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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. What's poppin real ones. Logan Murdoch here, Raja Bell and Howard Beck and a few great show for you guys. Today we talk about the ramifications of Saturday night's NBA cup game between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the San Antonio Spurs. What does this mean for the Spurs? I mean I know earlier in the season we talked about how the spurs are they a move away or they ready for this stage? Are they a contender? I was very high on the spurs as you guys all know. Wendy for mvp. I that was my pick and maybe we have time to do it. Probably not. But hey, still MVP right now in my heart. But we talked about, you know, his trajectory. We talked about team building as a whole. We got into an old school discussion on what works for team building at the stage that the San Antonio spurs are in and the Oklahoma City Thunder are in. What are the pitfalls of these types of ascensions? What can break them apart? And and you know, most importantly, how do you keep a dynamic going over decades? So it was really, really fun. Roger Bell has a great perspective on this. Howard Beck, as you guys know, legend has covered a lot of these teams, has been around the league for a long time, has been around teams that have been both great with team chemistry, not so great with team chemistry and still won and also not great as an organization as a whole and has done a lot of losing. So really, really fun show. Also got to your mailbag questions which was really good because we talked about Jeremy Lynn, we talked about Chris Paul and his future. All that and more. Realonesmailbaggagemail.com realonesmail baggagemail.com realonesmailbag gmail.com we will answer your questions next Tuesday as well. I think that's it.
- [01:44]
B
The Ringer NBA show is presented by FanDuel. FanDuel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live in your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com RingerMBA to get started. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com Call 1-888-78-9-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by NBA on Prime. Hey Justin here. This Tuesday at 8:30 Eastern it's the Emirates NBA Cup Championship Game on Prime. This year's quest for the cup has delivered incredible moments and jaw dropping highlights and and they've all been building toward this. The final two teams the Emirates NBA Cup Championship Game live from Las Vegas Tuesday night at 8:30 Eastern on Prime. And if you're not a Prime member, that's not a problem. Sign up for a 30 day free trial to get started today. The Emirates NBA Cup Championship game this Tuesday at 8:30 Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details.
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A
Cliff played a theme music Foreign. Real ones. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there Howard Beck and the Cut Cliff on the boards V on the videos. This is real ones. Let's get right to it man. All that I have been thinking about over the weekend since Saturday is this Oklahoma City San Antonio game where Wimby was awesome as I guess expected after coming off of a calf injury and missing like however long he missed the weeks he missed. And to come in off the bench and deliver 22 points, nine rebounds to assist in 21 minutes was crazy. But I think we also got the game of the year here where the San Antonio spurs pretty much I don't know if they laid the blueprint to stopping OKC necessarily because I don't think everybody else has the personnel necessarily to accomplish what they accomplish defendants defenders defensively. But they put the clamps on OKC in a way that no team has done all season long and it was a sight to behold. And I'm going to start with Howard here. We talked earlier in this season. At least the question was out there what is the spurs ceiling this season? What are they going to do? What should they strive to achieve this year with the young players that they have, with the multitude of point guards that they have? Should they make a trade? Should they think about moving off one of those point guards? Right now it seems like this team has a ceiling or at least they think they have a ceiling of trying to go to the NBA Finals. Are the spurs ready to go right now?
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C
Oh boy. Let's just jump right to it.
- [04:40]
A
Let's fucking do it.
- [04:41]
C
Why not dude? I mean Listen, there were 34 win team last season and granted they spent a lot of it without Wemby because of the blood clot issue. They spent half of it without Deer and Fox because they hadn't traded for him yet. And then Deer and Fox got there and got hurt. So we really did not know what to expect from them because it was now going to be presumably Fox and Wemby from day one. Then they have the great fortune to be able to draft Dylan Harper. But what's our, you know, how do you. How's the rookie going to do? What's the Fon Castle's encore going to be after rookie of this of the year, after 34 win season? Given everything, I thought, you know what, let's tap the brakes a little bit preseason. If you had asked me, I'd said, look, if they got to the sixth seed somehow and got a guaranteed playoff spot, that would be an incredible achievement for a really young team that's still on their way up. Yes, Wemby is defensive player of the year material. Yes, he's even potentially MVP material. But I don't know if they'll win enough. Like six seed seemed like a good, reasonable, even optimistic ceiling given how tough the west was. And if they were just in the play in and want to play in 1:1 of the playoff spots through the play in, cool. Awesome. Great spurs, you're right on schedule, man. You're a young team on the rise. It's December 16th and guys like you know me, I am not exactly prone to hyperbole. And this is not just based off of Saturday's game, although a lot of it is certainly based off of Saturday's game. We shouldn't put too much on it. But, but on, on that result and on talent alone and on the impact that Wemby makes and how clear that was in less than 21 minutes of play. I don't want to say contender like they're a team that, that is going to take out the Thunder in a best of seven series in the spring. I'm going to say they're a contender in the sense of Oklahoma still in their own tier. But I'm putting San Antonio next to Denver and Houston. Now they are right there. They have a little less experience than those teams, a lot less experience than Denver, a little less than Houston in terms of especially postseason experience. But shit on talent alone. Wemby, Castle, Fox, Harper, good supporting players. Vassell, Keldon, Johnson. I don't think it's a stretch. I don't think it's crazy. I think they have top four potential in the west and I put them a notch ahead of the Lakers based on a bunch of things, not least of which is that the spurs can play elite defense. And so far the Lakers have not shown us that ability. And it's something that JJ Redick's been harping on a lot recently. So, yeah, that's where I'm at, guys. Preseason thought they might Be a nice playoff team, lower tier playoff team as of right now, stay healthy. I think they're top four team in the west and I think they're among the teams that can really give the Thunder fits in the spring, if not potentially even beat them.
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A
Maybe, I don't know, I don't know necessarily beating them over a, over a seven game stretch. Only because of what you talked about with the experience level, right, Howard, where. And we've talked about this with other teams and Wimby actually even talked about it after the game where he says the thing that they have on us is reps, right? And having attention to the little things and an attention and love for the little things that we need to get to in that level. It was very self aware, not only for himself, but for the team. And. But I was really high on this team, Raja. I was really high on the ceiling of this year's spurs team. Specifically Wimby, right. I thought that he could figure it out to have that next step in his trajectory, especially after last season, because they did have the 34 wins. But I think that has a big asterisk and big caveat on it that Wimby, you know, missed the last stretch of the season, you know, with his injury. One thing that I did love about this team though, is in that the argument for them beating the Thunder, Roger, and I want to get your take on it from watching that game is just the defensive acumen and how they match up with the Thunder, right, Where there were times, and I've watched the Thunder quite a bit this season in person, where the Thunder can kind of just lean on you offensively because they can get easy shots because they have so many smart players who can pass the basketball, who can, who can cut at the right time, who can. They all know their roles around Shea, but when I watched the game on Saturday, they, the Thunder were acting a little bit out of character down the stretch, right? There was a, I think in the last three minutes there was a play where Shay is. I forgot who he was sizing up, but with seven seconds on the shot clock, he basically just settled for a step back three, which is so unlike him, right? And then when he played against Fasale and they put Vassell on him, he's trying to do the same where he's like dribbling a lot and trying to pull his angles and Vazelle was like, nah, I don't want any of that. And then you put the Wimby part of this part of the equation. He had A play Raja where he contests a J Dub shot in the lane, and J Dub just throws it up over Wimby and it gets to Hartenstein, not because he passed it to Hartenstein, but because he just shot it so far that it was an airball. And somehow Wimy turns around and blocks Hartenstein's shot when he gets it just turns around in the paint. It was incredible. But for the defensive acumen, what did you see and how can they match up with Oklahoma City and could. Do you think at this stage that they can beat them or get to the finals based on their experience level?
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D
Let's see.
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A
I would.
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D
I would agree with Howard. Like, I have them in a. In a tier below. Below okc, right? Like, I know they beat him and I'll get to the defense in a second, but I think. I think I would put them okc, Denver, probably San Antonio, and then. And then the Lakers. I would. I would agree with Howard. I would just add to the experience of it all. Mitch Johnson as part of that. Like, he's also not as experienced as his counterparts in that space. So, like, I just think, could they push either one of those teams? Absolutely. I would pick one of those two teams over them in that scenario. Right. So, like, could they get to the conference finals? Like, yeah, depending on the draw, maybe. Like, I think they got a better chance with Denver than they do with OKC personally. But, I mean, what they have defensively is a bunch of good guard wing players. They're a lot like OKC in that regard. Like, they got a bunch of dudes that are relatively versatile. Big, big guards that can. They can switch a lot of stuff and they can stay in front, and you have a human eraser behind you, which, again, you know, when we talked about Wemby and all the statistical things, that you can actually see their tangible stats for him. What you can't see and what isn't tangible is what he does to someone's mindset as an offensive player, thinking that they can beat their man. But what happens when Wemby comes across, that's just a deterrent for drives, right? Like, when you're talking about the Shay. The Shay play like, they. Those dudes live on top of the rim. Sometimes it just becomes that much harder when you have a Wemby in there. Um, yeah, but I don't read too much into that game. Like, so, like, you know, I know that the episode is about it and stuff, but, like, you know, both teams missed a lot of threes. It was a nip and Tuck game. I give. I give San Antonio a ton of credit. Like, I had a schedule for sure, but I don't, like, read too much into that, you know, like, they're San Antonio's good, especially when you got Wemby out there. Darren Fox is playing well. They're a tough team. There are a handful of them in the West. What I really liked what they did was offensively to okc, you know how they really attack those bigs. You know, those bigs that are in drop coverage, like, and they have the guard play to really attack that coming downhill into space. When they weren't putting them in pick and roll. They never let those guys sit. You know, OKC is a great help team. They're always like, you know, just. I mean, basically converging on the ball. They use the big. And they flared, you know, they flared with their big a lot. They just kept the bigs from OKC occupied in a way that allowed their guards and whatnot to just wreak havoc. So I. I like the game plan. I still would take OKC.
- [13:06]
A
I want to stay on, Ms. Johnson really quickly because I thought this was a very. Well, it's been a pivotal moment for him all season, right? Like one. You. You. You have your best player go down really early in the season, and you find a way to write the ship. But going into this game, you. I thought it was a genius move from him to take Wimby off the bench because of just a lot of different factors. Right. You're putting him in a stage like the NBA Cup. Like, whatever we say about it is a stage where everybody is watching. It is a bigger game. It is against an opponent that you kind of get up for, and that's really tough recipe for a return game. So to bring him in off the bench in the way that he did, that take. That took a lot of, like, guts. And I'm sure in San Antonio, he got a. He got a lot of support from the front office. What did you think of his decision to bring him up off the bench?
- [13:56]
D
First of all, I don't know that they publicly said it, but I'm sure they have him on some sort of minute restriction right now coming back. So some of that was probably in an effort to strategically have him available to him at parts of the game where he was going to need him. I'm guessing at that. That's what my eyeballs told me. But let's say that's not the case, hypothetically. Right. We're living in a world where he was fully available for every minute of the game. Well, he had the luxury of, you know, to some, to some degree of doing that because they had been playing well, you know, and so that helps, like when they're playing well and you're strategizing in a one game sample size and you're like, hey, if we come out and play well and be, you know, even is what you would hope, but maybe we're, we're slightly behind as it was. I mean, they had dug a pretty good hole at a, at a point of that game. But like, this is the game plan. We're coming out. I know we keep this thing to 5, 6. Wemby off the bench is an incredibly valuable. He's incredibly valuable anyway. But off the bench, like when, when, when you've got to sit like your star and my starters without Wemby were able to keep us, you know, above water. Like, that's, that's an incredible luxury to have. But I do think the fact that they were playing well coming in without Wemby allowed him to be able to do that. And I would bet that internally they were like, hey, man, here's a, here's the strategic number. We want to have him around, so you figure out how you got to use him, you know, to have him available to you down the stretch. But this is all you get from him.
- [15:24]
A
So, Howard, based on that, like where the spurs are right now, a lot of the talk that we also talked about in the preseason was what do the spurs do? And you know, you know, our thing on real ones, it's all about not. Or pushing the button for a young team. Right. Going to get a star. Right. And they were rumored. I don't know how realistic this was. Just reading the tea leaves about making a run at Giannis. I think that was more of a pipe dream than anything from other people that talk about the game and make the fake trades. I don't think that that was ever realistic to, you know, do that. But what do you. How. What does this start mean specifically? This is why I think this is such a big game, right? Because it was a reminder of what they can be as their whole. What did this early season tell you about what the spurs should do? And ultimately, what do you think the spurs should do during this time? Because it feels like they should kind of just, we got what we got and we should just build what we have. Right now we got Wimy on a rookie deal. Let's, let's just see what we got and go from there. We could tinker as we go. But this is a really deep team and a really good team.
- [16:30]
C
Think about where we were in, like, June for a second, right? Because Logan like to. To put the context back around why all of us doofuses in the media were speculating about a possible spurs deal for Giannis and all this stuff. At that time, there was reasonable thought around the league that maybe the breaking point was coming soon, that Giannis might ask out this summer. Right. That was supposed to be one of the big stories of the summer. It wasn't because Giannis is still trying to find reasons to stay, not reasons to leave, which might, I think, still be the case at this moment. So take two things into consideration. We went into the summer with a lot of the league thinking that Giannis might be available, that the breaking point was coming soon. San Antonio had, at that point, again, had not had a full season with Wemby and Fox together, had not had Dylan Harper yet. All these other things, all these other factors. And on top of it, when you're talking about who can actually make a good deal for Giannis and still have good stuff left to put around him, the spurs were near the top of the list. Lot of extra draft picks, a lot of good young players. They had the means to do it. So it was a reasonable discussion at that time. And I would be the first to say, like, yeah, they should be right out front in this. But now, today, no, like, it's. It's. Again, it's mid December. They're 18 and 7. They're 18 and 7. Despite WEMBY missing 12 of their 25 games. Ridiculous. Real quick. Offensive rating, 7th. Defensive rating, 14th. That's artificially low because of Wemby's absence. I think their net rating is eighth. Those all chart out to be, you know, a top playoff team type numbers. They also, in addition to missing Wemby for 12 games, missed Dylan Harper for 10 and Darren Fox for eight. Saturday's game, that win against the Thunder was the first time they'd had Wemby, Fox, Harper and Castle together. Two more quick ones. With Wemby on the court this season, their offensive rating would be 115. That would actually be a little bit of a drop from where their offensive rating is. Otherwise, that's. That. I think that's an anomaly. But their defensive rating with Wemby on the court this season would be 104. That would be the second best defensive rating in the league, as opposed to the 14th, which they now have. Now, it's dangerous as the analytics guys will Tell you to zone in on one guy's offensive and defensive ratings and draw conclusions across the board. But it's a hint of what they could be against the Thunder alone. Again, small sample size. They were a minus 19 when Wemby was on the bench in that game and a plus 21 with him on the court. A plus 21 in under 21 minutes. They were a point per minute better than their opponent when Wemby was on the court. I don't want to fuck with any of that guys, to your question. I do not want to mess with that. I don't want to break this group up. I'm generally of the belief that veterans win championships and youth takes their lumps in this league. But we just saw in the Thunder in June one of the youngest teams, one of the, I think the youngest team in, like, 50 years to win the championship. We're in a time in this league where I think there's more opportunity even for a younger team because of all the parity. And speaking of experience, Mark Dagno, 40 years old, Mitch Johnson, 39. Granted, Dagno's been in that job a little bit longer, six years or so, and Mitch Johnson just took over. But in terms of just like, age, age, not NBA age, they're, they're, they're neck and neck. So, like, yeah, I mean, all fair the experience stuff, but, like, I would be given Runway time, Giannis at 31, all these guys in their early to mid-20s. I, I, I, I would have a really hard time now making the all in move. And I think if I'm the Spurs, I'm, I'm, I'm pulling myself out of whatever Wemby sweepstakes there are to come.
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A
I think a lot of teams are going to start doing it. I mean, you're starting to read the tea leaves there. Like, it's just, it's where we at, are at as a league right now. And just with the salary cap and a lot of those things. And this version of the league is catered towards building your team from scratch through the draft, through, you know, hitting on ancillary pieces in free agency and then paying your young core. That's what where the league is going right now, because they legislated out a lot of those star moves and trying to get people in free agency. You can't really get them in free agency anymore. And then trading them is just so hard on the future of your team if you go all in on a superstar. So it's going to be tough.
- [21:08]
E
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- [21:41]
B
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- [22:45]
A
Raj, I have a question for you because you are unique to this type of experience. You played against the spurs of old with, with Timmy, with Manu, with Tony, with the guys around them. This seems like we don't know what they're going to be. But this version of the team seems like building from that same kind of blueprint, right? Where you have this generational star in wimby and then you have these stars that could be starters. Otherwise other places, right, these wings that could be have a bigger role. The Aaron Fox could have a bigger role somewhere else, right? Castle theoretically could have a bigger role somewhere else. Same with Dylan Harper. But they seem to be put into these roles for the greater good of a team. Can you compare and contrast those two groups? And yeah, yeah, I'm giving it to you right now. I'm giving you a Home.
- [23:35]
D
I've already answered your question.
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A
No, I can't.
- [23:39]
D
Go ahead, go ahead. Go.
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B
Go ahead.
- [23:41]
A
What do you. What do you see from this team as opposed to that team? And what would be your advice for this group of young guys right now as they're trying to build a Spurs team that is similar, but in a new age, right at this moment?
- [23:59]
D
Yeah, I don't know. Comparing and contrasting them is. Is really difficult, but they're playing a different game than. Than the spurs were playing back then. Let me just say this. I. This is the way I'm going to choose to answer this question. You said the way the league is set up now for teams to be able to draft, pay their young talent, get some pieces around the edges and win championships. The spurs with the original Timmy, Manu, Tony park, they were already. That's what they were doing.
- [24:30]
A
Yeah, Right.
- [24:31]
D
So, like, they were ahead of their time. So the team, I mean, reminds me of that team in that way. Right. Like, those were their guys. They didn't go out. Even when you add Kawhi to the mix, like, those are their guys. They find them in the draft.
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F
They.
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D
They develop them. The chemistry is there. They're raised under the same banner they have. They understand the culture from the time they're pups, you know, so, like that. That's very, very similar. That does take a level of sacrifice. We talk about it all the time.
- [25:01]
A
Right.
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D
It takes a level of maturity, of understanding, you know, that we all might have to take a little bit less, not just financially, but in terms of, you know, maybe overall stardom, in terms of maybe, you know, accolades, if you will, to accommodate each other. Because ultimately the championships are going to be more important for us as a group. You take that for granted because you think, like, duh, everyone's going to have that mindset, but it just doesn't work like that all the time.
- [25:36]
A
Right.
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D
And so I think kind of like OKC in this way. When I look at those guys and I see them and I just see their personalities at interviews and the way they carry themselves, I think they have guys that fit that bill, you know, but, like, that's what Tony, Manu, Timmy were kind of able to do, weirdly, like Kawhi, you know, Kawhi was the one that didn't fit in all the way with that as he grew, you know, as. As a player and as a personality. And then he's proven to kind of be difficult where he's, you know, wherever he's been. But that's what those guys did so, well, right. And then they brought in the right Harrison Barnes of the world, Michael Finley's of the world, Robert Ores of the world, Kurt Thomas's. They just brought in the right vets fill a need, whether that be on the court physically or emotionally, spiritually, in the locker room, like finding those pieces. But really you've developed this from, from scratch, right? You've drafted it, you've, you've built it, you've given it time to kind of figure out who it is in the league and then you win because of it. So they remind me of each other. But the spurs were ahead of their time in that they were doing that in a league that was largely based on winning because you went out and got free agents. They were, they were, you know, that's why we thought they were the best run organization, you know, in the league forever.
- [26:57]
A
Why, why do you think, Raja? Like, we've gotten away from that, right where it. And I think about this, even with the Suns during your era specifically, there were like sons guys, right? You talk about the spurs guys, you talk about the, the, the, the, the, the types of players I always think about when you talk. When you brought up Harrison Barnes, I was over here like, oh yeah, Harrison Barnes has been a spur long before he's even been a spur. Like you, you always see guys around the league that you think, oh, he's eventually going to become a spur. Right, Right. Except Raja, who should have been a spur.
- [27:31]
D
But I digress.
- [27:32]
A
But what is the importance of having those just type of guys right around the league that just fit into your program Where I feel like a lot of times during, during my travels, you just see guys that are, you know, we just want them because we look at the talent. It feels like the spurs look at the totality of a player and be like, oh, we, they can, they can help us. Right? Like, Luke Cornett was a spur, I heard, you know, like, I'm not surprised that they signed him. Right. Like, what is the importance of having an identity and making sure that those guys or those players fit into the identity over a long stretch of time? Because I feel like we get away from that a lot.
- [28:10]
D
Yeah, I mean that. But, but look, it's, it's critical to success in a lot of instances to it is to be able to find, you know, culturally people that align with what you're trying to do. The first order of business though, is for an organization to have an established culture and identity for everybody to kind of understand what this is, what it represents, how we're gonna act. You know, how we want to look outwardly facing the Heat or another team that you think of when you think of like culture, right? And the word Heat, culture, Spurs fit that. Golden State fits that mode. So that was like, weirdly, not as many teams as you think would have a true identity and culture as an organization. But when you do, I guess it's then easier to figure out who fits with your group, right? And then finding those pieces and when you can find that mixed with real talent, you have a, you have a window of opportunity. So, you know, those, those guys typically are, you know, not limelight seeking individuals. Even if they're uber stars. They're. They're guys that kind of like. Now Wemby is unique in that wherever he goes, he's just going to drive whatever you have going on. Like, he's an alien, but, like, he doesn't seem to thirst for that. You know, they have guys, you know, and even in their role, guys aren't mega personalities, distractions. They, they just kind of get it in that way. And it's really important. Logan, I answered it with a, with a lot of words, but it's super important to find, you know, the right combination of talent, but the right combination of people and, and the right mix of people that actually fit into your culture.
- [30:06]
A
It's. It's always. Oh, go ahead, Rob, go ahead.
- [30:09]
C
No, I was just going to say, like, just coming right off of that. Like, I. It's really fun to see the parallels in these two teams when they played on Saturday. And we'll be. Listen, we've got a nice brewing rivalry between these two teams, I think, based on youth and talent and Runway. Sam Presti, who of course put together this Thunder team, is a Spurs disciple, spurs alum. He brought a lot of that there. For better and worse, I will not elaborate, but there's a lot of that same kind of like spurs culture in the Thunder, right? The professionalism, the, the steadiness, the just watching these guys play, like they're just all about the team and about, about doing the right thing, making the right play, right? And it's not across the board, it's not 100% of the time. And you're going to have an outlier sometimes or you're gonna have a bad game sometimes. But they both, I think, have. Have opted as organizations for high character, super professional guys. Guys you never worry about off the court and you even very rarely worry about them doing the right. Maybe make a bonehead play now and then, but they're Going to get high IQ guys and guys who are about the right thing. It was interesting because Tony Parker was at that game on Saturday, and our buddy Mike Finger from the San Antonio Express News caught up to him. And Tony Parker said, quote, the DNA is still there, meaning, like, the Spurs DNA from his time. It's the culture and everything we built for 20 years, but it's kind of a modern way, which is kind of what Logan was. Was alluding to. And I just think, like, that's a really great endorsement from Tony Parker and an acknowledgment of it. And he even said, like, talking about Castle and Harper, he said, quote, they're so fearless. That's how I was. That's who. That's how Manu was. So, like. Like, there's a. There's a through line. Like, these are generations apart, styles different, generationally different. But, like, there is a through line. And I think the spurs, even though Pop has moved on from the bench and RC Buford has moved on from basketball to the business side, like, there's still a presence there. And their values and everything that they've established over the last 25, 30 years still matters. And it infuses, I think, everything that Brian Wright does as GM and that Mitch Johnson now does as coach and that these players exemplify. And that's a really rare thing, right? Like, the spurs and the Heat are the only ones you could probably talk about that have that kind of through line in terms of culture and values going back that far. So it's impressive.
- [32:33]
A
I think that, you know, a lot of. Because, I mean, you guys brought up the warriors and you guys brought up, you know, just other teams that have done this. I. I don't think the warriors have that established culture, at least anymore. I think that was just. That was a moment in time, and it's kind of cratering before our eyes. But I think one of the other things that we see is you have spurts of the culture, right? And I think the warriors are kind of. I compare them a little bit to Roger. Roger's sons, in that you had it for that moment in time, but you couldn't.
- [33:02]
D
Correct.
- [33:03]
A
Rallied for whatever reason, where. Because of egos. Because somebody made a. A trade or something that just kind of poisoned the well. I think when you see teams like the spurs and the Heat, the things that keep them together, is an established figure, right? I mean, it's art. It was Pop for a long time, right? And his DNA is still there, but it's also R.C. buford, right? It's also the. The. The ownership. Peter Holt, the ownership of the. Of the spurs as well, right. In Miami is Pat. It's just it that. That's the identity. That's the ecosystem. That's what it is. And that takes. You know, there's only so many of those people in. In the world and in basketball. But when you do have those people, you got to hold on to them and make them want to stay there and make them want to feel that way. Because one of the things that you could see it, when a team walks into a arena, it's. It's always a difference between either it's a team or it's a family. The latter is the ones that are typically ones that keep success. Because, like, whenever I see the spurs, you see older players that are, like, traveling with the team, you see guys that you like. I see Sean Elliott. Like, I know the spurs are here, right? Like, I see so many different figures. Same when I see the Miami Heat, you see it with the Lakers, but it's a little different because they're just dysfunctional on their own. Right. But Roger, how important was that? Like, when you were in Phoenix, what was the difference between Phoenix during your time and everywhere else? Right, Because I think you were coming from Utah, which was also at its time, when you left Utah to go to Phoenix, it was an established brand, but, like, what was Phoenix like? That was different than every other stop that you had been at that particular moment.
- [34:51]
D
The style of play in Phoenix, for me, was really selfless. It felt selfless, I should say. We had people on our team that wanted more. Like, it was not a secret. It wasn't always, hey, Steve is the mvp and we're all happy to play our roles, and we're going to be like, there were people that didn't always like that narrative. But because we played with such a pace at that time, everyone ate. And because everyone ate, we didn't. We didn't try to take a little bit off of somebody else's plate so we could eat more. For the most part, right? Like, we. We shared it in that way. I think there was a lot done behind the scenes by Mike Laurel. Mike and Laurel d', Antoni, their staff, the Colangelos, when they were there with our families in a way that. That, you know, took what was happening on the court and the success on the court, shared it with our families and incorporated our families into a lot of the things that we did. So it wasn't just about, like, yo, me and Eddie House are cool, or Me and James Jones are really cool. Like, our wives were good together. Like, they did things together, we traveled together. So we had a really tight knit group. We had that in Utah too. We were all young and at about the same point in our careers. But now we're winning when I get to Phoenix, doing it. And believe it or not, man, winning. Winning is important. Like, you talked about getting a. One of few guys that have this kind of cache and ability to drive culture when you're talking about Pat Riley and, and, and, and Pop and whoever else you might have mentioned in that. But that only lasts so long before that message, you know, starts to fall on deaf ears if you can't produce the wins. Do you know what I mean? So, like, you got to get to the wins in a way that buys you, like, it gets you that equity with people where they're like, okay, like, I believe in what you're talking about because we got over the hump and there it is, right? And we weren't able to do that in Phoenix. And that's why you don't capture it the way you want to capture it. The other thing that those teams do pretty well is when they find that group, they ride with that group. So you get some longevity in terms of your career with that organization. And the longer you're with your brothers and your family, like, the better bond you have, the more, the more you're willing to sacrifice for it to try to win championships or what have you. And some of the teams I played on, even Phoenix, like, we moved pieces a lot, you know, and I wound up being moved. It was, it was the right move, but, like, that was kind of the culture is like we were always shuffling and so, like, you know, those teams tend to, you know, have guys for a while, you know, and I think that helps too. But you got to win to be able to do that. So kind of catch 22, right? Or what came first, the chicken or the egg?
- [37:43]
C
This is how, you know, Raj is a really great teammate, by the way. It's been like 15 years or whatever, and he's still not naming names when he says, yeah, some guys wanted a little more. Some guys might not have all been like, happy, go lucky, egalitarian team might have wanted to focus on their stats. And I know exactly one for sure, and probably two I could name off the top of my head, but we're gonna be nice on this podcast.
- [38:06]
D
We're not one of those pods, bro.
- [38:07]
A
I'm not. We're not.
- [38:08]
D
We're not one of those Pods, we ain't in here telling the secrets, though, your clicks.
- [38:12]
A
We're out here trying to. Howard, what's the one thing that you've seen throughout your travels that is always kind of undone?
- [38:22]
B
The.
- [38:23]
A
The camaraderie that is required for these types of runs and these types of, you know, the longevity in these types of runs. What's the one thing that. That undo. Undoes that?
- [38:35]
C
I mean, it's probably not one thing. It is probably in most cases, either misfortune, just injury, or. Yeah, somebody gets a little bit antsy about their numbers or their contract. And it happens, right? Like, obviously, famously. You know, Shaq and Kobe, who I covered for seven years, like, they stayed together long enough to win three championships and make four finals in their last five years together, but it always felt like it was on the verge of breaking apart. And there was always rumors of, they're going to trade Kobe for tmac. They're going to trade Kobe for. At one point, it was Sean. Sean Marion and Jason Kidd. Like, could you have imagined that your career is a little different, Raja, if that one happened? And, yeah, there was always, like, that potential breaking point. I feel like today's NBA is a little different than that. Like, guys do move around a lot. They move around more. Stars move around more than they ever have. But I feel like it's often like the player versus the organization for some. You know, for some reason, as opposed to like, player versus player. I. I'm trying to think of, like, the last time we saw a guy say, I gotta move on, because I don't. Probably Kyrie. When Kyrie left Cleveland and ended up being traded to Boston, that's the last one I can remember. And I may be forgetting one in between, but that's the last time I remember a guy who moved on for reasons that I would loosely throw into the category of ego. Right? Like, yeah, I want a championship next to this guy. Yeah. We've been to three straight finals. I'm going to skip out on the fourth one because I need to be somewhere else. I just. I don't want to be in this guy's shadow anymore. And he gets traded and he misses that fourth run, and maybe. Maybe that denies them the chance to win another championship, for all we know. And it doesn't work out well in Boston, and it doesn't work out well in Brooklyn, and it finally works out well for him in Dallas. But, like, not a lot's gone well for Kyrie since that move. I don't know if that should be considered a cautionary tale or not. But I do think like it for young, supremely talented players, as Kyrie is, as obviously Kobe was, as a lot of guys are. When you're in the early stages of your career, sometimes the individual stuff matters more than the team success, and that can get in the way. But then you, you can also just lose, like role guys. And especially in today's NBA, this is what we see now, right? Why do we have parity? Because the system's super tight and if you are not one of the two stars, those guys are going to get their maxes regardless. But if you're the, like the fourth starter or the sixth man or like the super important eighth guy, and I mean this legitimately, like, you know, the eighth rotation guy. And on this team you're just the eighth rotation guy in the rotation making 3, 4 million. But somebody else is like, we think you could be a starter for us and we're giving you 10. That breaks up teams too, because all the pieces matter. To quote the Wire and the title of a book about that show by.
- [41:32]
A
My buddy Jonathan Abrams, that's what, that's what all that was. I don't know how I got there.
- [41:38]
C
It just kind of came. It just popped.
- [41:39]
A
No, it was funny, though. That's the thing that we're going to start seeing. We're gonna. It is a lot of pieces. I. One of the things when you were talking, the image that I got in my head was one of Rick Mahorn when, you know, he's at the parade of. I think it was the second straight Pistons win. That would have been 89, I believe, one of those championships, right. And then there's an expansion draft happening as the, the parade is going on. And I believe he went to the Charlotte Hornets. I could be wrong, but it was an expansion draft and he got drafted by that team and there was a sadness that like weeped over everybody. Right? I think we're going to start seeing that and even more in these, these, this new NBA where you talk about the 8th and 9th guy specifically, we're probably going to see it on the Thunder at a point in time where the, the all important guy maybe is Casen Wallace or it's, it's Wiggins or it's one of those guys. And there's going to be that heartbreak from those, that eighth or ninth guy that you just can't afford. And that's going to be the consequence of all of this, right? When we talk about the culture and we talk about the, the continuity of roster building Shout out to Kurt. And you continue to see that, you're going to also see that heartbreak because that's going to be the other side of this, right? When you are building a family like atmosphere, because you do be continue the family aspect, but it's also a business. That's going to be the hard thing, right, Raza? When you start to see these moments of, you know, you see the bus leaving and you can't go with it, even though, like, that you probably want this thing to last forever, right? And that's going to be the hard part.
- [43:24]
D
Yeah, that's always bittersweet, man. Like, it's. It's always tough when you're losing somebody that's really close to the family, right? Like, well, I use my son, Dia, right? Like it's time for him to go. Like, he's done enough. Like he's put himself in position. We are heartbroken that he's leaving, but we're happy as hell for him because it's time to go, right? And that's what you get for the one of those Kayson Wallaces or guys like that. And I think it becomes easier a little bit, Logan, when you know that they're going on to something bigger and better. Like, they deserve their opportunity for that payday. Case and Wallace, right? Like, you guys can't afford them. That necessarily integral to what you did? Family like no other, but, like, it's their time, so it's always going to hurt. But I think in most professional leagues, guys are happy as hell for those dudes, man, because, you know, we're not counting each other's bread. But at the same time, you know, you know what the roster makeup is and the salary cap and how it's structured and who's getting what. And when those guys get their bite at the apple, it's just. It still hurts, but if you can understand what I'm saying, like, it hurts. It's bittersweet because you're happy as shit for those dudes, you know, to go ahead and get their bite. But you gonna miss them for sure.
- [44:41]
C
The Nuggets is the one that I finally just remembered, right? Bruce Brown and Jeff Green were the sixth and seventh men, and they both got paid to go elsewhere. And the Nuggets couldn't really do anything about it because of cap rules and everything else. I'm sure the Nuggets were all happy for those guys and now Bruce Brown's back with them. But, like, that's the kind of thing, right? Like, oh, they didn't lose Jokic or Murray or Gordon or Porter Jr. Or whatever, but they lost a couple of really important, like, glue guys and who were part of their depth. So you have that version, you know. You know, Kawhi leaving Toronto is like the anomaly of all anomalies, right? You're the finals mvp and you're just like, yeah, but I don't want to be in Toronto. I want to be in la. And he leaves, right? The Lakers win a championship the next year, and they voluntarily broke it up and kept LeBron at AD, but basically got rid of everybody else who was part of that championship. And like 20, 21, the Bucks, you know, Chris Middleton, Drew Holiday, Brook Lopez, all start getting old. They, you know, finally move on from Middleton because he's just. He's just not the same player anymore. They move on from Jrue Holiday, maybe prematurely, to get Dame, right? So that's an organizational one, right? So sometimes it's the organization, sometimes it's the players, and it's not always the superstars, and it's not always just ego or contract. It's just things just change quickly nowadays in the. In this league. And that's why we don't get anybody repeating.
- [45:57]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, man, it's. It's a. When this. When you're playing in this league. Just for all the things that we talked about. Let's take a quick break. Let's go to the mailbag. And we are back, ladies and gentlemen. We have our buddy, our producer, our ace, Cliff Augustine is in the building. What's good, buddy?
- [46:20]
F
What's up with y', all, man? You know, it's a cold winter out here, Howard. I know you feel my pain, you know, just trying to maintain and go through it. You know what I mean?
- [46:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah, it's cold. It's cold. It's definitely cold everywhere.
- [46:32]
C
Meanwhile, Cliff and I are in the T shirts and the two guys in like, the frickin 75 degrees are like in frickin hoodies.
- [46:38]
A
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. It's a high of 58 degrees in the Bay Area, so relax.
- [46:44]
D
I'm going to swing some laps when this is over. So long.
- [46:46]
F
Oh, man. As the great rapper once, as the great rapper Fury once said, it's a cold winter. Y' all better bundle up. Let me get to the question here. This is from Matt. Whoo. Matt from Virginia. What up, real ones shout out to you all. You too, Cliff. As an Asian American, Jeremy Lynn was a huge inspiration to me when he announced his retirement back in August, I was rewatching the highlights from his first start, second game of Lynn sanity against the Jazz, and I had to do a double take. I realized my man Raja is guarding Lynn at first after jump ball, but then Raja isn't the primary defender after. After that, pour one out for Devin Harris and Earl Watson. Raja, since Jalen literally hadn't started before but had a really good game right before versus the Nets. What was the scout on him right after the breakout game? What was going through your mind during that game and what do you remember from that game and the ensuing weeks of Linsanity and to Howard and Logan? I think Howard was with the New York Times. Well, I know Logan is from the Bay area where Jeremy Lin is from. Any fun stories or memories about Jeremy Lin? Deep cuts are welcome. Love the pod and happy holidays to y'. All.
- [47:50]
D
Matt. Matt. Well done, Matt.
- [47:53]
A
Good stuff.
- [47:54]
D
Yeah, yeah, real good. I won't take up a lot of time because I. But I do remember it. I remember the scout was. I don't remember what the scout was in terms of what he does and what he doesn't do because, I mean, quite frankly, none of. There wasn't enough tape on it, so no one could really dig into, like, tendencies or anything like that. But I remember he was a huge topic of conversation. He had already kind of splashed a little bit, and, you know, NBA players are wired not to believe it until it happens to them. So suffice to say, I don't think any of us really believed it. And I don't remember what he put up that night, but. But he lit us up. And nobody, me included, if I ever switched on him, was really able to do much with that. The. The. The rest of Linsanity. I. I mean, it was one of the wildest rides, I think, of my career, um, watching someone else just go on a tear. It was a crazy time. Like, he was virtually unstoppable. How long did that last?
- [49:02]
C
Like, three weeks?
- [49:03]
A
Like, three weeks? Yeah.
- [49:04]
D
I mean, but he was virtually unstoppable through three weeks of basketball.
- [49:08]
A
Right?
- [49:08]
D
Like, it was pretty insane. I mean, we were watching it, and people just couldn't believe what was happening. But on that night, I do remember going there. I remember. I remember to scout that morning making people aware of Jeremy Lynn not having a whole lot to say about what he did or where he wanted to be. And I remember a little discourse on the. You know, on the bus and shit like that. People were like, man, ain't no fucking way, bro. That's not. Nope, not happening. And it happened.
- [49:38]
C
Now I'm gonna have to, like, contain myself here because I could talk about this one a long time. Yeah, I was covering the Knicks for the New York Times when Linsanity happened. Nobody saw this coming. Mike d' Antoni didn't see this coming. Jeremy Lynn didn't see this coming. None of us saw this coming. The first thing I remember was that we were. It was like, right before. Like a trip after the holidays. We're sitting at the. In the press room up in Westchester at the Knicks training center, and there's a press release sitting on the table where they often put these things, because back in the day, we just printed out a lot of paper, killed a lot of trees, and there was a stack of press releases about, like, Nick signed Jeremy Lynn. Well, Jeremy had been cut by the warriors, cut by the Rockets, and it was like. Oh, yeah, the Harvard kid, right? Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. One of the only Asian Americans ever in the NBA, but, you know. Yeah. Around for a cup of coffee and. And that's. They signed him to basically be a backup to, like, Mike Bibby, who was like a 72 years old at the time, and Tony Douglas, who was not a point guard. And like, they were just. They were just down bodies, and they just needed, like, they just needed somebody healthy. So it was just an emergency measure. That was it. And they. We. That trip then started in the Bay Area, so now we fly to the Bay Area. And Jeremy Lynn, because he lives there and was a free agent at the time, just joined the team there. And so it was this nice thing because it was like his first game was going to be against the warriors in his home area and all this stuff. So it's like a lot of that. But, like, dude, I mean, nobody sees any of this coming. And the night that he breaks out against the Nets, we're just, like, looking at each other. Like, the best stories. I come at this, obviously, from this perspective as a journalist and someone who, I hate to say storyteller, it sounds so pretentious, but the best stories are the ones you can't see coming. Like, it's great that LeBron James is drafted number one with all the hype in the world, and actually turns into one of the greatest basketball players of all time.
- [51:23]
B
Cool.
- [51:24]
C
Awesome. Many, many highlights along the way. But we could not see Giannis coming and we could not see Steph Curry coming, Right? Like, in a way, yes, but in a lot of ways, no, with Steph, guys who were not the number one overall pick or a top three pick, and then something like this. A guy who's like, comes out of Harvard, been waived multiple times. Nobody even knows if he's gonna have an NBA career at all. He smokes the Nets and Darren Williams, he smokes Raja Bell's Utah Jazz, by the way, 28 and 8 were the numbers you were looking for there. Raja. He also had eight turnover. He also had eight turnovers that night. But you probably caused at least one of those. So I'll take. And then it. But the fact is it just kept going, right? Then he. He drops 23 and 10 on the Wizards in Washington and a huge Asian fan base there too. So, like, that. That place was rooting hard for him. Then he drops 38 on the Lakers with Kobe at the Garden. And it just keeps going that he has that game winner in Toronto when he had 27 and 11 assists.
- [52:24]
A
That was awesome. I mean, he had the game winner, right?
- [52:27]
D
Yeah, it was crazy.
- [52:28]
C
And that was the thing, like every time you thought, like, wow, that was amazing, we'll never see that again. Oh, here's another one. And here's another one. And then eventually, like, his knee got hurt and then the heat, like LeBron and Dwight basically decided, like, this kid's not doing this to us. So they went all out to just like hound the crap out of him. But that was also when, like, he had a torn meniscus. I think at that time that had not been publicized. And so, like, the knee injuries started to slow him down after about three to four weeks of insanity. But it was, it was awesome. It's one of the most enjoyable stories, moments. And by moments, in this case, I mean like a three week moment. One of the most enjoyable things I've ever covered. It was a blast. I want to throw one other quick little detail, Logan, if you can, indulge. So several years later, Kenny Atkinson's hired to coach the Nets. His first head coaching job. Kenny had been Jeremy Lynn's, like, workout guy on Mike d' Antoni staff. So Jeremy was shouting him out all the time. And now they're reunited. The Nets signed Jeremy to be with Kenny again. And I want to do a feature story about it. This is when I was at Bleacher Report. I go to Kenny's office. He pulls out of his desk this little piece of paper, like this big. It was like torn off of an envelope. And it was four little plays with the names on them. And Jeremy had written them down, like early on in this run or maybe before the run even began, and he'd hand it to Kenny and said, listen, could you just. These are the ones I'm comfortable with, basically. And Kenny had hung onto it all those years, and so he showed it to me. I took a photo of it. We included it with the story. I talked to Jeremy about it. He didn't know that Kenny still had it. It was awesome. So it was just like this little amazing thing. Like, that's, again, the people of the game matter more than anything, right? And that's like the bond like that between coach and player. A coach, you know, assistant coach, who was just on his way up at that time in Kenny Atkinson, a player who everybody had slept on and was just trying to break his way. Like, the bond between them was really cool, too. So, anyway, thank you for letting me indulge that last little bit. Logan, I will stop.
- [54:30]
A
It's fine. You're a great storyteller, sir. Speak. No, it's funny that you. That they asked about Jeremy and asked about me in, like, the Bay Area, because I, I, it made me think about the story I actually did for the ringer, like, a long time ago during the pandemic that I completely forgot about where I actually interviewed him when he was back in the G League in 2021. Like, I think one of his last stops before his career ended. And I remember during the time we're just trying to figure out a story for me to write, and if, you know, you know, it's really hard to get a byline out up at the ringer for a number of reasons, but also to get, like, the perfect angle. And at the time, I was doing Q&As, and I hit Ray Ritter, and I'm like, yo, bro, let me. You got Jeremy and the G Lee. Let me talk to him. You know, Raymond Renner, just like, oh, yeah, I got you here. You know, and I call and I call Jeremy or he calls me one of the two. And it was one of the most insightful conversations that I've ever had with an NBA basketball player. And I went into it very nervous because I really wanted to do good on this, this piece. And I asked him just like, how do you feel now at this stage of your career about Linsanity and what his relationship was with Linsanity. And he talked about a lot of things, but he talked about just what that meant for him. But it got him into the league, but it also, for a player like that, where he stood when he first got to the Knicks in the way that you talk about Howard, where he talks about, you know, he was a Superstar overnight in a way that most guys who are in his position, they don't get to the stratosphere of the zeitgeist. Within three weeks, he was sleeping on Landry Fields's couch. And now he's, like, on Broadway and he's like this superstar.
- [56:22]
D
But.
- [56:22]
A
But he talked about what that did for him. And I want to read a quote from you from this. He talks about at the time, you're like, with all this success, I thought it would be everything I ever needed. You realize it's not because you set new goals and ultimately your heart is still empty. That success isn't going to make you feel like you'll need anything forever. It's not going to fulfill you. So there's an emptiness. Then you feel like from the emptiness, there comes a point where you're just scared and everybody's changing around you. People. People are changing, and people want stuff from you. You're dealing with the ugly side and the greedy and the selfish side of human nature, and you're scared. Then you go from scared to being jaded. And then you go from jaded to acting out and just being rebellious and then going from rebellion to you come to a place like, I've rebelled, I've rebelled, I've rebelled. And then you slowly start to get humbled. And he talked about how when, you know, he went to the Lakers and he went to all these places, he was still dealing with the character of Jeremy Lynn as opposed to Jeremy Lynn the person. And he didn't get humbled until Atlanta and Brooklyn. It was a very insightful conversation. And I came away with like, oh, this guy is like, on the other side of it. And it was one of the best interviews that I've ever felt like I've been a part of because of just the subject in general. And it felt like he was ready to speak. And so that's the only time I've ever talked to Jeremy Lynn. I'm sure he doesn't even recognize me or would even know who I am. But, like, he was very insightful on not only, like, what Lynn sanity was as an idea and as a concept, but how it affects you as a human to be that. So that was cool. That's my Jeremy Lynn story. I think we have time for maybe one more question, and then I think we got to get about it here. But that's my Jeremy Lynn story.
- [58:02]
F
All right, this is the last question. And this is from Kamel Brown, now that Chris Paul has stated he would be willing to play somewhere other than The west coast, do you think there for his services? Kamel Brown.
- [58:17]
B
Go ahead.
- [58:18]
A
Go ahead, Roger, go ahead.
- [58:19]
D
I. I don't know. Go ahead. I'm going to defer.
- [58:22]
A
It's tough. I think it's really tough for. Cause this is obviously his last year. And what Chris Paul brings to a team at this stage is probably what a team that's winning a championship doesn't, or going to strive to win a championship doesn't really need. And I'm not talking about the leadership and the stories and things like that, talking about all the other stuff. It.
- [58:43]
B
Right.
- [58:43]
A
Like at this stage of the season, you don't want somebody like doing the stuff that pissed all the Clippers off. And I say this as, as someone who thought he was put in a position where it was really unfair. And I think that he should still be a Clipper right now if that was an organization that valued its, you know, pillars of an organization. That being said, I think for another team right now, I don't think that they need that mid season because it's going to be a reset and you're going to bring Chris Paul into the fold and he's going to be like, wait, I don't, I don't like that. But I'm like, bro, it's December. Like, we're about. We're already, we're already have our habits. We already have what we're going to do. We're going to do. It's going to be really hard to have like four months of Chris Paul. And I think that could be more disrupt, disruptive than actually helping a team at this stage of where he's at right now.
- [59:37]
C
Here's.
- [59:38]
D
Go ahead.
- [59:39]
A
I'm sorry, did I go?
- [59:42]
C
Go, Howard.
- [59:43]
D
I'll go. Well, look, look, here's the deal. If you're bad, why do you want Chris Paul?
- [59:47]
A
Right.
- [59:47]
D
Like, you're not bringing it.
- [59:48]
B
Right.
- [59:50]
D
If you're, if you're clearly, clearly like formed as a team and you don't have that point guard hole. Why. Why would you want Chris Paul? There is one team that I could think of and mind you don't know, his relationship with the team or his relationship with the stars on that team. Where I could make a case for like the tires on Chris Paul.
- [60:08]
A
Lakers.
- [60:09]
D
Nope.
- [60:10]
A
Who?
- [60:12]
D
They're in the Western Conference. They've been playing without a point guard, basically. Oh, point guard, yeah.
- [60:21]
A
But I don't know.
- [60:21]
D
I'm not advocating for it. I'm not advocating for it. And like I said, I don't have any background on him. And Chris, I mean, him and KD or him and the Rockets organization. And this would only be under the assumption that what just happened in the, in the, with the Clippers has kind of humbled him a little bit, probably, and, and, you know, allowed him to take that step that we talk about all the time, which is understanding that, that he's mortal and that this is coming to a close really quickly. And in that world, you might get the best version of the leadership, organizational skills on the court of Chris Paul, and it would then be worth it.
- [61:04]
A
My question to you on that, though, really quickly, though, before we go to Howard. My question to you on that is, how does he jive with Ma Udoka? Because they seem like two guys that are strong minded. And if like, say Ma is doing a film session and Chris Paul's like.
- [61:17]
D
But, but no, that's what I said. This would only be. This would only be in a world where that Chris Paul can put himself away for the next six or seven months.
- [61:29]
A
Did you see how he walked his ass around the NBA cup like he was a deity? I don't think he's. I don't think he's humb. I don't think that he's out here saying, like, I'm about to just. He's Chris Paul. So, like, I'm not saying that that's not something. But he doesn't.
- [61:44]
D
Well, I'll tell you like this. They're. They're in a spot where they're. You're not winning. I don't think you're winning a championship. I love them. Yeah, yeah, you're not. So, like, that's why I'm saying, like, you know, I could see a team like that maybe having to have the conversation, right? Because you are. You could look at your roster and say, okay, we're a piece away. That, that kind of piece away. My bad. Go ahead, Howard.
- [62:09]
C
If he wants, If Chris Paul wants the, like, you know, warm farewell tour and eventually the warm Farewell after Game 82 or the playoffs or whatever that he was hoping for this year with the Clippers, then he does have to be a slightly more contained version of himself where, yes, it's all the best stuff. The wisdom, smart as hell, and all the veteran stuff that goes with it, all the leadership, everything else. And yeah, you can still be a stern voice in the locker room. You just can't be, like, wearing everybody's asses out. So if there was ever a time for him to recalibrate, now would be it, because this is it. If you like Otherwise his last memory of the NBA is having the Clippers banish him. Like that's kind of fucked up. And I don't he doesn't want that. No, nobody, nobody wants that. The complication here. So to, to Kamel's question about the market, the there's a bunch of complications here. The first one is that the Clippers can't just waive him. There are a bunch of like complicated rules about the aprons and fucking roster minimums and all this stuff. They can't just wave him, they need to trade him. So now they need to trade him to someone like Brooklyn where they can just absorb him and cut him. But you're going to have to like give them an inducement. Now you got to give up like second round picks or something to do this because why else is Brooklyn or whoever doing you the favorite? So what you need is a trade partner that will acquire him and probably waive him so that he can go to one of the teams that he actually wants to go to. I got a list of like nine potentially and you guys can like Raj is going to do is like classic Raja wrinkle face thing. Logan's just going to scoff. But Houston was one of them and Logan like point taken. About Ima did you see me going off post game about the refs last night? Holy crap, that's good. I can't wait to see what that fine is he, he, he went off. I, I, I get it. But yes, I agree with Raja. They could use a point guard and complications with all these teams. By the way, I don't know who's got roster spots that they can actually use or what other apron they got to deal with in a vacuum though like would he make sense potentially for Denver that's been banged up and could use maybe another guard off the bench. Sure. The Lakers where his buddy LeBron could, could advocate for him maybe back to the Spurs. Maybe there's a reason why, there's a.
- [64:29]
A
Reason why he's not on the spurs right now.
- [64:32]
C
But is, but is that I think, I think he wanted to go back to LA too. Logan. So I don't know Minnesota, I don't know if they need yet another old guy because they already got an old guy with Mike Conley. But like they do need point guard help back to Phoenix. Maybe they're not going anywhere but they're off to a good start and overachieving and he's got ties there. Devin Booker, Logan back to the warriors. Or do they want, is that, is that, that's just done.
- [64:59]
A
That's, that's, that's done. There's a reason why he didn't get resigned back with the Warriors.
- [65:03]
C
That's what I figure. Dallas is a stop gap until Kyrie presumably comes back. Maybe like again, what, what have we.
- [65:12]
A
Okay, I want to say, so I want to say something really quickly, Howard, because I feel like you're making the same excuse for Chris Paul for like maybe he can help. We're at, we're, we're, we're working under the assumption that he has been like a really good piece this season. He has not been very good. If this would have been like Chris Paul of maybe two years ago, sure could definitely help these teams.
- [65:32]
C
No one's, no one's saying he's there to like take over your starting point guard play. 36 minutes a game. It's like can he be of value to a team as a short minutes reserve and guy who has seen it all, done it all, but he couldn't.
- [65:45]
A
Even do that on a team that's won like five games before they banished him. Which I will say like that was fucked up.
- [65:52]
C
Yeah. And there's more obviously.
- [65:54]
F
Dude.
- [65:55]
C
The wheels are coming off like everything's, the bumpers are coming off. The suspension's like cracked like the Clippers.
- [66:01]
A
Hey, I just got back from la. I cannot wait to go back for All Star because that's going to be hilarious. It's going to be hilarious to see how to super comfortable. Try to put, put makeup on a pig and say, oh, everything's going great. It's great.
- [66:14]
C
No, it's the Clippers Arena.
- [66:16]
A
Don't be so sad.
- [66:18]
C
I'm just like. And the other thing I thought about too, Orlando would have been the other team by the way, on, on the list here. A team that's like basically never had a point guard.
- [66:29]
A
Yeah.
- [66:29]
C
At least for a very long time. I also just think that like some of the best moments of Chris Paul's career, his best seasons have been when he like got the Thunder to overachieve in his, in his time there. Got the Suns to like, like he, he's really great at molding a young team. So part of me wants to say like, maybe it should be a middle tier or a lower tier team. But like it's his last run. He probably wants to be on a team that's relevant on some level. So I was focused mostly on those. But like I think there's at least a plausible case for any of these.
- [66:58]
D
You're, you're pay.
- [66:59]
C
Excuse me, paying him the minimum, you're playing in minimum minutes as well. I, I, I have to believe it's not over for him yet. And, and I hope it's not. That would be a really sad, sad way to go out.
- [67:10]
A
I think there's a bigger chance than not that it's over, but we'll see that it's over. I mean, I'm not saying, I'm not saying that somebody could say, you know, say, hey, we want him on our team, but I just think that it's more likely than not that he's probably, it's, it's, it's gonna be, it'll be a tough sale. Like, all the names that you're telling me is like, it's just a really, really tough sell because you even said stop gap for Dallas. Like, he's not good enough to be a stopgap at this point in his career right now. Until Kyrie gets back. There's just so many. Every time you say it, I'm like, oh, oh, oh. I can find a plausible excuse of why, especially this late in the season and the trade and all those things. The Clippers just, Clippers were so scandalous. I think that's just the bigger thing here. Like, I, I, I can't believe that happened. It's so, just cruel.
- [67:56]
D
Let me, let me just say this. Like, he's, he's clearly not the player that he was, you know, even when he was, when he had that Suns team with Devin Booker and they were doing their thing, like, he's not that guy. I tend to agree with Howard in terms of physically, he's like, there's something that he can give you, right? Here's what I'd say to what you're saying, Logan, when you put, and I've said this before, you put someone like Chris Paul and his expectations into a shit show and pure dysfunction, you're going to get the worst version of him because he's not like, it's, that's what you're gonna get. That doesn't mean that if you put him in something that's functional and could use what he's talking about, he wouldn't then be functional again. Do you know what I mean? If that makes sense. Like, we're just assuming that if you put him in a solid situation, he's the dysfunction. I don't really believe that I've been that guy. We're like, hey, bro, I'm not dysfunctional. This shit is crazy. And I just want to give him the benefit of the doubt with that you know what I mean? But last thing I would say to that is, not only would they need a little bit of a void in terms of the point guard position, why I lobbied for Houston, or a team like Houston would be a little bit of a void in terms of voice on the court.
- [69:18]
A
So, like, that's fair.
- [69:20]
D
Yeah, Udoka is an issue. There's no voice out there, really. So, like, he can absorb some of the responsibility that he's used to absorbing. You know, that. That's just.
- [69:29]
A
He could be iguodala on the 22 championship warriors or like that. Right. Like, basically, he's not maybe playing as much, but he's like, yo, Reed shepherd, come here. I gotta, I gotta. I gotta tell you this. Okay. Yeah, you can talk me into that. Yeah, that's a good value.
- [69:42]
C
There's value there also, by the way. Like, usually you want your best players to be your leaders, but we've seen over and over, like, Kevin Durant doesn't necessarily want to take on that kind of role, that his personality is not geared that direction. I don't know how much Shangoon wants to do that, you know, Is it falling?
- [69:57]
A
Well, the Rockets are Ma's team, though. Rockets in all ways are Ma's for sure.
- [70:02]
C
But I mean, Raja, back me up. Unless you.
- [70:04]
D
Somebody on the court has to do it.
- [70:06]
A
Yeah, sure. Absolutely.
- [70:07]
C
Yeah. And a man is too young, like, who else is gonna do that?
- [70:12]
A
And I'm curious to see if a man, like, ever gets that person, gets that in him. Right? Like, I've been around a minute a couple of times. Great kid. But also was like, you want him to have like some just oomph, like, you know what I mean? Like, I, I don't think he's, he's not there yet. I wonder when or if he's going to be that.
- [70:29]
D
Listen, you take, take, take this for whatever it's worth. There aren't a lot of people that want to do that.
- [70:34]
A
Yeah.
- [70:35]
D
Good, bad or indifferent, like, it takes a certain personality type to be, to be that guy. Right. Like, it doesn't just come around all the time. So, you know, it's particularly rare in guys that can really, really hoop, you know, like, that want to be the, the. The. The actual emotional and verbal leader out there. Like, you know, you had the KGS of the world that did that. MJ's not especially rare. I shouldn't have said that. But, like, it, it isn't always the case. And a lot of those guys have a sidekick that does that for them.
- [71:06]
A
Yeah, that's fair. You talked me into it, man. Chris Paul to the, to the Rockets. Also a very another, yet another example of Raja Bell saying he doesn't know about a subject and then just dropping 50 and like 25. I just want, I'm just saying, let's just it, you know, the pattern is there. That has been another edition of Real ones. Thank you guys. Thanks, everybody. From the mailbag, thanks to Victoria. Thanks to cliff realm bag gmail.com realmbag gmail.com real1smailbag gmail.com we do this every Tuesday. At least we try to. We will see me and Raja on me and Raja on Friday, I believe. And then. Okay, bro, stop doing this. Am I just finding this out on the thing? All right, man, whatever, bro. We're gonna lock in and then we're gon to see somebody. The real Ones will be back on Friday and I will be here. So tap in all the shits. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rghelp.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.com in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamb ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.