A March Madness Primer for NBA Fans | Group Chat

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ringer NBA Show – A March Madness Primer for NBA Fans | Group Chat

Release Date: March 17, 2025

In this episode of The Ringer NBA Show, titled "A March Madness Primer for NBA Fans | Group Chat", hosts Rob Mahoney and Big Waz are joined by guest J. Kyle Mann to navigate the intricate landscape of college basketball's March Madness and its implications for upcoming NBA drafts. The discussion is both insightful and engaging, tailored for NBA enthusiasts eager to understand the nuances of collegiate performances and their translation to professional potential.

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1. Episode Introduction and Setup (00:00 – 01:06)

The episode begins with sponsor messages for Patron Tequila, State Farm, Smucker's Uncrustables, Hyundai, and Mint Mobile. Following the sponsorship segments, Rob Mahoney welcomes listeners to "Group Chat," highlighting the absence of Justin Verrier and introducing J. Kyle Mann as their guide through the complexities of college basketball.

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2. Navigating March Madness and Draft Season (01:06 – 03:22)

Rob Mahoney opens the conversation by addressing Justin Verrier's absence and the challenges of covering March Madness alongside the NBA draft preparations. He humorously remarks on Justin "ducking" their interactions, setting a light-hearted tone for the discussion.

Notable Quote:

Rob Mahoney [01:42]: "I think Justin's ducking you."

Kyle Mann acknowledges the task ahead, emphasizing the importance of understanding new player dynamics and team performances during this pivotal season.

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3. Prospect Concierge: Evaluating Draft Prospects (03:22 – 28:39)

Rob and Big Waz express their reliance on Kyle's expertise to identify and evaluate potential NBA draft prospects emerging from March Madness. They introduce the concept of "Prospect Concierge," a series of prompts aimed at uncovering players who align with their specific tastes as NBA purists.

Key Player Analyses:

• Danny Wolf (Michigan)

  • Kyle Mann [08:50]: Highlights Wolf's creative passing and high pick-and-roll usage. Discusses his turnover issues and potential for a streamlined role in the NBA.
  • Rob Mahoney [12:37]: Emphasizes Wolf's potential as a stretch four with his handling skills.

  Notable Quote:

  Kyle Mann [09:08]: "Danny Wolf is a seven footer and carries over a 20% pick and roll load which is pretty unusual."

• Yaxel Lindeborg (Arizona)

  • Kyle Mann [18:45]: Describes Lindeborg as a latecomer to basketball with strong rim protection and passing abilities, drawing comparisons to Siakam.

• Vijay Edgecombe (Baylor)

  • Kyle Mann [27:14]: Praises Edgecombe's explosive athleticism and proficient shooting, noting his potential as a disruptive player in the NBA.

  Notable Quote:

  Kyle Mann [27:32]: "He is somebody that could be a very well-rounded NBA player."

• Dylan Harper and Ace Bailey (Rutgers)

  • Kyle Mann [54:28]: Discusses Harper's exceptional ball-handling and scoring efficiency, comparing him to Jalen Brunson.
  • Rob Mahoney [56:04]: Compares Ace Bailey's shot-making abilities to Jalen Brunson and Devin Booker, highlighting his defensive potential.

  Notable Quote:

  Kyle Mann [54:28]: "Dylan Harper is a 6-foot-6 Jalen Brunson."

Defensive Prospects:

• Colin Murray Boyles (South Carolina)

  • Kyle Mann [67:44]: Labels Boyles as a "tank" with excellent defensive capabilities, suitable for guarding larger players.

• Thomas Sorber (Georgetown)

  • Kyle Mann [66:11]: Commends Sorber's hip mobility and switchable defense, likening his potential to Al Horford.

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4. Top Draft Contenders and Team Predictions (28:39 – 43:08)

The discussion shifts to top-tier draft prospects and team performances. Rob Mahoney and Big Waz ponder the emergence of Cooper Flag as a leading draft pick, citing endorsements from analysts like Hollinger and Vicini.

Notable Quote:

Kyle Mann [35:27]: "He has downloaded there. There has been no sort of moment that hasn't been impressive."

They delve into Keonte George's season, evaluating his inconsistent performance and guarding capabilities, debating whether Utah Jazz should invest in him or seek alternatives like Edgecombe or Harper.

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5. Evaluating Shooting and Playmaking Skills (43:08 – 57:45)

The conversation intensifies around the shooting mechanics and playmaking abilities of various prospects:

• Jaegor Dimmin (BYU)

  • Kyle Mann [46:26]: Lauds Dimmin as the most creative passer since Tyrese Halliburton, drawing parallels to Franz Wagner.

  Notable Quote:

  Kyle Mann [47:46]: "He's the most creative passer I've seen in college since Tyrese Halliburton."

• Trey Johnson (Texas)

  • Kyle Mann [65:18]: Critiques Johnson's role as a scorer without substantial playmaking, comparing him unfavorably to Ashleigh Fletcher.

• Ace Bailey (Rutgers)

  • Rob Mahoney [57:45]: Considers Bailey's upward trajectory and his similarities to J. Sean Tate, focusing on his defensive prowess and shot-making abilities.

  Notable Quote:

  Rob Mahoney [69:30]: "He could be a like a fringe all-NBA player and not be the primary for whatever team he plays for."

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6. Defensive Specialists and Rim Protectors (57:45 – 66:01)

The hosts identify and analyze players with exceptional defensive skills and rim protection:

• Colin Murray Boyles (South Carolina)

  • Praised for his defensive tenacity and ability to guard bigger opponents effectively.

• Thomas Sorber (Georgetown)

  • Noted for his hip mobility and switchable defense, drawing further comparisons to Al Horford.

Notable Quote:

Rob Mahoney [69:11]: "He could easily find his space against those guys, easily score inside."

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7. Cautionary Tales: Avoiding Overhyped Prospects (66:01 – 73:34)

To conclude, the hosts caution listeners against overhyping certain players based on limited or situational performances during the tournament. They emphasize the unpredictability of March Madness and the importance of discerning genuine talent from temporary flashes of brilliance.

Notable Quote:

Rob Mahoney [70:43]: "We're going to be too wise for that after your briefing, Kyle."

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8. Final Thoughts and Closing (73:00 – 73:34)

Rob Mahoney wraps up the episode by expressing gratitude to Kyle Mann for his in-depth analysis and urging listeners to approach March Madness with a critical eye. The hosts acknowledge their learning curve in dissecting college basketball intricacies and tease future episodes focusing on NBA-specific discussions.

Notable Quote:

Rob Mahoney [73:34]: "We know nothing. We are wading into this world. I look forward to our continued discussions on who these players are and how they will impact the NBA."

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Key Takeaways:

• Prospect Evaluation: The episode provides a thorough examination of various college basketball players and their potential transition to the NBA, highlighting strengths, weaknesses, and unique skill sets.

• Defensive Focus: Emphasis is placed on the importance of defensive capabilities and versatility in guards and forwards, with specific players like Colin Murray Boyles and Thomas Sorber standing out.

• Playmaking and Shooting: Detailed discussions on the creative passing and shooting mechanics of prospects such as Jaegor Dimmin and Dylan Harper underscore the evolving nature of NBA player profiles.

• Caution in Draft Predictions: The hosts advise caution against overvaluing players based on tournament performances, advocating for a balanced and informed approach to draft selections.

This episode serves as an essential primer for NBA fans looking to bridge their understanding of March Madness performances with NBA draft outcomes, offering insightful analysis and expert opinions to enhance their basketball acumen.

Transcript

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[Rob Mahoney]

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Rob Mahoney. That is Big Waz. And with us, not Justin Barrier. Not today anyway. But our spirit guide into the unknown that is college basketball. J. Kyle Mann. Kyle, what is up?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I'm not trying to cast aspersions right out the gate. I don't know where Justin is. You know, I don't. I'm not trying. You know, I don't want to ding him right off the bat, but I'm always willing to if it's Justin. So anyway, I don't. I don't want to linger on that, but I'm just wondering where he is, so. But I'm happy to shepherd you guys through. Through this. This new frontier of new names and figuring out what's who's who and what's what. Let's do it. Let's get it done.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think Justin's ducking you.

[Big Waz]

He.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's been a lot of chatter about how intimidated he is to be on a podcast with you and how he. He feels a little shaken up whenever you pop on group chat with us. W. I mean, you. You've heard this too, right?

[Big Waz]

Justin Varier, Shrinking violet. As a human being, a podcaster, and as an editor. So this is par for the course for what that guy does on a day to day basis.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I mean, this wouldn't be draft season or I guess technically March madness season if we weren't calling people soft. If we weren't calling people not ready for the big time. And Justin's gonna have to take a few strays here just cause he's not in attendance. But Kyle, we really need your help. I guess Selection Sunday has already taken place. Is today's selection Monday.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Is that how out of touch you are? You don't even know if it happened.

[Rob Mahoney]

I know that it technically happened. I know that you technically podcasted about it on one Shining podcast. I know that the NBA draft.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Some wouldn't call it podcasting. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I know that the NBA draft guide is forthcoming.

[Big Waz]

Do.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do we have a date on that?

[J. Kyle Mann]

It is coming. We. We are going to launch our first 14. We're going more prosy, so we go into some detail with our writing. Danny and I split the duties and. And I curated the top 14. And then we're going to do it. We're going to do it in tears and then the second half. So there's a lot more. There's a lot more writing. So we're going. Even though it won't be. We're going deep early, and that's how we're going to handle it. So. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, all the more reason that people like Woz and I need your help, because normally I am leaning on the draft guide especially hard, basically, from now until June, but until it's up, as I'm. As I'm look, I'm not going to. I'm going to be honest with you. I am not planning to tune into a ton of March Madness games. Wiser. Are you going to be locked in during this season?

[Big Waz]

No, I. Will I be locked into March Madness, or have I locked into college basketball?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, are you going to be locked into March Madness?

[Big Waz]

Oh, yeah, definitely. The first four days of the tournament, the first two rounds, to me, that is the money spot where basically there are games on all day long and you get the great upsets and you get the great stories. I'll definitely be locked in for that.

[Rob Mahoney]

My appetite is maybe not as great as yours. I need to pick and choose or else I start getting a little bit queasy watching some of the comebacks and some of the decision making. And so, Kyle, we really do need your help to figure out what we need to watch, what is actually important. And we've concocted a little bit of a game today that I call prospect concierge. Woz and I are men of very particular tastes.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yep.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sometimes you need help meeting those tastes, finding out how to fulfill them, where to find exactly what you need. And so we have a series of prompts, Kyle, that we want to give you as far as where can we go to find this very specific thing that we need as. As NBA purists to really hit the mark in this March Madness. Season. How do you feel about that?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I feel good. It kind of makes me feel like I've never actually worked in a record store, but this makes me feel like. Like someone who has, I don't know, soccer moms coming in and I'm trying to explain exactly who we are. I'm trying to explain new wave to them or the maximalist movement of the late 2000s. You know, it's just that.

[Rob Mahoney]

What would I like?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I'm like, well, you might try, you know, washed out or. I don' just. I'm willing to do that for you guys. But yeah, let's. Let's do it. I know. You know, I don't have as much of a problem with. With watching lower levels of basketball. I don't understand. Totally understand your level of snobbery on that front, Rob. Not to your direction. Well, what is it?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's bad. It's very bad basketball. And I don't like.

[Big Waz]

Why.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why would you settle when we can. We can be here crunching NBA tape on a daily basis. I can be. I can be living and dying with the best players on all of these college teams and what they go on to be, even if it is a member of the Charlotte Hornets.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, I just enjoy seeing things in their earlier forms. I've explained this before. Like, I don't, you know, I might see a band that's not quite there. They haven't written their masterpiece yet, but there is fun seeing the inklings of things and then. And then tracking them as they go. You don't have to be. Not everything comes out perfectly realized. You know, I just think that's not a. That's not a totally fun way to live, in my opinion. So I find it exciting, to be honest.

[Big Waz]

I think Dan Hurley has had a sort of impact on the game in terms of professionalized the offenses specifically. Like, it just looks more professional. I watched two of the SEC tournament semifinals games from my hotel room, and both of those games were pretty well played. They end up like, the one ended up being a mega blowout. But like, I'm watching, I'm like, oh, okay. Like, these guys are running tertiary and secondary, you know, actions and guys aren't dribbling it off their foot every other possession. Like, it looks like realer, you know, more professionalized NBA type of offenses than it ever did back in the days, especially early on in the one and done era, where, like, teams just were just like, look, we gotta get talent through the door. And actually forming a team becomes a secondary proposition against. Unless you're like, you know, basically a mid major where none of your kids leave and you have minimal amount of turnover. And so I think it's gotten way better in that regard.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I think in the broader sense, if I could comment on what you're, what you said there, I think it speaks to why you've probably heard even from afar that the SEC has been very, very good this year in basketball. And a big reason for that is that a lot of the powers who were good last year had returning players and we've got the COVID thing going on. Overall, my point is just that the SEC is old. So I think that the basketball at the top has been very high quality. Auburn, who is a contender, who is was the number one overall seed in this field, they have, they have a lot of older guys. They have one dude who's 25 years old. So we have, we're not seeing as much of the one and done air, like you said. We're not seeing a lot of the teams that are just, you know, ten deer on skates. It's not watching that tragedy, you know, shit show play out over the course of a season. We're seeing more competent basketball. Like Kentucky, for example, is very old. Tennessee is old. Florida is a very good team. They're old. Alabama has a lot of old players. So if you're wanting Rob, to, you know, poke through the fogginess of your, of your snobbery to watch something that is going to be palatable for you, that you can stomach and swallow and digest. The sec. A lot of teams are old, but the SEC in particular, it's pretty, is pretty old. And I think the basketball has been pretty fun to watch. I'm not trying to give you too hard of a time, Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm sorry, no, this is why you're the go to guy at the record store. You have, you have met me at my soccer mom and you have found something that is appealing to my particular tastes. And so I want to start with that kind of broader parameter. You know, we have all these different prompts we want to get through. But first, Kyle, who do you think is going to be the group chat favorite out of all of these potential draft prospects? Like who is the guy that was. And just. And I are going to be raving about whether it's at summer league going into next season. Who is going to appeal to us?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I have a number of answers to this question. I mean, the first one pertains to an exercise that you guys do year in and year out. Now, will this guy be the best player in this class? I don't think so. I would be very surprised if this happened. But I think Danny Wolf is a very fun player for Michigan. Danny, are you familiar with Danny Wolfe? That would be my first question.

[Rob Mahoney]

Somewhat wise. He seems like you're going to draft him very soon.

[Big Waz]

Okay, I just, I just pulled up his, his Google search.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Did you, did you not expect him to be white by his name? No. Danny Wolf, let me just give you the, the 35k look at here. Here. He, he is a seven foot like he's almost like a Euro basically. He has the most sort of Danilo Gallinari ish game in this, in this class. Danny wolf is a seven footer and carries over a 20% pick and roll load which is pretty unusual. Michigan is an interesting team. They have, they run seven foot dual seven footer picking roles. He's very crafty, his shooting is up and down. But I think in the white American draft I think that he is going to be somebody that you guys are going to love. In terms of just players who I think like strike some of your alls like winning sensibilities. I think that Colin Murray Boyles for South Carolina is a very versatile defender. He's an odd player offensively. It's going to be kind of a question of what his, his role is going to be as on the offensive end. But he's, he has long arms, he has these just vice grip hands. He's very strong. He's somebody that I could see being being a major pain on the defensive end. Those are two that come to mind just immediately wise.

[Rob Mahoney]

Where do you want to start with those two?

[Big Waz]

I want to start with the Danny Wolf for sure. I'm, I'm interested in one. Do you think Michigan's gonna do well in the tournament? Cause that's another thing. A lot of times these drop. It's two things. Like a lot of times the best players are playing on teams, especially back in the days, young teams, bunch of freshmen, they get beat early on. You don't even get to watch them have a nice tournament. And then the other thing, and I don't think this pertains to either. I don't know if this pertains to either one of these guys. Sometimes a player comes out of nowhere, has an incredible tournament and now he's on everybody's radar like why aren't we drafting this kid? Do these guys fit into either one of those molds?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Wolf, for something that I'm writing for the ringer today actually I was Just writing about his highs are. So he's a super creative passer. Like he makes passes off the bounce facing the basket. Typically when we talk about guys his size, we're like, okay, pick and pop big, can probably pass, you know, out of the short corner, spray it to the sort of the, I'm doing this with, you can't really see to the, to the top of the key or to the opposite side of the floor. You know those kind of like whip skip passes. He faces the basket and makes live dribble reads and passes that are pretty unusual. The other, the main thing with him is that he's very, very turnover prone in non conference play. His Turnover percentage was 29.9 and that came down to a much more encouraging 20 in conference play. So he's, he has a tendency to, there is some, there are some eggs that are getting broken when the omelets are a lot of eggs and eggs are expensive. As we know in the NBA you can't be breaking a lot of eggs. Uh, it's true in our country and in the NBA. So I think for him in the league to be productive, I, I think he's probably going to be in a more narrow role. But I, I, I think once they get him into a more streamlined role where he's not carrying as heavy of a load, I think he's somebody that is going to have like social media moments next year because he can make some passes. Like did you see that you're texting your buddies like, yeah, he's that level of a creative passer.

[Big Waz]

What, what position is he going to play? It says on certain places that he's 7ft tall. Is that true?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I haven't seen the exact measurement, but if he's shorter than 6, 11, 610 and a half, I'd be shocked. So he's a legit. He's, but I do, I think he'll play four. I don't defensive, I mean he has good defensive hands. I just think he shoots the ball. He's, he's erratic. He, you know, he's sort of a, he's sort of a 35% ish, kind of a gu guy. But when you watch the shot, it's, it's not lightning quick. He doesn't hunt them. Sort of the balance in his brace yourself shot diet isn't as three point heavy as you would expect. You know, you kind of would look at him and see his skill set in the passing and things and be like, okay, it's probably a, a stretch four but he's more of a handler who sort of has shooting in his bag. I think he could improve as a shooter though, but I don't expect him.

[Big Waz]

Ever to main type his. His player composition. That's Vuchovic.

[Rob Mahoney]

That seems un. Uncharitable. Just like not because Vuch is bad but because you're saying it was. When you say the Vuch comp. I know that's an insult.

[J. Kyle Mann]

You got to know the pride to know how the insult.

[Big Waz]

There's just asking a question.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do worry about that though. Kyle. Like it? Look, I'm extremely well versed at this point in roughly three highlight reels.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Granted, based on that data that the wide ranging tape crunching that I have done, I do see like the off the dribble game looks incredibly impressive for a player his size. He feels like the exact kind of big that is going to be challenged in that way where if he's going to be face up on the perimeter, NBA teams are probably going to make him hit those shots before they start honoring him and letting him put the ball on the floor. And so like I'm really eager to see him in any variation of NBA dribble handoff offense. Like anything that's going to get him moving into the middle of the floor in spaces where he's not having to create so much for himself, I think are going to be really exciting. But NBA defenses are tough on bigs and if, if you're a stretch big and you're not hitting at, you know, say above a 34% clip most of the time, they're just going to kind of live with whatever you could put up.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I think the big thing that's going to help him avoid being tested in that way is that he can dribble into his own. You know, he, he can play back to the basket some. I just think once you narrow his role to the point where he's not dribbling two, three, four times against a set defense the way that he does, like Michigan needs him to play and I think that's why they put up with some of the. The wastefulness in the way that he plays. I think that once you narrow it and he's somebody that can get, he doesn't need the ball thrown to him, he can sort of work his way to his spots and I think that's the biggest advantage that he has. Even if a team dares him to do that, he can handle the ball well enough that I think if he gets a small on him, he can get into the middle of the floor and sort of take advantage. And he's a pretty angular score, I will say in a half court or just not, not even just the half court. He's only dunked six times this year, which I think is a pretty interesting thing. You can kind of take that as you want because he's not an awful scorer at the rim, but he's, he's pretty good with either hand, but he's often avoiding the defense. So I think he's going to have to improve in that way. But I don't know, I, I kind of feel like his ability to handle the ball is going to neutralize some of that, some of what you're talking about. That. That's kind of my expectation there. Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

You mentioned, you know, his high usage for Michigan. What has his arc been like in that regard? Has he always been that kind of player for them? Is that a different role that he stepp? Because I mean he is one of the upper classmen of this draft class.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I mean he's, he's been this from beginning to end. I mean they came in the, the guy that coaches Michigan is Dusty May. He led Florida Atlantic. I don't know if you all remember that. He led them on a pretty crazy run to the Final Four a couple of years ago. And he, he's a, a pretty. One of the more respected offensive minds at college. So I think their vision for him coming in and when he came. He's not somebody that was an unknown. That sort of just became something at Michigan. He, he played at Yale before. How do you guys feel about transferring from. Yeah, I, I'd be transfer from Yale to. I know that I sound very, very Kentucky when I say Yale, but when would you want to. How do you feel about transferring from an Ivy to.

[Big Waz]

If you're not 7 foot? I'd advise against it.

[J. Kyle Mann]

No, I'm just saying for the degree at least.

[Big Waz]

The guy's 7 foot and has a high probability of making into making it into the NBA. Like once you're seven feet tall, like, you know, the likelihood that you're going to go to the NBA and stick around is just much more likely than some jitterbug who thinks he's gonna be the next Allen Iverson. Like, stop it, brother. Like, go get your degree. Get, get some grad school up in you. Hey man, try to be a fifth year senior.

[J. Kyle Mann]

What's the monetary value of, of losing that Ivy League on that diploma? That's kind of.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it, I think it depends on your language. He can still say I went to Yale. He doesn't have to explain that he then went to Michigan. You know, just, just a little, a little fact of omission, like a little lie of omission. I think it'd be totally fine for him to kind of fudge the truth on that. He did go there and, and ultimately look. Yeah, a mid first rounder salary, if it turns out to be that for him, seems all right.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yale degree or no Michigan, nothing to sneeze at either.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely not a good school.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

That was you casting aspersions on Michigan, Kyle Waz. And I was simply never just curious in the future.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I just wonder how that all weighs out. Yeah.

[Big Waz]

So another, another player type that Rob and I had discussed of always being interested in and tantalized by is like these skilled bigs who, you know, they don't master one, you know, sort of trait. But you know, they could dribble it, they can shoot it a little bit, they pass it, have good feet, play defense. We're thinking about the were kid from Miami. Obviously Jalen Johnson is a type and back in the days we would just all, we would compare all of these guys to Kevin Garnett. But now we're smart enough to know nobody will ever be Kevin Garnett. Do we have any of those sort of player types? Your Chris Boshes, your, your Anthony Randolphs.

[J. Kyle Mann]

If you will, you're talking about. I mean, we're in the list here. Oh, so Jalen Johnson type is what you're talking about? Yeah, right. Okay, Okay. I was like, there's no Kevin Garnett type. I was trying to think. Well, I was just trying to think of who, who even has come close to the Kevin Garnett type in the time since. It's like AD and Evan Mobley is there like, I mean, a little Jaren Jackson too?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Big Waz]

Jaren Jackson was getting a lot of Tim Duncan KG comparison very early on in his career. Thankfully, those comparisons have ceased to exist.

[Rob Mahoney]

And none of those guys pass like Kevin Garnett. Like the, the full complete skill set package is basically impossible.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, I mean I, I would say, yeah, Jalen Johnson is a little bit different. He, he was, he was one of these guys that fell into a category of what I call weird year guys where you know, for a while we were getting this with the, with the, you know, super creative, out of the box innovative name that I came up with there. But Jalen Johnson was playing for Duke during the COVID year and he left, he was an RSCI top 10 guy. So it was a weird situation evaluation wise, because people were like, all right, why did he. You know, there's a stench of leaving your team, but it also was Covid. And then he, he didn't really set the world on fire, even though he was good. But he did show that dynamic skill set. We don't have anybody that's, you know. Jaden Quaintance is a guy for Arizona State who is in next year's draft to keep an eye on. And we'll circle back and talk about him later at another time. But there's Carter Bryant for Arizona is a really springy, dynamic guy. But this is a weird one that if he decides to come out, this guy, I think is one of the more well rounded players in this draft. And his name is Yaxel Lindeborg. Okay, I know that sounds like something from a Star Trek RPG PC game from the 90s. He is a guy who just started playing basketball not that long ago. He was a juco. So he's got this weird just. I, I'm always intrigued by these dudes who start late. I don't know what his family situation was. I mean, like, Siakam is the all time example of this. Who started playing basketball late. But then you start investigating and you're like, okay, he was the younger brother in a team in a family full of Division 1 players. And it's just weird arc. But Linda borg is. He's 6 foot 9. He can really pass the ball. He's got a really sturdy, solid frame. He. He rim protects really well for his position. He has like deflective hands. Like, he's, he was one of the more productive players in college this season, so. But he has, he has kind of the broad shoulder that I expect him to guard fours and guard up the chain rather than down. But I think he's a really, he's a really fascinating player.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm so weirded out by the fact that, you know, in your little bio blast, as you just explained, he is kind of new to the game because in checking him out, he has great feel. He does have like a do a little bit of everything game. He looks like a player who actually knows what he's doing, which for. For college, as I have articulated for me, is not something that I feel like I see very often. And so for him to have that, given his experience level even, even with whatever caveats may come with that kind of skill set, I am, my, my ears are perked. I am, I'm interested To see what he's capable of.

[Big Waz]

All right, another, another. And by the way, this is very group chat of us to be 22 minutes into the pod and not mention a single one of the top five draft prospects.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, what else are we doing here.

[J. Kyle Mann]

If not at the table? We'll do it. We'll do it.

[Big Waz]

Another type of guy that I think teams often fall in love with is the sort of toolsy, super athletic, physically gifted guy who hasn't shown much feel for the game, hasn't shown that they're going to be able to nail any specific sort of NBA duty, whether it's having a tight dribble, distribution, shot making, you know, paint protect. Like they haven't shown it, but physically have the gifts that, you know, a team of GMs and Scouts are going to get this guy in a workout and be completely wowed by. Do we have any one of those kind of prospects? Honestly, I think of somebody like Dennis Smith Jr. Who, you know, had everything, the physical package, jump out the gym, blew by everybody. Nobody could stay in front of him when he was at NC State. And it just never came together in the NBA in the ways that it does for other people. You think about a Russell Westbrook type who basically people thought he was going to come in and be some, you know, defensive.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, designated stopper, hustle player is crazy kind of guy.

[Big Waz]

He comes in and ends up being a 30 point a game kind of guy at his peak. Do we have any of those sort of use cases right there?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Paul, I was going to ask you, do you think, do you think Dennis Smith played the right sport? I've often wondered if he should have been like a corner or like for his physical tools, like if he should have played football because it was like he never. He's great, but I always kind of wondered if he was one of those guys that maybe couldn't quite, couldn't quite carve out his lane in basketball. I don't know.

[Big Waz]

I think Dennis Smith should have worked harder at NBA point guard skills in the off season.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not unfair. Also got hurt, we should say, in a way that derailed his career. That's fair and I think made something of himself as a defender at least. Like really came back and was kind of about the things that would get him back in the league. It's, it's kind of a shame that he hasn't found a place to latch.

[Big Waz]

On out of college.

[Rob Mahoney]

That wasn't gonna happen like people thought.

[Big Waz]

And we're talking about like MVP Derrick Rose, not the Derrick Rose who made himself into a role player after all of the injuries. We're talking about peak Derrick Rose. Impossible to guard Derrick Rose. And people thought like he had that kind of potential in him and the physical stuff was all there. You know, it was scary when he would just detonate and just dunk on guys at NC State. But it just never came together as like a cause he had to be a point guard, you know, and he just never put that kind of skill set together.

[Rob Mahoney]

But I think that's the answer for Kyle's question right there, is if you're getting Derrick Rose comps as a point guard or you can play a frankly unglamorous position on a football field in which you are probably most known for. The one time you screw up and get a, like a bad pass interference call. That's. That's your biggest moment in the sun. I think a lot of guys are taking the Derrick Rose comps.

[J. Kyle Mann]

It's interesting though, in the past few years how, I think if you got a Derrick Rose comp today, how that. How much the game has changed. Would. Would you feel like, you know, in 2009 if somebody said that about Derek, about a player, you would feel really excited. But today, how would you. How would you re. How would your basketball spidey sits. React if you. If somebody said, oh, he plays a lot like Derrick Rose, even at. Even at peak.

[Big Waz]

So to me, playing like Derrick Rose is just. You just like John Morant, you know, like to me, John Moran is sort of the evolution of the Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook kind of point guard. But John Moran came in with so much more point guard. The stuff that we associate with point guards. He came in with so much more of that, which I think makes him such a unique kind of player. Most of the time. These athletic ball handling guys don't have jaws, feel and court.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That's what I was going to say. I kind of think that I always. I argued with people around that draft who would. Who would compare him to Rose. And I always thought that Morant was more of a crossover between like Rondo and Iverson because you get Rondo's feel and you get the bendy, you know, wiggliness of Iverson scoring. I under. I vastly underestimated Morant scoring coming into college because. Or coming in the NBA because he was such a. That's what people forget. I think about him watching his college tape was there with the Donks, but my God, he was a pick and roll surgeon. He just. He really, really was a fantastic passer. But speaking Rounding it back to what we were talking about, this is somebody that I think can get the people. He's, he's provocative, he can get the people going. This is Vijay Edgecombe. If you watch VJ Edgecomb for, for Baylor, you know, he got on the, on the NBA and the national radar back in the summer playing for the Bahamian national team. He's 6 foot 2. He, you know, we were talking about Danny Wolf having six dunks on the season. BJ Edgecomb has 32 half court dunks on the.

[Big Waz]

This guy gets that.

[J. Kyle Mann]

This guy gets into the lane and he is so fast off of his feet. He's going to be probably in the like 95th and up percentile in the league in terms of like explosion. So he's, he's shown some, some fledgling skill across the board in terms of, you know, on the season.

[Big Waz]

I just watched what he did to Gonzaga. Jesus Christ. Sorry. Type boy. That was mean.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He's a little scary. So he's one of those athletes that once he gets into the air, you're a little afraid that. I don't know if you guys ever seen the sixth man. Whenever the, the. What is, what's the, what's the character's name that he, they, he propels him so high, he like hurts himself on the backboard. Like there's sometimes where I'm like, is Vijay Edgecombe gonna hit the backboard and hurt himself? He's that explosive. But he's not just a raw athlete. You know, I think, I think some of his, some of his tools remind me a lot of like a, like, like a Victor Oladipo. Honestly, for, for all the injuries in terms of what he can get done at his size, but he's on the season, you know, in catch and shoots, he's 37.6% from 3. So he's somebody that, you know, whether or not he grows into an initiator role, I don't know. But I think that he is going to add disruptiveness. I do think that he's a student, like he wants to improve and I, I don't, I don't sense a selfishness in him that would derail him. So he's somebody that I definitely could see somebody working him out and being like holy moly. And kind of in the way that what, he won't slip like Cam Whitmore did. He's going to go top five.

[Big Waz]

But that's what I was going to ask you. Where are people big boarding him right now?

[J. Kyle Mann]

It's usually in that 3 to 5 range. There are some people who look at him and, you know, I kind of wondered if, if somebody would, you know, ding. Dylan Harper, Ron Harper's son who's in this draft, we could talk about if you want. I don't know how much you guys know about him, but he's probably one.

[Big Waz]

Of the Rutgers kids.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yes, he does. You know, Edgecombe doesn't show enough feel and skill to I think, to justify putting him that high against, against a Harper. But he does, he does have enough tools, I think, to, to get somebody to take a chance on him. Pretty high, I think, just not playing the game. Top two.

[Rob Mahoney]

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[Big Waz]

Rob quickly jumping off the Keante George train. So crazy.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Are you guys off. Are you guys off the train? I'm not as dialed on Utah Jazz this year have even having been out there. But what's the. What's. What's the. Yeah, what's the vibe on. On Keonte?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Let me tell you what, he jumped.

[Rob Mahoney]

The tracks a little bit.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Oh, there was a.

[Rob Mahoney]

There was a bit of an exchange and someone didn't pull the right lever and all of a sudden the train has careened into a ditch.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Is this Polar Express it's just winding around on like a frozen lake and like we're all gonna die situated. I have a four year old. You can tell I got that Polar Express that quickly on the brain. No, I mean I'll tell you what I, what I surveyed and I haven't watched him closely this year. Last year I saw somebody who showed some passing feel at times, was a pretty erratic shooter and he didn't just. And he didn't do either one of them well enough in sort of concert with the other to. To put himself in a position to make reads and consistently like threaten the offense like he was. He was very up and down as a shooter and as a finisher. And I kind of wonder if he was being miscast as probably like a tertiary ball handler who would give you some scoring rather than somebody that could be full time decision maker. Like has that stuff gone off the rails this season, would you all say?

[Rob Mahoney]

A little bit. I, I think the balance of his game, the. It was like the, the things that we saw of him late last season in terms of some of the pick and roll creation. The balance has teetered, the decision making has teetered. The jumper overall just has not been as effective. It's. It's been a very weird Keante George season to the point where I think they should continue to invest in his future. They. He just shouldn't stand in the way of them drafting someone like BJ Edgecombe. If they believe in him, if they, if they believe in what someone like Edgecombe can bring to their backcourt, then I think it's absolutely worth exploring. And I think the one thing that I'm wondering, Kyle, you know, again, I'm operating off of a highlight standpoint and so Vijay Edgam's highlights are tremendous. As you say. He is quick off his feet. His version of athleticism to me is less like vertical explosion versus horizontal propulsion. It's like he's jumping from outside the lane and dunking. And as you mentioned, guys are clearing out of the way in a way that may not always be the case in the NBA. And he's going to have more athletes who are, you know, at least a step closer to his level that I'm. I'm a little concerned about. But what I want to know, I think most is based on the footage that I've seen, he's a guy who really gets after it, who has a pretty high motor. Is that. Is that a highlight?

[Big Waz]

He's known to try on that end.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's what I'm wondering. Is that a product of the plays that I'm seeing, or is he someone who is hyper athletic and also hyper motivated?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I think he's very motivated, I think. Are you seeing Utah needing sort of a disruptive, switchable backcourt guy? Is that what you're saying? Or somebody in transition who can play, finish plays on the ball juice, all kinds of juice.

[Rob Mahoney]

To be frank.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't know that he's going to be that in the short term. He's a long term. And I think what you're talking about with Keonte, I don't. I don't think it hurts so much that Keonte isn't quite manifesting into that because they got him at where they got him in the draft. If they had taken him top five, I think it would sting quite a bit to pivot that like that. But I think it was a worthy gamble for what he could be and maybe he'll stabilize into a lesser role. But I think. VJ I don't. On ball juice in the short term, I would not put my eggs in that basket. As. As we said, eggs are expensive. So I would say keeping. But keeping him around, he's not going to solve their problems. If they get a chance to get a Harper or a flag, I think they've got to go for it. But if they find themselves in that 3 through 5 range, I don't know that there's a ball handler that is going to just day one, change their lives, honestly.

[Big Waz]

So let's talk. Let's talk about the top of the draft then. I've been monitoring, not very closely, but been monitoring the Cooper flag thing and all of the people who I trust. You know, guys like Hollinger, guys like Vicini, everybody is more convinced than they were going into the season that this is the guy, he's kind of been better than advertised, which everybody seems to agree on. What do you think that like he's shown this year that has sort of shorn him up as the clear cut? You know, nobody is getting in the way of this number one pick.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I think the big thing to monitor here with him is that when we came into the season and I'm just going by like what my expectations were, I thought that he would be somebody that would. I didn't know even necessarily that he would lead them in scoring, but I thought that he would be somebody who would just sort of chip away and add a little bit of playmaking, you know, a little bit of pick and roll creation here, some spot up stuff. But his passing at Montverd last year, he was more of a guy who was coming off of off ball actions and getting to the middle of the floor, having an advantage created for him and then exploiting it. Granted he was playing with four first round picks on a high school team, so that was that. Can you gotta factor those things in Whenever, whenever you're thinking about what, what he looks like and how to like read into it. But at Duke, early in the season, you know, the most impressive thing, taking a step back here, the most impressive thing for me has been the fact that he has downloaded there. There has been no sort of moment that hasn't been impressive. There's been no moment, there's been no learning curve. He's. He has not felt stressed by the amount of data that has been downloaded to him. Granted, there's been a big deal made about how young he is. His birthday is in December. He just turned 18. He was 17 in the beginning of the year and, and showing. And there really has been no latency like lag when you watch him in terms of the information. He's a smart player, he's unbelievably competitive. I was saying this on Bill's pod. I think that he's a culture setter. I'm a big believer. I don't think this is controversial. I'm a big believer that culture trickles down wherever you are. You know, whether that is an organization, it doesn't even have to be a sports team. I think whenever the person on your team that's dictating, you know what's being done in whatever setting you're in. Whenever they are great at what they do and whenever they. Either by example or by force. You know, we've had some, we've had some discussion about whether you want to be a Tim Duncan or you want to be a Kobe, whichever the way is the right way to go about this.

[Big Waz]

Tim Duncan. But go ahead.

[J. Kyle Mann]

People seem to like Cooper, but Cooper also, I think that he just raises the standard of wherever he is because he is just very, very competitive. You can watch his body language, but circling it back to just on the on court stuff, I wondered in the beginning of the year foolishly if they were overburdening him with the pick and roll stuff. And I went in and month over month because he was having some issues, you know, in the early in the season, he was getting in crowds, he was turning the ball over in some critical spots. I wondered if maybe they should dial it back, spread those other places. Duke was just like, no, staying the course here. They kept him in a lot of pick and roll. They added some more. They weren't having him stand around when he didn't have the ball. So he was coming on, doing the same stuff. His connective passing is very, very good. He's creative, he sees the floor super well. But I have this in the argument guide, actually, that month over month, his pick and roll reps didn't go down. They went up. And his efficiency also went up substantially. So he figured, I like to, if you can, if you can find the evidence. I like guys who are able to obviously very clearly demonstratively figure things out. And Cooper has done that in his year in college. Like he's carried a huge usage role. He's been the best defender probably all around in college basketball. And that's crazy. It is really wild at his age. Yeah, he's averaged 20 points a game.

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[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, yeah.

[Big Waz]

I have a question defensively. Is he more Evan Mobley or is he more, I don't know, OG Anunoby?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean those probably, those are pretty high standards.

[Big Waz]

I'm just saying, like, are we sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

He'S great or great who's he guarding where?

[Big Waz]

Like you know, OG can guard up. But mostly we're sticking this guy on wings. And same with Evan Mobley. You know, he can, he can guard down, but mostly we're sticking him on bigs. Which one is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Are you the wing who can guard bigs or are you the big who can guard wings?

[Big Waz]

Guard wings.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I would expect him to sort of hover in that 2, 3, 4 range. He's, he is a little skinnier like in his lower body than, than, than og. I've made this point in other places that he, he doesn't sit in the chair quite as well. Like he doesn't get low and shuttle quite. Like Rob's smiling. I don't know why, but somebody sitting.

[Rob Mahoney]

The Chair is the most Kyle Mann. Kyle Mann thing I've ever heard in my life.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That is a very standard basketball sitting in the chair.

[Big Waz]

That's all that is.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, that's a hundred percent.

[Big Waz]

When you go to basketball camp and they're teaching you defense, that's the analogy they're going to use.

[J. Kyle Mann]

He can get low. He can, he doesn't get as low as some as an OG and he's not quite as strong, but he is a very. I, I had a scout, I'd never heard someone say this before, but the first time I talked to a scout that I really who told me about Cooper Flag, he said he's a hyper processor. I was like, I've never heard anybody say that before.

[Rob Mahoney]

And yeah, and we import those usually hyper processors. We don't make those on American soil for the most part.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, normally we talk about supercomputers, we're talking about offensive guys, we're talking about guys who see the chessboard. But his awareness and it's interesting because you start to just think about different types of thinkers. You start to think about, you know, there are people who just have fast recall. I think you encounter this in day to day life. And then there are people who are just conceptually quick on their feet. Like, you know, like the best podcasters are like, they can, they can think quickly and in real time. Like I just.

[Rob Mahoney]

Barrier type, you mean?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yes, yes. So, but Cooper, Cooper, information comes in. I wouldn't, I don't know, I don't, I haven't interviewed him, I haven't done a psychological profile on him, but I would imagine he's not like an ADHD type person. Like he focuses, he is very present on defense and you watch him and he, he is so aware of what's going on. I think that's why you see so many like, like spectacular blocks from him or spectacular out of area plays where you're like how the fuck did he time that? He just perfectly times things despite not being a VJ Edgecomb level athlete. So he's, he's, he's going to be somebody. I think that he can put out fires on the defensive end rather than being maybe like a one on one stopper. But I mean Scotty Pippen is a type guy that I think he, he, he's not gonna, he's that type of extra ball handler, extra creator, can guard multiple positions, can play off the ball. That was, that was my main comp for him and the. God, I think that he's going to be, he could be he could be a like a fringe all NBA player and not be like the, the primary for whatever team he plays for. He's that type of winning player.

[Rob Mahoney]

That'd be tremendous.

[Big Waz]

Do we not think he has. He has on the ball efficient, go to score potential in him? Is this completely ruled out or do you just think it's not. No, it's not ruled out.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, as Kyle was saying, if the pick and roll usage is going up and the efficiency with it, that's, That's a great sign for someone as young as he is.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, it's like, is he a wizard? Is he like a maestro? Like. And there's another guy in this draft in terms of passing who can manipulate. He's not quite to that level of manipulation where his, he can, you know, pry open windows partly because no one can really stop a lot of his first options. Like, you know, we don't see him having to get into those. So. But he, he is absolutely. I think that is. What's so remarkable about him is I would no, no chance would I bet against him becoming a primary. There's just no chance. Because I think the main thing that's in between him becoming a primary is just the ball handling and the shooting really. If he becomes a knockdown shooter like Jason Tatum is the comparison that I made. Jason Tatum wasn't a consistent shooter when he came to the league and Cooper is a better passer than Jason was at the same time age. So yeah, I think you'd be a fool to bet against him becoming a primary option. Honestly, I don't have a lot of.

[Rob Mahoney]

Games circled at this point, but the possibility that if Baylor makes it out of the first round, they would play Duke in the second round and we'd get Edgecomb and Cooper flag on the same court. Granted, very different positions, but like that's, that's what I need play.

[Big Waz]

Is his ankle cooked? Is he fine?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Edgecomb or no? Oh, Flag.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, for Flag.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Intel is. I don't know how we'll see. But I mean, Duke's good. Duke would beat. I, I may eat these words, but I feel like Duke would be Baylor by 30.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like then it'll be an interesting first half for me to watch to do a little preliminary.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Anybody that can. That can bother Cooper, but you know, he may not even have to play. I think that dude could beat Baylor without Flag. So they could, they could ice Flag for the first couple rounds and be fine.

[Rob Mahoney]

But Kyle, you kind of threw the lob on this one about Cooper Flag's passing ability and Overall, that there are some other guys in this class who are very, very appealing in that particular way. Who would you say is the best passer of this draft class? Cause we are, we certainly gravitate toward those types across the positional spectrum.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, that was. Yeah, you were saying who, who are you guys going to be wild about next year? And I guess that would have to, that would assume that I would have a really keen sense for your all's value set. I mean, if you're talking, if you're talking passers. Well, I mean I told you about this guy, Rob. You seem to have a strong reaction, so I'll say his name and then I want you to, I want to hear your raw reaction to Jaegor Demon from BYU. Now, he has questions, but Jaeger Dimmin is the 6 foot 9 point guard. He played for Real Madrid. He's one of these kids who got pulled into their, their feeder program. He got brought over here to play college basketball, which is, which is a nice development in college that some of these, these really good European prospects are coming over. There are more of them that we can hit on. But Jaegor is very skinny, but he is inconsistent shooter. But he, he is the by far the most creative passer in this draft. He can make every type of pass. The big thing for me is that he can crowbar open passing windows. And he has a. Probably I said this early in the season. I still think it's true. He's the most creative passer I've seen in college since Tyrese Halliburton back at Iowa State. He just. I'm jealous of these people who have this ability who just seem to know where, where the ball, where they want the ball to go. But they also have this active other part of their brain where they're like, what, what lever do I have to pull.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[J. Kyle Mann]

To get this person to move? How do I do it? And then what pass do I throw? His brain is. I don't know where in life you develop that skill. I never did. But he, he's. Not that, that is any kind of real variable in this discussion, but he's, he's, he's a great live dribble passer. He's. Yeah. Jaeger Dimon, remember the name. He's, he's, he's a skilled one.

[Rob Mahoney]

He has that. A very particular combination that is attractive to me which is as you say, the ingenuity is off the charts. Like the vision and the, like the high level passes he's executing are very impressive. But he also, such an easy like read and understanding and facility with the game. And so it's like he's, he's making the little functional passes that keep offenses moving in a way that reminds me of like Franz Wagner coming into his own as a playmaker. More, more. He's probably more on the shooting end of that tilt than the driving end of that tilt. It seems like just from watching him a little bit. But overall, the fact that he can make all of those little connecting passes but also make the next level shit that really high level players even his peers in the NBA can't necessarily make, that strikes me as a very, a very interesting playmaking combination for a 69 player.

[Big Waz]

Okay. But I got a question though. Like if he's deemed to be not good enough to be your full time point guard, cause Kyle called him a point guard. Is he going to be a Josh giddy type where he becomes so much less useful when he's not always on the ball? Can he actually be effective when he's not the guy sort of driving the primary actions?

[J. Kyle Mann]

You're teeing it up was, I mean this is the crux of the conversation. Early in the year when his shot was going down. I was, I, in the first few games when his shot was going down. This is crazy, but I was, I was like, he, he, he's going to have to be talked about at number one if he was, if he's six nine and he's being. And he's making these shots. Yeah, but that, that's the problem is that, you know, his assisted usage is off the charts. 1.43, which is insane for. That's one of my favorite stats. You know, take a, take a big swig, take a drink. But you know, from three he's been very, very up and down. He shoots a long ball, he back rims a lot of threes. I don't know. You know, if you're a shooting expert, that's the funny thing about shooting staffs in the NBA is when you talk to them just universally, they're confident. There's, there's almost like a girl. Like, you know, there's like the girlfriend, boyfriend, I can fix them thing. I feel like among shooting stats or they're like, I know, I know we can fix him. But you know, he's the big thing for him is the scoring. If he can prove that he's a scorer, he could maybe graduate beyond that. Josh Giddey. I said, you know, Sean Livingston is another guy like later in his career where you get all of the Facility and all of the court vision.

[Big Waz]

But he does have that beautiful sweet mid range.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can he do something like that? He's very young too. So Livingston actually body type wise reminds me of him a lot. Like Livingston never graduated to that full time role. But you get all of his vision. It's just kind of against a set defense. Is he going to be able to score enough? I'm pretty dubious of that because if you. The book on him has been get into his body and in the big. And you know, in the Big 12 at times it was hard to watch because teams would just come at him and these are grown men like we were talking about. But he's got to prove he can score if he's going to do that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, that kind of profile does make sense to me as somebody who isn't necessarily creating the advantages but is kind of extending them. Right. If he's the guy getting the swing pass after the initial action, he, look, he seems like a great lob passer. He seems like a great connector. He seems like he's going to be able to find shooters at the NBA level. All of those things are very exciting. But yeah, he, he just may need a little help kind of getting off the block, so to speak.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, he had to play this season where he, he's had this happen a couple times where he will get. He will turn the corner on somebody. He's thrown the. He's done this more than once where he'll throw a scoop off of the backboard to a roller. I've seen him, I've seen him throw a. Contorting what looked like watching it.

[Big Waz]

He just literally just pick and roll. He got 45 off of the backboard for a lob dunk.

[J. Kyle Mann]

It's just a normal action, you know, when, when in a different system, I mean he's going to be dared to shoot. So we'll see what happens. But it's not broken. You know, he has pretty decent touch, especially if guys are passing the ball overhanded and they show a lot of touch. I feel like there's like overlap there between that and their ability to potentially develop. So I, I think if he falls into that, somebody's going to take a chance on him around in that like 7 to 10 range, in my opinion. And if they have the luxury, if it's a team that already has, you know, that is lucky enough to have some of these picks and they already have something existing in place that works, absolutely. I'd pick him up because he's. He's going to do all the stuff you were saying.

[Big Waz]

I want to get into the Rutgers kids. Cause you know, just casually they've been in the conversation basically since the year started as the two guys behind Cooper Flag and you know, Dylan Harper specifically being the guy that's, that's been deemed number two. Talk to me about what he brings to the table and why we shouldn't ding these Rutgers kids for being top two picks. But being on an absolute shit team all season.

[J. Kyle Mann]

It'S, that's one of the like really the pressing questions about this draft is, you know, if, if Dylan Harper is so impenetrable in terms of, you know, is someone going to get up there and challenge him? How much do we read into the fact that he wasn't able to steward a team or raise their floor? How much if he's an implied full time ball handler the next year, should we, how much should we ding him for that? Granted he was in and out and missed some time here and there, but he's a guy I think that is probably going to be like, I think he's going to be a second option on like the highest level quality team, maybe a third. But he's somebody that. I don't know how much I would ride his playmaking, but in terms of his superlatives, he has some of the best close range decision making and body control of any prospect that we've seen in recent memory. In terms of, in terms of his efficiency at the rim, you know, he's 6 foot. He has awesome size at 6 foot 6, but he was 73.3% at the rim this season on 131 attempts. He knows where his bread is buttered. If you watch him, despite being, you know, he has a very solid strong frame, he's sort of a six, six Brunson guy. That's kind of what I've compared him to. That's who he plays off of two feet better than any guard in this draft. And I think it's going to translate because he is legit size.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean a 6, 6 Jalen Brunson sounds pretty fucking amazing. I'm going to be honest with you. That, that does sound like an impenetrable case.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That's a. Well, actually you say that out loud and it's like, well, okay, that's a primary option, I guess.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[J. Kyle Mann]

That also implies that, I guess that that's, that sort of gets to the idea that your primary option needs to be this hub of, of all your playmaking comes from one person which is a flawed way to think about it. Right? Sure.

[Big Waz]

Yeah. He's definitely a bad guy. You know, there was a time on Twitter where, you know, does Giannis have a bag? Blah, blah, blah, Bag, bag. This. You watch this kid and he is unquestionably has a bag. He has counters to his counter. It's kind of crazy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Aggregators, you heard it here. WNY Lambre just said that Dylan Harper has a bigger bag than Giannis Antetokounmpo. Clip it, post it, spread it around.

[Big Waz]

It's just kind of crazy to be this young and have his footwork down pat. The way that he does, just the way that he's able to get into his moves is amazing. Yeah. I think Jalen Brunson is an interesting cop. You know, other people will say Shay Gilgeous Alexander. I won't, but I get it. Like, this guy is mega crafty on the ball. Um, do you think he's gonna have the sort of athletic oomph to be able to overwhelm NBA defenders at any point in his career?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I don't. I don't think that that's how he operates. I don't. Shay is such a unique case just because of.

[Big Waz]

There's never been another Shay.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah. His slinkiness and his. He just puts you in prison in terms of. And Shay. Shay has the ability to. Shay's not getting up over the square to dunk the ball. You know, he just. He imprisons you with his. With his start stop. Harper has physical. I think that he's going to be much more of a pace player. He can get to the rim and finish and in traffic and dunk it, but he has. He has a. A similar physic combination of physicality and hesitation when he's getting downhill. I've got some clips. He does some things. He just has very mature feet, like I was saying, away from the basket, too. When he, he can. He can freeze defenders and turn the corner and. And once he gets you on his back, man, he's one of those guys that he can keep you there. So. But on the year, I mean, you know, he's. The shooting is the main thing with him. If, if the shot is going to go down, that's the biggest question mark. I think when his feet are set, he's pretty solid. So you know when he's coming, when he's catching the ball 1, 2, in. In place and shooting it, it, it. He shoots a better percentage than when he's moving laterally. So, like, with a lot of. With A lot of speed and a lot of movement. So yeah, I don't think it's going to necessarily matter that he's not going to have that trump card in his, in his, in his deck where he's, that he's going to have to just overwhelm people because his physicality and his pace are going to be pretty exceptional, I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

I feel like the Ace conversation has been like star forward starter kit in a lot of different ways. I mean, what have you seen to sort of confirm that idea that he is on a serious upward trajectory? And have you seen anything to disabuse you of that notion that maybe whether it's shot selection, maybe whether it's some of the quirks of his game. Are you worried about Ace Bailey at all?

[J. Kyle Mann]

I'm worried about maybe putting all of my trust in him being a guy who like guides my team on a night to night basis because I know I'm repeating myself from things I've said other places, but he is sort of a Michael Porter Jr type at this point because MPJ at that age was a very tough shot dependent player. One of the things that's stopping him from being more dynamic is the fact that he, he is very skinny. So when he gets downhill you could just kind of see him fold like origami against pressure. We didn't see him moving and he is, he doesn't have gigantic hands, he doesn't have the most dynamic handle. He is a very, we're talking about sitting in a chair. He's very different than Cooper in the fact that their, their measurements are very similar. But, but Ace is a more lower body flexibility. He can get down and, and that kind of, that feeds into. What I think is going to be interesting about him is that I think he is a guy that end of shot clock can make shots that other guys just cannot. He was one of the percentages aren't going to necessarily indicate it but he got on some heaters this year where he didn't need to take a dribble. I mean it was like Klay Thompson type like burning white hotel can make shot and he can just rise up over you. He loves to play in like the short corner and go over his left shoulder, that type of stuff. But the thing for me is he is going to add plus weak side, you know, help as a rim protector. He's very long, he's quick off of his feet, he can, he can disrupt and bother shots. So I think that if, if he has sort of a buy in on the defensive End I think that he's going to be able to stay on the floor and add a lot of value. There's as those other things start to evolve and it's going to buy him some more Runway. If he goes out there and he's like, I'm only tough. Like the way Porter Jr. Came in the league, he was just like playing all I do is get buckets.

[Big Waz]

Yeah.

[J. Kyle Mann]

And Murray and being like why am I not shooting more? You know, if he comes in with that attitude, it's going to be tougher. But I think that he, his defensive upside is a lot higher than mpj. So if he comes in with that mindset, he could be a very valuable player. And then that other stuff, it takes pressure off of that developing, you know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Big Waz]

And the weaknesses just to stay on, on ace. Cause I think back in like 2006 like we. He'd be the number one pick. Right. Like people would see the shot making and, and say like no, this is, this is what an NBA number one pick looks like. This guy can get his shot off against anyone. He shoots it at all three levels. Um, he's got, he's got the length, he's got the sort of size that you like to pair with that kind of thing. Um, what, what are the limitations that you think are holding him back ultimately? Is it just the shot selection?

[J. Kyle Mann]

You know, right now I think one of the big problems for him, you know, his usage was pretty high, but it was all limited to. There was nothing easy in his game. This Rutgers team only really had one other good passer on it and that entered. That kind of lends itself to the discussion about like why wasn't Rutgers better. His life was not made easy in any way shape or form. Some of that is, you know, what is your buy in to affecting the game in other ways. Some of that is scheme. You can sort of divide the blame pie to steal one from, from our podfather there. You can divide the blame pie there and say okay, he could have affected the game in other ways. But yeah, it's just, it's the handle in terms of like creating for himself. I think that's, that's one of the big things. But he, you're right. I mean in terms of what he would have been back in the early 2000s. He's. He's a mid range monster. I mean he's. Yeah, like I have it pulled up here. 36% of his shots were non paint twos and that's 99th percentile in the, in the country he, you know, he does, he's really more of a shot maker. I know this gets into nerdy, jargony kind of hoopy talk here, but he is more of a child maker.

[Rob Mahoney]

What are we doing here?

[J. Kyle Mann]

If not that well then a pure shooter. So he's, he's a mid range guy, but I, I expect the three point stuff to be there if you know the hand but the handle and the decision making. The other thing was. Yeah, I mean if you're depending on your, your sort of decision making rippling out from him, you're going to be in a tough spot because he's just not proven that he's that type of guy right now.

[Big Waz]

He just takes and makes just hard shots straight up.

[Rob Mahoney]

I am sure we're going to be talking a lot about Dylan Harper and Ace Bailey probably again with Kyle as we get closer to the draft and the decision time comes up with these guys. But I do want to hit a couple more like rapid fire concierge prompts for Kyle. Kyle, who do you think is the most aesthetically pleasing shooter in this draft? Ace Bailey. As we said, a knockdown guy, a tough shot maker. Is there anyone though that mechanically speaking you, you just really enjoyed the process.

[J. Kyle Mann]

With, I mean I, I think the, the prettiest shot in this draft. You could go a lot of directions with this. I mean if we're talking about guys who are relevant that we're going to see, I mean con caniple from Duke as just a gorgeous stroke, very balanced. He can shoot it in a variety of ways. Justin and I were going back and forth about like what the hell I meant by this, but I, I, he's not one of these like shot out of a cannon Jordan Hawkins types that, that's you know, going to be shooting it super fast. And that's the thing that is, is his tool. He's got a very heavy lower body. He's, he's an unusual player in that he's built like, I'm trying to even, he's built like a PJ Tucker type, but he's a pure shooter. I mean he's, he's got, he's got the lower body of, I don't even know. It's going to be interesting for you all to, to watch him play. He's, he's, he's a heavier framed guy, good size.

[Big Waz]

He's got a big booty is what you're saying.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, well, we don't, yeah, whatever.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's, it's not a judgment, just he's.

[J. Kyle Mann]

A, he's going to be a guy who can give you some pick and roll but he's got. I, I've said this. I'm. I'm excited to see if he can develop some of that administer punishment in the mid range type stuff like a Devin Booker style bag. I'm not saying he'll become that but he has some of that pretty mid range in his game. And the other one is although I do have issues with the way he plays, sometimes plays for Texas. I don't know if Rob has monitored his guy, Trey Johnson at all. He's. He has a very pretty dribble pull up shooter jumper package.

[Rob Mahoney]

It is quite a beautiful jumper. The reception on his game overall seems quite mixed. I have not heard a lot of like glowing recommendation of Trey Johnson's game.

[J. Kyle Mann]

You as you as a Longhorn haven't dug into the trade Johnson tape.

[Rob Mahoney]

No. You, you save your dessert for last. You know that's. It's very important to me. It's going to hit close to home although we'll see if they can even get into the tournament. That would be a great start and can see him play in some meaningful games because yeah, they're in, they're in kind of the first out group. That's their way in, right?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Right. They're in the first four. But he, he is, he's one of the players that once he gets. He and, and Ace Bailey are the two that if they get going, if they get into a lather they, they can really, really put points up in a hurry. But he's very strictly face up dribble jumper doesn't get to the rim a lot talking about impacting the game in other ways. I forget Trey Johnson's out there if he's not scoring. Some of this too is. This is a little more in detail about Texas as a roster. He's playing with a point guard that is, is not a super sharing guy. He likes to score too. So it is. I have. I saw him in, in Nashville this past weekend. I was paying particularly close attention to Trey because I got to see him a couple times. He does a lot of clapping and stomping for the ball.

[Big Waz]

Really.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I since, since Poki I haven't seen somebody do that. I had a whole clip folder for Pukischevsky of him with his hands up, clapping, stomping and. But I'm kind of in this purgatory where I'm like he was playing with a guy who was very shoot first as his point guard and that's tough. That's Tough when you're, when you're a guy that's. That's a scorer.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just wasn't ready for the Trey Johnson Poku comp. But this is, this is where we.

[J. Kyle Mann]

End up in them. It's on the, on the wanting the ball front.

[Rob Mahoney]

He did temperament comp. A temperament comp alone. But was. What. What else do we want from our, our concierge service here with Kyle?

[Big Waz]

Do we have any rim protectors? Ready made, big man shot blocking, paint cloggers? Do we have any of these guys?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Boy, do we have a paint clogger. We have a, a gigantic human being and. Come on, Malawatch for Duke. I know I keep saying Duke over and over again. That's because they're got a lot of good players.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[J. Kyle Mann]

And also they're big. He is a giant. He is 7 foot 2. He just, he's a, he's a deterrent. We talk a lot about, you know, guys who, in terms of how they can guard. You know, there's guys who are just obstacles just because of how big they are. He's on that front when he has his arms up and he's just in the paint. You have to consider him. He's. He's one of those. Nope. And, and he's. Offensively, he's fairly raw. Doesn't have much of a bag around the basket, but he's a lob threat. There are some people who have a lot of confidence that someday he could shoot it in terms of just set shooting, like broken play. I've got it at the end. I need to put it up. He might be able to get there, but he's the biggest guy. The other guy that I think is really interesting is Thomas Sorber from Georgetown. I don't think I put this one on the list for you guys, but he has the hip mobility that I'm going to say a, A name that I might get struck by lightning here. He has the hip mobility of someone like an Al Horford. He moves really, really well. And I think he's going to be switchable in that 3, 4, 5 range because of that, because he has long arms and he's a good passer. So he's somebody that I think could emerge years from now as like, like, wow, that guy was in plain sight and he, he's an NBA player.

[Rob Mahoney]

But how is that hip mobility going to be a 38? That's, that's the real Al Horford question.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Nobody does like Al, man. It's. That's, That's a tough bar.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's very true. I mean we talked about rim protectors. Is there a great switchable defender in this group? Is there somebody you trust hanging on either side of a pick and roll, either side of an off ball action, junking up, moving across positions?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Well, I mentioned Colin Murray Boyles. I think he's, you know, he's a tank. He's going to be able to, you know, guard bigger players just because you're not going to be able to move him. And he laterally is very movable, moves really well. You know, obviously Cooper put that on the, on the boxes, the list of boxes that he checks and why he's number one. Richer Fleming is a guy that plays for St. Joseph's I don't know. Was. Probably hasn't watched St. Joseph since 2004 I'd imagine. Right. Am I guessing correctly?

[Big Waz]

West?

[J. Kyle Mann]

Okay. You know it's true of most people but for, for St. Joe's but you know he's, he's somebody who. What's interesting is he was in a group with Duan Wagner's son and a guy named Aaron Bradshaw. A very prospect, a very prospect loaded team and he is going to end up being the one who was drafted first of all of them. That's just a little interesting bullet note for them. But those are some guys. Sorber I think is in that group as well. But I think Ace could get there too. I think Ace has the potential to be, to be a guy who could, could, could become a defender on that level.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm glad you said that about Murray Boyles too. Cause we kind of, we kind of sped past him earlier as one of your specific group chat recommendations. And I have to say his game speaks to me. The funky post up footwork in between style. A guy who actually knows how to seal in the post. A dying art in the NBA if we've ever seen one. I feel like he could be really good to punishing switches. Right. He's a guy who's going to be a big, who's going to be like. I guess he profiles more as a, as a four potentially in the NBA.

[J. Kyle Mann]

It'S a three four, a three four.

[Rob Mahoney]

And it's like if you put a guard on him and a switch he could easily find his space against those guys, easily score inside. He has such a cool in between game. I saw like a more refined, maybe slightly bigger J. Sean Tate in him a little bit in a way that excites me.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. He's. I, I just, I think that I do this Funny thing. Not funny in that, like, I'm making people laugh, but funny. And how stupid it can be where. Where I'm looking at teams and I'll think to myself, well, you know, this team is probably going to be vulnerable against, like, bigger ball handlers who can facilitate. And it's like, you know what, Kyle? Every team in the goddamn world is vulnerable to bigger forwards who can facilitate. And I think that these guys who are three four, four three, however you want to look at it, depending on who they guard most of the time, these guys that can switch on to these bigger ball handlers, and they're not jumpy. You know, I made this point about one time about Al Horford bothers Luka weirdly, and you wouldn't expect that, but it's like Luka loves to torment people who are jumpy and. And Horford is not. And I think that Boyles has the type of wingspan and the type of mass that. To bother those types of players. So I think that he's going to be immensely valuable on that front.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why don't we close out with a cautionary tale? I would like to know, as we're watching the tournament, Kyle, who is the guy who's kind of destined to get overhyped in the tournament as a result of a big team run, as a result of maybe one good game that we shouldn't get too excited about too quickly?

[J. Kyle Mann]

That's a really good question. I mean, towards the top, you know, they're. They're the guys that have the potential to get overvalued. Like, if Trey goes on a heater, he has that real Hooper energy that I could see he's going to be. I said this in our guide to spoil there a little bit. Who's worried about that? But he's somebody that I could see. Jeremiah Fears is another type of guy for Oklahoma who could. Who could also go on a heater and get people excited. But you kind of wonder, is he. Is he more a Trey Mann type who. You know, you watch Trey Mann on the right night, and you're like, is that the best score in the league? You know, like.

[Rob Mahoney]

Because I think I literally did that on this podcast in, like, November. That was a conversation that we had on here, right here on Group Chat.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Yeah, those are two guys that I think for that reason, that could, you know, if you catch them. If you catch them in the right situation. You know, Danny Chow, who's helping me at the Guide and has done a great job, he brought up. He brought up Devin. What's his name, Devin, that played for the. I keep blanking on his name that played for the Nets in the early 2000s. But he, he's somebody that. Why am I blanking?

[Big Waz]

Devin Harris.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Devin Harris. Yeah, I always, I always blank on his name. For some reason. He's, he brought up Devin Harris too. So it's, he's one of the. They're those type category scorers who on the right night, you think that they're, they're these ultra offensive players. And then you keep watching, you're like, oh God, what's going on here? I don't, I don't want to say D'Angelo Russell, but it's, it's that type of thing. They, they, they can fool you. If you watch them in the right setting, you'd be like, wow, that's a superstar. But you're just not quite sure about that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, we're going to be too wise for that after your briefing. Kyle. Kyle, thank you so much for walking us through this. As you can tell, we know nothing. We are wading into this world. I look forward to our continue as far as who the hell any of these guys are and how they play and whether they will be good NBA players or not. But thank you to Kyle for taking us through it. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely, thank you to Ben Cruz, thank you to everyone who stuck with us through a group chat version of a March Madness guide. You know, this is not our usual territory, but I, you know, life is all about growth and some people are up in their pick and roll usage and we're out here trying to learn about college prospects for the first time.

[J. Kyle Mann]

Take this with you as you go about your March Madness watching and hopefully this can be a nice primer. I hope, hopefully, hopefully you got to watch, otherwise it's just going to be noise. So hopefully people watch March Madness.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, I feel my elitism thawing a little bit. I think I'm coming to the. I'm, I'm meeting you where you are, Kyle. I'm coming to you.

[J. Kyle Mann]

I battle about this often. Yeah, I can't.

[Rob Mahoney]

Look, I can't help it. I like good basketball, so it's a fatal flaw in my personality. But thank you to everyone for listening. We'll be back later this week with actual honest to goodness NBA talk. Although I think based on our topic, we might stretch the definition of that. So tune in on Thursday. We'll see you guys next time.

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