Shannon Penn on The Rise and Fall of the Cowboys' Dynasty: 30 Years Later | 02.03

Summary

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The Right Time with Bomani Jones

Guest: Shannon Penn

Episode: "The Rise and Fall of the Cowboys' Dynasty: 30 Years Later"

Date: February 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

Bomani Jones is joined by broadcaster and longtime friend Shannon Penn to look back on the Dallas Cowboys' iconic 1990s dynasty, which captured three Super Bowl wins in four years. The conversation delves into the Cowboys’ meteoric rise, the impact of key players and management, the seismic cultural influence the team had on and off the field, and the abrupt descent into decades of unfulfilled promise. Personal anecdotes and humor color their discussion, providing rich context for what made the Cowboys unique—and why their legacy endures, even as the franchise's championship drought hits three decades.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Context – Growing Up With the Cowboys

• Generational Perspective: Bomani and Shannon reflect on how, as kids in the '80s, the Cowboys felt like old news—a distant powerhouse akin to “Chubby Checker or Cab Calloway” for Bomani.

  “They might as well have been like Chubby Checker…all that shit is the same.” – Bomani [03:31]

• Giants and Packers: For Shannon (a Giants fan in New York), the Cowboys didn’t register as rivals; the Giants, Eagles, and Washington teams were bigger presences.

2. Cowboys Before the Dynasty – From Irrelevance to Rebirth

• The Down Years: Bomani highlights how the Cowboys went from consistent winners under Tom Landry to bottoming out in the late '80s.

  “The first Cowboys team I really remember…was like the ’88 Cowboys. Their quarterback was Steve Pelleur…They was sorry.” – Bomani [04:37]

• Transition to Greatness: Shannon admits he had to look up who Steve Pelleur even was, exemplifying the depth of the Cowboys' decline.

3. Tom Landry’s Legacy Versus the 1990s Perception

• Relentless Consistency: Bomani lays out the Landry years—decades of winning—contrasting it with the mediocrity they witnessed in youth.

  “They weren’t just kind of good all these years…they were boss year after year after year.” – Bomani [07:15]

4. The Herschel Walker Trade & Jimmy Johnson’s Vision

• The Trade’s Genius: They break down how the Herschel Walker trade with the Vikings was unprecedented—player releases triggering more draft picks.

  “Jimmy’s plan the whole way was to cut them all. There was never any plan…Nobody had ever thought of a trade in the way that they had.” – Bomani [10:17]

• Who Gets Credit—Jimmy or Jerry? Shannon probes whether the infamous trade structure was pure football acumen (Jimmy) or a shrewd business move (Jerry).

  “...the idea to put that language in that trade is a shrewd business move. Now, it’s probably Jimmy’s idea, but I wouldn’t put it past Jerry…” – Shannon [10:48]

5. Nailing the Picks – The Core Is Built

• Talent Wins: Bomani and Shannon list out draftees who shaped the dynasty, including Emmitt Smith, Russell Maryland, Kevin Smith, and Darren Woodson.

  “Not just accumulating those draft picks…It’s hitting on those guys too…like you said, building the offensive line…” – Shannon [13:36]

6. The Cowboys’ Meteoric Rise & Cultural Impact

• From Bottom to Top: Bomani walks through the rapid progress: 1–15 to seven wins, to playoff wins, to dethroning perennial NFC giants.
• Rivalry with 49ers: The 1992 NFC Championship Game is described as a true “changing of the guard” moment.

  “The idea that you had the old dynasty and the new dynasty—and the old dynasty never really slipped…they were the gold standard.” – Bomani [17:21]

• Growing Giants Fan Resentment: Shannon shares that the Cowboys’ rise sparked his earliest antipathy—“How dare you?”—toward Dallas. [18:03]

7. Individual Superstar Highlights

• Jerry Rice vs. Michael Irvin:
  • Jerry is discussed as not just the best receiver, but perhaps the second-best player ever (“ungaurdable offensive player in history” – Shannon [19:46]).
• Jimmy Johnson’s Relentless Simplicity:
  • The Cowboys’ approach: execute simple, physical football better than anyone, relying on superior talent.

    “If all we do is execute what we do with our better players, you will not be able to beat us.” – Bomani [21:01]

• “Sum Greater Than the Parts”: Bomani notes the defense lacked true Hall of Fame superstars—emphasizing a collective identity. [24:22]
• Michael Irvin’s Outsized Influence:
  • “Culturally the most significant football player…He brought that confidence and that standard to the Cowboys.” – Shannon [32:21]
  • Irvin’s background at Miami, his leadership, and how his personality made the Cowboys special.

8. Emmitt Smith—Underrated Greatness & Iconic Moments

• Durable & Overlooked:
  • Emmitt’s steadiness is compared unfavorably in childhood to the more photogenic Barry Sanders, but Bomani pushes back.

    “You don’t become the all time leading rusher…without being a beast. You don’t win a rushing title in 14 games without being an actual factual beast.” – Bomani [35:48]

• The One-Armed Game (Giants 1993):
  • Both recall in vivid, emotional detail Emmitt’s heroics with a separated shoulder, sealing the division and Super Bowl.

  “How you let this dude with one arm beat you?” – Shannon [37:49]

9. The End – Switzer Era, Off-Field Chaos, and Sudden Decline

• The White House and Aftermath:
  • The team’s infamy, partying, and scandal reframe them as “larger than life,” with a renegade culture echoing Miami days.
  • Stories of Michael Irvin showing up to court in a full mink, and the outrageousness of late-dynasty Cowboys culture.

    “That was what the Cowboys were at this point…Barry Switzer gets caught at the airport with the tool in the bag…This is who they were…” – Bomani [51:12]

• Key Injuries & Coaches:
  • The dynasty’s close arrives with Irvin’s career-ending injury, Aikman’s retirement, Dion’s decline from turf toe, and coaching changes (Switzer, then Chan Gailey).

10. The Jerry Jones Factor: Brand Supremacy Over Football

• The PT Barnum of Football:
  • Jerry’s relentless self-promotion—from modeling new unis in pads, to landmark endorsement deals—sets the franchise apart.

    “The moment I will never forget…was Jerry Jones in a full uniform…the model for it.” – Bomani [54:57]

• A Distinct Approach:
  • Jerry is set against Al Davis as a promoter and businessman, not a football genius:

    “I believe Al Davis was a genius. I do not believe that Jerry Jones was…I felt like [Jerry] is a great promoter.” – Bomani [57:31]

• Lingering Aftereffects:
  • Jerry remains the connective tissue from the glory days through the ongoing title drought—"the only common thread from the dynasty to now, but also the only thread from the dynasty ending to now.” [57:53]

11. Cowboys Fandom—Legacy and Laughter

• Devoted and Insufferable:
  • Shannon ruefully compares Cowboys fans to Knicks fans. Social media still erupts when the Cowboys fall, even 30 years later.

  • “If I can’t watch your Super Bowl or your championship highlights in HD, then y’all in the same boat.” – Shannon [62:31]

• Bomani’s Empathy:
  • “They’ve been loyal and…dedicated to this sad sack outfit. They don’t get no payoff from it. They keep coming back. They are Knicks fans now.” [62:08]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tom Landry’s End:

  “It was the Bill Belichick ending, basically. It’s kind of Belichick just without the Super Bowls.” – Bomani [07:56]

• The Emmitt Smith “One-Armed Game”:

  “First of all, you have to be that dude for them to be like—I know you got one arm and we still gonna give you the ball…” – Bomani [38:14]

• Michael Irvin’s Cultural Impact:

  “This whole Cowboys thing don’t hit without Michael Irvin…He was the spirit of it.” – Shannon [32:21]
  “He handed Jimmy Johnson a list of the dudes that needed to go.” – Bomani [32:59]

• On Cowboys’ 90s Off-Field Antics:

  “They weren’t cheating. But it felt like they was cheating.” – Bomani [47:05]
  “The White House…you wouldn’t fathom that happening in Green Bay, Wisconsin…But for Dallas, hey, that was accepted.” – Shannon [47:24]

• On Jerry Jones:

  “He was a football player. He played on a national championship football team. He saw himself as a football man. His inspiration was Al Davis.” – Bomani [55:13]

• On Cowboys’ Drought:

  “He’ll always be the person that we associate what goes wrong with.” – Bomani, about Jerry Jones [58:15]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:31] – Cowboys as a relic of the past in the ‘80s
• [07:15] – The magnitude of Tom Landry’s regular-season success
• [10:17] – The Herschel Walker trade genius
• [13:36] – Nailing the picks: building the dynasty’s core
• [18:03] – Seeds of Cowboys-Giants rivalry for Shannon
• [21:01] – Jimmy Johnson’s keep-it-simple dominance
• [24:22] – The “sum greater than the parts” defense
• [32:21] – Michael Irvin’s Miami attitude and influence
• [35:48] – Emmitt Smith’s underrated dominance
• [37:49] – Emmitt’s “one-armed” performance against the Giants
• [47:24] – The Cowboys’ renegade culture vs. the NFL norm
• [54:57] – Jerry Jones the promoter: in full pads, modeling new jerseys
• [58:15] – Jerry’s role as enduring symbol of both glory and drought
• [62:31] – Shannon on legacies: “If it ain’t in 4K, then we ain’t the same”

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Tone & Style

The episode is characteristically warm, funny, anecdotal, and irreverent. Bomani peppers the conversation with thoughtful analysis and cultural references, while Shannon brings relatable fan angst and perspective. The duo’s chemistry is palpable, blending detailed football history with offbeat personal insight and frequent, affectionate ribbing.

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Recommended for Listeners Who

• Grew up with or have nostalgia for ‘90s NFL and the Cowboys’ dynasty
• Want an in-depth, personal, and cultural history of Dallas’s rise and fall
• Enjoy smart, conversational sports commentary with humor and historical context

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Transcript

[Bomani Jones]

Foreign. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Right Time A Wave original. My name is Bomani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is Time Machine Tuesday. This week we are going to talk about 30 years ago. Not exactly this week, but 30 years ago, in this neighborhood of time, the Dallas Cowboys won their third super bowl in four years. And little did we know, not only would they not win a Super bowl since not only would they not go to a Super bowl after this, they ain't been to a conference championship game since this happened. So, you know, who knew? We will look back on that and join me now. You can check him out on Freddie and Harry on ESPN Radio. And you know OG right Time member Shannon Penn. What's going on, brother?

[Shannon Penn]

What's good? My man.

[Bomani Jones]

Hey, man. You know, it's another day in the life. I was, I was actually thinking about this with the Cowboys kind of in the context of us, right? So for people who don't know, Shannon and I work together in North Carolina on the radio. We were doing Saturday, Sunday morning shifts, you know what I'm saying? My first show ever, Sports Saturday was with Shannon. We were talking up. I did a shout out to what's his name, Demon Wilson, on Monday. And I was like, we used to have a big dummy of the week on radio back in the day, which looking back was a little bit harsh.

[Shannon Penn]

But you know what I mean? But it hit, though. It hit, though.

[Bomani Jones]

It hit every week. We had to.

[Shannon Penn]

We had the Baltimore house music, you big dummy.

[Bomani Jones]

We had people wait. We had people waiting on it.

[Shannon Penn]

You know what I'm saying?

[Bomani Jones]

Like, like, like we had those things. But we started doing that show in January of 2008, and that is the, the year that the Giants beat the Patriots, right? And think about this, Shannon. That was 12 years after the Cowboys had last won a championship, right? Neither of us grew up as Cowboys fans, right? My dad is like an old school, like old black man, Cowboys fan, right? Like crying, you know, not crying because he don't do that, but over the Ice bowl type of situation, right? You, as we said, were a Giants fan. That was your bang. But the Cowboys in that run, I'm curious if you felt the way that I felt before they got good, which was they felt to me in some ways like the packers did. And this won't be the same for you because you were a Yankees fan, but like the Yankees did to me, where y' all say they used to be good, right? Like, like, like, like, like, it felt like forever ago. They were good, except they had only been bad for, like, three years. But it was a formative three years for me, right? We watch it, like, the games on every week, they go 1 in 15. I was like, what. What are we talking about here?

[Shannon Penn]

Right?

[Bomani Jones]

And.

[Shannon Penn]

And that, like. And that was the thing for me, like, the rise of the Cowboys. Like, I didn't. I didn't grow up with that. Like, in the 80s, as far as the Cowboys being relevant, living in New York, like, for me, it was obviously a giant still coming off of the 86 Super Bowl. And then you had the Niners being as dominant as that. They were like, for me, the Cowboys and the Bears. And the Bears as well, and what they were. And Walter Payton, the Super bowl shuffle, the whole nine. So for me, growing up, the Cowboys really, in the 80s, for me in New York, they were really weren't that relevant for me.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah, they might as well have been like Chubby Checker, you know what I'm saying? Cab Calloway. Cause I'm as a small child, all that shit is the same.

[Shannon Penn]

Like, for me, a lot of you, not that cut you off in the same vein. For me, that was the packers as well. Like, the packers. For me, like, that was. I'm only looking at old, grainy footage of. Of the packers, you know, Super Bowl 1 and 2, Vince Lombardi, like, for me, it was like, oh, who is this team?

[Bomani Jones]

Like, like, the packers for me were like, by definition. Sorry. Now, keep in mind, with the packers, though, they went to the playoffs twice in 20 years. Like, after Lombardi, they had that long run. Like, you remember that Don Makowski year, It was like, oh, the pack is back. But the Cowboys, just because of the timing of our youth, may as well have been the same. But the truth is, they only had, like, two or like, the Tom Landry years. It was like the last three, two or three that weren't good. And then it moved into that new era. But, like, the first Cowboys team I ever really remember watching or knowing anything about was, like, the 88 cowboys when they. They quarterback was Steve Paloa. I don't know if people. Even every other Cowboys quarterback, basically, since they got good in the mid-60s, has been some kind of famous, right? Craig Morton, Don Meredith, Roger Staubach, Danny White. Like, you don't have to know about Danny White if you're young, but if you talk to people at the time, like, you know, Danny White was something. Troy Aikman, you know, through that run and then in between was Steve Pulu. But he was my first Cowboys quarterback. He was the one that I knew of, man. They was sorry.

[Shannon Penn]

Look, I'll take, look, I'll take your word for it. Cause look, look, prior, prior to Ryan hitting me up for this, for this episode, I had to look up who dude was. I was like, oh, wait a minute, there was a quarterback.

[Bomani Jones]

All I think I know is that he wore number 11. I don't know what he looked like. He could be left handed for all I know. I don't know anything, right. I just know that team was sorry. And then that year that Troy Aikman pulled up, they was extra sorry.

[Shannon Penn]

Right, right. And two like. And obviously a lot of this is documented in the, in the Cowboys, doc. But like they were bad, bad. And then obviously now looking at revisions history and you talk about Aikman, that's what wanted to go. Like, yeah, he was the number one pick. But it wasn't all glowing for Aikman to start. Like not only was he bad, the team was bad. There wasn't a lot of confidence in him as well for a guy come, you know, coming off being the number one overall pick.

[Bomani Jones]

First of all, if I'm not mistaken, the one game they won that year was a game he did not play. I think they were 0 and 11 with him as starting quarterback. Jimmy was never really sold on him. You know, Jimmy went and got his guy, right? He went, he went and got Steve Walsh. Right. The same year they basically spent two number one overall picks on quarterbacks at the same time. They took Amman in the draft, draft and they took Steve Walsh in the supplemental draft with a first round pick that wound up being worthy of the number one pick. But I'mma run this by you because I don't think that this is something that people quite understand if you are of a certain of like of our age, which is how good the Cowboys were when Tom Landry was the coach. Okay, now keep in mind that they only won two Super Bowls. He went to five, they only won two. And that's the way we measure people. Right. Okay, I'm going to give you win totals. Keep in mind these are 14. 14 game seasons through 1976. Or is it 19? 7. Oh, through 1977. Okay, I'm going to start in 1966. 10. 3 and 1, 9 and 5, 12 and 2 11. 2 and 1, 10 and 411 and 3, 10 and 4, 10 and 4, 8 and 6, 10 and 4, 11 and 3, 12 and 212 and 4, 11 and 5, 12 and 412 and 4, 6 and 3, 12 and 4, 9 and 7, 10 and 6. That's 20 years, basically, through 1985. That's what they were. They weren't just kind of good all these years, right? They were a boss year after year after year. Even Danny White and those had three straight years of going to the NFC Championship game, they didn't win them. But in the early 80s, if Dwight Clark doesn't make that catch, they're going to the super bowl like they were all the way through the 70s and through much of the 80s, really, really good. And then as happens like this, what happened to Tom landry, this last three years was 7 and 9, 7 and 8 and 13 and 3, 7 and 9 and 7 and 8 are not really that terrible. 13 and 3 and then the team gets sold. You know, you wind up getting fired. But it was the Bill Belichick ending, basically. It's kind of Belichick just without the Super Bowls. I mean, I understand that that's a big gap, but just to give you an idea of what the Cowboys meant, and we saw none of it. We just pulled up to mediocrity.

[Shannon Penn]

Look, I'll take your word for it.

[Bomani Jones]

Like.

[Shannon Penn]

Like, yeah, I knew of Tony Dorsett, but obviously too young to remember him as a player. Like, I know, like, I know the 88 drew Pierce. Like, I know all of that, but I don't know it enough, like, to have experienced it when it was happening in real time or even.

[Bomani Jones]

Like, I was very aware of Herschel Walker as an idea. But we didn't get great Herschel Walker out on film.

[Shannon Penn]

No, no. Like, for me, it was Herschel Walker, Georgia Herschel Walker. That, that's the Herschel Walker that, that. That I knew of was. Was college Herschel Walker.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah. See, I guess I understood her, the magnitude of Herschel Walker as like, best player on Dallas Cowboys. And I guess also because of the Atlanta nature of my household, right? Herschel Walker, you know, Herschel Walker had been a starter that was. He's a junior in high school because of the newspaper. Right. You know, that was, that was kind of where it was. But they, they were so bad in that one in 15 season that. Jerry, I don't think we talk enough about how. I guess just reading this book that made a point about when the Spanish invaded South, some of these folks, that because the people had never seen guns before, they couldn't even conceptualize What a gun was like. Imagine you don't know what a gun is. You out here ready to fight with your, with your spears and your arrows and everything else. And then this dude points something at you and the next thing you know, people is dying. Right? Like you have no concept and no idea of what you're up against. Right. You're like, wait a minute, give me a minute here with that Herschel Walker trade. What I don't think that people get is that it's not simply that the Cowboys got a bunch of picks in the draft. Is that the Cowboy in the trade? Is that the Cowboys got a bunch of players in that trade. And there was a provision that said that if the Cowboys released those players, then they would receive certain picks. And the Vikings thinking was, well, they're not going to get rid of all these perfectly good players. Why would you ever do such a thing? Right?

[Shannon Penn]

Right.

[Bomani Jones]

And Jimmy's plan the whole way was to cut them all. There was, there was never any plan like Darren Nelson, Jesse Solomon, all these guys. Never once did he consider keeping them. Nobody had ever thought of a trade in the way that they had thought of a trade. And so they tanked without tanking. Right? Like, because it didn't matter. They didn't have their number one. They didn't have their first round pick. They gave it up in the supplemental draft.

[Shannon Penn]

Okay?

[Bomani Jones]

So they didn't even, they didn't even purpose.

[Shannon Penn]

And are we sure? All right, are we sure that was, that was all Jimmy's idea though? Like, like I'm, I'm not going to cape for Jerry. Not at all. Because Jimmy's the football guy. We sure that was Jimmy's plan? Because we got to give Jerry. Jerry's a true businessman. So if there's any. I agree, like looking at this from a business nature, not necessarily football, like, the idea to put that language in that trade is a shrewd business move. Now it's probably Jimmy's idea, but you got like, I wouldn't put it past Jerry to like a Texas oil, like an oil man. Like, I wouldn't put past him either.

[Bomani Jones]

That's a, that is a fair point. Right. It is entirely possible. But some combination of the two of them made fools of the Vikings.

[Shannon Penn]

Right?

[Bomani Jones]

Right. Like think about this. For the Vikings, they lost the players and they lost the picks. Right? The Cowboys got the players and played them because why not? You're not going to have your pick. You don't have any incentive really. I guess the later round picks you have to think about, but Then at the end of the year, man, they cleaned house and got all of those dudes out of there and it set up a crazy run where not only did they have the picks, they nailed the picks. And so the next year, if I'm not mistaken, Emmett Smith was one of those picks and he had to be yet because he was drafted the next year they go from 1 in 15 and they go to, to 7 and 9. Right. And Emma Smith is, I think he ran for like 900 something yards that year. Like it was. He was a very good college player that you weren't necessarily sure was going to turn into an excellent NFL player. But what we learned in the year after they went 79 and almost made the playoffs, the next year they made the playoffs, they played against the Bears and they won a wild card game against the Bears and then they got smoked by the Detroit Lions with Troy Aikman able to play and Jimmy Johnson playing Steve Burleigh.

[Shannon Penn]

Yeah, he was, See that's my, that's my thing.

[Bomani Jones]

And then after the game was out of hand, put Troy in.

[Shannon Penn]

Like he was trying to look, he was trying to force Troy up out of there.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah, he was trying to find any way possible. He was just like, I just don't know about this guy. But in that time what we also learned though was they had put together an offensive line. EMT Smith was that dude. And the last first round pick I recall of the Troy. No, yes. Of the Tom Landry era was Michael Irving. Yeah, they were, they were on the way, boys.

[Shannon Penn]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, that. And that's the part of it too. Like not just accumulating those draft picks as you said, hitting on those draft picks as well. Like we talk about the number of players that were involved, but it wasn't just the, the, the, the mass. Number. It's hitting on those guys too. Like you couldn't just, you couldn't just go out there and get these numbers. It was, it was making the right selection, like you said, building the offensive line, you know, having the belief in a guy like Emmett who like you said there were still some questions, like it wasn't a no brainer that this guy was going to hit and then, and then in him becoming what he became. So it was absolutely like having a foresight in the player, player personnel that Jimmy had to turn the Cowboys into what they became.

[Bomani Jones]

All right, so let's look at like who some of these players were that the Cowboys got as a result of this trade. Emmett Smith, they got as a result of this Trade. They did some other finagling, helped use some of them picks to get the number one pick in 91 and got Russell, Maryland. So Emmett Smith, the all time leading roster. Russell, Maryland, eight Pro bowl defensive lineman.

[Shannon Penn]

Yeah.

[Bomani Jones]

A weird number one overall pick though. Like you'll never ever again see a number one pick where. Why'd you get him? Eh, we're, we're sure he'll be okay, right? Maybe the most low ceiling number one overall pick there's ever been. Kevin Smith, who's the first round pick with Texas A M defensive back. I think he became a Pro bowler. Darren Woodson, who will be a perennial hall of Fame finalist.

[Shannon Penn]

Finalist. Yeah.

[Bomani Jones]

One of those guys. Every year they gonna just. They just go toy with that bad. Every year.

[Shannon Penn]

Look, shout out to Darren Woodson. We got him on my show tomorrow too. And when I have to send out my email every year it's hall of Fame finalists.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah. Hey, man, look, he seemed like a good dude, you know what I mean? I just don't think he's a Hall of Famer. And they just keep doing this and they keep doing this and they keep doing this. Oh, the Vikings got Jake Reed out of the deal. Good for them.

[Shannon Penn]

There you go.

[Bomani Jones]

There you go.

[Shannon Penn]

HBCU legend. There you go.

[Bomani Jones]

Right. But they made a rise in a way that I don't think I fully grasped how polarizing the Cowboys were as an entity at that point, because again, they had been. Sorry. But also I felt like it was a rise that made the team somewhat endearing. Right. Like it was rapid, but there were still steps, like, you know, to, to like we watched them go a little bit up, a little bit up in that time period. And 1992 became a crazy year to think about. Right. Like the 49ers, they'd been down a couple years. Washington in 91. And for those of you who are unaware, probably the best football team I've ever seen, crazy. Was the 91 Washington team. And there's no explaining to you why, like showing you the list of players isn't going to do it. You kind of just had to be there.

[Shannon Penn]

Right.

[Bomani Jones]

They were unreal.

[Shannon Penn]

And the one game they lost and they hit it hit like that year and they hit like, like Mark Ripon wasn't going to have a season like he did in that year.

[Bomani Jones]

And they just hit. No. And the Cowboys beat him that year. And the Cowboys beat him that year. But you got to 92 and the 49ers now were back. Right?

[Shannon Penn]

Right.

[Bomani Jones]

They had gone through the Joe Montana, Steve Young transition. So in 1990, the Giants beat the 49ers in the NFC championship game, 10 to 9. Joe Montana got broken.

[Shannon Penn]

Half.

[Bomani Jones]

Leonard Marshall hit him so hard in the back. Like, they don't let you do that no more, right?

[Shannon Penn]

Like, that's roughing the passer. Like, that's easy.

[Bomani Jones]

Oh, my God.

[Shannon Penn]

That's roughing the passer. That's easy. Even though it was.

[Bomani Jones]

Even though it was in the course of the play, right? He breaks Joe by Tana in half. The Giants win the super bowl that year. Washington wins the next year. Steve Young, who they've been, who they had on ice for three years, three, four years, just waiting, right? He now gets to be the starter. The 49ers eventually have to trade Montana. Say they trade him at the end of 92. Because Joe's like, I can still play. And they're like, yo, we've moved on. Just so you understand. Even Joe Montana, they could do that, too. Steve young comes in, MVP caliber player, and now it's 92. The 49ers are back. Jerry Rice is as good as he has ever been. They. They play the Cowboys in the 92 NFC championship game. And Jimmy Johnson has said that for that game, they knew that was the super bowl when nobody really tripping on who, whatever was going on over there. Buffalo, I think they played the Dolphins that year. I can't remember what they were like, hey, man, that ain't even really no thing here. The game is here. And, boy, like, I didn't appreciate it fully at the time, but I did, of course, as the years went. And really looking back on it now, the idea that you had the old dynasty and the new dynasty and the old dynasty never really slipped. They had a year where they missed the playoffs, but they went 10 and 6. You know what I mean?

[Shannon Penn]

And it's funny you bring up 92. Cause that was really, like, for me, as a Giant fan, that was really like the first year of my dislike for Cowboy for the Dallas Cowboys. Because, like, although I'm a Giants fan, I like the 49ers as well. How could you not like Jerry Rice? Whenever you're out there in the street, I'm Jerry Rice. If I'm a receiver, I'm Jerry Rice. If I'm a quarterback, I'm Joe Montana or whatever. So, like, the 49ers were the 49ers. And then here comes this team that I hadn't really checked for. Because in the NFC east, for me growing up, Eagles, Redskins, those. Those were the teams that I looked at as more of. Of. Of the. The opponents there for the Giants. And then you had this Cowboys team. It's like, wait a minute, hold on. Where did these guys come from? And. And how dare you? How dare you. The unmitigated goal to go out here and play the 49ers in this NFC championship game.

[Bomani Jones]

How right are you, by the way? Right? Fast. Because you mentioned Jerry Rice, who I think is at worst the second best football player who ever lived. Like, I think you go look at it numerically, there's no. Nobody's ever, like, nobody's ever catching him for any of the stuff that he did. And he did it in the era where they didn't really throw the ball like that. Right. You realize how crazy it is that you can show somebody, like, show somebody the best five minute video of Randy Moss on YouTube and then try to explain he's number two, right?

[Shannon Penn]

Like, and try to explain what the DBs were allowed to do. Yes. With the DBs and the hits that the safeties were allowed to employ on the wide receivers at that time.

[Bomani Jones]

Right?

[Shannon Penn]

Like.

[Bomani Jones]

Like, when people talk about Randy Boss.

[Shannon Penn]

They'Re like, yo, you know, we always.

[Bomani Jones]

Shaded the safety over that way. I don't hear people talk about Jerry Rice like that. Because that didn't matter. It didn't matter what. What you was doing.

[Shannon Penn]

No, no. It. It was easily the most unguardable offensive player in. As a wide receiver in history. Like, it's. It. And that. And that's the thing, too. It's like, like, because you bring up Randy Moss, like, at least with Moss, like, he had the measurables. Like, you look at Moss and he walks into a room like, oh, oh, that dude. Like, Jerry, not the same way. So for him, the route running, the catching, the run that they always talk about, he's faster after he catches the ball. Like, all of those stories. And then you look at Jerry Rice, okay. You look at the highlights. That makes sense. Oh, that's why Jerry Rice is Jerry Rice.

[Bomani Jones]

Just. Just the illest, right?

[Shannon Penn]

Yeah, right.

[Bomani Jones]

Just. Just. Just the illest. But you know what's interesting to look back on with those Cowboys teams in terms of style of play, because let me get into kind of like personality and stuff like that after the break. But what's interesting to me about them is Jimmy Johnson. Football is not an exciting brand of football, Right? It wasn't exciting at Miami. It wasn't exciting with the Cowboys. They. They had a pop tool, right? Like, they was it. They was them. But in the end, we're going to run the ball over and over and over again. And then on defense, we're going to rush four and we're going to drop seven. Why? Because our players are better than yours. That is our strategic advantage.

[Shannon Penn]

Well, then that goes back to Jerry. Like, I mean, excuse me, with Jimmy and, and the, and, and his scouting and his player evaluation, the fact that we didn't have to do all this other extra stuff because when we step out here, the left, no matter if we're offensive defense, 11 guys that we put out here is better than 11 guys you're going to put out here. What you going to do about it?

[Bomani Jones]

Here you go.

[Shannon Penn]

Boom. Stop it. We're gonna run it here. We're gonna give it to EMT 40 times. Go ahead. Stop it. A is gonna pass it maybe 15 times, bro.

[Bomani Jones]

Well, think about this, right? You know, and I think most people know, there's people who don't know. Jimmy coached at Miami before he got to Dallas. University of Miami, like Howard Schnellenberger starts the era. But the you is born truly as a brand, as a personality, as an entity that that is with Jimmy. Jimmy somehow was able to treat the NFL like it was when he was coaching Miami as an independent. Every week we are going to have better players than you, right? And if all. If what we do is we execute what we do with our better players, you will not be able to beat us. You are not supposed to be able to do that in the NFL. Even if this is the pre free agency era, right? Like the Steelers managed to do this because they had that unreal draft run right? Where they just out here drafted Swan Stallworth, Elsie Greenwood, Mel. Just, just every, like every hall of.

[Shannon Penn]

Fame draft classes, right? Hall of Fame draft classes, right?

[Bomani Jones]

Right. Like with three or four at the same time, right? Okay, maybe you could pull this, but by the 90s, you're not supposed to be able to just say, how about we just line them up and see who's best? What do you say?

[Shannon Penn]

I. I like our guys chances, but you go ahead. That's cute.

[Bomani Jones]

That's.

[Shannon Penn]

Yeah, go ahead. That's cute. Oh, you like your little, your little run defense? Oh, that's cute. Have you seen my offensive line?

[Bomani Jones]

Yo, Jimmy, Jimmy is like, we could have won this if it was Techbo bowl, right? If we got four plays and y' all got four plays and you just got to figure out what four plays we're gonna, we're gonna run, right? We'll beat everybody that way if you want it. If, if that's how you want to do it, we'll do it. And the other interesting part to me, and of course, like, you have Aikman, you have Emmett Smith, you have Michael Irvin.

[Shannon Penn]

Right.

[Bomani Jones]

Those three hall of Famers that would, you know, talk about, you hear about the offensive line and everything else, but when you really stop and think about them, especially on defense, that wasn't about superstars. Like, who do you think is the best of the, of that run? I guess they went and got Charles Haley. And that's a, that's an, that's an interesting one. But, but he's a, he's a guy that I don't count in a way because he's not like, he's not one of the dudes that came through the rise.

[Shannon Penn]

Right.

[Bomani Jones]

Of what this team was. Like, who's the best of those defensive guys? Is it Russell? Maryland? Like, who are we talking about? Jim Jeffcoat?

[Shannon Penn]

Ken Norton, maybe?

[Bomani Jones]

Ken Norton. Yeah, but like, we're not, we're not talking about hall of Fame players. Right. I think that's a big part of why there's the push for Darren Woodson. Often is because somebody over here has got to be a Hall of Famer. Right. Even that offensive line. Larry Allen went to the hall of Fame, but he was only on one of those super bowl teams. Like the. While they had better players. It also was a case that the sum was greater than the whole of the. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

[Shannon Penn]

Right, Right.

[Bomani Jones]

I almost had a George W. Bush moment right there.

[Shannon Penn]

I'm sure it's a saying in Tennessee, too. Yes, yes.

[Bomani Jones]

But they just had, they, they had a collection of guys. Now. You had dudes like Eric Williams. Eric Williams, Nate Newton. Like, they had guys. I'm not saying the guys weren't good.

[Shannon Penn]

And they had guys that they might not have been hall of Famers, but they were perennial Pro Bowlers. Like, you look at the 90s teams, whenever you would have. Because I, whenever I would play Techmo bowl or whatever. And every year it's either it's the full NFC Pro bowl is Cowboys, even the 49ers, like, that was, that was it. Especially in the 90s. So like you said, even though they weren't hall of Famers, those guys up and down the line, whether it was offensive line or some of the defensive guys were still Pro bowl caliber players. Wouldn't that still matter?

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah, they, they, they, they did a lot. They got a lot of it done at one time. And coming up next, we'll talk about the next. Fun part of it is we'll talk about Obviously you got Aikman, you got Smith, you got Irvin, but what you also have is the personality of this team, which is kind of unlike anything we've seen since. Coming up next, every Friday from 6 to 7:30, it's NBA happy hour on FanDuel. Your pregame for the weekend. We're talking limited time specials you won't want to miss, boosts, bonuses, surprises, all dropping in the app during happy hour. So before tip off, check the FanDuel app to see the week's special. Then make your move before the shot clock expires at 7:30 Eastern. It's the perfect way to start your weekend. A little basketball, a little action and a whole lot of Friday energy. That's NBA Happy Hour every Friday from 6 to 7:30pm Eastern only on FanDuel. Official sportsbook partner of the NBA 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino.

[Shannon Penn]

Or 18 and present in D.C. kansas.

[Bomani Jones]

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[Shannon Penn]

Right?

[Bomani Jones]

Right. Where like you got to remember they didn't pass the ball much. And TROY Aikman had one season over 20 touchdowns in his whole career. Fun fact that people do not know. But Michael Irvin was by and large getting his numbers. And you seen that clip where he talks about where he got to cussing, explaining them dudes. I played when there was pain and that's right. Like nobody in the league anymore. There used to be a league where. What do you say about that guy, man, he go. He make the hard catches. There aren't hard. Like, we don't. I'm not saying catches are easy now, but we don't have like them hospital balls ain't what they were back in the day. Michael Irvin made the hard catches on a team where everybody knew that the ball was going to him.

[Shannon Penn]

Absolutely.

[Bomani Jones]

And.

[Shannon Penn]

And that's the thing too with, with Irving and. And obviously we'll get to Jerry. But Irvin was the spirit of those teams. Like even, I mean, he was on those bad Cowboys teams. Like, he was the spirit of it. So then when they then brought in Jimmy, they were able to usher in some of that same, that spirit and emotion that you saw Jimmy have and Irvin have with those Miami teams. And then he brought that leadership value too, that leadership aspect to the Cowboys when they were starting to get good, you know, giving guys Aikman that confidence when he knew the head coach didn't have that with him, but still giving him the confidence. And of course, he's a playmaker. So when he knew he was getting the ball going, the ball was going to him, he was going to make the plays because they weren't throwing at a time.

[Bomani Jones]

I think that Michael Irvin has an argument for being like culturally the most significant football player that there has ever been. Not saying he is all the way. But he has an argument like, we don't. The line I've used is like, what if Jalen Rose was a first ballot, hall of Fame type of player, right? So think about this. The influence of the University of Miami on the culture of college football, right? Like, that was it takes a nation of millions to hold us back type shit. Where they were like this. They became something. And the NCAA was like, this has to stop. And this has to stop right now. But the truth is, the dominant culture in football really, over the last 35 years has been the culture of the state of Florida, right? Like when you started looking around and looking up and it's all these dudes with goals and all these dudes with dreads. Like, Florida became the football, where Atlanta became the rap. Like it was. It influenced everything. It touched. Even if Michael Irvin did not fit the archetype of that, the attitude of Florida, of State of Florida football was the attitude of the University of Miami. Even Florida State, which was trafficking in very similar players. And Billy Bobby Bowden was a very live and let live sort of dude. No, no, no, no. It was the. The Miami Hurricane, starting really in 1985, right? That's the year they went to Oklahoma. It would have punked them at midfield, right? That is the beginning of the U era, as far as I'm concerned. And the personification of that is Michael Irvin, right? Like, of course, you had Melvin Bradley, had Alonzo Highsmith. It's not like there aren't other dudes. But Irvin then takes this to the NFL and the Cowboys become the Miami of this. And I think, yes, some of that's about Jimmy, because Jimmy kind of liked that stuff. Jimmy enjoyed, like, running up the score on people and everything else. But no, no, no. The center of this is Michael Irvin. And a big part of that is. Is Michael Irvin will tell you he's a winner, dog, like, for everything around Michael Irvin, man, that dude worked hard. That dude put into grind. That dude did the difficult things, right? That dude had a, shall we call it, savvy understanding of power dynamics.

[Shannon Penn]

Yes.

[Bomani Jones]

Push back on and who not to push back on and the likes and everything else. But the truth is, he was. And he was every bit as good as he said he was. And in a way that was, like, old school. Very old school.

[Shannon Penn]

And like, this whole Cowboys thing don't hit without Michael Irvin. Like, it don't hit in the same way. Not saying they wouldn't have been good. It don't hit the Same way. Because, like, he brought that. The confidence. I'm not going to use the word swagger because that gets you overused, but he brought that confidence and that standard to the Cowboys. Like, hey, like you said, I'm a winner. And. And we should be winning. And. And I'm not going to accept anything less than winning. Like, yes, you might see me loud or whatever, but I'm putting in the work. And why should. Why aren't you putting in that same level of work? Because I'm. Because, look, I'm about winning, dog. So if you ain't about winning, let we bring in a coach who's about winning, who's about to do anything possible to get these dubs.

[Bomani Jones]

And he handed Jimmy Johnson a list of the dudes that needed to go. Yeah, yeah. When he shows up, he was like, these guys are losers. Yeah. And we need to get him out to get them out of here. Because that was the thing about the Canes. Look, man, one thing about that Miami era we don't talk enough about is they suffered some horribly embarrassing losses along the way. There's the 92 Sugar Bowl. There's the 85 Sugar bowl against Tennessee where they lost, like, 38 to 9. There's the 86 Fiesta Bowl. You know where they took that? L. They. Michael Irvin been through some football things, right? Like, he got in. He got that national championship in 87. They didn't get it in 86 where they were supposed to, right? And I remember him after that game in 86, being out there doing the interviews after they had been so obnoxious the whole way and, like, owning the fact that they did not get it like that. Dude learn the hard way what it takes in order to get it. He suffered through a 1 in 15 season in the NFL. He went through all of that, and, man, he was good. Like, I just can't. And. And not again, not in a way where you're going to see, like, unreal footage of how good he was. It's just going to be like, damn, he caught another one, huh?

[Shannon Penn]

And that's the thing, because it wasn't the cumulative numbers, like, it was. It was the important, like, the playmaker. Like, it was making plays when they counted most because he wasn't going to put up the numbers because they didn't pass at the same level as some of the other receivers of his time. But it was like, all right, we need a big play. Big third down. Let's go. Let's go to Michael Irvin. You saw it in some of those 49er games, you saw it. Some of those playoff games against the packers, hey, we need a big catch. Hey, go to Michael Irvin.

[Bomani Jones]

Hey, when there was pain, He's like these little youngsters, you are not going to minimize this. Bang gate dog. No, sir. Win there was pain. Then we also have Emma Smith. And as I look back on it, I don't think we gave Emma Smith enough credit at the time. And I think especially because Barry Sanders looks so incredible that, you know, the, the argument very frequently was, well, what if Barry Sanders got to play behind the Cowboys offensive line? Which is fair. I also think that the Lions were better in that era than they got credit for being with Barry Sanders. Like, they were not. This was not the Joey Harrington Lions that he was playing for. They were not great, but they were not, they were not abject, right? Like he was not just out there entirely by himself, but that is the comparison that Emma Smith always had to deal with. And it was almost held against him that he was so durable, right? Like that you could just keep giving him the ball, but if a hole was there, he was gonna hit it and he was gonna hit it quick. And next thing you know, like, you don't become the all time leading rusher in the history of NFL without being a beast. You don't win a Russian title in 14 games without being an actual factual beast.

[Shannon Penn]

Right? And, and two, because it didn't look like Barry Sanders did. Like, like I mentioned before when we out here in the streets playing, if you a quarterback, you wanted to be Montana, if wide receiver, you wanted to be Rice, if running back, you wanted to be Barry Sanders. No one, and I mean no one was out there saying, yo, I'm Emma Smith.

[Bomani Jones]

Right?

[Shannon Penn]

Like, look, you on the Cowboys in the 90s, no one wanted to be Emma Smith. But he just went about his, he went about his business because he didn't look like Barry Sanders.

[Bomani Jones]

Well, especially if you played against like an imaginary person, you know what I'm saying? Like all you do it is just running in straight lines. If you have a Smith like you, Barry said, as you're out here spitting, you know, like unreal stuff. That's all I talk about. I can't imagine going in the backyard pretending to be Tom Brady. What? Just standing there.

[Shannon Penn]

Right? Exactly. Like I'm not out here in the streets like, like being applauded for being a patient running back. No. Yeah, I'm out here juking, I'm trying to break ankles.

[Bomani Jones]

Nah, that dude was so good. Oh, that dude was so good. And he has for me one of the most memorable running back games ever. And it's the type of game that nobody is ever going, why you doing that?

[Shannon Penn]

Why you doing that? Why you doing that? I want to see what you doing. I want to see which game you're referring to.

[Bomani Jones]

Why are you doing that?

[Shannon Penn]

I got a feeling I know which one it's going to be, but go ahead, go ahead, tell us Bo, which game is it?

[Bomani Jones]

It is the type of a gladiator perform performance that we don't see from running backs anymore. And it is the last game of the season at Giant Stadium, 1993. Smith and the Giants. And sometime toward the end of the first half, I believe it was, they threw him, Smith on the ground. He had a separated shoulder that he clearly could not move at all. He could only move it enough to take a hand off basically. And they tied that arm up Ally Lawrence Taylor in the Superdome against the Saints. And they just kept giving the ball to Emma Smith over and over again in the second half and just pounded the Giants to win the NFC east and ultimately go win the Super Bowl.

[Shannon Penn]

How you let this do with one arm beat you? That's what I like, like that was my thing. It was like I gave no credit, no praise to Emma Smith. My thing was I was so pissed off at annoying. Like you knew he was hurt, everybody knew. And you let this dude with one arm beat you and it wasn't like it was giving him. They kept feeding him with one arm. Like, what are you doing? Like you couldn't no strip. You couldn't punch him in nothing. Like what are we, what are we doing here?

[Bomani Jones]

First of all, you have to be that dude for them to be like, I know you got one arm and we still going to give you the.

[Shannon Penn]

Ball and we still going to beat them dudes with you with this one arm.

[Bomani Jones]

I can't imagine how insulting that was, bro.

[Shannon Penn]

Like, try to explain that. It's like you feel like you're the damn Harrison Ford in the Fugitive. Like, yo, we just lost to a one armed man. Like, what are we out here doing? Like come on. To this day, bro, to this day. That's how I knew exactly what game you was talking about. Like he had one hand, man, he had one arm. So the thing is, I knew you.

[Bomani Jones]

Would know what game it was. I did not know however, what an acute memory it was for you.

[Shannon Penn]

No, it wasn't like he was rotating the ball. He kept the ball in the same strong hand. Cause he couldn't Put it in his other hand. You knew that and you still allowed it to happen.

[Bomani Jones]

They just like is nothing more demoralizing. And that's something this generation will never understand. Then the good old nine minute drive. You remember back when it would just be nine minute drives. Demoralizing a lot. We just got a line up in the eye and we go pound y' all over and over again and that.

[Shannon Penn]

And that's worse. Like if you, if, if it's a big play drive, like there's a shock value to it. Like I can't believe it just happened. And you move on, we getting the ball back. When you have these demoralizing eight 9 minute long drives and you just beat down to hell and, and you got your third team defensive lineman out here because the other guys are winded and they still just giving it to you. And then you, you turn around and look and it's a one armed man that's doing it to you on national television. On national television too. I was so, I was so so.

[Bomani Jones]

And the Giants weren't supposed to be good that year. I think that was Dan Reed's first year, right? Or, or may. Either way, y' all thought y' all was gonna win a division and y' all won the division.

[Shannon Penn]

Should have won the division.

[Bomani Jones]

Could have won the division. Except for the fact that Emma Smith was that dude that day. Em was that dude that day. And keep in mind, his shoulder didn't get unseparated. Right. I guess they got a bye week. But they went and won the, they went and won the super bowl again. And that was the one. The, they beat the 49ers in the 92 season. And that was a. They beat him at Candlestick Park. Felt like a changing of the guard, but it didn't feel fair to call it a change of the guard. Like the, you know, the 49ers had already been down for a year, y'.

[Shannon Penn]

All.

[Bomani Jones]

I mean, they, the 49ers were the best team in the NFC that regular season. It was like, okay, you won the game. 93. 93 felt like a change into the guard beat them.

[Shannon Penn]

That was, that was different. That was different. And I think a lot of that too came from that winning night. More than you mean even the super bowl. It was beating the 49ers in 92. And it was like, oh, there's nobody out here that can beat us. Like, yeah, they didn't like from that, from that 92 NFC championship on, it was like, oh, this is different. Like this different. It don't matter what you guys doing, y' all not beating us.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah, and they. And they. They weren't like. I remember there was a play, I think it was to Ricky Waters, and this is what I knew. It was like, oh, man, y' all just finished. Um, it was a toss player to Ricky Waters or handoff, I can't remember which. But they got him at the line and drove him back like, seven yards. And it would have been forward progress, except he kept his balance and then tried to run again. And they took him down. And it's just like, damn, y'. All. No, like, y' all look like y' all feel like the Bad News Bears out here now. And y'. All. And y' all the 49ers.

[Shannon Penn]

Right? Right.

[Bomani Jones]

Like. Like the gold standard of the NFL for a team that won 10 games, like 14 years in a row, you know, in nine strike seasons, they were the gold standard. The Cowboys was like, nah, it's us now, right? And, and.

[Shannon Penn]

And two. And just how it lined up time wise. But you had obviously, you know, the 49ers being the team of the 80s and just how it lined up. Would it be in the early 90s? Like, it very much felt like a change, changing of the guard, not just on the field, but off the field as well. I know we'll get into the. The off the field stuff with the Cowboys, but it really did feel like, oh, this is about. This is what the 90s is supposed to. Is going to look like. Like, it very much felt that way.

[Bomani Jones]

Right, because it was very clear that, like, Jerry Rice did not like the Cowboys get down. Right. Which. Which. Which. Which led to something very interesting because 94 is when Deion Sanders goes to play for the 49ers. He has his best season. He is defensive player of the year. The 49ers were the best team in the NFC. They ultimately beat the Cowboys the. In the NFC championship game. This is also after we have so many things that we could have gotten to, but Jimmy Johnson getting fired by Jerry Jones because Jimmy was being disrespectful and Jerry had enough of it is really the best way to put it. Right? Like Jimmy say he. They say they at the owners meeting, and Jimmy pulls up to a table to talk to guys and Jerry's there. I mean, Jerry pulls up and Jimmy's there, and Jerry speaks to Jimmy, and Jimmy don't say nothing in front of people. Yeah, you gonna get fired for that. Right?

[Shannon Penn]

Like, you can't do this in front of mixed company. Like, yo, yo, like Embarrassing me. Yeah.

[Bomani Jones]

You could make the argument that maybe Jerry should have put up with it, but I understand why he didn't. Right. Like, I think I've always felt as though there was a limited shelf life on what Jimmy was doing and the nature and the way that he motivated people in the incredibly harsh way that he dealt with people. His belief that fear was the greatest motivator. It was a very collegiate style that only goes so far with grown men. Right. And after a while, that was going to run out of rope no matter what. Now, I don't know if it was going to run out of rope by 1994, but at some point it was going to go too far. But 94, they bring Switzer in. And the truth is, the cal. The 49ers went up like 14, nothing mad early in that game, and that margin wound up being what mattered. The Cowboys did not play a bad game after that. But Dion going to the 49ers, Jerry didn't really like him when he was. Didn't like Deion when he was there, because Deion's whole steez is the opposite of the 49er STEEs and the Jerry Rice steez. But at that point, Deion Sanders was the best defensive player at football. He was the defensive player of the year. And I mean, that. That 94 team was loaded. Like, your second best defensive back was Tim McDonald's. Your third best was Merton Hanks and.

[Shannon Penn]

And. And Dion and. And Jerry. Jerry Rice knew, too, was like, look, I don't get down the way he get down before. For. For. In order for us to beat this juggernaut that's on the other side of Dallas capital. Because that's all I was like, getting Dion was all about beating the Cowboys that year. That's all. That's all it was. It was like, we need this dude to play at this level. We need an athlete like this to play on this level to beat these dudes. That's what that was.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah, but think about, man. They got Ken Norton also that year. Yeah, that was Bryant Young's rookie year. They had Dana Stubblefield on, like, on defense. They were loaded. Offense, he's talking about, like, Ricky Waters, Will Floyd, Jerry Rice still at the peak of his powers. Steve Young the best that he has ever been. I mean, there was a lot of really good football players on the field in that game. And the 49ers got it. They won it. They went to the Super Bowl. And that was just. Whew, boy, that was comical. Steve Young threw for six touchdowns. And then Deion comes to the Cowboys. And the truth is, Deion Sanders on the Cowboys to me is kind of like when James Harden went to the Rockets. Not so much when James Harden went to play for the Rockets, the basketball team, but when he went to Houston and James Harden's whole life he thought he was a California dude, you know what I mean? And then he got to Houston and was like, wait a minute, this is what I am. Right? Deion Sanders was always a Dallas Cowboy. He just had not played for them yet.

[Shannon Penn]

Right.

[Bomani Jones]

The time, the pairing of Dion with the Cowboys was. Yep, this is what this was always supposed to be.

[Shannon Penn]

Right? It was, I mean, pun. Pun intended. But it was prime time. Like it felt like it was must. Must see tv. Like the. The Cowboys were the Cowboys and the personalities. But then when you add Dion, it's like, oh, we need to watch every game. Like every game. It was big. You also had in that year too, because you had Dion, you had the Jerry Jones Nike deal, you had the Jerry Jones Pepsi deal around that same time as well. It's like, it's like everything that they're doing is elevated to be like this. There's levels to this. It's like y' all here in the NFL Cowboys, like, we're here like this, this is different. This is before reality tv. Like, this is making sure that. That the Cowboys were going to be the 24 hour news cycle before such a thing really even existed to the extent that it does now. It's like year round, it was like, oh, what are the Cowboys doing good? They were indifferent.

[Bomani Jones]

They were larger than life. And then we started talking about, you know, the White House. Right?

[Shannon Penn]

Yeah.

[Bomani Jones]

And. And all those things that then go around it. They were larger than life. And I think this is also in line, not directly tied to the Miami influence of Michael Irvin, but also a similarity between them, which is. And look, the Cowboys had some of this going in the 70s also, but it's one thing to be the best team in the league, but this had the college renegade energy to it of they weren't cheating, but it felt like they was cheap. Like, like. And they be into stuff. Like college football is all about the good teams also being into stuff. They was into stuff.

[Shannon Penn]

It's interesting you make that point because it felt like for those Cowboys teams, like there was a different set of rules for that for the Cowboys and there were other teams in the NFL. It's like you're allowing these guys to get away with stuff. Some on the field, but mostly off the field that, hey, it would be frowned upon with other teams. Like, hey, like the concept and idea of having a White House in itself. You wouldn't, you wouldn't fathom that happening in a Green Bay, Wisconsin, you know, or the 49ers with their culture. But for Dallas, hey, that was accepted. Like, it was very much like you still had a lot of the remnants of the outlaw renegade vibes of those University Miami teams. Which goes back to our point earlier of the micro urban influence, the White.

[Bomani Jones]

House, which by the way, is the name of Michael Irvin's new podcast that. Did you see where he was like, I ain't done cocaine in 20 years, but it ain't no five hour cocaine. If you got some five hour cocaine, let me know. I'm like, partner, I don't know nothing about this, right? Like, I know nothing at all. Cause here's the thing about Michael Irvin when it comes to something like cocaine, right? The thing about Michael Irvin and the cocaine is only problem, cocaine caused. Michael Irvin, as far as we know, was getting arrested. Like he was still coming to work on time. He was still on his grind. He was like, I see no reason to change anything about my lifestyle. But after that super bowl, the last 1, Super Bowl 30 in Arizona over the Steelers, honestly, the. The part that's interesting in that is that they didn't play the 49ers in the conference championship game that year. Instead they played the Green Bay Packers. And it becomes a very interesting point of comparison because the packers had Brett Favre on one side, Reggie White on the other. They had an argument that they had the two best players in the NFL at that point. And they had a nice run after this, right? Couple Super Bowls, all that, man, it paled in comparison to what we talking about here with these Dallas Cowboys. And the packers are a pretty big deal around the country. It was nothing like this. But 96 is when Michael Irving gets arrested. And you remember when they had the picture of that big old rock that they found in the hotel and rock was like this big. I'm not exaggerating. Like, rock don't even feel like the right word. It felt like a boulder look like a pebble. Like this giant ass rock that he had that they busted him with. And you watch the Netflix doc, right? The part where Michael Irvin explains. And I need you guys to understand this, this trial was in Dallas. It's in March. Michael Irvin is making an appearance for the grand jury. He shows up in a full length mink. Michael Irvin lives in Dallas. Michael Irvin is from Miami. Why does Michael Irvin have a mink? Apparently just in case he had to go before the grand jury. And he explained in that documentary that he did that because the district attorney came to him and told Michael Irvin that he felt like Michael Irvin was taking these white girls and getting them on this dope and corrupting them. And therefore this white man was going put him in jail. And Michael Irvin told him that after this was open over, somebody was still going to pay him a million dollars to catch a football. And your little short ass is still going to be. I can't even remember the rest, but Michael Irvin said that about that mink. And I quote, it was necessary.

[Shannon Penn]

Very much like that, too. Very much my curving way. And I believe a 100.

[Bomani Jones]

It was.

[Shannon Penn]

That's.

[Bomani Jones]

Let me tell you something.

[Shannon Penn]

It was absolutely necessary.

[Bomani Jones]

Everybody's like, Michael Irvin is an articulate enunciate, right? He was like, absolutely nest to see. He gets every. He gets everything out of every syllable. It was necessary. That was what the Cowboys were at this point, because now they're Barry Switzer's Cowboys. Like, this is what. Barry Switzer gets caught at the airport with the tool in the bag like this around this time. Like, this is. This is who they were at this point. This is. This is the part behind the music where now. Now the records, they sell it like they used to.

[Shannon Penn]

Like, they reach their heights. And then you start seeing the signs where it's starting to. It's starting to turn and.

[Bomani Jones]

Right. Well, like in 96. In 96, they put out a top five record, you know what I'm saying?

[Shannon Penn]

But, like, I mean, it was cool. Like, it was cool. Like, it didn't really, like, it felt like them, but it wasn't really like the same. Like, I mean, it's cool, you know, it's. I mean, it's home again. It ain't really any heartbreak.

[Bomani Jones]

It's cool.

[Shannon Penn]

That hit me off, you know, it.

[Bomani Jones]

Ain'T Get Back to the Top, right? They, they, they, they, they. It has some jams on it, right? There's no question it has some songs, but it ain't. It ain't Get Back to the top. And then 97, basically, it's over. 97. They missed the playoffs.

[Shannon Penn]

Yeah.

[Bomani Jones]

Like, it's a rap. Barry. Barry Switzer is fired. Like Chan. What's Chan Galo, Coach, man. You know.

[Shannon Penn]

Feel. It felt very white flag.

[Bomani Jones]

I think the foliage flag. Yeah, yeah, I think. I mean, the full end to me, truly, like, honestly, as a dynasty, it had been over. But the true end is what Michael Irvin, you know, hurts his neck in Philadelphia. Like, that's where we're like, we're not even talking about this really anymore. Aikman retired in 2000. So Irving gets hurt. 99. Aikman retires in 2000. It's just like, no, this is a rap. This is.

[Shannon Penn]

And you had Dion dealing with the turf toe at the same time too, so.

[Bomani Jones]

That's right.

[Shannon Penn]

And you had Dion not really being what Deion Dion was. Offensive line, as we talked about, wasn't the same offensive line that they had in the early 90s. In the early 90s. So you saw the decline from not only the. The top tier players and what happened there, obviously with. With Irving and Irving and Dion was injury, but also you didn't see the. The depth in the talent anymore as well.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah. And you know, we ain't talked that much about Troy Aikman in this. And that's no shade to Troy Aikman. Troy Aikman was a very good quarterback on a very good team. And we'll never know just how good Troy Aikman was because it never came up. But I will say once again, TROY Aikman threw 20 touchdowns once. I'm not making this number up, guys.

[Shannon Penn]

Right. All right, well, so we talked about elephants and Rome. We didn't get to Aikman. But the biggest elephant we got to address when it comes to the Dallas Cowboys, we really haven't, like the Jerry factor in all of this. Yeah, like the Jerry. The Jerry Factor. The P.T. barnum style. That was Jerry Jones in all of this. I think on the field aside, I think all of that, the extra stuff is what separated the Cowboys and why their dynasty, that 90s run, is looked at so differently compared to some of the other dynastic runs that we've seen over time. Because it was so different. It really was like, it. It made people care about the Cowboys in a way that had absolutely nothing to do with the on field performance. Whether it was the more spotlight the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders. It was like I mentioned, the Nike deal, the Pepsi deal, the commercials, the personalities, the riffs. Like all of that stuff. It goes back to a lot of it with the branding, goes back to Jerry Jones.

[Bomani Jones]

The moment I will never Forget is in 94, Jerry debuted, they had these double star jerseys. Cause the Cowboys have basically worn the same jerseys since as long as I can remember. Right. And you'll see they wear these throwback jerseys now, but these were different. This is the throwback year where everybody was wearing a throwbacks, but they broke out a whole new jersey, right. It had a star here and had a star there. That's why the double star jersey. And when it was time to break and debut those jerseys, I'll never forget modeling that jersey was Jerry Jones. Jerry Jones was in a full uniform, pads and all. And he pulled up on NBC or Fox one of those in the jersey as the model for it. Like he, he. He was a football player. He played on a national championship football team. He saw himself as a football man. His inspiration is Al Davis, right. Who was a football man who was very involved in football in that way. And Jerry wanted to feel like or believe that he should be involved in the football of it all. But also he decided, we're going to make this thing really big.

[Shannon Penn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bomani Jones]

And he did make it really big. Now, the question, of course, for people is, did he make it big at the expense of the football? I don't know. Right. It seems easy to make that connection, but I can't even say he changed the game because nobody else has tried to do it like him. Like, George Steinbrenner was living a very similar sort of life, except Jerry never seemed unhinged. Right.

[Shannon Penn]

And Steinbrenner, with the military background, was very much regimented, obviously with the facial hair policy and that. And that's some of the thing where he had to respect for the past. But it was kind of. It was really, with Steinbrenners were a little too traditional when it came to that tank where Jerry was like, hey, nobody else is doing this. Let's try this.

[Bomani Jones]

Well, also, yeah, Jerry's not a bad guy like Jerry did. Jerry didn't put a PI on any of his players to try to, to try to take them down like Steinbrenner, you know, like, you know, like it's. But you're right, he is no agent. And it's funny, no owner anywhere decided to kick it like Jerry. Like, nobody ever really kicked it like Al Davis.

[Shannon Penn]

Yeah, that's different.

[Bomani Jones]

I'm a big. Al hung on a little bit too long with what he was doing. But I don't. Oh, God, I love Al. This. The idea of Al Davis is amazing to me.

[Shannon Penn]

And I mean, I mean, Al Davis had the overhead projection presentation on when he did.

[Bomani Jones]

He did. And he was right. Everything he said was right. The, the thing with Al Davis, though, I see what makes Al interesting or different to me than Jerry is I, I believe Al Davis was a Genius. I do not believe that Jerry Jones was like, I think that Al Davis had a vision for his franchise. Like, when you think about all the things that Al Davis did, like, Al Davis was. Al Davis had a hand in the football. Al Davis came up with all those slogans and sayings that would be around the field. He changed the colors of the jerseys to silver and black. Not just involved in the football. A very clear philosophy. I talked to somebody who worked at, like, the Raider store in the mall in Sacramento, and Al was coming in, looking at the merchandise and set up and all of that stuff. Right. Like, Jerry, I felt like, is a great promoter. And his thing was, the NFL has a set of rules that are about sharing the wealth, but we drive more wealth than anybody else, so we should get more wealth than everybody else, which is honestly a violation of the principles that they had tried to enact. And like Al Davis, he decided to challenge it and get the money that there was for the Cowboys because he knew the Cowboys were different. He knew the Cowboys were special. And for the Cowboys to be that girl, sometimes that girl gotta act like that girl, now, don't she? You know? But he's. He's it. And the truth is, he's the only common thread from the dynasty to now, but he's also the only common thread from the dynasty ending to now. He'll always be the person that we associate what goes wrong with. Right. And look, everybody's been to the conference final, a conference championship game, except for what, them and the Texans.

[Shannon Penn]

Sounds about right.

[Bomani Jones]

Like, pick a team out of hat.

[Shannon Penn]

Yeah, yeah. Because even Jacksonville's.

[Bomani Jones]

Jacksonville's made it. Made it twice.

[Shannon Penn]

Twice. Yeah.

[Bomani Jones]

The jets have made it twice. Yeah. The Lions have made it. Everybody done got. The Cardinals have been to a Super Bowl. Oh, hold on, hold on. Forgot about the Browns. That's on me.

[Shannon Penn]

That's on me. One day. One day.

[Bomani Jones]

By the way, you see, they gonna send the Saints and the Browns over to Paris to play. And aside from the fact that that football ain't gonna be it, I was hoping it would be the Falcons and the Saints so that we can't. New could go. You understand what I'm saying? We. We could make that trip.

[Shannon Penn]

You can't have that. The Falcons in the. You can't have that.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah.

[Shannon Penn]

You say in front of company. You can't.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah, yeah.

[Shannon Penn]

With the Falcons in the Saints, you can't just be. You can't have that.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah. I tell you this, though. Instead, you're going to get a bunch of people from Cleveland well, yeah, that's. No, it's going to be fun. It's going to be fun for new. For New Orleans folks to go there, because I went to Paris and finally New Orleans made sense.

[Shannon Penn]

Well, that's what I was going to say. I'm sure they picked the Saints because of the whole French, you know.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah, the Saints have been. The Saints have been pushing for that. Like, they. They had been. They had been trying to get that. I don't know how we wound up there, but. Oh, well, it happens. All right.

[Shannon Penn]

There's one more. There's one more factor, too, I had to bring up with the Cowboys. And a lot of this is because of Jerry Jones and the promotion to PT Barnum. As I mentioned before, it's Cowboys fans. Like, all right, I know I'm one to talk as a Knick fan. Like, I get it. I get it. But Cowboy fans, and that's part of it, too. We go back to the 90s. That made them insufferable were Cowboy fans. Like, they all Cowboys fans, insists upon themselves, to borrow a term from Peter, Peter Griffin, like, this got nothing to do with y', all, but y' all somehow, some way, still find yourself trying to put yourselves in these conversations. This ain't got nothing to do with you.

[Bomani Jones]

Like, like, what is this in this case?

[Shannon Penn]

Everything. Everything in. Everything in life. Like, dog, yes. Next year is going to be out here, dog. The only way we gonna see your super bowl winners on vhs. Somehow, you're still inserting. Inserting yourselves. Like, honestly, it still feels like a celebratory moment on social media when the Cowboys lose. It still has that feel. And we are 30 years removed from them winning the Super Bowl. It's like cowboy fans always. I don't know if this works now, because the delusional now or. Or the 90s, when they were actually good. Like, it's just. For me, it's just Cowboy fans still to this day, maybe they've been humbled a little bit. I doubt it. But Cowboy fans is probably the worst part of all of this. All of it.

[Bomani Jones]

I think they get a bad rap, man. They've been loyal and they've been dedicated to this sad sack outfit. They don't get no payoff from it. They keep coming back like, they are Knicks fans now. Like, y' all are the same.

[Shannon Penn]

And that's the thing. They used to make the joke, well, you know, we won, champ. Well, it's been 30 years. Like, I get it. The Knicks have been 50, 50 plus.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah. But that might as well be the same.

[Shannon Penn]

It's the same. Like, right? That's the thing. If I can't. If I can't watch your super bowl or your championship highlights in hd, then you all in the same. We grouping. Y' all in the same boat. If this shit ain't. If it ain't in 4k, then we ain't the same.

[Bomani Jones]

I knew you just wanted to get that in, so I'm gonna let you.

[Shannon Penn]

I had to. Oh, my gosh.

[Bomani Jones]

You know what I'm saying?

[Shannon Penn]

Oh, my gosh. I had to.

[Bomani Jones]

Hey, that is Shannon Penn. Check out Freddie and Harry afternoons, ESPN radio, my brother. I appreciate you.

[Shannon Penn]

Yes, sir.

[Bomani Jones]

Hey, ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the right time. We do this three, four times a week. Ryan Brumley handles everything behind the. Thank you, sir. Hit the voicemail line. 323-59-67767. By the way, Shannon, right fast.

[Shannon Penn]

Who?

[Bomani Jones]

The funniest name that you could imagine in the Epstein files.

[Shannon Penn]

Oh, my gosh. Well, there were some reports that. That said it was a couple of rappers, but I don't know how true that was.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah, I say Tim Tebow.

[Shannon Penn]

Who? Nah, he was just praying, you know?

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah, just saying. But if he turned up in there, that would be funny. That would be funny.

[Shannon Penn]

He was just praying for him. That's all that was.

[Bomani Jones]

Yeah, that's why he was on that one knee. Follow the right time. Subscribe like, rate us. Review us. Give us two knees for Jesus. Give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. We talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.