← The Ringer NBA Show
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- [00:00]
Justin Varior
Foreign.
- [00:15]
Rob Mahoney
Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varior. And joining me, the two biggest underwear thieves west of the Mississippi. Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann. Guys, where is Nikola Jokic's boxers?
- [00:30]
Justin Varior
Who did it? You weren't supposed to bring this up. I thought we had a cone of silence around this particular issue, did we not?
- [00:37]
Rob Mahoney
I mean. Well, the good thing is you ended up finding them. If you read the. The leads of the Athletic story, it really was like a moment of panic and in which he like, accused apparently some. Someone of actually thiefing his. His boxers. Which kind of, who's to say? Didn't get that detail, but yeah, he just ended up finding them. So crisis averted.
- [00:58]
Justin Varior
Crisis averted. Shout out to Jason Quick of the Athletic and really sports writers everywhere, because as soon as you hear that Nicole Jokic has lost his underwear, it's like, how do I make this elite? How do I tie this into the encore embarrassment that has been the Nuggets versus the Wolves? And he threaded the needle, I gotta say.
- [01:15]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, was this an overeager, like, laundry person? But also you're in the situation for where. Where you're yic. Where you can't entirely rule it out because, you know, people. People be crazy about these NBA stars. You know, it's like, what do they want it to. What. What level of memorabilia is too low for somebody who's interested in Nicola Jokic? You know, so it'd be easy to accuse him of being paranoid and crazy. But you can't totally rule it out when you're a former mvp, right? I don't know.
- [01:44]
Justin Varior
So you're saying there might literally be jock sniffers out there?
- [01:47]
J. Kyle Mann
No, I'm just saying, you know, if. Well, yeah, there. We've all. We've all been on the Internet, you know, we've all learned that even on Twitter these days, one errant Cl can take you down a main street that you don't want to be a part of. So I don't know if I've been on.
- [02:00]
Rob Mahoney
On that Internet.
- [02:02]
Justin Varior
Our algorithms are very different, Kyle.
- [02:06]
J. Kyle Mann
You never. You never like, click on a random profile that doesn't even appear, like, dubious or. Or risque? You've never had that happen, Bro, I'm down.
- [02:15]
Rob Mahoney
I'm. I'm darn down some dark holes. Let me just say that I just haven't been. I've been into the jock sniffing. Qanon.
- [02:23]
J. Kyle Mann
No, no, not jock sniffing, but you just. It's a wild world out there. That's all.
- [02:27]
Justin Varior
Clemson.
- [02:28]
Rob Mahoney
Well, we're glad that something went right for Nicola Jokic and the Denver Nuggets because not much is. Is going right for them. As we're recording this on Monday morning. Quick update again Tuesday night, I'm gonna be at Powell's in downtown Portland 7pm talking to Jordan Ritter Khan about his book American Men. So if you're in the area, come check us out. Game 5 of the Portland spurs series unfortunately isn't going to be much of a show. So you can come and check us out there. Anything else before we get started here? Gentlemen, how we doing?
- [02:59]
Justin Varior
Doing great. I'm ready. I'm ready to talk about some American men, some French men. I think there's just like a lot of. A lot of men of note happening in the NBA playoffs. But Kyle, what's going on with you?
- [03:08]
J. Kyle Mann
I was going to say, Justin, don't get in a photo with Jordan Ritter Khan, I'm going to say, because he's Rob. Huge. He's so tall. And you're going to be. I just wanted. I just wanted to let you know. I wanted to let you know Ringer's got some tall dudes and Jordan is one of them. But I'm excited to read that book. But yeah.
- [03:23]
Justin Varior
Oh, very much so. Is height maxing a thing you can do? I guess it's just that, like surgery where they put metal rods.
- [03:31]
Rob Mahoney
Is that mogging where you're taller than someone in a photo, or is it maxing? I can't keep track of it.
- [03:37]
Justin Varior
You've come to the wrong place, but it doesn't feel like maxing.
- [03:41]
Rob Mahoney
Come to this place for magic. Okay? Not for maxing or mogging.
- [03:45]
Justin Varior
Just you and Nicole both.
- [03:47]
Rob Mahoney
All right, why don't we take a quick break? We'll come back, talk some playoff action.
- [03:52]
Justin Varior
The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win. Winning along with them. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. Don't forget, with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game disclaimer 21 plus in select states. 18 plus for DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. A gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER call 1-887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.
- [04:28]
Rob Mahoney
All right, you guys want to talk about the Spurs? Or in other words, like do you guys want to talk? Want to see a dead body? Basically, because that's what I witnessed over two games between the Portland Trailblazers and the San Antonio Spurs. Two of the bigger comebacks I have ever witnessed live and two of the more interesting spectacles and like how the crowd reacted to all of that. So in the first time, I've never seen a building just lose its air in the way that it did when the spurs came back in that third quarter. I think because it was a marriage of the Blazers had just won game two. Wemby is out. I don't think people expected them to win that series even still, because he was obviously going to come back at some point. But there was like kind of like a charmed thing going on. Like maybe this is just working out in our favor. They were a big Wemby isn't out there. And then all of a sudden it was like Kirby just came in and vacuumed out the air of that room. Like, I've never felt a room go dead like that. Because the Spurs, Dylan Harper in particular.
- [05:28]
Justin Varior
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- [06:00]
Rob Mahoney
or just kind of haymakered them. And it was wild to witness, especially because Harper in particular was just like on another level when he had that dunk. He had a series of play, but when he had the dunk where he just like kind of reached out and you didn't expect it, I was like Grant Hill grabbing the guy next to me and Bill Rafferty after the Braylon Mullins play. I was like, whoa. It was just wild to to see
- [06:22]
Justin Varior
that dunk was unbelievable. I mean Dylan Harper, that whole stretch in game three, you're right that he is the guy who is pulling all the air out of a building like that. But that is the magic of the playoffs is like that particular moment where even if you're an underdog team, you start to talk yourself into like could we at least get to 6? And if we get to 6, can we at least get to 7? Like can we make this something? And just became so clear in the second half of that game, that that was not going to happen, that the spurs weren't going to allow it. Wimy or not. And to get what feels like a canonical Dylan Harper game this early, a treat for us. Three people have been invested in his season and kind of seeing him on the rise. But also, just like, I think you got to put this as a game of note going forward, as one that we're going to be looking back on Kyle as. As a Dylan Harper experience that could make sense in the rest of his career.
- [07:09]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah. I mean, the consistency at this level is the thing, obviously, that causes guys to level up and leap. But, you know, for the young superstars over the years, we see these little spikes in key moments where they, you know, they. They show their precociousness in. In. In a big situation. Like right when. Right when that play, that sequence. Was it the third or the fourth quarter where he made. It was the fourth where he made the big run. Right. Where he strung together a lot of points. We're talking about game three.
- [07:34]
Guest Announcer
He.
- [07:35]
J. Kyle Mann
There was almost like a. You know, when the. The tide goes out before. Like a monsoon or a. A. You know, what am I, a tsunami? Yeah. Yeah. There was a moment like that where I'm not gonna act like I sit here, make predictions all the time during games, but you could just sense it in the air. I. I have some receipts I could post to Twitter to show. But, like, the timestamp of. I was like, something feels like something's in the air here where Dylan Harper is going to make a big run. And he just has done some things physically. There's. There's nothing lucky or, like. I don't even know what the word would be, like, overly crafty. He. It's been. It is crafty, but there's physicality at the core of it. Right. He had that play where he got to the rim. He even had a play where he. Big boy Drew Holiday in Game four, where it was just like, really like this. Is that, like, Drew Holiday's nickname Might as well could be fire hydrant because he's so strong and gets under people. And harbor just moved him. So I. Yeah, all that stuff has been really impressive. I texted Joel and said that he's their second star. I don't know if it's quite there yet, because we saw what Fox did in the next game especially.
- [08:43]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [08:44]
J. Kyle Mann
It's crazy that they have that variable on their side.
- [08:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Cause that's something I've been tracking, too. Cause Fox had been pretty flat up until that point. Even in the entire series. And then even if you look over his spurs career, he's just, like, never really hit that stretch. Well, he did so in game four. Had probably his best game as a spur. Even Mitch Johnson was kind of alluding it to. But same thing happened in Game 4, where Wendy comes back largely is coasting through the first half. Seems like both. He was a little reticent to be physical coming off of the concussion, but also I think the Blazers did a good job of turning him into a jump shooter, and he wasn't making anything. Well, the spurs come back after halftime, completely fix that, and all of a sudden he's at the basket, and it's crazy watching what he could do. Not on both ends. First of all, just not even jumping, just standing up with two hands. He's already getting blocks. He had seven in this game. And it doesn't even register because he just blocks everything. And he's always deterring something or people are kind of contorting in order to get around him. Uh, it's just. So he had seven. I was like, holy shit. I didn't even realize that. But then on the other end, you see not only him when he gets to the basket, how much of a force he could be, but how much it opens up for everyone. Because the Blazers in particular are trying to guard him with Smalls, mostly Drew or Jumani or someone, and how much extra effort it takes from everybody else and how much it unlocks all those other guards. And practically, like, everyone got a turn at the wheel there, just making it. At a certain point, I was like, have they made a thousand shots in a row, unlike the previous game? Like, there was definitely, like, an error, like, sucking quality there. But, Rob, it was more like watching a snake eat something whole, where at first you're like, holy shit. Like, yeah, he's gonna eat this. And then by the end, you're, like, wincing because you're like, oh, my God, they're. They're still scoring. This is still going on.
- [10:25]
Justin Varior
Well, in preceding the snake eating, something whole, as you see like the giant boa or whatever, like, slowly starting to circle, right? It's like before the digestion has even become, like, the plant planning and the meticulous kind of, like, shifting that was happening in the Spurs, I think, was really remarkable. And it's kind of proof that this team is, like, fully arrived. They don't necessarily have answers for everything yet. Not everyone is great every game, but they have enough, and they have enough responses. I thought that second half of game four in particular, just a real feather in Mitch Johnson's cap, among many other people, in terms of how they were deploying Wemby. Like, they come into the second half immediately, Wemby sets a down screen for Devin Vassell in a way that he can then just kind of like, push Drew Holiday and kind of drag Donovan Clingan with him into the paint, which then sets up a lob from Stefan Castle to Wemby for a dunk. And you saw versions of that thing all throughout the second half where, you know, Harrison Barnes would come, set a screen for Wemby in the corner. Chris Murray tries to top lock it so aggressively because they don't want Wemby to get the ball, and they want to deny him and make things hard for him. So he just cuts back door. And this is the tradeoff of kind of like, junking up the game by putting Rob Williams or Donovan Clingan on. Stefan Castle is now all of a sudden, Rob Williams is like, at. He has to be at, like, the free throw line with Castle as Wimy cuts back door, and there's zero rim protection. And I thought there were just so many different ways that the spurs tried to tap into the fact that Wimy didn't know how to go at Drew in the first half, that he felt like a guy taking him out at the knees and didn't know how to move, didn't know how to respond. And here's these kinds of. These kinds of screening sequences. Here's like, hard rolls to the rim when you get that, like, shred of daylight to pride your holiday off of you and what you can do with it. I just think the spurs have a lot going for them and a lot kind of in their bag that they can turn to. And that's a credit to Mitch Johnson for kind of identifying very quickly, what do we need to de junk everything that Portland is throwing out here?
- [12:15]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, I think this would probably warrant, like, a closer study. I think it would be pretty fun to go look at this. But, like, what's interesting about Wimy is typically when you think about, like, vertical spacers lob thr. That's, you know, it's. You know, we need to stop them. With Anthony Davis, it was like we needed to stop him from running to. If you could get a body in front of him, like, take away his Runway to go run and then jump and catch it. Wimby, it seemed like within the course of this game, shifted from straight line rolling to. He got very smart about just finding little spots to Seal because he's an interesting lob threat. I don't even really know how many guys we've had like this because of his size, I guess is the pure thing driving it is that he got pretty clever about just finding places to Seal. Guys like Seal, Drew Seal, Robert. And then he just has to. He gets so above everybody, regardless of whether he has a Runway or not, on the defensive side of the ball. I wanted to pull this out to you guys. To me, the. The chess move that was the final. Like the python has them fully, you know, like, you know, wrapped up here and the breathing is starting to slow and go away. They switched. They were starting to make their comeback. But the thing that killed the Blazers was I noticed that Fox started guarding Denny. Like there were several possessions in a row where Fox was guarding Denny. And what. And you think about that and you're like, okay, like why? Like Fox obviously isn't going to shut him down. But what it did was it took away any, like everything that was one chess move away was bad for the Blazers. It was like, all right, are you going to hunt Devin Vassell? Are you going to hunt Stefan Castle? It was like. And so. And then they started kind of pushing Denny to the right side of the floor so he couldn't get middle and like, do his crafty foul drawing stuff. And, and. And I think that that was like the death nail for them, but I wanted to end with a stat. Okay, so sorry for this. So paint touches for the Blazers. This is how crazy the impact of win. If the Blazers had an early clock paint touch in this game, they were at 1.167 points per possession. If they had a paint possession or a paint touch that ended middle clock that fell all the way down to 0.75. So basically this is a set defense you don't want to see, especially if you have the challenges that Portland has.
- [14:31]
Rob Mahoney
And this is what I kind of came to a conclusion of, where it's just like the spurs just seem so impressive. And I think the little hiccup of Wemby with the concussion going out for a game, I think he had a little bit of worry just because anytime Wemby goes down, it just kind of dredges up all the times that he's to going gone down in the past, blood clot stuff in the past, like he. Things have happened to him and his body just seems like it's so unnatural. You just are constantly worried something might happen again. But beyond that, I don't know. The spurs have just been the most impressive team of this playoffs to me thus far, considering the level of competition, it's hard to really rate the Thunder, especially considering with J D out and then Rob, just like everything in the rest of the playoff seems to be a mess. Like teams are just dropping games they shouldn't. We got two, two series left and right and then we have all these injuries mounting all over the place. It just feels like to me right now, if things are this chaotic, the spurs stand to benefit the most. Because before if we gone into the playoffs, I would have said, I don't know. The spurs so young. Like, is this really going to be that? History tells us time and time again it can't be your first playoff. But if things are this messy and we're already talking about outlier scenarios starting to ping around, I wonder if this is the most likely of them.
- [15:43]
Justin Varior
And you have to have both of those things right. If you're the spurs, you do need some outlier scenarios. You need some breaks your way. And we're going to talk about that in terms of, you know, these injuries that are happening on other teams that might clear out some of their path. But you also need to be convincing on your own terms. Like you need to look like you have the best player on the floor. And Wemby has been that pretty much everything other than that first half coming back after the concussion, you need to look like you have, you know, the guards to toggle between where. Yeah, like I think between Castle and Harper and Fox, like one of those dudes has been really good in every game they've played to date. And so you have the lineup flexibility, you have the elite defense, you have the ability to not just like respond tactically within that defense, but have something that opponents like simply can't take away. Like, I don't know what you could possibly do as a coach, as a, as a superstar, as a guard, to deny the play where Wemby committed to Drew Holiday on a drive, turned around and then got that two handed block on a Rob Williams dunk attempt without even leaving the ground. Like, that's a play that no one else in the league should be able to make. And here it is and every team that's in the spurs path is going to have to deal with it. The Blazers just don't have enough offense for all that. And it's, I think the same is going to be true, to be honest with you, of a lot of the teams that they're going to play where these are going to be Dogfight series. If you're. If San Antonio is involved in it and you have to do everything possible schematically to like throw random at the wall just to bar, like just to budge where Wemby is on the floor in the hopes that you can get some kind of air and some kind of daylight. For that reason alone, they've just been one of the most demonstrative teams in these playoffs. I agree with you. It's like it's them and the Thunder really is kind of like the 1, 2, depending on what you make of J Dub's injury, what you make of the Suns as competition. But everyone else has really shown their limitations in a way that I don't think the spurs and the Thunder have.
- [17:34]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, the, the combo of Castle and Wimy together, the, the. The combination of ball pressure and just really looming, you know, center field drop rim protection that Wimy gives is. It's just going to be so fascinating to see where this evolves over the next decade. I hope we get to see it for a decade because hey, and you know, in one scenario you have Castle is just up in Denny the whole game. I'm sure you saw, you pick up things when you're at the game. You know, Justin, you may have seen can speak to this better, but when I was rewatching it, I was just noticing that they were picking at each other a lot. You know, that culminating moment where Denny fouled the shit out of him on that drive. Nobody really, you know, they were both, you know, you know, they both were responsible and accountable for what happened there. But I, I clipped out a couple. I sent a couple to Kirk too, where Castle was just like full on shoving Denny when he like for no real reason. And it was like I was like that just to deal with the mania of, of the ball pressure and the physicality of Castle. And then once you get past that, if you can get past that, you have to think of this pterodactyl who's in the, in the paint with his wings stretched out all the time. Like they are just fascinating because there was even a play where Denny got past Castle one time. And you see, you could see him looking up at Wimby and, and that moment where he looks up at Wimby, Castle comes in and just rips the ball away from him. So it's just there, tug and pull, like pull. It's just really, really interesting and hard to, hard to deal with.
- [18:59]
Rob Mahoney
I think the thing that really jumped out to me about the spurs based off of like my preconceived Notion was how much the. They turned the. The guard depth that they have, which in other instances could have been redundancy, into such a strength to the point where it's just like they have so many interchangeable parts. And so, like, you could practically, with Wemby in there, you could throw virtually anything out there. Because even their other players are all sort of those wing types where they're starting Julian Shinpani as like a four, but he's really just like a three wing. And so they're constantly cycling through things and kind of what like, with the Thunder and the way that they use so many different lineups that they're prepared for if someone goes down, um, it just feels like all those guys can play with all the other guys. There was a point where, like, I think they just were had like, three power forwards in the game where it was like Kelden, Carter, Bryant and Champagne. And it was just like a shift. It was like a shift before the shift. So it was like only a minute of play. It looked fine out there because it all kind of works together. And then you saw it pop offensively, certainly in those big comebacks, but even in the first one, where it's like everybody was taking their turn and they could just work it so everyone gets the right matchup, and that's the one that goes. And Fox, I think, as we alluded to before, had been the most, like, kind of disappointing in part because he seems like he fades into the background when you would hope, especially in that scenario when Wemby's out, he would take the game by the throat, but if anything, he kind of wade in late until late in the game, and then all of a sudden popped when they needed it. Because Harper, we saw in game four, like, he kind of fades at times, still figuring himself out. He's a rookie. Like, it's very much like baby deer at times. And Castle just doesn't have the same sort of shooting juice that kind of unlocks his sort of stuff there. And so Fox was like, oh, this is my turn. And then he just won the game and made sure that, like, any sort of distance was closed there. And so just the. The synchronicity of it all and the versatility and the way that Mitch Johnson has been willing to pull the strings, including just going straight small ball as his second unit, not even using, like, a Plumly or a Bismack. He just, like, did it and it was fine. He stuck to it. I've just been impressed. It's just like. It's the level of, like, you can match up with any sort of team that typically it takes a year or two to get to because you struggled with certain matchups in the playoffs. So, you know, you have to get this and that.
- [21:18]
Justin Varior
The question with all of that, because I agree with you, just they have all of those options at their disposal is going to be can they switch between them as quickly as the absolute best teams in the league. And this is where if they do, you know, come up against a team like the Thunder, frankly even a team like the Nuggets or the Wolves who just have a little bit more playoff experience than them toggling from like, oh, this isn't working. What is plan B? What is plan C? Like what, what is the level of like flexibility we have within our sets, within our rotations? Or does it take getting to halftime to go on to these huge runs, which I mean, just to really put an exclamation point on it, like a 73:35 second half in game four is preposterous. But also over the two games, 134 to 78 advantage, spurs, like, this is fucking nuts that when they do decide to put their like really foot on the gas, that they do have guys like Fox to turn to, that they do have guys like Harper who they can just turn up out of the rotation who can have those sorts of nights. But Fox in particular just the, like, this is why they brought me here kind of game. And he's been a good fourth, fourth quarter scorer for them all season. Like he's had had moments like this. But this is a huge spot and one that if we're all being honest about it, like Darren Fox hasn't had many opportunities to do. I thought it was so funny when he was on with the inside the NBA guys after the, they were asking him how he and Harrison Barnes were like talking to this young team about being prepared for the playoffs. Darren Fox has played in one playoff series. Like he's been in the NBA for a long time. But like he's new to this too. And so getting this kind of moment from him is, is a really big deal.
- [22:50]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, his shot making stacked on top of the like the possession war that we were talking about that you don't want to be in with San Antonio just because they have such an incredible set defense, like when he's making shots like that, like that was just, that was another whole other wing of things that they can, that they can, they discover and you know, you mentioned their depth and things like that. It was like Carter Bryant out there at one point it was just like, Justin, you. How many minutes would Carter Bryant play for the. For the Blazers if he was on the other side? You said that that was a talking point.
- [23:19]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, I mean, like, yeah, every time. It's pretty apparent that he probably should be on the Blazers because they had the pick in order to get them, but they traded out of it in order to go get young. I mean, he's like. He's basically what Tomani is. Not right now, but maybe like will be like, he's basically. I started calling him to Monty, like T, double O money. Like he has that, but also the upside.
- [23:40]
Justin Varior
Yes.
- [23:40]
J. Kyle Mann
Of his money. Yeah, totally.
- [23:43]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. And so it's like, why can't you use another one of those guys? Especially because you're cycling through Chris Murray and even Matisse. Thibel didn't even get in this game in game four. It's like, that's the exact type of guy they want. It's just they went a different direction. Having said that, though, I think this speaks to a lot of the clinging issues that they've had in the series. You can't go small on a team if you're big. Forces you to stay big, like. And so the ideal version of Yong makes sense. It's just like he's not even getting minutes. No, but I guess what I'm saying is, like, they need a young more than they need a Carter, but obviously Brian is. Has shown already that he's the better prospect.
- [24:23]
Justin Varior
Well, I think what they need is like a version of Rob Williams that can play like 35 minutes, and that's just not great. He's been really good when he's played in this series, I think, like, consistently better than clinging as far as what he's doing defensively. And in particular, if you want to talk about the sort of cross matching they're doing, I think he's just better suited for it. Yeah, but, yeah, at the point where you're playing Chris Murray, at the point where City Sissoko comes into this game and it's like, oh, this is a nice pop for the Blazers.
- [24:49]
Rob Mahoney
Like, he was pure.
- [24:51]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [24:53]
Rob Mahoney
Pure energy play. He was. We're completely out of this. We need him to just like, just
- [24:57]
Justin Varior
run around and be like, I. I felt his presence on the floor, but like, that's not a good thing.
- [25:03]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:03]
Rob Mahoney
Rob Williams, future. Future Lakers center.
- [25:06]
Justin Varior
Gotta be right. I mean, it almost feels too easy.
- [25:10]
J. Kyle Mann
Overpay immediately hurt. Probably. Is the scenario that you mentioned, the cross matching man, like in the third quarter in particular, I Noticed a bunch of cross matching confusion whether it was clinging at Scoot was sadly responsible for a lot of it. Like not all of them but there were several instances where they were, they were scrambling during that. Yeah you could just see their focus Wayne a lot during that run and I, you know, it's like who's holding them together during that stretch. I don't, I don't really. I don't really know who the culprit is there. But they, they definitely had some lapses that just fan the flame. I mean champagne got a bunch of open shots just as a. As a result, cross matching communication.
- [25:46]
Justin Varior
I did think this was not a good Scoot game, but it was a game where the spurs treated him like a capital S shoot shooter which in itself is like a kind of accomplishment. But this is life as a young players. Like you get on the scouting report now what. And that's going to be the next couple years of Scoot's career is figuring out how, how to attack and how to free himself from this kind of coverage.
- [26:05]
Rob Mahoney
Unfortunately talked to Dylan Harper once and just hasn't been heard from again.
- [26:09]
Justin Varior
It's tough.
- [26:10]
Rob Mahoney
Just very volatile experience for him. Clingan has been an absolute mess. Just, just terrible. Like to the point where I'm starting to wondering do you just start Rob and play small ball off the bench? He was like his best moment was actually to start game four just being hyper physical with Wemby. But like if your whole thing is you're just going to be a tough guy, like bash your brains in sort of player, like there are limited returns on that.
- [26:36]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah.
- [26:36]
Justin Varior
I think especially with Wemby where even if you are a tough guy around the rim, what does it mean if you're cross matched away from the one guy you need to be tough against? And I do think one of the other thing the spurs did to kind of neutralize some of that cross matching is like they would just have Wimby like run at Rob Williams or Donovan cling it and like forced them to guard him in a way that I think actually worked out pretty well and really like mucks up what they're trying to do in containing Castle.
- [27:03]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, I mean the whole spurs team is filled with guys like you were talking about where like it's just they, they seem to get. It's like you were joking about the Justin about the, the, the negativity makes them stronger. It seems like. It just seems like Castle plays better the angrier he gets. Wimby's patience for the stuff that clinging was doing. I was just like, man, I'd be pretty pissed off. Just, like, the little bumps that he takes granted, it's. He's lived a lifetime of that, so I'm sure that he has just sort of built a lot of cows for it. But then Harper, too. Yeah, it. It just. They seem like a team that. That really isn't the way to go with them. Like, I don't think trying to picket them is the way Wemby is so,
- [27:41]
Rob Mahoney
like, dialed in Monk style, that before he answers a question, he'll, like, pause and consider it for, like, 10 seconds.
- [27:49]
J. Kyle Mann
Like, how strange, right?
- [27:51]
Justin Varior
He'll just.
- [27:52]
Rob Mahoney
Well, it's just. It's unique in the cadence of, like, even a normal human conversation, let alone, like, a press conference thing. But he'll, like. He'll almost, like, literally put his hand to his chin, just, like, really pondering, and then he'll, like, give a very considered answer that it's like he knows everything he's gonna say is gonna amplify out like the rest of the world. It's just. It's just. I've never seen that before, but the vibes are good. Yeah, Everyone seems to be getting along. It seems like the. The way that they won both of those games, like, has really put a pep in their step. And, like, everyone is already just, like, a array of positivity that loves what they're doing. And so the spurs look formidable. And then you look at the rest of the. The playoff situation, we'll get into, like, the east and everything that's going on there, but, like, those injuries are starting to mount. So we have J Dub out week to week at this point with the hamstring strain, his left hamstring, not the same one he injured over the course of the regular season. Dante DiVincenzo goes down. Ant is out for multiple weeks. In air quotes, there are no timelines, which is also very frustrating. So we don't know if these guys are going to come back at all or just be a diminished version of themselves in the playoffs. Bum bruise and hyperextension. KD is still out, even though they won that game in hilarious fashion. It's just these injuries are. Luca still out. Reeves hasn't played yet. Although that seems like it might be a button they push in Game 5 just yet. Again, we're in the playoffs. It hasn't gotten to the state of last year where guys are going down with pretty catastrophic injuries, but another one that's been a little dampened by. By some of these injuries that are
- [29:27]
Justin Varior
mounting and I would include Aaron Gordon in that category too, who just does not look at all like himself. And that's the kind of player, if the Nuggets were going to pull off a miracle in that series, we saw it last year, like, they need Aaron Gordon heroics to do something like that. And so I think them. Them not having all their options, all of these west teams missing a guy or two, like, there's a reason we're kind of opening, talking so much about the spurs, and it's not just because the spurs have been impressive, but like the, the waters are parting here for San Antonio to go on like a really serious run.
- [29:59]
Rob Mahoney
Also, I had to get out my, my boa constrictor metaphor. I thought it was really a long winded way to get to that point.
- [30:07]
J. Kyle Mann
But yeah, I was gonna say this is the, this is the Bubba Gump theory, man. It's just like sometimes, ever, all the other boats go down and you just keep shrimping and you. And you build. You build something. I mean, that's kind of. It does feel that worse, I assume.
- [30:20]
Justin Varior
Yes.
- [30:21]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, it's classic. Well, you start thinking it's like, okay, well, if everybody is dinged, it's just kind of like we're all. We're a bunch of ding teams on a level, dinged playing field, playing each other in a. You know, but the spurs, the. Yeah, they're the only knock on wood, you know, well, when we had the concussion and everything. But hopefully it doesn't go any further.
- [30:39]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, the way the injuries are kind of lining up too. It feels like the Lakers might just get healthy enough. We'll see about Luca. There really doesn't seem to be any clear information about when he's coming back. But like, maybe, like, even if it's just Reeves and then maybe the hope of Luca in the midst of a Thunder series like that one all of a sudden gets a little bit harder while the spurs path gets a little bit easier. You assume that the Wolves are going to come out of that Nugget series three one. I mean, considering Ant and Dante are out at this point, like, the Nuggets should probably at the very least force the six or a seven in this situation. Like, if Nick Lokic is the guy that we all think it is. But they do have a very, like, left for dead. Like, perhaps we need to have a existential question about, like, how long this team's going to be together sort of vibe to them as opposed to anything else. But things are lining up for the spurs in the same way. That it typically does for, like, the right team. The team is the most.
- [31:31]
Justin Varior
Yes, there is, like, there's a fate quality to some of these playoff runs and you can see the signs early as far as who is kind of being favored by the stars in this instance. And I think what's interesting about this one is if the. If the path does clear for the spurs and the Thunder are as good as we. We know them to be coming off of last year's title. And I agree with you, I think, like, if Austin Reeds does come back, and especially if J Dub doesn't, that's a taller order in that series, but one I still fully expect. The Thunder to get through. A Spurs Thunder Conference final is kind of an affirmation in a lot of ways of the regular season and of the NBA cup, if we're being honest about it. Like, that's a matchup that would be awesome to watch and would be awesome to watch because of like a month of regular season basketball in which they played each other four times.
- [32:17]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, it's not like it's some, like, crappy consolation that it would be. Like, to your point, it would be indicative of the way that the season went. Granted, we just. We never. This. The Nuggets are just in kind of perpetual misfire mode with the injuries thing. And it kind of makes you Wonder if that 2023 run was just like everything came together with. And it. And we. Granted, it's hard to get there. It's hard to. Yes, it's hard to fly that plane, period. We should mention too, that Dante's out for like, not for good, but I mean, he's not coming back, you know, like, so that's. That's tough. The. The Jalen thing, it just kind of makes you wonder, like, is. The Thunder is so deep, man. It's like, is AJ ready? I guess that's going to become a question of like, how. How much can AJ shoulder. Because a year ago, you remember people were like, snickering about him jumping into that finals game. And now we're, a year later, we're like, okay, this dude might be a star. It's been a huge. You know, that's a. That's an outline question for them. But the. The J Dub thing, it feels pretty, pretty tenuous because I was reading about this, that wear on the hamstring really dictates a lot. They were like, if it's whether it's on the tendon or whether it's on the muscle or whether it's at the place where the tendon meets the muscle can make a big difference. So it's just kind of. We were talking about Justin smiling. I don't know.
- [33:31]
Rob Mahoney
I love this. I love this point of the season where we all become doctors based off of random articles. We find.
- [33:40]
Justin Varior
Random articles. Please.
- [33:41]
J. Kyle Mann
Trying to get accredited. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:43]
Rob Mahoney
It's a couple tweets. It's just like, oh, whoa. The. The discoloration of the knee in this specific situation. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah.
- [33:52]
J. Kyle Mann
I just gotta get. I gotta. I have it.
- [33:54]
Justin Varior
I've watched a lot of the pit. I could do a slash trick right now if you need.
- [33:59]
Rob Mahoney
No, the J Dub one seems pretty significant because I don't think that they can win a title again if J Dub doesn't come back. It just seems like he means so much to especially their offense. And, like, they're like, the Suns have made this more difficult on the Thunder. I think they're going to cruise the four tonight, but it's been a lot of Shea being heroic and he could do that. And they have the defense in order to surround him. But as the competition gets stiffer, that's where I do think that the door is open for the spurs, because that matchup was going to be tough for them regardless. They have so many offense to counterbalance all of this perimeter depth defensively. And so, like, that's where I'm just, like, that's the one that really sticks because the Thunder Art Hole, I just. I just think things are open. Things are going to get a little crazy.
- [34:41]
Justin Varior
Completely. Yeah. We talked about J Dub and sang his praises for exactly that reason. And I think, Kyle, you're right to identify that, like, AJ Mitchell will have to be more productive and more effective than he's been in this series. And I don't want to, like, saddle him with the Dennis Jenkins comparison. But, like, there is something too that sort of, like, you were really good in the regular season, but also you're kind of small. And what happens when you get in the series with, like, the real big boys, both physically and metaphorically. And we're going to see if AJ's kind of made of that. And we're going to see if Chet has, like, enough of those, like, very special offensive games where he kicks into a higher gear. And I would say Casen Wallace is also in this category, too. Not because he's going to have, like, breakout scoring games, but the difference between a case in Wallace, who has six points and 16 points, is profound for Oklahoma City. And so if they get any of those things Breaking enough in the right way, they can survive some of J Dub's absence. But whether it's the conference finals or the eventual NBA finals, you know, assuming they get that far, he's essential to so much of what they do.
- [35:41]
J. Kyle Mann
Much like Lord of the Rings, these playoffs are an opportunity for short people to save us. You know, that's just what I'm just gonna say.
- [35:49]
Rob Mahoney
It's good. Why don't we take a break?
- [35:51]
J. Kyle Mann
I thought a lot about that was good.
- [35:54]
Rob Mahoney
No, I want to go out on it. I want to punctuate it. So why don't we take a break? When we come back, let's talk about the Nuggets and some of these east teams. This episode is brought to you by Men's Warehouse. Is your wardrobe ready for every occasion? Whether you're catching the game with your buds or maybe out for an event? Because at Men's Wearhouse they've got you covered with a huge variety of clothing in styles from tailored clothing like suits, sports coats, dress shirts, tuxes for more formal events to casual clothing like polos, shirts, shorts and jeans for everyday wear. The Men's Wearhouse experts can help you work out your look while their on site tailors guarantee your clothes fit your body comfortably. Men's wearhouse has over 600 locations nationwide. They are here and nearby when you're ready to love the way you look. So Nikola Jokic had some things to say to Jaden McDaniels at the end of that last game. Or did he actually say anything or did he just like sprint down there faster than he ever did in transition during the actual game and just like rub his, his girthy.
- [36:59]
J. Kyle Mann
He ran over to him like that ski that you remember that Windows 95 ski game where like the monster runs over. That's how fast Jokic ran over to McDaniels. It was like. And would have gobbled him up if he were allowed.
- [37:11]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah,
- [37:15]
Justin Varior
a lot of this place frustration there. Like do we even want to get into the like unwritten rules of all. Like, it's, it's embarrassing to be in this situation. It's embarrassing to react that way when you just got absolutely punked. And particularly in the way the Nicola Jokic got punked, which I would say for like a good chunk of the, of the second half and especially the fourth quarter, that dude did not want the ball. Like he was doing everything possible to get off it and pawn off possessions on Jamal Murray or outlet as fast as humanly possible. Sure. In some four dimensional chess way of like we're going to try to like get back into this game. But also he just had nothing going and no responses to anything that the Wolves were doing defensively. And it's like, I get, you got to get that anger out somewhere. But like, look inward, my guy.
- [37:59]
Rob Mahoney
The crazy thing was like Jamal Murray just threw up a, like a meaningless three just right before that. And it's one thing to do it, especially because Jaden McDaniels had been talking a lot of shit going into it, or maybe a lot of correct shit.
- [38:13]
Justin Varior
We should know.
- [38:14]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. In some three dimensional like, I'm trying to galvanize my team. Everyone thinks that Jokic is just always, whenever he does something bad, he's doing something good for his team. It's like he, he throws all these turnovers, but it's actually to galvanize his team so that they play the right way on the next position. I'm just like, like, I don't think that's how like the truth works, but okay.
- [38:33]
Guest Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Men's Warehouse. What you wear depends on the occasion. Like are we talking awards, courtside seats, or just watching the game at home? At Men's Wearhouse, they've got you covered with a huge variety of clothing and styles. From tailored clothing like suits, sport coats, dress shirts, tuxes for more formal events to casual clothing like polo shirts, shorts and jeans for everyday wear. The Men's Wearhouse experts can help you work out your look while they're on site. Tailors can guarantee your clothes fit you perfectly. Men's wearhouse has over 600 locations nationwide. They are here and nearby. And when you're ready to love the way you look, this episode is brought to you by McDonald's. Fill up like every day is game day with the under three dollar menu at McDonald's. A sausage McMuffin for just a dollar fifty and when it's time for lunch, grab a McDouble for only $2.50. McValue gives players, fans and everyone in between more action for less. A sauce McMuffin is basically official breakfast of tip off day in my opinion. Get even more value with McValue. Only at McDonald's. Limited time only. Prices of participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery.
- [39:40]
Rob Mahoney
It's just like the history with the Nuggets too. He's got Jamal Murray just throwing always like the heat pack in the middle of the game. Just absolute bull bullshit, like bush league stuff. And then like Jokic has a tendency toward these games, especially as they're spiraling to Spiral himself where he'll just, like, throw up a bunch of stuff or just get a little too angry and start to confront people. And it's just like, this is just, like, not behavior becoming of a, like, the type of team we think that the Nuggets are like. And it's an interesting contrast to what like, Wemby is doing basically, just, like, being the totem for just, like, like, playing the right way and, like, doing the right things and saying the right things. To see Jokic, like, kind of being a mess in this series, and it's all his fault to begin with because, like, they put themselves in this scenario
- [40:29]
Justin Varior
also very much like a time, place, circumstance thing where you have not been playing well. The team overall has been, like, pretty lifeless throughout a good chunk of this game and just, like, has not been up to the level of intensity that the Wolves have put out. And I think that's, like, a larger problem with this Nugget season is like, like, when do you see them playing with urgency and when do you see them playing with the kind of, like, physicality that took them to the title in the first place? I don't really recognize any of those qualities in this Nuggets team. And for Jokic in particular, in this moment, like, this is in Minnesota in a game you just got run off the floor. It's not like he's embarrassing you in front of your home fans. It's not like, like, I, I. Is it so much more dignified to run out the clock when you just got embarrassed on national tv? Like, what is the difference at this point?
- [41:14]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, a couple of things. Number one, it's easy to forget. I think the myth building of the. The YIC experience of him being so brilliant over the past few years is all real. It's all valid. He has been incredible. He deserves all the flowers for that. But it's easy to forget that before that joke, it's kind of had a reputation for being, like, emotionally, he fly off the handle. He did it all the time. I would watch them and, like, clip out hilarious things that he did where he would just. He would flail and just. He always had these hilarious facial expressions. It was just he could fly off the handle for any given reason at any given time, and he kind of controlled a lot of that and bottled it. I don't know. I don't know how or where that came from. People who follow the Nuggets more, you know, Granular Lee could probably answer that question, but I think that's the easy thing to forget. Wimby went through some of that too. I don't know if you. You all probably didn't pay attention when he was younger, he would get really fired up and take himself out of games. And he's kind of harnessed that when
- [42:08]
Rob Mahoney
he was the other thing. As opposed to.
- [42:10]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's been on the radar for so long as opposed to an
- [42:13]
Justin Varior
adult superstar like decking Markief Morris at half court like Yokich. He's been out here doing this stuff.
- [42:18]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, yeah. It just. Yeah. So anyway, well, Jokic always had that like younger brother with like, like watering eyes kind of anger thing where it's just like, let's tease Nicola. Like, he's always kind of. I'm just speculating about what his childhood was like. But when you see those brothers. But then on the basketball side of it, Rob, you said, you said something interesting that I think is very true. And I had this in my notes too, where the Nuggets, like, the physicality does seem like a kind of a difference because when I watch them now, everything that I see about them, granted, they don't have Peyton Watson who can kind of go, self create. Everything is like their individual scores are all kind of evasive. Players who aren't like, I'm going to put my shoulder into you. Get down, hit like Jamal is just like, give it, get it back, you know, getting away from you kind of thing. Jaden McDaniels was constructed in a lab to guard those types of players. He's incredible getting around screens. He's super physical, he's long, he can contest shots. But Tim Hardaway Jr. You know, Cameron Johnson, like down the list. Everything is being driven by the scheme stuff. And I wrote down that they're having a hard time because Minnesota is making those actions really difficult. So their ball movement is getting stymied in a way where the ball's not humming over to somebody who's wide open. It's like, I'm tangled up. I'm trying to make a pass which is not going to be as on target. It's not going to be as zippy. And so Minnesota's able to recover. So that kind of scheme driven way that they score when Nicole is not right, what you end up is you have an offense that's in the mud. Him, him not shooting threes either is like, I don't know, everything. It just feels like the brain of what they do has been just kind of like Mortal Kombat pulled out. Like it just doesn't look right here's.
- [43:54]
Rob Mahoney
My just plea for. For all of us, let's just be more normal about the way we talk about Nikola Jokic. Like, the conversation with him is just, like, so out there. You're either on one extreme where you think that he's God amongst men.
- [44:09]
J. Kyle Mann
We want his underwear.
- [44:11]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I'm just. It's just so odd the way he's talked about. There's a clip circulating that I hadn't seen before. In the wake of all this, I guess Zach Lowe had Stan Van Gundy on his show, and Zach was like, I think he could be. He is the, like, the best offensive player of all time. And I was like, no. But, like, I'll hear that argument. Right. I'll hear best player in the world as an argument. Like, because he just does so many good things. His. His regular season dominance is unlike anything that we've probably seen since LeBron, and LeBron did it in a different way. But then Stan comes over the top. He's like, I think he's the best player of all time. I was like, what? Like, how is that even in the realm of, like, I was thinking to myself as a watchman, is Michael Jordan fucking underrated at this point? Like, do we underrate the fact that he went 6 for 6 in the NBA Finals? I just. It's just like, we went too far. And I almost feel like we need to recalibrate here. Like, for me, with Jokic, just, like, let's get to Dirk. Right? Like, Dirk, I think, is the. I think Jokic is a better player, and I think he's more dominant in
- [45:12]
J. Kyle Mann
the regular season, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna just reach across and pump the brakes. Like, there. There's a significant distance between Dirk and Jokic. Significant. I love. I love both of them dearly, but that's not even close.
- [45:24]
Rob Mahoney
Yes, but the postseason success where Dirk won probably one of the most miraculous Finals ever and also actually went to another Finals, like, can we get it? Just, like, we can't just discredit all this thing when we say this is the most important thing.
- [45:40]
Justin Varior
Yeah.
- [45:40]
Rob Mahoney
And so, like, best European player of all time. Let's. Let's like, let's cross that bar and let's, like, make sure we're hap. Like, sure. With this discussion before we get to the Wild. That's happening. Happening.
- [45:51]
J. Kyle Mann
Are we litigating Jokic right now? Overall, he's not.
- [45:54]
Justin Varior
Right.
- [45:55]
J. Kyle Mann
I mean, I think that. Rob you with that. Go ahead.
- [45:58]
Rob Mahoney
What, so you think it's like, it's purely injury related.
- [46:02]
J. Kyle Mann
He's not. He hasn't been physically right, I don't think, since he. Since he came back. I. I don't. I don't think. He just doesn't look right to me.
- [46:09]
Rob Mahoney
I think, yes. Yeah, clearly, like, yes, that is hampering him in obviously, the injuries around him. But my thing with Jokic has always been like, you need the right pieces around him in order to unlock what he does. Like, he sacrif sacrifices so much defensively and like, the reason why he has been passable on that end at times, or if not, just like, kind of good and certainly in that playoff run is you put someone like Gordon around him and Michael Porter Jr. You build the size and the combination in order to cover that up. So he could be so brilliant. And it's just like without that, you start to see the things like, he's a certain type of great and not the type of one that could be great in all sorts of scenarios. Now, the counterpoint to this would be like, what if you just switched him with Wemby right now? Like, if he had grown up with all of these, like, fantastic guards. They got lucky in the lottery. They built that sort of team. Sure, I'll hear that too. But I'm just like, part of their lack of success in this series is their defense has been catastrophic. And we can't overlook that just because he's like, picking teams apart offensively.
- [47:15]
Justin Varior
I think it would be fine if he was picking teams apart offensively. Like, right. If you're doing the thing you showed up to do, then I'm willing to forgive a lot. I'm willing to say, okay, the trade offs make sense. As far as him being like, basically a traffic cone non entity defending the rim, you can deal with that. If he's being his methodical, cerebral best on offense, the Wolves have completely taken that away. And so I'm not relitigating Jokic so much as, like, he's a great player in his time. And I think when we come out of this era is going to clearly be one of the best and defining players of this era. I also think by team accomplishment feels very possible that he could be eclipsed by Shai and Wimby, and they are the guys who kind of like, stand above in public memory decades from now, despite the fact that Jokic is going to come out with all these MVPs, with all this individual production, with a championship of his own, he's an amazing player and still, like, for my money, one of, if not the best player in the League one of two or one of three. Like that's as far as the argument is, like, I'm willing to go as far as guys who are playing right now. I'm just not even going to get into the historical conversation until we get the full Nikola Jokic historical record. Like he has too much to prove as far as what he can do on a team success level relative to the other highest order superstars of all time. I don't normally subscribe to the idea of like, oh, we're just going to have like a rings conversation. But rings are an interesting tiebreaker when you're debating the 10th and 9th best players to ever play. And if you don't have the track record of team success, it's just going to be hard to outclass some of these other guys who he's going to be up against in those conversations.
- [48:46]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, but the team driven thing is driven. Like if you're going to, if you're going to come into it and say like, oh, like it's a negative that Jokic needs to have an Aaron Gordon, or it's just that come, let's be serious. I mean like through it throughout, throughout history, every superstar, no matter how good they are. Michael Jordan, the guy that my generation purports is the best of all time, needed a player like Scottie Pippen. I've, I've sung his praises. Scottie Pippen is an MVP level player on any other team and Jordan needed him to win six of 10 championships. I don't think that that is a thing to decide. I just, and I wanted to say too, on, on the dirt before that gets clipped out, that like, I'm disrespecting Dirk and it needs to give away. We're talking about first team, all NBA versus multiple time mvp. That's the, that's the stratosphere that we're talking about. I just think that you mentioned the trade off thing. The Nuggets are built on the idea of a trade off right now, which is like their offense is going to be so good that you can, you can combo compensate for some of the defensive stuff right now and the trade off just isn't there. And it's like the, the offense, all his weapons just aren't there and as functional as they normally are. They need that extra creation from Watson. They need Brown to hit shots, they need, Murray's been fine, but it's just the defense is so bad. Like you said, it's like, you know, yo, Jokic can't, you can't do that and then he absolutely is indictable on defense in a way that's kind of like. And him losing his cool. So I think all the. It's a balance, but. But it is the defense.
- [50:06]
Justin Varior
Yeah, it is a balance. I think offensively though, all parties involved with Denver are culpable here. Like, if Jokic were dominant enough offensively, where he would go going like one on one against Gobert and really getting to his stuff, then the Wolves have to overreact. Then you're creating more shots for the supporting cast with Denver. And I thought Jokic actually had moments in the first half where he accomplished that. Like, he was finally getting to his runner cleanly in a way that he hadn't been all series. Not by like banging into Gobert and trying to create space, but just by like catching him wrong footed in a way that you would expect someone like Jokic would be able to do. And then it just disappeared. Then he just like lost that part of the game and lost the feel for, like, how to attack that stuff without getting swarmed. And so there's the. There's the com. Like the combination of he's not a dominant enough one on one player in this series to keep the Wolves honest in terms of how they're guarding everything. And then you have all of these supposed, like, size advantages that Denver has. Take a guy like Cam Johnson, you'll see him cutting to the basket and he just looks completely shaken up in his ability to finish around the rim to the point where he's not even taking some of those, like, passes. He's getting on cuts and like, desperately trying to pass out of them. The Nuggets are just playing scared. Like, they're playing like a team that does not trust their ability to convert the opportunities that they have. And I say that inclusive of Nicola Jokic.
- [51:21]
Rob Mahoney
Do you think that Jokic is so far ahead of this that he actually wants to go down 31 because he knows what a legacy builder it would be to beat the team that's beat him in the past. Past. That's how far ahead.
- [51:32]
Justin Varior
Too much.
- [51:33]
Rob Mahoney
You're enjoying this too much.
- [51:34]
Justin Varior
As someone who has had, like. Look, I. I hear everything you're saying.
- [51:38]
J. Kyle Mann
Present your trauma. I don't know. That's what I.
- [51:40]
Justin Varior
That is true.
- [51:41]
Rob Mahoney
This is in all of us. Am I right?
- [51:43]
Justin Varior
This is us hitting Justin for years about, you know, the Nicole Jokic ascendance. And you're right to right now have us all eat a little bit of crow. I just don't want the revisionism with it, like, he's been one of the best players, if not the best player in the league. He's also right now, bad. Like, not good enough to win or even compete in a series like this.
- [52:03]
J. Kyle Mann
I also think we're being lame as shit because we're not. Like, we're.
- [52:06]
Guest Announcer
We're.
- [52:06]
J. Kyle Mann
We're leaning this towards, like, the Nuggets not being who they are. It's also equal part that the Timberwolves have been badasses. Like, Rudy has been awesome on defense. And I want to make sure that we get that very clear, like, that it can be easy to shortchange. Minnesota was being like, well, the absence of the Nuggets means the Timberwolves win. It's like, no. The Timberwolves have asserted their will defensively to very impressive way.
- [52:27]
Rob Mahoney
Apparently, it helps to have the architect of the Nuggets basically playing a team in order to beat your former team. Colbert has been absolutely just lights out. Probably the best postseason series he's ever played. And then IO Dasumu just all of a sudden looks like the best player.
- [52:46]
J. Kyle Mann
Well done.
- [52:48]
Rob Mahoney
We also waited until, like, 20 minutes into the conversation to even mention him when he had 42 points all off the bench in a playoff series. I mean, if anything, my thought as he was doing that was like, holy. Cause he's gonna be a fragment this offseason. Like, has he almost, like, played himself off of this team? Because if you're a team with capstase, like, you're the Nets or one of the scenes, you're like, this could probably be my starting guard. Why is he coming off the bench and absolutely, like, just dusting this quality playoff.
- [53:16]
Justin Varior
I mean, I think this is the best role for him. And this is why, if you're Minnesota, it was the perfect trade for what they needed is he can be the guy who stands in the corner and gives you pure energy for 26 minutes in a playoff game. He can also elevate and fill space in terms of creation, like he did here. Where, particularly in a game like this, where the Nuggets just, like, are not up to the level of physicality and energy that the Wolves are bringing. I would assume it was, like, the rocket fuel of all of that. And so he was unbelievable in this game. I mean, maybe is his. Is his going off in game four the best thing to happen to the Chicago Bulls in the playoffs in 15 years is that their greatest playoff accomplishment is, like, we used to have this guy on our team.
- [54:00]
Rob Mahoney
The Three Alphas had some moments. I don't know.
- [54:02]
Justin Varior
I mean, did they, did they have their moments?
- [54:06]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, not many, but I will say in the Bulls defense and that's getting tougher and tougher by the day. It's like the reason why Caruso and Kobe White and Desumu have been so good in their other scenarios is they were miscast as this focal points of a team. You're right. Like they should be like the sixth men and like the guys that add to an already established team. Like Caruso in particular. Like that is his perfect ro, especially considering his injuries concerned like Kobe White. Like, oh, defensively in the small size, like he should pop off the bench for a team and who could also start him at times. And then you seen what IO does. Like this has been the perfect use for him, especially because. Especially when he has all this defensive girth next to him. Like he pops and his speed really makes a difference in all these situations.
- [54:52]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I think he was a huge reason, not just with the scoring, but the activity level and the assertiveness of his game. Why it has felt like Minnesota is dealing all the body blows in a series like this and why when you get to the end, if there's any like loose ball situation, like there was one point in which there was a, like I think it was a 4 on 0 Timberwolves fast break out of a turnover. It's like that's, that's indefensible for playoff basketball. And yet when you watch it, every time there's a ball up for grabs, the nuggets all kind of like shrink and slump their shoulders and the Wolves are just feeding on all of that activity, on all of that energy. And it's, it's such a collective thing. And this is, this is part of why Dante's injury is such a bummer, is he's such a great feeder of that. And to see a guy playing amazing, hyperactive, really like gutsy basketball for a team that's on the run that the Wolves are on right now and just see him go down in the fashion he did, it's heartbreaking in a bunch of different ways. And like it's gonna affect Dante's career and the trajectory of it. It's gonna affect the Wolves and the run that they're on. Even if they were hoping to get Ant back at some point, he was going to be an important part of that formula. But overall, like they're playing with that edge that great playoff teams do. And this is, this is the reason why you could never count out the Wolves at any point in the season. It's like up as up and down as they are. Like they, this is a team of dogs and they will respond in these moments a lot of the time if they have even a whiff of precision to them, they're going to give you the fight of your life.
- [56:17]
Rob Mahoney
I'm glad you mentioned the dogs here because we have to upgrade Harper and and Brian to full status members of the Dirty Old Dogs team.
- [56:24]
Justin Varior
Yeah.
- [56:24]
Rob Mahoney
Also joining them, Colin Murray Bowles. Oh hell yeah. I have in my notes here CMB equals DOD dir.
- [56:31]
Justin Varior
Yo dog, if you had to like power rank the best players in Cavs Raptors right now, how far do we go down that list before you get to Colin Murray Boyles, is he like the third best player in this series right now?
- [56:44]
J. Kyle Mann
Oh wow.
- [56:45]
Justin Varior
I like, like Scotty Barnes has been the best player in the series. I think that's pretty clear after like four games in Donovan Mitchell and James Harden have had some really dicey moments. Evan Mobley I would not say has played his way into this conversation. Maybe, maybe RJ Barrett has a case like he's been pretty solid and pretty sturdy for the most part for the Raptors. But, but Colin Berry Boyles, holy like a really staking acclaim as like a really critical part of the future of the Raptors with the way he's played in this series.
- [57:14]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, his physicality and, and just cerebral ness are a big reason why they're able to play to play small like that. Just his ability to guard multiple positions. He's super strong, he gets under people. His timing is so good. His passing is good. All the things, all these things were things that popped in the draft process and we were just kind of wondering about how high is too high for him because of his brain and things because we were worried about a below the rim score. How is he going to space. But I mean it's been. Granted it's been pretty ugly. I mean the, The Raptor shot 13.3% from three and 32% from the field. They had to, to bring it back again. They had to kind of Hungry Hippo the Cavs to death in this game. James Harden looked like he needed an Illiquid IV in the first quarter. I thought it was maybe literally, but. But I believe it was the lowest
- [58:01]
Justin Varior
3 point percentage ever for a team that won a playoff game. And at one point I looked up cleaning the glass during the game and it was a zero percentile offense against a one percentile offense. Like this was as ugly as it could get. But the Raptors pulled it out and And CMB pulled it out in particular.
- [58:18]
Rob Mahoney
It's just performances like this just make me think like we twist ourselves into knots. Like, what if this happened? What if that happened? And like, oh, maybe the Cavs have finally got it right the second half of of the season. Right. They have James, hard things might be turning around. There's enough evidence to suggest that. And then it's just like at a certain point a team kind of is who they are. Like we go through 82 fucking games of this mess. We should probably just take a team who they are, the Nuggets in particular, where it's like, oh, pretty injured and flawed. Maybe not their year, but I in particular talk myself into like, oh my God, the window might be there have same thing. And it's just like, maybe this team is just a fucking mess and they'll just never figure it out. And that was kind of what I was thinking as I was watching back in this game. It's just like I just don't know how much more I have left to give to both Harden and the Cavs in terms of just like leeway.
- [59:06]
Justin Varior
There's no stat for heart. Is that what you're getting at?
- [59:09]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. It's only I've just become a talking head over the course of the pod.
- [59:15]
Justin Varior
There's a wisdom in it.
- [59:17]
Rob Mahoney
It's just I can't do it anymore. Like, you know, like the window was so open for them because as we're looking at the east here, it's just a big old mosh pit. It like the Celtics look the best, but then on that wrong night where you catch the Sixers, it's just like, oh, like maybe this team isn't that good. It's just the, the Pistons again down on the Magic Hawks, Knicks tied. Really comes down to like if Towns is going to show up on a given night. I don't really know what to make of the East. It almost feels like a lesser version of what we talked about the west where it's just like maybe this also you're just going to win it because somebody has to win this and they just might be the best of pretty like compact sort of field here.
- [59:56]
Justin Varior
Yeah, I think the best thing you could say about the Celtics because yeah, their flaws did come home to roost in that loss to the Sixers. And I would say that the things in particular were Tatum and Brown trying to do way too much, like really over dribbling in a way that bogs down the offense and also the realization that if that team isn't playing with like a really, really high, exceptional level of effort, they can lose to a lot of teams. Like they have to be a work hard contender. And so maybe just by virtue of advancing deeper in the playoffs, you're not meeting a team like the Sixers who you feel like you don't have to take seriously wrongly because it'll catch you on that night. I think otherwise, all of these teams feel super flawed and I don't want to like write anybody off just yet other than to say at this moment in time, as we are recording, it feels super possible that two or three of who we thought to be the contending teams in the east could be bounced out of the first round. That's it. That's an insane place to find our. Ourselves.
- [60:50]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, I'm to the point where I, you, you start to look ahead and think about best possible outcomes for us not, you know, to, to have as fun a playoffs as we can possibly have. I'm getting to the point where I really think I would like to see whether it's Thunder or Spurs, but I'd really like to see the Celtics because I, I. You're talking about the ups and downs of all these teams. I'm not fishing for a raise here when and when I say this, but I just think that Boston, Boston Thunder or Boston spurs would be a pretty fun series because you've got the perimeter flexibility to throw at the, at the, at those teams, the PH shoot a ton of three, so their variance is pretty wild. Granted, the big guys are kind of maybe not to the level on, on as, as those west teams, but I feel like I trust them the most. I mean, granted we have like Peyton Pritchard. We have Peyton Pritchard Leap territory happening here where people are just like, yeah, we need to take him pretty seriously. Like they were. They couldn't put in beat in the game because Pritchard was just torching them anytime that they did with his ability to, you know, I just, I'll submit that to you all just as a jumping off point that we're with Embiid.
- [61:53]
Justin Varior
You're shameless. Just, just the, the Celtics and Peyton Pritchard love on top of it. Come on, Kyle. Come on.
- [61:59]
J. Kyle Mann
It's real. I can't help. I can't help what's real. Headline. There you go. I can't.
- [62:03]
Rob Mahoney
I didn't have it on my bingo card that Embiid would miraculously return yet again in the postseason. And he basically got played off the floor by the smallest white guy on the floor. It's Just like, it just didn't seem like he had any shot. And I didn't expect this from Peyton Pritchard, but like, the Celtics just have so much going for them and they have the clearest sense of their identity. I think, like, you saw work against them where the Sixers were able to pick apart some of the flaws that they have perimeter wise on defense where you could, like, you could isolate Hauser or Pritchard or some of these other guys and really make him work for it. But like, when their shots are going like they're a force, and I can't really say that about any other team in the east because the Knicks have looked, when they've looked, right, it's. You're like, oh, okay, like Towns has something going, right? But I just, that's the only thing I can come away from from like the first set of games with east teams where it's just like, I, I know this team, I know what they do, and they play to that strength consistently.
- [63:06]
Justin Varior
It's proven to be an impossible standard for the Eastern Conference, apparently. Like the, you're, you're spot on, Justin, to like, point identity in particular. And I look at the Pistons as a great example of that, where, yes, they have the worst offense of any team in the playoffs right now. Worse than that is the fact that they've been beaten on their own terms by the Magic. Like, they're supposed to be the physical imposing team in a series and the Magic have just completely outclassed them in the thing they're supposed to be good at.
- [63:32]
Rob Mahoney
Had.
- [63:32]
Justin Varior
And then, yeah, you look at not only the Knicks, but the Cavs and be like, what are you supposed to be like? What are the things you're supposed to be hanging your hat on? And for the Cavs, size was a huge part of it. And you see Evan Mobley being out, like, outplayed by Colin Murray Boyles, I think the, the defensive switch to have Yaka Purdle guarding him in the series has also been really important. And shout out to Darko Reakovich for that, like a really smart maneuver. Jared Allen was like, out of critical portions of this game as the cast tried to go smaller to get any kind of offense on the floor. And so it's like, okay, what are you, like, what is it that you're really relying on? What is it that is kind of the thesis statement of your team? And for the Knicks, I think that question is even messier right now. Like, at the best, the best version of the Knicks is still very talented and you're right, like Cat has had incredible moments, has looked really vital to what they do. Jalen Brunson's also looks super targetable. Him, he is bogged down the offense at times over dribbling. Mikhail Bridges is functionally a ghost in a lot of these games. I don't know what is fair to even expect of the Knicks and the Cavs for all of the talent that they have because I just don't know what those teams are in this kind of setting.
- [64:39]
Rob Mahoney
The Pistons series is funny because it almost feels like they're in a knife fight with another team with a slightly bigger knife. I thought that the contrast of the Hornets would have been the optimal way in order to show some of the flaws of that team. If anything, a team almost built similarly is almost shown that like you could push them around in a way that I wonder if it. If they come out of that series, which is a big if at this point because as we're recording this, they're only. They're down 1, 2 in Magic Land tonight. But like I almost wonder if that is a recipe for other teams to play bigger and better against them in the ways that that could be exploitable. But I just don't know. If I were to just like really get into the depths of like what I think could happen but hasn't happened thus far. I do wonder if the Knicks win their right could be the ultimate test for a Celtics team, if only because of all those defensive concerns that we said thus far. I think OG has been great and you never. And with Mikhail, the thing is like he could just flip it on and have decent performances out of nowhere. That's the problem with someone that you paid what you paid in order to get him, but like he's shown up enough. Just. It hasn't happened this far. So I'm wish casting at this point, but that's kind of where I'm left with the east at this point because it's just like you don't know what you're gonna get on a given night.
- [65:58]
Justin Varior
Yeah, og. OG has been a complete baller for them. And really the difference in some of these games between in the case of the losses, like losing by one versus losing in a blowout and in the case of the wins being just like one of the most important things they have going on a consistent basis. And that's just both good and bad that OG is that crazy critical to this team like you, you just want enough kind of load bearing pillars among that core so it doesn't all have to be is OG hitting corner threes and making like one of one plays defensively. Ideally there'd be enough else kind of carrying the Knicks and kind of putting wind in their sails. It's just, it's hard to find that right now. And I say that even after coming off of a win in which they look their best by far against the Hawks to date.
- [66:39]
J. Kyle Mann
Yeah, I just wonder if like the Cat Brunson marriage is just so. I, I honestly think it's difficult to build around a player like Brunson in general. I don't think. I mean, that's not a controversial idea, but like to build a title level team. Brunson's, Brunson's insistence on being on the ball and he's not exactly a 0.5, you know, primary option. He doesn't really get off it quickly all the time. He can. And then you get, you know, combine that with Cat's prone, proneness to just disappear or not pick his spots wisely. It's just, I just wonder if that marriage is headed for. I know I picked the Knicks to go to the finals and I was joking with our buddy Keith Fujimoto, who's a big Knicks fan. I was like, why did I do that after they lost the Hawks the second time? Because you just, you look at it on paper and you think it would work with like the talent that they have. But there's just something about the synergy of those two stars together that just feels off to me. And then speaking to the, to the Pistons Magic thing, we were talking about how Durin, you know, I thought that Bickerstaff did a pretty decent job of like putting Duran in some situations to get, get little rhythm shots and maybe find it. He still hasn't figured out how to play in tight space. And I think we're just kind of hitting a developmental like, step that he's just not ready to make or he's going to have to make. Granted, he's still really young, but I think they've kind of, they've kind of pantsed him a little bit in terms of what he's able to do, making decisions and tracks traffic.
- [68:05]
Rob Mahoney
So I would say this is the most I've felt like I don't know what's going to happen next in the midst of a first round in a very long time. And that chaos is actually pretty fun. I think unpredictability is something that the NBA hasn't had a lot of in years past. But I'm also kind of like, what do I do with my hands. Like, I typically have a. Like a strong pulse on things, but especially in the east, it's just like, yeah, yeah, you could sell me on anything right now.
- [68:33]
Justin Varior
I think the byproduct of that is just I have never felt more certain that the Thunder or the spurs are going to win the title. Like, it just. It's just whoever makes it out of the East. And granted, I want to give, like, all due credit. If the Magic pull off this win, if the Raptors pull off the full comeback and win that series, like, that'd be an incredible achievement for those teams. Those are not teams that can compete with, you know, first off, you know, the Knicks or the Celtics or whoever they have to play against next. But then just if you make it through the east, the Thunder and the spurs are just on a different tier of competition. And so it feels like, like San Antonio has a. An astronomically higher percentage of getting to the conference finals now than they would have two weeks ago, just based on the way everything has unfolded. And the Thunder are that good. I think there's a lot of near term unpredictable unpredictability, but a lot of kind of like medium to long term. What feels like certainty as far as one of those teams ultimately sealing it. It.
- [69:29]
Rob Mahoney
All right, you guys want to have any more historical debates here? Want to do Jordan, LeBron before we get out of here?
- [69:35]
Justin Varior
That one always goes.
- [69:35]
J. Kyle Mann
Well, I had, I. I did have a thought about. I did have one historical thought. I was looking. I was thinking back about the 2016 playoffs, as one does. Yeah, yeah. I think that the 2016 playoffs were like a death knell for monogamy. I was thinking about it, you know, Durant, after that experience, he. He decides that his needs aren't being met and he's, you know, he's loyal to no one. He's going to move on. LeBron wins his third title in five years. He wins it with a second team. So he's just like, yeah, the decision worked. I'm bouncing around. I can win wherever I go. Isaiah Thomas, he gets. He gets traded to the Celtics. He becomes an all star. He's having the time of his life. He gets hurt, and boom, he gets traded by Danny Ainge. No loyalty, you know what I mean? Like, just immediate breakup. And then in game six of that series, Klay Thompson discovers that. That the balance in the universe is decided by whether or not he is getting shots up. You know, it supersedes all relationships, all circumstances, all other pursuits. And then we fast forward, you know, to now and we learn that even Megan, the. The Stallion is not exempt from this. So I just think that 2016, I was just kind of pinpointing that as, like, the death of monogamy. Me, you know, I don't know how you guys feel about that.
- [70:51]
Justin Varior
The looping of Clay into this, and by extension, Megan, I mean, Clay.
- [70:56]
J. Kyle Mann
Clay has to get his shots up, I think is what we've learned, man, regardless of the. Of the medium.
- [71:01]
Guest Announcer
Yeah.
- [71:02]
Rob Mahoney
What's. What's great about that is I asked before the podcast, like, oh, does anyone want to talk about anything? Like, you guys want to hit? Like, I'll make sure we get to it. Right. And then Kyle's like, nope, I'm just nothing.
- [71:12]
J. Kyle Mann
Just waiting to play in house. He had her playing house.
- [71:15]
Justin Varior
He had her playing house. The whole family. It was the whole thing.
- [71:18]
Rob Mahoney
Damn.
- [71:19]
Justin Varior
The way. The speed with which that cycle has unfolded where people have now pulled up screenshots from one of Clay's exes, posting excerpts from his diary. I'm like, this is just like, we've gone through five news cycles in what feels like 24 hours of this. So I guess we're just digging the holes really, really fast these days is what I'm saying.
- [71:39]
J. Kyle Mann
Clay's writing voice sounded exactly like I thought it would. I just wanted to say.
- [71:45]
Rob Mahoney
So you're saying polycule is the way to the future, right?
- [71:49]
Justin Varior
Portland, man chimes in.
- [71:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I just think I got ahead of it.
- [71:52]
J. Kyle Mann
2016, I think, was the moment when monogamy died. That's all I'm saying.
- [71:57]
Rob Mahoney
When the dating apps were really pinging. So I believe it.
- [72:01]
J. Kyle Mann
Another bullet point. There we go. It's piling high.
- [72:04]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. All right, let's wrap it there. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Stefan Anderson for filling in today. We'll be back recording Wednesday night, so look for the show in your feeds first thing Thursday morning. We'll talk to you next time. Enjoy the basketball. 21 in present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MYRESET. Call 1-1-888-78-9-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-70-7867.