Are the Warriors Cooked Without Curry? Plus, Can the Celtics Turn It Around Against the Knicks? | Real Ones

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ringer NBA Show – "Are the Warriors Cooked Without Curry? Plus, Can the Celtics Turn It Around Against the Knicks? | Real Ones"

Release Date: May 9, 2025

---

1. Opening Remarks and Playoff Betting Insights

The episode kicks off with hosts Logan Murdoch and Raja Bell delving into the NBA playoffs, focusing on the Golden State Warriors' predicament without Steph Curry and the Boston Celtics' struggle against the New York Knicks. Logan emphasizes the role of Warriors’ Draymond Green and the broader challenges faced by the team in the playoffs.

2. Golden State Warriors Without Steph Curry

Logan Murdoch raises concerns about the Warriors' chances without their star player, Steph Curry, who is currently battling a hamstring injury. He states:

"Steph Curry, hamstring injury since the last time we talked, which is tough. People say like a week for that, but I think he's out for the series at least, right?" ([06:03])

Raja Bell concurs, analyzing the Warriors' current state:

"They're in a lot better position than you would think, all things considered, because they stole that first game. So, you know, now look, clearly without Steph there, they are not nearly the same level of threat to anyone as they would be with him." ([07:26])

Despite stealing the first game, Raja doubts the Warriors' ability to advance without Curry, suggesting:

"I would give them more of a chance than I normally would because they stole the first game. But I don't think they get out of the series. I think they're kind of cooked." ([07:26])

Logan further critiques Draymond Green's on-court behavior, highlighting his technical fouls and questioning his accountability:

"I feel like he has been doing that the majority of this postseason... he’s skating responsibility." ([23:00])

3. Draymond Green’s Conduct and its Impact

The hosts engage in a heated discussion about Draymond Green's recent actions, technical fouls, and his public statements addressing perceptions of him as an "angry black man." Logan expresses frustration over Green's attempts to deflect responsibility:

"What I would give me pause was the fact that this seemed to be a ploy to mask the level of responsibility that he holds for not being the best teammate that he can be." ([22:00])

Raja Bell acknowledges the complexity of the situation, recognizing both Green's struggles and the potential influence of societal perceptions:

"I think he's slightly right, but you've put yourself in that position so many times." ([38:27])

The conversation underscores the tension between Green's personal accountability and external narratives, culminating in Logan's earnest reflections:

"It's hard to turn around and say, I don't appreciate the narrative that's being spun about me without acknowledging your contribution to the narrative." ([33:00])

4. Minnesota Timberwolves vs. Warriors Playoff Series

Turning to the Warriors' playoff series against the Minnesota Timberwolves, Raja Bell provides a critical analysis:

"I think the series has been one of the group chats in general has been Knicks Celtics. And you said something very surprising..." ([44:13])

He discusses Ant’s shooting struggles and the Timberwolves' supportive cast, highlighting players like Julius Randle and Naz Reed:

"You have to have your number one point produced, like a number one consistently. But, like, right now, I think he's okay." ([15:10])

Logan questions the future of the Warriors without Curry, forecasting a challenging series outcome:

"Would not be surprised if he's out for the season then." ([13:32])

5. Boston Celtics vs. New York Knicks Series Analysis

The hosts shift focus to the Celtics' performance against the Knicks, expressing skepticism about the Celtics' ability to maintain their advantage:

Raja Bell observes:

"I don't believe they will [the Celtics turn it around]. I don't like that the Celtics continue to do this." ([47:20])

Logan Murdoch echoes frustration with the Celtics' inconsistency:

"The Celtics have a habit of getting punked. It just happens, and I just can't see the Knicks being the better team." ([52:16])

Despite acknowledging the Celtics' on-paper superiority, both hosts remain doubtful about their resilience in the series.

6. Transition to WNBA Segment with Sirit Sohi

Midway through the episode, Logan Murdoch introduces Sirit Sohi, the host of The Ringer's WNBA Show, to discuss the current WNBA season. They engage in a candid conversation about various WNBA teams, player performances, and league dynamics.

7. WNBA Teams and Player Performances

Sirit Sohi shares insights on the Los Angeles Sparks, expressing skepticism about their competitiveness:

"The Sparks are absolutely not a top five team in the WNBA. They're probably going to be a bottom five team." ([61:07])

They discuss the Seattle Storm, Indiana Fever, and the impact of recent trades, such as acquiring Kelsey Plum. Sirit highlights the challenges and potential of these teams:

"I think Kelsey Plum is going to have a really good season, but I am skeptical about the long-term commitments." ([65:31])

The conversation also touches on the rivalry between WNBA leagues like UNRIVALED and Athletes Unlimited, emphasizing the need for stability and consistent officiating:

"The WNBA needs to fix... consistency of refing across the league, which is a huge problem." ([87:46])

8. Concluding Remarks and Shout-Outs

As the episode wraps up, both hosts share personal anecdotes and offer shout-outs to listeners and affiliates. They also touch upon broader issues within the NBA and WNBA, such as team dynamics, free agency, and league operations.

Raja Bell concludes with a motivational note:

"Shout out to my young buck, Ty Bell, who made ESPN top 25 for the first releasing of the 2028." ([100:38])

Logan Murdoch emphasizes community engagement:

"Shout out to all the affiliates, out to all the homies." ([101:15])

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Logan Murdoch ([06:03]): "Steph Curry, hamstring injury since the last time we talked, which is tough. People say like a week for that, but I think he's out for the series at least, right?"

• Raja Bell ([07:26]): "They're in a lot better position than you would think, all things considered, because they stole that first game. So, you know, now look, clearly without Steph there, they are not nearly the same level of threat to anyone as they would be with him."

• Logan Murdoch ([22:00]): "What I would give me pause was the fact that this seemed to be a ploy to mask the level of responsibility that he holds for not being the best teammate that he can be."

• Raja Bell ([38:27]): "I think he's slightly right, but you've put yourself in that position so many times."

• Raja Bell ([15:10]): "You have to have your number one point produced, like a number one consistently. But, like, right now, I think he's okay."

• Sirit Sohi ([61:07]): "The Sparks are absolutely not a top five team in the WNBA. They're probably going to be a bottom five team."

• Logan Murdoch ([06:03]): "Steph Curry, hamstring injury since the last time we talked, which is tough..."

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Ringer NBA Show provides a thorough analysis of key NBA playoff series, focusing on the Warriors' struggles without Curry and the Celtics' challenges against the Knicks. Additionally, the inclusion of Sirit Sohi brings valuable insights into the WNBA, highlighting team dynamics and league issues. The hosts blend technical analysis with personal perspectives, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of current basketball narratives.

Transcript

[Logan Murdoch]

You're listening to the Ringer NBA show.

[Raja Bell]

Presented by FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after tip off.

[Logan Murdoch]

Just look for the live SGP tab.

[Raja Bell]

On the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip.

[Logan Murdoch]

Then sit back, relax and track the.

[Raja Bell]

Outcome of your parlay right in the app.

[Logan Murdoch]

If you don't already have it, download.

[Raja Bell]

The FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem.

[Logan Murdoch]

Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com what up? We got a great show for you today. Me and Raja are talking Warriors Draymond NBA Playoffs and then me and Sirit Sohi are talking everything you need to know about the WNBA season. FanDuel is letting you get in on all the NBA playoffs action right from the first tip because right now all customers get a no sweat same game parlay every weekend when you bet the NBA playoffs. That's right, just use your token on three plus leg same game parlay or same game parlay plus on any NBA playoff game and you'll get bonus bets back if you don't win. Let's take a look at the slate. Cavs Pacers I'm definitely taking the over on that one. I'm taking the over on assistant points from Halliburton and I'm taking the over on points points for Donovan Mitchell. Thunder Nuggets I'm taking the Nuggets on this one as an outright victory and I'm taking the over on points assist and rebounds for Nicola Yokic and I'm taking the under on points for Shay Gilgis. Alexander. There's no better place to bet all the playoff action than America's number one sports book. Visit fanduel.com ringernba and get a no sweet same game parlay every weekend of the NBA playoffs. That's FanDuel.com backslash Ringer NBA FanDuel official sports betting partner of the NBA must be 21 years and older and present in select states or 18 and older in President DC. Opting required minimum three leg parlay required Refund issued as non withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Max refund $5 unless otherwise specified Restrictions apply including token expiration sheet [e-mail] gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help this episode is brought to you by Indeed. Slow and steady doesn't always win the race. Like when Phil Jackson really needed a shot in Game 2 of the NBA Finals, he just gave the ball to Kobe and let him cook. And that helped win the game. If you're looking to hire someone fast, use Indeed. Indeed. Sponsored jobs. Get 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Speed up your hiring process right now with a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.comringermba that's indeed.comringer MBA terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Com. What's poppin Real ones. Logan Murdoch here, Rajabel there. Howard Beck is somewhere, but not here. Cliff on the boards. John is on the video. I don't really have, like, a good catchphrase for John. John right now. We're here to talk fucking playoffs. Hi, Roger. Roger didn't even want to talk pre potty, so let's fucking go. He has his onyx haircut. He has his Bluetooth headphones in. He's ready to pod.

[Raja Bell]

I'm ready to go. Yeah, I don't know.

[Logan Murdoch]

It's.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, let's go. It's fucking Friday, man. Let's go, man. What age are. I mean, I guess I doubt Cliff would be at this age. Logan. I don't. I don't know if you're there yet where, like, you have a closet full of shit that you've accumulated. I mean, I've got a nice sized closet, like, full of cool stuff. And I wear like the same five things all the time. Like, we'll. We'll do like a load of laundry in the morning if one of those five things aren't available to me just so I can put it back on.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm not there yet, bro. I'm not. I use. You know, I'm actually on the other side of this equation where, like, I have a big closet and it racks my brain to figure out what I'm gonna wear. I actually do. Oh, you're gonna laugh at this. You're gonna laugh at this. I do outfit changes throughout the day just based on mood. You will roast me all the time for it. Like, I'll be like, I'm not actually. You know, I get back from like a walk or something. I'm changing. Like, I swear to God, it's. It's so subtle too, right? Like, maybe I'll put on another shirt or, like, sweats I have done at least three or four outfit changes throughout the day. So, you know, the laundry is. Is diabolical. So all that to say, I think I can't relate.

[Raja Bell]

No, you're not going to relate to that. But there. There does come. There will come a time in your life, I think, where that will slow down. So maybe instead of, like, three outfit changes, I mean we're down to, like, one. Maybe it's just a midday change. I don't know.

[Logan Murdoch]

Maybe. Maybe. I just want to say before we get to playoff talk, and I've been like, in my mind, I've been thinking, I'm gonna bring up this on the podcast, and I just forget, hey, man, I just want you to know, Steve Nash ain't coming on our pod ever.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, that ship sailed, huh?

[Logan Murdoch]

That ship is fucking sailed, right?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he. Look, I mean, it might be better for me to collect in some other facet of life, but he's going to owe me one. We'll see. We'll find out if it's better.

[Logan Murdoch]

And the. And the cold thing is, people don't know behind the scenes. And now I can say it, because he's clearly not going on. And he's like. He's even more of a celebrity now than he was, you know, even fucking two years ago. But he be like, pump faking and double Dutch. It'd be like, Roger will hit Steve Nas and be like, yo, you coming on? Steve will be like, yeah, when? And then, like, not respond. And then pops up with Lebron. And then, you know, now he's doing the Amazon thing. So, you know, we're done. We're cooked. I just. I don't. I can't. I've been wanting to vent with you for the last few months, but, you know, we're here now.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I think it's. I mean, it's an indictment on our friendship for sure. Although I did ask him to train with Ty, like, see if I could come bring Ty out to train with him. And he was, like, gassed. He was like, yes, we could do this. So. So, I mean, we're, you know, but we have some things to work through.

[Logan Murdoch]

It's fine. I mean, it's not even just fine. It is what it is. I don't have no transition for this, but the Golden State warriors, man, they lost a game two. They somehow got a split in this series, which is crazy. And they look. But it looks bleak without Steph Curry there. Right? And we can get into the stats, but it really doesn't Matter. They. I, I know I'm the Warriors guy and I and I have a lot of thoughts, but I want to get to your thoughts in general. Where are the warriors right now as a staff record label mother effing crew and we are going to talk about the Timberwolves at some point in this segment, but I want to get to the warriors part because it looks like they are. Are taking a walk towards the end and it's looking like it's about to get packed up. Steph Curry, hamstring injury since the last time we talked, which is tough. People say like a week for that, but I think he's out for the series at least, right? Like it's not even a, it's not even a question. I don't think he'll be back for this series and probably if they somehow miraculously won, would probably wouldn't come back till the middle of the next series if, if it's all, if it's even a normal hamstring injury. Where are the warriors right now? I mean, I know they're in the abyss, but where in the abyss are they, Raja?

[Raja Bell]

Well, they're in a lot better position than you would think, all things considered, because they stole that first game. So, you know, now look, clearly without Steph there, they are not nearly the same level of threat to anyone as they would be with him. Right. So do I give them much of a chance, you know, to, to do anything past this series? No, but as it relates to this series, I would give them more of a chance than I normally would because they stole the first game. So in that world, you know, I tend to think that they, they aren't going to win this series. Like I'm going to say Minnesota beats them, but if they should steal another game or like Ant hasn't been playing fantastic this series, like if he goes cold or any number of things happen, like you almost saw it last night.

[Logan Murdoch]

Ant.

[Raja Bell]

Ant hurts that ankle. Like when you steal a game, it opens up possibilities for you. So if you fall into another one now you have a series, I don't think they get out of the series. I think they're kind of cooked. It puts a lot of people into a role on that team that they aren't used to playing. And while you might be able to do that for like a night any on any given night, tonight I think it was might have been game six against the Clippers. I think game five is when I hit the shot. If I'm remembering correctly, game six, we go back to LA and Somebody was out. It might have been Steve. Somebody was out. So it put me in the role of, like, having to score, like, to be the. Be the. Be a primary. And I think I had like 33 that night, but it wasn't enough to win a game, and I couldn't do that every night. So, like, you're asking guys that normally are just like, you know, complimentary pieces to step up and have to be the driving force of an offense while Jimmy Butler can, you know, I'd say he's probably not what he was a few years ago himself, and I don't know that anybody else on that roster can really do that in a way that gets them through the series. But winning that first game, Logan, and that certainly helps.

[Logan Murdoch]

I mean, that Jimmy Butler $120 million contract is looking nasty right now. I mean, he had a triple double to start the series, but like you said, he just doesn't have the lift. He's also playing with injuries, right? Like, I feel like he's playing with injuries right now that he wouldn't necessarily play with if it was the regular season. I mean, he took that big fall against Houston, and I think there's some lingering effects to that. And he just also just doesn't have the athleticism he even had two years ago. And we always talk about role players being outsized in their roles in playoff time. It's just not sustainable. Like the Buddy Hill. I love the story of Buddy Hill. He's also one of my favorite guys to see in the locker room. It's just not sustainable if you're relying on a guy like this. I want to get your stats really quickly because I just want to, you know, you against the Clippers, this is the 202006 playoffs, right?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I think so.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. All right, let's. Let's go down Memoryland. Let's look at it. Let's look at this. Um, you had against the clippers, you had 33 in game four, or that was in game four. Then you had 22 in game five, which was the game winner in double overtime. And then going back to LA, you had 13. You were two of nine, sir.

[Raja Bell]

So that the wrong games. But very supportive of what I'm saying.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like, very supportive of one of those games.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, you have 33, then another one, you have 20, but then that 13 showing up. Like, if you're relying on me to carry your offense to wins, because we're without Steve or Steve and Sean, you know, we're just not going to be consistently able to win Games.

[Logan Murdoch]

My favorite thing about this is the NBA.com headline which says, raja rings bell on clips. Also, fucking John Marion had 36 and.

[Raja Bell]

20 telling you, bro, Sean was so important. Sean was so critical to what. What we did.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. It still doesn't think he was seen as quite important enough. But anyway.

[Raja Bell]

But well, let me touch on this because in that same playoff run, I actually pulled my. My calf, right? So, you know, to tie that into Steph's hamstring. Those soft tissues are. Are interesting, right, because you could put like a week to 10 days on it.

[Logan Murdoch]

Right?

[Raja Bell]

Like, that's just a general, you know, kind of timeline. But, you know, what you find with those injuries is even if you're trying to convince yourself that you can play on those, because there will eventually come a point where Steph gets close enough to convince himself, I might be able to go. When they test you in whatever capacity they're going to test you in practice. Like, all right, let's. Let's do some lane slides where you're going to slide from one side of the lane, touch the box, slide to the other side of the lane, touch the box. Okay, fine. Let's do some sprints. We're gonna. We're gonna do a suicide free throw line back, half court back, free throw line back, full court back. They're gonna watch how you move in that. Well, that's all a script. So in a scripted situation, you can protect whatever little pull that you have once it's healed to a certain degree, you can protect it. Where you can't protect it is when you drop him into spontaneous, reactive type of play.

[Logan Murdoch]

And that's a quick twitch player, too. He's not like he's a normal NBA basketball player. He's running off screens. He has, like, the fidgety game, you know, that's where it doesn't make.

[Raja Bell]

That's where it doesn't work because you can't protect it. And that happened to me. Like, I was. I actually kind of tricked them into letting me play in that series, but I couldn't move at all, you know, and once I. Once it got like, spontaneous and I had to just hoop and react, I couldn't do what I was supposed to do. So I would venture to say that he's out longer than that. That week to 10 days myself.

[Logan Murdoch]

Would not be surprised if he's out for the season then. I know that's hyperbolic, but it's the truth. That's how tricky hamstring injuries are. Yeah, I saw some people like, yeah, he Might be back for game six. Okay. Yeah. All right.

[Raja Bell]

And you, you, you have a great point. If that's KD or if that is, you know, even, even like Bron, if those are guys that you can basically stand somewhere, Luca, and have them catch the ball because they're big body dudes and they can just get into their mid post work, I could make a case for maybe you're still not going to be great but like that's not a lot of running and, and change of direction. Like his whole game is predicated on movement. Yeah, yeah, that's going to be more difficult.

[Logan Murdoch]

It's going to be difficult also. Like, let me go back to the Timberwolf side real quick. What's the deal with Ant shooting right now? What are you seeing? What are you looking at? What are you. What is, what is. What has been his problem? Is he going too fast? Because he had like, he hasn't shot well from the field throughout these first two games. But also like going into game seven of the game against the Lakers, like he was, was not great offensively, you know, that was the Rudy Gobert game. Julius Randle's also been great. Naz Reed has been great. Kind of holding down the fort while he's been gone. Like this has been a really impressive showing from Minnesota supporting cast. Kenny Smith said something really interesting about the, the Timberwolves is that like the guys don't necessarily have to change their roles when Ant is out. They can kind of just still play within themselves because they have a guy like Mike Conley and they, they have a point guard setup. Whereas the warriors whole universe is centered around one player and their whole offense is. But how, what do you see from Ant that is troublesome and what can he do to get back on track to help this team get to where.

[Raja Bell]

You need to go? I don't know that anything's troublesome. He's just not, you know, he's not making the, the pure volume of shots that he, that he, you're accustomed to seeing him make. I don't, I wouldn't say anything's necessarily troublesome. And why I don't really worry about him is because he always gives you an honest effort everywhere else. And I've said this on pods before, like when he's not making shots, he still can affect the game in a lot of ways. And so there's value there right now for them to, if they should get through Golden State, have the opportunity to beat whoever comes out of the other series in the west or even moving forward. Have a chance to win a championship, you've got to have your number one point produced, like a number one consistently. But, like, right now, I think. I think he's okay. Like, you know, obviously Golden State's wounded. If Steph was healthy, maybe I'd be singing a different tune right now. But as it is, you know, they're not whole. They're going to struggle. And I don't think that it's really troublesome that Ant's going through what he's going through right now. He just needs to find it. And more than anything, you just got to relax and go out there and shoot the ball. Just shoot your way out of it.

[Logan Murdoch]

Keep.

[Raja Bell]

Keep hooping.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. And I think Minnesota's going to be okay. And the other thing that we have said, I mean, even prior to this series was Minnesota was going to win. We thought Minnesota was going to win in five or six games pre step injury. Right. Like, this isn't. I think they're that much of a better team. And I think you can see what was surprising you in that game one, though. Like, how did that. How does that happen with. If you're Minnesota for a team that is definitely inferior to you? But this is just that they caught fire at the right time. Like, Draymond played like it was 2015. Yeah, he was hitting threes, but like that. That seemed like an anomaly game in the moment. What did you see from Minnesota that maybe gave you pause or. And also, was it just a. This is fine. It was an anomaly game.

[Raja Bell]

They just look shocked that they got hit. The way. I think the way we spoke about the series coming in, about how Golden State was going to be gas. They expended too much energy, you know, messing around with Houston. There's no way that they can keep this pace. I think that to some degree, Minnesota was listening to that, you know, not necessarily us, but the narrative had creeped.

[Logan Murdoch]

Appreciate you and for listening to the podcast. Thank you.

[Raja Bell]

So the narrative had crept in in a way that you can't let something like that creep in. And I don't think they had. Golden State had Minnesota's full attention, if you will. Now, I know they prepped for him and stuff, but I don't think that they were. They were ready for that. On top of that, not to take any credit away from Golden State, they came out and hit him right in the mouth. They defended their asses off. Like, you know, that was the theme of that particular game to me, was just how swarming that. That that defense was and how it was from top to bottom on that roster. Everybody that hit the court was, like, flying around and ready to go. Before you know it, you were like. You were in a buzzsaw, like, you couldn't get anything going. You were turning the ball over left and right. Offense looked really disjointed if you're. If you're in Minnesota. And, you know, that just fueled the fire that was, you know, Golden State that game, and Buddy healed and everybody else. So. So, yeah, that's one of those that, you know, while it's disappointing and we let that slip, I didn't necessarily look at that one as a sign of things to come for Minnesota in the series, especially now.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like, I think. I think Minnesota has a great opportunity to just take control of this series, and I think that they will. I think that when they're on and Ant is on, I think they're pretty unstoppable, especially even against this Golden State team is where they are right now. Okay, so you know exactly what I'm going to talk about, and I don't necessarily want to talk about it, but we go talk about it because we're here and it's pertinent. Okay, so this. So after the game. No, let's just say actually during the game, Draymond Green received a technical foul after. What the hell is. What the hell is this? Raj, Walk me through this. As a basketball player, he got the ball, tried to go for a. For a shot or tried to draw a foul on a shot of Nas Reed and elbow Naz Reed in the face.

[Raja Bell]

He's a flailer.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like, it's what he does.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. When he doesn't. When he. When he perceives. When he perceives a foul or he thinks he's been fouled, his. His reaction is to flail. And that's always been the weird thing to me.

[Logan Murdoch]

Right.

[Raja Bell]

It's not. Some people flop and try to sell it, but he, like, flails and tries to, like, inflict some sort of harm to the person offended.

[Logan Murdoch]

Right. So he did the flail if inflict harm special, and he gets a technical foul for that. Probably should have got another technical file for that. And then after the game, I believe he was asked about it, and he just put a statement out and he says, I'm not an angry black man. I am tired of the agenda to make me look like an angry black man. I am a successful, highly educated black man with a great family. I want to preface this by saying I believe all of that. I. I do believe he is a Successful, highly educated black man. I've seen his family. He does come from a great family, Dre. Mom is great. His wife is great. Everyone is great. He has beautiful kids that run around the practice facility like part of the family. By all intents and purposes, he's raised a great family. Absolutely. But I do. And I also want to preface this by saying, do I believe that the perception of him being angry and an angry black man, could that be misconstrued, and could people look at him a certain way based on the color of his skin? I believe that to be the case, absolutely. Because I would be naive to say that's not the case in the current climate that we live in, in the history of this country. Absolutely. I believe that. Um, but what I had a problem with Raja was. And also. I want to. I want to also talk about and give light to the fact that he did allegedly have slurs thrown at him while he was on a stationary bike. Right. So all those things. I do believe him when he does, when he says he believes that there is an agenda to make him look like an angry black man. What misses the mark for me, though, and what I would kind of gave me pause was the fact that this seemed to be a ploy to mask the level of responsibility that he holds for not being the best teammate that he can be. When you get five technical fouls in nine games and probably should have got more, and it seems like you're skating responsibility, because I don't think that that has to necessarily do with an agenda against you. I think it's your actions, because we all seen it throughout this playoffs and beyond before that. Right. He built this reputation brick by brick with the technical files, with the flailing, with the kicking, with the punching of his own teammates, with the flailing and kicking that made him get suspended indefinitely and. And have to get league mandated therapy. Like, I feel like Draymond wants his cake and eat it, too. And when I saw that clip last night, it was. I want to make sure I make my words carefully here, because I know a lot of people listen to this, but it felt disingenuous because it came on the heels of yet another play when you acted selfish to the point where your teammates had to come onto the floor and tell you to calm down. Right. And I feel like he has been. Been doing a disservice to his team with the technical files. And I'm not the only one saying this. It's the people in the building that are still concerned about how he's. How he's been conducting himself and the behavior that he has had. And while I respect all of those things that, you know, I feel like he's going through, I'm a black man myself. I understand. I have heard people say some wild shit about Draymond in the stands, being in the media thing. I have heard that shit. I've seen that. But I feel like this part is separate. His behavior has. Is separate from the fact that he. Yes, he does also go through things that we all do go through as black people, as black men. But I don't feel like he should have the opportunity to skate past that and skate past his actions and not hold himself accountable, which is what I feel like he did. I don't feel like he held himself accountable for the technical fouls that he put himself. Put himself in during the last game. And that's where I feel like we are right now. I don't feel like he's holding himself accountable right now.

[Raja Bell]

I think that's. I think it's okay to feel like that.

[Logan Murdoch]

I.

[Raja Bell]

What I couldn't figure out, and I've tried to flesh it out all morning, listening to everything I could about what transpired last night, was whether his reaction and that it wasn't a press conference because he didn't do media availability. This was like he wanted to make.

[Logan Murdoch]

A statement and it walked off. Yeah, Right.

[Raja Bell]

And so the statement. I couldn't figure out whether the statement was in regards to the incident that happened when he was on the bike and the racial slur that he. That he says was hurled at him, or if it was in regards to his interactions with the referees on the court and the media's portrayal of that. I find those to be two separate things, and I can't determine whether or not he was addressing one or the other, if that makes sense. No matter what Draymond does on the court, no matter what position he puts himself in as a teammate, no matter how angry he is or is not, there's no place for what he says happened to him in that tunnel in a sporting event. And whoever transgresses and. And is. Is the culprit of that must be removed. And my vote is they never get to come back. So let's make that clear. On the flip side of that, and this one is kind of hits near and dear to my heart. Like I. I've told you before, I don't know if I've said it on here. You get. You get, like, fake names. What do they call aliases? Like, when you get. When you get to the NBA, and you. When I first got to the NBA, I wasn't able to pick my own alias, right? So I was given an alias. Do you know what my alias was?

[Logan Murdoch]

What was.

[Raja Bell]

Was ab. You know what that stand for or stood for?

[Logan Murdoch]

A Black.

[Raja Bell]

Angry Black.

[Logan Murdoch]

Angry Black. Okay.

[Raja Bell]

Right. So that's what I was given by the staff of the 76ers, affectionately. Because I would get fired up and, you know, I, you know, interesting. Like, Draymond's an interesting me man. And I'm like, bear with me as I work through this. I'm not inherently an angry person. Most people who know me know that I'm not just, like, walk. You're not walking on eggshells around me all day long. I'm not ready to pop all day. I don't have a lot of time for perceived. I don't like ignorance of any color, shape, size. And there are things that might happen that a normal person might let go and say, oh, don't worry about it. Don't call him on that. That. I just don't. And I don't know where that imaginary line is to know when I've crossed it into the angry territory. And so I don't think it's all the way fair. And I feel him when he says he doesn't appreciate, you know, the angry black man narrative. Having said that, when you are in an atmosphere like the NBA or an arena like the NBA, the NFL, hockey, baseball, media, whatever, when all eyes are on you and you've got that many fans tuned into what you're doing and you are acting the way you act sometimes and comporting yourself the way you do, and you've accumulated, I don't, 30 some technicals over your career in the playoffs, which was a wild number, was like 19 more than anybody else. You got five. You've had the choking incident. You've. You've. You had the incident in the playoffs years before where. Where you were suspended for kick to the groin. Like, these things have actually happened. Nobody's manufacturing this. You're. You're. You're handling yourself this way. And even last night, you had the tech for the flailing. Let's say the flailing is genuinely the way you move. Right? Like, I don't think that you always have to flail and hit someone when you're trying to draw a foul. But let's say, like, when the doctor hits your knee as a reflex, that is one of your reflexes. Fine, you're going to draw some text for that. That that, that you can't control in that scenario, hypothetically, you don't control them. That's your reflex. But after that, once you got the tech and you went over to the bench and you could have calmed down and you should have calmed down, and given every opportunity to calm down, you came back out on the court guns blazing and probably should have gotten another tech because you berated the official like you were after him in a way where I was. It was unreal that he didn't get ejected. It's then hard to turn around and say, I don't appreciate the narrative that's being spun about me without acknowledging your contribution to the narrative. We're all watching it. And so this is a difficult thing for me because there's so much that goes into it. And I feel for you on the, on the. Listen, man, as black men in this country, I'm sure you've experienced it, Logan, like, any number of ways that, that you can offend someone or, or, or stereotype them or profile them. It's all happened to me, all of it. My kids get called the N word at school. We've been in there multiple times for that. This is happening right now. This is real, right? So I'm, I'm sympathetic and empathetic to that. But when you, when you are out there choking and kicking and hitting and punching, you like any number, like, you cannot shirk the responsibility that you have for contributing to that. I don't deem this as someone trying to paint you in that light. Like, I, I, I've never heard anyone call him that. But if, if I did, I would stand up and be like, yo, bro, don't. Don't say that, dog. Like, that's, that's tacky as shit. That's a terrible, like, it's a terrible label to put on someone. It harbors all types of stereotypes and inherent racism. Like, don't do that. He's an angry. He's an. He says an angry. Don't have to be angry. Black. We don't have to do that. Right. However, I would just say again, and I would agree with you, Logan, like, you have to take responsibility for each out there doing. Like, again, I was given that, that nickname. That was my. Not, not a nickname, but I was given that alias, you know, alias. I contributed to that. I was in practice doing things and fighting people in a way that, from someone just watching would say, yo, bro, he looks, he, he looks angry. You know what I mean? So, like, I, I'm, I'm all conflicted. About this, Logan. Like, as you could tell, because I probably just said a whole lot without saying anything, but I do agree with you in that, like, look, man, you. You have done way more than enough for people to think that you're out there being angry. Does that mean that's who you are? Does that define you off the court? Is that who you are in your personal life and your personal space at every minute? No. Is it fair to say that you might be angrier than someone else? And just because you are, doesn't mean that you're an angry person. Absolutely. Like, who the fuck are you to tell me what I could be angry about? Where's the line drawn in the sand that says you don't have to be offended by that, but because I am, I'm angry. I don't see. I don't subscribe to all of that. However, when you're out there doing what you're doing and the rules say you can't do that, then you don't get to stand up at the mic and say, people are creating that narrative. I agree with you in that.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. I mean, and also, like, in these games, Raja, like, you talk about a leash. He has a super duper star type leash when it comes to their officials for reasons that I just don't know at this point. Right. Like you just said about. He probably should have gotten ejected last night. Absolutely. There was also the play against Eason. What was it? I forgot? Game four, Game five, When he stole. When he. When he got stripped by Eason and tackled Eason. He had already had a technical. He had already had a technical foul that gave him a flagrant and didn't eject him.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

Should have been out on that one. Right. And, you know, I remember when I. The first thing that came to mind was when I saw this quote. This is one of the group chats. But when I saw this quote from Green last night, is. I was immediately thinking it back to warriors Media Day from 2024 this season actually, where a reporter asked Draymond, you know, basically was like, you know, people are worried about you around the arena, around the team, just because of your actions and things like this. What is your response to that? And his response was, I'm a successful black man. Same response. Right. And when I saw this clip, and again, I agree with everything that you said, I also feel like he probably is vilified for the color of his skin. I do believe that in this climate that we're in, like, whether he was yelling or not, I think that he would get that. Regardless, that being said last night, when he said what he said, he said it in a way, like, who's going to. He said it, and then he walked away. But who's going to challenge him in that media scrum, right? And it's not even a beef, but, like, if you have, like, a majority white reporters there and what are they going to say? Like, how are. Even if they were in the right, it's not a great look for you to be like, well, I don't think that. Why would you say that as another reporter, right? Like, he basically got a cheat code to say that and walk off. Because who is going to, in the moment, be able to say something like that? And it feels like. It felt like in the moment that he was. It was bigger than just what he said it was. And it was just him skirting responsibility, which is something that he's done for the majority of this postseason, right? Like, yeah, he's been. He's been doing that the majority of this postseason. Like, Steve Kerr talked to him before Game 7 against Houston about the technicals and about, you know, the behavior and things like that. And that same game, he gets a flavor for fucking up Van Vliet, right? Like, it's a continual, continual process. And I just feel like this was just another. This statement was another way to skirt responsibility. Even though I believe. And I know it's a convoluted thing, and I know some people probably won't understand it, but I do believe that he feels that he gets vilified for the color of his skin. It's not a. A thing that. Just thing to say. It's not a crazy thing to say.

[Raja Bell]

No, let's do this. First of all, try to compartmentalize this. Just put it number one, I don't know. And you're more familiar with the narrative around Draymond. You're in the market. You're way more tapped in to the media. I've never really seen anyone writing pieces that I would say, over an accumulation of time, have painted him as an angry black man. I don't. I don't. I don't read all the Draymond press clippings. So maybe there is someone out there that's trying to paint him in that light. When I'm watching the games and listening to the broadcast, and I. I don't get the feeling that that's what someone's trying to do to him, paint him as a villain. Like, he may perceive it that way, but I. It doesn't give that, to me, I don't feel that.

[Logan Murdoch]

Well, I was saying is, I could see how he. How he could perceive that. Right. You're a guy that is continuing to, like, do these things, and you feel like you have a target on your back. And I can see why he would feel that way.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I understand what you were saying, and I agree. I agree. I'm just saying, like, if I'm keeping it a buck, I don't get the feeling that. That. That any one person is out there or any league or anything is trying to create the narrative. Creating the narrative means we've got nothing to go off of, and we're just going to. Hey, man, let's conspire to paint this picture about someone, and they've got no culpability in it at all. But I don't. I don't. That's not what's happening. Like, you're doing it. You're out there acting a fool and acting like an ass, bro. Like, people are going to report that. Like, that that is really happening. Let's get back to, like, you know, because there are people, some very close to me. I. I married, you know, and we're an interracial couple. My kids are biracial kids. And I was met with family members on the other side that didn't fully understand where I was coming from all the time and some of the things that I said. And so I'm not naive to the fact that there are people out there when I tell them that Luca and the Joker and Dirk Nowitzki and Steve Nash in my time would be rate officials. Like, I'm talking about some of the.

[Logan Murdoch]

We just saw Yokosu to Elbow to fucking Lou Dort the other game. We just saw that from Yogic.

[Raja Bell]

No, but I don't even. I'm not even talking about physical player to player. I'm talking about the berating of officials and calling them every name under the sun and not being portrayed as having anger issues or being like. Like, complete skate on the. On. On that reality. And Draymond or Rashid in my generation or someone like that being turned into, like, a villain, you know, because of it. That. That's a real thing. Like, anybody out here, like, hop on my socials if you want, Debate me if you want. That's a real thing. So I'm not absolving. Draymond of. Absolving is the wrong word. But I'm not saying that Draymond, you know, doesn't slightly live in a world where his transgressions are magnified. In that space, right? And maybe to some degree that I'm saying he might be slightly right, but you've put yourself in that position so many times. You've put yourself in that position so many times. And on a deeper level, again, Bar, you know, look, I didn't prep for this, but, like, maybe that's what Draymond's saying. Maybe that's what he's saying. Maybe he's saying, hey, man, I play Luca, and I play. I play Joker, and I was in the league when Dirk was in the league. And they don't get text for this. Like, they. They don't. And I do.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm not.

[Raja Bell]

I'm not putting words in his mouth. I'm just saying maybe that's where he's coming from, because I'm trying to figure it out today, too. I would just say that if I were Draymond, I'd really be reflective and look and realize that you, while you get a lot of texts, get the benefit of the doubt a lot of times, dude. A lot of times. So your niche, when he's getting called.

[Logan Murdoch]

Or not, like, he's getting restraint from the refs that, like, the refs would show to, like, LeBron or somebody, like, of a. Of a Kobe or another, like, another stature that he's just, quite frankly, just not. Is not in. So it's always surprising that he gets the benefit of the doubt on these things, because even the, like, when you talk about Luca and you talk about Dirk and you talk about Jokic, right? They are of a different, like, class of him as a player. And that's just what it is, right? Like, it's just. It's just different. You know, it's a funny thing. And I just thought about this. I interviewed Draymond in 2021, and he said something really interesting. And I think it goes to the psyche of what you just said. I remember it was. It was. The context was. I was asked him a question, like, how it felt to lose, right? Because they were. It was coming off the heels of them losing a lot in a way that he has never lost before in his Life during the 2019, 2020 season. And he said it was very, very tough. And I'm paraphrasing here, but the part that he said that stuck out was people were talking to me, and that was weird because, honestly, the only person that can actually talk to me in terms of accomplishment is LeBron. And I was kind of floored to hear that. Right? I was just floored to hear that. And. And but that speaks to the psyche that you're talking about. He truly believes that he is of that class. Right? Is. So it's. I don't think it's a crazy thing for him to think, like, oh, yeah, like, those superstars are getting those call or not or saying all that stuff, and they're getting vilified, and I'm not. And I am. And they're not getting vilified, and I am like, what's going on?

[Raja Bell]

But you still. You've still missed the mark, though, was my point on that. Because you might be right, but you still missed the mark because if you'd reflect a little bit and watch your interactions, you'd realize you're getting way more rope and way more leniency than you think.

[Logan Murdoch]

Oh, my God. I know. I know. We've done 40 minutes on this. I do want to talk about the playoffs.

[Raja Bell]

It was fascinating, though. No, it was really fascinating. And I found myself this morning for any number of reasons, Logan, like, just really, really all over the place emotionally about that. Right? Like, just.

[Logan Murdoch]

Me too, man. Like, I was really. Before I got onto this podcast, Roger, I was. I was kind of. I wasn't angry, but I was a little fucked up, man. I'm not gonna lie. Like, those comments really messed me up in a lot of ways. And it wasn't because, like, I internalized them, obviously, as a black man. I felt them as a black man. I believed them as a black man. But the context is everything, right? And I think that was the big thing. But this morning really fucked me up, man. Like, I didn't know how to. I didn't know how to get. I knew we had to talk about them in this podcast, and I think that's what fucked me up about it, is that I just didn't know. I didn't. I didn't have. I didn't know, man.

[Raja Bell]

No, I don't know. Look, I. I'm tell. I'm sitting here telling you there was literally my. My alias. Like, I lived that. Like, so, you know, But I'm. I'm 48 now, and, you know, I see it from another side, right? And. And, you know, I've. Listen, I still don't have the right words for it. It's just, you know, it's unfortunate.

[Logan Murdoch]

I.

[Raja Bell]

Just boil it down to this, dude, I told you, Mark Ivorone one time slipped me a letter under my door. We were in Chicago, and I was so offended by it. I was so offended. And it was basically saying, hey, you got to get yourself under control. You'll cost our team eventually if you can't control yourself. So on and so forth. I wrote him back a very nice letter and slid it under his door saying, yo, I got this. Like, don't worry about it. So on and so forth. And as it played out, I got kicked out of a playoff game and cost our team an opportunity to potentially, you know, move on in the playoffs. Luckily for me, my teammates had me back. Had my back, and they won that game. But the point is, he wasn't wrong. And at the time, I couldn't see it in retrospect, like, thinking back and reflecting on it, he was right and he saw the signs of it. And at least to that team, my level of importance was too much to be putting my team in jeopardy like that. And that's what I'd say to him. Even with Steph, you're too important to what they do to be putting them in the position of having to worry about you not being available to them this late in your career. Especially without Steph. You can't be doing that.

[Logan Murdoch]

The unfortunate part, though, Raja, is they've been telling him that for 13 years now. That exact same thing, right? You know, at some point it has to. You have to actually look yourself in the mirror, right? And not just say it after indefinite suspension, right? Like there was this huge media tour after he had his indefinite suspension about how he had turned over a new leaf, how he had found his a new self, right? How he was accountable for his wrongs. And every single time he does, that's his actions. Don't follow through on that. Just don't. And that's something that he needs to figure out. So this episode is brought to you by Disney's Lilo and Stitch only in theaters this Memorial Day. A reimagining of Disney's animated classic Lilo and Stitch is the wildly funny and touching story of a lonely Hawaiian girl, Lilo, and the fugitive alien Stitch. Stitch, who helps to mend her broken family. Lilo and Stitch crashes into theaters May 23rd. Rated PG. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock.

[Raja Bell]

Not everyone is careful with your personal information, which might explain why there's a.

[Logan Murdoch]

Victim of Identity theft every five seconds.

[Raja Bell]

In the U.S. fortunately, there's LifeLock. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year by visiting lifelock.com podcast.

[Logan Murdoch]

Terms apply. I mean, kind of where we are.

[Raja Bell]

No.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. Let's talk some playoffs. First thing, I think the series of the group chats in general has been Nick Celtics. And you said. And you said something very surprising and I think you're going to get a lot of our Knicks fans pissed off when you say this, including the one near and dear to our hearts. You said, what is going to happen in game three after what just happened in game one and two? No. No. What the fuck did you say? Don't. Don't. No, no, no, no. I'm not gonna. No. Say what you said.

[Raja Bell]

I didn't say anything definitively. And I would just argue that if, if we put everything that was. That was said in our pre pod meetings on air, we'd have a show no longer. So I don't think I'm obligated or.

[Logan Murdoch]

The pay wall would be lit. The PayPal.

[Raja Bell]

Here's what I believe. I think the Knicks could be in trouble.

[Logan Murdoch]

Why is that?

[Raja Bell]

I think the Knicks could be in trouble. You've been down 22 games in a row and the Celtics have had their two worst shooting performances of the season and you were down 20 in both of those games.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

Do I need to, do I need to say more? I mean, now what?

[Logan Murdoch]

No, hold on. What? Here's another thing. What. What about this Roger. What about this argument? Just playing devil's advocate here. What if the Celtics are perpetual bag droppers? That's your hope of bags?

[Raja Bell]

Well, that's. That that would be your hope if you're Knicks. I, I don't mean I'm not taking anything away from Knicks. Like I genuinely am excited. Like my wife grew up in Long Island. Like her and her dad. Like I just talked about my extended family. Like huge Nick fans her bro.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like huge Nicks bro. I love the Knicks. I love watching them play. I love when you put in the fucking chat the let's go Knicks after they won. Like I love it. It was great. Also I watched the side the side talk. I put it in the chat the compilation the, the side talk next season opener, bro. The propaganda for the Knicks is amazing. Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

But make. Make no mistake. Like I. And just as a. Generally speaking, I only know how to root for underdogs really. So like I'm in. I just. It's hard for me to wrap my, my, my 30 some years of basketball like experience mind around the fact that. That the Knicks are the better team and I should expect them to win four out of the next six when I've seen the Celtics just, just look like a Better team for six out of the eight quarters they've played, like, substantial.

[Logan Murdoch]

What is this like? Well, what does that say about the Celtics, though, Roger? Because they continue to do this.

[Raja Bell]

I don't. I don't believe they will. I don't like. Now, if the Knicks and this was.

[Logan Murdoch]

All they need is two games now. They only need two games now.

[Raja Bell]

I got it. They better win tonight. If the Knicks. And this would be the case for the Knick of like, Brunson hasn't popped off all the way yet. Like, it's not like, it's not like you would look at them and say they're just playing out of their mind. And that's the reason that's happening. They're, to their credit, they're finding a way. They're. They're like slugging it out and grinding away and playing the game all the way out and chipping away. And they're doing everything executionally to earn the win. I'm not trying to take that away from them in any way, shape or form, but I have to be realistic when I look at that and say, man, it's not always easy to pull away from someone by 20, especially when you're not shooting that. The skin off of the ball. If you were just barraging people with threes and there was a boom, boom.

[Sirit Sohi]

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

[Raja Bell]

Like, you could be up 20 in a heartbeat. But that's not what's happening. They're like pulling away. Like, we're better than you. We're just gonna pull away.

[Logan Murdoch]

What about this, bro? Like, what have you seen from this playoffs, not just in this Knicks Celtics series, but the fact that league. Why no 20 point lead is safe. Like, I feel like this is just a trend here. Everybody is fumbling the bag when they're up 20, right? Like, you just saw OKC do that.

[Raja Bell]

Against dead Pace, pace, pace and shot selection. I mean, that's. Those are the two.

[Logan Murdoch]

I mean, you saw it with Cleveland. That's another team. Cleveland again, right? But they're. They're dealing with a little bit more than I think what the Celtics are dealing with. They're dealing with injuries. They're dealing with, you know, this taxing, this. The taxing burden on a star.

[Raja Bell]

So here's what pace. Here's what people don't. Don't really fully understand. I don't think until you've done something. We talk pace, right? And you're saying, well, how hard can it be to go from like running up and down and shooting in the first 8 seconds? Of a shot clock to like shooting in the last eight seconds of a shot clock, like, that's, you know, 16 seconds roughly, like, what's the big deal? Like, why can't you. There's a rhythm that you get used to playing at. It's why you see a lot of times, like in youth basketball, a team will get up like by say 17 with 7 minutes to go, and a coach will outthink himself and say, let's start stalling the ball and they lose all rhythm. They can't play like that. Before you know it, the other team is crawled back in the game and. And they've got, you know, they've got you on the ropes. So when you try to slow something down like that, it might throw people out of rhythm. So most teams, you're stuck, you're either going to keep playing this pace and if you're not making the shots, the other team has the opportunity to climb back into the game. But if we try to slow it down and work it a little bit, that's not our wheelhouse as an offense. We're at a rhythm. That's not the way we're used to playing. So we're not now at our best. We're missing shots. The Celtics are pressing. I mean, every single shot they shot in the fourth quarter of that last game, it looked like there was a 1000 pound weight on their shoulder. You could feel it through the tv. They were tight. And so, yeah, that pressure mounts. And I'm not telling you that they won't be the perpetual fumbles of the bag that you're talking about. And the Knicks keep the pressure on and do what they do at home, that place is going to be electric. But I just see a team that, at least on paper, pound for pound, player for player, the Celtics have a huge advantage. And if they play just, if they.

[Logan Murdoch]

Just play well, on paper, they had it. Here's the thing about the Celtics, though. Here's another thing about the Celtics. On paper, they are better than everyone, right? But I just, I told you the last podcast, Raja, they have a propensity to get punked. This happens to them when they get punched in the face. Hey, they fold, bro. It's what happens. It'll happen against Miami. It's happening right now against the Knicks, bro. How Mikel Bridges be taking the ball away from Jaylen Brown. It is so disrespectful, bro. It's so disrespectful.

[Raja Bell]

Jay, wait. Jaylen Brown was bullying boys in that.

[Logan Murdoch]

Last game, Talking about the End game one. I'm talking about the end game one. That was. That was. That was talking about game one when he did. When he ended the game and threw it away. I will say Jaylen. Jaylen Brown is. As opposed to Jason Tatum, has been put into work, has been. He's the one that goes to the cup when they're supposed to go to the cup. Da, da, da, da. But as a whole, the Celtics have a habit of getting punked. It just. It happens, and I'm just. It can't happen in game. Game three, which is going to happen tomorrow at 12:30. I just say if it's. It's not out of the realm of possibility. I think you're giving them too much of the benefit of the doubt because, yes, on one hand, they are the better team. They absolutely should win. But we shouldn't be 0 and 2 right now. If you're. The Boston Celtics get punked, bro. They're getting punked.

[Raja Bell]

Oh, no.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah.

[Raja Bell]

Everything you said is correct. Like, I. I can't argue any of that. I saw.

[Logan Murdoch]

I saw.

[Raja Bell]

I saw, man. Boomerang came up on my phone the other day, and they were sitting there at the table and. And what was it? What's the. What was the actor's name, man? He was the dad in Friday and Witherspoon. John Witherspoon.

[Logan Murdoch]

Oh, John Witherspoon.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah. And he. He said something about eating the pig from the rooted to the Tudor. So, like. Yeah, you're right. From the rooted to the Tudor. You're right. But I. I would just sit here and apologize to all my Knicks, you know, fans and friends.

[Logan Murdoch]

And friends. I know you got a lot of good friends.

[Raja Bell]

I don't have a great feeling. And I. And actually, I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I just don't have a great feeling.

[Logan Murdoch]

Okay. What is your feeling on the Cavs Pacers that's actually happening tonight?

[Raja Bell]

I don't have one.

[Logan Murdoch]

Do you even know. Do you have a feel for this series? It's.

[Raja Bell]

I really don't. It's a. It's just such a. Yeah. I. You know, I'd be lying if I sat up here. And I don't. I don't like to be faking what I'm. What I'm talking about. I have no feel on the series. It's been a weird one to watch. I don't have a great opinion on that. Sorry, guys.

[Logan Murdoch]

I love Tyrese Halliburton. I know that, though. I do know that.

[Raja Bell]

So I came on Here and said, I agree. I said that Jalen Brunson is one of the best closers in the game or the best closer in the game. I think you got to put Halliburton in the mix with that, right? I mean, big shot for big shot.

[Logan Murdoch]

I mean, he's one of the winning shots. Like, I have a chip on my shoulder. Players in the league, at least top three. Like the. The. I took it personal player. I mean, we talk about with the player poll where they said he was.

[Raja Bell]

Overrated and his dad's gonna pop out and hold a flag in your face, straight up.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm gonna just say this, though. And I noticed. I know you know this, Roger. NBA players and athletes in general gotta be some of the most hating on the face of the earth. Just haters, bro. Just like, oh, my God. You would. I mean, you would believe because you played in a league, but just the amount of players that just hate on other players behind the scenes, it's just astounding. You go into a locker room, yeah, you're really that good. And I know. I guess you guys need that to have the edge or whatever, but y' all some hating mofos. Y' all are just some hating.

[Raja Bell]

They. I genuinely, like, didn't really hate on a lot of people. I just. It was. That wasn't ever my. It wasn't ever my thing. And I tried to.

[Logan Murdoch]

You feel what I'm saying, though?

[Raja Bell]

I do. I do. I do. I do. It does exist. And for him to be voted most overrated, I mean, that's pretty wild. But, you know, whatever that mofo you give. You give me a select. There are a select few group of people in the league right now that I would take with the ball and an opportunity to win the game. Give me those guys to put the ball in their hand, and he's one of them.

[Logan Murdoch]

Absolutely. Okc, Denver. What's your feel for this series, brother? I don't have a feel for it either, because Chuck went on a limb. And as you can't tell, I am watching inside the NBA all the time now, just for nostalgia, we're not going to have it no more. So I got this iteration of it. So I'm just always watching now. But after game two, Chuck said they were championship contenders after the OKC was. After that. After that win. And I like, yes, in theory, obviously, they're championship contenders, but that was just one game, right? Like, they were still the bag Fumblers in game one, and they're going back to Denver, which is a hard place. To play. And I do know that Michael Porter Jr. Has been struggling, and I do know all of that, that, that Murray struggled. And it just seemed like a game where they just got blitzed really early and they couldn't recover from it. But Denver is a very hard place to play. And I just. I don't know. I. I don't. I don't know what's going to happen in game three, Roger. I don't have a. I don't have a fucking clip.

[Raja Bell]

I wouldn't take anything away from that game. Yeah, I mean, Denver's also the type of team with enough experience to basically put it in a neutral a third of the way into that game.

[Logan Murdoch]

When you hear, we ain't got it.

[Raja Bell]

This is never gonna. We'll never pull out of this hole. So, you know, you stop really competing.

[Logan Murdoch]

When do you run cardio in that? When do you run cardio in. In that? In those type of games, it's like.

[Raja Bell]

Like, I mean, that one, that one, it was earlier because they had 80 points at the hat. It was like. What was the halftime score, bro?

[Logan Murdoch]

It was like 40 to like 15 when I turned it on. Because I turned on a little late and I was like, God damn. Well, I guess I'm not watching the rest of this game.

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, well, I was. I was there early, so I was watching it until it got just completely out of hand. And it looked like they shut it down early, like second. Some point in the second quarter. I mean, I know they came out in the third quarter and everyone's going to come out in the third quarter and say, hey, we're going to give it the old college bullshit. You ain't look so locked into me. What I would say about that series moving forward is a game like that, which you could take away from it if you're okc. Nothing for Denver, Nothing. There's nothing but for okc. That is the monkey off of your back from game one. If you're saying. Telling me exactly what a doctor would prescribe for what? For a remedy to what happened in game one, it would be what happened in game two. Beat the brakes off of them. Everybody get involved. Everybody get a taste. An absolute route, like, just drill them. And I think that takes a little weight off of their shoulders in a way, going back to Denver. Even more weight than just a regular win would have taken off.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because you could see they were timid in game one. Like they went from being the 68 win team to just the team that is one of the youngest teams in the league and ain't been there before. Right. Which is. You get it right. The lights are, by the way, Paycom center looks electric. I love those black shirts. I love how it looks like it's. It's just. It looks like a theater in there right there with like the black shirts and then the. The court going all. It just looks great. I just wanted to pay Calm center. And you're doing your thing. OKC is doing his thing in general.

[Raja Bell]

Always a great place to play.

[Logan Murdoch]

Always. Always.

[Raja Bell]

It's always.

[Logan Murdoch]

Did you play. You played in OKC before, right?

[Raja Bell]

Yeah, I mean, I don't. Have they gotten a new arena recently? Like, I don't know. I just. No. So it's the same place. Just rebranded.

[Logan Murdoch]

I.

[Raja Bell]

The. Just the fan. The OKC fan. It's always a great place to play.

[Logan Murdoch]

And they're on top of you. I only want. I've never been there for the postseason, but I've been there for a few regular season games. Not that there's much of a difference because they are loud as fuck no matter what, but it's a vibe. It's the only thing in the state. It's. It's also one of the rare places, I think. What's the other place? I think Phoenix is another place like this where the basketball team is the number one story in that region and is the number one team. It's so It's. It's pretty special when the NBA team is like that. All right, and now for our conversation with Sir Sohi. Okay. And we are here with Sirit Sohi, the host of the WNBA show. You can read her WNBA work on theringer.com Most importantly, she's my homie. How you doing, sir? Good to see you.

[Sirit Sohi]

I'm great. It's great to see you, man. How are you?

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, I'm good. We had the pre pod. The pre interview talk with Victoria and Cliff. That was. That was just off the rails and I'm still kind of recovering from that. Are you okay from. You know, what we can't say publicly here, but you know, that we heard nonetheless.

[Sirit Sohi]

I feel like it got me good to go. I'm really ready. Yeah. I think we should just use the energy.

[Logan Murdoch]

Okay.

[Sirit Sohi]

Okay.

[Logan Murdoch]

So we are here. We Full transparency. We have five questions for each other on the WNBA season that neither one of us has reviewed. Reviewed yet. Like, I don't know what sir it's going to ask and I'm kind of scared about that. So with that being said, Seared, what is your first question for Me.

[Sirit Sohi]

Wait, why are you scared?

[Logan Murdoch]

Well, I'm kind of having residual from the pre pod interview or the pre interview.

[Sirit Sohi]

You're still trying to turn that into excitement. We're still in like.

[Logan Murdoch]

I'm scared. I'm scared of Cliff though. But now I'm scared of Cliff as a person right now.

[Sirit Sohi]

It wasn't really that big of a deal.

[Logan Murdoch]

It wasn't.

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah, okay.

[Logan Murdoch]

But.

[Sirit Sohi]

Well, okay, I'm going to. I'm going to start you off with something easy because I know you were at the Sparks Valkyries preseason game, the first game in Valkyries history. Are the Sparks a top five team for you? I feel like I already know the answer to this. But that's the thing you guys like sometimes. Sometimes you ask questions that you know the answer to for the sake of content.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. The Sparks are absolutely not a top five team in the wnba. They're probably going to be a bottom five team. I am not impressed with them whatsoever. That's going to lead into my question for you at some point. So I will not talk about the trade that we will talk about in my next question. But they just seem. And I told you this when we talked on the phone, which is probably why you asked me this question, but I just think of them as just a team full of ancillary pieces and, and draft picks that I don't know if they necessarily fit necessarily on the roster. And then this, then they're in the. All in the midst of this culture shift with their new general manager. They're gonna have a lot of. I think they're gonna have a lot of struggles right this season. And no, they just traded for Kelsey Plum. And with the. I don't know if this is going to be a one year rental or if they're going to keep her long term with the, with the cap space. But I just don't see a team that is worthy of contention of any kind other than contending for the lottery series.

[Sirit Sohi]

Well, that should, that should have been what they were doing. If they really are going to be as bad as you think that they are. But I feel like they are part and parcel of a WNBA storyline that we are seeing across teams this season where everybody all of a sudden wants to be very good, very fast because they want to catch up to this moment. And I feel like LA kind of got caught with their pants down last season. No practice facility, Magic Johnson doing interviews, saying, hey, I'm gonna be better, I'm gonna be around. Then they fired.

[Logan Murdoch]

How many arenas do they play in.

[Sirit Sohi]

Sparks? My Sparks hot take is that I actually like the Long beach arena that they played in because the. I don't think that they had like. I think sometimes the overhead lighting for a lot of sporting events is just a little too glaring. And it's. It's just like it's built for television. But I really like the shadow that you saw the players casting the Long beach arena. I'm being 100 serious. I know it sounds like I'm roasting them, but it totally reminded me of like when you see those remastered old school pictures of like Wilt Chamberlain and you can like, you can see his.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. Every time in the NBA Finals.

[Sirit Sohi]

And then like, you. Then it's like his Shadow is like 10ft tall.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like every time in the NBA Finals, they do that picture. They do that picture in the NBA Finals every year where it's like the low light that it doesn't look like the arena at all, just looks like puppets playing. That's what it's like when they play in the, in the arena in Long beach, which, I mean, it would be cool if that was their home arena. Right. But like, you never know where they're going to play on a given night. They could be playing at the Galen center, they could be playing at Crypto, they could be playing at the Convention Center. They could be playing at your local high school. We don't know. Right. Which is like the, the ca. The Sparks in a nutshell, which is so. And I am a recovering Sparks fan. I think I've fully renounced my Sparks to him over the last. Over the last eight months. But you talk about last year, it wasn't just, you know, the facilities, it was the medical staff. Right. It is the. Kurt Miller just. I felt like last year he was very overwhelmed with the young roster. And you talk about people, talk to people in that locker room, and it feels like he got overwhelmed and kind of checked out that last part of the season. Then you have the Cam Brink injury and you don't know if she's coming back. I think we're hearing different things that you're here in June. I'm thinking like sometime in July, which is also like an ACL injury. You don't really want to rush it. They're just in a perpetual state of chaos right now. And that leads to my question for you, my first question. How much will the Sparks regret making the trade for Chelsea Plummet?

[Sirit Sohi]

Look, I'm not. I'm not fully ready to go there yet. I feel like we just saw her preseason debut. She has not played basketball in a very long time. She was going to play unrivaled and she dropped out of unrivaled. And I think it's just going to take her a minute to, you know, get her accuracy back, get her legs underneath her. I do think that Kelsey Plum is going to have a really good season, but I do think it's also going to be fascinating to watch how she navigates going from a franchise like the Aces and that was so competent and treated its players so well that they triggered CBA investigations to.

[Logan Murdoch]

You know, it's great when you get cba.

[Sirit Sohi]

Exactly. Like, I love that. Exactly, exactly. You know, it's great. It's kind of like, you know, you have a great accountant when the IRS is kind of knocking on your door. You know what I mean? Like, it's like too good of an accountant. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Maybe they need to be a little less good. I think it's gonna be interesting though. Like, how will she. Like, they brought her in because they know that they need a cultural lift. They know that they need an on court lift, but that's also going to require things of her that she's never had to do before. It kind of reminds me of her deciding to go to Washington instead of going to a big school. Obviously that worked out for her, but it was a big lift. And obviously everybody's a free agent in 2026. I like the rumblings are basically that when they made the trade for her, she on the low. Low was like, hey, yeah, I'm ready to commit long term. But you never know with things like this. Like, we see this play out in sports all the time where you might have some sort of agreement, but things change and all of a sudden somebody wants something different. I don't know, like, look, I think we could also be having a conversation about the sparks in August with Kambak. And you know, Kelsey's playing a lot better and she's like acclimated to the system and is like ready to be the one on one player that maybe it's a lot more positive, but I'm skeptical. And they gave up the number two pick for her, who is Dominique Malonga, who might be the rookie of the year and like a transcendent generational player. Like that's.

[Logan Murdoch]

They traded her for. For female Wimby and that's that my whole thing, right? You talk, you get the whispers out of Seattle. Like, everybody is so juiced about playing in Seattle right now, I kind of might think they're my dark horse contender Right now. We'll talk about that later. But I do love them as that as that team. Yeah. And you essentially for a one year rental of Kelsey Plum because Kelsey club could say whatever the hell she wants in May, but in October after, you know, you've been playing in in three, three or four different arenas.

[Sirit Sohi]

I do have to say I do think that that thing will be solved a little bit bit by like the Clippers moved out. They're in into it now and the Lakers aren't playing basketball right now. So I do think that they will consistently be playing at stables this or crypto this year.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. But also like even if they do play at crypto which is probably the case like as you say, like I went to a Sparks game two years ago.

[Sirit Sohi]

Oh also I have to add that the Edmonton Oilers also knocked out the LA Kings as well. Just mentioning that for no reason. So yeah, they don't have to worry about the NHL as well. Just wanted to throw that in there. Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

Okay.

[Sirit Sohi]

Won four straight games after going down 02 and I was just hearing a lot of stuff so I just wanted to throw that in there.

[Logan Murdoch]

Okay. For sure. I don't know how many hockey fans are real ones, but anywho, what I was going to say though is even if they do play a crypto all season, they're always playing when crypto is getting renovated. Like two years ago when I went there, there were holes in the, in the lower bowl. Like they're like it was just like in yellow tape. It was roped off. Right. I couldn't like it was. It was very depressing to go to a Sparks game and I'm sorry we got Victoria on the line and you know, I know she's. This is just making her depressed by the second but I don't know what the future of the Sparks really holds. Right. Because you're coming into this in theory a team in LA should be a, you know, a more especially with the history of the Sparks should be more than what they are right now as a legacy franchise. They should have theoretically all the resources to get what they need done. But I don't see like a sustainable at this point sustainable home arena for them that they can call their own where they're never going to be like the first tenant but maybe they'll, you know, maybe be have more of a favorable arena deal like all these other teams. I don't think they're ever going to going to have that. And then they're just now trying to get a practice facility which a Team like the Sparks. Resources should have been tried to invest in this, but I digress. And you go down the line to see where the W is going, how much they're big, how much bigger they're getting. I feel like the Sparks are going to win and be one of those teams that get left in the dust if they don't get their act together really quickly.

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah, I agree with you completely. And I think the Kelsey Plum trade was them trying to fast track this thing and we'll see how it goes. You ready for my second question?

[Logan Murdoch]

I don't know.

[Sirit Sohi]

There's only one way to find out who's going to be the breakout star of the WNBA season.

[Logan Murdoch]

I know your answer to this question. Let me see. Who do. I don't know.

[Sirit Sohi]

If you do.

[Logan Murdoch]

Breakout star. I'm gonna go with Dominique, man. I think that's the. I think. Isn't she already the breakout star right now? They just got the video of her dunking in Seattle. Star. I think I'm gonna. I think I'm gonna put my money on her.

[Sirit Sohi]

I like it. I like it. Look, dom is only 19 years old, so we'll see how it looks. I think that long term, definitely, if she can be. I think Seattle's in a really interesting spot too, because if she can be good right away, then they can be contenders because they already got Neca, they got Skyler, and they made a big three last year in the hopes of contending for a title. Now, obviously, things went south with Jewel Lloyd, who is now with the Las Vegas Aces, but they traded what they got the pick back for her. Right. And I think if you're those players, like, there's a degree to which if Dominique is not right away who you need her to be, they might be looking at the Seattle front office being like, hey, so we actually came here to contend for titles and you guys drafted a 19 year old. So I'm kind of like, they have. They could go both directions for me because they have a lot of picks as well, and I think that they'll need to use them if they actually want to contend. I think they need more shooting. They actually do need to, like, replace.

[Logan Murdoch]

Remind me a lot of the Rockets this year, right? Where this team that is very young, that is. Has some veterans. But like, when you think about veterans, again, ancillary pieces, and they seem like they can overachieve in that moment. And after that attractive free agent to come to Seattle, like, I know everybody on this call is Team Seattle. I love that city. I would live There if I could. Right. Like, it's a great place to live.

[Sirit Sohi]

I love Sunlight.

[Logan Murdoch]

Built in legacy. All right, well, I forgot. I thought you were my email best friend. I guess that's not the case.

[Sirit Sohi]

That's why I need. I need the balance. I need the balance. Like, if you're.

[Logan Murdoch]

If.

[Sirit Sohi]

Like, if you have, like, a jacket.

[Logan Murdoch]

But Seattle in the summertime is amazing. Seattle in the summertime is amazing.

[Sirit Sohi]

Like, I would not be in a good spot. There's already too much going on inside here. I need vitamin D.

[Logan Murdoch]

Fair enough. But. But I do think that they're. They're on the rise, and I think they can play both ways. Right. But. And they can play out both ways. Right. They can have the veteran core and compete for titles, while they could have the two timeline.

[Sirit Sohi]

You know, I was just about to say, you know all about the two timeline experience and how great it goes.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah. So, I mean, I think. So who is your breakout star? Who do you have?

[Sirit Sohi]

Wait, who did you think I had?

[Logan Murdoch]

Well, I mean, if I look at you, who you're writing about every other week, it could be Caitlin Clark. And based on our phone conversation, 30 minutes of that was spent on how Caitlin Clark is about to be the goat this year. But I don't want to mess up any other questions that you have.

[Sirit Sohi]

So I actually wasn't gonna go with Caitlin, but I think that's actually a funner answer than what I was gonna go with. So I'll just go with. Well, I was gonna go with Ryan Howard.

[Logan Murdoch]

Okay.

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah. Cause, like, to me, because. Only because Caitlin is already a star. She does not need to break out.

[Logan Murdoch]

All right. That's not fun anymore. So to do the Caitlin Clark one. What's the Caitlin one?

[Sirit Sohi]

Well, the Caitlin one is, like. Is, like, clear. Like, she was averaging, like, 23 and 9 through the course of the last 15 games last season. We all saw how much work she put into getting stronger this season. I just think that she's going to be so much more in command. I think that her being in this Steph White offense that, like, prioritizes movement, it's going to look a lot like it looked like in Iowa. I think the pieces that they got around her, it's just going to be so much harder to trap her. Even if they do get the ball down to Aaliyah Boston, you can get it down to Natasha Howard. They can make plays with it. And they've got shooters. Kelsey Mitchell is back. I think she's going to be a year improved as well. I just. You Know, I feel. I feel really high on the Indiana Fever. And I think that Caitlin actually got rest, too. Like, last year, she went. She came into the W. Like, Paige is coming in, like, played in the national title game, and then just had to, like, go straight into it. Yeah. Got the Olympic break, which, like, these rookies won't get. So that'll be kind of interesting to see how that goes. But, I mean, I just think it's. I think the case is quite clear and obvious.

[Logan Murdoch]

Like, so when I think about the fever and I think about Caitlin Clark, I think about. I. After our conversation a couple days ago, I was very ready to anoint them, but I do believe that I'm curious to see how they do go through growing pains. Right. And when. I mean growing pains in the postseason. I know they had their postseason experienced last year, but I'm curious to see, like, how they do say, if they are number one or a number two seed, if they get to that point or become a top five seed, how are they going to go through the rigors of their first playoff birth? Similar, like, how OKC is going through right now. Right where they are. How do they respond to being the best? And that's what I'm curious to see. And I think there's going to be some growing pains that go there. I don't think they win the title necessarily this year.

[Sirit Sohi]

I don't think so either.

[Logan Murdoch]

I think they scare the living daylight out of somebody while they're trying to figure it out. And I think that's. I think that's where they are right now. And I'm excited to see what they do in October. But you made it a damn good, compelling case about the fever and almost to the point where I almost picked him to win it.

[Sirit Sohi]

I think about it. I think about it every day.

[Logan Murdoch]

You want to do it? You're playing double Dutch. You're just scared right now. You want to do it.

[Sirit Sohi]

You want to say, I'm scared of. Well, I was going to ask. I can ask you your title picks. Like, that was definitely going to be.

[Logan Murdoch]

We'll do that. We'll do that at the end.

[Sirit Sohi]

Okay. Okay.

[Logan Murdoch]

So I have a question for you that's building off of Caitlin Clark since we. We both brought her up. This might get us in trouble, but I'm just going to ask a question anyway. Do you buy Angel Reese as a formidable foe for Caitlin Clark for the rest of their careers?

[Sirit Sohi]

No. No. I mean, and it's like, I also, like, I hate having this conversation where we compare angel and Caitlin all the time. Because I actually, it's.

[Logan Murdoch]

I feel like it's so lazy.

[Sirit Sohi]

It's lazy. They're not. They're not similar players at all, by any means. And I think that I actually. I think. I think angel is gonna have a fantastic season. I think that what Chicago and Tyler Marsh is doing with her, moving her out into the perimeter, keying into her, like, latent playmaking skills that, like, just don't have never really been utilized since she went to lsu, definitely were not utilized last year. I think using her is, like, just like, simple stuff. Like, oh, she's. She could end up being the greatest rebounder basketball has ever seen. So when she gets the ball out of the basket, she can handle the ball and run the break, things like that. That will allow her to get to the foul line more so that even if she doesn't improve her layups, which I do think she will, she'll still be more efficient down low if she's getting to the line because she's a good free throw shooter and she's got good touch. And I think that that area that they're putting her in, she's just a really fascinating player in that, like, she does struggle with finishing, but I think she actually has, like, pretty solid potential with her jumper, which makes her a fascinating player to think about. I hate thinking about her in the context of comparing her to Caitlin Clark. Like, that's just not fair to anybody. It's not going to be fair to Paige. It's not going to be fair to the only player it's ever going to be fair to. Like, in this young crop is, like, when Juju eventually is in the wnba. She's the only player that I think that you can actually.

[Logan Murdoch]

Where's. Where's juju going? Where did you predict Juju?

[Sirit Sohi]

Oh, I. Future Toronto tempo. Juju Watkins. Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

Go to say, Valkyrie. Okay. Over here.

[Sirit Sohi]

The Golden State's going to be too good. Do you hear? Natalie Nikase wants to compete right away, and I think that's great. I think that they should be trying to be. Have you seen the rosters better than Toronto Tempo by 2027 is where I have them slated.

[Logan Murdoch]

I want to get back to Andrew Reese. We'll talk about Golden State Valkyries in a second and, like, just free agency as a whole. But I just don't. I do think it's unfair because I think there was the. Just because of black and white. They wanted to make the. They wanted to make the magic Larry Bird comparison.

[Sirit Sohi]

Not actually watching Kathy Engelbert straight up said it, which was insane.

[Logan Murdoch]

It's just I, Kathy Engelberg, we would talk about her. We could have a whole other podcast or maybe we'll talk about her mid season. But I don't think overall that Angel Reese has the game of a number one. And I think that that's just the thing that's just going to hinder her from being the formidable foe for Caitlyn or anyone for that matter. Right. Because I feel like people that were in her position, you think about or even the people that she was compared to. Right. Like she was compared to Asia Wilson was, I think was a wild comp considering like Angel Wilson was had such a refined offensive game coming into the league. Because I feel like angel is going to be working on her offensive game for the most part. And you even said it yourself in your and thing that you wrote on I forgot a couple weeks ago, just about how could she could be Dennis Rodman. Right. And that would be great for a team, but Dennis Rodman couldn't carry you on offense and was more of an ancillary piece. I think that once, I think Angel Reese can be that at some point. I just don't know if her offensive game will mature enough to get to the point where she could be relied on down the stretch of playoff games year in and year out. I just don't see it right now.

[Sirit Sohi]

Well, that's, yeah, that's not, I think, the way that you want to be building for her anyways. Right. Like, I do think that you should be focusing on the defensive end and all the things that she's good at. Another player that I think of as Draymond as well, especially if she does.

[Logan Murdoch]

And also another person that is not a number one.

[Sirit Sohi]

Right, Exactly. And not somebody like it's, it's kind of like it's like if you were to compare Draymond and Steph, like why would you. What, what, what do we even learn from that type of basketball conversation when in reality, like those two are incredible complimentary players next to each other because of how different they are. And I think part of the struggle with this is like there is no angel comparison. She is such a unique player in terms of her high level strengths and also her high level weaknesses as well, that it's really difficult to talk about her in a way that compares her to anybody else. But in reality, like if you're thinking about down the stretch of games, like it's probably the offense should be running through Camila Cardoso, who has the potential to be an incredible post player and also a great playmaker as well. And then you have your shooters and Ariel Atkins.

[Logan Murdoch]

What a walkie roster that Chicago.

[Sirit Sohi]

Haley Van Liss though. Honestly man, I really, I believe in Haley Van Lith. I really feel like she, she could be their future guard. Maybe not this season, but I think that like she'll come off the bench this season. I think she'll have some, a couple performances that really make us go wow. And then like dirtier Haley Van Lith. I, I, I'm looking forward to that.

[Logan Murdoch]

I understand. I don't like the roster setup at all. It was just like, just a lot of, and a lot of turnover as well. Like we'll see.

[Sirit Sohi]

I didn't love the trade. That's another trade I didn't love. Especially because I mean Sonia Citron just looks so good. They could have had her with the number three pick and she would have been perfect as like their future lead.

[Logan Murdoch]

Guard but had the front office. Hasn't been really great since Candace left, to be honest with you. I mean it's just since that championship run. They've kind of been downhill since then and it hasn't really been that much continuous and like they had half the team leave them last year.

[Sirit Sohi]

It's, I like what they did this season though. What did you, what did you not like about this season? I didn't love the area Atkins trade but I like understand it also didn't.

[Logan Murdoch]

Love the fact that they, they got rid of the coach that angel wanted to have. Right. Like if you, if you invest in your franchise star.

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah. You know like I said, like I. Sorry, go ahead.

[Logan Murdoch]

No, go ahead. What's up? Go ahead.

[Sirit Sohi]

Look like I think on a rah rah speeches level and like you know making being a players coach and like making players believe. I think Teresa Weatherspoon was an incredible coach for them. You know, I think that she connected with her players on an emotional level, on a game plan level, on like a running practices level. I just don't think that she was like really up to the task. And I think that on some level what Chicago's goal is going to be this year is like maintaining that identity that they found of like we don't care what anybody thinks of us. We're going to be like this hard nosed defensive team but also trying to like professionalize and I do think Tyler Morse is a guy for that. I think T. Spoon was just a little, she was just a little inexperienced. Like she just didn't have like Mark Jackson, Steve Carr a Little bit.

[Logan Murdoch]

I think it was a little too early, though.

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah. Yeah. But I actually like that comparison where, like, yeah, like, Steph didn't love it when Mark Jackson was fired, but at the same time, it was the best thing that ever happened for his career.

[Logan Murdoch]

Absolutely. We're on you right now. What's your next question?

[Sirit Sohi]

Do we get to a point where the W starts to show any public frustration with unrivaled old.

[Logan Murdoch]

You kind of took mine. We'll just combine this question because I had will un Rival overtake the W as the prominent women's sports league in five years. But, you know, I think we're about a. I think we're about a year away. And also, don't. Don't. Don't underestimate the friction between Unrivaled and Athletes Unlimited, by the way, too.

[Sirit Sohi]

Oh, interesting.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, there's. There's some beef there as well.

[Sirit Sohi]

Oh, really?

[Logan Murdoch]

That. Yeah, absolutely.

[Sirit Sohi]

Do Go on. Do go on. Okay.

[Logan Murdoch]

No, because, I mean, Athletes Unlimited started out as what Unrivaled became. Right. Like, and instead of. And then I think there's a lot of pushback because. And I understand why this happened, but there's a lot of pushback. Like, why didn't you invest in us like, we were athletes. Athletes Unlimited is like, well, why didn't you invest in us and make us the sports league, considering we were here first and we had the W and we put out the model? And I understand why Unrival was like. And the people around arrivals, like, no, we want our own stuff, because Athletes Unlimited is a part of a bigger conglomerate of, like, volleyball and other different types of sports. But there is a bit of friction between those leagues. And I think that that's another thing that could bubble to the surface as well. I mean, because essentially Unrivaled is taking athletes or trying to get Athletes Unlimited out of business. Right. So that's going to be an interesting thing. The W. It depends, because the fact of the matter is they're still going. They're going to be criticizing their own players, and there's a delicate balance that you have to have. It's one thing to criticize another league for taking your players, like Allah, like, live pga. But, like, how, in the middle of a CBA negotiations, how much do you want to piss off, like, Brianna Stewart and Nafisa Collier right now? Yeah, I don't think you want to do that. So there's a delicate balance. I think there might be, like, some subtle petty shade, but I don't think it's going to go full on in. Full go. What do you think?

[Sirit Sohi]

I think. Well, that's, that's a similar question to what we're going to be facing with CBA negotiations as well. If it does ever get like, to a point where it's contentious. The W does have to ask itself, well, how bad do we want to make our players look in a moment when public opinion is turning, but it's still very fragile and is also, I think, going to look very different with, with women negotiating for more money as well. Like, we already kind of see some of the narratives that come out around like, the W and, and like, oh, these players want more money, but the league doesn't actually make money. And it's like way more nuanced in that, especially in this moment where, like, I just don't think you could, like, I think that conversation is a little bit outdated, but it's kind of, I mean, it's, it's sort of the similar, similar sort of issue. Right? Like, those two things are very, very tied in together, which makes it so, so fascinating for me. Like, Nafisa is also a VP on the Players association. And, and they've, they've talked about, hey, we do think that unrivaled is going to be a factor in CBA negotiations. So I think that everything ended up being like, really, really well timed for the players. I do think we've already seen a little bit of like, not subtle, like shade, but like a little bit of like. Kathy Engelbert was asked about Unrivaled at the. Where was Oppressor? I think it was before the draft and she like, she was asked about, like, you know, why were. Well, it was actually. So this was. Let's backtrack a little bit because I think Unrivaled has been really savvy with their press releases and drops and stuff. Like going back to free agency, where players are announcing where they're going to in the NBA in the WNBA season on Unrivaled, like, while they're doing their media appearances for Unrivaled. So if you're writing about WNBA free agency, if you're writing about Brittney Griner going to the Atlanta Dream, for example.

[Logan Murdoch]

You have to basically going to the Merch.

[Sirit Sohi]

You have to cite unrivaled. And that's like complicated, I think for ESPN too, because unrivaled is a TNT property as well. So there's like a whole bunch of things going on there. But then the night, the day before the draft, on a Sunday, on a Sunday night, it's leaked that Paige is going to be joining unrivaled as a player, not just as an investor. And that she's going to be making more money in her first year than she'll make over the course of her four year rookie contract. So naturally Kathy Engelbert in a press conference that she is trying to win because she just wants to talk about how the league is growing. One of the first questions she's asked about is hey, what do you think about the fact that Paige is going to make more money? And she basically says look like the league has way less overhead. They play in one spot, it's 36 players, it's 10 weeks. Like it's just way less costly. And I think that's, that's not necessarily shade, that's a fact. But it was the first sort of like public moment where I felt like I saw Kathy look a little bit annoyed that she was being asked about Unrivaled.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, I mean it's kind of the USFL NFL type thing, right. Where there's two rival leagues and two different seasons. Or it could be like the NBA and aba. Like I don't know.

[Sirit Sohi]

I think that's what it really reminds me of. It's sort of like the ABA kid came in and just made the NBA get their shit together. And it's a reason that the NBA has a three point line.

[Logan Murdoch]

Well, do you, do you think that, do you think that there is going to be a merger at some point of unrivaled in.

[Sirit Sohi]

Oh, that would be interesting. I guess you would need like the Julius Irving, you know, you would need the player. I think though that I think.

[Logan Murdoch]

How about a Juju Watkins?

[Sirit Sohi]

Ooh, I like that. I like that. Dr. Juju. I feel like it's more healthy competition than anything else because the WNBA season is so short. It actually kind of needs unrivaled to be able to keep its players in the limelight like through like.

[Logan Murdoch]

Well, not even just that though, like.

[Sirit Sohi]

Seven months that we're just not playing well.

[Logan Murdoch]

The people that you talk to around the league also, I mean obviously the money is good and everything like that, but there was one of the reasons why even Athletes Unlimited like popped up is because for women's basketball there's no dedicated runs specifically for women in the off season.

[Sirit Sohi]

They're just exactly.

[Logan Murdoch]

They got. They have to go on, you know, play in a dudes league or there's no.

[Sirit Sohi]

Just go overseas. Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

Or go overseas which is being more and more complicated by diplomacy over the last few years. But that's something that they, they needed, I think, even just to stay fresh in the off season. Right. And, and why not make some bread on top of that? It's going to be interesting, the relationship between the two leagues. And especially like this second year is going to be like, is Asia Wilson going to play this year coming up? Right. Like, that's another big question. And it's just, it's, it's, it's just going to be fascinating. We'll see what happens. Who is your dark horse contender? I kind of like, you know, I pump Fake Mine, but who is your.

[Sirit Sohi]

Dark horse dark horse contender?

[Logan Murdoch]

Your guilty pleasure contender?

[Sirit Sohi]

Guilty pleasure contender. I don't, I don't know that I have one. Honestly, I could make one up, but I truly feel like there are three contenders in the WNBA this season and I don't feel like anybody else is going to be.

[Logan Murdoch]

Who's your WNBA league pass love affair.

[Sirit Sohi]

Who's my league pass love affair? Oh, okay. All right. This, this I can get into a little bit more. I feel like the Sparks are definitely going to be up there. I feel like they're going to be a really fun team to watch on the offensive end. I don't think they're going like, that's what's going to make them fun. I think they're going to play with a lot of pace. I think they're going to shoot a lot of threes. I think they're going to get a lot of points on the board and I don't think that they're going to really be able to defend anybody.

[Logan Murdoch]

They gave up, they gave up 82 points to the Valkyries, which was nuts.

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah, to the Valkyries in their first game ever. And like after a first half in which they were like, like they had to go into that first half, into the second half and be like, don't be discouraged, you guys. Like the Valkyries did so. Yeah, not, not the best showing. I think Azrae Stevens had a few nice blocks, but they need Cameron Brink to get back asap. And then once Cam is back, the defense gets better. But we also get to watch second year Cameron Brink, who was, who was one of my favorite league pass players last year because she was doing so much more than she did in college. Like she was making plays from the three point line. Like she was driving from like way up. Like she was just a lot of fun. We got some corner threes. We got more playmaking. I think she's a really fun player. So as much as I don't like really Necessarily believe in the sparks as.

[Logan Murdoch]

A lot of sparks talk today.

[Sirit Sohi]

A lot of sparks talk? Yeah, a lot of sparks talk. I do, I do feel like they're going to be really fun to watch.

[Logan Murdoch]

You know, I'm going to go with Seattle. I can't wait to watch them play when they come out here in the Bay. WNBA basketball in the Bay Area is like amazing. You got to pull up to the Chase center, like it's.

[Sirit Sohi]

I'm coming. How was, how was the atmosphere? What was it like?

[Logan Murdoch]

It was crazy. 17,000 for a preseason game. It looked like it was the first time I saw that many people at a W game. And I've been going since to W game since I was about 8 years old. And I remember going. It reminded me of when I used to go to the Sacramento Monarchs games back at Sac where it would be the whole arena popping and the fans were engaged, the merch lines were out of this world. One of my homies was, was trying to get a jacket and was like, and she's a season ticket holder. And she was like, I'm just gonna get him in the, in the mid season. This is just too much. She's, she's an older woman in her 60s. She was like, I'm not doing this because it's ridiculous. But no, it was, it was great. It was awesome. Now shout out to my homegirl DJ Shell Hart, who held it down with the music, really tapped in. They had a hyphae cam and they turned all the lights out and they did a call out for all the cities in the Bay Area. And it was popping all that to say I can't wait to see the Seattle Storm play because just how locked in they are. They remind me of a lot of like we said the Rockets, but also like those what, those old school Atlanta Hawks teams who were like, really good, but you knew they weren't going to do anything. But they were really fun to watch in the regular season.

[Sirit Sohi]

So which ones? Like the Joe Johnson ones or like.

[Logan Murdoch]

The Joe Johnson ones?

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[Logan Murdoch]

And like the Jeff Teague ones as well. Like the Al Horford teams. The Coach Bud teams.

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah, the Coach Bud teams are a little bit different because I feel like people believed in them. I personally definitely didn't. But there was like the whole like, oh, they're, they're changing the game like five out analytics. And I was like, wow. I don't know if Kyle Corba is really an all star, guys. I think the system.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yeah, okay. It's got weird. Okay. Anyway, last question. That I have.

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

Last question I got for you.

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

With the new cba, who is going to be. Which teams are going to be helped the most by this new CBA in terms of this. Free agents. A future free agent. Who you think is going to be hurt by it?

[Sirit Sohi]

Well, anybody who's willing to spend money, I think, is going to be helped by it. Absolutely. I think we're going to.

[Logan Murdoch]

Sorry, Connecticut.

[Sirit Sohi]

Sorry, Connecticut. Yeah. I do think.

[Logan Murdoch]

Sorry, Sparks.

[Sirit Sohi]

I think it's kind of weird. Like, I feel like the Sparks are going to want to try to be big players in free agency down the line. I do feel like that's part of the reason they made this move, is they want to show off to people. It's kind of like when you draw attention to yourself in a moment of insecurity, and you kind of realize that was actually the worst thing you could have done, in my opinion.

[Logan Murdoch]

But are you talking about my whole life? Sorry. Damn. Why are you coming at me?

[Sirit Sohi]

It's crazy. I was projecting. Yeah. I think that anybody's willing to spend money. I think it's going to be great for New York. I think it's going to be great for Las Vegas. I think it'll be great for Indiana. I think. Well, also, it'll be great for, like, a lot of the teams that players, like, want to go and play for. Right. I think we saw this pass free agency, Phoenix, with that ISHBA money and just knowing where their facilities have already been at, players want to go play there. I think players want to go play in Indiana because their stats and, you know, the. The extra lucrative, like, opportunities and everything that comes with, like, being part of that organization right now. And then, like, I would say, probably be. It's like, with Chicago, it's gonna depend on how much they're willing to spend. I really feel like they should be going all in right now. They have an interesting thing going on where their practice facility has been delayed, but also because they want to make upgrades for it, which just feels like, to me, like, the perfect metaphor for, like, all of these teams trying to catch up right now. I think it's gonna be great for my Toronto temple, personally, because, look, they're not gonna have the problems that Toronto Canadian teams have historically have had with attracting players to come and play. Like, you don't have to worry about the cold, because there's one thing, you know, like, you've been.

[Logan Murdoch]

You've been to Toronto.

[Sirit Sohi]

You've been to Toronto in June, the WNBA times. Carabana. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? WNBA players in Toronto in August.

[Logan Murdoch]

You do not have to convince me to go to Toronto from June to the end of September because it is just. It's. It's. I love it. I love it. I didn't want to leave. I was very upset with the warriors that they didn't go to the KM7 because it probably was better for my elder that they didn't go back to Toronto because I would have never left. I probably wouldn't be here right now, but I already forgot it. I already forgot it. What's that again? Stop playing with me. Stop playing. We're not doing this on this side. We're not doing this on this side anyways. That would lead to my life.

[Sirit Sohi]

I can't believe I got to get that off here. I'm so happy.

[Logan Murdoch]

Right? They really not like us, Cliff. They really not like us. Who is your. Who is your champion?

[Sirit Sohi]

Oh, Minnesota. Minnesota. I think they're gonna do it.

[Logan Murdoch]

They're not gonna cry for fouls. They're not. If they. If they were, they were.

[Sirit Sohi]

They were dropped. Like, I don't know what. Like Kathy was wearing. You saw Kathy's dress? You saw Kathy's dress. Come on.

[Logan Murdoch]

Oh, my God. Come on. We're not gonna do the WNBA experience. Conspiracy theories. They were crying and, like, I don't think.

[Sirit Sohi]

Look, I don't think it's a conspiracy.

[Logan Murdoch]

Let them be tougher.

[Sirit Sohi]

This is actually gets into something that the W needs to figure out more than they need to figure out anything else, which is their reffing problem. There is a story in si. Nafisa Collier did a story in SI where, you know, she talked about that, the whole thing, the experience, and she's kind of over in the sense of complaining about it, but she knows it's going to be something that bothers her for the rest of her career, and she's going to use that as fuel. And that terrifies me. It should terrify the rest of the league. But one thing that they did talk about is consistency of reffing across the league, which is a huge problem. The WNBA needs to fix that. Like, Brett Clark, Caitlin's dad, talked about it in, like, one of the few interviews I've ever seen him do. It's not just like, I think. I think. I think that it's an issue beyond, like. But, like, before, you know, Caitlin came along and all of that. But it is truly an issue, and it does need to be. It does need to be fixed. Yeah, I think it's going to be Minnesota. I think that they're hungry. They're hungry than anybody else. They went to game five last year. They added some nice pieces. I think that Courtney Williams just. I think, is going to take love.

[Logan Murdoch]

Courtney Williams.

[Sirit Sohi]

I think Caleb Brad is going to take a leap. I think Nafisa Collier is going to take a leap. And all these players that, like, kind of came in last year, they had the misfit team last year. Now they all know their roles. They know what they're supposed to be doing. I think they're going to level up.

[Logan Murdoch]

I want to pick Minnesota, but you already picked them, so I'm going to pick New York. I don't. And that's a great opportunity to talk about Vegas, which is. Feels like they're not necessarily on their last legs, but they're getting there. They're almost there with this iteration of the roster. Right. They're going to eventually have to regroup around Asia, obviously, but I love Chelsea, but she's towards the end of her career. Jewel Lloyd is really good, but I just. I. It feels like they're almost about to max out, so I'm gonna pick the. I'm gonna pick the Liberty.

[Sirit Sohi]

In a reaction, I feel like. I mean, so far, preseason and also unrivaled, Chelsea Gray has looked like she's back to being what we are normally used to. With Chelsea Gray, I think Jackie Young has taken a leap to the Jewel Lloyd. I don't think Jewel Lloyd is as going to be as good of a fit as Kelsey Plum is in this offense because of her tendency to just kind of want to freestyle every once in a while, I think. I think. Yeah, I think sometimes you got to make the pass to the corner, you know, especially with the way that that offense functions around Asia.

[Logan Murdoch]

What about, you know, staggered minutes? Make it work that way. He plays against second units a lot and then, you know, balls out that way.

[Sirit Sohi]

Sure. No, I mean, hey, look, it's fine. It's like. It's. It's. I don't think she's gonna have a good season. I think she's gonna have a much better season than she had last year. I don't think it's gonna be like 2023, though. And I just feel like they kind of just broke out even and are hoping that their star is being healthy and rejuvenated on the perimeter is gonna be enough for them. But I feel like Asia just kind of needs more help in the front court as well. I think they just, like, put way too much on her, and I just don't think that they have a very good bench. So I agree with you. I just kind of wanted to say that I feel like the stars are going to be back, but I still think that they have issues for sure.

[Logan Murdoch]

No, doesn't have issues. Me and you, man, let's. That was a great episode. I was whack. Yo. Cut that out.

[Sirit Sohi]

Keep it in. I want people to see his essence. Logan's. Logan's really earnest. I don't know if he gets, like, super earnest on this podcast, but Logan's.

[Logan Murdoch]

I can't. I got. You bring it out of me. I can't do it on with Howard and Ryan. I got to be locked in at all times. I got to be. You know, I got to really have a. A strong. You got a sense of curmudgeonism.

[Sirit Sohi]

Yeah.

[Logan Murdoch]

That was seared. So he. You can catch her at the ringer and catch her every Tuesday on the WNBA show.

[Raja Bell]

Happy Mother's Day to any mothers that might be out there listening. Happy Mother's Day to mine, my wife, my sister, my mother in law, my sister in law think I come.

[Logan Murdoch]

All right. You ain't get no gifts. That's why y pandering.

[Raja Bell]

We're going. Hey, listen, bro. That's my afternoon, man. That is my afternoon.

[Logan Murdoch]

I. I understand. I understand. Let's. Let's. Let's get you out of here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Vibes, your mom. All of them. My bad.

[Raja Bell]

But all. Everybody, bro. Happy Mother's Day.

[Logan Murdoch]

Yep. Gang. All right. It's been another edition. I want to do ruin of the week, but I don't have any because we don't really do Friday ones. But I don't really. Do we have it.

[Raja Bell]

I'm gonna do a real one of the week. Shout out to my young buck, Ty Bell, who made ESPN top 25 for the first releasing of the 2028. That's my real one of the week.

[Logan Murdoch]

All right. I'm gonna do a real one in the week. Shout out to my Neph Ty for getting on ESP at top 25.

[Raja Bell]

Yes, sir. Well done.

[Logan Murdoch]

Shout out to Neff and he's not going to temple. Cliff, calm the down. Get the hell out of the chat. Stop playing. Relax. Calm down. You have to say that.

[Raja Bell]

Just saying. Who knows?

[Logan Murdoch]

Get down Staley back at the temple. Right, Cliff, get her back and then we'll figure it out. We'll see what's up. Cliff. Cliff, we got the bag. Relax. That has been another edition of real ones. Shout out to all the affiliates, out to all the homies, all the shits make sure you talk to or make sure you tap into realwoodsmailback gmail.com realm.com real onesmailbag gmail.com Howard will be back Tuesday. Wait, no, he's back Friday. I don't know when the hell he's be back. Just realwithsmail [e-mail]. we'll see what happens. I don't know what the hell is going on with the show. I'm loopy. It's Friday. Give me a break. All this shit's bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rghelp.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.