NFL Combine Winners and Losers, Lions Trade Montgomery, Tales From Indy, and Pie for Breakfast

Summary

The Ringer NFL Draft Show — March 3, 2026

Episode Title: NFL Combine Winners and Losers, Lions Trade Montgomery, Tales From Indy, and Pie for Breakfast
Hosts: Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, Craig Horlbeck

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Ringer NFL Draft Show, recorded just after the 2026 NFL Combine in Indianapolis, finds hosts Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, and Craig Horlbeck diving deep into the winners, losers, and record-breaking feats from the combine. They react to notable NFL news—including the Detroit Lions' trade of David Montgomery—debate trends shaping modern NFL prospects, and exchange stories from their week in Indy. In classic fashion, the trio’s rapport ranges from sharp football insight to comedic takes on pie for breakfast, “real mannequins,” and the existential point of lunch.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. NFL News: Lions Trade David Montgomery to Texans

[03:07–09:38]

• The Trade:
  • Detroit Lions send RB David Montgomery to the Houston Texans (in exchange for a 4th, 7th, and center Juice Scruggs).
  • "Scruggs. What a name, dude." — Craig [03:35]
• Fantasy & Team Impact:
  • Jahmyr Gibbs now has an astronomical ceiling as the lead back in Detroit [04:03].
  • Montgomery is expected to take on a prominent role for Houston, complementing 2nd-year RB Woody Marks, but concerns exist about Houston trading away offensive linemen, including starting center Juice Scruggs and tackle Titus Howard.
• Broader View:
  • The Lions' recent run recapped as possibly "one of the best offenses I've ever seen that never made the Super Bowl." — Danny Kelly [08:11]
  • The logic of trading for o-lineman (Houston) and trading them away, as well as the uncertainty surrounding Cleveland Browns' entire offensive line and Deshaun Watson’s return from consecutive Achilles injuries [11:17–14:26].

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2. NFL Combine Winners, Losers & Trends

[17:57–71:24]

a) Historic Speed and Athleticism

• “The biggest winner of the combine is just speed.” — Danny Heifetz [18:15]
  • Nearly every positional group posted the fastest aggregate 40-yard dash times ever.
  • Notable stat: Defensive backs, wide receivers, running backs, linebackers, and even offensive linemen — all recorded historically fast group times [19:07].
  • Participation may skew this—more “fast guys” are testing, while slower players choose not to run [21:05].

b) Sonny Styles, LB (Ohio State): Combine Superstar

[23:08–32:13]

• Profile: 6'5", 240+ lbs, 43.5" vertical (higher than top NBA Combine numbers), outstanding tape, and emotional intensity — “nicknamed after Sonny from The Godfather because he had so many anger issues as a child that they just called him Sonny.” — Danny Heifetz [23:16]
• Draft buzz: “There's talk of people…coming out of the combine, people are saying top five is possible. I certainly think top ten is possible now.” — Craig [25:41]
• Why the Rise? Epitomizes the new archetype: big, fast, versatile defenders who can tackle, cover, blitz—true “do-it-all” modern defenders (see: Mike Macdonald defense discussion [26:46]).

c) Kenyon Sadiq, TE (Oregon): Shocking Athletic Profile

[34:09–43:32]

• Record Numbers: 6'3", 241 lbs, 4.39 40-yard dash (fastest ever for a TE), 43.5" vertical (2nd-best ever), elite broad jump [41:14].
• Upshot: “The ceiling is there for him to be a three down [tight end]…they’re not going to have to take him off the field when they want to block.” — Danny Kelly [43:18]
• Debate: Where is the right draft slot for a modern tight end with rare athleticism but less polished blocking/receiving?

d) Eli Stowers, TE (Vanderbilt): Jumps out of the Gym

[43:32–46:40]

• 6'4", 239 lbs. Ran 4.54, jumped 45.5" (combine record for vertical).
• Skepticism around fit: “What am I going to do with a way more athletic Evan Engram…If you can't block and you're not an elite receiver…what am I going to do with you?” — Danny Heifetz [45:20]
• Will need a creative, pass-focused system.

e) Jeremiah Love, RB (Notre Dame): Only Elite RB in the Class

[48:35–58:36]

• 6'0", 212 lbs. 4.36 40-yard dash (faster than prime Saquon, CMC, Taylor, Bijan).
• Consensus: Only "blue-chip" RB in class; fits new value model as a backfield receiver.
• Draft Range Debate: Will he slip due to positional value? KC at 9, Cowboys at 12 debated as plausible/likely.
  • “The idea that [Love] would be at worst your third highest graded player at some point…I hope boards mean something.” — Heifetz [53:18]

f) Other Combine Standouts

[63:53–75:39]

• Mike Washington Jr., RB (Arkansas): 4.33 at 221 lbs; emotional moment after run [59:13].
• Dylan Theaniman, S (Oregon): 4.35 40-yd, 41" vert, versatile safety; comped to M. Fitzpatrick [68:12–70:43].
• Jeff Caldwell, WR (Cincinnati): 6'5", 216 lbs, 4.31 40-yd; “third round from day three” [74:58].

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3. Combine/Scouting Process—Human vs. Objective Data

[33:01–43:16, 84:30–88:39]

• The combine is as much an advertising campaign as a true test — “If he runs a fast 40 time now, you have something you can market.” — Danny Kelly [34:29]
• Teams vary on what numbers to trust: lasers, hand-timing, GPS data.
  • “Should we trust the lasers or your hand? This laser-timed thing is actually false.” [85:44]
• Boiling skepticism about the objectivity of measurements, especially when agents and evaluators “help” with information [86:08–87:10].

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4. Personality & Podium Moments From Indy

[75:39–84:30]

• Makai Lemon (USC): Bizarre, viral interview behavior — “He was slightly sexual…nervous stoner, trying to alpha everybody.” — Panel [77:03, 78:13]
• Elijah Surratt (Indiana): Earnestness, unintentionally awkward Michael Vick “dog” quote [81:38].
• QB Diego Pavia (Vanderbilt): Defends wild off-field behavior by claiming, “Your frontal lobe isn’t fully developed until you're 25. I think I got like a year left till I'm fully baked.” [83:02]

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5. Funniest/Most Memorable Combine Moments

[83:16–106:25]

• Aaron Glenn, Jets Coach — Caught Sleeping! Visual captures of Glenn napping and then abruptly waking up like Michael Cera in Superbad [83:16–83:42].
• “Objective Reality” as a Combine Loser: Teams and media leave with different “official” numbers—"In a post-truth era, and it’s extended to the NFL Combine." — Heifetz [84:30]
• Favorite celebrity sightings in Indy: “Big Dom” (Eagles security man) trailing Nick Sirianni, exuding pure mafioso energy [98:10].
• Tales From Shapiro’s Deli: Cake at lunch, the joy and judgment of eating dessert during the day, and a meditation on pie as breakfast [109:57–116:41].

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Notable Quotes

• On Combine Speed:
  • “The combine was just…every single group had the fastest ever.” — Danny Heifetz [19:07]
• On Team-Building & Positional Trends:
  • “Defense is the same thing as the NBA…It’s more valuable to be a B in everything than have a D anywhere…” — Heifetz [28:09]
• On Jeremiah Love:
  • “The idea that a player that would be, at worst, your third highest graded player…then he falls to 12th, then what are we even doing?” — Heifetz [53:18]
• On Pie at Breakfast:
  • “If Mel Kiper can eat pumpkin pie for breakfast every day, why can’t we just have pie for breakfast?” — Kelly/Heifetz [116:01]
• On Real Life and POV at Indy:
  • “Now all the three, the seven footers can shoot threes because they're the only ones who survived. Football is very [much] the same.” — Danny Heifetz [30:48]
• On Combine Media Frenzy:
  • “You have all these podiums next to each other…it’s like 15 minutes of people yelling at you the whole time.” — Heifetz [79:17]

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Timestamps — Key Segments

• 02:12 — Episode start; combine themes and context
• 03:07 — David Montgomery trade, fantasy impact & Houston linemen exodus
• 09:39 — Cleveland Browns’ QB and OL mess, Deshaun Watson double Achilles saga
• 17:57 — NFL Combine “winners and losers” unveil
• 23:08 — Sonny Styles combine dominance and draft fit
• 34:09 — Kenyon Sadiq’s TE stardom and combine records
• 43:32 — Eli Stowers TE debate—athleticism vs. utility
• 48:35 — Jeremiah Love: RB1 debate, draft range, "coolest destination"
• 59:11 — Mike Washington Jr. emotional 40 time, running back class depth
• 68:12 — Dylan Theaniman, versatile S and positional trends
• 75:39 — Makai Lemon’s viral podium, charisma as WR “plus”
• 83:16 — Combine “losers,” Aaron Glenn “asleep,” the absurdity of timing/measures
• 90:45 — Tales from Indy: combine experience over the years, steakhouse stories
• 109:57 — Dessert at lunch, Shapiro’s Deli, and pie at breakfast

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Running Jokes & Cultural Moments

• The “Real Mannequin” department store for dads (“You should see a mannequin with a beer gut…should we open a store called Beer Gut?”) [62:13–63:16]
• Perpetual bit about DK’s daily quesadilla, Mel Kiper’s pumpkin pie breakfasts, and the existential cost/benefit of lunch [112:02–117:44]
• Mocking “objective reality” at the Combine—agents, hand-timed 40s, and arm lengths that magically grow at pro day [84:30–88:31]
• “Serpentine sexual serpent” Makai Lemon [82:22–82:34]

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Conclusion

This episode showcases The Ringer crew’s best qualities: deep football analysis, instinct for big-picture trends, and warm, banter-filled chemistry. Their nuanced takes on elite NFL prospects, skepticism of combine “truths,” and lively tales from the trenches in Indy—whether about freak athleticism or pie for breakfast—combine for a can’t-miss conversation for any football fan.

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For questions, pie-for-breakfast stories, or lunch takes, email: [e-mail]

Next up: Free agency analysis, combine follow-ups, and their signature offbeat NFL coverage.

Transcript

[Danny Heifetz]

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[Danny Heifetz]

Welcome to the Ringer NFL Draft Show. My name is Danny Heifetz and I'm joined by Danny Kale and Craig Horlbeck and the NFL Combine is over. We are going to break down the winners and losers and failures of objective of objective reality to measure how fast these guys ran and everything else. We were in Indianapolis for a week. So now we're back. All the drills are done. All the little like playing catch with each other. Dk as you always say, they're playing catch, they're running really fast in their shorts.

[Danny Kelly]

That's one of my all time favorite videos. They're going out there and they're playing catch.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I dug that up for my phone the other day and I was rewatching it Lovingly. It was great. So basically I was just really complaining that when we talk about pro days mattering, they're quite literally just going out there and tossing around the old pig skin. They're just playing some catch. No pads, no helmets, no defenders.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. You could just watch the tape of playing in real games against SEC opponents or you could watch them play catch.

[Danny Heifetz]

Let's.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Let's make judgments of who's going to be good by playing catch, you know, that's all I'm saying.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's incredible. So we're going to go through the combat windows. Losers. There were a lot of guys who ran fast and jumped very high. So we're going to go through all that. But first, there are. There is news. The Detroit Lions traded running back David Montgomery to the Houston Texans after a scuffle butt. I don't know the word.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I don't know, scuttle butt.

[Danny Heifetz]

Disagreements over what the trade was. I don't know why it was wrong. We have theories, but we'll keep them to ourselves. But the Texans traded a 4th rounder, 7th rounder and their center Juice Scruggs to the Lions.

[Danny Kelly]

What a name, dude.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Scrugs.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's a second round pick. Juice Scrugs.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's up there.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, I didn't. He's on the guys who weren't good enough for their name like Juice really didn't have.

[Danny Kelly]

Does he have the best O lineman name? He might.

[Danny Heifetz]

He's. It's high. Juice is very high. But good. Not enough Juice that he was actually able to stick at center for the center for the Texans. So, yeah, David Montgomery's out. Houston. The Lions got rid of him. I don't know. Dk, what is your first thought for all this? Is it Houston? Is it Lions? Is it fantasy Jameer Gibbs?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I mean, yeah, it's rocket ship Jameer Gibbs for starters. I think obviously we already knew he was going to be a really good player, but when you look at some of the splits where David Montgomery is not playing, playing, it's pretty incredible. I think he averages. I think Jir Gibbs averages like 25 points a game. So the ceiling is absolutely astronomical with Gibbs going forward now. I don't know who the RB2 on the Lions is even going to be at this point. I pulled up some of the guys. Tell me if you've heard of these guys. Jacob S. Sailors would be, I guess the RB2. According to our lads Sioni Vaki and Kyle Robot. Show thoughts on 3 as the RB2

[Danny Heifetz]

for the Lions also like plays defense.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Right he's like a linebacker, special teamer. Anyway. Yeah, this is great for Gibbs. I think it's also good for David Montgomery. My impression on this is that the Texans, I mean, they're giving up three pieces for this. Two picks and a player to bring in a running back. I see this as he's like replacing, you know what, they thought Joe Mixon was going to be the foundational type back. I think Woody Marks is going to be sort of a complimentary piece. I don't think they saw enough from him as a pure runner. Plus he was hurt. It felt like every week. So I think this is huge for David Montgomery. In fantasy, certainly.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. I mean, I think Gibbs already could have been the first pick in fantasy drafts, even if David Montgomery was in the Lions. So he. I think he definitely is now or should be probably the front runner. And then I feel like Montgomery. I like Woody Marks. I think Woody Marks is kind of good and, and was pretty impressive for a late round rookie last year. And I kind of feel like they're just going to do the same thing. It's going to be like their own version of Gibbs in Montgomery. Montgomery is going to be the bruiser and Woody Marks is going to be the complimentary piece. But I kind of like this. I think this, like, I'm happy for David Montgomery to have more of a, like a pronounced role. It was shrinking last year. I feel like we really saw Gibbs kind of take over. So for fantasy, I think this is. Yeah, I think this is good for

[Danny Heifetz]

Montgomery, the David Montgomery. It's sad to me because I always thought David Montgomery kind of embodied on offense that era of the Lions where he was just tough. He just had the attitude and everything that I think the Dan Campbell lines represented. And this, that was incredible. So this is from NFL research, which is just Jameer Gibbs and David Montgomery both scored a touchdown in 14 different games, which is the NFL record for two teammates. And they broke the record by Emmett Smith and Daryl Johnson on the Cowboys. But Daryl Johnson and Emmett Smith had seven more seasons as teammates. They did it in 10 years. David Montgomery Jr. Gibbs had four 14 games where they each scored a touchdown in three years. So it really was one of the more productive backfields in the history of the league. As like both, like, how many times have we said split backfields, guys? They really both got like a crazy amount of production and volume and everything. But also, I just love David Montgomery having the career renaissance where he's just like a fun player to watch. And he was like him in Chicago and him in Detroit were two different people.

[Danny Kelly]

The Lions are a weird team because we might look back 10 years from now and discuss like how dominant that team was for like two to three seasons and nothing ever materialized.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Right.

[Danny Kelly]

Like, I'm not sure which direction the team's going in. It's like, I hope they hold on. I think the team is super fun and I hope they can like have another shot to make a Super Bowl. But it is weird how good they were for those two seats. They were incredible and like probably should have been in the super bowl for how dominant they were offensively. And it's kind of sad that that might be over quickly.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, the stars aligned for them in a lot of ways. Think about like their offensive line, Ben Johnson coming up as and emerging as one of the best play callers, the resurrection of Jared Goff. All the things did kind of align for them to be this smash mouth team that scored a ton of touchdowns. Craig, I'll never forget just hit Craig texting on Sundays as soon as the Lions get anywhere near the end zone. This is a. This is Craig Horlbeck, manager of Jared Goff, quarterback for fantasy and just never again. Just absolutely melting down because he's like, oh, it's going to be another rushing touchdown.

[Danny Kelly]

They would legitimately have like five rushing touchdowns in a single game as they beat the commanders 42 to 7. I'm like, God damn. So dominant that Lions there.

[Danny Heifetz]

I really do think that that last three or four years to Lions like what it could have showed a Hall of Fame, like one of my favorite teams to watch that they made a Super bowl and like it might be

[Danny Kelly]

one of the best offenses I've ever seen that won't make the super. That never made the Super Bowl.

[Danny Heifetz]

I think the. Yeah, the Ravens a couple years ago up there, the Saints and the, you know, that should have made the super bowl over the Rams, but love them. I will say I think it makes sense for the Lions though. I mean it's a good return. If you're a Texans fan, you're saying, wow, David Montgomery is only 28. If you're a Lions fan, you're saying David Montgomery about to be 29 in June. But I do think it makes sense. They need a center. They had. If you remember Christmas Day, the Lions were starting Kingsley Guacan at center and frankly, it cost them the entire game versus the Vikings and a fourth rounder and a center to maybe if. If Juice CR play center for them. The lines desperately need a center ever since Frank Ragnar retired I think it makes sense for them, the Texans, I think David Montgomery, Woody Marks, like, I think that makes sense together as a backfield. I agree with you guys on that. It is funny. I do think overall, I think if you look at Houston, Houston saying that the defense is obviously a Super bowl caliber team, like, I mean, Kyle Shannon said the day of the super bowl, the two best defenses that were good enough to win a Super bowl on their own, as long as the offense didn't screw up with Seattle and Houston and they're the best defense in each conference. CG Stroud screwed up in the playoffs and Sam Darnold didn't and so that's fine. The receivers are awesome. Nico Collins and the three Iowa State guys like Jade Higgins and Jaylen Noel. It's a second round pick, a third rounder, Xavier Hutchinson. Now they have David Montgomery, Woody Marks, even the kicker. Kaimi Fairbairn's good. In Houston, Nick Casseroa, the gm, said that replacing CG Stroud would be moronic. So he's not going anywhere. The last thing here is the offensive line for Houston. Sidika, you'd think that Houston would be acquiring offensive lineman, right?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Right. It's been kind of their Achilles heel is the protection issues and the run game issues. But for some reason they keep trading away their offensive lineman.

[Danny Heifetz]

Giving them away, just fire sale.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It reminds me of, I don't know, it's just kind of bizarre because it's obviously such an important need for them. But they keep trading away. And they traded away Titus Howard today to Cleveland for a fifth rounder.

[Danny Heifetz]

The full list is just really quick. They gave away Juice Scruggs in this, in this trade. He was a second round pick a couple years ago. Titus Howard, who was a first round pick for them in 2019, they traded for a fifth rounder today instead of paying him $18 million. He can play every spot but center. They traded Laramie Tunsil for a couple of picks. Like they netted three picks last year and then they traded Kenyon Green last year who was a first rounder for them in 2022. So they've traded four linemen over a long period, but they've traded four linemen that were first or second round picks in like 11 months.

[Danny Kelly]

You know, I'd like to, you know, like to wager some money that the Texans first round pick this year will be an offense.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's a good call. You know what it kind of reminds me of is, is when I bought my house like back in 2017, we were like, oh, we'll just do some cosmetic changes to it. And we needed to make some upgrades to the kitchen because it was from like the 1950s. And then you start taking down the walls and you're like, we need to just take everything down and restart from scratch.

[Danny Kelly]

The deeper you look, the worse it gets.

[Craig Horlbeck]

There's like sort of that old maxim. It's like you don't want to take the walls out in your house because then you start to find what's back there. But it is. It was like a situation where it's like, oh, we took one wall down. They're like, we got to take everything out.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. Like, you don't want to look under the couch because then you got to clean what's under the couch.

[Danny Heifetz]

Right, Exactly. Pick up the cushions to look for something. You're like, gee, look, they're just.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, they're just do it. They're taking the offensive line down to the studs and starting from scratch. Maybe it'll be better, maybe it won't.

[Danny Heifetz]

You say that as a joke.

[Danny Kelly]

Probably can't be worse. I mean, their offensive line has been terrible for so long.

[Danny Heifetz]

You say that as a joke. But Andrew Barry, who's the GM for the Browns, said at the combine that he thought what the Bears did is the model for the offensive line, which is like, yeah, just. Just do the whole thing in one year. And they had the tackles or they really replaced four offensive linemen for Chicago last year. Andrew Barry for the Browns is saying that's the idea. The Houston's kind of probably looking at the same thing. They kind of also probably feeling themselves because they got Aaron Tay Ursary from Houston last year as a second rounder to just start 17 games at left. I think it was left tackle for Houston, which that doesn't usually work. A rookie left tackle in the second round to just play the whole year. But that worked out pretty well for them. So I. I think that's what Houston's thinking. But, yeah, they're just like kind of cashing in. You know, you can trade in the new iPhones for the old iPhones. You get a little discount like that. They're just trading all these old linemen they got, and they're like, we'll get a new one. It's fine. But the Cleveland. I don't want to spend too much time on a offensive lineman, like right tackle turned left guard Titus Howard that got flipped to Cleveland. I think the bigger picture thing here for Cleveland, and again, just to be clear, Cleveland traded a fifth round pick for Titus Howard, who is the left guard for Houston. Cleveland has all. If depending how you count all five starting offensive linemen are free agents. I think they have seven total free agents on offensive line, which is insane. And you have Quinn. Shawn Judkins, the running back for Cleveland, has a broken leg. Like a lot of crazy stuff with this offense. So they're getting Titus Howard. But really, I think the point here is Deshaun Watson's going to start for Cleveland this year. Like he's going to play. And aside from everything that happened with this man off the field, but we haven't even seen him on the field in a while because DeSean Watson, aside from coming back, had the. I believe Austin Gale here at the Ringer kept coming up with these numbers where by almost any metric you looked at the worst offense in Cleveland Browns history was what desean Watson did in the first half of the season.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Cannot be. Cannot be clear enough. Like that is saying something. The worst offense in Brown's history.

[Danny Heifetz]

Like it's actually insane to think about that being true. But it was the first seven games, I believe was the worst seven game period in the history of the Cleveland Browns on offensive efficiency. Then DeSean Watson tours Achilles. Then he tore it again during rehab.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Again, twice.

[Danny Heifetz]

Do it again. And so now he's going to come back from this double Achilles tear and he's probably going to start because he makes $46 million a year. So that's what I'm thinking about when I look at this is Cleveland has to rebuild their entire offensive line just so Deshaun Watson can come back from a double Achilles tear. This is even by Brown standards, this is a crazy team this year, dude.

[Danny Kelly]

When you look at Deshaun Watson, what he's done in the last however long he hasn't played more than seven games in a season since 2020.

[Danny Heifetz]

That's crazy.

[Danny Kelly]

Which is a very long. He hasn't thrown for more than seven touchdowns in a season since 2020. It is. It's shocking. I actually the Browns are. I used to think it was maybe the Jets. I'd want to be the least. Maybe it is the Browns. Talking yourself into fucking Deshaun Watson this year is as grim and low as it gets.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Why don't they just start? Shitter. I'm confused.

[Danny Heifetz]

Pro bowl quarterback Shooter Sanders.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

Why don't they just start? Shador? Well, it'll be a competition. It'll be the most electric competition in August. Sanders versus Sean Watson.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's actually insane. Again, I keep thinking about that Seth Walder Post where he's like, when Shadir Sanders made the Pro Bowl. And he's like, well, Shadur didn't play enough to qualify for ESPN's Total Quarterback Rating, but if he had, he would be last Pro Bowler Shitter Sanders or desean was. Anyway, so the Browns are just, geez, good luck. Yeah. Bless Andrew Barry's heart. Okay, let's get to the combine. There's a bunch of other free agency stuff. We're gonna hit all the free agency stuff as it happens. There's a lot of other news. This could happen. That could happen. We're gonna hit it when it actually happens. Because sometimes the reports that come out are like, just the group chat. Like, all the 32 GMs don't have a group chat. They just do it through the news. And so sometimes they're like, oh, we're gonna cut this guy. And it's like, we're actually trying to trade that guy. So we'll hit everything as they actually happen, I think. Question, please.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I.

[Danny Kelly]

Briefly. I just thought of one question about the Browns and desean really quickly, and then we can continue on with the combine. If the Browns just cut desean Watson, does he get added by a team?

[Craig Horlbeck]

No.

[Danny Heifetz]

Well, I mean, for $46 million, no. But, yeah, he gets signed. Of course he does.

[Danny Kelly]

Like, if the Browns just eat all the money, you're like, we just want to get rid of them.

[Danny Heifetz]

To be clear.

[Danny Kelly]

Team at him.

[Danny Heifetz]

To be clear. We're putting the morality aside. And whatever you think of him, like, as, like. Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

No, not even really. I'm including that because that plays a factor.

[Danny Heifetz]

The Miami Dolphins would sign him? Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

You think so?

[Danny Heifetz]

Yes, I do. Arizona. Dk. You're saying they. What do you mean, they wouldn't sign him?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I kind of think, no. Not worth it. Not worth the trouble.

[Danny Heifetz]

Well, you're saying they should. You're saying 32 teams would decide to not sign him and his career would be over.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Right?

[Danny Heifetz]

You actually think that?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

Like, if the Browns ate all the money and they're just like, we just want him off the team and we'll pay, like, whatever.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Double Achilles injury.

[Danny Kelly]

The Dolphins can sign him for $1 million a year.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Incredible amount of baggage. No, I think he's. He's. I think he'd be done. I think you'd be out of the league.

[Danny Heifetz]

I.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I don't.

[Danny Heifetz]

I. I think.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Look, it's a. It's a hypothetical. You can think one thing. That's fine.

[Danny Heifetz]

Dk. Nothing triggers dk.

[Craig Horlbeck]

What do you want me to say? I think not. You think so?

[Danny Kelly]

I can't tell. It's why I asked the question. I was like, man, if the Brown. I'm like, why don't the Browns just eat the money and get rid of him? And I'm like, would anybody add him?

[Danny Heifetz]

I don't know. I, I, I think yes. I, yes, of course they would. They're all desperate to have a terrible

[Craig Horlbeck]

quarterback who has an incredible amount of off, like, off field baggage. Sure.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, they are. They have no standards. Absolutely. These teams have no standards. The Arizona Cardinals don't give a Stress, struggling.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He sucks at football.

[Danny Kelly]

How can you sell that? What would you say you're the new GM of? You're the two Chads in Miami. And how do you sell to the fan base why you're bringing in Deshaun Watson at least. I mean, as deplorable as it was when the Browns did it, you could argue that he was coming off being a good quarterback still, and you believed he was a good quarter quarterback. What can you say now that what

[Danny Heifetz]

you tell the owner is like, he was worth this a few years ago and he had the injuries and they're like, well, he put him in a system that wouldn't work. And they're like, he wouldn't work in this advancing system. And, and they just be honest and they're like, yeah, we don't really care about the stuff that happened then.

[Danny Kelly]

That's what you tell the fans.

[Danny Heifetz]

You probably, you probably change the message a little. Probably.

[Danny Kelly]

Probably. Probably have to tweak that. Bring in a PR team. Handle that very delicately. Okay. Anyway, that was the hypothetical I wanted to ask, but it's good to know that it seems like there's, There is not a.

[Danny Heifetz]

The fact that you guys even think it's possible that nobody would sign him and that he probably will start for Cleveland says anything. It says everything you need to do.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's, that is the point, actually. Yes.

[Danny Heifetz]

All right, let's get to the NFL combine. Winners and losers. I think there was more. This was a shockingly interesting combine for all the drills and everything and, and the actual results of the testing. And I want to go through winners and losers, but I'm curious if you disagree. Dick. I think, I think the biggest winner of the combine is just speed.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Like, yeah, yeah, there's a crazy, there's some insane times. I mean, I think I can't remember another time where we saw so many four threes and four fours among, like, big players, big human beings, people over

[Danny Heifetz]

200 pounds, large people, ran fast is the theme. And they jumped high. I mean, I could go through, but it really. The Talladega Knights joke, like America's about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed. Like the. I'm just looking at pro football talk. The combine was just, it was the. The word ever is a little cheating because it's like 25 years since 2003 or 1999, depending on count. But the defensive backs as an Overall group, fastest 40 yard dash ever. They all went 4, 4, 4, 44 seconds on average. Wide receivers were also 4, 4, 4. Fastest group ever. It was the fastest 40 yard dash on average for running backs, for linebackers, tight ends, defensive linemen, even offensive linemen. Every single group had the fastest ever.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Everyone was the fastest quarterbacks slow.

[Danny Heifetz]

Merely the second fastest group ever for, for quarterbacks in the 40 yard dash. I, I don't know. DK, will you, will you give us a little Talladega when the cars go by?

[Danny Kelly]

I love when those cars go by. It's a bummer. We didn't stay long enough in Indy for DK to just sit there and watch all the four times and just rattle in his seat. Yeah, just gripping the hand, white knuckling the seat.

[Danny Heifetz]

Kenyan Sadiq's running.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He's like all the, all the silverware is clattering as I'm, you know, dude, so what do we make of this? To me, like, the first thing I think of is like, okay, so all these times are wrong, right? Like there's something going on. Remember a couple years ago when they, they brought in the new guy that was manning the start gun or whatever and then everyone's running 4:2.

[Danny Heifetz]

The guy, the guy in charge of the laser, whatever, retired for after 20 years so that a new guy did it. And we were sitting at the stake of Ruth, Chris, and we were Mike Tomlin, all the Steelers coaches were next to us. Chris Olave ran like he tied the combine record for 40 yard dash. And we were all like, oh, and Mike Tomlin was freaking out. And then it was like he ran like a 4, 3, 4. It's fine. But it did feel like that this year just to go through it. I mean, we don't, I don't have to go through everything right now, but I mean, we got Kenyan Sadiq, the tight end at Oregon, at the fastest 40 yard dash ever for a tight end, depending on account or tied with, you know, Vernon Davis from like 20 years ago. I mean, the amount of people who just had all these records is insane. But I, I don't know. I feel like it's one part guys are actually faster but then it's also one part they're, they're training more for the, for the 40 yard dash. Because for example, fastest 40 yard dash ever. Average time for running backs. I believe one running back though did a three, the, the three cone drill. Like one running back participated I believe. So that is why one guy did it. So that kind of tells you it's like it's just time on task. They're just spending more time training for the 40 and then they're like I'm good. And then I think it's part three is the slower guys stopped doing it.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Right, right, right.

[Danny Heifetz]

And so the, they're like, oh, I'll do it at my pro day, I'll my, the track will be better or whatever and I'll run a little faster, more time to train. So like the slower guys stopped, the faster guys are just spending more time on it. And then the natural progression of athletes getting better.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Is my guess.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yes. I think those are all the variables that are going in. Is it survivorship bias or selection bias, whatever the case is. But only the fast guys are running now basically because the, the actual people that are taking part in the combine is still going down. I feel like this year there was some more big name stars that took, took part and that was cool. But I want to say Arifa San pointed this out. Like the overall participation in the testing is still down year over year by quite a lot.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

So basically it's the fast guys are the ones testing and they're doing well and then everyone else is like no, I'm not going to test because I don't want you to make fun of me.

[Danny Kelly]

I'm not fast so I won't run.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Right. And like Hyphen said, guys are being more specialized. They're not doing the three cone, they're not doing some of the more technical drills that are like harder and probably take more time to train for. And so now when you watch the 40 yard dash, when you watch these guys, their form is ridiculous. It's actually very good. Even like some of these really gangly offensive linemen are getting out of the blocks really fast. And all this so you can tell the training is improved. The athletes, I think generally athletes just improve every year. It just kind of a thing, the training gets better, the health, you know, like the diet, all that stuff is people are just better at it. You got chat GPT, you can ask him what to eat beforehand and all this stuff.

[Danny Kelly]

And there was no One to ask before, right.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No one knew you'd have to look it up. And no one had any Britannica, you know.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. You had no idea if a banana was good for you, bad for you.

[Danny Heifetz]

We didn't know it was tough. That was the 4 NA.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Tongue in cheek, Craig, for the record. But yeah, but also like, maybe did they change the turf and everyone's just fucking faster and bouncier. Because some of the vertical jumps were insane as well. There's like a guy who jumped 45 inches.

[Danny Heifetz]

Dude, the vertical, crazy. The jumping is also out of control. I mean, Sonny Styles is like, I think the first guy to ever be over 240 pounds and hit 43 and a half inch inches.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

For a six foot four or six foot five guy to ever jump 43 and a half inches. I mean, Sonny Styles, linebacker from Iowa State, who. He's the biggest winner of all this.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He was a big star. Yes.

[Danny Heifetz]

I think he's the biggest winner of all this. You could argue he had one of the best combat performance. I can't. We can't talk about Sonny Styles for a long time. We learned he's actually nicknamed after Sonny from the Godfather because he had so many anger issues as a child that they just called him Sonny because he had a temper.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Which could talk about that for a long time. His vertical jump is a foot higher than Bronnie James. Dude.

[Danny Kelly]

His what? What, what was his official vertical?

[Danny Heifetz]

43 and a half inch vertical. Which. And the NBA is very good. No one's at the NBA combine, which is cheating a little because all the elite guys don't do the NBA combine. Really. But I don't think anyone at the NBA combine has had 43 and a half inches in like four years. And he had that as a linebacker.

[Danny Kelly]

That. That's like Anthony Edwards level vertical. I mean, Michael Jordan's was like 47, 48. I mean, he is. This is truly elite territory for an NFL player.

[Danny Heifetz]

He's also. And dk, I want you to talk about this. He's also a fucking 6 foot 5 linebacker. Sonny Styles, I think you could count on one hand how many genuine 6 foot 5 guys have played inside linebacker in the NFL. That's not normal. And. And so you're like, oh, they're big. And he's also this athletic. And so I think Sonny Styles. And you look at him, it's the over. It's one of the better combine performance ever because the physical, like he's so big and he's really fast and he could jump High. And that is kind of the whole point.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yes. I think it's going to push him up even more. I mean, there's talk of people. People are coming out of the combine. People are saying top five is possible. I certainly, certainly think top ten is possible now if, if it wasn't already, especially in a season like this or in a draft like this where there's not a lot of blue chip guys at premium positions. I think his, his. His potential and ceiling is going to push him up and teams are going to get really, really excited about it. By the way, the tape is good too. You know what I mean? It's not like this guy's just a super athletic guy that maybe we can turn him into a good player. Like, his tape was already good. His tackle, his missed tackle rate was minuscule this last year. He has the versatility. Sometimes he lines up on the edge and he rushes. He's like, kind of very. So it's. It's almost strange how similar him and Arvel Reese are.

[Danny Heifetz]

I think he frame Mog d' Orville Reese.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah. Reese had a great combine too, and he got totally overshadowed because Sunny Styles was absolutely just going nuclear on it. But I mean, Sonny Styles was gesture

[Danny Heifetz]

getting so much that he framed Orville re signed being the number two pick.

[Danny Kelly]

Let this die. Let this die.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, we were first and now we're gonna, we're gonna listen.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, that's right.

[Craig Horlbeck]

We're gonna be first step.

[Danny Kelly]

It's cool to leave the party early.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, yeah. Um, but yes, I think he. He was maybe the biggest overall winner just because I think now if someone takes him in the top five, it's not going to be like that big of a deal to. To the general public, probably.

[Danny Kelly]

TK I want to ask you, basically. So there's a lot of these guys who were really fast, a lot of these freak athletes. Is this like the Ian Warrior effect? Is there like an. Is there a type of player that is now more coveted than these, like, tweener types? Like, we were talking at the combine about that guy the Cardinals drafted. Was it something Collins, like five years ago who was like this tweener? Was it Xavan Collins?

[Craig Horlbeck]

The Cardinals is also the Clemson guy

[Danny Heifetz]

from, like, Isaiah Simmons. They.

[Danny Kelly]

Isaiah Simmons, it was like these like 6 3, 6 4, 2, 20 guys that are like, is he a safety? Is he a linebacker? Is he a.

[Danny Heifetz]

Like, what is he on Buchanan?

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. Are we now entering kind of a different era where we want to have these, like, big nickel safety types that are like these Fast tweener safety, linebacker types. Is that a new trend because of what we're seeing from the modern defenses, in your opinion?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I mean, I think it definitely can be, yes. It's like the Mike McDonald sort of family of defenses is going to be copied and, you know, there's going to be. His coaching tree is going to expand over the next few years, basically. And that is sort of. I think the big picture is you have guys that can do a little bit of everything. They can run, they can cover, they can tackle, they can blitz. You never know where pressure is going

[Danny Kelly]

to come from because it's the same on offense. It's like it used to be the best receiver was on the outside and the running back ran the ball and the tight end was slow. And now it's like the tight ends are basically receivers. The best wide receiver on the team is playing in the slot half the time. Jameer Gibbs is basically a wide receiver. So you need these linebackers and safeties and Nichols to be able to cover everybody because everybody on offense is becoming the same thing.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, you need to match the explosiveness that you're seeing on in the skill positions, and I think this is a big part of it. Sonny Styles is. Is really interesting, man. I mean, there were times where he looked legitimate. I took this as kind of like a negative, but I also think it can be framed as a point pointing to his ceiling. Like there were times where he kind of looked bored like. Like this last year where I was like, he. He's like just. He's so fast and rangy and. And long and explosive that there were times where he just didn't even look like he was trying that hard and he was still making the plays. I think his ceiling is. Is absolutely astronomical.

[Danny Heifetz]

And.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And I think Arvl Reese, by the way, still awesome. Still a great prospect.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah. The other. Well, I don't know what to call him.

[Craig Horlbeck]

They're both. They are both guys who. Arvell Reese played basically 50, 50 off ball, linebacker and edge. And I think Sonny Styles splits were slightly more towards linebacker, but he could. He did still get opportunities to kind of come off the edge, I think, but they're. They're very similar elite athletes. Great length, great twitch. I think Arvell Reese is maybe a little bit more wiggle laterally, but you know, man, Ohio State.

[Danny Heifetz]

Ohio State. Ohio State is probably the real winner of the draft because. The real winner of the combine because they're talking about Matt Patricia prepared. They all crushed their interviews, too. And I think Matt Patricia prepared them for their interviews, which I've made fun of him a lot, but he's probably prepared them for their interviews better than other coach teams. Good. So I think Ohio State, all the Ohio State guys are very ease and Sonny Styles in particular the winners. But to that point, about Mike McDonald, to your point, Craig Nick Edmund Warri, who again is the, the safety the Seahawks took in the second round who I think should have won defensive rookie of the year, really like elevated the defense and everything. And I think that that is the key thing to understand about these guys. And Arville Reese and Sonny Styles and Dylan, Dylan Tiananmen from Oregon. Safety the enemy. Oh, it's the enemy. And the overall trend though, it's not that complicated in def. In sports and particularly on defense, you have to be able to do a little bit of everything. As Dica said, in spaces you can't just be like it used to be. In football and in basketball I'm an A at this and I'm a D at this, but I'll be a situational player. And so like if you were in basketball, the Roy Hibbert, right, you're a center, you're seven foot tall, no handle, you can't guard the perimeter. I'm a great protector of the rim, but I can't go out in the three point line. And then NBA, they just started switching everything and so we're going to drag Roy Hibbert down to the space into the deep end. He can't survive out here. They hunted those types of players to extinction. They don't exist anymore. Now all the now all the three, the seven footers can shoot threes because they're the only ones who survived. Football is very same. You used to have linebackers that were giant and hulking, could stop the run but couldn't do the pass. And they'd play on early downs and you'd have smaller guys that were like pass pass defenders or pass rushers, whatever. They play in passing downs and you're an A in one thing, you're D in the other. And guess what? Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVeigh hunted all those defenders to extinction. And so they wanted just like NBA, it's like you actually it's more valuable to be a B in everything than have a D anywhere because they're going to find what you're bad at. Defense is the same thing. The tech. And again, it's not rocket science. There's all the Mike McDonald at his podium at the at the combine said he says frankly, scheme is Overrated. It's about how you play. All the guys in the Houston Texans can fucking tackle. There are no quarterbacks who are better tackling on the Seahawks other than Rick Wolin. And even then, he's a physical crazy. He's crazy talented. There are no defensive backs in the Houston Texans that cannot tackle. Everyone in Seattle, everyone in Houston, they can all stop the run, they can all tackle, and they're all be at everything at a minimum. So the point being, like, that is the overall trend. And as we go through it though, Sonny sty. Like those kind of guys are essential. Sonny Styles has the chance to be an A at everything. Like the ceiling is health, all this stuff. But like, he is what I think everyone is looking for, which is someone who could do everything potentially at an elite level. So I get my question, DK is where do you take a linebacker who might be able to do that? Like, is he at the Giants at 5? Should they take Sonny Styles?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I mean, honestly, again, in this draft, I. If he went third, it probably wouldn't bug me, to be totally honest. I think you don't. Going back over the years, you don't see many linebackers go that high, just off ball linebackers. But I think you could talk yourself into him being, you know, moonlighting off the edge as well with that explosiveness and that length and just the potential to him to get him kind of lined up all over the. All over the field. So, you know what I mean? I think there's actually no. I still think Arvell Reese, probably the number two pick, but you know, coming off of. Coming off of the combine, he definitely got. Sonny Styles definitely got more hype and was in completely overshadowed. Reese, who is a little lighter and a little smaller. So, you know, I. There's no ceiling really, other than I don't think he's going to go first to the Raiders. You know, that's. That's kind of the nature of this draft.

[Danny Heifetz]

Hard to argue. And again, we get positional value. Get all that later. But I want to just reiterate, we made a ton of fun of the combine entering this and we're always like, oh, they ran a 40 with no pads on from a track stance without a football. And then it's like, oh, like we already know they're fast, they have tape. And I want to just point out Mike McDonald said about Nick Em and worry who had the best combine performance last year. He's like, it just forced Mike McDonald to go back and actually look at all his tape with a lot More scrutiny. And he's just watched because they have to watch all these free agents that they're going to sign all these guys. And so it actually forced Mike McDonald. He's like, I. After the combine, I went and watched him way deeper. So, Craig, I wanted to ask you. I. I have a weird theory here, because I don't want to be like, oh, well, these guys had good combines. They're going to be drafted. Now. I think the combine has a lot in common with the for your consideration campaigns for Oscar movies. Okay, because.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Getting mailers.

[Danny Heifetz]

No, but in all seriousness, they set all the voters. They have parties. They meet the actors. They do the stuff. They have campaigns. And it's like, why do you need all this? You. If you're a voter, you saw the movie. Why would anything other than the movie matter?

[Danny Kelly]

It's like, first. Well, first of all, just because you're a voter doesn't mean you saw the movie. That's. That's the whole point is that they are constantly inviting you to screenings where the stars show up, where There's Q&As. They're trying to get these movies in front of people because they don't Some, you know, throwing it on at home with your screener when you're distracted and you're doing other things is not the same as getting you to go to Hamnet, where Jesse Buckley is going to sit down afterwards and do a Q and A.

[Danny Heifetz]

And I think the combine is the exact same thing. And I think that's how I'd frame it where it's like, when Sonny style. Like, I think the next guy, Kenyon Siddiq from Oregon, I want to talk about him.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He's the other side of the coin here. Yeah. You know, he. He's legitimately the schematic inverse to Sonny Styles. What does Sonny Styles solve? He can run with the elite tight ends. He can run with the elite running backs. And now we got Kenyan Sadiq, who's posting. Sorry, I totally interrupted you. He's posting absolutely astronomical. Testing numbers.

[Danny Kelly]

Fastest tight endeavor at the combine.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, depending. But. But no, that's. That's what I was saying, though, is that I think that to your Craig's point, it's the same thing where it's like, the reason that the numbers matter is when they say, oh, it's the fastest titan ever. It's like, oh, did you watch, like, the head coach might have just started this. Like, did you watch Kenyan Snake? Yeah, I watched five games. It's like, all right, well, now I guess I'll watch 11.

[Danny Kelly]

This is how advertising works.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yes.

[Danny Kelly]

Like if he runs a fast 40 time now you have something that you can market.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yes. And I also think it's.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It is. We can't lose track of the fact and that you guys are alluding to this throughout this whole thing. We can't lose track of the fact that we're all human beings. We are susceptible to things. You know what I mean?

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

You're susceptible to hearing that and then you start to anchor that. Oh, he is. This is the fastest tight end we've ever seen at the combine. What could I do with that?

[Danny Kelly]

Dk, is your dog just barking up a storm right now?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, he. Every time we start a podcast, he goes downstairs and starts barking it up.

[Danny Heifetz]

He's like, Sunny Styles is a dog. That's.

[Craig Horlbeck]

If you, if you do a podcast at home, don't buy a great Pyrenees dog because they are just. They just love barking it up.

[Danny Kelly]

Something funny about saying don't buy a dog.

[Danny Heifetz]

That was weird.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I agree.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's for the record, actually.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Buy a dog. We did. We didn't buy him. We adopted him. He was, he was a rescue.

[Danny Heifetz]

You can buy a dog, but no, it says that. Do they. That's the joke you get.

[Danny Kelly]

You get a dog, you don't buy

[Danny Heifetz]

one, but you do. Well, the joke we always make is that like every dog owner sometimes like either adopted or you're like, oh, I went. I paid $7,000 for a golden doodle that was raised on a farm in North Carolina and the cat owners are like I found mine in a garbage can.

[Craig Horlbeck]

If it's your. Your cat literally had his ear bitten off because he was living in.

[Danny Heifetz]

No, they clipped the ear because it's like a community cat thing. It means he been like vaccinated and doesn't have anti vax cat. That's what the clippings for.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Do you want me to yell at my dog?

[Danny Kelly]

No, no, I like it.

[Danny Heifetz]

People have dogs. People have heard dogs. It's fine, keep it. Keeping it. It's so good. But the wait. Last thing on Sunny Styles is did you see Kyle Hamilton? They did a side by side numbers and Sonny Styles and Kyla Hamilton did quote tweet it and said I got brutally frame mogged.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Brute the love. I like the brutally throwing in that brutally frame mocked.

[Danny Heifetz]

It is crazy that he's.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It was brutal.

[Danny Kelly]

Perfect use of it.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah. That is what. But the fact that he's 25 pounds heavier than Kyle Hamilton, he's an inch taller, he ran pretty decently faster than the 40 and he's six inches higher in the vertical. Just these more explosive athlete, bigger, faster and good to play linebacker. I just kind of can't get over it for Sonny Styles.

[Danny Kelly]

Dk, do you think, do you think freak athletes benefit more on the defensive side than the offensive side? There's a lot of offensive players like Puka, Nakuas and I don't know, a lot of the best offensive players are not like the biggest freaks. I'm on Ross St. Brown or what even JSN to a degree. Is it harder? But, but you're like, you know, but they know how to play, they know what they're doing, they're good, they're savvy. Is that harder to identify on defense and is it easier to just be like, give me the freak?

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's a great question. I think my, my initial reaction is yes, it's probably easier to coach up and develop a freak athlete on the defensive side of the ball than offensive side. Just because, I mean that's, there's a reason they call them skill players on offense. Like there's a lot of, you have to catch the ball, you have to run routes, you have to be really savvy in terms of identifying the coverages that you're going to be able to exploit. You have to have chemistry with the quarterback. There's so many different things. I think this is super generalized because you have to have skill on defense also. You have to have instincts and play with anticipation, tackling and all that stuff. There's certainly skills on that side of the ball. But I do think, I mean, some of the best pass rushers in the NFL are just the, the freakiest athletes. Right? So I think there is probably a stronger correlation there on the defensive side of the ball where you could coach up a, a guy on defense and turn him into something. And I think that's kind of actually apt with the em and worry thing. The em and worry effect is something we talked about coming into this draft, coming into this combine, I should say. And his tape in college wasn't like elite and there's a reason he went in the second round, you know what I mean? There was some issue, there were some concerns about his stiffness in terms of turning, changing directions and going backwards. He was, I think, thought of as more of a guy who's going to be a robber and come downhill and play downhill, not necessarily be a back end safety. So there were some reasons that he didn't have higher draft capital coming into the, coming into the draft last year and Mike McDonald was able to kind of like identify the strength that he has and like put him in a place where he can be an absolute game changer for the season.

[Danny Kelly]

Well, I was going to say that there's nature versus nurture here too. Right. Like, do you think if even worry goes to a team that's terrible, like, and I mean defensive side, they have a bad defensive roster.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

Do you think that changes how, how his rookie season went? Is it, was it way easier for him that he could step into the, to a great defensive team and kind of just do what he needs to do and that's it, not have to compensate for the lack of whatever else is around him?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I think so. Yeah, I think so. I mean look at the Seahawks defensive line. Seahawks defensive line was one of the best in the NFL. Their ability to, you know, take on blocks, create pressure, force the, force the quarterback to get rid of the ball a little bit quicker. There's all these different variables. They all, you know, all these guys are connected, I think. Yes, absolutely. The fact that he had, you know, Witherspoon playing opposite him or next to him at times was like a huge factor. There's so many variables that go into that. And yeah, dropping a, it's like a, it's not, it's different. This is different. But dropping like a good running back or into, or an elite running back into a already good team makes that, that guy that much better because he's got good blocking. You know, all this other thing, all these other things. Good quarterback. I do think it matters, which again just kind of makes the evaluating guys in the draft so impossible because like not only do we have to decide whether they're good or not is like where are they going to land and what players are they going to be playing around.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. So you could work here. Might be a disaster here.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Totally, totally.

[Danny Heifetz]

That's why I, I joke about this every year. But we should just evaluate the prospects all over again now that they where they've landed because it's just as important.

[Danny Kelly]

Totally go as, you know, imagine we just like February start over, we're just chilling and then they get drafted and then talk about it.

[Danny Heifetz]

That makes more sense. It probably does. Winner, the other winning. But we mentioned Kenya Sadiq. So he's the tight end from Oregon. He's 6 foot 3, he's 241 pounds, he ran a 4, 3 9, 40 yard dash. So it's the fastest 40 yard dash ever for a tight end. And the stat that went around all social media was just that he hit this. Kenyan Sadiq hit the same top speed during his 40 yard dash as Jameer Gibbs did, which is 23 0.2 miles per hour.

[Danny Kelly]

That's wild but unbelievable.

[Danny Heifetz]

But the point is that Sadiq is 42 pounds heavier than Jameer Gibbs. So if you go, I think of

[Craig Horlbeck]

Gibbs is like the fastest player.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Right now.

[Danny Heifetz]

And so he's 42 pounds heavier and obviously crazy. The heavier you are, the hardest it is to go fast. So the speed score, which is a not very complicated formula, but it's basically accounting for how heavy you are. Because Xavier, were they breaking the 40 yard dash record? Well, Brian Thomas running through the same year, the 40 yard dash having almost the same speed where he's 30 pence heavy is more impressive. So Kenyon Sadiq is in the 100th percentile obviously for tight end like speed score, but by so much because again, he's fucking 241 pounds and had the fastest 40 yard dash for a tight end ever. Like that's insane.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He also had an outstanding vert and broad jump. He's third all time in combine history in vertical and then. Or sorry, in broad jump and then his vertical was 43 and a half which is second most.

[Danny Heifetz]

So DK, would you say he's athletic?

[Craig Horlbeck]

He is. This is going to be an interesting one. Hopefully he doesn't suck or else my whole athletic argument is going to kind of crumble in front of my eyes.

[Danny Heifetz]

How good is Kenyan Sadiq and where would a team have to take it? Like, who's the first team that takes Kenyan Sadiq that you're like, oh, it's too early. Like if Washington took Kenyan Sadiq with the seventh pick, you'd be like, I don't know.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, I mean I wouldn't like judge it harshly because I think adding a player like him would make sense in their offense.

[Danny Kelly]

And how good is he? Like how good. I know he's fast, he can jump and all that stuff.

[Danny Heifetz]

Is he good at football?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, I already thought he was good. I think he, he is undersized. 6, 3, 2, 41, which is not quite as, as big as some of the quote unquote like prototypical tight ends in the NFL. But the 240 pound range is actually where I think the NFL is going with tight ends. I mean, if you look at like Trey McBride, the guy from the Lions whose name is escaping Florida, there's, there's all these other guys that are kind of in that range now coming out of, out of college football where they can do a little bit of everything. They're, they're serviceable as blockers. They may not be gronk, but they're serviceable as blockers. They can utilize, they can be utilized in the screen game in terms of getting them out into space and blocking in the screen game. I think that's, that is what Sadiq, he's, he's to me a pretty good blocker who also has rare athletic traits and could be developed in the passing game. I think, you know, he had some, he had some real moss moments where he was like going up and, and taking the ball away from guys at the catch point. But he also had a couple drops. Like he's not a perfect prospect by any means. I don't think he's like the best tight end prospect we've seen lately. He's not as good in my mind as Bowers or some of these other guys from recent years, but I think he's a pretty darn good prospect and the athleticism is off the charts. Good. So I think the, the ceiling is there for him to be a three down linebacker. They're not going to have to take him off the field when they want the ball. Sorry, what I say linebacker, yeah, tight end.

[Danny Heifetz]

He probably could play linebacker.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Honestly. Sure. I don't think that he's, he's not the type of guy they have to take off the field when they want to actually block. You know what I mean? So he's not going to be like this Kincaid type of player where he's being draft drafted only as a receiver.

[Danny Heifetz]

On that note, I want to ask you about the other tight end who is Eli Stowers. And I, I thought it was Stowers but I'm pretty sure it's Stowers like flowers the tight end from Vanderbilt. And feel free to correct me on that, but I'm pretty sure. So he's 6 foot 4, 239 pound. He ran a 4540 yard dash. But his vertical, he jumped 45 inches vertically which to Craig's point, 45 and a half. It's pretty good.

[Danny Kelly]

That is, I can't tell you how high that is. That is like elite NBA vertical. Craig.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's, it's the most in combine history.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, it's. No one's ever jumped all players again.

[Danny Kelly]

That would be all time in the NBA. Like that is really pushing the limits of what like humans can do.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's crazy. I mean he, it's almost four feet. Like that's crazy. And he's six foot four. He also had the broad jump. His. He jumped 11ft, which. Think about that. Jumped 11ft. Like, that's crazy. And so he's 100th percentiled. All this stuff, all the outrageous testing. I have to say though. So it's a classic insane athlete. He was at Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt's a weird football program because they were like the Indiana of the sec and then now they're like, well, he was at three.

[Danny Kelly]

He went to A and M and then New Mexico, the dk.

[Danny Heifetz]

I'm really curious you think here. I'm not trying to say anything about Eli Stowers in particular. In particular. But I don't know what to do with this position because I don't think anyone thinks Eli Stowers is good at blocking. Like, it's the nicest thing you could say is he needs to develop.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Just make him a receiver.

[Danny Heifetz]

Well, that's my question. I think when you look at numbers

[Craig Horlbeck]

are elite at receiver.

[Danny Heifetz]

When you look at the athletic profile, I think you look at this guy at Stowers from Vanderbilt and you're like, well, a crazy athlete, definitely an NFL player disappeared during some of the harder defenses that they had to play. Like, he probably. I think he dominated a little bit more versus their easier opponents. But when it's like Bama or Georgia or Florida, I don't think he was quite as good. But I feel like it's like, oh, Eli Stowers, look at this numbers first rounder. I wouldn't want my team to take him. What are we gonna do with a receiving tight end who can't really block but someone should? And I'm like, what is the value of this position of like a way more athletic Evan Ingram that I just feel like this player is not the kind of player I want in the NFL right now. Like, if you get block and you're not an elite receiver as a tight end, like, I don't how. What am I going to do with you?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I know. Well, it is truly. And again goes back to what we were just saying. It depends where he lands. Like, what kind of offense are they going to be running with him? Is he basically a de facto slot receiver? Because I'm into that. Like, I'll be really excited about that. If they're trying to turn him into a traditional inline tight end, it might take a really long time. And I think we see this kind of a lot. It's like why tight ends kind of a slow developing position is, you know, these guys are coming into the NFL, they got to learn how to block. They got to learn how to be a de facto offensive lineman in a lot of cases. If he lands with a team that's just going to be like, look, we know that your skill set is as a receiver only and we're going to like let you just go be a slot receiver.

[Danny Heifetz]

So he's like a Monroe St. Brown or something.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Thing is it, I mean, I'm like Harold Fannin or something like that where you're, you're just utilizing me in the passing game. Screens, slants, things like that, where you're not asking him to be a, a blocker that much. I think that's where he could really shine. But yeah, it just depends where he lands.

[Danny Heifetz]

He's probably gonna land like 40ft away because he can jump so freaking high.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Like, think about like how the, the Chargers use Gadsden around a Gadsden this year where he was like essentially just a big receiver. But again, it's like, how often are you going to be on the field? Are they going to have him on the field enough to have him be a useful fantasy option? Because there's a lot of quote unquote, like pass catching move tight ends that just don't play enough. It's like the Isaiah likely thing. Or just trying to think like Chicka Quango where you're constantly mesmerized by their upside in terms of, well, if this guy played 75 of snaps, he'd be elite. But a lot of these teams are just going to draft these guys and then play them like 40 snaps.

[Danny Heifetz]

This just felt like the point of Moneyball. It was like that, like that scene in Moneyball where they're like, oh my God, think about how good of a hitter this guy could be. Look at his ass. And he's like, we're not selling jeans here. And I'm like, like he could jump again. Oh, are you gonna play him? Yeah, like half. Yeah, sure.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I'm like, yeah, that's, that's the question.

[Danny Heifetz]

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[Craig Horlbeck]

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[Danny Kelly]

Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck

[Craig Horlbeck]

and the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person.

[Danny Kelly]

You probably know one. Your buddy your sister ones who always show up they're the first to rise,

[Danny Heifetz]

the last to leave.

[Craig Horlbeck]

They always have that little extra something

[Danny Kelly]

and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet together let's drive Visit chevy.com truck to explore the lineup.

[Danny Heifetz]

The other winner here I think we have to it's Jeremiah Love, the running back from Notre Dame. We it was fun to actually have great the great players actually participate in the combine. I mean DK this is obviously number one running back. Everyone's number one running back but he's 6 foot 212 pounds 4364 yard dash for Jeremiah Love. Second fastest of any running back this year but faster than Saquon Barkley or Christian McCaffrey, Jonathan Taylor, Bijan Robinson in the 40 yard dash and just the perfect mix of insanely productive against why Notre Dame schedule probably kept him out of the College Football Playoff. But like he's been insanely productive for Notre Dame for two years and is also just was runs very fast. I don't know I feel like he's probably would have been a higher prospect than Ash and Genti last year. Like Jeremiah Love probably would have been drafted ahead of Genty last season.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I think that that is a good question. I would love to see that play out because I I feel like I still would have Genti slightly higher. I'd have him in a slightly higher

[Danny Kelly]

tier but it feels like Genti was more of a phenomenon. I think like his highlights were more he was a more viral style runner.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I think Genti has more wiggle and more tackle breaking prowess. But Love is probably closer to what the NFL actually needs in terms of his passing game ability. His ability to kind of like line up and run routes and win on one on ones. He has that home run hitting potential that I don't know if Genti was known quite as much for. So yeah he would just like get

[Danny Heifetz]

singles and bulldoze through all the infielders for it inside the park.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Also Notre Dame against Boise State like NFL team is probably going to take Notre Dame. You know what I mean Just because of the the history there and the competition.

[Danny Kelly]

Mountain west underrated. No, you're right.

[Craig Horlbeck]

But yeah. So yeah I would have loved to see how that happened. I'm guessing yeah, you're right. Probably. You're probably right. I was like Love probably would have gone higher in last year's draft.

[Danny Heifetz]

We DK we had an argument about this and it's before we had our coffee so we stopped because I thought it was it was going to go ugly Craig, you weren't down here for this. You were dealing with some Netflix 80 billion dollar deal. Episode of the Town with Matthew Bellamy. Highly recommend by the way. Great.

[Danny Kelly]

111 billion now, right?

[Craig Horlbeck]

11 billion.

[Danny Kelly]

A lot, a lot to make movies.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's a lot of money. That's so many billions. That's crazy. We couldn't agree where Jeremiah Love was going to go in the draft. And like I think the ceiling we probably agree roughly is like The Giants at 5 feel like the highest team that would take Jeremiah Love even if he might be the highest player graded player in team sport. The Raiders are going to take Mendoza. I don't think the jets tagged Free tall. They're not going to take a running back. The Cardinals I don't think are going to take a running back. The Titans probably take a running. But the Giants are the first team I think might. DK and I had no agreement whatsoever on where the floor was. And I'm curious, Craig, I don't know the best way to do this maybe, but the Browns are at 6, Washington's at 7. Then there's like old school. Saints are at 8. I could see that happening. Chiefs are at 9, peop. I don't. People see that could happen. Bengals as old school as it gets. And the disagreement because DK was wondering could he fall to 18 or 19 or 20? And on one hand I see what he's saying. On the other hand I'm like, if he's the number one graded player in team sports, I feel like he could go to a surprising team. Bengals at 10, Dolphins at 11, Cowboys are at 12, Rams at 13, Ravens at 14, Bucks at 15. I'm like, is Bucky. Sorry, is Jeremiah Love really going to fall like 16?

[Craig Horlbeck]

He's probably going to go top 10. I thought about it. I thought about it more.

[Danny Kelly]

There is a gap between 9 and 18. Like I think if he gets past Kansas City at 9, he probably won't get drafted until 18 plus at Minnesota because I think all of those teams don't need running backs or have other plans. But I, I probably agree with you. I think, I feel like every year that there's a kind of superstar outlier running back like this. The same, we have the same conversations. Well, you can't. You don't want to draft a running back too early. It never works out. And then you know what, somebody drafts the running back in the top 10. Like when is the last time the generational running back went 23rd?

[Danny Heifetz]

Also all these guys who hated nerds and hated the running back argument were like, look, you idiots. The running, like running the ball came back around. Like they all feel right.

[Danny Kelly]

So I feel like he's not getting past Kansas City at 9.

[Danny Heifetz]

I think the floor is Cowboys at 12. I think the cowboy like the idea that 12, because there's only considered 12, first, 11 first round grades or whatever. The idea that a player that would be at worst your third highest graded player at some point. I hope boards mean something because we talk about fucking boards with teams for four months. At some point, if he's your highest rated player on a board and then he falls to 12th, then what are we even doing? You know what I mean? So I. But I don't. But it's an interesting question, dk, because that is what might happen. Where do you think he should go? Like if you were somehow running all these teams, where is the right place to take a running back? Because we always talk about, well, you should do it when you have the offensive line in place. Yeah, it's the cherry on top.

[Danny Kelly]

We got an argument on the way to dinner. I think it was Thursday night about if you should go to the Chiefs or not.

[Danny Heifetz]

I vehemently think.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, no, no, no. Yeah. The, the argument that we got into, would it be cool? Who's the coolest team that he could go to? And Craig and I think were initially just like Chiefs and then hyphens is like this is the boringest.

[Danny Kelly]

We just keep having conversations about what's cool with Kansas City.

[Danny Heifetz]

You know what I think? I think here's my issue.

[Danny Kelly]

Is Mahomes cool? Would love going there. Be cool.

[Danny Heifetz]

Here's. Well, the cool. No, not just the cool. It's the Chiefs. I think we, we had this insight during the season that in season, Danny Kelly would hate. Off season Danny Kelly, like they wouldn't get along. They don't agree on anything. And like I think that Craig, you have a little bit of this too. I think Craig is severed. I'm severed. You are severed. Craig has for four years, all he's done is talk about how much he hates watching the Chiefs offense every week. Greg has probably mentioned 60 times over the last.

[Craig Horlbeck]

They're running cream hunt out there because

[Danny Kelly]

they need good players, they need exciting players.

[Craig Horlbeck]

So.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yes. But if you add one exciting player

[Craig Horlbeck]

just runs into the back of his blockers.

[Danny Heifetz]

So how's that the coolest place Jeremiah Love could go? Because it's Mahomes ACL and a bunch

[Craig Horlbeck]

of Reed and Patrick Mahomes.

[Danny Heifetz]

That's not the coolest place he could Go like if you look at all

[Danny Kelly]

these other teams, what do you want me to say? The fucking Chargers. Like he's not going to go there. Like it would be cool if he was there, but it's not going to happen. Within reason.

[Danny Heifetz]

I think the Cowboys are much cooler than the Chiefs and they're two. They're two picks away, three picks away. The Cowboys having a legit offensive line. CD Lamb, franchise Tech pick into Dak. I think that's the coolest place he could go.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, that's cool too. I agree. I think that is.

[Danny Heifetz]

But you seen the team, I think

[Danny Kelly]

on the scale on the spectrum of, you know, on the. Out of every NFL team where he could land, the Chiefs, to me, of a team that could actually draft him are closer to the attend on the cool scale than a one. I mean, what are we talking about? Even if it doesn't make sense for them, the Chiefs, Patrick Mahomes having an elite player on the team is cool. Would you rather Tyree Kill on the Chiefs was cool. Travis Kelsey on the Chiefs was cool. Jeremiah Love on the Chiefs would be cool.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Just to continue the Mahomes Burrow thing. Not for Bengals fans, not for Chiefs fans, not for the teams, for our sake. For the purpose of the NFL being popular and like us creating content.

[Danny Kelly]

Okay.

[Danny Heifetz]

Would you rather Jeremiah Love go to the Bengals and be with Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase and T. Higgins, or would you rather Jeremiah Love go to the Chiefs because they're. They pick nine and 10 back to back. Chiefs are nine, Bengals are 10.

[Craig Horlbeck]

DK chiefs, same.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, because it's like too many teams

[Craig Horlbeck]

are interesting, but the fan base, Bengals also.

[Danny Kelly]

I don't trust the Bengals.

[Danny Heifetz]

I, you know, it's so funny. I, I feel like I've been defending the Bengals all off season because everyone's like, well, you don't. You got to put an offensive line around Joe Burrow. I'm like, they shelled out like $400 million for all the players Joe Burrow asked for. If they had let T. Higgins go, we'd be saying, they're so cheap, you won't. If they put that money to offensive line and signed Dan Moore Jr. To play left tackle, we'd be like, you're too cheap to get bring T. Higgins back. They brought Chase back. They brought T. Higgins back. Joe Burrow asked for fucking Mike Kosicki. They brought him back too. They did everything he asked for. And everyone's like, you don't do anything for Joe Burrow. I'm like, get out of Here they just spent more money than they ever spent. I don't even know if they spent that much money to buy the fucking team. I don't know. What are they supposed to do?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Real quick, getting back to the, the argument that Heifers and I had about where to put Jeremiah Love in the mock drafts. Part of the, part of the process that I, I truly try to put myself into the minds of the teams as they're going along and like, what is going to be the most valuable pick we can make here? What, what are some of the holes? First of all, number one teams don't always fill their biggest need with their first round pick. That's not how it works. Sometimes there's weird picks or. No, every time, every draft are a bunch of weird picks. So it's not always like, oh, this knee, this guy feels the need. It's. They, it is who they think is the highest drafted player. But that being said, if I'm putting myself in the minds of the Cardinals, if they take a running back at three, that is so stupid to me. That doesn't solve any of your problems. It's, it just doesn't make any sense. We're, we're, we're learning the wrong lesson. We're taking the wrong lessons from some of these teams that in the past with like the success they've had at running back. I mean, look at what the Raiders did. They took a running back and now they're picking first. So I, I do try to put myself in the minds of these teams and in these decision makers and I'm like, if I'm the Cardinals, I'm absolutely not taking a running back. Even if he's my top graded player. Sorry.

[Danny Kelly]

Spin zone, spin zone. Look at the Raiders. You drafted Astin Genty.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Maybe you want to be first.

[Danny Kelly]

And now you have, and now you have your franchise quarterback and your franchise running back. Maybe the Cardinals take Jeremiah Love suck with Jacoby Brissette and the next year draft class, great quarterbacks. Now you have Arch Manning and Jeremiah Love in 2027. Congratulations.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I mean, it's like the Producers 4D chest. Sure, I guess. Like you could do it that way. I don't think people think the producers.

[Danny Heifetz]

No one will see that. Exactly.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I mean Pete Carroll, Pete Carroll took freaking Genti and then he got fired. So I don't know. I, I think I do agree with you though. Like in this draft class it's like this is going to be a refrain that we say like for everything. But in this draft class he could Go really high. He could go three or four.

[Danny Heifetz]

The other part with the Jeremiah Love

[Danny Kelly]

thing is why couldn't Tennessee take him? I don't, I don't see why that's not gonna happen.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, you're right. That probably same reason.

[Danny Kelly]

But like Tennessee, at least you feel a little bit better about the offensive line. You have your quarterback. There's. There are no good skill players on Tennessee. Like as good, as cool as I think Elik IO Mannerism and Calvin, like they need a cool player to like score touchdowns and pick up yards on this team. Jeremiah Love.

[Danny Heifetz]

That's fair.

[Danny Kelly]

I guess it could go help that team.

[Danny Heifetz]

If the Titans took Jeremiah Love, I think it would be really surprising. But you're right, it probably wouldn't be stunning. Like they need good. Who.

[Danny Kelly]

Who is getting the ball in Tennessee that we feel good about?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Okay.

[Danny Heifetz]

I just, I just reject the idea that you needed. I think when there's defensive ends that high, I think generally speaking, you're just. It's just harder to find those guys in the round on round two and three, that is running backs and receivers. But I do think to the Jeremiah Love conversation, and I want to talk about this next guy, Mike Washington Jr. The running back from Arkansas, who. I mean, 6 foot 1, 220 pounds. He ran a 4, 3, 3, 40 yard dash, which considering he's over 220 pounds, one of the best times ever. Again, 100% on speed score.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Best speed score ever.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah. He had the fastest 40 yard dash of any running back this year. And he's £220. Which again, Devon HN ran a pretty similar time. Like 4:2:8 versus £433.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

£35 fewer pounds or whatever. He weighed it like, like that's insane. It's basically the same thing. And it was actually a really nice moment. Like Mike Washington kind of like broke down like two hands covering his face, crying.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

And then he apologized on NFL Network and he was like, I'm sorry, I'm emotional. I just worked for this my whole life. And it was like really sweet. And you're like. And I do think that's the larger conversation too is like those fringe guys getting moved up is the bigger thing. But I think this is similar to the Jeremiah Love conversation because it's a huge gap between Jeremiah Love and these other running backs. Last year, dk, how many guys were projected to be like, maybe starting level running backs? Like eight or nine. Yeah. Like we ended up with 10.

[Danny Kelly]

And the Steelers picked the one guy who wasn't. Yes.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yes. Quite. Yes, yes, you did.

[Danny Kelly]

But the I'll get you Omar Khan. I'm coming. You tell them I'm coming.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I bring it hell with me.

[Danny Heifetz]

But I think that's why you saw David Montgomery trade today, is because teams have to go and get a running back. Because I know that draft one, that,

[Craig Horlbeck]

that is the, that's the read between the lines, like thing that happened today. Like the Texans giving up two picks and a player to go get a run like a 28 year old running back. To me, the first thing I thought I was like, oh God, this, they hate this, this running back group. Like they're, you know, this is why Ken Falker's probably going to get paid really well. Breece hall is getting franchised. There's basically one good like elite running back in this class that's Jeremiah Love. And then there's a lot of guys. There's a, there's a lot of Jags, just a guys. And I, I don't know, maybe Mike Washington can be better. The thing that I kind of thought about with Mike Washington, look, I think he, he'll probably go like third round. I think the speed is legit. You can see the speed on tape, which is important. It's not just a guy who run runs really fast in the 40. You can see the speed on the field. But you know, he's a fifth year guy who's got, he's now on his third school. This is the first year that he kind of produced big time numbers. The thing that kind of came to my mind is there's, there's an Instagram account that is like, is this a good fit or is this guy just hot? You know, and it's like, is he, is he stylish or just hot? And I don't know if he's actually good or if he's just fast. There's a lot of really fast guys that are, don't turn out to be any good. Like Isaac Garrendo, Jalen Wright, Isaiah Pacheco. I guess he was better than people expected. So maybe he's not the best example. But there's a lot of fast guys that don't turn out to be very good. You know what I mean?

[Danny Heifetz]

That's a great call because it is kind of like the hardest part of buying clothes online because you go to the store and it's like a mannequin and it's faceless and you picture yourself in it. Online, there's no mannequins. You just have really hot people wearing the clothes. And you're like, how would this look on me?

[Danny Kelly]

Well, even the mannequin stuff, because the mannequin is built like an NBA player, right?

[Danny Heifetz]

Well, mannequin looks good.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Mannequin is also kind of hot.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I wish I had that mannequin.

[Danny Kelly]

I'm getting frame mog by the mannequin. God damn.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Brutal.

[Danny Heifetz]

Frame, come out, look at the mirror. You're like, this is nothing like what

[Danny Kelly]

it looks, you know, like, show me a sword that has a mannequin with a beer gut. That's what they need.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I know, right?

[Danny Kelly]

I show me a mannequin with man boobs. I want to see a mannequin with. With a little junk in it.

[Danny Heifetz]

Should we open a store called Beer Gut?

[Danny Kelly]

Real mannequin.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I'm sure we wouldn't be the first real mannequin.

[Danny Kelly]

This is a real mannequin.

[Danny Heifetz]

Wait, you should what a real man looks like another idea. Someone's gonna steal another billion dollar.

[Danny Kelly]

Just saying.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Cut that out. Cut that out.

[Danny Heifetz]

Cut that from the show. Real mannequin. Wait, what does the store look like? What do we sell?

[Danny Kelly]

What do you mean, what do we sell? We sell. We sell clothes for dads.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Can't be in a mall, though, because dads don't like going to the mall.

[Danny Kelly]

It's. It's attached to a Home Depot.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yes. Oh, my God, those parking lots are so big. And there's always a strip mall behind.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's like, whatever the spirit Halloween is by the Home Depot. Like, we just do that.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's out by the. It's out by the garden center.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, your first pair of cargo shorts is free. Gets you in, and then you're. And then you're hooked.

[Danny Heifetz]

You know, I learned. Hooked. I learned that the. The garden center at Home depot brings in $18 billion of revenue a year, which is more than, like, the lvmh. Like, like the luxury, like, Hermes, Louis Vuitton conglomerate that's worth.

[Danny Kelly]

How much does the NFL make a year like that?

[Danny Heifetz]

Like, 20. Like, 8, 22 billion. And the flower. The flower section makes 18 billion in revenue a year.

[Danny Kelly]

I can't decide if flowers are the biggest scam in American history or if flowers are really nice.

[Danny Heifetz]

Dude, Valentine's Day. Did you guys get flowers on Valentine's Day? It is.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Every year. I'm just like, what did I get?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Flowers?

[Danny Kelly]

Like, did you buy flowers for your loved one?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yes, I did.

[Danny Kelly]

I did. You know what I mean with flowers? Like, I mean, at a wedding, dude, the Budget for flowers. It's just like it's. Flowers are out of control.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh, I was wrong. It's $20 billion. It's Wall Street Journal. $20 billion in the garden section. Home Depot, like last year.

[Danny Kelly]

Is there a worse bang for your buck than flowers? They would be dead in a week,

[Danny Heifetz]

dude, Jackie's Valentine's flowers are downstairs. I'm still putting. Pouring water in them. They're actually cooked. But either.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Here's the deal.

[Danny Kelly]

Starting to smell bad.

[Danny Heifetz]

I paid so much money for those things, I will not throw them away.

[Danny Kelly]

It's like there's no worse bang for your buck than flowers. Even though in the moment, tremendous bang for your buck.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh, yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

Like, it hits so hard but depreciates so quickly. It's like a car. The second you drive it off the line, it's fucking ruined.

[Danny Heifetz]

Right? Dude, email us about flowers. Ring your fantasy football gmo.

[Craig Horlbeck]

What can we. What can we change? What could we use instead of flowers that would be more useful? Like. Like a little step ladder for in the home.

[Danny Heifetz]

That.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That seems pretty useful. You're using that all the time.

[Danny Heifetz]

Get your wife a step ladder.

[Danny Kelly]

Get your wife a step ladder. Everything. Every valley.

[Craig Horlbeck]

My point. No, I'm not. Obviously not going to do that. My point is, like, what could we replace that's more actually useful and will last?

[Danny Kelly]

The question is, is it about the flowers or is it about the gesture? Because if. If you had a garden in your backyard that had beautiful flowers and on Valentine's Day, all you had to go do was go to the backyard, pick a nice bouquet and hand it to your wife and does that hit as hard? Probably not.

[Danny Heifetz]

I. Well, did you grow them or did she. If you're cutting her flowers, then no. If you grew the garden, that's more meaningful. But if she just did all the work and you went out and plucked them and made a little.

[Danny Kelly]

Certainly that. But even if, like, if you just have a. If you're just like a gardener and. And you just go to the backyard and give your wife flowers every Valentine's Day from the backyard. I don't know if it hits as hard. Yeah, it's about. It's about going out of your way and spending the money and like the gesture, the thought.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, email us.

[Danny Kelly]

I think.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I don't know.

[Danny Kelly]

I don't know what women.

[Danny Heifetz]

We'll have a good alternative. At Mannequin. We're going to sell. We're going to sell some great stuff at Mannequin. Real Mannequin. We're going to sell. Yeah, we'll have a whole section for you know what? We're instead of an express checkout, like the supermarket, 12 items or less. We're going to have a you forgot what day it is thing. Like you forgot it's your wife's birthday. You forgot it's your anniversary. And like you're going to have an express line for men who are like honor system. I really very quickly, yeah, we'll sell

[Danny Kelly]

cheap flowers and what's nice is then on the bill it'll say Home Depot so the wife won't really think that your last second panic buying some flowers.

[Danny Heifetz]

Trader Joe's sells flowers. Very reasonable price because it's like a loss leader for them. It's like the roast chickens.

[Danny Kelly]

Also, I'll let Trader Joe's produce. I feel like 48 hours gone.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's not, it's not the strength.

[Danny Kelly]

It's affordable because it's like already halfway through its life cycle.

[Danny Heifetz]

They bought it from the other stores.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, it's like grocery outlet too.

[Danny Heifetz]

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[Craig Horlbeck]

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[Craig Horlbeck]

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[Danny Heifetz]

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[Danny Kelly]

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[Danny Heifetz]

Anyway, other Combine guys were definitely the first people to go from this to Dylan Theaniman, which is the.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I thought it was. I don't know.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's the. Yeah, it's the safety from Oregon. This guy is the man.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

I know I've talked a lot about Caleb Downs from Ohio State, but dk, I want you to cook with Dylan Theatim in here because the safety from Oregon, I feel like he's also going to be like a first round pick and maybe a top 20 pick.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, I mean, yeah. It's looking like that. So first of all, I really like the tape. I mean he's, he's one of those guys that kind of plays all over the field. They can play him in the deep half, they can play him in the slot overhang, you know, de facto linebacker. He's really instinctive. He has good ball skills. There's good ball production there in terms of picks and just showing his ability to anticipate where the ball is going. He rangy, good tackler. There's, it's, there's very few things I don't like about him and he's any. And then he went and did this at the combine where he ran a 43540, 97th percentile, 41 inch vert, 95th percentile for safeties. So the athleticism, it just matches everything that you saw on the tape. Yeah, I, I love this guy. I think he, he has like top 15 potential. I, in fact, the team picking at 15 is. Or I guess it's the Buccaneers. I was thinking the Vikings are picking at 18. I had him go into the Vikings. I think he could even go higher than that too.

[Danny Heifetz]

Dude, I think Dylan Thieman is phenomenal. I honestly, he reminds me, I think he's Kirkland Brand, like Minka Fitzpatrick. I think he's fantastic. I think that he can do so many different things on defense. And again, it's what we were saying before of like, you need to be able to do everything. And I actually think playing the Lions is actually maybe a good like instructive point of like imagine if you're playing the Lions, you need a guy, get you a man who can do both. Can you. The obvious thing is like, can you beat Sam Laporte on a block as a tight end but then also cover Sam Laporta? But then the real question is if you're lined up in a Monroe, maybe they want to double Jameson Williams. Can you guard a Monroe St. Brown and if a Monroe sets a pick and then they switch you into Jameson Williams, can you, can you tackle Jameson Williams at a crosser? So it's like can you beat a tight end on a block? Can you cover a tight end? Can you keep. Maybe you're not going to stop Jameson Williams for getting a measure out, but can you tackle him? So Jameson Williams is not. He can do all this stuff and I think this is what you need. This is what I mean with. Can you be a B at everything? I think, I think the enemy is like a super modern defender.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, it's like it's like in the NBA, it's like you want guys who can switch one through five.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yes.

[Danny Kelly]

Basically now like you can just switch on every screen and it doesn't matter. You'll be able to match up well.

[Danny Heifetz]

And I think, and that's the thing we were saying, all those tweeners, I just think they were kind of early players. Like, like, like those guys, like Isaiah Simmons, even Minka, like all those guys are more valuable now. And this is what the league needs because, so I don't, I think life is time. I think the theaterman kid is, is amazing. DK, you mentioned 97th percentile, 40 yard dash among safeties. And then he was in the 95th percentile in the vertical jump for safeties, which again, just incredibly explosive player. So, and also just look good during the drills and everything. Smooth. Like I, I, I think he was fantastic.

[Craig Horlbeck]

But yeah, he's the type of guy you don't have to take off the field. He can cover, he can, he can blitz, he can tackle. He shows really good instincts in terms of like his ability, his ability to quickly recognize where the play is going and get to get to the ball and get undercut routes, things like that. He's just really, really fun to watch. And then he goes out and does this at the combine. So it's just like checking a lot of boxes. I think he could be the second safety. There's no world in which he goes above banks, probably, but he's probably Caleb

[Danny Heifetz]

Banks or Caleb Downs or.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Sorry, yes, I meant, I meant downs and maybe is there a chance he goes above downs? I don't know. I don't probably not just because of the athletic thing, but I think safety

[Danny Heifetz]

is going to go higher. This is going to be a whole thing with positional value, but like the whole thing. Oh, they're not. The idea is that, well, quarterbacks get paid $60 million, so you want one because then you'll have a rookie. All the rookie draft picks are going to get paid mostly the same. So if the ceiling on a $60 million quarterback, if he's good, that's $60 million value at $14 million salary. But if running backs, the highest one gets paid $14 million and Jeremiah Love is really good, you're paying him $14 million, so you haven't actually made any surplus value is the idea. That's the game within the game. So they're like, well, linebackers and centers and you can't take these guys. The flip side that no one talks about is if there's A you're assuming that the market is perfect. So an example I think is Fred Warner from the the line, the linebacker from the 49ers. The overall linebacker position is not paid that much as an inside linebacker. Fred Warner is a league is a game changing player.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Right.

[Danny Heifetz]

You could very easily argue that the Niners having Fred Warner on the inside linebacker salary that a Fred Warner had ever made the open market, he might be worth like 30, 35 million dollars a year. He's probably a tick or two below Miles Garrett in terms of what people would pay Fred Warner to be on their team. And the Niners have had him for half that. So I think that the thing to remember is yes, safeties aren't paid that much, but they make everyone better. And so if you're able to get a safety, the back end of that is you're having an elite player and the ceiling, he'll never be paid what he's worth, which is also worth something. So I think you're going to have more safeties, more inside linebackers, like the sunny styles, it's a good linebacker class, tight ends, a lot of these things. I think that it's not as simple as what people make it out to be. I want to go through some other guys that just. There's a lot of guys that just rose in this process. Zachariah Branch, the receiver from Georgia, from usc, was the number one. Tyler Brook, who friend of the show, covered the packers for a long time, pointed out that he thinks Zachariah Branch is an industry plant.

[Craig Horlbeck]

How so?

[Danny Heifetz]

Kind of like, you know, Dua Lipa or whatever people are like, where'd this guy come from? Your exact right. Branch is just a thirst trap of. So he's 5 foot 9, 177 pounds, ran a 435-40 yard dash, 96 percentile for speed. He was the number one high school prospect as a receiver, five star receiver and just USC, Georgia, that highlights the way he moves. Everything about is incredible. His name is fucking Zachariah Branch. And then it's like, well, can he play receiver? Unclear. Right? And yet I feel like he's going to be a second round pick. You know what I mean? It's like I don't know what to do with him. Is he a gadget player or is he like.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That is the question. That is the question.

[Danny Kelly]

Dk, it's that time. What's, what's his comp?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Oh man, that's a good question.

[Danny Kelly]

The only way I can judge a

[Craig Horlbeck]

player the, well, the ultimate like upside comp would Be someone like Tyree Kill, because there's just not a lot of guys his size. He's 5 9, 177, but he's so explosive, moves so well, good returner, but the size thing is a big deal. And then obviously last year at Georgia, if you look at like the distribution of like routes and targets that he had, it was all, you know, behind the line of scrimmage screens, really easy stuff to kind of just get him the ball in space. And he wasn't running a ton of vertical routes. So I think there's just a question of like, can he be a real receiver, run real receiver routes? There was some indication that he could do that at ufc, but basically at Georgia he just was a gadgety guy. So. But I think, I mean if you watch him play, it's pretty incredible. His speed and explosiveness and, and just fluidity as a, as an athlete. There's something there that teams are going to take a, take a risk on to kind of see what they can get out of him.

[Danny Heifetz]

The other receiver that I think really went way up is Jeff Caldwell, the receiver from Cincinnati, who I think was going to be like a third, like a day three pick, fifth, sixth, maybe seventh round player. And then he, 6 foot 5, 216 pounds, 6 foot 5, ran a 4, 3, 1, 40 yard dash. So again, 100th percentile, 6 5. I keep saying that a lot, but 6 foot 5 and he runs a 4, 3 and that's insane. And then also 99th percentile burst score, which is about explosiveness. And he's like, he's a real receiver, can run rounds. I think this is a guy that went from the sixth round to the third round just from the combine and just is going to be like a fantasy, like under the radar guy where it's like 6 foot 5 burner actually has a route.

[Craig Horlbeck]

There's shades of like the Isaac to Sloth thing here where yes, if you look at Jeff Caldwell's tape, there's certainly things that you could like he's a little stiff, separation stuff like winning at the catch point, all that stuff is, is kind of questionable. But when you got a guy who's 6, 5, 2, 16 who can run a 4, 3, like we could use that in our offense somehow kind of figure it out. I don't think he's going to get any higher than the third round probably. But yeah, you're exactly right. He went from being a, you know, UDFA or late round guy to probably being taken fourth, fifth round and, and someone Trying to, like, figure out what they can do with that athleticism.

[Danny Heifetz]

The last one here. And then I want to get to some of the personalities. Well, actually, while we're on receivers, I want to talk about Makai Lemon, the receiver from usc, who I think had a good goal.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He's like, the only thing people are talking about today. I want to. Maybe the biggest story of the. Of the combine.

[Danny Heifetz]

I want to talk to you about his podium. So this went a little bit viral. Maybe you saw it, maybe you did, but Makai Lemon is receiver from usc. There's a video of a question who's being asked where, you know, you guys describe it. I'm curious what you guys think.

[Danny Kelly]

It is rather unique. It is hard to put into words his behavior and kind of physical movement and eye contact. And he's like. It was like. He was like. He became a snake. And like, I actually don't know how

[Danny Heifetz]

it looks like Zoolander. It's kind of like Zoolander answering a question was like.

[Danny Kelly]

He was like.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He was slightly sexual.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Like a little, like. Yeah. Sensual almost. It was very intense.

[Danny Kelly]

So it's like kind of like doing this. He's, like, kind of swaying back and forth. Breaking eye contact. Yes. I don't know.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The whole thing is at us when he's talking.

[Danny Heifetz]

You know, that was a weird moment for me because there's a couple different videos that went around of like a minute, 90 seconds of him talking like that. I was at Makai Lemon's podium the entire time. And it was weird because I think most times the viral videos are kind of out of context. He was like that the entire time.

[Craig Horlbeck]

This is in context.

[Danny Heifetz]

15 minutes was exactly like that. And DK, you have no short term memory anymore, but do you remember that? I came back and I was trying to explain it to you, and you guys were. You guys were kind. You didn't know what I was trying to say. And. And you were. I was just like, no. Like, you were like, how was. And I was like, yeah, his vibe was. I just didn't know how to describe.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Can't put your finger on it. Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

And I. It was like that the whole time. And he, like.

[Danny Kelly]

Like, if he's at lunch with a friend, is he like that or.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Dude, I could. I could tell it's a performance. It was a performance.

[Danny Heifetz]

Dude. Nervous stoner, trying to alpha everybody. Trying to be really intense. Maybe I don't. Also, should you put him higher on the board? Like, oh, he's. He's a psycho. Or like you.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, you could Argue this is either a huge red FL flag or actually agree.

[Danny Kelly]

Look, it's good for a wide receiver. You need your wide receivers.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That'd be a little crazy.

[Danny Heifetz]

I think it. It was. All I'll say is I. I noticed it immediately, and it actually was reaffirming to me that everyone who saw videos of it was also like, what's up with this? Because I came back and I was like, I don't know what to make of this person.

[Craig Horlbeck]

This is that thing where it's like, maybe not all press is good press. I don't know what to make of this. I will not.

[Danny Heifetz]

The lesson of the last 10 years.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He did an interview, I think. I imagine it was like, either directly before or directly after that podium appearance with. With Chris Sims and Florio. And it was totally normal. I was like, this is like a normal interview. What. What happened between this time and when he was up on the podium?

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh.

[Danny Kelly]

Oh, he wasn't behaving the same way?

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, it was. It felt like a normal interview. I, Like, I watched that. I would watch that interview and come away with nothing.

[Danny Heifetz]

It was basically just, you know, the podiums are tough. I get it, though. The whole set. We never. I don't know if we talked about this. The whole setup at the combine is fascinating. Anything I don't like, we've been. You just have all these podiums are next to each other, and it's like they're kind of raised, and then all the reporters kind of gather around, and it's like a lot. It's like, I guess people yelling at

[Craig Horlbeck]

you the whole time kind of get. Trying to get questions off.

[Danny Kelly]

Did you.

[Danny Heifetz]

Did you talk to the Steelers? Did you interview the Steelers? And he's like, yes. Like, did you interview the Colts?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yes.

[Danny Heifetz]

And it's like everyone's screaming, and I'm

[Danny Kelly]

like, all they do is just yell. Did you meet with this team?

[Danny Heifetz]

Tell me about the adversity? Was there adversity?

[Craig Horlbeck]

And it's how the adversity make you feel.

[Danny Heifetz]

Did it make you better or worse? And it's. It's a strange setup.

[Danny Kelly]

And if it's. If it was just nerves, that is one of the more bizarre reactions.

[Danny Heifetz]

I don't know. But he's good.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I don't know.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's weird. I. What?

[Craig Horlbeck]

What? Bottom line, because you didn't like him as much as I like him, what's your reaction coming off of this? Like, you're confirming, like, why you didn't like him or what? No.

[Danny Kelly]

Again, I think if any position group should Be weird and kind of like an enigma. It should be a wide receiver. So in that regard, I don't think it's a demerit. If that was my quarterback, I'd be like, I'm not sure about this. Totally.

[Danny Heifetz]

That is true. So the. You know, it's funny, too. So the Makai Lemon thing. So he was near Elijah Surrat, the receiver from Indiana. There's Omar Cooper Jr. Elijah Surratt. And Elijah Surratt was so different. He was, like, very charismatic, very earnest, very, like, happy to talk. And, like, I don't think I told Craig. Craig. I don't think I told DK this. I don't think I told you this. So Elijah. So at one point, they get asked all these weird questions. So at one point, Elijah Surat gets asked, what was the first NFL jersey you ever owned? And he goes, I don't know if I owned. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, my first NFL jersey was Michael Vick. And everyone kind of puckers a little, and he's like, dude, here we go. He's like, I'm from Virginia. Michael Vick's from Virginia. I love Michael Vick. He was so fun to watch growing up. He was inspiration, man. Michael Vick was a dog. And we all just could have used any other word physically recoil. And I don't.

[Danny Kelly]

Do you think. Do you think he had no idea? Do you think he knows about.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Michael Vick's just the fast guy.

[Danny Heifetz]

He.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's the salad. It's the Paul Newman salad.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. He was a child. I played. He was like. He was awesome. In Madden.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

There's a chance that Madden came out years before he was even born. I like the same time. So I. But that was. That was like, honestly, the highlight. So that's going on over there to my right. And then Maai Lemon was there just like, an audible.

[Danny Kelly]

Mai Lemon is, like, slithering up to the right.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Say,

[Danny Heifetz]

I. I feel so much less crazy now that everyone's locked in on this. I. I don't.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Like.

[Danny Kelly]

The only thing I can think of is, like, a serpent.

[Danny Heifetz]

Like, you're so right that the eyes lock. It was like that the whole time. The eyes locked in, but the head blocks are. I don't know.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He was serpentine. Serpentine. His route. His route running is serpentine.

[Danny Kelly]

It was like a. It was like a slippery, actual serpent.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Sexual serpent.

[Danny Heifetz]

I want to go through some other losers from the combine. Well, actually, wait, before the podiums, Diego Pavia, the quarterback from Vanderbilt, the guy who lost the Heisman, that went to a Club in New York and posted on his Instagram story. Basically, like, for Daz or whatever. They asked him, like, are you going to chill? He's a crazy guy. He's like, are you going to chill? And he laughed. And Diego Pavi was like, you know, they. My coaches told me your. Your frontal lobe doesn't really finish developing until you're 25. He's like, I think I got like a year left till I'm fully baked.

[Craig Horlbeck]

This is like a Hail Mary defense.

[Danny Kelly]

He's like, I'm still growing.

[Danny Heifetz]

Technically, my brain.

[Craig Horlbeck]

My brain isn't fully developed yet.

[Danny Heifetz]

Guys thought that was so funny.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The other one, respect it. Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Losers from the combine. I wanted to mention Aaron Glenn, the coach of the jets, who in one of the more two relatable things was caught on the. They do the camera angle of all the guys in their suites watching. And Aaron Glenn's asleep.

[Danny Kelly]

And then he looks like Michael Sarah in Superbad when he gets caught staring. Yeah, what's her name's Boobs. Then he kind of wakes up like, that was Aaron Glenn.

[Danny Heifetz]

He actually would have better if he had not waken up. Like, him waking up made it so much.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I couldn't quite tell. He was.

[Danny Kelly]

Exactly.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Before.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, me neither.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It was. It was the reaction. He could have been looking down at the Coldplay concept.

[Danny Kelly]

Well, that's like. I feel like.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yes, it was. He was like.

[Craig Horlbeck]

If they would have just, like, stayed still, they would have been fine. But it was the reaction that got him.

[Danny Kelly]

Yes. That happens all the time with Trump. It's like, is Trump asleep in this meeting? And then it's like, well, if he didn't, technically, his eyes could be down. You don't really know.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, dude, that was funny.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It.

[Danny Heifetz]

That was. That was the other. I wanted to throw out one of those.

[Danny Kelly]

You just put on those really cheesy glasses that have just eyeballs in them.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

And just sit there with those.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The nose and the mustache.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. The Groucho marks.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah. The other loser I have here for the combine is objective reality.

[Danny Kelly]

Okay?

[Danny Heifetz]

So some of these guys.

[Craig Horlbeck]

We're in a post truth era.

[Danny Heifetz]

We're in a post truth era, and it's extended to the NFL combine. So Carnell Tate, the receiver from Iho State, ran a 4 5, 2, 4, 0 dash. No. No one cares. Puka Kua ran a 4, 5, 7. Have you ever thought Pukinaku is slow? Like Jackson Smith and Jim people? Four, five, two.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I'll interject. Some people care. They probably shouldn't care, but sure.

[Danny Heifetz]

Brandon Bean the gym of the Bills was on the broadcast with Daniel Jeremiah as a guest in the in the announcing booth. And when Carnell tight ran a 452 and Brandon Bean goes, oh, he's so slow. I bet no one should take him for like 1920 picks. Don't take him. And like no one.

[Craig Horlbeck]

To be clear, he was joking.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, he's joking. Yeah. Well yeah, you're right with him we have to clarify but they're Cardinal Tate. It's going to go high. And then Adam Schefter posts I this is Ohio State receiver Carnell Tate. A potential top 10 pick was timed by several NFL executives and GMs on Saturday with a 40 time in the range of 4:4:5 to 4:4:7. And then Shefter explains that there's register official times but teams also do their own hand timing and those management were much lower than the 45 2.

[Danny Kelly]

It is interesting. Do your own timing.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, do your own research. Should we trust the lasers?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Nothing matters.

[Danny Kelly]

Or your hand combine and do it yourself. Squint and eyeball it as he passes

[Danny Heifetz]

the line, your thumb which is perfect as opposed to the light.

[Craig Horlbeck]

This is like straight out of the politics. Like agents are realizing that you can just text thought like or influencers essentially and just make up whatever you want. Adam Schefter was carrying water for was it Reuben Baines agent or whoever?

[Danny Heifetz]

Ruben's like under 31 insurance. I heard it's over 32.

[Craig Horlbeck]

There's a 3 inch. There's a 3 inch variance by the way that some people measure. So maybe he actually has 3 inch longer arms. Like Jesus Christ. Nothing, none of this matters, dude.

[Danny Heifetz]

I I, I I to that. I'm just going to read the exact one. Schefter had some context on measurements taken through the week. Measurements sometimes vary for players. To that end, at least two NFL teams had Reuben Bain Jr's arms measured north of 32 inches.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Under 31, he's just carrying water.

[Danny Heifetz]

But the 40 time one bothers me more because it kept happening where it's like oh, this guy ran a 446.

[Craig Horlbeck]

This laser timed thing is actually false.

[Danny Heifetz]

His agent had four three, eight though.

[Danny Kelly]

Oh, my dad had a four two. You shouldn't even be allowed to hand time the 40. It should only be the laser. There should be no one else allowed to have a stopwatch.

[Danny Heifetz]

And it's so annoying because they're like well we have to do it for historical data because we didn't have the old guys do the hand time. I'm like you know what? You're right. You are no sense faultless process where you sit there and just hand time with your thumb. 200 different people like you are processed. I. I just. You know what?

[Craig Horlbeck]

The other thing is just. And this is to echo something Craig has been saying this whole time is now teams have the GPS data of how fast these guys are running in games. None of this matters.

[Danny Kelly]

These guys running track means nothing after

[Craig Horlbeck]

we spent the entire show talking about why.

[Danny Heifetz]

I know, but.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, well, I understand that it means generally, holistically, once you add it to the rest of the events how athletic a guy is if he runs a fast 40. That is a factor to win.

[Danny Heifetz]

What it means is when Jeff Caldwell is some random receiver from Cincinnati 65 and runs a 4 3, you're like, I guess we have to go watch 10 Jeff Caldwell games.

[Danny Kelly]

Yes. Which is good. But like when the. If you already know a player is good, the 40 is irrelevant.

[Danny Heifetz]

But if you want to feel crazy too just we have to remember this for our pro days in two weeks when they get start doing the pro days that this one is catch days. Daner Dane Brugler at the Athletic who does amazing work posted this. So I think he was talking about last year there were. He's Dane Brugler. So there were 46 offensive linemen who got measured at the combine or. Sorry, no, there are 46 guys who went to the combine that were then remeasured at the pro day because they go to the pro day at the college and they do it on campus and they do all the same stuff. Dane Brugler said 43 of the 46 guys measured longer arms at their pro day than the college. So just keep that in mind when we get these fucking Pro Day numbers. 43 of the 46 guys, their arms grew.

[Danny Kelly]

That's incredible equivalent of like my goes to another school. I was a legend back at home.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, it's the dumbest thing ever.

[Danny Kelly]

Could have gone D1 if coach didn't hate me.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah. DK any other stuff from the combine overall, there's like a lot of guys fast, a lot of guys big.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, I mean we talked about already the arm length stuff with Reuben Bay and Cassius Howell might matter, it might not matter.

[Danny Heifetz]

We'll see shortest arms for any first round edge rusher basically would be either Reuben Bain or Cassius Howell.

[Craig Horlbeck]

But yeah, when we're talking like 0th percentile, that's. That's worth talking about, I suppose. Jermod McCoy from Tennessee didn't test which is a Little bit of a red flag because he was. I want to say he was injured.

[Danny Heifetz]

He last. December, 2024.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Oh, December. Okay.

[Danny Heifetz]

And he had a. He had an ACL. Jermaine McCoy had an ACL surgery in January of 2024. So it was about 13 months ago. And then he didn't run at the

[Craig Horlbeck]

combine, which is that legitimately could push him down a little bit. Even though people, I think, believe he is one of the better corners in his class. Like, the health thing is a huge

[Danny Heifetz]

issue, and they say he's going to do protest stuff that. Do you care about that? Like, is that something where you're like, yeah, like, he's coming back from an injury. You don't want him to get hurt at the thing. Like, give him the extra month and, like, let him be good at the pro day. And then teams don't care.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I mean, if he. If he goes out and does his pro day and there's absolutely no restrictions and he looks fast and explosive, then, yeah, that's fine. And then you can look at it. But if he goes out and he only does two or three things, no cutting, no changing direction, then you start to be like, also, what's. What's going on here?

[Danny Heifetz]

Part of me wonders if, like, the issue also is if you're coming off an ACL tear when Jeremiah Love, the no Dame running back, runs a 4, 3, 6, 40, and it's like, I can't run anymore. I. For my hamstring or whatever. Like, everyone knows he's lying, so no one even reports it. But if Jamad McCoy is like, oh, I can't finish everything, I'm hurt. People are like, what? Yeah. So, like, honestly, that might be it, too. They're like, we can't actually bow out of anything. So, yeah, the combine we have, we're in the thick of it now. We're about to get, like, a week from now, we're going to start free agency. That's going to be insane. We're gonna cover a ton of free agency, and we're gonna learn a lot about these teams. Right, Craig? Gonna learn a ton. And then, yeah, like, the draft season, like, really gets going. Combine it to free agency. And then teams, you really see who, what teams need what, and you start to figure out everything.

[Danny Kelly]

Did you guys have fun in Indy? How was your indie experience? How many combines have. That was my second combine.

[Danny Heifetz]

What about.

[Danny Kelly]

What was it for you guys?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I think I've been going since 2012 or 2013, so, yeah, six or seven for me. Been to a few.

[Danny Kelly]

It's always six, seven. DK. How has it changed? Is it better now? Worse now? Slower?

[Craig Horlbeck]

So when I. The first year that I went. The first year or two that I went, it actually in the stadium, there was a side area in the.

[Danny Kelly]

Oh, you mean the radio row area where they do all those interviews with the coaches and players. Right now it's in the Convention Center. It was in Lucas Oil, like in a gigantic.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Like the size of a Boeing hangar is. Is where they do the combine now. And when I started, it was basically in like, a little room off the concourse of the stadium. So that's very different. There's just more people there, obviously in that, and I think there's just more structure to everything, more like the way that they put people through the. All the podiums and all that. I think the. We couldn't. You couldn't get into the stadium before to watch stuff unless you're part of the Pro Football Writers Association. I think there's. There's little things like that that are different. And then also I think just in the years teams and coaches have kind of figured out, like, what bars to go to to avoid media. And in the old days, everybody was kind of in the same place. Like, people all. You'd be able to go talk to Sean Payton or whoever at High Velocity, which is in the J Dub Marriott. And I think that's a little different now. You don't see that quite as often.

[Danny Heifetz]

I agree. I think four years ago we knew where to go to a bar, and There were like 11 head coaches in the bar. And now it's like, you know, they

[Craig Horlbeck]

just go to some private party. You know, they go to some, you know, restaurant where they have a private room or something.

[Danny Kelly]

I mean, that's. I feel like that's across like. Like in Hollywood even. It's like back in the day, you could go see a celebrity, like, at a bar, having a good time, and now it's like, there's no shot they're going to be at a private social club, some private home or something like that. It's probably mainly because of social media. Nobody wants to be caught on camera anymore. But yeah, it was the same thing we were talking about in Indy. Like, there's this bar, prime, where at night you go and like, it used to be. And again, I wasn't there. This is what you guys told me. Like, you could see Doug Peterson over there, Randy Moss over there, and you were just like, having beers with your. With your co workers. And that was athletes and everybody all around media people. And now it's a little bit like, oh, I'm. There might be one person in this entire bar that I recognize.

[Danny Heifetz]

The first time I went to that bar you're talking about in Indy, like, the first year I walk in and you know when sometimes you have to, like, squeeze through to someone, like, to get past, like, this tight area. And it was like Sean Payton and the entire Saints coaching staff were the people I had to walk through. And then I get there and I like. You know, you're like, there's someone else trying to get a drink too. And it's like, you know, at a bar, and sometimes you're like, oh, who's the bartender going to go to first? And it was me. And the other guy was Michael Thomas, who had just had 149 catches and, like, one offensive player of the year or whatever he did. And then I'm like, his card is. Looks so much heavier than my credit card. And it's like, that's the guy at the bar. And you look around, then I'm like, I'm. I. You get my drinks. I go to the. Like, you're like, running. Mike Tomlin is the guy. Like, it's crazy.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

So it is fun. And you still have that. You turn the corner and Adam Scheff just talking to some gm, like, again, like, a few. Even a few years ago, we got dinner on the table next to Mike Tomlin. That is the fun part of the combine and everything. But I agree that it's. Yeah, this. The separation away from the mere mortals is happening.

[Danny Kelly]

Well, because the nightlife, I feel like I can understand. There's private parties, agencies throw parties, things like that. But dinner, I feel like you still can see people at dinner because there's only so, so many, like, nicer steakhouses there. We went to St. Elmo, which is kind of the famous steakhouse in Indianapolis Heifetz made to his credit, because it's hard to get a reservation in advance. He made four straight nights of reservations for eight at St. Elmo at like, 7:30 every single night. And we went three nights in a row. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

[Danny Heifetz]

People are going to think I'm crazy. Can I defend myself?

[Danny Kelly]

I don't think you're crazy. I think it was good to do in advance.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh, good. No one's gonna think I'm crazy.

[Danny Kelly]

Stockpiling picks, you know, you could trade them in the future.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah. I was like, oh, we'll update these later. And then we just never fucking updated the plan so that every day at 6 o'.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Clock.

[Danny Heifetz]

We'd be like, what are we doing? We're like, oh, right. We only have this one reservation, so we can't.

[Danny Kelly]

I was dying. Because also, the menu is quite limited, actually. It's pretty much like steak.

[Craig Horlbeck]

You're having shrimp and then steak.

[Danny Kelly]

Shrimp, steak and cheesy sides and cheese

[Danny Heifetz]

for dinner,

[Danny Kelly]

which is good on day three. I remember the waiter came up and I was like, I can't eat another steak. I'm gonna die if I eat a steak. And I was like, I see you have a Caesar salad. And I see you also sell a chicken breast. I was like, can I get a chicken Caesar salad? He's like, we don't do that. I said, okay. And I was like, well, is the Caesar big enough for an entree? Can I just get a Caesar salad? And he just looked at me in the eyes and was like, I would not do that if I were you. Like, all right, I guess I'll get in a steak. Guess I'll get an eight ounce filet, please.

[Danny Heifetz]

He bullied you.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, he did. My cholesterol's up 50.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Seriously, dude. My. The. The whatever. What is it? The horseradish sauce. It's just coursing through my veins right now. Yeah, that was a little bit much. I. I'm a passenger, princess. When it comes to restaurant reservations. I'm just like, I'll go wherever the res.

[Danny Kelly]

We're just car DK around la, Around Indy.

[Craig Horlbeck]

If I had to quibble. Maybe next time we do other restaurants.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, next time we'll check.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I appreciate Hyphens's. Are you okay?

[Danny Kelly]

He just got wrong piped.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Is he gonna make it? I appreciate if it's. Look. Looking forward and taking into, you know, the initiative on that.

[Danny Kelly]

But also it's a good look to be. Or it's. It's nice. It's a nice to have. He might be dead. Because then he also made it for eight.

[Danny Heifetz]

You guys keep going.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Do we need to call 91 1?

[Danny Kelly]

I don't know. I think he just went down the wrong pipe. Who among us very dealt with that?

[Craig Horlbeck]

He's. He just left.

[Danny Kelly]

But it was good because Hyvin's made it for eight people every night. So it was like, okay, we can, like, bring our co workers. We can invite other people from the media. It was like an open invitation every night. So it was like every day. We went to dinner with the party

[Craig Horlbeck]

planning committee over here. Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

We got dinner with McShay and Mensch one night. Like, it was fun, but yeah, I Was. I was ready to.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Craig, I hate to tell you this, but the other. The other restaurant that we've done, historically, there is Fogo de Chao, which is just pure meat. Two years ago, Solak did the double Fogo de Chao.

[Danny Heifetz]

He.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He went to dinner with us at Fogo de Chao and then just stayed as we left and then went and had Fogo de chow with other people.

[Danny Kelly]

He's holding court.

[Danny Heifetz]

Soul food.

[Danny Kelly]

So he went from the green card to the red card back to the green.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And he was actually questioning because at Fogo de Chao, I think you just get the all you can eat buffet. And he was like, do I need to get another all you can eat buffet? Or since I didn't actually leave the restaurant, can I just keep eating?

[Danny Kelly]

What was your guys's favorite celebrity sighting? And by that, I mean, like, athlete or whatever.

[Danny Heifetz]

Hold on. I'm going to die. Again.

[Danny Kelly]

Anybody? You enjoyed seeing High.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Fitz turning off his camera. What is going on?

[Danny Heifetz]

I don't know.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He's still breathing. Yeah. Oh, dude. I don't know.

[Danny Heifetz]

I don't know what that was.

[Craig Horlbeck]

What happened there?

[Danny Heifetz]

I have no idea.

[Craig Horlbeck]

You.

[Danny Heifetz]

The differences in our show, in every other show is we're gonna. We're. We're gonna show everything. Yeah. That was horrific.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's a good question.

[Danny Kelly]

Did you laugh at something or was it just wrong pipe?

[Danny Heifetz]

I was so appalled that you got a chicken Caesar salad at Elmos that I just. My body. On day three, my body couldn't.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, my.

[Danny Heifetz]

I revolted.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No.

[Danny Heifetz]

I don't know what just happened to me.

[Danny Kelly]

Fave.

[Danny Heifetz]

Sighting an indie favorite. Oh, Big Dom is. Seeing Big Dom is so funny to me. I don't know why.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, but always at the ready.

[Danny Heifetz]

Seeing Big Dom just follow Nick Sirianni. Because, like, first of all, it implies, like, if you didn't know anything about any context of anything, you would kind of assume Nick Sirianni was, like, a mafia leader. Like, that's the only other. I don't know who else gets followed. Like, honestly, you know what Big Dom looks like? Have you ever seen how big Messi's bodyguards are? Like, they're the biggest people in the world are just like the people who, like, follow Leo. Like Lionel Messi or people. I don't know who else has anyone follow them around? Like, Big Dom, he's got one. He's got the Italian chain on a choker and then a lower Jesus piece below him.

[Danny Kelly]

He's kind of got, like a sweatsuit vibe.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh, everything's brand new clothing. It's insane. He's unlike anyone I've ever met.

[Danny Kelly]

I feel like you can't have Big Dom in your employment unless your team is good.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh, if the Browns had Big Dom, it'd be a joke.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, that wouldn't go.

[Danny Kelly]

Stefanski was walking around with Big Dom, as every year they go 3 and 13, 3 and 4. It doesn't work. You need to be good.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

What was your. What did I miss while I was gone? Dying.

[Craig Horlbeck]

We were just talking about Fogo to Chow. Who is Craig? Who is your biggest thing?

[Danny Heifetz]

That system? We don't talk if you haven't been to Fogo to Chow.

[Danny Kelly]

I've never been.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh, my. It's unlike any other restaurant. It's like there's all these unwritten rules, so you have to hold up a little card that has a green or red on. If you. They come over and they have, like, all this crazy meat, and you hold up a green. If you want more meat, just read. If they.

[Craig Horlbeck]

They bring by meats and you slip your card. Yeah, yeah. And they shave off some meat for you. Or maybe they just. They have, like, these little skewers of meat, and they'll put some. They'll put some meat on your plate. Whenever you want meat, it's there at the ready.

[Danny Heifetz]

And the appetizers are, like, just at a buffet, but then they're coming around with meat constantly. It's a crazy system, but we should. We should figure out how to have a Fogo pod.

[Danny Kelly]

What do you mean?

[Danny Heifetz]

I don't know. But the green. The. I can't tell if the. The stoplight system is perfect.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. It's like how in Ubers now you can say, like, I don't want to be spoken to.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Oh, right.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

Which is a little weird.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah, I. I never hit that. But it's weird to think telling the driver, like, don't talk to me, but maybe it's helpful.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I don't know.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, it's like how some people, when they get their hair cut, some people like the barber to talk to them. Some people don't.

[Craig Horlbeck]

So I want the chit chat.

[Danny Kelly]

I don't mind to talk the chit chat. I also. I've had the same barber for, like, five years, so I know her now. But I do. I do kind of get. Sometimes you just want to, like, unplug, get a haircut, not have to chat about your day. Where are you guys at with that?

[Craig Horlbeck]

I never hit. I never hit any of the preferences on. On Uber. It's okay to chat me up.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh, he goes to Uber.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I don't have haircuts anymore, unfortunately. I'm really jealous of people that have haircuts because I did like to go. And I did like to enjoy or I did enjoy going to get my haircut before.

[Danny Kelly]

Oh, really?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

I, I, I. I love the feeling right after a haircut, but, like, going to a haircut's a pain.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, there's, like, a certain ASMR thing to it. It's. This is something that I think a lot of people have where it's like the. The buzzer noise next to your ear is, like, calming for some reason. I don't know. I like it.

[Danny Kelly]

My celebs, my fav sighting was. I remember when we left St. Elmo, I think it was night two, and we were walking on the street, it was cold, and there was this really tall, lanky white guy in front of us. And he and I both looked at each other, and I was like, is that fucking Bob Myers? And he's like, I think that's Bob Myers. And I, like, kind of ran alongside of him to catch a profile shot to confirm it was Bob Myers, GM of the warriors.

[Danny Heifetz]

For everyone who's in obsession, the former

[Danny Kelly]

GM of the warriors, who's now works for the Commanders.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I didn't even know who that was. Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

Yes. But I was, like, 95% sure that was Bob Myers. That was cool. He's very tall.

[Danny Heifetz]

We also did the handshake combine, which we'll have soon.

[Danny Kelly]

We have been discussing for years how men have too many ways to greet one another, and it honestly just came out of every time we saw each other. You do the dap, sometimes it goes great, sometimes it goes terribly. You meet someone new, you shake a lot of hands at the combine, you don't know these people. And the DAP can go in any direction, so we thought we should put that on camera.

[Danny Heifetz]

We're gonna have coming to a theater near you the. The handshake Combine. Shout out Doug Kaid and Andrew Callahan.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah. All right. Any other stuff in the combine,

[Craig Horlbeck]

the weather was actually nice.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. It was like 25 degrees when we flew in, and it was like 60 when we flew out.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Hell, yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

Also, I would like to just point out. Give me 10 seconds here to find it. We did an episode with Mensch and McShay, and on the episode, it was a bonus episode that came out on Friday. On the episode, we just talked about if I could throw for 20 yards in an opponent.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah. Are you looking up the Poll.

[Danny Kelly]

We voted on it. The fans voted. The fans weighed in.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The people.

[Danny Kelly]

The people have spoken. 56% believe I could do it.

[Danny Heifetz]

All right, fine. There's one person we'll let settle this. Do you. Will you. Will you text Sean McVeigh and ask him?

[Danny Kelly]

I haven't spoken to him in three years, man. Maybe I should, though, like, send him the video. I mean, like, how busy is he really right now? I can probably take. Text him, right?

[Craig Horlbeck]

How busy could he be?

[Danny Kelly]

I mean, he would probably respond to me now.

[Craig Horlbeck]

He didn't go to combine.

[Danny Heifetz]

He's probably not that good.

[Danny Kelly]

Terms. I'd have to. I don't know.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I hope he's like, you could do the meme where you're like, I. I sent Sean McVeigh a text to ask him about this thing, and here's what he said. How'd you get. How'd you get this number?

[Danny Kelly]

Well, the biggest problem is if I send him the clip, he's going to say, why did you say Shanahan could scheme you up to 20?

[Danny Heifetz]

20 yards?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Oh, that's actually very fair.

[Danny Kelly]

Well, because. Because I think McVeigh could ski me up to 30.

[Danny Heifetz]

That is a great sneaky problem, is that you said Kyle Shannon could do it, not him. I. Maybe you just tell him you think you can't, and then he just gives you this detailed breakdown of how he'd do it.

[Danny Kelly]

They're looking for a backup.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Craig, if you want to cover all bases. How many yards do you think Cliff could scheme you up for?

[Danny Heifetz]

Nah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Nah. No, you're not doing that.

[Danny Heifetz]

No.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Okay.

[Danny Heifetz]

Matt. Nagy.

[Danny Kelly]

Nagy. I'd be dead. First play of the game. Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

All right.

[Danny Heifetz]

The only email I want to read here is. It's text from Roger Sherman, our former ringer colleague.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

The show. And wanted to point out we're talking about Mo Ali Cox. Let me mention, we always talk about nominative determinism, and he.

[Danny Kelly]

We talked about him because Mo Ali Cox has the largest hands in NFL history.

[Danny Heifetz]

And Roger said, how did you have that whole conversation without mentioning his name is Mo Cox?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Fair. God, we really missed that.

[Danny Kelly]

Is that why he's. He goes by Mo Ali, you think? Because he.

[Danny Heifetz]

Mo Cox is 100 million. That's why he's a three. A full name guy. Like, you can't just walk around and

[Danny Kelly]

be like, well, no, his last name is Ali Cox.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yes. But at the very least, it's a helpful buffer.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

At a minimum, to have. Yeah, that's. It's the Spider man meme.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I can't believe it was right there.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yeah. So the biggest hands ever. This guy's name is Mo Cox. So. Yep. Okay.

[Craig Horlbeck]

All right.

[Danny Heifetz]

Thank you, dk. Thank you, Craig. Thank you, Cam. Thank you, boo. Thank you, Carlos. Thank you, Austin. Thank you everyone for listening emails of ringerfantasyfootballgmail.com. what did we ask for?

[Craig Horlbeck]

It was like Valentine's ideas maybe.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh, it was. Was the things sell it manic. Yeah. Replacing flowers and what we should sell at our real mannequin store other than flowers to gifts to get your wife that aren't so freaking expensive and die. So see this? Flowers. Send us those.

[Craig Horlbeck]

We should probably just get. Get flowers.

[Danny Kelly]

Real men shop at real mannequin.

[Danny Heifetz]

Also, if the women listening have an idea of what you'd want instead of flowers or can argue why you do want flowers, actually would love to hear it. I mean, we're going to keep buying them but like we're just curious. We're just asking questions here and then. Yeah. So we're. I mean, next week free agency. We're having another episode this week and then free agency happens. And it's pretty. Yeah. A lot of players gonna change teams so we're gonna learn a lot.

[Craig Horlbeck]

There you go.

[Danny Heifetz]

Thank you, Lord.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Lord. Thank you, Polo and Pan. Craig's peeps. Nice.

[Danny Kelly]

Who we were. We were at the Marriott lobby before we left for the airport, I think.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

And there was like a French song playing and I told DK that there's a cool French band called Polo and Pan that I think you would like. And did you listen to it?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Confirmed? I did. Yeah, I did.

[Danny Kelly]

They're cool, right?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Very cool.

[Danny Heifetz]

The music in the hotel lobby was crazy. I like EDM more than you guys. And it was very loud. Edm.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It was extremely loud. Which I kind of liked.

[Danny Kelly]

You know what? I got of a bone to pick with. With coffee shops.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh, okay.

[Danny Kelly]

Because this might be my age showing. I'm a 31 year old man now. I'm not a. I'm not a young buck. I'm in my. I'm in my. The end of my prime. Post prime. Still in my prime. Post prime. Okay. However, Liz and I in the morning sometimes we'll go walk and get coffee. Dude, it's fucking 8am 8:30 in the morning. On a Tuesday, on a Friday, on a Sunday, it doesn't matter. And they are blaring EDM music. Or you're going into a bagel shop at 9am and they are blaring music. I'm like one. It doesn't have to be EDM. The kids, the teens will still buy your bagel if you're playing nice normal music. And also it doesn't have to be at a 12 out of 10 on the volume. Make it normal, make it more. It would be more enjoyable. There is one place we go to that does a good job and they play normal music at a normal volume and it's lovely.

[Danny Heifetz]

I think this is a deeper thing than you even realize because I think one of the biggest things that makes a differentiator in service jobs is whether you're allowed to DJ or whether you have to listen to the same 12 songs on repeat. Because if you've ever worked a job, whatever it is, where you had to listen to like the same 12 songs every day.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

It makes you like 20% more likely to quit at any given time.

[Craig Horlbeck]

If I HEAR that Michael McDonald song One More Time, I swear to God it's a Paul Rudd in 40 Year Old Virgin.

[Danny Kelly]

I would rather the coffee shop allow each person working each. It's rotating where each day a different person gets to just have the have ox the entire day. I'd be fine with that. Just because it's somebody's actual personality, not just It's EDM for eight hours and it's 8am Enjoy it.

[Danny Heifetz]

But what kind of EDM but like what kind of EDM do you hate?

[Danny Kelly]

I actually like EDM. But do I want it at 8am at a coffee shop?

[Danny Heifetz]

It's just too loud for you.

[Danny Kelly]

Time and place, it's too loud. It's also like not the proper. When you think of waking up in the morning and having coffee, is EDM what you associate with that? Is that the right mood?

[Craig Horlbeck]

What's the perfect coffee playlist then?

[Danny Heifetz]

I don't know. Jazz.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Play like smooth jazz.

[Danny Kelly]

Sure, you could do that. But like play like, I don't know, Maroon 5. Play like early Maroon 5.

[Danny Heifetz]

He wants Teddy swims. He wants losing control.

[Danny Kelly]

Play Smith. Play songs about Jane. I would love to walk into a coffee shop playing songs about Jane.

[Danny Heifetz]

Are we going to play this at real Mannequin?

[Danny Kelly]

You could literally play the song Sunday morning on Sunday morning at a coffee shop. That would be lovely. We walked by this one bagel place that's very popular. Amazing bagel that came from New York. Pop up bagels blaring music, 8am like what are we doing?

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's where. That's where I was questioning what hyphas was saying. Like is it that store policy to play that or is it just it

[Danny Kelly]

has to be no, it has to be. I'm sure that's like a part of their business strategy or something.

[Danny Heifetz]

Well, is it. Is it a chain or is it like a local? Because the chain is different than I think like a random local.

[Danny Kelly]

Well, it's. Now. Are you not aware of Papa Bagels? It was like a phenomenon in New York and now they're expanding.

[Danny Heifetz]

Now it rings a bell. They had a little truck with some celebrity was in it. And I'm really going to sell this

[Danny Kelly]

Instagram, the first one to open in la opened down the street for me. So we go sometimes, but it's just always just blasting like a vici. Who I love deeply, but not just rock, you know, not an 8am time and a place.

[Danny Heifetz]

Who did I see the pop.

[Danny Kelly]

It's not even a vici. It's some new crap.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The. The other food thing that. That just came to mind was we for lunch, I think three days during the week. We went to Shapiro's Deli in.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And that place was bomb.

[Danny Kelly]

Really good.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Some extremely good sandwiches. We. I got a carrot cake one day for lunch. I didn't eat the whole thing. They had a bunch of cake, cookies.

[Danny Heifetz]

Carrot cake is kind of like a kiss a D if you think about it.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, I did. I only had it one time and I didn't.

[Danny Kelly]

Dessert should be allowed at lunch.

[Danny Heifetz]

I think dessert at lunch is crazy.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's kind of crazy.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's crazy. You know. And they. Shapiro's, if you go to Indianapolis, go to Wait.

[Craig Horlbeck]

But does a cookie count as dessert? I guess it kind of does.

[Danny Heifetz]

Yes.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I'll eat a cookie after lunch. I.

[Danny Heifetz]

You love dessert though. You're. I think you're a dessert menu people and they're a Not dessert menu people.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I like desserts when I'm. When I'm away from my home.

[Danny Kelly]

Same. I don't eat dessert when I'm home. But dessert at a restaurant is a delight.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah, it.

[Danny Heifetz]

It. I. Yeah, it is. But the.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I'll eat a cookie after having a sandwich. I don't care. I'm actually back in on dessert at lunch.

[Danny Heifetz]

Lunch was crazy though, because they put the cake first and we show up.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Cake at lunch is kind of weird.

[Danny Heifetz]

It's insane. I don't think I've had cake because

[Craig Horlbeck]

like that there's so many cakes there.

[Danny Heifetz]

That's also an unspoken part of work is when people bring cake in for someone's birthday. But now there's just cake everywhere and it's like, when can you eat cake 11 at cake 11 in the morning.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's a holiday food cake.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, especially for lunch. Like, I already am not the biggest lunch guy because I think lunch bogs you down.

[Danny Heifetz]

I know how I feel about your lunch takes. You just, you've all, we have all both worked at the Ringer now for like 10 years and I love the Ringer, but the Ringer office has never exactly been overwhelmed with the nearby lunch options in walkable areas. Lunch is amazing. When you're near a good lunch spot like Shapiro's, imagine if you could walk from the Ringer office to Shapiro's in India. You'd feel differently about lunch. You would.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I would have to take it. I would have to take a siesta.

[Danny Kelly]

Exactly. I, I can't eat that every day. I can't have a pizza for lunch.

[Danny Heifetz]

At Galley you get whatever you want.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Cake with lunch.

[Danny Kelly]

Look, I'm American. I can't control myself.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Cake is right there. It's the first thing on the, like, you go in this little line and they have a whole like display case of everything. The cake is literally the first thing.

[Danny Kelly]

I, I, I like lunch foods, but I think that we eat too much for lunch. I think you should have breakfast, light snacking in the middle of the day and then dinner.

[Danny Heifetz]

But you also love Mediterranean food and Mediterranean culture. The whole thing's built around, around lunch.

[Danny Kelly]

Not, not the way we live in America.

[Danny Heifetz]

Should we have, should we have siestas?

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, I mean that would be nice.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's a great, it's a great hell yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

I just think lunch. I, it's funny, I saw there was recently an interview, an interview magazine with Larry David and his daughter. And they had a back and forth about lunch. And I've, I've never felt more seen. I, I, I just pulled it up. His daughter, her name is Kazi, she said lunch is a huge waste of time. And Larry says, and Larry says it's a terrible waste of time. And Kazi says ruins the whole day. And then Larry says it's ridiculous.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Ruins the whole day.

[Danny Kelly]

And then Larry says it's ridiculous. Look, I think if it's like a weekend and you want to go out to lunch with your friends, it's fine. But like middle of a workday, I'm just hammering like a 1500 calorie sandwich. I can't do that.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That, what do you eat for lunch then? Just snack.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, Light stuff.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It is, there is almost like an element of day drinking till having like a big lunch. You like actually need to sleep.

[Danny Kelly]

It's more just like I, lunch is fine, but like, if you get a light salad, that's different than, like, hey, let's go get burgers for lunch. Like, I can't do that.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I used to get in. In my old job, I used to get a. Like a. An entire big burrito from Chipotle. And then I would be in an absolute.

[Danny Kelly]

Just coma. Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

In the second half of the day,

[Danny Kelly]

it's definitely me getting older because I can no longer bounce back from, like, a heavy, heavy meal.

[Danny Heifetz]

100% eat.

[Danny Kelly]

When I was 20, I could have, like, a cheesesteak for lunch and be fine now. If I had a cheesesteak, I'd be knocked on the ass.

[Danny Heifetz]

Dude. If we've ever found. It sounded sleepy. In this show, it's. One of us probably just ate right before.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It, like, reminds me of, like, the snakes when they eat something huge and then they have to digest it for two weeks and they don't eat anything else.

[Danny Heifetz]

That was my. That was why Makai Lemon was like that at the podium. Him digest. Yeah.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Serpentine. Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

So look, I like lunch, but I. You just gotta go light. You gotta go light. Lunch.

[Danny Heifetz]

Email us at ringer fantasy football gmail.com. lunch.

[Danny Kelly]

Quesadilla. Yeah, that's lightish. Right?

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's why I avoid putting chicken in it. I don't want to digest everything.

[Danny Heifetz]

You know what? 15 years, you never once were like, I'm going to put chicken.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Wife had chicken in a quesadilla.

[Danny Heifetz]

But you've never made it that way for yourself, right?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Because I prefer it without.

[Danny Kelly]

DK was trying to convince Mensch at dinner. We told him about the quesadilla thing.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Oh.

[Danny Kelly]

And then. Because, remember, we were talking about Mel Kuiper and how he eats pumpkin pie every day?

[Craig Horlbeck]

Right, Right.

[Danny Kelly]

And we were talking about how crazy that was, and he gave us like.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Well, the Kuiper thing came up because of my quesadilla thing. Yes. We're like, what's worse?

[Danny Kelly]

And we're like, man, that's so crazy what mel Kuiper does. DK's like, yeah, but it's actually totally different than what I do. It's not the same.

[Danny Heifetz]

Me thinks it was kind of.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It honestly, kind of was like an epiphany moment for me. I was like, I'm, like, eating a. I'm eating a pumpkin pie every day. Just another draft looking at me.

[Danny Kelly]

He's, you know, Mel's starting his day with dessert every day. So it's a little different.

[Danny Heifetz]

But do you think he. I would love to know Mel Kuiper's opinion on lunch. After he eats his pumpkin pie for breakfast, he's like I need something light.

[Danny Kelly]

I gotta say during the holidays pumpkin pie for breakfast is awesome.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh dude. Thanksgiving when you could just eat pie at whatever time. Oh my God. Pie. I think p. As I get older I appreciate pie more and more.

[Danny Kelly]

I'm way pie over cake by A.

[Danny Heifetz]

M. I think high level cakes, the ceiling is incredible. But I think most cakes, I think the average pie like a store bought pie from a supermarket, whatever. It's just so much better than a cake. I think a homemade pie is better than pie is incredible.

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's. That's crazy. Talk to me.

[Danny Kelly]

I love pie.

[Danny Heifetz]

Wild berry pie.

[Danny Kelly]

I think pie maybe should be more common as a breakfast item. Have this shit like every pastry is unhealthy and you can have that.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Nobody syrup. Syrup.

[Danny Heifetz]

I know exactly.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Sugar.

[Danny Kelly]

Like I can have a blueberry muffin. That's just fucking cake. Why can't I have a slice of.

[Danny Heifetz]

Craig, you are so.

[Danny Kelly]

God you're.

[Danny Heifetz]

This is, this is.

[Craig Horlbeck]

You can. Craig.

[Danny Heifetz]

Craig.

[Danny Kelly]

No you can't.

[Danny Heifetz]

No, he's right. Because you know why? Breakfast is a bunch of sugar disguised to look like other stuff. It is cereal form. It's just sugar. It's hiding. It's like. Oh, it's like tricks. No, it's fucking sugar. At least Cookie Crisps has the balls to be like, it's just cookies. It's just cookies and milk. Muffins is breakfast cake. Pancakes is just like syrup over bad cake. And to your point, pie at least is like pie and pie probably has the same calories and sugar and all this stuff as other stuff.

[Danny Kelly]

At least there's a goddamn fruit in there. Yeah. At least an apple piece pie. So goddamn fruit.

[Danny Heifetz]

Now I'm gonna admit something. When I was on vacation last July, I'm realizing why I feel so strongly about this

[Danny Kelly]

vacation. All bets are off. You're eating anything at any time on vacation.

[Danny Heifetz]

I had a slice of cherry pie for breakfast one morning and I was totally fine. Do wish I could do this every day.

[Danny Kelly]

I get.

[Danny Heifetz]

I literally thought I get what milk Kuipers do. God, if you could. He's living the life. You wake up every day, eat pie for breakfast. I better start to the day.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. So it's like imagine me eating a bowl of Captain Crunch making fun of Mel Kuiper for eating pumpkin can buy in there.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I mean that's, that's true. Some of the, some of the breakfasts we get from our listeners are pretty up pretty out there.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, I'M like starting my day with a bang energy and a cold slice of pizza. And I'm making fun of Mel Kyber for pumpkin pie.

[Danny Heifetz]

Dude, he's. Come on. He's just ahead of the curve. Wow.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

Respect to you, Mel.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Emails about lunch and breakfast and pie and flowers.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The lunch tastes. These are some strong lunch.

[Danny Heifetz]

I love lunch because lunch you can kind of have dinner stuff and breakfast

[Craig Horlbeck]

stuff, but I don't, I don't eat breakfast. So lunch is pretty essential for me or else I'm really getting hungry.

[Danny Heifetz]

Oh my God, Craig. Do you think DK loves the quesadillas so much because he's just hungry every time he eats it?

[Craig Horlbeck]

That's a huge part of it.

[Danny Heifetz]

Like if you were full, you wouldn't eat that.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yes.

[Danny Kelly]

You are technically having a quesadilla for breakfast because you're breaking your fast. Quesadilla.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yes. But I'm not doing it at the time of day that typically eat breakfast.

[Danny Heifetz]

But I think the reason that you love it so much is just that you're hungry. Part of me wonders it is anything you would love it that.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, I. This is a hundred percent spot on. It's because I start getting hungry. I'm like 10 o', clock, I'm starting to get hungry. 11 o', clock, I'm pretty hungry. 11:30, I'm like hungry. And the first. And the first thing I think of, I'm like craving it. I want a quesadilla. And if I was eating breakfast, quesadilla would be like, ah, I could eat a quesadilla. I could have a sandwich. I could have whatever. Yeah, I'll do like leftovers. I don't feel the need to eat a quesadilla because I'm just like so hungry.

[Danny Kelly]

Did you, did you, did you experience withdrawals in Indianapolis? Five days without.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I actually didn't. I actually didn't.

[Danny Kelly]

Do you ever think about it? Are you ever like, Ah, KCD sounds good right now.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Maybe like the third straight day after going to St. Elmo's I was like, I could just have a normal thing right now and I'd be fine.

[Danny Kelly]

But no, I just got a porterhouse one night, dude. And it was like 15 pounds.

[Craig Horlbeck]

No, Austin ate the big. It was a 20 ounce steak.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. We have to call out Austin. Austin ordered the prime rib one night. It was baked potato.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It was as big as his plate.

[Danny Heifetz]

It looked like the Flintstones, like a bronzer.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It truly did. They brought it over and then the cart tipped over.

[Danny Kelly]

He was dying at the table couldn't finish his food. And then we ordered chocolate mousse and cheesecake. He eats that. And then he's like, guys, I'm so sorry. I cannot go out tonight. I'm too full.

[Craig Horlbeck]

And he just went too full to hang out.

[Danny Heifetz]

First time. Yeah. I've ever seen someone. No, they couldn't come out. They're full.

[Danny Kelly]

He's like, I. I just need to, like, go home and think about digesting, and that's it.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Dude, that's great.

[Danny Heifetz]

I usually do this automatically, but I actually need to think and help focus

[Danny Kelly]

on digesting for the next three hours.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I texted him later. I was like, I need the big guy. I need you out here. And he's like.

[Danny Kelly]

Like the.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The little thought bubbles where you're texting for, like, a full minute. And then finally he was like, I

[Danny Heifetz]

just can't do it. We need a word for when, you know, we need a term for when you catch someone doing that.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Heifetz]

Like, they just, like, start writing and

[Craig Horlbeck]

then erasing, like, response.

[Danny Heifetz]

And then it's just like, okay, I'm watching him.

[Craig Horlbeck]

I'm watching him. The wheels turn. I'm like, what's he gonna say? What's he gonna say? Just can't do it. But I actually respected it because I saw what he ate, and I was like, I get it.

[Danny Kelly]

Sometimes it is too much.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Yeah.

[Danny Kelly]

And you have to go home

[Craig Horlbeck]

anyway.

[Danny Heifetz]

Let's go home right now. Goodbye, everyone.

[Craig Horlbeck]

It's a season two playoff race with tgl. Presented by sofi. Sunday at 9:00pm eastern. Jupiter links versus boston common golf.

[Danny Kelly]

Monday at 7:00pm eastern.

[Craig Horlbeck]

Los angeles golf club versus new york golf club.

[Danny Kelly]

Tuesday at 9:00pm eastern.

[Craig Horlbeck]

The bay golf club versus jupiter links. Keep up. It's golf watch on espn, espn2 and

[Danny Kelly]

the espn app monster energy. Everybody knows white monster 0 ultra.

[Danny Heifetz]

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