← The Right Time with Bomani Jones
The Right Time with Bomani Jones
Howard Bryant on Pro Football Hall of Fame Debates, Why voters get it WRONG | 02.13
00:56:00
Loading summary
Transcript222 lines
- [00:01]
A
Where's your playlist taking you? Down the highway to the mountains or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in Traffic? With over 4,000 hotels worldwide, Best Western is there to help you make the most of your getaway, wherever that is. Because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western, Best book, Direct and save@bestwestern.com residence.
- [00:31]
B
Day savings are happening now at the Home Depot with up to 40% off select appliances. Looking to upgrade your Fridge? Check out LG's newest model, serving up ice in all kinds of styles. Cubed crushed craft ice and now new mini craft ice straight from the dispenser. From cold brew to fizzy favorites, these refrigerators will have you entertaining like a pro. Shop president's day savings and get up to 40% off plus free delivery on select appliances like LG at the home Depot. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $1,498 or more. Offer valid February 5th through the 25th. US only. See store online for details.
- [01:06]
C
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Right Time, A Wave original. My name is Bomani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube, subscribe like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is a Hall of Fame Friday with Howard Bryant. I guess I need to explain what I meant, but first, how what's going on?
- [01:29]
D
Hey, man, how we looking?
- [01:30]
C
Hey, man, we all good, man. All right, so the NFL hall of Fame vote was last week. We got with Drew Brees, we got Larry Fitzgerald, we got Adam Ventieri, we got Luke Keakley, and we have Roger Craig. And I am a little bit younger than Howard, but we have a lot of overlap in our sporting experience. And 1980s football is a fair overlap. I don't have the particular detail, detailed knowledges of everything, but I know enough to have a conversation about it and sent Howard a text that said, roger Craig ain't no hall of Fame.
- [02:09]
D
It may not have been how many seconds later?
- [02:12]
C
Yeah, yeah. Boom. Now the phone call comes, what you got against Roger Craig? And my point simply was, and I think it gets tricky for me because once we get these veteran committees, we're just kind of being to a degree nice to people. But if in the last 30 years you didn't really get a consensus on this and he and Craig was not a case like Drew Pearson was like Some other players where every year would be like, so isn't this going to be the year? Is this going to be the year? We hadn't even really been talking about Roger Craig. Like, somebody would get cute on the Internet and bring him up as an example. And he is the first running back with a thousand yards rushing and receiving in the same year. As a guy, think about the 49ers throwing it around all the time. But he's a dude that's had seasons with 300 something carries, all of that stuff. But I didn't know this was something that we even had on the board was Roger Craig in the hall of Fame. And then next thing I know, I bet Sean Alexander mad than a motherfucker right now. I got mvp. Yeah.
- [03:09]
D
And, and also he was somebody for me where I was sort of like, why wasn't he in consideration? Because at that time, you know, it's a conversation about revolution, right? I mean, if you, if you're of that age and I'm of that age where you saw the Bill Walsh offense for the first time, it was like watching the 2014 warriors for the first time, you're like, what is this is. Oh, you mean you're not going to do a third nine draw play anymore? You mean you're going to throw on first down? I mean, it's a revolution, right? And so. But that revolution doesn't look very sexy right now because everybody does it, right?
- [03:49]
C
It's like listening to Chuck Berry now.
- [03:51]
D
Exactly. Like, well, what's the big hoo ha about this? Right? And so Roger Craig begets Marshall Falk, begets Christian McCaffrey. Right? I mean, he's the original guy who's actually, oh, a running back that when you throw the ball to him, it's not going to hit him in the helmet, right? I mean, that he's an actual receiver. And so, you know, I mean, to me, this conversation in the phone call you and I were having about this opened up two things. The first thing, football's just different. Football's hall of Fame is different from all the other hall of Fames. Basketball hall of Fame, you get in the minute you learn how to dribble. Baseball's hall, you know, baseball's hall of Fame is. Baseball's hall of Fame is very, very, very writer slash, stat driven. And then it's score settling driven. Football, Football's hall of Fame is this shrouded mystery. It's this thing where it is stat based, but not kind of really sort of stat based because you've got that massive division of labor. But it's also the most non nostalgic of the hall of Fames, because there are guys, when you think about modern day football. And the modern day football is the super bowl era. Okay, you can add a couple of years for Lombardi before that or Jim Brown 64, but basically we're talking about the super bowl era. Post merger football is the modern day football. And the guys who built this game, the signature guys who built that era.
- [05:23]
C
They got no love.
- [05:26]
D
I mean, none. And so that was really, for me, it was like when I start thinking about the lanes. Football's lanes to entry are very, very different than everybody else's.
- [05:37]
C
There are 22 people on the field every play in football, they let in like five dudes a year. Like, it's a. It's a tough, tough room now. Like, basketball is the room that's shrouded in the most mystery. We know really next to nothing about the basketball process.
- [05:56]
D
There's no criteria because it's the basketball hall of Fame, not the NBA hall of Fame.
- [05:59]
E
Yeah.
- [05:59]
C
And it's. They'll let anybody in there. Like, pretty good is the standard. Like, when people start telling me that somebody is not a basketball hall of Famer, I could. And look, I can have that happen for me on, for me with certain people, right? For example, for me, Reggie Miller, not a Hall of Famer, but in that basketball hall of Fame. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. He's. Yeah, yeah, we let him in. We let him in. Like, I ask you this. You're a Boston guy. Dennis Johnson is Dennis Johnson. Like, did you see him as a Hall of Famer or just an excellent player?
- [06:37]
D
DJ Was a Hall of Famer to me. And the reason he was a Hall, once again, right? There are lanes to basketball that there aren't for football. And Roger Craig is one of the first guys who crosses lanes. And what I mean by lanes is if you were part of something special, right? You get hall of Fame dispensation for being part of it. Football is so individualistic. Like, look at the Boston Celtics. Everybody on those rosters are all hall of Famers. Like, all of them. Satch Sanders is in the Hall. They're all in the hall of Fame because they were part of it.
- [07:11]
C
Well, Casey Jones average, what, like eight points a game or something like that?
- [07:14]
D
But Casey Jones is one of the guys who, you know, who is one of those prototypes, the big, you know, the big defensive guard, which is Dennis Johnson. And those guys, you know, Sidney Moncrief and Paul Pressy. And all those types of players, they go back to Oscar Robertson and Casey Jones, but Casey Jones came before Oscar Robertson. And so although Oscar was a far, far better player, he's an offensive player as well. But what my point is is that basketball finds lanes for those types of players. Basketball will have there's like three or four lanes for basketball.
- [07:49]
C
That.
- [07:49]
D
Lane number one, you were just a great player. That's lane number one, you balled out. Lane number two, you were the best at your position. Lane number three, you were a signature player. You were somebody that was, that was critical to the way people come to the sport. Lane number four, you were part of something special. You were on six championship teams, you were on seven championship teams or whatever. So there are all these different lanes that you get in basketball. And to swing it all the way back, Roger Craig is a signature member of a dynasty. And in football that doesn't seem to count that much. And it certainly didn't seem to count to you.
- [08:29]
C
I mean. Nah, not really. If we go. Be perfectly honest, I did not. I think that's what jersey retirements are for. Yeah, right. Like, I think that there are levels at which you can credit a lot of these guys that I think are very, very, very significant honors. Now, to be fair to Craig on this, and I did not realize this because I had my years mixed up, he was the starting running back on three super bowl teams. Right. So I was thinking of him more in the, like Dwight Clark, class of that dynasty that was on two of the teams because the only players that were on all four, as I remember, Joe Montana, Ronnie Lott, Kena Turner, Eric Wright, and I think there might be one more guy. But it was, I mean even in that, in the no free agency era like this, there, there was turnover in, in between on what all of these were. I felt like Craig had a career like he's got what that one year where he was lights out where he had 1500 yards rushing and the year where, where he had the thousand and a thousand. It was like a thousand and a thousand. It's 1050 and 1016 and then one other thousand yard season. Like if I pull up his page, what do they say in baseball? It doesn't have much black ink, the.
- [09:47]
D
Black ink on it. And then also let's also not forget that if you're going to, and if you're going to analyze football stats, the difference between a thousand yard rusher has not, it has changed dramatically, but the milestone hasn't. A thousand yards was a 14 game thousand yard yes. A thousand yards in a 16 game is 66 yards a game. Right.
- [10:09]
C
It's kind of like the term millionaire.
- [10:10]
D
That's right.
- [10:11]
C
Right. We did.
- [10:13]
D
When.
- [10:13]
C
When. When money costs something different. Right. Um, the other thing for me in talking about him is there is a big gap between him and, say, Eric Dickerson.
- [10:25]
D
Yep. Right.
- [10:26]
C
When I think of, like, who are the hall of Fame running backs that you associate with the 1980s? Walter Payton still gets in. Right. He was still very good for the majority of the 1980s. Marcus Allen. There's a gap between Marcus Allen and Roger Craig. And so it's like.
- [10:42]
D
Okay, different backs, though, right? I mean, different.
- [10:44]
C
Yeah, different backs. But they're still even with their stylistic differences. But I'm telling you to pick one.
- [10:50]
D
Yes. And so the counter to that. If there's a counter to that, and I don't think there necessarily is one in your mind is, are there different layers of hall of Fame? And when I get to. And that leads me into baseball, I remember one day. And yes, you'll laugh at this, but one day walking into Legends Field during spring training. And here is Mr. October, Reggie Jackson. It had to be 02, I think. And here's Reggie Jackson. And Reggie's walking in, and I remember this like it was yesterday. The big dogs, the A list hall of Famers, they kind of treat the B and C list hall of Famers. It's not a. You know, once you're in, you're all the same level, but you're not really all the same level. So Reggie walks in, and Gary Carter, I believe, had just gotten in. I think it was Gary Carter. I have to check that, but I think it was Gary Carter. And he walks over to Roger. There's Clemens sitting there. Big Roger Clemens. 64250. Roger. Right. Who, by the way, at that time, did not even want to be called Roger. He wanted to be called Rocket. And so. And I just love being asked, you know, asking people to call you by your nickname that shouldn't seem to, like, that's either organic or you got a problem.
- [12:12]
C
Right.
- [12:13]
D
And so Reggie walks up. So now here are the two gods sitting there. Reggie and Roger Clemens. And he's like, gary Carter. Meh. And Roger's like, meh. Right.
- [12:26]
C
Who's not even in the hall of Fame.
- [12:28]
D
And by the way. And that's the thing, is that, oh, if we could only move the clock forward, Roger, your destiny is taking its turn.
- [12:37]
C
You know what I mean?
- [12:38]
D
This ain't gonna end the way you think it's gonna End right now, Roger. But at that time he was a no doubter. Right. And he walked around like a no doubter. And so. So, yeah. So, yeah. So to me, yeah, I don't think Roger Craig would put himself in Walter Payton category, but that doesn't mean he's not a Hall of Famer.
- [13:00]
C
Yeah, I think it's interesting. It is also interesting because the discussion around him really comes up because of who didn't get in was Bill Belichick.
- [13:09]
D
Right.
- [13:09]
C
Like he comes up because of the Belichick and then the craft thing. And I'm sure we'll get to more about that later. But when you start hearing the voters explain why they did it, and it's always interesting when the machine learns, which is something I don't think we talk enough about in the hall of Fame process. Because this is the same thing that also happens when the AP Vol. AP poll had effects on things like the bcs is that the voters no longer looked at their ballot as simply what their opinion was going into the poll. They started thinking their vote out in terms of how it would affect what all the long run consequences were. Right. The machine has now learned and it kind of changes.
- [13:45]
D
Yeah. And one other big piece of that too is the cyberbullying that comes with it.
- [13:49]
C
Right, Right. But. But it is, it has changed the way, like, say, another thing for people to consider. Right. So it is now changed. It is. It. It is a chemical change to the way things are voted for in this case. A lot of voters explained that they felt like they could vote for Belichick a little bit later. But this is your last chance to, to vote for Roger Craig. And so, hey, you know what? I just got to feel like voting for Roger Craig right at once. These votes are very important. But also you have like the swing voter situation where the only vote that really matters is the one that turns it over. And so your vote kind of counts, but not really. So people could do all kinds of weird shit with it and then not realize it's the Eddie Murphy routine about voting for Jesse Jackson.
- [14:31]
D
Right.
- [14:31]
C
We're going to vote for Jesse Jackson. What do you mean? What do you mean he fucking won? Right. Like, it's those same sorts of things. And so a big part of why Roger Craig is in the hall of Fame is the reason a lot of things happen, which is somebody wanted it to be that way. And I think you and I tapped into a big part of why they wanted it to. And you mentioned you alluded to it a little bit earlier. It's rather surprising how few of those 49ers are in the hall of Fame.
- [14:55]
D
Well, that's right. And especially because of the division of labor on which side of the ball. Right. And it's changing, and I think it's okay for things to change because the longer you get away from history, then the more the game shifts. And the 49ers are very, very special. That group is very, very special in San Francisco because that's the group that turned them into the 49ers as we see them. The 49ers are not that different from the Patriots in terms of. They weren't as bungling as the Patriots, but they were going to lose.
- [15:31]
C
Right?
- [15:31]
D
I mean, they were good. You know, they lost the Cowboys 71. That's the one that everyone talks about. You know, they had their moments, but they were going to lose. They were the 49ers. And then all of a sudden, Joe Montana and Bill Walsh and suddenly they win, and now they're a different team. And people look at that, those foundational championship teams, and you're going to have that conversation, you know, when it comes Warrior time. Right. Draymond Green and Andre Iguodala and Clay Thompson.
- [16:02]
C
That's gonna be the one, is Andre Iguodala.
- [16:04]
D
How many members of that team are getting in?
- [16:09]
C
And so the thing that comes up with that for me and with the 49ers and as I run this, if anybody. If I get it wrong, then I'm sure somebody in the chat will say it. But off the top of my head, and you and I broke this down, really, the 81 to 94 run.
- [16:23]
D
Right.
- [16:23]
C
We will throw in the fifth. The fifth championship we'll throw.
- [16:26]
D
I would actually go to 92 because that's the Montana era.
- [16:29]
C
Yeah. I'm about to say. Yeah. Once you get to 94, it is. That is a different team. That team is not the same as the ones before. Just.
- [16:37]
D
That's right.
- [16:37]
C
A similar head coach situation. It's Montana that's in. Ronnie Lott is in. I think we will put Charles Haley, who kind of gets to be on. Get to get. He kind of gets to be Dennis Rodman.
- [16:50]
D
Yeah.
- [16:50]
C
He's football. Right. He's part of. He's part of two different. Of these dynasties that were in conflict with one another, with each other.
- [16:56]
D
That's.
- [16:58]
C
They're in. Craig is now in. Is that it?
- [17:04]
D
Depending on how you feel about the fullback position. Yeah. I mean, Tom Rathman, he's not a Hall of Famer.
- [17:09]
C
No, no, no, no.
- [17:10]
D
The way we see him.
- [17:11]
C
I'm talking about actually.
- [17:12]
D
Actually in. Yeah, that's it. That's it, though.
- [17:16]
C
They won four Super Bowls in nine years. Those are the only guys. And we are, for purposes of this discussion, we are not counting Steve Young.
- [17:26]
D
Well, that's right. And he shouldn't be counted at that time. Yeah. Because one, he wasn't on the 70, the. You know, the 81 team. Yeah.
- [17:33]
C
But even if he had popped in like Roger Craig did, he. He wasn't. What. He got in. In 94. This is not like he. He gets in after the time period that we're talking about. I'm just hitting it off because I know how these people be acting in the comments.
- [17:46]
D
That is true. You forgot he was on the bench, but you forgot him.
- [17:49]
C
Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we doing. That's what. But no, that feels weird to say. And I mean, Eddie DeBartolo, if you want to get into the whole putting owners in the hall of Fame thing, that isn't. That doesn't make sense.
- [18:03]
D
It does, though. For. For football. How many Patriots are. How many Patriots are getting in? How many. Well, Steelers are very well represented. We counted that out. But how many Cowboys. I mean, we talk about the signature Cowboys. The signature Cowboys of the seventies.
- [18:18]
C
You. You made.
- [18:20]
D
Drew Pearson had to wait forever.
- [18:22]
C
Yeah.
- [18:23]
D
Too Tall is not in signature player.
- [18:25]
C
No. To Rayfield. Rayfield Wright had to wait forever to get in. Well, I guess it. I guess what I'm saying is it does make sense. It is interesting, and this is something we had talked about that I think people lose sight, or at least for me, this is a big thing. I think it is. I think it's very debatable whether or not Klay Thompson is a basketball hall of Famer.
- [18:46]
D
Yeah. That's wild. I gotta leave you. I gotta. I can throw you a or, but I ain't joining you on that rap.
- [18:51]
C
I believe. I believe that he is a Hall of Famer only in the context in which he is making the hall of Fame. Right.
- [18:57]
D
I don't.
- [18:57]
C
I don't. I think that. I don't feel like.
- [18:59]
D
Is Draymond a Hall of Famer then by that rationale?
- [19:01]
C
So Draymond is very interesting because I am. I am more inclined to say that I find him. I find him to be more singular than I find Klay Thompson to be.
- [19:10]
D
Right.
- [19:10]
C
I think Klay Thompson had a somewhat singular ability at a thing where Draymond Green is a one of one player. Right.
- [19:18]
D
Interesting. But by the way, I'm go Ahead, Bo.
- [19:21]
C
But the, and in Iguodala, I just do it, I believe, is a Hall of Famer. The real point for me is that I feel like during the, during the warriors run, we would talk about where the warriors are so good because they have three hall of Famers and they got Kevin Durant, who's an obvious hall of Famer. And it's like, well, they're so good because they have four hall of Famers. And I'm like, no, I think we're working backwards here. We are saying that in order for a team, because if you went and look historically, the teams that were champions overwhelmingly had X numbers of hall of Famers. What I think then happens is we then ascribe a Hall of Fame status to players who are on championship teams because our brains say, in order to be a champion, you have to have this many hall of Famers, when in reality it was these teams had this many hall of Fame, had this many hall of Famers. But they're also teams that had three hall of Famers that weren't champions. Right? We say Klay Thompson and Draymond Green have to be hall of Famers. But what we're also saying and don't realize it as someone who's made this mistake himself, we're underrating the greatness of Steph Curry, right? Like, did you have to have all those hall of Famers, or was that guy just so good that he counts as two hall of Famers by himself? There is a very prominent basketball player who tells people when nobody's listening or when, when the microphones aren't that Michael Jordan so good. He went into hall of Fame as Michael Jordan and Scotty Pip. You know what I mean?
- [20:41]
D
One of the things, like, I, I, I am a voter for two hall of Fames, two Halls of Fame. Well, I was, I, I get rid of my baseball vote, but I was eligible Baseball hall of Fame voter and tennis hall of Fame voter. And football is very different because as part of my baseball criteria, I believe that you are, there's, there's dominance and longevity. These are the two main lanes for baseball. Football longevity cannot really be part of it, especially if you're a running back. If you're Gail Sayers and you play six years or you're a Terrell Davis, I mean, those peaks are so high and those injuries come so fast. And then you look at certain guys, which is the thing that perplexed me is that then we penalize some of these guys for longevity in a sport where longevity is a Luxury. It's not even a luxury. It's a rarity. It's a unicorn. Oh, you know, Frank Gore is a compiler. Damn right he's a compiler. You last out there that many years at that position with that much pounding, I mean, so I do wonder about how we look at yards when it comes to that individual position. It almost seems like you have to be dominant for your small stretch of time as your main lane instead of having longevity also be a main lane.
- [22:04]
C
Yeah. Like, I think Frank Gore's thing is tricky because he is treated as a compiler, but his biggest problem is in the early portion of his career. And running backs are like power pitchers in baseball. They, they, they, they really rack it up early.
- [22:21]
D
Right.
- [22:23]
C
He's playing for bad teams.
- [22:24]
D
Playing for bad teams.
- [22:25]
C
So he actually wasn't in a position to truly compile because they behind by 10 points in the second half and you can only handle the ball. But so much the one time that Frank Gore got 300 carries, he got 1700 yards. So in reality, he didn't actually get to compile. You can say that it's the longevity of it, but he's, he comes into the league at a time where in our minds we talk about these things in the context of guys getting 300 carries and dudes, basically, if you're not Derek Henry, they don't get 300 carries anymore. Right. So in my head, Curtis Martin, I do not envision Curtis Martin, nor do I feel like if you look on YouTube and pull up Curtis Martin highlight, Curtis Martin is not going to look like a Hall of Famer. And I don't. I never felt like Curtis Martin while he was playing was a Hall of Famer. However, for 10 years, teams consistently said, you know what? Our best chance of winning is giving the ball to Curtis 300 times and 300 times a year. He was like, yeah, I'll take it.
- [23:27]
D
And who is his coach as well?
- [23:28]
C
He kept getting up and kept going. That I feel like for a running back, if somebody could give you the. That's the one place where I'm like, carries. If you tell me you're in the top however of carries, you might just be a Hall of Famer.
- [23:41]
D
You might just be a Hall of Famer. And I think too, I mean, the addition of analytics as being part, not just part of it, but being the main part of it. Like, one of the reasons why the hall of Fame, why these conversations tend to bore me, unless we're having a good one like this one, is because we've tried to Turn this into science. We've tried to turn this into an algebra test. It's a math test. One plus one has to equal two. But in the true sense of the hall of Fame, it doesn't. It also lives in the mind and in the imagination, which is why you look. You know, you look at Drew Pearson's. But if you saw Drew Pearson play, you're like, of course he's a Hall of Famer. He's one of the signature people of that decade when football became what it is today. Then you look at his numbers and you're like, was he a third receiver? And the reason is because unlike all the other sports, well, Drew Pearson played in an era where you could kill people. Drew Pearson. You could actually murder people on the field. I mean, you lucky to get 800 yards out there.
- [24:51]
C
Yo, that is the thing about any discussion about, like, I do. I do not believe, and I firmly believe this about the NFL or the Pro Football hall of Fame. Numbers aren't going to get you in. Right? Like, if you're going to make a statistical case, it's got to be really overwhelming in one form or another. Like, I have a great statistical case against Jason Whitten getting into the hall of Fame. And. But it is based on, like, relative to his peers at the time. Like, it's a. What are we really talking about here? Sort of situation. Going back and saying that Joe Namath is the most overrated quarterback ever because he had more interceptions than touchdowns is kind of ignoring the way that a. Just.
- [25:38]
D
Montana.
- [25:39]
C
Yeah, you name it. I'm sorry.
- [25:40]
D
Yeah.
- [25:40]
C
But, yeah, strategically, that the game was played in a much different way. Number two. And I think this is important, and we may get to more about this later. Nobody who was actually there at the time says Joe Namath was overrated and shouldn't be in the hall of Fame. Everybody who was there at the time, like Wes Unsaled average something like seven points a game in the NBA. It sounds crazy to me that he's in the hall of Fame. Nobody who was there thinks it was crazy.
- [26:06]
D
You.
- [26:06]
C
You have. You have to defer in that way to. Okay, there were people who were there. You have to defer to that. You also have to defer to what you just hit on with some of these efficiency numbers. It was a really violent game, man.
- [26:21]
D
Like, I wish you could show that clip. I wish just Everybody hop on YouTube and look at NFL Today Intro 1977. You know, and I think my man put a. Put a. I think the, The. The header. He put on the subject was every play here is a penalty today.
- [26:40]
C
Yes. It like watching. That must be what it would be like if somebody put Amos and Andy on regular television. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
- [26:50]
D
Or all in the Family.
- [26:51]
C
Yeah, you can't do that.
- [26:53]
D
Like, you.
- [26:53]
C
You used to just be able to do that on tv. There were clotheslines close. There was the. The. The suplex Y.
- [27:01]
D
They pick up Terry Bradshaw and crunched him. The dude.
- [27:06]
C
A dude laying on the ground who gets stepped on. And please understand, this is the montage that the network and the league have decided is the best vehicle through which to promote promo the game.
- [27:20]
D
This wasn't no bootleg going, oh, look at how bad the NFL is. This is like, yes, this is Sunday. This. This is appointment viewing. Like the one where they show the dude just getting ripped down by his face mask in slow motion.
- [27:33]
C
Yes.
- [27:33]
D
Getting his eyes poked out.
- [27:35]
C
No flag. That wasn't legal at the time.
- [27:38]
D
No. And no visor back then. You're getting your eyes poked out.
- [27:42]
C
Yo, everybody wears a cute face mask now in the NFL. In the 90s, them joints was cages because it was still. We were still in that period. Like, I talked about this. When Steve Atwater went into the hall of Fame, I was like, can they even show a video? There's no way to explain why this dude's in the hall of Fame.
- [28:01]
D
Penalty. Penalty.
- [28:04]
C
Yeah. Could you. You. You. You were not allowed to do any of those things. Like, I saw a clip couple days ago of Ryan Clark, NFL footage, and I had forgotten what time it was with that guy.
- [28:18]
D
And a lot of people thought Ryan was a dirty player.
- [28:19]
C
Yeah, Ryan, he was on his show where he was trying to explain, hey, man, I put people to sleep. That was how he was sticking around the NFL. I put people to sleep.
- [28:31]
D
Him and Sean Taylor back there together.
- [28:33]
C
Yes, there was people whose job it was to do these things. And then as we talked about where Steve Atwater did that and got to the hall of Fame, there were guys even more violent than that who were just dirty Andre, dirty waters, rest in peace Tatum. But his Jack. Jack Tatum, who not in the hall of Fame. And he is on that list of guys where he is so famous and a foundational figure of 1970s football that clearly they were just like, we're not going to do it. We're not putting you in.
- [29:06]
D
Well, I mean, and think once again, when you think about signatures, how many Raiders are in the hall of Fame from that era? Stabler's not in the hall of Fame.
- [29:14]
C
He's in now.
- [29:15]
D
Oh, he's in now. Stabler's in. Cliff, Branch, Blitnikov, Belitnikov's in. Branch didn't get in.
- [29:22]
C
I don't think so.
- [29:23]
D
And so, I mean, that's what I mean. I mean, there are so many of these guys. But once again, this is the conversation about the difference. If this was the NBA, all of those guys would be in.
- [29:35]
C
Oh, it could. Branch is in. I'm sorry.
- [29:36]
D
I was gonna say I thought Branch got in because they are signature players. They are. When you think. And this is what I mean about the imagination. And to me, the imagination matters. It's just like when you're doing the MVP and everything, too. Is the eye test, the whole test. No, but you do want people to buy tickets, and you do want people to wear the jerseys, and you do want your kids to wear the jersey, because then they buy the jersey, and then their kids buy the jersey. And who are those people who draw you to the jersey? The other piece of it is, too, when you talk about having to be there. When I. Whenever I would do my hall of Fame vote, one of the things that I would do is I would call players of that era. I would call up Dennis Eckersley and call Reggie and Joe Morgan for guys that I didn't see or guys that I just wanted to. I just wanted some inside information on, you know, on what they thought of this guy while playing against him. And Reggie, of course, was always my favorite because Reggie is obviously. Reggie's a dominance over longevity guy, too. Say, right. Give me, you know, so Reggie's like point number one. Were you the baddest motherfucker during your time? Were you the guy? Right. And that is the question. Did we have to game plan for you? Did we make sure that if we lost, you didn't beat us? That's huge for them in the. In, you know, in the room. And I was like, okay, I think that's valuable in terms of me and my hall of Fame voting. When you're thinking about certain people, that's one of the reasons why guys loved Edgar Martinez, who I didn't think was necessarily a Hall of Famer, considering he didn't play defense. And also, and as much as I hate doing this, I felt like I had to do it in this case is that how can you put his numbers side by side with Albert Bell when Albert Bell didn't make 5% of the ballot his first time in? And so I don't love that sort of. Well, if this guy's in, then this guy has to be in. Because all the circumstances are fairly different. But the one thing that everybody said, everybody, pitchers, hitters, teammates, opponents, coaches, you didn't want to face Edgar Martinez. You didn't want to face him, you know, and that carried a lot of weight. And I understand, I didn't vote for him, but I understand that's why he got in, because he had the respect. Not just that he was a nice guy and everybody loved Edgar. It was that when the shit hit and the game was on the line, you did not want, you did not want him with a guy on second base in a tie game.
- [32:03]
C
Yeah, basketball has a lot of these examples. And coming up next, we'll talk about some of these. And I will ask Howard about one guy. I'm very curious if he believes him to be a Hall of Famer. Want to know why betting the Winter Games on FanDuel makes sense? From game lines to medal counts to finding your angle on the events you care about most, FanDuel gives you more ways to stay connected to the action the Winter Games are on, and there's no better way to follow them than with a bet on fanduel. Curling matches that start slow and somehow get tense fast, speed skating decided by inches, hockey games that feel different from the opening face off and so much more. FanDuel play your game 21 plus and.
- [32:47]
E
Present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and present in D.C. kansas, Wyoming. Opt in requirement awards are non withdrawable restriction supply including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements and max wager amount e terms@sportsdual.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help for.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.
- [33:35]
C
We all have goals for 2026, but who can help us achieve them? It's hard to find people who are so good at what they do. It's like if you're hiring, how can you find the best people for all the different roles on your team? Easy ziprecruiter and right now you can try it for free@ziprecruiter.com Bomani ZipRecruiter's matching technology works fast. To find top talent so you won't waste time or money. You can find out right away how many job seekers in your area are qualified for your role. In ZipRecruiter's advanced resume database, you can instantly unlock top candidates contact info let ZipRecruiter help you find the best people for all of your roles. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try ZipRecruiter for free. Ziprecruiter.com bomani Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com bomani ZipRecruiter the smartest way to Hire all right, we are back with Howard Bryant and I was thinking as you were talking about that with Edgar Martinez, it's kind of where for me it's very interesting hearing former players talk about Kobe where there are criticisms that I can make statistically and just I think from an honest accounting of watching, where in part personality, some, in some ways and places he came up a little bit short. However, people who played against him, very few of them say any such thing. Right? There is a real value, I think, to what you just pointed out there, which is what these dudes say. And sometimes they're wrong, right?
- [35:14]
D
Sometimes.
- [35:15]
C
But, but there, there is a value no matter what to somebody being like, hey man, you ain't want none of them problems. Like, it's like, listen to Gilbert Arenas and those guys over there talking about you play a game against the Sixers and the whole scouting report was Iverson. That was it.
- [35:27]
D
That's right. Well, he makes the whole engine go, right. I mean there is a lot of value to that. And I mean, I don't, I mean by no measure is Kobe Bryant not a Hall of Famer.
- [35:38]
C
Well, no, no, no, no, no.
- [35:39]
D
That's not what I mean. No, no.
- [35:40]
C
I mean, just to be clear, but like what levels of it, right? So the way former players talk about Carmelo Anthony is much different than the way the nerds would.
- [35:48]
D
That's right.
- [35:48]
C
And the way his like team resume would perhaps indicate.
- [35:52]
D
Well, that's right. And that's also because of what the criteria is. I mean, I got a call from one of my boys. I will shout out you, Jeff Scott, who was talking to me about Bobby Abreu. Somebody put a clip online about why isn't Bobby Abreu in the hall of Fame. Bobby Abreu is absolutely the modern day analytics based player. Now I have not done the Pepsi Challenge with him. I haven't called all of his peers and said, tell me about Babio Bru. But the arguments on him are the numbers there? Yeah, they're okay. I mean, they're good. They're not slam dunk hall of Fame best of the, best of the best. But his real, you know, the real argument on a Bray U is his on base percentage. And that on base percentage is a conversation that you weren't having for Roberto Clemente. Right, right. The.
- [36:42]
C
The.
- [36:43]
D
The on bait ops, that stuff is a very different conversation now than it was for the previous generation of player. And so I'm also thinking, okay, I mean, Bobby Ray hit.291, 2,400 hits, 2470, 288 home runs, 1,300 RBIs, 400 stolen bases, 1400 runs. That is not a slam dunk hall of famer to me. 60.2 war. I mean, I don't really care about war, to be honest, because. And the reason isn't because I'm an analytics hater. It's simply because if you told me which players had the highest WAR without giving me their war, it's pretty much the same as the eye test, right? We saw who could play and who couldn't play. And so this. So the hall of Fame standards are changing, and when those standards change, do you have to. You have to sort of adjust along with it because the game values different things. I said to Billy Beane one day, I remember texting him, I said, billy, does hard hit rate really matter? And he sent me a text back that made me feel like sort of a silly 9 year old where he's like, it absolutely matters, period. And I was like, okay, so 20 years from now, are we going to be judging players by their exit velocity and their hard hit rates as well as the other stats? I mean, all of that sounds dreadful to me, but as the game shifts and as the criteria shifts and as the evaluation shifts, so too does the criteria. Like, you know, I talked to my man Dave Stewart, and he's like, name me a starting pitcher that's getting into the hall of Fame, right? Like, Cece's in. But CC still had. Cece had raw hall of Fame numbers, still got the 3,000 strikeouts, still got the wins, you know, but, you know, if you got guys winning the cy Young with 1112 wins, like this is, you have to evaluate this position differently as time goes on. The same way, if you're Sean Alexander, you might be looking at guys going, really? Because it's just a different sport. Like, I saw a Chart the other day that was talking about the leading passer for every team. You know, the all time, not the leading all time, but single season. The number of dudes who threw five for 5,000 yards. Staggering. But only one of them did it in the 80s.
- [39:15]
C
Yep, it's Dan Marino.
- [39:17]
D
It's Dan Marino.
- [39:17]
C
Dan Marino is the only one who did it in the 20th century.
- [39:21]
D
Of course he is.
- [39:23]
C
5,000.
- [39:24]
D
When you could kill people.
- [39:27]
C
When you could kill people. So important.
- [39:29]
D
And neither of his receivers were in the hall of Fame, right? I mean, who were his guys? Who was he throwing to? You know, like I used to make the argument, you know, who were Tom Brady's best in. Who was Tom Brady's best in. Prime wideout, not slot receiver, not tight end. Best in prime wideout. It's still Deon Branch because Randy Moss was in his 11th year when he went to, when he went to New England. But look at him.
- [39:53]
C
Yeah, I mean it may have been into prime, but it was, but it.
- [39:58]
D
Was still, it was still legit. I'm saying he's still legit, but I'm talking imagine, imagine having Randy Moss, like.
- [40:03]
C
26 year old Randy Moss.
- [40:05]
D
Come on, man. But who was Dan Marino throwing to?
- [40:09]
C
Right?
- [40:09]
D
And I'm not saying that Duper and Clayton weren't great players. I'm saying they're not in the hall of Fame. Right. So the question for me is always the criteria for these sports are just very, very different. And the way that we look at it is different. And one of the questions that I have for you, even though this is your show, but I will do some interviewing of you, is why is that to you? Is the football dynamic simply too harsh? Do we have to be. Should you expect a little bit more leeway when it comes to that signature versus, I mean, okay, if you're going to give the quarterback the credit for throwing it, how come you're not giving anybody credit for catching it?
- [40:48]
C
I just think that it's so many players and so few slots. Yeah, right. And it's so much that requires feel like every now and then you look up like, I saw this the other day. Like even Cliff Branch is an interesting example. And the Pro bowl is a much different metric now than it was then. Because then everybody who got invited to the Pro bowl went, yeah, because it.
- [41:07]
D
Was a free vacation to Hawaii.
- [41:09]
C
Right. And now what it means to be in the Pro Bowl. I mean, Shador Sanders, in a manner of speaking, was a Pro Bowler.
- [41:16]
D
Well, they should abolish the Pro Bowl.
- [41:17]
C
Yeah, yeah, but he but, but, but using it as, using that metric as, as, as. Oh, okay, this is how good you were. Cliff Branch is a four time Pro Bowler. That means something different now like I use that against Matthew Stafford that he was only a three time Pro Bowler. Cause I'm like, damn, Kirk Cousins went to four. You know, like, like, you know, but back then, four time Pro Bowler doesn't mean the same thing. But you look up one day and Jimbo Covert went to three Pro Bowls and now just one year they decided they were gonna put him in the hall of Fame.
- [41:45]
D
Yeah, that's right.
- [41:46]
C
And it's. And Richmond Webb is at the house. Like, hey, I don't know exactly what's going on. It's, it can be weird to tell what if there's a line, what the line is. But I get the idea that the line in football is just going to be really, really high, but it's also going to be about field. Baseball is interesting because baseball's hall of Fame has largely traffic in absolute raw numbers.
- [42:10]
D
Individual team sport.
- [42:12]
C
Right at a time where statistical analysis is much more inclined toward rates and percentages. But every now and then we know when these raw numbers, like everybody's got 3,000 hits is, is in basically.
- [42:24]
D
But certain milestones.
- [42:26]
C
Yeah, but you were never going to Convince me to 3,000 hit 500 home run Rafael Palmero steroids and not. Was no hall of Famer. Never one time in my life did I watch that man play baseball and think I was watching a Hall of Famer. Like it used to be the 400 was guaranteed to get you in. And then Dave Kingman happened and people were like, hey, you know, maybe 400 isn't quite enough.
- [42:46]
D
I know people, Bo who say that steroids or no steroids, Mark McGuire is not a Hall of Fame. And I'm like, you're out of your mind. I mean, just from a, just from a, from the standpoint of signature, like I put that stuff into consideration. Did you put asses in the seats? Like who came to watch you play? Did people come to see you play? Does that matter? I mean.
- [43:11]
C
And what about Jose? No, that was the difference.
- [43:17]
D
The difference is that he flamed out too fast. Jose. Jose became a character by 92, you know, 80, 88 to 90. Jose. Now we're talking.
- [43:25]
C
See, that's, that's why McGuire gets to be weird, because he flamed out too.
- [43:29]
D
He headed to.
- [43:30]
C
Until he gets, until somebody got that match. No, you remember the year before or the year he got to St. Louis, he was killing in Oakland too, because he had 58.
- [43:38]
D
58 home runs.
- [43:39]
C
Then he lit that fire. He got. Got some kerosene, you know what I'm saying? Got a little gas.
- [43:44]
D
And that might be one of the reasons why people, you know, look at him and say, come on. Because he did hit 201 one year. And so, I mean, let's not forget the 201 year. And. And so. Yeah, but I do think that all of these different things, and it takes the. I mean, the hall of Fame is extremely important. It's like. It's like some more bullshit that we'll get to, which is the awards. Like, there's one sitting right behind you. Right. The Emmys and the Oscars and the rest of it. I mean, they're important to the people who win them. They are not necessarily important to the enjoyment of the product. Right. I mean, do you enjoy a movie less because it doesn't win Best Picture? Not for me, I don't. Which is why, you know, the online stuff is different, but the whole thing is different. And I do think it's important to take into consideration not just the statistics, not just the feel, not just the numbers and the time, but also the way we consume it, like the online component. Now you have all these people who used to be able to live in anonymity. Now they have to write think pieces as to, here's why I voted for Justin Herbert. I'm the one that didn't put Pedro Martinez on the envy. You know, now you have to justify. And now you have. You know, everybody's. Well, well, you know, if you don't do this, then you should have your vote taken away. Well, let's be clear about that. The people who want their vote taken away is from people who want their vote.
- [45:07]
C
Right?
- [45:08]
D
Right. Like, this is the argument that I make on baseball. Where do we get it wrong with the baseball writers? Seriously, I mean, serious. I'm asking you seriously. The Baseball Writers association of America. We're really, really, really good. Like, there are very few people. If you take the drugs out of it and take Pete Rose out of it, the extenuating serum, who's not in, who's supposed to be in most of the time. I would say our. I would say our success rate is pretty damn high.
- [45:39]
C
Gary Sheffield's the only one.
- [45:41]
D
Gary Sheffield's associated with balco. Yeah. Well, nine home runs, of course, chefs also, they.
- [45:47]
C
They fixed. They fixed the Andrew Jones error. Now we're. Now we're all square.
- [45:52]
D
Well, Andrew Jones was another one. Well, but once again, Andrew Jones Is in some ways is a victim of his own success. You start balling at 19, people want.
- [46:00]
C
To say, now we're all square. Now we're all square. I agreed.
- [46:03]
D
But I mean, AL Oliver's got 2800 hits. Bill Buckner's got 2700 hits. Johnny Damon's got 2700 hits. So Bill Madlock, right, Madlock batting champion, but four times, right? I mean, so there are guys. But also, let's not forget that you also have to live within your time. And if you didn't live within that time, then you don't understand some of the anger and the feelings and the hard feelings. The 70s get screwed for two major reasons. One, you're coming out of the golden age. All those old time voters who saw Ruth and DiMaggio and Mantle, them old dudes were watching a different sport. Two, labor. Everybody in baseball hates each other. They all fucking hate each other and they don't get along. And you add labor and drugs to the 70s and the 80s and a lot of dudes paid that price because of the hard feelings. And so labor, labor and Drugs to the 70s is what steroids is to the 90s and early 2000s, and you can't escape that human element. Dudes don't. I mean, they. And that's the other piece. Oh, well, you know, I mean, if you didn't play the game, you shouldn't have a vote. Those dudes are settling scores in the veterans committee worse than us. Well, that bitch spiked me in a 10 to 1 game in 1977. Whoa. Right?
- [47:33]
C
They, you know what I mean?
- [47:35]
D
Like, they literally are settling scores from shit that happened in the game.
- [47:42]
C
The elephant memories, boy.
- [47:44]
D
Especially in baseball. And the funny thing about baseball is their recall is unreal. Then you go back and check and I'm like, how did you remember this?
- [47:55]
C
Oh, man.
- [47:56]
D
Three, one pitch, 1973, man, Shea Stadium. It was raining. And then you go look it up.
- [48:03]
C
And you're like, wow, right to the decibel.
- [48:06]
D
Exactly. Like, I remember talking to Ralph Garr about this, and this is a true story. When I was working on the Hank Aaron book, Ralph Garr was talking about a road trip about. Here's. Let me tell you why I respect Henry Aaron so much. And he's telling this story about this hotshot pitcher in San Francisco who's talking all kinds of shit and is completely brash and is the hot new thing. You know, guys, old timers aren't. Remember John the Count Montefusco, and he's pitching for the Giants and he's like. And Henry was talking about how I got something for the count. I got something for the count. I didn't know he was called the count back then. I looked that stuff up and Gator had the. He had the weekend down. He had the inning down. I was like, why do you remember this 40 years ago? But that's baseball for you. But once again, so this idea that you had to play the game in order to know what you were looking at is insulting. And it also doesn't take into account the human element of why people do the voting. I mean, okay, I feel bad for him. I really do. But we didn't put Harold Baines in the hall of Fame. They put Harold Baines in the hall of Fame.
- [49:17]
C
Right. Well, also, go look at how terribly, quite often those guys are when they get to put together teams.
- [49:25]
D
No, that's exactly.
- [49:26]
C
The eye for talent is not necessarily like. I think they have a great eye for certain things that need to be or should be respected.
- [49:33]
D
Yeah.
- [49:33]
C
That if you don't participate.
- [49:35]
D
But you have to know.
- [49:37]
C
Yeah, yeah, they got game. Right. But, yeah, you're right. They come up with a bunch of stuff. I would just throw this one out here because I'm curious. I don't think we've talked about this. Do you think Eli Manning is a Hall of Famer?
- [49:48]
D
All right, let's do it. I'm going to. I'm going to ask you. All right. By my criteria, I want you to give me your up. Down. Yes. No. Dominant.
- [49:57]
C
No.
- [49:58]
D
Longevity.
- [50:00]
C
Sort of signature.
- [50:03]
D
Signature for his time.
- [50:05]
C
This is where it gets ambiguous, depending on who you are. I say no moment. Yes.
- [50:12]
D
He's got two of them. He's got two huge moments, and both.
- [50:16]
C
Of them involved a horseshoe and a keister.
- [50:19]
D
That's right. That's right. And so I don't know how many of those you think will push you over the edge, but I think it's okay for you to have a moment and to be great and to be very, very good in your time and to win two Super Bowls over Tom Brady and the Dynasty and still not be a Hall of Famer and have that not hurt you.
- [50:45]
C
Yeah. I think that's why they retire jerseys.
- [50:48]
D
That's what. Exactly. And in football, it's even worse in some ways, because in football, they don't retire jerseys. They retire names because they don't have. They run out of numbers.
- [50:55]
C
Yeah. But the Giants, interestingly, they retired Phil Sims jersey.
- [50:59]
D
Yep.
- [51:00]
C
And they've retired Eli Mannings and Eli Mannings.
- [51:03]
D
Yeah. Two Quarterbacks and of course. Lt. But I mean, seriously, when you think about that, I think one thing that we have to do and that we don't do a good job of it, in fact, it's getting worse because of the online component, first of all. Now, not only do you have to be a Hall of Famer, but you have to be unanimous of the pitchforks are coming down your street. Like, anyone that didn't vote for you, what's wrong with you? We gonna kill you. You know, you didn't vote for Player X and that the one position that everybody says was devalued is the closer. And the closer happens to be the only unanimous guy, which is Mariano Rivera. And then the other thing that we also have to do, whether it's football, baseball, or the rest of this basketball, whatever, is I think we have to be okay with not being a Hall of Famer. I mean, the hall of Fame, to me, I still like in baseball, they say the small hall guy. I still believe that that thing should be a really, really exclusive club. Like, I think it should be seriously exclusive, that this is where the best of the best of the best, that's where they reside. Some people feel very, very differently. Some people feel like, no, this is where. This is where you remember your favorites. This is where you remember your signature guys. This is where you remember your. Like, we talk about eras. This is where you celebrate your eras. It's a very different hall of Fame if you're celebrating eras than if you are celebrating the very best of the best of the best.
- [52:40]
C
This has been a fun hour, brother.
- [52:42]
D
For real.
- [52:42]
C
Well, like 50 minutes, but still a good time. Howard Bryant. Also, don't forget to check out Kings and Pawns. If you have not checked it out, it is available at fine booksellers. It is a very good book. We did a wonderful event at the Jackie Robinson Museum. Shout out to everybody who checked it out and came and hung out with us. How I was star of the show trying to be all shy and try to act like he don't like people looking like you can see the sunshine. Just wanted to jump all up out of his black ass heart. He just all wanted to come out there. It was wonderful to be there for him.
- [53:15]
D
Oh, man, I enjoyed being there with you especially because what was great about it afterwards was the number of people who watch your show. That was fun. And the number of people who got to. I felt sort of silly. That was like, oh, I only see you when you're on Bomani's show. I'm like, well, I do other things, you know. But no, it was great. And thank you for doing was a lot of fun.
- [53:43]
C
No, no problem. Thanks to the good folks at the Jackie Robinson Museum for having me out and doing all that. And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the Right Time. We do this four times a week. Ryan Brumley had a thing behind the scenes. Thank you sir. Hit the voicemail. 323-59-67767. Also, we are taking President's Day off. So we will be back on Tuesday with our second installment of our 1996 in Hip Hop series with my man DJ Wy Sparks. Remember, follow the right time, subscribe like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are hater. We'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it EAS.