‘Witness’ With Bill Simmons and Mallory Rubin

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rewatchables — ‘Witness’ With Bill Simmons and Mallory Rubin

Date: August 26, 2025
Hosts: Bill Simmons, Mallory Rubin
Movie Discussed: Witness (1985, dir. Peter Weir)

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Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deep into Peter Weir’s Witness, a 1985 neo-noir romance and crime thriller starring Harrison Ford and Kelly McGillis. Cult favorite among The Rewatchables hosts, the film’s genre-bending story, star performances, and unique setting in Amish country serve as rich material for reflection. Mallory Rubin’s passion for the film fuels an energetic, affectionate conversation, with Bill and Mallory breaking down what makes it so enduringly rewatchable, its place in 1980s cinema, and the singular appeal of Harrison Ford as iconic star.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Harrison Ford’s Apex and Performance

• Ford as John Book: Both hosts celebrate Ford’s performance, noting its complexity, charisma, and nuanced physicality.
• Mallory: “It is the movie where I believe we see the hottest person who has ever lived. And that is Harrison Ford as John Book.” [02:21]
• Bill: “To me, this was always more of the Kelly McGillis … Sneaky, hot as a teenager.” [03:03]
• Ford’s 80s run highlighted: Empire, Raiders, Blade Runner, Jedi, Temple, and finally Witness. Nothing quite compares, says Mallory.
• Ford achieved his only Oscar nomination for Witness (never won): “This, to me, is one of, like, the great injustices in the history of Hollywood.” [12:02]

The Complexities of ‘Witness’

• The film’s unique blend: part police thriller, part forbidden romance, part “reverse fish out of water”—and Western.
• On Witness as a genre-bender: “It is, of course, a movie that features cops. But the cop plot is … much more mechanism and fact than core focus.” [82:30]
• The script is revered for its structure; praised for visual storytelling and reliance on glances, restraint, and subtext rather than dialogue.
  • Bill: “They don’t really do this anymore. In movies, with very few exceptions, everything is so dialogue heavy now. This movie is so good like that.” [18:28]
• Peter Weir’s direction: The balance between silent longing, visual storytelling, and mood is hailed as both of its era and timeless.

Chemistry, Desire, and the Power of Restraint

• Mallory identifies Witness as a “portrait of desire” where what isn’t shown or said ignites the film’s heat.
  • “This movie is about yearning. It’s about something that you want, but you don’t know if you should have it.” [46:37]
• The barn dance scene—dancing to “Wonderful World”—is Mallory’s “single easiest category pick” for most rewatchable scene ever.
  • “That taught me what sex was, even though it’s not a sex scene.” [47:56]
• The infamous “sponge bath stare-down” scene, and the kiss, are dissected as moments where restraint heightens emotion and eroticism.

The Amish World as Character

• Both hosts love movies that transport viewers into immersive, unfamiliar worlds.
  • “We’re in this whole Amish Society for 100 minutes, and it’s really riveting. … By the end of it, I feel like I get it.” [24:53]
• The pacifism/violence conflict is sharply drawn; Book’s city ways contrast, infiltrate, and sometimes threaten the stability of the Amish community.

Oscar Debate and 1985 in Film

• The 1985 Oscars are discussed at length. Witness lost Best Picture to Out of Africa and Ford lost Best Actor to William Hurt.
  • Mallory: “I think both are [robbed]. People didn’t love Out of Africa when it came out … it wasn’t like a multiple Oscar winner.” [16:37]
• The hosts lament that many all-time iconic Ford performances (Indiana Jones, The Fugitive) weren’t even nominated.
• Analysis of the year’s other nominees shows just how competitive certain years were, but the hosts argue Witness’s legacy has outshone many competitors.

Supporting Cast, Direction, and Production

• Kelly McGillis’s breakout, Lucas Haas as Samuel (praised for his “stare through your soul” performance) [38:57–39:57], and Alexander Godunov’s tragic real-life arc.
• Danny Glover’s rare “evil” performance is celebrated; the supporting cast (many with little acting experience) blend into the world seamlessly.
• Weir’s direction and his love for visual storytelling is considered crucial. The barn-raising scene, a paragraph in the script, becomes a major emotional anchor.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you’ve done your job, you should know how they feel about each other—no words needed.” –– Mallory [20:25]
• “One of my favorite anecdotes … she was working at a coffee shop and … Harrison Ford and Peter Weir walked in, and everyone was like, that’s fucking Harrison Ford.” –– Mallory [31:54]
• “There are so many smart little things. I really love this movie. … It’s so good.” –– Bill [22:38]
• “He makes it look easy, is my point. And I don’t think that’s an easy role.” –– Bill, on Ford as Book [85:18]
• “I think the answer to ‘Did this movie need a better sex scene?’ is no. … it’s about the buildup… not actually about the culmination.” –– Mallory [65:41]
• “She broke the rule of the Ordnong. … I like when there’s weird phrases and words, but we don’t know what they are.” –– Bill [45:08]
• “Most rewatchable scene? … This as the most rewatchable scene because it is maybe my favorite scene in a movie ever.” –– Mallory on the barn dance [46:17]
• “Could Mallory Rubin have been Amish? Is John Book there?” [111:53]—the answer is (over and over) only if Harrison Ford’s character is present.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |:-------------:|:------------| | 02:21 | Mallory explains love for Witness, Ford as sex symbol | | 03:44–04:43 | Ford’s 80s run; star power context | | 09:53–11:08 | Ford’s “swordsman” reputation, Eve Babitz quote | | 12:07–16:54 | Oscar injustice & 1985 awards debate | | 17:23–20:31 | Direction, Peter Weir’s visual storytelling | | 20:58–22:38 | The subtlety and restraint in performance and writing | | 23:43–26:36 | Amish world as immersive setting; violence theme | | 38:37–47:56 | Rewatchable scenes rundown; barn dance scene focus | | 46:37–47:56 | “Portrait of desire”; yearning more powerful than consummation | | 65:41–66:01 | Did it need a better sex scene? (Mallory: no; it’s perfect) | | 80:52–81:20 | The slow-mo “laughing makeout” scene critique | | 83:57–85:17 | Is this Ford’s best role? Bill and Mallory debate | | 94:15–95:02 | Apex Mountain: Is this Ford’s apex? Debate | | 111:49–113:28 | Could the hosts survive as Amish? (debate over food, TV, coffee, sports) |

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Additional Highlights & Running Jokes

• Sponge Bath Stare-down is analyzed repeatedly as a subtle, erotic moment (with both hosts joking about Amish sexuality and shunning).
• Running joke about Ford’s legendary sexual prowess, using the apocryphal “nine times a day” Eve Babitz quote.
• Mallory revels in Ford’s appeal, Bill gently needles her about Daniel (the “stepdad in waiting”) and Rachel’s quick move from widowhood to romantic intrigue.
• Investigation of cultural artifacts: Amish beards (“never understood”), barn-raising as riveting set-piece, 1980s score as “utterly of its era.”
• The tragic real-life arc of Alexander Godunov, and Lucas Haas’s emergence as a prominent supporting actor (and Leonardo DiCaprio’s real-life “posse”).
• Running through the “What If” Rewatchables categories (casting, double feature, weak link, best food/shot, and more).
• Mallory’s awesome hypothetical: “Could I be Amish?” Only if John Book’s in the community.

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Conclusion: Why ‘Witness’ Remains Rewatchable

Witness is celebrated not just as a crime thriller, but as a film that manages to seamlessly blend suspense, romance, and cultural anthropology. The hosts make a persuasive case that its technical restraint, yearning-driven romance, Ford’s career-defining performance, and singular Amish setting make it singular among 1980s (and all-time) American cinema.

Mallory sums it up: Witness is a “masterpiece,” a story more about longing and the power of unspoken connection than about violence or genre mechanics, and remains on her personal Mount Rushmore. For both hosts, the movie’s visual storytelling and immersive world make it endlessly rewatchable.

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Who Won the Movie?

Harrison Ford.
Mallory: “He’s my number one all timer … Harrison Ford is the hottest person who’s ever lived. He won, as always.” [116:56]

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For further discussion, the episode is a masterclass in movie analysis and fandom—especially for anyone who loves Ford, complex onscreen yearning, or 80s cinema that takes big, original swings.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by FX's alien Earth. From creator Noah Hawley and executive producer Ridley Scott comes the first television series inspired by the legendary Alien film franchise. A spaceship crash lands on Earth, bringing five unique and deadly species more terrifying than anyone could have ever imagined. And a technological advancement marks a new dawn in the race for immortality alone. FX's alien Earth. All new Tuesdays on FX and Hulu. The Rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. The ringer, named Mallory Rubin, was intimately involved with deciding. That's right, from about 40 selections.

[Mallory Rubin]

Could have been brainwrecked.com could have been chase the night dot com. Fascinating alternate history.

[Bill Simmons]

Brainwreck.com would have been a terrible idea.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was your idea.

[Bill Simmons]

I know that sounds like. I don't know what, like an energy drink gone wrong. I don't know what it is. You can hear Mallory on House of R. That's right, a great podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thanks.

[Bill Simmons]

You pop on a bunch of our podcasts? Actually.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Always nice to be here with you on the Rewatchables.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, first time in person in a while for just a one on one.

[Mallory Rubin]

My first time here.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like an intimate Harrison Ford.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, that's how I like it.

[Bill Simmons]

Kind of talking date for us. You've gone into this movie since we launched the feed.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

We are now in year nine of the Rewatchables, headed toward 400 movies. It is one word movie month. And I just texted you last week and I said witness. And you were ready to go. Witness this next. This episode of the Rewatchables is presented by Prime. You listen to this podcast for the movie Talk. So let's set the scene. Our lead, tall, dark, stranded at the airport, hours of delays. He's scrolled, strolled and loitered by every overpriced snack stand. But just when all hope seems lost, plot twist, he remembers he has prime and with it a whole library of free ebooks ready to read right from his device. Cue the triumphant score. Roll credits. Free ebooks library. It's on Prime. All right, Mallory Rubin, is this your favorite movie?

[Mallory Rubin]

Top 10, unquestionably, probably top five. It is one of my favorite movies ever. And it is definitely one of the movies that I revisit the most often and think about the most. And as you know, we'll talk about this at length today. But it is the movie where I believe we see the hottest person who has ever lived. And that is Harrison Ford as John Book.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not Viggo Morten no, though he looks great. Is that Alexander Goodnuff?

[Mallory Rubin]

Daniel looks great. Moses looks great. Everybody looks great in the movie. But when book drums the top of the car in the barn, we've just never witnessed anything like it in the history of the world. What a privilege to be here today to talk about it with you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I don't have the same relationship with that aspect of it. To me, this was always more of the Kelly McGillis.

[Mallory Rubin]

Also wonderful.

[Bill Simmons]

Sneaky, hot as a teenager.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And they threw a brief nude scene in there. And then she went on to fall in love with Maverick.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right. Big stretch.

[Bill Simmons]

Big ones. What a mid-80s for Kelly. Great meddies for her. This was Harrison Ford's official, unquestionable. I'm now an A plus lister. If you didn't already think that. Because he had two Raiders movies. He had the two Star wars movies and he had Blade Runner, I would say. But they were all like kind of. They all had some sort of gimmick with them. This is like an actual Robert Redford, Paul Newman movie star part that those guys easily would have played 10 years earlier.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I mean, the franchise king goes Prestige, right. Is sort of like the summation of what happens here. I. You know, we've talked about this before. You've talked about this, obviously, many times. You've done many Harrison Ford movies on the rewatchables. Great.

[Bill Simmons]

Not as many as I thought.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not as many as you should have. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's almost like there's enough left for a Harrison Ford month. Like, for real.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm available.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

I figured you would be standing by and I'm available. His run in the 80s is unrivaled. I think it's unmatched. I don't think that there's any run you can put up against it and say this is better. Definitively better. And specifically 80 to 85. I mean, the whole 80s, but empire into Raiders into Blade Runner into Jedi into Temple of Doom into Witness What Compares? Nothing.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretty great. And then he has the Mosquito coast stumble. And yet. That's a good movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

I like that movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Peter Weir.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

The same director for this one.

[Mallory Rubin]

The collaboration continuing.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's an interesting moment. They filmed this in 84, but it comes out in February. 85.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And it's an interesting moment for the A list movie stars because we have Redford, Newman, Burt Reynolds. They're all now a little too old. Like Newman was in the Verdict a couple years. He's just aged out of this. Redford has aged out, but doesn't want to admit it yet. Like, he's playing Roy Hobbs in the Natural and he's pretending to be 16 years old. The barn scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And Burt Reynolds just all of a sudden has a rug on his head and just looks like, what's happening? Hanks isn't ready yet. Tom Cruise too young.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Travolta has blown. Was sitting there for him for years. Maybe three years earlier. He's the guy in Witness. Stallone's kind of over here.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Clint's kind of over here. And Michael Douglas is starting to happen. Like, Romance in The stone is 84, but it hasn't really happened. And Harrison Ford for, like, two years here, is just the guy you would put in movies like this.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, two years. Like, more like two.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, then he. Then he protects it. But I'm saying, like, this is. He's the obvious a list choice for a role like this.

[Mallory Rubin]

He is the most powerful force in the history of the world. That is a thing that I believe to be true. And I would say that he is, like, the rare thing in our fractured world that we can all agree on. You know, he is just.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Who doesn't like Harrison Ford?

[Mallory Rubin]

I wouldn't want to know that person. Wouldn't want to spend time with them.

[Bill Simmons]

What a weird zag that would be.

[Mallory Rubin]

I wouldn't want to do a podcast with them.

[Bill Simmons]

What would be the case?

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think there is a case, because he is, like, the consummate. You want to be him and you want to be with him. Right. He the ultimate action hero, action star. But he's also, like, gentle. He's a little. A little goofy. Right. He leans into the quirk. He's charming, he's charismatic. He is like, one of the things that I love talking about with Harrison Ford, and every time I rewatch any of his movies, gets such a kick out of is the hand acting. You know, the. Like Blade Runner, my ultimate favorite example. But it's present in every movie, including this one. And that's such a, like, particular affectation for somebody who only really needs to stand there and ooze and exude magnetism. Yeah, but he does all of these different things. You believe that he's the President. You believe that he's Dr. Richard Kimball. You believe that he's a cop. You believe that he's Indiana Jones. You believe that he's Han Solo. He's a rogue. He's a scoundrel. He's capable of playing the smartest man in the room. He can be empathetic what about evil?

[Bill Simmons]

Harrison Ford? What lies beneath?

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Hiding a dark secretary.

[Mallory Rubin]

Harrison Ford. Right. I mean, we get frantic in 88. Frantic in 88. And working girl in 88 is one of the great duo film installments in a single year. Just incredible stuff. He is just an unbelievably potent star who has been present in our lives across decades. This is the most incredible strike, but like the fact that we're living through now, the, the fortissance, you know, he's back. He's doing 1923. He was just in a Marvel movie playing Thunderbolt Ross and Red Hulk. Spoiler. He's, you know, he's on shrinking. He just got nominated for an Emmy for playing Paul and shrinking. Like he's just been this inextricable aspect of our movie going. And now TV experience for 50 century.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. If you start with American Graffiti, it's more than a half a century.

[Mallory Rubin]

What is life without Harrison for 52 years? Not a life.

[Bill Simmons]

I recognize it'll be a top five most devastating actor death.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I can't think about it. I do have like, I don'. Really spend much time on Twitter anymore. But back in the day when I was on Twitter a lot, anytime I saw that he was trending, you just got scared. Terrified. Like that he had like crashed a plane again or that something horrible had happened. But usually it was just him saying something amazing on a press tour, you know, is the best.

[Bill Simmons]

You said it earlier. But it's the key thing with him. And only a couple of people have this where guys would want to hang out with them and women want to date them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And if you find the actor who can hit both of those and the guys aren't nagging him or jealous of him or anything. They're just like, yeah, he seems like a cool guy. I would have a beer with him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Who wouldn't want to have a bourbon with Harrison Ford? Who wouldn't? One of the things I love is that anytime you hear somebody who has bonded with him in the process of making a picture with him, like Peter Weir talks about this a lot with Witness. Right. It's like I went to Harrison's ranch, you know, he picked me up on the airfield in Wyoming. I, I what is not amazing about that?

[Bill Simmons]

That's the dream. Well, he, and he would. He married Melissa Matheson. Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, he's had three wives who had.

[Bill Simmons]

Been with Spielberg for a little bit there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But he, he didn't really. He wasn't like the Brad Pitt where he was always in these Famous paparazzi relationships. There was always mystery. I never really knew that much about Harrison Ford's personal life. I always just knew him from the movies. Whereas, like, I think that shifted over the last 30 years. With Cruz.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Brad Pitt. With Leo.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He's felt like he had more access about what their lives were. Like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Counterpoint.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, maybe.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, not a counterpoint. Maybe a co point. Because you're right about the access to information, real time. Obviously, when you have something like Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher, there's a lot of, like, intrigue around it.

[Bill Simmons]

And think about that. We never knew that forever.

[Mallory Rubin]

But now, like, sitting here now in 2025. Anybody who knows that Harrison Ford exists knows that he is the ultimate lover. The Eve swordsman. Ultimate swordsman. You're familiar with the Eve Babbitts quote? The famous one, right?

[Bill Simmons]

What was that one? Is this gonna.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's see. If I remember it.

[Bill Simmons]

It's gonna make me uncomfortable.

[Mallory Rubin]

The thing about Harrison is Harrison could. I believe that is the quote. And then she went on to say that he could fuck. And now I'm paraphrasing. Could. Could fuck nine women a day or a woman nine times. And that's exhausting. He's Babbitts.

[Bill Simmons]

Who's he? Babbitts.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, come on. Famous, like writer and the figure in the history of. Of culture who had an intimate awareness of Harrison Ford's prowess as a. What, yoga? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

How would she know that? That just sounds like somebody. She didn't date him, though. Or did she?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, well, yeah. I mean, they had a man. An intimate acquaintance, as many women did, with Harrison Ford. Which is the point. He was very active.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe that's why he had to start smoking pot. It. To calm down. His. His little Harrison.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, nine times a day is unthinkable.

[Bill Simmons]

I never believed those stories. Every time they say those, I'm always like, all right.

[Mallory Rubin]

It just actually seems like it would be a real scheduling challenge. Like, logistics.

[Bill Simmons]

There's shaping. I don't know, there's like fluid replenishment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. A lot of friction. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's tough.

[Bill Simmons]

But who knows? They always said that with Warren Beatty, that was like any. Like, that book about him where it was like literally anyone was in play at all time for him. It didn't matter what they looked like. It was just somebody make eye contact with them and then it was off. They're on Interesting Wrinkle with Witness and Harrison Ford. Tell me, your beloved guy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Only Oscar nomination ever.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right. I didn't know when in the podcast know this.

[Bill Simmons]

I felt like I knew this and blocked it out or forgot it, but I just would have assumed there are more. And then I went through all the movies, and I was like, I get it. It doesn't make sense.

[Mallory Rubin]

But this, to me, is one of, like, the great injustices in the history of Hollywood.

[Bill Simmons]

That he didn't win or that he's only gotten one?

[Mallory Rubin]

Both. I think he should have won for playing John Buck in Witness. I think it's a sensational performance. It's a wonderful role. That's a really weird Academy Awards year.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm ready to talk about it. We just click your fingers. I'm ready to go.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so there's that. Let's dive into it. But then also the fact that he was never nominated again, like, so what.

[Bill Simmons]

Were the other ones? Like, would you have said Blade Runner?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, you know, I would say.

[Bill Simmons]

That was a more loaded year, I think is the problem.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, right. So that was 82. So the 83 Academy Awards.

[Bill Simmons]

Working Girl. Working Girl. Supporting actor.

[Mallory Rubin]

Could have been supporting for Working Girl Fugitive.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Come on.

[Bill Simmons]

The thing is, those action parts don't usually get Oscar noms.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's never been. He was never nominated for playing Indiana Jones at any point. I know it was, like, a different period of Hollywood, but it just feels like his stature and heft and significance in the history of Hollywood is, like, not reflected in the fact that he has only been nominated once for an Oscar. Now he kind of famously shrugs this off and says it's not important and says he doesn't care. And because he's Harrison Ford, I actually believe him. But that doesn't mean it's right.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a couple parts he showed that you clearly. Like, when he did branch Ricky in 42, it felt a little.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Little chasing it. But I don't think he cares. I mean, the thing when you read about him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, he talks about how Mosquito coast didn't make money, and he was like, that's the first movie I ever made that didn't make 100 million. Like, he's. He was keeping track of how successful he was versus other people. The thing with the Oscar noms, because this happens in sports, people get mad that LeBron hasn't won an MVP since 2013, that Kobe only won one MVP, and they'll just say it. But if you actually go through the IMDb. In this case, I only had three where I was like, oh, he might have gotten robbed. But then you have to look at the year and all the Other performances.

[Mallory Rubin]

What were the few that you thought should have been?

[Bill Simmons]

Blade Runner is pretty.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretty good case for that one. I think the first Indy and I think working girl. 100%.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Raiders not being a nomination is so strange. I really do think the Fugitive is a bizarre, bizarre miss. That's an odd one.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that was a really hard year, though.

[Mallory Rubin]

The thing about Blade Runner, which, as you know, is one of my favorite movies and one of the certainly most important movies in my household.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's my husband's favorite movie. You know, the one thing about that that makes it, while it is still a shock and a scandal and an outrage, maybe not surprising, is that, as you know, of course, Blade Runners esteem really grew over time. That feels to me like a time capsule. Like if you went back and redid it and people brought to that moment in time how they feel about that film now, and it's standing as a sci fi classic, it would be different, but that wasn't the instant. In real time, no reception was considered.

[Bill Simmons]

Kind of a bomb.

[Mallory Rubin]

When are we going to do the Blade Runner rewatchables, specifically the Ridley Scott director's cut? Sign me up.

[Bill Simmons]

How many different cuts are there?

[Mallory Rubin]

There are a lot of cuts of Blade Runner, but that's. That. That would be the one that we.

[Bill Simmons]

Should do so that Oscars with the Fugitive. Hanks wins for Philadelphia. Dana Day Lewis, in the Name of the Father, Laurence Fishburne. What's Love Got to Do with It.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Liam Neeson, Schindler's List, and then Anthony Hopkins, the Remains of the Day.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's pretty stacked.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the thing. He just had bad luck with some of these. I still feel like a part like Indiana Jones.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Is just so much harder than people realize that you. To pull up the charm of it. It's weird because Brad Pitt gets credit for this. I agree with some of these parts now, like, even F1. I don't think he's gonna get nominated for F1. But he got credit for, like, oh, only Brad Pitt could have done this. Ford. It took a while. I just think there were too many good actors. I don't almost feel like you didn't get the credit. And he also didn't have, like, his version of Dances with Wolves or those big, like, epics that where everybody just jerks each other off about how, you know, this is. This is the out of Africa thing, though.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So, yeah, this was his best chance, I think, for an Oscar. And what happens is this is this weird time in the Oscars. When they got carried away with these big, sweeping, epic, you know, picture with big directors or big actors. And out of Africa wins Best Picture and Best Director.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And then William Hurt wins for Kiss of the Spider Woman, which. He's really good in that. I mean, I get it, but. But, like, I think there's actually a better case for Witness being robbed in the movie than Ford for actor.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think both are.

[Bill Simmons]

People didn't love out of Africa when it came out. You go back, I was reading it last night. Reading. I was like, I thought that movie was slow and ponderous. I never understood the red for character. And then you read the reviews, and people were going, right, yeah, it's good. There's some good stuff in here. But it wasn't like a multiple Oscar winner. Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

And it dominated the Oscars. You have something like the Color Purple getting shut out after getting all of its nominations. Witness got eight nominations, one, two. Cinematography and editing. But, like, Peter Weir, I think, also has a really strong case. He's been nominated multiple times for Best Director. But this is like a unbelievably directed movie. And I think especially it was really fun to prep for this pod because I love the movie. I've. I've been watching this movie since I was, like, a kid.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And diving it, like, learning more about it, watching, you know, the bonus features on the DVD. And they put out the Arrow 4K Ultra a couple of years ago. So checking out, like, the specials on that. You know, you hear Peter Weir talk about the movie, and, like, on the one hand, he'll say, I'm, like, a little surprised that this is a movie that people still love so much. I didn't think it would have this kind of lasting impact and legacy. But then when he talks about it, every single choice he made and the level of care and what he did, the choices he made in particular to, like, amend the. The screenplay. Sorry, I said cinematography one. It didn't. Screenplay one.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

John Steele did not win for cinematography. He was nominated, but he didn't win. It won for screenplay, and it's an incredible screenplay. But Weir did so much work to amend the screenplay and dampen down the dialogue and really, like, orient the movie and root the movie in restraint and these glances and these longing looks. It's beautifully and impeccably shot and directed film. So, you know, Sidney Pollock won for out of Africa, and that's not, like, crazy or anything, but would you not have picked Weir?

[Bill Simmons]

It makes sense in the 80s just because of the stuff they rewarded. It makes no sense now, because I just. I don't think culturally that movie really matters. And I think it's surprising looking back at what it won. But I think watching this again and then reading some of the stuff which I'd never deep dived, the actual research which we have to do in the rewatchables, some of the things they cut out, some of the dialogue they cut out and how he's always deferring toward. I want this to be visual. I want to center on the reactions. And they don't really do this anymore. In movies, with very few exceptions, everything is so dialogue heavy now. This movie is so good like that. Like, one of the best scenes we'll do a rewatchable scene is when the little kid Samuel sees Danny Glover's picture historic. And Ford just lowers his finger. It's. It's just that this movie has like 19 things like that. Just these little touches that are just make it special.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could go through start to finish and you're never going more than 12 minutes without a moment like that where you were just completely gripped and oriented. And like you have your mooring because of somebody's eyes. And I think to your point about how that feels like really of a moment in time, like, I mean, there are a lot of good movies and a lot of good TV right now, but I think undeniably there's an aspect of like, can we trust our audience as much? In the Sensory Overload era, people are on their phones, people are distracted. You need to have all of these like, expositions.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're on your phone during that Danny Glover scene, you miss what happened. You're like, wait, what happened? And then you just missed it.

[Mallory Rubin]

But in this era, people were actually paying attention to the beautiful art in front of them. Something like. And again, I know we'll talk about this more later when we go through the. All of the scenes and all of the great choices, but something like Peter Weir, it's fascinating to hear him talk about this, saying that there were multiple pages of dialogue at the end of the film where Rachel and Book basically explain to each other what they're thinking in doing.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, that sounds awful.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Why did they even have. Why did they. These two never exchanged more than like five words together.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know it's a very like base, animalistic bond, but the fact that like Peter Weir is like, if I've done my. And this is literally what he says, right? Like, if I've done my job by that point, you should know how they feel about each Other. And how they feel about the choice that they've had to make and what they're leaving behind and what they're each moving toward. And the fact that you can see that in a little smile, but also, like, the glassy eyes because of the emotion and the tears. Who looks away? Who looks back? When are their eyes meeting?

[Bill Simmons]

When Samuel, at the end.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

How many times have you cried during that scene?

[Mallory Rubin]

I am. I am.

[Bill Simmons]

Goodbye, John Book.

[Mallory Rubin]

Goodbye, John Book. I am moved to a lot of different powerful feelings and emotions watching Witness. Sometimes tears, sometimes more private things, but all very. All very powerful.

[Bill Simmons]

I love how they're just hanging out. And it's not like, I think in a. In a bad movie, mediocre movie, or even a decent movie, there's Harrison Ford's character saying, now, Samuel.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Remember what.

[Bill Simmons]

You're going to be great. Remember what I told. Like, just like, here are my words of wisdom. And they just don't do that. No, he just, like, kind of puts his head against them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. It's like a very subtle. I love the nuzzle. I love the little head pat. It's a very subtle film. It's very restrained. It's, like, kind of delicate, but in a beautiful way. And in a way, of course, that is very, like, entwined with and connected to the contrast between the worlds in the film. But the fact that, like, when you go to Lancaster and everything at the. At the Lap Farm and in Amish country, it's not suddenly, like, big city cop energy has seeped and saturated every scene of this experience. It's like. No, there is. What do we hear? Over and over again? You look plain. There's, like, a plainness to it. There's a pastoral quality. We'll have multiple moments. Maybe my favorite example of this actually, is, like, that we're saying that the barn raising is a paragraph in the script. It's like. I mean, how long is that scene?

[Bill Simmons]

It's like five minutes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah. And you're just watching people exist in a community. And it's really gripping.

[Bill Simmons]

There's so many smart little things. I really love this movie. I've watched it a bunch of times.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's so good.

[Bill Simmons]

Even when they're building the bar and they take the break and they're all eating.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love that.

[Bill Simmons]

And Alexander Goodenough's character.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He just looks over and he's just staring at, like. You're so used to all these movies where it's like, oh, this guy's gonna be a dick to John Book. And they're gonna have a little thing, and it never happens. He's always just. They're always just kind of sizing each other up. Book clearly knows, like, I'm gonna leave here and this guy's gonna marry Kelly McGillis character. And that's how we. We all know how this is gonna play out. But we have to, like, do this little dance. And I just don't. I think movies fuck that up all the time, though.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. You're, like, luxuriating in a moment.

[Bill Simmons]

You'd be like, I don't know who you think you are. English. Like, we just would have had.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And they just don't do it.

[Mallory Rubin]

And every character that's true for.

[Bill Simmons]

I kind of like Daniel.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, well, you have to.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if they had the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Same spark, to say the least, as Kelly McGillis and Harrison.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think the fire was burning his bright, but I think he'll be a good stepdad to our guy Samuel.

[Mallory Rubin]

He will. I think that that moment, like, the. The. You know, there's a lot of, like, resisting Daniel's presence. Right. Because you're so swept up in the love story as Book and Rachel are just becoming, like, enraptured with each other. You want to watch them fall in love. You want to see them find a way to be together, even though, you know, just, like, they know in the back of your minds that it can't happen. And so when Daniel comes over and he's like, I'm sitting here kind of, like, awkwardly in silence, swinging on the porch with you, you're like, man, I'm really not feeling it. And also, clearly, neither is Rachel. But you unders. You never lose sight of the fact that that's the thing that makes sense and that that's probably where we're gonna end up. And that Clos driving away and Daniel.

[Bill Simmons]

Walking, that's another one where they don't stop. We don't have, like, one last thing, like, take care of them. Nothing. He's just like, no.

[Mallory Rubin]

You just see brake lights. You know, they had a little brief moment, but we didn't need to actually hear it. We understand what has transpired. Great.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, another great thing about this movie. We enter a world. I always talk about this. Almost 400 movies, these movies where we just go into this place that I don't really understand or know that much about.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We're in this whole amish Society for 100 minutes, and it's really riveting. And you're watching, and they do Such a good job of checking every box of everything you need to understand about this little, little world that we're in. And by the end of it, I feel like I get it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And I understand why it's so damaging to have an outsider and all these things from the outside world come in there. And why they're all like, what the fuck? Like, right, like this. He just punched some. He just punched some bully on the street.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great scene.

[Bill Simmons]

We don't do things that way. We would rather just, you know, we're pacifists. And then there's this whole pacifist versus violence theme that it's just perfectly done.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Like, it feels like anything from the townies with the ice cream cone on Daniel's face to Samuel finding the gun, to obviously the west, the western showdown at the end when the dirty cops all arrive. The. The number of moments where, like, I love the phrasing, you know, that Eli uses the gun of the hand. Like this incursion of violence in this peaceful, quiet world. And the moments where book, like, he's so ashamed when Rachel catches him and Samuel with the gun and he's like, right, no, yeah, I get it. But then when he has to go into town, it's like, I need that back. Like, I haven't given that up. I have just. Just decided that I will respect your way of life while I'm here.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But then, obviously it's on the heels of, you know, learning about Carter and the call with Schaefer. But when he sees the town, he's mocking these people who he has come to form an attachment with. And he has embraced. What? Even though it's not the choice he's going to make, it's not right for me. Has embraced their life and come to.

[Bill Simmons]

Value and understand a couple times.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, no question. When he's like.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, you know what? I could just mix, make some corn and milk some teats.

[Mallory Rubin]

4:00Am Bill, it's time for milking. Yeah, it's time for milking.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll work on young Samuel, teach him some stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dude. The moment where no matter how many times I see this movie, when he goes, well, obviously, talk about the sponge bath in great detail. But after that next morning, when he goes and he seeks her out, they're like, separated by the wire. He's in that gorgeous forest green shirt. He just looks so fucking hot. It's insane. I should have a more elegant way of saying I don't. He just looks so fucking hot. It's crazy. Like, Rachel, if We had made love last night. I'd have to stay or you'd have to go. And I'm like, go, go, Rachel. Look at him.

[Bill Simmons]

Take him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Go.

[Bill Simmons]

He said if we had made love last night, we would have had to make love another eight times. Because that's how I roll.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's nine a day for me, or it's not a day well spent.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't know if you could handle my. My nine a day.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's a big city cop. She's got a sister in Baltimore. This is a really unexplored element of the film. What's Rachel's sister doing down in Baltimore? My home. Rachel, Book and Samuel. Let's go live a life down in Baltimore. It's a great place.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Your husband just died. Let's. It's time to change life a little bit. Let's go.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

I love entering a world.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

I also love movies with really good scripts. And what I didn't realize until I did the research was that this is one of the most respected scripts for fledgling movie people over the last 40 years. Because the structure is so perfect.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which it is. But I just. I've seen this movie so many times. I never really.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It never really occurred to me how perfect it is where it's like, first part thriller, where this fish out of water, they see something bad. Like, we've seen that version. Now all of a sudden in the second part, book is healed back to life. He's in this Amish world and it's like, oh, shit, this is a completely different movie. And then the last act is the bad people have now come to this place that was this idyllic, awesome place that I was happy in. And they've upended it. And then the movie ends and it's just first act, second act, third act credits.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's really tight. I mean, you hear people talk about how it was quite long and 180 some page script and tracking for three hours and edited down and obviously tweaked over time. But yeah, the like, genre mashup aspect of it and the need to. To pace it so that we feel. I. I want to. I don't want to, like, step on some of the categories because I think this will come up a lot later. But I'm always kind of amazed when I rewatch it that how much time actually, like, is outside of Amish country before. I mean, obviously we start there with the funeral and then the train ride and everything, but we are in the, like, we have had a murder there's been a murder. We're like trying to get Samuel to idea suspect. We're in Philly, we're in the big city. Like Books, sister's house. Patti LuPone.

[Bill Simmons]

You go to a bar for some reason, pull somebody out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wild stretch with T bone at the bar. That's like the first 30 some minutes of the movie before Book drops them off and then passes out and ends up and to your fish out of water point with Samuel and Rachel in the big city. The way that we are still, we're always in a fish out of water movie. It just flips. Book becomes the fish out of water. And like, that's so deftly nimbly done. Where it turns. It's always a clash of cultures. No matter where we are in the film, it's always a matter of contrast. But the lens through which we're assessing that contrast pivots and it's awesome.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, Peter Weir directed it. It's the first American movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He had done Year of Living Dangerously and Gallipoli and. But it comes into America. Does this, does Mosquito Coach, then.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Dead Poets. Neil. One of our faves. Truman show master and commander. Peter Weir's made a lot of good movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Made a lot of good movies. This and Witness and Dead Poets, I feel like, are definitely siblings. They're not even cousins.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a lot of the same touches you. Like, if you watch both, you would absolutely think it was the same director for both. Even the music.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Some of the music parts feel the same. Some of the wide shots of the outdoors.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. There's an introspection and a tenderness. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like scenes without dialog. I guess the difference is Dead Poets has like that Robin Williams, like jumpstart energy, whereas Witness, I guess, has the murder. But there's something about the way he does his movies.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That is really distinct to him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I haven't seen anybody quite like him. Just very patient, wide. The actors are always. Oh, you always feel like they're in a good spot. See, of that you have Kelly McGillis. We talked about her.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Great role. And she became a thing. Like, it was like, who's. Who's this lady? Because this movie was a big movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Witness and Top Gun and back to back years is nuts.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Yeah. But even this thing was like, who's the newcomer? She was like waitressing five months before.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is one of my favorite anecdotes that I was not aware of before prepping for this pod where, you know, she's like, yeah, I was working at the coffee shop. Peter Weir. It's hysterical to listen to him talk about how impossible it was to try to find Rachel.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's like, basically, all of the American actresses we looked at were, like, too hip. They were too knowing. He asked the casting director to start looking in Italy.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then they found. They found Kelly McGillis, and she's like, yeah. I was working at a coffee shop and like, Harrison Ford and Peter. We walked in and everyone who was there was like, that's fucking Harrison Ford.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

What's happening? Like, imagine that being a thing that happened in your life.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And then she's filming a movie with them. So you have her. You have evil Danny Glover.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Which is so funny. You know, he's Lethal Weapon. Took over his life and he made a bunch of great stuff. Everybody loves Danny Glover. They evil Danny Glover. I could have explored in a couple more movies.

[Mallory Rubin]

Definitely. One of the, like, quietly great moments in the movie because it's so sinister and borderline maniacal is when he stops to wash his hands. It's like you have murdered someone in a public place.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Get out of there. But he's like, nope.

[Bill Simmons]

He had time.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tidy up, wash up. There's something very insidious about that moment.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Goodnev, who then. Then becomes Hans Gruber's right hand guy. And Die Hard to the completely different role characters you could have played.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Awesome, charismatic henchmen. And then this movie is all back. Vigo. They made a big deal in all the research stuff that it was Vegas first movie. He's barely in it. He's got, like, two lines.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, he's barely handsome, though. He looks great. It is to me, like, as obviously a Lord of the Rings. Obsessive. And the Peter Jackson. Lord of the Rings films are like sacred texts in my life, as you know, seeing those. We need to stop the pods. Chris, can you power down?

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't realize he was in those.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. The alternate history.

[Bill Simmons]

All of them are. Just one of them.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's Aragorn. God damn it. The alternate history, he's like, yeah, I almost picked, like, playing a soldier in Henry V and Shakespeare in the park, but then I did this instead and decided to be a movie actor. It's like, who would have played Aragorn if.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Viggo Mortensen had not been in this movie? Are you doing this just to hurt me? The thing is, I actually believe that it's possible that you don't know who Aragorn is. Have you seen the Lord of the Rings movies. You've seen them.

[Bill Simmons]

I have not.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are you serious?

[Bill Simmons]

I haven't. Didn't see him. I thought I would watch him someday with my kids, and then my kids didn't care. So I don't know who. Who's left?

[Mallory Rubin]

Am I not one of your children?

[Bill Simmons]

Adopt a child of the Rings with me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what? If we're gonna try to go for 500 movies, I guess I'm gonna have to watch it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great. Eventually. Next year. Joanna and I have some plans for House of R, but great moment for you to dip in next year. 25 years since fellowship.

[Bill Simmons]

We could do Gun to My Head Month, where it's four movies I never wanted to watch. And then Lord of the Rings.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, well, it wouldn't be a gun. It would be Aragorn. A Broken Blade. But that just shows me that you haven't watched Sean.

[Bill Simmons]

I knew Sean Astin was in it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. He's not just in it. He's Samwise fucking Gamgee.

[Bill Simmons]

You're Elijah woods in it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. He's Frodo.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You ever heard of Frodo?

[Bill Simmons]

That's all I knew. I knew those two were in it. I didn't know about Viggo.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is very painful for me.

[Bill Simmons]

The screenplay by William Kelly and Earl W. Wallace, which may or not be fake names. I don't know. Those are, like, screenwriter names you'd create if you were doing it. But it was an unproduced Gunsmokes script, and then nobody wanted to make this movie forever. And then they finally made it, which is wild.

[Mallory Rubin]

And one of the things that's, like, genuinely, I think, pretty interesting about the.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, it's the Amish. I don't think it's wild at all, but it's.

[Mallory Rubin]

But you hear. That's what I was actually just gonna say. It's like you kind of hear both things. Like, some of the directors have turned it down. Like it's just another cop mo. Which is objective.

[Bill Simmons]

Definitely not.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not true. And then, yeah, like Fox. Right. Passing on it because they didn't think they wanted to, like, focus on, like, rural films and Amish culture. And it's like you hear kind of both sides of it.

[Bill Simmons]

I disagree with it, but I get it. That a studio would be like, yeah, Amish. Staying away. But finally, somebody didn't stay away. Eight Oscar nominations, including best picture, best actor. 12 million dollar budget made 117.1 million dollars, which is really solid.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And it was, like, the fifth week that it was in theaters that it became the Number one movie. So you. I mean, positive buzz, well reviewed, word of mouth. Like, it's sticking out, like, I'm gonna go see Witness.

[Bill Simmons]

We talk about that sometimes when that just doesn't happen anymore.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

No movie would come out and not be number one for a couple weeks.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

But that was the. That was the era. Rod Dre Ebert loved it. Four stars. He called it an electrifying and poignant love story.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's correct. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

He said, witness arrives like a fresh new day. He crushed all the terrible movies that were out and they said, witness arrives like a fresh new day. A movie about adults whose lives have dignity and whose choices matter to them. And it's also one hell of a thriller. Then he also said, you, guy. Harrison Ford had never given a better performance in a movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that's true. And I say that as leading Han Solo and Indiana Jones enthusiast.

[Bill Simmons]

I wonder what Harrison Ford would say. I wonder if anyone's ever actually asked.

[Mallory Rubin]

Him what his favorite performance is or which. What he's like most.

[Bill Simmons]

What was your best performance? If you. If you'd won an Oscar, what should it have been for?

[Mallory Rubin]

He would. I think he would pick this or something in this mold. And I don't think he would pick one of his genre movies. I think he's like, you don't think.

[Bill Simmons]

He'D be K19, Widowmaker? It's possible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Some frankly astonishing accent work in that film. Entirely possible.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know if that movie's making on the Rewatchables. Let's do Bad Accent month.

[Mallory Rubin]

What about when you hit the 600s?

[Bill Simmons]

Like 600, maybe? I do think Patriot Games was good. I mean, and it's a movie that's not really on anymore. I don't know what happened to it. I mean, I'm sure it's on streaming somewhere, but really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think clearing present dangers is better.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but he's.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's a great Jack.

[Bill Simmons]

I like both of them.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's a great Jack Ryan.

[Bill Simmons]

We're taking a break and then we'll do most rewatchable scenes. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Having the right people in your corner make all the difference. Just think of all the people we cycle in and out as co hosts here on the Rewatchables. I send texts. Hey, you like this movie? Hey, you like that movie? All of a sudden Van Lathan's like, I love that movie. Chris Ryan's like, I love that movie. And by the way, can we do Hunt for Red October again? Like those people, State Farm Is there to help you choose the coverage you need. With so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you. Go [e-mail] or use the award winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right. Most rewatchable scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, can we just go through every single frame of the movie?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to try not to do that. But I did have 10 things marked and I did really enjoy all the Amish stuff and the travel stuff in the first 10 minutes.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

I like when he gets on the train. I just like all of it. And I think we didn't mention. We should have mentioned him earlier, but Lucas has as Samuel. It's just a great little kid performance.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's one of the best.

[Bill Simmons]

I continue to think little kid Oscar should be an Oscar every year. Like he would. He would 10 or under. Every year. We should commemorate who the best little kid performance was. He's. I like all his facial expressions. You know him right away. I like how wide out he is looking out the window in the train. I love how he handles the train murder in the bathroom. Like he's just crushing it.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's fantastic. He's really incredible throughout the movie. I think that, you know, we'll get to these scenes now, but the, the eyes, like the amount that he can express just by gazing, staring.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a stare through your soul kind of little kid, really. Which is weird. It doesn't work as well when you become an adult actor because his adult career.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we'll talk about some of the stuff that happened with him, which is great. But I mean, but when you start to, you know, when you stare into somebody's soul as an adult, it becomes maybe more creepy than when you were eight.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. But he is for me, no matter what. To this day, I see him in something and I'm like, it's Samuel from Witness. Like when he's. He's in and I'm like, it's Samuel from Witness.

[Bill Simmons]

Patrick Fugitt is like, it's Liam Miller. I can't. He's in like We Bought a Zoo. And it's like, that's William Miller.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, definitely.

[Bill Simmons]

Samuel sees a murder.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is just an incredible bit of filmmaking. This is great.

[Bill Simmons]

The toilet switch.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

This could also go on what stage? The best for me. But when somebody witnesses something in the toilet and then people wonder if they're there and they go stall by stall and you have to It's a great. What would I do in this situation?

[Mallory Rubin]

As you're watching it, I do have. I have very few picking knits on this movie, which I think is incredible and impeccable. I have a couple actually on that front that we'll get to later. I'll save them for that category broadly. The scene is amazing. The suspense and tension.

[Bill Simmons]

The.

[Mallory Rubin]

The shirt wrapped around the head. You flash the knife before you know what's going to happen. You cut to Samuel's eyes through the door. The throat slice. You cut to Samuel's eyes through the door with the. His, like tiny. His hands are like. We know he's a young kid, but you see his little hands go to close the lot, like slide the lock and you're just like. This is like a baby.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like he's so tiny and then you're so scared for him. And of course, you have the added brilliant Little Chef's kiss touch of the Indiana Jones homage by reaching for the hat, which is just like they're already killing it. I did love it on top. It's just great stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Now, if they had this scene, he would be on his iPad. He would have missed a murderer taking.

[Mallory Rubin]

A scrolling on peeing.

[Bill Simmons]

While watching like Blues Clues, Samuel notices the Danny Glover photo which we discussed earlier, is a classic. Good Harrison Ford's face.

[Mallory Rubin]

Unbelievable.

[Bill Simmons]

The slow mo walk.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Pulling the finger down, just no notes.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love the like kind of almost magnetic pole across the room.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like. And it. It does actually slow down. The sound is kind of sucked out of the scene. It does actually go into slow mo. But there are a couple and very different moods in these scenes. But a couple moments in the movie where like, people basically feel like they are in a trance of some sort and it's totally hypnotic. Then when you watch it, you have the same feeling as a viewer that the character has in that moment. That's really one of them. And I love the way that even though they've only been in each other's lives briefly, you have something like you're coming off the very cute little hot dog lunch, you know. Right. Right before this. And like it's. It's the fact that there's kind of a shorthand. Right. Like he. There's only one book knows. He doesn't know what he's seen, but he knows what he has seen.

[Bill Simmons]

He knows something.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's communicating. And it's just very potent. Really good.

[Bill Simmons]

The. The shootout, the blood reveal and the driving exit. That whole part. The. Yeah, I love a good blood reveal. It's like, oh, my God, I didn't get shot.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, blood drips.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gotta pick up the dry cleaning. Drip, drip, drip.

[Bill Simmons]

The Glover showing up at him immediately recognized. And just, like, everything about the look on Glover's face, everything about that scene's really. It's really, like, smart thriller action shit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Also, like, this is kind of a. Because it's a serious movie. It's a gentle movie. It's an underrated, I think, comic movie. There's like, obviously a lot of the humor.

[Bill Simmons]

Other people in the outfit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, A lot of the humor across the film comes from, like, culture clash stuff. But the. The woman in the elevator is like. There's an active shootout and she opens the doors again is like, wait, that's my car. And I love the way that Harrison Ford, who's so measured through most of the film, is just like, you idiot.

[Bill Simmons]

Right? Yeah, he's a good, like, immediately snap.

[Mallory Rubin]

So good.

[Bill Simmons]

I got the old Amish guy, our guy, Eli. Eli explaining to Samuel why guns are bad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wait, you didn't. You're skipping the whole, like, Rachel nursing book, back to health stretch. I guess that's less of a scene and more like videos, but. Okay, we'll come back to that.

[Bill Simmons]

I was trying to narrow it down to 10 scenes.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, well, we'll be coming back to that momentarily. Eli, put a pin in it.

[Bill Simmons]

Only God can take life. There's never only one way.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love that.

[Bill Simmons]

It's gorgeous what you take into your hands. You take into your heart.

[Mallory Rubin]

Into your heart. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That's how I felt about my IBM ThinkPad back when my fingers wrote.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

When you opened your hand, every word.

[Mallory Rubin]

I typed into your heart.

[Bill Simmons]

Right into my heart.

[Mallory Rubin]

The gun of the hand, the keys of the hand. I assume that this was not what you were thinking of because, as recently established mere moments ago, you're not a Lord of the Rings enthusiast. But this is like, the most Frodo Gandalf coded conversation in, like, the history of movies. Like, many live deserve death. Many who die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be too quick to deal out death and judgment. Even the wisest cannot see all ends. No, you're not familiar. Well, that's basically what this is.

[Bill Simmons]

That sounds like. There's never only one way.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's true.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe. Maybe Eli had it better.

[Mallory Rubin]

Keep it in mind if you like good character. Opera singer. Canadian opera singer.

[Bill Simmons]

Your favorite scene book. And Rachel dancing in the barn.

[Mallory Rubin]

You skip the milking. All right, we've got it. We're hitting some.

[Bill Simmons]

We're put the milking. What stage? The best. Look. Okay. All right. I could have listed the whole movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fair enough. Okay. I don't want to. Yes. I don't want to interrupt discussing the barn scene, which is the most important scene in the history of film.

[Bill Simmons]

She broke the rule of the Ordnong. That's another thing I like about this movie. And when there's weird phrases and words, but they're. They're, well, laws and. But we don't know what they are. It's like, oh, shit. She broke the rule of the Ordnonger language.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, they're speaking. Yeah, they're speaking the trouble. Yeah. Where. When do we want to talk about this scene in more detail here? Later.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It also gets the Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness award because it's the only scene with music. But.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, absolutely. This is a fantastic, fantastic needle drop.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Listen, it's on. There's some. There's some consummation, not some actual consummation. So she didn't get to join the Nine Time Club.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not yet. She's gotta wait for that. Sometimes it's hard. We have more scenes to go through. Sometimes it's hard to decide. Okay. I love a lot of these scenes, and I do love a lot of scenes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

What is the pick for most rewatchable scenes?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I knew this would be your.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is the ease. And we've done. You've done a ton of pods. I've had the privilege of joining you for the couple dozen rewatchables over the years. This is the single easiest category pick for me in any of the pods we've ever done.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Mallory Rubin]

This as the most rewatchable scene because it is maybe my favorite scene in a movie ever. I texted you last night. Including, like, illustrating, videotaping.

[Bill Simmons]

The same different years.

[Mallory Rubin]

How many different times on my camera roll. I have just filmed my TV while this scene is on. Like, I don't know why I do that.

[Bill Simmons]

I could just go to YouTube lunatics.

[Mallory Rubin]

Or, like, put in the DVD, of which I have multiple copies. Like, I don't know why I feel compelled to, like, film it on my phone, but then I can just look at it. We haven't actually talked about this very much yet, but I think one of the things that makes it such a beautiful film and one of the reasons it's my favorite genuinely is like, I think that this is a masterpiece. It's like a. A portrait of desire. Right. This movie is about yearning. It's about something that you want, but you don't know if you should have it. And there is not a scene in. There are plenty of scenes in this film where that desire is palpable. We'll talk about some of. Some of them elsewhere. But, like, this is the ultimate encapsulation of that. The fact that, like, the music is playing because he gets the car battery going and it's not supposed to be. So that's ultimately why Eli comes up. It gives us that framework of just like these people are from a different world. You can't forget that this is another moment where you have that kind of trance, like. Like the camera swings from book to Rachel. The lighting is different her than it is from him. And she's just, like, utterly absorbed and swept up. How could you not be? If Harrison Ford was, like, wrapping you in his arms and singing. Yeah, I think you would just orgasm and die, basically. I think that's how it would go. Right? I don't know. Probably loved learning and researching for the pod that he picked the song. I had not known that that was not a thing.

[Bill Simmons]

I knew they couldn't get the rights.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's not Sam Cooke. It's a cover. But still, when he. When the music kicks in and he's like, oh, yeah, this is great. And then he stands up and he looks over the roof of the car and he's drumming, and then he kind of turns his head and he just stares at her for a second. That taught me what sex was, even though it's not a sex scene. Like, it is just unbelievably powerful and incredible. And they look great and it's awkward, it's clumsy. There are moments where you think they're gonna kiss and then they don't. There are moments when they're kiss giggling, they're dripping in sweat because the barn is hot. It's just absolute perfection. Gorgeous and just looks so good.

[Bill Simmons]

It led to a possible shunning of her.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Eli's like, you're gonna get shunned.

[Bill Simmons]

Shunning.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't shame me. And she says, you shame yourself, big guy. Let me fuck Harrison Ford.

[Bill Simmons]

I like the whole concept of shunning. What? Game of Thrones. What was the. What did they call it in Game of Thrones?

[Mallory Rubin]

Shunning.

[Bill Simmons]

No, the what? When she had to do the walk of shame.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, the walk of shame. Cersei's walk of shame. Mother's mercy. Shame, shame, shame. The shame bell.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to talk of atonement. I'm going to talk to Spotify. HR you want to do A Walk of Atonement. No. See, if shunning can come back as part of the HR value, I do.

[Mallory Rubin]

Think they would have some valuation. Yeah. And incorporating the Walk of Atonement, we.

[Bill Simmons]

Need to put a shunning in.

[Mallory Rubin]

What's your Sept. Of Baylor and what's your red Keep in that scenario? I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

This scene's really good. I. I put the barn raising in there because, of course, for some reason, it's riveting.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's. It's.

[Bill Simmons]

It shouldn't be a good scene. It should be the scene where you go to, like, a popcorn or pee.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

And yet. And plus, it feels. Harrison Ford, former carpenter. It feels like he's really like, no, no, guys, I got this.

[Mallory Rubin]

That. Making Samuel, the wooden toy, fixing the birdhouse. All of the. The little nods and wings to his history as a carpenter. Great stuff. Daniel, in the beginning of that scene, like, how's your hole? About his gunshot. When how's your hole? Kills me and makes me laugh. And he's like, yeah, it's good. The whole. The hole's good. My host, let me tell you about Rachel's holes. You know, I'm about to do some exploring, and then Daniel's like, you should just fucking go. Then if you're healed and you're fine, get out of here.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, three parts milk, two parts linseed oil, and some shitty tea. Pack up, let's go. I'm trying to move in. But then when they start to build this thing together, even Daniel, like, when they share the lemonade, Daniel passes book. The lemonade. Like he has been absorbed into the community. But then to your point from earlier, we shift into the lunch break. And Rachel, the fact that, like, for us, it's wonderful for Eli, for Daniel, for everyone else, the audacity that she pours books. Drink first, right? And then you have the great little, like, needlepoint moment with the woman who's like. A lot of talk.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Group chats are buzzing with talk about you.

[Bill Simmons]

And that's like, your mom, totally, Mallory. A lot of talk. People talking in the family right now.

[Mallory Rubin]

A lot of talk. So that scene is just beautiful. And, like, it is such a. It's such a great portrait of community. Much like at the end when Samuel, you know, rings the bell and everybody actually does come. Like, it's important to understand what life would be. We have moments where Rachel's like, you know, people come in and they, like, want to take our pictures, and they just walk in our yard and it's fucking rude, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then you see, like, whether you would ever want to live this way, or you agree with this way of life, or you're a pacifist or whatever, you're religious. Any of it. It's like you see something in that moment that is beautiful. Right. And you understand why it's valuable to them.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, they got married. Time to build. Time for everybody to chip in. Build them a barn.

[Mallory Rubin]

Need a barn, man. They need a barn.

[Bill Simmons]

My next scene is. I just wrote down spongebob Stare down, which is apparently a great porn search.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was afraid to Google.

[Bill Simmons]

Sponge bath. Stare down.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sponge. Just sponge bass scenes and movies on my computer.

[Bill Simmons]

Like a media virus.

[Mallory Rubin]

I did it on my phone. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Good acting here by Harrison Ford as well.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, this is a. This is another.

[Bill Simmons]

I really want to step in here, but just so you know, I can't. Something to look away.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is a great part of the movie, the way that it starts with, you know, the lightning strike in the sky. Like, literally the crackle of electricity in the air. Right. He's on the porch. He's on the swing, looking through the glass chamber.

[Bill Simmons]

She sees him pour in the hot water. Yeah. It's like she likes pregame warmups.

[Mallory Rubin]

Meets his eye as she's passing through. It's an invitation.

[Bill Simmons]

She's working the speed bag a little bit, getting a sweat going, doing the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Lunges, stretches, getting limber, getting ready, hydrating. It's crucial. And you know the fact that, like, she's left the door open, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

She wants him to see her. And the first glimpse, he's in the mirror and the way that she turns and just, like, you know, here I am. Right. And I have decided I'm not going to let Eli or anybody else tell me, like, what is right for me, what I can and cannot do. There's a defiance, but also like a confidence. And of course, it's very sexy. And he is like. Like, this is basically, like, I don't know what to do. He has this look of incredible yearning and lust and desire on his face. But also then he. That moment where he looks down, it's like she's consumed by.

[Bill Simmons]

He's looking at his boner.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, yeah. He's like. When she said. When you said earlier that you would, like, let out my trousers. I know you meant the extra hem on the bottom, but I could use a little more room in the crotch.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm packing something that Jacob wasn't.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, if we could get on that, that would be Helpful, but, like, he's consumed by doubt in that moment in a way that she actually isn't, which is.

[Bill Simmons]

Could that be a rewatchable character? The category, the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

The Amish Rachel.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm asking for it. And I don't know how to make it any more clear. Stare down.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incorporate it from this pod forward.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, that's that. That's that stare of like, come on. Yeah, let's go.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep. Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the crowd is in their seats. Let's start.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're ready.

[Bill Simmons]

The clock's on.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're ready. And then you, like, see him alone in his room, you know, sitting on the bed, looking out the window. Presumably when we cut away. Frantically, feverishly. Jerking off.

[Bill Simmons]

No question. Masturbation. Yeah. Probably loudly.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I mean, I.

[Bill Simmons]

He probably was dealing with a shunning the next day. Book kicks the bully's ass. I like, this is the corniest 80s scene in the movie where we just had scenes like this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I still like when he punches the guy.

[Mallory Rubin]

And it's right on the heels of, like, he's learned that his partner has been killed. He's called Schaefer. That film called is great.

[Bill Simmons]

He's a little angry.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff. And I like when he's like, you know, the. Eli's like, this isn't our way. And he's like, but it's my way.

[Bill Simmons]

It's my way.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great.

[Bill Simmons]

Bad guys show up.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Samuel doing the runaway. Stop.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're skipping the kiss.

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to get to the kiss later.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

It's different category.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Samuel running away but then stopping.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

We get cows. It's a chase scene, but cows, like, really involved. For real.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

We get a corn murder.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. The corn silo.

[Bill Simmons]

Danny Glover gets it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Samuel rings the bell.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

And then. And then our guy, the bad guy. A little moral reckoning for him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Unusual movie choice for the. This is where the guy usually shoots himself in the head.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Or he gets shot because he's holding a hostage.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's just like, yeah, what happened to me? Yeah. And he just sinks to the ground. He's like, God, I got. Just take me away. Well, like, we see him in the car in the next scene. He's kind of stealth in there. Harrison Ford is in the back seat. Just like, I can't believe I'm going to jail.

[Mallory Rubin]

That Earl. The phone call in the prior sequence where Book is like, you know, you lost the way, like, kind of calling back to this lesson that clearly Paul had been the one to impart on book in the first place. That was really interesting. The whole final sequence from the moment like the car inches up the drive and then recedes from view. And you just hear the sound of the tires on the pavement. Like it is just so good. The corn silo. To me, Fergie suffocating to death in the corn silo. That is like a really iconic movie death. That's like just so. I think the way that they use.

[Bill Simmons]

It's an all timer.

[Mallory Rubin]

The using the setting in a way that makes sense. Right? Like they.

[Bill Simmons]

I do have a spot. I had this for picking it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Now tell me.

[Bill Simmons]

Not sure. You'd die.

[Mallory Rubin]

You don't. You would suffocate.

[Bill Simmons]

You just gotta stay above the corn.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's. I think the thing is that it's like. It's less. I mean ultimately he is buried by the corn, but I think it's less that and more that just the air. He can't breathe the air when he's trying to get a breath.

[Bill Simmons]

Corn air. So it's like the two.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's like all the fibers.

[Bill Simmons]

Because the other day that's like this hand that rocks the cradle. And Julianne Moore, the. The Rebecca De Mornay rigs the glass house. Whatever those called. The greenhouse.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, the greenhouse. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And all the glass breaks on her. She's like, ah. And it just somehow dies. It's like, would you die? Or like.

[Mallory Rubin]

But there's no way out. And the air is not breathable. And it's falling. The corn is falling for so long. I buy it. I believe.

[Bill Simmons]

I think you would die.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, I would. I. I would be.

[Bill Simmons]

The moment the air got weird. I think the corn air you. It's like some new form of coke. You get corn coverage.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's like 3 degrees north of like my ideal temperature in here. And I'm about to die just from this. A corn silo. I'd be. It's a. It's a wrap. But one of the great little like nuts.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm gonna fix that as we're talking.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great.

[Bill Simmons]

My fancy controls.

[Mallory Rubin]

Look at this. I did. Had I but known, I would have asked an hour ago. The. I loved learning that McPhee was supposed to be killed by a mule. He was like. So it was going to be farm death after farm death. And then Harrison Ford is like, no, I'm going to shoot this guy. Like, I didn't come all this way to not shoot this guy. But I like that we got both. I like that we got Book having to basically like no functional fixedness. He had to innovate, he had to use his surroundings. He had to use what he had learned. You know, there's a scene earlier where Samuel takes him the beautiful little scene with the kittens, and they're down in the grand. He's, like, learned about the farm. He spent time milking and learning about the way of life. And he knows he's hiding, but also he's like, wait, I can, like, like, lure him in by dropping the corn and do this. And then it's like, I'm gonna go and dig out the shotgun. He learned McPhee.

[Bill Simmons]

He learned some Amish skills.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

He used his things. All right, so you have the barn scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, that's.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I left out the farewells with the goodbye Jumbo. But we talked about that already.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a beautiful one. Okay, so you didn't have the fish, as you want to talk about elsewhere. You didn't have milking, which is sad, but. Well, we have another opportunity to talk about. You never had your hands on a teat before, not one this big.

[Bill Simmons]

We will.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, great. As long as that's gonna come up again, I'm content.

[Bill Simmons]

I. I'm going Hot take. I really like the bad guys showing up as my favorite part of the movie. It's like the.

[Mallory Rubin]

The final shootout.

[Bill Simmons]

I just. I love the corn.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's great.

[Bill Simmons]

I like how Weir films everything. I like how you always know where we are. I like how they use Samuel as, like, oh, God. You just assume he's just gonna wander back in and get shot. Yeah, Yeah. I just think it's a really fun. All of a sudden, it's a thriller again, out of nowhere.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, I love you.

[Bill Simmons]

Calm me down. I'm in my whole Amish world. And. And then at the switch flips again, but in the right ways.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, and you have the moment, too, with the. With the pay phone call where Schaefer's like, we know. We know where you are. But my read on that is they do not. They only learn where after because he punches the townie. And then we see the, like, local guy who's like, this is bad for business. Tell the cops. So that's how they learn. So it's a mistake, ultimately. But Book is leaving. Like, he is leaving. He's said his goodbyes. They've had their final night, which I guess we'll talk about elsewhere. And the fact that it's such a near. Like, the fact that that almost didn't happen, that confrontation in that place, in that way, but they. They made it there. Just in time to challenge him. It's really good. I like to.

[Bill Simmons]

When notice how it's getting colder in here.

[Mallory Rubin]

It. I'm. It's feels great. Schaefer taking Rachel hostage. And I love the, like, the. The little moment there where Schaefer and Book are just screaming at each other.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Like, let her go, Paul. Harrison Ford's really good at. When he's angry, you really feel like he's actually angry.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really great. I can't believe you're not picking the Wonderful World barn dance. I can't believe it.

[Bill Simmons]

You know why? You know, I'm not picking it because I'm a man.

[Mallory Rubin]

And men don't like.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's a scene for you and my wife. My. It's my wife's favorite scene too.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would expect so. Because she's a woman of taste.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the most 1985 thing about this movie?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So Book makes a honey that's great coffee joke, which I think was an ad back then, but I couldn't find the ad folgers.

[Mallory Rubin]

And apparently Harrison Ford wanted to do this because he had gone out for that commercial. And so it was like a little bit of a nod to a commercial.

[Bill Simmons]

That he couldn't in 2025. That joke makes no sense.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great moment, though, because they're like, we don't know what you're talking about because we don't have a tv, so we don't watch commercials. Perfect. And he's also just very charming as a coffee salesman. My two nominees for this are. And I think ultimately the 84 thing about the movie. 85 thing about the movie, filmed, released, is kind of hard because, like, everything in Amish country is a time capsule of a different moment.

[Bill Simmons]

I have an answer I didn't give you yet. What were your two.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, my two. My two nominees for you are either just Elaine, Book, the sister character, Full Stop. Like, everything. The mullet, she's in a bathrobe. And basically every scene, I have a.

[Bill Simmons]

Guy home, guy over.

[Mallory Rubin]

You got a man in the house and the kids are upse upstairs. There's a deleted scene where her kids are with Samuel at the kitchen table and they. They show him Donkey Kong. He gets to play Donkey Kong and.

[Bill Simmons]

It'S like, oh, that would have been.

[Mallory Rubin]

Night Count, Chocula, Sun Kiss, can, all of that. So it's either that or the fact that Book calls Carter and is basically like, get rid of the files. Like, hide the files. And then for the entire movie, Schaefer, McPhee and Fergie can't Find them. Because the address was only written on a piece of paper. Like that just wouldn't happen now. It's in the system. Like it's somewhere. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What's your good candidates? That is not the answer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me.

[Bill Simmons]

So the. The score by Maurice Jerry.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a beautiful score.

[Bill Simmons]

Electronic score.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Which somehow in the Oscar.

[Mallory Rubin]

You don't.

[Bill Simmons]

I just don't think in 2025 that's the score. It feels very 1980s trying to like, oh, look how cutting edge our electronic score is. And now when I hear it, I'm like, that feels like 1985 to me. It just wouldn't be in a movie now. It's weirdly good and completely dated and rooted in the exact era that they made it interesting. You know what I mean?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I like the score. I think it's like very Just wouldn't happen now. Yeah, it puts you in the mood, but yeah, it is. It is of a moment in time.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we have the most important category of this podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm gonna shock you.

[Bill Simmons]

But we have to take a break. This episode is brought to you by Pretty Litter. If you're like me and you track your steps, your sleep, even your screen time, why wouldn't you track your cat's health too? Pretty Litter is like smart tech for your litter box. This color changing litter actually monitors your cat's health by detecting potential issues in their urine, things like ph changes or blood, so you can catch problems early. Plus, Pretty Litter ships free right to your door. So no heavy bags to carry and no last minute pet store runs right now. Save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy at PrettyLater.com Rewatchables Once again, PrettyLitter.com Rewatchables to save 20% on your first order and Get a free cat toy PrettyLitter.com Rewatchable Pretty Litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details. This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout closed guy, but Viori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Viori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to Vuori.com Simmons. And you get 20% off your first purchase with Vuori v u O-R-I.com Simmons. Enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75, plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. All right, I know everyone's on the edge of their seat. Not many people have a category named after them. In the Rewatchables. You have the Mallory Rubin Award for Did this movie need a better sex scene? I can't think of a better movie for this question than Witness. What's the answer?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think I'm about to stun you because my answer to this prompt is almost always yes. Because I don't think you've ever answered no. I like to watch people fuck in movies.

[Bill Simmons]

You've never said no.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that Harrison Ford is the hottest person who's ever lived. He's my number one all timer and I like to watch him have sex in movies. And as we've discussed before on other pods, it's actually really rare for Harrison Ford to have like a graphic sex scene in a movie. Like when he's pumping away and Presumed Innocent, you're like, I don't actually see this a lot. There's a lot of stuff sex in his movies, but not a lot of, like, overt sex scenes. I think the answer to did this movie need a better sex scene? Is no. I think it is a perfect choice. And it's fascinating to learn that the script had a sex scene in it. Obviously they fuck after the kiss. We don't see it. And I think that's the right choice because the movie is, as we have discussed about. It's about the buildup. It's not actually about the. The culmination. It's about the longing and the wanting and the yearning and the craving and the thinking and the wondering. What would it be like? It's about all of the little moments where they're watching either Rachel sponging him or he's watching her sponge herself, or they're dancing in a hot bar and dripping sweat, or she watches him, she hands him the lemonade and he takes it down to one gulp and it's like dribbling down his chin. And she's just like, I need a private moment. That's what it's about. Watching them kiss, I think tells us that watching them fuck is not the point. It's about all of the moments that lead up to it. What do you think?

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's the right answer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There could have been a book solo scene they could add it. That would have been pretty traumatic. They could have a five minute postscript of books back in Philly. And then the movie ends with Alexander Goodenough just having. Having sex. And she's just staring in the ceiling thinking a book.

[Mallory Rubin]

We get a little thought bubble.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That's just the ending looking like book.

[Mallory Rubin]

And a bale of hay. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's the right move.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What stage the best. We mentioned the script and some of the choices, especially last 15 minutes. I'll start here, though. And I know you have a bunch. Try not to have too many. How many do you have?

[Mallory Rubin]

Only a handful.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What stage the best. There's a moment where Harrison Ford's holding a cat. And you held the screenshot. You. You sent the screenshot of that to me yesterday and you said, this picture is the highlight of my life.

[Mallory Rubin]

I believe what I said was, when I die, just assuming I'll be dead before you and you'll be at my funeral.

[Bill Simmons]

Very possible.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's entirely possible. I think it's likely when I die, put this on a tapestry and drape it over my casket.

[Bill Simmons]

Like one of those vinyl. Homemade vinyl posters.

[Mallory Rubin]

Would like you to consider that a formal request. And I would like it to be honored.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you feel like he liked holding the character cat? Was there. Was it a loving hold of the cat?

[Mallory Rubin]

I feel like someone who made the movie was like, we don't have a sex scene, but we should see Harrison Ford stroke a. At some point. You know, we should probably see that.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's find a different way. Get some pussy. I had Dirty Cops.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just in general. In any movie I like, but I like. I like the concept here of they lost the meaning that John Book says.

[Mallory Rubin]

The meaning. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Paul lost the meaning. What do you have? Give me a couple.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. We already talked about just Harrison Ford's 1980s. Just the best decade. And the early 80s, mid-80s, best stretch ever. We already talked about just the restraint in the filmmaking. The focus on the eyes, the faces, the glances, the number of moments. Like one of. An example we haven't talked about yet actually, is when Book wakes up from being nursed and Rachel has kind of fallen asleep. And it's just he's on his side. So it's just one eye looking up from the pillow. It's like we have it with Samuel with what he has witnessed. We have it in all of the looks that pass between Book and Rachel. It's just like, incredible. The portrait of desire and all of the little moments building toward this thing that they know they can't have. I think that the. Something we haven't talked about yet because we didn't really talk about the opening funeral scene in great detail or the nursing scenes is the visual choices with the lighting. John Seale and Peter Weir both talk about how there was literally a Vermeer exhibit at the Philadelphia Museum of Art at the time. So they went to see all these paintings of the Dutch masters and decided to basically light the movie that way. So the number of scenes where you're. It's just. There's just an oil lamp or there's just like a little bit of light coming from the left side through a window. And the way that that sort of heightens the like naturalistic setting and your belief of like where you are there. And also then of course helps to heighten this like clash of big city hotshot cop coming into Amish country. That's all really, really great. I guess. Another thing, we've kind of talked about this, but like the casting. I mean, obviously, like you don't have to be a genius to put Harrison Ford in your movie, but putting him in this role is inspired and obviously and he talks about like I was coming off Temple of Doom, like I wanted to do something different. But the rest of the cast like discovering Kelly McGillis. Lucas Haas is 7 and 8 years old when he's making this movie. Alexander Gutnov is a character and by the way, he could actor and a ballet dancer.

[Bill Simmons]

Lucas Haas could have ruined the movie if he's bad in it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

If we don't like Samuel, the movie falls apart.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. Jan Rubes is a Canadian opera singer. It's like a lot of the people in the movie had basically no experience and they have to share air with the most powerful movie star in the history of the world. Like the fact that that works and is so. The balance and calibration is so expert is like really astonishing.

[Bill Simmons]

I had for what stage the best. The fact that Lucas Haas eventually became the right hand man in Leo's posse.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

Would not have predicted that from the little Amish kid.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, no.

[Bill Simmons]

He was basically the, I don't know, the Scottie Pippen to Leo's mj.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, definitely.

[Bill Simmons]

Or was Tobey Maguire Pippin? Maybe he was Horace Grant.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, he might have been Horace Grant. I think Toby might have been Pippin in that scenario.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's how he had this whole second life as it was like, yeah, Toby, Leo, Lucas Haas. I think Kevin Connolly was in there, a couple others.

[Mallory Rubin]

But yeah, great stuff. Great stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

It's 4:30. Time for milking is just really funny.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sensational. That whole scene is great.

[Bill Simmons]

You've never had your hands on a Te before.

[Mallory Rubin]

That big. And then the Eli.

[Bill Simmons]

The word Te.

[Mallory Rubin]

Te, sure. Yeah, of course. Te. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I like when they call Ford the English.

[Mallory Rubin]

The milking hat.

[Bill Simmons]

Alexander Goodenough. This is a what stage? The best.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Just the Wikipedia deep dive of him. What happened to him?

[Mallory Rubin]

Sad. Yeah, yeah, very sad.

[Bill Simmons]

It was kind of like. So he comes in, he dates Jacqueline Bessette, the single most beautiful woman who ever lived, or at least the top five.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And he's with her for most of the 80s. He's in die Hard, but apparently just had, like, this massive drinking problem. He died really young and died of alcoholism, basically.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very sad.

[Bill Simmons]

Like in his early 40s. But it was a way more interesting 10 minutes than I was expecting. And then no actual Amish were in the film because they do not like to be photographed.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

But yes, they were all at the filming, kind of watching and surveying. But you couldn't film them.

[Mallory Rubin]

I like the little nuggets. Like Peter, we're saying. Yeah, they were watching when. When Harrison Ford punched the town. And they were all like. But like. Yeah, the fact that they had a lot of the extras are Mennonites because they would be willing to participate, but the Amish wouldn't. Was interest.

[Bill Simmons]

What stage? The best. Just them not filming any dialogue with the last scene with book. And Rachel is a what stage? The bester.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's horrible to think about the alternative where they just talk to each other.

[Bill Simmons]

For Big Kahuna Burger Award, best use of food or drink. I mean, this is the corn drop.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah, I guess it is.

[Bill Simmons]

We have a murder with food.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's. You're right.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a lot of other good options, but there is a corn murder.

[Mallory Rubin]

This could be where we talked about the milk scene.

[Bill Simmons]

No, the milk scene's great. But we have a corn murder that has to win.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, you're right. Using corn as a lethal weapon is great shot.

[Bill Simmons]

Gorder award most cinematic shot. I think Sponge bath all the way. They're using the cameras and the mirror and the lighting and. I mean, that would be my vote.

[Mallory Rubin]

Who am I to argue? I think you could pick that. I think you could pick the look that the book gives Rachel from over the. Over the. The roof of the car in the barn. My. This was where I was gonna highlight and toast young Lucas Haas and his eyes. Yeah, I think that. And it's actually, I think, really Fascinating to hear. John Seal basically, like. Because this is I think one of the most like iconic shots in movie history. Just his. Samuel's eyes through the. The crack in the door.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And John Seal, he's basically like, this shot is out of focus. And I never forgot it for my entire career. Like the. The director's always going to pick the best performance, not the crispest shot. And I. And like I took. I left this movie and I was like, every frame has be perfect. Like you can't miss it once. But the. The stories about Peter, we are going to young Lucas Haas and saying because he didn't want him to see the scene, he didn't want to scar him by showing him a fake murder. And so instead he went to him and said, you're letting the movie down. I need more. I need you to imagine the most terrible things that you could possibly think of. Not going to show you a clearly fake murder, but I am going to make sure you're in therapy for the rest of your life by putting the burden of this entire film on your shoulder. So that fear in his eyes is basically because Peter Weir was like, kid, you're going to fuck up the entire movie.

[Bill Simmons]

So when you were 8, that would have been like Cal Ripken getting hurt. What would it have been?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, man. Yeah, that would have been. That would have been.

[Bill Simmons]

I would have been like Bobby or Bobby or tearing his knee again. The chess Rockwell Brocklanders were best character named John Book's pretty good.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's got to be John Book. Perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

I threw in. I didn't tell you this one. The Ed Norton reverse dunk award for did this movie did a random sports scene. Oh, it's only an hour 42. Something like that. Could we have stuck in a little the Amish throwing the football round?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, little. Little.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe Daniel and John Book having a catch and he's like, can't really throw it and Daniel's just whipping. Or maybe there's a touch football game with the Amish are wearing hats.

[Mallory Rubin]

That would be great.

[Bill Simmons]

Or maybe they're just playing dominoes. I don't know. There's something the Amish could be doing. Something fun.

[Mallory Rubin]

I like this. Seeing Book and Samuel Bond tossing around the ball.

[Bill Simmons]

Shuffleboard table.

[Mallory Rubin]

That would have been great.

[Bill Simmons]

I almost just love shuffleboard.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'll take your word for it.

[Bill Simmons]

Darts. Maybe some darts. All right, you have a choice for a flex category. What is it?

[Mallory Rubin]

Chris is not here with us today, and so I have decided to honor him by doing the Sean Penn I brought my own pack award for excellence in on screen smoking. Because the first scene after the climactic shootout and Schaeffer, the book besting Schaeffer. We pan all of these cars, all of these cops, and Harrison Ford, the coolest person who has ever lived effortlessly cool, is just leaning casually against the car smoking.

[Bill Simmons]

And it is firing the lung dart. I did notice that. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is so clearly just Harrison Ford enjoying a cigarette.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And it is perfect. It is perfect. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Butch's girlfriend award for weak link of the film.

[Mallory Rubin]

I had a hard time with this.

[Bill Simmons]

I have one.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me.

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, Rachel, you're a grieving widow. Why does it seem like you're in the stepdad market pretty fast here?

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you grieve your dude for like a month? I mean, this is like, counterpoint. She's on Tinder. Amish Tinder, basically.

[Mallory Rubin]

She's not.

[Bill Simmons]

Daniel's already, like, no lining up. She's giving John book the googly eye.

[Mallory Rubin]

Guys. Yeah. Okay. You're wrong.

[Bill Simmons]

Jacob's in the dirt. Like, I'm not even decomposed yet. What are we doing?

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, here's the counterpoint. Here's why I think you're wrong.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not wrong.

[Mallory Rubin]

She has no interest in Daniel. Daniel. This was one of my picking nits, actually. Is that Daniel literally doesn't even wait until after the funeral. At the funeral. At Jacob's funeral. He's hitting on Rachel. He's putting the moves on Rachel.

[Bill Simmons]

The Amish move fast. You got to be married in the Amish community, apparently.

[Mallory Rubin]

So Rachel is not interested. It is not about her moving on quickly. It is simply that John the. The appeal of Harrison Ford is. Is too. It's impossible to resist.

[Bill Simmons]

I think she's at the stepdad store.

[Mallory Rubin]

She takes off the bonnet, the marital bonnet, specifically, to go hook up with Harrison Ford. She didn't take that bonnet off for Daniel.

[Bill Simmons]

How you feel like Jacob's feeling in the ground?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think he's like, I also would have Harrison Ford. I. It. I get it.

[Bill Simmons]

She could have could had 10 seconds on when Jacob died. It rocked my world.

[Mallory Rubin]

They moved on from Jacob quickly. It's true. You're right.

[Bill Simmons]

She didn't even seem that sad after the funeral. She's like, I'm going to go to the train.

[Mallory Rubin]

Whoa. What do we know?

[Bill Simmons]

Amtrak.

[Mallory Rubin]

What do we know about Jacob? What do we know, really?

[Bill Simmons]

Jacob might have sucked. Did you have a weak link or not?

[Mallory Rubin]

I have one. I didn't feel, like, super strongly about it, but I don't. I Don't know that John Book, a character who I love and think is. I'm not sure if I've mentioned this. Really handsome. I don't know if he is concerned enough, like, appropriately concerned about his partner Carter and his sister Elaine, like, be.

[Bill Simmons]

Just being murdered by people looking, well.

[Mallory Rubin]

McPhee, like, okay, a cop was killed in a train station. Then McPhee comes to him and tries to kill him in the parking. In the parking garage. He knows Schaefer's in it. And when he's on the phone with Carter and he's like, okay, yeah, get rid of the documents. You know, there's. This is like a. This is. Schaefer's in on it. Tell no one. And it's like, what should we do? FBI reporter. And he's like, let me think about it. It's like, book.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

See a little bit of urgency to his sister. Hide my car. It's like, they're probably gonna open the garage.

[Bill Simmons]

The move is to leak to the newspaper, get the story out.

[Mallory Rubin]

He thought. I thought that the ex. The reply to that of, like, they're going to want to talk to Samuel was, like, decent cover, but not whatever. Yeah. He's not concerned enough that these people who he loves are going to have harm befall them, which, of course, course happens.

[Bill Simmons]

What's age the worst? I've never understood the Amish beards. I'm not here to judge facial hair, but just, okay, shaving the mustache, but keeping the beard okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

The good news is, never seen it work. Are going to listen to this and be offended. Definitely not listen.

[Bill Simmons]

They probably don't listen to podcasts. I've just never understood the beard. Nobody's tried it in the NBA. LeBron's not like, here's my. This year, I have an Amish beard. I have no mustache, but I have a thick beard. I just don't get the look.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're growing a summer beard right now. Would this have been your pick if you weren't currently in the midst of beer season?

[Bill Simmons]

I was thinking about shaving it, and I was just going to shave the mustache and come in with the Amish beard.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could have done it. I see buttons on your shirt, so you're not quite plain enough.

[Bill Simmons]

I've just never understood the Amish beards. I have one big one, but do you have any? What stage the worst you love?

[Mallory Rubin]

We already talked about that. I think the Academy Awards results from this year have aged the worst. We talked about that. I think certainly racially profiling T bone has aged the worst. That's terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

I had that in Picket. Nits. But same thing. He brings this poor Amish widow and her traumatized son to some bar in South Philly.

[Mallory Rubin]

Horrible.

[Bill Simmons]

Pulls out a black eye. Is this him?

[Mallory Rubin]

Very bad. Bad. His age. The worst, certainly. Yeah. What else do you have? What's your big one?

[Bill Simmons]

This is the big one.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me.

[Bill Simmons]

The slow motion makeout scene is bad. It's a bad scene and she starts laughing in the middle. And I texted you last night. There's Top Gun, Maverick, Tom Cruise, Jennifer Connelly. Flashbacks.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I obviously, I got. I started dating my wife in 1998. I haven't had a lot of makeout experience with different women since 1998.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I did back in the day. Oh. I don't remember anyone. Well, I don't remember anyone hysterically laughing as I was trying to make out with them. I feel like I would have been completely traumatized. That's like not the reaction you want when you're making out with somebody. Just start laughing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, well, have you considered.

[Bill Simmons]

Very strange.

[Mallory Rubin]

Listen, have you considered.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

That with love and respect. You know, the baby blues. You look great. You're not Harrison Ford. And I just.

[Bill Simmons]

So you think she's like, I can't.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think she's like, this is.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, this is the greatest moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I think it's like.

[Bill Simmons]

So that's why she laughed.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And I think there's. There's something about their kiss that is like almost feral. Right. And I love that it is like a combination of this, like, sorrowful, mournful, like we need. I just think they would have been going out it.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they're just going at it.

[Mallory Rubin]

They are. In the next scene, they're like knocking over all of the. All of the.

[Bill Simmons]

The.

[Mallory Rubin]

The buckets of milk. And in the bar.

[Bill Simmons]

How about this? No more laughing during makeout. First makeout scenes. Hollywood, just get rid of it.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's fair.

[Bill Simmons]

Bits and choice award. Are we sure this character was actually good at his job? John Book.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

What's your plan here?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I mean, of force. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You're hiding in Amish country, endangering everybody there. You're endangering your partner.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You're endangering your sister and her kids.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't have a lot of.

[Bill Simmons]

And you're just like, yeah, I'll help you make this barn today.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. You had to heal us whole.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that lemonade?

[Mallory Rubin]

The lemonade looks great. It looks very refreshing.

[Bill Simmons]

The Ruffalo Hana Rubenic Partridge overacting word I'm going with Eli's overlap after. You've never milked a teep before. And there's a pause and then he's like, ah.

[Mallory Rubin]

How dare you.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'm just throwing it in there.

[Mallory Rubin]

I didn't have one for this.

[Bill Simmons]

Funny.

[Mallory Rubin]

I didn't have one for this. This is a hard one. It's a. It's a very, like, understated.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you have a cr Thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford Hottest Take award?

[Mallory Rubin]

I do. I don't think you're gonna like it.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, let's hear.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, let me see if I can express what I mean here. My hottest take about the movie, despite what we talked about already, is undeniably a thriller. I think it is a western.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is a genre mashup. Fish out of Water, Love Story. I don't think it's really a cop movie. Here's why. It is, of course, a movie that features cops. But the cop plot is, we gotta make Samuel the Witness. We have to imperil Book, Samuel and Rachel. We have to establish Book as this fish out of water in Amish country. But it's much more, like, mechanism and fact than core focus. Like, I don't think the movie is ultimately very interested in. We basically get one brief explanation of, like, what actually happened.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think this is the hottest take because if it was interested in the cops, we would have spent more time in the police station and had one of those, like, police station scenes with people moving around and the sergeant yelling at somebody. It doesn't care about any of that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. I think Peter Weir would, like, agree with this, but I think a lot of people are like, witnesses. Like a cop movie. I'm like, is it. I don't think of it that way.

[Bill Simmons]

No. It's a fish out of water movie. It's like a double. It's a reverse fish out of water. Yeah, like what you said earlier.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right. Tepid take.

[Bill Simmons]

That wasn't tepid. I think you're right. I think people, like. It's like Witness and there's a gun and it's. But you're right, it's not that movie. I think this is Harrison Ford's best part of any party ever played.

[Mallory Rubin]

What do you mean by best part?

[Bill Simmons]

I just think this is the best part. Character role. And I'm putting it above Indiana Jones and hands. Han Solo.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hold on. Best performance or the character is like, the most consequential.

[Bill Simmons]

I just think this had the most meat. I think it's the hardest Party played. Sweats are standing. I think it had the heart. It was the hardest thing to land the plane on. And I think only a couple actors could have played it over the years. I think Redford would have tried, but he wouldn't have had the sexuality. I think Brad Pitt could have done it. I think Leo maybe in like the mid 2000s, late 2000s, possibly.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But for the most part, I think this is a really hard play in the land.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree. I mean, I think. I don't agree necessarily that it's the. That it would be number one on the list, but I agree with everything you said about the part. And I think the performance is great. And I think he is unique.

[Bill Simmons]

How many actors this is in the same movie if they're just the actor in it?

[Mallory Rubin]

You're right. I mean, the number of people who can. And the. The challenge of having in like, a short span of time in the film to look at Rachel during the sponge bath and then when the dirty cops arrive, like, instantly go into action hero mode.

[Bill Simmons]

I have to trust that he's an action hero. I have to trust that.

[Mallory Rubin]

That.

[Bill Simmons]

That he can have this connection with the little kid and with the little kid's mom.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. I think it was a really hard role.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that it's. It's.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he makes it look easy, is my point. And I don't think that's an easy role.

[Mallory Rubin]

I definitely agree with that. My only. I don't disagree with anything you're saying about this role. I would say Russell Crowe is the.

[Bill Simmons]

Other one who could have done it. Russell, proof of Life. Russell Crowe, 100%.

[Mallory Rubin]

He doesn't. Yeah. He's not.

[Bill Simmons]

You're not a proof of life. Right, sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's just not quite the same, like, animal magnetism.

[Bill Simmons]

When you look at Russell Crowe, has it improved left?

[Mallory Rubin]

I guess so, Yeah. I think. Okay, here's my only. Maybe it's not a counterpoint to your argument. I would put like. I would say maybe it's the case to make like John Book, Han Solo and Indiana Jones. Just one A, one B, one C is like, okay, Indiana Jones is. You could argue the most.

[Bill Simmons]

I throw in Kimbo just because I.

[Mallory Rubin]

Think you can make the case and many people have, that Indiana Jones is the most iconic character in movie history. Right, Right. Then I think you would say about Han Solo, he is the. He's at the top of the coaching tree for the rogish scoundrel. And nobody has matched it ever.

[Bill Simmons]

We covered that in our four And a half hour Star wars puzzle.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, get ready to cover. Which is actually Han's movie. Saved it for that.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I saved you for that one.

[Mallory Rubin]

I've, I, I've rare. Everybody who works with you and loves you and cherishes you has a, like, if you do this without me, I will really. I'll tell you I'm okay with it, but I'll carry it to my grave.

[Bill Simmons]

I would never do Empire.

[Mallory Rubin]

Witness was one of them. Empire is one of them. And as you know, Bulderham, which I assume will be our last POD together before we both retire.

[Bill Simmons]

Like in two weeks for me. Casting with baseball season. No. Now I'm energized. I got this new studio.

[Mallory Rubin]

It looks great in here, man.

[Bill Simmons]

Casting.

[Mallory Rubin]

What is. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Redford wanted to be in the movie, approached the producers and they kind of pushed it off because he had the reputation at that point for he would come in, start changing stuff because Robert Redford kind of a dick.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is my favorite thing you do.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not a thing, just a fact. I'm just a student of Hollywood history.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

These guys literally were like, no thanks, Robert Redford. We'd rather, we'd rather find another actor. David Cronenberg turned it down.

[Mallory Rubin]

That would have been. I don't understand.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't understand.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't understand that. As a potential match, Burt Reynolds in.

[Bill Simmons]

His biography said he wanted the lead role but backed off. That would have been terrible. Apparently Isabella Rossellini was offered the lead and said no. I don't know. It's half assed.

[Mallory Rubin]

I, I could see that.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll just read this for you and you decide how you feel. Because he is. We should mention Harrison Ford. Notoriously a little cranky. That's the reputation part of his charm.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

When Feldman and Weir were impressed with McGillis right away, Ford took some convincing. He didn't think she was a good choice for the role and only came around weird. Gently chastised him for not trusting the director's instincts. And then it was like you get a feeling from the research. I don't think that Kelly McGillis and Harrison Ford were like going to Dodger games after this movie. I think it was like, hey, nice working with you. I'll see you later.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. They have such unbelievable chemistry that it's hard for me to imagine that. True, like, but good actors. So is your, is your read on that that that was about her or that it was more of a product of like Harrison Ford being like, why can we not fill any of these other Roles with, like, people who have acted before.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel. I think it was like that. Where do we get this person?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, A lot of, like, people before.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Best that Guy award. So John Buck's partner, he's that guy Carter.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Most famously in another 48 hours, a terrible movie that I've watched like 12 times. He's. He's working for the Iceman. But I just thought that guy's. I don't even know that guy's name. Dan Waiter's award. Evil Danny Glover's eligible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

Just wanted to mention that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. I didn't think he would be eligible. Okay. That's compelling. I. I thought this was an easy one for Patti LuPone as book sister with the mullet. And this is a remarkable use of one of the great theater performers of our time.

[Bill Simmons]

It's weird because she's making movies for a couple years there because she was in that Tom Scared Vigilante movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Recently starred in Agatha All Along, a.

[Bill Simmons]

Wonderful MC show that I knew. It was like, is she trying to be an actor meanwhile? She's one of the great theater people.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. This is just like.

[Bill Simmons]

I vote for evil Danny Glover.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. I do. Like, when Elaine is like, anybody who knows John knows that's a goddamn lie. That's real Dion Waiter stuff to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Recasting couch, Director City.

[Mallory Rubin]

You can't. Where are you going to put this other than here?

[Bill Simmons]

What?

[Mallory Rubin]

You can't put this anywhere other than Lancaster or York. Where could this possibly be?

[Bill Simmons]

What about Roll? Have somebody for Kelly McGillis part.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so if you wanted to go, like, relatively anonymous. I think there's a Gina Davis case.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh.

[Bill Simmons]

She'd really only been in Fletch and was really been in nothing, but it was just a cute, tall brunette with curly hair.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a. I like that.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think. I think she could have been in it.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a good one. I mean, I think Kelly McGillis is great in this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

What about My queen, Michelle Pfeiffer? It's a year after Scarface. No, this does a lot of Michelle Pfeiffer stuff. Or just a lot of, like, staring and longing and faces. I mean, things she's good at. I'm fine with keeping Kelly McGillis. I just want to talk it out.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that, like, when Peter Weir basically says that famous American actresses know too much to be believable as Rachel, he's sort of talking about like, we're fine.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Gina Davis. Maybe that's a good one. I'll quickly rip through Some half asset research.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me.

[Bill Simmons]

I love Ford spent time with Philly PD Homicide. I always love that anecdote in the rewatchables. Like, just how weird that would be for the Phillypedia. Like, see, you know that actor, the Han Solo Han Solo guy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Indiana Jones is in the car tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

He's gonna come with us on a couple.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I like too, that he did the research with the ride alongs with the cops and Kelly McGillis went and, like, lived with an Amish family.

[Bill Simmons]

Lived with an Amish widow and her seven children and learned how to milk cows and practice their dialect.

[Mallory Rubin]

And Harrison Ford is basically like, I didn't do any research on the Amish because book's not supposed to know about them.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Makes sense. But is also to me, very reminiscent of like a young Rupert Grint. Ron Weasley saying, like, alfonso Cuaron asked us to all do homework assignments on our character for Prisoner of Azkaban. And I didn't turn mine in. And then my excuse was, Ron Weasley would not have done his homework.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Using your character as cover for not doing. I love it.

[Bill Simmons]

Hair support is like, I couldn't do research. I was having sex with nine people a day.

[Mallory Rubin]

You try to schedule two research trips when you're fucking nine chicks every Amish.

[Bill Simmons]

Wouldn'T have sex with thing. The. The barn raising scene you mentioned, it was a short paragraph and then they blew it out. But it wasn't supposed to be what that was. So the corn silo death. Yeah, the corn was dropped onto the actor, but there was a scuba diving regulator with an air tank underneath.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is actually like. You hear this and you're like, it's amazing that no one died. That's insane.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's why they used an actor that I don't even know who that actor was. They're like, dude, look, it's 10 chance you're gonna die in this course.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't worry, worry.

[Bill Simmons]

Scuba, tank, scuba there.

[Mallory Rubin]

So that when you're actually about to asphyxiate, you can just reach down the corn, grab it and it'll be fine.

[Bill Simmons]

That guy's now in a wheelchair. The National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom called for a boycott.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

And then our guy Karasawa said Witness is one of his favorite films of all time.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is one of my favorite things I've ever learned.

[Bill Simmons]

Unbelievable.

[Mallory Rubin]

In prepping for Rewatchable.

[Bill Simmons]

What a win for Peter.

[Mallory Rubin]

Weird. Yeah, I mean, like, curse how appraising your movie must be. Like, one of the greatest things that could happen. I don't know. Nothing, I guess. I mean, maybe you go on and make other great movies like Dead Poet Society, but yeah, that was awesome to learn that. I thought that was so cool.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll take one more break and then we'll finish this message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation. It's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply on the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on credit worthiness rates as of July 1, 2025 Terms and [e-mail] all right. Apex Mountain. Yeah, I, I mean, I don't even know the answer for Harrison Ford. It's probably not this. It's.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is tough.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe somewhere in the 80s for him now and I'm not sure definitely this specific. But he does, he has Raiders 2 Temple, Indiana Jones, Temple of Doom.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Jedi has come out 18 months before this. He is. I, I think it actually might be this.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think there's a case because the least competition. Yeah. For all the parts he got nominated for best actor. Like he, he's leveling up in terms of the prestige.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he's the first phone call after this movie for any movie he wants.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

For a couple years there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, so maybe it is this.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could, it's hard to argue against. 8081, 82. Empire, Raiders, Blade Runner. That's just. How does that even happen?

[Bill Simmons]

But if you're talking about most juice.

[Mallory Rubin]

But then you build up toward. And also after doing all those things.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

After being Han Solo and Indiana Jones and Deckard. I got nominated for best actor for playing John Book. And this movie that nobody like everybody passed on and didn't want to make. Got nominated for for eight Oscars and made $117 million. Like because I'm in it.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm a hero for the Amish.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

McGillis. No, it's top Gun.

[Mallory Rubin]

Top Gun. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

For sure it's her. Put on the sunglasses in the elevator. China get frisky for Cruise. We covered that in the Rewatch was a long time ago. One of my favorite re two studios ago.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Great one.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Another life.

[Bill Simmons]

Amish movie characters.

[Mallory Rubin]

I cannot not think of anything else that would be quite. At this level.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's a yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Evil Philly police.

[Mallory Rubin]

Campy.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably campy. But I also couldn't think of another one.

[Mallory Rubin]

Seems impossible.

[Bill Simmons]

How about corn.

[Mallory Rubin]

Silos?

[Bill Simmons]

Apex Mountain for corn. Corn actually murdering somebody with love and.

[Mallory Rubin]

Respect to the Apple TV plus show silo that I do enjoy. It's good certainly for corn silos. I think this is number one.

[Bill Simmons]

Not sure about corn.

[Mallory Rubin]

Spongebob.

[Bill Simmons]

Corn silos. Yeah. Spongebob.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. It's got to be this, right?

[Bill Simmons]

I had some questions about the sponge bath for later, but we can do it now. Tell me, is it. It's just the top of the waist sponge bath. There's not.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I got to be honest.

[Bill Simmons]

Sponge bath were kind of like a full body experience.

[Mallory Rubin]

Questions about that too. Especially like, it's clearly. It's warm, it's sticky, it's sweaty. I think if you're about to be intimate with someone, you'd want to do some rinsing in some other areas. I think that would be my note for Rachel. But, you know, during a sponge bag.

[Bill Simmons]

Top half body, lower half body. I would feel like lower half would be the focal point maybe.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think you do it all ideally.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what I always thought was a sponge. She's like a half bath.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, when she was sponging Book when he was. When he was being nursed, you know, he's got the poultice and the tea and she's dabbing him. That was presumably all above the waist. I don't think she went below the waist.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. How did John Book go to the bathroom? And was there a bedpan? It was questions I didn't even want to do and probably unanswerable questions.

[Mallory Rubin]

And yet here you are.

[Bill Simmons]

Evil Danny glover. Apex Mountain. 100%. Yes. Although I will submit his performance in shooter movie. We've already done in the rewatchables when him and Ned Beatty are both evil.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great one.

[Bill Simmons]

I really. I love evil Danny Glover. Good enough. It's Die Hard.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Lucas Hoss. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Philly train station Movie murders.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's Blowout.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, h. This is good. But I think Blowout's better and uses the station better.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. I do like the, like, trip we take with Samuel through the station. We get to, like, look up at the war memorial. He mistakes the acidic Jew for An Amishman. Like they make good use of the station. They're sitting, they're waiting. They've got to connect on the train to Baltimore. There's a delay, but yeah, it's a crowded field.

[Bill Simmons]

Vgo, it's definitely him playing Oregon. What's the guy's name? Or who's Aragorn?

[Mallory Rubin]

So when I say to you the return of the king, it means nothing at all. Okay. Well, that's a shame.

[Bill Simmons]

Lucas Haas, I think it was. It's this a 2001 Victoria's Secret thing that him and Leo are invited to?

[Mallory Rubin]

That's fair. It could be any. Any pussy poski. Any pussy posse escapade is probably truly his A P apex, but it could be this. What about Peter Weir? That's a hard one.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's Dead Poets.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think so too, because this is his first American movie. So even though this was really successful and well received and heavily nominated, when he then is nominated, what is that, three years, four years later? Four years later, he's nominated again for best director for Dead Poets. That's probably. That's probably.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that movie had. As much as I love Witness, I think Dead Poets has a little more juice. Like just even in the last 35 plus years with the cast it had.

[Mallory Rubin]

And they're both great.

[Bill Simmons]

The meaning for Robin Williams's career. Both of them are great. But I think Dead Poets, it's an interesting one. I think both of them have held up spectacularly well, which is crazy, since the 80s.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Cruiser Hanks.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think you could. You could Cruise could be booked book. I think he could be.

[Bill Simmons]

So I went Hanks for book. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, and I. As you know, I almost always pick Hanks for these. No, I don't think so. What's your case?

[Bill Simmons]

It's a tough one because I don't think either of them. I don't think it's a good role for either. But I think Hanks I could believe more as like a Philly cop.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Chiming in with the Amish thing. I think the way he would have played the longing sex stuff with. With Rachel. I just think he would have done it differently. It wouldn't have been as like primal. It would have been more like the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Counterpoint to Cruise is, of course, while we both love Top Gun, we have seen Tom Cruise and Kelly McGillis.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, so that. That's why I couldn't do it.

[Mallory Rubin]

And we know what that's like.

[Bill Simmons]

So that's why we couldn't do it. We already know that the Chemistry thing was tough with them.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're right. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So, yeah. Scorsese or Spielberg? I. I went with Spielberg.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's Spielberg. I do think the version of this that Scorsese does where he really dials up the, like, neo noir, killer cop aspect is fascinating. Did you see that? He apparently turned this down. Scorsese.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't know whether I should. I thought that that set off my detector.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was interesting to think about. But then when it really sent me down a rabbit hole of. Of exploring was why Martin Scorsese and Harrison Ford have never worked together. Which is crazy. I mean, obviously, like, the Cape Fear, like, alternate history is established.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably a late 70s party incident would be my guess.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. This is why you're you. Yeah, this is why you're you. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Also, he was with Melissa Matheson, who's with Spielberg and Scorsese and Spielberger buddies. There's probably some history. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? It's a tough one.

[Mallory Rubin]

So he's 18 years old in 85. Too young to be one of the cops?

[Bill Simmons]

No, but he could. You could take any age. That's part of the game. You can go old. Philip Seymour Hoffman.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hmm. I could see him. The thing is, there ultimately aren't that many roles of prominence in the movie.

[Bill Simmons]

I was thinking Uncle Eli. Maybe Uncle Eli is not as old and he'd just give him a nice little beard and he's just being Philip sue more often or. Because then you could have had. For the. For the sponge bath dancing scene, he could have been like, yo, Book, how's the peeping? How's the peeping?

[Mallory Rubin]

That would have been good. That would have been great.

[Bill Simmons]

Picking knits. We mentioned grabbing a black suspect out of the bar randomly and ramming him against the car.

[Mallory Rubin]

Genuinely terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

Terrified Amish widow.

[Mallory Rubin]

Terrible.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, so they save his gunshot infection with a poultice.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Three parts milk, two parts linseed oil.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I did. I did some research on this one. It's a little shaky.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I also had underpicking that. Should John Book be alive? Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, or did John Book leave and then got some sort of terrible cancer like, a month later?

[Mallory Rubin]

So the loss of blood alone, you just think he should have died. But the it. And obviously, like, we hear, it's war. He's hot. He's got a fever. It seems like he should have gotten an infection.

[Bill Simmons]

He's talking gibberish.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. He's having fever dreams. Like, he should have probably died from an infection. I think probably. I'm glad he didn't, but he should have.

[Bill Simmons]

They're like, did we. We ran out of linseed oil. You've got to go downtown.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Put that with the milk.

[Mallory Rubin]

Put some more on the cloth. Also, like, I'm glad that everything else that happens in the movie happens, but he got shot. He's, like, building a barn. Mere days.

[Bill Simmons]

He's fine. Yeah. He's throwing punches.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's. I mean, saying he can milk a cow. Sure. But, like, he's hoisting Samuel up an entire level of a barn into the log soft. Doesn't that hurt?

[Bill Simmons]

Amazing recovery. Bullet went right in and out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Bill Simmons]

And I did the corn suffocation thing already. What? Did you have anything else?

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. I do. This is where I don't want to. Like, picnics with the. Samuel witnesses a murder scene because it's iconic, but nobody hears Samuel taking a piss. That makes sense.

[Bill Simmons]

And they don't check the star.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And like, Fergie says, because Samuel has that little kind of like, little chirp he makes. So that. And then McPhee is like. Starts to check the stalls. And Fergie's like, I did that already. But you did it already. But did you. Did you miss the Amish kid taking a piss in an unlocked open stall? And then there's some splashing of the water at the sink. So you think maybe that would cover it. But the cop they kill stops washing his face because he's like, something's happening. And he looks around. There's no sound. They should hear Samuel taking a piss. I don't think that totally.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, to extend that, this kid who has not really seen anything in his life, all of a sudden has the wherewithal to be like, I'm gonna hide. Underside. I like it. I support it, but it could be picked it.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's an interesting one. Like, would you have just kind of almost on, like, a base instinct, would.

[Bill Simmons]

You just be, like, frozen.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Would he actually hide?

[Bill Simmons]

Or does the fact that he hasn't had his brain washed by Tom and Jerry cartoons, Brady Bunch reruns.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That he would actually have a fresh brain to know.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right. Maybe the, like, animal instincts are pure there. That's possible. Here's one for you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

We both really like the parking garage shootout. It's great. However.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

On the picking knits front, two things. One, why does McPhee go alone? He. Why doesn't he bring Fergie? Why don't they go all in on killing book?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, right. Tag team it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Book has gone to Schaefer. And he's like, it's Mc Fee. Okay. He's not here. I can't ask him. He's in Florida on vacation.

[Bill Simmons]

And then obviously, maybe it was bowling night for Fergie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure. You're going after softball game. Captain Detective Captain John Book to preserve your crime. Your PCP crime ring.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. $22 million at stake.

[Mallory Rubin]

22 mil. You have to ensure that he's. He's killed. So this is a two part picking that. Why don't they go in stronger and then what is the explanation excuse for McPhee leaving? That's the only chance they have to get the drop.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a mild picket nit with dirty cops when there's this much money. What do they do with the money?

[Mallory Rubin]

Because this is a great question.

[Bill Simmons]

You'd be like, hey, I just bought this $7 million condo, Lake Arrowhead or something, right? Be like, like, you're police sergeant. How'd you do that? So you basically just have to bury the money.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. You're saving it for retirement.

[Bill Simmons]

Because they cut to Paul's house at one point. He's just like having the cookout with the hot dogs.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nice home back.

[Bill Simmons]

Nice home.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But the $22 billion in PCP, which I guess they're splitting three ways, he's getting at least five, six mil. What do. Do you just have to. Is there a. A time where you're like, when I turn 60, that's when I'm gonna buy. Probably fucking portion.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Maybe they're investing, right? Growing the fortune. They've got some. Like at some point somebody's noticing something hidden away. Yeah, well, somebody did notice something.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Sequel, prequel, prestige. All black cast are untouchable. This is untouchable.

[Mallory Rubin]

Untouchable.

[Bill Simmons]

I. I played it played out in my head like, what a prestige. And I just like, no, this is perfect. We're in and out.

[Mallory Rubin]

And the tension, it would be hard to maintain over a full season. Season. I think it's so perfect. It's just south of two hours. Perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson. No. Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Long legs or Wilford Brimley in the Firm.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think the answer here is obvious.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it Wayne? No.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

You think it's Wayne Jenkins because the Baltimore Philly thing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. The dirty coppering has extended to Baltimore.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, to Wayne Jenkins.

[Mallory Rubin]

They call Wayne in as a reinforcement. Their fellow dirty cop. Wayne is a dirty cop. Their fellow dirty cop. He just gets on the acela Gets on the Amtrak, pops up. I didn't know we were dealing with super milker. Going down to the grain silo. Han. Perfect. Look at you, fucking Amish super cop raising a barn.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, you're right. It's definitely way chickens. Short, short trip for him. Less than an hour and a half, easy. Just one Oscar. Who gets the it?

[Mallory Rubin]

Harrison Ford.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on, I'm going movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do think they should have won best picture for sure. And I think it's sort of silly that it didn't. But over the span of history, the fact that Harrison Ford doesn't have an Oscar is I honestly, I think crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he'll get the honorary Oscar before he. What? How is the old, like 85 now?

[Mallory Rubin]

He's 83.

[Bill Simmons]

83, yeah. Probably an answerable question.

[Mallory Rubin]

He looks great still.

[Bill Simmons]

I have four really good ones for you, but do you have any good ones? I'm happy to power through.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, I have some. I don't know if they're good. I guess you'll be the judge of that. What happened to Jacob? Rachel's basically supposed to be like 28 years old. What happened to Jacob? Did he get kicked by a mule?

[Bill Simmons]

I had that. Then I had the asterisk of. Are we sure Daniel didn't kill Jacob?

[Mallory Rubin]

Love this. Love.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, hey, we were milking the cow, kicked him in the head and now he's dead.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is great.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean it could have been terrible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Could have been illness. Obviously he could have, he could have been sick. But like I like the idea of some sort of farm related incident and that Daniel might have been orchestrating.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the Amish didn't believe in any form of violence. So if Daniel had it in him, I think he punches the bully or something.

[Mallory Rubin]

True, you're right. Daniel's not capable of.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's the, here's the actual answer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe he celebrated it.

[Bill Simmons]

This is, this is a society where you treat a gunshot wound with milk and linseed oil. So Daniel probably got bronchitis and just died.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's entirely possible.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't. They're like, Daniel, no, here's some butter. Put this on your forehead and then stand upside down and the bronchitis will go away.

[Mallory Rubin]

As two people who are often afflicted with bronchitis, maybe we should try it.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean with some linseed oil.

[Mallory Rubin]

The three parts milk, two parts linseed oil. It worked. You know, listen, Kyburn, Jamie Lancer gets his fucking hand chopped off and Kyburn's like, let's boil some wine. And it was fine. It was fine.

[Bill Simmons]

I never liked that that did that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was that hand.

[Bill Simmons]

Did Book. Did Book and Rachel have sex or not?

[Mallory Rubin]

Definitely. This is, I think, canon.

[Bill Simmons]

Definitely.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because there's. It's. It is in the many different featurettes on the dvd. There's. There's a video essay called See if I Can Remember all this. Show Don't Tell. And in that it is explicitly stated that in the screenplay there is a sex scene. So we're just decided not to show it.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

They kiss.

[Bill Simmons]

So apparently it's answerable.

[Mallory Rubin]

On the hill, the inky sky. And then they go. My. I had this on my list, but not did they fuck? My question to you for unanswerable questions is where did they do they. Just right there in the grass, like the dirty. Under the night sky.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably right on top of Jacob's grave. Like, just really ram it up to him. Hey, Jacob, you already bumped out enough.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's entirely possible. I like to think that they.

[Bill Simmons]

They probably went to one of those new barns that weren't done yet. Well, like, hey, there's a barn like five barns down. They're not finished with it yet.

[Mallory Rubin]

I hope they just went to the barn. Where the tension was so palpable during the dance.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a double shunning for her.

[Mallory Rubin]

The car on the hay, on the ladder heading up to the loft on the back of a couch.

[Bill Simmons]

He's gotta have nine different spots.

[Mallory Rubin]

Was Daniel able to ever sexually satisfy Rachel after she had this experience with John Book?

[Bill Simmons]

I did think of that. Well, I said earlier the alternate ending of her just. Yeah, she's always thinking about sex.

[Mallory Rubin]

Always.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I feel bad for Daniel. I do.

[Bill Simmons]

Did Book and Samuel stay in touch?

[Mallory Rubin]

This was one of mine as well. Did they ever see each other again? Again?

[Bill Simmons]

Did he write him a letter? Did he go back?

[Mallory Rubin]

I really hope so.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like Book went back.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think so.

[Bill Simmons]

I think went back to say hi to everybody and.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I think he checked in.

[Bill Simmons]

Daniel probably didn't love it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think he checked in. I think that was probably the end for Daniel and Rachel of their intimate acquaintance as a married couple once Book returned.

[Bill Simmons]

But Book got a letter from Samuel Eli's dad. He got a hangnail and it got infected and he dropped dead because we decided to pour hot butter on it. It got infected. Here's my number one unanswerable question.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Could Mallory Rubin have been Amish?

[Mallory Rubin]

Is John Book there? Because if John Book is there and I can have sex with him in a barn or anywhere, or. The answer is yes.

[Bill Simmons]

John, Book's not there.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm less interested now. I think I'm less interested.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I make the cake place?

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, yeah. I don't think you have tv.

[Mallory Rubin]

I couldn't live without tv.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't. It seems like you do have books.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the food looks extraordinary.

[Mallory Rubin]

The food looks good.

[Bill Simmons]

You're getting all fresh farm tables.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Locally sourced.

[Bill Simmons]

I was checking out some of the food spreads. Just seems like kind of stuff you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Would like butter and like ice cream made from fresh cream. Fresh cream potatoes. Yeah. As you know, I have very healthy person focused on wellness and nutrition. Put heavy whipping cream in my coffee every day. It's delicious. And so I do think in that it's so good.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't really do that, do you?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, I do. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, my Lord.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because I'm out in the wild, I'll get oat milk just to manage the situation. But at home I did have.

[Bill Simmons]

That sounds delicious.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's great. I'd really recommend that. It's really good. So that part is appealing.

[Bill Simmons]

Get rid of half and half for bit. A little like two weeks once, like seven years ago and started doing almond milk in my coffee.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And every day I was just sad the whole day.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's not the same.

[Bill Simmons]

And I was like, you know what? Coffee's the highlight of my day.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Makes me the happiest. I love it. I love having 20 ounces of coffee and going through texts and try it with heavy whipped cream with Theos. And why would I want to make that experience worse?

[Mallory Rubin]

You wouldn't. You shouldn't.

[Bill Simmons]

Heavy whipped cream. That's.

[Mallory Rubin]

Give it a try.

[Bill Simmons]

Really unbelievable.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think that I can. Could deal without, like, I. I don't think I could survive without electricity. Organized religion.

[Bill Simmons]

Not me.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I'm a believer in a nice shower head. You know, I like a nice shower head. Sponge bath. Not really.

[Bill Simmons]

I think the number one thing for me would be the no coffee. That's the immediate deal breaker for me. I could do. I could handle a sponge bass.

[Mallory Rubin]

They have coffee. We got the, like, that's great coffee moment. Right. So they have coffee. They've grow. They're growing crops. They have. They have. They have food.

[Bill Simmons]

But is it like Folgers coffee or like actual, like. Do you think they buy like the.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, you're right. So they do have the coffee.

[Mallory Rubin]

Coffee. You'd be fine on that front. But you couldn't watch sports.

[Bill Simmons]

No sports.

[Mallory Rubin]

Couldn't listen to podcasts. You couldn't Record podcasts.

[Bill Simmons]

No, sports would be a deal breaker.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very tough. Very tough.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I'd probably run out of things to say to people like Daniel after a couple minutes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Same. You can't watch porn. You just have to watch somebody in your house take a sponge bath. That's as good as it gets. I don't know. It's limiting.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, what is minute four of a Daniel conversation looking like? So what'd you do today? We helped Bob built a barn. Oh. How was it? It was good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Same as the last barn. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Went up. Cool. The Zwantne Award for what happened the next day. So she married Daniel.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, not immediately, but the courtship began.

[Bill Simmons]

Titanic level. I had one night with a guy, and it rocked my world to the point where I threw this $2.5 billion necklace in the water. Better?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think so.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that was her version of this.

[Mallory Rubin]

I completely agree. I think that that that moment is occupying a lot of her, her interior life moving forward.

[Bill Simmons]

What piece of memorability would you want or not want from this movie? I had a hard time with this one.

[Mallory Rubin]

This was harder than it typically is for the movies because, like, I'm inclined to say I would pick the sponge that Rachel used to give John bath because, like, it touched him. But do other people know what that is? If they see it on my shelf? Maybe not the milking hat. You know, that could be fun.

[Bill Simmons]

But the Harris support. Amish hat.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, the Amish hat or the milking hat.

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't have any of those.

[Mallory Rubin]

I ultimately went with the birdhouse.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's a really good one because.

[Mallory Rubin]

It'S like a bookend of the film. Crashes into it. He puts it back way better than mine of, like, tearing something down, building it back up. Harrison Ford carpentry. That's my pick.

[Bill Simmons]

That's way better than mine.

[Mallory Rubin]

What was yours?

[Bill Simmons]

Jacob's sad tombstone. No, I didn't have one.

[Mallory Rubin]

The bonnet. Rachel's bonnet. Samuel's wooden toy. You can do the car.

[Bill Simmons]

No, the birdhouse is great. Coach Finstock Award, Best life lesson. There's never only one way.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's what I had. Yeah, Good old Eli.

[Bill Simmons]

What'd you have for best double feature choice?

[Mallory Rubin]

So I would pair this with Mosquito Coast. I think the two Little River Phoenix, the Harrison Ford, Peter Weir team ups in consecutive years. And I think also, like, the character of Ally that Ford plays in Mosquito coast is so distinct from, like, any of his other roles. And it's really like kind of the anthem.

[Bill Simmons]

Even has the longer hair.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. The longer hair I haven't seen in a while. It's good. I watched it. I rewatched it two years ago when I was just basically like mainlining every Harrison Ford movie in anticipation of Dial of Destiny.

[Bill Simmons]

Destiny, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And Mosquito coast is up. But pretty, pretty good movie. Underrated.

[Bill Simmons]

The director is always a fun 2 hours regardless of what the movie is. I like, I like his stuff. Who won the movie? Harrison Ford.

[Mallory Rubin]

Harrison Ford. Correct.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, we don't have Craig this week because he's on vacation.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I want to know what he thinks.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe we'll get it. Maybe. Maybe next one he'll come back.

[Mallory Rubin]

That would be great. You should just text him while he's on vacation and say, Craig, it's 4:30. Time for milking.

[Bill Simmons]

He'll recover. Grab that teat. Thanks to Craig. Anyway, thanks to Chris.

[Mallory Rubin]

Chris, our guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks to Ronick, thanks to Kevin for coming over today and making sure the studio is going good. And then we'll be back with another rewatchables episode next week. This is it. We did witness finally world.

[Mallory Rubin]

An honor, a privilege and shout out.

[Bill Simmons]

To our girl, Joe.

[Mallory Rubin]

Good old Joe. We love Joe. We miss Joe. Joe loves this movie. I know Dobbins loves this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

It's a classic. But this was. It could only be you. We couldn't have more people on this. It had to be your. Your thing.

[Mallory Rubin]

We've been waiting for the Superville.

[Bill Simmons]

Hopefully Harrison Ford hears Mali Rubin.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you.