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The Ringer NBA Show
An NBA Draftnik’s Guide to March Madness. Plus, Expansion Is Nigh. | Group Chat
01:23:43
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- [00:00]
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- [01:27]
Justin Varior
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior and joining me, Rob Mahoney. Jay Kyle Mann. Rob had Hollywood's biggest night last night, but we have Kyle's biggest night tonight because the NCAA tournament is a go. Kyle, are you just like brimming with excitement right now?
- [01:46]
Kyle Mann
I am. I mean, it's kind of a mixed bag. You know, I'm a little, I'm not excited about my my team that I get excited to watch because I don't, you know, there's a kind of a bleak feeling over here. I don' what what that's all about. Not optimistic. But overall, man, I have this policy of that I say all the time that every team can make me happy, any basketball can make me happy and only one team has the right to make me sad. And damn it, I'm not going to do it this year. I'm going to, I'm going to push through and I'm going to have a good time. So I think it's going to be a good one.
- [02:15]
Rob Mahoney
So you sense the bleakness on the horizon. You're just rejecting it outright.
- [02:19]
Kyle Mann
You know, it's just been, it's been so up and down the vibes. We don't have to go into Any specifics about it. So I don't know. It's good to just kind of remove yourself from it because like I said, when I'm just watching ball, I'm just happy. I. I just. I skate through everybody else's misery and I'm just. I win every time I go to bed, sleep like a baby. That's what I always say. And being a fan is just. I feel like you guys are both kind of post fan, though. You really don't have any fan because I don't have any NBA fandom at all. Justin just kind of betrays his roots and just became a Portlander in full. You don't have any basketball fandom, do you? Like, none at all.
- [02:55]
Rob Mahoney
I'm just a fan of the two of you. I'm just supporting your careers. I'm just rooting for your successes. This is all I'm invested in.
- [03:03]
Justin Varior
Are you actually?
- [03:04]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Why would I not be? I'm out here trying to raise the word of mouth around you, Justin. You know, like, I'm by the water cooler. I'm not on the streets. I'm telling the people of Los Angeles all about your. You know, it was a imminent return.
- [03:20]
Justin Varior
Yeah, well, just tell them all about my flannels and the vast array and variety that I have. It's nice.
- [03:26]
Rob Mahoney
Completely.
- [03:27]
Justin Varior
I'll say this, I am excited. Not necessarily for Yukon, who has had a good season this year, ended up with a two seed. I guess I'll watch from afar. I'm actually more excited for the draft this year just because working with Kyle, I've got to experience, like, a little dribs and drabs here and there about some of these guys. I know more about them than before. And the draft class overall just seems so intriguing. And on top of that, we've done the bare minimum, Rob and I, of. Of scouting in order to do this podcast, and I have convinced myself that upwards of 10 players are, like, legit and awesome.
- [03:59]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, we're definitely at that stage of awareness where, like, you know, just enough to think that you have a formed opinion about something, but no reality checks against any of it. It really is podcasting 101.
- [04:11]
Kyle Mann
This is one of my favorite things about basketball in terms of just watching, like, it gets to this core idea of how much is enough to. If you. If you have a trained sense for basketball players, how much is enough for you to perceive the essence of something? Because I found that, I don't know, it makes me think about. I'll watch guys for hours and Hours and hours and sometimes overthink something. And then sometimes I'll watch a guy for 15 minutes and then circle back at the end of my eval and be like, yeah, what I thought in the first 15 minutes was on the money. Scoot. Henderson is an incredible example of that, where I talk to friends all the time about, like, I watched good Henderson. I was just like, man, I got big problems with this. And then I thought and I thought and I thought. And eventually I got to the point where I was like, you know, I talked myself into it and that was the wrong thing to do. But then I was thinking about Rob. Justin, you don't. You don't do much pickup basketball, right?
- [05:02]
Justin Varior
No, no. I'm just a English major waif over here. Just watching. Watching just like Prestige Television and Magnolia Pictures. Yeah.
- [05:14]
Kyle Mann
Well, I was just thinking about Robin. My experience you may have at some point gotten this. Justin, where in your. In your time, you know, frittering or just dabbling in pickup. I feel like I can watch a dude for just a couple of minutes, even in pickup, if I've never played with him. I can watch them move a little bit. How they kind of mess around and be like, okay, like, I can kind of. I don't know. What do you all think about that? That nature of just like, really overthinking something versus just fly by seat of your pants?
- [05:41]
Rob Mahoney
I do think it's a real thing. Like, the level of detail and clarity of watching someone over an extended period, I think is much better for scouting. If we're talking about, like, will this player's jump shot translate to the NBA. That's a real thing that you need, like, a level of detail and sophistication to analyze. But I'm with you, Kyle. And I would actually shrink the time period. I think you can look at someone on a basketball court and within 15 seconds, tell whether they know what they're doing or not. And certainly on a pickup court, you can tell, like, did this guy play football at any point in his life? Immediately, very clear, will he injured? Does he know how to move the ball? Those things are plainly apparent. But I felt that way even with some of these, like, scouting snapshots of just. It was so clear right off the bat that certain prospects have incredible feel. Like that's the first thing that jumps out.
- [06:28]
Justin Varior
We watch some YouTube. Let's just be honest.
- [06:30]
Kyle Mann
No, no.
- [06:32]
Rob Mahoney
Well, and synergy.
- [06:33]
Kyle Mann
But yeah, yeah, this will be fun to circle back to, I think, for people, if they. If they dare care to do it later on. And be like, oh, well, that was pretty on. But I've been on both sides of this because I'm a bald guy with who we used to play in glasses. I've benefited from people doing the like, quick look and they'd be like. And then I'm like, I'm gonna light your ass up. But then I've also been on the other side of it where we're getting ready to check ball. And I remember specifically there was a dude who came up to guard me and I remember he did one of those. He jumped in the air and tucked his knees, like, almost up to his chin, like, just did a, like, I'm getting loose jump. And I remember the internal feeling of just like, I am in serious trouble right now.
- [07:14]
Justin Varior
Kyle puts those rex backs on and it's a different game, you know?
- [07:17]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [07:17]
Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [07:18]
Justin Varior
Anyway, all right, we'll get to the draft stuff later on. We're going to do a full blown draft Knicks guide to March Madness. We'll talk through some of the big prospects. There are some lower level guys that are going to be playing in the tournament. So you could follow along from an NBA pov. But first we got to talk about a little news in the NBA. Good old NBA. Back into the expansion game. It seems like expansion is nairob. We got Seattle, we got Las Vegas on deck. Seems like next week there's going to be meetings or maybe in two weeks and they're going to vote on whether or not to add those two areas specifically. Have you already started scouting out Vegas high rises in order to make your move there and to watch the Las Vegas degenerates?
- [07:59]
Rob Mahoney
Justin, you already know I'm on top of it. Know the restaurants are scouted. We're already set there. We just need a place to live. We just need a place to hang our hats ultimately. And I think the NBA is much in the same place. Las Vegas and Seattle, like, these have been the spots for so long now. I would be shocked if this does not happen. I would be shocked if this isn't voted with overwhelming approval. The momentum has been building for so long. Like this is an inevitability at this point.
- [08:25]
Justin Varior
I'm excited for Seattle. I'm excited for the potential for Las Vegas, but more excited for Seattle just because it's three hours away from me and so I could make the nice little trip there. And obviously Seattle has the history and it just means meant so much the fact that they've been able to maintain a fan base despite the fact that there hasn't been a team for decades now really means something. And so that's great. I'm also excited that we'll finally get probably a shift in conferences where I think like the Timberwolves or the Grizzlies have to move to the east coast, which might help some people who have to stay up in certain hours in order to watch certain games or. Overall though, Kyle, I'm not looking forward to this. I don't think, like, the league is in such a good place that like, we could just add two more teams. I don't know. I just think there are much bigger issues at play here. The fact that, for instance, one third of the league doesn't give a shit for half the season. But I guess like, I guess the, the excitement bump, the like phone alert style of like, oh, this new thing is in front of me. This has to be great. Is, is something for the league. Yeah.
- [09:22]
Kyle Mann
I mean, like you were saying, it will be nice to see Memphis finally move to the east, which they absolutely should. And it's, it's interesting because Seattle and Vegas are both. I don't know. You're talking about adding. I don't know that they're going to dilute in terms of. We're not adding cities that will fail to be desirable destinations. I mean, people will want to. I don't understand why they would want to, other than the good restaurants. But I feel like that appeal. Unless you, unless you're just looking forward to life out in like Summerlin or wherever it is in, in. In Nevada. I. Of those, Those. Those cities will be like, desirable, at least on some level. I don't really have a great memory of Seattle's like free agent destination, you know, desirability. But you were talking about them maintaining a fan base. I don't, I don't see that as being such a huge feat for them because, I mean, that is as a compliment to them because the basketball culture for them not to have a team has been such a glaring hole in like, the fabric of like American basketball, period. Like Pacific Northwest basketball is incredibly rich. Incredibly rich. I, I think it's one of the more underrated kind of areas of the country in that sense. So, man, you know, they haven't really, you know, University of Washington hasn't been great. Gonzaga has been good. I guess that's been something for them to be excited about. But man, I mean, I'm very excited for Sonics basketball. I'm all about their, their history and their vibe, their gear, everything. I'm very, very pumped at to have them come back.
- [10:49]
Rob Mahoney
I'm thrilled about it. And you're right, Kyle, that it's like a greater metro concern to the point that Jamal Crawford might be like, have his jersey retired as a Sonic despite never playing for the Sonics. Like, it's. It's just in the firmaments of so much of what's happening there. We've seen generation after generation of NBA players come out of Seattle. Like, it's great that we're getting back. It's great that we're getting another market within driving distance for jv. Everyone can be happy about this in their way.
- [11:14]
Justin Varior
Yeah. I feel like if Jamal Crawford isn't a part of the ownership group, like, get that like, like 1% of 1% of 1% of that team, at the very least, he should be some sort of ambassador because he's been such a great asset for Seattle basketball overall and he's been really good on the broadcast and so that'd be.
- [11:30]
Kyle Mann
He's got a gig for life, man. That's a gig for life. And can Katie make it to 2029? That's a question right there.
- [11:35]
Rob Mahoney
Ooh.
- [11:36]
Justin Varior
I will also say, like, they. They waited just enough time in order to leverage Portland in order for the public at large to pay for the arena and not the new incoming owner. And I will have to say as. As a taxpayer here, that's fucking bullshit. And so thanks NBA for. For jacking my already outrageous taxes, but glad to see these teams back.
- [11:58]
Rob Mahoney
Well, while we're talking finances, does the price tag of this shock either of you? You know, the earliest reporting from Shams is that the buy in, in terms of the expansion fee is going to be between seven and $10 billion. Granted, the Lakers just sold at a valuation of $10 billion. The Celtics just sold for a valuation of $6.1 billion. For those who remember when the Charlotte Bobcats opted into the league in 2004, that was 300 million to get into the NBA. Very different time, very different valuation landscape. Very different market, frankly. But the seven to ten billion dollars ring true to. To y' all is like, this is the. This is the buying rate. This is the asking rate for getting into the NBA.
- [12:40]
Justin Varior
It's not my money.
- [12:44]
Rob Mahoney
It's less about. Are you so concerned about, you know, whoever is going to be footing the bill for this? And more like, does a franchise in Seattle or Las Vegas strike you as the kind of franchise that will be worth 7 to 10 billion dollars? Or is it simply if you want the right, you have to pay more than value?
- [13:02]
Justin Varior
Well, it's interesting because everything I've heard is that Vegas as a city isn't doing well because nobody leaves their house anymore. And so like that sort of economy that based entirely off of tourism and just like going out and being a degenerate like that seems home.
- [13:18]
Kyle Mann
We have that at home.
- [13:19]
Justin Varior
Yeah, that's right. But I guess like the fact that they have added so many sports teams over the past decade is an indication that they probably are pivoting more toward a traditional city model than whatever they've been. Seattle, I think there's just so much tech money floating around there. And as you seen with a lot of these locations, it does matter about the institutional wealth of the surrounding area. In order to support that, in order to make sure that things are going. I would also say that like Seattle just seems attractive overall as a city. Maybe not to NBA players, but in a way that it is just overall to young people that I think is unlike a lot of other markets. And so if they can compete, like if they are attractive enough to be a free agent destination in some of these other places, I think it actually kind of like makes it a little bit easier and more interesting playing field for free agency because we really have like four. Four teams that are really like have that advantage. If we could break up the pie a little bit, there might be a nice little trickle down effect.
- [14:10]
Rob Mahoney
I think that's a great call. I also love the idea of Vegas pivoting to a traditional city model as it's been doing, you know, as you alluded to jb, some version of degeneracy or performance art for basically the entirety of its existence. But now it's trying to be a real deal, grown up, pull up your pants city. What a time to be alive.
- [14:27]
Kyle Mann
Well, you know, the. They've. They've existed as a city in defiance of God. Like we know that city shouldn't be there technically and like ecologically. So that's interesting. But no, I think there's an interesting thing going on where this is. You mentioned the money and the tech money and the stuff going on up there. I mean it's. Granted you can do that. You don't have to live in a place to get involved with those things. But I just think it could be an interesting hot zone of opportunity for players. I feel like you hear more and more about that players being interested in investment type things and then you're talking about just them being able to support it and like the money side of it. I think you're going to have the built in corporate Stuff where I think that, you know, I think the software, you know, money is going to be pouring into the. Into the franchise in terms of tickets. I think you're going to have that side of the. Of the game going. Stuff where you're entertaining clients and people have the money to do that type of thing, and then you're balancing it with that crazy history of basketball love. I think those two things together are going to really. DMV is another example of. Of. Of this, you know, a lot of money, a lot of wealth, a lot of history, and they've. They've kept it going despite being awful. I think Seattle is going to be in good shape. I think it's going to work.
- [15:37]
Justin Varior
Do we have any. Just quickly names for the Vegas team? Anything that you guys liked? I think we might have, like, thrown around blackjacks last year with the expansion draft.
- [15:47]
Rob Mahoney
I. I do like the blackjacks. The problem is, like, I mean, aces is already quite good, and so it's hard. It's going to be hard to literally beat that in a card sense. But I. I don't know. Everything else. So corny to me. Yeah, I can't do it.
- [16:01]
Kyle Mann
The shufflers, I don't know what I'm trying to think of the gamblers, is
- [16:06]
Justin Varior
that too on the nose for the NBA at this point?
- [16:08]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, we can't.
- [16:09]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I don't think they would walk into that one, but maybe they should.
- [16:12]
Justin Varior
No, they definitely wouldn't get in bed with gambling, that's for sure. No, no, no, no.
- [16:15]
Kyle Mann
They play at the Cow She Center. Yeah, we'll see.
- [16:19]
Rob Mahoney
My question for the two of you is, how many more mock expansion drafts are we going to do before 2028? How many more times can we, you know, ring the water out of this particular towel, brother?
- [16:30]
Justin Varior
Am I going to make it two weeks? Let's get through this season. But before we start talking about two years from now, although I will say I. That is way sooner than I expected. 2028, 2029 is when the projected dates are for these new teams. Like I would have expected five years because these things just have such long rollouts.
- [16:47]
Rob Mahoney
It's true. We've been a part of that rollout for a decade now. So I think we've been. We've been doing our due diligence for a while.
- [16:54]
Kyle Mann
I kind of want to be there. I don't know. It seems like it's going to be a fun event, like when they kick that thing back off. Good vibe.
- [16:59]
Justin Varior
Little Airbnb action. Just set out a little Outpost if
- [17:03]
Kyle Mann
I can get it approved. Hey, I'll go.
- [17:06]
Justin Varior
There you go. All right. Why don't we take a quick break? We come back, we'll talk some drafts.
- [17:12]
Sponsor/Ad Reader
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- [17:38]
Justin Varior
Terms of play all right, it's that time of year where everybody in the NBA pretends to know about NBA draft picks. Kyle is already rocking and rolling, but, Kyle, this is really your time. You've been doing this all year. Rob and I are just kind of moonlighting, but this is. This is a lifestyle for you.
- [17:55]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, man. I mean, it's not like I wouldn't be doing this all the time even if it wasn't my job. That's what I always said. People ask me that you get sick of basketball. I'm like, no, I don't. I really enjoy it. So I am. I am in the, you know, in the shadows, in the quiet. I got all these sub processes going on. You guys are just watching the NBA and I'm just sitting back. I got eight screens going. I might have the Lakers next to Santa Clara or, you know, St. Mary's or whatever it is. God knows what. I've been watching college ball all year. But, yeah, it's nice to, like, finally bring some of this to the. To the light and start to figure out, you know, figure out who's going to go where and.
- [18:29]
Rob Mahoney
And all that things I have Learned today. Kyle, 1, loves basketball. 2, because he loves basketball, always wins. It must be nice to have a liberated mind.
- [18:41]
Justin Varior
Yeah. Rob and I are just out here, second screening Hamnet with. With our NBA games. Kyle's on another level, doing basketball on top of basketball on top of basketball.
- [18:48]
Kyle Mann
Sounds great.
- [18:50]
Justin Varior
Yeah. All right. We're going to go through all the top prospects playing in March Madness, so not some of the guys aren't going to be there. Caleb Wilson's obviously hurt. We'll see about Michael Brown and in Louisville, but, man, I feel good about just this collection of guys coming into the league right now. Kyle, it feels like, especially in contrast to last year and definitely the year before that, we were really just, like, digging into the Craze to find some interesting guys. Like I have down here, like 10 guys that like, are pretty exciting. Definitely like variations within that. But if you got these guys, if, if you're an NBA fan from one team specifically in the lottery, I'd feel pretty good about that. Does that feel right to you, that there's depth in addition to kind of like a top heavy situation going with this draft?
- [19:33]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I think there's a lot of depth, but I'd even push back a little bit. I mean, aside from like the Reed rob draft, the 20, 24, that. That has had some, some misses in it. I feel like we've had a lot of talent coming into the league. Like, I, you know, lately I feel like we've had a few good drafts like last year in sports in particular. These two drafts together I think are going to be a huge bolster of a T of talent. You know, even American talent, if you care about that. There's a lot of, there's a lot of good USA Basketball going stuff going on. But yeah, I, I think, yeah, this draft is going to join the group of the last few. Next year we'll see that one might be down. But overall, I think we, over the past like five years, we've had a lot of good talent. I think this, this, this class is going to be a big part of that.
- [20:17]
Justin Varior
So top three. Tell us about like, just like the top of this draft because we've heard so much about the big three guys. Peterson, Boozer, DebonSA. Does it feel like a top three at this point? Months into the season, Is there one guy who has separated themselves? Is it a two? Like, how does this all shake out
- [20:36]
Kyle Mann
at the beginning of the year? You know, it started out where we kind of had an idea. It used to be a foursome. We've talked a lot about that. But Cooper, Cooper is the same age as these guys and they used to play each other. And he reclasses, obviously, and goes a year early to Duke and then goes number one. But yeah, I mean, AJ Debanza is the guy who started early. He kind of jumped out in front. Everybody's like, wow, what a, what a crazy lanky. You know, he's 6 foot 9, he can get to the basket. He's a smooth athlete and loves to score the ball. Then we saw Cam Boozer, who obviously we know he has a twin brother who also plays for Duke, who's not considered a lottery pick, but is a good player to and is a point guard. Big height disparity between those Two, that's an interesting thing that happens with twins sometime, I guess. But Cam is a guy who was a little quieter, a little more steady. He won throughout, basically won every competition, you know, whether it was international or high school or summer league, summer ball stuff with grassroots, with eybl, and then the guy who kind of surged, who was sort on the outside of this group. But people would quietly, if you talk to scouts, they'd be like, I kind of think that Durham Peterson might be the best of the three. That, that murmuring started to happen like I don't know, a year and a half ago that I was hearing. And then the, the interesting thing is, you know, we get into the season and we're watching this unfold and we're trying to see is it a solid tier? Can anybody pierce that top three? You did start to hear some, some grumblings, some mumblings from people as AJ's style of play kind of got some scrutiny, as Darren Peterson had problems. You started to hear people start to wonder if maybe Caleb Wilson was actually sneakily in the, in the, if it was really a top four or. I've talked to some people who have, who have Caleb ahead of aj. We've heard some of that going on too. Rob smiling. I don't know why, but anyway, that's just kind of, that's where we started. I still think it's a solid top three, but there is a little bit, depending on who you talk to, there is a little bit of wiggle room that some people think that, that Caleb could be there.
- [22:37]
Rob Mahoney
I'm smiling at Barkow because my experience with, with college basketball is so divorced from the day to day happenings of what is going on across the sport, across the draft landscape that you. Even describing the full take cycle with all of these guys feels like somebody telling me about the gossip at their workplace. Like I'm like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, sure, I kind of know that guy. And that tracks. Like, I'm trying to put together why I like or dislike these players for the first time in the first place. And so to hear that they've already endured, of course, of like months, if not years of extreme scrutiny is obvious to me, but also just very funny to hear about for somebody who's just not plugged in on this stuff at all.
- [23:17]
Justin Varior
Yeah, well, Rob is just the new guy at the office. He's just got fresh eyes. He's not in the dirt of any of the workplace drama, but he's just looking at this with a fresh perspective and actually Rob, I'm curious on your end, as someone coming from this, from more of an NBA perspective, what do you think about the tournament overall? Like, do you put any weight on the tournament? Do you think we should put any weight on the tournament in terms of playing with stakes, with obviously bigger crowds and different road environments? Like, does it matter to you as an NBA scouting perspective to watch these guys in this situation?
- [23:52]
Rob Mahoney
I think it is probably the biggest, loudest distraction in scouting.
- [23:57]
Justin Varior
Okay.
- [23:58]
Rob Mahoney
Like it's. And don't get me wrong, I'm compelled by winners, I'm compelled by guys who have all of these intangible qualities. But I think a lot of those qualities tend to come out over the course of entire seasons, if not entire careers. And so over indexing on the one game that seems to be like a random dice roll of chance in a lot of senses in terms of how the bracket actually turns out, I feel like would be a real misstep when you're talking about investing the future of your NBA team. And so yeah, you take it as a data point, but even treating it as a bigger data point than what just happened in your conference tournament or what happened two months ago at the beginning of your regular season, I feel like that would be very tempting, but also very misguided.
- [24:39]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. And on the other side, I mean we do see examples though of players, I always call them, you know, hello world games where guys basically seize the opportunity in a big, in a big moment against. A lot of times it's mid majors who maybe have an NBA player on the roster and they, you know, it's a good opportunity to, if they, you know, if they fail to do it, it's a little bit more concerning. But it's a good opportunity for them to kind of establish like, hey, I have these separator qualities. I mean your mind always goes Back to like 2012 Lehigh upsets Duke and CJ McCollum is just uncheckable. That's one of the all time ones. Or John Morant taking down Marquette. That was one of the more. That was a really fun one in the first round a few years ago. It's fun when it happens, but. But I agree with you. Yeah, it's like you don't want to, you don't want to over index too much on it and you know, neglect the entire sample.
- [25:30]
Justin Varior
So perhaps more of a discovery tool than really like leaning into it for the guys that we already know are going to be at the top of the draft.
- [25:37]
Rob Mahoney
I like that.
- [25:40]
Kyle Mann
Kenneth Farid's another one I mean for, for my Morehead State Eagles, he's another guy who was like, you know, I'm sure we cheated to get him. I don't, I don't know. In the nil world we wouldn't have been able to have a guy like that. But, but he was somebody who, you know, sees the opportunity against a high major and played really well. So it can happen. But.
- [25:56]
Rob Mahoney
And maybe those are kind of the exception cases, right? It's just because the scheduling in college basketball is so different from anything you would see in a pro sport. The reality for a lot of these mid major teams is like, they just may not have an opportunity to show their stuff against the highest levels of elite talent and competition like this. So yeah, that's obviously something you should take for, you know, take into account. But as far as if you're already playing for Kansas or byu, maybe not as representative in that way.
- [26:23]
Justin Varior
All right, why don't we get into it here? We've basically established our front office. Rob is our NBA scout, Kyle is our college scout. I'm just in charge of everything. I'm both the owner and the GM and also the stats guy who like tabulates them by hand. So everything goes down to me and I will make all of the decisions. But you guys feel free to give input in your specific lanes. Okay?
- [26:45]
Rob Mahoney
It's very generous of you.
- [26:47]
Justin Varior
Let's start with Darren Peterson. Have to start with Darren Peterson. I think the guy that if you're an NBA fan specifically, you've heard a lot of murmurs about his season, mostly because he'll do something exciting and then you probably won't hear from for a while because of all this injury mess. Kyle, I'm just curious, just overall like kind of setting a baseline for Peterson, how much, how much credence do you put into all the messiness of his season with the injuries, the like maybe he could have played, couldn't play. Like, does that affect your outlook on him at all?
- [27:19]
Kyle Mann
This is one of the trickier things that has ever happened with a prospect in terms of. And we write about this in the guy because when, when guys have weird single college years and we've seen this happen where sometimes it can be a big red flag that you should pay attention to. And looking back, we're like, damn, we should have, we should have maybe thought a little more about that. You know, the example being, you know, Ben Simmons, that has been brought up a whole lot. He had a weird college year. He went to a team in a program that really wasn't great. At the time they missed the tournament and. Yeah, and then, you know, and then we go on to have weird behavior throughout his career that ends his career, you know, and then on the other
- [27:56]
Justin Varior
side, listen, man, he's just fishing for a while. He'll come back eventually.
- [28:00]
Kyle Mann
And then we. And then we have Covid produced a lot of these. I mean, the COVID era, I think, is going to be studied, you know, years from now in terms of its effect on that, on, well, humanity, you know, not just basketball, obviously, but Jalen Johnson is a guy who had a really weird year at Duke and got undervalued and got pushed down. So for teams that are smart and can see through the fog, there are some examples of guys like this in this class that we can maybe touch on. But teams that can see through the fog and are really good at reading these things, they have opportunities to squeeze value out of players. So. Yeah. In general with Peterson, though, circling back to that, from what I have heard from people, I do think something is physically going on with him. I think that is twofold. I think that I've gotten that from people that I trust who know Darren, who know his camp. And then there is the high school tape, which is something that people argue a lot about and something that's been really getting argued about and in the draft community is like, you guys say that this guy's super bursty, that he gets downhill. We don't see it. Like, I think you guys are just talking out of your ass. It's not true. If you go and watch him a lot, I have, he. He is very explosive getting in the room. He was a very physical driver. You just haven't seen as much of that at Kansas this year. So I think there are people who are trying to. To, you know, deflate his stock in that sense. And then there's the other side of it, too, where it's like, I think that it was just handled really poorly. I think the communication was handled really poorly at Kansas. So there are a lot of kind of cloudy, moving pieces to this, but I'd be curious to get your all's kind of reaction to him. Just watching him as a basketball player. What. What do you see and where do you fall on those arguments? Just looking. Looking at him. At a glance.
- [29:41]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the contrast in terms of the burst that's either there or supposedly there or not, because in watching him, like, it's clear that he is really shifty and I think will be difficult for even NBA defenders to stay in front of even kind of in his current form in some way or another. But there's not that like blow by quality in terms of what he's actually putting on the floor right now for Kansas. And not seeing that does make it hard to think of him as a future superstar in the making. If it does come back as he gets healthier, if it is something that sort of levels out in his game, all of that kind of tracks. Like, I love the way he shoots, I love the poise and his ability to finish their contact. I like again, even his ability to kind of sort his way through traffic. All that stuff is super impressive. But for someone who already like, I already have questions about like, what is his feel or what is his inclination to pass. And if you're going to layer on top of it the fact that he may not have the most explosive start to his drives in the world, that feels like a maybe a star, but maybe not a superstar to me. And so I can't wait to see kind of what the truth of it is.
- [30:49]
Justin Varior
So I'll be honest, watching the little of Peterson that I have, I'm surprised that there is a debate at number one because I just see the way that he has an economy of movement and just like the way that his ability to go about getting buckets feels drilled and refined in the way that especially in contrast to AJ DeBonsa just feels like already an NBA like skill and approach. Like if you dropped him into a Pacers game tomorrow, I don't think you would bat an eye as opposed to with the Bond. So it feels like a little bit more chaotic, a little bit more natural scoring. This feels like almost the marriage of Cam Boozer who might be like the extreme example of this, of someone who's just like so fucking dialed in. Like he has the dialed in part of him, but also the athleticism and he plays the type of position that I think is just at a premium and in the, in the NBA. And so I guess Kyle, my question ultimately with him is because in the little. I've watched him like, holy shit, this guy seems to have everything like what are we missing with him? And like what would make teams pause about not just automatically be him being number one one.
- [31:53]
Kyle Mann
I frankly don't know what the pause would be because I still have Darren number one and I still believe in the burst downhill. I think that, you know, I don't know if you guys have ever had like hamstring injuries. It really, really does affect your ability to, to propel yourself. And if you're healing from that. I do think that he's tried to play and I think that I'm sure that it, it's in your mind at some point that it's, it's a tricky injury. You know, I'm not, I'm not gonna act like I'm like a sports orthopedic or a sports medicine person, but I do think you can make it worse if you, if you don't rest properly and you push too much. So I think that's been going on. But in terms of like what can make people hesitate? I mean there's some of that, like what Rob was saying. Like I, I've, I said that I've said this and I think I phrased it this way in the guy that he, he has had the chair pulled on his game in a way where the pull up stuff has been unbelievable. Like his, his shot chart. If you look at the way that he shot the ball last this year, I mean it's a lot of red. I mean he's very, very good in the mid range and I think he's taking more of those shots than he's going to be taking going forward. But I think it's hampered his ability to get to the free throw line, his assisted usage, which, you know, just how well do you move the ball when you have it versus scoring? It's been very scoring dominated this year. Like Rob was saying and him getting off of the ball. This is a thing where you're going to have to sort of trust your eyes and not lean heavily on the number here. Like, because I've seen him make very, very advanced passes in the pick and roll where there's over help. He can skip it to the window. I think some of this is the result of he had a bumpy start for Kansas. This team was designed to be built around him. He wasn't available. He's trying to reintegrate himself. And the way that he's reintegrated himself is he's coming in as sort of like a dh, almost like come in and give us buckets. So that's why I think that even though shotmaking has been incredible, we haven't seen the, the full dynamic package that I think he actually will provide. And I do agree that you, if you just dropped him into a game right now, all three of these guys are like Cooper, I think they'd go and perform and perform well. They're that good.
- [33:59]
Rob Mahoney
I do think he just feels like a, what do you even do with this guy? Kind of Score. And I say that as a defender, like, what are you supposed to take away? How are you supposed to deny the things that he does best? That's incredibly compelling to me. And again, just like the ability to capitalize on already innately difficult shots. And if Kyle, like you're saying, if he's able to modulate in terms of style and circumstance and in that DH role, but also in potentially more starring roles also maybe as he comes into the NBA in a supporting role, depending on who drafts him, like, that's a really exciting prospect. That's someone who you can really envision a future with charting in all sorts of directions. And that's, that's all you really want if you're picking in the top three.
- [34:41]
Kyle Mann
To me, this is the most interesting thing, and I think I said this with Bill a couple weeks ago, is that the funny thing for me is that through this odd situation, I think that he, he. A lot of, a lot of different comps get thrown around. We were talking about this the other day where the more I watch him, the more I get the way he carries himself, his skill set, the passes he can make, the shots he can make, his pace, his gait. I see more and more young James Harden in him the more I watch him. Wow, he's that type of talent. I really, really think so. And what's interesting is through this odd season he's revealed that he is just as effective and damning as somebody who can just go initial pick and roll is not here. I'm just going to go off ball for a second, come off of a floppy action. Come on. He's a crazy movement shooter. And I would throw this to you all in terms of like guys in the NBA. Harden doesn't play this way anymore, but he did when he was younger. How many guys in the league can be elite pick and roll scorers, but also just as easily at his size, be like, I'm going to run off of an off ball action and be an elite off ball movement shooter. Not a ton of those guys. Steph Curry, who, who else? It's not, it's not a long list.
- [35:50]
Justin Varior
It's tough because we're also seeing the trickle down effect of the heliocentric style coming like being like ingrained in. Some of these go to scores from the start. And so it's almost like the advancement of that same idea because you're right, like not only is he doing hardness stuff, the confidence that he plays with while he's doing it is almost like neo level. I'm Two steps ahead of you. And I've already determined that this is going to happen. It almost feels like it's too easy for him, him at the college level. Like the step back into the pull up is just so like drilled in and just like so ahead of the defense that he's getting it off at ease and like we'll just split two and it just doesn't seem like it's hard for him. And so in terms of like all the messiness on the court I'm watching, I'm like, is part of this because he's kind of the genius in the back of the class where he's so far advanced on this that like he's just bored because he plays sometimes. Like this is too easy for him.
- [36:40]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. And it might well be. And to be honest with you, Kyla, as you were bringing up like the idea of those sorts of shooters who could be dominant on the ball, who can also play off the ball in that capacity, a lot of them are guys that are fitting what Justin's describing too. The kind of like it's almost too easy for them to at a certain point and they have to learn how to play with NBA focus. Like Anthony Edwards is another great example. I know. I've heard that comp for Darren Peterson. I don't know if I like that's a level of athleticism we're going to have to see to believe in terms of projecting that like mapping that onto him. But the other guys in the NBA who fit that bill as versatile shooters who can just kind of switch between those roles whenever they want are those kinds of athletes. It's guys like Ant, it's guys like Tyrese Maxey. It's guys who can dial it up or pull it back whenever they need to. I would say the only other exception to the rule is maybe someone like Jamal Murray who has some of the bob and weave to him that on like. I honestly see a little bit of that in Darren Peterson right now too. He doesn't have a Nikola Jokic to play off of per se. But just in terms of the shifting of pace, the way he navigates, I can see a little bit of Murray in him off the dribble.
- [37:46]
Kyle Mann
And there's a thing that goes on too with, yeah, there's some Murray there totally. And like coming off of like dribble handoffs or just sort of the like stacked actions kind of idea, which has been such a refreshing movement away from the Helio thing that I was excited about at the time. But I got. I Got fucking sick of it at some point. It's just like. Like you were saying, Justin, it's like the evolution of the league. This is sort of, you know, and we've seen this with Sky. Like, Lamelo, I think, was sort of an example of just. Just rapidly stacking actions like pick and roll come off a screen kind of a thing. The way the Hornets are playing, it's exciting. And another thing too, in terms of like interpreting the way he's playing is. I think if you're wired the way that he is, the way that things have been going, it's that no country for old men thing where it's just like the more you, you know, while you're lamenting what's. What you've lost, there's more going out the door kind of a thing where I think that puts an urgency in him maybe to when he does get into some of these games, he's just like, I got to get it. You know, you just. You're trying to get back what's gone and you're just playing a little. You're. You're maybe hunting your shot a little bit too much or you're just trying to be that star that you were supposed to be all year. And I could see that in him sometimes in a way that just didn't. It's not as calm and present as Kansas would look just running their offense without him, which I think would cause people to be like, oh, they're better without Peterson. It's just like, no, they just haven't ever had to be com. Like a comfort. Comfortable time with him in the lineup. If that. If that makes sense to.
- [39:07]
Justin Varior
Yeah.
- [39:08]
Kyle Mann
Too. Yeah.
- [39:09]
Justin Varior
Let's. Let's flip to Cam Boozer now because he's the complete opposite of that scenario. A guy who's been there throughout the season and has excelled virtually in every aspect. I renewed my Ken Palm subscription back from like over a decade ago. So I'm back in the mix here since my. My UConn blogging days. And I noticed that his offensive rating as a like an individual player is 133.7, which is not only the first in the country, it is also the highest on record in Ken Palm, which dates back to 04. Just the efficiency the leads the league in rebounding, I believe. 50, 40, like 80 as a shooter. It's just like really the maximization optimization of like a player type just seems to already be there on top of the fact that he's built like Kevin Love already. Like the. The chiseled late Season like late career. Kevin Love. It's hard to find things not to like about him. Kyle, is there anything that jumps to
- [40:05]
Kyle Mann
mind you're mentioning like the stats in terms of, in the, in the analytics era, I ran this, you remember we ran this stat initially in the profile and it, it kind of a couple guys filtered out over the last, the last like two or three games of the season. But at one point I think in late February I ran this filter on stat head that was like freshmen who scored over 20 points a game at over 60, 60% true usage, I think. Was that the only filter? Was there another one on there? But there had been 10 freshmen who had done that or I think it was, maybe it was. No, it was 30, 30 total. And then seven of them were in the top 10 this season. So there were seven freshmen who were averaging over 20 points per game at over 60% true usage. But Cam was at the top of that, you know, so he's somebody that. A lot of that efficiency, you know, obviously comes that. He is just sort of the big kid on the playground around the basket. I think that's where people get distracted by him and they, they see somebody and they think, okay, he's this archetype. So that is a mistake. Speaking about like the, you know, the speed scouting approach that you could make if you didn't watch enough of him. But he's very, very dynamic. I was curious, Rob, what, what's your initial reaction to Cam Boozer? Watching him?
- [41:17]
Rob Mahoney
I love it. I would inject this tape into my veins. Just the idea of an 18 year old who knows exactly who they are is an incredibly appealing idea from a prospect scouting perspective, but also I think an aberration in a lot of basketball senses. If he was just the big kid on the block, that would be fun and certainly in a college setting would be really exciting to watch. The part of his game that almost single handedly defines his NBA potential to me is just the feel in the passing. Because so much of life as a big in the NBA is what do you do with four on threes? What do you do with three on twos? What do you do when you create advantages? And it's just so obvious. He knows exactly where the ball needs to go and that is the make or break skill. That is the thing that to me makes me super confident in the idea that he can be a good player for a really long time despite every other aspect, despite, you know, like I don't know how he performs against bigger, lankier centers. We're going to have to see Kyle. I'm sure you're more plugged in on that than I would be. But I just feel really confident in his ability to tether things together. Given the feel that is just so obvious in the way he plays.
- [42:23]
Justin Varior
I think it's boring watching him. Like I'm kind of bored because he's just isn't really dynamic. But I also mean it ultimately as a compliment because he just makes so many of the right passes and the right reads and the right plays all the time. And so like, if you're the Wizards or one of these teams that needs like a top of the marquee guy, I'd be like, oh, okay, great player. We're going to have a lot of efficient basketball on our hands. But if you're in the front office, you're like, holy shit, this is porn. Because like he does everything right at a high level.
- [42:53]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. And you know, if you're looking at the way he plays and you're still worried about, you know, him being that sort of a separator difference maker guy who produces, you know, you don't want to draft somebody at number one who, you know, you're just like, oh, this is a great vibes guys. Just efficient. But he's, you know, it's like, but he averages 14 points per game. It's like, where are the points going to come from? You know, at some point you do need to put up up stats and things like that to, to sort of draw the respect to make the passing and stuff work. And there's been some worry, I think, you know, in that game against Virginia there's, there's always like a game that just sort of like throws a fly in the ointment which is, you know, he was getting a shot blocked a lot by this long guy. Uganda onyenso for, for Virginia. And people are kind of worried about that. But I think in the NBA game, I don't, I don't think you're going to see him lingering near the basket as much because he does do so many things you were saying it's boring. But he just has a Borg like quietness to his game that he doesn't self sabotage really in any way. And any, any way that you would try to take him off the table. He has an answer for it. He's developed into like a 40% three point shooter. He's not shooting them at volume. I mean he shoots most of them set shots, but they're, you know, they're good. He doesn't take Bad shots. He has a nice kind of overhanded shot putt game in the middle of the floor. He's going to draw fouls. But you said the passing man. Last year, we were talking about, like, who is the best passer in the class. And I was starting to kind of fill that out for this group. And I. I briefly considered Boozer because I think that his passes are different than you might get from a guard. But the time I actually texted our friend Caitlin Cooper about this, I was like, I wish you could know the amount of time that I have sat and just imagined as a basketball fan, Cam Boozer and Tyrese Halberton playing together, because I feel like, plug. It would be like plugging a nice guitar into a nice amp. You'd be like, I liked this guitar, but it sounds even more incredible to this. Nice. I just think them together could be incredible. Like, I think the passing is the thing. Sorry, that was. That was. That was a monologue. But. But he's. He does a lot of stuff.
- [45:04]
Rob Mahoney
Suffice to say, I think it bodes really well for the top of this draft class that you could say some version of that thing about most of the elite prospects that a team like the Pacers that we just saw go to the finals that has, like, style and a system and a flow and a lot of stars you would need to. Or not stars, but, like, a lot of quality players you would need to work with, all of them make sense there. And Cam absolutely is that kind of player. You know, the questions about, like, where he would fit positionally with them, I think would be much more thorny now. But he can. He can definitely play in that sort of flow. And the processing is so evident. And in particular, the idea that you have a big. Who can see the floor the way he does on the move, but also has the footwork to get to lots of different things within those intermediate spaces. Justin, I gotta say, I find it exciting. I get what you're saying about, like, boring as a compliment, but I find it to be. I don't know, it's making me feel alive.
- [45:57]
Justin Varior
Well, let's get to AJ DeBonsa now, because I feel like if. If Cam is the amp, then AJ's like the crunchy death metal distortion pedal because it's just like all. All raw talent. Like, he is out there fucking raw talk. So I'm curious. Yeah, I'm curious how you stack up the trio here with Peterson, Boozer, debons. Is that how you would rank them going, like, as of right now?
- [46:25]
Kyle Mann
On the 16th, I personally still have Darren number one, I have Cam number two. AJ is number three. AJ does. This has kind of been the arc for him is. You know, I saw AJ when he was like, like 15 years old at Saint X High School, just down the street like 30 seconds from my house. And I was just like, couldn't believe how fluid he moved with the ball in his hands for his size. Something that has happened with him though that I think is interesting is at that point there was an athleticism advantage that he had in a physical maturity that he had at 15 that I think the gap has closed a little bit in terms of like how I thought about him initially I was like, okay, this guy. I'm trying to think of the elite like the, like an OG on an obi. Like oh my God, he is in crazy explosiveness, gap closing, length and strength and speed and things like that. The gaps closed a little bit. I don't think that he's necessarily as much of a high, high flyer, bendy athlete as I thought, but he's still a very balanced and coordinated athlete. He's very smooth with the ball in his hands. He, you know, he's, he can run, pick and roll, he can play. I do think that he likes to shoot off of his own dribble better than he does catch and shoot. Because these guys that just jump to the moon on every single jump shot, I don't love it. I don't know how you all feel about that. I'd like you to have a little bit of a tippy toe catch and shoot thing. But I've had a little bit of worry and I expressed some of this in the guide. I have a little bit of worry about his process in getting off of the ball, the speed at which he does it. He's been a little bit sticky. But something that I think people are going to have to think about for themselves and I think teams will, is that BYU had way less talent than Kansas or Duke. Way more. Was asked of the AJ Debance and how would that have looked? Differently. Different in a different situation. Those are my concerns. That's why he's third, because I'm not. I don't have as much faith in him as a passer as the other two guys and as an efficient scorer. So that's kind of where I sit. But I also, I still think he's going to be a really good player.
- [48:21]
Rob Mahoney
I might need more concerns than that because this is the like AJ defense is the kind of player watching him in the haphazard scouting way that Justin and I did. It's like, is this the best basketball player on earth? Like he looks incredible in a, in a highlight like synergy eyes, discreet play format looks incredible. But you lose all the context. You're talking about Kyle when you look at a player that way. All of that connective tissue, all of the like decision making sense, navigating over the course of a quarter or a game without all that, he looks unbelievable. And so if, if there's any hope that the rest of it can come together, whether that's a situational awareness, whether that's a play context, whatever it may be, like he, he has everything that you need in a potential superstar, everything you need in a franchise cornerstone. Like I, I, I have heart eyes watching him play. Like there's just something about, about the style and the explosiveness and the variety and also just like the downhill coursing style of his game that is pretty undeniable from just like a scouting and watching perspective.
- [49:26]
Justin Varior
I'm interested with him. What's going to happen once he gets into an NBA system. Does he buy into the refinement and like sort of the dialing in, in the way that like Ace Bailey has done a little bit better than expected? Yeah, because I think when you see debons, I, you think just pure scoring talent, shot maker. And he does a lot of that, especially considering as Kyle will tell you, BYU doesn't have a lot of talent there. He's kind of been asked to do a lot of that. But I look at him, I'm like, man, there's a lot of power and strength to that build that seems to be untapped. Danny Chow and the draft guy that we're going to be publishing on Wednesday, one of his lower comps is Tim Thomas. And I can almost see like a more optimized Tim Thomas version of him
- [50:07]
Kyle Mann
where this is news to me.
- [50:09]
Justin Varior
I didn't know that well, Caleb Wilson for instance, like that is the foreground, right? It's, it's the size is the athleticism and whatnot for aj I feel like it's just like the pure almost like Kobe build, shot making, just like pull up game shooter, all that stuff. Whereas I almost feel like there's another like level to him to hit. And I'm curious if he taps into that side of it because that seems to be the bridge between him and someone like Peterson who has that just innately.
- [50:35]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know that you could have said a name that would have been more appealing to me. Weirdly than Tim Thomas, because Tim Thomas, he is the kind of player where, if you played with Tim Thomas, this is a very NBA Live heavy week of this podcast, apparently. But if you played with him like on an NBA Live or NBA, I think he's maybe even pre 2k.
- [50:52]
Kyle Mann
He was unstoppable. He was unstoppable everything.
- [50:55]
Rob Mahoney
If you can make the decisions for Tim Thomas and he is not a basketball player in a perpetual state of implosion, he's incredible. And so, yeah, if AJ DeVonse has all of the skills and the talent and the aptitude of a Tim Thomas, but is making better calls when he has the ball in his hands or doesn't. Yeah, that's a. That's an incredible player.
- [51:13]
Kyle Mann
Couple. Couple things, Rob, We've got to get you to like a summer high school basketball event because all of these power forwards that we loved from the late 90s into the early, they're.
- [51:24]
Justin Varior
They're all out there.
- [51:26]
Kyle Mann
They're all dads. They're all dads. And you go to these events and Jermaine o' Neal and Sharif Abdur Rahim and Tim Thomas and all these dudes are just walking around. I have a specific memory of like, going, I was going to the bathroom and there's a tall guy walking in front and he turns around and holds the door for me. He's like, you go ahead, man. It was Tim Thomas. And I was like, oh, so, yeah, so a lot of that's going on, but.
- [51:50]
Rob Mahoney
Well, this has been the first installment of Kyle Mann's Tales from the Bathroom. I think we could just do an update every week if you want.
- [51:56]
Justin Varior
No.
- [51:56]
Kyle Mann
Did I tell another story from the bathroom? I forget. Anyway, no. I mean, speaking to. I think the starting point of how I viewed him to what you just said, I think is very true. Whereas, like, I think that and what Justin was saying about just, just his body and everything and who to compare him to is. I don't think that he's. He's in the same category that I initially thought, like, people say Andrew Wiggins, like, Wiggins was really, really testing wise, like a bonkers athlete. Like, combine wise. I really think the thing that is going to be his marketable thing that he can trade on is the fact that he can move in odd ways and stay really balanced. I pulled out a lot of clips that I. I don't know if we'll be able to put them in the guy, but I can tweet him out or put him somewhere, but his feet are very smart and advanced. Whether that's just. He has a natural feel for it or they very schooled. Like he can change directions and he makes these weird Euro moves where he can clear paths for himself to the basket. I think that he's going to have kind of an irregular way that he moves in a combined with a strength that's going to make him extremely difficult to deal with. But where he scores from is kind of the thing that I'm. I'm wondering about right now because he really loves those kind of DeMar DeRozan, like 13 footers with somebody on him and it's kind of like, like where's he going to live and die offensively, you know, Because I know he's going to generate free throws, the three point shooting and things like that. I, I'm curious though, like where do you all see him in terms of like a Jason Tatum or like the way those guys moves? Is he in that category or what do you think just from watching him a little bit?
- [53:24]
Justin Varior
I don't know. The Tatum comp doesn't ring true for me in the way that it did for players past like Cooper and some of these other high level prospects. I don't know if it's just because there's something a little bit more chaotic to not only his playstyle but just his energy overall. Whereas Tatum to me is the representation of someone who's just like so rigid to the point where it's almost just like you want to shake him in order to get him a little bit more flexible in terms of his approach, not only in terms of his like body movements. So for me it just, it does hearken back to some of these power wings of the past where it just feels like there's just this raw energy to him and like how do you really tap it? I almost feel like, like I keep thinking of Ace in part because if Ace was just more successful, perhaps if he went to a different team where he had more talent overall, but also didn't have to play with Dylan Harper where like it would have been a little bit there because there's just like this pure shot maker ID stuff going on with him that's hard to ignore.
- [54:21]
Rob Mahoney
I agree with you like visually, stylistically, in terms of the way he moves, it feels very different from even a young Jason Tatum. But I think think where I do see some comparison is at least in my memory, I remember Tatum coming into the league and wasn't necessarily a top tier shooting prospect, wasn't necessarily a top tier defensive prospect, but has turned into one of the Best players in the league in both regards. And if you told me AJ debonza comes into the NBA and within a couple of years is an impact defender within a couple of years takes a huge leap as a shooter, that would track for me. And so I could see him being on, you know, Jason Tatum is a very lofty standard for anybody coming into the league. But if you told me he was on a Tatum like trajectory based on his gradual refinement in the NBA, that part I could definitely see.
- [55:06]
Kyle Mann
He, that's something that we need to touch on is that AJ is a competitive mfer. I mean like he, he will take on, he wants tough defensive assignments. So I, I don't think that he's going to. I just kind of, I don't know. I've been wrestling with him a lot lately because I went, I went and watched him in person at Cincinnati a couple weeks ago now and he didn't physically dominate the game the way I wish he would have. And it kind of brought out. But then you kind of go back and you're just like, well, these guys that are super, super burdened, they're carrying such a, such a load on both ends of the floor. It could be hard to sort of process that and know how to properly kind of take it in and weigh it. But there's also the thing of like with NBA space, it's very different for guys his size. There are a lot more kind of little, you know, water bug guards that get in gaps and things and it's just like the, there's. You really, really watching a lot of college and NBA get a sense for wings are the guys that, that, that really translate more. These guys that can move, that are big, that can play bigger, a lot of the smaller guys get filtered out and I think that really is even just aside from the, the longer three point line, the more skill, the spacing and the personnel that are in the spacing change so much when you level up to the NBA from college.
- [56:20]
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- [57:30]
Justin Varior
All right, so we talked about the big three here. Number four is interesting, at least from an outside perspective because it seems like it might be a little bit more flavor based. But for you, Kyle, does it seem clear cut who four is, or is it really more eye of the beholder which team ends up in that spot?
- [57:47]
Kyle Mann
I've gone back and forth about this. I, I think it's Caleb Wilson. I could see teams talking themselves in into like worry about, you know, is his. He loves, he's like a mid range guy. He loves to kind of do the little stutter, rip, get to his shot. He lit up Duke like that at, at, at the Dean Dome not too long ago. Like wondering about his ball handling, will it evolve? But I think defensively, man, his upside is so high. He, he's super, super explosive. I think he was third in the country this year in, in dunks. He just, he gets up high, way higher than, than, than other people if he has any kind of like a step. So I think the defensive stuff really kind of sets him apart in a way that there's not really an anal. There's not a really. He doesn't really have a peer. In terms of his defensive upside, I think it's. His, he's. His defensive upside is higher than the top three guys too. I think it's very, very possible.
- [58:41]
Justin Varior
And he's, he's out for the tournament. What is it? Broken finger. Right. And so we won't be able to watch him.
- [58:46]
Kyle Mann
Broken thumb.
- [58:47]
Justin Varior
Yeah, broken thumb. What about after that in terms of
- [58:53]
Kyle Mann
who I think comes next? Yeah, this is, this is tough because there is sort of like a little burgoo of guys where, you know, you'll hear people talk about Keaton Wagler was a guy who kind of came on. But I have kind of worked through this process to the point where Kingston Flemings for Houston was there for a while. I'm having a harder and harder time keeping you Know, Braden buries out of the, the range of the top five.
- [59:23]
Justin Varior
Okay.
- [59:24]
Kyle Mann
Did you guys get a chance to watch him?
- [59:25]
Rob Mahoney
I did. He was actually the guy who I had the exact reaction to of. I can tell within 15 seconds that he knows what he's doing. Like it, it just his court awareness. I, I think especially hearing that he was somebody who started the season a little slower and then all of a sudden caught this groove. Like, makes total sense to me. Not a top tier athlete, maybe not a top tier shooter again, but I don't know. Also don't know what's going on with, with him age wise. I'm going to need you to explain that to me, Kyle. But just a basketball player I would feel super comfortable having on the floor for my team that is actually trying to win games.
- [60:00]
Kyle Mann
He's a little older on the age curve in terms of. But I don't know. Having my own kid. I've like been told that that's more and more normal to hold kids a year. Like, it's just more accepted than when we were kids. I don't know. Anyway, but for basketball players, obviously they have their different reasons for doing it. I honestly, the athleticism thing is so nuanced from talking to people who like chart these guys and talk about the way they measure and things where we're just like, well, he doesn't jump high. It's like he's very, very fast in the open court. If he has the ball, man, I mean, he really stresses the defense. He's strong. His feet are very quick, his hands are really quick. Is he going to be like a consistent guy that creates his own shot from 3? I don't, I don't trust that yet. But I think he's going to be a good catch and shoot player. He can make simple reads and passes. He's very competitive. Like you were saying, he's spatially smart. I just look at some of these other guys and they're just worries. Like Keaton Wagler, I think is going to. He's gonna, he. I think he's gonna be an elite shooter in the NBA. But he struggled against physicality. You know, Kingston Fleming's very, very fast. He just seems small. Even though he's listed bigger. I just, I worry about it. I worry about him getting to his shot consistently.
- [61:09]
Rob Mahoney
But there are. If there's a single player I want to see at the combine, it's Kingston Flemings. That is the fakest 64 I have ever seen listed.
- [61:18]
Justin Varior
Yeah, he was 63 somewhere. And then I saw like on the official docs and say he was six four. I was like like bro, he's closer to six feet than anything I will say about him though despite him being small is he doesn't seem like he plays without strength. Like there was one shot and like obviously Houston's on a heater and he's been playing well against some of these top guys. Like he just played against Kansas, beat them like handedly beat BYU with the bonds of the fact that Houston and BYU are in the same conference in the Big 12 is fucking disgusting. But that's a whole other story. But like he used his head to create space on someone in Kansas. I was like, oh, this guy like literally a hard nosed player. And so that is a nice trade off. But you're right with some of these guys that are like 6:3, like grinders especially that don't have the feel of someone like an a cuff. I'm like, are you really gonna waste like a top five pick in this draft on someone like that? Because there are just so many questions about that at this point.
- [62:12]
Rob Mahoney
See, I actually feel again based on my very extensive scouting on the subject, Fleming's feels so much safer to me than a cuff does. And I think, I think, oh no, no, no.
- [62:24]
Justin Varior
I love auff.
- [62:25]
Kyle Mann
I love it. Go ahead. No, you guys talk about this. I will weigh in.
- [62:28]
Justin Varior
I'll let you go.
- [62:29]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think like
- [62:32]
Justin Varior
little talk here,
- [62:36]
Rob Mahoney
here at the kids table. If I can, if I could take my, my stand for a second. I just find a cuff to be like a really confounding prospect because I don't have a sense of what his NBA role is or should be. Clearly he's a really good passer, but being a good passer in the NBA is dependent on your ability to create advantages. And I just watch him, I'm like, I'm not sure that guy's going to be able to create advantages in the NBA. And so then it's a question of, okay, how do you modulate your role? And this is someone who, if you're not going to be able to break people down and you're not a plus defender and he does not look like a plus defender, what is it that you're going to be asked to do?
- [63:13]
Justin Varior
So I went to last year's Hoop Summit and I'll be honest, while I was there, I was thinking to myself, when am I ever gonna use this? Like the, the exercise was fascinating. I love being a part of was great. No, in terms of just like a fish out of water. I was just like, my mind was blown. I'm just overhearing conversations from executives that I'm probably not supposed to be eavesdropping on. It was great. But I remember after the fact that another executive asked me. He's like, oh, who was your guy? Like, who. Who did you like? And obviously Debonsa and Boozer are just like the obvious choices. Boozer, by the way, like, even last year was just built like an absolute brick house. And so I just don't know how humans are like this at 17 and 18. Just didn't happen for me even then. But maybe now that I'm at the gym. But acuff, I was like, that guy just has a sense for, like, making the right plays that I just feel like is unteachable. And obviously he had a good game in the Hoop Summit game itself. I assumed, and I think I said this at the time, like, he feels like the type of guy who's going to play three years in college, he's going to win two national player of the year trophies, and he'll be. That might struggle in the NBA with the transition, all that, because the measurables aren't there. But like, I'm watching him in these big games and maybe I'm just enamored with the college environment and just how much of an absolute fucking badass he is. But like, man, he just has something that's unteachable and if you are confident enough in the athleticism and whatnot, that that will translate enough. He seems like the guy who will just make things happen regardless of what it might say and spit out in terms of like, the analytics and. And just like the. Just the pure eyeball test.
- [64:49]
Rob Mahoney
I hope that's true. He looks like a really good college point guard. That's what he looks like to me.
- [64:55]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. In terms of just his makeup as a person, he's. He's never really high or low. I mean, after a big play, you might. You might see him like, yell. I mean, occasionally, but he always has that stoic. I will say, at the hoop Summit, I was very encouraged, slash discouraged, by the way fashion sort of circles back in a way that makes me feel old because the way he was wearing his braids and his shorts was 100% would have been on the COVID of SLAM when I was in high school. And I was just like, man, God damn, I'm old.
- [65:22]
Justin Varior
Anyway, T.J. ford shorts. Yeah.
- [65:25]
Kyle Mann
Yeah. But I personally loved it. Anyway. Yeah, so he's. He is very. You know, Isaiah was saying he's A dog. He's dogged in terms of. He has a focus about him that you love. You watch the way that he plays. I personally think that what you're saying is true. Rob about him is like an advantage creator off of the balance. I think he's got a good handle. I think the Allen Iverson, Derrick Rose stuff that people say about him is just crazy.
- [65:51]
Rob Mahoney
Like that's the thing people are saying.
- [65:52]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, man, like, I just don't, he's okay.
- [65:56]
Justin Varior
I don't see it in the game, I'll say that.
- [65:58]
Kyle Mann
No, man, he's not a, he's not, he can dunk, but he's not somebody that is just gonna like, like wiggle through creases and like improvise like off of. When he, once he leaves it, once he leaves his feet, he's kind of stiff in the air. Like, he's, he's not a bad athlete, but I just don't think that his bend is the same like the way that he sits down. And I think that hurts him on defense. The defense is like reaching like Trey, Trey Young levels of concern. Like, like I, I, I, there's, there are the, you know, errors of commission and omission here where it's just like you go about something incorrectly or you're not paying attention. It's kind of like he has stints where he's doing both, both. But offensively, man, I think he's probably going to compress into like a quality starter type role. I don't, I don't, I, I could live to eat these words. This will get clipped out. I think that he's going to be a guy who's just on a good team. But you know, the thing is, if the defense continues to be an issue, you're going to, you're going to have to take that into account with the way that you build around him. So, you know, I was thinking about, like, if Dallas for some reason ended up with him. They have enough length and size. You're just going to have to consider those things because in terms of a two way, he's good hands too. And maybe, maybe he figures it out. But I think that's something you're going to have to account for.
- [67:10]
Rob Mahoney
I think it changes the way that your context manifests in those first couple years in the league too. Because if you're, if you're a guard like Flemings, who, no matter where you get drafted, you're going to be able to like, get into people defensively, I could see a team like Washington drafting Drafting Flemings and playing him with Trey Young for a, like, serious number of minutes, because I could, I could imagine that working. But with Acuff, it's like if, if you can't guard people and you have these spatial and size restrictions and you kind of also need the ball in your hands to do the best things that you do, you have to take that into account as far as, like, what are the first three years of his NBA life going to look like?
- [67:46]
Justin Varior
Yeah, but what about the dog quotient? How many dogs are in Fleming's as opposed to Acuff, because he's got a whole fucking kennel.
- [67:53]
Rob Mahoney
I just feel like you can't claim to have that dog in you if you don't guard anybody. That's the dog. That's the dog's job. You know, like, you gotta guard the house. It's the whole thing.
- [68:04]
Kyle Mann
We should, we should give him some love. I know we've expressed some of the concerns and we've praised his doggedness here, but I mean, the shooting is just outrageous. On catch and shoots, he's at 49.1 and on almost 40 shots, if he's on uncontested shots, he's shooting 60.5% from three. So he is, he's money man. And, and he carried probably. I think I need to check this one. I'm pretty sure he carried the biggest load usage wise of any guard that Cal point guard, that caliper he's ever had. And he's been really, really low waist guard, taking care of the ball. So speaking of what you're saying, this is a guy who's a high level. Feel like he has a really advanced sense for the game where it needs to go. He's bolstered a team of Arkansas players who I think they'd be like an NIT team without him because he just has orchestrated those pieces in a way and turned them into a really competitive team that won the SEC tournament. And they're going to be a threat if, if he is a big tournament. I mean, he's going to, he's going to get consideration there in that 5, 6, 7 range for sure.
- [69:01]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [69:02]
Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [69:02]
Rob Mahoney
I was, I was wondering about him from Atlanta's standpoint, you know, like they have the Pelicans pick like this would. This would be a bit of a reach. Maybe it would have to trade down or something like that. But a team that has a lot of potential defensive help, a lot of guys who could switch into spots who can cross match, but also could rely on his Playmaking and the orchestration without having to over index on it like that feels like a really comfortable spot.
- [69:26]
Justin Varior
I think you guys have both hit on two teams that I was thinking of, if only because as Kyle mentioned, he's playing with a lot of athletes around him at Arkansas, Dallas, Atlanta, same sort of thing. If he could be the one source spot defensively that's covered by all these other guys because as we're seeing with like taking a bet on a small guard, you really do need to have elite level trace that trade off of he's not going to play defense. He has to be a one of one like creator type and also shooter. Not only like a good shooter, but a shooter at volume, which it seems like Flemings might be able to do, but AOFF has definitely done because he's leading the country in minutes, he's leading the league in points, he's leading the league in assists. I think this is also a good opportunity to talk about Wagler who probably doesn't have the success or the athleticism, but the measurable is a little bit better despite the fact that he wasn't really much of a recruit coming out of high school. And also just the three point shooting and doing it at volume seems to be already there. And so for me, someone who's looking at this from afar, I'm like, I'm not seeing the athleticism stuff because. Because it's kind of hard to track like where the baseline is for some of these opponents where it's like Northwestern. I'm just like, I don't really know how to rate this when it comes to like NBA level talent. But just like the fluid movement plus the ability to get the shot off, plus the success from three like that seems like an archetype that fits in the NBA right now.
- [70:44]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I mean the shooting is like swoon worthy. And in terms of like the footwork too, he has like NBA ready shooting footwork, the step backs, the sidestep, all of that kind of accessible action. I think it's really important for a player like him especially because it, I mean correct me if I'm wrong, Kyle, it feels like he's going to be more of like a secondary creator type at the next level. That's a, maybe a more realistic expectation than asking him to drive your offense.
- [71:09]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think his craft in terms of like getting into the lane and you know, playing with guys with he. He utilizes that shooting threat and that shooting gravity really well to his advantage and I think he's going to be Able to continue to do that. But I think, think, you know, we were talking about the athleticism. He's just not. He has, he has game in the mid range, but his game around the basket has been pretty labor. We were, we were pointing out this is a 66 guard. He might, he'll probably measure it like six, four and a half or something because I said that. But on the season at the rim, let's see. 137 layup attempts this season. One attempted dunk and he missed it. So I was even going back to high school. This guy does not, not. He does. He can dunk. It's just. He doesn't really find ways to do it in games. Man, he shoots an effortless ball.
- [71:55]
Rob Mahoney
Beautiful.
- [71:56]
Kyle Mann
It's, it's. It's NBA ready. It's so, so easy. His mechanics even. I've even noticed that I get pretty nerdy with the shooting stuff, but I've even noticed that like with the way his elbow is, I think he could adjust his elbow just a little bit and his range is going to get wild. Like he's going to be able to shoot really far away. Kingston Flemings, I was going to point out, really. Did you notice how odd the end of his shot is?
- [72:19]
Rob Mahoney
Like he, it's a little wonky.
- [72:21]
Kyle Mann
I was looking on Getty and his. He has this like odd way that he goes this way. Anyway, Wagler is going to be a big time shooter. I think I've heard Austin Reeves with him. I don't think he's as quick, but his craft is really, really good.
- [72:33]
Justin Varior
Just the enthusiasm Rob had with that beautiful like. Oh, you just like felt it in your soul.
- [72:38]
Rob Mahoney
I mean watch him shoot like this is a guy who you could, you could sit on a bleacher and just watch him shoot like warm up shots for 20 minutes and it would like. That was a very aesthetically pleasing display that I just witnessed.
- [72:50]
Justin Varior
That's art right there.
- [72:51]
Rob Mahoney
It, it really is art. And to say nothing, Kyle, I'm glad you brought up like the, the passing element of that as well and the way he plays off of that shooting because it does feel so natural. Like I, you know, watching him work off the drive where it's not first step oriented. It's all about like can I get the slightest edge and then can I make the lowest resistance move? That's going to lead to a quality shot for somebody. And that's an innate sense that I think is really important and especially for somebody like a, a premier shooter who doesn't have the first step Burst to be able to understand this is what I need to bail out of this possession by throwing a lob, by hitting a kick out, by finding a cutter. Like, his eyes are open when he drives in a way that I think is a really great sign for who he could be as a pro.
- [73:32]
Justin Varior
All right, you want to talk about some other guys, maybe, like, hidden gems, guys to look out for in the tournament, like Kyle, who's jumping out to you beyond the, like, say, top 10 range? I. I sense my friend Yoxel, London Borg back in the mix here, ready to make a comeback here.
- [73:47]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, we were a year early on. Never wrong, just early. Right. With the Axle Y Axel. Yeah. For Michigan. He's a little bit older. He's had a really strange path. You know, I'm sure we talked about this last year. He. He started late, but he's the son of two players, so he's had basketball kind of in his life. I've drawn the comparison to, like, Siakam, how Siakam started late and just kind of went to the moon. He's a little older even than Siakam was. But the thing to watch with him. Michigan hasn't been playing great late.
- [74:14]
Rob Mahoney
They're.
- [74:15]
Kyle Mann
They're. They lost a guy to an ACL injury late in the season. That really hurt them. But defensively, man, watch him guard the ball. He can really, really sit down. One of Wagler's worst games. Well, one of the hardest games of the season for Wagler was when Dusty May put Yaxel on him. And it was pretty wild to watch him. And he checks point guards all the time. He's 6 foot 9. He can really pass the ball. I think the Hornets are an interesting team for Yaxel because I think that his passing and his spacing and stuff would be. Would be interesting for them. I don't know if you guys got to quickly take a look at him or what more you want to say about him.
- [74:51]
Justin Varior
Rob's favorite player from last year.
- [74:53]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I did. I did love him last year. Have I seen him play at all since for Michigan? I have not. I got. I got a cop to that one.
- [75:00]
Kyle Mann
That's fine.
- [75:01]
Justin Varior
I do wonder with the guys that age, because he's what, he's 24 at this point? I guess at a certain point, does that become an advantage because people have knocked them so much. Like, I think about Nick Clifford, like, who's just kind of stepped in and been probably approximate what we expected from him. Like, is it the same sort of thing where he might get drafted lower because of his age, but perhaps could be a little bit more NBA. Like one of the few rookies who are NBA ready.
- [75:27]
Kyle Mann
Yeah, I mean I think he's going to be NBA ready. He's going to scale down also. I mean most of these guys scale down. Unless you're a certain type of player, you're going to, you're not really going to be scaling up or doing, you know, more than what you were doing in college. But with, with Yaxel, I could see him falling late lottery just based on that worry. You know, he didn't have a crazy like vertical leap, but he has great physical tools. I think he's got like a 74 wingspan. He did measure the combine last year, so I think those things will. I've heard people talk about like a PJ Washington in that phylum of player, but he's a way better passer and on ball defender than, than pj. So yeah, the age thing could cause him to fall into that level like you know, mid teen area. And if he has a bad tournament, I could see that happening.
- [76:09]
Rob Mahoney
I mean even still like PJ Washington is a template and anything in the Pascal Siakam greater universe, like that's just a widely useful. Can never take him off the floor kind of forward pass.
- [76:20]
Kyle Mann
Pascal development curve. He's very different athlete from Pascal, but yeah, yeah.
- [76:26]
Justin Varior
Anybody else? We didn't talk about Mikel Brown because we're not sure if he's going to play but he would probably be in the mix of that like guard cloud, you would think like in that like five to what, eight, ten spot.
- [76:39]
Kyle Mann
Yes. He's the guy that we didn't mention who has, you know, size that is I think going to measure out well. He's grown a lot. I got some good measurements from, from a credible source on that one. And no, I mean he's shout out to University of Louisville. He's somebody that could rise late in the process because he's had kind of a bumpy year. The shooting efficiencies weren't exactly what we wanted to the rim stuff was odd. He was, he wasn't the, the, the overwhelming dude that I think they expected him to be. But I get big Keonte, George Anthony Simons vibes from Mikel Brown. You know, very fast dribble shooter, very fast dribble passer. He gets a little bit stronger. You could, he has qualities that could become like a Jordan pool type thing or it could become, you know, somebody like a Keonte who comes on and is like okay, this guy's figuring it out. That could. That could happen with Mike Kill.
- [77:34]
Rob Mahoney
Well, where do you see him in the passing part of that spectrum? Because Anthony Simons is a passer, Keante George is a passer. I would say even they are wildly different. And I've seen. Also seen other, like, more point guardy comps thrown out for him. Like, where do you see his vision and his playmaking as being part of that formula?
- [77:49]
Kyle Mann
He can make some really impressive live dribble. I mean, dribble to pass, dribble to shoot is something in my personal philosophy that's very high. And that's just because that's a timing thing in the NBA, where it's just like, if you're somebody. I even talk to scouts who think that I, like, overdo this, but I just think if you're somebody, waggler is a good example of this. If you're somebody that has to bring your other hand to the ball to control it, number one, much less make the pass and then make the pass. You know, the NBA is an economy of footwork and timing, and I think that, you know, like, literal footsteps, like, so if you're somebody that has to do that, that's a step that the guys can make up. The best pastures in the world can make those seamlessly with one hand. And I think. I think Mikel can make some of those passes. There are some guys in class, like Kingston, at times will have to, like, use his offhand to guide a. A pass, and that's just lost time. So Mikel does a lot of those things, I think. I think he's. He's got a lot of passing upside.
- [78:43]
Justin Varior
All right, before we go, give us, like, the dark horses. Anybody you just want to mark. Maybe late lottery, late first round, or just, like, guys that you love who are going to be in this tournament, like, and give us the sales pitch for watching them as we go through the next couple weeks.
- [78:58]
Kyle Mann
Just me, as. As a. As a dork who really enjoys watching guys who are like, pick and roll operators. I think you guys would really enjoy Bennett Sturtz from Iowa. He's. He's a guy who has just crazy slow mo pace. This is another nerdy shooting thing, guys. Something that really separates great shooters is your ability to repeat and replicate how. How accurate, accurately you stack your body when you go into your shooting motion and how quickly you can do it. Steph is obviously the superhero ver, like, how quickly you can get your. From your ankles up to your shoulders ready to shoot the ball. Bennett has A very high. Like every single time he does it, he repeats it the same way. His shot is very, very quick. He's a really good passer. He just puts people in jail with the way that he plays. So he's fun. They're good role players. Like Thomas Hou for Florida. I really, really like. I think he's a guy that's going to be ready to play immediately in the NBA and just, you know, maybe play, play 10 to 12 minutes, but he's just going to be a box plus minus guy. Does a ton of different things in a really competitive. Yeah, I mean, other than that. Joshua Jefferson for Iowa State. Fun passing, big guy who could, who could really be sort of a fulcrum connector for. For a team. There's, There's a lot. This is a deep class, man. I could write. Bill told me I could. I only had to name one. That's hard because his class is good.
- [80:19]
Justin Varior
I didn't hear Braylon Mullins at all. You're a Mullins guy, though.
- [80:24]
Kyle Mann
No, no, I do like him. I just have. I have Braylon Moore in like the 16ish kind of range. Like, I'm not as committed to lottery as some people, but I really do. That's the thing is, like, there, there. I like a lot of these guys. It's just the number, the number, the number isn't as high, maybe as consensus.
- [80:40]
Rob Mahoney
I have to admit, I thought Bennett Sturts, I thought you were pulling a fast one on us. I thought you were just throwing us a little.
- [80:45]
Justin Varior
No.
- [80:46]
Rob Mahoney
You know, I appreciate your commitment to truthful drafting and not embarrassing your co hosts on their lack of NCAA knowledge because you could have listed any name and I probably would have believed it. But Bennett Sturts, for some reason, strained credulity.
- [81:01]
Justin Varior
Well, we got there. I feel like this has been enlightening. I feel like a lot of people who are listening to this podcast are approaching it from Rob and I's perspective. And so to get that on that level and for Kyle to hold our hands through the process probably is. Is actually easier on the listener than. Than another.
- [81:18]
Kyle Mann
I'm going to say this. I want to mark this. People go watch this. Because this guy, he's. Him not playing, I think is a big deal for the NCAA tournament. And I don't say this because he plays for Kentucky, but I genuinely think Jaden Quaintance is the dark horse thing in this draft. I think that he tore his acl. He came back too fast. He didn't look good. Go watch the Arizona take. I'm I'm like, I feel like the security is going to come get me because the podcast is going to go back. Go back on YouTube, watch him at any at Arizona State. This dude is a generation, generation. He's a very, very special defender. At 17 years old, he was dominant. Go check it out.
- [81:51]
Justin Varior
He's a guy had a catastrophic injury last year, played like four games for Kentucky this year and then hasn't been seen since.
- [81:59]
Kyle Mann
He was not ready to come back. He came back and dominated in the one game that he played and then his knee swelled up and he might have had some other thing going on, but some team if like Oklahoma City, he is just sitting there like this dude's going to fall. Like this is. This is potentially catastrophic if a good team gets this guy because he's, he's good anyway.
- [82:18]
Justin Varior
All right, why don't we wrap it there? We'll be checking in on the draft throughout the next couple months. Kyle's going to be holding our hands and whispering in our ears all these good stuff. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Cameron Dinwini for filling in on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Thursday as per usual. We'll talk to you then.
- [82:39]
Rob Mahoney
Justin. We should also say happy birthday to our usual producer, Victoria Valencia, who rightly is off today.
- [82:46]
Justin Varior
Happy birthday to Victoria to be. See ya.
- [83:02]
Kyle Mann
Shot clocks, Big shots, upsets, Aces TGL Playoffs are here. First Atlanta Drive starts their repeat run against Los Angeles Golf Club. Then Rory's Boston Common golf and Tigers Jupiter Lynx face off in their playoff debuts. Who will advance Keep up its playoffs tune in Tuesday, March 17 at 6:30pm and 9pm only on ESPN and the ESPN app.
- [83:22]
Rob Mahoney
Two Good Co coffee creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and
- [83:26]
Kyle Mann
contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience.
- [83:35]
Rob Mahoney
Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold,
- [83:37]
Kyle Mann
bold or frothy, two Good Coffee Creamers make every sip a good one two Good coffee creamers Real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.