Beasts of the East | Ringer NBA Show

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Beasts of the East" | Ringer NBA Show (August 6, 2026)

Overview

This special edition episode of the Ringer NBA Show features an in-depth power ranking of the 2026-27 NBA Eastern Conference. With hosts Kyle Mann and Michael Pina, the discussion unpacks off-season moves, roster changes, coaching hires, and overall vibes for each team—emphasizing the conference’s newfound volatility and unpredictability. The tone is conversational, analytical, and often playful, with the hosts challenging each other's assessments and tossing out memorable takes.

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Main Theme/Purpose

The core topic is a team-by-team, bottom-to-top power ranking of the Eastern Conference heading into the 2026–27 NBA season. The hosts use a balance of statistical insight, narrative, subjective "vibes," and chemistry projections to make their list—acknowledging bold moves, potential pitfalls, and which franchises might surprise or disappoint.

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Detailed Breakdown & Key Discussion Points

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Intro: Vibes, Hats, and Defining Power Rankings (00:13–05:25)

• The hosts start with light banter about wearing Detroit hats—and the flexibility of sporting fandom in major cities.
• Discuss the concept of "power ranking" vs. pure rankings:
  • "Power ranking: not results based... It's alchemy versus science, wouldn't you say?" — Kyle (04:20)
  • Michael agrees: "A lot of vibe influence. We're basically going off of no data or information here because we are projecting..." (04:57)
• They stress the historic volatility in the East, with star movement, major injuries last season, and healthy returns dictating a shake-up.

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15th: Milwaukee Bucks (07:39–12:25)

• Pina's pick: "I have the Milwaukee Bucks."
• Both hosts agree the roster feels rudderless post-Giannis, with a "bunch of dudes, but no dudes" (Kyle, 12:25).
• Uncertainty about ball-handling, defense, and the ceiling of young players.
• Notable Quote: "It's just going to be a tough year... I would still say stock down. One of the more depressing situations in the league right now." — Pina (11:57)

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14th: Chicago Bulls (13:21–18:30)

• Mutual agreement: Chicago Bulls at 14.
• New front office led by Bryson Graham, new hope with rookie Caleb Wilson.
• Norm Powell and Josh Giddey highlighted as trade candidates/flex pieces.
• Notable Quote: "Norm Powell's contract was like signed to trade. That was the intent." — Pina (15:15)
• Caleb Wilson’s potential: compared (cautiously) to Kevin Garnett; highs and lows expected.
  • “If they’re bad this year, it’s going to be a lot more carefree than in the past.” — Kyle (20:49)

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13th: Washington Wizards (21:09–28:57)

• Pina places Wizards 13th, noting messy roster construction, questionable signings (Trey Young, Anthony Davis, Chris Middleton), and unclear direction.
• "I have no idea what this team is doing... If you gave truth serum to people in that organization, they would say, ‘We would not have done that if we knew we were getting the number one overall pick.’” — Pina (21:19)
• Concerns about logjams for young prospects and forced veteran/youth mix.
• Notable Quote: “They tried to unnaturally rush the process here… ended up eating up all their cap space this summer as well.” — Pina (25:55)
• Rookie AJ Dybonsa gets Tatum comps (Kyle, 28:57).

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12th: Brooklyn Nets (29:26–34:18)

• Pina's pick: Brooklyn Nets at 12.
• Admiration for head coach Jordi Fernández and young talent Jaeger Geemen, but skeptical of the Julius Randle trade.
• “Julius Randle... spunky but fatally flawed team. That's his basketball destiny to me.” — Pina (29:39)
• Michael Porter Jr., Josh Jefferson, and Mikal Brown as players to watch.
• “They were so bad last year, so... they definitely got better.” — Pina (34:02)

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11th: Miami Heat — The Big Shock (35:15–46:44)

• Pina's big twist: Miami Heat at 11.
• Huge skepticism about the Giannis-Bam fit, lack of depth and shooting.
• Notable Quote: “Giannis and Bam together is incongruous to the point of me putting them at the 11 seed.” — Pina (38:45)
• Concern about Giannis’ health, offensive construction, and viability of the supporting cast.
• “There’s just a lot of things you have to do with Giannis... The Miami Heat aren’t built to really follow them.” — Pina (45:10)
• Kyle pushes back, but both recognize Miami as the East’s wild card.
  • “Giannis isn’t a typical... guy his size. He’s the best driving, handling big ever... how is his lower body going to handle it?” — Kyle (43:21)

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10th: Charlotte Hornets (48:45–55:09)

• Pina’s pick: Charlotte Hornets at 10.
• High on their shooting, young core, and Charles Lee’s coaching. Kobe White’s acquisition and Knipple’s off-ball brilliance are emphasized.
• “I thought Con Knipple was like the best off-ball player in the entire NBA last season, and that's crazy.” — Pina (52:46)
• Christian Anderson, Nas Reed highlighted as new adds.
• Notable Quote: "This is going to be one of the most like, lanky, explosive teams in the East.” — Kyle (14:36)

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9th: Indiana Pacers (55:20–62:03)

• Pina’s pick: Pacers at 9; Kyle had them at 7.
• The hardest team to rank—can their identity survive Zubots replacing Turner, and Haliburton’s Achilles? Shooting variance and “lightning in a bottle” playoff run considered.
• “Halliburton is a cult of personality in a way that's really unique.” — Kyle (59:35)
• Zubots praised for fit: “He's a better rebounder than Turner on both sides of the ball and... a better defender.” — Pina (61:21)

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8th: Orlando Magic (62:10–65:56)

• Pina’s pick: Orlando Magic at 8.
• No major personnel changes, new coach Sean Sweeney brings hope defensively.
• Paolo, Franz, Suggs as the core—Bane gets a fresh start.
• Notable Quote: "If you watch the Orlando Magic two years ago versus last year, like their defensive intensity is just not even close... and that is a non-negotiable." — Pina (63:41)
• Lingering concerns about Fit, ceiling and effort.
• Kyle sees Paolo Banchero’s stagnation as worrisome: “He was on the path to becoming a Julius Randle type guy, and that kind of concerned me...” (65:29)

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7th: Philadelphia 76ers (66:01–70:01)

• Pina’s pick: Sixers at 7; Kyle was much higher at 2.
• Pros: Jalen Brown, LeBron James, Tyrese Maxey, Joel Embiid, VJ Edgecombe.
• Cons: Fit questions, age (LeBron/Embiid health), depth, defense, and sacrifice.
• Notable Quote: “LeBron's about to turn 42 years old... are they going to have a top 10 defense? Do they have enough shooting? Do they have enough depth?” — Pina (67:09)
• Back-and-forth about the trajectory of rookie Phylon and rotation possibilities.

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6th: Atlanta Hawks (71:00–75:09)

• Pina’s pick: Atlanta Hawks at 6.
• Praises smart offseason (adds: Dort, Wiggins; rookies Flemings, Dev Carter, Nemhardt).
• "I think the perimeter defense is just going to be hellacious..." — Pina (72:05)
• Notes unique rotation without a real point guard, deep, athletic wings—especially strong for regular season success.
• Kingston Flemings as an intriguing rookie glue guy.

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5th: Toronto Raptors (75:27–79:19)

• Both hosts: Toronto Raptors at 5.
• The Kawhi Leonard factor—still elite; fit with Scottie Barnes (after breakthrough playoffs), CMB, and Quickley.
• “Kawhi, one of the most effective on-ball players in the NBA. Last season he was, at pick and roll and transition and ISO and in the post he was like 90th percentile or higher.” — Kyle (76:23)
• "Scotty Barnes—total man's man—24 points, 6 boards, 8.6 assists per game. ... They could have won [the series] and probably should have." — Pina (78:38)

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4th: Cleveland Cavaliers (80:05–83:45)

• Both hosts: Cavs at 4.
• Assume James Harden returns, Kenny Atkinson as coach, and a healthy Mobley.
• “Maybe the best offensive backcourt in the NBA... Donovan Mitchell and James Harden... really good together.” — Pina (80:14)
• Dean Wade’s departure hurts perimeter defense.
• Cautiously optimistic, but both acknowledge underlying "dread" and lack of change (“are you sure about that?” meme).

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3rd: Detroit Pistons (83:45–89:05)

• Pina’s optimistic take: The Pistons are now a shooting-oriented team, pivoting from "bad boys pastiche."
• Notable moves: Isaiah Joe, John Collins.
• “I think John Collins is just a better player, let alone a better fit, than Tobias Harris for this team.” — Pina (87:31)
• Kyle more skeptical, seeing regression likely with East contenders healthy again.

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2nd: Boston Celtics (90:07–95:22)

• Pina’s pick: Boston Celtics at 2.
• Core swap: Jalen Brown + Vucevic OUT, Tatum + Paul George + Mitchell Robinson IN.
• PG touted as massively underrated, “better shooter, defender, pick-and-roll processor” than Brown.
  • “What does Jaylen Brown do at basketball that's definitively better than what Paul George does?” — Pina (91:48)
• Deep praise for bench, coach, and Robinson’s rebounding.
• Pritchard and White as key role players; Robinson’s offensive rebounding and kick-outs draw notice.

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1st: New York Knicks (95:32–99:44)

• Both agree: Knicks deserve #1.
• Only major loss is Mitchell Robinson (swapped for Drummond); most championship core returns.
• “They are easily the most mentally tough basketball team in the NBA. There's really no debating that.” — Pina (97:00)
• Main challenge: sustaining energy and focus during a victory-lap season as defending champs.
• Light, memorable moment: OG's Skechers commercial as a test of championship energy in New York.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Milwaukee’s Direction: "It's a bunch of dudes, but no dudes... The emphasis of the dude really makes a big difference there." — Kyle (12:25)
• On Giannis & the Heat Fit: "Giannis and Bam together is incongruous to the point of me putting them at the 11 seed." — Pina (38:45)
• On Pacers, Hot Streaks, and Playoff Runs: “They were so disciplined... playing at a fast pace. They were a constant curveball.” — Pina (58:21)
• On the Celtics Trade: “What does Jaylen Brown do at basketball that's definitively better than what Paul George does?” — Pina (91:48)
• On the Knicks Repeat Potential: “They are easily the most mentally tough basketball team in the NBA. There's really no debating that.” — Pina (97:00)
• On Power Rankings: “You can ascribe any kind of quality to your methodology that you want. It's alchemy vs. science.” — Kyle (04:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | Main Focus | |-----------|-----------------------------|----------------------------------------------| | 00:13-05:25 | Opening/Explanation | Power ranking philosophy, East overview | | 07:39-12:25 | 15th: Bucks | Roster collapse after Giannis trade | | 13:21-18:30 | 14th: Bulls | New regime, future optimism, Powell's fate | | 21:09-28:57 | 13th: Wizards | Veteran/young core mishmash, unclear plan | | 29:26-34:18 | 12th: Nets | Coaching optimism, odd roster, MPJ/Randle | | 35:15-46:44 | 11th: Miami Heat | Hot take: Giannis-Bam doubts, depth issues | | 48:45-55:09 | 10th: Hornets | Offense, youth, upside, Knipple’s leap | | 55:20-62:03 | 9th: Pacers | Haliburton’s impact, Zubats’s fit | | 62:10-65:56 | 8th: Magic | No roster change, coaching, defensive focus | | 66:01-70:01 | 7th: Sixers | Super team: Fit, health, LeBron’s age | | 71:00-75:09 | 6th: Hawks | Defensive identity, depth, rookie intrigue | | 75:27-79:19 | 5th: Raptors | Kawhi, playoff Barnes, spacing improvements | | 80:05-83:45 | 4th: Cavs | Backcourt strength, running it back, doubts | | 83:45-89:05 | 3rd: Pistons | Identity pivot, shooting, underrated moves | | 90:07-95:22 | 2nd: Celtics | Tatum/PG swap, upside, bench/role praise | | 95:32-99:44 | 1st: Knicks | Championship “alchemy,” mental toughness |

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Closing Thoughts

The hosts reflect on the newfound depth in the Eastern Conference, the unpredictability of team trajectories, and the unshakeable sense that this season is the most intriguing for the conference in years. Open questions linger about fit for newly-constructed superteams, injury returns, and which teams might outperform or flame out.

“In my time... watching Eastern Conference basketball, I don’t know that I can remember it looking the way that it looks right now.” — Kyle (99:45)

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode:

Expect a season where league-wide parity, superstar movement, and reinvention of team identities collide, making the NBA’s Eastern Conference must-watch from top to bottom. If you want one big takeaway: Don’t get attached to your perceptions—this conference is about to get weird, wild, and wide open.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Folks, it's a special edition of the Ringer NBA show. We are checking in. Reporting to you live from our respective locations, both East Coast. That's nice. Whenever I don't have to deal with these west coast wussies. It's me and Michael Pena. We both got on the zoom call today and saw that we're wearing the same Detroit hat. Michael tried to change. Like a coward, I said, dig in. Be a man. Step up. We gotta, we gotta. I thought it was better that we both did it. I have no relation to the, to the Tigers. It's a little surprising though, that you decided because you actually have a rooting baseball, but you still float between teams. That's the. I don't have a pro team, so I can kind of mingle and go wherever I want. But you're, I mean, do you get comments? I guess living in New York, it's a hodgepodge, so probably not really. If you were in Boston, I don't think that would fly.

[A]

Comment on this.

[B]

Pina.

[A]

Yeah, I, you know, I'm struck by the versatility of this hat and the preponderance of outfits I can wear it with, which is why I'm a big fan. And also my wife is from Michigan, so I'm lying up there.

[B]

Yeah, you got a lot of outs. Got a lot outs. Yeah. Tyler Parker and I were talking about the other day, the Pistons hat. I think it's just the, the, the calligraphy kind of thing. I don't know what style you would call that, but you know, I'm a, I'm a Dilla fan, so there's also that going on. You know, I got a little.

[A]

Oh, there you go. Beautiful.

[B]

Dill is the great guy. That's, that's probably at the heart of why I wear it. Anyway, guys, it's a slow time of the year. We were talking about what's going on news wise. You know, Jaylen Brown has a presser today and I was asking Pino, he's like, is it because he's, he's announced that he's open to love? That was the biggest story. Just to speak to how slow it is. We got some outstanding signings that haven't happened, but he finally goes on record and outs himself as a sixer now that the dust has settled. But other than that, it's been. What? I mean, have you been crunching tape? What are you doing with your, with your slow time? Pino, are you being a father? What's up?

[A]

I am being a father. That's a Good call. Have two small children. So that is taking up a lot of time. Reading books. Books are a huge part of my life in August, so I try to absorb as much information that is non NBA related as I can in this brief little window of the calendar we have here where the schedule is nice and slow. But besides that. Yeah, it's just easy living, Kyle. It's easy living right now.

[B]

Yeah. My son started kindergarten this morning and we'll move on from family stuff because I know people are. Their eyes are glazing over but way harder than I thought. I'm just going to say, any parents that are approaching that, I took some footage of it and started to review it a little bit and I was just like, nope, can't watch that.

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

Yeah, that was rough.

[C]

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[D]

Weeks.

[C]

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[B]

somewhere out there is a Chevy truck and the person who drives it. Well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one, your buddy, your sister. Ones who always show up, they're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet together. Let's drive. Visit chevy.com truck to explore the lineup. It was tough. So what we're going to be doing today is we're going to be doing some power ranking. You know, this is a very ringery thing that we, we love to power rank. What's the essence of the power rank versus the rank? I don't. It's not results based, right? You can like skirt results in the power rank. You can just say this is the vibe. You can kind of like just ascribe any kind of quality to your methodology that you want. Right. You can. It's alchemy versus science, wouldn't you say?

[A]

I think that's right. A lot of vibe, influence. We're basically going off of like no data or information here because we are projecting into.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

And what we are power ranking. The Eastern Conference is highly volatile and super unpredictable right now. So we're just kind of flying by the seat of our pants on this. Bud.

[B]

Did this when you sat down initially to look at this group of teams? I mean, I, I kind of, you know, did the first step of like, let's just see the results from last year in general. Do you think that this is going to be like a normal year to year, like board shuffle compared like the way that this based on your own expectations? Because I sat down and I was, you know, last year. I kept calling last year the bubble Gump season because all the other boats had sunk. So basically we got some results that we had crazy injuries. You know, Giannis missed time, obviously we had, you know, Tatum missed time. Halliburton's out for the whole season. We're not talking about, you know, small, small potatoes players who are missing time. These are guys that really, really affect the results. I mean, when you, when you sat down to kind of look at what it looked like last year to what it looked like this year, just as a, as a teaser before we get going, were you surprised at how, how much movement there was? You said volatile.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, we're going to go through this and I think that some of the teams where I put them on my list will surprise people because I think that there's just a lot of really good quality basketball teams. And I'm really interested to see how these new pieces fit. And there's just so much talent and a lot of big names moved east. And we should say that we are going to be ranking these teams under the assumption that Kawhi Leonard is going to be on the Toronto Raptors this season. Hope to God that is the case. And no small detail. Yeah, no small detail. Yeah. So there's just a lot of talent in the east and everybody's healthy, as you said, like the. Tyrese Halliburton's back, Jayson Tatum's back, and we have the champion or the New York Knicks and they basically kept their team together. So it's just going to be a lot of fun, I think. Very surprising.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We get, you know, when you said superstars, obviously the Headline there is Julius Randall comes to the. To the Brooklyn. Who are. You know, they're the. He's the main guy that migrated. I just wanted to point that out. Let's get. Well, that's a good segue in. So let's start at number 15. Who's your number 15 team, Mike?

[A]

I have the Milwaukee Bucks.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I think this team is. I think Zach or Rob said earlier this year that this roster was just a lot of dudes, and I haven't been able to get that description out of my head. It's perfect. There's like a decent amount of actual talent here. Not one, but two former Sixth Men of the Year award winners in Tyler Herro and Jaime Hakas. I like Taylor Jenkins as a head coach and he will do his best to win basketball games and implement a cogent style of play, but it's just. It's a morass. I just don't. Who's handling the ball on this team on a consistent basis? How is their defense going to function? What is the depth? They just lost Giannis on Dentokounmpo. It's like. Yeah, so replacing that is. It's just going to be. It's going to be a tough year.

[B]

Yeah, it's pretty existential in the. In the looking in the broader sense for them, just kind of zooming forward and seeing where they're going. Like, where. What direction is this headed? And usually that's dictated by the things you're talking about, like the. You. They didn't get a primary back. That moved the needle like Giannis. They don't. So they don't. And they. The. The assets. You know, Braden Buries had a good summer league and things like that, but I was looking at this roster and I was just like, who's starting at 1? I mean, I assume Ryan Rollins is going to move to the bench. I mean, I. I could see Buries moving up in the rotation at the 3. You'd assume it'd be Hawkez. Khale Ware and Miles Turner could play together potentially. You weren't initially a Khalil Ware fan, Right. Did you come around on him at all? Not that I want to spend a ton of time on Kaloa.

[A]

He's okay. Definitely not the prize in a Giannis trade. Good. I don't see that in his future. I don't think he'll make any All Star teams or anything like that, but I guess just from an Intrigue standpoint. Yeah. Watching him potentially share the floor with Miles Turner as two, three point Shooting pseudo three point shooting big men who can also protect the rim. Like that's. That could be something. I guess I will watch and laugh.

[B]

I'm trying to. I'm trying to think of like big guy combos across the league because it isn't typically. You don't typically see for as much as we talk about like rim protectors that can shoot threes. There really aren't a ton of them. And it's like I'm trying to think of guys who portray. Because Turner obviously is not the room protector that he was. But where is kind of. They're similar archetypical players. Right. I think. I think where in Turner are and that they like when they're younger. They're had a lot of upside promise as room protectors. I don't know that there's a player combination like that. I'm trying to think across the league. Is there a tandem that's similar to those two dudes? Because neither one of them being superstars, but both are pretty good. It's like a high, reasonably good floor, not super high ceiling combo. But there aren't a ton of. There aren't a ton of tandems out there like those two guys. I don't think.

[A]

No, I'm like scouring the league in my head and I have. I've got nothing.

[B]

AD and SAR actually would be another similar one, I guess. Right?

[A]

Yeah. If AD could shoot, that could be something. So, yeah, it's tricky. I mean, yeah, there's really. It's very unique. It's a singular combination. I don't even think they'll play. I can't really actually see them playing together a ton. But who knows? It's also a situation where I put them at the bottom because a lot of teams are trying to win, obviously because we changed the incentive with the lottery. But this team is in a situation where they should still be just selling off parts. And I don't believe that they have access to their draft pick anyway. So it doesn't matter.

[B]

So

[A]

yeah, I think they'll be very

[B]

bad for each team. I wanted to do something where we do. I wanted to say year to year movement, which is basically just like stock up, stock down or push. Would you say this. Is this. Where would you say their stock went year to year of the bucks before we move on?

[A]

They were terrible last year and I would still say stock down. I think that this is just like the most. One of the more depressing situations in the league right now.

[B]

Yeah, it is pretty rough. We should also note that they got Caspar in that deal. They drafted Nate Ainsk. It. Who. It's. It's a lot of hypothetical. It's funny that you said. It's funny that you. You like that description of there. It's a bunch of dudes, but no dudes. You know, it's like.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

The emphasis of the dude really makes a big difference there. I didn't have them at the. At 15. I actually had the Brooklyn Nets at. At 15 because it's. You might be. You might be correct and ahead of me on this one. And you're thinking. Or just more dialed in. Because when I was looking at them, I was just. I don't really know where the direction is here. I could see the Jaeger Michael Brown combo being fun, but I could also seen it being an absolute disaster. I could see Julius Randall and Michael Porter Jr. Being one of the more just maddening forward combinations in the league. Like, individually, you can kind of tolerate them in spurts. Granted, Porter played pretty well this past year. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself here. Who.

[A]

Where.

[B]

Do you have the Nets or are they. Where. Who's your 14? We'll just do that. I.

[A]

Well, I had the Nets. Do you want me to tell you where I had the Nets?

[B]

Well, just tell me who your 14 is. Let's just call your list.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

14.

[A]

I have the Chicago Bulls.

[B]

Okay, me too. I do, too.

[A]

I may be naive. It feels like the dawn of a new day in Chicago. It has a new general manager in Bryson Graham. It has a new franchise player, hopefully and guiding light in Caleb Wilson. And I, you know, I like some of the talent here in terms of just how it complements itself more so this year than last year. Norm Powell is awesome. And if he's still on the team for the whole year, that would be cool. Nick Claxton, I think is a okay player if surrounded by the right type of ball handling and playmaking. And I think Josh Giddey can provide some of that. And I think Boozelis kind of shifting down into like, you can be like our 1B or number two franchise player where I think there was a little bit too much on him last season. It's kind of perfect for him. So fun team and brighter future. Much brighter future than I thought I would be saying this time last year. But still going to be pretty bad.

[B]

Yeah. Pretty fun balance of. I think this is going to be one of the most, like, lanky, explosive teams in the East. Also could be one of the most like really, really crazily spatially challenged teams in the East. If the, if you consider. I was, I was going to ask you, you, you mentioned Norm Powell. I mean, Josh Giddy was obviously a big move that they went and made and you know, sending out Alex Cruz so they go get Josh Giddy. Do you think is, is Powell the, the biggest candidate on this team to not be on the team at the deadline, or do you think that there's a chance that Giddy could be a guy that they pivot away from?

[A]

I think Norm Powell's contract was like signed to trade. That was the intent. He makes no sense. In Chicago, by their own admission, they're at the bottom of a rebuild. Exorcisms take time. So if I was him, if I was him, I would, you know, I, my intent was to sign this and get minutes, get a lot of shots. I made the All Star team last year. If I'm Norm Powell, that's great. And, you know, lead the team in scoring probably and then move on to greener pastures at the trade deadline. I think that that is in everybody's best interest.

[B]

I wonder is, is the east the most likely, the most likely bedfellow for a trade like that? Do you think that there's a team that is. I'm trying to think of scoring punch because I thought Detroit was the team that made the most sense. I know we'll get to Detroit in terms of the board shifting. They're one of the more interesting teams for this exercise. But I'm trying to think of the most alluring candidates that could use a Norm Powell, who at this point, I mean, how would you describe his. I mean, it's kind of. He's sort of like an overqualified bucket getter who I'm not going to like, depend on to run offense. But he's also credible, you know, because he's not in that six man category where it's like your, your pursuit of your own offense is so constant that it's destructive. You know, he still has that credibility 100%. We can, we can lean on this guy.

[A]

He's a guy whose game, to me, scales up, scales down. Don't have to run any actions for him, but we can and we'll get good stuff out of it. Like just run him out of the corner off a screen into a dribble handoff and he's going to make a play at the rim or he can pull up and he's one of the better movement shooters in the league. So I think he's just really beneficial and portable and easy to fit anywhere. And I don't know, he's kind of been banged up a little bit the past couple years and he's getting up there in age, so that could be a little bit of a concern. But the contract is perfectly digestible for whoever wants to take him on. So I just. Yeah, I think he could get traded to any contender, pseudo contender, aspiring contender, and, and fit right in.

[B]

You know what's interesting is looking at. I mean, honestly, the Heat could have used him, but I guess they have like a pretty poor facsimile of him and Tim Hardaway. But, but the. An interesting one would be a return to the Raptors because I could see him helping them. That's a team. We can get into their, their needs and things like that. But just looking down through here, the teams that are close, I mean, that could, could use some of what he provides. Yeah, the Pistons, I could see the Raptors, those are the two main ones that kind of jump to mind if he stays in the East.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, everybody needs shooting and everybody needs players who don't need the ball but can still impact the game positively without it. So those two teams are great candidates to take him on. And anyone who again, is willing to pay the, what is he, $21.5 million or something, but it's like a team option in the second year. Great contract. The Bruce Brown Jr. Special. Any team would be happy to have him. Like the Pacers. He'd be a great fit on the Pacers too.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, in summer league, I mean, was that your first exposure to the Caleb Wilson experience? Did you have YouTube diving going in or what was your reaction to him?

[A]

My first reaction was when he was on UNC because someone told me he was like, Kevin Garnett, who is my favorite player of all time. And so I was like, okay, cool. Let's check this out. I thought it was. He was fun. I. Big, long cares about defense. Energetic. That was great. And then seeing him go, what was it, 7 for 11 in that summer league game, and I was like, okay, this is good stuff. So I would not have taken him first overall or anything, but. But he was my like favorite player coming into this draft.

[B]

Yeah, that. I was, I was definitely more in the, in the Garnetti kind of camp. Like that, that area where the, the ball skills are, are there in like very controlled doses. Like if he's in. I've, you know, said these things on draft related shows over the course of the year, but Just if he's in a one to two dribble situation from the mid range, it's like he can do some incredible stuff. But if he gets to the point where he's in the teeth of the defense and he's having to, like, make a decision and see more than one defender at a time, it's like I'm. We're not quite ready for that. So, like, watching him in summer league, it's like, I think we're going to see a lot of highs and lows. Like, if they hypothetically do get off of giddy or they. And they start to lean on him or just lean into being bad, you know, I think the ups and the downs of him being absolutely unbelievable athletic can do all these different things and then a total disaster. On some nights where he had. He's going to have some nights where he has like eight turnovers and, you know, goes oh for six from three and stuff. Like, I think that stuff's going to happen. But yeah, they. They are still going to be. It's funny because it's like you. You go into this season as the. As the Bulls in the. In the past, knowing the history of their front office and stuff. Just the being bad was a lot less digestible because you. You're like, you don't trust the people who are laying down the. The. The train tracks in front of you. And now it's kind of. It's. It's a refresh to the point where if they're bad this year, it's going to be like a lot more carefree than in the past.

[A]

And it was never their intent to be bad, which was always the whole situation.

[B]

That's the worst part when you're knowing. Yeah. It's like if Sam Presti's like, we're going to be bad. You're like, okay. And then they got out of it. But that was, you know, that was a little bit different with the.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Administration. Yeah. All right. Who's your number 13 team?

[A]

This may surprise you. I have the Washington Wizards at 13.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, go ahead.

[A]

We're talking about vibes, right? I see the talent here, of course. I just have a hard time disentangling that talent from just how stupid it's been compiled, you know what I mean? Like, I think that this. I have no idea what this team is doing. I have no idea how many voices are in the front office. It seems like there's 35 people, and they're all screaming and just yelling out names, and we're going to offer this guy like why is Chris Middleton here? I don't, I don't get it. I don't, I don't understand. I never got the Anthony Davis trade in the first place. And I bet if you gave truth serum to people in that organization they would say we would not have done that if we knew we were getting the number one overall pick. And then you have Trae Young is here who got the worst contract in the summer from Washington. Absolutely mind numbingly dumb. And so I have a. Just a hard time separating how everything came together with what this will actually look as a basketball team. And I might be selling them short to be fair because of just how upsetting they are. That makes sense.

[B]

It's funny because I've written down. I didn't do it for all the teams, but I kind of wrote down I have tiers of each team and this is my first team that I was like they would be. So we have like title contenders, conference contenders, scrappy in a series. Those are the tiers. And then I made a tier just for the Wizards that would be called tickled to just be in a series that's their. That they're in their own. And one of the, one of the questions that I. Well, I'll do. I wrote down a synopsis for them. An on paper tiger of a roster with a cross section of promising prospects. Parentheses including the recent number one pick and transient distressed high level stars that could converge into something entertaining or dangerous. Yes. And then my first that I was going to ask you, you already answered which is why is Chris Middleton here? So we were on the same. We were saying we were same lockstep there. It's. I kind of worry about this because you're right. Like if the games were just being played on paper, if we were just playing NBA Live or NBA 2K whatever it is and we were going out there with just the talent we were controlling the brain and the spirit of this team. Yeah, you would think you'd be able to take it somewhere good. But it's like you look at the way that AJ Debonsa projects to develop. It's a little different than Caleb where I kind of feel like he's going to really want to be the high primary high usage player in year one. And I think he deserves to have that Runway as a player just throwing him in there with. And I think it expands beyond AJ because you've had guys like Bob, you've had guys like, you know, Keyshawn George I think has shown a Lot of promise. And when you're projecting their starting lineup and when I was, like, doing their depth chart, I was like, man, a lot of these guys got pushed back in a way. In a way where it's like they've imported veteran voices. You know, Trey. Trey's coming in, and I know he's eager to be, you know, he's calling guys on draft night and he's, you know, wanting to be the mentor and things like that. If you look at Trey's history, I know you've been a big Trey fan in the past. I don't. We haven't done a status report on that in a while, but several years. I was going to say you used to really love to joke with me about him spanking Darius Garland, but. Because I was a big Garland fan. But I just kind of wonder about how eager these guys are to be pupils to Anthony Davis and Trey Young. Because as successful as AD has been, not doesn't have a history of, like, I don't know. How are you feeling about that convergence of the youth movement on this team and these and these guys that are coming in.

[A]

None of it makes sense, man. It just doesn't make sense. Like, Trey Johnson is another really interesting. I mean, I thought he was in what I saw in summer league, took a notable step forward, I don't know in his development since the first time I saw him play basketball in the NBA. So that's just another guy. But, yeah, there's a lot of. There's not a lot of minutes going around for. I know Sar broke his foot. So then they get deandre Ayton in another name who's just here.

[B]

We haven't even mentioned. That's another. That will be a voice. Whether you want him to be. He's gonn a voice in the lottery.

[A]

100%. 100%. He's playing for a new contract. So it's like, I didn't even think about that.

[B]

That's an added force.

[A]

It's a true headache. And so I just think that this could be a nightmare. And I could see Trey getting hurt. I could see definitely AD getting hurt. And then what you have is a very young team that's supposed to be bad in an organic way. That is fine. And I just think they tried to unnaturally rush the process here in terms of building something with their core. And if they. Again, if they would have known that they had the number one pick, which I don't know, like, they did lose, like, every game on purpose. So it was their intent down the stretch to get the number one pick. But I think if they knew that they had been rewarded with it that they would have never made these trades that just don't make a lot of sense and ended up eating up all their cap space this summer as well.

[B]

Yeah, I was thinking one advantage that they do have is because SAR and AD, like, neither one of them want to play center. They could just lie and say the other person is playing center. So they could just kind of do a little feedback loop of deception.

[C]

Sweet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It would have been more fun to just watch this team be organically just adding AJ to this group. I think it was interesting enough on its own. You know, I guess you're hedging or you're just sort of like being a weighing station for these, these contracts. But I don't know, maybe. Maybe they'll prove us wrong and they'll be. Their year to year movement I had down is better, but sure will it will. The other question I had is will their starting lineup be their best lineup? Was another question that I asked there. I don't. I don't know if it. Hypothetically it is. The idea of AD and Trey as sort of an NBA jam, you know, template is fun. Yeah, they. They do. They will have a lot of kind of secondary lineups. They're going to be. I thought Will Riley, I've kind of touted him here and there too. I know we're lingering on the Wizards here, but I think he's shown a lot of promise. You said Trey. Trey handled his business at summer league in a way where he was just like. But got in, got out, did well. But I like Riley. Yeah, it's just. It's a weird veteran convergence with the, with the ascending talent that they have.

[A]

So. Yeah, I'm looking at the depth chart. I couldn't tell you what their starting lineup is going to be. I, I think it's. That's a tough one to kind of project.

[B]

I'd assume it's Keyshawn and Trey and then DeVont's at the 3 and then Sar and Davis, I would assume. But they. I guess they. I would assume star SAR is going to start.

[A]

Yeah, maybe I, that your spacing is like kind of effed if you with that look. But again, like I don't know what the stakes are here. I don't really understand why there's such a. A pressure to win right now and be relevant. And I just think that if they were a little bit more patient, things would have kind of worked out for Them finally, which they kind of never have for the Washington wizards. But getting DebonSA is amazing.

[B]

So yeah, DebonSA gives me big Tatum kind of vibes. I said that to Bill recently. I just kind of think people like when they were thinking about his comp, I was like, I feel like we might just be overthinking it. It's a guy that has playmaking that he needs to do, but he's kind of a born scorer. He's not. He's a up and down shooter, things like that. Anyway, he reminds me of Tatum. So I think that leaves us at number 12. I had the Wizards at 12. Okay, who do you have it. Who do you have at number 12?

[A]

I have the Nets.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I actually higher than the Wizards is pretty interesting. You really think that's going to be a disaster? That's having the Nets here really compounds it.

[A]

Yeah, I think the Nets, I think Jordi Fernandez is like my dark, dark, dark, dark, dark horse head coach of the year candidate. I think the expectations for this team are obviously like, they will be the worst team in the Eastern Conference or one of. I thought that what he did last year with Michael Porter Jr. Turning him into someone who should have made the all star team was kind of amazing without bending MPJ's game in any way, just kind of accentuating him in a way that was like really beneficial to the team as well. And I think that Julius Randle, who I would have not traded for Julius Randle if I was the Brooklyn Nets and doing so, really confused me. But he's kind of like in a perfect space. He's like the primary scorer on a spunky but fatally flawed team. Like that's his basketball destiny to me. Like I. The fact that he was on the Minnesota Timberwolves just never, never sat right with me. I think that there's like a cap on how good you can be if he is taking a lot of shots and getting a lot of touches in your offense. So I think for a team that has no stakes whatsoever, that no one thinks can do anything, he's kind of perfect. And I am also a Jaeger Geemen believer. And I think last year, yeah, I think last year, like the way he was able to play off the ball and really show he could shoot was huge. How they view him and his career, frankly, because I don't know if he's ever going to be like a primary on ball playmaker at a high usage. So having him, you know, they ran stuff for him also because he's got really good Size. They ran a ton of stuff for him. You know, off ball actions just to try to get shots up. And it worked for the most part. I mean he had a stretch where he was like historically great behind the three point line as a rookie. So I think there's like young, interesting talent here and I just have a lot of respect for the coaching staff. I think that Jordy Fernandez is incredible. So, so yeah, that's, you know, 12th in the east. Good stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I had them at the bottom, but I mean I do have some guys that I like. I mean, yeah, like you said, obviously the staff is good. I mean they, they went out and they, you know, they add Mikel Brown. We should mention that that was their, that was their big haul in the, in the draft.

[A]

You were not. That was not your guy. Right. From what I've been listening to, it's

[B]

a, it's one of those. I like him, but not at a certain spot. I have questions about him being efficient. Just his. I wondered about the bookends of his game. I've brought up, I've brought up Keonte, George and Anthony Simons. Granted, Keonte's kind of started to answer some of those questions in terms of his paint production, which really unlocked a lot of things. If Michael starts to, you know, answer those questions about his like poise in the. Within the teeth of the defense and you know, getting to the line and things like that, like, that'll open up his game and he'll prove me wrong in short order, which has happened in the past. But I think Jaeger, Jaeger had similar problems. Like I think you, you pointed it out where coming in, it was like Jaeger could just. He was one of the most brilliant like basketball minds in that class in terms of as a processor, like he reads were just like yawn, boring to him because he, he could just do it all. Yeah, but it was a qu. He. He still has to answer the questions of. If he has to answer the questions of like rim pressure and can he get to the basket and things like that, can he score? Then the conversation will really change for him if he does start to do that. But the shooting was huge like you said. And for, for now that's enough for him to kind of ride and be like, he's probably. I've compared him to like Sean Livingston in the past, like where it's like this guy's probably not going to be our high, high usage guy that we like run everything through, but he's so smart that we can put him next To a star player. Yeah, maybe that's Mikel. Maybe, you know, for. If you have guys like Julius Randall and Michael Porter Jr. On your team and you want to outsource some of the thinking and like, we'll run actions that are kind of like schemed creation to get those guys shots. Like, Jaeger's is a really smart player. They also got Josh Jefferson in the draft. They added Mo Wagner year to year improvement. I mean, I'd say this was. I down that this was a push. Do you think that they got demonstrably better?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, they were so bad last year, so. Yeah, they definitely. They shut everybody down. It was such a. It was. It was a disaster. Yeah, I would definitely say that they got better. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. The tier that I had this team in was participation trophy, because I don't see them in the. In the playoffs. Who is your number 11 tier?

[A]

All right, here's where we're gonna get. We're gonna get spicy. I told you we're gonna get spicy. Kyle, let me.

[B]

Let me preface before you go into this, Mike and I were texting before, and I was like, dude, this. I think I started this tier at 5 to 11. I was like, this is one of the crazier 5 to 11s in the east.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I forget our age range here, but I mean, I've been following the NBA like, closely probably since, for a while. I mean, I remember when Jason Kidd migrated to the west, the east, like, that was kind of the starting point where it was like, all right, the east is bad. It's so dense. And like, ranking these teams and your spiciness, I guess, is a. Is a response to that. So I just wanted to say that as a lead, and this is going to get crazy, so. Warning to listener, buckle up.

[A]

My number 11 is the Miami Heat.

[B]

Holy. Sorry. Okay. I did not expect that. Wow. When you said spicy, I. I had other teams in mind, but the Heat were not who I thought. I mean, I said, yeah, just I'll start. I mean, I sat down and was looking at their starting lineup, and I was tempted. You know, you doing the thing where you're just kind of moving it around and just seeing how you feel. I know with draft boards, I do that a lot. You do that with top 100, where sometimes I'll make a move and just be like, just to make myself feel something because I'm dead inside or, you know. But when I was looking at their lineup and I'm like, okay, bam. And Giannis, I can kind of I can kind of assume where you're going with this off, where you're, where you're thinking. The depth is the main thing for me. Even if you believe in their starting lineup, it's like, how are they going to answer these depth questions? In addition to as even if you believe in Spolstro, one of the best basketball minds in the world, there's the questions start to stack up to the point where it's just like this is. He would have to be a basketball Houdini to get out of some of the constraints that he's going to have with this group. But go ahead, Mike, tell us why you have him.

[A]

I think, I think offensively there's just so many questions that I have that aren't great in terms of three point shooting, spacing, offensive creativity. It reminds me a lot of like. Well, I want to say it like reminds me of the Bucs last year and just like trying to, but it like doesn't actually at all remind me of the Bucs last year just in terms of how we're going to build around Giannis. And they, I thought how they tried, like what their strategy was last year in Milwaukee made some sense to me, but it just isn't how you win basketball games in this era of the NBA in 2025, 2026 and going forward. And what the Heat have done is like, I don't know what the strategy is. They got Giannis, they gave up like all their depth or like really key depth pieces that actually like let that offense function. And how they played last year, which was like super fast, you know, make or miss, we're taking the ball and we're sprinting up the court and we're making like maybe one or two passes and then we're going to the rim and seeing what happens. And like Jaime Hakaz was a huge part of that. Tyler Hero was eventually a big part of that. Norm Powell was a part of that. And so I just don't like, they have one movement shooter, Tim Hardaway Jr. Who had the best three point shooting season of his career last year. You know, Nikola Jokic was his teammate. Nikola Jokic is not on this team. So I just, you know, if he shoots 34, 35% from behind the three point line, the wheels could just like fall off on this offense. And then when you look at the names and the fact that there's no backup center and the fact that I cracked this joke that got me banned from the rights for Ricky Sanchez podcast about Simone Fontechio. Go ahead. It's like, Simone Fontechio is, like, on the team and he's going to be in the rotation, and he's like, they need stuff from him. I just. I think that this is, like, not a disaster by any measure, but, like, when Pat Riley said, we don't need shooting, we need another ball handler. Like, we need more playmaking and trying to lure LeBron to Miami, I was thinking to myself, like, what. Like, what do you. You. You don't believe that? Like, what are you talking about? That's like, like, so I. They. I'm not even saying that they don't need that, because they do, but they also need shooting. Like, Giannis and Bam together is incongruous to the point of me putting them at the 11 seed. And I know we. We haven't talked about the defense yet, and I think the defense will be really good and there's potential there. But. But I just think offensively and credit to all the rest of the teams in the Eastern Conference, which I think a lot of teams have leveled up or gotten healthy and that we've talked about, so it's also a byproduct of that, but I just think they'll really struggle to score the basketball this season in the half court.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. The depth chart is tough. I mean, if you're looking down through here, I mean, Portis. Portis adds just kind of a dissonant quality to what you were talking about. I mean, they. They have a history of mining these dudes or just finding these guys who are on the fringes of the top 450 players in the world and, like, leaning into. They're good at sourcing dudes who can, like, volume, shoot, who need to be sort of harangued into doing it more aggressively. Like, they've had a lot of success with finding those guys. I will say that Ryan Conwell is a guy that, you know, he played pretty well at summer league, but is a great movement shooter. They're so desperate to. For guys like that that he might just get a chance to do. To. To play. So I don't know if you know a ton about him, but Fontechio, though, you mentioned as another guy. I mean, yeah, it might be the case that their needs are so strong that he just gets sort of vacuumed up into the. The rotation. He's. I like Fontechio. I think he could add some stuff to them.

[A]

Me, too.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, should. Should Tim Hardaway Jr be starting on this team, though, if they're gonna have A chance to even contend in the East.

[A]

I mean, they could start Pella Larson instead,

[B]

so it might not be a given. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, Drew Smith is still on the team. I kind of like him when he. I just like his utility. But these are names that we're saying that are just like. Like, come on. Like, if you look at some of the rosters that we're going to be talking about later on, like, I just don't think that they compare. And also, how many games is Giannis going to play? You know, like, that's also a question that I'm trying to factor in here a little bit because he is perennially. Perennially banged up or has a calf thing or whatever. So I'm kind of baking that in also, because if he goes down, I think that it's. The wheels completely come off and it's just. It's a total train wreck. But, like, are you expecting, like, Nikola Jovic to bounce back and make good on the contract? Like, because I'm not. I just. There's not a lot of redeeming qualities here. And to your point, like, I do not know Ryan Conwell's game. I am unfamiliar with it, but, like, if you're telling me he's going to be Duncan Robinson or Max Stru level type of contributor, I'll change my tune. But I'll believe that when I see it.

[B]

I don't know about that, but I think that he'll definitely win some fans. I think in terms of. He's just like a stocky, really smart cutter. Like. Like a stocky. Not like in George Costanza way, but just like sort of a. Sort of. A. Sort of a bane build. He's got. He's just a beefy sort of. But he's quick, can really shoot it off. Movement at high volume. He. He seems like a classic Heat guy to me. And he may get chances, but contributing on that level. You talk about Giannis, I mean, the. The Yanis, like, potential fallout thing is, like, such a sore subject, and it's been interesting to watch it migrate from Milwaukee. It's not their problem anymore to, like, be concerned about that. Lord knows they have other problems now, but, like, the idea of, like, Giannis aging. Because I know Bill and I have talked about this a lot. It's like we have these archetypes of career, the flows of careers where we're like this. Usually we start, you know, tapping the watch. Be like, this typically starts to happen at this age. You know, some of the classic ones are, like, small Scoring guard, like, around this time, you know, you're, you know, your advantages start to fall off. It's like Giannis isn't. Is a unique case, though, just because he doesn't play like a typical. A guy his size typically does. I said on a pod recently, like, I think he's probably the best driving, handling big ever. And yeah, heard that, those, that, that aging curve for a player like that, I don't really know what to compare it to because I know people have said he's like modern Shaq. It's like Shaq didn't. Those clips of like, Shaq dribbling in, in transition are novel. Like, what Giannis does in transition is typical games.

[A]

That's his game.

[B]

It's, it's like it's model, it's ideal. It's like all the time. And it's like a guy that has to move like that and take punishment like that. It's. And just the way that he moves laterally when he's coming downhill to, like, the big steps, it just makes you wonder, like, how his lower body is going to handle it. Because this past year, I mean, he was, you know, only played 36 games, 29 minutes per game, the production was still really good. Even though, you know, I'd say per 100 possessions, he's probably the same player. Even though his minutes were like, slightly down from, from normal. 27 and a half points for per game, you know, about 10 rebounds, about five and a half assists. So it's like he's the same dude. But, but I don't know, the, the combination of the spatial challenges that you mentioned, that they're not going to have as much. When you think about the wear and tear that could befall him this coming season if, if, if his curve does start to kind of become a factor here and you weigh that with the spatial stuff, that could be a problem. I do worry. I don't have him as low as you do, but I do worry about those two things, you know, working together to kind of make a. Exacerbate the concerns.

[A]

Like, he needs spacing. It's never been a situation in his life or since he's been like a first team, all NBA type of player where he didn't have a Brook Lopez spacing the floor at the five. They, you know, the Bucks, like, ruined their organization by trading for Miles Turner. There was like a real act of desperation that showed Giannis's limitations, I think, or just the way Giannis needs to play to be at his best and to maximize him, because if you have, like, if you're just packing the paint, which teams will do on the Miami Heat this year, and they will not really care about Bam Adebayo's three point shooting. And I know he's, you know, ticked up in volume and accuracy a little bit, but he's not, like, he's not spacing the floor for anybody. So I. There's just a lot of things you have to do with Giannis. There are rules, and the Miami Heat aren't built to really follow them. And I think that it, it's not great. Like, I think that this, this first season will be bad, and then I think that they will have time to kind of restructure their roster a little bit in a better, better way next summer, and then the Heat can be a little bit more formidable. But right now, I just, I don't. I don't see it at all.

[B]

Yeah, and like we were saying, like, the, it's, it's not like we have a lot of, like, padded years of youth to just like, throw out the window like that. Like you were saying, it's like, if I go to that effort to, you know, the, my synopsis that I wrote for this tv. Yeah. Big, big game hunters empty their clip to haul in the most powerful and impactful prize on the market. But do they have enough remaining balancing pieces to make their efforts worth it? And that's ultimately going to be even more critical in year two, where. Yeah, like you were saying, it's like, like we don't really have a lot of just extra Giannis years to throw away. I'm sure we'll hear from Miami fans about that. But Giannis's longevity is just going to be. It's going to be an interesting case study, I think, for the future. Granted, there, there aren't many, if any, cases like Giannis. So at the 10 spot, like I said, team by team, this is going to be. I did not have Miami there. I had Miami at 6. Maybe we'll split the difference and that's

[A]

where we end up.

[B]

Okay, but we'll. We'll see. Yeah. I just think, granted, there's some, like, things that they could go and do, I guess, if they go and make a move or. And I do think that they're gonna, like, pose interesting problems. Like, if you think about, like, the softness that Philly is gonna have at the four or five spot if they choose to start LeBron and, and, and Embiid. It's like those two dudes, I think, are younger and healthier than granted, LeBron's in great shape for his age, but I think they they just have an interesting juxtaposition of like. I do think that they could cause some teach problems, but they're also going to have their own problems anyway. 100 free events 6000 Kids 1 Mission

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[D]

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[B]

So at number 10, who do you have?

[A]

I have the Charlotte Hornets.

[B]

Okay, I admit 11, but go ahead dish.

[A]

I fell in love with this team last year and they obviously lost two starters from like the best starting five in the history of the NBA with LaMelo and Miles Bridges. I still look at them and I'm like they have so much three point shooting. They have a style of play that I don't think can like. I think that it's, it's replicable even without Lamelo next year. And if you look at some of the numbers with Kobe White on the floor, it was like the on off numbers with Lamelo were amazing. He was incredibly valuable. Once they got Kobe White, like when Kobe White was on the floor without Lamelo, their offense still hummed and they had a great net rating that was in the double digits and obviously a smaller sample size but I think that that will carry over and I just think like the gravity that they have with adding Grayson Allen. Obviously con canipple taking another step forward in whatever his development path looks like. I'm just a big fan of the core. Brandon Miller getting even better and potentially getting to an all star level is possible. I'm not saying that that will happen, but it's a possibility. And then adding Nas Reed who's an awesome basketball player and can space at the 5 and I think Charles Lee will do a lot of creative things with him and some of the other names that I've already mentioned, they just have a lot of shooting and I think shooting is, you know, that's, that's what matters in the NBA right now and they have a ton of it.

[B]

So. Yeah, yeah, you mentioned. So this exciting young team with an identity built upon kinetic ball movement and dynamic shooting makes a pivot that was either wisely timed or harmfully premature is what I have. So we will see. But year to year do you think this team got better, worse or is it a push?

[A]

That's a great question. I'm going. I'll say push. But I also think that the Lamelo ball trade was wise and I think that the Miles Bridges trade was like a fucking grand slam had to happen.

[B]

That was a good one. So they add Christian Anderson who really absolutely fits their. I have concerns about him being small and defending but. But I don't have concerns about him shooting the ball. Like he's just. He's a crazy great pull up shooter. They had Nas Reed as you, you mentioned the five spot's gonna be interesting. I mean I would assume that Diabate holds that down and then Steinbach grows into it. But Diabate is just. Was a revelation last year. I mean one of the really cool stories just him, his role within that offense and has really mature. It's been fun to watch him go from this dude who was like a fringe roster guy with the Clippers and it was sort of a hypothetical. Maybe this will be something someday into this guy who was central integral to them. So I. But you know Steinbach is. He fits and interfaces with their personality really, really great. I don't know how much you know about him, but he's. He was just like a generational rebounding prospect at the college level. So he's going to be. He's going to be great for them in that sense and just kind of shore up up. They're not going to get bullied as much. I feel like that was kind of the big thing. You know that playing game was really revealing where it's just they got stuffed in a locker and they went out. We're just like we can't do this again. I mean, that. I feel like that was the big question, but overall, as I'm reading it from your perspective, I mean, it's just sort of a bet on Khan and Brandon eating up some of the oxygen that Lamelo isn't going to be taking up anymore because he's not there.

[A]

Yeah, I'm interested to see how kind of that flows. And I, I thought Con Knippel was like the best off ball player in the entire NBA last season, and that's crazy.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And I want to see what he does with it in his hands a little bit more. And he, he's shown he can do stuff like he's, he's, he is a truly special player. So I just want to see kind of the, the step forward. I know development is not always linear, but I want to see kind of what he can do with more responsibility on this offense.

[B]

I had some times last year and when I was, I remember when I was like riding out his profile, just trying to decide what, what, what images, what, what sort of silhouettes kind of match the way that he plays. I think the strongest one that I had that I kind of took a step back from was Devin Booker, where I was like, this dude plays like Devin Booker.

[A]

Not bad.

[B]

And I'm like, do you think that that's wild? Is that, I mean, what would stop him from becoming a Devin Booker level, production level player if he could?

[A]

You know, because Devin Booker obviously first however many years of his career, it was like the ball's in your hands and he had to develop as a playmaker and, you know, run a ton of pick and roll and read the floor. And I think that obviously Khan is in a way different, more beneficial situation for him, just a better environment. But if he were ever able to handle that type of usage in the same manner and not. I mean, Devin Booker's struggled a little bit with efficiency and the advanced numbers have not always smiled on him for some of those reasons. But I think if Khan were able to be as advanced of a playmaker, the sky is the limit for him. I. Because he can shoot the shit out of the ball in off any type of action and. Yeah, so. And the range is ridiculous. So I just, I just love Clint Knipple. Maybe I'm like, I'm overdoing it there, but he's, he's really good and I just, I'm so excited for his sophomore season.

[B]

Yeah, you mentioned quickly, before we move on here. I mean, just another. I had this pulled up because I thought this was so impressive. Like his three main modes of production, you know, spotting up and transition and pick and roll. He's over 42% on pretty great volume in all three. I mean, he shot two over 250 spot up threes this past year and he was at 43.4%. So this dude's already one of the best shooters in the world. Not in the league.

[C]

In the world.

[B]

I mean. Yeah, granted, if you're one of the best in the NBA, you're one of the best in the world.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah, the Hornets. Yeah, I had them at 11. Okay. Who's your number nine team?

[A]

I have the Pacers.

[B]

Interesting. Okay. Okay. Outside of the playoffs.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's. This was, I think this was the. I don't know about you, this was the hardest team for me to figure out because, like, are they just going to be the team we remember? Are you just going to like throw Halliburton in and they're going to, you know, because in the, that magical playoff run, like everybody made every shot, which I think people might forget. Like they shot the crap out of the ball in a timely fashion. So that like, was that lightning in a bottle or are they just going to be a buzzsaw? And I think obviously, like, they have a lot of the same parts. You have a really interesting change at center with Miles Turner going out and Zubots coming in. And I think Zubots is a better player. I am pretty bullish on him being also a better fit, but I just want to see what it looks like. And yeah, then health is obviously a factor. And I don't know if they have the most depth on this team because guys are just kind of getting older. But Rick Carlisle is a great coach and I just, I don't know, like, what were you thinking when you looked at the Indiana Pacers?

[B]

They were one of the toughest ones because like you said, I ended up having them at seven. Actually, there's another team that I think has, is potentially going to have even more interesting movement than the Pacers. Obviously, year over year, better. This is probably the nerdiest one that I wrote down. You can judge me if you want. I said The Pacers are mid-60s Bob Dylan. They stole the thorny crown in the east and then they immediately sat on the sidelines in a cast. So there's a lot of, like, it's the dorkiest thing out loud, an American pie reference in the NBA. Thanks.

[A]

God bless you.

[B]

If Halliburton comes back and it physically seems a step Slow. It could be an adjustment year before they're back, you know, a year from now, and if he's himself, they'll be as annoying as they were or nearly as annoying as they were in 24, 25. The shooting variance thing is really true. I mean, that was. I don't know. But, like, it's like getting.

[C]

The.

[B]

Getting hot. Like, what. What types of getting hot are credible and which ones aren't? Because they get to the Finals, they almost do it. If he didn't get hurt, what would be. If he didn't get hurt, what would be the difference between looking at them and then looking at what the Knicks just did? Because it's like, you know, are we going to. Are we going to ding the Knicks and say, well, they got. They got hot. Granted, their best player hasn't sat out for a year? I'm just trying to compare, like, the credibility of being hot at the right time. Is it the same? Because it's like. Is it dismissive to just say it was just shooting variants? Because their style of play, their intellect, the things that produced it wasn't that they were just making crazy, contested shots. It was like buy in. It was.

[A]

Yeah, the full court pressure. Nemhard was phenomenal. The way he guarded Shea in the Finals was, like, transcendent. No, I think there's a lot of different factors. They were so disciplined. Low turnovers, playing at a fast pace. They were just really. They were a constant curveball. I felt like for other teams that couldn't really go at their speed and their intensity. So in addition to hitting shots, like, a lot of them were open threes, you know that they're created by Halliburton, by T.J. mcConnell, who was just fantastic in that run, obviously. But, yeah, a lot of different factors that really endeared me to that team. But I just think we're a year removed and we're an Achilles injury to a torn Achilles to our franchise player removed. So there's just natural questions that I want to just see on the court, and how would Pascal kind of fit in? Not that I have questions about Pascal, but just, like, I don't know. Like, it's just. It's just a really weird situation. I don't know what to compare this to. So I just want to. I just want to kind of see how it plays out.

[B]

Halliburton is, like, more than. A lot more than. Gosh, I guess anytime you have a team built around a superstar, like, granted, their style of play is going to dictate your decisions and everything, but it's like Halberton's. He's like a cult of personality in a way that's like really unique. And I was thinking about this when we were comparing him to Anthony Edwards and it's like if you're, if your entire premise for your team is built around as this guy goes, his brain is like the thing that feeds our style. And like his, his, his 0.5 superstar mentality is the thing that dictates the way that we play. It's like if he's a step slow, it doesn't feel like it'd be the same as if like Luca had torn his Achilles. Like knock on. Sorry just to use him any player as an example in that. But like, like, it just doesn't feel the same because like Halberton isn't a pure like Helio offensive player where, where whether we score is dictated like by whether or not he can get his own because he can score. But in comparing him to like Anthony Edwards, as we did like a couple weeks ago, it was like the wolves are, are driven by like if Ant can go out and in the pick and roll, look for his and then, you know, get off the ball. It's like Halberton is an inversion of that idea where it's like he gets off the ball so readily. So it makes if he is a unique case where when he comes back. I hope this makes sense what I'm saying. When he comes back, his, like, I get you, I got you is going to like, maybe not be the same as like other superstar players because he's such a great passer. His brain knows when to get off the ball in a way that like so few superstars do in the NBA. It kind of makes me wonder. I wanted to ask you one thing before we move on. Like, where do you see Zubots being a better fit than Turner, specifically since he's not a floor spacer in the way Turner was?

[A]

Yeah, I think that Zubot's making decisions out of the short roll. He's always been really good at that. And so just as a pick and roll partner, someone who can put more pressure on the rim, I think that, you know, if you saw him with Harden, it was like that was one of the. It was just a beautiful pick and roll. He's got great hands, great touch around the basket, super physical. I think he's a better rebounder than Turner on both sides of the ball and I think he's a better defender just overall than Myles Turner and can do different things and Would not necessarily get played off the floor like Turner did in stretches of that run to the Finals.

[B]

Okay, who did you. I had the Pacers at 7. Who did you have at number 8?

[A]

I have the Orlando Magic.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

I had them at 10.

[A]

I think that this just kind of when I was looking at them, I'll say I initially had them even higher than this when I did the first run through. I'm just a believer, maybe stubbornly, in just the core talent like Paolo Franz Suggs. I like that trio a lot. The idyllic version of them, I feel like is just extremely good. And then I also think that Desmond Bane had a really good year last year in a kind of an uncomfortable situation where he's basically the only guy who didn't get hurt and wasn't used maybe in the best way offensively. And so what makes it really curious to me about the number one thing that's really curious to me about this team is basically no personnel changes from last year. And last year was like a noted disaster. So there's just a lot on Sean Sweeney coming in as a first year head coach. And I don't know, you know, he's obviously known on the defensive end. I'm not saying he can't do things offensively. Offense was their primary issue. Just a total lack of creativity. Very predictable.

[B]

It's Orlando's issue for like eight years. Like it's been, it's been going on since the, since Aaron Gordon was there. It's just they can't seem to shake it.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think that the other thing that Sweeney can do which matters is like, it sounds really stupid and reductive, but like get his players to try hard again. And if you watch the Orlando Magic two years ago versus last year, like their defensive intensity is just not even close to the same level. And that is a non negotiable for this roster based on the offensive issues that they will naturally run up against. So I think that they can have once again a top five, top three defense, defense. And we'll kind of see what goes from there. But the fact that they made no changes to the personnel is like, are you, what's going on guys? What's, what are we doing?

[B]

I had a key departures, Jonathan Isaac, key additions, John Sweeney. It's year to year. I said they're, they're team wise, they're a push. They have to be because they didn't do anything. But you know, I said young, athletic and huge team. Team makes possibly positive coaching change coming out of their ascendant honeymoon phase as the team, after some playoff flameouts and looming questions about not only the compatible of their two perceived stars, but also their individual ceilings. Yeah, I had the magic at 10. Well, to keep. Keep it moving here. But I do, I do agree with you. It's just like, it seems like whenever there's like, a malaise of this isn't working, like, inevitably the effort just gets affected because players can just choose to try harder. And the Magic are an interesting team, man, where it's like, it feels like we're coming point. We're coming to a head in a way here. It's like, I don't know how much Runway these two stars together have, you know, I last.

[A]

Are you, Are you Apollo guy?

[C]

Are you.

[A]

What, what are you. What are your thoughts right now? Where are we at with Paulo?

[B]

He's not my favorite. I mean, I, I, It's. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say. I'm, like, over the moon in love with Palo's game. Like, his inefficiencies, like, have just kind of. And he's not. I, I've just wanted him to kind of, like, become a little bit more flexible in his style because he was on the path to becoming a Julius Randall type guy, and that kind of concerned me, even though I think he's got a lot more disastrous.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's, that's tough. All right, so who's. Who's your number 17?

[A]

The Philadelphia 76ers.

[B]

Okay, well, you kind of, like, hinted at this with your pod with CR Zack Low. I mean, yes. You have. Yeah. You have some sketch. I have. I have Sixers at 2.

[A]

2.

[B]

Okay, explain yourself, peanut.

[A]

All right, I made a list of pros and cons. My pros here for the Philadelphia 76ers are Jalen Brown, LeBron James, Tyrese Maxey, Joel Embiid, and Vijay Edgecomer on the team. That's, that's fantastic. Love that talent. I think that there will be a real fit adjustment. I think everyone, all the names I listed need to find a, find a new role than they played last season. And they need to sacrifice to various degrees. I wonder how many games those five players I just mentioned will suit up in the starting lineup together. That's another huge quagmire here.

[B]

LeBron James be over, under on that,

[A]

like, 25.

[B]

Because of him beat Embiid.

[A]

And also, like, dude, like, okay, okay, a couple things. LeBron's about to turn 42 years old. Like, you know, Like, I. I'm not gonna besmirch LeBron. He's amazing. I just. But it's just like, I'm getting killed. Even in, like, our comments right now with our.

[B]

We can't even get out of the pod and our chat is literally on fire.

[A]

Fire.

[B]

It's on fire.

[A]

I think that, you know, so. So health, reliability, durability, defense. Are they going to have a top 10 defense? That's a question mark for me. Do they have enough shooting? Do they have enough depth? You have Dean Wade and Anthony Simons are kind of like the sixth and seventh men, and then I'm just not a believer. And I don't know, the rookie coming in, you may be able to speak more to that. And. Yeah, and, like, maybe he's a rotation player who can impact winning right away. I don't know. I'm. I'm discounting it because I've never seen him play basketball, but I could obviously be wrong. Okay, go through it.

[B]

Whatever. Yeah, I think there's a chance. I'm not going to say they're. They're one to one in terms of, like, the exact way that they play, but Phylon could end up having some, like, mid-2000s, like, Rajan Rondo e Vibes, the way that he functioned with those Celtics teams.

[A]

Okay, well, you're touching my heart there.

[B]

So he's that type of precocious. Like, he's not the same playmaker passer that Rondo is or processor. It's just like, how many point guards really are? But he. He's a guy that I think could like, sneak in there and become a fan favorite and like, run with the. With these older lineups and make it. Make an impact because he's. He can just. He just fits. What's that fish that grows into the size of whatever tank that might even be? Not even a real thing, but I just think he's just like, folklore. I'm higher on them than you are. I think Wade is a real, like, a real credible role player. Granted, they're not gonna get a ton out of kcp. Bona energy. Just jump in there. I. I think offensively there are enough weapons and there's enough credibility. Like, LeBron's presence, I think should be enough to put things where they need to go because he. He's the most malleable superstar probably of all time. And I think that he will get people to buy in because he just has a history of doing that. And I would. You know that he talked to Jalen Brown before I mean, like, they had a conversation. It's not like, I'm sure that Jaylen Brown didn't, like, see his phone and just, like, think and scream and throw his phone. Like, I, I'm a little more optimistic than you, granted. You know, I, I had the Sixers at two. Who do you have at six?

[A]

Two is very high. I just, I, like. Two is high. I'm just gonna say I, I.

[B]

You just don't think they're going to be better than the Celtics is your thing. Like, you know, this is what people are gonna say to you. So just you. I know you're ready.

[A]

Yeah, we'll get to it. Yeah, we'll get to it. Okay. 6. I'm going. Atlanta Hawks.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I have them at nine.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, they were a tough one. I was moving them up and down similar to the Magic and the Pacers, and just had a difficult time really figuring it out. But when I looked at this team, I just liked their. I thought that their off season has been really shrewd. I thought they brought in, you know, in Aaron Wiggins and Lou Doerr, two guys from one of the better cultures in the NBA and two players who, while we know kind of who Lou Dord is and what he can do, which is very helpful to winning, I think Aaron Wiggins can actually impact their rotation in a positive way because, I mean, this is a guy two years ago in the finals had like 21, 22 points in a game that they won. I think game two, he scored like 22 points. Like, he's a real player who.

[B]

And then he barely played this past year.

[A]

Exactly. True. Yeah, yeah, but just, like, willing to do whatever. I just like players like that. And I think that they'll, like, generally benefit just like the holistic vibes of the Atlanta Hawks, which has not been great for some time. I, I acknowledge that this isn't maybe the biggest front court, but I think they have great positional size across the board. I think defensively, you know, there was. They had the second best defense in the NBA after the All Star break, which you can, you know, take that seriously. I don't take it necessarily super seriously because no one was trying to win basketball games last year. But you add Lou Dort to a Dyson Daniels, Nikhil Alexander Walker trio, and I just think the perimeter defense is just going to be hellacious, and I'm not that worried about the spacing until the playoffs. And this isn't really like a playoff exercise. I think that the Hawks are more built to, like, Be a total bitch to play against in the regular season on a night to night basis. And I haven't even said Jalen Johnson's name yet. And this guy just gets better and better every single season. And the last we remember of him, he was really bad against the Knicks in that series, I thought. But I expect more from him and another all star caliber season. So I just like the depth here. I like the athleticism. I like. They have quite a bit of shooting actually a decent amount. Yeah. So what are your thoughts on the Hawks? They're, they're, they're an interesting team.

[B]

Yeah, they, they definitely. I mean the bitch defensively is just adding Dort to Daniels in a Kong move is, you know, they didn't go out and answer. A lot of people thought that they were going to go try to answer the room protection question. I thought that they might try to do that in the draft with their two picks that they had. I noted this in the draft coverage that they went and basically every guy that they were one of the worst like, like in the playoffs they had one like the lowest assist rates. Like they were near the bottom in a lot of those stats. So it's just like they needed ways to generate good looks. A key thing here, a question that I had is, you know they, you know they add Kingston Flemings, they add Zubi Edge 4 and they had in Revasar Flemings. Could Fleming start for this team? He was one of the most impressive guards I thought in summer league. I just think in terms of adding lubrication to the, to getting these big long athletes. Wow. Wow. Pause. Getting these, these athletes in transition, just getting them easier looks. I think that he could help in that front. But C.J. still, I don't know. I don't know who's going to get the starting nod at the, at the one for the Hawks.

[A]

I don't think they'll have a point guard. They also added Devin Carter from Sacramento and Ryan Nemhardt in the, the Dort Zachary Risachet thing that they did. So I don't, I don't know. I think they have like some options at backup point guard and then I would like to see Kingston Flemings be in their rotation. That would be great. I think they're starting five that they had, you know, rolling over from last year was really good and like hummed down the stretch. And so I, I don't think Quinn Snyder is going to show to shake that up. Particularly if Dyson Daniels can like shoot better than 2 for 20 every time he takes 23 pointers.

[B]

No gears either.

[A]

Yeah, so. But no, I think that that group kind of coalesced really well and Kingston Flemings is a really cool player who I'm intrigued by and he did not shoot the ball well at summer league. I don't care. I think his playmaking, his vision, just like his instincts, he seems like he's going to be an awesome NBA player.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It just again, man, I mean this group, like the 5 through 11 group, it's like you circle back and you're like, they're not going to miss the playoffs, are they? It's like a lot of these. Somebody is going to be the odd man out in a way that is surprising. Who's your number five team?

[A]

Toronto Raptors.

[B]

That's who I. Finally, we're on the same page. Yes, that's who I is.

[A]

This is the first time we had the same team on the same number.

[B]

It's. Yeah, I mean, it's not chalk, man. I mean it's like, it's not obvious. Like, let me see. For the Raptors, year to year, obviously better. I think the, the overall gist, the synopsis that I wrote for this team is in all caps. Kawhi Leonard is still very good and that was it. Kawhi, one of the most effective on ball players in the NBA. Last season he was, let's see, at. In. In pick and roll and transition in ISO. And in the post he was like 90th percentile or higher. You added a guy who has insane. He. He can turn bad possessions into offense. He's developed over a pass, as a passer over his career. The trio of defensively that they're going to have now, they got rid of Brandon Ingram. That's also a big all caps. Yippee, exclamation point. Where do you feel about the. The Raptors of the team that I thought you were going to come with a curveball, just be like they're number two. Because I know you love Kawhi.

[A]

I do love Kawhi. I thought about it. I. And maybe it'll happen. I don't know. I am, you know, living on planet Earth and I am aware that he may not play a ton of games this season. Like I'm aware that the Toronto Raptors, they have an infrastructure of. They defend hellaciously. I use that word already to describe the Atlanta Hawks, but they defend their asses off and they share the ball on offense and they play fast and they get back in transition and they do really smart things. So I feel like, they could tread water and not baby Kawhi. But maybe I just. I have a hard time seeing Kawhi play as many games as he did last year, let's just say. And maybe he will, but he's also, like, playing for money. So that's a question mark in the air. But I think, like, for me, one of the big things, one of the big revelations from the playoffs that we don't talk about at all because it happened in round one, was Scotty Barnes. And he was just like, my God, like, total man's man, 24 points, six boards, 8.6 assists per game. Really efficient for him and generally true shooting above league average. Got to the free throw line for like the first time really in his career at a consistent basis. And like, one of the bigger stats I'll just throw at you not to get too nerdy, but, like 60% of his baskets in the regular season were assisted, and that number dropped to 37% in the playoffs, which is like, you know, what that basically says to me is like, I'm going to take the ball and do stuff with it.

[B]

And what was the efficiency from what to what? But with his assisted unassist, like, how did his true shooting, or do you have that in front of you? Like, did it.

[A]

I have this.

[B]

The.

[A]

The general true shooting went up above 60%, which it like never has before for him.

[B]

And he made basically.

[A]

Yeah, that's. I mean, that's like. I think his. His. It's not like the reason why they traded for Kawhi, but I feel like they were way more emboldened to give up the draft compensation because of what they saw out of Scotty. I think, like, he really showed out in that series that they could have won and probably should have if Emmanuel Quickley didn't miss like, damn near the whole thing.

[D]

So.

[A]

Yeah, we haven't even said Colin Mary Boyles. I just. I have. I like. I like a lot about this team. I think defensively they'll be awesome and hopefully they're healthier than they were last year as well.

[B]

Yeah, I was going to say Scotty also, you know, obviously one of the best defensive players in the league and the most versatile, and he took on tough assignments for the first time in his career. Took on a bigger 8%. 8% of his minutes were at the 5 this past year. So it'll be interesting if he continues to kind of explore that frontier. You mentioned quickly coming back, which will help because, you know, I had down for them spacing, handling, and pull up Shooting were some of the bigger things that I thought could help them. They also added Alan Graves in the off season. This team's going to be a pain in the ass, man. I mean, just that combination of Barnes and CMB and Kawhi together you mentioned, like, it's just. It's a big wow. I'm going to enjoy the Raptors this year. And number four, who's your team?

[A]

Cleveland Cavaliers.

[B]

Same. All right. Okay. We're locking in. I know we're not the same on Sixers, but talk to me about the Cavs.

[A]

We are assuming that James Harden will be on the team. He is currently unsigned as we record this, but I think that this is maybe the best. This could be, like, a totally blasphemous, incorrect statement that I haven't thought too deeply about, but maybe the best offensive backcourt in the NBA, depending on, like, positionally, what you think about the Lakers. Like, I, you know, Donovan Mitchell and James Harden are just, like, really good together, and Kenny Atkinson is able to stagger them in ways that were really productive last year. And this team also didn't have, like, a great Runway in terms of just getting all the everybody on the same page before they went into the playoffs, where it was not the prettiest run to the Eastern Conference finals I've ever seen. No, I'm still an Evan Mobley person. I think he's awesome, and I think trading him would have probably been a major mistake. It's good that they did not do that. And this team just always has shooting. And Kenny's a really good coach. They move the ball. Losing Dean Wade and Keon Ellis, who. Keon Ellis wasn't really in their playoff rotation, but I think he's, like, really good. And so I think losing those two could hurt a little bit. But generally speaking, I like the core here. I like the talent level. I like the possibility of Mobley getting even better offensively. And, yeah, I. I don't know. Like, it just. They. They feel like too good to be worse than fourth is kind of where I landed with them.

[B]

I think that's true, but I also just feel this, like, underlying inescapable dread with them. Where you ran it back with. You know, I wrote down the year to year, it's a push, I think, in terms of their roster, but that's not. That doesn't totally cover it just because, you know, Streuss missed a ton of time and basically just, you know, was. He was like Michael McDonald in that. In that. In that sketch where he's like running into the studio and getting on the mic. Like he got back just in time to, you know. That's my second random old music reference on this pod, but I wrote down a team with two all NBA guards who struggle defensively and two elite bigs that got humiliated in the conference finals, decided that they just want to straight up run it back. Without one of their most important perimeter defenders in Dean Wade, I don't feel like the common person realizes how important he was to them. On that front. They add Malik Thomas, who's just a pure spackler bucket getter. Like he's going to be a. Pat him on the head young guy who's going to be a disaster at times and make bad decisions, but he can score. Like he can score the shit out of the ball. But it's like kind of J R Smith energy. My big thing is that James Harden absolutely shat the bed in the Knicks series. They get swept. He went 5 for 28 from threes. He took twice as many dribble threes as he did catch and shoots in the playoffs. I'm just kind of like, I feel like this team is the ultimate. You know, they run it back and I just kind of feel like they are the embodied. I feel like the response to them should be the are you sure about that? Meme. You know, like, are you sure about that? I just don't like, we're just keeping it going with Harden and I just don't know, man. I do have them as high as you do, but I'm just. I don't have a ton of faith in that. Who do you have at number three?

[A]

Number three? I have the Detroit Pistons.

[B]

I did not have them at number three. They slid the most for me and we could talk about it, but go ahead.

[A]

Okay. So this team, really interesting off season in the sense that they changed their identity. Like they went from like bullies to a team that can actually like shoot. I know that's not like eloquently put.

[B]

This is an optimistic kind of. I don't. I'm not going to say it's hot. It might just be insightful, really, honestly, because is. I haven't heard people talk about. Ton of people talk about this because the. The view has been like, oh, they didn't do or they just did the wrong things. Like this isn't continuing with the momentum that they had. But you think this is a pivot that's going to be healthy for them?

[A]

Yeah, I think that like they were doing 80s era bad boys like pastiche and despite the results that they had last year, number one seed, I think that there's like a clear ceiling on that homage and what it can accomplish in today's league. And I would have. And maybe they still will be more aggressive in going out and getting. I don't know. I feel like they're waiting for Kyrie Irving, to be honest with you. And that's who they're like. They're holding all their.

[B]

That's interesting. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I think, like it's a Kyrie or I've said Trey Murphy a ton. He's just like the en vogue kind of du jour name that everyone throws around. But he would also make a lot of sense here. Kyrie more so in terms of this. They need. Like if I'm looking for an issue with the Pistons, it's that they did not solve the secondary 1b high usage playmaker scorer guy we can throw the ball to when Cade is not in the game or when we need. When Cade doesn't have it going or whatever. But I just like the Isaiah Joe. Like taking Isaiah Stewart and making him Isaiah Joe, that's like the symbolism there for me. And I like that. I think that functionally changes your identity a little bit and your personality as a basketball team. And I think they needed more of what Isaiah Joe can do and sort of like the ghost screens and all the stuff that he did with Oklahoma City that really shook things loose for Shay in a lot of ways. And Shay was. Shay's amazing. Regardless. He doesn't need Isaiah Joe. But when those two shared the floor, you saw some of the stuff, the actions that they ran together were just like, it's impossible to stop. And I think that whether he's setting a back screen on a Spain pick and roll or whatever Isaiah's Joe's doing, he will make others better when he's on the floor. So I just, I just. I like this team. I think they're still tough for sure. They still have a Sar Thompson, they still have Jalen Duran, who I will. He's not signed, but we're going to assume that he's going to be resigned at some point as a restricted free agent. But I just, I like this team. I think that, you know, they, they brought back Kevin Herder, who ideally or theoretically can shoot. And JP Bickerstaff is like, not as much of a fan of him as the front office is, but we'll see. And it's just like we're not as dependent on Duncan Robinson as being our guy is What I like, and the last thing I'll say is I think this might be like, this is like the hot take, I guess. But I think John Collins is just like a better player, let alone a better fit than Tobias Harris for this team.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah. I don't know that I trust him as much in the scale down like creating the sort of like inside the ark creation kind of stuff that Tobias added.

[A]

But I, I like definitely he can't do that.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say it's different. He's different, but he is sort of the prototypical like 4.4.5 that fits next to a player like Cade. You know, I kind of saw. I loved the Isaiah Joe ad. I kind of thought it was underrated, honestly, but I thought he was more kind of fortifying. If Kevin Herder doesn't give us as much because I'm, I'm a little more. With Bicker staff on Herder, I'm like, I, I like Herder, but it's just he's. He wasn't delivering enough. One of the questions that I. The big questions I had for Detroit, their year to year movement, I had them as worse. It sounds like you have them as better, which I, I think is a unique take across the landscape. Or, or if that, if I'm reading

[A]

this right, I think I, I might qualify it as a push. I think they're just different. And I think that Sam Presti said this or believes this or I, maybe I'm misattributing it to him. But you need to shake up your identity in the NBA. Even if you've had success with what you're doing, because the league is going to adapt and prepare better. So I think that if they were to just run it back as like we're going to beat you up and dominate the glass and try to score in transition and create all these turnovers. I don't know if that would work this season. So I like that they changed things up on the fly before that could happen.

[B]

Yeah, the question I had for them was year to year. I think one of the big things here is we talked about how last year there were so many guys out and it was like they had this great year where they seized to the, you know, they seize an opportunity with so many depleted teams and it's like with Halliburton, Zubot didn't play, Tatum, Wagner, Benchiro, Giannis, it's like if they run it back and they don't have the same level of success in terms of wins and losses, it's like, like, I wonder if we end up in a situation where people see the record and they just think, oh, took a step back this year. But really it was just a function of, like, everybody's back. And it. It kind of makes me. And so they did. You know, the wins and losses don't kind of pile as high or the winds don't pile as high. It makes me wonder if they slide a little bit. But that's the. I think your read is the optimist read. We'll see the optimistic read. Talk to me about the Celtics. You're the. You're the foremost. I assume this is a bet on Tatum being back. I saw that. Your. Your take about him being a dark horse. Mvp.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Candidate.

[D]

Cook.

[A]

Cook.

[B]

Bina. Go.

[A]

I mean, this is a team that won 56 games last year. Top four offense, top four defense. They're essentially. The way I'll like, reduce it is they're essentially exchanging Jalen Brown and Nicola Vucevic for Jason Tatum, Paul George and Mitchell Robinson. And a lot of the players who contributed last year who were like, unsung and unknown. And, you know, one of the reasons why I thought that the Celtics would be absolutely terrible last season, like, those guys were actually good and winning players and all super young and getting better. And they have one of the best coaches in the league. They have a style of play that. I think that that's one of the interesting things about the Celtics is how dogmatic will they be this year? About three point shooting? I'm interested to see if they are as they have been. I think that Paul George is really. I mean, he's kind of just become, like, really underrated. He's a better shooter than Jaylen Brown and he makes a lot of sense on this team. Obviously, health is a factor for him. Health is a factor for Tatum. Health is a factor for Mitchell Robinson.

[B]

Have you heard me like, like doing these rants about Jalen Brown versus Paul George? Have you caught wind of any of this? I. I did some there. Yeah. I was arguing with some folks about Paul George. I feel like overall he's underrated in its career, but I'm with you. I interrupted you, but go ahead.

[D]

Ahead.

[A]

No, Yeah. I just think, like, I've said this before, this is where Cliff is just going to stop the recording and murder me in my home. But when you really break it down, I hope you can understand what I'm saying, Kyle. But what does Jaylen Brown do at basketball that's definitively better than what Paul George does?

[B]

At best, I'm with you. I'm with you, dude. I'm with you. I think people are unbelievably disrespectful to Paul George. I think he's been a better and more versatile defender.

[A]

High five to you. Way great.

[B]

Way better pick and roll processor. He's a better shooter. I don't even think it's fucking close. Very quick stories. I know we're going long. I was in a bar with some friends watching the playoffs. This was probably 2018 maybe, but there was a dude there who was a Pacers fan, and I guess he just had Paul George. I don't know why. I don't know. Pacers fans would have disliked Paul. He gave them so much anyway. But I forget how he left. It might have been on bad terms, but he was just, like, heckling Paul George to no one. It, like, kept going on. And we were out in this patio station. He was like, paul George sucks. And it went on for, like, a long time. And I was sitting there with my buddies and I was like, I'm gonna say some of these guys and my friends were going, please don't, don't. Don't do it. They're like, begging me.

[C]

Me.

[B]

And it just went on and on and on. And I finally stood up and I went, paul George is awesome. I was like, what the are you talking about? He's amazing. And I just like, rattled off all this stuff and he was like, couldn't believe I. That a stranger stepped to him about Paul George on a patty. I just had had enough respect. I'm respect. I'm with.

[A]

Good.

[B]

I think he's a. He's a great. He's had his bad playoff moments, but he's a brilliant player. I think he's more of a stretch four now than he was like. He's kind of. He's kind of in a full body cast downhill compared to what he was in the past.

[A]

But 100% don't disagree with that. I just think, like, the way Boston plays, they don't need a lot out of him. They don't need him to be like who Jaylen Brown was, if that makes any sense. And yeah, I just think, like, there's a lot of infrastructure still here that is successful. Like, Peyton Pritchard's really good at his role. He knows his role. He's amazing.

[B]

That's a key. I think Peyton Pritchard step up is a. He's going to be 29 years old. How much? Every time he's been given more leash. He's produced efficiently. Do you think he has another leap?

[A]

Yeah, I don't know how high that is, but even if it isn't anything like, that's great. What he does is awesome. And I think Derrick White's shooting will come back a little bit this year.

[B]

I do too.

[A]

I think instead of him being like the number two option, he's not that because Paul George will be on the team and Jason Tatum is back. So throw in Mitchell Robinson, who is like, I think like a super underrated signing. And really we'll just, you know, Boston's all about possession. The possession game. All smart teams are about the possession game. The Knicks were really successful at that because of the second chance opportunities. Mitchell Robinson creates, grabbing offensive rebounds, kicking them out to open three point shooters. That is. I can guarantee that's why he was so attractive to them. And that is a humongous signing for Boston. So, yeah, I just think the Celtics are going to be like, really, really good. And I didn't even say Ugo yet. I didn't say Ugo.

[B]

You didn't do the Celtics cliche. Say Ugo. Yeah, yeah. This team is good. They're starting five is going to be like an elite catch and shoot unit. Like, I'm with you. That our guy, Isaiah Blakely. I don't want to call him out, but he's pretty down some of the off. I don't want to. I don't want to air dirty laundry here, but he's been pretty down on our guy. Derek. Derek White. I was.

[A]

Oh, God. Sometimes.

[B]

Sometimes if you're rooting for a team, you can be too close to it, I think, and get like. I do this sometimes where it's like you just. I'm not saying Isaiah lost perspective, but I had to kind of be like, it ain't that bad. I.B. i don't know if anybody calls him I.B. i'll do it from now on. So I think, I think the most boring one in this whole order is the Knicks. I mean, they ran it back. They've got a core that I've mentioned on this show that they are all kind of like walking into their primes together, which is super unique. They have a chemistry that I suspect will continue. They unlock something that I suspect will continue in terms of like notable losses. Mitchell Robinson obviously is a big one and he is pretty key to them. Maybe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, how key, I guess is the question. How much do we think? Because the drumming for. For. For Mitch. It's a different player type.

[A]

Yeah, it's a Different thing.

[B]

How big and how. How consequential would that be? Because, you know, we, we talked about the, the Pistons, you know, reckoning with. We expect them to reckon with a. An east that's going to be healthy. The Knicks will do. We think that they're going to be that. What they discovered, was it substantial enough that they're just going to be able to run it back? People are coming for them now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I still expect them to be at the top of the conference.

[A]

Wouldn't surprise me at all if they were number one. I just think that they obviously discovered something about themselves in winning the championship and showing that they are easily the most mentally tough basketball team in the NBA. There's really no debating that. And I think that if they are serious about. I guess this is kind of more of a vibes thing for me. How serious are you about the regular season and how serious are you about protecting your championship every single night and everyone coming at you. Just. Do you care? Are you like, let's. Whatever. Doesn't matter what seed we are. We're gonna get to the playoffs as long as we're healthy. I just want to know what their mentality is because this has been an epic, deserved, but epic victory lap for the New York Knicks. I live in New York City. I still can never go anywhere without anyone talking about them. So I just wonder what their mental approach is as a collective as we head into next season. But they have all the pieces, obviously, and all the talent, and they've found this beautiful alchemy under Mike Brown. And can that carry over for six months? We'll see. But yeah, they deserve to be number one because it would be frankly disrespectful not to have them number one right now.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, they didn't just sort of eke by in a depleted East. I mean, they absolutely stomped a mud hole in the NNE Eastern Conference in the playoffs. Very, very impressive. I'll say I'm not as impressed with, you know, get the bag, OG. But OG's like Skecher shoes. I was saying that's got to be the test. The ultimate test of like championship energy is do you see many New Yorkers wearing the OG Skechers shoes? Pina.

[A]

I will say I was walking out of msg. I will never forget this. After the tip in game like the comeback in. Was that game four. Yeah, Game four. And I was walking home going through Penn Station and I saw a giant OG Anunoby Skechers advertisement on the wall. Like A giant poster. And I was like, you were here in terms of human beings on the planet, and just me seeing that you dropped at least 2, maybe 3 inches. I was disgusted by that. But no, he rules. And that will be like. That's like the greatest thing I've ever seen on a basketball court.

[C]

So.

[B]

Yeah, man, what a. What a time this is. It's. It's. It's wild. You know, I consider myself an Eastern person, you know, I guess I don't. Kentucky. Nobody really claims us, everybody. The south doesn't want us. The Midwest doesn't want us. Obviously the north doesn't want us. Nobody wants us. Pinot? But this in my. In my time in the Eastern time zone, like, see, watching Eastern Conference basketball, I don't know that I can remember it looking the way that it looks right now. So it's going to be. It's going to be a heck of a season. So what do you got coming? Are you working on anything big in the off season here during your quiet time, or are you just reading non. Or reading fiction? You know what's going on?

[A]

Yeah, a lot of reading still.

[B]

But in terms of work.

[A]

Yeah, in terms of work for people who are paying me my salary, I am. You know, I'm.

[B]

Make something up.

[D]

Make something up.

[B]

This is.

[A]

Yeah, we're pseudo crushing tape. We're preparing for podcasts like this. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. August is we're sweating bullets here, getting ready for the season.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I've got some video stuff coming, but yeah, check out the side we've got. I don't know. This is. I always kind of dial into the movie podcasts more this time of year. I get to, like, really breathe and enjoy them. I miss so much of, like, the big picture in ring reverse during the season and I get to, like, circle back and I'll absolutely text Jomi. Hey, I'm finally listening to your.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

So apologies to all our entertainment shows, but check all that stuff out. Yeah. And other than that. Yeah, we'll be back at you sporadically. I know we're going to be kind of ramping back up into our regular schedule on the Ringer NBA feed with our shows and we'll be coming back, so. But Pina, good to see you. Good to hear from you.

[A]

Love you. I'll claim you, Kyle, by the way, I got you.

[B]

I. My God. I appreciate that.

[D]

Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods. Who has your back to school Eats Sorted. Wow. We're going back to school already. They've got your fast and easy breakfast covered with frozen waffles and pancakes. Lunchboxes are looking tasty with organic seedless grapes and baby carrots and essentials like cheese sticks. Then for dinner, you can build your own meal. Choose from a variety of entrees like Chicken Scalpini and two Sides. And it's all good, too. Whole Foods has banned more than 300 food ingredients. Store wide shop back to school must haves at Whole Foods Market, in store or online.