← The Right Time with Bomani Jones
The Right Time with Bomani Jones
Pat Forde on Crazy Dan Hurley, Billy Donovan to UNC Rumors, Will Wade to LSU | 04.01
00:53:52
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- [00:00]
A
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C
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Right Time, a Wave original. My name is Bomani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is that time of week where we have a guest join us. Coming to us from si.com it is final four week with the weekend coming up. Pat40 what's going on?
- [01:17]
A
Hey, Bo, Great to be on with you. Should be a great Final four. I know that you may still be highly amused and enjoying the the demise of Duke, but the rest of us certainly were amazed by that shot and that story as well.
- [01:32]
C
Yeah, yeah. It's gonna take everything in me to wait until the second half of the show to talk about what's going on there. It was a good day for a lot of people, man. It was actually interesting. Was it Chris Venini at the Athletic? He had hit me up and it was funny because I became aware of him because I used to send out a tweet every year to be like, hey, tell me who's covering these teams for college papers? Cause that's a great way to find who's gonna be next. That's how I met my good buddy Jon Jones. Cbs, for example, was. And Chris was at Michigan State at the time. And then he hits me and says, hey, I'm doing the story about whether people hate Duke as much as they used to. You want to talk about it? And I was like, okay, cool, we could talk about it. And I told him I thought it had died down, but I was somewhat incorrect. That being said, I am disappointed a little bit that they're not in this final four, but this is A strong Final Four. I feel like we've got with Arizona, Michigan, Yukon and Illinois.
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A
It's great. It's a really good final Four. I think on the one side you have two of the three dominant teams for the whole season in Arizona and Michigan. The third one, oh, we know what happened to them. But you got, I think outstanding teams with very few weaknesses and they're going to play each other and I think the winner of that will win the championship. But on the other side, you have the dominant program of the 21st century, UConn, and also winner of two of the last three national championships and getting there on an all time play and shot. And then you got an Illinois team that's been outstanding all season as well. Number one offense in the country in the analytics, some people say the number one offense analytically of all time. With the, you know, Balkan invasion of players from Europe there. It's fascinating to me. You've got, you know, the Big Ten's chance to finally break through and win a championship, which I think has been almost as much a matter of mere like coincidence as any real fundamental weakness there. And we can talk about that. But you've got again the, the Yukon, the dominant brand out there and you've got the possibility of, of Arizona winning a championship again for the first time since 1997, also in Indianapolis. So there's a lot to chew on.
- [03:42]
C
All right, so I want to start with ucon. Cause you just said something that it's a interesting discussion which is UConn as the most dominant program of the 21st century. Which is interesting because it has not been the most consistent program of the 21st century. Right. So like North Carolina, for example, has basically been 50, 60 years of consistency. There have been a couple of blips here and there, but by and large they're the most spoiled fans in sports because they've been at a. The floor has been so, so high decade after decade after decade. But quietly, Yukon has won six national championships with three different coaches in the last 26 years. I think this is the 27th we're talking about because they won the first one in 1999 with no actual factual built in advantage as to why they should have been so successful. But they have. But it doesn't feel like they are what you have described except the fact that they've won six national championships in 27 years.
- [04:45]
A
Yeah. In a period in which Carolina's one three Dukes won three. Right. They've literally doubled them in that period of time. So if you go, if you, if you grant them the grace period to go back to 99 and start there and go forward in terms of hardware. Yeah. Now your point is absolutely right in terms of the consistency where, you know, Duke and Carolina have been to plenty of Final Fours, but not one. Right. Yukon either goes the Final Four and wins it all, go to the Final Four and sometimes they crash out early, sometimes don't make the tournament, sometimes they're on probation, whatever, you know, but they, they to have done it with three different coaches, as you said, you know, poor Kevin Ollie, he just kind of gets, he gets flyover. You know, it was like Calhoun Hurley. Oh yeah. There was that one title in 2014 when everyone was terrible and you guys won it. It's. It's remarkable. It really is. And like you said, no built in advantages. People who have been to stores. No, there are no built in advantages there. And whatever, by whatever miracle they were able to get kids from Houston and Los Angeles and Seattle to come to stores. I don't know, but I mean they built some powerful teams with some great players over a long period of time.
- [05:56]
C
Yeah. And it's the Kevin Ali flyover is interesting because it was a weird year in 2014, right. Because part of it was that was the year Kansas had Embiid and Embiid got hurt and they wound up losing in the second round. Wichita State was undefeated and then you could have made a documentary about it if they had won. That was the year of that Kentucky team that barely made the tournament, but they were loaded. And then they kind of screwed Wichita State over because they had a made for TV rounded 32 game, but they won every game by a point or two. A point or two or point or two. And then they got up against this Yukon team, the Shabazz Napier team that nobody thought was that good. And next thing you know they were national champions. Then you fast forward to Hurley and look, Calhoun to me is the most underrated of the great coaches of that time for all the reasons that we just spelled out. Like even getting Yukon competitive before the title at like starting really in 1990 in that era of the Big east, again with no advantages. Right? Because I think eventually they became kind of a go to program in the Northeast, but it had to become that. And they weren't that. But they still had that team, I think, where Christian Laitner beat him with the shot in 1990, the Tate George team. But you get the Ray Allen team in 1996, you've got all these others. And now you get Hurley and Hurley And Calhoun, they don't care if we like them. They're just going to win some games. And it's good that they don't care if we like them because they make it really difficult.
- [07:22]
A
Yes, they do. And Calhoun always did. I mean, part of what made him good was he was so pugnacious all the time with everyone. You know, I mean, that dude was hard to get along with and also very hard to beat because he was so hard to get along with. He just would. He refused to accept anything other than, you know, I'm going to get the best players and then I'm going to beat you. So he was, he was a force of nature and yeah, to have done it there. They got no history, no tradition, none of that. Come in and see our banners up here. You know, they had none. And then all of a sudden the switch flips in the 90s and then by 99, when they beat whatever. At that time people were saying that Duke team was one of the greatest teams of all time and it was a wagon brand and Chris Trajan, Langdon and whoever. Anyway. But then, since then, yeah, incredible. And then the Dan Hurley thing has been unbelievable. And he is a phenomenal coach and he is very much like Calhoun in terms of like, he rides that ragged edge between I'm going to coach or I'm going to fight. I mean, talk about being on that edge. I still cannot believe he did what he did with Roger Ayers, the official. You have just had this massive shot to win one of the biggest games of your life. And your reaction after pulling your coat half off of your body is to then get in the face, face to face with Roger Ayers and almost like provoke a confrontation. Roger Ayers. I think it is very fortunate for Danny Hurley, the Roger Ayers is not the guy to make a scene and is not going to afterwards say, yeah, he shouldn't have done that. In fact, he'll go the other way and say, no, that was my fault, I shouldn't have been this way, you know, but what are you, what is possibly going mind at that point? What are you doing?
- [09:14]
C
He's a crazy person. And I have to say, and I've talked about this on other shows, I'm glad we got one of these back. Right. Like, coaches have got. Coaches have gotten kind of boring. Right? Like he doesn't seem to go all the way into the full night territory where we're having now a completely different discussion about what it is. But no, this is. He, he, he's that guy. Cuz Calhoun Calhoun wasn't a fun jerk. He was just kind of an obvious jerk. Right. Like Hurley is walk out the tunnel and boo him.
- [09:43]
A
Oh, yeah, you know, we, we, we,
- [09:45]
C
we don't have a lot of those guys left. And also you hit it, man. It's a really, really good coach. Like there's, there's no way around this in this team, which it kind of struggled to hold it together all year. And he, he said it would get better. It got better.
- [09:59]
A
Yeah, no, he's, he's a, he's a brilliant coach, an outstanding coach. His father, you know, I think he's one of the great pure basketball coaches ever at Jersey City, St. Anthony's you know, he just, he stayed at the high school level and Dan, I think is not far from him in a lot of ways. Ability to motivate, ability to exit O and strategize and those sorts of things. And then. Yeah, you're right, he is, he is the fun jerk. Because he does, he is a magnet for everything, for praise, for criticism. And he's like, bring it on, I don't care. And then eventually the hilarious thing what kills me, Bo, is like every single year, maybe once, maybe twice, maybe even three times a year, Danny will have this self actualization moment and say, yeah, you know, I need to do things differently and I've handles and I do some yoga and this sort of thing. And so I think, you know, you know, no, no, you're the same wild man. All, you can say it, but it doesn't matter. You're the same wild man. And that's just the way he's wired and it's great for the sport, frankly.
- [11:05]
C
Let me tell you, a bizarro world. I just thought of like, what if he had been the one to go to Duke and Bobby had been the one to go somewhere else Because Bobby does not take to that. Like, after being coached by his father, Krzyzewski could not quite deal with Hurley the way he dealt with everybody else because of what it was. And if you haven't read Adrian Wojnowski book the miracle of St. Anthony, it's worth checking out. And I felt like it soft pedaled a little bit, the intensity of, of Bob Hurley senior as coach. But if you had put Hurley and Shasheski together, I mean, look, Hurley did enough to himself.
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A
Yeah.
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C
When he was in college just, you know, being over the top about this. But Illinois, I watched them and it's funny you talked about the Balkans because I talked about on this show, Chicago is a very Eastern European city. And it was the first time that I looked out and was like, hey, you guys may have been missing out on a little advantage you guys might have had going around there. But that game against Iowa, which I thought the final score did not indicate it, that was a really good game and they had to really keep it together in order to win that game. Like, what do you think their chances are against Yukon?
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A
Yeah, I actually, I think they're better than Yukon. We'll see if they're as well coached and kind of still have that championship DNA, you know, that the Alex Cariban led team will probably have. But I think Illinois is better. Yes, the game against Iowa impressed me because in the past Brad Underwood teams have found a moment in the tournament where they'll just freak out and melt down. If you remember, I think it was, it was against Duke in the regional final a couple of years ago where they were outscored like 100 to nothing to start the second half. It's like a good game and all of a sudden it is the worst game you've ever watched and you're like, Illinois should just leave the floor. Just give up, go get your stuff and get on the bus. Before that, they lost to Loyola, Illinois, Loyola Chicago in the second round with a really good team. So to break through, I think to win that game in some stressful situations against a coach that was just going to make you play, his aggravating, slow style was impressive. And the way they did it, they just, they pounded their advantage, man, they just took it inside with their two seven footers and their six, nine guy and just went to the rim and made it happen. And I think they're equipped certainly to win one game, possibly to win two in Indy. If you catch a, a worn out opponent in the Monday night game, which has happened before, Faisal Am Jimma against North Carolina State, Wisconsin, I think in 2015 against Duke after beating undefeated Kentucky, it's hard to have 80 minutes of max intensity at the Final Four.
- [13:47]
C
It is a different world obviously now, but Illinois is such an interesting program historically where one could argue the great underachiever that given a lot of the advantages that one would have expected that they had, especially when the game was a lot more regional, that this is a team that has been to so few Final Fours historically. But any. I feel like we're at a time as much as anything else where you can sneak one, right? Like just about anybody can sneak one.
- [14:16]
A
Sure, yeah. No, absolutely, yes, it could be done. And that, yeah, like the 2005 team was an outstanding team. They just ran into an outstanding North Carolina team in a great game. One of the, I think underrated championship games. The 1989 team that lost to Michigan. Michigan wins the title. That took a. A putback shot by Sean Higgins at the final couple seconds for Michigan to win that. Those were good Illinois teams. Historically, you're 100% correct. That a school with that proximity to Chicago and other great areas of basketball for has produced zero national championships is crazy. But I think the program is positioned now. Hey, yes, you're going to Croatia and Serbia, wherever you got to go to get guys. But. But they're getting guys and they've got a program that's built, I think, for the long haul.
- [15:07]
C
Yeah, that's one of those programs that has. It's like coach legend who was really good at ball rolling. You know, your alma mater got one of those a ball rollers name I believe is on the court. But it was always fun to watch him.
- [15:25]
A
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's funny, you know, like as a Missouri alum, people think Norm Stuart was Bob Knight in terms of tactical genius. No, no, I'm. I hate to inform you that was not the case. It was. The best teams had very good players and still never made a Final Four. So. Yeah, man.
- [15:43]
C
So we got the other game. Michigan. Arizona is very interesting one. Michigan at their best looks is just about as good as anybody can, in part because they've got a guy in his physical prime at 37 years old, bringing the ball up the floor every time. But he looked yaxel. He looked dominant over the weekend.
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A
It's unbelievable. Like that guy that's. I said, you know, I mean, it was pretty clear. I think most people thought Boozer was the best player this year. There's no doubt who's the best player still playing. It's Yax Lindborg. Who he's 23 years old, three years of juco, Arizona Western, two years of UAB. And then talk about going to the right place at the right time. Holy cow. Him with Dusty May has been a lethal combination and he's showing the full arsenal now. You know, he was just like wild man offensive rebounder at uab. Now the offensive game is incredible. Running the floor and with the guys that are around him, he's just a perfect fit there. And, and he's playing great. And yeah, I mean, Michigan is, is just crushing people again. They, they. They were doing that early in the year and then, you know, people, it's the Big Ten. You're not going to crush everybody. But then what they've done in the tournament has been extremely impressive. And I actually, I tweeted, I think it was December 13th, I said I'm tempted to take Michigan and Arizona against the field. One of the few times I may actually be right. I still could end up being wrong, but. But those two teams, I think have been that good all year.
- [17:22]
C
Yeah, the. In watching the game, the game that Michigan played against Tennessee and I mean, Tennessee was just overmatched. Like, as much as I love to get off a good Rick Barnes joke, I don't think that there was anything that Rick Barnes could have possibly. Rick Barnes, by the way, has gotten into three straight Elite Eights. It's like, like, let's just throw that out there for those of us who have always kind of like, eh, I don't know about that guy. Okay. Sometimes you just need 35 years right before you, you know, really hit your stride and get to the place that you're supposed to be. But the way that Landerboard played, I didn't even realize he was a big man in the way that he's just getting the ball, facing up, taking it to the basket with a coach that if Florida Atlantic doesn't go on that run, I don't know where he is. Like, it was all like. Like, that was another one where it's kind of like, you know, that was a pretty ambitious hire that you made considering there wasn't that much of a track record. And it's clearly paid off.
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A
Oh, yeah, no. Dusty May's a superstar, man. It's unbelievable. And yeah, like, the first couple years at, at, at FAU were not very good, but the program sucked and, you know, he didn't have anything. And then all of a sudden he puts together this team, 2023, and you're watching them, and I thought they were just phenomenal. It was just like, how did they go from 0 to 100 like this? And then he kept most of them for the next year. And they were really good in 2024 as well. Made the tournament again. And I really, I was a believer in Dusty, and boy, the market was very hot for him. Michigan outflanked
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C
Louisville.
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A
Louisville wanted him badly. Vanderbilt was in on it. Ohio State made a fateful decision to keep Jake Deibler interim coach when I think Dusty would have had interest in that job. And he goes to your arch rival and takes the arch rival to the Final Four. An Elite Eight in the first year, Final Four in the second year. Not bad.
- [19:14]
C
By the way.
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A
That was a. Oh, one other thing. Sorry to interrupt. Indiana made the fateful decision to keep Mike Woodson at the behest of some interested alums, including Quinn Buckner, instead of getting rid of him when they could have brought Dusty May home and they didn't. And he goes again. He goes to a Big Ten rival.
- [19:33]
C
Yeah, that was number one. That was a great year to be the number one guy to try to hire. Just throw that part out there. The names that you throw out, all looking for coaches or potentially looking for coaches at the same time. Big win for that guy. You would also mention that earlier. The Big Ten or just the larger discussion of the Big Ten, because if we're talking 10 years ago, I think is even safe to say 15 is even safer. The Big Ten in both football and men's basketball. Big name results. Not quite right. It was. It was. But it was truly a quaint in a lot of ways, a quaint regional conference. They enjoy playing against each other. That had always been the concern. But the money game has changed up so much and now they are an absolute force in everything.
- [20:17]
A
Yeah, no, no doubt about it. Women's basketball and other sports as well. But yeah, the money has changed things for sure. You know, the, the streak of no title since 2000. Hey, it's a thing for real. They had a lot of chances. They had that good Illinois team I mentioned.
- [20:36]
C
Yes.
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A
In OH, 5, they had good Michigan teams that ran into Louisville and Villanova. They had Wisconsin in 2015, Ohio State with Greg Odin that ran into the second year of the Florida dynasty. So they had chances. They just didn't have the best team this year. It looks very much like they might have the best team, unless Arizona says otherwise. And this season, I thought it was by far the best league. So you combine what they're doing right now with what the football has done with three different champions. Three in three different years. And, and you look at the revenue going back to when, you know, they brought in those schools from. They, they killed the PAC 12 and juiced up the, the, the, the media contracts. It's been a game changer.
- [21:22]
C
Yeah. And, and doing what you can to beef up the middle of the conference matters and things like Nebraska being good because I think they have been down for so long. But it's easy to forget, like Danny nee in the 90s had a team there that consistently made it to the NCAA tournament back when the game was to get you a coach that was from New York and had a line to New York. And there were always Boys that needed to get far away from home. And there were. Look, Nebraska's whole recruiting strategy in football and basketball for decades was we could keep them out of trouble. Send them all the way over here, we could keep them out of trouble.
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A
Didn't always work in football in terms of keeping them out of trouble, but they still won a lot of games.
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C
Yeah, that's the problem when you get a bunch of people that are supposed to be kept out of trouble. They get each other into trouble once they wind up in the same place. But I think you're right, like adding UCLA and you know, the weirdest program to evaluate how good they should or should not be based on history and everything else. But you add them to your basketball conference, you're going to get better. And this is at a time right now where Maryland, which should be better at everything, but Maryland's at the bottom of the conference now Indiana, which I don't know about you, but I always feel like it could still happen, right? Like this is, it's, it's it the idea that Indiana is no longer a blue blood one. I don't think that's how blue blood stuff works. But to the right person can make that job go because they care so much.
- [22:44]
A
100% they care. That's it. And that's, you know, it's like Texas football. Eventually you get the right guy and it all works, right? I mean, I absolutely believe it will happen. There's still so many players there. Raylon Mullins, the, the shot makers from Greenfield, Indiana, you know, Kyle Guy on the Virginia national championship teams from Indianapolis, John L. Davis from the Florida Atlantic Final Four team is from Gary. The. All the Purdue guys are from Indiana. If, if Indiana gets some of those guys with the right coach, if you're recruiting right, and then you're coaching them, right, you're there. There's players in that state. There still are, there always will be. And they want to win. They want to be good.
- [23:25]
C
I mean, we have. I remember, I think it was a. Mike Davis left that job. It was a column that you wrote that was just, let's run through all the guys from Indiana that if they played for Indiana, Indiana would be the number one team in America. Like you could do that for the last 20 years. And they used to get them. That was the thing about it. Even if half of them go to Purdue, like this is a place that still produces players. And if you get the money right, These guys, you said it, they want to state like that's, that's where they Want to be sure.
- [23:52]
A
And that's like Braylon mullins going to UConn. Who can blame a guy for going to UConn right now? But if Indiana were on top of its stuff, I would have to think he would have stayed at and gone to school at iu.
- [24:03]
C
No, absolutely. Now, Arizona, right fast. They, they're going to grind it out right like this. They're the team that's decided we're going to play this style of basketball. I think it was Tommy Lloyd that made the interesting point that in this day and age, the game now is less about trying to shoot a bunch of threes than getting good twos because the good teams are going to be physically superior to their competition. And that's. That's. That's the game.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah, no, I mean, that's. That's it. They have just said, you know what we are, we're going to play to our strength. And our strength is we're huge and we're physical and we're going to get good shots, we're going to get better shots than you are, and then we're going to defend your good shots. And that's, you know, I'm looking here. They, they are number two nationally in two point field goal percentage defense because they're huge and relentless inside. And then they get good shots on offense and they make them and they pound it in. They've co a Pete is a 68, 235 guy who, you know, unfortunately for him, I think he's going to get drafted, you know, top 10, top 15, and he's going to go to the NBA and they're just going to say, spend the next year just shooting threes so that you can learn how to be a wing, because that's what you're, you're two inches too short to be a big man in our league. But in college, oh, my gosh, he is a power inside. Mo Crevis, the seven footer, is a power inside. And then Braden buries. It's funny to me, the, the guard from California who's their pro, their most talented player, and he's a top 10 pick, I would say. He has like the face of a child actor. He looks, you know, this nice little endearing, you know, maybe potentially soft guy. And then you watch him play, it's like, oh, no, no, no. Don't let looks deceive you. That guy can. Is a killer. I mean, he makes tough shots. He'll play physical, and I think he'll be maybe the key to their, to their Final Four here because somebody's got to make some tough shots and he's capable of it.
- [25:56]
C
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C
Mmm.
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B
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- [31:09]
C
All right, we are back with pat40si.com talking some college basketball and Arizona's in the Final Four. Tommy Lloyd is their head coach and all the clips I see of the questions he's being asked are about the North Carolina job. A job that he will not come out and say that he does not want just throwing this out there. He is not, hey, you know, it's just, hey, because, you know, I got a good team here.
- [31:31]
A
Da, da, da.
- [31:32]
C
Huh? Can we talk about something else, please?
- [31:36]
A
Yeah, I was in San Jose last week when he was asked about it. And you know, look, those of us who have been around a long time, we're finally attuned to the coach speak at the. In these situations, and there's one of two ways you can go. You just stomp it out and say, I have no interest. Or you mouth a bunch of platitudes and say how focused you are on right here and right now and done, you know, and. But you avoid saying I have no interest. And that means, guess what, there's maybe some interest, or at the very least, there's interest in playing the leverage game and staying at Arizona.
- [32:09]
C
Do these guys still have to lie anymore? And I asked that question because you were, you were no longer asking players to come because you were going to guide them through life, paying them. Now, like, I know you can't just flat out say, hey, man, I'm gonna talk about that other job as soon as I can, but it feels like the paradigm hasn't adjusted or, or that rhetoric hasn't adjusted to the reality that everybody's playing on a one year contract now. Like, I, I don't think you have to put yourself through, like, we'll talk about another guy in a second and Will Wade. But I'm like, I don't think you have to play this game anymore.
- [32:40]
A
No, that's a good point. You, you really probably don't. It's certainly to the extent that it gets played. You know, I think that was purely like, I don't want my fan base melting down right now in the sweet 16. Just get me out of here.
- [32:53]
C
Yes.
- [32:54]
A
Get me off of this podium as fast as you can, you know, but, but you're right in terms of like the actual brass tacks of it, you know, there's less of that, oh, I've got to keep my recruiting class together, or any of that sort of thing. That's almost immaterial now.
- [33:09]
C
Yeah. I think, though, this also touches on something that I'm curious your thoughts about this because I feel like cyclically with any big job in college football or basketball, something comes up and a program is in down times or something like that. And the argument is made in response that, you know, this isn't the old days. You, you know, USC is never going to be what USC used to be right then they hired Pete Carroll, and what do you know? Alabama's never going to be what it was. And then you hire Nick Saban, and then it goes. It feels like right now is North Carolina's time. And we can go back through the last however many years. There hasn't been an. I mean, the program hasn't produced an all star in nearly 30 years. Vince Carter is the last All Star that they had produced, but they've also been wildly successful in that time. And I am of the belief that just because the money game is what it is and all these things have changed, that's still North Carolina, and that's still a job that most coaches would love to have. And I feel like the fact that Tommy Lloyd is over there tap dancing when he has one of those jobs that most coaches would love to have is an indicator that this is still
- [34:19]
A
North Carolina without question. I think there is still a large number of great coaches who look at this and say, that's the best job you can have in college basketball. It's another thing, you know, like Indiana, like we were just talking about. Well, you get the right guy. North Carolina is so much closer to always being that team even than Indiana, you know, that program where just line them up and it's going to work, you know, get. Get a coach who's a good coach, and you're going to get good players, great players, as you said. I don't care whether you're an NBA All Star, Tyler Hansbrough, who cares whether it's an NBA All Star, Joel Berry, et cetera. I mean, you know, they. They get great players who do great things at North Carolina. That can certainly still be the case and will be the case, I think. I, you know, if this thing plays out the way it looks like it might, they're going to have a great coach and they're going to win national title again sometime in the next five to ten years.
- [35:13]
C
Yeah, but they. The concern, though, is obviously they seem to have a chaotic infrastructure situation and a resource drain named Belichick. Like, I think the part of the Belichick hire that we didn't really do the math on is there's only so much money and, and they ponied up a lot of money to do the things that he wanted to do for that football program, and it ain't working. And I think the biggest part of why that's making people mad and people. These, These. These basketball programs is interesting. Football pays so much of everything else, but the tail will never wag the dog in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And the. And the dog is basketball. The. The. The dog is basketball. And they've got to figure it out, but it doesn't. There was a level of alignment that they used to seem to have up top for a very long time that does not seem to be there now.
- [36:05]
A
No, I mean, that's a great point. That there's, you know, seemingly a battle for the soul of Carolina athletics going on. On a number of fronts. And one of them. Yes. Is who's in charge? Who's. Who do the money people want to be in charge? What do we want to be? And it feels like, you know, just. And the group think that happens in college sports amazes me. But, like, Carolina seemed to, like, listen to the outside people saying, well, football is all that matters. Football is all that matters. We got to go take a home run swing. Let's go get Bill Belichick. Wait a minute. Does this make any sense? And then we're going to pay him a gazillion dollars in this gazillion dollar support staff and everything else, and then it flops as badly as it did in year one. I mean, it's one of those things where I think, especially if you go get the right basketball coach here in a couple of weeks or whatever much time it may take, you come back and say, let's get back to who we are. Let's give Bill one more year. And after that, we are diverting funds back to where the dog is, not where the tail is. Yeah.
- [37:09]
C
Because, hey, look, that's one thing people don't get. Also, boosters make decisions by doing that. When a booster decides that they're tired of a coach, we saw this happen. Charlie Strong can speak to it from his time at Texas. Konzo Martin can speak to it from his time at Tennessee. All of a sudden, wait a minute. What do you mean I can't use the plane to go recruit? What are you talking about? Like, little things start getting dialed back when it's like, yeah, we're going to get you out of here. This. Like, we may not be able to afford to buy out right now, but we don't have to put up with this because I feel like. And I. I don't know your spin on this. I don't think they made a bad hire with Hubert. I think it turned out to be a different job than Hubert thought he was taking. But, I mean, he was clearly being groomed for that job. They went to a final Four, and they had some good teams. Like, it's not this Is I. I didn't think they fired him because they wanted to. I didn't think that they had to fire him, though. Morale had definitely fallen among the fans and everything else, but they fumbled the fire. And the one part that would worry me if I was somebody that was taking that job is any place where they fumble the fire that bad.
- [38:13]
A
Sure. And that tells you, yeah, there's too many cooks, too many disagreeing cooks in the kitchen. Right.
- [38:18]
C
And.
- [38:19]
A
And it does seem weird, like, nobody. I didn't think there was much smoke about Hubert getting fired at all until they blow the game against vcu. And then all of a sudden, there seemed to be some emotional decisions being made. Like you're hearing, oh, the. The money's no longer there. Well, what did it take, like eight hours for the money? Get rid of him. Get rid of it. We just blew this game. I was like, holy moly. Whoa, whoa, whoa, now. Yeah, look, I thought he was a perfectly fine hire. He had some incredibly high moments there. Obviously, the two flag plants against Duke, but the next year, they're number one seed, they win the acc. I mean, it's not like Hubert Davis was Matt Doherty. Right. And even Matt Doherty's first year wasn't terrible, which is another reason why that job is so good. But, you know, I look at that and think that, yes, that there was a lot of emotional reactions to. To Hubert Davis, but I. I would not say, gosh, Hubert, you did a terrible job by any stretch.
- [39:15]
C
No, no, I. It's. It's. Well, it seems very clear. The name that we're hearing the most is Billy Donovan around that job. And it looks like enough chaos in Chicago that it looks like Billy Donovan will be available. And I don't think anybody else would hire Billy Donovan to coach their NBA team at this point. And I think that he was a replacement level NBA coach. I don't mean he wasn't bad. He wasn't good. But if he still wants to coach and the North Carolina is. Is there, and if they want him, I reckon he's there on the first thing. Smoking. My question is, a guy that hasn't coached in College in 11 years, what is the adjustment, though? I guess if college is more like pro, he's done that.
- [39:57]
A
Yeah, he'll figure it out. I don't think. I don't think it would be a problem for him. And I think he would be a great hire, as would Tommy Lloyd, I think, too. But Billy, you know, I heard back when he was at Florida and when he was in the NBA, the only other job that would interest him, that would kind of light the candle in his eyes would be Carolina because he realized what kind of job that is. He is a great coach. I think he would walk in and immediately be at the very top as an X and O coach. And yeah, you can, you can figure out the rest of it. As you said, if it's more of an NBA, you know, our professional style, roster building, everything. Well, that's what's he been doing for the last 12 years he's been doing that. So I don't think this is the kind of thing where he would be blindsided, overmatched, getting the wrong guys thinking like Bill Belichick, I can get Mac players and turn them into ACC players. You know, I think he would have a very good grasp on what to do. The learning curve would be short and he then Carolina would do extremely well with Billy Donovan.
- [41:01]
C
And I think that important if I were in charge of that search, college basketball, winning is not enough. Different places want to win different ways, right? So we all remember the infamous Herb Sendak era at North Carolina State. And no matter how good a coach you thought Herb was, they didn't like the way that he played basketball. It was only happy when they won. But running that slow down Princeton stuff that he was doing, it made him miserable when they didn't. And that's why ultimately he left. They didn't fire him, but they didn't. Nobody was that sad when he got out of there. I was there for his last SEC tournament. Nobody was sad when he left, but they didn't like the way he played that kind of grinded out ball that Lloyd is playing. They're not going to like that there. I think Donovan with a more guard centered off, you know, type of play that he was known for when he was coaching in college. That's the one for them. And it's enough to feed their egos and make them feel like, yep, we're still the program that can get you Billy Donovan. Which again, very important jobs like these, no doubt.
- [42:03]
A
I mean, how many schools have tried to hire Billy Donovan in the last 20 years? I mean like Kentucky tried multiple times, couldn't get him. I mean, big time schools wanted Billy Donovan for a good reason. He went to four Final Fours, he won two national championships in a row. He, he knows how to recruit, he knows how to put together a team, he knows how to coach a team. I see no weaknesses there other than, yeah, okay, I've got, I've gone, I've been gone for 12 years. He'll figure it out. He'll be fine.
- [42:30]
C
There's one thing though that has to be resolved that only guys like you and I would probably remember, which is way back in 1997 or 1998, when Mike Miller was a recruit, Roy Williams and Billy Donovan got into a real nasty thing about who said what and who did what. And I imagine that Billy Donovan has let that go. I promise you that. Roy Williams has not. Yeah, that's how he operates.
- [43:05]
A
Yeah. I mean, look, this is going to be an adjustment for Roy no matter what. First of all, there's not some new dean guy, you know, to take over. So going outside. But then if you go outside to Billy. Yeah. Those two guys can have a nice closed door chat about Brett Berup and a few other things and then move on and then get behind him. Roy.
- [43:25]
C
Yeah, but it's gonna, it's going to have to happen and I wish I could be there for it.
- [43:29]
A
Oh, really? It was, it was bitter between those two for a while.
- [43:35]
C
I miss my world days of paying attention to this stuff every day, all the time. Because every now and then something comes up and I'm like, that's right, that thing did happen. So staying in that area, you. Well, yeah, I'll go with Will Wade. Before we get back over there to Shire, we talked a little bit about the Will Wade situation here. It is one of the more amazing things to happen in college sports where apparently everybody knew Will Wade was just itching to get back to lsu. The block had finally calmed down enough. I compared it to Alex Cora in baseball where the Red Sox had to fire him because of the Astros cheating thing. And then they waited till nobody cared anymore and they brought him back. And that's basically what happened here with Will Wade. Except speaking of people who didn't have to lie. He just lied and lied and lied and lied and lied. And now he's going to go to LSU where he never got out of the round of 32.
- [44:33]
A
That's it. You know, like, honest to God, like LSU has just willfully said, we have no shame and we'll go ahead and be a laughingstock because we've got to have a guy who can take us to the second round of the tournament. Really, that we're talking about here, like, that's like. People seem to confuse him with John Wooden and Mike Krzyzewski and Roy Williams quite often in terms of like these. The greatest coach ever. No, man, he's a good coach who's a renegade red ass, which is what we kind of like at lsu, put him together with Lane Kiffin and we bring in Rick Stansberry on his staff, among other people. It's like shame has left the building in Baton Rouge. It's a whole new deal.
- [45:21]
C
They brought back Johnny Jones too.
- [45:23]
A
Brought back Johnny Jones, yeah.
- [45:25]
C
This is lsu. The LSU basketball program is so interesting because no program in history has done less with the, the best top line of players in the history of programs. Nobody's beaten lsu. Robert E. Lee Pettit, Pistol Pete, Shaq, Chris Jackson.
- [45:45]
A
Yeah.
- [45:45]
C
Like it didn't win a damn thing with any of those guys. But if you gave Dale Brown, John hot Plate Williams and a random smattering of dudes, somehow we will make the Final Four. You give John Brady, quite possibly the worst coach ever to make a Final Four, but you gave him Glenn Davis and Tyrus Thomas and Garrett Temple and beat Coach K all the way to a Final Four. Like they. Nothing about that program historically has made a great deal of sense, but they're always entertaining. Right. It's always like something to watch and then you'll, you know, what was the Bob Knight line? I didn't, you know, I thought we were in trouble till I looked over there and saw Dale Brown and I knew everything was going to be okay.
- [46:29]
A
That's right. That's right. 80. I think it was 87 tournament. He said that? Yeah. I mean, no, it is like that place is just a freaking hot mess. And especially with basketball, like football's too important to just kind of song in a prayer at basketball. They're like, hey, we'll just take the mess and see how it works out. Like you said, they have had, if you put together, if you had an all time starting five of LSU guys versus other teams, it's right there.
- [46:57]
C
Yeah.
- [46:57]
A
I mean, you named them off. I mean all time great players who never went anywhere.
- [47:03]
C
They might have the four best players in the history of the Southeastern Conference.
- [47:08]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:09]
C
The, like the literal four.
- [47:11]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, people forget how good Chris Jackson was. Chris Jackson played with Shaquille o' Neal on the same team. And I saw him go into Rupp arena and lose to a team that had seven scholarship players. Was playing Richie Farmer, like, what on earth?
- [47:27]
C
Not possible with Stanley Roberts, who we joke about for being fat, but was a really good basketball player.
- [47:34]
A
Absolutely. I mean, yeah. God love Dale. Dale was entertaining and he's still with us.
- [47:39]
C
Yes.
- [47:40]
A
But he, he, he, he underachieved a
- [47:43]
C
few times and a good man, right?
- [47:45]
A
Yeah.
- [47:46]
C
He's on the guy V. Lewis list of good men who could get good players to coach them badly.
- [47:54]
A
Right.
- [47:54]
C
Like Gavi. Gavi got off in history that the NC State story was so inspiring to people to ignore the fact. Blew it. Flat out blew it.
- [48:05]
A
The loss to NC State championship game is absolute malpractice. I mean, that's. I did something on the greatest buzzer beaters this week. And you go back and watch and to watch the last minute of that game, there was no shot clock and they've got all those athletes out there and they're just standing there in a zone like this for a minute, letting Sydney Lowe and Derek Wittenberg pass the ball back and forth. Terry Gannon, like. And that's what basically the whole game was. It was 52 to 52. They. It should have been 80 to 65.
- [48:36]
C
Right. With Akiba Lajuot and Clyde Drexler and Larry Michelle. Okay. Anyway, we get. We could move NC State, by the way, shout out to them, recover quickly. Made what seems to be a pretty good hire. Did not embarrass themselves, which is always on the board over there. So like, way to go. Now I want to wrap this up with Duke because I, counterintuitive though this may seem, it's a bit of a defense. I don't know if defense is the right word, but I am surprised at the level of criticism the Shire has received coming off of this. Now. There have been some embarrassing losses in the ways the games have been lost, but to me it's like did like, are people new here? This is kind of how it goes for all coaches, even if it's not at the beginning. Right. There's stretches. Like I remind people, Dean Smith did not make a final four from 82 through 91. Roy Williams did not make a final four after 93 and before 2002. Like, these things happen. Shire is a little ahead of the game. I would argue for where he is to start this off, while also acknowledging last couple years have ended in what they call an ignominious sort of fashion.
- [49:46]
A
Ignominious is the word for it. It really is that. I mean, the problem. Yeah. Like you're. You got number one seed last year. Getting to the Final Four is a number one seed. That's fine. But the way you blew the game against Houston with Cooper, flag ugly. And then the way you blew this game with Cam Boozer, very ugly. And just the. The way things kind of unraveled and it even kind of gradually at the time. And then really, if you want to go back the year before when you lose to NC State and that fluke miracle team. Ugly. So three straight really ugly elimination games. But to be number one seed, you know, a couple years in a row is, is great. And win 70 games is impressive. Like, nobody should be saying John Schier can't do it. They should just be saying John Shire has a major problem at key points of the NCAA tournament. He'll get past it. Right. He's 38 years old. As you pointed out, there's been plenty of coaches that have had very bad tournament losses. It's nice when you, when your bad losses happen at the Final Four and lead eight stage as opposed to the first round, that's a good thing. So he'll. I think he will move on from it. He'll get past, he'll get better handling these things and eventually he's going to win a title. But you know, the way they have lost has been ghastly.
- [51:09]
C
Yeah, I think ghastly is the way to put it. And look, I've enjoyed how it's gone, personally, it's worked out very well for me. But no, no, no, no, no. This is something would drastically have to change for me to not look at Shire and be like, no, this is going. Look, I don't think that's a job that's guaranteed to be great forever. They don't like, they have a brand that's been built over time, but they don't have like the super built in advantages either.
- [51:36]
A
No, I agree. I mean, look, in, in our lifetime, what Krzyzewski built, it looks like immovable. But over time, as you said, things can change. And that is not. That's one of those places where I think it's a little less kind of secure, like in terms like in perpetuity. Is Duke going to be good for 50 years? Probably, but not certainly, I don't think. And so I like, you know. No, if anybody's sitting out there saying Shire's got to go, be careful because who the heck's coming in Next? Who's going 70 games in two years.
- [52:12]
C
70 games in two years. There's like 70 and 7, I think is what it's been in the last two years was like two or three ACC losses. Like guys, come on.
- [52:23]
A
Totally dominated that league. Yeah. And you know, still a good league. I'm sorry.
- [52:28]
C
Yeah, man, that is Pat 40. Check them out. SI.com covering college sports, my man. I appreciate you.
- [52:35]
A
Thanks, bro.
- [52:36]
C
All right, ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the right time. We do this four times a week. Brian Brumley handles everything behind the scenes. Thank you sir. Hit the voicemail line. 323-59-67767. Remember, follow the right time. Subscribe like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater and we'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.
- [53:07]
A
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