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A Big Ol’ MVP Debate. Plus, Picks for Every Other Individual Award. | Group Chat
01:28:22
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- [00:15]
A
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier, and joining me, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann. Gentlemen, we're never talking about college basketball again.
- [00:26]
B
We're done.
- [00:27]
A
The Huskies are done, so take the year off.
- [00:33]
C
This is a great relief to me. You know, trying to fake it through these segments as if I know what you guys are talking about. It's not just an inconvenience to me personally, I find it, like, deeply wounding. So thank goodness we can turn the page on that.
- [00:45]
B
Rob, you said something, like, a couple weeks ago where you dropped this suddenly in there, you were like, it's a distraction. When you were talking about the NCAA tournament, which I think said everything, I was like, okay, buddy. All right. Yeah.
- [00:57]
C
Was I wrong?
- [00:59]
B
Yeah, you're wrong. Think about how many.
- [01:02]
C
Think about how many more nice things we could have said about the dog shit teams of the NBA if we weren't distracted by the tournament.
- [01:08]
A
I had a good time. I thought the tournament was really good this year. Part of that was probably because UConn did so well.
- [01:14]
C
Sure.
- [01:14]
A
But I also thought a lot of the prospects that Kyle has been talking to us about over the course of the year played big roles there. Unlike last year, where a lot of those guys, the Rucker guys in particular, were just not available. Um, didn't end as well as I would. Like. Do I regret wearing the hat that I did? Yeah, a little bit. But I think the fact that they were even in that game was pretty spectacular. It shows how good Dan Hurley is, so I feel good about that.
- [01:38]
B
Did you feel some. Did you feel some, like, person permanence come? Like, did you see, like, some of the words that had come across your. Your desk permanent, you know, become permanent when you see them on the court? Like, maybe they solidified themselves, like names to faces kind of thing?
- [01:52]
A
Yeah, there was a little bit more vibrancy. Like, they came to life off the page. Almost like an Aha. Video or something like that. But, yeah, not great.
- [02:01]
B
We need somebody to innovate that. Yeah.
- [02:03]
A
Do you have any, like, final thoughts from the tournament, Kyle? Can I just say this? First and foremost, like, Michigan, fucking huge. Like, Yaxel looked like he was, like, playing in a different league or age range or something like that.
- [02:18]
C
He was just. Well, he literally is, is he not. Is he not an adult man?
- [02:22]
B
That.
- [02:22]
A
That contributes to it, certainly.
- [02:23]
B
Well, I was laughing about Jamal Mashburn saying that Yaxel reminded him of him, and I was like, yeah, Yaxel's age. You were already in, like, year three or four of. In the NBA like that was. That's a funny thing. Yaxel's good. Those thoughts aside, quickly, basketball wise, like in the macro sense, them changing the block charge rule in college I think caused what we're seeing here. It's no longer viable for David's to go into these games and think that they can take down Goliaths by like just standing up like you know, bowling pins and hope the ball hits them and you know, get in foul trouble. That stuff's not a factor anymore. You can be gigantic like, like Michigan, I don't know, like you know, launching that to. Is that something that is a big, bigger picture thing going on in the NBA too? I don't know. The causality is the same necessarily. Like we talk about the offensive rebounding revolution in NBA. It seems like it's happening in college for different reasons. I think that would be my, my main takeaway for, for basketball fans who are watching both.
- [03:21]
A
Yeah. Whenever I plug in. And by that I mean the past two to three years when UConn finally got really good. Like the fact that post up bigs are still pretty relevant and to the point where like at least two of the successful UConn teams of the past four years have like kind of revolved around those guys in Sanogo and now Terrace Reed is like, it's almost like you're jolting back a couple of years and history where it's like this just doesn't happen in the NBA now. And it seemed like to a certain extent other teams were kind of thriving off of their bigs and obviously Michigan was just gigantic to the point where I mean Morris Johnson was basically playing the like the three or the four. I guess he and Yaxo would switch and they're both like power forwards in the NBA, which is wild.
- [04:04]
C
The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. Don't forget with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21+ in select states. 18+ for DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. A gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut K Pop Demon Hunters, Haja Boy's breakfast meal and hunt tricks meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rooney?
- [04:47]
A
It's not a battle.
- [04:49]
C
So glad the Saja boys could take
- [04:50]
A
breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.
- [04:52]
C
It is an honor to share.
- [04:54]
A
No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor. No, really, stop.
- [05:00]
C
You can really feel the respect in this battle. The pick a meal to pick a side and participate in McDonald's while supplies last. Hey kid, let me ask you guys this. Like, take away the fact that we are NBA centric by job by focus in a lot of ways. Just like as a, as a sports fan, do you prefer when the NCAA product feels like a distinct thing in that way, whereas you're saying, Justin, it's like there are different styles of player that are successful there. There's entire, like, ecosystems in terms of the way you play that just work better on that level. Or do you prefer it to look and feel like the NBA just just slightly different?
- [05:38]
A
I personally liked it because it's almost like getting a different, like, cuisine that is familiar enough to the thing that you're used to eating all the time. I will say, could I have stomached that throughout the course of an entire season? I don't know, because it is slower. And in that title game, UConn could not hit anything. And so there aren't a lot of threes there. And I do like the, like, the dynamic sort of shooting element to the NBA. And so I liked it in a tournament setting where it was like one and done. And I think that adds to the, the appeal of it all. But I do like, it's a different experience. I had fun in this tournament more than I had even in the past years where UConn was more successful.
- [06:18]
B
We got more older players. You know, I think in the fact that we don't have the 24 second shot clock in college leads to more just kind of like pointless actions at the begin. So it can seem a little boring for, for people who aren't used to that product. And I think if you're not paying attention to the shot clock side of it, you might not realize, like, why, why that's happening or why it feels less. Yeah, the other thing too here is that less like a quality product in terms of like, the players on the floor. But the other thing is just that, you know, the NBA is taking the quality creators the moment that they're ready to go. So we're just seeing like 18 and 19 year olds who are sort of like becoming good decision makers in a short clock situation. In the moment that they're ready to leave, they're out of there. So it's just like we're always going to have fewer of those things because the moment you know you're, you're 20, 21 years old, you're, you're, you're leaving that product. So that's just the way it works. There's just fewer. Fewer. Good decision. I also think there's just like a softer basketball brain thing going on when you have younger players out there. Like, like, I don't think that kids. And this gets into a greater kind of developmental kind of conversation about like, I don't think younger, I don't know what the age mark is probably below like 23, 22. You just aren't a good thinker. Like you can't, your attention span isn't as good. You're not as, you're not as familiar with concepts or the speed of concepts at a certain age. So the college product is always going to suffer from that. But overall I think the game is as old as it could be. It's, you know, we've got more older players in the college game, so I think it's been better. The numbers have reflected it too. So, you know, it's been, it's been up across the board. So yeah, yeah.
- [07:55]
A
The Braylon Mullins experience I think is like indicative of that. Where it's like to start with, he can't hit the broad side of a barn. And it's just kind of maddening because it seems like this is the type of player he should be. Why is he not excelling at this exact thing? But then when he does hit big shots, it's more dramatic because you suffered through all of the misses and so that is heightened. And so there's something a little bit more just like visceral, I guess that, that really tugs at the heartstrings and in ways that perhaps the NBA doesn't because it's a little bit more efficiency conscious and everything is so dialed in. But it's nice to have both, you know.
- [08:28]
C
Yeah, well. And yeah, the NBA this season, I mean we can get into it. Been a very weird NBA campaign overall. Very hard to get a grip on. Like, yeah, we know the Thunder are good. Yeah, we know the Pistons are reeling off wins. Yeah, we see these ascendant teams. But between the injuries, the like, what is driving the conversation on a week to week basis around the league, it's just Been such an odd year, I think, for, like, the soul of NBA basketball. And I'm. I don't know how to make sense of it right now. I. I won't. I wonder how we'll think of this time in retrospect, but in the present tense, it's hard to feel, like, overwhelmingly great about where the NBA is. And I say that despite the fact that we're probably just weeks away, days away at this point from some pretty incredible playoff basketball. This is just a different thing. In the regular season, I would take
- [09:15]
A
it a step further. Like, I think this is the worst NBA season since I've started covering the league almost 20 years ago. Like, this is the least amount of fun. And I say this as someone who's going to watch the basketball regardless. This isn't about any sort of personal preference poking through that. I don't want to indulge in this stuff. I do. We talk about this twice a week for multiple hours a day. This is, like, what we do. I just. It's just there's something missing here. You know, it's the tanking, it's the injuries. It's just everything. There's just a giant pall over the league. And it's funny because I was reading in anticipation of this pod, like, about Nikola Jokic column, and it started like, another electric NBA season is in the books. I was like, what the fuck have you been watching? It hasn't been relevant for months at this point. Like, since the All Star break, there have been, like, a couple games. But because it's such a morass at this point, you really have to, like, stop. If you're a casual fan, you. You have to stop what you're doing and identify those games well in advance. But there doesn't seem to be even, like, a hoopla going into them in the same way that it typically would for marquee matchups. And so it's been a slog. I'll be honest. I'm excited for the playoffs. But overall, this has been a pretty down year for the NBA when you're
- [10:24]
C
losing, like, regular season devotees like us, and we're desperately looking for things to get excited about. I think that speaks to there being a larger problem.
- [10:34]
B
They didn't. Did they lose you?
- [10:37]
C
I mean, just that. Just that we are wandering around trying to figure out what there is around the league right now to get excited about. And normally it feels like things are popping up all the time, right? There are developmental stories, there are teams on the rise, and there's, like, versions of Those things happening. But it all feels muted in a way that I can't quite put my finger on. And maybe it is the Paul that Justin's alluding to, but they're just. There's a funk around the league right now that I think even people who live and work in it are experiencing. And certainly guys like us are trying to figure out what it means.
- [11:09]
B
Yeah, I think, I think at worst, I think we're like, symptom conscious maybe, you know, because I, I have people. There's a guy who's going to work on our roof that was here yesterday was like, asking me if he's like, you like, you like basketball? You don't get tired of it? I was like, I. This would be a miserable job. And I wanted to make something clear too, for people because we get a lot of, like, they. People saying, you know, they don't want to hear woe is me. Like, I'm not. When we talk about, like, I mean, this, this spins into the 65 game thing. It's just like, I'm not, like, I'm not miserable because of the 65 game. It's not causing me stress or anything. It's just in the, in the context of, of this, of the award type thing, it's just frustrating to see. It's frustrating to see deserving players who have like, odd circumstances. That's all it's about. But then also, I don't know, man, we've had a lot of like, what's wrong with the NBA conversations. I don't think the causality is one to one or direct. Like, this pool ball, hit this pool ball. This is why I think it's a lot of things, like, I think just broadly, if you're going to just kind of herd them into a corner, like it's a flock of things. If I were the shepherd, I'd be like, okay, every game's on like 10 different networks. We have way too many games. The social media climate right now, I think is like causing the inventory of like, do people want to sit down? And I think podcasts are kind of going through some of this too. It's just like the inventory of the bite size breakout of the thing versus do you have the attention span to sit down? I think there's some, like, broader things you can talk about.
- [12:39]
A
How, Kyle?
- [12:40]
B
I don't know.
- [12:40]
C
I think the podcast industry is booming. I think it's going super great.
- [12:43]
B
No, I mean, it's just like, you hear all these player podcasts and I'm like, oh, there's just great breakout clip. And I'm like, I personally never have listened to an entire. Maybe I have, but not many. I don't know. You just get into societal things like is our boomer generation. Are their brains rotted because of short video scrolling? I've witnessed this firsthand. That's going on. We got a lot of shit going on. That's all. I don't know if it's any one thing they need to shorten the season. The tanking. It's. It's a lot. It's a lot to. I don't envy Adam Silver.
- [13:11]
A
Yeah, you hit two things there that it's just. I want to touch on. I do think the 65 game rule, it's become such an issue because sports, and specifically the NBA about rewarding individual excellence and you have just made it more difficult to do so, which diminishes the entire thing. And for a big ol regular season that is so many games which we talked about ad nauseam, like, this is one of the things you could signpost to get you toward the end. You've just made that more of a trudge toward the end as opposed to something that you're excited to really dive into and like really explore and talk about with you guys on the show. I do think Kyle's right, though, but it feels like the NBA has thrived in modern times in part because of the discourse. Like, there was a huge dissonance where if you look just online or on podcasts, like, the NBA seems as big as the NFL, but we all know that was never the case and it certainly isn't the case now. I do think the fact that there are so many voices pelting you all the time and that is primarily the way people consume it as opposed to the games. With NFL, I think the fact that it has started to sour, the sourness has started to really, like bounce off the walls pretty loudly and it's hard to ignore. And so it's almost like a victim of our own success as a basketball discourse that like, when things are bad, you're going to hear them more loudly than with the NFL because people just do that a little bit more casually.
- [14:27]
C
Well, so how do we fix it? Do we turn down the sour today? Are we cranking up the sweet?
- [14:30]
A
No. If anything, I don't like most of these awards. MVP is interesting this year and we should say like that that's a legitimate conversation for the first time in a little while for sure.
- [14:42]
C
You want to dig into it.
- [14:44]
A
Kyle, do you have something you want to get to.
- [14:45]
B
I just. Well, I want to spin it back the other way too. It's just like, you're right. I mean, if you get caught up in listening to the negativity. Yeah, it's real easy to get pulled down into that pit of just, you know, all the time like that. Everything is super dire. There's a lot of cool stuff going on, man. I mean, in terms of like, you know, unique players playing in the NBA, we have some, like, historically all time special players going on that we can get in more specific. There's some nice developmental stories. I think in terms of improvement, it's not all bad. I think most. Most of the. Most of the bad is just like the not contrivance because that, I think that implies maybe where the mindset of the. Of the fan and the media is right now. It's. It's the packaging of the NBA product, I think is more the issue right now. There are little things like how the game's being called, you know, the Armbar argument, things like that. Like we have weird officiating things here and there. Like, there are a lot of basketball things to be excited about. So I definitely don't. I want to stop short of like, let's barrel over the cliff in. In our momentum, our negative momentum. It's. There's a lot of good.
- [15:49]
C
Well said.
- [15:49]
A
How about this? Just go outside. It's gorgeous out there. I just planted some carrots yesterday. God damn it. It's okay to do other things. You don't. Everyone, like, just wants to be one thing all the time. Just like, go, go have other interests. It's okay to be a hardcore NBA fan, but go fucking, like, look at some seeds for some cool lettuce, man, what life's about.
- [16:11]
C
What do you think the coolest lettuce is?
- [16:13]
A
Yeah, I planted some little gem, which I. I love some little gem, of course. And then the next one was more of like a multi, like, salad mix sort of thing. Okay. And then even in the carrots, I switched it up. I got some. I forgot what they're called, but they're like.
- [16:27]
B
You planted multi salad mix like from a grocery store where they like mix together or.
- [16:32]
A
No, the seeds are.
- [16:34]
B
Did you just sprinkle well before they
- [16:36]
A
get into the bag? Yes. But also the carrots, I got the normal ones. Then I got some cool ones. They got like tricolors.
- [16:43]
B
Yeah.
- [16:43]
C
Rainbow in there.
- [16:44]
A
Hell yeah, man. Will they work? We'll find out.
- [16:47]
C
We will find out. I will say, Justin, you've been telling us that you've been. You've been eating a lot of bagged salad in your life. I think we need an official update, maybe even like a social media blast the day that you harvest your variety of lettuces to create your own garden raised salad. Like, we're going to need to see it. We're going to need to hear about it. It might be an emergency pod.
- [17:06]
B
We need a camera crew.
- [17:07]
A
Yeah, I was going to save garden corner until the end of this pod, actually. I was going to hit you guys updates, but since we're already there. We're already here.
- [17:15]
C
Let's do it.
- [17:17]
A
I'll just do this briefly before we get into the MVP conversation.
- [17:20]
B
People are going to kill us.
- [17:23]
A
There'll be little, like, jump to points in the. In the description there.
- [17:27]
B
Pay attention to the jump. Two points if you're.
- [17:29]
A
Yes, go ahead. Go ahead. I guarantee if you looked at the listening like hour by hour, minute by minute, this would be number one because people fucking love the garden.
- [17:36]
C
This is the peak
- [17:39]
A
we're direct sowing this year. Okay. I missed the winter months where I could have sowed. I could have planted the seeds indoors. But because the starts are so much more expensive than the seeds, I want to use the seeds. And also, like, some things I've learned because I've just fucking crammed Instagram reels down my throat over the past month and I feel like I know everything. I'm emboldened by. I have the confidence of someone who has just watched a ton of shit on the Internet.
- [18:07]
C
That's us on this podcast every week.
- [18:09]
A
So it tracks, but we're direct sewing as opposed to going with the starts. And so this is some real advanced stuff. And we need to check in a couple weeks from now to see how they're going. Cause if it doesn't go well, I probably fucked myself for the entire season.
- [18:22]
C
So if you check into a pod and you just look like a man who has been defeated by life, we will know that it's because the rainbow carrots didn't take more. So just didn't work out.
- [18:31]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [18:33]
B
Okay.
- [18:34]
A
All right. Why don't we take a break and then we'll come back and talk about the MVP. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. This NBA season on FanDuel, it's all about the boost. Because game days mean your chance to boost your bet and make every play pay off. That's right. All customers get a profit boost token tonight. So every bucket counts a little more. So we're looking at the NBA slate for Thursday and there is a huge matchup on the docket. That's right. I'm talking Pacers at Nets. Nets are favored plus three and a half for some reason. I know they've been better in air quotes this year, but I think this game matters a lot to them because they don't have much margin to lose here in terms of the tank race. I think if they win another game they'll be tied with the the Jazz and Kings. So they need this one. This is a big game. This is probably one of the biggest Nets games in recent history. So give me the Pacers -3 and a half who don't need this as much because they have a two game cushion. And so I have to imagine the Nets are going to try to lose this no matter what. Maybe they'll even incur a fine if they need to. But yeah, I just don't see the Nets wanting to win this game at all costs. And so Pacers over the Nets minus three and a half. So lock in your bets, boost your odds and make every night count with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com RingerMBA to get started. 21 select states or 18 DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. All right, MVP curious Rob, how you felt in terms of the difficulty of this decision? I think in years past it's been like one guy or the other. This time there are three guys in the running for it. But did you find yourself changing your mind throughout this process or did you feel like throughout most of it North Star this guy is it. And even as you dug into it this week, like yeah, it seemed pretty clear it was this guy.
- [20:38]
C
I think on feel I've been pretty North Star for most of this season but of course once you start digging in and making the arguments with yourself about this guy versus that, you just go around the carousel. I also think maybe not even a three guy race, but a four guy race if Luka Doncic is eligible as well. So we'll have to kind of revisit. I'm operating under the assumption today that until we're told otherwise, Luka and Cade are going to be off the table. Maybe they will be ruled eligible by exceptional circumstances, maybe they won't. But I'm going to wait to hear that. And so as it stands and we can talk about this too. For me personally, I don't really see there being any difference between MVP and a positionless all NBA ballot. So usually my 1 through 5 is basically my all NBA first team. They're both measures of value. They're both assessing the top players in the sport and among those players, I don't think there has been anything more valuable this season than the consistency that Shay Gilgis Alexander has brought to the Thunder with his scoring, with his all around play. We can dig into it, but that's kind of where I start ballot wise.
- [21:37]
A
Okay, Kyle, you, did you labor over this? Did you feel like one guy was,
- [21:42]
B
was it for you over the journey of the season? I labored over it obviously. I don't think I ever kind of had the unwavering gaze that just was fixated, you know. And you know, I definitely had other thought processes where. And you heard him on the show. I mean I thought for a minute about. Well, initially when I came into the season I was thinking Jokic and I was kind of on the Jokic Shay thing. And then Wimby, I guess after Christmas into the early spring started to sort of like, you know, we can get into more of his defensive side of the ball and his candidacy for other awards I think dictated some of this versus the offensive, you know, prowess of, of Shai and Jokic. Granted Shea is a two way player. I ended up not really fretting a ton over this. I think all three but at the same time I do think that you could come away think, you know, picking any one of these three guys and, and have really, really compelling arguments because Jokic is having a phenomenal stat. Wimby also, you know, has too is, is ahead of schedule. The thrill of that has been a lot of fun but I ultimately arrived at like the consistency, the you know, intricacy that, that Shay has to the best team in the league by a wide margin. If you took him off of that team, they would not be the same at all. I think that's an interesting discussion that we could talk about these, these teams separately without these players, what would it look like? But I think it's, I think it's Shay.
- [23:08]
A
I had Shay as well and I agree with you guys. I think when you get down into the weeds of this, Jokic's argument just becomes so tough to ignore just because the empirical evidence is so overwhelming. He I think has pretty much assured himself that he's going to lead the league in NBA or lead the league in rebounds and assists. And it's the first player to ever do so. That's pretty fucking good. But I think you guys are right. It's not only that Shay has caught up in the Catch all metrics, which is like, I think notable because usually Jokic just dominates those in a way that Shay kind of just pales in comparison. Um, I think it's the clutch production as well. Shai has had one of the best clutch seasons in recent memory. And he's just like. When you think about in the broad sense, like what is an mvp, who's the most valuable player, it's being able to thrive in those moments. But I think you're right. I think it's the consistency. And especially in contrast to Jokic, where Shai broke the record in 20 point games this season. In fact, the last time I looked this up, he did not reach 20 points was October 30, 2024, in which he had 18 points and which is unbelievable. And he's still on this, on this track to add more and more. But also Jokic, when you look back on it, like there was a good two month stretch where he kind of wasn't the guy. Part of that was he wasn't available. He missed an entire month of the season. The Nuggets notably were 11 and 5 during that stretch. Doesn't look good on his case. And also I can't remember an MVP in years past that just missed a solid month of basketball. And we're like, because availability is a big part of this, right?
- [24:44]
C
Sure.
- [24:45]
A
And then when he comes back, he just isn't the same guy. Nuggets were 5 and 7 over the next month or so of basketball. He turned the ball over, like just was willy nilly with it a lot in weird ways that he typically isn't. He shot pretty poorly from three during that stretch. He just wasn't that guy. And so lately he's been lights out. He bests Wemby the other day and we can get into Wemby, Jokic and where they fall on the two, three in your guys ballots. But overall that's like two months of basketball where I'm like, he's either not there or not the same guy. And for me that tilts it in Shay's direction. And so ultimately I thought this was just pretty clearly Shai, even though these three guys I think have very good cases.
- [25:26]
C
I think not only because Shai has been that guy every step of the way for the Thunder through a dominant regular season for the team overall, but he's done it With a lot of guys in and out of the lineup. Right. And I think Jokic can make this argument too, in his way. Right. Who has been available for the Nuggets at various times, what he's had to do as a result. But I think the way Shay has done it, the consistency he brings, you've never had a moment this season where it felt like the Thunder were really faltering, you know, like occasionally they will have a bad shooting night. God forbid they lose like two games in a week. And that's about as bad as it gets. Versus the Nuggets have had some real lows. And that's not all on Jokic, but I'm saying in terms of the leader of the team, an MVP level player, being able to keep the entire roster, the entire group so steady all the time because of what you bring to the table specifically, I just think is tremendously important. And a lot of that comes from. Shai is a really good defender in his own right, having a great defensive season. But who he is allows them to load the roster and load lineups with defense first. Players who don't have to handle the ball. It allows them to put multiple bigs on the floor. It allows them to crowd passing lanes. Like, when you look at who the next highest players for the Thunder are in terms of minutes played, it's all guys who don't need the ball to be effective in their various ways. And a lot of that is because Shay can navigate tight spaces. He can create for you in all circumstances, the foul drawing, whatever you may think of it makes him almost immune to a bad shooting night. He's just so resilient as a scorer. And when you think about what makes the Thunder effective, naturally you go to defense first. But he is making that defense possible. He is kind of like the number one reason why they have the most dominant turnover margin in the league. Because he doesn't turn it over and he allows you to play lots of other guys, himself included, who floats force a ton of steals and force a bunch of turnovers.
- [27:14]
B
Yeah, that's. That's an interesting sort of something that I come away thinking. All three of these guys. If you think about basketball as. And this is kind of going back to this stupid Hungry Hippo theory thing that I said a few weeks ago about just that basketball really is. You know, we thought of it for a long time about the. The make miss league and everything. It's just like really, you know, it's an economy of possessions. A basketball, an NBA basketball game is. And if you think about the way these three guys do that affect that idea. Shea, absolutely. What you're saying about him, you know, controlling the ball. I. I want to get to something about Jokic here in a minute on. In that same vein, but I wanted to take a detour here on. This is. This isn't really. This is one of those threads you just kind of pull on and like way more string was there than you thought. Shea, obviously his usage is way different than Wimby and Jokic. Like in the ways that he attacks and gets to. You know, he's a lot. There's a lot more isolation. There's a lot as we. As we know. And he racks up a ton of points. It's what inspires all the like crazy like, are we sure? Kind of mj Kobe wild scoring wing stuff. But if you look at his. His pick and roll numbers are obviously astronomical. This past year he was second in the league only to Luka. Luka's the only guy who had more. More pick and roll possessions than him. So in the top 100, the 100 spot was Franz Wagner at 134. We have way more pick and roll creators than in the past. If you go back like the 100 spot going back a decade was going to have way fewer that than that. I was looking. Shea is 1.206 points per possession in pick and roll. I went back all the way through Synergy's database, which goes all the way back to 2004, 2005. That is the highest volume pick and roll possession season in their database. So what he is doing is like,
- [28:56]
C
that's blindingly efficient and good. Like crazy.
- [29:00]
B
Luca will have games where he's like 1.7. Like he'll have one off games where he. But he's a lot more up and down than Shay. And I think that kind of characterizes Shay's game in and of itself. Is that like Shay. Shay has high spikes, but he doesn't really have low spikes and. And I think. Or low troughs, however you want to put it. So I. That stat I think was insane. And that is kind of one of the main major engines that drives okc. He's. He's just been phenomenal. That all makes sense. I think so.
- [29:25]
A
I think so. I. We all have. We have a quorum here.
- [29:28]
C
I think maybe for the first time in group chat history.
- [29:32]
A
This is very weird that we all agree. Yeah. But Shay would be back to back. There have been 15 instances of that happening. Seven of them, Rob, have come since 2000 so this is actually a pretty regular thing that's been happening over our like really deep basketball watching lives. Duncan Nash, LeBron, LeBron, LeBron twice. That's fucking insane. Steph Giannis, Jokic. And it seems like Shai is on course to happen for that to happen again. Does anything jump out to you as to why that happens? Is it just that like maybe windows are a little bit more defined than ever before?
- [30:10]
C
I mean I do think we are conscious of and hyper conscious of voter fatigue in ways that we probably weren't. And I say we as like a basketball community in previous eras. And so there are constant conversations about should Nikola Jokic be allowed to get this many MVPs in this stretch because it puts him in this particular era and whatnot. And so you do get this sort of baton passing around, I think as a result of some of that. But also like this has felt like the start of a Thunder era. Right. We're going to see how long it stretches, we're going to see what they do in the playoffs, what it ultimately means. And if this is more of a dynasty or more just a team that's consistently good all the time but maybe doesn't win every year, we'll find out. This is Shai's moment and I say that as somebody who I think I voted for Nikola Jokic in five straight years. And this is going to be the first time in that stretch of time that it has felt like the best player in the league has been somebody else. It's, it's an incredible thing and especially an incredible thing for a guard to snare that away from him given everything that Jokic can do, the advantages he has baked in as a rebounder and everything else. But Shai's just been unbelievable and I think it's, it's a worthy time to tip your hat in that sort of back to back capacity based on what he and the Thunder have built.
- [31:21]
B
Well, I was just going to Tack on, he's 27 years old, so we could have three, we could have four or five more years of this, like, like conceivably. And the way that I think his game is going to age well because I think a lot of it is, you know, there is explosion in there, but a lot of it is start, stop physicality hitting kind of mid range shots. Is it crazy to think that we could have six more years of this? What's the, what's the ceiling? I mean it's, you know, 33. Like I think it's possible.
- [31:48]
A
It does feel like it's his moment. Although I will say the recent Jokic surge, like, his march was absolutely blistering. And obviously the Wemby performance against spurs the other day was like a real like, what about like, don't forget about me sort of moment. And I'm curious what you guys think about this award as opposed to like the best player in the world sort of belt situation. Because I don't know, like, I would hear arguments for Jokic is still the best player in the world. It just feels like the resume for Shay was. This speaks to like the consistency argument.
- [32:18]
C
Right?
- [32:18]
A
Just overall, just a little bit more impeccable and better than what Jokic has put forth this actual season. But I don't know. I. I think of those separately. But. Rob, do you think of those as more one thing?
- [32:29]
C
I think they're. They're adjacent. They're mostly overlapping in most seasons in terms of who has had the best season and who is the best player. And I think MVP for me is more the former. Right. It's just like who has, who has had the best comprehensive NBA season of anyone in the league? And that answer, I think is Shay. Because we talked peaks and valleys. We've talked consistently. It's. It's just going to be those are the watchwords with Shay all the time. Because he hasn't had even those blips of a moment from someone like Nikola Jokic, who is setting as high a standard as basically anyone in the league. And yet even he has his rashes of turnovers, even he has his stretches where it's like, you know what, defensively, like, he just has not really been there for a lot good chunks of the season, even relative to the guy he's been in previous MVP campaigns. And so there's just like, no, there's been no flicker at all in Shai's performance that like, oh, he's not an MVP worthy player. Oh, he's not the best player in the league running for months on end. He's just had it every single step. And so these are kind of like the fine lines we're trying to split with a guy like Jokic, who even in those relative downturns has been massively productive because he's still Nikola Jokic. But you gotta pick and choose somewhere. And I think where we pick and choose with this, this particular NBA season is just that Shai has not had one faulty step every, like, throughout the entire year. It's been crazy.
- [33:48]
B
Yeah. Shay, if you look at like, what can efficiently power a winning basketball team, I Think we're just seeing. We're seeing different versions, different methods of skinning the cat where it's like. Yeah, I, I think Shay right now is. I don't. I mean, this isn't a controversial thing to say at all, but. Cause he's the mvp and we all know he's really, really freaking good, but he's the best self creator in the world right now. And I think that the variables that surround his self creation, like protecting the ball. He's a good. He's a really good defender. He's just on a team with like all, all first team defensive, you know, that we don't want to, you know, begrudge him that status just because of that. That. But like, if I were going to look at like the way Jokic impacts the game, I was mentioning sort of the. He ends.
- [34:35]
A
He.
- [34:35]
B
If you just kind of go down the checklist of all the different things that he does, you know, he ends. He ends a ton of possessions with his defensive rebounding. He creates a ton of possessions with his offensive rebound rebounding. He's an incredible individual scorer in his own right. He creates. And he creates more good shots, I think, than anyone else in the world.
- [34:55]
C
He.
- [34:55]
A
He's.
- [34:56]
B
You know, he could score from anywhere on the floor. I think, I think the different sort of categories, silos, whatever it is, columns that, that you want to sort of say like the width of what Jokic does. I do think it's. It's wider and I think that the, the, you know, I think that the high marks for him are higher, but I don't necessarily, you know, if, if you have one really, really effective tool like Shai does. I don't know. I'm just caught between. I, I do think that, that Jokic is overall a more dynamic player, but I, but I think that Shai's a better defensive player. So I don't know. It's kind of like. Does it net out at kind of the same place is kind of the argument that we're left with.
- [35:33]
A
Well, it does kind of transition nicely to the Jokic vs. Wemby sort of debate here because I kind of went back and forth with them at 2 and 3. I ultimately went with Jokic just because toward the end there he had such an emphatic statement. And for all the reasons Kyle's laying out, he is still probably the best offensive player. But in totality it seems like Shay just has it, especially this year in terms of resume. I just don't really know what to do with Wemby. At this point, because he's clearly the defensive player of the year. We'll get nobody. But. Yeah, and that's the thing. It's just like. And this whole. It gets into this old argument where it's like, how much do you weigh defense versus offense? Where it's like, Wemby literally warps the way people play basketball now, and he does it so regularly. And I. I just. I just don't know how to account for that, because all the empirical stuff, the. The statistical stuff isn't as caught up on the defensive side as. As it is the offensive side. And so I almost wonder if there were these big honking statistics for Wemby to suggest, like, how much he suppresses another team's office. There's stuff, but it's just not to the level of sophistication or packaged in a way that's, like, easy to understand for the layman. And so I put Wemby at third, but I would hear arguments for him at two, especially considering what we said with Jokic, Rob, with, like, the two months where he's just like, wasn't there.
- [36:46]
C
Well, let me make the argument, because I did end up with Wemby at 2, and for me, I. What I can't. You know, I went again round and round with these guys. What Jokic does on offense is so unique and so powerful, and what Wemby is doing on defense is so comprehensive, and you hit it. Justin, just in terms of, like, the way he affects the psychology of the game is a unique kind of presence, not just in current basketball, but in the history of basketball. Where I netted out is if there's any argument to be made that Victor Wembanyama is, like, even in Nikola Jokic's class on offense. Like, if they're even in the same world, then I think you need to go Wemby, because they are not in the same world on defense, even remotely. And so it's like, in terms of that greater balance, I think Jokic, I alluded to it earlier, just has not been very good on defense this year. I think there's a million reasons to explain why that might be the case, but it's just the reality of who he is on a nightly basis. And I don't think you would ever say that about Wemby's offense. There might be individual games where it's like, oh, I wish he would have taken these shots. I would wish he would be aggressive in these ways, but he has been, even if you took away the defense, an All Star level offensive player, and then he's also the greatest defensive player in the world. And that I think just tilts ever so slightly, even against the overwhelming mountain of statistical and anecdotal and visual and just like obvious evidence that says Nikola Jokic is fucking awesome all the time.
- [38:11]
B
It's interesting because on offense, if you think about gravitational impact on basketball games in my lifetime, I'm just thinking back probably Prime Shaquille o', Neal, Steph, when he shattered the sort of space on the floor.
- [38:29]
C
Yep.
- [38:29]
B
And Wimby, I mean, I, I, I really, I mean Jokic has, you know, a dramatic spatial gravitational impact in his own right, obviously. But those three. Can you think of any more like that in and of itself? Like, I can't.
- [38:42]
C
I think the only other one I would add is like LeBron at his downhill best. Just like completely broke defenses in a way that felt even unique to other creators. But if that's the class Steph and LeBron and Shaq and Wemby, I mean, it's, it's pretty special stuff.
- [38:57]
A
Yeah. I would say that LeBron tilting things more toward playmaking as your like go to guy as opposed to the more Jordan Kobe mindset of like scoring above all was. And it's more about approach or something that like the best players that we prioritize rather than. I think what Kyle is saying is more just like changing the geometry of the court to a certain degree.
- [39:17]
C
But I think the LeBron part of that is he kind of opened up. I mean, people were attacking mismatches since I mean, anything resembling modern basketball that's been part of the game. But his ability to manipulate as a big playmaker the smallest defenders on the floor and bring them into space and attack them, I think did change the spacing and the geometry of basketball in a lot of ways. Kind of the, the inverted pick and roll through. LeBron became such a weapon. Everyone had to adjust to how to guard it.
- [39:44]
A
Right. I guess Harden would be the, the last guy to throw out there. But was what he did just a iterating on the space and the shooting that Steph kind of set forth? He's its own thing. Like, he kind of like was groundbreaking in terms of heliocentric. I mean, much to the detriment of like watching basketball, I would say. But like probably those five guys. Yeah, yeah.
- [40:06]
B
It's like it's hard to, it's, it's, it's really hard to appraise Jordan and Kobe in that era of basketball even check a little bit because of the illegal defense. Rules and things like that. It's like you could only warp it so much, you know, it'd be interesting to see if they played now or if Shaq played now. Yeah, that's a whole other. Shaq absolutely would just, like, curb stomp the. Like. Like Brian Shaq if it comes up. I'm. I'm around younger guys and pickup. I'm like, you. You weren't there. You know, I start waving my finger. But yeah, I mean, Wimby. Wimby's just. We'll get into it with the defensive thing again. I just. I just think he's probably the best rim protector I've ever seen. The offensive stuff is just growing by the day. You could put him. You could put him two or three here, and I don't think. I don't think it would be an insane thing to do at all.
- [40:54]
A
Yeah, I also, like, we still haven't found a good way to quantify, like, all of the nopes or whatever you want to call it. They're just the TER's actions. Like, just some of the clips where it's like, two to three attempts by the same player on the same possession happens fairly regularly. And so once we get a handle of, like, that just. I just don't know. Like, this is just, like, uncharted territory.
- [41:17]
C
We need a whole taxonomy of these things. I think nopes are worth tracking. I would love to get hell nas of, like, guy drives. And you don't even have to contest it because you know he's going to smoke the layup so bad. Maybe there's a version of this for the shooter.
- [41:29]
B
We're in Hell nas now.
- [41:32]
C
Those are totally different things. How's different? You know that anope and a nope was mine.
- [41:36]
B
I just want to know. Todd Whitehead and I are jockeying for the honor of naming this. That's what I'm saying here. I just want to know if they're different and we can both be victorious. I'm good.
- [41:46]
A
Terror in their eyes, I guess.
- [41:48]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [41:49]
C
Yeah, no, I think the hell nas a little more. I don't even think you could make this just because I'm here and I'm not even gonna contest it, but hell nah.
- [41:57]
B
Okay, okay. It's. It's dismissiveness from Wimby, where, yes, my favorite. My favorite one ever was, I think, Wimby's rookie year. I think I wrote about this. But, yeah, like, Heart on a Break was like, going up for a. Josh Hart was going up for a break, and somebody threw him a lob. Which seemed open. And I think he thought Wimby was nearby. And he didn't even shoot the wide open layup. He kicked it out, which was like. That was like, oh, my God. These dudes are, like, really thinking about this guy. That's interesting. I was thinking about it, like, paint touches that don't lead to field goal attempts, like, we can get there through tracking. I think, like, you know, like, I'm trying to figure out how we could figure, like, time in the paint without a field goal attempt.
- [42:39]
C
Yeah, there would need to be some qualifiers just because, like, some teams run their offense that way. Right. You're using the post as a trigger for other action. And so it's like, technically a paint touch, but, like, Draymond Green was never intending to shoot anyway. So, like, how do you. How do you filter that stuff out? I think would be a complicating factor.
- [42:55]
A
I mean, we've tracked assists forever, which is largely subjective because assists have been muddled for years and years, especially back in the day where there was a ton of home cooking going on. Can we not just, like, gauge intent if someone is watching very quickly? Like, it's not that far of a remove from assist?
- [43:11]
C
I think we just need the manpower.
- [43:14]
B
Once we get the chips in the brains. I think if we can get Elon to get. Every NBA player gets a chip in their brain, and we get. We get certain brain signals that. That indicate intent, and then we just have those feed into second Spectrum.
- [43:27]
A
Get the Minority Report guys on this.
- [43:30]
C
Let's get the Precogs on this. I think we can do Precogs.
- [43:33]
B
Yeah.
- [43:33]
A
Well, Kyle, where did you end up with Wemby? Was he two or three for you?
- [43:37]
B
He was three for me, but it's. That's a coin flip for me. That could go either way, honestly.
- [43:42]
A
I agree. Here's my question. Do you think this is the last year we'll go into a season where Wemby wasn't the favorite for MVP because he definitely feels like he's passed a threshold? And you can make the argument, well, Jokic is definitely going to still be in the mix. Shay's still going to be in the mix. I do wonder if Shai wins two in a row, then voter fatigue definitely kicks in because it did for Jokic, especially last year. I do wonder if Wemby, being the shiny new thing, he will get the Luka treatment, where it's like, I'm just going to pick him every time at this point until he wins one. And honestly, he might win one next year.
- [44:13]
C
Yeah, I think if there is going to be a time for that to turn over, I mean the, the optimism around Wemby is so high. If he has a great playoff in particular and feels competitive and physical and meets the moment, I think he will be the overwhelming pick for next season and, and rightly so, like he deserves that. He's in this conversation already and he's only going to get better, presumably he's only going to be more refined and the team around him will also help prop up some of this stuff even better than it has. Like they're already a 60 win team. But the spurs can take steps that make Wemby an even more compelling candidate.
- [44:45]
B
If you think about like the idea cloud though, that is going to be like these are the things that are going to be outlined kind of questions about Wimby, like things he needs to answer. How big do you, how big in that cloud do you think the north of 29 minutes, north of 28 minutes thing for him is going to be? Because he's going to take a lot more physical toll. Teams are going to be loading up against him schematically, strategically more in, let's say a game goes, I mean it's at least going to go four games. I'm just curious, is that the biggest question that he's going to answer? Because if he answers that, I think we're going to end up where you're talking about. Like where we're just like, okay, like all, all the questions are answered. This guy's the looming presence over everything
- [45:21]
A
now it's number one. And honestly it's all of the like the typical stereotypical ESPN segment sort of things where it's like, how does he fare in a big moment in a playoff? He's literally has not played in a playoff game, a play in game, anything like that. We have never seen him on that stage outside of the Olympics. I guess that is a pretty good gold medal game. Yeah, Test subject for that. But to do so like you have to be there every game. You have to be there in the biggest moments. It really is like do it in the playoffs. To use a former group chat ism, like, let's see it. I think he's going to be great. The fact that they won 61 fucking games, I still can't even wrap my head around that.
- [45:58]
B
But what's their preseason? What was their total like? What was like the fan, 45.
- [46:03]
C
Yeah. Mid to high 40s maybe.
- [46:06]
A
I think we were thinking about them as a play in team, as like this is the Breakthrough year, and then the next year will be the year where everything comes together. It's fucking wild.
- [46:15]
C
By the way, in terms of the minutes played thing, the fewest minutes per game of any MVP was Giannis in 2020. He was, like, right above 30. And so. And. And he's kind of a historical outlier, because after him, it's really guys who are averaging at least 23, 20 or 32, 33 minutes a game. So some exceptions would have to be made if he doesn't take over that. And I. There is something optically about just, like, under 30 that does feel like it would be grabby enough to maybe hold him down.
- [46:43]
A
I agree with that.
- [46:45]
C
I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's just stupid enough to work.
- [46:48]
B
No, I'm. I'm just gonna, like, I. I really don't really dwell a whole lot on those arguments when people start to make them, because it's like, if I were the spurs and I had a generationally special player like Wimby, and people were bellyaching about us, like, taking it easy with him and, you know, utilizing his brilliance in little small spurts, I'd just be like, fuck you. I don't care. We don't care.
- [47:07]
A
Well, I think there's a difference between him and Giannis, because, correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of Giannis's suppressed minutes were because they were blowing teams out so regularly. I think it was the Steph sort of thing where he just wasn't playing late in games because he didn't have to, to a large degree. Whereas with. With Wemby, it's like, there's actual physical, like, things you have to track, and the fact that his body perhaps couldn't get there. And so I do think if that's like, a hindrance, I factor that in. How much? Not a ton. But the fact that he isn't available, I mean, it really comes down to, like, the base things that we expect from, like, good players, which is, like, to be there and to be excellent all the time. And if he's not doing there as often, like, it's in the mix, it's in the word cloud.
- [47:45]
C
Well, we should also note, like, that MVP season from Giannis was also the COVID shortened season. And so it's just. I think there may have just been an openness to all kinds of exceptions, weirdness. Like, we're just trying to do the best with what we've got in this moment.
- [47:57]
A
We're all getting to some shit.
- [47:58]
C
We Were all getting into lots of shit. But part of that shit. It's a worthy mvp, but it is a historical outlier.
- [48:05]
B
So they were blowing teams out. So there's no way that he could have been the clutch player of the year. Right.
- [48:10]
C
Just can't win them all.
- [48:11]
A
I don't think we had it at that point. Right.
- [48:13]
C
Did not. I kind of wish. I kind of wish we didn't have
- [48:16]
B
stupid award, you know, get to the clutch section, because I think it's the stupidest thing in the world. Like, it's.
- [48:25]
A
I didn't even do that one.
- [48:26]
B
Okay, good. It's idiotic. I'm just like, oh, you were in close games. What if you're a good team that underperformed and you're in close games and you hit shots? You know where I'm going with this. It's just so dumb. I hate that a woman.
- [48:39]
A
Just to wrap up MVP, though, who'd you guys have at 4 or 5? You could name literally anybody. I'd be okay with it.
- [48:46]
C
Yeah. So I just did Kawhi, Donovan, Mitchell. That's the same as my first team. If Kate and Luka are eligible, they're going to be on this ballot. So some adjustments may be made.
- [48:55]
B
Kate and Luka are the only two other guys. Yeah.
- [48:57]
A
For me, I have Jalen Brown at 4, and you can tell me one way or another with Mitchell or Kawhi. I'll be honest. I didn't factor in the aspirations stuff with Kawhi for all NBA. For this one, I'm like, how are you the most valuable if you're fucking throwing your franchise into disarray because you're just trying to.
- [49:16]
B
It's the opposite. He's. He's that valuable that they. They had ethical considerations. They were like, I have these kind of ethical boundaries, but Kawhi's so valuable, I have to compromise. Yeah.
- [49:27]
C
How many players are worth violating the salary cap rules for? You know, and really, it's a select class, and Kawhi Leonard is among them.
- [49:35]
A
All right, why don't we take another break? We come back. Let's talk about the rest of these awards. All right. Rookie of the year, another one hotly contested. I feel like this is much more difficult for a lot of other people than it is for me. I feel like it's been con for a little while. I do think this is a very similar debate to Yoka Shea, where it's like best player versus best season. And while I think that flag is the better player and long term will probably be the better player. I think Khan's had one of the best, most special, potentially historic rookie seasons just in terms of a production standpoint than I can remember. Just like the lights out from shooting, just like an absolutely dialed in version of the type of player that he's set to become. And then he's doing it to power as a foundational player for a very good team. The fact that he has a positive plus minus just over on the season, let alone a plus 3.9, is like rookies just don't do that. They aren't positive contributors to a season when it comes to the data. Until that point, I don't believe Flag is for whatever that is worth. But I do think that's indicative of like Khan has been a good driving force of a good playoff team, whereas Flag's been an excellent rookie, still finding his way. And so for that reason I went with Khan.
- [50:51]
C
I think it's totally fair. I agree with you that Khan's been amazing. He'd be a totally worthy winner.
- [50:55]
A
You're going to zag.
- [50:56]
C
I am zagging. Well, here's the thing. I kind of resent the idea that this is a zag. I think this is a very close race. I think it's really again splitting hairs between these two guys. And to me, everything you're describing is true in terms of Khan being foundational in terms of propelling the Hornets forward. All of that is obvious if you watch them play and him play. What Cooper has been asked to do is harder, like fundamentally harder than what Khan has been asked to do this season. He's been asked to do more as a part of that. And I think even while all that has been true, has had a better all around season in terms of what he's been able to put on the floor. And I say that for a bunch of different reasons. I mean he, he handles the ball more than con while turning the ball over less, while setting up his teammates more. I think in terms of the scoring pop, we've seen it of late, but really it's been there all season in terms of what kind of scorer he can be. And productivity wise has been a notch above understandably, given his role. I just don't think you can boil a race like this down to Khan and his circumstances where he gets to benefit from lamelo ball. No look, passes that pass him open. Cooper Flag is his own point guard basically all the time. And to the extent he's ever had one, it was like, here's Ryan Nemhard. Go forth and try to Score buckets. I'm ultimately moved by Cooper's all around game, the differences in their role. And when you think about it from a usage perspective, I mean Cooper Flag is at a level of usage it's like Shangoon Durant, Karl Anthony Towns. Con canipple is at a level of usage that is like Jaime Hawkez, Anthony Black, Evan Mobley. These are not the same expectations, they are not the same baseline in terms of what these guys have to have to produce for their teams and just to get like real intangible with it, I guess in terms of the qualifications, I think we have to acknowledge that Flag has walked into a situation that is just worlds different from what Khan. Like there was no universe in which Cooper Flag gets to be the con caniple, go out and play hard for a team that struggles earlier in the season. Basically no one will care.
- [53:00]
B
I mean, that's just a summary of all the things you said before. I mean, yeah, the circumstances are very different. Yeah.
- [53:06]
C
But those circum. I think the circumstances around the Mavericks because of all the LUCA stuff and this is, I. I'm granting like a very intangible argument, but there's been so much noise and so much chaos around everything boiling up with that team that it does I think get like a little tick in Khan's direction if the other stuff wasn't enough for you already.
- [53:25]
B
A lot of things with that. Yes. The circumstances are like hugely, hugely different. The first thing that I would say is like him like Khan benefiting from Lamelo like he does. Yes. But I honestly think an equal force, possibly even a stronger force is that Khan's steadiness all over the court, I think has been a huge beneficiary to like benefit to, to the Hornets. I was laughing, I was laughing this morning because I was looking at the volume of three pointers this season. Khan has like set records for rookies and he still has not taken nearly as many threes as Lamelo has, which I just find deeply funny and, and just kind of representative. Like, it's just like, come on, man. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Cooper is playing in a team that, you know, the Mavs look awesome. I was writing this in our mock draft that the, the Mavs, when you're looking at like what they need, they just need more creators because Cooper is on ball way more than he's been at any other kind of pass iteration in the past. Like whether it's Duke or Montbird, he has been thrown into it and handled it pretty well. Like the shooting's got to come around. He's got to get more consistent on that. He's a more like dynamic two way player than Khan is. I think people kind of assume that Cooper has more on ball upside and self creator upside than Khan. I'm not 100% sure about that. They go about it totally different ways. Khan's more slow mo, got a little more like mid range game kind of stuff. And Cooper's like flying around athleticism, getting to the rim say all that to say. I just think that Khan's steadiness and the way that he has affected that team and been like kind of a bonding agent to the pieces that they already have there. I don't want to be really quick to discredit that and act like he's just like on his back. And also there's. The other fact of this is that we go to usage a lot. There's a. I tried to coin this at one point and it failed miserably. But gravity I think is the word just anti usage which is just like the things that he does around the ball when it's moving have a great impact. Because Zach said it on his show, Bill said it. A lot of people have said he's already one of the best shooters in the world. I don't think that's hyperbole at all. So I think all those things kind of add up to him getting a narrow win over con. How did Duke not win the title that year? Holy fucking shit.
- [55:32]
A
He's eighth in three point percentage in the entire NBA. When you whittle it down to just volume shooters. So taking over five a game, he's second to Jamal Murray. Yeah, he's already one of the best shooters in the league. I quibble, I guess when it comes to how much credence you would give Cooper because of the context where it's just like that team isn't like awful. I recognize they're pretty bad. I don't think they're that bad. I think, I think, I think your lamelo bias is also showing where it sounds like you think that he's like prime Jason Kidd over here, just like opening up opportunities for Khan. The usage also isn't like. I mean they're using possessions differently. But overall usage is like. It's, it's, it's like marginal. It's like 4 to 5% difference.
- [56:21]
C
4 to 5% is not marginal in usage. That's a dramatic difference.
- [56:25]
A
It's like 22 to 26.
- [56:27]
C
Yeah, it's like that's the difference between like All Star Level usage versus like a good supporting player on a team usage.
- [56:34]
A
I think if it was like 15 to 30 or something.
- [56:37]
B
The ladies, the. All the ladies just turned it turned on the pot just now. Oh, boy. Fading themselves.
- [56:44]
A
I. I just don't think it's. I don't think it's as big as a gap as. As you're giving. And also like, here's the thing with Cooper.
- [56:49]
C
Big.
- [56:50]
A
I don't think so. I, I think with Cooper, I. I think if you want to he. The production is there. He hasn't been terribly efficient overall, though. And so that is the main difference there where it's like con's been just like absolutely dialed in from the start. I feel like Cooper's had like a pretty typical superstar trajectory rookie season where he's been incredibly productive, not terribly efficient on a bad team and like, that's good on most years to win you Rookie of the Year. I would say outside of Wemby, like, this reminds me of Brandon Miller and Wemby where it's like, Brandon Miller had a very good rookie season, but Wemby was on a different level. Obviously Khan isn't Wemby, but he's just doing something differently in a way that rookies typically don't.
- [57:27]
B
And I kind of checked the other one that year though, right? Wasn't it Chet and Wimby? Because Chet missed the year and he was a rookie.
- [57:34]
A
He did.
- [57:34]
C
He did miss his rookie.
- [57:35]
B
That doesn't matter.
- [57:36]
C
I think that 1, 2, 3 was also like a pretty competitive race overall. Like, I think it was a good.
- [57:40]
A
It's been a while, but I think Chet was. Maybe he was injured for a lot
- [57:43]
C
of the year, too.
- [57:43]
A
I just remember it coming down to him and Miller, but I don't know. I just think there's a difference there in terms of this thing doesn't happen all that often. With Cooper, it's like, yeah, great rookie season, great player. It's a little bit more typical to what we're used to.
- [57:59]
C
It's typical, but it's typical, as you said among superstars, it is a superstar prospect that we're seeing in a normal superstar rookie context.
- [58:08]
A
He's going to be the better player, certainly. But that's not kind of what we're arguing.
- [58:11]
C
Here's the thing, like, if I can't convince you and I say I. And by that I really mean, like watching the Mavericks and the Hornets in context and say, like, these two guys are not asked to do the same things, then there's really nothing I'm going To say that's going to sway you because like the efficiency is a result because you're wrong.
- [58:26]
A
And that's the problem.
- [58:28]
C
Con is awesome. Like, he's. I think Khan is probably going to win this award. It's going to. It's an amazing rookie season. There's no problem.
- [58:35]
B
Backpedal back.
- [58:37]
C
I'm not backpedaling in any particular direction. I love Con Knippel. I just. I just think Cooper's been better and I think the defense is not an insignificant gap between them. I think in terms of what they're asked to do from a playmaking perspective, all of that matters to me. And Khan's job is just easier. And it's. It's easier to be good when what you're asked is like a little less and a little less demanding. And you can be. I mean, you can, you can channel into all these other aspects of your game. When you have a team around you that makes sense and the Hornets have a team that does make sense. Khan is a huge part of the reason why that is true. But Cooper, for as good as he's been, can't fix what is wrong with the Mavs. Like their, their problems are running a little deeper at this point and I don't blame him for that. But it's a reason why some of the efficiency numbers are what they are.
- [59:21]
B
I'd like to see. And since we don't have these anymore, but I'd like to see like screening stats away from the basket with Con because, like, I think that's a big part of his shooting. Gravity and his screening are really, really valuable. I don't know, man. Circumstances are always the thing that makes make these conversations so hard.
- [59:37]
A
They're tough.
- [59:37]
C
They're tough.
- [59:38]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [59:41]
A
Who'd you guys have at three?
- [59:43]
C
I think it's VJ and I didn't really think too hard about it.
- [59:46]
B
Yeah, same.
- [59:47]
A
I didn't either.
- [59:48]
C
There's not even like an honorable mention. Like Dylan Harper, I guess. Good season. Lots of good rookies. We ran through with our old rookie teams, but this is, this is a two man race.
- [59:57]
A
Uh, I wanna do Most Improved.
- [59:59]
C
I would love to.
- [60:02]
A
I think it's the most interesting one left here. Even though it is a pretty difficult one to unpack. I found myself in a really weird place where I'm. I've always been against awarding lottery picks or just highly drafted players who ultimately just reach their trajectory. And for that reason, I don't have Jaylen Duran on my list. I think he's been better than what we expected, but he's still in his third year. He was the 13th overall pick. Like, this is. This is kind of typical. I think what we should be rewarding with this award is guys who fundamentally change who they are, even if they were highly drafted in the past, which is a little bit of a nod there. But then I got into this weird zone where like, I think it's either Donnie Denny Abdia or Nikhil Alexander Walker.
- [60:47]
C
Yeah.
- [60:48]
A
How much do I ding Denny because he hasn't been good down the street stretch. Whereas Nikhil has been fairly steady overall. The jump from nine points per game to like in the 20s is. Is just as significant as Denny's basically completely changing the face of his game and becoming one of the better creators and fall drawers in the league. But Denny hasn't been as good. And how much does being good ultimately like, for. For the entire body of work matter when we're trying to reward someone who's changed who they are? Does that make sense?
- [61:16]
C
It does make sense. I do think it matters because when we're thinking about improvement, what you're really talking about is like, have you reached this next plateau of stability where you can do this thing all the time? And if you are limited in your ability to do it because of injury, if you're limited in your ability to do it because you rely so heavily on officiating, like, I think those are qualifiers. And I say that as someone who I was just kind of assuming that Denny was going to be the guy for me. He has for most of the season. His jump has been awesome. I never would have anticipated this for him in terms of the trajectory of his career and the kind of all NBA worthy candidate that he is right now and can ultimately be. But I do think over the last 30 games, Nikhil has kind of stolen this thing away. And some of that is the way the Hawks have played. A lot of it obviously is Nikhil within that. I think the ability to jump in terms of three point attempts in the way that Nikhil has is something we don't talk about a lot. Like how difficult it is to go from putting up like four, five threes a game to eight, nine threes a game. Those aren't just like he's spotting up and the passes are coming his way. He is working constantly to make himself open enough to take those shots. And I say that because he is a high level threat. The defenses are focusing on and trying to take away those attempts. And he's doing it in spite of that. And so the huge jump in scoring the way that he's scoring, all without giving up any efficiency, all without giving up any of the elite defense he's been playing all season. I think I'm ultimately moved towards Nikhil, even though Denny's been awesome and I really thought I would be there in the end and I just couldn't be. I just couldn't talk myself into him quite as much.
- [62:49]
B
Yeah, I think when you approach the kind of philosophy of this award, I think they're the things like Justin was talking about, about how, you know, I don't really want to pat somebody on the head if they were, if they came in with the investment, literal monetary investment of, you know, we expect you to be a central piece of this. There's a kind of implied arc that, you know, as you level up. I'm not inclined to like really pat those guys on the head and reward them for that. Then there's the cases of like a Keonte George who like, I think at our mid season thing I said I thought was the most improved, but he got the car back on the road. Granted, he wasn't a lottery pick. He was a little bit later.
- [63:25]
C
We should also flag Keonte among the players who aren't eligible for this award because of the 65 game rule. So I think he might be on my ballot if he was.
- [63:33]
B
But it makes me so mad at the 60, you know, I'm so mad that I have to deal with the 65 game award thing. I just want to.
- [63:40]
C
You guys should hear this. That says offline about the 65 game rule. He just will not shut up about it.
- [63:44]
B
I just wring my hands. My wife's like, kyle, come back to this, you know.
- [63:48]
A
No, no, I just brooding in a corner.
- [63:51]
B
Yeah, yeah. I'm just like, good, good. The other thing too is that you kind of look across the league and you think about opportunity and, and you think about how many guys. There are so many good players in this like talent rich league that we follow now who, if they got opportunity to just play more minutes. If you look at like, if you look at some of these guys, like Porter Jr. Did he fundamentally change when he went to Brooklyn? It's just like, it's probably a case of opportunity. You look at Jamal Murray, got some more opportunity, put up points. We know he could do that. Nikhil Alexander Walker, his jump is one of the crazier things that I've ever seen in terms of just raw production. Like it jumps off the page. Yeah, I got, I got thinking about it though, and I'm Just kind of like this. This award should reward development. I think at its core. Like we should reward guys who you're talking about fundamentally changed who they are. I don't think this guy is going to win the award. I think I might surprise you with what I'm going to say. But when I look at what he did, where he came from, I think Namias Kate is like. Ascendance is pretty remarkable. If you look at somebody who started the league, came in the league 21, 22, played 15 games. He didn't start a basketball game until last season and he's been in the league for five seasons. He is now the capable of. I would say he's. Would you say he's an above replacement level or at least close starter on a team that is like predicted to probably come out of the East? That's pretty incredible, man. I think that's one of the more incredible developmental stories that I've seen this year. I just really wanted to put a. Put a pin in that one because we're drawn to those other guys. But I think this is a developmental award. I know it's never going to be, but I think it should be.
- [65:27]
C
Yeah, I think like Keda to me, in terms of the most important development, like the mo. Like he is not the most improved, but the improvement he's made has been so critical to the Celtics success. Like they would not be having this kind of season. We would not be talking about them as contenders, maybe even favorites in the Eastern Conference if Nima Esqueda had not taken this kind of jump. And so you're right, it's a little subtler. It's a little more like you have to understand his own basketball journey from a developmental perspective to really get a sense of it. Because it's not a Nikhil level jump in points per game, which is where a lot of these awards tend to go. But it is a hugely significant development for him, but also just for Boston and for the greater Eastern Conference as a result.
- [66:09]
A
Yeah, I had Kate as my last cut for all the reasons Kyle laid out there. I wanted to get him on there. But ultimately I leaned Ryan Rollins for that last spot because the is a similar thing. The 0 to 60 guys, I think are just gonna pop a little bit more than some of these other ones who are a little bit more subtle. And to go from a player who's just cycling through teams, both of these guys were. I mean, Rollins was on the warriors, he was on the Wizards. And then ultimately actually found himself not only as just like A player, but all of a sudden a very good player. I think he's been on our top 100 list practically the entire season. That's significant. And so I wanted to reward them, but ultimately for me it was Denny or Nikhil. I went Denny overall just because I guess I'm a fucking homer. But I just. I just think the jump that he's had from role player to the guy he is now is just like something that like we haven't seen. Like in terms of like the biggest jumps between who you were to like what you became. Like we're talking Siakam, we're talking Kawhi. Like he is on that level. And to not reward that in some way just because he's been hurt down the stretch to me wasn't enough of a reason. I think you could also quibble with the fact like maybe he should have won this last year. But honestly the difference between numbers and production, specifically with playmaking and file drawing is way more significant from last year to this year than it was three years ago to two years ago. And so I went Denny, Nikhil Rollins.
- [67:29]
C
Yeah, I think we can keep the Blazers swear jar closed on this one. Like praising Denny Avdia for being good is about as normal a take as you could possibly have, especially relative to the Donovan Klingon as Rudy Gobert have been normal.
- [67:43]
A
And if anything have have proven to be true, including that fucking mid off. I don't know if you've checked, checked the stats there lately.
- [67:52]
C
The mid off has been rough.
- [67:53]
A
You know, like the magic number is one just for the people at home here. You need to win out, I need to lose out. There's two games left for both. I'm feeling pretty good.
- [68:02]
C
I think you should feel good. I think we still need to suss out what the punishment for that is going to be like how Portland I need to be in my response. I don't know what the proper costuming is. I mean the flannel's good, I think go without saying, but what else could
- [68:15]
B
we do that doesn't tax you at all to put on? We gotta. You're not gonna get off that easy. We need the ideas from the chat.
- [68:22]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll definitely take ideas. Hit up the email. Ringer Group chat.
- [68:28]
C
Ringer group chat. Gmail.com.
- [68:30]
B
rob's like, I should wear a band shirt and a flannel.
- [68:33]
C
That would be so hard.
- [68:34]
A
I'm glad that you mentioned that. What if he had to wear a band shirt? But it's just my face on it and you had to wear it for all of the podcasts you're doing throughout.
- [68:44]
B
It's gotta be something he hates. It's gotta be, like, the office or something. I'm trying to think.
- [68:49]
A
So you're on. You're on Bill's podcast, talking to millions of people, and it's just my fucking face being.
- [68:54]
C
Let's do it. Honestly, I would love it. And frankly, it might stick in my wardrobe beyond just that week. So let's. Let's cue it up. Let's make it happen.
- [69:02]
A
All right. Who else did you want to go through your. Your ballots real quick?
- [69:05]
C
Yeah, so I did Nikhil. One, Denny two, Jalen Duran, three. I do think this race, in terms of what will actually happen in the voting, has really crystallized around Four guys like those three, plus Jalen Johnson, I think, are going to get a lot of votes. I went Duran over Jalen Johnson over. Keita over. Ryan Rollins over, like, Colin Gillespie. I think there's a lot of good role players who are, like, should be noted here as well. But I think Duran, yes, he is a former lottery pick. Yes, he's had a lot of investment, but he has shifted the way that opposing teams think about him over the course of this year, and in particular, the transformation from, like, Dunkbot to a guy who catches in the high paint and converts, like, difficult, contested, crowded attempts. That's how you go from like, 11 points to 20 points. That's a really meaningful shift from good player to great player.
- [69:54]
B
Dunkbot, that's what he was.
- [69:56]
C
Catch and finish, you know?
- [69:57]
B
Did you make that up? I like that nickname, Dunkbot. Yeah. Okay.
- [70:00]
C
I'm trying.
- [70:01]
B
I didn't. I didn't build out a whole list. Like, I didn't know. I thought we were just picking a person. I had. I had Alexander Walker, but.
- [70:07]
A
Okay, fair enough.
- [70:08]
B
Shouts to Kata, though.
- [70:10]
A
Defensive player of the year. Easiest one in, I think this is.
- [70:13]
B
We don't even pull off the road, do we? We can just wave and drive by this one, I think. Right.
- [70:18]
A
Unanimous. Wemby probably going to get.
- [70:20]
C
What would you guys do if Wemby is not eligible? If he does not. If he's not able to play the one game he needs to play.
- [70:26]
A
We're gonna go Chet, and you're gonna go. Go Bear.
- [70:28]
C
No, I'm going Chet.
- [70:29]
A
Okay.
- [70:30]
C
Yeah. Interesting. I mean, Chet, the Chet case is basically like posing.
- [70:33]
A
That was that. You were setting up a zag.
- [70:35]
C
I just wanted to make sure that we're all on the same page about this one as well. Like, Chet has been any other year.
- [70:40]
A
Fastball, you gave me the curveball. And that's usually how that goes.
- [70:43]
C
Is it how it goes?
- [70:44]
A
You just went full heat.
- [70:45]
C
We're in alignment, Dustin. You know, you and I, the older we get, we're just fully synchronizing in all aspects of our lives.
- [70:52]
B
Yeah, I just feel like.
- [70:55]
C
I think it's beautiful, but different strokes.
- [70:59]
B
I just feel like Chet is the Salieri to Wimby's Mozart. I just feel like, you know, I'm pretty, you know, hey, guys, I'm pretty fucking good. And he's never granted that doesn't one to one perfectly work. But it's just a loss. These cursed days for again, for Chet, that he's a special defensive player. I mean, he just. He wins, wins, wins no matter what. And I'm not going to complete that. But Chet's Chet special. Justin could see me thinking about
- [71:26]
A
that jock jam.
- [71:29]
B
I thought Justin could see me thinking about finishing that off and not doing it. And that's why I left. But yeah, Chet is just super, super special, man.
- [71:38]
A
Can I just give you this? That Wemby has 195 blocks over 63 games. The second most in blocks per game is Jay Huff. 140 in 79 games. So Wemby has 55 more blocks in 16 fewer games than the guy who is at second.
- [71:57]
C
Yeah, but how many nopes and how many hell nos?
- [72:00]
A
Probably quadruple that.
- [72:02]
C
One can only imagine. It's. This could be like an absolute lock of an award for a long time. We've mentioned it before, but I. It's hard to imagine a version of Wimby's career in which he is healthy and not challenging. Like the Gobert level records for like total defensive player of the year wins.
- [72:21]
A
You have Gobert third.
- [72:23]
C
I do have Gobert third.
- [72:24]
B
Yeah, same. I was going to say if you go back over. I did go back and look over history. MVP candidates that were also like Defensive Player of the Year, like flirting with it. And it's not. They're not a ton of them. I mean, you have to go back to like. Like Duncan and Garnett kind of had a run there in the early 2000s where they were in consideration for both. And then it's like even Jordan, like, he flirted with it, but it's not a common thing.
- [72:49]
A
Yeah, for sure. Sixth man. The dumbest award on the books here. I'll just do my usual spiel that I don't care who wins this because it just rewards someone who excels. But Isn't good enough in order to do that within the context of a starting lineup. Stupid. It's a relic of the past. I get that it mattered more late like early on because they wanted to reward bench guys. Don't need it anymore. But congrats to Jaime Hawkez. You're good off the bench.
- [73:16]
C
Jaime Hawkez should win. Like, I mean he's. He is involved at a different level than anyone else who's in consideration for this award. Like I. This one did feel pretty easy. Although I'm with you that it. It is always a little bit silly.
- [73:30]
B
Kyle Hawkez, hive. Yeah. I mean it's between him and Kelden and Nas basically. Right. Those are the three.
- [73:36]
A
That was my battle.
- [73:37]
B
Yeah.
- [73:38]
C
Rob. I have Jaime, Tim Hardaway Jr. And in the third spot because we should note the 65 game rule does not apply to six. Man of the Year. I went AJ Mitchell, third spot.
- [73:49]
B
Fair.
- [73:52]
C
Keldon Johnson's having a really good season, by far the most promising of his career in terms of what he can ultimately be. I think it's telling though. Like, AJ Mitchell is very clearly a starting level player who is asked to come off the bench because his team is very good. And Keldon Johnson, they tried for like four years to make that guy a starter and it did not work. And he was forced to go with his tail between his legs to the bench.
- [74:14]
A
And he has reinvented between his legs.
- [74:17]
C
That's what happened.
- [74:17]
A
His coyote tail.
- [74:18]
C
I mean, there were questions about whether he was going to be a part of their rotation, their core, in literally any sense. And it's to his great credit that he has reinvented himself as a bench scorer. Oh, but Keldon Johnson is not as good as AJ Mitchell. Like those guys are different classes of player to a point where like, yeah, There is a 400 minute gap between them and I'm completely comfortable with it because A.J. mitchell's a lot better than Keldon Johnson is.
- [74:41]
A
Yeah. Talking about reinvention, that Kelton has basically become a bully ball bench scorer is not something I really saw for him. It is a good use of him and I'm glad that he's like kind of found his footing. But you're right. Like I didn't realize that you can go outside of the 65 game rule for this. Another reason why this is the dumbest fucking award that we give. Maybe dumber than Clutch Award, honestly. AJ's the better player, certainly. But if we're going by like typical metrics and like he scores the most points off the bench for sure, I'll lean Kelvin.
- [75:09]
C
I also want to. I know we already moved on from most improved but like because of the 65 game rule, like Danis Jenkins, Anthony Black, Mousa Diabate, all those guys were ineligible. And yeah, the fact that it's also not applying to something like six man, it's dumb. I mean one of Kelden or Jaime Hawkes are gonna win and both of those guys are above 65 games. So we're not gonna like chat about this into perpetuity. Not that anyone really cares about the historical winners of six man, but I think the only other candidate worth flagging along those lines is Isaiah Stewart, who even by my looser games and minute standards, like I think just maybe didn't quite play enough between the injuries and the suspensions, but is as impactful as any bench player in the league and certainly as good defensively as any bench player in the league.
- [75:54]
A
I scoffed at Dana Jenkins. I apologize to Danis family.
- [75:59]
C
Never do that again.
- [76:00]
B
He deserved a a mention for sure. I'm glad you mentioned Dana Jenkins.
- [76:04]
C
Can we talk for a second about Tim Hardaway Jr. Though in this six man conversation I haven't set him up. I think, I think we do have to and I say that as somebody who has been a skeptic of Tim Hardaway Jr. For a long time. He turned into the Nuggets security blanket this season and it's been really cool to watch. But he is like Christian Brown is struggling. You're out of here. Tim Hardaway Jr. Is in. Cam Johnson can't hit shots tonight. You're out. Tim Hardaway Jr. S in. He has been one of the most stable Denver Nuggets, which if you're familiar with the Tim Hardaway experience is like a remarkable change of pace for him. So I think he needs to be saluted for an award like this. I think frankly, like it is in the spirit of what this award is the idea of like he is coming off the bench to replace and spell starters and works well with what you do but can work independently. That's who these awards go to. And so I think he deserves to be on some ballots.
- [76:56]
B
Security blank, blinky blanky. Nicknames. I'm just thinking of nicknames for old thj.
- [77:03]
C
Just imagine Nikola Jokic with a giant binky and that is Tim Hardaway Jr. Just dragging him around the court.
- [77:09]
A
Does he get Bruce Brown's hat and chaps now that he is the go to bench scorer off that team?
- [77:15]
C
I mean he could pull it off. Let's be honest about it. That man could wear a hat.
- [77:20]
A
A man can wear a hat. Kyle, can you get the sense of who can wear a hat and who can as a. As a noted hat wearer?
- [77:29]
B
Yeah, if you saw my reaction. No, I don't really. I don't. I don't know what dictated him wearing what he looks like. He could put a hat on his head if I don't know what goes into that criteria. Sure. Yeah. Tim Hardaway Jr. Looks like a hat guy to be.
- [77:43]
A
Okay,
- [77:46]
C
we should say we're talking cowboy hats specifically, which I do think is a different criteria.
- [77:50]
A
Oh, interesting. I was just going full hats. But yeah, cowboy hat is a very specific type. I feel like if you have a big head, cowboy hat's a no, right?
- [77:57]
C
Yeah, I think that's a little too. It's a little too egregious if. If it's head. If your head is big and you're building a big hat on top of it, I think that's drawing too much attention to the thing you don't want.
- [78:07]
A
Just look like a goldeneye character when you have the big head mode on.
- [78:11]
C
Just go Jaws. Don't.
- [78:13]
A
Don't do it. Right. Odd Job.
- [78:15]
C
No, Odd Job's banned. We all know that.
- [78:18]
A
Can't do Odd Job. All right, Coach of the year Joe Missoula doesn't want it, which means that he's going to get it and he will like it. I have Missoula, then I have Bickerstaff and Mr. Johnson.
- [78:28]
C
I have the same ballot.
- [78:29]
A
Okay, Kyle.
- [78:30]
B
No Charles Lee mentioned in there. Yeah, Bickerstaff definitely deserves a mention. I was thinking Joe Mazzulla. What he should do is he should strategically place like specifically an office trash can, like one of the smaller ones, and then he puts it like sort of at feet level. And then when they hand him the award, he just goes, oops. And like, does it catch it and it goes straight into the trash. I think that would make for a great social media moment. So that one's free, Joe. Go for it.
- [79:01]
C
It would make for a great social media moment. It would also make for a great piece on, like, Sam Cassell's mantle when Missoula inevitably passes it off. So it'll find a good home somewhere. Just not with J. Joe Missoula finally
- [79:12]
A
gets something after pining for a head job for 20 odd years. God, it's brutal with Sam, but odds, a good pull there. I actually think, like, he probably deserves more consideration for this because what he did basically not not only turning the team around in terms of wins, but like, Just the culture and the vibes. Going from the worst in the league to a team that plays hard as their identity is certainly significant.
- [79:35]
C
Now.
- [79:35]
A
Are they on a different team? Are you in the Portland Trailblazers? No, but are you trying to say
- [79:41]
B
that he ought to be considered? Is that. That was mainly just see if I
- [79:45]
A
could pass Rob off.
- [79:46]
B
He didn't get mad enough. That was a little boring.
- [79:49]
C
I wanted to see Justin's response to that. Why isn't. Why isn't Chauncey Billups on this list?
- [79:56]
A
He didn't qualify for the 65 game rule.
- [79:59]
C
Why isn't Thiago Splitter on this list?
- [80:00]
A
He might not be here beyond next year. Interesting. Have you guys seen any of the new owner Tom Dundon's like, press conferences or any of, like, the quotes coming through?
- [80:11]
C
What's he been saying?
- [80:12]
A
He came in hot, man. He's just like, really trying to establish a culture. Like, it's. It's both like, new owner syndrome, but also like, he seems like a hard O by nature. And at one point he was like, I think he told the team directly in like, his first, like, address to them in a locker room. I think it was in. When they played the Clippers the first time in la. He's like, our job, like, your job is to be irreplaceable and our job is to replace you. And I was like, I don't know. You want to say that out loud?
- [80:40]
C
That's fucked up.
- [80:42]
B
Shoveling coal on that Moran, that morale fire, baby.
- [80:45]
C
Woo. Jesus Christ.
- [80:47]
A
He's coming into work.
- [80:50]
C
That sounds like a dude who's trying to get you to train Claude to replace your job at work. Like, we're better than this. The messaging has to be better than. Than this.
- [81:00]
A
Yeah, I mean, it is true, but I don't think you. That's the way to motivate humans. He's going to do something. I could tell. Like, he also. He was also like, oh, Joe Cronin had a big deal in his pocket during the deadline and if I was here, I would have done it. I was like, oh, shit, he's going to fucking trade for Giannis with half a season on his deal left and they're going to have to trade him at the deadline.
- [81:22]
B
Sheesh.
- [81:24]
A
Anyway, that's your Blazers minute.
- [81:26]
C
Honestly, a lot happening over there, so fully justified.
- [81:30]
A
Anything else on these coaches?
- [81:32]
C
I want to say for Missoula? Not only the jump in the management in terms of wins and expectations while not having Jason Tatum for a lot of this season, but Kyle talked about the offensive rebounding revolution in the NBA earlier, I think reinventing the Celtics as part of that process. This was not just like we come in and we play the way we play. They dramatically overhauled a lot of their offensive style and specifically the pursuit of the second chance opportunity. So it's like he has, you know, the narrative case. He has like the basketball, like in the weeds case. He clearly is like such a great motivator with these guys and understands what buttons to push when. And on the, on the JB side of it, like a JB would be great. The Pistons have made a clear jump. There is something though about like if Kate is healthy, he's on the MVP ballot. Jalen Duran might be the most improved player. Asar Thompson's going to get some votes for certainly first team all defense, if not defensive player of the year ballot. You know, maybe in that third spot. If all those things are true, isn't this just kind of a young team getting a little older and more seasoned? JB is doing a good job within that. But as far as the most competitive cases for coach of the year, I do wonder about stuff like that.
- [82:41]
A
I agree. Or typically just rewards a team that jumped the most in the standings or in the Southeast case just kind of like subverted expectations. So I don't know, the more I'm thinking through this, the kind of conversation, the Charles Lee's of the world, they probably deserve to be up. Charles Lee like came in, established that entire structure that they're working from in order to have success.
- [83:02]
C
For sure.
- [83:03]
B
I was just saying Mitch and Charles Lee on that, on those grounds. Those are two guys that deserve a lot of consideration really.
- [83:10]
C
I think Mitch especially in terms of empowering enough guys to make the spurs one of the deeper teams in the league and then managing all that depth, really impressive for a coach like Mitch Johnson. I admittedly had trouble with Charles Lee and Quinn Snyder I think deserves a nod here as well as two guys who like had incredible in season turnarounds for their teams. But do you also hold it against them that they were not good to start the season? So like they were still the coach when the Hornets and the Hawks were bad. But they've been so great over the last couple of months. Do they. I don't know what to do with all that.
- [83:42]
A
Right. They turn things around from their own previous work. Yeah, that's true. All right, why don't we wrap it there? I have potatoes to plant. It's phase two. Potatoes and onions going in the other bed. What are you guys up to today, huh? Wanna talk about our afternoons?
- [84:01]
C
Nothing that eventful, frankly. I mean, you're really doing it in a way that we're trying to aspire to.
- [84:06]
B
Taking a five year old to a swim lesson. That's about the extent of it. Yeah.
- [84:10]
A
We're talking about backstrokes.
- [84:13]
B
Oh, I don't even. Yeah. Jumping in the pool. I convinced him to do that the other day. He did not like it. Did not. We're just. We're just getting to a comfort level in the water. Yeah. I grew up with a very country experience where it was just kind of like figured out, so. I don't know.
- [84:29]
C
More of a Crick situation, I would imagine.
- [84:33]
B
I swam in a river, so, yeah, I'm. I'm very. Absolutely the caricature of myself in that sense.
- [84:42]
C
So.
- [84:42]
B
I don't know. This is all new to me, the acclimation to the water. So I don't know. I also think having a family rob you. His sibling. I mean. Older.
- [84:49]
A
Older.
- [84:50]
C
Yeah, older.
- [84:52]
B
Okay. I was just gonna say having siblings, I think really motivates this stuff in a way. For sure. The younger. So we see that in basketball. Right. The younger has an advantage. But yeah. Anyway, I digress.
- [85:03]
C
You definitely want to keep up. It's like. And your older sibling might just be liable to throw you in a pool at a certain point. And so it's literally a life or death kind of situation.
- [85:11]
B
There's a lot of that. Yeah. I don't know. My.
- [85:14]
C
Yeah, go ahead.
- [85:15]
B
Well, I was gonna say my. My younger sister walked at like eight and a half, nine months, like I think, and she had a bunch of siblings. So I. That. That shit's real. That's a real thing.
- [85:23]
C
We're precocious, you know, we're standing up for all the younger siblings out there.
- [85:26]
A
You know, I don't know if this is the best podcast out there. Best sports podcast.
- [85:30]
B
You could just stop.
- [85:34]
C
I can guarantee you this is the only podcast in which we will be discussing this combination of topics like. Than anyone will. Right. Where can. Where else could you find this?
- [85:43]
A
Tune in next time, guys. We'll be back on Monday. We'll be wrapping up the NBA regular season. Cause Sunday's the last day. So we'll talk about all the fallout from that on Monday.
- [85:53]
B
And Romaine versus spinach.
- [85:55]
A
Tune in, dude. Remain all the time.
- [85:59]
B
Yeah, Romaine fucking sucks. You're wrong. It's spinach. Pointless.
- [86:04]
A
We'll get to that next time. Okay, let's save the good stuff. All right. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Stefan Anderson for filling in on production. We'll talk to you next time. 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling Problem Call 1-800-Gambler or 1-800-My Reset, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit md gamblinghelp.com.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.