← The Right Time with Bomani Jones
The Right Time with Bomani Jones
Bomani Jones & Howard Bryant on The Untold Stories of Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson | 01.20
01:04:01
Loading summary
Transcript101 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Right Time, a Wave original. My name is Bonnie Jones. Thanks for listening. Wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is Time Machine Tuesday. Not only is Howard Bryan joining us, Howard Bryant is joining, joining us because he has got a brand new book that is in stores called Kings and Pawns. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see the COVID right here and you will see a picture of Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson. My man, how are you?
- [00:40]
B
I'm good. How are you doing all right?
- [00:42]
A
I'm great. I just got through reading the book. There's so many different directions that we can go in on this one because this is one of those books that was an incredible read that kind of makes you feel bad about everybody, but at the same time and incredible read. And I think, as a lot of people may surmise and a lot may not, because we're talking about two figures that I think are kind of one who is almost faded completely, but one who is fading from a certain omnipresence in American society. But the connection with Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson that those familiar with both will have is Jackie Robinson appearing before the House UN American Activities Committee in 1949 in large part to, to talk about Paul Robeson. And what you mentioned in the book, about this book coming together, I thought was interesting was this is such a big moment, but in the way that you put it, we haven't had a lot about how it came to happen in the first place.
- [01:36]
B
No, that's right. And, and also what's crazy to me about it and just sort of working on these different ideas is to your, to your earlier point, people don't know this story. I mean, these guys are giants. I mean, I'm talking about black people. I'm talking about when I would talk to other black people about this, Mom. A lot of people, one, didn't know it happened, didn't know that Jackie Robinson testified against Robison, and two, had no idea who Robeson was. And that was sort of chilling to me just from a literacy standpoint and from a history standpoint, like, do we know who we are? And I think that, to me, what I was really trying to get at in working on this was these different, this continuum, this continuum of what black people feel they need to do to prove what do we need to do to prove our worth. And Jackie Robinson felt In the middle of the second Red Scare, in the middle of the US versus the Soviet Union, in the middle of questioning patriotism and questioning Americanism, that on behalf of black people, he had to speak up against Robeson, who had given a speech in Paris where he had been quoted by the Associated Press of saying it is unthinkable that. That black people would fight against the Soviet Union in the event of a war. And so for Jackie to do that, the reasons to me were just really worth exploring.
- [03:08]
A
So before we get to the particulars of the book, and I think you made a very important point about people not necessarily knowing who Paul Robeson was. Now, I say very often that I believe that Martin Luther King was probably the finest man that this country has produced. Paul Robeson is probably the baddest that has walked the.
- [03:31]
B
The, the.
- [03:32]
A
The grounds, the soil of the United States. And as we'll get to black, white or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a different situation. What was the way he's read the tallest tree in the forest.
- [03:42]
B
That's right.
- [03:43]
A
Is the reference of reference for him. And so for people who do not know who Paul Robeson was. Paul Robeson first came into the American consciousness as of his time, the best college football player of his era. He later goes to Columbia Law School. He becomes a lawyer. He is the most prominent singer, performer in this country of a bass baritone singer known all around the world. And also just. He's that dude, man. But he also had strong, far left pro labor politics that defined him. And as much as anything else, there is a great documentary by Sinclair born on Paul Robeson that I remember seeing, I guess now, about 25 years ago. And I just sat up and watched this and I was like, this is the. This is the most incredible man I can think of. And he's one of these cats where I think about dudes. Jackie Robinson is somebody that we talk about in these contexts. And it gets a little frustrating when white people start referring to a black person's dignity up front because it is white in general.
- [04:43]
B
Yeah.
- [04:43]
A
That requires that dignity to be shown at all times. However, this is the most dignified man I've ever seen.
- [04:50]
B
Yeah. And on top of that, it's. The thing about Robison is you just need two or three or four pages to talk about everything. He was so not only the bass baritone, not only the concert singer, not only the singing in multiple languages, not only the Columbia educated lawyer, but also one of the greatest college football players of all time. And also he played in the NFL. He played in the first two years in the National Football League. And so you're talking about somebody who checks every box in terms of just the unbelievable amount of talent. We talk about Jackie Robinson integrating the major leagues in 1947. Well, Paul Robeson integrated Broadway in 1943 with Othello. And to this day, it's still a record for most consecutive performances of a Shakespeare play on Broadway. 296 performances. And so Robeson was everything. And that is the thing about this book that I really loved was. Was rediscovering him and recognizing just how big a figure he was. Just, I mean, you could say that maybe Joe Louis, you could say that Jesse Owens or Jackie Robinson were the most famous black people in the United States. Paul Robeson was the most famous black American in the world. Right. I mean, let's just, when we ask that question, when we have done it, of like, who is the most famous black person, black American in the world? We have talked about maybe Muhammad Ali. We've talked about Michael Jordan, etc. He's in that category. Can you imagine generations of people not knowing who Michael Jordan was or not knowing who Muhammad Ali was? That's what happened to Paul Robeson.
- [06:33]
A
And big he was. Why we say he's the tallest tree in the forest. That was also literal, too.
- [06:38]
B
63250.
- [06:39]
A
Yeah, back then.
- [06:41]
B
Back then.
- [06:42]
A
Right. Like, my mother's father was about that size and was like the biggest dude that anybody knew at the time. So, like, when we talk about him being the best college football player, he's not the. Like, this isn't Red Grange. Where it's like, oh, look at him run the ball. No, man. This was a massive giant of a man with the deepest voice that you had, with not an ounce of back down in his soul, not requesting your affection, but demanding your respect.
- [07:10]
B
That's right. And on top of that, it's a reminder that time is not. Time is a little more flexible than we think. His father was born a slave. Yes. His father was born into slavery. Right. This man died in 1976. His. His father was born into slavery. So we talk about these things being so long ago. They're not that long ago. That continuum is much shorter than people think.
- [07:33]
A
Right. And I think something the book does a very good job of, and that I had not thought that much about, truly, is the way I think that we think about decades and eras of the 20th century is not really via the context of, like, geopolitical history, but it's in the context of pop culture. We Think of the roaring twenties, right? We think of the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. And distinctly, because of these pieces of culture, like we think of World War I and World War II, but we don't talk about the teens in the 40s or even the 30s. We talk about the Great Depression, but we don't, you know, we don't talk about those eras in that same way. And so for me, what this book really starts talking about is a time period that is very, very important, which is really the 40s, the 30s to a degree, but the 40s also, because all of this is kind of the cresting of the re emergence of a certain measure of American segregation and a measure of American racism that wasn't the case. I talk to Tannah Heisey Coates about this all the time. Reconstruction, the most under discussed and important period in American history, but the terror of the second red scare of the 1940s is something that we never really talk that much about generally, but also specifically out as it affected black people, people and as it affected black politics. And that, to me, of this book, is really the backdrop of it, which is black people trying to get free, trying to figure out exactly how to get free and how so much of black America, including Jackie Robinson and especially the naacp, made an enemy of Paul Robeson at the behest of the state because the state legitimately saw Robeson as the most dangerous man in America.
- [09:23]
B
That's right. And on top of that, you think about it, that's what I mean about the continuum of the strategy. So World War I, American involvement, 1917, 1918. And you have black people volunteering to fight with the expectation that when we come home, we'll be treated as equals because we fought for the country as well. But when we come home, it's one of the most violent periods of American history toward black people. Tulsa, East St. Louis, the number of race riots all across the country during that period, which, by the way, coincides with the first Red scare, with the Bolshevik Revolution, this idea that black people are coming for your jobs. And so you have this period. And during that period, the black establishment giants, a Philip Randolph, W.E.B. du Bois. They take the attitude that we need to suppress our civil rights demands in exchange for supporting the country. It's a time of war. We'll take our personal needs aside and we'll put those on the side, and then we'll fight for the country. World War II comes around, and after experiencing all of that violence, the new strategy is, no, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna fight for both. We'll fight for the country, we'll enlist, we'll volunteer, but we also want our civil rights. And so the response to that period was the same when black soldiers came back. Nothing but violence for those soldiers coming home. And whether you're talking about Detroit lynched in their uniforms, lynched in uniform. And that's the thing, and that's what I found so interesting about this project was so many of our readers today, so many people today are thinking about post 9 11America. Thank you for your service. You wear the uniform, you get the special discounts. People look at you with reverence. If you had a uniform on in the 1940s, as a black man, you were a target. You were a target of violence. You wore that uniform at your own peril. And so the battle taking place here, moving in after the post war, after World War II ends, is okay. What do we have to do now to prove that we're American? We went and fought twice and came back and were subject to so much violence both times. Now you've got this new enemy, the Soviet Union. And now the ask is to prove that you're American by denouncing anybody who was associated with or friendly with or allied at some level with progressive left wing politics. And the NAACP made a choice. And that choice was, hey, we've got civil rights in this country. We can't let anything come in the way of that. And Robeson once again was a giant. He's the guy. And the NAACP attitude was, you're gonna ruin this for everybody. You can't link us with this. And that has long ranging consequences when it comes to not just civil rights, the coming civil rights movement, but also the conversation of affordability and capitalism and all these other questions that affect black people.
- [12:56]
A
What we're talking about also is in this similar time period of the beginning of the integration of Major League Baseball, which create. There's an irony to this, and the book points this out, it creates this figure in Jackie Robinson. And a part of Jackie Robinson becoming a Major League baseball player or the integration of baseball, is Paul Robeson meeting with the owners.
- [13:21]
B
That's right. And Robeson in 1943, December 43, meets with the owners and to encourage them to open the doors to black players. Why? Because black people are fighting in the war. And is there anything more American than baseball? And what better way to show the world that this is a democracy as opposed to Nazi Germany, than to have its national pastime open to all people? And the baseball Owners are like, yeah, no.
- [13:50]
A
Right. Keeping in mind there's some people who are like, hey, you know, since it's this war and all the white boys over there fighting, maybe you could use some of the colors.
- [13:58]
B
That's right.
- [14:00]
A
To help you out.
- [14:00]
B
And they were like, that's right. They're like, no, we're not going to do that. And what's really fascinating about it was, is that Jackie had been for years considered a pawn of the segregationists for testifying against Robeson. Well, the reason why they had asked Paul Robeson to come to speak to the owners was to actually counter a movement from the black press called the Double V campaign, which was victory abroad, victory at home, meaning, we'll fight for you over there, but when we come home, we want. We want our rights. And so there had been planned protests of Major League Baseball by the black press. And once the black. Once baseball got wind that, oh, okay, these protests for civil rights are coming to your front step door, you know, your doorstep. We need to do something. So strategically, they invited Robeson, who was the hottest commodity in America, because, you know, a couple months earlier, he had just integrated Broadway with Othello. And so he's the guy. And so in a lot of ways, the Major League Baseball owners used Robeson the same way the House at American Activities Committee used Robinson against him six years later.
- [15:09]
A
And, you know, I talked to you a lot while you were researching this book, and I didn't fully appreciate that there were these documents that had now been available at the Baseball hall of Fame. And it sounds like you got your first fingerprints on them, because I don't know how much anybody else necessarily knew that they were there. But the most interesting thing that you told me as it was going, and it was in the book, was that the owner's biggest fear of integration was not the integration of the field. But I let you hit the punchline.
- [15:38]
B
Yeah, exactly. The question was not whether or not Jackie Robinson was a good player or the whether Satchel Paige was a good player. It wasn't the question as to whether or not they could play. It was because they could play. And what was the consequence of great black players was more black people coming to the stands, coming to the ballpark using their money. And what are the things we always talk about? Oh, well, green trumps everything. No, green does not trump everything. The baseball owners were petrified that black players would make white fans stay away from the ballpark. I don't want to sit next to black people. In fact, there was a report that the owners sent to the commissioner, happy Chandler, in 1946, after Jackie Robinson had a great minor league season in Montreal at the International League, saying that he's the existential threat to the business, that the success of this one Negro threatens the financial stability and the financial values of all of our clubs because he. He attracts black fans.
- [16:47]
A
And even Branch Rickey was afraid, the great integrator of Major League Baseball, of.
- [16:52]
B
Major League Baseball, was afraid of this. And on top of that, the note in that report, you really read that report, the real feeling here is he has betrayed us in a way that we have never been betrayed. That signing Jackie Robinson was one of the greatest betrayals in the history of baseball, according to these owners. And that is the thing. That was another reason that I wanted to do this book, which was we talk about April 15, 1947, as the great moment that it was about how it made the fans feel. We talk about the sacrifices that Jackie meant, but usually those things are centered on the vitriol that he received from fans in the stands. That's usually where it, you know, we talk about what Jackie went through and how some of the players were mean to him or whatever. But what we never talk about is the real threat was the fact that the. The institution itself did not want him. The. The owners of the game, not only did they not want him, but they were so angry at Branch Rickey for what he had done. Baseball had a whole strategy to keep integration from coming. They had. They had agreed the president of the Yankees, Larry McPhail, the owner of the Senators, Clark Griffith. Clark Griffith. They had agreed that what we'll do is we'll fund the Negro Leagues, we'll give you money. We know you guys are underfunded to keep you out of our sport. We'll fund your sport, but we're going to keep that line completely separate. And Ricky broke ranks. Ricky went rogue. And they were just irate and wrote letters to each other saying, can you believe that he did this to us?
- [18:35]
A
Yeah. And I think it's also interesting that I think in a lot of our minds, it's like, okay, well, now that this has happened, let's go. It's game on.
- [18:43]
B
But it was right, and it wasn't.
- [18:44]
A
It was not the Cleveland Indians. Also, ironically, the Indians, they had. Larry Doby comes next. They win the 1948 World Series. Also of note, the last time they won one of those things. But you still had teams all the way into the mid to late 50s.
- [18:59]
B
That's right.
- [19:00]
A
That were not, especially in the American League.
- [19:02]
B
Well, that's what is so interesting about this, in terms of what does it take for black people to be considered American? What does it take to be accepted? What does it take to prove your worth? And so Jackie Robinson, at the behest, really, of Branch Rickey, goes into a realm that he's not comfortable. You know, we look at Jackie as this great political figure. He was not into politics. He was asked to do this. He had no interest in doing this. So he goes and testifies on behalf of baseball against the sense of.
- [19:34]
A
Out of a sense of obligation, it's.
- [19:35]
B
Worth noting, a sense of obligation to Ricky. This man put me on. This man opened the door for other black players. He changed history. I have to do this, but I also have to do something else. And Jackie said this in his memoir, which is, I didn't want white people to think we weren't patriotic. I felt a sense of obligation there. If Robeson had the last word, that maybe they would think worse of us. And so he felt like he needed to do that. And Rachel Robinson also gave an interview where she said, you know, Jack was one of those guys. My country, right or wrong. And you have this same battle today, which is whether or not, do we sit this out after Trump 2.0? Do we stay involved? Do we back off? And Jackie's position was, I got a piece of this. This is mine, too. You can do whatever you want to me, but I was born here. This is mine, too. And so that conundrum really is the sort of the center of the book in terms of tactics. Do you stay in? Do you sit it out? And if you do go in, are you actually working on behalf of your people, or are you, you know, are you against them in some ways by doing the one thing that we all know we're not supposed to do, which is to be in service of people who aren't interested in our success.
- [20:55]
A
And I thought that you did not state this explicitly in these terms, but I think one of the more interesting juxtapositions between Robeson's approach and the approach of the NAACP and the larger aristocracy, and it's important when noting the NAACP, that when I'm talking about the NAACP in the 1940s, I am specifically not talking about W.E.B. du Bois, who by then is on a complete other side of the aisle, because there is this force that is the Communist Party that has popped up. And so this is before communism became a full on bad word and was like, at that time, it was a bad word, like, hell is A bad word.
- [21:35]
B
That's right.
- [21:36]
A
It later became a bad word. Like you fuck ass, bitch. You see what I'm saying? Like, it became a whole nother level. It had a whole nother magnitude to it. But as we're talking about this, on one side is the NAACP and Jackie Robinson aligned of that side, believing that if we could get the white folks to love us, then everything will be okay and we'll get what we need. Now, it was interesting to think that they thought that. They thought that such a love was possible given literally every piece of available evidence. But the thought was that if we could demonstrate that we really kind of just like you, we'll be okay. On the other side was the tallest tree in the forest, demanding that he be respected. Very much a ball player in this sense. Right. The lack of back down and the insistence, the imposition of his will. He believed almost in making this happen. And what you have with Robinson and the NAACP as they are doing that is, well, a way we can show you that we love you is we can attack Paul Robeson. And a big part of this, obviously, is when Robinson goes and testifies before the committee and says that black people, we don't really ride with that Paul Robeson like that. That's not really what we're about. But the irony of it all is those politics from the NAACP and Jackie Robinson also were straight aligned with the politics of Branch Rickey, anti communist general manager of the Brooklyn Dodgers. So at once, Jackie is doing the bidding of these black people, but he's really specifically doing the bidding of this white man. Because the black people in this case believe that, that doing their own bidding required doing that bit of bidding for the capital T, capital W, W, capital M. The white man.
- [23:34]
B
That's right. And I, and, and once again, I mean, I feel like Jackie, whenever you go through this and I'm going, okay, well, you have to try to play this as much down the middle as possible because it's a bio. It's a dual biography in some ways. Not. It wasn't a biography of each of those guys. It was of this moment in time. But Jackie has never survived this. His reputation has never survived testifying against Robeson. Malcolm X went at him for it. He felt it himself that there were black people who viewed him as a sellout. The Black Panther Party went after him for it. He really didn't deserve what he got in some ways because he understood it. He was upset. 1949, July 18, 1949, when he testifies, that's four years after Branch Rickey has signed him four years, there are only seven black players in the game. So that was. The other piece of. This was like, okay, this April 15th moment, 1947, we talk about this being the greatest moment in baseball history, et cetera, integration. But the owners were very much aligned with that report they had made. They did not follow. There were seven Black players on opening day in 1949, and five of them played for the Indians and the Dodgers. You had Jackie Newcomb, Campanella, Satchel Page and Larry Doby. That's it. Right. And so the owners are actually doing exactly what they had said previously. We are not going to sign these players. And yet when Jackie goes out there to testify, the name of those hearings in front of the. In front of huac, the House UN American Activities Committee, was the. It really was the loyalty of black people, infiltration and communist infiltration of minority groups. But it really was a loyalty test of African Americans. And here's Jackie in the middle of it going, you haven't integrated your own sport. I've been here four years, and there's only six other guys here with me. And to your point, Jackie. When Jackie retired at the end of the 56 season, the Tigers, the Phillies and the Red Sox still hadn't integrated. So that's the piece of this that's really interesting about what you feel like you have to do and how at the end of this, you've got these two guys who were placed in opposition to each other, essentially ending up in the same place of disillusionment. Jackie Robinson did everything this country asked him to do, just as Paul Robeson did everything this country asked him to do. And the reason why you talk about Robeson not having any backdown was because Robeson had recognized when he was living in Princeton, when he was growing up at a young age, from his father, he had found that the white people were even more angry at him. When he succeeded, when he was in high school in Somerville, when he won all those contests for diction and oration and the debate team and in sports, the more he succeeded, the more vitriol he received, the more anger, the more resentment he felt from people around him, even in service of them. And that really hardened his politics and hardened his personal politics. These people do not want you to compete with them ever, even in service of them. And the way that he had placed it was the way he put it, I use this often is they wanted benevolence, but not equality. I mean, they'll give you some money for charity and they'll help you out with your underserved and underprivileged stuff and they'll throw some money your way, but not equals.
- [27:33]
A
Coming up next. I want to talk specifically about Jackie Robinson in this because I found in reading the book and you and I again, we've talked about this for a couple of years as you were working on it. Like so how exactly do I feel about him after knowing what we know? And it's a complex thing and we'll talk about it next. Every Friday from 6 to 7:30, it's NBA happy hour on FanDuel. Your pregame for the weekend. We're talking limited time specials you won't want to miss. Boosts, bonuses, surprises, all dropping in the app during happy hour. So before tip off, check the FanDuel app to see the week special. Then make your move before the shot clock expires at 7:30 Eastern. It's the perfect way to start your weekend. A little basketball, a little action and a whole lot of Friday energy. That's NBA Happy Hour every Friday from 6 to 7:30pm Eastern only on FanDuel. Official sportsbook partner of the NBA.
- [28:26]
B
21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and present in D.C. kansas, Wyoming. Opt in requirement awards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration leg requirements and max wager amount e terms@sportsdual.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gaffbler or visit rg-help for.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York.
- [29:15]
A
Well, the holidays have come and gone once again. But if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year.
- [29:30]
B
What do you have to lose?
- [29:32]
A
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch limited time.
- [29:35]
B
50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required $45 for three months, $90 for six month or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy.
- [29:44]
A
See Terms we all have goals for 2026, but who can help us achieve them? It's hard to find people who are so good at what they do. It's like if you're hiring, how can you find the best people for all the different roles on your team? Easy ziprecruiter and right now you can try it for free@ziprecruiter.com Bomani ZipRecruiter's matching technology works fast to find top talent, so you won't waste time or money. You can find out right away how many job seekers in your area are qualified for your role. In ZipRecruiter's advanced resume database, you can instantly unlock top candidates contact info let ZipRecruiter help you find the best people for all of your roles. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try ZipRecruiter for free. Ziprecruiter.com bomani Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com bomani ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire all right, we are back with Howard Bryant. The book is Kings and Pawns, available in books in bookstores right now. I want to read this one part though, by the way. We didn't get to this earlier, but just the lengths that people will go to lie to themselves. Okay, so this is in advance of the 1947 season where now it's real. Jackie Robinson, the idea of him becoming a major league baseball player. He's been in Montreal for the time period and he lit Montreal on fire. The knots that people will tie themselves into. This is a columnist from Buffalo named Cy Kritzer. And this was his explanation of why Jackie Robinson, even though he lit up the International League, was not going to be a good major league player. There are many around the International League who still believe after watching the Negro star do everything expected of a future major leaguer, that he was playing over his head in 1946, that his crusading zeal to pave the way for other members of his race actually increase his ability in time. Like an old fashioned alarm clock. Such things as inspiration, zeal, order all run down. Robinson won't make the major leagues this coming season was a quote that he had from another manager. The idea was he couldn't actually be good, he just got good to do it for the crew.
- [32:06]
B
That was in January 1947 in the Sporting News, a sort of point counterpoint column. And I was reading that going, my.
- [32:14]
A
Goodness, how'd they get past an editor?
- [32:18]
B
Because the editor was in on it too. The editor was like, yeah, that makes sense. That tracks, that tracks. But once again, the point of it all is in the construction. That chapter. At the beginning, I had decided to have chapter titles. And then at the end I took them out because it all looked a little cluttered. And so that chapter was originally titled the Illusion of Merit. And it was all about how merit was absolutely the last thing that you worried about when it came to Jackie Robinson. If there's one thing that we were certain of, it was he could play. He could play. Even his opponents knew he could play, and Ricky knew he could play. And yet the entire summer of 1946 and in the spring, spring and winter, in the spring of 47, before Ricky had finally officially called him up, was this debate as to whether or not Jackie Robinson could make the grade. When what they were really talking about and didn't have the courage to talk about was whether or not the game wanted him, whether or not white players would play with him, whether or not white fans and even the fans, they came to see him. He was box office. So, like, the white fans that they said wouldn't come, they were actually coming to the ballpark anyway. But it just brings it back to the fact that the game did not want him. And I think that that was one of the motivations for me writing this book was this mythology that April 15, 1947, changed attitudes, it changed the world, it changed how we viewed what was possible from, you know, black people being in the background to black people in the foreground. It's not true. It's not true. People went out of their way to not play this man. And what I wanted to concentrate on wasn't the mythology of it was what is this doing to Jackie on a day to day basis? Like, what is actually happening to him? I know he makes the fans feel good, and I know that there are all kinds of commentaries and stories and books and everything else about that great day when Jackie played in the major leagues. But what was happening to him and what was happening to him was he was becoming more and more and more disillusioned with this country. I'm doing what you're asking me to do and you're still rejecting me. Yeah.
- [34:49]
A
And I think something that I did not quite appreciate until reading this, even having taken in some of the background on this, like, I didn't feel like I was ignorant to Jackie Robinson's time with the Dodgers. But I don't think I had quite an understanding of how. I don't know if begrudged is the right word, but the white folks is a little tired of his guff. The guff. You know, he did his two years of having to put up with it. Then after that, he was a guff fest. Yeah.
- [35:18]
B
He was robust. He was like, I'm not taking it from anybody anymore.
- [35:22]
A
And he also just consistently so, what about this? Right. So I thought you guys were going to work on this. And so the press was interesting in, you know, the, the. The compilations that you have of media opinions of him. And the word exhausting comes up. And this is often the case. I think you and I are both in the. In the spaces in which we inhabited our business. They think it's cool at first.
- [35:42]
B
Yeah.
- [35:43]
A
Till they get tired of it, then.
- [35:44]
B
They don't want to hear it. Exactly. Which is what you're seeing. This is the backlash that you're seeing in the country today. You know, oh, Kaepernick protest. Then they get tired of it. We don't want to hear it anymore. Oh, well, what about this? Well, in other words, be grateful for what you have. It goes back to what Robeson would say, benevolence, not equality. Just be happy we're giving you anything. Be happy you are here. We don't, you know, and that's the whole point. The giving, not the earnings. We're giving you something. You're not earning this. You haven't earned the right to speak. We're giving you the opportunity to be here. And that is a very, very, very different conversation. That's the reason why, when you're in these boardrooms, seen but not heard. And in Jackie's case, when his, you know, when his quiet period ended, he let everybody have it, but he let everybody have it the same way Leo derocha let everybody have it the same way Eddie Stankey let everyone have it the same way. All the other white ball players, you know, same way Ted Williams let everybody have it, but it was different coming from him. And so this also did two things. The first thing it did was it completely continued to disillusion him. The second thing it did, actually did three things. The second thing that it did was it really began to demand that he be good for a long time, because the millisecond that he slipped a little bit, the going to get rid of him, and that is the third thing it did. It created no goodwill for him going forward. It was. The feeling was mutual that as Much as we talk about Jackie Robinson, and he's got a freeway in New York named after him in schools, and he's on a stamp and the whole thing. By the time Jackie was ready to retire, they couldn't wait to get rid of him. Baseball had been trying to get rid of the Dodgers had been trying out, especially after Branch Rickey had left to go to the Pirates in 1950. The Dodgers couldn't wait to get rid of him. They were tired of all his mouth, tired of him fighting about integration, tired of him going on radio and saying that the Yankees were a racist organization, tired of asking how come these teams haven't integrated. I've been here a decade. They were tired of all of it. And it really did have great consequences on him going forward. Jackie only got like, you got to get 75% to get into the hall of Fame. Jackie got 77%. Wasn't like he was 90, you know, unanimous. And we talk about it like it's unanimous. It was not unanimous.
- [38:10]
A
309 out of 10 seasons, struggle.
- [38:15]
B
He was the best second baseman of all time. By the time he retired and the Dodgers were tired of him, they, you know, he had no relationship after Charlie Dressen left and Walter Alston took over. He had no allies. And what do we know? You need advocates in that game. And so, you know, and then Jackie found out as well, once he retired. Now he's going to go full time into civil rights. And what's he finding? He's finding out that race is just the topic for the white allies that he thought he had. All these other things were more important. And so he was frustrated there. And so he. So the disillusionment was like, you're not really about it. And you put me up there in front of Congress to talk about equality and what was possible in the United States, and you're not really about it. And he stood tall for a lot of those years. And then once he stood tall, you had this new generation of activists who were like, you're just Uncle Tom. You know, you're not about it. Right. And so Jackie was really sort of caught on both sides here. And he's a fascinating, fascinating study because he exemplifies the battles that we all go through. How do you navigate this?
- [39:41]
A
In the end, he wound up in so many ways, being a man without a country and with a question. Another one that you and I discussed for a while, which is how possible it is to be a black conservative and not. Not end up in the territory of sellout. Like it's hard to make the argument about Jackie Robinson that he was just a toady for the white man. Right? Like, it's just there's. There's a lot of data on the other side. He also was. And this is before it just became a completely foreign thought that this could happen. But he was absolutely a black Republican. He supported Nixon in 1960, which he came to regret. But his argument was that he really thought that people. One thing to note about Richard Nixon is that at this time, he was seen by black people as one of the good ones. And that he. Robinson, firmly believed that John F. Kennedy did not care about black people at all, that he had no concern for civil rights or whatever. But by the time you get through the 1960s, Robinson is a voice within the Republican Party still talking about race. And they don't want to hear any of this. They got Goldwater out here in 1964. Like, Nelson Rockefeller wound up being his guy. And there's a great story, and I never had it made by Jackie Robinson, about how Rockefeller started kicking it with Reagan. And Jackie was like, hey, man, I gotta go talk to this man about this, because I don't think this Reagan dude is good news. And he goes and tells Rockefeller, you know, I got some questions about Reagan. And he says, funny, he said the same thing about you. That's the world that Jackie Robinson was in. And then you look around and it's like, where are your allies? You're on the wrong side. You're living in New York City. You're on the wrong side of Malcolm X. You know, through that, through the time period where that was irrelevant piece of information everywhere it went. He was a little too strident for the right wing of this country and not quite strident enough for the left wing of it.
- [41:35]
B
That's right. And he recognized the association with Nixon was a very clear one. Sports fan, two Californians, and Nixon. For everything else you might want to say about Richard Nixon, he wasn't rich, he wasn't a Kennedy. Kennedy was. You want to talk about coastal elite. So Jackie identified more with Nixon, and there was a sort of a mutual admiration there. And Jackie was also an old. He was part of an old school tradition of black politics that doesn't exist anymore, which was this idea that both parties, that we needed both parties, that we needed to have a voice in both parties. In 1932, before the New Deal, before FDR takes over, black people identified almost 50, 50 with both parties. That's unheard of now. It's like it's 98% democrat, democratic leaning. And so the idea that you needed to have a representation in both parties, Jackie held strong to that. Even though he says he was an independent, he leaned conservative, he's from a conservative family. And by 1963, when now you're starting, you're really getting into the civil rights movement. You've got Medgarreva's and you've got the bombings in Birmingham. You've got everything going on there. Robinson's people in the GOP are like, yeah, nah, not for us. And Robinson was really, really angry about two things. One, he was angry that even earlier in 57 he was sending telegrams. And how great is it for him to have a direct line to the White House saying, hey, you gotta do something in Arkansas, you gotta do something in Little Rock. Crickets. And then when it came to MLK being, you know, the, you know, in the Birmingham jail, Nixon didn't make the call. And he's like, these people aren't listening to me. And then he writes a piece in the Saturday Evening Post titled the GOP for White Men only. And for it he was destroyed by William F. Buckley, who is now, once again, it's the, this is the new Republican Party and this is 60 years ago. And so you could see that man without a Country is absolutely accurate for Robinson because he had one other problem. He also didn't understand the politics of it, didn't know that you're here to be Jackie Robinson. We're not here to listen to you. You're here to be seen, not heard. And anyone who would think that doesn't know anything about Jackie Robinson.
- [44:31]
A
And on the other side was Paul Robeson, who was literally rendered a man without a country, an honest to God enemy of the United States of America, at least in the eyes of J. Edgar Hoover, in the eyes of the huac, in the eyes of everyone else. And it culminates to a point of something that I thought was interesting you talked about in the book. I was aware of Robeson having his passport revoked. I was not aware that there was just a person who was in charge.
- [45:00]
B
Of that one person, Ruth Shipley. Can you imagine the power that this non elected person that no one has ever heard of, had complete control over who got to travel, who didn't, who was issued a passport, who wasn't, and that she was essentially an extremely powerful wing of anti progressive forces that not just Robeson, but a lot of left leaning people. Du Bois took his passport for eight years. Robeson's passport held for eight years and we talk about cancel culture today. This is actually cancel culture, that this is what. What was done to Paul Robeson. We talk about where we are in this country today. So much of what is taking place right now in terms of loyalty oaths, in terms of the assault on higher education, the, you know, weaponizing. Weaponizing education, weaponizing the government against these, you know, political beliefs that Paul Robeson had his passport taken away from him for being a liberal, progressive American just for his political beliefs. He refused to sign an affidavit saying he was not a member of the Communist Party, not because he was a member of the Communist Party, but because you're not supposed to do that here. So here's somebody who's being called un American. And one of the things that he's doing is he's leaning on the premises of being an American. Isn't this what being an American means? And for that, lost his passport for eight years, lost his right to travel, lost his ability, because while he's not allowed to travel, he wasn't even allowed to go to American territories. He couldn't go to Puerto Rico. He couldn't go to Hawaii. He couldn't go to Alaska. He couldn't go anywhere. He couldn't drive to Canada, where you don't need a passport. The government ordered or asked the Canadian government to stop Robeson at the border. He was not allowed to leave the country simply for his political beliefs.
- [47:08]
A
And they were terrified that he goes to these other places and that people.
- [47:12]
B
Listen to him and they told him, yeah, that's right.
- [47:15]
A
Same time, the government. There's a great documentary called Soundtrack to a Coup d'. Etat. It does not necessarily achieve all its goals of, like, connecting jazz to this counterinsurgency movement that the State Department was enacting all over the globe, but it makes it very clear that they were sending people around the world to black people to give a positive voice to the experience of blackness in America. And they were terrified that the uncontrollable Paul Robeson was going to go all these other places and be like, man, that ain't it at all.
- [47:44]
B
Well, you go one step further than that, Bo, actually, in that when you have, you know, when you see Draymond Green out there going to, you know, going to Israel, and when you see these black athletes flying around the world doing these goodwill missions, the root of that program was specifically and written to counter the voice of Paul Robeson. That's why they exist. They exist to this day to stop him, to stop his voice, to shout down his voice that there are. And there are government memos saying, certainly there are other prominent African Americans that we can show, because the Africans who were in the middle of these anti colonial movements, these independence movements that were taking place at the exact same time of the civil rights movement, who are they listening to? They're listening to Robeson. They're listening to Du Bois. They're listening to the more radical voices that are really telling you what is happening here. And in order for Robeson to get his passport back, he was told he had to do two things. The first thing he had to do was he had to sign an affidavit saying he was not a member of the Communist Party, which he refused. And the second thing he had to do was they said, if we allow you to travel, you have to promise us that you will make no political commentary in any of your public appearances. And he refused that as well. And what was crazy about it all is that once the Supreme Court, now you've got the Warren Court in 1958, finally striking Ruth Shipley down and striking down this completely illegal, unconstitutional edict that they get to decide that you can't. That you can be barred from travel for your political beliefs. Once that happened, nobody cared. Robeson got his passport back, Rockwell Kent got his passport back. Du Bois got his passport back. And then life went on. There was no introspection of what had we just done, what have we done to each other? Which is very similar to what I see happening now. People aren't saying, what are we doing? Like, really sitting down going, who are we? And what is this really all about? And to me, that was the. Every time I was working on a chapter, I'm like, oh, this sounds like today.
- [50:03]
A
Yeah, this was, to me, very similar Slow Burn as Slate. Josh Levine did one on David Duke, and it was very clear that it was really about Donald Trump. Right. Like where you read and you're like, oh, these are direct parallels. The parallels to today in this were very clear with Robeson. The one thing I want to talk about, and Robeson's relationship with the Soviet Union in Russia is one that I will save for people, for the book, because it is really complex and strangely heartbreaking. That would be strangely. But in the way it all plays out, you just like. It's kind of like when you get to the end of Animal Farm and the pigs on two legs. Like that happened to Paul Robeson in real life when it came to the Soviet Union. But we talked about this a little bit earlier. It is amazing how famous Paul Robeson was. And the decision was made very clearly to erase him from American life in his life and in his death. Like the idea that I would say 75 to 80% of the people who are listening to this are like, so tell me more about this Robeson guy. You'll go into his Wiki page for the first time. You'll watch some of these documentaries for the first time. And it's truly not that long ago that he was the most famous black man in the world.
- [51:08]
B
That's right. And the guy that I always think about when we have these conversations is Spike Lee.
- [51:14]
A
Hold on one second. Let me make another point on that that I think is important. It be your own people. It's not just the white people made him disappear. How many Black History Month programs have you been to that spoke to the legacy of Paul Robeson? I don't even know if they was doing it like that in Philly and New Jersey. Right. The decision was made to sacrifice honestly the man. And nobody in his position that I could think of had ever fought harder for us.
- [51:42]
B
That's right.
- [51:43]
A
And we just tossed him.
- [51:44]
B
And on top of that. Well, once again. And that is the power of the Red scare. That's the power of the times. The decision was made. In fact, when you're dealing with the Hollywood 10, and you're going to all of these actors and actresses out there, the decision had been made in a wonderful book called Naming Names by Victor Nowski, who just passed away about a year ago. A couple of years ago, the decision had been made. Okay, Lena Horne, we're not after you. Okay. Ruby D. Okay, Ossie Davis, Harry Belafonte, we're not after you. If you give us Robeson. And Paul Robeson is the inspiration for all of them. There's not a black stage performer that has not followed in Paul Robeson's footsteps, including Denzel Washington, who played Othello, who did. Who has done everything that Robeson had done. I mean, this is the guy. He's the godfather of all of this. James Earl Jones, Keith David, Andre Brower, all of them. And so it was a tactical decision. Give us Robeson, one of the great giants of the civil rights movement, Bayard Rustin, said in The Marty Duberman 1989 Robeson biography, Titanic book as well, after Robeson gave the Paris speech in 1949, that the NAACP and the Black establishment gathered to say, what's the strategy to sacrifice him? And I don't necessarily. And you were asking about this earlier, how we feel about all this.
- [53:16]
A
Yeah.
- [53:16]
B
Was it impossible? People don't realize how disqualifying being associated with the Communist Party was in the 1950s. I understand that completely daily. But did you have to pile on? Like, did you have to. Silence was not an option.
- [53:31]
A
But did you. Did you literally have to work in concert with the State Department?
- [53:35]
B
With the State Department?
- [53:35]
A
And I think that's the part that struck me was the. It wasn't just a, hey, man, maybe we can do a little something here, you know, maybe. No, no, no, no, no. Y' all was in it together.
- [53:47]
B
Together and in it together. And it was the media, too. I mean, EBONY did a piece on has Paul Robeson Betrayed the Negro? Paul Robeson. But once again, one of the hardest things about doing history and one of the hardest things about trying to do it well, especially is recognizing that 1951 is not 2026. You have to be able to put yourself in. In that world. And some of the comps, to me would be something similar to when Kaepernick was like, all right, who's with me? And guys are looking at their paychecks and looking at their contracts. Or on college campuses today, when people are walking around pro Palestine going, who's with me? And you got all these college presidents going, okay, whoever's with you ain't going to be here very long. So the price is everything. And I think the most important thing to remember about then versus now is these guys didn't have any real money. We're not talking about these guys being multi millionaires and lacking courage because they're, you know, because they're set for life. Paul Robeson went from making $125,000 a year in 1949 to making $2,000. I mean, that's real money. I mean, you are sacrificing literally your entire livelihood.
- [55:19]
A
Also, Robeson, from the book, I thought this was such a great passage where he's like, those who stood by Paul Robeson. This is from after his death. Those who stood by Paul Robeson saw no need for reappraisal because their belief in him had never waned. The tallest tree in the forest, the great forerunner, citizen of the world. He had provided shade for those with his commitment and values. And in return, he. He received their protection, gratitude and veneration along with many others. And remembers Robeson, one letter to the editor in particular appeared as an indictment of society and the individuals who only now, too late understood the true scope of Robeson. And as Jackie Robinson would describe it when recalling his own part of Robeson's Downfall, America's destructiveness, as one letter would say of Robeson. He wasn't mentioned in history books like Nathan Hale. He wasn't mentioned on football game broadcasts like Red Grange. He wasn't mentioned in dramatic reviews like Barrymore. He wasn't mentioned by opera critics like Caruso, the man who was never mentioned, despite the fact that he truly excelled, not in one of the above fields, but in all of them. Like, I remember when he finally got in the College Football hall of Fame, it was in the 1990s, and it was just kind of mentioned. I remember Chris Fowler being like, you know, Paul Robeson. It was a big deal back in the day, kind of, sort of. And I didn't.
- [56:30]
B
Which, by the way, Bomani Jones was based at Rutgers.
- [56:35]
A
Yes, yes. His alma mater. Just so everybody's clear. Exactly. And look, I knew. I knew of Robinson as a name, but I did not realize how insane it was. Like, I thought it was maybe like. Because I didn't think it was an act as an athlete. Right. It was maybe like, oh, they just finally got around to that. You know, that happens sometimes with a Hall of Fame. No, they just weren't doing it. The NAACP took them off the list of Spingarn medal winners. They just decided to act like the man wasn't here.
- [57:02]
B
Yeah, they never officially took him up, but they never mentioned him as a winner. In fact, when Jackie Robinson won in 56, when they named him in 56 as a Spingone winner, they said he was the first athlete to be awarded the medal. Robeson played in college football and in the NFL, and he won it in 1945. So this is an erasing. I mean, this is an active erasing. You have to work at this. And in 1951, they were not afraid. I mean, the College Football hall of Fame committee had said in 1950, I think it was 51, that they did not consider Paul Robeson because of his communist affiliations. They just came out and said it. So we are actively erasing you, but when you say it, be your own people. Did we have to do that, too?
- [57:54]
A
Right.
- [57:54]
B
And that's where I put Spike Lee in there as one of the most important figures. You know, I know I got you by a few years, but if you think about who Malcolm x was in 1988, 89, he's a villain. He's shaped by white people. He's shaped by white America. He was shaped. And we weren't even taught Malcolm X in schools at any level. You take Spike Lee and all the merch and the movies and the hats and everything else. And then you take hip hop with it. You take Chuck D and KRS1 with it and all the Afrocentric black movement, you know, hip hop movement. That's what revived Malcolm X. That's what reclaimed Malcolm X to us, which made him ours. You know, I mean, because before that, Malcolm X was public enemy number one.
- [58:46]
A
I'll tell you this, too. We don't. It's. It's happened gradually. We don't talk about it, which is the slow erasure of Jackie Robinson when they. I can't remember exactly what it was, but was it the mentions of Jackie Robinson in the Defense Department and all that stuff and taking those sorts of things back year by year? They still do Jackie Robinson Day in Major League Baseball, but Jackie Robinson is very much a bullet boomer hero. The boomers did a great job of canonizing the events of their time, but now that they're getting older, we don't see that. We don't see that stuff necessarily being continued. Right.
- [59:20]
B
Well, that's right. Well, how can you continue it when the players aren't there either?
- [59:24]
A
Right.
- [59:24]
B
So Jackie Robinson Day is a day that celebrated, not a time that's celebrated.
- [59:29]
A
Yes.
- [59:29]
B
You know, it's something that is in the past. It's not something that is present. Because, you know, the 6.5% black players in the game now.
- [59:38]
A
Yeah. Well, think about this. Jerry Stackhouse wore number 42 in the NBA as a tribute to Jackie Robinson. Like, Jackie Robinson still loomed large in my 20s.
- [59:49]
B
That's right.
- [59:49]
A
As like, as a, as a significant historical figure in sports and in America. I don't know what Jackie Robinson means to you at this point if you're 15. Because he did mean something to us when we were 15.
- [60:02]
B
100%.
- [60:02]
A
Like, I don't have to go explain to people who Jackie Robinson is. And I feel like in 10 years, you will.
- [60:06]
B
You may have to. And that is also the reason why. And this is. I'm sure this is another conversation for another podcast, but this is the reason why you have to protect your own stories and tell your own stories. And if you don't have access, if you don't have the agency of your own history, your history is going to disappear. Not maybe kind of might disappear, will disappear. It's going. You're watching it erode right now. And that erosion isn't simply the idea of, well, you know, you got to talk about some ideas that you, you know, that you like. It's also if the doors are open to tell those stories because we're still not in control. Publishing wise of which stories get greenlit.
- [60:50]
A
Kings and Pawns, Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America. This book right here, you can go get it anywhere that they sell these books. And I'm telling you, I've read many of Howard's books. This is the best one that I've read so far. And as much as the material sounds heavy, I'm telling you, I ran through this in a day and a half like it is a technical masterpiece. In that sense, it is an easy read. It is a consumable read. There are very few wasted words in it. I highly, highly, highly recommend you go check it out. And you guys know me, I'm not telling you to go read something just because my partner wrote it. This is something that I think is important for people to check out, and I hope you get a chance to. To give it a read. Kings and Paul's Howard Bryant, my brother, I appreciate you and best of luck with this, man. You did that.
- [61:31]
B
Thank you, man. My pleasure. It's always fun to be able to tell stories that you think are important. We don't always. We take it for granted. Don't take it for granted.
- [61:42]
A
There we go. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here. On the right time. We do this four times a week. Ryan Brumley handled everything behind the scenes. Thank you, sir. Remember, hit our voicemail live. 323-596-7767. And remember, follow the right time. Subscribe like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. And we'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.