← The Right Time with Bomani Jones
The Right Time with Bomani Jones
Alexandra Stapleton on Diddy's rise and fall; Breaking down Netflix's "Sean Combs: The Reckoning" | 12.12
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A
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C
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Right time a Wave original. My name is Bomani Jones. Thanks for listening. Wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube, subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. All right, we have got a guest joining us this time. Want to introduce you to her. Her resume is kind of wild, man. We've got. She's the director of the prime video documentary Reggie on Reggie Jackson that I need to see and I have not seen. She also did a documentary series on a book. Well, what was a book called How Music Got Free, which I have read, but I did not know there was a documentary. So I'm really looking forward to check this out. And as is Jermaine to this here program. She's the director of Sean Combs the Reckoning on Netflix, the Diddy documentary. Her name is Alexandria Stapleton. Alexandra, how are you?
- [01:53]
D
I'm great. Thank you for having me.
- [01:54]
C
No thanks. Hey, man, we gotta, you know, whenever we can have Houston people doing, you know, dope things for the city, like, we are totally here for this. We got a hater named Joel who listens to the show, who was gonna be our backup ditty guest. So Houston, Houston is holding this all the way down. But I have so many questions about this documentary. I've talked about it on the show. I recommend to people watch it, check it out. I think it is very interesting. I think the first question I have is really kind of chronologically to me, what I imagine for you is the first step of the process which Is at some point, there's a phone call from 50 Cent who says, I want to do this documentary about this guy that I don't really like that much. And I'm very curious how that goes on your end when you receive this call.
- [02:34]
D
Well, it didn't. It wasn't as fantastical as that. 50 and I had met earlier, actually through Eminem on How Music Got Free. Eminem was a executive producer on that project. And so prior to Cassie's lawsuit dropping, we actually were working on other projects, other documentary projects with G Unit and my company, House of Nonfiction. And so we were developing things. And then the lawsuit dropped, Cassie's lawsuit. And of course, you know, that's the. That went everywhere, you know, rapid pace. We didn't talk about it on that day, but I, you know, just wanted to wrap my head around, you know, is there a story here? I mean, it immediately was very fascinating to me. And then she settled, and then it kind of like the light went out, you know, like, and it was like, wait a minute. You just dropped a bunch of knowledge, a bunch of allegations. And so I just, you know, started trying to find other leads and other ways to potentially look under the hood of that story. And, you know, simultaneously, 50 was public about wanting to do a documentary series or a doc about the same subject matter. So then we. We linked up and spoke about it, and we had a really long conversation. It was actually very. He knows my filmmaking style in that. You know, for me, this was. There was no conversation about, like, how do we create, you know, a BS piece of content just for. For some sort of, you know, like, thing that had nothing to do with the allegations. The goal was to talk about, you know, to talk about the subject matter and to understand and unpack, like, how complex and nuanced and, you know, just. It's. It was going to be a really heavy conversation.
- [04:29]
C
Now, executive producer in this industry is a very broad term. So what was his involvement in the actual production?
- [04:37]
D
Well, you know, he's been really public about that in interviews that we've done together. He was definitely, you know, as we were putting the pieces together, because everyone has to remember, this is before there was any indictment. This is before the raid. This is. This is all that was actually really out there was this lawsuit. So, you know, in trying to talk to people and get people to open up to me, 50s involvement as a figure of the culture and someone who makes a project feel like this is going to go. This isn't just some random filmmaker who's going to Come and collect knowledge and give. Because there was a lot of paranoia in that timeframe where people felt very scared to talk to anybody because they didn't know if what they were saying was going to be confidential or was it going to just be put on social media. So there was a credibility, I think, factor with. With 50 being attached to this. And we both really felt that in telling the story, we didn't want to destroy the culture of hip hop, you know, but through the allegations of one man. So that was one component, you know, and getting certain people to the table. And there's obviously voices in there of people that are. That. That love Sean and are very much, you know, speaking in his defense. So that was not, you know, that really did not have anything to do with 50. And. And then as the project went on, I would share. When I got to Rough Cuts, I would start sharing it with him and would get his feedback. And he's put it out there that we would talk about things. He had feedback and suggestions, and I either adopted it or I didn't. But it was usually more about the filmmaking, not. Let's cut this story point. We never got into conversations about that. It was just like, oh, this part flows. He has a lot of skill. Obviously, he's a man who's been making content for over a decade. And his. His narrative skill, making, you know, what he does in the narrative space is tremendous. And so I think that people forget that he is a really. He's an amazing storyteller in his own right.
- [06:50]
C
Now, this is an ambitious project to jump on for a lot of the reasons that you discussed, but also, as you mentioned, not wanting to make this an attack on the culture of hip hop. But at the same time, the culture of hip hop is a major character in the totality of this. So when you started doing this, did you have an idea in mind about how you wanted to address the culture and the industry surrounding versus just the story from the lawsuit?
- [07:16]
D
Well, you know, whenever I approach a story, there's always the macro and the micro. Like that's always like. I literally usually start with a lisp for each. You know, here's the big context and here's the story of, you know, characters or one character. And. And for this, it was a dance. It was. I only had four hours. And so, of course, when I started this, I. I wanted to go deeper. I wanted to understand, you know, the. The patterns of. Of this type of behavior that. That predate Sean Combs. Because allegations like this don't just start with Sean Combs. This is, you know, there's a lot of history in the music business just as a whole, with, you know, similar allegations and abuses. And so. But, you know, as you start to put something together, you realize, you know, in telling his story and also what was available to me, because there are a lot of people that would not sit with me and I can't just make things up. You know, I can't just like, there's no narrator and I'm not just gonna read from, you know, books or articles. Like, I actually need first hand accounts of things. So I have to kind of pivot as a documentarian as to like making a piece based on the people that are sitting with me. And that is kind of like where you see and how you see the series shaping up. And it very much became more of an intimate portrait about Sean and the ecosystem that he came into, you know, because people also forget that hip hop was a really small community at that time period. Everyone kind of knew each other, especially in the streets of New York, you know. And so. So I just, you know, I used the time that I had with, with four episodes to really make that make sense. And then, so that when you understand what he did in creating Bad Boy, you would have context to that. And then even when we get into, you know, the East Coast, West Coast, I say that like this, right? That you understand that. That for so long, I think that that's always been treated like, oh, LA is a different world, a different, you know, these are people that didn't even know each other. And it was really important for me to break down. No, these, you know, Suge Knight goes all the way back to Uptown. That's where he learns, you know, like, the music business, like, and that these are relationships that go. That were really, really deep.
- [09:42]
C
Yeah. And so in only having four hours and truly covering a span of time, I mean, there's Sean Combs. Life is almost 60 years, but I think it's fair to say we're really talking about a span of 30 years. Is really getting into this. Right. Early 90s, into the early 2000s, only having four episodes and with some pretty, like, clear hallmarks to get to, like, you know, episode two really is largely 1995 to 1996. Right. Like, is that kind of time period. How did you figure out or decide? How do you allocate the time? Because it's not even like you can just say, okay, we've gone this far in time. We stopped the episode. Every episode has to stop. You know, have A have not just a point of stopping, but a stopping point that lets you resume.
- [10:27]
D
I think that, you know, that getting in and out of the hours was less about being measured with the timeline. You know, oh, we did. This is 10 years. This is 10 years, and this will be 10 years or five or whatever. It was more about breaking it down for story, you know, for people to understand the journey of, you know, Sean Combs. And so the first episode is, is sort of like all the way up through, you know, the creation of Bad Boy. And so you're in. You're ending that note with like, okay, we, we tried to, to. To put out there, what did he learn? What did he adopt, you know, what was happening. The fact that he came from party promoting and how he used those skills into, into the label. But along the way, as you're, as we were tracking his, his progress with what he actually did contribute to Hip hop, which is extraordinary. You know, there was also like, kind of like under the hood, what were these allegations that were happening? And I think that when, you know, again starting this with Cassie's lawsuit, I think there were a lot of people that, you know, because this is hitting so many different age groups. So for me, I, I grew up with all this stuff like, but, you know, there's, there's Gen Zers who like, they know Sean Combs just as like making the band. That's. That's where he starts in the story. So I wanted to just kind of go back enough to, to get people to understand sort of like his origin story. But as we're doing that to, to unpack, you know, allegations that were. Were coming out, you know, as I was making it and to, to kind of understand that that that was, it predated Cassie.
- [12:15]
C
So the, what he contributed to Hip hop, I actually think is an interesting part and where I, as I watch it, I kind of go back and forth because I see things that he helped to make bigger. But it feels like to me, at least, and I'm curious your thoughts on this, just about everything that he contributed was something that somebody else had done already.
- [12:33]
D
I mean, you know, that's a way of looking at it. I think it does take a certain, you know, like, it takes a lot of energy to create and to run a record label. I mean, I think we could all, you know, run a business. Like that is a big herculean feat and he was so young to do it, you know what I mean? So I think that just in the creation of that and that's also why Kirk Burrow's story, you know, again, was so important because I think there was a little bit of the myth of, like, he was all by himself. And that was. That also became important, you know, when talking about Bad Boy. Well, it wasn't just Sean Combs, you know, it was, you know, this. This group of women and men because, you know, I mean, they were so young and like. And, like, spirited, you know, and they were really putting their mark, you know, on. On a culture that was still being developed. So, you know, you could take it like that, or you could look at, you know, creating an empire is. That is a part of the work that was needed, you know, to give, to create the vessel, you know, and the machine for all of these things to operate in.
- [13:51]
C
So one of the things that we get to early in this is the infamous celebrity basketball game at CCNY that turned into a disaster with multiple people being trampled. I admit, until the documentary, I don't think I appreciated the magnitude of what a big deal that game was. Like, I'm curious for you if that's one of the things that when you got into this, you were like, oh, I knew this was. I knew this happened, but not necessarily like, I didn't think. I had one rapper who participated in the game hit me up. I was like, oh, wow, he was there. I had somebody else who said this, and it was like. I just thought that this was like those celebrity games when I was in college that would just pop up, and they were just like, oh, okay, it's a celebrity game. And it's the dude who did after 12, before 6, and his partners, and they're playing basketball. This was a thing. Thing in New York City.
- [14:32]
D
Yes. And that's exactly how I felt. I had heard about it, but reading about it or hearing about it or hearing it mentioned in articles is very different than when we started getting the footage in, you know, and actually, I mean, there's so much more footage that exists. And I think that to just sit in that and to see the aftermath of that and to really understand how the unbelievable tragedy of that and that there were nine people that were unalived, you know, the nine people that lost their lives so young, and then, you know, the fam all just. It's a very traumatic event. A very traumatic event, I'm sure, to survive it, but to be witness to it. And so. And I think it was really, really interesting, you know, to even. I was very blown away of just seeing Sean, you know, in that footage and just looking, you know, like, it just felt like kind of like what you would imagine like a war zone to be or something, you know, just like this incredible tragedy and all these people around you, and he just looked so lost and dumbfounded. And so I, I, I think that, you know, that's a part of making documentaries is like, when you actually have the footage, all of a sudden the experience becomes more visceral in the storytelling.
- [15:55]
C
You know, and that footage is one thing I want to talk to you as we go along more about, like, the use of footage that is jarring, because it was very jarring, like to see the pictures of people on the ground in the gym with the blankets over them and all of that. What struck me though, was watching when Combs is talking to the press and he's, you know, he's giving his story about, which I thought was an amazing piece of game. The only thing that matters is making sure this never happens again. Like, like, like you wasn't there, right? Like, like this has absolutely nothing to do with you. And I think it was the first moment when I watched him there that I said to myself, and it continued. There are some people who I've known who are around him who have tried to make the argument that, like, oh, you know, when he was puffy, he was one guy and then he became Diddy and he was another guy. But I watched that and it was like, oh, no. This seems like this has been the same guy the whole way through. Just a lot of us on the outside weren't wise, but it seemed to be pretty constant. Like, there's no inflection point in his voyage where he becomes a different person, just one in different circumstances.
- [16:56]
D
Yeah, his reaction to that, I thought it was really important to include in the film because it's kind of his first, you know, it's his entree to the press, it's his debutante, you know, to the world beyond, you know, what he had created already with party promoting. And, you know, he's still a very low level, you know, employee of Uptown. This isn't even like, you know, an executive who's doing this. I think that, that, and for him to get a press conference and to know how to, how to handle that and what to say and to, to, to kind of, you know, be very, you know, even like the, the tenor of his voice I found to be interesting. And, and how you can hear, you know, how he speaks, you know, and, and, and then when you start putting these pieces together and the timeline together, it's, it feels it, you're like, oh, that reminds me of 1991, you know, so I find it to be very interesting. I also feel like the reaction of him, you know, by Andre Harrell not being fired and being able to continue to, like, blast off with his career, you know, was also just an. Just something interesting to see.
- [18:16]
C
The Andre Harrell part also thought was interesting because most of us who are, like, of a certain age know the Uptown story and the fact that he worked with Andre. One thing that I found to be very interesting, and it was kind of subtle in this is I felt the doc subtly made the point that while there are some things that are very particular to Puff, but it's also kind of the world that he came from. And one of them we talked about, well, you know, at Uptown, they found a way to make sure you didn't get anything other than your advance. And that's what Puff learned. And, yes, that's about him, but that also speaks to the larger industry. And I'm. I found that to be an interesting part of the documentary is those. Those things about him where it is also made clear, though, that this isn't the only guy who did it. Right. Like, we go back to Barry Gordy if we wanted to.
- [18:57]
D
You can go back to the 1930s, you know, to the creation of. I mean, the creation of the music business. And selling records has gone hand in hand with exploiting artists, you know, And I wish that I had more time, you know, to go. I mean, of course, like, there's so much more to go into, and maybe there'll be, you know, maybe this raises an eyebrow for more people, more filmmakers or, you know, more journalists to go and get into those stories. But, yeah, none of that part of, I think the allegations against Shawn, artists who are. Who have felt chronically exploited by him. No, Sean Combs did not start that at all. And that just. I think, especially back then, I think it was just the way the business worked. There's no policing of the music industry at a big level. It's so different now how corporate, you know, things work. But, yeah, it's. It did not start with him.
- [20:03]
C
Yeah. Like, Barry Gordy story always was. I use the same contract as mgm. Right. Like, I. I take the exact same one. But as we. As we get past that point, after we go to the break in a few, I want to talk more about Tupac. But first I wanted to talk. One thing that I think is interesting when you start getting into the era of Bad Boy, is now, as we're talking about, we are getting into his relationships with the artists that he had. And you prominently feature Mark Curry in his documentary, who has a book called Dance with the Devil that I think people should read. I checked that a few years ago, and he was one of the first people to make the point that everybody who worked with Puff ended up dead in jail or in church, which was a. A big one in terms of where he drives people. What was it like for you to do these interviews with people who were actually affected? Because I think. I don't know if anybody was affected more than Curry was. Like, it comes out in his face and everything he talks about on screen.
- [20:52]
D
Yeah, I mean, there was a lot that went into that. I think that there was a design to that where I wanted to talk to people that could speak beyond just. I wanted to speak with people that had kind of been trying to put this on the map for a very long time, because I knew that there would be, you know, in watching this, that people might feel like, oh, well, you're just. You know, you just came and spoke out against Sean Combs to pile on post Cassie's lawsuit. And, you know, in starting to unpack and investigate and doing the research, I realized there were quite a few people that were kind of sounding the alarm, you know, for various different reasons. And Mark Curry was one of those people. He wrote. Wrote a whole book about his time with Bad Boy. But, you know, Mark Curry also has, like, a very interesting kind of place in the story where he had, you know, he had so much time in Atlanta. He, you know, had time. He knew the LA dudes that were kind of a part of the story. And he knew New York because he's, you know, he's like. He's got family ties to all these worlds. So that is. That started to become really. That. That started to hit for me that I was like, oh, this is. This is bigger than just Harlem or Mount Vernon, you know, like this story of Sean Combs. You can't tell it without kind of getting into Atlanta, without getting into Los Angeles and understanding how all these worlds were kind of, you know, moving together.
- [22:26]
C
Right. And as I say, I think Curry may have been the artist most effective. But I think Kirk Burroughs, who was Diddy's partner in Bad Boy, obviously seems to be the most effective person. And I ask about him because since the film has come out, some of the things that he alleged, we've seen pushback from people. The idea that Diddy made the Biggie's funeral a recoupable expense, for example, and questions as to Whether or not that happens for you, what is the process of verifying something that comes from interviews like the ones with Burroughs, who seem to have a lot of information that he would have access to that most people would not?
- [22:59]
D
Well, you know, when things are a part of a lawsuit and when we also, you know, ask for comment, you know, from. From. With these allegations, that's a part of journalism, you know. And the interesting thing about Kirk is that he's made repeated claims, again, going all the way back to 2003. You know, at that time period, he was just, like, laughed out the courthouse, essentially. And then, you know, that kind of his lawsuit, like, went into kind of, like, kickstarted a whole bunch of other things, you know, in his. For. For him. But I felt like this is interesting to see a man who keeps going back with the same, you know, claims, essentially. You know, there's some additional things in the new. The new suit that he has, but that was very much a part of the story. And then obviously, you know, I talked to him. There's a million people that I have spoken with, off the record, you know, that are not in the film. And you start to understand Kirk's position from other people, you know, and what he. What he was around doing at the time. You know, all I can say with the pushback of. Of the things that he is alleging, you know, in his. In his civil suit would be for people to. To look at who's saying those things, you know, and to. To do the work of, you know, to do the work of understanding where that pushback is coming from. I think that's a part of the responsibility before it just goes. Just goes crazy and you're just believing anything. And then, of course, everyone has a right to come forward with a pushback, other evidence. But I think it's a complicated matter. Kirk. You're getting into a lot of technical things about how records are kept, what his position was, and there weren't a lot of people around doing that. So to even break down how the funeral would have potentially been a part of recoupment, that's a whole hour. That's a whole course of understanding that. So it's a lot more complex than, I think, you know, than the. The chatter, you know, around it.
- [25:31]
C
You touched on something there that I think was interesting, which is the idea that when Burrows fired this suit in 03, that he was laugh. You know, kind of laughed out. And it's interesting how many things with Diddy that got laughed away in spite of the things that we knew Actually, factually happened. So, for example, we knew that he beat up Steve Stout with a champagne bottle. Like, we. We knew that this thing happened later. You know, this is not in the film, obviously, but, like, the example of him swinging a kettlebell at the strength coach at ucla. Like, we have examples of a lot of really wild things that he had done, yet somehow we laughed off things that people alleged. And it wasn't as though, like, we don't think he could do such a thing. We knew he could. What did you come away from feeling in doing this movie? Like, how it was possible that these things could be known but also be dismissed almost in the same breath?
- [26:20]
D
I think that, you know, it taps into, like, what the bigger message of the series was for me. And the bigger message was that this is a story that is bigger than Sean Combs. Actually, what I was trying to do was to turn the mirror on us as a public as to what we accept, dismiss. Oh, we just make a couple of jokes about let it go. Or, you know, oh, damn, that was, you know, that was effed up. But, like, whatever. Where is the public's threshold of holding people with positions of power and fame accountable?
- [27:02]
C
Gotcha. All right, coming up next, we're gonna talk about the Tupac and Biggie Chronicles from Sean Combs. The Reckoning. It's the holiday season, and it's time to make dreams come true. To make these holiday favorites, it takes a team of talented people, from actors to editors to props people to sound crew and more. And when it comes to building such a team, whether it's for the entertainment industry or a wide range of other industries, you need to hire the right people. The best way to do that is with ZipRecruiter. And right now you can try it for free@ziprecruiter.com Bomani you can find out right away how many job seekers in your area are qualified for your role. With ZipRecruiter's advanced resume database, you can instantly unlock top candidates contact info. Make your hiring a little merrier with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try ZipRecruiter for free. ZipRecruiter.com/Bomani Again, that's ZipRecruiter.comBomani ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire. All right, we are back with Alex Stapleton, director of Sean Combs the Reckoning. I mean, there's Kind of no, like, easy way to. Way to ease into this. I watched the documentary and came away from it feeling something that I had never really felt before, which is. It seems entirely possible that Diddy had Tupac killed, that. That the relationship that he had with, not, if only circumstantial, with whatever happened in Las Vegas in September of 1996. Did you go into that learning these, learning what you saw, or is that something that, when you began formulating this film, is like, oh, okay, I think this is something we'll. We'll talk about?
- [28:53]
D
I did not see that getting into Tupac's tragic death is something that happened, you know, organically. And, you know, I didn't have a clear understanding of, like, how much time, you know, that we were going to give. I definitely wanted to make sure that I was opening up more of the backstory that led up to those events, you know, and I felt like the club shooting in Atlanta, just some of the back and forth that was going on, even, like I said earlier, really getting people to understand that there was a relationship that existed or that Sean and Suge knew each other and that Pac knew Biggie and Sean, you know, that these were all relationships of people that were familiar with each other, even if they weren't all friends. And so, you know, I think it's interesting that if the takeaway of this is the takeaway of this. But what became important to me was that when I had all of the proffer tapes and all of this law enforcement material, that I thought it was important to just let it speak for itself. Keefe D is the person that is alleging this. You know, Keefe D is the person who repeatedly, you know, has kind of said the same story. And Keefe D is currently in jail awaiting trial for the murder of Tupac. So I felt like as a. As someone covering the story, he's. He is involving, you know, Sean and putting him into the story. And how could that be overlooked? And so I felt like, well, if I'm gonna do this, then we kind of have to unpack it so that by the time Keefe starts speaking on it, you kind of understand who all the players are that he's alleging that were involved in the story.
- [30:52]
C
And how was it for you as a process, balancing his claims? Because he is not the most reliable narrator. Like, we could not just have Keefe D speak on his own.
- [31:04]
D
You know, we included interviews with. With law enforcement. We had a ton of. Of files that were given to us for our own review, and that was backed up, you know, and, you know, I think that the trial like this is everything that exists that, that we had. And now the trial will be the trial, you know, like that, that is where the, where the legal, the law will, the legal system will take control of presenting, you know, whatever happens with that. Of course, you know, as the filmmaking team, we reached out, you know, for comment from Sean and did not hear anything, did not get any response.
- [31:55]
C
Yeah, and I think the film speaks to something that I don't think I had properly contextualized is this was really a puffin shook beef as much, if not more than it was a Tupac and Biggie beef. Like, I remember the 95 Source Awards where Suge, you know, all up in the videos. Dancing was the famous part. But I always remember from watching it when Diddy got to the microphone and he was all the way in the diffuse mode and it always felt in watching like it was the gangsters on this side and this dude's just running a record label. But no, these guys actually seem pretty similar.
- [32:29]
D
Well, it again, it struck me as being very interesting whenever he has the public, you know, and he's on the mic and he has the podium, how he presents, you know, himself. And that is, that is, that is there for people, you know, to make their own, to draw their own conclusions, you know, to, you know, it's constantly this paradox, right, of the public facing Sean Combs and then the Sean Combs that is underneath the hood and what's festering, what's brewing and what's happening behind.
- [33:06]
C
Closed doors and his preternatural ability to maximize any situation in the way that he looks at it. Example of that being after Biggie dies and it's time for a Rolling Stone cover. Like actually that's time for my Rolling Stone Stone cover. And I'm about to put my album out after this. It's like at every turn, no matter what bad happened, he had somehow figured out how he was going to be the guy that came out on top.
- [33:35]
D
I mean, everyone grieves differently.
- [33:45]
C
That's well done. That's a, that's that, that, that he, he definitely grieved in his own way. That is, that is the way to put this. It did it in part after kind of in the timeline between Biggie dying. There is obviously the shooting at the club in Club New York that involves shine and goodness. I wish you could have gotten him to sit down because I mean, he's over not. He's a politician, he's a little bit over it. But boy, he used to be mad. There's almost. It's not a gap in time between then and when we get to Cassie. But it seems like it felt like the goal of the film was to establish the person that may have been arisen by the time we get to kind of the late aughts, in the early teens in his relationship with Cassie. But it does seem that it's like the line from the Wire. The game didn't change. It has gotten more fierce. It does seem that by the time you get to the end of that, he was the same person all the time. But there definitely seemed to be. It felt darker and more sinister. Like, is that kind of how you felt in. In terms of putting the story together?
- [34:43]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's a story as old as time. Right. You know, what happens when you have more access to power, more access to money, you being able to control your narrative becomes, you know, like, that there becomes a machine. It's, like, hard to penetrate or to alter. And this is also, again, happening. I think what's really fascinating is a lot of this story takes place before social media was at play or where people could just put up their cell phone and record someone doing a bad deed at a club or whatever. So it was so much easier, I feel like, back then to sweep things underneath the rug and to sort of also control legacy media or to control outlets that were reporting on stuff to get people to sway, you know, and to kind of keep your. Your brand tight. And so I think that it was just the perfect storm for him. You know, I always, like, think of, like, I did this film called Shut up and Dribble. The series called Shut up and Dribble. And Scoop Jackson was like, you know, Michael Jordan is like. It's like the perfect storm. Everything has to align, right? For Michael Jordan to be like Michael Jordan of he's a goat, right? But, like, Nike has to be where it's at. The NBA has to be where it's at. Chicago Bulls have to be where they're at. And then you have this. This player. And I think there's a similarity with that, especially in the 2000s with Sean Combs. Again, maybe. Maybe a bit darker in tone as far as what was going on, you know, with these allegations behind closed doors. But it's like this perfect storm. Storm of how he was in the middle of this, like, giant culture shift, all of these things happening. He's in the right place at the right time to link up with a liquor company, and everything happens and he has the. Know how to, like, start a clothing line. He's diversifying himself. But hip hop was also diversifying itself. And hip hop was, you know, Steve Stout wrote, is the tanning of America. Yeah, this is that time period, you know, and all these guys were benefiting from that. But, you know, the question becomes, as Sean was building those business opportunities, if with these allegations, it's like it was. If the allegations are all true, it seems as though his ecosystem was also designed to kind of keep those things suppressed.
- [37:31]
C
Right now, in expressing a lot of the ideas of telling the story. We talked about this a little earlier when we talked about the CCNY incident. You had access to a lot of truly jarring footage to sell a lot of these. You have access to footage from the murder of Biggie Smalls that we had not seen previously. Little Rod and the pictures of the guy your ladies got shot in the bathroom, for example. For you as filmmaker, was there a specific importance to use that, like, the goal to. It's easy to kind of be like, oh, this is wild Internet news. But, like, to make it such that you. No, no, these are real things that happen.
- [38:10]
D
I mean, it goes back to when we were talking about why, like, CCNY hits you very hard. You know, when you have tangible footage, tangible. Or even with Joy Dickerson reading a letter, you know, when you have like, these artifacts or art pieces of archival, It, of course, kind of puts what the person is saying and their allegations. It sort of gives you. It becomes a visceral, like, conversation. And there's just. No, that's just. There's no denying that, you know, and I think that so much of how Sean Combs is with. And I have to, you know, say I've never met him, spent a lot of time with him in the edit bay. But I. I think that he really comes. You start to understand how he speaks to people, how it's not, you know, with the Little Rod voicemails. It's like, it's not. It's very interesting, you know, the sort of way that he can kind of make you feel like a million dollars, but, like, cut you and then make you feel like, like, don't ever ask me for anything. Like, like. And I To do all of that in 30 seconds. Like, kind of have to hear it in order for it to. To. In order to really understand, you know, what Little Rod is even talking about. Otherwise. Yeah, it seems like crazy. Like, you, You. You know, and most people don't work in the music industry, so they're like, you worked for A guy for a year. And like. Like, how did you even do that, like, without getting paid? That is fantastical, you know, to most people. Yeah.
- [39:50]
C
And I think. I think we have a lot of questions for Lil Rod, and that is the first one that comes up.
- [39:55]
D
I.
- [39:56]
C
In watching this, obviously you had all this footage for Diddy, and you had this footage because he's one of those people who recorded himself all the time. And you just mentioned getting. Yeah, you just mentioned getting to know him at the edit bay. And I don't know really how to phrase the question, but I'm just curious. The experience of seeing somebody like you just said you got to know him even though you don't know him like that, that feels like a weird dystopian sort of thing to try to, like, however long you did this, you were. It's like you were talking to the chat bot, but the chat bot was Diddy.
- [40:25]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think I feel that way. I think my editors feel that way. You know, my. My showrunner, the producer. I think we all, like, we're like, we, We. You start to understand when you have so much footage and there's so much footage that's not even in the film, right? Like, you start to see his, like, his gears, you know, like, there's the gear of being very performative and the bravado of, like, I'm on camera and I'm gonna run this, you know, this situation. And then there's, you know, moments where you can feel like, oh, he forgot that the camera was there. Or, you know, there's moments where he's. I mean, I can even tell because this is a man who worked in reality television for a very long time. When you work in that space, you know how to turn it on and off when the cameras are rolling. And you also know that, like, oh, this little thing over here that I don't want people to know about, I can cut that out, you know, so if I. If I let loose a little bit, I'm going to be. I'm going to be okay. And you see all those gears at play, or we did, you know, in making this. And I think that it almost felt like, as a filmmaker, it almost felt like I spent. Like I actually filmed him. But, you know, it's really just because of his quest to always be filming everything about his life.
- [41:52]
C
So you have mentioned the extent that you and his production have gone through to protect the identity of the filmmaker from whom, you know, where the. Where all this film came from. I asked you to clarify this, because honestly, I feel silly almost asking. But doesn't Diddy know who was filming them all the time?
- [42:14]
D
That's a question for Diddy.
- [42:17]
C
There we go. I'll ask him next time I see him. But in the end, it's interesting to hear you say that you viewed this as much as a mirror for the public to put before themselves and ask, you know, how this happened. And I feel like a part of expressing that point was the jurors being present in the documentary, were you surprised that they wanted to, or is this like. I felt like what ezra Edelman did O.J. made in America, and he had. The jurors, they had had 20 years of being called basically stupid black people, and they didn't. They felt like there was an explanation to be given. I didn't. I was surprised that for this trial, the jurors, especially, so soon, would have wanted to have been a part of it. Did that surprise you at all?
- [42:59]
D
Yes and no. Yes and no. I think if you had to ask me, like, during the trial, like, oh, when this is all over, and of course we're going to do our reach out to try to find these jurors, are they going to say yes? I probably would have been like, fat chance. Right. But it was such a. Similar to OJ's trial, it kind of, I feel like it started out pretty serious and it just kind of like became a circus, you know, like the actual proceedings at the, like outside of the courthouse. I guess I wouldn't say that the courtroom was a circus, but I feel like the jurors, you know, I just feel like there was a lot of adrenaline going and I think that transferred potentially over to them. And for them, I think, you know, I think they were very adamant to speak, to share, like, this is how we got to this verdict, you know, and they felt very proud of their decision, but it was just a curious, like, it was like a very interesting energy. And, you know, honestly, like, we, I spoke to Mordors, these were the two that we actually filmed with. But there could have been more. You know, I just, we weren't really doing like the trial as like an episode, but. And they all, they all, they all were very, not every single juror, but the jurors that I did speak with, they were, they were totally fine and okay with, with being filmed.
- [44:31]
C
Yeah. And I do think I came away, like, I think as unsettling as this line may have been for some people, I think there was something to it. But, you know, domestic violence was not one of the Charges. Like, I. I felt like I came away from it. And much like the OJ Documentary. The OJ Documentary, I came away with two thoughts. I came away more certain than ever that OJ Killed those people and more certain than ever that he should have been acquitted. Like, as. As counterintuitive as that may seem, I felt in this also, to a degree, like, I see. I see why on those larger charges there was an acquittal. Was. There was. Was what you were doing at all an attempt to explain what the jurors may do or how the outcome came to be, or just a retelling of the events themselves?
- [45:12]
D
I think it was giving, like, giving their perspective, you know, like a window into their perspective. I think beyond the actual verdict decision. I thought it was interesting and especially because we were able to. Was able to secure an interview with Capricorn Clark. So I thought that it was interesting. For me to sit down with Capricorn and to kind of understand where she emotionally was, you know, And I think that this was like, a lot for her. You know, I think as you. This was also something that's very nuanced. But, like, Kirk Broughs has had a couple of decades to kind of sort of be at peace with how he tells this story because he's. There's so much time that has gone past Capricorn, kind of, I feel like, for her, and I think it's a fair representation to say this, I feel like she was very surprised when Cassie's lawsuit dropped her. You know, she was just thrust into, like, this very, you know, the trial of the century. And. And she's a part of it. And she's a part of like, a very big part of like, you know, a car bomb and, you know, like this whole, like, crazy story. And she's in the center of that. And, you know, and she has a very long relationship with both Cassie and Sean, you know, in working with both of them. So it sort of was interesting because to me, when I'm interviewing people, it's like you can meet people where they are to understand, well, she's going to. You know, a lot of this is very visceral for her, potentially even re. Traumatizing her. So she may not be the perfect person in articulating herself at every minute on a stand. It was very interesting to hear the jurors perspectives that that kind of meant that they took that. That meant something different for them.
- [47:08]
C
Right. And I think also in making this movie something that I guess people. I think a lot of people know, but Most people don't necessarily think about is there are no cameras in federal court. Right. So we just get the. We just get the weirdo pictures. Right? The. The scribbles.
- [47:21]
D
Very weirdo.
- [47:22]
C
Yeah, yeah, they come out. And I would like. That trial is so interesting because in. For the. In the film, for example, like, we got to see a lot of, like, the recreations of emails that were sent between Kazi and Diddy, you know, and all these different things. And we would see them, but obviously, through no fault of your own, it feels like that's kind of the missing piece in this, is to see what it was like in those moments, right, with him looking like Frederick Douglass because he can't get no shoe polish while he's in jail to touch his up. And then all these things are going on and he's there and at the end he's on his knees. Like, it's the wildest scene. And I can only imagine how jealous a filmmaker has to be that, you know, this is there and just can't get a hold of it.
- [48:01]
D
Yeah, I mean, I. Yeah, it's like, it's. It's. It's really frustrating because, like, going back to comparing it to the O.J. trial, like, I feel like O.J. was televised. Right. But the jurors were sequestered.
- [48:15]
C
Yes. And this is the opposite.
- [48:17]
D
So it's like, that was that. And then this was like non sequestered jurors, but no TVs in the courthouse. Very interesting. Yeah. I think cameras being there would. I can only imagine, like, how the dynamic change would have been for better or for worse for Sean Combs. I'm not sure, but it would be really interesting if the public could have seen things. And, yeah, the drawings are. It's almost like the drawings make it, like, even more not real because.
- [48:58]
C
So as we start to wrap this, I am terrible when people ask me the most or the biggest or whatever, but I am curious if there's anything that jumps out to you as being something really interesting to you that you came across in working on this that you had not known or were not aware of before you started working on this film.
- [49:18]
D
Oh, man. I mean, there's a lot that I didn't know. I mean, as far as, like, just basic level facts. I mean, I think for me, like, opening up, you know, the second episode and like I said, really going back to the windy. The winding windy road of how all these people knew each other was. Was really fascinating to me. I. I should have a prepared answer for this because I Feel like when I'm with 50, maybe he's been answering this more than me. But I think what probably the biggest thing that I had to grapple with was kind of a question that I asked myself. And it was a part of the reason as to why I started it, which was like, as a culture, this is going back to like, this is about us, right? As a community of people in a post me too world. Like, when the egg is cracked open and we have allegations like this in the hip hop space and in the hip hop community, what will the reaction be? And I think that, you know, I think that, like, the film is kind of still asking the question of that. I don't think I'm giving, I cannot give that answer. I'm just a filmmaker, you know, like, and I, but what I do think is interesting is how I really, I thought that maybe I would be more at an we would have more of an ending by now. But it almost feels like this is the beginning of like a new chapter and new conversations and new ways to analyze again, not just Sean Combs, but I hope that this really starts to lead into conversations about analyzing our legal system and, you know, how we handle conversations about victims, how our legal system handles conversation allegations, you know, for victims. So, yeah, it's, it's just, it's just a slice of time, a piece, a reflection piece. And yeah.
- [51:37]
C
All right. That is Alexandria Stapleton. She is the director of Sean Combs the Reckoning. I want to read some more of this stuff from your bio because everything in here is like, wow, this sounds really cool. You got a fourth cover documentary on Terrell Owens in partnership with Skydance that is coming. You directed one part of God Save Texas, the Price of Oil, a documentary series that HBO did. And we talked earlier about How Music Got Free and Reggie Jackson. I got some things to go check. So I wanted to go let the other people know if they wanted to see more of your work, how they could get it. And I appreciate you joining us.
- [52:07]
D
Yeah. And I got another. It's announcing today that, oh, yes, Brittney Griner film, so H Town.
- [52:14]
C
Yes, 2026 on ESPN. The Brendy Griner film is coming. So I appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much.
- [52:21]
D
Thank you.
- [52:22]
C
All right, no problem. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the Right Time. We do this four times a week. Ryan Brumley handing everything behind the scenes. Thank you, sir. Remember, follow the Right Time. Also hit the voicemail line. 323-596-7767 subscribe Like Rate us, review us, give us 5 stars. You only give us 4 stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. And we'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy, Limu Emu and Doug. Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [53:13]
E
Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [53:16]
C
Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings. Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.
- [53:26]
E
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