← The Ringer NBA Show
The Ringer NBA Show
Are the Thunder Primed to Repeat? Plus, KD Lands in Houston. Is This His Last Stop?
01:09:49
Loading summary
Transcript208 lines
- [00:00]
Logan Murdoch
What's Poppin Real Ones? Logan Murdoch here. We have a great show for you today. It's me, Raja, Howard Beck. We talk about the last remnants of the Finals. Talk about a great conversation on the Kevin Durant trade to Houston and the ramifications for both the Rockets and the Suns. We get into a little talk about the Drew Holiday trade to Portland. What are these teams doing? Is this the new frontier or a sign of the new frontier of the Apron era and its ramifications. We get into all of that. We get into your mailbag questions. There was a heated discussion about Jalen Green. That was really unexpected. Shout out to Fresno, though. Then, you know, Raja gets into his dad bag as well. It was a lot of fun today. A lot of fun. But, yeah, we have a great show for you. Make sure you tap in. I play the theme music right now. What's Poppin Real One? Slogan. Murdoch here, Raja Bell there. Howard Beck in the back, in the cut. Howard. Raja. It's good to see you guys. More like Raja. I haven't seen Raja in fucking years. How you doing, buddy? What's going on?
- [01:10]
Raja Bell
Where you been at? I'm doing well. I was chasing. I was chasing DIA all across the country. Last week. We were out in Manhattan beach for Elite 11, and then we had his official visit out in Austin over the weekend. So we were. We were traversing the Southwest slash West Coast.
- [01:29]
Logan Murdoch
MVP of the elite. Elite 11, huh?
- [01:32]
Raja Bell
Yeah, like. Like, you know, yeah, he did well. He had a good. I'll tell you what. Let me just say this. Yes, he did win the MVP of the Elite 11. And we are very, very proud. But the Elite 11. What? What? What? And I like Brian. I've told Brian Stumpf, who runs the Elite 11, this, and his whole staff, an incredible experience, not just for the kids, like, but, like, for the parents. All the things that we had resources at our disposal. But it was cool because, you know, I was watching all these dudes who were out there, like, really competing and wanting to win this mvp, but they fostered such, like, a culture of, like, fellowship and brotherhood that it was really cool to watch all these dudes out there cheering for each other, pulling for each other. And just as a college football fan, like, all jokes aside, that's my, like, probably my favorite sport next to basketball. That's the face of football, like, college football in, like, three or four years. All of these dudes that were running around that field. So I was kind of geeking out a little bit, but amazing experience.
- [02:25]
Logan Murdoch
That's dope, bro. Yeah, that's what's up. You got the. And you got the picture. You and wifey and Lil Homie with Sark.
- [02:32]
Raja Bell
Yeah. Equally amazing like those. They laid. They laid it out. I think there were 17 recruits out there. It was our only official visit. Obviously, D has been locked in for a while, but, like, they man their recruiting department and the coaches just put on like that. Yeah. Crazy.
- [02:49]
Howard Beck
This episode is brought to you by State Farm.
- [02:51]
Logan Murdoch
On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates who are there when it counts.
- [02:58]
Howard Beck
That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help.
- [03:02]
Logan Murdoch
You find the coverage you need.
- [03:03]
Howard Beck
You could focus on what really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just.
- [03:07]
Logan Murdoch
Getting through the day.
- [03:08]
Howard Beck
State Farm with the assist.
- [03:10]
Logan Murdoch
Coverage options are selected by the customer.
- [03:12]
Howard Beck
Availability and eligibility vary by state.
- [03:17]
Logan Murdoch
Let's do it, man. Let's talk some hoops. We're going to talk about little. Little OKC championship vibe. Their parade is today. Drew Holiday trade. Geez. And the KD trade. We got some mailbag questions and we'll see where it takes us. But first, the question that I have for Raja is if you want a championship, would you celebrate the way Oklahoma City did?
- [03:41]
Raja Bell
Meaning?
- [03:43]
Logan Murdoch
Well, our guy J Dub shout out to J Dub had his first drink. They had to YouTube how to pop a bottle. And I think everybody got to sleep by 11 o' clock. Think everybody was sound asleep by then.
- [04:00]
Raja Bell
Listen, man, if you're asking me, had we. If had we won a championship, would that have been the. No. The answer is absolutely, unequivocally no. But. But they are a very young team. I mean, that's just hilarious. They're. They're a young team, and it just. It just kind of illuminates what I already know is just how different the league is now, you know, from a standpoint of, like, what they do in their free time, like, how often they are. They are out and just generally the age. Right. Like, we didn't have as much youth on a lot of the teams we were on. So, look, you win a championship, you can celebrate however you want. Good for y' all.
- [04:43]
Logan Murdoch
Howard, you were on the ground for. What was it like? What was it like to see them win the championship? And also the game was kind of. But what was the. What was the overall vibe in Oklahoma City post first championship in franchise history?
- [04:55]
Howard Beck
So you got exactly what you wanted in terms of, like, the last minutes are counting down. You got your typical. Crowd's getting a little louder, louder Louder. They can feel it. They can taste it. It's coming. You know, it's in the bag. Because it had been a tense game, right? And you have like the whole, like, the Tyrese Halliburton, like, just the Paul that. That cast over everything early on. And, you know, credit, by the way, shout out to the Thunder fans, first of all, awesome fan base. I think it's the loudest arena in the NBA. But also, you could tell something was wrong with Tyrese. I know everybody on tv, based on social media could tell me, like, oh, we could see it pop.
- [05:28]
Logan Murdoch
Cool.
- [05:29]
Howard Beck
Awesome. Great. Guys, you can't see that in the freaking arena. We just saw him go down. He's on his knees. And initially it looked like just frustrated about turnover. Then it's clear something else. Anyway, shout out to the fans because as soon as he got up and. And had to be helped off, big cheers there, like, very supportive. So the vibe, by the time you get to the end of the game, that's no distance, everything's awesome. But even before the celebration, everybody's like, oh, wow, they're first drinks. And they didn't know how to pop champagne bottles. Even on the court, it seemed like they didn't know what to do. They were just kind of like, okay, we're. We're about to win a championship now what? And even the celebration on the court, the trophy presentation, they just all had like, this kind of giddy, nervous energy, but not. It wasn't the same as, like, Kobe jumping up on the table with his arms out, KG shouting, anything is possible into the rafters. Or LeBron, Cleveland, this is free. Like, there was nothing. There was no, like, defining thing, no exaltation. That was like, this is the moment. And it was. It was just funny. Like, I liked it. I liked that the uniqueness of this one was that there wasn't any of those things like the KG thing or the LeBron thing or the Kobe thing. It was just them trying to figure out, like, what do we. What do we feel now? We did it. Like, because there I. They're so ahead of schedule. Youngest team to win the championship in almost 50 years. Second youngest to win it in the last 70. It's almost appropriate to just kind of like, try to figure out how to feel and how to act and what to do in the moment. I thought that that was actually kind of charming the city afterward, you know, the first championship I covered way back in 2000, like, you're riding late anyway, but then you're getting these warnings at Staples Center. In la, like, hey guys, you may not want to go out to Figueroa right now. Things are kind of dicey out there. Like shit's getting turned over. I think there was a, you know, car on fire or something. You got a little messy in downtown LA. And I've been in a bunch of these. My 23rd finals. I haven't been there for the close out of all of them, but every one is different. When I finally got out of the arena, I left at like 1am I was not done writing, but I wanted to grab a drink with, with the hospitality room two blocks to the hotel. I wasn't sure because I'd heard like cops are trying to clear the area. I walked out, there was like, like five guys, five people like taking photos of each other in front of like some banners in front of the arena and otherwise like crickets. Like it was quiet. Downtown Oklahoma City is pretty quiet anyway now Bricktown was off to my right. Walking out of there, I'm sure Bricktown was hopping, but at least the two block walk back to my hotel from the arena was pretty darn dangerous. So seems like Thunder fans celebrated responsibly. The Thunder themselves celebrated awkwardly. But again, I think it was kind of part of the charm. Last quick note. The last championship locker room I was in was two years ago in Denver. And by the time I left that locker room, that guy, that night, guys, I smelled like every single part of all my clothes, all my. Just into my skin. The combination of cigar smoke, smoke and champagne. And that lasted for like days. It didn't matter how much laundry I did. There were no cigars this time I was actually thankful for cigars. And, and the champagne was not really sprayed that much because it was definitely the tamest celebration I've ever.
- [08:56]
Raja Bell
That. Yeah, that's so interesting. Like, well, that speaks to what you asked me, Logan. Like, first of all, those guys are real young. When you talk about like Kobe, KG, LeBron, what comes to mind there is like real struggle at times for them, you know, like real, like at least in their, you know, Kobe maybe later, you know, when he was younger.
- [09:20]
Howard Beck
You.
- [09:21]
Raja Bell
Know, maybe you don't appreciate it the same way when you've got a decade into the league and you've been let down so many times. Like, not that these guys haven't overcome a lot of stuff and had their own hardships and stuff like that, but it's relatively new to them to your point. Right? And the other thing that strikes me is like Shay, now that you mention it, like in the Post. The post game, like, immediate. Grabbed him to talk about the championship. And what struck me as great as a player as he is is what a lot of people say is like. And I don't want to say this, like, in a negative way, but like, there's. It was kind of dry, right? Like, he's. He's kind of dry, right? Like, and. And so that's probably just who that, you know, that's just who they are. When your star is like that, that's what you're probably going to be like as a team. When your star's got some to him and likes to party and be out, you're gonna have a little bit of that as a team.
- [10:14]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [10:14]
Howard Beck
But also, like I was gonna say, part of this is that, like, this is not a team with big personalities or talkers or whatever. They don't preen. They don't like. And so when you win it all, you're not gonna do the. Yeah. Like, it, like, they weren't shutting up the disbelievers or the non believers or whatever. Like, there was no. There's no chip on their shoulder. There's no attitude. It was just like, we're really good.
- [10:35]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, this is great.
- [10:36]
Howard Beck
We're really professional. Yeah.
- [10:38]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, so cool.
- [10:39]
Howard Beck
We achieved our life dream at age 24.
- [10:42]
Logan Murdoch
Awesome, dude.
- [10:44]
Howard Beck
Here's. Here's the other thing. I'm sitting there typing madly between, like, you know, midnight and one or whatever, and you look up and suddenly, like, Blue Dort's walking through the. The workroom area now. The workroom work room in quotes here. When you get to the finals, the workroom is sometimes just some back of house area that's just like a ton of cinder block and some TVs and some tables and. And power cord. That's it, man. Like, there's no. It's not like some fancy room. It's really just a space that they've blocked off between other spaces, back of house. The players, I don't know where they had been just prior to this, but they were trying to find their way back to wherever they were supposed to go next. And so, like, Lou Dort comes through with a bunch of like, like people trailing behind him. Friends and family, whatever. Shay walks through with the freaking MVP trophy in one hand and his phone cradled in the other and, like a whole trail of like a dozen people behind him. Like, what is happening here? We're sitting, like, this is literally the work room and, and the mvp, the final mvp, is just like kind of like strolling through, trying to fight his way back to another part of the arena. It was just funny. It was just like that just added to kind of the whole, like, we're doing this for the first time and everything. We're just kind of in a daze. We're not sure where we're going, what we're supposed to do next. Just kind of wandering through the press. It was. It was fun.
- [12:01]
Logan Murdoch
I was gonna say, like, they're the. They're like the spurs with a Pinterest page. But I think the, the spurs. Even though where were you when I.
- [12:10]
Howard Beck
Needed you on deadline, Logan? I could have a good line.
- [12:14]
Logan Murdoch
I'm sorry, buddy. No, but, but even the spurs, like, have fun, right? Like this. I remember I was telling Howard this. It. Roger knows. Honorary Spur Roger Bell knows. I was telling Howard this yesterday. We were on the pre. We were talking about what we're going to talk about today. But like, when the spurs lost in 2015 in the first round of the. The Western Conference playoffs to the Clippers, they went on. They took the team bus to Hollywood Boulevard and just found themselves on tmz. That's how hard they were going, right? I don't even think that there's, like, I don't know if this is the culture. Like, I don't know if this is like, you know, these are still pandemic babies, right? Like, I just don't. I don't know what this is. But like, they didn't seem to. I don't know, man. Like, it felt like Howard had a better time with Barkley the other a couple weeks ago, right? Like, and while, you know, speaking like cigars, right?
- [13:12]
Howard Beck
Speaking of smelling like cigar smoke for the next three days, I finally got to wash that shit. By the way, when you're on the road for like three straight weeks and you and like, it's hard to get to laundry. I'm not, I'm not setting it out to do hotel. Like, I had to like sequester these cigar bar clothes in a separate plastic bag in a separate compartment in my suitcase so it wouldn't pollute the rest of it. As I kept bouncing between OKC and Indy.
- [13:36]
Logan Murdoch
You can expense the laundry back.
- [13:39]
Howard Beck
Like, you're supposed to be on the road. Wait, the rule is you're supposed to be on the road for like two weeks. And I like bounced home for like a 16 hour space early in the series. And I thought, like, I'm not. Is it? Do I need.
- [13:49]
Logan Murdoch
Dollinger would have approved this expense. Dude, come on.
- [13:53]
Howard Beck
Yeah, but some bean counter in Stockholm might Have shot me down. It's happening.
- [14:00]
Logan Murdoch
Oh. All right. Let's get this back on the rails. Jesus.
- [14:05]
Howard Beck
Shout out to the bean counters in Stockholm. I love you. Please keep improving all of my expense reports. I got another one coming shortly.
- [14:12]
Logan Murdoch
Hey, next. Next Sweden trip. We got to bring Raja. We got to bring Raja, bro. We got to bring over to Sweden. I'm sure he'll be a legend there.
- [14:20]
Raja Bell
Sweden.
- [14:21]
Howard Beck
Love Stockholm. By the way, last footnote on the aftermath. Because I went to breakfast yesterday in Oklahoma City because I had. I couldn't get out. I couldn't get a flight until like the afternoon. So I had a nice leisurely day downtown. Okc. Who do I see at breakfast?
- [14:35]
Cliff
Who do you see?
- [14:36]
Howard Beck
Mark Dagnaut. Mark Dagnal just chilling with his, like, his high school coach and a high school teammate. You would have thought this was like just another summer day hanging out. You would never known that. Like, so this goes right to the coach as well as the players that were. And he was, you know, people were coming up and congratulating him, taking photos with him and all that. Like, that was cool. But Mark Dagnal did not look like a man who had just been partying all night or anything. He just. He looked like he had just like, you know, maybe finished mowing the lawn and now was having a nice breakfast with his high school coach. Hanging out.
- [15:07]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I would have just sleeped. I would have been headache, knocked sleep.
- [15:12]
Howard Beck
I mean, to be clear, I didn't get breakfast until maybe like 10, 10:30. So it's not like it was early. But still, man would have been knocked still. Yeah, you just won the championship. Like he should. He should have still been like, you.
- [15:23]
Logan Murdoch
Know, that means you Woke up at 8:30, bro. I'm knocked, dude. You're not.
- [15:27]
Howard Beck
And he was there too. And he was definitely there before me. So I'm just like, yeah, bro, come on. This. This is a very tame.
- [15:34]
Logan Murdoch
You and Raja had more fun at the pre. The pre live pod in San Francisco.
- [15:39]
Raja Bell
Dude, I had exponentially more fun than that on his official visit to Texas.
- [15:45]
Logan Murdoch
Oh, shit.
- [15:46]
Raja Bell
Yeah. No, I mean, like, yeah, like no 8:30 wake up calls on Sunday morning, my boy. That wasn't happening. Yeah, you're supposed to be getting it. I just. That's just fascinating to me. Like, it's neither here nor there, but like, you know, how. How far away from the way our generation of player, you know, enjoyed themselves this generation is. It's.
- [16:08]
Logan Murdoch
I don't know though, bro, because if Anthony Edwards only won the championship, if Anthony Edwards would have won a championship. I guarantee you that.
- [16:18]
Howard Beck
The Nuggets went hard. I don't know about the Celtics because the Celtics are kind of built like the Thunder, right? Like, really sedate kind of personalities. And maybe not like, I don't. I don't remember.
- [16:27]
Logan Murdoch
I'm not going to a kickback thrown by Jalen Brown. It's not happening. I'm not going to a party thereby doesn't seem like a good time.
- [16:33]
Howard Beck
I don't remember last year's footage with that.
- [16:38]
Logan Murdoch
Anyways, are we anything about the Pacers really quickly? Like, what do the Pacers do this summer with Halle? Just toward. This is not for you, Raj. It's fine. You just sit this one out, buddy. You go on the other side of the court.
- [16:52]
Raja Bell
I'm gonna doodle. I'm gonna doodle for a second.
- [16:54]
Logan Murdoch
Doodle for a bit. I feel like the Pacers are big Celtics vibes from the Pacers this off season. Like, I don't know. What do they do?
- [17:02]
Howard Beck
Like, gap year kind of thing, you mean?
- [17:04]
Logan Murdoch
I guess so, but, like, I don't know because, you know, I don't even know if you can have a gap year in the apron era. We're going to talk about this with the Drew Holiday trade, but, like, you have to pivot really fast in this league.
- [17:16]
Howard Beck
Like, it's tempting to look at what they have done at times without Halliburton, including in game seven, and go like menace team. They're. They're about their system, they're about ball movement and, like, you know, you could ride TJ McConnell here and there and Nemhardt here and there. But. But no, like, you're not. You're not back in the mix for the Eastern Conference finals without Halliburton and gonna miss the whole. So it is a gap year almost by definition. The difference is, like, this is a younger team. Like, you don't have. I don't. They're not as capped out as the Celtics. They're not as. Like, they don't have to take steps backward. They do need to resign. Miles Turner. But, like, the Pacers just got here. Halliburton's young. Most of the. Corey's young. I think they're fine. Like, it sucks. Like, it. It sucks. Absolutely beyond belief happened. I can't help but think about the fact that, like, to the Pacers credit, they extended the series, but if they had just folded in game six, Game seven never happened. I hate to say, but, like, you can't help but think about the what ifs and other paths that could have unfolded. I think the Pacers are still a really good team next year, but obviously they're not in the mix. I don't think the Eastern Conference finals and or for the conference title. I don't think you're going out and making a move like, oh, can we get a stopgap to oh, like nobody's replacing Tyrese Halliburton. That dude's unique. He's the heart of the team. So I don't know. I, I, I, they have a lot to think about. They're smarter than I am. Kevin Pritchard in that front office, figure it out. But I think most likely the way you look at this, exactly what it like looks for a really good team that just had a breakthrough season that nobody expected, we ourselves did not expect. And we know what we've got going to hold it together and next season we'll battle, do what we can.
- [19:03]
Logan Murdoch
Right, Roger?
- [19:04]
Raja Bell
Yep.
- [19:11]
Logan Murdoch
All right, let's talk about the Drew Holiday trade. I was really like fretting this podcast like, what are we going to talk about that's new. What are we going to talk about that's, that's like, you know, fresh. And then the good old Celtics leak, a trade that they're trading Drew Holiday to the Portland Trail Blazers for Anthony Simons and two second round draft picks. I, I think I'll start with Howard on this one. I think that this is like something that we're going to see more and more. This is why analysts and observers and everyone you talk to around the league say this is going to be a crazy offseason filled with crazy, curious trades. Just because there's a lot of contracts that have been grandfathered into this apron era. Drew Holliday is one of them. There's another one. You know, Kristas Porzingis has a big deal, a lot of them on the Boston Celtics who have an expensive roster. But you're going to see these kind of like these little, these pick these, these trades where it's like, okay, and Jrue Holiday seems to be one we knew he was probably going to be get traded, especially after Tatum gets hurt. But for Anthony Simons, stop. That's not a bad return. I don't know how he's going to be defensively culture shattered, but he's going to be a good scorer that can play alongside Jalen. What do you, what do you think about the deal?
- [20:33]
Howard Beck
Listen, we knew, we knew all this was coming. Even without the Jason Tatum heely's injury, even without the quote unquote gap Year assumptions. You knew that the Celtics, because of second apron issues and cap luxury tax, everything like sale of the team, you knew they were going to pair back. So you knew that Brew Holiday, Chris Epsingis, maybe others would be in play and there's probably more to come. The question was always going to be, what are you getting back? How are you managing? Like, how are you scaling down the salary structure of your payroll while also staying competitive and keeping yourself in a position to be in contention again when Tatum's healthy? Like, this was efforty. Simons is on, on an expiring contract. So did they acquire him because they think, oh, this is a good young piece to add to our core when we make another run, or do they acquire him because he's an expiring contract and they're just going to let him walk, walk away at the end of the season? Maybe they're going to flip him in the meantime. I don't know. I don't know. This thing happened on my very, very, very long drive back from LaGuardia late last night and I'm still, I like, I have barely gotten dived in. So I will say, you know, Drew Holiday's got like two more years left after next season, including a player option 32 million, 34.8 and 37 million and 27. 28. Whereas Simons is making like 27 or something. I think that that's a part of this.
- [22:08]
Logan Murdoch
What do you think of the fit Raja? When you have a guy that is an institutional piece for the Celtics and Drew Holiday and then you bring him back with, he's a good score, you know, has done some good things, but, you know, he's not a. Anthony is not a culture setter for Boston. Right. Like, he's not, it seems like a, it seems like a very, if you're the Celtics, a, a hard trade off to have. But what do you think of that fit in the meantime?
- [22:39]
Raja Bell
Well, I mean, you know, they're in a situation where they got to make some tough calls, period. Right. So, you know, you're, you're going to have to part with, with something somewhere that you ideally don't want to part with for all the reasons Howard just talked about in terms of length of contract and then flexibility to, to get out of it. You know, it makes sense in those regards. I'd also just say, like in a, in a weird way, you weren't winning a championship this year anyway without, without Jason Tatum in my estimation. And so, you know, the leadership that Drew brings and the intangibles that he bring to get you over the hump in that championship chase, I guess, aren't maybe as important. Like, I'm just spitballing here because I too, like, I wasn't tapped in. Tapped in like that. But, like, you know, like, you're not going to. Those things aren't going to be 100% necessary in a year where we don't have to have this championship. Right. Like, we'd love to have it, but it's really expensive. It becomes punitive, and we're not winning anyway this year. And then Anthony, while he might not do that, you do have a void in your scoring and a dude who, like, you're, You're. Your guy is gone. So, like, Jalen. Jalen's stepping into that role. And who's going to be the number two dude that can go get you a bucket? So you get a look at a younger player who, who, who might be able to do that for you. Right. With the flexibility that if it, if it doesn't work and there's a problem with it, we're out after a year. Plus, we were going to have to make some moves anyway. So, like, I don't. It's neither here nor there for me, but, like, I don't hate it. Like, something was going to have to be done.
- [24:18]
Logan Murdoch
This is a blockbuster deal, Howard.
- [24:25]
Howard Beck
People need to stop putting that. I, I can't remember who I saw within the last 24 hours. Go. Another blockbuster after the Bane and Durant. The Bain deal was not a blockbuster. This one, certainly Durant, you can take it. I just wonder like, what the Celtics look like assuming that Simons is staying and then there's not another maneuver here and I don't know, you know, like, is Porzingis going next? Whatever. Like, the, the defensive backbone of this team was really important. Right. And you've already lost Tatum, who's good defender, and Drew, who's an elite defender, still got Derek White moment. Simons is not a defender. I, I just like, the personality of the team is already changing and it's just going to be a really interesting stretch for the Celtics as they navigate this weird, you know, whatever you want to call it. They're gap year. They're interregnum to roll out a. An SAT word.
- [25:18]
Logan Murdoch
Like what. Can you spell that, Ron? Because I can't.
- [25:24]
Howard Beck
Like, it's like a, you know, it's a pause. Like a little.
- [25:28]
Logan Murdoch
Use it in a sentence, please. Oh, you kind of already did, huh?
- [25:30]
Howard Beck
Yeah, I wouldn't knew. I don't know why that popped into my head. Yeah. As I said, guys, been a long.
- [25:36]
Logan Murdoch
Few mid alert.
- [25:41]
Howard Beck
But there's this, there's this, like this. What is this season for the Celtics like? We are, we are just now starting to learn what it might be. Right. And this is just step one. I don't know what's coming. We got a lot of off season to go here. But they're, they're, their core personality has already changed and their core skill set has already changed. Simons is a great scorer, not a defender, much, much younger. Are you just trying to get younger? Are you just trying to fix your cap? Who? I, I don't, I don't know. I don't know what this.
- [26:15]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, we'll see. The last thing I'll say on this because we really all want to just talk about Kevin Durant right now. The last thing I'll say on this is the NBA is getting exactly what he want. They want with this, right? They're getting player movement. There's going to be so many people that are teams that are going to try to gut their roster to help, you know, make a deal to get Zingas. I don't think he's going to be back next year. Derek White isn't going to be back next year. But you're going to see this a lot this off season with all these expensive rosters and like Howard said, getting the book straight. And so it's, I think this is going to be an interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting summer. So we'll see what happens. But I just want to thank Kevin Durant and his representation first and foremost. The reason being, and me and Howard talked about this yesterday. Thanks so much for making this trade happen in June as opposed to August or some shit. We really appreciate it. Thanks to all the teams involved, all the executives, everybody involved. We really appreciate it. That being said, Raja. Kevin Durant to the Houston Rockets for Jalen Green. Dylan brooks, the number 10 pick in this year's draft. Five second round picks. What do you think of this for both sides?
- [27:38]
Raja Bell
I would love it for Houston. Yeah, I think if you could get Kevin Durant and not have to part with Sengun or Amen Thompson or Fred Van Vliet for that matter. Like, I, I think you, I think you're good. Like I, you know, Jalen Green led them in scoring and he's, he's a good young player. But for a team that was, what were they, second in the west this year and knocking on the door, we saw, we saw his youth play itself out in the Playoffs, right When, like, when they needed him to be there. Like, they did not have that guy. So, you know, obviously, Kevin Durant, is that in spades. But. But getting. But getting Kevin Durant just. Or a piece like Kevin Durant to add to kind of that nucleus without having to give up those pieces, I thought was dope. I actually don't hate it for the Suns. I mean, you could. I've heard people argue that, like, they could have gotten more. But like, we had spoken on the POD about, and you guys had talked about the market not being what people necessarily think it should be for Kevin Durant at this stage in his career. So I'm not mad at it. Like, Jalen Green, again, like, he was the leading scorer on the number two team in the Western Conference last year. Like, there are some flaws. He's a young player, but. But getting better. I'm a Dylan Brooks fan. Like, I think. I think he adds a level of backbone and toughness. Anywhere he goes now. It comes with some shit sometimes, but, you know, I think you need those guys on your roster. I would always keep a guy like that on my roster, you know, and then they're able to, you know, they get some picks back, you get some. You get some ammunition. You get a. You get a top 10 this year and then some more ammunition. By the way, a second round. I didn't hate it. I love it for Houston. I didn't hate it for the Phoenix.
- [29:18]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, let's. Let's go the Kevin Durant angle first. I do want to talk about Phoenix because I do have some thoughts on them, but I'm happy about this trade for Kevin. I think this is a really. I wrote about it yesterday on the ringer.com make sure you guys go check that out. I think this is a really good reset for him considering, you know, just the decisions that he's made over the last few years in terms of teams like they've been. Have gone down horribly and, you know, you put them with a good nucleus and a team that actually needs them. I do have some reservations with the leadership aspect. If he's going now, he's going to be a number one leader in that locker room, and he's going to have to figure out just, you need a certain type of personality for the team like that. And I guess you can make the argument that Emma Udoka will be that. That type of leader. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. But the thing that's always been with Durant is he's always been supremely gifted on the basketball Court in a way that you kind of need him to be that type of leader. And he just hasn't been that type of leader. And because of the gravity that he has, he can either bring the locker room up or down. And the last couple of stops, he's done the latter. He's brought the. The he in tandem with a lot of different things. The locker room just hasn't been what you would want it to be for a championship team. So there's going to be. Have to be some soul searching on that point for the Rockets, no matter, I think, who the leadership is, because he's such a big piece of. And that's. That's kind of what the first thoughts that I got going into this and his fit there, Raj.
- [31:05]
Raja Bell
Yeah, that. That's cool. I think that, you know, Howard, great point on Fred Van Vliet, because he's, he's, you know, like, he's got some shit to him too. But I think a lot of the Kevin Durant piece teams can be led and follow the lead of like an in locker room leader. In a lot of instances, you'd love to have that, like a really strong personality who's one of your best players. That just drives culture. But in other instances, it can be driven by. Can be driven by leadership. You know, front office can have a very, very strong culture that they build and that permeates through the building. And in other instances, it can be the coach. And Ime Udoka is certainly a dude that drives culture. So I would bet you like that in this situation, Kevin Durant as the leader or at times, you know, the perception of the lack of leadership isn't going to be an issue at all. I think they're uniquely equipped with IME in. In that. In that. In that seat. And Fred Van Vliet, that he hops in there and he's fine. I mean, who was leading it this year? You're like, jalen Green wasn't your culture driver, was he? Like, it was.
- [32:16]
Logan Murdoch
No, I think Ma Udoka's team, like.
- [32:18]
Raja Bell
That'S what I'm saying.
- [32:19]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:20]
Howard Beck
But I also think that's why they got Van Vliet when they got him. Remember, like, when they were. When they first brought him in, it was, they're young, they got a lot of talents, a lot of recent lottery picks, whatever. They need a culture shift and that. I think IME and Van Vliet came around. I think it was the same summer, right? And you know, you like having that extension of the coach on the court. You know, both because he's the point guard in this, in this instance, but also because like another kind of like no nonsense gonna tell you what's up kind of, kind of personality. And so I, I think that's great. And I also think like Durant is like, we've seen a lot of guys like this over the decades, right? He'll be the best player on your team and he's a culture setter in the way he plays and he's. But he's the quote unquote, lead by example type. Which, by which I mean, if you're leading by example, you're not actually a leader. Like, it's fine that you're the first dude in the gym, it's fine that you work hard, it's fine that you do everything you're supposed to do and get your stuff done. It's fine that you play the right way or whatever else. Any of those other descriptions you want to put on having a best player who upholds certain standards that everybody else has to follow, that's fine. But we know what we mean when we say leader. We mean the guy who can actually get in guys faces and tell you when you're out of line or tell you when you're not moving the ball or whatever. And Durant's actually the kind of guy who actually I think benefits sometimes from having one of those guys next to him remind him when to do the right thing. Because when you're to that talented, sometimes you forget that you have teammates. And I think Durant's been a really selfless star for most of his career, but everybody needs that reminder sometimes. So whether that's the coach with, with ime, whether it's Van Vliet, you know, like I saw versions of this like even with like Carmelo Anthony's not at Durant's level, but Carmelo was a really great scorer who was at his best when he had either Jason Kidd or Chauncey Billups as his point guard. Guys who were like really strong personalities, strong leaders who knew the game were super smart and would and could, could call you out when and everybody else too for that matter. Not just so I think it's a good situation for him also like at this stage of his career, you know, he's turning 37 in September. Haiti's still been pretty productive, but like you don't want to be the night in, night out, carry the team guy. And they're better off that he can be the closer. But they've got sengun, can score and you know, Van Bleed. Amen. Thompson obviously is. Is just growing by leaps and bounds, and I think ultimately becomes their best player after Rant retires. I'm curious to see how KD decides what the balance is between fitting in or being the guy. Right. Like, how much do you want to blend versus how much do you want to lead in terms of even. Just, like, how much of the offensive load you take on? Because he knows his body, he knows he's getting toward the end, and I'm sure he can recognize that. Amen Thompson is going to be an absolute stud in this league. We thought the Phoenix was going to be like, the last chapter, but now, like, okay, this is the last chapter. I mean, God forbid there's another trade. I don't think so. I think this is probably where KD retires. What do you want out of that last stop now that you.
- [35:20]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, And I mean, like, one of the things that me and Howard have talked about and me and Raj have talked about is like, KD is one of them players that deserves this at the end of his career, right? And I think over the last few years, you've seen some of his peers kind of get at least a chance, one last chance to, you know, get to the mountaintop, right? LeBron has Luca, Steph has Jimmy Butler, and, you know, they've seen that success over the last five years that a guy like KD and his talent should be. Right. This is the stage that he should be at. Right? And he hasn't gotten to that stage for a myriad of reasons. Right? You talk about what happened with Kyrie and what happened with James Hard in Brooklyn and how that didn't go well. And then we already have kind of lived through what's going on in Phoenix. And to your leadership point, Howard, you're right on track when you talk about him needing somebody that's hard, Hard nose beside him, because he didn't have that in Phoenix. And you kind of saw where the locker room went, like, Chris Paul leaving that Phoenix, that Phoenix team when he did was, like, really catastrophic in that time, Right? Like, there was no one to kind of galvanize that locker room, because D Book is the same way as KD is. He needs somebody that's going to, you know, shift culture. But I'm happy for it. Ultimately, you know, I want to see a guy like KD just. I mean, I don't know how far Houston is going to go, but the west is wide open, right? Like, I think that they can make some noise. We'll see what happens, how big though Raja is the growth of Amin Thompson, right? Like, he still needs for them to kind of take that next step. He needs to become whatever, you know, platitude of players that he's supposed to be. But, like, what does he need to do next year?
- [37:13]
Raja Bell
We need to see from him, first of all, you. I want to go back to the Devin Booker and Kevin Durant thing. Like, you. You can get away with that, but you need your coach to be that dude. Then you need him to be the driving force of culture and leadership and have the strong hand and be just a. A stud in that way, right? And they. They couldn't find that with those two, right? So, like, you know, then you have to have it on the court. But let's. Emin Thompson, it's. This is a really good situation for him, as I see it, because he doesn't take the step next year into the dude that I think he can be. That doesn't happen over a summer, right? Like, so, you know, I think as he was this past year, and as close as they got to having real legs in the Western Conference race, playoff race, with who he was this year, adding Kevin Durant's skill set to that, you're already better. If he gets better over the summer, just marginally better, one summer better, then you have a shot even in the Western Conference. Now, what we don't want to do is stunt his growth in any way, shape or form because this is a long play with him, right? Like the player we're thinking we might see maybe two, three years down the line when he's mastered, like, all of these different areas of the game to go along with all of the cool shit he's already got. So as an organization and as kd, you know, you got to kind of be mindful of stunting his growth long term, right? Like, we still want to give him an opportunity to explore some of these areas in game, but I think it's good for him because the pressure doesn't fall to him this year to have to be that in a way that the Rockets would need him to be it without KD to be successful. So with KD there, it's not unlike the Luca situation. I mean, the, you know, the. The Cooper flag situation, going to a place like, like Dallas, where you have these dudes who can do all of that. And so I can just continue to be this great talent, this winning talent, this explorative, like, talent, and develop into exactly what I should be in the time that it. That that is appropriate for that to happen. So I think it's a really good fit and I do think at men. Thompson. Yes. The upside is extremely high. The, the, the ultimate upside of that was not going to be reached over the course of one summer. So I don't think this stunts it at all, really.
- [39:36]
Logan Murdoch
Also, man, like, they didn't give up Jabari Smith Jr too. Like, this is empty roster, dude. Like, they're, they're going to be really good. I don't know what they're going to be. I just know I'm going to be excited to watch them play. Right. Like, they're going to be really fun to watch.
- [39:50]
Howard Beck
Part of the reason, yeah, just part of the reason why this is such a great deal for them is that they got Durant while still keeping a ton of first round picks that they've gotten, including of Phoenix still without giving up any of their best players. Like, I know Jalen Green was like, you know, leading scorer, but he's not, he was not their best player. He was not one of the most important players. He was among their high profile players. He was probably the most dispensable. I think they might miss. Gonna sound like I'm just being dick now. They're going to miss Dylan Brooks more than Jalen, especially because you.
- [40:23]
Raja Bell
What's that negative.
- [40:25]
Howard Beck
They will.
- [40:28]
Raja Bell
He's our leading scorer, Howard. Like, I feel, I hear the way you feel about him, but like, yeah, you don't inefficient.
- [40:33]
Howard Beck
And they had to bench him in fourth quarters, playoff games.
- [40:35]
Raja Bell
Raja, I'm not going to argue with you on this, Howard. You don't like your best scorer. People are your best scorers because the team recognizes he's the best scorer, not because he takes all the shots. Like there's a, there's a deference that comes in a locker room. Like if, if I'm the coldest motherfucker on the planet, I'm not about to watch you go out there and shoot all the shots and lead us and score. And so what I'm saying to you is, at least in some part, people on that roster.
- [40:57]
Logan Murdoch
But what if you swapped him for Kevin Durant?
- [40:59]
Howard Beck
Yeah, they replaced him with kd. So, like, it's not.
- [41:03]
Raja Bell
Well, that's not what. That's. Of course Kevin Durant is better than that, but like that, that is, that is a play. He's a, he is a good player. Like, he's not a finished product, but that's a very good player. Now you could argue with me that Dylan Brooks, if you Bring Kevin Durant in there and put him on a team. Would you miss Dylan Brooks on the Kevin Durant led Rockets more or Jalen Green?
- [41:24]
Howard Beck
They're going to miss Dylan Brooks more. They're not going to miss Jalen Green.
- [41:29]
Logan Murdoch
I couldn't wait to get rid of. They couldn't wait to get rid of Jalen Green.
- [41:32]
Raja Bell
I just, I disagree. I disagree.
- [41:34]
Howard Beck
Okay?
- [41:34]
Raja Bell
He's a, he's a, he's a. Look, okay, I don't. Look, I don't like to hear anybody. Jalen Green's a basketball player, bro. He's a good basketball player.
- [41:42]
Howard Beck
Yeah, no, he is.
- [41:43]
Raja Bell
He's got shit to grow on. He's got to get better. But, like, I'm gonna give him his motherfucking flowers on being the leading scorer on a second, on a second place team in the Western Conference? Like that's gonna happen.
- [41:52]
Howard Beck
It's fine. I get it. He's a volume scorer. He's not efficient, and they couldn't trust him in quarters. It's a short term fix.
- [42:01]
Raja Bell
So was Kevin Durant until he got to the Golden State warriors and won a championship. Like, he might not have been inefficient, but he didn't win. Like, we can't, we can't.
- [42:09]
Howard Beck
Listen, I'm not comparing, I'm not comparing Oklahoma City era, Kevin Durant, dude, Jalen Green.
- [42:14]
Raja Bell
But, but Howard, look, you're. You're kind of falling into the category to do is. I used to argue with in front offices, dog, like, analytics be damned. Like, there's a level of basketball player that goes out there and my man can hoop. I'm not going to argue with him that like, like Kevin Durant is clearly. I'm a fucking Kevin Durant, Stan. Like, yes, but like, trying to make it sound like he wasn't worth what he was worth to Houston last year, I think is a little disrespectful to him.
- [42:39]
Howard Beck
Okay. As we move to the Phoenix side of this, though, Raja, you take him and you put him next to Devin Booker. And now I'm worried about, like, like, if I'm the Suns, I'll just say this. And again, that's your team. And I think you're. You're already going glass half full here on the trade for them because most people have hated this for the sun side of it. Do you like Devin Booker and Jalen Green together? And if I were to say, as I have said probably on the phone with Logan yesterday, I'm moving Jalen Green as quickly as I can and flipping him for Something else. Are you disagreeing or do you think that that is actually a rational, logical pairing?
- [43:19]
Raja Bell
I'm fine with that. I said I didn't hate it for the Suns because you had to move Kevin Durant, you weren't moving Devin Booker. And if you had to move Kevin Durant and you're able to get a young scorer like Jalen Green, a piece like Dylan Brooks and a bunch of picks, like, if the market isn't there for him, I said I didn't hate it for him, but I'm not arguing. If I can flip that and get something that fits better with Devin Booker, I'm fine with it.
- [43:44]
Howard Beck
How's the fit? Yeah, but that's the thing. How's the fit? Because I don't, I don't like.
- [43:49]
Raja Bell
Yeah, I, I'm not saying that it's a great fit. Like, those are two dudes that like to have the ball in their hands. Like, I think. I think Devin Booker's way further along, obviously, in his arc as a, As a professional. And, and. And I don't love the natural fit of it. Right. But that's not what I was arguing previously.
- [44:06]
Howard Beck
No, I get.
- [44:06]
Raja Bell
Arguing was the value that he had to Houston. Right. But yeah, you're telling me they can flip him and get something that's more, that's more complementary with D book as a player and in terms of like, as an, as a. As a natural, like, fit in terms of arc of windows and whatnot. Like, I'm fine with that.
- [44:25]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, I, I think that Phoenix doesn't necessarily have a plan here because, like, obviously they got the 10th pick and all that stuff, but they're not winning a championship with this roster, which is what Matt Ishbia says he wants to do for Devin Booker. And the only way to win a championship right now as, as they're currently constructed is to break everything down and build and build from within and then build up a championship roster. I just don't. I feel like Matt Ishby and he's gotten a lot of heat on this pod, but I feel like he is the guy that. And we all know this person that you tell him it's. This isn't the right play. Like, experienced people are telling him, yo, this isn't the right play. And he's doubling and tripling down to prove to everybody that he can make this happen when the people that are telling him are right. And I don't know where this goes because I think he's past new owner syndrome. I think it's just like Right now, Howard, I just think it's an ego play, man.
- [45:38]
Howard Beck
Listen, this is, this is just a kind of a cleanup on aisle seven of the last. A couple of screw ups, right? Like you're not, you're not getting back the value for Durant that you shipped out to get Durant. You're never recouping what you got on the Beal side of it. And you're stuck with Beal. You're just stuck, period. And so this is just like step one toward trying to get unstuck. That's all this is. The Suns are not moving the ball forward here. They're simply trying to get unstuck. You pissed off KD by trying to trade him without talking to him at midseason. Now you have to trade him. You're, you're, you're already out all the draft picks that you sent out to get him in the first place. There's no upside here other than we need to get our books back in order. We need to give ourselves flexibility again. We need to hope there's, there's some way of, of you're not saving face. You're not even being competitive. Like, this is still not. I don't even know this is even a play in team yet. And Beal is. You're stuck with Beal. They should be trading Devin Booker. Devin Booker says he doesn't want to go. They say they don't want to trade him. Fine. Like, I get it. That's probably not happening and so I shouldn't waste that much time on it. But the best path back to functionality as a franchise is trading Booker because this, the package you got back from Durant did not make you better. Maybe they can flip Jalen Green for, for pieces that are better fitting with Book. You're not trading Beal because he's basically untradeable. And if you do trade him, it's going to be for negative value. You. There is no short term path back to respectability here with the team you have and with the payroll as it is. Your best way out of this is to actually trade Devin Booker, the one guy who can get you a ton back and put you on the path back to, to like a functional roster. But as long as that's not happening, the rest of us is almost irrelevant. They're not going anywhere, The Suns are.
- [47:24]
Logan Murdoch
And reputationally, I want to add to this before we get to Mailbag, I think reputationally, how they treated Kevin is going to reverberate for them for sure. Like you talk about the trade and the blindsidedness, like, the way you win in the NBA is stars. And stars see how you treat other stars. And I think that that's something that. That's going to follow Matt Ishbia because for. For a minute, man, and follow the front office and the Suns for a minute, because you have to. No matter even if you trade him, you have to treat your players right or to a certain standard. And I know that there was back and forth, but you made a commitment to kd. You got to at least do right by him in this way. And I think that they've just. That they have fumbled on that. And I think that the rest of the league is watching this not just from, like, how you treated a player, but just like, you just get your shit together. And the Suns, we all know this. Me and Roger talk about this all the time. The Suns have an incredible fan base, has a really great basketball culture, and knows what winning takes, what it takes to win. And you come up in here with all your bread and stuff like that, and then kind of fumble out the gate. And I think the fan base at first sees it as, like, hell, yeah. You know, you're wanting to win and you're ready to put resources around it. But, like, it's. The honeymoon phase is over. Like, I think ISHB has a lot that he needs to prove over the next few years. This is a start to that. But, like, there's a long road back to where he wants to get to. So we'll see what happens. For 50 minutes in. We haven't seen our guy Cliff, and we're going to change that now. Cliff, what's up, buddy? How we doing, family? Are you doing okay in the heat, brother?
- [49:14]
Cliff
Yeah, I'm chilling. I'm chilling, bro. Come on, man. I'm doing.
- [49:16]
Logan Murdoch
That was Juneteenth weekend. You'd invite me, Raj, and Howard out to D.C. with you?
- [49:20]
Cliff
Come on, man. What you mean? It was cool, man. DC was.
- [49:23]
Logan Murdoch
DC was Raja. He had so much fun. He got stuck in an elevator. That's how much fun he had.
- [49:27]
Raja Bell
Oh, that's a nightmare.
- [49:29]
Howard Beck
Who took that photo clip?
- [49:30]
Raja Bell
How long were you.
- [49:31]
Cliff
Yo, so we was. We was going to. So there's a spot called park in D.C. and we were going up to the third floor. Cause that's where. Or like, little table thing. He was.
- [49:42]
Raja Bell
You had a table?
- [49:43]
Cliff
I didn't have the table. It was just like, one of my friend's friends is like a content creator, so he just wanted to record, like, the Night that was or whatever. Whatever his Juneteenth weekend was going to be. So we got stuck in the elevator. You had the little phone drawing out with the. You know, I'm talking about the little handheld joint where it keeps the camera still, keeps the phone still. So it was one of those situations. But, yeah, we was in the elevator for a little hot second. We got out of there. Luckily, they reset the elevator at park. You had to walk up three floors, and we had a good night, man. So it was a good time in.
- [50:10]
Raja Bell
D.C. how long were you in the elevator?
- [50:13]
Cliff
Like, I don't know, 10, 15.
- [50:15]
Raja Bell
Oh, that's light.
- [50:16]
Cliff
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was. It wasn't too bad. Luckily, they didn't go up, so we didn't get stuck, like, in the middle between floors or whatnot. That would have been even worse. But, yeah, they just reset the thing. He was cool, walked up, had a good night. You know what I mean? Had some fun, you know, had a good time, Raj, you know how that be.
- [50:33]
Raja Bell
I do know how that goes. Good for you, bro.
- [50:35]
Logan Murdoch
Did you have a better time than the Oklahoma City Thunder.
- [50:41]
Raja Bell
Man?
- [50:42]
Cliff
Leave them young boys alone, man. They just want to go home, kick it, play their games, have fun.
- [50:47]
Logan Murdoch
Bible verses.
- [50:48]
Cliff
Yeah, like, they don't need. They don't need to be outside drinking or whatnot, doing things that, you know.
- [50:53]
Logan Murdoch
There isn't an outside in Oklahoma City, to be fair.
- [50:56]
Cliff
There's an outside. There's an outside everywhere, bro. You can't tell me, but by the.
- [51:00]
Howard Beck
Way, by the way, I can't remember who sent it to me, but somebody on Blue sky did send me a map of the parade route to re. Emphasize the fact that there is plenty of square footage there for them to have a decent sized parade without ending up. So thank you for whoever said that to me. It's a.
- [51:18]
Logan Murdoch
It's.
- [51:19]
Howard Beck
It's a good run. It's a good run.
- [51:20]
Logan Murdoch
Oklahoma City, where everybody gets home in five minutes after the biggest parade in the state history.
- [51:26]
Cliff
You can't even celebrate after the game either.
- [51:28]
Howard Beck
I just want, for the. For the record, anybody who's now getting annoyed at this, now, it's. It's Logan making fun of, not me. Now, to direct all the irony.
- [51:37]
Logan Murdoch
Hey, hey, Howard. It's actually the biggest state capital in the country, or one of them, so you shut the hell up. Anyways, Cliff, what's. What's the first question?
- [51:45]
Cliff
All right, this is playing injured from Ziad Ahmad Parker. Hi, guys. I want to know from Raja, what's his take on playing injured like what happened? What Hal Burton did. I mean, biggest game of his career for sure, and I'd probably do it as well. But, yeah, is it worth. Worth it in the long term? Love the show and the energy. Great group of guys that Logan brings together so well. Kind regards, Zayad Ahmad Parker.
- [52:11]
Raja Bell
This is a. This is a tough one for me because, you know, having played through a torn calf, right, it's going to come off very hypocritical, you know, and when you're in it and like, Halle put out, whatever he put out about, he'd do it all over again, like, given the opportunity to try to win for the city, like, that's. That's genuine, man. That's the way you feel. Like. You feel like you've let everyone down when you get injured, even though you don't control that, you feel like you've let your team down. You feel like you've let the city down, your coaches, the organization, everybody. And so, you know, the champion in you, like, the warrior in you wants to get out there and go and give it. Give it everything you have. Then when I stepped away from it, and I remember, you know, the first time I really felt like that was watching kd. And I referenced this the other day. I was sitting with Texas's general manager at this official visit, and he was asking me some questions, and I said, yeah, when Kevin Durant, when he had that calf strain, I was begging him. Like, no one was. You know, he wasn't listening to what we were saying, or no one in Golden State was either. But I was with another company at the time. I was like, don't go out there and do it. Do not go out there and do it. And I was saying the same to Halle this time because it's. It's just. It's not. It's not worth that. Like, it's just not. It's just not worth that. And I say all that to say that at some point, you know, I tried to fool our medical team, right? Like, and I was able to do that. Like, I was able to go and get acupuncture and different kind of treatments over the course of three days that basically shut the nerves off in my lower leg. So when they were putting me through all the tests that they were kind of using their eyeball to figure out whether I was good enough to play or not, the pain wasn't there, so I could fool them a little bit, right? And that's what we'll try to do. But it's. It's. It's your organization's job to kind of protect them from themselves. Right? Like, and even if they can fool medical, then it falls to, like the executives to, to make those calls in a way that are responsible. And I get it. Like, you're in a one game scenario there, right? You've come like, you're 99.9% of the way home. Like Kevin Durant might have been 99 point. What was it? Seven? Did it. Was he in game seven as well?
- [54:31]
Logan Murdoch
It was like five, right?
- [54:33]
Raja Bell
So maybe a fractionally less. So that's, that's an incredibly difficult call to make. And I respect, I respect that. Like, I don't envy that. But, man, those lower leg pulls, if you're telling me it's a pulled groin, a pulled hamstring, a pulled adductor, you know what I mean? Like any of those. But when you start messing with that calf, which is directly related in that kinetic chain to that Achilles, I hope that boys start looking at that now and saying, yeah, I can't fucking go out there and do that.
- [55:03]
Howard Beck
Should the team have stopped him? Should somebody else raja, like, because you, you just said it, you were able to fool your medical staff back in the day, maybe that you'd have a harder time doing that with all the technology they got today, right? But, like, shouldn't somebody else be stepping him? Like, we know that a strained calf can lead to a ruptured Achilles. No, you can't play.
- [55:22]
Raja Bell
That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying, Howard. Like, because, and in fairness to like, the people that I fooled, you didn't have a litany of pulled, of torn Achilles recently, right? And you didn't have any. That you pointed to, like, calf strain, game later, torn Achilles. Like, there was no, there was nothing to suggest that at the time. It's out there now.
- [55:44]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah. And also, like, it's funny, Nico Harrison got a straight for this too. I saw on social media because of him reportedly trying to rush Luka dodges back from a calf injury this season, or at least using it as. Using that as, as a reason to be mad at him for the trade. But it's. Calf injuries are tricky, right? Because on the surface you're like, it's just a calf, dude. Like, relax. But like you said, it's on the kinetic chain and someone who lived every day of that KD return, it was just nauseating, just all of the updates and it was very clear. And I kept getting a flashback, it was very clear that KD shouldn't have Played for the rest of that series. And I know why. Right. Like, on the surface, yes, you shouldn't play on a. On a. On a strained calf. But Roger knows this. There's so many factors that's in play. Right. Especially when you are the guy on a roster in a stage like the NBA Finals. Right. And so many legacies are on the line. But I remember when the calf injury first happened. I believe it's when it first happened, right? I think it was when I saw. Was it game two Howard or Houston? No, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. I'm talking about Halliburton. Was it game.
- [57:00]
Howard Beck
Oh, sorry, too.
- [57:01]
Logan Murdoch
When the first. When the. When the calf injury happened, he had.
- [57:05]
Howard Beck
He. He had. I think he had, like, an ankle thing first. And then it was like. And then he said. When he was asked about it, he said they were separate injuries because the calf thing, like these were. He limped away from Game 2 in Oklahoma, and people noticed it as he was leaving the arena.
- [57:22]
Logan Murdoch
And.
- [57:22]
Howard Beck
But that was a. What. He said it was a different injury by the time the calf thing happened, which was, I think, game three or four. And he was asked to clarify. He said it was. I don't know, man. And we know how this goes. Like, one thing can lead to the next.
- [57:37]
Logan Murdoch
And then game five, he was really nursing that calf, and I was like, man, he. Is he. Are we sure he should be playing? Right?
- [57:43]
Raja Bell
Right.
- [57:43]
Logan Murdoch
Because he.
- [57:44]
Howard Beck
Right, Bobby. He didn't make a shot. He was like, oh, he couldn't move.
- [57:47]
Logan Murdoch
And he tripped and fell in like this in a similar way. And it did. It just didn't look good. Like, if I'm the Pacers. And again, I. We ain't shit. We're just, you know, three. Three or four schmucks talking. But if I'm them, I see what happens in game five. What me and Howard saw with our own eyes, because we were in the building. It looks like a guy that. This was like a ticking time bomb for his Achilles. It looked like that if you watched him play. And that's why, like, I remember watching. I was not surprised at all. He. Jordan's achilles in Game 7. As soon as he fell down, I'm like, oh, torn Achilles, it's over.
- [58:22]
Raja Bell
Yeah, I was there. I was hopeful. When I saw the pop. Sorry, Howard. That it was. That it was. You know, as soon as it happened, I was with you, Logan. But I saw. When they replayed it, it looked. You could see the reverberation high up in, like, the gastroc muscle So I was like, man, maybe he got away with just like. Like, really popping his calf. Like, maybe the calf just went. You know what I mean? Like, I was. Yeah, I was holding out hope. But what happens when you can't. When your calf can't do what it's supposed to do? Like, it's the next closest. It puts stress on, like, the next closest thing, right? Like, because your calf isn't operating to protect the Achilles the way that it normally should, it's exposing the fucking Achilles to a lot of stress that it's not normally exposed to. And so, you know, again, I know what it's like to be there and look in the eyes of people and feel like, bro, we got this far. If I can just help you get through it, we'll be all right. And roll the dice in that way. And I rolled them, and I was lucky. It's got to be so difficult because it's got to be so difficult for the people that Hower and I are talking about that should be protecting Halle from himself or should be protecting me from myself or KD from himself, because they cannot feel what we're feeling. All they can do is look at it and then look at you in the eye and be like, yo, what are you feeling? And. And, you know, it's an incredibly difficult thing to say. No, I'm not. I'm not buying that we're shutting you down to protect you. Like, it's. It's got to be. It's got to be excruciatingly, excruciatingly hard.
- [59:56]
Howard Beck
I just want to throw out one more thing, because this. This piece is about the discourse and the media and fans are part of this, too. And hell, man, even former players are part of this, too. The man up, go out there and do it anyway. Play anyway. And, like, would, like Halliburton. His own sense of pride and responsibility might have driven him to take the risk anyway, right? He may have just done it. That's the way he's wired. And. And this is why you have people needing to step in, because as a competitor, you. You can't sometimes, you know, reason through this. And you're going to take risks maybe shouldn't take and somebody else has to tell you not to. So I respect the fact that Halliburton might have done this regardless. And so it's not because of the discourse, but I hate the fucking. And I hated it during the Cav series when I heard some pretty prominent people at times saying, oh, Garland should have just manned up and Got out there, whatever. Garland's now had surgery and is going to be like, I don't know if he's missing training camp or the start of the season. Like, ended up being a pretty serious thing. It is so stupid and ignorant of us and presumptuous of us in the fucking peanut gallery to ever say that guy should play through that injury because you don't know exactly how severe it is we get. You know, we only sometimes get, you know, 70, 80, 90% of the actual information. We don't have the MRIs in front of us, and we're not doctors or trainers like it is if a guy is not playing. My policy personally has always been, and I, I hope I have never veered from this. You have to defer to the player and that team that they have made the right decision. If you're thinking, huh, why can't he play through that? Maybe there's a reason that you just don't know, because we're not privy to all of it. And before you just assume that the guy is just, you know, you know, being. Being weak or whatever, however you want to frame it, realize we don't always have all the information and it's their careers that are at stake.
- [61:48]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah.
- [61:48]
Howard Beck
So I, I just, I. I hate that stuff. And, and there was a little bit of it around this one. And there was definitely around during the Cav series with Garland and Mobley.
- [61:57]
Raja Bell
What was, what was Garland. What were their injuries?
- [61:59]
Howard Beck
You remember Garlands, I think is a. I'm gonna.
- [62:02]
Cliff
Is it a foot injury?
- [62:03]
Howard Beck
I thought it was a. I thought it was a foot. I'm like, Google.
- [62:06]
Cliff
Yeah, I think it's a foot injury here.
- [62:08]
Raja Bell
I just want to add to that toe. This big toe, like, turf toe.
- [62:12]
Logan Murdoch
Yeah, that's.
- [62:14]
Raja Bell
That's excruciatingly.
- [62:16]
Howard Beck
Toe surgery out four to five months, and he needed a surgery that would put him out for four to five months.
- [62:20]
Logan Murdoch
And also your big toe was so important. Dude.
- [62:23]
Raja Bell
No. Yeah, you're. There's no.
- [62:24]
Logan Murdoch
What he does.
- [62:25]
Raja Bell
There's no explosion. There's no, there's no get off with the big toe that's on fire like that. But here's, you know, and when I played, I.
- [62:36]
Logan Murdoch
You.
- [62:36]
Raja Bell
There's so many things that you can play through. Right. Like, there's so many things. A general NBA player has something hurt every fucking night. Like, there's something hurting you every night. Now do you have an actual injury? Not all the time. Right. And so, you know, trying to figure your way through, like, what I can play through what I can't play for. I used to always like to ask, like, can I make it worse? Right? Cause like, if, if, If I can make it worse, then, you know, maybe not. If this, some. If this is something that's not gonna get worse and it's purely pain tolerance, then, then I'm gonna play it like, that's not a problem. I'll play through that, right? And then, and we'll work that out. But, and, and, but now, again, with just the, with the amount of times that you've seen the direct correlation between the calf strain and, and the Achilles, the answer to that. If it, if, if the question were posed should have been, yeah, you could. You can make it worse.
- [63:29]
Howard Beck
I wonder if that conversation happened, Raja. Like, I wonder if he, like, if he asked it. If somebody said, yes, that is a risk, but it's up to you to take it or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, again, we will never know what that conversation was. It just, but it just sucks. I just. I felt horrible. I had a pit in my stomach all night after that because just knew. You know, we didn't know, but we knew.
- [63:52]
Raja Bell
No doubt.
- [63:52]
Cliff
All right, next question. This is from Dylan Bateman. Nick's coaching question. Hi, Real ones. My name is Dylan from Vancouver, Canada, and I'm a longtime listener and fan of the show. Adam Agweb. Question about this Knicks coaching search. If the Knicks end up hiring Taylor Jenkins, can we give the front office some credit? If Dolan doesn't know Jenkins, do we think that Leon Rose and the rest of the front office did a fake coaching search to show that all the most experienced candidates were spoken for, meaning they needed to pick their own and not Dolan's guy. I always thought that Taylor Jenkins was the best person for this job. If the Knicks want their depth pieces to be stronger than. So is there any way this has all been a ploy so they could hire the person they've wanted all along but Dolan might have been hesitant about. Thanks. Love the pod best. Dylan.
- [64:36]
Logan Murdoch
You know what this sounds like, Raja? A Howard question.
- [64:41]
Raja Bell
Yeah.
- [64:43]
Logan Murdoch
Facts.
- [64:46]
Howard Beck
Oh, man, I love the theory. That's. That's fun. I mean, listen, I'm the guy who two couple weeks ago did did say again on Blue sky and only I can't tell if they're the Knicks front office is like trolling all of us and trolling the league or trolling the. The owner of the team with all this. Jason Kidd. Nope. Denied. Can we get, you know, Quinn Snyder? Can we get like as they're going through all these calls are trying to get all these coaches who are under contract, which is incredibly unusual. I don't think I've ever seen this happen. I haven't ever happened where they're trying to get all the guys who are already under contract first. Something about that was, I don't know, odd off. Weird. Taylor Jenkins among the coaches who are available is a really attractive one. You know, Mike Brown, Michael Malone. Like, there are some really good, accomplished coaches who are sitting right there. If they end up with Taylor Jenkins, I think they've. They've gotten. It's a. It's a good result to the. To the emailer's question, like, I think it's a good result whether it was what they wanted to do all along and the rest of this was just the show they were putting on for Dolan. I. I can't dismiss it. I can't dismiss anything when it comes to Madison Square Garden, an unusual place, but Taylor Jenkins would be a good result. And, you know, I'm just curious to see how soon they get there. Last I heard the expectation was they were not hiring somebody by the time of draft. We're now about 36 hours from the draft that I'm guessing not by the draft, but kind of want to get somebody in soon. You certainly have to have them in place by the time you're sending guys to summer league and trying to figure out what you're running and how you're developing guys, what offseason program is like, it seems like they need to get this soon.
- [66:35]
Logan Murdoch
Yep.
- [66:36]
Raja Bell
Perfect.
- [66:38]
Logan Murdoch
One more. Yeah.
- [66:40]
Cliff
Last one, Last one. This is real quick. This is from Tommy Statler. With KD being a notorious coach killer and IME Deoka just having gotten an extension. Who wins? Tommy Statler.
- [66:52]
Raja Bell
Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Logan. Go ahead.
- [66:54]
Logan Murdoch
I was gonna say Emma Udoka was winning this one.
- [66:56]
Raja Bell
I don't think it's. I really don't think it's going to be that adversarial. I don't. I think this is going to be a really good fit for them. I think. I really do. I think it'd be a great fit whether they ultimately win a championship or not. I don't know. But I think it's going to be exactly. This is exactly what KD needed in my estimation. Real talk.
- [67:13]
Logan Murdoch
Absolutely. I think that. But, like, you know, the problem with, like, the last two choices that KD made in terms of free agency was that he just picked choices that just didn't suit his personality, to be honest with you. I think that maybe you know, part of that was like, I can do this on my own. A little bit of that. Right. And. But he put people around him that would not win a. An argument with him. Let's just say that. Right. Like, in that he could kind of have more power over here. Like, he's always kind of need. Like we said this early in the pod, he's always kind of needed just a personality, alpha, whatever you want to call it, to just kind of offset what he does. Right. And I think that. I think ultimately he is going to fall in line with what Ma is talking about because, like, at the end of the day, Katie is a Hooper's Hoopers. Hooper. That's what he is. That's what he wants to do. That's who he is. He wants to play basketball. And all the other stuff is will fall in line. But when you got a guy that just wants to play basketball, basketball, basketball, you need the Rah Rah types. You need the Russell Westbrooks, you need the Draymond Greens. Honestly, you need the guys that are going to be culture setters. And he won.
- [68:34]
Raja Bell
What the.
- [68:36]
Logan Murdoch
Exactly. Yeah. Right. The Jalen Greens of the world. Exactly. Yeah. Anyways, this is gonna be great.
- [68:43]
Howard Beck
Roger's waiting till we're an hour and eight minutes into, like, stir this up again.
- [68:57]
Logan Murdoch
We're back. The gang is back. My bad.
- [68:59]
Howard Beck
Just in time to shut down for the summer.
- [69:02]
Logan Murdoch
Yep. All right. That has been another edition of Real Ones. I am Logan Murdoch. That is Howard Beck. That is Raja Bell. Cliff on the boards, Victoria on the videos. Another additional Real Ones tap in with us on Friday. Friday. Real ones. Mailbag Gmail.com ruins mailbag Gmail.com real ones mailbag Gmail.com we're. We're my. We've been mailbagged out for the last few weeks, so I think we're not going to do a mailbag on Friday. And that's all I really have to tell you about Friday because I don't know what the hell is going to go on. I don't even know who's going to be here, all the shits by.
- [69:44]
Howard Beck
It.