← The Ringer NBA Show
The Ringer NBA Show
'Celtics City' and the History of an Iconic Franchise. Plus, Director Lauren Stowell on Telling the Story of the Boston Celtics.
01:40:48
Loading summary
Transcript191 lines
- [00:00]
Howard Beck
This episode is brought to you by patron 100% additive free tequila. When it comes to ingredients, Patron doesn't need to play games. That's why their tequila is crafted with 100% Weber Blue Agave water and thyme. No sweeteners, no added extracts, no secrets, just 100% additive free tequila. Visit patron tequila.com to learn more. The perfect way to enjoy Patron is responsibly Copyright 2025 Imported by the Patron Spirits Company Coral Gables, Florida Tequila 40% Alcoh by volume this episode is brought.
- [00:34]
Michael Pina
To you by Indeed.
- [00:35]
Howard Beck
Slow and steady doesn't always win the race. One time I needed to hire a painter to paint the outside of my.
- [00:42]
Michael Pina
House and I needed it quick because.
- [00:44]
Lauren Stowell
In Portland, I don't know if you.
- [00:45]
Michael Pina
Guys know this, in the summer everyone.
- [00:47]
Howard Beck
Does everything outside and you have to get it all done before the rains come.
- [00:52]
Michael Pina
And so that's why I used Indeed.
- [00:54]
Howard Beck
And it worked out for me.
- [00:55]
Lauren Stowell
So if you're looking to hire someone fast, use Indeed.
- [00:58]
Howard Beck
Indeed sponsored jobs get 45% more applicants than non sponsored jobs. Speed up your hiring right now with a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com ringermba that's indeed.com ringermba Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.
- [01:22]
Michael Pina
What's up everybody and welcome to a special episode of the Ringer NBA show, maybe the most special episode in this feeds history. I'm Michael Pina, a senior staff writer at the Ringer, and today I'm joined by one of my most esteemed colleagues, fellow Ringer senior staff writer and co host of the Real Ones podcast, the one and only Howard Beck. Howard, it's always lovely to see you. How you doing today?
- [01:48]
Howard Beck
Great to see you. Thank you for calling me esteemed. I feel very esteemed today. So ready to roll.
- [01:54]
Michael Pina
It's the most perfect adjective I could come up with. On today's show, we'll be having a conversation about the new nine part documentary series Celtic City, which premieres on Max on March 3rd and is produced by HBO Sports Documentaries, Ringer Films and Words and Pictures. It's executive produced by our boss, Bill Simmons, along with his 30 for 30 co creator Connor Schell. Later in this episode, our buddy Woz is going to interview the director of Celtic City, Lauren Stowell, which you'll definitely want to stick around for. Until then, enough with the preamble, Howard. You and I both watched this documentary and enjoyed it very much. We also come to this from two very different sides of the spectrum. I was born and raised in Boston. I Grew up a Celtics fan, and despite covering the NBA professionally for over a dozen years, I still have what some, like yourself, might call a psychotic emotional attachment to the team. Meanwhile, you are someone who grew up in California, very much not a fan of the Celtics. So let's start the conversation there. How would you just describe your lifelong relationship to slash opinion of this franchise? And why have you always been super jealous of their fan base?
- [03:14]
Howard Beck
Yeah, the subtext there, of course, is that you and I have had many go rounds of this over the years that we've known each other through, multiple places that we've worked where I have to tweak you a little bit about staying so attached to your Celtics fandom because I am completely emotionally detached from any and all NBA franchises, players, coaches, teams, cities. I. I grew up in the Bay area in the 70s and 80s at a time when the warriors, yeah, they did win a championship in the 70s, but the warriors were not in, like, really part of the zeitgeist. In my. Of my childhood, the. The Bay Area was all about the Niners and the Raiders, the A's and the Giants. The Sharks didn't exist yet. So the NBA in general was not really firmly part of my life as a kid. I think my favorite team growing up, I swear this is no joke, was the Harlem Globetrotters. Like, they were awesome. And they were like. They were on Gilligan's Island. They were like animated on Scooby Doo. And plus like even the. The real live version of them watching them on TV and stuff. Like, those guys were awesome. The warriors, the lakers in the 80s, of course, because we're in California. Like, I had a lot of friends were like huge Magic Johnson fans. So Larry Bird and the Celtics are kind of like this distant thing. Even when I got to college run TMC is going on at that time. So the warriors are finally starting to like, become a little bit more. But like, the Celtics were a distant thing. I will tell you my first real introduction to the Celtics and Celtics Lakers as a thing. My first year as a Laker beat writer in 97 at the LA Daily News. The first player I got to sit down with for a feature story was Rick Fox. Rick had just come from the Celtics where they renounced his rights. And Rick was. It's funny because a lot of the quotes I remember having looked up actually are so much in line with the things you see in this documentary about the way Paul Pierce and others talk about the Celtics and about winning is like the only thing there. Rick Fox is wired that way he joins the Lakers and he chooses the number 17. Why? Specifically because at that time the Celtics were stuck on 16 and Rick had just gone through some hellacious years with the Celtics and it had his bird rights renounced and he picked 17 because as he told me, I want to win my first championship with the Lakers before they win 17. And I think honestly, in my professional career, just in my life, that's the first time I really feel like the gravity of what it means to have been associated with either of these franchises. And in Rick's case, as somebody who lived on both sides of that divide, all of which is to say very distant relationship for me personally growing up. But like your relationship to the Celtics is clearly much more personal. You grew up there. But as I was scrambling to do the math, I realized suddenly you missed out on the 80s dynasty because you're just a youngin. So how do you end up like being immersed in Celtics exceptionalism when most of your life not to. To, you know, to overdo this, but you. You're growing up at a time when they're kind of, you know, in. In the desert and trying to find their way back.
- [06:21]
Michael Pina
It was super sad. There's an episode in this doc, which I don't think we can spoil this doc, you know what I mean? Like, we're not going to go through the beat by beats of every episode, but there is an episode that basically covers my childhood. The teams that were so terrible. It's the Rick Pitino era, if you will. And it's just a lot of what could have been, honestly just terrible luck from. I mean, this was before I was born, but Len Bias dying, Reggie Lewis dying, not to equivocate these things, but bad luck in the lottery where they could have gotten Tim Duncan and as a. I think I was about 10 years old for that NBA draft lottery, being told that there was a 40% chance that we were going to get Tim Duncan and everything would be fine and he would be the next Bill Russell and we'd be saved to getting Ron Mercer and Chauncey Billups and being super depressed. It was tough. But I am not super proud of this. But I did spend a portion of my childhood rooting for the San Antonio Spurs. We talked about this right before we started recording because I love David Robinson. And when Tim Duncan went there, I was like, oh, it's just. This is serendipitous. I'm meant to be a San Antonio spurs fan. And as the years kind of went on and they got Paul Pierce a Few years later, and I was like, okay, there's someone I can actually root for and who I can watch their career from the ground up. He's super talented player, the best player, better than everyone from my. My younger years watching the team. And so then you just kind of are, you know, they're competitive, they go to the playoffs, etc. And it's. It kind of grows from there. But I want to talk real quick about just kind of watching this documentary, how it. Like, where I came from, watching it beyond just fandom, which was, you know, I'm a lover of basketball, I'm a lover of the Celtics, etc. But also as a person from Boston, I thought that this was a really powerful piece because this documentary captures so much of what the city is and how it's evolved and why it's so ugly. And from, like, the racism to the busing to segregation to, you know, the iconic and super disturbing photo of Ted Landsmark at City Hall. But then at the same point, that there's progressiveness and there's provincialism and there's pride. And I thought that what was really interesting to me was just like the voice and the platform that this documentary gave to black people in Boston who are completely erased from the national conversation when people think about Boston. And, you know, we don't have to have a huge Boston conversation, but I thought it was really interesting. Just how I feel like this doc will either reinforce how you feel about Boston going into it, or it will change your tune a little bit, and it'll make you come at it from a different perspective. So I'm just curious from that standpoint, did it reinforce your previous views of the city's history, or did you come at it and see, oh, maybe something is pivoting a little if you didn't.
- [09:40]
Howard Beck
Grow up there, if you didn't live through it. And especially, again, for me, as a California native who was very distanced from it, there's an image and a discussion and there's things in the history books, right. Like you have a vague sense of it, and Boston has the reputation that it has and very much earned at times. I think it's as more as an NBA beat writer for the last 20, 28 years that, you know, you start to hear a little bit more of the personal tales that of what players went through, especially players in the 60s and 70s. And from a Boston perspective, the moment you referenced of Ted Landsmark, like with the flagpole in it's City Hall Plaza, it's called. Right? Yeah, that's an iconic photo. Just as a journalist, I'm looking at that photo like, oh, I know that photo. Oh, my gosh, they've got him in the documentary. Really powerful stuff, too. A lot of people in this documentary had some just very poignant observations about the strange juxtaposition of a franchise that was the first to draft a black player, the first to have five black starters, the first to have a black head coach. The juxtaposition of that with all the racial tensions and riots and desegregation, bussing, fights, ugliness, the things that Bill Russell had to go through, had to live through, even while leading them to championships, it's really powerful. And I think one of the things that I was really struck by, literally from the first moments that I turned on the screeners for this, this documentary, was they didn't waste any time. It's like in the first minute or two of episode one, and it is. It comes back to it, these themes of racism and desegregation and racial tensions. I think what I really appreciated about this documentary, this, you know, you're talking about the iconic franchises in sports with immense success. This could just be a celebration. And in parts it is, but it told the whole story. And I think that's what I really appreciated about it. From just a journalistic perspective and as a viewer, as an NBA fan, as somebody who's been around the league a long time, these. These teams and these players, you know, exist in a context, and the context of Boston is fraught. It's complicated, and they did not shy away from any of that. In fact, this documentary, I think, very much embraced it. They got a lot of really great voices, both the NBA and. And from media voices, everything else.
- [12:11]
Michael Pina
Right?
- [12:12]
Howard Beck
And even to the point of having. You know, when Doc Rivers is. Is. Is talking in the documentary, he says that when he took the job with the Celtics, other black coaches warned him, you're not going to be able to get black players there. You're not going to get top free agents, and warned him that you. You should consider this. And so, like, there. This is unvarnished. There is. There is nothing that's papered over here. And that's what I think makes it a much richer story. So I thought that was really well done, well said.
- [12:42]
Michael Pina
I mean, I loved it from that perspective. I just. I'll say, like, I loved the documentary from the sense of, like, it's like my personal O.J. made in America. Like. Like, it's something I will show my son and my daughter when they're old enough to understand this. It's like if anyone ever asks me why I love the Celtics or what it's like to be a Celtics fan, I can just be like, watch this, watch Celtic City. Which was, which is a tremendous, like, gift for me as a basketball fan and lover. What beyond. You just touched on this a little bit. But what beyond what you've already said about the documentary? Did you like, like, let's be just, you know, broad. And what did you want to see more of?
- [13:34]
Howard Beck
It's interesting. I did find myself. So somewhere in the middle of the documents, there's nine episodes. Obviously they're. And they're an hour each. There's a lot to pack in. So by the way, like, whoever had to do the editing, making the decisions and all this stuff, like what to whittle down on, like, really difficult because you're talking about, you know, 70 plus years of history and there are, there are times where there's a bit of a jump and some stuff like you just kind of have to skip past so you can't get all of it in there. So it's not really a criticism as much as it is an observation about, like, there's just a ton of stuff to pack into this. I really enjoyed as somebody who I was still in the Bay Area, obviously in the 80s. So Lakers, Celtics in the 80s is something that resonates across the country. Right. But you know, this is a time before I didn't have cable tv even in San Jose, but. But there's no league pass, there's no satellite. There's a handful of national games per week or whatever. I didn't see most of it. I've caught up over time during my career. I found myself wanting more of Magic and Bird, Lakers and Celtics. I found myself wanting more of that again when it became the Kobe Lakers and the Pierce Celtics. And you could do an entire series just on that. Right? And that series have been done, books have been done about the rivalry. And so there was some of that. There are a few people in particular I thought, oh, I would have liked to have seen her from this guy we both know having. Doing the jobs we do. Like, you make a zillion calls, you don't get everybody you want. And also we have no idea what was left on the cutting room floor for this documentary. But I appreciate that it gave enough time to each of those eras that when you're showing it to your kids, years from now, they're going to get a sense of what it was like to be A Celtic or a Celtics fan in the 60s and all that went with it, they're going to get a sense of what some of the, the, you know, lower moments were for the franchise, a sense of what the, the first Big three were about. The second Big three, the new big.
- [15:36]
Michael Pina
Three were about the cultural importance of Peyton Pritchard hitting a half court shot in game five to win the 2024 NBA championship.
- [15:44]
Howard Beck
Just.
- [15:45]
Michael Pina
It's hard to really put that into words.
- [15:47]
Howard Beck
It was the next thing I was going to say, literally the next thing I was going to say. But it's also, you know, a couple people in the documentary say this, and I would say this as an outside observer. There's so few franchises in sports, any sports, and in the. And in the NBA, it's really only the Lakers and Celtics where you could go decade by decade. And again, like there was only, you know, eight to 12 teams at any time in the 60s, I think. So, like, we literally don't have 30 teams to choose from to do this exercise with with. But if you were trying to tell the story of sports in the US in the 20th century, 20th to 21st, and you were trying to weave in everything about it, about, you know, issues of race and socioeconomics and all the things that go with. With sports too, just petty jealousies and fractured relationships and, you know, having to. To kind of like rebuild on the fly or go through these fallopian. Everything you could say about sports. Every version of every theme you and I have ever touched on as sports writers is contained within the Celtics history, in addition to a lot of the societal context. And so there are threads that go through the whole thing that I think are really interesting in that regard. And also, like, yeah, there's a Celtics exceptionalism where Paul Pierce is talking about at the beginning and the end of this documentary about what it means to be a Celtic and about. There's only one. There's only one acceptable outcome ever. And having covered the Lakers for seven years, I very much can appreciate that because it's probably the only other franchise in this league where you can say that, where it's always championship or bust, and there is no other happy outcome.
- [17:25]
Michael Pina
Larry Bird has a quote where he's basically like, if you don't play for the Boston Celtics, you don't play professional basketball.
- [17:34]
Howard Beck
Incredible quote. Incredible quote.
- [17:36]
Michael Pina
Great quote.
- [17:37]
Howard Beck
A bit overdone, Larry. Like, it's a bit much. Little disrespectful to like, you know, honestly, hard to argue.
- [17:42]
Michael Pina
I totally get what he's saying, but.
- [17:45]
Howard Beck
I Think what I appreciated about it, again, having been immersed in Lakers exceptionalism, which great at times. That was the. That was the similar. That's the echoed version across the country of the other version of this, where it's like, oh, no, we're the only franchise that matters. Come on, guys, settle down just a little bit. But, like, the Bulls did win six championships in the 90s. You know, Michael Jordan, he was. He was pretty good. Tim Duncan and the spurs with their five. Like, there are other franchises where greatness is expected and where they have a rich tradition. It's just that none of the others can go that far back. But I appreciate that Larry Bird or Paul Pierce or any of them who lived this, they internalize it so deeply that he can say that with a straight face and absolutely mean it, and I respect it.
- [18:29]
Michael Pina
That's the best part about this whole thing. Going back and seeing Jerry west and the pain and the anguish on his face when he's doing an interview, like, 50 or 60 years later, Pat Riley talking about his, like, hatred still to this day for, like, Kevin McHale, it's.
- [18:52]
Howard Beck
All a little unhealthy, I would say.
- [18:54]
Michael Pina
I mean, one of the episodes is called Fuck the Celtics, and it's a quote from James Worthy.
- [18:58]
Howard Beck
Yeah.
- [18:59]
Michael Pina
And he actually, James Worthy had one of my favorite quotes in the whole thing where he says, after Talking about game two of the 84 finals, when he throws this pass at the very end of the game and it's intercepted by Gerald Henderson, it's a momentous moment in the series, and it leads to the Lakers never really recovering. And he says, it's a wound that doesn't bleed anymore. It's been stitched up, but it's a scar. It's there. And it's like, that is. I don't want to get too sanctimonious, but, like, that's why we write about basketball for a living. That's why we do what we do. It's part of what drew me to the NBA, like, the passion and the emotional resonance. And it's like, this stuff doesn't matter, but it's also the only thing that matters, Joe.
- [19:42]
Howard Beck
I mean, yeah, for sure. I. Actually something struck me at a certain point, and I'm curious if you picked up on this or if you saw this, too, or if maybe. Maybe I just didn't pick up on it as acutely. It seemed to me like the Lakers in particular, you mentioned West, James Worthy, Riley, they have not gotten over. In Jerry's case, it's. It's it's the 60s in particular. Even though, you know, he's now presiding over them in the 80s when they, you know, the Lakers win a bunch of titles and they out, out, you know, they beat the Celtics, they win five to the Celtics three. And that doesn't matter. Like that has not eased Jerry west pain whatsoever. I did not pick up on the same level of just bitterness or enduring pain on the part of the Celtics who had to have their losses at the hands of the Lakers too. But also just, you know, those rivalries were really intense. We like, we've all grown up on hearing these legendary rivalries and the hatred and whatever people miss. A lot of people who are old miss, miss like the, the tension of the, of the old NBA where guys actually hated each other, they didn't go out for drinks afterward and all that stuff. It did seem to me like the Lakers had internalized a lot of that pain, much more so than the Celtics of the same era. Am I, am I missing that? Like, I'm not saying the Celtics weren't affected by losing or by the demise of their 80s dynasty. It just didn't seem like the bitterness was quite on the same level going the other direction.
- [21:09]
Michael Pina
Well, I wonder if the Lakers were the subject of the documentary and you interviewed some of the Celtics about.
- [21:15]
Howard Beck
Sure.
- [21:16]
Michael Pina
That time that maybe you would see that type of, that dissonance right there. But you know, you touched on this a few minutes ago. But just the singularity of the Boston Celtics and them being, I mean like not every subject in our culture in our country's history is worth nine episode documentary series. And you talked about how like there's very few teams that even go back that far who still, that still exists, that have had success worth talking about. What, what is there any. The Lakers are obviously an example. Is there any other organization that you could see having such rich text to go off from to do a project like this?
- [22:09]
Howard Beck
I mean, when I start thinking about not just the basketball. Right, because like, all right, we all watched the Last Dance. That was what, 10 episodes. And it's not just about the last year of Michael Jordan, it's about the entire Bulls dynasty. So clearly there was enough there. But that was, if I'm recalling correctly, haze of COVID lockdown, everything notwithstanding, I think that was pretty like 95% basketball, right. Or 98% basketball and then 2%, whatever Dennis Rodman was doing. But it's, I don't think that too many other organizations could be a stand in for what's going on in society. In a given time, either you could with the Lakers because there were race riots in la. Rodney King happened. There's a, you know, games were moved.
- [22:59]
Michael Pina
There's, there's also so much drama with the Lakers. Right.
- [23:03]
Howard Beck
Forever and ever.
- [23:04]
Michael Pina
Exactly. But it's like some of it's contrived, and I'm saying this as a Celtics fan, some of it's real and it's like historical, super important and pivotal points in the history of the league. And there's like off court stuff that we don't need to get into, but all that stuff. I think you could do a Lakers thing like this for sure. It would be very engaging, but I.
- [23:27]
Howard Beck
Don'T know how many others. Right. Like there's, there's not, there are some other teams that are worth the time on the basketball side, but I don't know if you could have had the same kind of interweaving of important issues of the day and the broader context. I mean, listen, I'm guessing Detroit, Detroit's been through some stuff as a, as a major city in America. There's probably a Detroit version of this. There could be an Oakland version of this when the warriors were still there, which was, you know, most of their time, and, but not that many, I don't think. And especially when, you know, it's the, it's, it's the aura of the Celtics or the Lakers that draws you into the first place and gives you the opportunity to then pull in these other things and say, okay, what, what, what was the context that these games and these championships were being won or lost in? So you have to start there. They have to be interesting enough on the sports side of it to delve into the rest of it. So I don't know that there's any too many other teams you could do that with.
- [24:23]
Michael Pina
And a lot of this when we talk about history, when I was a child, just looking back on the Celtics and even in the present day, I was obsessed with what if moments. It was a huge thing for me. If this shot doesn't go in or this ping pong ball doesn't come up this way, everything is different. And that's what is so engaging to me about Celtics history. And, you know, you could go from what if the St. Louis Hawks never trade Bill Russell? What if they don't spite themselves and trade Bill Russell to the Celtics? What if John Havlicek never injured his shoulder in 1973 and they lose Game 7 against the New York Knicks at home? There's so many different what ifs that are really fascinating.
- [25:11]
Howard Beck
What if Len Bias, Reggie Lewis, Len Bias.
- [25:16]
Michael Pina
I mean, I had, like, a sick obsession with Len Bias because it was like, as a child, the team being terrible and everyone being like, this was the guy who was supposed to make your childhood good as a sports, as a Celtics fan. And to have him die as tragically as he did, it's. It's like you can't even really verbalize it. It's monumental, the amount of talent. Imagine if Michael Jordan never existed. What would the NBA be like today? You know what I mean? So.
- [25:47]
Howard Beck
And they were talking about Len Bias in those kinds of tones.
- [25:51]
Michael Pina
Absolutely.
- [25:52]
Howard Beck
And who knows what his career could have been? And obviously, it's a tragedy on a human level much before. It's a tragedy on a basketball level, of course. But. But through the lens of a Celtics, young Celtics fan like you, or through that franchise. Yeah, the sliding doors moments of things. What could have been if Len Bias doesn't overdose, if Reggie Lewis doesn't die of.
- [26:14]
Lauren Stowell
Of.
- [26:14]
Howard Beck
Of a heart issue. You mentioned the ping pong balls. I mean, there's, you know, the Duncan one that you mentioned. But then there's also the year that they should have been. Could have been in the running for either Greg Odin, which wouldn't have turned out so well, or Kevin Durant.
- [26:27]
Michael Pina
Well, Danny Age is on record saying he would have selected Kevin Durant.
- [26:30]
Howard Beck
So they're all on record as saying they would have selected Kevin Durant now. But there's things like that. Here's the other one that hit me as I'm watching this. As a Bay Area native, the very first warriors game I ever attended as a child, I want. I want a drawing at a children's shoe store to be the honorary ball boy for a day. I was like, nine.
- [26:55]
Michael Pina
Okay.
- [26:57]
Howard Beck
The center for the warriors at that time, Robert Parrish.
- [27:01]
Michael Pina
Wow.
- [27:02]
Howard Beck
So they. They mentioned the trade in there. Like, you talk about these sliding doors moments, and also, you know, the Celtics being almost gifted some things that trade is. Is Robert Parrish and the pick that becomes Kevin McHale for the number one pick, which is Joe Barry Carroll, or as he was called in the Bay Area, Joe barely cares. So I was not old enough or immersed in the NBA enough or attentive enough at that time in my childhood to have realized the tragedy that had just befallen my, you know, more or less hometown team. That's something I learned much, much later in life. But holy moly, like, talk about, you know, robbery. I mean, that's the. That's the Luca trade of Its day.
- [27:48]
Michael Pina
Yeah, for sure. And even more recently. And this is touched on in the doc, but it's like, I mean, this is one I literally think about like once a week because I'm a true sicko. But if Kevin Garnett doesn't hurt his knee In Utah in 2009, does Kobe Bryant ever win another championship post Shaquille O'Neal? And then how do we look at Kobe Bryant and how do we look at that big three era where they could have won three straight or four straight? And then if you do that, then I don't think. Who knows? But I don't think Danny Ainge is probably trading them to the Nets for Paul Pierce and Kevin Grant to the Nets for those picks. And then what are the Celtics today? So it's just like, those things are just really. They're fascinating to me. They break my brain and. Yeah. So, I mean, speaking of, you know, going back in time, you've been a beat writer for. You were a beat writer, I should say, for a very, very, very long time. Not to age you. If I gave you. If I gave you a time machine, Howard, which Celtics season would you most want to cover?
- [28:59]
Howard Beck
It's a really tough one. I mean, obviously there's a lot of, like, covering championship seasons. It's enjoyable in a different way. Right. You, I, you have no emotional investment, the team you're covering. So I cover three straight Shaq and Kobe championships. They're actually dull at times because they're winning so much.
- [29:16]
Michael Pina
It's like, as a writer, super dull. Agree.
- [29:18]
Howard Beck
No, as a writer, you need things to be changed up. They, they, they had like three separate double digit win streaks.
- [29:25]
Michael Pina
Right.
- [29:25]
Howard Beck
Their first championship season, Shaq and Kobe. And I'm like, waiting for them to lose. So we had something else to talk about. Like, after a while, like, the dominance gets boring. Not for Laker fans, but for me as a writer, I'm.
- [29:34]
Michael Pina
Well, then some stuff did happen and you had some stuff to write about.
- [29:38]
Howard Beck
They provided more than enough material for us. Thank you. Shaq and Kobe and Phil. So when I'm looking at the Celtics, I actually, I gotta say, I don't know which season in the 60s it would be.
- [29:54]
Michael Pina
Oh, you went back to the 60s. Okay.
- [29:56]
Howard Beck
Because one Bill Russell is just absolutely fascinating. I never got the honor of meeting him. I was in the room with him a few times over the last 28 years. Years or, you know, 26 before he died. But he's such a presence and a little bit of intimidating one. And I never had, like, I just Never felt right to just go up and say, hello, hi, Mr. Russell. Howard Beck from wherever I was working at the time. But he's. He's fascinating as. As a player, as an activist, as a presence, as just one of the most important figures in NBA history. I think I would have gone back to the six. And also, like, not. Not for nothing, 60s or 80s, I would have wanted to be. I would have wanted to cover one of those dynasty eras. Right, because that's when you get to see basketball at its best. Some of the most important players. Just getting to document history is part of the thrill of doing the jobs we do. But I think the 60s, just because of. Of the backdrop to it all, Civil rights era and Bill Russell's involvement in it all. I think, you know, you think about this selfishly, the stories you get to tell and the people you get to meet and the questions you get to ask them. And like, as. Again, as fraught as that era is, and not to diminish it, but as you know, we talk about being the. We write the first draft of history as reporters. Man, that's a pretty damn good first draft to get to.
- [31:26]
Michael Pina
Right? So you'd go back to 1969 and ask Brett Auerbach if he was satisfied with the coaching and then push Bill Russell into retirement. Is that. Were you going to be that guy?
- [31:39]
Howard Beck
I don't think I would have been that guy. There are some moments.
- [31:41]
Michael Pina
Did you know that story, by the way, before you saw that in the doc? No, I didn't either. That was. That was fascinating to me and, like, super tragic and kind of. It's. It's a culmination of years of not being good enough because of the color of your skin, frankly, for Bill Russell in Boston. And it's tragic. I mean, he was obviously, like, past his prime as a player, but that's besides the point. What he was doing was he let outside voices kind of influence one of the bigger decisions professionally of his life. And that's, like, super sad. I mean, in 1968, he's Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year and one of the most consequential years in American history, to be honest, or that century. So that was, like, super. That was a bummer.
- [32:32]
Howard Beck
It's. It's also just instructive for people who, especially if you're. If you're younger and, you know, look, I mean, hopefully everybody gets the education that they need on these things, but there are moments that just remind you of just how broken we were as a society in some ways, when you Hear a reporter asking Bill Russell on the day that he's introduced as the Celtics new coach, can you. I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember exactly the wording of this terribly awkward, awful, insulting question, but it was basically, can you manage the roster and make decisions on players without having racism in reverse? But he said it. Racism in reverse or something, I think was the way that the reporter constructed it. And Bill Russell, to his credit, just said, no, meaning, no, there won't be a problem. Or maybe it was yes, I can. It was a yes or no answer. He could have given a much more pointed and would have been justified in giving a much more pointed answer, but in the context of that time, probably had to restrain himself from really going at the guy. But it's an incredibly insulting question. But the very fact that somebody would ask it at a press conference back then just reminds you that back then, that that's how a overwhelmingly white media and white society saw these things. That. That the idea of a black head coach, like, well, how could they do. How can he possibly do a fair job?
- [34:01]
Michael Pina
Planning by players.
- [34:02]
Howard Beck
Yeah. Oh, my God. And there are. There are various moments like that. There's a moment. Again, this is what I appreciate about the documentary and how unvarnished it is. There's a report where they're talking about. And this is during the time, like, in the late 70s, early 80s, and David Stern has often talked about this, where we reviewed as being too black and all this. And there. There's literally like a news report, like one of the national networks, I think.
- [34:24]
Michael Pina
Oh, my God. Yeah.
- [34:25]
Howard Beck
And you know what I'm talking about.
- [34:26]
Michael Pina
Oh, yeah.
- [34:27]
Howard Beck
The white fan who. Who basically says, like, yeah, you know, there's too many black players, and I can't. It's like, I can't root for them. Like, what? Holy shit. And again, it's instructive because you look at that now and you cringe and you think, oh, my. You allowed yourself to be filmed on TV saying this. But it. The fact that that person would not think twice about it or that reporter back in the 60s would not think twice about asking Bill Russell that question is a very important reminder of where we've been and sometimes, unfortunately, where maybe sometimes we still are in various parts of our world.
- [35:00]
Michael Pina
Yeah. The smile on Bill's face as he's answering the question. I, like, paused the screener because it's just like a smile that says, I want to strangle this person.
- [35:10]
Howard Beck
Yeah. Or at least read them the riot act. Like. Like there's there was a tirade like just simmering behind his one word answer and he again credit to him for not doing it.
- [35:23]
Lauren Stowell
Yeah, you want control of your financial future and Schwab knows that.
- [35:28]
Howard Beck
That's why when it comes to managing.
- [35:29]
Big Woz
Your wealth, we give you more choices.
- [35:32]
Michael Pina
Like full service, wealth management and advice.
- [35:34]
Big Woz
When you need it most. You can also invest on your own.
- [35:37]
Howard Beck
And trade on thinkorswim, our powerful award winning trading platforms. Plus you'll get low costs, transparent pricing.
- [35:43]
Lauren Stowell
And 247 live help.
- [35:45]
Big Woz
Because at Schwab we understand it's your.
- [35:48]
Lauren Stowell
Financial journey and we believe you should have choices in how you invest. Visit schwab.com to learn more.
- [35:54]
Howard Beck
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium.
- [35:59]
Lauren Stowell
Wireless for 15amonth plan that I've been enjoying.
- [36:02]
Howard Beck
It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to 15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra fee full terms@mintmobile.com this episode is brought to you by Lifelock. During tax season, your personal info travels to a lot of places between payroll, your tax consultant and the IRS.
- [36:34]
Michael Pina
If your W2 gets exposed, that's just.
- [36:37]
Howard Beck
The ticket for identity thieves. That's why Lifelock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Don't let identity thieves take you for a ride. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply which leads.
- [36:55]
Michael Pina
Me to my next question for you Howard, which is, who do you think the most important person in Boston Celtics history is and why is it Rick Patino?
- [37:05]
Howard Beck
I thought you'd say why is it Peyton Pritchard? Is this an obvious no, I don't think it's obvious. I think it's almost a a tie or it's hard to split hairs on this because it has to be Bill Russell. But there's so much of a case for Red Auerbach. It's one or the other, if not both. There is no other answer. Right.
- [37:35]
Michael Pina
In my head I was trying to come up with some other people and the only I would say like a distant, distant, distant third is Larry. Like because he resurrected the franchise in the 80s and et cetera, et cetera but yeah, I think that it's between Bill and Red. And for me, it is somewhat obviously, Bill, he's one of the most iconic figures in league history. He's the NBA's first revolutionary superstar. The foundational. You know, you're always going to give credit to the player, right?
- [38:13]
Howard Beck
Absolutely.
- [38:13]
Michael Pina
Foundational centerpiece of the league's first dynasty. And to take it a step further, when I think about Bill Russell, and this was really touched on and reinforced watching it is like his approach to his craft and his job was one that is so admirable in the sense that he was team first. He was selfless, cared about teamwork, cared about camaraderie, cared about chemistry, cared about the need to make everyone around you better, to play basketball the right way, to not care about statistics. He talks about in the doc, which is like, really well verbalized, how he knew that he couldn't beat Wilt Chamberlain one on one. So he's not going to. He's going to elevate everyone around him and his team will beat Wilt's team. And that's what historically happened almost every single time they played in a playoff series. And I just think that that's like. Like that mentality has kind of carried through to many superstars throughout NBA history, but also to usually whoever is like the prime person playing for the Boston Celtics, which I think is really, really fascinating.
- [39:34]
Howard Beck
He set the template, right? This. And this is why he probably is the answer to your question, right? Without Bill Russell as. As the template, as not just iconic because of the championships won and everything that went with it. It's the value system behind it, right. If you're going to talk. Because it's like, listen, it's a little bit of a stretch or a construct for us in the present to say, oh, Celtics tradition. It's about all these different things. And you can draw this line straight from Bill Russell to, you know, Bird to Pierce and Garnett to now Tatum and Brown. It. It's convenient and it's. And it's neat to be able to say all that, but all those values and traditions weren't always upheld. Right. There are moments where the franchise goes off track, where it doesn't uphold these things, where it has players who don't uphold those ideals. We can say that these are the values and the, you know, we always use culture now, the culture of the Celtics. Yeah, it's there at various stages and it's not there at other stages. So it's not embedded in the franchise. The franchise has had Ownership changes and obviously front office changes. But to the extent that there's something to live up to, and you hear player after player and coach after coach in this documentary say it, that you walk in and you look up at those banners and you feel the weight of it. There's a scene late in the documentary where Pierce and Garnett are visiting. I think it's their first time visiting the Auerbach center, whatever they're calling the new practice facility. Really nice facility. And there's these, like, floor to ceiling murals, and you've got, like, Bird mchale and Parrish staring down at you, and Bill Russell and Havlicek and Koozie staring down at you, and our back staring down at you. And even Pierce and Garnett, who are also up there staring down at themselves, are sitting there just, like, in awe of this. And again, it goes back to why this team is worth this and why only a handful of teams could be worth a documentary like this, because how many would have an entryway to their facility where you would look up and go, holy shit, this is. This is what we have to live up to. This is the tradition. And you could just sit there in awe or look up at the banners and. And know that, like, there's an expectation, but that there are values behind that. That the values that guided Bill Russell and made him the great player that he was. It wasn't just about, like, oh, he's the best player by skill set or height or athleticism or whatever. It's. It's the way he approached the game and the selflessness and being about team. And that's why you then can, as a coach who was born long after that, you can still say, guys, look up there. You know how they got those by playing for each other. And like, it's. That's. That's important. And so the Auerbach case would be this, though. And I still think I agree, it's Bill Russell. But my gosh, again, aside from Auerbach and maybe Jerry west pop to an extent in the modern era that you can bridge so many eras and still be around that Auerbach is there to win all these championships with Bill Russell, to set the standard for what it means to be a champion in the NBA and then still be around years later, gone and then back to usher in the Bird McHale Parish era, to make the deals that made that happen, and then to still be around for, you know, kind of inching into the next era, like, and being able to influence some of the people put Them in place. Bring back Danny Ainge.
- [42:49]
Michael Pina
Also like trading. I mentioned Gerald Henderson before trading Gerald Henderson, who's this hero coming off that finals right in 84. And you trade him the next year to get a pick, and that pick is Len Bias. So it's like that decision even is like it's always thinking ahead, always trying to set up the next era. And that's amazing.
- [43:10]
Howard Beck
The mere fact that you can trace so many of these pivotal moments through one person. Red hour back, like, again, like that, that just doesn't happen. There's a. Again, a little bit of that with Jerry west and the Lakers because he goes from being, you know, a legendary player to being one of the greatest team executives of all time and putting his fingerprints on it all and then handing off to Mitch Kupchak his designated successor. And so that spans decades. But my gosh, other than those two, I don't even know if there's another example of it.
- [43:41]
Michael Pina
Did your opinion of anyone in the DOC or just affiliated with the Celtics or whatever, was it. Was your opinion altered or changed for better or worse after watching this?
- [43:54]
Howard Beck
I don't. I don't think so. But I will say that a couple things stood out on that note. I had no idea I knew about Dennis Rodman basically saying Larry Bird's only considered great because he's white. And then Isaiah Thomas chiming in and laughing, whatever. And then that being construed a certain way that Isaiah says was not what he meant. He's like, I was joking. I didn't know that they had a joint press conference, Larry Bird and Isaiah Thomas in LA the week of the Finals or during. In the middle of the Finals.
- [44:24]
Michael Pina
Could you imagine that happening today?
- [44:26]
Howard Beck
No. No.
- [44:28]
Michael Pina
Holy.
- [44:29]
Howard Beck
Like, I thought I knew. I don't know everything. I thought I knew a lot about all of these things. I have no recollection either in real time having been alive for it, or even in my years covering the NBA. I don't think I've ever seen the footage that is in this documentary of Larry Bird and Isaiah Thomas sitting side by side at a table for a press conference shout out to Brian McIntyre, NBA PR legend, who I spotted in that scene coordinating this, and they're talking about the quote. I guess it had gotten like it. It was. It was that dicey in the moment. And it had become that big of a story beyond the NBA because of all the racial overtones, that they actually had a joint press conference. So when you ask about, like, anything changed, magnanimous of them both to be there. Like, I Don't. Unless. Unless it was one of those moments where David Stern said, get your asses there. And. Which is possible, by the way, but that they both sat there and very, I think, just professionally and respectfully said, we're cool, this is fine, and then moved on. That struck me a certain kind of way. My other answer to it would be, before I throw this back to you, but, man, Danny Ainge, holy moly. I don't.
- [45:46]
Michael Pina
He does not care.
- [45:48]
Howard Beck
Danny Ainge will tell you, and he does tell you right in the documentary, I don't care. I don't care what anybody thinks about me. I don't care about feelings. I respect it. Danny Ainge is cutthroat. And you know, you know this because Danny Ange is the one who traded Isaiah Thomas after everything that. The other Isaiah Thomas. Yes, he's the one who traded Pearson Garnett. I had always heard the Danny Ainge is wired the way he is as an executive because of what he lived through during the demise of the Celtics in the 80s. And having seen Red hold on too long, I knew that theme. I knew that storyline. What I did not know until I saw the doc was that Danny Ainge literally said to Red, you should trade Bert and McHale because they're breaking down and reload.
- [46:35]
Michael Pina
They were in his presence as he's saying it.
- [46:38]
Howard Beck
And Red traded Danny instead to the Sacramento Kings. The fact that it's not just Danny the executive who became cutthroat because of that, it's that even in that moment in the 80s, he was that. I would just say pragmatic. Cold hearted, but pragmatic. So, yeah, what changed? Anything changed for you? I mean, you. You knew so much going, so much going in. I can't imagine there's too much that would have surprised you or changed your opinion.
- [47:08]
Michael Pina
Yeah, I went from a neutral observer of Bill Plaschke to him becoming my mortal enemy. No, I'm just kidding.
- [47:14]
Howard Beck
Bill's feisty in this thing. I worked like I was in the LA Daily News, not the LA Times, but Bill never in a lot of press rooms for a lot of time over the course of seven years. I don't remember him being quite that partisan, Bill, but yeah, I thought he was great.
- [47:29]
Michael Pina
I'm just kidding. I think the obvious answer for me is Robert Parrish. This is something we've been communicating about via text. Just the best quotes in the whole thing. And this is someone who is famous for his stoicism and his nickname is Chief by. Famously nicknamed Chief by Cedric Maxwell from One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. And so I have some quotes here that I just think were so funny that I wrote down one of them talking about the team in the 80s, we were a white team. A few chips in the cookie.
- [48:05]
Howard Beck
Phenomenal.
- [48:06]
Michael Pina
Great stuff on the 86 Celtics, which, by the way, that would be the team. If I could go back and cover, I think it would be the 86 Celtics, which are arguably the best team ever. You can, you know, whatever. You can argue about that until. I mean, the 2017 warriors probably have a case and, you know, the 72 win Bulls.
- [48:24]
Howard Beck
Sure.
- [48:25]
Michael Pina
But his quote about the 86 Celtics was, We were fucking shit up, and if we played today, we'd be fucking shit up today.
- [48:33]
Howard Beck
That was a great way to do it.
- [48:34]
Michael Pina
Probably the best quote in the whole doc.
- [48:35]
Howard Beck
I was blown away by Parrish because in my time covering the NBA and I've never met Parrish the man, but what I'd always gleaned from other people was that, like, yeah, stoic, not maybe the most media available or media friendly. Not somebody you heard a lot from in general. This is. This documentary is by far the most I've ever heard Robert Parish talk. Yeah, and. And. And he's. He's phenomenal. Like, please talk more. Like, this stuff was. Was incredible.
- [49:02]
Michael Pina
He also admits, for the first time, I believe, to like, explaining why he didn't help Larry Bird in a fight, a famous fight in the early 80s against the Philadelphia 76ers, when Julius Irving grabs Bird's throat. And I think Moses Malone comes in from behind, and I think Daryl Dawkins was in there, and Robert Parish is just standing there watching his teammate get beat up. And he literally says, yeah, I did that because Larry didn't have my back with a contract dispute.
- [49:30]
Howard Beck
Yeah, that is.
- [49:32]
Michael Pina
That is fascinating. I'm sorry. Like, that is. That's top notch right there.
- [49:36]
Howard Beck
There's a bunch of that stuff. Right. There's a lot of contract disputes and some, you know, bitter moments, guys getting traded because of contracts and everything. So, you know, again, I. This is what I appreciate about it. Amidst all these championships and all the glory and everything else, like, there's some shit that went on and that they had to work through.
- [49:52]
Michael Pina
What, like what interview, what episode, what theme? We've talked about a lot of this stuff already, but just when you think about your experience watching this, what will stick with you, like, forever?
- [50:07]
Howard Beck
Almost everything that we've already talked about. I don't want to diminish any of it because there's a lot of really poignant and important moments. But sports, to me, all right, there's all the X's and O's and everything, but, like, I. I came to this career through the lens of wanting to cover sports as. As. As a study of the human condition, right? My favorite stories that I have written or that I have been around, it's about the people and, you know, their. Their. Their joy and their anguish and their frustrations and everything they've got to work through. Teammates bonding, teammates pulling apart. Obviously, I covered, you know, Shaq and Kobe for seven years of just, you know, winning or feuding and sometimes simultaneously. So I always think of those things. And so there's two things that really, emotionally, I think struck me, and even as I, like, turned off, you know, each episode and walked away for a bit, and it's the flip side of the Celtics coin, but Jerry West's anguish, like, I, obviously, I covered Jerry for a number of years. We care about sports because of all the. Of all these emotions, right? And we care about the people in them, right? And. And watching we were along for their ride, and we don't care if they don't. It's the passion that matters. And passion can take you in any number of directions in this life. I think it's to an extreme. And I feel for Jerry in the moment, like, watching it. Even though I've heard him talk about this before, I don't think I ever felt his pain and bitterness as. As distinctly or as sharply as I did in watching him in this documentary talk about how he has just never gotten over that stuff. And on the one hand, I think it's. It's almost tragic because it's too much. Like it shouldn't matter to you this much, this many decades later and with all the success he's had in his life. And I know it's. That's colored by other things. Jerry's had a. Had a really difficult childhood, and there's a lot of other things baked into it, but it really affected me just seeing that. And obviously, we lost Jerry west last year. Bill Walton's in this documentary. We lost him within the last year. I'm glad that these guys. I'm glad we got to get their thoughts before they were gone, but that really hit me with Jerry. There's another one here. And I hesitate to say it because people are going to be weird about it, but I'm just going to say it anyway.
- [52:36]
Michael Pina
Well, now you got to say it.
- [52:37]
Howard Beck
I know Bill and his dad. Bill Simmons and his dad are. Are Woven throughout this. They're sitting. I don't know if it's their living room. I don't know where they are. Bill has an incredible bond with his dad through the Celtics. And Bill and I are in the same age. I'm a little older, and I lost my dad six years ago, almost six years ago. We did not have this same bond through sports. But I'm the only. I'm middle of three boys in my family. I'm the only one who liked sports. I was the only one who was even remotely competent at sports. But my dad, at least, like, I could talk Niners with him. I grew up like, that was my team growing up. You're, you know, you grew up on the Celtics. I grew up on the Niners. Shout out, Joe Montana, Dwight Clark. My dad was the only one that I could talk to about that stuff at that. At that level. And seeing Bill and his dad at certain points talking about moments specifically, especially in the 80s, because Bill's of a certain age then. And again, we're about the same age. How much that matters to you at that time? And if you share that with, you know, whoever it is, your sibling, in this case, his father, and you see the look on their faces, and it's like, listen, you know me well enough to know, like, I'm pretty. Pretty jaded at times, and I've been doing this a long time. And. And my emotional attachment to any team's sports players is long gone. Although if you turned on, like, you know, the 1982 NFC championship game, I probably feel a certain kind of way. But I don't have that emotional attachment to sports anymore. I cover this as strictly as a journalist, and I do. I admittedly lose touch at times with how much this means to people, how much it means to fans. And it's those moments where I'm at the finals and the championship is won and I'm looking up in the stands and I can see just. Just the. The pure human euphoria, or when I'm standing out in a. In a parking lot where LA Live now is built, watching I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of people for the first Laker parade that I covered in 2000, like, that's. That's what matters. That's, like, why we're here. That's why we do this. And so I Seeing, like I said, like, just. There's a look on Bill and his dad's face at certain moments, especially when they're Talking about the 80s and these moments that they shared as season ticket holders in person. And it's not just about the fact that the Celtics won championships. It's about their, their connection to the team and, and to each other. And I'm sorry, you can hear it in my voice, but like it, like that affected me in a, in a certain kind of way. So yeah, it's, it's the emotional resonance of the team and what it does for people. That's, that's, that's kind of a lot of what I walk away with.
- [55:23]
Michael Pina
Yeah, I think that that was incredibly powerful and something that a lot of people can surely relate to. It's so funny that you said Jerry west though, because that's what I wrote down for this answer as well. And you know, some of his quotes are like. He has one talking about 1969 when his team lost and he had like 42, 12 and 13 in game seven, played all 48 minutes, was the MVP of the finals. The only time that's ever happened. He says, until the day I die. They were not the better team. They were not the better team. That is amazing stuff. That is. You can. You feel for him. I know this is not someone who played for the Celtics. He is one of the first rival figures of the organization and he's a central character in that way. But it's like, that's his pain speaks to like the power of what he was up against and the greatness of the Celtics in a sense. And so that quote, and he has a couple others like that where he says, you know, one of them is about in 1963, I think Frank Selby misses a jumper that would have won the Lakers the championship. And he misses it and he says, really? All my life this has haunted me. Why didn't that go in? It's a jump shot. Yeah, that's amazing stuff. And it's just like I said this already, but that is, that's why the, the, the tremble of his voice is like why we do this and why we care and why so many people are invested emotionally and why there's so much passion and engagement and love and hatred. And so yeah, that's, that will always probably stick with me hearing him talk about those games. Because like, if the people participating in the games don't feel that way, then why should anyone watching? Yeah, so that's really like the best, that the, the most powerful part for me for sure.
- [57:34]
Howard Beck
Yeah. Passion drives sports. It drives the entire thing. And without fans, there's, there's no point to it all. Like this is a multi billion dollar industry now, and we can lose sight of the human element because it is so much about the business and the promotion and the corporate sponsorships and guys having, like, their own entire teams of PR people and managers and all this stuff. And it all starts to detract from the sport at times. And you and I see the back, you know, the background stuff, we see all the other stuff, but it's.
- [58:06]
Michael Pina
It's truth, it's honesty, and that's what we lack today. We could go another hour on that subject. Well, that's really what we lack today. And that's why I thought that was.
- [58:16]
Howard Beck
So special when you were asking about, like, what team or what era I'd want to cover. A lot of where my brain immediately goes is like, oh, my God, the access they had. And Jackie McMullen's talking about seeing Bird, like, you know, slamming a door or whatever as he's limping out of the gym, you know, toward the end or whatever. And the stuff we just don't see anymore, the access that we just don't have anymore now starts to get to be, you know, you know, reporter grievance hour. But it. But it. You can't tell a great story without being able to really get to know these guys. And it is absolutely true, as you and I both know, that our predecessors in this industry got to know Bird, McHale, Parrish, West, Goodrich, worthy, Magic, Kareem, whatever. Got to know all them a lot better and were able to tell their stories better and convey to the fans who care about this stuff in a much more meaningful way. So I, I miss that. But, yeah, I mean, I listen, I. Every day, you know, of covering this league, that's what I'm looking for, right? Like, it's Anthony Edwards just being completely raw and like, all right, he's going to get fined like 50 times for saying improper stuff, but at least you're seeing the real him. And. And I appreciate that. And. But also, yeah, like, you know what else was really cool? Another human element piece of this. I didn't know the story about Donnie Wahlberg calling Jalen Brown when Jalen Brown gets drafted. Jalen Brown had been booed at a season ticket holder event on the night of the draft. And Donnie Wahlberg, like, reaches out and says, hey, man, I just want to let you know, like, you know, we're thrilled to have you here, whatever. And then when they win the championship, hope I'm not giving too much away in the doc, but they win the championship, and there's a moment that gets filmed of Donnie.
- [59:53]
Michael Pina
This is the most important thing in Celtics history, so give it away if you must.
- [59:59]
Howard Beck
I didn't realize how big of a role Donnie Wahlberg actually played in any of this. It's the most I've ever heard him talk to. But Donnie and Jalen Brown having a moment when they won the title and Brown wins the MVP last June. And so that was really cool, too, because again, it's just. It's fan to player. He's not the average fan, but just. It's the connection. It's the connection and how much this matters to everybody. That's what drives this whole thing, and that's what keeps us coming back.
- [60:28]
Michael Pina
Celtic City, March 3rd on Max, let's go out on a quote from Joe Missoula, Boston Celtics head coach, who pretty much summed up the my top line first impressions when I first watched this whole thing. Everybody always remembers when things go well, but this shows the difficult parts. I think that's important to know that you have to take the good with the bad. You have to take the journey. Howard, this was a wonderful journey, you and I.
- [60:56]
Howard Beck
Phenomenal journey. Thank you. Good to be on it with you.
- [60:58]
Michael Pina
Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone watching and listening at home. We'll catch you next time.
- [61:04]
Big Woz
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to a very special edition of the Ringer NBA show. I'm your host for this one, Big Woz, AKA Wasni Lambre. And I have a very, very special guest on with us. She's Lauren Stoll. She's the director of this new Celtics doc on hbo, executive produced by the big guy, Bill Simmons, as well as Connor Shell. Welcome to the show, Lauren.
- [61:33]
Lauren Stowell
Thank you, Oz. Thanks for having me. I'm excited about this.
- [61:36]
Big Woz
I want to get right into it because I want to know how you got attached to this project. Like, how did you get interested in doing this? I know, like, you know, you have a sort of familiarity with Boston and the sports and all of that stuff via your background. But how did you get, you know, involved with this project specifically?
- [62:00]
Lauren Stowell
Yeah, so I'm a Connecticut native. I grew up in Connecticut. I went to UConn. You know, I was big UConn hoops. So in the 90s and the 2000s, that was kind of, you know, my lifeblood has always been that I was at ESPN. I was there for 16 great years, you know, working primarily in storytelling, features and documentaries there. And the opportunity came about, as Bill will tell you, it's really been five years in the making for him and Connor, you know, 2020. They started discussing this idea of why hasn't there been a definitive Boston Celtics documentary? Yankees have their, you know, definitive documentary. The Lakers, you know, everyone. Any of these Tiffany franchises have that definitive body of work. The Celtics, it's been told in pieces and parts, but never one full work. So that's kind of how I got pulled into it. A few years after they had been. Connor and Bill had been, you know, in development with it, talking with hbo, and then I got my hands on a preliminary treatment and was. I was blown away. I mean, I thought I knew the story of the Celtics. I didn't realize how profoundly connected they are to the fabric of, you know, American culture. And just all of the larger than life characters that, you know, I was like, this is reading like a Hollywood script. You know, this is unbelievable. What an opportunity.
- [63:41]
Big Woz
Yeah. And I do gotta say, just up front, right? You know, I hear Bill and Emma doing a Celtics doc. Bill, you know, he's been doing this for so long, I know it's gonna be good. Then, you know, I get the email about talking to the director, and I'm like, hold up.
- [63:58]
Lauren Stowell
This.
- [63:58]
Big Woz
A black lady doing this. And, you know, I think that's important because obviously, you know, you're, you know, whatever they click for you on the census does not predict what you're gonna bring to the table. But, like, you know, seeing that, I was like, man, these guys have my attention. Because just the fact that you're in the room and you're going to have, you know, your fingerprints all over this and you're gonna be bringing your own perspective, perspectives to this. I was like, man, these guys have my attention with this.
- [64:29]
Lauren Stowell
Oh, thank you. I mean, you know, wise, you kind of. You touched on it. Like, I think what was interesting again, why I said I was kind of, like, surprised when I started to really dig into the layers of what this story, like, the potential and the possibilities with it. What I quickly learned, and I think our team was kind of compelled by was you can tell the story of America through the Boston Celtics. You can tell the story of the NBA through the Boston Celtics. And I think what I found really fascinating is you can tell the story of black empowerment in America through the Boston Celtics. You could take it from Bill Russell, Chuck Cooper being the first black player drafted in the NBA by the Boston Celtics, from Bill all the way to Kevin Garnett to Jaylen Brown today. You know, and I think, like, that was really exciting for me because I think that there is. And we discovered there is a perception of what the Celtics are What they stand for, you know, what makes up the fabric of what that organization is. And I think, you know, these are black superstars who, you know, so many of them are ingrained in the fabric of what the Celtics are. And you can tell the story of that empowerment and that progress from 1950 to current. And that's really what we had the opportunity to do with nine hours and nine parts.
- [65:50]
Big Woz
I have to. I want to start a little bit with red Arabic, because I think he is obviously a legendary figure in the NBA, but I think his story is such a fascinating one because his project was so radical. I know it's easy to kind of dismiss that now, but, like, here's this Jewish guy from Brooklyn, okay? I think folks, folks gotta kinda understand in 2024, we think of Jewish Americans, especially in the terms of the racial. Whatever we wanna call it, as white people. In 1950, they were not, okay? That's just not how American racial society worked, right? And so here's this Jewish guy from Brooklyn, and he gets to Boston, which obviously has this very long and fraught racial history. And he's like, look, man, I'm gonna build the blackest team in the league and I'm going to win. It's not just like I'm doing, because folks gotta understand great things can happen for not the most altruistic reasons, right? His whole thing was like, I'm going to get the best players, and many times those players are going to be black, and so be it. I just think that's just a fascinating person to trailblaze this in this city. Having his background.
- [67:20]
Lauren Stowell
Oh, absolutely. Was. I think, you know, what you're touching on again, that early foundation of Red Auerbach coming to Boston. You know, we had the privilege of meeting and interviewing, spending time with his two daughters, Nancy and Randy Auerbach. And, you know, I thought it was important to kind of understand in the same way that we also spoke with Karen Russell, we spent time with her, understanding that Red and Russell are the foundation, like, it all starts with them, right? And I understand Bob Cousy, and I don't want to take anything away from him as well, but they're the founding fathers. And I found it so fascinating, the relationship that they have and that they developed. You know, the fact that, like you said, there was no Red. Everything that we understood about him in our research, speaking with his, you know, with. With Nancy and Randy, the way that. That Red raised them was about the individual, about the character of the person. And that, you know, it sounds idealistic. It Sounds in some ways a little cheesy, but it's not like it was real. And I. I felt that just in the time that I spent with Nancy and Randy, just how much, you know, these players are part of their family in a way. We had the opportunity was sent to get Karen Russell and Randy Auerbach. They're great friends. We shot a scene with them. Karen came to Randy's house. They sat across from one another at the kitchen table, just talking about how much respect their fathers had for each other, the relationship that they had. And it was really beautiful to see that that carried on today, you know, and they helped each other after their. Their fathers passed away. Like, Karen talks about Randy helping her go through that grieving process. So, you know, I think you can't tell the story of the Celtics without Red. You just. I mean, it was something we knew from the very beginning. We wanted to try to understand what was his. His moral character, what were the things that he instilled in his players, the messages that you read about and hear about. How true do those ring for the men that actually were coached by him. And with a resounding overwhelmingly that came through in the interviews that we conducted and in the stories that were shared with us.
- [69:47]
Big Woz
Yeah. So, obviously, Red is the architect. And then there's Russell, who, you know, for my money, even today, I still think he's probably one of the five greatest basketball players who's ever lived. Like, he's on the level of Jordan. He's on the level of Kareem and Magic and Lebron. Like, the resume kind of speaks for himself. And he is a kind of singular figure in NBA history in terms of, like, what this guy is doing on the court. The people who he's associating himself with off the court, which are civil rights leaders and community leaders, et cetera, et cetera. And putting himself in, like, man, this shit was dangerous to do. Look, I got respect for people who do activist work now, but it's just not the same stakes in terms of losing your livelihood or even losing your life to do this. I just think he's just such a singular figure in the story of the league and the story of the country for having married those two things in this specific city at this time. I just think that's, you know, it's just kind of a lot to try to explain that truth with some level of nuance and care.
- [71:05]
Lauren Stowell
Yeah. And another thing that, you know, beyond his activism, that I do think, like, even in our research, we were able to, you know, get Our hands on a lot of, of information, reading, research, things that, about the work that he did in the communities in and around Boston. You know, even after Medgar Evers murder, he was in, you know, hosting camps in Mississippi. And, and these are things that are documented. What we found wasn't as widely known was his impact in the black neighborhoods in Boston, specifically Roxbury and Dorchester. I mean, we went back to Slade's Bar and Grill, which was a black owned, still is to this day, a black owned establishment in Roxbury. And this is a restaurant that Bill owned at a time in the 1960s. And we took Satch Sanders back to Slade's Bar and Grill and Satch was talking about the significance of Bill owning a black rest black owned restaurant in Roxbury, what that meant to the community, to have him there, like interacting, engaging. He was hosting a jazz radio show every Sunday. That again, no one talks about this. You know, there's always this kind of like negative experience and kind of relationship. And I understand that is actually absolutely part of his experience in Boston was fraught with racism and barriers that he had to fight through and bust through. But there was also a lot of black joy and excellence in what. So I just feel like that was fascinating to us as well, that that part of Bill's relationship with the city of Boston is often not talked about. And that was really, that was cool for us.
- [73:03]
Big Woz
We gotta talk, we gotta talk about the city itself here too, because obviously the fabric of the city, the sort of class politics, the power politics that gets so intertwined in a city like Boston, you know, just up front, like I have some Boston roots in the sense that I have family from there. You know, I'm a Haitian American myself. There's a pretty huge Haitian community in Boston. One of my closest friends in life has been living in Boston since after college, right. So I've been going there pretty much since 2007 or 8, 2008, on and off all the time, to visit, to hang out, all of that stuff. And you know, it's, it's obviously different than the 1960s and 70s, but you know, I'm talking to a buddy out there and he's from Southie, he's from the projects, and he's like, yo, the reality is when people are talking about racist Boston, they're talking about Southie, they're talking about my neighborhood, they're talking about a lot of the people that I grew up with when it comes to the busing riots and all of that kind of stuff, I just Want to know how you sort of perceived how the many sides of Boston come together to embrace this team that's delivering so much joy?
- [74:26]
Lauren Stowell
Yeah. I think from the outset, one of the key questions that we had, and it was a question on almost every interview list that we conducted, why does Boston have the perception of being a racist city? It's just. It's the elephant in the room. Like every interview that we did, it's like, you. You're kind of, why skirt around it? Let's just ask the question and see what people say. And what we did discover is that the 1970s and the images from busing and what that did to the city, seeing black kids on buses and white parents throwing rocks at the windows, the violence that was ensuing and erupting everywhere in the city, has left a stain that generations later, it still stands. There is still. We were asking that question, and we had multiple people who were trying to describe the image of a picture that they could remember of a white teenager with the American flag striking a black man in City Hall Plaza in Boston. That one image, which I'm sure you know, you're shaking your head. Dr. Ted Landsmark. Who's the man in the image? The Pulitzer Prize winning photographer, Stanley Forman. We interviewed both of these individuals. We actually went through the photographs and talked to them about those experiences, you know, and how that has shaped the perception of this city. I think that was, as much as I don't want it to be reductive, that busing is the only reason. There are obviously other comments. LeBron James calling, you know, Boston racist as you know, I don't know if this is censored, but, you know, Marcus Smart talked about after the game, you know, where a woman calls him the N word as she's crossing the road wearing his. Her son's wearing his jersey. He talked about that in the Players Tribune. Those stories do carry. And even when you ask Jayson Tatum and I sat down with him and asked him that same question, why is there this perception? And he said, the only thing that I knew about Boston before I came here was the Celtics, Bill Russell and racism. Like those were the only kind of. Just on a blanket kind of. This is what is spoken about in circles. This is what is talked about. The experiences where black people don't feel welcome in the city. So I think really was we had to confront that question, allow the interviewees, the people that we spoke to, the characters of this film, to actually speak to it and not kind of speak around it, also not claim to be The Authority. I mean, this obviously was a documentary that is about the Boston Celtics, but you can't. You can't tell it without addressing, you know, what are the truths? Where is. Where does perception meet reality? Is it fair? Is it unfair? Is it earned? Is it not earned? Those are the questions we grapple with throughout the film that you'll see.
- [77:35]
Big Woz
Yeah. And, you know, I don't want to dwell on this, but I think it's important to say, because I'm a New York City native, and New York obviously has this reputation of this bastion of progressivism and artistry and blah, blah, blah, and the Village and CBGB and all that. And all of these things are true. All of these things actually happen. But so did Central Park 5. So did the subway vigilante. Right. If you go to neighborhoods in 1970 something and you tried to busk kids into Bensonhurst or Howard Beach, I promise you, it would have looked exactly like Boston. And I don't say that to put a cape on for Boston. It's just the reality of where the country's been and where it's going. And I'm somebody who thinks that progress has been made on the racial front. In many ways, I think it's hard for a lot of black people to admit sometimes that things aren't as bad as 1965. I think things are. Things are better in terms of racial harmony and relations. And I think if you go to a city like Boston today, I think you will see a lot of that. To be honest, not to get all Kumbaya up in here.
- [78:45]
Lauren Stowell
No, it's true. And I mean, even, you know, in 1976 when the Celtics won, you know, their championship, and they were celebrating on City Hall Plaza, and you see everyone in the city coming out black, white, everybody was together, rallying and unified by this team. The same thing happened in 1981 after Bird got his first title. Like, it unified, you know, again, Kumbaya. It feels like it's a little corny to say, but we have to recognize that it did. It united people. I mean, that's the reality of it. Ted Landsmark had been attacked. Two months later, they played in the 1976 finals. He was watching at home on TV with the bandages on his face, and it gave him a source of healing. It was uplift for him because as a Celtics fan, it was about unifying the city. And he was glad that the city had that moment after the images that we all saw of violence, protests, segregation, just division in the city. So, yeah, there are some examples that we were able to kind of show that healing, that unity that the Celtics were able to bring to the city.
- [79:59]
Big Woz
Yeah, I just had to say that because there's gonna be folks that saying that we got crystals on and we burning sage while we talk about racial harmony. But I think it's important to point stuff out when things get better. You mentioned Larry Bird, who for me is. He's just a fascinating figure. Just a couple of things on that I know for a fact he is a reclusive dude. Very, very hard to get. The fact that you guys got him to be involved in this, I think it's a bigger deal than people are going to realize. Some people are gonna say, well, it's a Celtics documentary. Of course he participated. This dude doesn't talk to people. He doesn't do media. So I think it's really cool one, that you guys got him. But two, I think like Russell, I think his greatness sometimes gets lost to the time. To my mind, him and magic ushered in the modern NBA. Like the NBA that we know today was birthed under those guys greatness and the stuff that they put on the court. What was it like getting to get together with Larry and him, like sort of bridging that gap, you know, from the 70s and 60s?
- [81:07]
Lauren Stowell
Oh, yeah, it was huge. Like you said, I mean, in the beginning, as we were setting out on this journey, like, we weren't sure we were. We didn't know how we were gonna get Larry. We didn't know what it was gonna look like. Would he even consider it? I have to give credit. Jackie McMullen is a consulting producer on this project.
- [81:26]
Big Woz
Jackie Mack is a homie.
- [81:28]
Howard Beck
She's the best.
- [81:28]
Lauren Stowell
She's amazing. Yes, she's the best. She has a great relationship with Larry, as you know. And yeah, I mean, she is the reason we got Larry in the chair. And she conducted that interview with him. Obviously I was there and it was amazing. I mean, he was open. He was open with us. He was excited about it. He was in good spirits that day, which was great. Like we hadn't spoken to him.
- [81:56]
Big Woz
He's a mercurial dude.
- [81:58]
Lauren Stowell
Yeah, yeah. And you know what? I thought that I walk away from that interview and now it's mainly in episode six when we watched the series. He was really open about, you know, the trials and kind of what he went through physically with his back, you know, being in traction, just the physical breakdown. And I think Kevin McHale also was phenomenal. Robert Parish, phenomenal. Opening up about, talking about watching Larry both at his peak and in his lowest moments, you know, and the moments that they saw him, you know, in horrific pain and fighting through that. And it's really incredible because I have a new respect for Larry. After spending time, you know, talking with Bill Walton, talking with Parrish, talking, you know, we. We were able to really get insight into what it was that he really endured throughout his incredible career. It was. We all see the highlights. We all know his greatness. But greatness, it lies in how you deal with that, you know, adversity that was placed on him. A lot of it was out of his control. His body was failing. And I thought that was some of the most fascinating, you know, insights that we were able to get from Larry, that Jackie, you know, I credit Jackie with just an incredible job, you know.
- [83:22]
Big Woz
And obviously you can't talk about Larry without talking about Magic and just the interest and excitement they brought to the game. Again, folks gotta understand, it's like this tape delay stuff. It was real. A lot of NBA playoff games, finals games were not broadcast live. Like, the idea that the NBA. If you told somebody and say 1978 that there would still be an NBA in the year 2024, many people would have laughed you out of the room. Like, I think people don't have an appreciation for the precarity of the league, the fragility of its existence, that this thing didn't have to work. Like, there were plenty of ways that this could have went so freaking sour. And by the grace of God, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson showed up and cultivated this rivalry. And I know we talked about Boston as a city itself, but I love the kind of projection and the perception of LA and Boston when they're juxtaposed against each other. And you have Showtime and this idea of glitz and glam and, you know, the blue collar Boston Celtics guys, right, Led by the hick from French Lick. I think that story is like, I know people like, oh, we tell it all the time. Well, it's a sensual story. Like, you can't tell the story of the franchise, of the league without talking about that rivalry.
- [84:53]
Lauren Stowell
No. And we do go into depth, obviously, with that rivalry in episode four and five, and particularly in episode four, thinking and presenting, you know, the league, like you said, the fragility of the league at that time in the early 70s was just. It was, you know, it was essential that they have stars like Magic and Birds. So it was, like you said, it's a critical part of the development, the evolution of the NBA, you know, and I misspoke. I said early 70s. I mean, the late 70s, early 80s, was a very fragile time. And we document that and we also talk about, you know, the. Again, it dovetails right into the perception, right, of the Celtics as a, quote, white team. You know, in the 80s. I mean, it was, like you said.
- [85:44]
Big Woz
A lot of black players.
- [85:48]
Lauren Stowell
You have a black head coach, right? Casey Jones, Dennis Johnson, Cedric Maxwell, like, you got Robert Parish. But it was. The Celtics were known as, you know, the white team. And we had some fun, I would say, with that, like, because there were black Celtic fans that a lot of people don't know about. And we just explore just, again, how does that decade and that era shape, again, their perception not only of the Celtics, but of the city of Boston and how, you know, Larry Bird was, you know, deemed the great white hope, and that was something he never wanted, you know, and just exploring how he handled that and what that really meant. And it's fascinating. It's really. It was a lot of fun, guys.
- [86:35]
Big Woz
I love Larry Bird because he's real enough to be like, I found it offensive when they would put a white guy on me, you know, like, is. And, you know, obviously, this guy, he's. He doesn't come from money, right? Like, this guy is from a small town, you know, grew up hooping in his backyard. This guy doesn't come from means. And there's something about him, man. It's like a. Like a. Almost like a pool hall hustler vibe to him that he comes off as unassuming, but he's like. Wants to slit people's throats. It's like, I just think he's just a incredible figure. And, you know, and in an honest moment, I bet you every black basketball fan in the 80s would admit that Larry Bird was incredible. Like, you know, I know Isaiah had the thing where they only giving it to him because he's a white boy, and Isaiah likes to talk slick, but even in his honest moments, he knows that Larry Bird was incredible.
- [87:32]
Lauren Stowell
Yeah, no, absolutely. And we do. We. We get into that as well in the film, and I just think, yeah, it's. It's just such a fascinating study. Like you said, it's. It's more than just as, you know, Bird as a figure. It's just. I think the impact and where those ripples can be felt, I think are in places that you wouldn't expect them. You know, I'm not going to give too much away, but it's. I. I've. Yeah, we. We were very fortunate that, you know, to be able to tell the story with, you know, an icon like Larry Bird and everything that he represented to so many people. It's. I mean, it was. It was amazing, really.
- [88:13]
Big Woz
So, again, we're talking about, you know, foundational NBA figures when it comes to Larry Bird, excuse me, Red Auerbach, Bill Russell, Cousy Havlic. Like, these guys are foundational to the league actually being able to sustain itself and move into, you know, now where, let's face it, the money is just ridiculous. I was talking to a buddy about All Star Weekend, and, you know, his company bought seats for clients. There were $5,000 a pop. Like, who could even imagine something like that? But I'm getting off course. But I said all of that to say, like, these guys are legendary figures. And I think KG and Port Paul Pierce and, you know, Tatum and Brown and all these guys are legendary figures in their own. But, like, you know, it could be easy to give them short shrifting compared to the people that we mentioned before. How did you guys ensure that these guys got their due for what they've done? You know, after the dark days of the 90s where, oh, Lord have mercy, rest in peace, Reggie Lewis, like, it was dark times for the Celtics, how did you make sure that the. The newer generation didn't get short shrift here?
- [89:24]
Lauren Stowell
Yeah, they definitely didn't get shortchanged in this. This documentary at all. You know, what was unique that we knew going into this was that, you know, the decade of the 80s and 90s in the NBA has been documented. What really had never been told was the story of the 08 championship team. Like, the big three, the formation of the big three. Like, it's been told in bits and pieces, but never fully. Like, how did it come together? Why did it work so well? What was Ubuntu?
- [89:58]
Big Woz
What.
- [89:59]
Lauren Stowell
How did Doc Rivers play into it? What did KG bring not only to the team, but to the city? What did he represent? There was so much that we explored, not to mention Paul Pierce's stabbing, coming back from near death and playing every game of the season only a couple months after. He had been inches of his, you know, within inches of his life, that story had never been told. And so it was super. I mean, was. It was so important that Pierce got his due, that Garnett got to speak his truth, that Ray Allen got to speak his truth on how everything went down.
- [90:37]
Michael Pina
Oh, boy.
- [90:39]
Lauren Stowell
And he did.
- [90:39]
Big Woz
Y'all, y'all better be ready for some spice, y'all.
- [90:42]
Lauren Stowell
Yep, there's some spice.
- [90:44]
Big Woz
Yeah, y'all better be ready for that.
- [90:46]
Lauren Stowell
He got to speak his truth. And. And of course, like, this new era, I mean, we were. We didn't know they were gonna win or 18. Like, going into this. I mean, you can hope, but no, I mean. And so it was just so ripe for us to be able to. Even Joe Missoula, like, sitting down and really just getting to the root of, like, what this means to him, what this job means to him, what the Celtics meant to him through his life. He grew up going to Red Auerbach's camp as a kid. I didn't know all that. I knew he was, like, connected to the team. But I think we were able to in episode eight and nine, and it's two solid hours of giving these guys their due and really just. And again, stories that just haven't really been fully told. And I think we were hopefully able. I wish we had more real estate to do it, but.
- [91:37]
Big Woz
So kg, I want to definitely stay on KG a little bit because, like, Larry Bird has a reputation for being a bit of an icy dude. I think I've told this story before on the pod. I can't remember, but it was like Martin Luther King weekend. I'll never forget. It was a Monday, and a friend of ours invited us to the Malibu Soho House, which is like, you know. You know, you just. You just can't get in. But this guy's a member. He was like, yo, you guys can come spend the afternoon. We walk in and I make a left, and KG's just sitting there, just chilling, and he's talking to some lady. And he gives me the meanest ice grill that you have ever seen in your life, right? And I was just like, yo, this is fucking crazy. KG is ice grilling me right now for no reason. And then, you know, we gave him the head nod and he said, yeah, yeah, what up? And then that was it. But that's. But that's KG though, right? Like, he's an intense. He's an intense guy. And, you know, and I think if the sort of Boston Celtics self mythology or brand is to believe KG as a person, as a Hooper, pretty much embodies that shit through and through in terms of the insane dedication, the love of the game, the professionalism, like, this guy would be willing to die to win. Like, I'm not kidding. Like, willing to die to win. Just talk about putting him, like, getting his side of his Celtics story, man, was.
- [93:19]
Lauren Stowell
He was our very last interview. He was the last in the line. He was number 98. Yeah, we were trying for a Long time. And just everything you said, we were like, I don't know. I. You know, it was kind of like, is he on the fence? Are we gonna get him? We finally got the opportunity, went to his studio. Went to his studio. I was. I would say I was probably the most nervous for that interview. I mean, it was that. And I was like, I don't know about Danny Ainge. Maybe he's gonna be. And Danny was amazing. KG is the most intense human being. Intense, passionate, authentic. I mean, he walked in the room, he was larger than life. He was so ready. He was so prepared to talk about this time in his life. All the emotions that came up for him, for him during the interview. I mean, there were times was that he had his head down. He was, like, closing his eyes. He was like, going, like, touching the figments of, like, the walls around him as he was remembering what this meant to him, this time. This journey with these guys that he played with, that he loved. And just how he embraced everything around him. It was palpable. Like, his intensity is so real. And we were, like, at a point where we're like, okay, we only have, like, an hour. And he was like, oh, no, no, no, we're gonna keep going. And we went almost like three hours with Caitlin. I mean, he was telling every story. He was getting touched with every emotion. He's incredible. And I mean, just every person we interviewed, whether it was Big Baby Davis, Ray, like, you know, Pierce, everybody.
- [95:00]
Big Woz
Free my boy. Big baby, man. Free my boy. They just. They just. They just gave. He's doing a bid right now.
- [95:06]
Lauren Stowell
Free my boy. I know.
- [95:07]
Big Woz
Free Glen Davis.
- [95:09]
Lauren Stowell
Glen Davis, Yeah. You will see Glen Davis in episode eight. But. But we were fortunate. He was a great interview. There was just so much heart and soul with that team. The chemistry in a lot of ways. Like the 86 championship team, when they added Dole Walton. It's like Jackie McMullen kind of likened it to, like, you know, you put, like, a vase of flowers on the table, and it just brightens up the whole house, you know, Everything feels different. That was Walton. KG was like that. I mean, it was. And nothing. I mean, Ray was incredible, too, but it was as if we're talking about character and, like, what is the catalyst to kind of change something dynamically? It was kg.
- [95:48]
Big Woz
Yeah.
- [95:49]
Lauren Stowell
Every minute, whether it was pr. I mean, Doc was telling stories just about his intensity and practice. He'd be on the sidelines, pacing, going through the motions of everybody like it. I mean, it's amazing. He's. I mean, What, What a gift it was to sit down with him. He was incredible. And. And I'm really excited for people to see him speak his truth, for him to tell these stories. You're going to laugh, you're gonna cry. He. He was great. He was great. He's the heartbeat. He really was.
- [96:18]
Big Woz
So, Lauren, I want to thank you for your time today, but before we get you out of here and we're gonna pretend that all the people who listen to Ringer NBA aren't already locked into this and gonna watch it anyway. Like, we're gonna pretend like that's not the case. But why should. Aside from everything we just mentioned, why should people watch your movie.
- [96:41]
Lauren Stowell
Was. I think I would say everything you think you know about the Celtics, you might not actually know. I think there is truth in this film that I hope that we have shared. There is beauty, there is light, there is hope, there is tragedy. I mean, it is. You don't have to be a Celtics fan to watch this. That's the. I mean, it. It really is. It's a human story about the heart and the character of, you know, men that for generations, you know, for. For decades have created something that now we're seeing in the embodiment of what, you know, Jaylen and Jason and, and Missoula and these guys have done, bringing this 18 championship. It could all be tied back. And so, yeah, if you think, you know, please watch. And I would love to see what people think after seeing and hearing the. The real story.
- [97:44]
Big Woz
Yeah, I mean, just to end it, you know, I live in Los Angeles now. I moved here like seven years. I kind of had an idea about who the Lakers are, what they mean to the community. But being here and actually sort of understanding that like these rich ass enclaves of Brentwood and, you know, Bel Air and Beverly Hills and all of that don't really have a lot in common with something like East LA or South Central, but for the Lakers. And like, that's kind of the magic of sports. Like the, the ability to tie all of these disparate groups together into this unifying thing. And obviously that's what the Celtics mean to Boston. And I'm so happy you guys are telling the story. Like I said on top of this, like billing them. They know what the hell they're doing. Obviously, if you've watched the previous stuff that they've produced, it's all excellent. And the way that you've poured yourself into this, I'm like really looking forward to watching this entire thing. Really excited. Thank you for being on with us today.
- [98:50]
Lauren Stowell
Thank you so much. Was I appreciate it.