Joel Anderson on James Harden traded to Cavaliers, College Basketball in Crisis | 02.04

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Right Time with Bomani Jones

Episode: Joel Anderson on James Harden Traded to Cavaliers, College Basketball in Crisis
Date: February 4, 2026
Host: Bomani Jones
Guest: Joel Anderson

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode dives into two major topics: the surprising NBA trade of James Harden to the Cleveland Cavaliers—and his complicated legacy—and the tumultuous state of college basketball amid eligibility changes and NIL (Name, Image, and Likeness) policies. Bomani and Joel bring sharp analysis, humor, and spirited debate on the evolution of pro and college sports labor markets, the meaning of greatness, and broader issues in sports culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. James Harden Traded to Cavaliers (06:06–23:48)

• Breaking Down the Trade

  • Cleveland acquires James Harden from the Los Angeles Clippers, trading away Darius Garland and a second-round pick.
  • Harden's move is less about him demanding a trade and more about the Clippers preemptively moving on.

    “It sounds more like it was the Clippers were like, hey, James, just letting you know we're not going to pay you...We’re gonna figure something out for you.” — Bomani (06:18)

  • Assessment: Good fit for Cleveland (Mitchell can play off guard); Harden offers size and experience (07:38).

• The Enduring Harden Playoff Narrative

  • Conversation focuses on Harden’s troubling playoff history—especially his poor performance in elimination games:

    “We know the last game of the season, James Harden is going to play terribly…which means you’re not going to win a championship. Cause we got 17 years of this with James Harden.” — Bomani (07:36)

  • Joel points out Harden’s high-level, physically-demanding play over 17 years—but concedes the consistent playoff shortcomings (08:48–09:41).
  • Bomani highlights exceptions (big performances vs. OKC and the Celtics), but maintains Harden’s legacy is clouded by clutch inconsistency (11:01–12:13).
  • Comparison to Karl Malone: Durable, statistically great, but seen as someone who comes up short when it counts (12:13–12:52).

• Legacy and Ranking Conversation

  • Is Harden “little Karl Malone?” (12:13)
  • Harden blames bad luck and “peak Steph Warriors” for not winning (13:26, 13:55).
  • Bomani pushes back: Context matters, but Harden’s playoff failings can’t be explained entirely by tough opponents (13:56–14:42).
  • The hosts run through all-time shooting guard lists (18:18–23:13). Debate whether Harden is above Clyde Drexler, Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, or Tracy McGrady.
    • Memorable quote:
      “James Harden is not as good as Clyde Drexler, man…Clyde Drexler played for it twice before he got to the Rocket [Houston].” — Bomani (18:44)
    • They agree: Harden is an all-time great, but playoff success/presence in Finals is a separator.

• The Meaning of Greatness in the NBA

  • Discuss how the NBA’s “best man wins” nature means top players usually at least reach the Finals (15:40–16:55).
  • Questions about the changing criteria for ranking legacy, age, and the impact of shifting eras.

2. Deep Dive: Legacy of NBA Big Men (23:33–28:47)

• Short segment on power forwards and centers—debates about Tim Duncan as a 4 or 5, David Robinson’s underrated career, Moses Malone’s overlooked greatness.
• Entertaining anecdotes about the relative “smallness” of great centers like Olajuwon and Dwight Howard (26:59).

3. College Basketball in Crisis: Pros Returning to Campus (33:20–45:13)

• New Eligibility/Economic Landscape

  • College basketball is facing potential crisis as players with NBA, G League, or international pro experience return to college ball under NIL.
  • Bomani: Concerned about “ringer” dynamics undermining continuity and college sports traditions.

    “A guy coming back in the middle of January to just wind up on a team, like, as a ringer, like, as a free agent—I don’t think that improves college basketball.” — Bomani (39:54)

• Joel’s Take: More Talent = More Fun

  • Joel relishes the chaos; argues better players make for a better product and spotlights fans’ shifting complaints—first it was about “one-and-dones” leaving, now it’s about “ringers” returning (34:27–35:45).
  • He enjoys watching entrenched systems—especially those dominated by traditionalist fans—be disrupted.

• The Battle over What College Ball Represents

  • Bomani emphasizes continuity, local legends, and team-building over pure talent injection (37:43–39:54).
  • They debate if fans really “lose” anything if the sport just gets better players, or if the sense of community/memory is the point (41:44 –42:28).

• The College Basketball Labor Market

  • Discussion of “transfer portal culture,” professionalization, and whether the influx of paid, older players undermines the “mythology” of college sports (41:44–45:13).

4. College Sports, Transfer Portal, and Athlete Advocacy (45:07–59:54)

• Transfer Portal and the Advice Economy

  • Debate over whether today’s chaotic transfer market is hurting players more than helping—many make “bad decisions” based on poor advice.

    "To me, there are a couple of problems. Number one, the advice economy around college football in particular is underdeveloped and leaving players in incredibly vulnerable situations.” — Bomani (45:23)

  • Joel insists the real problem is the NCAA and coaches manipulating rosters for “win-now” purposes, pushing kids out, and blaming money for systemic issues (46:53–48:46).
  • Bomani admits: All sides (players, coaches, advisors) are making mistakes, and the least protected are often the players (49:12–50:23).

• Player Mobility, Loyalty Myths, and Getting Paid

  • They discuss the chicken-and-egg problem: coaches not loyal, players not loyal, everyone competing for better opportunities.
  • Should we care if a player “gets replaced” by a transfer? Is competition simply part of sports?
  • Bomani:

    “I do think saying they don’t want to compete is a fair hypothesis to explore…All this maneuvering to find a place you can play right now—it goes on in high schools, hell, it goes on in middle schools…” (52:20)

• Short-Term vs. Long-Term Player Interests

  • Should athletes pursue immediate NIL earnings or focus on developing for the pros?
  • Bomani: Many “short-sighted” decisions leave some athletes worse off.
  • Joel: Many players/families need the money now; long-term planning isn’t always feasible.

• Professionalization, Systemic Change, and Unionizing

  • Joel advocates for collective bargaining and employee status for players as the only sustainable path.

    “Advocate for collective bargaining. That’s what I want you to do. Let’s formalize this. Let’s make this a more equitable and stable system for everybody.” — Joel (58:02)

  • Bomani is skeptical about how this could logistically happen, but agrees the current system is unsustainable (59:54).

• All Money Ain’t Good Money

  • Bomani closes this segment with a cautionary motto about chasing quick dollars:

    “All money ain’t good money.” — Bomani (62:15)

5. Light-Hearted Segment: Houston Rap, Swisha House, and Local Nostalgia (63:26–65:31)

• Joel and Bomani reminisce about Houston’s local club/radio scene, raise-the-roof originality, and northside vs. southside rap (63:21–65:13).

6. Fun Wrap: “Funniest Name to Turn Up in the Epstein Files” (65:33–67:43)

• Quick, dark-humor game theorizing which public figures would be “funny” to see appear in released Epstein files.
• Tim Tebow and Tom Brady are proposed, with plenty of giggles and asides on the odd, messy realities of public image vs. private behavior.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On James Harden’s playoff woes:
  “The last game of the season, James Harden is going to play terribly…we got 17 years of this.”
  — Bomani (07:36)

• On legacies:
  “There haven’t really been that many great two guards…Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, D. Wade, Jerry West, Clyde Drexler, and James Harden. Is [Harden] as good as Clyde Drexler? Nah.”
  — Bomani (18:29–18:44)

• On college basketball's evolving chaos:
  “I fail to see how it’s a bad thing for college basketball to have better college basketball players…if they want to come back and play, that makes the game more entertaining for me.”
  — Joel (35:45)

  “What people have wanted was greater levels of continuity…there is something to the idea…in college sports that is completely laid to waste when a dude goes to the NBA, then comes back.”
  — Bomani (37:46)

• On player empowerment and risk:
  “I want them to get every dollar that they’re owed, because I know that they’re only going to be…going to have to claw it out of people’s hands.”
  — Joel (61:01)

• On all money not being good money:
  “All money ain’t good money…Sometimes I just don’t want the money.”
  — Bomani (62:05)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 06:06 – James Harden traded to Cavaliers: trade details, analysis
• 07:36 – Harden’s playoff struggles and legacy
• 12:13 – Comparing Harden to Karl Malone; what matters in NBA greatness
• 18:18–23:13 – All-time shooting guard rankings; Iverson, Ray Allen, Drexler debate
• 33:20 – College basketball’s “crisis”: pros, eligibility, NIL
• 41:44 – Is “better players” good for college basketball?
• 45:07 – Transfer portal chaos; underdeveloped advice economy
• 58:02 – Should college athletes unionize? Push for collective bargaining
• 62:05 – “All money ain’t good money” and closing thoughts
• 65:33 – Funniest possible names for the Epstein files game

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Tone and Language

• The conversation is candid, light-hearted yet incisive, with friendly ribbing, pop culture asides, and direct challenges to sports orthodoxy.
• Bomani blends humor, skepticism, and empathy; Joel brings clever provocations and a crowd-pleaser’s appetite for disruption.
• They move seamlessly from serious analysis to local humor, personal experience, and provocative “what ifs.”

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Quick Takeaways

• James Harden is still a fascinatingly paradoxical NBA star—great, durable, and polarizing.
• The line between pros and amateurs in basketball has never been blurrier; the power dynamics and labor market are unsettled.
• Real solutions for college sports will require confronting entrenched interests, and perhaps completely re-imagining the system.
• Fans’ nostalgia sometimes collides with reality, but every shift in sports is both crisis and opportunity.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Right Time, a Wave original. My name is Bomani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is that time of week where we have a guest join us. Check out, check him out on ring a tailgate. Also check him out on the press box and I hope he wasn't on camera by the time that like Joel Addison, has this become your thing now?

[A]

This is my signature move.

[B]

Like, like, this wasn't always the case. Like, like, let me tell you, I keep what's happened here with my good buddy Joel. Look, we gonna talk about James Harden, we gonna talk about a few other things, right? But one thing that I have noticed that I have to keep in mind, this ring or tailgate show, I think is the first opportunity that you've truly had to be not simply on camera, but to be an on camera personality.

[A]

Okay, that's fair, right?

[B]

Like, you know, you've done your stuff, you've done your slow burn, you've done other things, but you've been there to be a serious person doing serious things. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying that your job isn't serious, but I'm saying the vibes of this, oh, look, is it you next to you next to a dude with a cowboy hat on, you know what I'm saying? And you know, and they are, they have shared with the world what we have always known here on the Right Time, which is that you're a touch of a weirdo, right? And wow. A touch. Joel, Joel, you've spent the last week arguing with your co worker about whose dad could beat the others up.

[A]

My dad beat the brakes off his old man, but okay, dead dad, I'd like to point out he brought that up, not me.

[B]

I, okay, I, I, I, but you know, all I'm saying, all I'm saying is this, as you have become a person who is now a bit of an on camera out front personality, you figuring it Out. And quite often part of figuring it out is going through gimmicks of sorts until you get to another space and somehow you've decided that your gimmick is that you go raise the roof.

[A]

It's so. This is so disresp.

[B]

What is disrespectful? You know, it's exactly what's.

[A]

You get a little bit of touch of fame and now you, I'm saying.

[B]

To somebody who did here, I know how it goes. Like, this is part of the process and you're not going to keep doing that forever. But for right now, as you sift through things, right now, you are adhering to your insistence you no longer want to publicly be identified as the fastest 10 year old in America in 1988.

[A]

I know, I'm fine with that. I'm still good with it.

[B]

No, now you want to be the inventor of raising the roof. You're like Little fucking Richard who showed up at every award show to remind people that he the OG of the og.

[A]

Are you bringing that up because B Dot called Westside Gun Little Richard on Twitter today or something?

[B]

I had no idea that this happened.

[A]

Oh, Westside Gun did not take it very well.

[B]

What kind of Little Richard was he calling him?

[A]

Well, you know, B Dot was talking about how, you know, the J. Cole, DJ Clue thing, and there's a couple, you know, the rappers are getting back into the mixtape vibe and he's like, I want to see more of that. And Westside Gun was like, well, basically I've been doing that. People hadn't given me my respect for it. And so B Dot was like, well, you sound like Little Richard. I, I, I want my credit. I want my credit.

[B]

West side Gun was not able to appreciate the nuance of statement. Or did he get the nuance of the statement? It still didn't like it.

[A]

He, he said something to the effect on my soul. When I see you in, in person, I'm going to.

[B]

Okay. I gotta say, I am assuming that it's number one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I rolled out. Given the fierceness of that, I have thoughts on west side Gun that I guess I will not offer now.

[A]

I wouldn't want to have a misunderstanding with him.

[B]

I will. I saw west side Gun once on a plane train in Atlanta. And it was too late at night for me to holla at him because I had no idea if he knew who I was. And it was really late at night. But Black thought name checked me on a West side Gun song. Yeah, west side Gun.

[A]

Is that, is that right? Yeah.

[B]

I say this, though. Here's my thing, though. And before we get to the other stuff, in terms of, like, coming up with a concept, putting the art direction out, titling it, all of that stuff, that man is an honest to God genius. Right. Like, in terms of taking a vision and applying it, like, I could come up with some stuff and then do it. I don't feel like I. I don't feel like I have that ability to start with just an entire escape. Like, I've been better at it at different times in my life, but I look at that stuff he does, and I'm like, wow, there's a mastermind behind this.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, west side Gun. And I guess the. What we're not talking about is, like, how good of a rapper he is, right? But I think I. That's almost immaterial to me. He's still one of my favorite artists. I love listening. Hey, Joe Gun. He's always in my top five.

[B]

Hey, Joe, let me explain something to you right fast that you need to understand, okay? Sometimes when we leave the thing unsaid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We don't say that we're leaving it unsaid. What? We. We just. We just do it.

[A]

Well, okay.

[B]

You. You understand what I'm saying?

[A]

In case Westside Gun sees this, that's something that other people say. I think I love Westside Gun music. He's always in my top five. Spotify rap.

[B]

Joe.

[A]

Joe. One of my favorite rappers.

[B]

Joe. Joe. I already. I already did the work for you, bro.

[A]

Okay. All right. I just wanted. I wanted.

[B]

Because we already did the work for you.

[A]

I want him to know all you're.

[B]

Doing is making it worse.

[A]

No, I just. I want some clarity.

[B]

I don't think you. Hey, check this out. Right? James Harden. And you know what? I want to be fair to James Harden this time, okay? Because I'm not sure that James Harden asked to be traded.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What? It sounds to me like what happened. For those of you who don't know, James Harden is now a Cleveland Cavalier. And I don't know. I don't know what the clubs is hitting on in Cleveland, but I guess he's about to find out. And something tells me it's not going to make him happy. Um, but anyway, James Harden went to Cleveland for. With Darius Garland, the second round pick. I forget where the second round pick went. That don't really matter too much to me. Um, at first, it felt like a classic. James Harden. Oh, you not going to pay me? Well, watch this. And then he Got traded. What? It sounds more like it was the Clippers were like, hey, James, just letting you know we're not going to pay you. And they ain't even let it get to the point of, of James acting bad. They were like, we know where this goes, all right? Don't you worry. Part we go, we, we gonna figure something out for you. Like, hey, hey, hey, hey. I, I know. Yeah, we know what that means, James. We know what that means. And now James is going to the Cleveland Cavaliers. And this is my question, because on one hand it makes perfect sense for Cleveland. They got, they got a significant construction problem or roster construction problem or at least they had. Where they had two little guards, right. And, and two talls, not bigs. Right, Right. Well, James Harden is many things. He is not a small guard. No, he is a tank.

[A]

All right. Barrel chested dude.

[B]

Yeah. And you could put him next to Mitchell and Mitchell can play off guard like in a way that Kyrie could play off guard when he was playing with LeBron. Like if Harden decides I'm just going to be the point guard, he can do that. The problem is we know the last game of the season, James Harden is going to play terribly like 5 for 17 with eight turnovers. He's going to be awful in the last game of the year and you're going to lose that game, which means you're not going to win a championship. Cause we got 17 years of this with James Harden and I'm amazed that like, do people. Because he's such a good player, right? Like, it's not even. He's not my favorite player. He's Joel's favorite player. He's a, he's a very, he's an excellent player and he has stayed good longer than any of us expected that he would stay good. And in an era where guys have been known to be in and out of lineups, he's played a lot of games at a lot of points with a physically demanding style. He's in year 17. Why, why they think it ain't going to be the same as it's always been? Do they think it's just mean?

[A]

Well, I don't you think that's more of a referendum on what they think Darius Garland is going to be? That they say? Well, I. Because it, on its face, it is kind of ridiculous. You're trading a 36 year old, 17 years in the league for a 26 year old who's, you know, I mean, he's borderline all star and presumably still has plenty of Good years in front of him. But, I mean, Darius Garland has been hurt. And I wonder if they look at him and they say, well, look, we know that we've capped out on what we can get out of Darius Garland, and maybe James Harden has taken these lessons and these failures in the past and we'll get something different. And they're like, look, Donovan Mitchell is a great big game player. We've got two defenders and Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, so we don't even have to worry about if he plays defense. So, like, maybe his deficiencies won't matter as much here because we got something for that.

[B]

I think Darius Garland's problem is that he's six foot one.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And Donovan Mitchell is six foot two.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, you just, you just couldn't, you couldn't keep doing that. Right? Like he, I mean, he's, he's been an all star. Right. Like, I don't. I don't know if necessarily the Cavs are down on him intrinsically.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right. Or just the fact that he does not fit with the guys that they have. So I think that's a fair question that you ask. I don't. I just. I don't think it's so much an indictment there. I just look at it and yeah, if this is the thing where he gets interesting, because you're right, Donovan Mitchell, pretty good big game player. Right? But James still going to find a way, man. Like, you can't even have him around. You can't even, like, you can't even let him come to the stadium.

[A]

I mean, you can stagger the minutes you can give.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Hear me. You're not hearing me. You can't let James on the. You can't stagger the James and Donovan minutes when you do this because you need you. You need to diminish any possibility that James gets the ball in those games.

[A]

James Harden has been terrible in some very notable spots, but he's not always terrible in the playoffs.

[B]

Just the last game of the year.

[A]

Hey, look, that. I mean, right. You don't. The thing is.

[B]

Hold on, hold on. Let me say it. Stop right this.

[A]

Cuz he had a good game seven against Oklahoma City that one time.

[B]

Well, yes, about. Say. Because I want to say something. You're right. He has some big playoff performances. Like when, when he fell apart at the end of that series with the Sixers against the Celtics. They had two games in that series that he won by himself. Like, jump on my back. Got it done. That game seven against Oklahoma City, which, because it was the bubble, nobody's going to remember it. That was a fascinating series because, remember, they had just traded Chris. That was the year after they traded Chris Paul and Chris. Paul and James do not like each other.

[A]

They don't bang each other at all.

[B]

It was looking like another James Harden series. And as I recall, the last play of that Game seven was James Harden reaching up, blocking that shot. And I have never seen James Harden look that emotional on a basketball court. Like, he made the play on defense, a defensive play. Right. He made the play to win the series. So it's part of what the thing is about him is, like, why I don't get into, like, is he a Hall of Famer? Of course, when you start talking about him in the upper echelon of two guards, where it gets tricky is the knowledge that the last game of the season, he's going to be terrible.

[A]

Well, you know, does that make him little Karl Malone? Right? I mean, because Karl Malone was definitely a guy that came up short in big moments. Right. Never won a championship, but was, like, dependable, put up lots of numbers, carried, you know, played far longer than you would expect. Somebody that played a, you know, that sort of ball.

[B]

The most durable player, the two most durable players in the history of the NBA.

[A]

Yeah, those two.

[B]

Dirty John Stockton and Carl Malone.

[A]

Yeah. And don't you. I mean, I just, like, is it bad to be remembered Is sort of Carl Malone.

[B]

I mean, is it. Did you just add. Did you. Hold on, hold on.

[A]

I'm not talking about Summerfield, Louisiana.

[B]

Somebody else is in the house. So I could call them over and be like, hey, Joe just asked if it's bad to be called little Carl.

[A]

Below, not Summerfield, excluding the Summerfield, Louisiana of it all.

[B]

How about. How about. How about the 18 Willa of it all? How about the like, like, like, like everything other than the box score.

[A]

Yeah, the little Mexican girls.

[B]

Everything other than the box.

[A]

We keeping it to the box score. We keeping it to the box score. And like, what, you expected them in a big game. And if you keep it to just that part of it, then I think that's not necessarily the worst legacy to have. And I, I saw James Harden the best one. It's not. It's not. But I saw James Harden talk about this, and he was like, well, look, I had some bad luck. He's like, my peak came during those, those great Steph Curry teams, the straight Steph Curry warriors teams didn't win during then. Which is true. Right? Is that not true?

[B]

It Is true.

[A]

They were the only team that had a legit shot at beating them.

[B]

That is not the explanatory variable for why it went bad for James Harden. Because, let's say in. Was it 2018? Yes, it was 2018. I was on the way to Barbados. It was 2018. That's how I remember these.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, I was at the airport on the way. No, I was at the airport on the way to Barbados. The game that Chris Paul hurt his hamstring. It was game six. He hurt his hamstring. Right. Um. And so that was 2018. All they would have done is gone and played in the finals against LeBron and put up three terrible games.

[A]

Come on, man.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. It wouldn't have mattered who was around. The circumstances seemed to be the problem, not the opponents.

[A]

I. Look, the thing. I don't know what to think about that time because the Rockets were really the only team that gave that healthy warriors team a run. Right. Like, they were the only team that ever really had them on the ropes.

[B]

Well, I mean, I guess it was only one game with the 2017 spurs where. Where they were 25.

[A]

Yeah. Who's to say, right? Yeah. The Foot.

[B]

Yeah. But you're right, you're right. The Rock. The Rockets did their best.

[A]

They did their best. They went. They, they. They. They went for it and came up short because Chris Paul's hamstring couldn't hold up and they fell apart in game seven.

[B]

Cause, I mean, one thing we know, it's not like you could ever lose.

[A]

With Chris Paul, but I mean, again, I just think a lot of this because I don't like to. I mean, winning championships are so hard. And so, like, when people do it, I. I elevate people who win championships, but I don't really demerit people who don't win because knowing that it requires so much, so many things to go right for you to win a championship.

[B]

So let me throw something at you, because I agree with. I do think we undersell how hard it is to win one. However, what do you say about not playing for one? Okay.

[A]

And Harden.

[B]

And to be clear, Harden is a weird case because Harden has been to an NBA Finals, but it was as the sixth man on those teams. Right. Howard Bryant makes this point about basically every sport. Just about everybody that's one of them dudes has forget about winning one, plays for one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So as much as I love Dominique.

[A]

Wilkins, I was gonna say. Yeah.

[B]

Didn't even get past the second round. And you could talk about everybody else that was around, but at some point it was not you.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. Like you were not the guy best. And especially in basket basketball, which is typically a best man win sport, but you go through it. Even Chris Paul with the. We could talk about him. Chris Paul was the best player on a team that played for a championship.

[A]

Right. Should have won, too.

[B]

Yeah. Just about all of them are. Or you get guys that. It was never like James Worthy never had the opportunity, for example. But James Worthy ain't in the conversations.

[A]

Yes. That's a different wing of the hall of Fame.

[B]

Right. Even when we thought Dirk Nowitzki was soft. Dirk Nowitzki had played for a championship.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Luka Doncic, for all our criticisms of him, has played for a championship. Like it's going to be interesting with guys like Anthony Edwards, when it comes down to it, are you going to have. Especially now, is it. It's a little more random and weird about who gets there, but we gonna ask about him. Have you played for WAR? Giannis, who's one ring is taking him a long way. But he got there, he played for one. You know, we can go up and down the line. It's hard to name guys in truth who haven't played for one. Patrick Ewing played for one.

[A]

Right. I mean. Well, what do you think that. I mean, because the thing is, what do we. What are we arguing about? James Harden? Because I don't think anybody is saying that he is top, top of the line, you know, top 20 NBA player of all time, but he has a.

[B]

Statistical profile that would make you say that he should be in that discussion.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And. And let's say that they had gone to the finals in 2018, which I don't think was necessarily his fault, but he's also not the reason they went. But if he, if they had one in 2018, what will we say about James Harden?

[A]

I mean, man. Yeah, we. I mean, is he. Is he there? I don't think you would put in with D. Wade, but I mean, right now we're. We're saying. What is he, the fifth, the fifth, sixth best two guard.

[B]

So we're saying all time, two guards. All right, I'm going to try to do this like off top of head because two guard is a weird position. There haven't really been that many great two guards.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Michael Jordan, Kobe, Kobe Bryant, and in no particular order right now, just, just so people don't start arguing about it.

[A]

D. Wade, Jerry West.

[B]

D. Wade, Jerry West, Clyde Drexler and James Harden. Is not as good as Clyde Drexler. Wow.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Clyde Drexler played for it twice before he got to the Rocket. I.

[A]

Look, bro, I was the best player. That's tough.

[B]

Teams that went to the Finals. Why wouldn't it be Clyde Drexler?

[A]

Those were. Those were really good ensemble cast.

[B]

He played second. Fine, but the second best player on that team is Terry Porter.

[A]

Yeah, man.

[B]

Like, why? Why? Why? Yeah. I mean, did you just say Kevin Duckworth?

[A]

He was all star. Kevin Duck made an all. Couple all stars.

[B]

You know why he was an all star.

[A]

Why? Those were some really good teams, man. You ever play with them on. On. On NBA Live?

[B]

That's fine. That's fine. But James Harden is not Clyde Drexler, man. I don't.

[A]

I. That's a tough one, bro. I. I can't.

[B]

Clyde Drexler, by the way, who also has a ring. James Harden doesn't have that, man.

[A]

That's. That's a tough one. I'm not saying that I wholly disagree, but I. That kind of shocked me that you threw Clyde Drexler over there just like that. Like, I feel that's a. That's more of an argument than I would.

[B]

I've never seen Clyde Drexler be the reason his team could not go to the NBA Finals, man.

[A]

I mean, people. See, the thing is, is, like, everything gets washed over. Because remember that year, the year that Michael Jordan got to play the Lakers in his first NBA Finals? That was the year that Clyde Drexler was supposed to have gone to the finals, but he played poorly in the Western Conference finals against the Lakers and they lost. And then, like, Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. And so there were things. There were things that, like, you know, in the way that Michael Jordan regarded him.

[B]

Just, Just. Just tell me. Just tell me about. That's the way Michael Jordan regarded everybody. But just, just. Just tell me. Just tell me about the time. Just tell me about the time that James Harden got done. Let me ask you this, because this is where it gets interesting. You would say that James Harden is a better player than Tracy McGrady. Oh, man. But I'm saying. I mean.

[A]

And I think he had a better career for sure.

[B]

That never getting. And see, and that's where it also becomes interesting, because that never getting out of the first round thing is a huge demerit for Tracy McGrady. But Tracy McGrady at his coldest. Like, it's almost unfair to anybody to try to compare them to what it looked like when Tracy McGrady played basketball.

[A]

Hey, yeah, but there's no way I.

[B]

Could say Tracy McGrady was a better player than James Harden when Tracy McGrady never got out of the first round.

[A]

Of the playoffs, man, you know, and I, I, so I covered Tracy McGrady when he was with the, when he first got to the Rockets, and I mean, they saddled him with some of the worst rosters they did no to, man. I mean, bro, he had Clarence out there, Bobby Sura. Yeah, right. Yeah. The Magic was, it was the same deal. So that's what, that was one of the first times that I was like, sometimes it may not really matter how good you are, you know, when you got a lot, when you got, when you got to overcome like the deficiencies of your teammates. And no disrespect to those guys, but it was like Tracy McGrady was not playing with like a loaded deck.

[B]

Right. Well, let me ask this question also about two guards, because as we've been talking, I've been going through and off the top of my head, I've not been able to think of another person necessarily throw in there. But here's a fun question, and it's because we don't actually like treat this man like a serious basketball player. We know he's a serious basketball player, but when we have these discussions, we don't treat him as a serious basketball player. Is Allen Iverson A2 guard?

[A]

Oh, man, that's a good question.

[B]

Because I think clearly he is. When they went to the finals, I.

[A]

Mean, Eric Snowman was the point.

[B]

When he went to the finals, they went to the finals. He was the two guard.

[A]

He was the two guard.

[B]

Would you say that James Harden better than Allen Iverson?

[A]

Oh, man, I don't, I don't think so. I.

[B]

Man, Paul, let me ask you another one.

[A]

God damn.

[B]

How much better? Because I think most of us would say he was better. But I still ask, how much better is James Harden than Ray Allen?

[A]

Well, so I, I would like.

[B]

Ray Allen's a tough one to evaluate in these discussions.

[A]

By the time he became championship guy, he wasn't the player that he had been earlier in his career, but he was a hell of a player earlier in his career. And then he became the best three point shooter of all time until Steph took the crown from him. Right.

[B]

But at the same time, nobody ever wanted anything. I GUESS they got one game away from the finals in 2001, but nobody really wanted anything. Yeah, nobody really won anything. But Ray Allen is their best player. Yeah, man.

[A]

That's a man. That man. The two guard thing is kind of weird. I. Because I don't. It all. I don't want to have to pit Allen Iverson versus James Harden. It just seems too hard to think about.

[B]

But like, historically, the league has had a lot of great ones. A lot of grade threes, a lot of grade fives. The four became a thing from the 90s on.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like your whole list of greatest power forwards, the earliest real candidate that people will have is Karl Malone. Right, Right. Like it was just back. It was a different position back in the day.

[A]

That could be your four.

[B]

That was not. That was not a position for people who were good at basketball.

[A]

Kermit. Your Kermit Washington.

[B]

You know what it was? It was the full back of basketball. Like, sure, they're fullbacks that can run. Sure, there's fullbacks that can catch. Like Jim Brown was a fullback.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Like they're there. But that's not. They. They wasn't a high salary cap allocation.

[A]

Yeah, I. For. Yeah. No, no, not. Not a lot of. And also, like, just as an aside, do you. Do you count Tim Duncan as a four? Because I kind of think of him as a five. Even though. Even though he wants to be a four.

[B]

I mean, so the thing was he was a four until David Robinson retired and then he was a five.

[A]

And all.

[B]

All the Tim Duncan early career stuff becomes interesting and muddy because they gave him the minutes. They made him that guy. But you go look at the advanced numbers on that first championship team or even the regular numbers. When you prorated out for minutes, it is clear who the best player on that team still was. And it was David Robinson.

[A]

Damn. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, you go look at some of those numbers, man. Robinson, they cut like, I think they put him in a position to be good in like more concentrated stretches. Yeah, but it did great. I mean, David Robinson, talk about a guy that had some terrible rosters. Oh, my God, that's the guy that was so cold that like, that's the one of those that I'm like, he would still be everything if he played today. And he just had that one series against Dream. I just really never let him slide for it.

[A]

I mean, it really impacted the way we thought about him. He's such a great dude. He was such a great player, man. Like, I mean, he. He even look. He would look great in basketball today. Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he kind of is. Don't you know? Is it crazy to say he kind of was like a wimby esque figure.

[B]

Well, it's hard to say that because he's not eight feet tall, right? Yeah, but I don't even. I mean, pick your guy 7ft tall, could face the basket, could shoot. Like, he would have more range in today's game. Just like Elijah One would have more range in today's game because that would be the game.

[A]

Take one or two more steps out.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You would tell that person to do. That ain't Robinson. See, the thing is, Robinson was like, so much bigger than Elijah. Juan and strongest.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, that's why those clips of a lot of. Of Shaq just abusing David Robinson. Also bad for the reputation, but he was doing it to everybody else.

[A]

Absolutely, man. Look, I. So I watched that 95 finals, right? When the Rockets swept the Magic, and I remember thinking, I was like, man, Akeem can't do shit with Shaq. I was like. Like, Akeem did get his numbers off. He was an MVP of that series. Shaq has respect for Akeem that he really doesn't have for anybody else. That kind of counts as his peers. But watching those games and. And Dream said it later, he's like, I can't do nothing with this guy.

[B]

They didn't do that much guarding of each other.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Because here was the issue for Elijah with those dudes that were just like, way bigger than him. Elijah would take that step back, and then he'd get off the ground so fast that he. Here we go. Pitching a little finger roll, pitch, whatever.

[A]

Yeah, throw it up.

[B]

That's not working with Shaq because that's. That. He's not putting that. He's not putting that thing up in the air.

[A]

Oh, he's not fading away from the basket.

[B]

Yeah, right, right. He's not. No, no, no. Especially at that point. Point. That's year three. Shaq Touch was not really in the arsenal.

[A]

Nah, nah, nah, nah. But yeah, no, I mean. So, yeah, Dream. And Dream looks so much smaller compared to him. Like, when you see those videos of them lined up against each other close.

[B]

He's smaller than all of them.

[A]

Yeah. 16.

[B]

We greatly underestimate how not big rel. He and Dwight Howard, Those are the 2Y where people don't quite understand. Moses Malone is also on that list, too. Moses Malone is a listed 610. And have you ever watched a Moses MALONE video on YouTube?

[A]

Sometimes. Not very often. But what happens?

[B]

It's the most boring thing that the Internet has to offer.

[A]

Oh, is it a lot of me bounds?

[B]

It's. Look, man, I can't imagine what it was like, like, for an old Kareem Abdul Jabbar, like a early mid-30s Kareem Abdul Jabbar to be like, here we go against Moses Malone, who played like an old man from 17 on, just relentless. And it is a lot of me bounds. He doing those. But it's just. And there's no but. Imagine that as a whole strategy. There's nothing you could do about it.

[A]

It's just like a grown man is out here, and he's not. He's not gonna stop.

[B]

And he's. He's a grown man, but he's 23, right? So he has boundless energy.

[A]

Yeah. Another guy that's kind of lost the time, man. People don't talk about oblong, but I mean, again, Moses Malone's peak was what, 40, 45 years ago? So it makes sense.

[B]

Moses Malone. And it's funny. Moses Malone's peak is really like 79 to 83.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, in that stretch, you'd say really probably from 81 to 83. He has an argument for 83. He was definitely the best player in the world. Yeah. Best player in the world. And just by yo. He wasn't. No parts of that. Just, just, just, just that.

[A]

That Sixers team, too, one of the underrated champions of all time. That was. I mean, that was an all time great team.

[B]

Yeah. All time great. It's like, I don't even know if Moses Malone used, like, needed a basketball to practice.

[A]

He was with the Izzo drills.

[B]

If I'm not mistaken, he has the most free throw attempts of anybody in NBA history.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

That tells you. That tells you everything. Or if somebody passed him, it was Carl Malone. Right? Like, it's everything you need to know. Oh, wow. A lot more basketball than I thought. Coming up next, I got a sneaky suspicion that I don't talk about these dudes going back, like, these grown men going back to play college basketball. And I just. Okay.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

We'll be back. Listeners think back to a first date where you were really interested in someone. You probably asked them important questions like, what are you looking for? Well, the same goes if you're hiring. You definitely want to address key questions first to see if someone could be right for your role. That's why you need ZipRecruiter. When you post your job, ZipRecruiter suggests screening questions to help you hone in on top candidates faster. And today, you can try it for [e-mail] Bomani ZipRecruiter's matching technology immediately finds qualified candidates that check all your boxes. ZipRecruiter recommends screening questions you can easily add to get the highest quality applicants. Ask key questions and hire faster with ZipRecruiter, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.comBOMANI that's ZipRecruiter.com BOMANI Meet your match on ZipRecruiter this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We get it. February is full of flowers, candy, stuffed animals and of course, lots of talk about relationships and dating. And no matter where you are, whether you're married or dating or single or just focusing on you, you're right on time. Therapy can help you find your way and see more clearly where you want to be. An imperfect love life is common, and a little work in therapy can lead to significant progress. Whether it's for individuals or couples, therapy is an opportunity to identify what's getting in the way and help remove any blockers. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and our 12 plus years of experience in industry leading match fulfillment rate means we typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from our tailored wrecks. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally, and it works with an average of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Sign up and receive 10% [e-mail] Bomani that's betterhelp.com it's the last call for football on FanDuel. One final Sunday, one last kickoff, the final chance to place your bets before the NFL season closes its tab. This is Super Bowl 60, and FanDuel is making sure you're in on it. If you're a new customer, bet $5 and get $200 in bonus bets if you win. So whether you're backing the favorite or riding with the underdog, make it count, because after the super bowl, the season's over and football is officially done. Last call for football on FanDuel, an official sportsbook partner of Super Bowl 60. Visit FanDuel.com Bomani to get started.

[A]

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[B]

We heard you. Nine years of bring back the snack wrap and you've won. But maybe you should have asked for more. Say hello to the hot honey snack wrap. Now you've really won. Go to McDonald's and get it while you can. All right, we are back on with Joel Anderson. And so we just had this thing.

[A]

All right.

[B]

For those who've been paying attention or haven't been paying attention, rather, college basketball has a problem now, which is now that guys are getting paid to play college basketball, it's very difficult to make the argument that someone having been playing paid to play basketball is a disqualifying factor as to why or why not they should be able to play college basketball. And so we have seen guys who have played in Europe or played in the G League who are now coming back and finding spots on college basketball rosters. And now it's gone to the point where we got a dude who has actually played in the NBA who is coming back to play college basketball.

[A]

Wait, Amari, what was he say? Amari Bailey. Is that the one you talking about?

[B]

I don't remember his name.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The details weren't important to me. He has played in the NBA, did enough for what I needed here. Okay, yeah. About right now, Joel says he loves it and I'm just curious what there is to love about it. Well, hold on, hold on. Other than the fact that it makes people upset who happen to be people that Joel doesn't like.

[A]

How did you know that that was a part of it?

[B]

Because I know you.

[A]

That.

[B]

And number two, I just don't think there's anything to love here. Like, what is there to love?

[A]

Well, I mean. Okay, let me just go back for a second. I mean, a decade ago, people were complaining, man, the one and dones. Nobody wants to be in college basketball anymore. All the great players, they don't Stay very long and they leave and they. You know, and then they created all these other leagues. Overtime elite, the G League elite. You know, there was all these other leads.

[B]

G League ignite.

[A]

G league ignite. Right. Yeah. Lamelo Ball had went. Went over to wherever because he. They did not want to play college basketball. And people were like, man, nobody wants to play college basketball. And we. Even you. You've talked about the degradation of the quality of college basketball over the course of our lifetime. I fail to see how it's a bad thing for college basketball to have better college basketball players playing it. And so I'm with that. If they're going to get the kind of players that had NBA talent or potential and they want to come back and play, that makes the game more entertaining for me to watch rather than the guys that they had out there. And I think college basketball fans should be grateful that now people want to play college basketball again.

[B]

Oh, you sound like a white band. They should be grateful. They should be grateful.

[A]

I'm talking to the white folks that.

[B]

They need to be grateful.

[A]

They need to be grateful that their beloved college basketball has brothers who wants to come back and play for them. Now they were complaining about that forever. Oh, man. Nobody wants to play. They just speed on through. We can't even get attached to these guys. Well, now you got good college basketball players and you complain.

[B]

Hold on. You just gave away your own game at the end, right? Number one, I have to give you credit for this. Your ability to construct the most realistic straw man possible before. Before. Before chopping him down to the ground is incredible. Right. The majority of that time was spent building that straw man. And I understand, by the way, the. In the. The inspiration behind the straw man. So I'm not acting like you build a straw man completely out of nothing. Right? Like, there's some carbon in that. Right. There's some. There's some signs of life in it. But where. Why. I feel like to a degree, what you're talking about is straw man. And I think that you're not that big into college basketball. I think. And. But this is why. And this is not a. Not a you don't get to have no opinion sort of thing. Right. But the reason. The reason I bring that up and what informs my thinking is the way that I viewed college sports changed so much when I lived in North Carolina because I got to witness two things. What it was like for people to watch seven win football and enjoy it. Like, what the experience is of we're always going to be a Seven win football team. Right. And this is, you know, this is the space we're just in juxtaposed against those same people having completely different expectations about what basketball was, but also a place that had a. And I'm talking right now specifically about Carolina, though Duke fits in this category. And NC State, which has been the equivalent largely of seven win basketball. Seven win football just for basketball.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

People, what they have said that they've wanted, I think is not simply better college basketball players, because that has absolutely been a part of it. What people have wanted was greater levels of continuity. Right. So think about how many of our favorite college basketball players or college basketball players that we reminisce about were not going to be great pros. We enjoyed watching them in part because of the time that was accumulated watching them. A great example. Lawrence Moten, rest in peace, passed away very recently. People our age, very much so. Remember Lawrence Moten, remember the high Sox, remember all of those things. And he was a very good college basketball player. But we don't remember. We don't remember him because he was going to be a great player in the NBA. Right. Like I was watching get up before we got in here. And the trivia question was, other than Michael Jordan, who was the other number three overall pick from North Carolina in basketball? And the answer was Jerry Stackhouse. And now granted, Stackhouse was only there for two years, but what Jerry Stackhouse was and what he seemed to be as a college basketball player was bigger than in part because the brand of Carolina was bigger. And the truth was it was about those two years. Like when he came in, they were like, yo, he's he and he and she and Touche come in like, oh, he's going to be the next Jordan or whatever it is. It's not just about having good basketball players. There is something to the idea. And I know you're. You're rather cynical about this, justifiably. But there is a certain idea around college sports that is completely laid to waste. When a dude goes to the NBA, it comes back. So like, I thought it made sense. I had to come around on it. But like the guy that had gone to play G League ignite, but he never made it to the NBA and then he comes back to college. I think it was reasonable to say the G League ignite. It's professional. Ish. Right. But that was not the same as like going to the NBA. Even the guy that was in the actual. I think there's one that was in the actual G League. And then he decided to come back and was within his window of eligibility.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For his own sake, get your money. Right. Because that's the real reason we in this for. Right. These cats ain't coming. Like, this isn't exactly Rodney Dangerfield coming back. Right, right. Coming back to be on the diving team, they like, hey, man, they out here cutting these checks. If they was cutting these kind of checks before, maybe I never would have left, so forth and so on. But a guy coming back in the middle of in January to just wind up on a team, like, as a ringer, like, as a free agent, I don't think that improves college basketball. I don't think. Like, I don't think improving college basketball is just as simple as, like, your point was? I don't see why. How having good basketball players is bad for college basketball is sort of like dropping Luka Doncic off would not make college basketball better. That's an extreme example. Right. But simply because the guy is better is not going to do it. Like, I think it is cognitively dissonant when it's just like, hey, we just got somebody off the waiver wire the other day and then he just dropped in here. It may make it better to watch. This is why I brought up that not really being into college basketball. It may make it better if you drop in to watch a basketball game and now you have this better player. But for people who are most dedicated, and I'm not as dedicated as I used to be, but like, the people who follow from day one and you grow and you watch a team, you watch players mature and, like, get to a senior night where you're like, yo. I remember him way back when, or even through the course of a season. A college basketball season is a building, developing sort of thing. I find that to be what makes. If you're going to get into college basketball, because it's not because of the quality of the basketball, but if you're going to get into college basketball, those are the things that you're into. And it just gets a little bit weird when it's just like, hey, man, found this dude from Turkey. He said he. He said he could come next week. You know what I mean?

[A]

I mean, I get why people embrace and have, like, reverence for that sort of mythology around college basketball.

[B]

But it's not just mythology, though.

[A]

Like, but it's always been like, I mean, even the guys, like you said, like, Stackhouse was only really there for two years. Like, it's very few dudes that are like Marcus Fizer, Were they there for the whole four years? You know that they're probably got a limited ceiling in the. In NBA, but you can. They. They spent their four years there. You saw them growing to become a productive player, and they leave.

[B]

I think there's way more of those than you are acknowledging there. I think the national champions over all these years have typically been teams with those kind of players.

[A]

Yeah, well, so that's what. So that's the thing. I'm like, what does it. What enjoyment does it actually take away from anybody that Alabama has a 6 foot 10 guy coming off the bench with who spent a little time in the G League? I don't like. How does that actually affect your enjoyment of the game? I don't. That it wouldn't affect mine. And I know you said that I'm not a college basketball fan and I'm really. I'm not. I mean, I watched the match March Madness like the rest of y', all, but, you know, I'm a University of Houston fan, you know, and so when University of Houston is good, I get behind that.

[B]

Oh, and this kind. And this kind of shit is right up Houston's alley. Houston is. Houston is all about. Oh, is that right? There's a. There's some way we could finagle this.

[A]

Yeah, hey, man, we can make that work. You want to come through? You know what I'm saying? We got. We got it. We got a roster spot for the next three months. You know, I would. I would. I would want that. I guess the thing is, is that I guess I'm just kind of tired of the complaints about college sports, man.

[B]

So this is what I notice about you and I realize. And it worries me. We talk about this. You're not arguing the points no more. You just argue it against the people.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, because I just think that, like, people have. There's a. There's a cottage industry of just complaining about college sports. And like the players. The players don't have any loyalty or the players now, they too old. We don't want them in here. Or the players are too young, and I wish they would stay long enough. Like, it just. The guys that play college basketball, the labor force that is involved, they can never do it right. It's always wrong. Whatever. Either they not staying long enough. They stay in too long. They made. You know, they're all about money or whatever, all that kind of stuff. They didn't get better. You know, the motivations are changing. I just. I'm just like, why don't you all Just enjoy basketball. I just like basketball.

[B]

Let me ask you this question, and I was talking specifically about me. You don't think that I am arguing that the players are doing something wrong here?

[A]

I don't think you are.

[B]

Okay, but. So there's a level of the argument that goes beyond that, because I get you to a degree, like I see you give fervent defenses online of AAU basketball that, that the people that I trust in youth basketball would never dare entertain at this point. Like, I think these systems are broken and I think that a lot of these discussions are about the systems and not necessarily putting the blame on the players. Like the transfer portal situation. The transfer portal is out of control. Like they are, they, they. They've got things that they are going to need to figure out about how this works. Because no matter what the reason is, no matter whose fault it is, all these guys left standing with no chairs when the music stops playing becomes its own issue.

[A]

Don't you think that, I mean, that's the NCAA's fault and that is the administrators and coaches.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

They could do something about that.

[B]

Right. But acting like it's not a pro, acting, ignoring the problem in the name of defending the players, I think is.

[A]

What is the problem.

[B]

To me, there are a couple of problems. Number one, the advice economy around college football in particular is underdeveloped and leaving players in incredibly vulnerable situations. To me right now, the biggest problem that is not discussed enough is the fact that a lot of these nil contracts are entirely one sided. I think these players are like, that's the thing that happened with this kid at Duke. Like if you go look at the quarterback that's going to go to Miami, if you go look at what that contract was, he never had a chance in trying to challenge that. Like it was very much so. All the power in that contract wound up going to Duke. That's a huge problem. But that is also part of the advice economy that I think is being negative toward players. I do think a lot of these guys are being advised just to go try because look, this is the one chance for them to get money in many cases. And so somebody tell you, we think you can get a little bit more money over here, you might be able to get a little bit more money over there, but this thing is so unregulated that I don't think you're necessarily winning by making these moves in that way. Is it the NCAA's fault? Yes, because at every turn they beg somebody else to solve their problem for them. But it doesn't change the fact that within that construct it's a lot of people on a lot of sides making a lot of bad decisions.

[A]

I, I so which by the way.

[B]

Which is their God given American right. But I would, I would like to find ways that they didn't have to make bad decisions cuz they not all getting fucked over by their coaches and getting forced off of their scholarship.

[A]

They're not all. But I think that that is an under underreported and under told story of this though. And I think that it like it is very much in the interest of the power brokers in the sport to make it seem like it's players chasing money rather than the Dion's, the, the Kenny Dillinghams, the Kurt Signettis turning over there. How do you think a team gets good like all for one year to the next? Like they turning over these rosters. Like when Dion first did it in Colorado it was just sort of like wow, they've got like 80 different players this year. How did they do that? And he was very clear about what he was going to do it and how he was going to do it. Right. That is like kind of the expectation when you bring in a new coach now that you're just going to turn over a roster. Right. So you're putting a whole bunch of guys into the system right now. And I don't think, I think that that is happening a lot and more than people give credit for. I think that like if, if the system was such that college football players didn't have to compete for their spot every year, Every year in my, my, my, my co host Van Lathan said this on the show. If you are FBS player every year you're competing for your spot against everybody else in college football. There's no telling where, where your competition is going to come from. If you were a middling right guard at Vanderbilt, you have no idea if they're going to buy somebody and come from Florida to take your spot or maybe somebody from Murray State will come up, there's a good prospect to take your spot. Everybody is sort of on a one year timeline and so I just think that like yes. Is it ideal? No. But I think that like there is a way that these teams and the NCAA could do, could, could change it and make it a more favorable situation for everybody. But, but they don't want to do that. And I think, I think, I think there's an element of them liking this chaos because they're hoping that Trump and the Congress are going to come in and save them all. Right.

[B]

That's. That's always been the case. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I also think two things could be true at once. Right. Which is, yes, there is definitely some roster turnover that is taking place and there are also questions to be asked about. And this also comes up in the NFL with the discussion of guaranteed contracts, whether you could really have a properly functioning economy of labor in that sport given certain levels of guarantees.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So much, so much change is so fast. The injury risk is so much higher and players like getting really good out of nowhere. And what comes with that, like, that's. It's, it's. It's not as simple as we would all prefer for it to be. I think is. Is the way that I would put that. But I do agree, like, Dion came in and told everybody, there ain't going to be no place for you here. We'll help you cut up your tape and we'll help you send it out. But there's not. It. It ain't for you here. You're right. That part does happen. I don't think that part is as under discussed as you think it is. I don't, but I don't. I think this is the feeling that I. I don't get the feeling that people are blaming players. I get the feeling that people are blaming the adults around these players. And I think that that's what all of us are doing, no matter the side the. Whether the adults be coaches, whether the adults be whatever, whoever the advisor happens to be, wherever it comes from. I don't know how anybody can be expected to get good advice. I think that's because. Because the game is so big and so spread out. So like the idea when you talk about if you're an FBS player, you're competing every year for your spot, you're not just competing against the FBS guys. Trinidad Chambers is over there at some school that you've never heard of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, ready to get a state.

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

And all the transferring, to me, what is bad about it is the losers wind up being the players. But you're also right, if you're a quarterback, they looking at another one. Is it there's. Would you say, also. I wonder. There is also, to a degree, some chicken and egg going on here. Right. The coaches are looking because they can get better. But also at the same time, you also got to look because they ain't no telling when this dude might vamp on you.

[A]

Right. Well, I mean, like the Duke and the Darien Mensa situation is like a really good illustration of this. They're really mad, man. Miami came in and strong armed them at their quarterback. They did that to Tulane the year before, and they gonna do it to somebody else to bring somebody else in to replace Daria Mensah, including recruiting over a high school quarterback that I'm certain that they recruited and said, hey, you don't get a chance. You might get a chance to play, but they're gonna bring somebody else in. And so, yeah, like, that is the chicken and egg part of it. And that's why I'm like, if the NCAA and all these coaches and everybody wanted to change this, the dynamics here, they would do it. They could. They could do it.

[B]

I agree with that.

[A]

It is within their power to do it and to our. And to. And to advocate for a better work workforce system. But they don't want to do that.

[B]

I agree with that. And I also say this one, though. The. They brought somebody in over me. I don't have no sympathy for that one.

[A]

Hey, Doc, that's.

[B]

That's the game, right?

[A]

I mean, bro, that's. I mean, anybody that's an athlete and you, you know, like, because they always talk, you know, and this. This is maybe just another straw man, or whatever. Like, kids don't want to compete. Kids want participation ribbons. They don't want to fight. Look, bro, from the time you start playing sports, you know who's better than you, you know, what you got to compete against, you know that, like, hey, man, somebody might be take my spot. Like, you're. If you're in sport, you're always sort of aware of that. And so, yeah, like, I don't. It does suck if a kid does. They bring somebody in over you. But you know that, like, if you don't perform and this kid is better than me, you also understand coaches going coach got a plan.

[B]

Well, hold on. I do think. I think saying they don't want to compete is a fair hypothesis to explore. And this. But this is. Here's what I'm saying. Anything, man, you don't want. You don't want to hear some of.

[A]

This besides, go ahead, go ahead.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But this is the part I do think that you would agree with. And this is not something new. This has gone on for a really long time, which is all this maneuvering to find a place that you can play right now, right? And this. This goes on in high schools. Hell, this goes on in middle schools. Like, oh, I did not. I'm not the starter right now at this place. Okay, well, I'mma go somewhere else. Where they are going to wind up making me the starter. Like the game is find the, find the path of least resistance in this. There's something to that. Now there's some schools where you go look at the depth chart like USC used to be like this. It's going to be three five star quarterbacks on this depth chart. Right. And if you are the number three, but you are a junior and the other two are sophomores. Hey, I get it. You might need to go somewhere else. Right. The days of DJ Shockley sitting behind David Green for three years. Right. That's golf team Harden. But. But I make the argument for a lot of those guys and where I think they mess up and they get it wrong, man. You only need one year of film, man. Like this idea that you got to go somewhere else in order to get this done.

[A]

Yeah, but. Yeah. How am I gonna get my money though?

[B]

Well, we'll see. But now, but see that is where this. But see that's where this is a little bit of a black box situation. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is what is the money that you're getting for not. Because look, if you. Especially with quarterback. Let's just talk about quarterback. If you talk about playing an NFL long game, then that money's the money you need to be thinking about. Right? So let's try this. An interesting case in the transfer world was when Jameson Williams left Ohio State and went to Alabama. You couldn't blame him, right? He was Ohio State's number four receiver.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was a top 15 pick. Yeah, right. I get it. But if you was like that number three Ohio State receiver, I know you gonna get your bag. If you just stick around here. I know it's gonna work out for you. Cause I've seen, I've seen what it, what they done right for these other cats.

[A]

Right? But do you know what, but you know what, do you know what changes the equation for that number three receiver? And I'm not saying this is right or wrong. Whatever. Oh man, my receiving coach ain't here no more. My offensive coordinator has changed. I don't know if I have a great relationship with the quarterback that's going to throw me the ball this year. Things are changing everywhere, all around you. Like, it's just like you're not necessarily making a decision just for yourself. You're looking at the situation around you and be like, well, shit, they're going to bring in two more five stars. Chris Henry Jr. Coming in somebody else going to be calling players this year.

[B]

So like some of that I could get, get. Right. But I would like to know how many of these cats is rolling somewhere else for like another hundred grand?

[A]

Yeah, man.

[B]

And I would say that in many cases. And it's easy for me to say because I don't need that money.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But at the same, but, but that's not, that's not for the, that money that I need. The money is not for the kid. You understand what I'm saying? Like, like there is, there is, there appears to be a short sightedness in some of the decisions that are being made on all sides.

[A]

I need all my bills paid right now and my mama might need all her bills paid right now, you know, And I may not be able to bank on waiting eight years into the future where I can make my second contract. Like you have a finite amount of time to take advantage of all this stuff.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm telling you right now, but these boys that we are talking about, in large part all of them are leaving a place that has given them enough money to pay those bills that you described to go to another place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And some of these cats is going from. And of their own volition, some of them, not all, but some of them are going from being able to pay in their mama's bills to not being able to pay their mama's bills on the basis of a bad decision. And so that's why I say this has become professional sports. But these are not pros. And the people advising them by and large are not pros.

[A]

Man, I hear you on that and I know that you come from a good place with this. Cause you've also had experience with these kids on a really intimate level. You've worked with college kids at that ever. But man, we just don't worry about 10 tennis, tennis players golf because they're already rich. Why are we? I mean, I just like, I just feel like it's kind of like patriotism.

[B]

You asking me why I would worry more about the boys that play football than I would worry about the boys that play golf?

[A]

Okay, let me ask you this question. Do you really believe that coaches, like the college football coaches have a better sense and are more invested in the kid than the people that are around this kid and have brought them up and have spent money for them to do quarterback training? Go to this camp? Go to this camp? I mean, like, no, I don't.

[B]

But I'm not arguing, but I'm not arguing against the coaches. I'm Arguing against the point. I mean, I guess I got to tell you, the. The advice economy around this is shaky.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, think about. There are guys in the NFL who don't have good agents.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Okay. And that. So who. So who the hell you think is advising these kids?

[A]

A great point, but that is a problem of life. Not necessarily of, you know, because the transfer portal has done this or anything.

[B]

No, but. But we're here now. Like. Like, that's the. I think that on all sides of it, no matter who we're talking about, if you stop arguing the side and look at where we are, there's enough to go around. But I don't think it's as skeptical and cynical as I am about the coaches and the administrators. That ain't changing the fact that there's, like, there's a lot that everybody gotta get right about this.

[A]

If you're a coach or an administrator and you watch the Bomani Jones show or you watch the Ring of Tailgate show, here's what I want you to do. Advocate for collective bargaining. That's what I want you to do. But let's formalize this. Like, let's make this a more equitable and stable system for everybody. You can do that. Instead of getting on TV and complaining and hoping that your Daddy Trump is going to come in and save you, you can.

[B]

It just. I mean, so. It just. So basically what you're saying, though, and this is the biggest sticking point, is make the players employees.

[A]

I mean, bro. I mean, they getting paid now.

[B]

I mean, they are employees. I understand you. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying. But that's. To put that in other terms. Yeah, that is what it is. But I'm gonna tell you this, though. Collective bargaining for all of these children. You won't talk about herding cats.

[A]

Like, this is gonna be tough.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, how do they like football? Like pro football, for example? They can barely get anything done because they basically have four different classes of players.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Who are the. Like, who are the members that vote for this? Who do you decide? How do you decide who's gonna be in charge all of this? Like, I agree with you that that is the best solution. I think that people who say that undersell what it'll take to arrive at said solution. And all of this has happened because instead of planning for this over the years, they just kick the can, kick the can, kick the can. And now it's such an unwieldy mess that I don't know how you wind up fixing it.

[A]

But this doesn't seem sustainable. Like, like, I mean, this doesn't seem any easier, you know what I mean? So, like we might as well start moving and advocating toward what is inevitable. Like, don't, Don' you think that that is actually inevitable? Like what we're talking about, that they're just going to formalize these working relationships and make them employees? Like that's going to happen eventually. And every day that they don't push for that, we're wasting time.

[B]

Yeah, but I have no idea when that day is actually going to come because I don't know what it'll take to arrive at that place. I mean, look, they just got to a place where teaching assistants could unionize. Right? But this collective bargain that would need to take, is it on a school level? Is it on a national level? Like when you, when you envision it? Because we saw what happened with Northwestern, tried to go down that road, like, yeah, this is, these games were never intended to be about this much money. That's like, that's, that's really fundamentally what it comes down to is that the economies that have sprouted up around this were never intended to be what they are.

[A]

That's right. I'm just. The thing is I, that is true. But now that it is, I don't just want the coaches and I don't just want the athletic directors and all the little patronage jobs that the, that the black at mostly black athletes never have access to. They don't hardly. Very few of them get to go on and be the assistant athletic director or the, this person working in the athletic department or whatever. And so like now that, that, now that football has grown and it has become this huge billion dollar industry, I want them to get every dollar that they're owed because I know that they're only going to be. They're going to have to claw it out of the people's hands and out of their banks. That's what I want.

[B]

I hope they get it too. I just need you. I don't know how much you, you a Domino's player, you know, so, so just say no.

[A]

No, look, I'm just.

[B]

Gimme.

[A]

Let me tell you a story.

[B]

Just, just, just. I'm gonna shout out my boy.

[A]

And you know him because you work with him at that foot record.

[B]

Hey, it's a yes or no question, brother.

[A]

I, I don't play regularly, okay? I'm beating people.

[B]

I just need just five words, just five words, but okay, all money ain't good money.

[A]

But I Want. I want money, though.

[B]

But I hear all money ain't good money.

[A]

Let me figure out what part of the money is going to be bad.

[B]

That's. Hey, look, everybody has the right to make bad decisions, right? I just be feeling like you, you be trying to defend bad decisions just because you don't like the other people.

[A]

I don't like the other people, but also like, let me have the money and then. And we'll figure it out from there. I want the money first. It's better for me to have the money.

[B]

But if you have to make a bad decision in order to get the money and figure it out, the figure it out part needed to happen before the money. Sometimes I just don't want the money.

[A]

Give me the money. Yeah. I say this to somebody who's broke, so maybe that's what. That's my.

[B]

I can't even lie. I wasn't going to say it out loud.

[A]

Yeah, I'm broke.

[B]

But I was like, ah, yes, I'm.

[A]

Talking as a broke person.

[B]

I was about to say, I was so hard. Listen to that broke Negro mentality.

[A]

I'm just saying, look, man, everybody can't go to Barbados.

[B]

You know, it's easy for me. Oh, man. And that Barbados trip, I'd scoff at that now. Yeah, it's easy. It's easy for me to be looking at people being like, all money ain't good money though.

[A]

Right? Right.

[B]

Like, yeah, I bet it ain't. I bet it ain't. Well, give me some of your bad money then, dog. How about that?

[A]

That's what I'm saying. $15,000 changed my life.

[B]

Life.

[A]

I was like, I would take it right now.

[B]

$15,000 would change your month.

[A]

That would be. I would appreciate that month a lot, but. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, you would. I know, I understand. I understand. Joel Anderson, check him out on the ring and tailgate. Check him out on the press box. Hopefully by the time you get around to checking him out, he will have stopped.

[A]

I invented it. I can do it. You know what I'm saying? It's a gimmick. I get it.

[B]

I mean, look, it's okay.

[A]

I'm not as famous as Bomani. I ain't never had an HBO show. I ain't never.

[B]

I used to. I've never been in roof. I used to carry. I used to carry the big gold belt on national television. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm telling you, it's game recognized game. It's not. I'm just telling you that we need to get you something a little bit Stronger.

[A]

You don't like.

[B]

You don't like to raise the roof.

[A]

You don't like to raise the roof.

[B]

Okay, well, it's not even just the raise. If you had done that, you were doing the two hand raise the roof, maybe that would be one thing. But you got a whole wind up. You do the Dante Culpeppa and then you raise the rule.

[A]

There's a story behind that because the two hand one is not the original, not the version that I found it and it was perverted and when it went national. But on the south side of Houston, they know who is they. They south side of Houston. Shout out. Shout out. Drumsticks, shout out. Jamaica. Jamaica. Shout out. Oasis. Shout out.

[B]

Joe.

[A]

Is it Chocolate Town? Chocolate Town's on the north side.

[B]

Chocolate Town's on the north side.

[A]

North side.

[B]

Yeah, you remember Bust Down? Bust down, Bust Down. Dude from New Orleans who had that song Nasty?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I once saw him at Chocolate town. I was 17 years old. I saw him at Chocolate Towel. He was opening for Slim Thug.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Who was also 17. You didn't like to point out you.

[A]

Had no business being in there, man.

[B]

Like I said, Slim Thug was performing. He was also 17.

[A]

I mean, it just. Just. I mean, it was. That was. Man, we didn't even say nothing about Michael 5,000 watts, dog.

[B]

You know, rest in peace.

[A]

Rest in peace, Michael 5,000. Watch, man.

[B]

Let me say the importance of 5,000 watts. The whole Swisher House thing was that was a legitim. That was legitimizing that Northside life in a way that really hadn't happened up until that point. Right. And it wasn't like there wasn't rappers. That was from the north side, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But nah, having Swisher House gave game change.

[A]

Yeah, it. I mean, it brought. I think it brought the city together in a way, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Over overall switch, the house had better rappers.

[A]

I give you that. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. We all hit.

[B]

There you go. Shout out to Paul, shout out to Hakeem. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, damn. I completely forgot about this. And we're patching this into the podcast. I don't even know where we're patching it in, but I'm gonna ask everybody this until I get bored with it. Joel, what would be the first funniest name to turn up in the Epstein Files? I say Tim Tebow.

[A]

Oh, wow. That's a really good one. That's a really good one. You know, it wouldn't be funny, but I would love to see him have to talk to Tom Brady. I would love to see him. Brady at the top.

[B]

It would be. It would. You're right. It wouldn't be funny.

[A]

It would be, ooh, like, Tom.

[B]

Hey, I tell you this. Oh, I forgot Epstein was a Democrat, because I was about to say it's a little bit surprised that Bill Belichick ain't turned up in there.

[A]

I mean, a lot of his homies in there.

[B]

We could play this game for the rest of our lives. Funny names to turn up in the Epstein file.

[A]

Look, man, I just. I've been going through it just every now and again, like, oh, let me put that name in there.

[B]

I got one. Lou Holtz. Oh.

[A]

Oh, man. Man. And you know what? That is his crew.

[B]

That's his squad.

[A]

That's his squad, man. Look. Cause he was on some American America, first thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

With folks. So.

[B]

Yeah, that man lost his job doing a commercial for Jesse Helms.

[A]

I mean, he's. I mean, he has died in the wood for this shit, bro. And. And look, and the funny thing about this, for people don't know, he just lost his job at Arkansas.

[B]

Arkansas.

[A]

Ar.

[B]

It was a different time. It was a different time. Well, for one, they wanted to fire him anyway. I think that's the important note. But also, don't forget, Lou Holtz brought black ass prop 48 ass Tony Rice to win a national championship at Notre Dame and hired Charlie Strong as defensive coordinator in South Carolina in 2001. I say all that to say it's just a little weird out here in.

[A]

These football streets, people are complicated.

[B]

It's weird in these streets, people are complicated.

[A]

I got a homeboy that played for holtz in the 90s. He's from Missouri City. He's a legend. Jimmy. Jimmy Friday. That's right. And. And I'm not. I hope I'm not talking out of school, Jimmy, but I think he's. It's complicated, like how he feels about Lou Holtz.

[B]

Yep. But hey, keep thinking. Next time I'll ask you for another Epstein day. I'm gonna start preparing people.

[A]

I'll be ready for it.

[B]

All right, ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the Right Time. We do this four times a week. Ryan Brumley handles everything behind the scenes. Thank you, sir. Hit the voicemail line. 323-59-67767. Remember, follow the right time. Subscribe like, rate us, review us, give us five stars, you only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. And we'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.