy. I couldn't find it. The patsy of the entire film. He's just handsome enough to have everybody want to fuck him, but he's also dumb enough to be duped, to be played outmaneuvered by a high school student.

[Craig]

Kind of looks like Craig a little bit.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he does.

[Craig]

Craig. Tiny bit.

[Van Lathan]

It's Craig.

[Mallory Rubin]

Kind of don't know where I'm going either. I could turn bad. You don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

How do you feel about sailing?

[Mallory Rubin]

I like sailing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You know how to work a winch?

[Van Lathan]

Guess what? Nah. I'm waiting for it.

[Mallory Rubin]

For my turn.

[Van Lathan]

I'm waiting for your dark side to be revealed.

[Craig]

I know it's sailing class.

[Van Lathan]

I know it's there.

[Craig]

Sailing class.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, Craig. Yeah. I don't buy it. Your whole act, your whole thing.

[Craig]

Don't get too nice.

[Van Lathan]

Don't get nervous. Don't get nervous.

[Craig]

I'm watching you, Craig.

[Van Lathan]

I want to let you know right now, I've been onto you since starting. I don't buy it, Craig.

[Mallory Rubin]

I will say, ever since American Gangster, when I was like, he should have shot him in the head.

[Bill Simmons]

That's.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, no.

[Mallory Rubin]

Shot him in the heart.

[Van Lathan]

Shot him in the heart so you could see him.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could watch him die.

[Van Lathan]

You know what's happening?

[Bill Simmons]

The recent reveal on the fantasy show that you've been an extra on a bunch of movies but can't remember what they were.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's. I don't remember which. Fast movie.

[Bill Simmons]

It was serial killer stuff.

[Craig]

Can I give you a Matt Dillon. Matt Dillon. I think the issue with his career, and it was a great career, is.

[Bill Simmons]

That he was nominated for an Oscar.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Talk about his prime. Crash became like his. That's part of the problem.

[Bill Simmons]

Yep.

[Craig]

But this, this. That was one of our only rewatchable roasts that we've done. Here's the thing. He Was the original choice for Butch in Pulp Fiction and couldn't do it or turned it down and ended up going to Bruce Willis, man. And I think he.

[Bill Simmons]

Turning down his career needs.

[Craig]

That is brutal. He might have had another thing. It might have been, I can't do it, or I'm already committed to this other piece. I think that really would have been good for him. And then Kevin Bacon's the last one we got to talk about.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

You know, at this point, I think Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon existed because he had been in so many movies. I'm going to say late 90s, that kind of started. Yeah, everybody liked him. He'd been in a bunch. He kept having resurgences. And he's another tweener. Like, what Van was just talking about. He was like. He had his moment with Footloose. He was always at his best as like, the second, third Scottie Pippen type guy. And this was like, perfect for him. And then we're gonna talk about him more later.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the random1 was wild 94. 94.

[Craig]

The random1 was Bill Murray being in this, which was stupefying.

[Bill Simmons]

It's astonishing.

[Craig]

Did you know he was in this, Craig?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, no idea.

[Craig]

What was your reaction?

[Mallory Rubin]

He was delightful. I thought he was so good in it. I really enjoyed him.

[Craig]

Really strange.

[Mallory Rubin]

He changed the tone of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

It radically changes the tone of the movie. It's one of the more emblemat of, like, I don't quite know how the movie gets away with something that jarring as a shame, like My Cousin Vinny for a little bit.

[Mallory Rubin]

But, yeah, I really. I loved him.

[Van Lathan]

It's difficult if you weren't around then, like Bill Murray is now, of course, but even more so then, was just a massive, massive, huge, gigantic star and a comedy staple. This is post Groundhog's Day. This is the motherfucker from Ghostbusters.

[Craig]

He already had his second run in the early Ninet.

[Van Lathan]

So, yeah, he's back. To see him in the movie, it almost in some way gave the movie an odd credibility. Like, this is.

[Craig]

Yeah, I was trying to think who would be the person right now in this movie that would have the Bill Murray bump that would, like, bump that. If Will Ferrell was the detective, you'd be like, whoa, Will Ferrell. What's he doing in this?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, that's good.

[Craig]

But it's like someone maybe even, like, a little more famous than Will Ferrell.

[Mallory Rubin]

I wish more stars.

[Van Lathan]

Will Ferrell maybe in, like, 2011 or 2012.

[Mallory Rubin]

I wish more stars did this because apparently he was just buddies with the director of this movie. Can I be in it? And they're like, sure. And 10 minutes of a star just being like, you know what? I don't need to get $10 million to do this. I'll just go in and have fun. It makes the movie so much better.

[Craig]

But I've always said, this is what I wish people like Cruz and a couple others had just been like, yeah, I'll show up for a week and film five scenes.

[Bill Simmons]

He did, like, 20 minutes in the movie, right?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And it actually, like, it's funny to look back and see that Kevin Bacon has lead billing on the movie, which, like.

[Craig]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I guess in terms of his celebrity and his stature makes sense, but in terms of the role of Ray Duquette in the film really doesn't make sense at all, actually. But Bill Murray, you do kind of forget he's in the film until you go watch it. There's so many delightful little things that kind of prep you subtly, even though the tone is really out of sync with the rest of the movie for, like, what we're watching, you know, the fact that he's wearing the fake neck braces, like, oh, I don't have to wear it all the time. The insurance guy was here earlier. And then you. You go back to his office and you pan the wall, and it's like, all of his clients thanking him in their fake crutches and their fake braces because he's like, I'm running cons. So even though the fifth Stinger, you know, the reveal that he was in on it with Susie the whole time, was apparently, like, added late, which is one of the more shocking nuggets about this movie. You're actually maybe most prepared the entire time for him to be revealed as a part of the plot because he's, like, a scumbag. He's a con man.

[Van Lathan]

And also, it's Bill Murray.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So the whole time that you're looking at the movie, at least for me, you're like, I'm waiting for the reason why is Bill Murray here, why he's in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's what's weird about it, is, like, that wasn't apparently wasn't why he was there. He wasn't brought in to, like, be the big reveal at the end, handing over a briefcase of cash.

[Craig]

They're like, he wanted to do it. It's like asking somebody to join the Rewatchables. Yeah, sure. I'm free Friday.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm available.

[Craig]

Bill Murray's like, he literally the director was John McNaughton who they did Mad Dog and Glory with Robert De Niro, which is a weird movie. But that guy did Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer, which was one of the scariest movies I've ever seen in the theater especially. Cause I've not seen that film.

[Van Lathan]

I will not be seeing that film legitimately.

[Bill Simmons]

Not for me.

[Van Lathan]

Legitimately unsettling.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a pass for me.

[Van Lathan]

Like a legitimately. I went through this thing when I was a kid when I wanted to see every movie that was rated NC17. Like when I first found out about NC17, if I saw NC17, I just grabbed it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes, it fors it.

[Van Lathan]

Legitimately unsettling movie. That's why Michael Rooker for a long time couldn't deal with it.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, interesting.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Cause like the legitimately unsettling movie.

[Craig]

Yeah, more unsettling before. But I saw it in Boston at the Kenmore Theater by myself and there was like six, seven other people by themselves. And like halfway through the theater you start kind of doing this like am I, Is this how I'm gonna die? Is somebody here getting ideas? They're like I'm gonna watch half of this movie, then kill somebody. So he's in his having fun stage here. Cause he's in Kingpin Wild Things Rushmore Bill Murray's just doing. He's like, yeah, sure, I'll do this. We'll take a break. And then there's a couple other things we gotta talk about before we get to the categories. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step by step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way. Add expert assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. This episode is brought to you by Firehouse Subs. Who just dropped a game changing sandwich? The French dip. Literally one of my favorite sandwiches. Slash subs. Roast beef, caramelized onions, melty cheese, little freshly toasted garlic butter roll and the warm savory au jus. I've been eating these forever. Since I was living on the east coast in la. I think to me this versus the cheesesteak. The French dip. No contest, way better. And I think it's really because of the au jus. I don't know anybody who doesn't like au jus. An elite game Day sub Fun to order, by the way, if you want it delivered. Because they usually put the au jus in the special little container. You can pour it on. Knock yourself out. The French tip here for a limited time. I wish it was longer. Only at Firehouse Subs. Limited time at participating Firehouse Subs restaurants while supplies last. Kevin Bacon said in an interview that there were so many lies and twists in the script, they had to actually figure out a way to keep track of what the motivations were as they're filming it, based on what they should know and shouldn't know. This movie has so many twists. I think it's the only time I've ever seen a closing credits where then.

[Bill Simmons]

They kind of explain the movie.

[Craig]

Yeah, the version of the movie you're watching. They want you to experience it a certain way. And then it's over. And you're like, oh, I know now. I know it was Neve Campbell. And then they're like, no, actually, we're gonna go backwards. Here's some other stuff that now we're gonna. And I've never seen that work. I can't believe it worked. Because I love it. I love the closing credits.

[Bill Simmons]

I will. I would say that like a key performer in a film coming out in interviews and saying basically every time we went to act out a scene, we had to be reminded of what our characters motivations were and what was happening when. Because the plot was so deranged and convoluted and full of twists and turns that we couldn't remember who we were supposed to be, why we were supposed to be doing what we were doing. Is bor. It's maybe beyond borderline disqualifying for the plot and script of the film. Just part of the lore here. It just makes us love it more. It's like the absurdity and the fact that, like, simultaneously, nothing about the story holds up to scrutiny, but also the fact that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny is part of its charm. Like, they're just fueling the myth.

[Craig]

Because there's like a hundred nitpicks in this.

[Van Lathan]

I only have one nitpick, one row. We'll get to it. It's more about us. A question for us.

[Bill Simmons]

Exciting.

[Van Lathan]

There's only one other movie that, when I was thinking about this, that I thought about that towards the end of the film, the twist. Then you go back through the film with the character and it changes. Angelheart.

[Craig]

Oh, Lou Cipher.

[Van Lathan]

Louis Cipher. And then you realize that he's actually killed all of these people. And then he's on the elevator to hell and he's realizing it and you're.

[Craig]

Spoiling New Orleans month.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my bad. Yeah, New Orleans month. And then he. But like, in a real way, the movie is effective in doing the same thing for every character. Making a hero, then making a villain, then making a hero and then making a villain. By the end of this film, the biggest victim in the entire movie is Kelly.

[Craig]

Kelly Van Ryj.

[Van Lathan]

Kelly Van Rhin. Because she is doing everything that she's doing just because she's in love with the older guidance counselor at who has manipulated her. I can't tell in the movie whether or not Neve Campbell's character is the hero or the villain. Cause she's the. She gets treated like a piece of shit because she's from the wrong side of the tracks. So she's taking it out on all of these upper crust people, but at the same time she really fucks over a lot of people and kills them all.

[Craig]

And then McDonald liked that though. He was like, who wins in the end? The girl in the trailer park.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I really think the movie's point of view is that she's the hero and that like she managed to take out all of these people who in some way contributed to her plight.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Craig]

Yeah. He said some of us had parents who insisted their children have an education, go to college, escape all that. Other ones, parents didn't care if their kid dropped out of school. That's where my heart always is.

[Van Lathan]

There you go.

[Craig]

Stay with the trailer parks. Kevin Bacon said the script was the trashiest thing he ever read. Couldn't wait to do it. Craig Century club. This movie's 108 minutes. It's a plus. I guess it's a minus eight for you. What do you think?

[Mallory Rubin]

Wonderful score, no notes. Perfect 108.

[Craig]

You wouldn't cut 8?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I have problems with. I think there should have been an extra 60 seconds in this movie that I was promised. That was not there.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, did you watch the unrated extended cut?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I thought. Should we just do it now?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

The pool scene is the famous scene from this movie. I have never seen this movie, but I know that scene. Yeah, it's not in the movie on Netflix. Was it not in theaters?

[Craig]

That scene, the pool scene's on Netflix, but it's. It's shorter version.

[Mallory Rubin]

They don't really do anything. The scene that is the famous scene is she takes her top off in the pool, which is not in the Netflix.

[Van Lathan]

Oh no, not in the original cut. No, that wasn't it. If you went to the movie to see it, you didn't see that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, wow.

[Van Lathan]

It goes from her. She gets out of the pool, he's on the phone, they fight and then you're out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Cause they kiss for like a second and then it kind of transitions.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You get the finger in the mouth. Oh, you are scared. There's like. Oh, there's still like.

[Craig]

You did get Kevin Bacon with the camera to kill.

[Van Lathan]

He's in there.

[Bill Simmons]

Genuinely might be my single favorite moment in the film.

[Van Lathan]

Dressed down. He's dressed down. He's skeezy sleazy now. Yeah.

[Craig]

You're prepared for anything with him.

[Bill Simmons]

I see them watching him watching it on the monitor.

[Mallory Rubin]

When did the famous scene then become famous?

[Craig]

The director's.

[Bill Simmons]

But the Motel Threesome is also a very famous.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I didn't know about that much.

[Van Lathan]

I was much more famous to me. But in the 2000s, we got into the unrated era. Director's cut, unrated era with a new extra 15 minutes. And so they would get you to go buy the DVD by doing that. So when the shit. By the time the shit probably got to the Internet.

[Craig]

Complimentary vial of hand cream. 15 extra minutes. Watch party. Best setting for a watch or rewatch. Solo is an option here.

[Van Lathan]

You gotta be by yourself.

[Craig]

Five o'. Clocker.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Or you could do like what Mallory had. Our parents are now asleep. Let's go grab Wild Things. So, like for that 12 parts when.

[Bill Simmons]

You'Re young in those formative years, you know, and the next thing that happens at those parties is spin the Bottle or Seven Minutes in Heaven or something like that.

[Craig]

It's just Wild Things, boy.

[Van Lathan]

Rest in peace, dad. This was one of dad's all time great goddamns. My dad had great goddamns. Like, we in the house. He walking out. He got his saddle. Boy, I wish my sister was here. He got his saddle over his. And me and Ryan, we looking at the movie. My dad go, what they doing? Denise Richards stays on top of him.

[Bill Simmons]

He go, God damn.

[Van Lathan]

All right, y' all be careful now. Watching too much of this. And then he went outside and saddled the horse up the road.

[Bill Simmons]

Incredible.

[Van Lathan]

Great. Goddamn.

[Craig]

That would be a good category. The goddamn category.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah, some good goddamns from him when he saw stuff and heard his stuff.

[Craig]

$20 million budget made $67.2 million. Followed by three directed DVD sequels, which is another sign we're in the right hands. Crazy Wild Things. Two Wild Things. Diamonds in the Rough.

[Bill Simmons]

Yep.

[Craig]

And Wild Things Foursome.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the best titles ever.

[Craig]

I Don't have no idea what happens in those movies or who's in them, but I'm sure they're on Tubi.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the titles tell you everything you need to know.

[Van Lathan]

Honestly, one of them I watched because it had one of the great beauties, you know. You guys remember Layla Arciera?

[Craig]

Remember her? No.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, man. She was in the Q Tip video. I think it was vibrant thing. And then she was on a show called Son of the Beach.

[Craig]

Remember Son of the Beach? That's produced by Howard Stern.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. She was on that show. And then she did the Wild Things movie and we thought that maybe she was gonna have her Denise Richards moment. She's always beautiful, so I went to see it. But she.

[Craig]

You know, it's funny that Denise Richards moment. There's probably a lot dozens of actresses who were probably waiting for a moment like that and it just never happened.

[Van Lathan]

Never happened.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah. It really like it's time movie scene. It has to hit the zeitgeist in some way. And it happened. It hit it for Roger Ebert.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure did. This is an all time Roger Ebert.

[Craig]

Three stars for Raj. Are you surprised?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Incredible lurid trash with a plot so twisted they're still explaining it during the closing titles. It's like a three way collision between a softcore sex film, a soap opera and a B grade noir. I loved it.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're so back.

[Bill Simmons]

Summed it up perfectly. Honestly captured it actually.

[Craig]

You said I liked it, not I loved it.

[Van Lathan]

I owned it.

[Craig]

That you love.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's right.

[Van Lathan]

There used to be a place in our movie making culture for well made trash.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Craig]

But here's the thing.

[Van Lathan]

Just a movie that was just entertaining.

[Craig]

But they're trying to make this movie all the time. They just fuck it up all the time. You could go anywhere, any. Pick a streamer. There's 50 versions of this movie and they fucked them up. They had the wrong star. The plot's bad. They're taking it to see the twist miles away. What's good about this is they know what they're making the whole time and they're having a good time as they do.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it also gets back to what you guys were saying at the beginning. Like the illicit nature of, oh, if you go see. See this.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You'll see boobs or you'll see a dick or like a great. You know, actually on the Phoebe case, fast times front. You know, there's in. In Stranger Things when they work at the. The family video store. And one of the things Steve Harrington said is like, you Know who pauses fast times at like, you know, 58 minutes or whatever? People who like boobies. Right. Like the narrative springs up around the film. You don't. To your point from earlier, you don't need to do that today.

[Craig]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

So there's not the same, like word of mouth. There's not the same kind of cult following around the movie because it's not like there's nothing elicit about it anymore. That stuff's everywhere.

[Van Lathan]

You know what? Could you make an argument that maybe the housemaid is sort of.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's not because people are like, I need to go see the housemaid to see Sydney Sweeney in a certain way. You can get that. You could go buy her bathroom.

[Craig]

I like your point though. You know, Housemaid, which I thought was really egregiously bad.

[Bill Simmons]

Terrible.

[Craig]

Yeah, I didn't see it. I watched the whole thing. And I do think it was trying to do some of the Wild Things stuff. It didn't have the sense of humor that Wild Things has, I think. And it obviously didn't have anyone like Bill Murray just popping in for two years.

[Bill Simmons]

Wild Things is very self aware in a way that obviously, like some people don't appreciate and some people are still cherishing decades later, like us.

[Van Lathan]

But it's also. It's kind of beautiful. Like everyone looks good, it's sleazy. South Florida is a character.

[Craig]

That's the thing we should have talked about South Florida. It's just a great movie location. It really is. Because you can go to the rich part. You can go to the grimier part where they're like fucking wrestling alligators. And these dive bars that look really cool. There's swamps.

[Bill Simmons]

They're trying to tap into that spirit in Outer Banks. Very pogues and kooks. Two sides of this community, this resort town.

[Craig]

Well, a movie that did it really well that's been on the rewatchables list for two years that I know Van has revisited many times at a time. Denzel Washington.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, hell yeah.

[Craig]

Another fucking awesome movie. Which has now been ripped off by the his and her show on Netflix. Cause it's the same premise of like this cop. He was involved with the lady that just got murdered, but doesn't want to find out yet. It kind of invented that. I don't remember seeing that before.

[Van Lathan]

And out of Time is moving fast. It's moving fast and it's very smooth.

[Craig]

And it just. Denzel being all the Denzel pieces.

[Van Lathan]

I like sweaty stuff in the movie.

[Craig]

He's sweaty, he's horny.

[Van Lathan]

Do you Know Heaven's Prisoners with Alec Baldwin?

[Craig]

That's New Orleans Month.

[Van Lathan]

Sweaty Southern movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm interested.

[Van Lathan]

Harry's in that one.

[Craig]

I've told this story before, but Jack O and I went to see that and I spilled the popcorn right before the nude scene, and he went down to pick it up and missed the nude scene. And he's still upset about it? Oh, no, he still brings it up every once in a while.

[Van Lathan]

But. Yeah. So, like, South Florida works and then all the subtext between the classes and stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You know, the movie gives you a lot to look at.

[Craig]

Heaven's Prisoners, Angel's Heart.

[Van Lathan]

Angel Heart.

[Craig]

Angel Heart, New Orleans Mom. Angel's Heart was like. It sounds like a little kid movie.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Heaven's Prisoners, Angel Heart, Tightrope with Clint Eastwood.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, that's a good one.

[Craig]

Yeah, I'd have a one for us Month. Yeah, it's when we're off Netflix and we're on, like, stars. Most features that I've seen.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I really enjoy the Boating. The Boating. The one person boating class. Always aggressive when you have one person in the class. I always like when they have movies like that.

[Bill Simmons]

There are technically other students who, like, very quickly leave their other boats. But he's mostly giving attention to all.

[Craig]

He cares about this. Anyway, we go from that to the Jeep ride to the Van Ryjn's, which has a big VR on the gates. During this little stretch, we have Kelly Van Ryan acting all flirty with Matt Dillon. We have Kelly Van Rhijn and Susie singing each other and being bitchy, and she does that weird tongue thing. We have Sandra the mom coming out with the bikini on. And then we have Kid Cudi, Pursuit of Happiness Award winner. Because we get Third Eye Blind right into why Can't We Be Friends? We're just fucking cranking it. I don't know what happened with the soundtrack. It's like they ran out of money. 40 minutes in, we're on this amazing pace of late 90s music, and then it just ends.

[Mallory Rubin]

Such a good call. I thought the same thing. I was like, oh, my God, we're.

[Craig]

Cooking with Where's Everclear? It's like Everclear's lawyer stops, and then all of a sudden, we ran out of money.

[Van Lathan]

Actually, I think maybe it was thematic because the early parts of this movie is we're in high school, things are lighter, and then when things turn, all you get is like, the jazz score.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cause some of it's diegetic. Like they're actually listening to those songs driving in The Jeep.

[Craig]

Can we talk about Sandra, the mom?

[Bill Simmons]

I would love to.

[Van Lathan]

Theresa Randall.

[Craig]

I don't know anyone who can handle my boat the way you can.

[Bill Simmons]

Incredible stuff.

[Craig]

Every line she says sounds like it came right out of a porn emasculates.

[Van Lathan]

Homeboy from behind.

[Bill Simmons]

Frankie. Frankie. That was tough.

[Mallory Rubin]

He seemed like he was doing a good job.

[Van Lathan]

I thought he was handling her boat perfectly.

[Bill Simmons]

Some incredible physics in that scene because they're obviously nude and fucking. But she's wearing high heels and he's holding the heels.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

For leverage. Really memorable for me. Kidney stuff.

[Van Lathan]

He's trying to live up to what Sam Lombardo. He's trying to get every bit of. He's trying to do a Sam Lombardo.

[Craig]

He can't do it because Teresa Russell is the actress. She had a cup of coffee in the 80s.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

Black Widow. Deborah Winger. Okay, lights out performance.

[Van Lathan]

One of my all time favorites.

[Craig]

She basically, like discount Kathleen Turner.

[Bill Simmons]

Exactly.

[Craig]

Kathleen Turner turned it down. She was.

[Bill Simmons]

They look a lot like borderline doppelganger.

[Craig]

Not a very good actress.

[Van Lathan]

Unfortunately not. She sucks in this movie. Like, she's. She's.

[Craig]

She sucks for all the right reasons, though.

[Van Lathan]

I know.

[Craig]

It's just like perfect. It works.

[Van Lathan]

It works. But every line is delivered. Terrible.

[Craig]

Really bad.

[Van Lathan]

But like, horror was one of the films that I would watch.

[Craig]

Ken Russell's Whore.

[Van Lathan]

Ken Russell's Whore.

[Craig]

I wish John was there. He'd be like. Like just an amazing 4k transfer of horror arrow videos.

[Bill Simmons]

I watched the 4k of this. The Arrow transferred is great.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, they have a whole bunch of deleted scenes. All kinds of things. The car wash scene in my notes, I wrote there.

[Bill Simmons]

Where's your hose, Mr. Simmons?

[Craig]

Mal, come on in my notes. Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

I was going to open the pot with that, but there wasn't an opportunity.

[Craig]

That'S gonna get cut out. No, not cut out of the pot. Cut out of social media. On the rigor.

[Bill Simmons]

Right in front of the Jeep in.

[Craig]

This car wash seat. I wrote that in my notes. Two words. Just gratuitous, exclamation point.

[Bill Simmons]

It's perfect.

[Craig]

Fucking going for it in this thing.

[Bill Simmons]

The I want what I want needle drop here is, I think, iconic. It's unbelievable.

[Craig]

This is Van didn't even see the rest of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Immediate wave. The five year waiting period for the white Girl hall of Fame. She's like, done. I don't need to see the rest.

[Van Lathan]

Of the movie yet.

[Bill Simmons]

No, she stopped being wed in the foyer.

[Van Lathan]

Van's like a van when there are a couple of people that when they burst onto the scene, they burst onto that motherfucker. And this is one of them. You see her?

[Craig]

She is the Jordan 63 point game. Oh, my God. He's.

[Bill Simmons]

He's.

[Craig]

She's. He's doing this to the 86 Celtics.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, for sure. Like, there was a couple of times maybe you could argue Liv Tyler had a moment like that.

[Craig]

Maybe it would be funny if we blew out the white girl hall of fame and made it like an actual show. Like the ESPYs, with, like, presenters.

[Van Lathan]

I'm into it. Me, RG3. Like, you know what I mean? A couple other people, we do it. They. People get mad. But, like, we. We haven't.

[Craig]

Please welcome Viva K. Fox and Emmanuel Acho. They come out. Next scene I had to write. This is not one of the most rewatchable scenes, but it is for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Craig]

Kelly tells her mom what happens, what happened.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

It's probably the worst two minutes of acting in rewatchable's history.

[Bill Simmons]

You're not compelled to watch. I'm reaching to gently pet my daughter's head and calm her, but I don't know how to make an emotional connection.

[Craig]

I feel like Theresa Russell is reading cue cards behind Denise Richards head. She's so bad.

[Van Lathan]

Everything that she's in, in the movie.

[Craig]

Something happened to you. What's wrong, my dear? It's just. You can't. And then it cuts to the police station and her saying the line, my daughter does not get raped in Blue Bay. That was her big Oscars moment.

[Van Lathan]

That's one of the most absurd lines in the mention.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a crazy line. It's a shocking line, but it is actually weirdly like, again, it's a microcosm for the movie. It's weirdly effective. It's like she's making this about her and herself. Sam Lombardo's not gonna do that to me.

[Craig]

Yeah. When people are like, why did Anthony Switchers have a bigger career? Like, just the two minutes is probably just not a great actor. Sandra, also Teresa Russell neither.

[Bill Simmons]

The moment when she's like, they're talking about the dad. Right. Establishing some key, like, original wound origin story trauma there for Kelly. And then Sandra Van Rye is just like, he didn't have to kill himself.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he didn't have to kill him.

[Bill Simmons]

Just another shocking and crazy line in this movie.

[Van Lathan]

This is one of my probably unanswerable questions. We'll get to it later.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I have it as well.

[Craig]

Would you have given her the Jed Nelson Award for somebody who's Just in a completely different movie. Or do you feel like she's in this movie?

[Bill Simmons]

I think she's.

[Craig]

There's another movie going on where she's, like, banging the pool boy and.

[Bill Simmons]

But that is this movie. That's literally this. This movie is all the movies. That's what makes it memorable.

[Craig]

Susie tells the police what happened. Some good nev. Campbell. The second day courtroom scene with Bill Murray.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. The trials.

[Craig]

When he breaks the trials. Great stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

The tabloid frenzy. News reporters outside kind of giving you a sense of the town and how they're all interested in the drama and the V. Voyeuristic gawking.

[Craig]

The Blue Bay Tribunes there.

[Van Lathan]

Don't we just love the sleazy genius lawyer? The lawyer that's not in. Not the. What's the guy's name? Tom Baxter or whatever. Not that guy. But the guy that's just like the sleazy genius, like My Cousin Vinny or whomever. The bruiser from the Rain man or whatever. The guy that's, like, just fucking awesome at being a lawyer. But he's.

[Craig]

He'll break every rule.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The threesome. Have some research on this scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Fantastic.

[Craig]

Now he's probably read on.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you do it all on your work computer or.

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Craig]

Richards and her lawyer had a detailed contract about how much nudity would be filmed, including whether they would have to use a body double. She did not film the scene after drinking a pitcher of margaritas with Neve Campbell, who was nervous. Campbell's contract. Strict no nudity clause, she claimed. She says she enjoyed kissing Richards. It was fun. We just sort of went and did it. Oh, Daddy brought a bottle of wine in my trailer, got drunk first. I'm gonna make out with a girl for the first time in my life. It's so interesting that a lot of times you learn things about yourself and have new experiences when shooting a scene. They're things you wouldn't normally do in your life.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's how I feel about making the Rewatchables. I learned so much about myself every time we talk about a movie together.

[Craig]

You know, Richard said at one point, it's 4 in the morning. I guess this is a different scene, but it's four in the morning. I'm half naked in a swimming pool. I'm making out with Neve Campbell. What am I doing here?

[Bill Simmons]

Having a great time.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Make it smart.

[Bill Simmons]

The motel scene is unbelievable.

[Craig]

So there just weren't a lot of threesomes in movies in the 80s and 90s. I could think of only a couple there Was the movie called Threesome with Josh Charles?

[Van Lathan]

Dumb movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I don't remember Three of Hearts, whether they all went at it together.

[Van Lathan]

They didn't do it, but I like that.

[Craig]

Basic Instinct hinted at it, but I.

[Van Lathan]

Don'T know if it ever happened almost, but, nah. Didn't really get there.

[Craig]

It just was kind of taboo. I think that's why this scene was a big deal. Cause it just didn't happen.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, there was an exploration of sex, but they would stop before it made their characters look a little deviant, which is why movies like Showgirls and Basic Instinct were important, because they kind of leaned into that. And then those movies allowed movies like this to kind of go a little bit further.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's a great moment in the Threesome that definitely wasn't in the script, because there's not much dialogue in the threesome once it actually gets started. But in the middle of it, Matt Dillon just goes, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah. Hold on. Oh, hold on, hold on.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's definitely just Matt Dillon.

[Craig]

Hold on. Is that your flex category?

[Van Lathan]

No, this is my great shot gordo.

[Craig]

Oh. Oh, you brought us. You brought a bro.

[Van Lathan]

This is my great shot gordo, Bro. I peeped that when I was in the theater. Matt Dillon as evil Superman.

[Bill Simmons]

Look, he's got the little curly hair.

[Van Lathan]

And he just goes, yeah, with the evil Superman Elvis. I will always remember that. Like, I'm glad you beat him so.

[Craig]

You can figure out where to put that shit. You're just like me.

[Commercial Narrator]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Get it for him right there. Look at him. He's into it, baby.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God.

[Craig]

He's my butt in.

[Van Lathan]

That's my great job.

[Mallory Rubin]

He spent, like, $30 of ink to bring that out.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a real. Like, we need the knee to be angled exactly here so we can't see the throbbing erection. This is just a very memorable and meaningful scene.

[Van Lathan]

But I. I honestly think he was totally in the moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

100%.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Of course, the sexy part of that is iconic and great. Changed a lot of lives. That's the. I mean, the movie is full of twists. This is, like, a genuinely great twist. That's where the whole movie becomes the movie that it is. He sees the walks in. He sees the footprint. You flash to Kelly, you're like, what's about to happen? Then you realize they're in cahoots. Then Susie emerges, and you realize they're all in cahoots. And so it's just an actual, like, thrilling plot moment coupled with the sex that. The champagne bottle under the. The towel, prepping you later for like the harpoon gun. You know, all of it. That's great.

[Van Lathan]

What she's talking about is rarer than you think. It is like a genuine.

[Craig]

Oh, my God.

[Van Lathan]

Into a sex scene that actually has.

[Bill Simmons]

Pivotal in the movie.

[Van Lathan]

That's pivotal in the movie. That has a real moment of the movie dramatic purpose. Now if you take a movie like Basic Instinct, the sex scene is like used to illustrate the tone of the movie. Like the desperation of the movie. Him going over the deep end. All of that stuff like that. But I would connect this more to her showing her vagine in that.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure. Of course.

[Van Lathan]

Which is actually an important thing to. Bill likes it actually an important thing to know.

[Craig]

If that's like a Louisiana pronunciation.

[Van Lathan]

That's actually an important thing for that character to do. Demonstrating her power. Demonstrating her power of everyone. But this is not just a sort of like, let's throw it into the film to get oohs and ahs. Like, this is an important scene in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. This is like, you know, we have our era Thrones, especially with like sex position. But this is not it. Is that in some way in that, like, you can't understand the movie without it. But this isn't like Littlefinger just talking about other characters and then saying to Ra's like, play with her ass. You know, this is actually.

[Craig]

Just watch that in the sauna again.

[Bill Simmons]

Also left an impression. Yeah, I bet you did. I bet you did.

[Craig]

Wow, the sun is getting hot.

[Bill Simmons]

Steamy masterpiece. Indeed.

[Craig]

Jesus.

[Bill Simmons]

This is great. That's the most rewatchable scene in the movie.

[Craig]

The all female pool scene. Which is more funny for the Kevin Bacon reaction sees just hilarious in this.

[Bill Simmons]

Unbelievable. The cut to him and the wide eyes.

[Van Lathan]

That's another Tommy. How's the peeping moment?

[Bill Simmons]

Talking about, how's the peeping?

[Van Lathan]

How's the peeping?

[Craig]

Then to the Dylan Bacon reveal in the shower.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure.

[Craig]

It's like, oh, these guys are working together, bro.

[Van Lathan]

When I was in the movie theater.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought they were gonna hook up.

[Van Lathan]

I halfway expected them to fucking that when I was in the movie theater, I was like, oh, shit. They in a relationship. And this is the whole thing now.

[Bill Simmons]

We really progressing palpable.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The ending and then the closing credits ending would be the other two. What do you got for most rewatchable mount?

[Bill Simmons]

I think the pool scene is a runner up. I think. But it has to be the Motel 3.

[Craig]

This is one of the most rewatchable.

[Van Lathan]

Scenes in a decade.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. There's just absolutely.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Because it's got the it's got the reveal.

[Bill Simmons]

I would recommend the unrated extended cut of the bull scene though. For anyone who hasn't checked it out. Give it a go.

[Mallory Rubin]

People have checked it out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Evil Superman. Two chicks on him. Look at this son of a bitch. And look at the. Yeah down there.

[Bill Simmons]

It's incredible. Yeah, I like that there's a period. Yeah, you needed punctuation there.

[Craig]

What's the most 1998 thing about this movie?

[Bill Simmons]

I haven't A couple contenders.

[Craig]

Oh, what do you have? I only had two contenders.

[Bill Simmons]

I had two. I think we already talked about the soundtrack. But like Smash Mouth Sugar, A Third Eye Blind is just very of its. Of its time. I would say. The other is teachers fucking their students. Also 1998, when Pacey comes into our lives in Dawson's Creek. This is a big moment for this. 99 is like the Cordelia Wesley. Not a teacher, but still an adult. The school plot and Buffy, et cetera. So just very of its moment to die for.

[Van Lathan]

We were going back over what was the one with. I mean, it's basically Lolita remade the one with Alicia Silverstone and Carrie Elway's in it. What's that joint?

[Craig]

Oh, the Crush.

[Van Lathan]

The Crush. Like we were doing one of these movies like a year.

[Bill Simmons]

This is just a normal part of a plot now.

[Van Lathan]

I could tell you guys why. Cause that type of thing just honestly wasn't as frowned upon as far as huge age gaps. I'm not gonna get into celebrities.

[Craig]

No, the 90s were completely different.

[Van Lathan]

It was a completely different time with that. But they were doing this stuff all the time in movies and TV and stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could also probably just say the cast. I mean, if I told you, if I said guess the year this movie came out and I said Neve Campbell, Matt Dillon, Denise Richards and Kevin Bacon. What year? I mean, you're probably guessing late night.

[Craig]

Yeah, you would go late night.

[Mallory Rubin]

That almost be a fun trivia game.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, for sure.

[Craig]

You know, I had two. I have no ballistics for the Kelly Van Ryan murder. Yeah, they're just solving that now in five minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's another category. But it's yes.

[Craig]

And then the obvious winner is Bacon's video camera.

[Van Lathan]

That big ass camcorder.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Of course that thing was gone five years later. Those things were half the size. But 10 years earlier he would have had like. It would have been like. Like taking up his whole show to shoulder.

[Bill Simmons]

Now he's just using his iPhone.

[Craig]

What stage the best. But yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Stingers. You know, this is the era of the stinger with the MCU and especially the mid credits stinger. You know, you're not getting five stingers in the Guardians of the Galaxy if not for this throuples. This is really a big moment for Ruffles Rubles.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I'm sure we get the lesson. Like threesomes rarely work out. I mean, it's hard enough for one person to keep a secret, let alone three, but. But I don't know that that was the takeaway for most of the impressionable youths watching it. They were like, should I hook up with more than one person at once? I think the class warfare elements of the story certainly are effective and you get little. It is the actually most subtle. We're actually trying to say something, I guess along with maybe the Greek mythology Helios incorporations into the story, but the fact that death on the installment plan is like the book in Susie's hand at the trailer park and she's like, you think? Oh, you do. You think. I'm like just trash like my mom, et cetera, all of that. I think it makes the movie have a little more heft when you revisit it. Short shorts. Ah, great movie for short shorts.

[Craig]

And short shorts are kind of right as it was. It was kind of trying to come back after the Fab Five. There was a late 90s reversion back to the short shorts. And then we went long again.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the sailing shorts on Sam, very memorable. What do you have.

[Van Lathan]

Number one? Just goth.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Van Lathan]

Goth is still around. Yeah, goth's still putting.

[Craig]

Yeah, her look is still a look.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, her look is still a look.

[Van Lathan]

Goth is still around. They still doing their thing. Like one of my little nieces, Goth, she doing her thing. It's like I'm damn. It's like there was goth when I was in school and they still goth now. Goth putting up numbers. Shout out to goth.

[Craig]

But the incredible.

[Van Lathan]

Not just that, but I don't want to make the pod uncomfortable, but South Florida sex scandals have aged the best.

[Craig]

I feel comfortable.

[Van Lathan]

The best.

[Bill Simmons]

Aged the best.

[Van Lathan]

South Florida sex scandals with everything that's in the news now.

[Craig]

How about this? We all know this is Florida's fucking off the rails.

[Van Lathan]

Like Tiger woods, all of that. All of that South Florida, all of that stuff. Those things are around and come back all the time depending on if you.

[Craig]

Read about the Patriots.

[Van Lathan]

Don't leave him out. The owner of the Patriots going down there. You knew I was going there. Don't leave him out. That was South Florida for us. South Florida, sex scandals, the whole nine. Yeah.

[Craig]

Well, if you just read the plot of this movie as an actual news story and you were like, what state do you think this happened in?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you're in Florida. No question. Yeah. And then you would say it was Robert Kraft there.

[Craig]

I would also. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I would also have Wood Stage. The best. Just South Florida as a location for movies.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a. This is. I have not a pivot on this. I have to go. I've got a swerve on this. This is my candidate for weakest link of the film. Because I think they don't. Maybe it's my hottest take. And I didn't even realize it was the hottest take.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. I think that South Florida is used very well. The Blue Bay and the Everglades as atmosphere and. And setting. But not really underutilized for plot.

[Craig]

I like the atmosphere in the setting and I would argue the plot with some of those weird dive bars that they have. Which one of them is called Smiling Jack's Fish Camp. But I like. I just like New Orleans in this area of Florida for movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I had this picking knit. But I just find it unacceptable and difficult to believe that one of these alligators doesn't actually eat anybody at any point. Why does that not happen? That should happen. Then I'd have South Florida as the.

[Van Lathan]

Winner, if that's the thing. So to me, the backdrop kind of makes it. The sexiness of it. The neo noir of.

[Bill Simmons]

The same reason why the humidity and the stickiness.

[Van Lathan]

The same reason why A Time to Kill feels like such a desperate movie. Because it's like, not only is there racism, but it's just fucking hot, man. Can we get some air conditioning in here? That's. Why is everybody so upset? And so that works. But to your point, if maybe somebody being found in the Everglades.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Drown a body in the spot. Then have an alligator. Actually a little more sense.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Shower side dick. I mean, we don't get Affleck's side dick and Gone Girl without what Kevin Bacon does here. We owe it. We owe a debt.

[Craig]

Does pave the way. The poster I have for what stage the best. It's just a great poster.

[Bill Simmons]

It is a fantastic poster.

[Craig]

Really good. Kind of tells you what the movie is. The two women together look great. I really like the actress who played the other police officer. Her name casting Ruben Vega. Never really in anything after this. Very strange IMDb.

[Van Lathan]

She was in like. I think she was in like in the Heights. You see that?

[Craig]

That was where it eventually landed for her. And then, as I mentioned earlier, any movie with a MILF saying things like, I don't know anyone who can handle my boat the way you can.

[Bill Simmons]

Incredible stuff.

[Van Lathan]

So empowered.

[Craig]

We're going to take one more break and then hit the rest of the categories. Great shot, Gordo. Van already submitted his nominee, which I thought was great. I would also throw in a wet post car crash. Denise Richards staring at Dylan with the.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a very good one. SOP and wet in the foyer. White T shirt contest.

[Craig]

After the. Her friend leaves.

[Bill Simmons]

After the.

[Craig]

He's trying to find the thing. He comes back in and she's just. We go out.

[Bill Simmons]

She goes in for the coupon.

[Craig]

We go from feet.

[Bill Simmons]

That's really good. I would. I would pick Kelly emerging from the community pool when Ray could have that in the sheer blue bathing suit.

[Craig]

Dennis, Benny, Hana were for scene stealing.

[Bill Simmons]

Location the Van Ryan home. Right.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, this is incredible.

[Van Lathan]

I know.

[Craig]

If that home is in South Florida, but I thought the house was cool.

[Bill Simmons]

Great use of the balcony, the guest house, the gun cabinet, the boat dock, all of it.

[Van Lathan]

I like. I like the Tropic Motel.

[Bill Simmons]

The motel is also fantastic.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I'm gonna go back here later, but I like the Tropic Motel.

[Craig]

Van, you have a flex category.

[Van Lathan]

My flex category is how would Van Lathan get out of this one?

[Craig]

Okay, okay.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not going for a list. So my girl sees me leaving the Tropic Motel with two young white women.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

Listen, here's the deal. I was at the Tropical Motel. I was with these two young white women, but I did it for us.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. This is also to be clear after the rest of the plot is intact. This is after the trial.

[Van Lathan]

Just. You have to. No, this is just.

[Bill Simmons]

You're the guidance counselor.

[Van Lathan]

This is just me in this situation.

[Bill Simmons]

Just you in the motel.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

I did it for us. And let me tell you why. Like, I'm a podcaster, and a lot of times people say Van's obsessed with race. He puts race in every single conversation. It's black. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I wanted to reach out to the white community. I wanted to reach out. And what better way than to get two young white ladies. Yeah. And talk to them. So I'm like, let's have a conversation.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure.

[Van Lathan]

We're gonna go to the Tropic Motel. Cause I don't wanna be seen out in public. You get shot by tmz. You know, they would like to get me. So I don't wanna be seen.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I'm a well known teacher in the community. Yes.

[Van Lathan]

I wanna go out there and support.

[Bill Simmons]

The teacher of the year.

[Van Lathan]

This is what happens. First of all, those girls do not go to Blue Bay High School. I know you heard that. But that's not where they go.

[Craig]

They're both 25.

[Van Lathan]

Those girls go to Miami. Okay? So we get inside the room and what do they tell me? They're gigantic fans of me, Joel, Tate and the Duke.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

You know, so we in there, you know, we raising the roof. Chaperone is on. We having a whole conversation.

[Bill Simmons]

They just want us to talk about Carson back.

[Van Lathan]

I'm reaching out to them. And then guess what happens. Haley brings up the fourth and five that Mendoza converted to really destroy Miami.

[Bill Simmons]

Ballsy call from Sig.

[Van Lathan]

And then Hannah starts crying because that really hurt them as Miami fans. One of them brings out some champagne to calm the thing down. And then the champagne gets popped. That's probably what you smelling a little bit got on me.

[Craig]

I screamed out. Yeah. But it was just. Cause I had champagne in a while.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Because it was like, wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Champagne.

[Van Lathan]

I was excited and the whole deal. Yeah. Of course, I end up talking to them for a long time and really telling them. And I think Miami has the opportunity.

[Bill Simmons]

How long? How long to push the ball?

[Craig]

Look, but then I had to shower. Cause I had champagne on me.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Then I had to take my clothes off. I had to shower. I got the champagne on me. I think Miami will be back. We end up talking. We really get to a place where I feel like everybody was satisfied.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why was the bell a danger there, though?

[Van Lathan]

She was. She was outside just making sure that everybody knew how to get there.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

I lost my phone. Two things. Number one, first of all, tell your friends not to be watching what I'm doing when I'm leaving the Tropic Motel. If they had a man, maybe they wouldn't. That's the first thing. If they had a man, maybe they wouldn't be worried about what I'm doing. Secondly, if you think that we are going to be able to ignore. Just listen. You never been in this situation. You gotta go into detail. If you think that we're gonna be able to ignore this part of the population and still win in 2028, you're crazy. I think I convinced him to vote Democrats. So I did this for us.

[Craig]

We could still get this state.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, we could still. We have to win Florida. I did this for us. Haley and Hannah are friends of the family now they're coming over. I'm Gonna introduce em to Jomi, the whole nine. I think we're good.

[Craig]

It's amazing stuff.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you.

[Craig]

It's amazing. Just one of the best Butch's Girlfriend award weak link of the film. Now we can talk about how the original screenplay and conflicting information of how close they came to filming it. But these guys were supposed to be gay at the end of the movie.

[Van Lathan]

Is that fact?

[Commercial Narrator]

Yeah.

[Craig]

There's supposed to be a shower sex scene with Kevin Bacon and Matt Dillon. I don't think they would have gone that far because this movie's pretty tame for the sex scenes. Even though there seems to be conflicting.

[Mallory Rubin]

Reports on who was the one who said they didn't want sex.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's pretty clear if you listen to their interviews where Matt Dillon's just like, I. I'm really glad we didn't do. Seems like Kevin really wanted to, though.

[Craig]

I think the conflicting part is, did he shut it down day of.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Craig]

But it was supposed to be in there.

[Van Lathan]

And guys, it just makes more sense if that's what happened.

[Craig]

I always kind of. It's funny because I never researched this movie, but I've obviously seen it over the years. And I always thought they were just insinuating stuff because it was the 90s and they didn't want to cross the line.

[Bill Simmons]

Right, right.

[Craig]

But now it makes more sense.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, like, why is he showering?

[Van Lathan]

Well, if.

[Craig]

Also, who opens the door and the guy's like, howdy, partner.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, if you're not hooking up, you just. You go over to your buddy's house and you have this.

[Van Lathan]

Take a shower.

[Mallory Rubin]

And you just. You're like, oh, we're at the beach.

[Craig]

Take a shower.

[Van Lathan]

Like it's.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's the course light and my dick.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, exactly. It makes much more sense for him to go in and strike up this type of bond with him if they are fucking. Because if not, you don't just. The first thing y' all do as new friends is not a scheme to kill a bunch of people.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the implication not only in the shower scene and the hotel scene, but also then when we get the pickup at the bar. Like he's there to pick him up.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he's like. He's gotta kind of come onto him. And that's the thing that's gonna.

[Bill Simmons]

I have. Cutting this out or not filming it ultimately, as a. What's age the worst. I think the movie.

[Craig]

That's why I've made it the Weekend.

[Bill Simmons]

Makes a lot more sense if this is actually there rather than just implied.

[Craig]

It Makes it a better movie. Well, that leads us to the Mallory. Been a word for. Did this movie need a better sex scene?

[Bill Simmons]

It needed that, I think. Again, just reminding everyone that the pool scene is long. So here's what we get. We get Sandra and Frankie fucking. Holding the high heels in the bed. Rocking in the bed. Okay. We get the famous Motel threesome. Wonderful stuff. Pouring the champagne. Amazing. Underrated. Perfect detail in the threesome, which we didn't talk about yet. Sam pocketing the panties.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Tells you everything you need to know about that character right there. I'm just saving these for later. Incredible touches. Then we get the Kelly Susie Poole hookup with Ray. Filming and watching. That is a minute ish longer in the unrated extended cut. You're getting to see some boobs again. They're kissing for a lot longer. They're taking off each other's tops in the pool. So that is there. And it should be in the whole movie. We need the Sam racing at the end. No question. I think we need that sex scene. But I would also say we need one other thing. And it is somebody masturbating at some point. My specific nomination would be. Sam knows that Detective Gloria Perez is watching him through the window. Because he comes out and he's like, you're watching me, right? And then he brings her in and tries to watch. Exactly. He should have started jerking off. He's already shirtless. Just start cranking it, you know? She's watching Crank Daddy. A little cr. Crank Daddy. Captain Crank. Why does that not happen? I don't understand.

[Craig]

It was the unrealized potential of when that happened. When the other police officer comes in and it seems like she's gonna hook up with Matt Dillon.

[Bill Simmons]

They're leaning into each other on the bed. So we also just could have had them hooking up, but I think that was gonna happen. Jerk off. Very titillating. Draws her to him even more fully before the very flimsy. Like, let me give you this file that will lead you to believe that Kelly definitely wanted to kill Susie. It's all a little.

[Craig]

I thought you were gonna go. Sam goes to Mama Van Ryen to talk to her after everything's settled. And they make up the old fashioned way. I thought they also could have snuck in there.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a tweak with the Sandra Van Ryan plot coming in another category.

[Craig]

What's age? The worst. We mentioned no soundtrack album, even though we had some of the people that Mal mentioned. Smash your mouth, Sugar Ray, Third Eye Blind. Not enough songs for the soundtrack and this was the soundtrack era. I don't know. I don't. I don't know how they fucked this up. Maybe they didn't think it was going to be that big of a movie, but I don't know where the wallflowers were.

[Bill Simmons]

Wallflowers were.

[Craig]

Everclear was sitting right there.

[Van Lathan]

Everclear, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Goo Goo Dolls.

[Craig]

Cracker was like, cracker. What are we doing? Why didn't you call us Lit? We just had so many of them.

[Van Lathan]

We should do a special ringer movies breakout about the death of the soundtrack. Like, when the soundtrack spot Spotify, it was like overlords.

[Craig]

They murdered it. It became the playlist.

[Van Lathan]

But the soundtrack.

[Craig]

Make your own fucking playlist for any.

[Van Lathan]

Movie is so difficult. I remember when Bad Boys 2 dropped. The Bad Boys 2 soundtrack was as big a deal as the movie was itself. And it's just not a thing no more. In no way, shape, or form.

[Bill Simmons]

Sean and Amanda were just talking about this on big Pic on the Oscars mailbag episode, I think. And one of their suggestions for a new category was a needle drop category to kind of like, reward something. Like, what is PTA doing with the way he incorporates movie music into his movies? You know, the Scorsese impact on filmmakers through the era. That would be a way to give people, like, an. Incentivize them to invest a little bit more.

[Craig]

What Sage? The worst. A teacher accused of sleeping with multiple students.

[Bill Simmons]

I would say.

[Craig]

I don't even think he has the chance to clean out his office.

[Bill Simmons]

Every single aspect of.

[Craig]

You're not allowed back to school. Somebody else is putting your shit in.

[Van Lathan]

No, you're done.

[Craig]

Yeah, you're done.

[Van Lathan]

Like, at this particular point now you're.

[Craig]

Guilty until proven innocent. They.

[Van Lathan]

They rolled this out various. They haven't arrested Mr. Lombardo yet. They haven't fired. Like, that's wild.

[Bill Simmons]

They're like, we're gonna talk to everybody.

[Craig]

They're like, yeah, we couldn't find anything on him. The guy doing all kinds of crazy shit.

[Bill Simmons]

Every nitpick, like you guys said earlier, though, it's lampshaded by the fact that they're like, oh, yeah. Well, like, Ray was in on it. Or, you know, you have an explanation eventually for all of the things that completely defy belief.

[Craig]

And then here's the story in the unrated version with the extra.

[Bill Simmons]

This is the biggest. What's aged the worst, I think.

[Craig]

Yeah. Basically, the production company, they went rogue. They filmed all this extra stuff for the movie that he cut out to make it the right version of the movie. And he said, I hated it. Gone way past telling the story. We showed as much as we needed to do in the movie. It's exploitative, it's sleazy. I know that sounds strange talking about this movie, but it destroys the forward motion storytelling.

[Van Lathan]

On and on.

[Craig]

He couldn't believe they did it.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting. That's not. I thought you were gonna say something else. That's a weird.

[Van Lathan]

I don't even know what you guys talking about. He's talking about the end credits scene.

[Craig]

No, the director's cut with the extra footage. He was like, what the fuck?

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, I guess, yeah, the director.

[Craig]

Should be able to greenlight that at least.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I mean, when pouring champagne on tits in a dirty motel room elsewhere in the movie is like seeing boobs once more in a pool.

[Van Lathan]

It's like at that point, remember the reason why I talked about it before? They're selling DVDs. They're trying to make you go buy the DVD. So for him, it's a little rich for him to kind of get involved. The movie wasn't like a gigantic box office hit. So they're gonna do whatever they had to do to make up for make.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure they're talking about it on years later. I.

[Craig]

They have a deleted where they zoom in on Bacon's.

[Van Lathan]

Is that true?

[Bill Simmons]

No, that's just the. That's the super special director's cut we're working on.

[Craig]

Sean, as that Blu ray.

[Van Lathan]

That's the sauna cut.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Sonic, I thought you were going to talk about one of the other things in the extended cut. This is a. What's aged the worst to me, which is if you watch the extended cuts should be like, oh, there's an extra minute in a scene you saw. Or a little bit of this, a little bit of that. A scene that you understand why it was cut. Timing, pacing, plot, whatever. There is a scene in the extended cut that radically changes the movie, which is learning that Susie is Sandra Van Ryan's half sister and Kelly's aunt. So first of all, there's an incest element that's introduced, but it's also like the personal motivation of that because I.

[Craig]

Didn'T know if I believe that.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think this. I watched it today. It's on the dvd.

[Craig]

Oh, so it actually exists.

[Bill Simmons]

It's real. Yeah. And like. So the fact that like you can have a. If you watch one version of it, your understanding of who the character is and why they're doing what they're doing is actually different from the people who watch a different Version of the movie. That's bad. That's not what extended cuts should do.

[Van Lathan]

What's Asia? Worst for me is just the erotic thriller, like, after Unfaithful, which was great movie, fucking fantastic. Okay. Might be Unfaithful. Might have been. Like. Was that 2001? 2003. Like 2002.

[Craig]

We did it like five years ago.

[Van Lathan]

Unfaithful might be the.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, 2002.

[Van Lathan]

Along with fatal Attraction, the prestigious, like, best version. Perfection.

[Craig]

Killer.

[Van Lathan]

And then. What is she gonna do? She can't do anything. She can't. She can't say anything. You gotta live with.

[Craig]

She made that bed.

[Van Lathan]

She made that bed. Poor Olivier Martinez after that, the Hollywood guy.

[Craig]

This guy had some books.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I love that. Not to get into another movie, but. Hey. Yeah, I'm fucking your wife. Have some water. Come in. Let's talk about it. You've been cucked, like, completely. And then he ends up getting hit with the snow globe.

[Craig]

Arguably deserved to die.

[Van Lathan]

Who? Olivier Martinez.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

See Victory lapping a little bit.

[Van Lathan]

Let's come in.

[Craig]

I'm fucking your wife.

[Van Lathan]

The guy, he was.

[Craig]

Can I get some water?

[Van Lathan]

He was having a panic attack, right?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

But anyway, so. But like, after that, they kind of stay away from it a little bit. I mean, there have been some.

[Craig]

I think Internet porn ruined it. Ruined it.

[Van Lathan]

It's too hard ruin the erotic thriller.

[Craig]

I just think.

[Bill Simmons]

What else is Internet porn ruined for you?

[Craig]

It's just too easy to get nudity and sex.

[Van Lathan]

It's been very important for me.

[Craig]

Nudity and sex is too easy to get. And the erotic thriller faded away at an appropriate time.

[Van Lathan]

Is such a delicious plot device.

[Craig]

You know what? The other thing that I think might have happened, we kind of did every version of these where, like, how many can you. How many plots can you have? It's like how they talk about music. Like there's only so many rock and roll chords you can play.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

How many different ways can you have, like, somebody's wife set somebody up?

[Bill Simmons]

But are you going to the erotic thriller for the plot? You're going for the sensibility. You're going for the essence.

[Craig]

Listen, I'm with you guys. I wish there were more erotic thrillers. I think we're just bad at them, though. There are too many of them. That was 1981.

[Van Lathan]

Does Baby Girl count as an erotic thriller? No. No.

[Mallory Rubin]

What about Euphoria?

[Van Lathan]

Could be.

[Bill Simmons]

Isn't Euphoria an erotic element? Baby Girl has some elements.

[Craig]

It's a TV show.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, but you just get eight episodes.

[Craig]

Erotic thriller is like what they kind of tried to do with the house. Right.

[Van Lathan]

Kind of tried to make it with the housemaid, I guess.

[Craig]

But I don't think people are smart enough now when they do these to understand the black comedy fun part also. It's like you're basically serving two masters at the same time. And you have to figure out how do I do both, how do I make the erotic thriller. But it also has to be fun, right?

[Bill Simmons]

It's a creative threesome, would you say? A thruppo.

[Craig]

I need to be able to make fun of what I'm watching in some scenes. Like, you gotta push the envelope. I think it's hard.

[Van Lathan]

Craig, doesn't your generation also have like an odd relationship to sex?

[Mallory Rubin]

To be honest, I think that's a generation below me, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, you think it's below? Yeah, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that's people who are like 20 years old right now.

[Craig]

The Gooners.

[Van Lathan]

The Gooners. The Gooners.

[Craig]

The Gooners. The Harper's Magazine, Atlanta. One of those.

[Mallory Rubin]

When they were like 8 years old, they had an iPhone and could look up anything they wanted. I didn't really have that until like high school. And even then it was like slow going. It was a big deal when somebody had like an ipod touch that had the Internet in high school and somebody could like look up whoever, a photo of an actress topless or something. That was still pretty innocent compared to what like a 9 year old can do right now.

[Van Lathan]

When I say weird relationship, relationship with sex, I'm more so describing that like the sex scene itself.

[Bill Simmons]

We litigated that he was asking less about your personal search history and what.

[Van Lathan]

Well say like a lot of times.

[Craig]

Like, you're not on trial, correct?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's like still when I'm talking to like, you know. Cause I'm around a lot of younger people at the ringer. We will talk about whether or not sex scenes should be in movies. Like I'll have these conversations with the midnight boys and they'll be like, why would there be a sex scene in a movie? I'd be like, what are you guys talking about? Like, we watch a movie where a guy jumps into the sun. The sex scene people. Fuck.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why don't they think sex scenes should be in movies? I don't agree with that.

[Van Lathan]

There's like a lot of people that.

[Bill Simmons]

Think that is a generational thing. For sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's a lot of people that is gratuitous or unnecessary.

[Van Lathan]

That is gratuitous. Unnecessary. Some people say they don't want to be in a movie. Theater watching people have sex on camera as a communal experience. They feel weird about that. They feel bashful or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Great. I invite you to watch it at home under a fleece blanket, doing whatever you want with your hands.

[Van Lathan]

So I just think that kind of attitude a little bit kills because the erotic thriller, the sex is one of the driving forces of the plot.

[Craig]

I have a hard time understanding it. Cause I'm from the scramble cable channel generation where it's like, I think I just saw a nipple.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Random boobs in Trading Places. Yeah.

[Craig]

So you know the Ruffalo hand and rubneck Partridge overacting word clearly goes to Kevin Bacon flipping out in the police station and going, yeah, you want to say that to my face?

[Bill Simmons]

That's a good moment. Yeah. The security guard is like, what's happening? That's where I had Theresa Randall.

[Van Lathan]

I had Theresa Randall.

[Craig]

Easy. Well, she's just the bad actor.

[Van Lathan]

But I had, like. My daughter does not get raped.

[Bill Simmons]

Nearest wall.

[Van Lathan]

There's balls to the nearest wall.

[Craig]

Flex category for Mal.

[Bill Simmons]

So I was gonna do the most gifable moment, but we. Which is the cut to Ray's face as he's hiding and filming Kelly and Susie kissing. The wide eyes and then the glance down. But we've already talked about that so much. I'll go with an alt. I'll do the Sarah Khanna award for would modern technology ruined this movie. You already mentioned the ballistics. There is like a mention of, you know, the blood evidence and the. The blood match and the. The DNA, and it'll take a couple weeks. So accounted for. But obviously the CSI tech of the day radically changes what the plot could be. But I'm talking more like text messages. They would have been screwed scams. Cell phone tower pings, the nudes in the discovery process. All Internet search history. The plot falls apart in two seconds.

[Craig]

This movie can't happen.

[Bill Simmons]

It doesn't work.

[Mallory Rubin]

They would have had to stick strictly to Snapchat. I don't know if they could have done it.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, weird. There's their cell phones all pinged at the motel in the same room at the same moment. Odd. Like it's done from the jump.

[Craig]

Trying to erase their text.

[Van Lathan]

I love my interrogation videos where they're sitting down talking to someone, and they go, I wasn't there. And then the cops go, dude, yeah. You had your cell phone with you. So we got you legitimately five feet away from. It happened. I was never there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, exactly.

[Van Lathan]

And then they go, here's how cell phone towers work.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

It sends a Signal here. We send the signal back and then just like. Like the life drains from the suspect's face.

[Bill Simmons]

This modern technology turns this movie into the end of episode one of adolescence. Yeah, basically it's just. Oh, Susie, we have in your recent Google history how to pull out my own tooth.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's done. Destroyed all these cases except for the Karen Reed case, which somehow took two years to try to figure out and is now going to.

[Van Lathan]

Another truth doesn't always work.

[Craig]

The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest take award. Do you have one?

[Van Lathan]

Van, I do not. The movie was so right in front of your face. I had trouble coming up with a hot take. I know Mallory didn't.

[Bill Simmons]

They should have killed Sandra Van Ryjan. That's just the better scheme. Just kill her and get the money. That way it is stated multiple times that you unlock the trust after she dies. Just kill her. Why do we need this convoluted? There are all of these secret duos inside of the trio, inside of the quartet. Kill her, take the money and turn on each other.

[Van Lathan]

Then why take 8 million when I bet she's worth like 50? I bet it's like 60. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Real estate heiress. Should have just killed her. Knock her off the balcony.

[Craig]

My take might be too hot.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's have it. I mean, mere weeks ago and this big judge sat in this chair and said they should have just used the cello strings for murder. So I think you're safe.

[Van Lathan]

And by the way, it doesn't get hotter than Smells Like Teen Spirit isn't a good record. So just go for it.

[Bill Simmons]

Rob.

[Van Lathan]

What the fuck you got going on?

[Bill Simmons]

Wild.

[Craig]

Hey, Nev Campbell. Take your no nudity clause and find another movie.

[Bill Simmons]

You actually. Okay.

[Craig]

Find another movie.

[Van Lathan]

Guess what?

[Craig]

You're invited to the barbecue. We're serving ribs and meat. And if you're a vegetarian, go find another party.

[Van Lathan]

I'll win. You know what I mean?

[Craig]

Know what you signed up for? I told you it was hot.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not with it. I'm with it. Triple horn got busy. Like we. We all. We talk about busy instinct.

[Craig]

Sharon Stone is over here to play basketball. Just play pickup.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Again, that was the hottest take.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure was.

[Craig]

I have a backup hottest take. If we have to eat that one out.

[Van Lathan]

You survived it. I don't know. I like. I. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I fuck with you.

[Craig]

Thank you. The Van Lathan Award for. Did this movie need more black people?

[Van Lathan]

Hell no. Perfect amount. This is the one. Perfect amount.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's a couple black people in this movie.

[Van Lathan]

A couple black people in There just.

[Mallory Rubin]

Cop the guy at the school staying.

[Van Lathan]

Out of all of these motherfuckers business. A couple people like they like the principal in school. Damn, Sam. Peace, bro. We really fucked with you. Take your teacher of the Year trophy. Get the fuck outta here, man.

[Craig]

Perfect amount casting. What ifs.

[Bill Simmons]

There's some good ones for this movie.

[Van Lathan]

The one. The Titanic one. I was shocked.

[Bill Simmons]

Downey Rd.

[Craig]

I didn't know the Downey ones. So Robert Downey Jr. Was supposed to be Sam and could not get insured.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think?

[Craig]

And he was having drug issues and they just couldn't pull it off.

[Bill Simmons]

Is he. Is he great as Sam Lombardo?

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think he can pull off seeming like a clean teacher at the beginning. I think you would know he's dirty immediately.

[Van Lathan]

I think his. His reputation would have preceded him in that regard. And I also think that while Downey. I think Sam Lombardo has to be a little bit more dashing than what Robert Downey is.

[Bill Simmons]

He's handsome.

[Van Lathan]

He is handsome. He is handsome. And especially the young version of him.

[Bill Simmons]

At that point that we had.

[Craig]

I almost thought he would have made more sense in the Bacon part.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, that's. Cause he almost played that guy in US Marshals.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then revealed to be embroiled in the scheme.

[Craig]

I gotta say, I really like Matt Dillon in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Downey's so great that he. I kind of feel like he could do anything well, so I certainly think he could have done this well. He has the, like, easy charm that Sam Lombardo needs to suck you in. And then you realize what's really afoot. No, he would have been great.

[Van Lathan]

But he's also. Just for the film. He's such an insanely incredible actor.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

That you might have.

[Craig]

It's too much firepower.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. You might have to worry about him lapping some people in some of these.

[Bill Simmons]

That's true. Yeah.

[Craig]

And that's not.

[Van Lathan]

That's not on Kevin Bacon. Cause Kevin Bacon's a fucking great actor.

[Craig]

Has it been in a movie like this?

[Bill Simmons]

Downey.

[Van Lathan]

What was the indie that he did with two girls and a guy? Remember that one? That was him. Heather Graham and I cannot remember who else was in that joint.

[Craig]

We also have the Natasha Leone auditioning for Susie and not getting it. And then Tara Reid auditioning for Kelly Van Ryan and not getting it.

[Bill Simmons]

Tara Reid would have been honestly a great Kelly. I think.

[Craig]

Trying to think same year as American.

[Bill Simmons]

Pie one year before. American pie is 99. Right. I think.

[Craig]

Yeah. I don't know. I think Denise Richards is perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I mean yeah, of course for.

[Craig]

This because Terry Reid was almost too young. Part of the problem with this is if you have. You almost needed the older actors playing high school students because it's basically softcore porn.

[Van Lathan]

Natasha Griffin Wagner was the other lady. Yeah, you probably. I think that Denise Richards had that little twinkle in her eye. You know what I'm saying?

[Craig]

Best that guy award. I'm going to obey Craig's rule that we're going too stealth with the that guy's.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, interesting.

[Craig]

So we'll just do Robert Wagner even though he's Robert Wagner. Well, for Craig's generation, he's number two from Austin Powers.

[Bill Simmons]

What about Jeff Perry?

[Van Lathan]

The Jeff Perry the guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the D.A.

[Commercial Narrator]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Bryce Ontario.

[Craig]

I tried Craig.

[Bill Simmons]

I tried to serve the under 30 Nash Bridges scandal. Oh, that guy or the fucking Corey Pentagast. Jimmy.

[Van Lathan]

The guy who is Nev Campbell's like surrogate uncle or whatever that gets. The guy's with a ton of shit. Walter at the end of it isn't that guy and everything. He's been a lot of shit. Robert Wagner though.

[Craig]

I feel like the mom of Neve Campbell in this movie is like that. I don't even know what her name.

[Bill Simmons]

Is but she's again as the extended cocktail us. Not actually her mom, not her grandma. Not related to her at all.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's a second Charlie Sheen connection to this movie. Jennifer Taylor, who plays the the first girlfriend of Matt Dylan has a long run in Two and a Half Men as Charlie Sheen's girlfriend.

[Van Lathan]

Interesting.

[Craig]

Oh Deon Waiters award just goes to Bill Murray. We don't need to negotiate.

[Bill Simmons]

After him.

[Craig]

Is we should keep track of. Is that the best Dan Waiters we're going to have in 26 fed some pretty good W. That's just. That was so crazy. So we're casting Couch Director City. I have a really good one for this. But did you have one?

[Bill Simmons]

Are you going with director?

[Craig]

No. There's an actor who missed who would have been perfect for this movie but was not old enough yet to be in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Who for which role? Sam. For the Sam role.

[Craig]

Neve Campbell's role.

[Bill Simmons]

Not old enough to be in the movie.

[Craig]

This person five years later is perfect.

[Van Lathan]

Give me a hint.

[Craig]

Kind of played this part in a different movie in the 0203 range version of it.

[Van Lathan]

Kind of played this part.

[Craig]

Scarlett Johansson.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, in Nev Campbell's role.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

She is way too attractive.

[Craig]

Bill, did you ever see the Perfect Score with Darius Miles?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I've seen The Perfect Score with Darius Miles.

[Craig]

She basically plays this character in the Perfect Score. She strips down, she's a little gothy. And I think she could have done it.

[Bill Simmons]

That's it.

[Craig]

And I think she would have even maybe improvised some stuff.

[Van Lathan]

But the problem is then it's gonna become a tit off. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And why is that a problem?

[Van Lathan]

It's not a problem, but it's like, now you're putting two of the Titanics against each other.

[Craig]

Scarlett's like, no nudity class. Fuck that whip sat over her shoulder.

[Van Lathan]

Interesting.

[Craig]

But I thought. I think that would have been that kind of energy. Maybe if you're trying to really jazz this movie up with the Susie character, you move in that range, Craig, you have a flex category.

[Mallory Rubin]

Devil Wears Prada Award. Is this movie actually perfect for what it tried to do? I would argue 100%, yes. You know the meme. Sometimes I forget this is the whole point.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's kind of going around.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

When you watch this movie, you're like, you know what? Sometimes I forget that this is all it's supposed to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Great one great one.

[Van Lathan]

It's great.

[Craig]

Just try to run the ball twice, use a little play action and keep moving the chains. Don't overthink it. Try to get into third and fourth, third and three. Half asserting research. There's apparently a dead body that halted filming. That sounded really fun. They had to halt production for a second to get the dead body out of the swamp. Trump.

[Bill Simmons]

Incredible.

[Craig]

And then. So Kevin Bacon, he also. We talked about his no nudity clause. How common are these no nudity clauses? Are they just standard when you're an actor?

[Van Lathan]

Why would you need one, though, if you're Kevin Bacon? It's an interesting question. If you're Kevin Bacon, you say, I'm not getting naked.

[Craig]

Does it protect the actor from. I didn't realize this was getting flushed.

[Bill Simmons]

Something developing on set, like a. You feeling like you need to make a decision in real time.

[Craig]

I feel like I'd read a 5,000 word feature on the history of no nudity clauses. Why they had to come up with this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, well, I would have been. For some people, it's like boilerplate. Part of their, like, contract language, their base agreement. And then maybe for some people, it's like script specific erotic thriller. I'm putting a note.

[Craig]

You know, Sharon Stone and the Specialist. I remember the sex scene had to be like storyboarded out for what she would do and wouldn't do after Basic Instinct. So I get it. But it's just Interesting that he would have one. I don't really understand it. McNaughton's editor with the dick shot, who was a female, said, it's not fair. You guys, I've seen after seeing him topless babes, this one's for us. But then they had to go ask Bacon, who claimed he was fine with that. I have some thoughts. I'm saving it for another category.

[Bill Simmons]

The best part of that is that he was like, how did I look? Look.

[Van Lathan]

Apparently you have to ask that.

[Craig]

The film was retitled in France, Italy and Belgium.

[Bill Simmons]

Sex crimes.

[Craig]

Sex Crimes.

[Van Lathan]

Not great.

[Craig]

Because the original title didn't work. Film's final scene. Mallory mentioned this earlier. When Bill Murray shows up, it's because Peter Goober, legendary producer. The test screening. Everybody loved Neve Campbell and Bill Murray.

[Bill Simmons]

Ken Val did.

[Craig]

He was like, we should work them into the ending. Because they felt like the ending was missing one thing. So they worked it into the ending.

[Bill Simmons]

That was that it was missing one thing. Because they didn't let Rhae and Sam fuck like they should have.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

Because if that makes the movie, I feel like if they do that, the movie's like, an actual concept, by the.

[Craig]

Way, all he has to do is get in the shower and we're good. It's not like we need, like, get in the shower.

[Van Lathan]

You don't want to see it.

[Craig]

No, we didn't need the three minutes in the shower. Just saying, let's just get in the shower. And we're like, okay, okay.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Now I know what's going on.

[Van Lathan]

Get in the shower and then show them. Just, like, dropping the towel. And then you cut.

[Craig]

That's what I would have said to Matt Dylan.

[Bill Simmons]

A hand going into the.

[Craig]

If Matt Dylan's like, I'm not doing this. Be like, how about. How about plan B? You get in the shower.

[Bill Simmons]

My cheek would be great. Yeah. Where are you guys on shower sex in actual pool? Sex. Water sex of any sort.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I enjoy. I think for the first. Because I'mma ask. I'mma ask you guys a sex question later too, man. I enjoy bringing hr. Bill, relax.

[Bill Simmons]

You asked both of us to be on the same podcast, so this is your fault.

[Van Lathan]

I think I enjoy for about the first nine minutes. And then you move out of the area of the.

[Bill Simmons]

For the first nine minutes. Just an incredible flex from him right there.

[Craig]

Notice how he didn't say 10. Felt like 10 was too aggressive.

[Van Lathan]

For the first nine minutes. I enjoy. Then you have to. You have to.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's only the first nine minutes.

[Van Lathan]

There are more Minutes Sting over here, baby. You guys have heard the lore.

[Craig]

We're not even at Apex Mountain yet. Apex mountain. Denise Richards. 100% yes.

[Van Lathan]

Without a doubt, without question.

[Craig]

Neve Campbell. Probably yes too. Party five still on. Coming off Scream. It's either Scream or this Scream.

[Van Lathan]

She's still doing that role today.

[Bill Simmons]

That's true.

[Craig]

So you would say 96 scream. Because I would argue this actually combined with Scream.

[Bill Simmons]

This is right with Scream too.

[Craig]

But it didn't really lead to an awesome thing. So maybe not threesome scenes in a movie.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, God.

[Craig]

I don't know if this was the best ever, but it was certainly the.

[Van Lathan]

The most ballyhooed.

[Craig]

It was the Dr. J and the dunk contest. It's like, whoa, he dunked from the foul line. The hell just happened?

[Van Lathan]

I didn't even know a human could do that.

[Craig]

Did I just see that correctly? Kevin Bacon. No. Matt Dillon. Yes. Cause of this. And there's something about Mary. I think this was.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, for sure.

[Craig]

He's got it all going. Blue Bay, Florida. I'm going to say yes because this isn't a real place.

[Bill Simmons]

Great name for a town.

[Craig]

Bill Murray. No way.

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Craig]

High school sailing teams, maybe.

[Van Lathan]

Maybe.

[Craig]

Can't remember that in another movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting.

[Craig]

Champagne being used where it seems like a gun, but then it turns out to be champagne to kick off a threesome. Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Just a wonderful creative choice.

[Craig]

Cruz or Hanks?

[Van Lathan]

Cruz and Hanks.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that was my answer too. Cruz is Sam.

[Craig]

You can't. We're not.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz is Sam Lombardo.

[Mallory Rubin]

Who is Matt Dillon.

[Van Lathan]

Matt Dillon is Tom Cruise. Tom Hanks has no place in this movie. Tom Cruise except opposite Tom Hanks. Opposite Tom Cruise. If they're both.

[Craig]

Hold up the photo again.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, exactly.

[Craig]

Trying to picture Cruise here.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Really, really trying.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz could be a great Sam Lombardo. I think this is a year before Eyes Wide Shut.

[Craig]

I'm trying to think where he'd run though in this movie. Probably have to add that maybe he's.

[Bill Simmons]

Jogging to or from a dollar he's get on a boat.

[Craig]

Maybe. Maybe he's getting the car scene when the car pushes Matt Dillon's car off. Maybe he's jogging and the car pushes him off the road as a jogger sprinting Dylan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sam didn't factor that into the equation.

[Bill Simmons]

One of the police. I had this as a picking knit. It's like not. It's a really unreasonable part of their plot. Like wait, someone could kill me actually because of this also. That's where an all or could have eaten someone could have Eaten Frankie. Yeah, yeah. Missed opportunity.

[Craig]

Scorsese or Spielberg? This is Scorsese. Best hang, worst hang. Bill Murray. Best hang, Worst hang. Alligator guy.

[Van Lathan]

The guy putting teeth that he found in his mouth? Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Walter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

Picking nits.

[Bill Simmons]

We've got a few.

[Van Lathan]

I got. I got one big one.

[Craig]

What's your big one?

[Van Lathan]

Do y' all stop fucking to answer.

[Craig]

The phone with Sandra Van Ryan?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Like just. I see this in every movie, right to where the phone is ringing, and then somebody goes, oh, stop it. Scarlett Johansson. I gotta get that. What the fuck are you talking about?

[Craig]

So in your first nine minutes, you're not answering the phone.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not answering the phone, period.

[Craig]

Nine minute vanity.

[Van Lathan]

You know what I'm saying? In the second, I'm like, I'm not answering the phone, period. Just as a. Do y' all stop having sex? Audience think about this. You answer the phone, do you stop having sex?

[Craig]

Well, so if it's three in the morning, you might think something terrible happened would be the only. But it wasn't three in the morning.

[Mallory Rubin]

If you have children in high school, it could be.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Cause she's mother of the year, this one. Super worried about her kid and engaged with her kid's life.

[Van Lathan]

The only thing that I could think.

[Craig]

Was, no, it's stupid, is that this.

[Van Lathan]

Is an era where this person called you doesn't exist. The missed call. I mean, they're answering machines, but like.

[Craig]

Oh, you wouldn't even know what the call was.

[Van Lathan]

You wouldn't even know what the call was.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's also the beeper era.

[Van Lathan]

It's also the beeper era.

[Bill Simmons]

So you could let the call go because if it was important, someone would beep you.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, offshoot question real quick.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Who would have to be calling you.

[Bill Simmons]

For you to answer?

[Van Lathan]

For you to answer. But how would you know Is Daniel X?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you could. You could hear it on your. On your answering machine. This is the answering machine era. So you let it go.

[Craig]

Hold on. It's Eck.

[Bill Simmons]

You let it go to the answering machine. And it's like, bill, it's Daniel. So you hear it in the room, then you have to stop and pick up. Right.

[Craig]

We're announcing earnings tomorrow.

[Bill Simmons]

We gotta get this right now. You wouldn't know unless you stop to look at your phone. It's going right to voicemail. You're not going to hear it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I do have one personal story where this did happen.

[Van Lathan]

Got to hear it.

[Craig]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm debating whether to share it. This is a true story. This is true. A certain young man who I will. He will remain nameless. I'll protect his identity. We were losing our virginity to each other. Holy hell. And the phone rang and we were at his house and we knew that his parents were coming home. So the phone rang and it was like. Like, better answer it just in case. They're like, I'm downstairs with the groceries. But it was a real mood killer. Gotta say.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

Real mood killer you got.

[Van Lathan]

But that. You gotta pick that call up.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you had to pick the call up. You had to. It was like, parents are out. We gotta. You know, we gotta.

[Craig]

So when we do the movie, like, first nine minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

First nine minutes make it count.

[Craig]

But when they do, like the Freddie Mercury Queen movie, like the biopic, when it's about Mao, that's like in the first 10 minutes.

[Van Lathan]

First 10 minutes.

[Craig]

The losing the virginity gone wrong scene.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. That's the first scene of the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe he'll listen to this pod and he'll reach out. Maybe his dad will listen to this pod and reach out.

[Craig]

He reaches out. From unfinishedbusiness gmail.com nitpicks. Does Kelly like her mom? Not like her mom. Rely on her mom. What's going on here?

[Van Lathan]

What are you talking about?

[Craig]

She's confiding in her.

[Bill Simmons]

She's using her.

[Mallory Rubin]

She's.

[Bill Simmons]

She's not confiding her. She's lying in her. She's using her as a.

[Craig]

But then, okay.

[Bill Simmons]

An aspect of the scheme, middle part.

[Craig]

Of the film circuit back to an earlier mount point. Just kill her and kill her then.

[Bill Simmons]

Exactly. Just kill her and take the money. Clearly she blames her for the father's death. That seems apparent, right?

[Van Lathan]

I think that there's a version. Well, we'll talk about it later. But yeah, she hates the mom for sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

All right, then she should have killed her.

[Bill Simmons]

She is jealous. Cause of the relationship between sons and dad.

[Craig]

Easy murder. There's just not enough time for the fake Susie death scene. When we see the closing credits after where Denise Richards goes to get something from the car in that time, they have to pull out two of her teeth.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. And he has to, like, not be able to do it effectively.

[Craig]

Then kill her. The fake bludgeoning, which leads to my biggest nitpick. She lost two teeth. Then in the end of the movie, full set of teeth.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, they've got eight and a half million dollars, so she can probably afford.

[Craig]

They don't have the money yet, though.

[Bill Simmons]

Some dental work.

[Craig]

They don't have the money yet. Well, and where Is she getting dental work? She's supposed to be dead.

[Bill Simmons]

Hold on.

[Craig]

Can I have your insurance? No, you can't.

[Van Lathan]

Where were they? Weren't they in an island though?

[Bill Simmons]

They're in the Caribbean.

[Van Lathan]

They're in the Caribbean already?

[Bill Simmons]

This is.

[Craig]

Should she have been missing to see.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, wait a second. I know what this is.

[Craig]

What?

[Van Lathan]

You don't think that Caribbean nations have the expertise in dentistry to be able to fix her like that.

[Craig]

It just internalized. But how many weeks?

[Van Lathan]

How many weeks I'm back already. I'm doing my job for the community. Anguilla, Barbados, all of these places, they got dentists too.

[Craig]

Bill, it's two weeks.

[Van Lathan]

Check your privilege.

[Craig]

It's two weeks.

[Bill Simmons]

Weeks.

[Craig]

She's in hiding. Do you think she's like, you know, I know I'm in hiding, but this. These two missing teeth are driving me crazy.

[Van Lathan]

I gotta go.

[Craig]

I gotta risk it all.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, she did it right after or right before getting the wig. But on your.

[Craig]

So you're not fixing your teeth until like a year later. I'm sorry.

[Van Lathan]

You're waiting around.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

With like one tooth missing out your.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's her life of luxury. This is yacht life.

[Craig]

She doesn't have the money yet. She doesn't get the money until the end.

[Bill Simmons]

No, wait, hold on. On the money front, this is one of my picking it. So it's related to your point. We gotta. We gotta dive into the money thing. The detectives look at the SunTrust bank account and we see. And this is alluded to in the. In the dialogue elsewhere. $327,000 to Playa Properties, $160,000 to the yacht brokers to get the ship. So Sam is maybe okay. Like if that's all traceable, they would be able to find them. Is the point now Sam elsewhere. He's like. When he's still at the motel. I'm living life like a rich guy. I'm doing what rich guys are supposed to do. Maybe he doesn' found but Ray goes and meets him there.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Susie is there in hiding with him when she's supposed to be dead and is now on the boat.

[Craig]

Well, this is the other nitpick. Is she on the boat?

[Van Lathan]

How'd she get on the boat? Yeah, that's the biggest.

[Craig]

And where is she staying this whole time?

[Bill Simmons]

Because he did have the money and he was spending it.

[Craig]

He tells the money. He tell.

[Van Lathan]

Ray tells people though. Ray tells he has all the money. He says I have to spend. I'm doing what rich guys do. I'm going around spending Money. I think the money that she gets in the end of. Of the movie is the way they were able to take the money that was for Ray and transfer it to her. And transfer it to her.

[Craig]

But he's already dead. So how did she get down there? Where did she stay? How'd she get on the money?

[Bill Simmons]

Because there.

[Craig]

How'd she fix her teeth?

[Van Lathan]

So I want you to remember, she's running him. So it's very likely that the offshore account that he fed her son. Yeah, that she is.

[Bill Simmons]

That's their shared slusher. Fix it.

[Craig]

All right.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And where do you think they went? Like Barbados or somewhere?

[Bill Simmons]

They're somewhere in the Caribbean.

[Van Lathan]

Right. Somewhere in the Caribbean.

[Craig]

Not easy to get to.

[Van Lathan]

What's the right.

[Craig]

Guess what you need to get there. IDs.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, guess what. They're all expert sailors, so.

[Van Lathan]

Expert sailors. They actually probably. They could have sailed there. Yeah, they're in Florida.

[Craig]

I don't think she's getting her teeth fixed. I think she comes out, she looks like playoff hockey now.

[Van Lathan]

I tell you what.

[Craig]

Like she looks like. I don't even know, like Marc Messier.

[Van Lathan]

If they'd have done that, that would have been a scary scene. The better version of the movie chose her. And when she smiles, she's got two teeth missing. And it's very frightening.

[Craig]

The other one is Ry wasn't supposed to kill Kelly. That's what Matt Dillon said.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Just supposed to frame her.

[Craig]

Then he did and then Sam said he screwed up the plan. But what was the plan if they weren't going to. For which plan, Ryan?

[Bill Simmons]

They all have different plans.

[Craig]

But if they weren't supposed to kill Kelly Van Ryle, were they pinning the murders on because she would have whistled.

[Bill Simmons]

That's my biggest one as well. Yeah. Because like I think you have to assume even though Sam tells Rhae you were just supposed to frame her, Susie would have killed her. Because the thing we learn is no loose ends. Right? No loose ends. So they're not allowing Kelly to just go to jail for Susie's murder and rat them out at any point.

[Van Lathan]

No way Kelly's like Kelly's testimony when she is brought in alive by Ray is going to be so damning. I've been having sex with him for this amount of time.

[Craig]

This is how raps in the 10th grade.

[Van Lathan]

Like, yeah, it's to leave her alive makes absolutely zero sense. There's no way it all falls apart.

[Craig]

So he's probably lying.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Any other nitpicks?

[Bill Simmons]

Shouldn't he have picked Kelly Well, I think that gets back to the like, this is actually if you're trying to do like lit 101 kind of a story about class. So it like makes sense that the two people who always felt like they were like, like your trash from other members of Blue Bay would actually be aligned with each other. And then she turns on Sam.

[Van Lathan]

That's fair.

[Mallory Rubin]

But the whole thing was that Sam wanted money and he was always trying to associate with. Yeah, but he could have gotten even more.

[Commercial Narrator]

He could have gotten.

[Bill Simmons]

That is another unanswerable question is again, just in the. Or like part of the why not kill Sandra says kill her, take her money and then marry Kelly.

[Mallory Rubin]

He could have married Kelly.

[Van Lathan]

But the thing is that none of this is Sam's idea.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

Sam is being activated by Susan.

[Craig]

So Sam is photosynthesis.

[Van Lathan]

That word was that patsy. Sam is a patsy in the whole deal. So Sam actually has no motivation. His number one motivation in all of this from this post credit scene, is self preservation. Yes, because she has pictures of him.

[Bill Simmons]

Fucking Kelly and doing coke with Kelly.

[Van Lathan]

That would have ended his career and his reputation around Blue Bay. Not that it was sterling.

[Craig]

She even convinces him she has a no nudity clause for the movie. Complete control sequel, prequel, prestige TV. All Black cast are untouchable. So in 2006, apparently they came up with a movie called Backstabbers that would have continued Susie's story. And Neve Campbell said it was a pretty cool script. She was growing up, had a kid with somebody, Bill Murray's character, blah, blah, blah. Wild things a generation later couldn't do it. Never happened. And then McNaughton was like, well, it could have been a streaming series. I actually think that would have been an interesting streaming series.

[Bill Simmons]

I think this would be a really good prestige tv. Like six to eight episode season.

[Craig]

I would be fired up. I will watch it if like Hulu.

[Bill Simmons]

Was like, yeah, this is a good Hulu show. It's a good Apple show.

[Craig]

Don't take this out of the pod, but let me say that part again. I'd be fired up if Netflix.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it would be a great sitting.

[Craig]

There for a streamer. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Fergie the florist or the 19 other people? As mentioned in this category, we can.

[Bill Simmons]

Also skip Wayne Jenkins as a dirty cop. Would be perfect here. Oh, Davey. You want to talk about Davey? Oh, fantastic.

[Craig]

Wayne Jenkins as Kevin Bacon.

[Van Lathan]

As Kevin Bacon.

[Bill Simmons]

He could either be the Rhaey Duquette character or he could be another dirty cop who's looking into Rhae. We could add yet another wrinkle because at the end, Gloria starts looking into Rhaey, right? She goes to see Walter and Ruby, and she's like, going on, what's up with this guy?

[Mallory Rubin]

Have we talked about how the other cop with bacon and the woman has just, like, a hardcore Chicago accent? He sounds like he's in the bear.

[Craig]

Who's the most famous sailor ever in.

[Bill Simmons]

The history of the world?

[Craig]

Ted Turner. Who's. Who's most known for sailing?

[Van Lathan]

Who's most known for sailing?

[Craig]

Ted Turner. Let's say Ted Turner. That would have been Wayne Jenkins in this.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, man.

[Craig]

We got our own Ted Turner over here. Look at him. Big sailor. Sorry, cr. Just one Oscar. Who gets it? The score?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, the score's good.

[Craig]

It's like a erotic thriller crossed with, like, kind of fun, goofy.

[Bill Simmons]

What about Bill Murray?

[Van Lathan]

Best supporting.

[Craig]

Best supporting.

[Van Lathan]

Real quick, sensei.

[Craig]

I have two unanswerable questions, but I'll let you go. I've made good ones.

[Bill Simmons]

They're like 100, but we've hit so many already.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so my unanswerable question.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a couple.

[Mallory Rubin]

What.

[Van Lathan]

What sport did Sam Lombardo play at Miami?

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's baseball.

[Craig]

Yeah, baseball.

[Van Lathan]

Think it's baseball.

[Bill Simmons]

There's no way. It's football. There's no way.

[Craig]

Carries himself like a baseball player. Probably left fielder, pitched a little bit.

[Van Lathan]

You don't think.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he was, like, a relief pitcher.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You don't think that he could have been, I don't know, like a. Like a free safety?

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Craig]

No.

[Van Lathan]

You don't think so?

[Craig]

Not at Miami.

[Bill Simmons]

At Miami.

[Van Lathan]

Not he. That.

[Craig]

That's his associate. I would go kicker. And that's it for Miami or CRE or if he was qb, he would have been known.

[Van Lathan]

Other one did. Teresa Van Ryan. Is that her name?

[Craig]

Sandra Van Ryan, svr.

[Van Lathan]

Did she actually kill the father?

[Craig]

I think that's assumed.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Or something.

[Craig]

It's like, oh, he killed himself.

[Bill Simmons]

The big. Yeah. No, ballistics in 1990 is a big, unanswerable question. So something. But. Or was it her? Or was it one of her lovers?

[Van Lathan]

Was it Sam Lombardo?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Was it one of her lovers?

[Craig]

Was it Franklin? She convinced the lover to kill him?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, something like that for sure.

[Craig]

What'd you have, Mal?

[Bill Simmons]

Who took the photos of Sam and Kelly fucking and snorting coke? That Susie shows great.

[Craig]

Oh to Sam. Oh is a great question for these movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Who took those pictures? Was it Susie herself? Was it Bill Murray? Was it Ken Bowden in from the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Jump was that wall?

[Van Lathan]

Probably who it was.

[Bill Simmons]

Did she have another secret accomplice? Like, does someone out there still know Bill Murray on the Bill Murray front? On the Ken Bowden front, we get kind of the Bruce and Alfred at the end of Dark Knight Rises. Cafe scene at the end.

[Craig]

I got that one.

[Van Lathan]

Did you?

[Craig]

I got that one. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I like that movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great.

[Bill Simmons]

Great film. Is the soda of hers that he takes a sip of when she walks away also poisoned? No loose ends. Did Susie also kill Ken?

[Van Lathan]

I feel like they have. I think they have a bond of people that got shit on in Blue Bay. I think the reason why they're connected is because they're Blue BAE trash.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that the less. My usual feline points to a depth of history there and shared experience. But the boy, I hope I never make you mad.

[Craig]

I have a good one that Craig's really gonna like. So these movies, when somebody escapes, right? Trading Places, Shawshank, this movie, whatever it is, they always end up in some resort on a beach, and it's always like, I'm gonna get my money. I'm gonna end up in some weird place. Nobody will know who I am. On the beach. I'm gonna have, like, a cocktail, right? White Lotus. No. But there's never a ski mountain. They never mix up the locations. Nobody's like, I'm gonna go to Whistler. Nobody's gonna find me. It's always like, if somebody escapes, all you have to do is go to, like, Barbados, St. Barts, Cabo, Hawaii. Just go fucking look for them in, like, 10 luxury hotels. You'll find them quickly.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, again, if they go to.

[Van Lathan]

Hawaii, then they're a fucking moron, because that's in the United States of America.

[Craig]

Good point, Cross yf.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, but this is literally the Greg Gary from White Loaded. It is like. It's just. I'm in a nice. Nice, like, tropical locale.

[Craig]

Nobody ever just goes, I'm gonna go cold. Nobody. Everyone will think, I'm going warm. I'm going the other way. I'm gonna go outside Vancouver, and I'm gonna get an awesome ski cabin someplace in Switzerland. And I'm gonna be dressed in, like, warm clothes the whole time with hats on. Nobody will.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll grow a beer of hot cocoa.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Hanging out.

[Craig]

Just comfortable pajamas. To see that wrinkle in a movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I love that.

[Craig]

All right, this is the most important thing I've done in a podcast with the two of you.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my God.

[Craig]

I. I need to really put my foot down on fluffing your own before a nude scene when you're a man.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And this is why I think Kevin Bacon. The no nudity clause. I don't believe it.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting.

[Craig]

That thing's coming out. It's like at a 45 degree angle, but he's moving.

[Bill Simmons]

It seems like it's moving with the movement of him turning.

[Craig]

There's some life in it.

[Van Lathan]

He.

[Craig]

He puffed it up. He knew it was going to be on camera. It wasn't like hanging like a dick. It was. This is the Saltburn guy. Same thing.

[Van Lathan]

Thing.

[Craig]

Fucking Saltburn guy was in the trailer like half fluffing himself for 10 minutes to get ready to run around the Saltburn mansion.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wouldn't you?

[Craig]

I'm not against it. I'm just saying this is the case for it. I actually think it is answerable. I think Kevin Bacon knew his dick was going to be in the movie because he fluffed himself.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, counterpoint.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Even if he doesn't know that it's going to be in the movie, there are a bunch of people on set.

[Van Lathan]

Who are going to still want to. Yeah, you still. A lot of people. They're gonna see the. They're gonna see the cop.

[Craig]

If you're not gonna see the movie and if his dick's not gonna be in it.

[Van Lathan]

That's a white word. Like is. Is. Is. I can't like his dick even if everybody sees it. So you want it to look okay.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

The director, the assistant director, the cinema coordinators, everybody.

[Craig]

Kevin Baker Bacon has a no nudity clause. Why can't he just be in like a. Like a little bikini?

[Bill Simmons]

That's a better question to.

[Craig]

I'm not gonna see his dick. Why do I have to see his dick?

[Van Lathan]

Or you can just shoot him. You don't need the full body shot.

[Craig]

I have no nudity clause. Put my fucking speedo on. I'm not gonna.

[Bill Simmons]

You guys might have been familiar with this term. I just learned it from the really excellent, still ongoing heated rivalry press tour that Hudson Williams and Connor Story are doing. And Hudson Williams referred to, was asked about, you know, filming these scenes and said, you have a cock sock modesty pouch.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's a very polite way of saying it. Cock sock gets. Gets right to the point.

[Craig]

Could have worn a cock sock, could have done that. All kinds of things.

[Van Lathan]

He obviously wanted. He. He knew what was happening. Yeah, he knew.

[Craig]

So good for him. I don't think I've ever had Bacon on the podcast, but if he came in and he's sitting right There in mouse chair. It's like we talk about. He thinks we're talking about new. I got. I got to start here. Kevin Bacon.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

This whole thing in Wild Things where you claimed they. You weren't going to see.

[Bill Simmons]

Like you wanted us to see it.

[Craig]

Admit it right now.

[Van Lathan]

I have another piece of evidence to add to this. He went back to the well. Hollow Man.

[Bill Simmons]

That's right.

[Craig]

Showed it again.

[Van Lathan]

Showed it again in Hollow Man.

[Craig]

Proud of his cop.

[Van Lathan]

Hollow Man. It came out of nowhere.

[Craig]

He's the owner. Kevin Bacon.

[Van Lathan]

He was kind of like in the. Like they had the heat vision of the hot woman.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Then Fred.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

The cop comes out in Hollow Man.

[Craig]

I have another question off this. Neve Campbell. No nudity clause because Party of Five. They didn't want her to be in a thing like that.

[Van Lathan]

This.

[Craig]

Why not? The show had shitty ratings. This would have been the greatest thing that ever could have happened to Party of Five. That she was in a movie like this. All it did was make more people want to watch Party of Five.

[Van Lathan]

You know what? I think about that too. Remember if we go back to Angel Heart. Remember they kicked Lisa Bonet off.

[Craig]

That was different.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. You know. You know, that was.

[Craig]

That was America's family.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. They were like, get the fuck out of here.

[Craig]

The Huxtables were the most important family in America. You couldn't have her riding Mickey Rourke covered in blood. Covered in chicken blood. Come on.

[Van Lathan]

I think would have been. I actually wasn't familiar. To me it felt like Party of Five was some kind of cultural phenomenon. Like everybody was talking about Party of.

[Bill Simmons]

Five let everyone do what they want. Watch party.

[Craig]

Just come clean.

[Bill Simmons]

Keep your shirt on. If you want to release the.

[Craig]

Release the cut. Like release the truth. Kevin Bacon.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, was Party of Five. How do we talk to an angel? How do I talk to an angel? Song.

[Craig]

No, no.

[Van Lathan]

What was. What song? What show was that?

[Craig]

No Party. What was the Party at Five?

[Van Lathan]

No, There was a guy that had a song and the song was like. He played a part in the show and then the song from the show went.

[Craig]

That was Jamie Walters.

[Van Lathan]

Jamie Walters.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

That wasn't part of Five.

[Craig]

How do you talk to an angel?

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I haven't thought about that guy.

[Craig]

What was the Party 5 song? Now that's going to drive me crazy. I haven't watched this. Whatever. We got to wrap this up. What piece of memorability would you want or not want from this movie?

[Bill Simmons]

Two cat candidates.

[Craig]

Champagne bottle.

[Van Lathan]

Champagne bottle.

[Bill Simmons]

Three candidates. I would want Sam's Educator of the Year trophy. I just think that's so funny.

[Craig]

I saw that. It's got the big bowl with the Sam Lombardo chatters.

[Bill Simmons]

But Educator of the Year is just hysterical.

[Craig]

Why was his last name Lombardo? He's not Italian. Where'd that come from? You feel like he was an Italian?

[Bill Simmons]

Where's your house, mister?

[Van Lathan]

I don't know.

[Craig]

Lombardo is an Italian name name.

[Van Lathan]

Could that not be Cuban? Maybe it's. Maybe it's Cuban.

[Craig]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

You have B. Susie's two teeth. The two teeth in the little.

[Craig]

Put them right behind you on the Minnesota. Do you have one?

[Van Lathan]

Susie's wig.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

At the end. And the obvious one is terrible.

[Craig]

Coach Finock. Mr. Miyagi Word. Best or worst Life lesson. People aren't always what they appear to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Also to large accounts and no loose ends.

[Craig]

Best dubbed feature choice.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Cruel Intentions. They're just so of the moment to me.

[Van Lathan]

I went Sliver. Actually went back and watched Sliver after I watched it.

[Craig]

Just terrible, terrible movie.

[Van Lathan]

Ridiculously bad.

[Craig]

Can I tell you something?

[Van Lathan]

Aged terribly as well. Most of these movies are not as bad when you watch them now. Sliver is nearly unwatchable. I'll see how it happened.

[Craig]

Saw it in the theater with Joe Hep House.

[Bill Simmons]

Incredible.

[Van Lathan]

What the.

[Craig]

Came to visit me in Boston for a few days. Sharon Stone.

[Bill Simmons]

What a beautiful friendship you two have had over the years.

[Craig]

Things we've shared. My double feature choice is Masquerade with Rob Lowe.

[Van Lathan]

I've never seen that.

[Craig]

Which is the most underrated erotic thriller of the 80s and 90s. Borderline rewatchables. But it's too obscure.

[Bill Simmons]

Interesting.

[Craig]

Rob Lowe. Kim Cattrall.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

Meg Till.

[Van Lathan]

How the fuck.

[Bill Simmons]

What year was this?

[Craig]

Oh, Van. Watch it this weekend.

[Van Lathan]

How did I miss this?

[Craig]

It's great. It's sailing. And it's like. Yeah, it's like Nantucket. Newport maybe. You know this movie?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, Newport's really having a moment right now. Thanks to the Gilded Age.

[Craig]

Thumbs up erotic thriller and wedding people.

[Van Lathan]

What year is this?

[Craig]

I'm going to say late 80s.

[Van Lathan]

88. How the fuck I never even heard of it. I don't know how I missed this.

[Craig]

Honestly, to be classic sounds like a future rewatch. But yeah, who won the movie? It's either down to Denise Richards or Kevin Bacon's dick. Oh, he's eligible.

[Van Lathan]

I got Denise Richards.

[Craig]

I have Denise Richards as well.

[Bill Simmons]

Iconic.

[Van Lathan]

Iconic Dana Delaney as well.

[Craig]

Dana Delaney. I like her fans watching us tonight. Craig, what do you got?

[Mallory Rubin]

Just about everything you want in a movie. Has it all checks, everybody box, every twist. Kind of, to be honest, genuinely caught me by surprise. I was like, oh, that's the last twist. And then there was another one. I was like, that's the last twist. And then there was another one. Yeah, Just like raw entertainment at its core.

[Bill Simmons]

Very raw.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great jeep. I don't think we talked about the Jeep.

[Craig]

Great Jeep.

[Van Lathan]

Great Jeep.

[Craig]

Also an unbelievable era for jeeps.

[Mallory Rubin]

The latest vacation jeep. Every time I'm on vacation, you rent a car. I love to rent a Jeep.

[Craig]

Jeep, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Not very non practical car.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it makes sense here.

[Van Lathan]

But then like when you're in the islands, it's perfectly practical.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love famous, talented people doing B movies. I just think that's the best you have the most fun. Everyone's not taking it seriously, but they're still talented.

[Bill Simmons]

I love it.

[Craig]

It's the kind of movie like Affleck tried to do this with that movie with Ana de Armas. Oh, yeah. But it's not a fun movie. It's just kind of this dark, weird sex comedy.

[Van Lathan]

Never saw it.

[Craig]

I don't know what you're talking about or not. Sex, comedy, sex drama.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

You know what movie I'm talking about.

[Bill Simmons]

This movie is not trying to take itself seriously.

[Craig]

Deep water.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Like every time they do this, they go too dark and they try to make it like an exploration or blah, blah, blah, and they forget the fun part.

[Mallory Rubin]

The guy who did Fatal Attraction. Adrian Lyon.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So like when you do a film like this, you kind of have to be really okay with the identity of the movie. It can only be so smart.

[Craig]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

Because sex is dumb. It's a primal instinct that we have that there are all types of societal complications. Up to nine minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Just the first nine minutes.

[Van Lathan]

First nine minutes.

[Craig]

First nine minutes. First nine minutes, man.

[Van Lathan]

All time flex y' all telling on y' all sales. Okay, we love that you just said nine and not ten.

[Bill Simmons]

You went out of your way to say first nine minutes.

[Craig]

That's all and not ten.

[Van Lathan]

So it's like if you. It's very complicated societally. It is. And there's a lot around safety and around appropriate. But like, when you're doing this movie and these characters are like motivated by this thing that you can't really stop. The movie can only be so smart. It can only be so deep. It has to be surface level to a degree. And we're kind of afraid to talk about sex in that way.

[Mallory Rubin]

Also, some of the beauty of these movies is that I don't know if you want to call it camp, but oftentimes camp is authentic. They don't know they're making a campy movie when they're making it. And then it ages into that genre.

[Van Lathan]

Fantastic point.

[Bill Simmons]

Definitely.

[Mallory Rubin]

So it's tough now because I think everyone is so aware the Internet. You get an immediate review. It just feels like it's harder to make something like this genuinely as opposed to trying to make it.

[Craig]

Well, that was like the Starship Trooper story. I don't know if this is apocryphal or not.

[Bill Simmons]

Great movie.

[Craig]

Caspar Van Diem was the only person who didn't know it was a campy movie. And they made him take it completely seriously and he had no idea what was actually happening. I don't know if that was true, but incredible. I always thought, like, kind of people have to buy in. It's like an airplane and Naked Gun in those movies when they hire real actors to be in some of the parts. Sure. Anyway, Van lathan.

[Van Lathan]

Yep.

[Craig]

First 10 minutes. Van.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

Great nickname. Where was Pride? Wonderful to be here.

[Craig]

Performance by you. Great job, Craig. A pleasure as always.

[Bill Simmons]

Never know if it'll be the last.

[Mallory Rubin]

Watch out.

[Van Lathan]

Watch out. Get some mail. I was with him. Let me tell you some bullshit now. I was just saying in the hot tub.

[Craig]

Some mail.

[Bill Simmons]

You think you're gonna get fact checked. First nine minutes. Van is gonna get fact checked.

[Mallory Rubin]

If you checks with Van, email us, please.

[Craig]

Thanks to Cahao and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, if you like the rewatchables on Netflix, you can just click us on my list every time we do an episode. It'll come up. But also watch us on Spotify as well. Well, thanks, guys.

[Van Lathan]

Good to see you. Very fun.