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The Ringer NBA Show
Celtics Finally Show Up and the Wolves Make Things Look So Very Hard. Plus, Midway Playoff MVP Ballots. | Group Chat
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- [00:00]
Justin Varier
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Basketball fans know that a great assist can change the game, and there's no greater assist than one from State Farm. State Farm is here to help you navigate the right coverage for your home car and more. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm Bloomington, IL coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. You're listening to the Ringer MBA show presented by FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back, relax and track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. If you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varier and joining me, Rob Mahoney. Big wads. I would say a pretty normal night of NBA basketball. It almost seems like the playoffs. Rob went to therapy, worked on itself and we just got some pretty good but not chaotic NBA playoffs.
- [01:43]
Rob Mahoney
I'd forgotten what it feels like honestly, to have a normal NBA night. I'm not mad about it, but ultimately, yeah, like we're used to a certain level of just complete upheaval on a night like this. Complete mayhem. And this was good. Normal playoff hoops Woz Plenty to pick apart. But look, I know we're going to get into all that. I just need one ruling from was up top. We saw Jayson Tatum walking into the game today in Tim's and I need a ruling from you on who is allowed to wear Tim's and under what circumstances.
- [02:12]
Woz
I mean everybody is theoretically allowed to wear Tim's.
- [02:16]
Rob Mahoney
You already said theoretically and this is the problem.
- [02:18]
Woz
Yeah, theoretically. It's just, you know, the, the that boot is so synonymous with New York City and hip hop culture. I guess he was trying to like make a statement and he's got the overalls on and he looks like Tretch from Naughty by nature. I know I'm aging myself with that reference, but I was fine with it. It's like it's Tatum trying to be interesting it's better than what we usually get from this guy in terms of theater. And so I'm fine with it. It wasn't him sort of being disrespectful. Like when the Knicks would lose back in the day, they put the crying Jordan face on a Timberland or he's not like mocking my culture.
- [03:00]
Rob Mahoney
Got you.
- [03:01]
Woz
So I'm fine with it. He was trying to make a statement, make it fun, make it engaging.
- [03:06]
Justin Varier
It's more a win in Rome sort of thing is what you're doing here.
- [03:09]
Woz
Yeah, absolutely.
- [03:10]
Rob Mahoney
I like that.
- [03:11]
Justin Varier
Rob, did you have Tims growing up?
- [03:13]
Rob Mahoney
I did not know.
- [03:15]
Justin Varier
I definitely did. I had multiple pairs. In fact, I was drawn in on the little tree, probably because they were fake, in order to just emphasize that these are indeed Tims. Was. Did you ever do that? Or is that just.
- [03:28]
Woz
No, I. No, I never did that. No, I never. I never drew on my Timberlands. But yeah, it was one of those things. Like, pretty much before every single school year you would get a new pair of boots because, you know, it snows a lot, obviously in the northeast, so you always need a new pair of boots. But the. The funny thing about it, like, they're not the best snow boots.
- [03:48]
Rob Mahoney
Hence why you need new ones every year. That's not a good sign.
- [03:51]
Woz
Just. Literally just a fashion statement is not very functional. But, you know, I'm happy Tatum is participating with the theater of NBA playoff basketball.
- [04:02]
Justin Varier
Yeah. All right, well, we could step into the Burlington Coat Factory a little bit later. First and foremost, I think we need to talk about the game that we just watched. Wolves dig out a 21 series lead against the Warriors. And what could possibly be the dumbest game I think I've ever seen. The Wolves, Rob, just have a certain way of making things so hard on them in.
- [04:24]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [04:24]
Justin Varier
Our guy Law Murray from the Athletic dubbed it CTE Situational Hoops, which I really like because they didn't have Steph. They didn't even make a three pointer to the warriors in the first half. And yet the. Everything is just so hard for the Wolves.
- [04:39]
Rob Mahoney
I just don't think they have handled the activity of Golden State's defense at all. Like the fronts, the puzzles that the warriors are presenting them. Everyone starting with Anthony Edwards has not done a great job of like cracking that code. Now, there came a point in this game where ant just decided, fuck it, I'm going to overwhelm it. I'm going to dunk on top of the code. And that worked pretty well. But as far as like picking apart this Golden State team, I just don't think the Wolves did a good job of it all night long. And that is worrisome after the last series where we saw them do that very methodically against the Lakers. This was, you know, the Wolves flying a little close to the sun, as they are, ought to do. They make some absolutely heinous mistakes and just are completely spaced out in a way that will catch them at some point. I don't know if it's going to be in this series or not, because they have enough strength and juice and athleticism and collective defense to probably overcome a series like this, especially if Steph is not back at all or back too late in the series. But it doesn't make you feel great about their collective problem solving.
- [05:39]
Woz
The Warriors, I think, has demonstrated that they're one of the best defenses in.
- [05:43]
Rob Mahoney
The league, without a doubt.
- [05:45]
Woz
And in order to beat them, you need to execute at a high level. You know, like, this isn't just screw around, make a couple of passes. Julius Randle gets to attack Austin Reaves and have fun. Like, this is a completely different animal. And it just seemed like they weren't up to the task or they just weren't interesting, interested, excuse me, in trying as hard as they can, you know. All of that being said, I thought Anthony Edwards in the second half was just utterly, just dominant. He's shown that he, like, when he is dialed in, he is a singular type of talent and can dominate. Just the Wolves, they. They've had this tendency all year to sort of play up or play down to their competition. And, you know, you see Steph Curry on the sidelines looking sad and despondent. It probably doesn't get you too excited to play in the game, playoffs and all.
- [06:39]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I just feel like in the last series against the Lakers, when we were talking about Ian, a lot of it was being congratulatory about his playmaking, the ability to pass out of double teams, define everybody else and get everything going. He was orchestrating in a way that he pretty much hadn't up until this point in the playoffs. This series a little bit different. I think you got to give the warriors credit for making it harder on him, but the fact that his assist numbers are so low, I think is a telling sign. 2, 5, 4 over the first three games, and in fact, a lot of the times where things are ungunked, Rob, and it seems to be Julius Randall kind of digging it out of the mud. And he had a lot of good plays at the end there. Yes, it was Meteoric. The dunk over loony. Just some physical marvel plays that he typically does. But it really feels like Randall is the guy that is almost leveling them up with his brain and not necessarily with overpowering guys with his strength.
- [07:29]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I thought their easiest baskets basically in the entire game were Randall setting up ant on cuts and like playing counterintuitively to the one on one style that really bogged them down and really did gunk them up in that way. Like they. The ball just kind of sticks in all the wrong places. And it's the reason why Minnesota goes on these absolutely putrid scoring droughts. Like they just cannot get things going for extended periods of time. I do think Randall helped them navigate some stuff. I think he also made some really bad turnovers and made some really bad mistakes. But most importantly to me, he was just like fucking awesome to watch. Going one on one against Draymond Green and cut basically by the end of this game, every ounce of fat out of like this. The settling for a jumper part of his game and was just trying to get to the rim over and over and over. And it's like, look, if you're not going to, if you're not going to really lay out the defense and break it down on a conceptual level, at least be aggressive, at least bring intensity, at least be going downhill versus settling for things, which is usually where other offenses kind of go astray. And so I think you have to give Randall a ton of credit for his all around game here. But also just the way he was able to bully through one of the best defenders in the world and was a huge part of ultimately, although he didn't draw Draymond's sixth foul, getting Draymond kicked out of this game was six.
- [08:45]
Woz
You know, I feel like pretty much all NBA players have a context for why they play, how they play. You know, there's LeBron and KD, like where, like whatever you put them on Mars, they're going to be hall of Famers, all NBA kind of players. But the vast majority, 90% of NBA players are a product of the context in which they are placed. You know, whether that's where they're drafted, what kind of pieces the, the GM puts around them once you establish that they're a star, et cetera. And Julius Randle had a piss poor playoff reputation before this because he was the Knicks number one option in those playoffs. And in Minnesota, he's not that he's not being tasked with being the be all and end all of a team's half Court offense where every now and again he gets a grenade and he's dribble, dribble, dribble, step back three and clanking it off the backboard. Now he's able to attack in the ways that are most optimal for his given skill set, which isn't like playing around on the perimeter. It's like attacking guys.
- [09:53]
Rob Mahoney
It's straight up pulverizing dudes. It's left shoulder straight into your body, straight up.
- [09:58]
Woz
Jerome Bettis out there on the court and like we said, over and over again because he continues to do it, getting rid of the ball as soon as he draws help, spraying out to open shooters like, you know, it matters that now that he's. He's not the New York Knicks number one option and he gets to be the sort of Batman, excuse me, the Robin to Anthony Edwards Batman. He's just a completely transformed player by that.
- [10:25]
Rob Mahoney
I don't think we can do that. This is now too many Batman and Robins.
- [10:29]
Woz
Oh, is that exclusive to the Golden State War?
- [10:32]
Justin Varier
Well, who's the Alfred then? Is that Conley? Hey.
- [10:37]
Rob Mahoney
Well, no, I will say, first of all, I don't appreciate it.
- [10:42]
Justin Varier
Came up big late though. I have to give Rob credit. I don't know why, but I always associate you with my colleagues.
- [10:46]
Rob Mahoney
I'll take it.
- [10:47]
Justin Varier
He had the. He locked down Jonathan Kaminga on that crucial possession late in order to allow Ant to come and swipe down. Then they get the run out and then they kind of ice it there. But like Conley showed up defensively really well. I do think Randall and what you're talking about was. Might be a good entree into the Kaminga part of this because there are kind of parallels happening there. At the very least that the fact that Steph wasn't out there and Steph is so often the punctuation on a lot of what the warriors want to do because Jimmy wants to play the orchestra, right? And Draymond in his own special way off the ball is kind of doing the same thing. They're seeing the bigger picture. They're trying to get other guys involved in order to ultimately score the points. And I do feel like Kaminga slotted into place a little more easily than he ever had before. And on the one hand, Kaminga not a perfect player. I don't want to just absolve him of all of his sins. There are a couple of boneheaded mistakes in this game and throughout the playoffs. There been a ton of them, Rob. But I do feel like the fact that he was more featured did optimize the few things he does well because when the defense is tilted and he has the athletic advantage, like he can score on that. And he had 30 today. And so I guess I'm giving him more credit because I'm seeing his plight a little bit differently today.
- [11:58]
Rob Mahoney
I do see his played a little bit differently. I, I struggle with Kaminga because he is good at exactly this, which is, if you want to make it the Jonathan Kuminga show, he can do some of that stuff. And there, look, there are times in this game where I have no idea what he's doing, but clearly he has some sense of it and he's doing things that no other warriors role player can. Like, if he does not do this, Brandon Pajemski is not going to do it. Kavon Looney is not going to do it. Buddy Heald's not going to do it. Like, they needed this sort of performance from him. It's. It's really their only means of staying alive until Steph gets back is to get this from somebody. So the fact that he's able to step up and do it is important. I think that's almost a separate conversation between who is Jonathan Kuminga from a Golden State team building perspective. Like, his future is often a separate bucket right now. It's like, how do you get past today? How do you survive this week? How do you get past this Steph absence? And he's critical in that. I just don't know that he's critical in anything else that's happening with the Warriors.
- [12:54]
Woz
Yeah, it's crazy because there were moments where I'm like, oh, this is the theory of Jonathan Kaminga actually coming to fruition in this game. Like, this is cool. And then there's other mom. I'm like, God, this guy kind of sucks. It's kind of crazy that these happen within the same game. Right? Like, he can't even just produce like a consistently good game. He's in. Is he in his fourth year or his third year?
- [13:19]
Justin Varier
I believe he's in his fourth.
- [13:21]
Woz
Yeah, this is his fourth year. He can't put like, you know, sometimes with young guys, they can't do it game to game. Kaminga stringing together quarters to quarter of like good consistent play and it's just like, man, it's so frustrating because when the, when, when he's going in a, you know, in a more positive direction, it's so obvious how this guy could help a real team win basketball games with his athleticism and his motor and, and all of that stuff. But then like some of his decision making just leaves a lot to be desired.
- [13:53]
Rob Mahoney
You can see some of those ebbs and flows though. Like his athleticism is what makes him playable in this series and what makes him a good counter in some ways to Minnesota. It's also what makes Moses Moody just look completely overwhelmed out there. This is just not a Moses Moody series. And I think, you know, Kerr in Game two cast this really wide net with his rotation like we were getting Kevin Knox rotation.
- [14:13]
Woz
It was a crazy wide net.
- [14:15]
Rob Mahoney
It was a lot. There was a lot going on. By the end of this game, there's like seven guys playing and one of them is Jonathan Kuminga. Playing essential minutes, playing an essential role as a scorer. Like, there's just no way around praising something like that. This was a tremendous performance in a way that Golden State absolutely needed.
- [14:34]
Justin Varier
I think you kind of hit it there. I think this was a showcase of what Kaminga could be in a different situation almost. If anything, it underlined the fact that he's probably better off away from the warriors because when they lose their warriors ness, when Steph is out of there, all of a sudden Jonathan Kaminga is Featured. He's a 22 year old, still trying to figure out who he is as an NBA player. And constantly the story with him is who he thinks he is is coming right into collision with who the warriors have always been for the past decade or so. And so that's tough to navigate for a young player. And so I kind of like, I feel sympathy for him in a way that like I probably hadn't going into this game because he, he's just like a big athletic guy who just needs to play basketball and figure it out. He just can't do that on the Warriors.
- [15:17]
Woz
You think he's going to succeed in his, in his next. At his next stop? Justin Depends.
- [15:23]
Justin Varier
I think if he understands where his strengths lie and like lean into those and then layer stuff on top of that. But for instance, if he goes to the Wizards, is he going to try to beat Kobe Bryant or is he going to try to be Sean Kemp in the modern NBA and just like use his physicality to attack downhill? I doubt it, but there is a path there.
- [15:43]
Woz
What do you, what do you pay a guy who's in his fourth year, but it's still considered a project?
- [15:49]
Justin Varier
Probably 25 million because that's what everybody gets on the guy that's like this floor for a lot of these highly drafted. What's John Josh Getty going to get? Probably 20 to 30 million.
- [15:59]
Rob Mahoney
Well, we ask you, you're his agent. It was up to me.
- [16:02]
Justin Varier
He would be making as much as possible. But yeah, no, I think Kaminga played well, but we also have to give it up to Jimmy, who just like stepped up, just completely becomes a different person in the playoffs. It's just. It's happened so often now, I'm almost numb to it. But, God, Rob, this is just like he did it again.
- [16:20]
Rob Mahoney
Well, you also mentioned it, Justin too, in terms of wanting to play the orchestra. Like, this is not who Jimmy Butler wants to be. He wants to be playoff effective and play like playoff killer, but he doesn't want to have to force it this much. And I think you saw some of the limitations of that. Like, he doesn't actually want to take threes and he does. He can't really finish contested layups that well when he's not getting calls. And that puts him in like a pretty narrow zone of like, he has to gut out these very specific footwork, heavy technique, heavy mid range, heavy buckets. And he just did it over and over and over again. And he made like Nas Reed, for one. Looked kind of unplayable at points in this game. I thought basically every second that Rudy Gobert was off the floor, Jimmy was just feasting, getting basically whatever he wanted, getting the switches that he could dominate, getting to the rim at will and putting Rudy in changed a lot of things for a lot of different warriors who were trying to get inside. As you mentioned, this was not a team that was super interested in taking a lot of threes in the first half. Was so reliant on getting to the basket. And Jimmy is a huge part of that, like his playmaking, his creation. He knew what he had to do today. And you have to respect a guy who's willing to put his own personal vision of basketball aside to say, you know what? Today's just a game where I have to score 30. Like, it's just what has to happen.
- [17:33]
Justin Varier
There was a play where Jimmy was like backing into Edwards. I forgot. I think it was in the second quarter. And it was the type of spin, yes, the spin off of him, which, like, maybe no other human can do. Like, it's asking a lot of someone like Anthony Edwards, but I almost feel like it needs to be watching Jimmy get where he wants to with guile and just the awareness of where everybody else is and how every move he makes seems to be leveraging what he anticipates the defense to be doing. Where with Edwards is doing is a lot of Just reading, reacting. He just overpowering people with his athleticism. Was. Does that ring true to you at all?
- [18:10]
Woz
Yeah, for sure. Jimmy is just the ultimate balance and footwork king. I think Ant has great footwork when he's setting up his jump shot with the hand, like the combination of the handle and the footwork. When he's like setting up that step back or he's just like straight up dribbling by people, he's really good at that. But he doesn't have the footwork. When he gets closer to the cup, he's kind of just like taking off and like, I'm so athletic, I'm just gonna figure this thing out in midair. Um, whereas Jimmy is like, like you said, he is setting up his moves with a feint here, knowing that he's going in the other direction. It's like a completely, you know, it's almost like one guy's playing electric guitar and the other guy's playing the bass. Like, it's just a completely different register when it comes to, you know, an approach to paint finishing. And that stuff takes a lot of work, man. Like, people don't just become like these great paint scores overnight. Like, everybody goes through it. Steph Dame, all of these guys who, you know, made their names as like, all right, man, if you leave me out here on the perimeter, I'm gonna kill you. And the scouting report is like, make him put it on the deck because he's not going to be able to finish. Those guys overcame those limitations and became, I would say, like, good to damn near great finishers, you know, when they were at the peak of their powers. And, you know, Dame is really athletic. Guy. Not as athletic as Ant. I think Steph Curry is sneakily athletic, which is ridiculous, but he is. But Ant is just on another level of athletes, so you would think he's just working at, like, you know, his base floor is just higher. To become just some incredible finisher. And there's times where it feels like, you know, when he gets going downhill, that there's nothing anybody could do. And then other times where he just misses three straight layups and you're like, what the hell is going on?
- [19:58]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, a lot of it is Jimmy, if you'll pardon the, like, JV coach bullshit, I'm about to spew. Jimmy's like the playoff of two feet. King. Like, he always keeps his balance, always keeps his pivot. Ant, as I would do too, if I had a 40 inch vertical. I would play off one foot a lot. I'd be Leaping into the air and figuring it out later. So I can understand it.
- [20:17]
Justin Varier
What is your vert?
- [20:19]
Rob Mahoney
We don't have that down to that. Don't worry about that.
- [20:22]
Justin Varier
We jumping over paper here, barely clearing it.
- [20:26]
Rob Mahoney
You know, sometimes if you pull the paper, I might slip. So don't move it around too much.
- [20:31]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I don't want to denigrate too much of Ant just because he ended up with 36. And like you guys are mentioning, he did kind of give him the closing punch that they needed. But the difference is taking the game by the throat in the first half as opposed to the second half. The warriors are wounded. They're not even shooting threes, let alone making threes. They're over five in that first half. It's about, like, seizing the opportunity and leaving no doubt. And that is the difference between where needs to go and where he is right now. And so it's mildly disappointing just because coming off of that Lakers game, I was feeling the juju, you know, like the vibes. My sixth cents for predictions was just, like. Was ringing all over the place. I was like, the Wolves might have a path to the NBA Finals here. And, like, the path we should mention is a little bit easier than what the Thunder dealing with right now with the Nuggets. We'll get to that a little bit later. But it just also feels like things are clicking into place with the Wolves. They have everything you would want. They have the. The lineup, versatility where they can go big and small. They have the shooters. They have the guard reels in place. With Randall now and Conley, unfortunately, like, things just like the Bells, it's just never all the way there. And I think Ant deserves some of the blame for that just because, like, he is the guy who is going to. When things aren't as clean and crisp as they need to be, he's the one that should be the stopping point and be like, nah, we're doing it this way and we're just going to end this in five.
- [21:45]
Woz
After watching today, I don't know if you guys got the same feeling as me, but I'm like, man, if you add in the domination that Steph was enjoying, you know, 13 minutes into game one and watching these jokers, like, almost, you know, trick this game off, I'm like, golden State would have beat these guys. Golden State would have been going to the freaking conference finals if Steph didn't get hurt in this series. I don't know if you guys felt that. That's what I felt like watching this.
- [22:13]
Rob Mahoney
Thing Today, for the record, they still might.
- [22:18]
Woz
This is where I'm at.
- [22:19]
Rob Mahoney
Like, like, it seems fully viable that Golden State could steal this series. It also seems fully viable, Justin, that the Wolves could end up in the NBA Finals. Like, I'm not ruling either outcome out. And I think this is the ant is that we're offering all this, like, I would say constructive criticism, right? Like, these are the gaps between him and the absolute peak, top three kinds of players in the world, right? Like, that's. That's the. The stratosphere he's trying to reach and I think could reach. And for minutes at a time, for quarters at a time, he does it. The question is always going to be, can he do it consistently, can he do it against the best playoff defenses and Golden State is one of, if not the best playoff defense? And can you do it as the matchups are changing and evolving right under your feet, as you're going from series to series, as you're having to, like, rewrite your patterns and your recognition in real. How do you respond to all that stuff? And he's learning how to do it, and it's messy and sometimes it's frustrating to watch, sometimes there's nothing like it. And it's absolutely like incandescent basketball. And so we have enough of that Anthony Edwards, that I'm. I'm not ruling anything out for this Wolves team.
- [23:18]
Justin Varier
It's a real nice parallel, though, to the other series in the west because it is two teams struggling to meet the moment when we expected that moment to be right now, versus two teams that have just like the championship medal and all of the muscle memory for executing in high leverage situations, that they're just like, they're just winning games purely based off of that. They just know what they're doing and they're executing. And the other two teams are struggling mildly with that. Anything else with this one? Rob, did you like the Trace Jackson Davis ceremonial start for 10 minutes? I did.
- [23:49]
Rob Mahoney
Do we want to talk about his beard?
- [23:52]
Justin Varier
Yeah. He's going for something. I'll say that he's going for.
- [23:54]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, look, Trace Jackson Davis, I've always been a fan. I know he gets the yip sometimes. I know he's not the stoutest defensive presence. I understand why. Ultimately, he gets played out of a game like this. I still like the skill set and I like the fact that he vanished from the rotation for like, three months, came back with the beard is evil. Trace Jackson Davis, now it is at least making some kind of mark on this series. I thought he Earned a look based on how he played in game two. It's just you really get a sense of why Golden State has to scrap through as many minutes as they do just to find any kind of scoring at all. Like some of these lineups, especially the ones where Jimmy is off the floor and they'll have Draymond, Draymond and Gary Payton on the floor together. And it's like there's just no room to do anything.
- [24:37]
Woz
And it is another thing, like when they're. When the end result of a play is a Gary Payton part two corner.
- [24:45]
Justin Varier
Three.
- [24:46]
Woz
It's just like, it just feels weird when that's the end point of a play. Right? Like, for whatever reason, when it's Steph doing it after he draws three, it feels like the right thing to do. But like, I don't know, under like these circumstances, even though, like, logically you're like, these are kind of the best looks these guys can generate, it just feels so much nastier, like when Steph's not like, involved in generating those shots for them. Man.
- [25:12]
Rob Mahoney
I just want to say I think we need to adopt part two for all the seconds and juniors going forward.
- [25:18]
Justin Varier
Gary Payton endgame, like, he has the.
- [25:22]
Woz
Two roman numerals on it. That's why I am part two. It's the sequel.
- [25:28]
Justin Varier
Yeah. It just feels like with Steph out, Kerr is feeling himself and being able to explore the wonders of. Of his depth chart.
- [25:36]
Woz
This is what he's dying to do. He's so happy he gets to do this.
- [25:40]
Justin Varier
I. I can't think of a single other team that just. Yo yos guys around like that. I feel like a lot of these guys should be calling Jason Tatum just to like, just commiserate because they now would have liked to. FanDuel's turning your bets into bigger wins with a parlay profit boost. That's right. Build a same game parlay or parlay and you can boost your winnings by 30% with a profit boost. You pick the team's players, stats, all of it. FanDuel just adds a little fuel to the fire. We're looking at Sunday slate in the NBA playoffs. I'm looking specifically at this Cavs Pacers line. Cavs minus five. I'm a little worried because the Cavs played so well in that game three. Just blew the Pacers off the court in that one. That like, I don't know if everything's going to go perfectly for them, but if they have their full team, I like what they did defensively. Also like the offensive punch. And so if they're playing in the half court more, they have the ability to leverage their defense. And so just give me the Cavs -5 even if it is an indie. Halliburton's dad isn't going to be there so maybe that swings things in the Cavs direction. So give me Cavs -5 on Sunday in game four. And whether you're betting three pointers, home runs, goals or birdies, FanDuel's got markets across every sport and every game. And the best part, when you win, you'll get paid instantly. So go check it out FanDuels where your parlay gets paid even bigger. Head to FanDuel.com Ringer MBA to get started. FanDuel America's number one sports book book must be 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms@sportsbook.fanduel.com gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com Speaking of Jason Tatum, let's get, let's get to the Tatum Tim's game here because that was the other one on the docket. Some of the most hype I've seen for a game in a very long time. We heard about the ticket prices all getting their celebrity role was so filled out we couldn't even get like a former Sopranos person there. No Bobby Bacalot. I didn't even see Falco though. She must have been out of town. But Chalamet level and I was about.
- [28:01]
Rob Mahoney
To say shout out to group chat listener Timothy Chalamet. You know he's really showing up for us.
- [28:06]
Justin Varier
That's right. But I the Celtics also showed up in this game finally and kind of kind of left no doubt was seemed like it was easier than it had been before.
- [28:17]
Woz
Yeah, I mean they played like the team again. I thought they should have played like this in game two, but they played like their season was on the line. The New York Knicks offense has not been good this entire series and game three was no exception to that. And we could get to that at some point. But I thought the defense, they were super locked in and offensively it's like, bro, they took 19. This game was over by halftime. They took 19 threes at halftime. That's fine. Nobody's telling you to never shoot threes again. But when you take 60 in a game, it's kind of ridiculous against a team that you're obviously better than. Obviously have a lot of size advantages against, like they were just more well balanced in their diet. And the other thing that I thought about too is I think that in the media or as fans, like, we like to build up these narratives and like, you know, Jason Tatum faced adversity and he responded. And you know, we, we like to think that a lot of these responses are like LeBron Game 6 against the Boston Celtics in 2012, when this reality is just this 22, 24 points, like mediocre efficiency, but the team dominating. Cause that's the nature of this team. This team doesn't win because Jayson Tatum drops 40. Like they're just way more well balanced team than that. Like it was never going to be on Jayson Tatum to be some insane like drop 40, triple double blah, blah, blah. Like basically like LeBron in Cleveland. Right. Like, that was never going to be how the Celtics would dominate this series or win. Win this game. But it's just funny that we could build ourselves up into thinking that that's what this game was leading to. And ultimately it was like, it was a nice Jayson Tatum performance, not bad, but it wasn' like we're never, we're not going to be telling our grandkids, like putting them on our lap. And like kid Tatum in 25 against the Knicks at the Garden. Kid.
- [30:16]
Justin Varier
They were Tim's. Yeah, 22, 9 and 7. It was fine.
- [30:21]
Rob Mahoney
That's the thing that he's very rarely, if ever bad. Like, Jason Tatum has very few bad games. He's always quite good to sometimes very good to sometimes great. They don't always need great. And in this case, it's more like, you know, ultimately they've got five different guys with 15 points. That's why the Celtics win. The defense is, as you said, was smothering and particularly smothering in a way where, you know, Jalen Brunson got cooking in the second half a little bit. Those were like, he had a hard night of shot creation. Like hard night generating room to do anything. And OG and Mikhail combined just like did not have any offense going. And that, that's where you see the discrepancy here is like the Celtics can get by with a fine Jason Tatum game because they have this diversity of opportunity and they only have that diversity of the. Of opportun. If they're not settling for as many threes. It's to me, it's less about the number and honestly, even less about the end point. It's less about the three. Versus the two than it is. Like, what is the balance of your offense? Right? And in this game, you got Jalen Brown driving like hell coming coming into the first half, and I thought was such a dedicated attacker of the basket in a way that's really important. You had more cutting. You had free throws in the first half as a result of those things. You had more fast break points than you did in game two. You even had like, you know, they would have Tatum with Holiday screening for him as the basic, like the. Like a fake big rolling into the short roll, spraying out passes like, guess what? That's real diversity. That's actual offense. And that's the fucking ballgame. Like, if they do that stuff, they win. And if they don't, then they're going to give the Knicks a chance in every game, whether it's to come back or otherwise.
- [31:51]
Woz
It's the type of DEI I could get behind. Rob.
- [31:57]
Justin Varier
Well, I'll try to pick it up from there. I definitely think that the Celtics showed up for this one right from the jump. The defense was on level also. It felt like Missoula was ready to cut the shit, including his rotation. Like, they were virtually down to seven. Plus, where the Cornet minutes as the eighth person was kind of just like. I think he was like 10 or so there. It was like, it was really everything you can get out of Porzingis. Plus Peyton Pritchard, who was on another level in this game.
- [32:25]
Rob Mahoney
Richard was great on the Cornet Porzingis front. I'm just at the point where I'm not so convinced those shouldn't just all be Luke Cornet minutes. I mean, like, KP has not looked good, and he had moments of rim protection and shot blocking that ultimately paid off down the stretch. Like, I understand why he's out there. He's a different kind of threat, and you need him down the line in a way that you're not going to rely on Luke Cornett. But just so we're all clear about what's happening, like, today, Luke Cornett is playing more impactful minutes today than Chris Epsorzingis is. And if this were a different kind of series, and maybe it will be that kind of series, maybe that will become an actual tension point. I'm just, like, looking at those minutes, and I'm looking at KP settling for shots, and I'm looking at him look like looking lost, navigating the floor, and I'm just like, I don't know what he's bringing to this team on this run. I just don't know what's wrong yet.
- [33:14]
Justin Varier
Does. Does he have like Las Plagas or something like that?
- [33:19]
Woz
And they said it was three months ago. Wasn't it like March or something that the virus actually happened? Who knows, man? Like, I've seen Shams try to like, report on it, but he didn't have anything. He was just like, yeah, it's just he's been dealing with it for a few months and they don't know what to do. They're trying everything they can.
- [33:35]
Justin Varier
All right, just begging for a last of us joke here. God damn. You know, I can't say quadriceps, cordyceps. God damn it. Cordyceps.
- [33:46]
Rob Mahoney
You're saying like some kind of fungus is operating KP's limbs and just running him around out there.
- [33:51]
Woz
I mean, but at the same time, they won. They won a championship basically without him last year.
- [33:56]
Rob Mahoney
Well, the bulk of the run he was a part of, it was just at the end, they had to get over the final hump without him. And they can, they can do that.
- [34:03]
Justin Varier
Well, also coming off the bench, there was Pritchard, who should talk about. I had him in my notes last game and we didn't get around to it just because we were doing too much schadenfreude. Unfortunately for, for the Celtics, he kind of like, he had a couple shots late that I thought they need. And you kind of carried over that effect into this game where he almost had like a Brunson effect where he's just a good shot maker and he's so good at breaking from what they have in order to get there. It just seemed like they needed someone like him, like just a classic six man type to break free from. From the beautiful ball movement and getting into the three point mess in order to make a difference there.
- [34:43]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, God. Was.
- [34:44]
Woz
As long as he's taking spot ups, I'm good with it. Like, I don't need him doing the Jason Tatum or Jalen Brown step backs, but, like, if he's at the end of some crisp ball movement, man, like, he's one of the guys that I'm like, as soon as you catch it, you should be firing it. And he's gotten so much better off the dribble, attacking closeouts, finishing in the paint. He didn't have any of that stuff, you know, like two years ago even. He's just like so improved with the actual ball in his hands, like going downhill. That just rounded out his game so, so nicely, man. So, yeah, I'm not surprised that he made some big shots Today, like, he is just a money shooter when, you know, teams are panicking in rotation. But yeah, he was a big part of them blowing this thing wide open today.
- [35:36]
Rob Mahoney
I thought there was also just like a material difference in his mindset where in the first two games he was weirdly passive. For Peyton Pritchard, when that's your role is to come in and be a gunner, to come in to attack gaps. And he would have opportunities not necessarily to take quick shots, but to like have a driving lane where you could either pull up for a two or go all the way to the rim potentially, that he just like passed up and would veer out to reset the offense with like 8 seconds left on the shot clock. It's like, what. What good is that doing anybody? Him seizing those opportunities I thought was really important. Like, they need the balance that he's bringing to their offense. Unfortunately, he's probably like the biggest target that Jalen Brunson has on the floor. And you can see the sort of like relief in Brunson's execution and shot making when he has Pritchard on him. It's just a totally different thing than anybody else. So there's some tradeoff, but Boston needs him to score that way. They just need him to push because ultimately, like, they need that ingredient to their offense to bring it to balance.
- [36:28]
Justin Varier
My Portland brother, is he really wanted. Yeah, I mean, he's from Portland.
- [36:33]
Woz
From Portland, went to Oregon.
- [36:37]
Justin Varier
That's right.
- [36:38]
Woz
Duck. Yeah.
- [36:39]
Justin Varier
Felt like I was going to go forage some Swiss chard and just like spin around my head like a helicopter.
- [36:44]
Rob Mahoney
Have you done much foraging?
- [36:47]
Justin Varier
No, but people love doing it with mushrooms. I'm just out here just trying to grow Brussels sprouts. Man, they're growing. I just need them to keep going.
- [36:56]
Woz
What else are you growing back there?
- [36:58]
Justin Varier
Do you want to get into this? Because I can go.
- [37:00]
Woz
Yes.
- [37:01]
Justin Varier
So we started with Brussels sprouts and I was like, that's it. Because I just wanted to make sure I could do something easy. And for a while I was a little touch and go. But we're like arm's length at this point, so we're feeling good right now.
- [37:14]
Rob Mahoney
Are they easy? Because that's quite a dramatic looking plant, the Brussels sprout.
- [37:18]
Justin Varier
I think because they're more cold tolerant, you could start them earlier and they're a little bit less finicky with the changes in environment.
- [37:27]
Rob Mahoney
Okay. After a Jason Tatum type plant a little bit.
- [37:32]
Justin Varier
That's right. You can build an offense around it. And I have because I've expanded Out to a couple tomatoes. We got some peppers. And now this weekend, a couple days ago, we also added some corn. We got into some like, leafy greens. I got a taste of success and I just kind of rolled with it. Yeah. And my neighbor.
- [37:52]
Woz
You're a corn Husker.
- [37:53]
Justin Varier
I'm a corn guy. Yeah. But only two, so I can't really do a full on maze. But maybe next year, you know, the whole backyard might be just all in the. On a design.
- [38:03]
Rob Mahoney
Wait, you're growing two individual ears of corn?
- [38:07]
Justin Varier
Well, two stalks, yeah.
- [38:08]
Rob Mahoney
Fast. Okay. I mean, I guess we're gonna have to keep posted on the results.
- [38:11]
Woz
I literally thought he was gonna say he got like the basil plant from the supermarket and planted it, but this guy's like, got an entire farm back there.
- [38:21]
Justin Varier
I'm at the nursery multiple times a week. In fact, J. Kyle Mann called me and I was going there and I was like, dude, this is what I do in my free time just to get away from it. All hands are in the dirt, guys.
- [38:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, Farmer Justin just crushing it.
- [38:36]
Justin Varier
Need some sprouts in the Portland area. I'm your guy. Anyway, back to the basketball game. Well, Rob, you kind of called it before the game. You were like, oh, I can't wait for Joe Missoula to write this off as just like variants with three pointers. He actually shied away from that. I was surprised he didn't take the bait. He actually was like, no, actually it was more about live ball turnovers and finishing quarters. That's all we talked about for the last 72 hours. You're surprised.
- [39:00]
Rob Mahoney
I respect that. I mean, I respect him not taking that particular bait. Cause I would say, like, ultimately you watch this game, this is Boston winning their way. There's no doubt about it. I just think think that this game better embodied what it means to play their way than Games 1 and 2 did, which were at times like a caricature of the Celtics actual style. And Joe Missoula, for better or worse, has a little bit of like Mike Budenholzer to him. He is not a radically transformative, adaptive, mid, like mid series type of coach. He's much more of a. The type who has a very specific idea of what he thinks smart basketball is and he believes in it and he coaches to it and he'll tailor strategies to it. And of course, I'm not saying he doesn't make any moves or adjustments at all, but he's not going to be warded off by some bad shooting nights. He's going to fine tune he's going to bring the offense into a healthier place by adjusting here and there, trimming out some bits and pieces, some, some bibs and bops. But like, ultimately, like, this is who they are. They're going to be shooting threes, they're going to be gunning for this kind of offense. They just need the other stuff, too.
- [40:00]
Woz
Can I say something about the Knicks offense? Man, we must, I hope one day they realize that they should run stuff for Carl Towns, your $60 million player. Everything he does on offense is self generated. They're not running any sets specifically to set up Carl Towns at a spot he really likes or to get Carl Towns a mismatch or to like get Carl Towns on the move or like, like they don't do anything for him. It's just like, here's the ball, Carl. Figure it out. Against one of the best defenses in the league by yourself. Like, it's really frustrating to watch. I get it. Defenses have decided, especially the Celtics, they're like, you know what, we're just going to switch out Horford onto Jalen Brunson and live with the results. So it mutes the impact of the pick and pop. But that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to get your dynamic offensive weapon involved. And they do none of it, dude, like, like nothing. And it's really frustrating to watch.
- [41:02]
Rob Mahoney
Very occasionally they'll do like a cross screen in the post to say, that's about as.
- [41:06]
Woz
As.
- [41:07]
Rob Mahoney
That's about as complex as it gets. And it's like, even that's not bad. You know, even that's the first play.
- [41:12]
Woz
We put in in CYO basketball in seventh grade, by the way.
- [41:15]
Rob Mahoney
Pretty straightforward. And for someone like Carl Town, sometimes is enough to get him a second of advantage. You know, a nice matchup, a turnaround bucket, whatever it is. But you're right, like there's, there's always so much low hanging fruit with the Knicks where it's like, why don't you do this, why don't you do that? Whether it's pick and roll, whether it's setting up Towns, whether it's like feeding into anything resembling preamble offense rather than just give it to someone, usually Jalen Brunson, and make them do something. You have more at your disposal than this.
- [41:43]
Justin Varier
Well, are we sure Carl is fully healthy? No, because he finally made a three for the first time since game five of the Pistons series. I believe he's taken eight since. Yeah, I think he had one and one in the first two games of the Series and then he took a bunch this year. This game is one for five. He also dodged a question when asked directly if he has a broken bone in his hand, which I thought was fairly curious.
- [42:09]
Rob Mahoney
Who could possibly relate? You know, me and Cat just on incredibly similar wavelengths this time of year, apparently.
- [42:16]
Justin Varier
Yeah, but. And you guys are both playing through that. You guys are both playoff titans.
- [42:20]
Rob Mahoney
We're fighting through it. Although, like isn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like the hand that I see him grabbing during the game is his left hand.
- [42:28]
Justin Varier
It could be, yeah. I don't know how much they're related, but it does feel like he is playing through something first.
- [42:33]
Rob Mahoney
He's definitely playing through something. I think the three point volume is interesting and it's not a coincidence that all of a sudden the Knicks like can't hit threes. Like you look at their team numbers and they tell putrid percentages in these games. Some of it's like their best three point shooter. Carl Anthony Towns is not taking them that often. Like this was the first game he actually even attempted really many threes at all in any one of these games. That's a hopefully positive development for the Knicks. I think some of that comes from him rightly and understandably trying to flex more inside. Like he's trying to play inside and play bigger and that's coming at the expense of some of the three point attempts. But they. Again, this is another area where the Knicks have to walk the line there. Like they have to have him on the perimeter, space the floor. Sometimes they have to actually be leveraging one of the best shooting bigs who's ever lived without. Well, you know, we reasonable minds, including me and Cat can disagree.
- [43:24]
Justin Varier
Yeah. That's where it almost feels like they need Towns to do both. And so if he's diverting his attention toward the post and trying to optimize them in that way, like who's picking up the slack from there? And that's where I start to point the finger at Bridges. Oftentimes not necessarily in this game, but OG and Anobi was a complete nothing. Nothing offensively. It's just like if those guys are going to be critical core four members that are making this amount of money, like there's only so much you can get away with without having to produce offense. It can't just be Brunson pivoting his way to foul line. It can't just be Cat.
- [43:55]
Woz
Got to be more than that.
- [43:56]
Justin Varier
And. And three point stuff. Yeah, yeah.
- [44:00]
Woz
Question, guys, what do you got for this series. I personally think the Celtics are going to win this in six games. Yeah, I think they're gonna win the rest of the way. They've been sufficiently smacked around and just excoriated in the press. You know, everybody's just been online, everybody. I think they're gonna win the next three. They are just so suited to guarding the Knicks, to scoring on the Knicks. Like, they are just so perfectly, like. Like, in terms of personnel wise, like, they're just Knicks killers, you know? And I don't. Nothing I've seen for the first three games has dissuaded me of that notion.
- [44:45]
Rob Mahoney
I think the Celtics should win. As we talked about last time, I also thought they should have won the first two games. So it's like, what can you do with that? I think they will win six. Six may be steep at this point. It may take them seven to get there just because, you know, like, look, the Knicks have some magic in them, clearly. Like, they have the ability to gut out some of these games. And Boston, although they came to this one with the requisite level of focus, does not always, at least in terms of, like, half to half and quarter to quarter, bring that level of focus. So who know, who knows what could happen? But I do expect the Celtics to survive. I just. I think they have ultimately too much. And you look up and down this Knicks roster, and you. You do see how slim the margin for error is here. Like, if OG and McHale aren't producing, they lose. Like, they just don't have it. There aren't enough guys coming off the bench who are going to give you points. We saw Mitchell Robinson again, like, the whole not great march to the line. Yeah, we have precious Achua minutes kind of with, with and in place of Mitchell Robinson at various points. So it's like they're just like, Tom Thibodeau is trying to plug holes in this rotation, but there's not a lot to work with beyond. Beyond that core group.
- [45:51]
Justin Varier
That's always a sign of, like, a wounded team when we're trying stuff that we haven't seen before. And you start seeing even the beat writers be like, we've only seen this for 17 minutes in the regular season, and all of a sudden it's a playoff combination they're trying out. And so I agree with you guys. I would predict that, like, the Celtics win probably in seven. The thing that you have to worry about is this team constantly, like, allows Porzingis to be basically the zone buster for a lot of what they're doing, and they rely on him to be that kind of stopgap in a way that they don't necessarily for White, White or Holiday, who typically get what they're going to get offensively in the flow of off of what of JB and Tatum and Porzingis do. And if he's hobbled, it just throws them off. And we've seen how much this team can spin out of control when just like one of its like five legs just like isn't quite right. And so I think they are going to drop one of these games. But you're right. Just like have we seen a good Knicks offensive performance at this point outside of like the final five minutes of crunch time when they just like make things happen, that's what they need.
- [46:49]
Rob Mahoney
So yeah, it's a fast. Yeah.
- [46:52]
Justin Varier
I should mention that I also have strawberries and raspberries going just enough.
- [46:56]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [46:57]
Justin Varier
Yeah.
- [46:58]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, I think you're going to need to produce on this video podcast proof of some of these gardening efforts at some point. You know, if anything comes to bear here during the playoffs, I think you.
- [47:07]
Justin Varier
Got to bring the goods a little YouTube short. Just walk through my garden. Please don't make Sponsored by Home Depot. Let's go.
- [47:17]
Woz
Winner gardening. The YouTube channel coming your way soon.
- [47:20]
Rob Mahoney
Splinter Channel.
- [47:22]
Justin Varier
There you go. All right, before we get out of here, we want to do a little bit of canvassing of the rest of the playoffs. I believe every series now is 2:1 in the second round. And so it's a good time to like reflect, take a bigger picture, look at where we are basically at the halfway point home until we get to the finals. And so we're going to look at our playoff MVP ballots at this point. All right. One through five, we all, all came to the table here. I kind of want to go first with my number one because I think I'm going to veer from where you guys are.
- [47:57]
Woz
Of course you are.
- [48:01]
Justin Varier
But I'm staying. I'm staying in the same city because I have Aaron Gordon.
- [48:06]
Rob Mahoney
Wow. As your playoff mvp.
- [48:08]
Justin Varier
As the MVP of the playoff thus far. As continues to anoint himself as the modern day Robert Ori. Yeah, just first of all, he's won two games in the playoffs. One with a miracle dunk, the other with the three against the Thunder. Then hits the game tying shot against the Thunder the other night.
- [48:30]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [48:31]
Justin Varier
And that's on top of just like all the other things that he's contributing here. One just like the, the perfect cutting off a Jokic, the physicality defensively that rounds out this team and Kind of makes them as special as they have been since he's been there. He is kind of like the unsung hero, but underneath Jokic's shadow, I also think, like, quietly has become one of the best three point shooters in the NBA.
- [48:54]
Rob Mahoney
It's really great.
- [48:55]
Woz
That shot last night to tie the game was a movement three pointer. This dude freaking ran off of a screen or got lost throughout the course of running, sprinting to the corner, catches and shoots it and catches it to tie the game and send it to overtime. That's insane. This guy couldn't shoot for shit in Orlando. He was horrible.
- [49:20]
Rob Mahoney
That's a career power forward who has turned himself into a hop shooter. I don't even know how the fuck you do that. Like, if you look at his footwork, genuinely insane for a player his size.
- [49:30]
Justin Varier
He's 50, 41, 91 in the playoffs, and he wasn't too far off from 50, 40, 90 in the regular season.
- [49:36]
Woz
Imagine 91% of his foot free throws. That's insane.
- [49:39]
Justin Varier
We have, we have Michael Porter Jr. Essentially from the three point arc, but one of the best offensive rebounders at his position in the league. It's just like the combination of brute force and, and now finesse that we all kind of like dreamed about when he was playing the three in Orlando. Like, it kind of is kind of happening here. And so I think that plus the. The execution in big moments. He's my number one.
- [50:01]
Rob Mahoney
Amazing. Hold on. Was.
- [50:02]
Woz
Go ahead.
- [50:03]
Rob Mahoney
We need Justin to explain.
- [50:05]
Woz
It's a ridiculous pick, but it's fine.
- [50:09]
Justin Varier
Last year, he wasn't necessarily the best player. He just like came up in the most moments.
- [50:14]
Woz
Also, he said Aaron Gordon was unsung. As if Rod Mahoney ain't been writing Aaron Gordon profiles like a king. Come on now. We've been singing this man's phrases for years.
- [50:25]
Justin Varier
Tell him I forgot to tab that in my RSS feed. I guess it's tough, but you guys don't have him.
- [50:36]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, Aaron Gordon's been amazing.
- [50:39]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I haven't on the ballot.
- [50:41]
Rob Mahoney
I don't have him on the ballot.
- [50:42]
Woz
No, he's not on my ballot.
- [50:43]
Rob Mahoney
For me, it's top down. Who are the best players in these playoffs.
- [50:47]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I just think, like, he's come up with the biggest moments.
- [50:52]
Rob Mahoney
Amazing of this playoffs.
- [50:53]
Justin Varier
And he's also been more consistent than, I assume the guy that you probably have a number one.
- [50:57]
Woz
Yeah, I think nobody. Honestly, why I like this discussion is nobody's been consistently dominant.
- [51:06]
Rob Mahoney
If we can vary this thing and leave our top Tier empty. I think number one should be vacant, to be totally honest with you. Like, no one has been consistently dominant enough to be the definitive mvp. But if we're going to pick somebody.
- [51:20]
Woz
Yeah, I'm picking Nicola Jokic for sure. And, like, my ballot goes. The way I looked at it is, like, who have I seen be the most impactful throughout the course of the playoffs so far? And so that's why it's Jokic Shay, Anthony Edwards, Steph Curry and Tyrese Halliburton.
- [51:45]
Rob Mahoney
Look at you. Look at you.
- [51:48]
Woz
I left Brunson off. Sorry. Brunson, I love you. You've been heroic in the fourth, but even in some of those games, games, you had horrific stats throughout the first three quarters.
- [51:56]
Rob Mahoney
Can you repeat your five for me?
- [51:58]
Woz
Was I Shea, Aunt Edwards, Steph and Tyrese Halliburton?
- [52:02]
Rob Mahoney
You know what's fascinating about this? And I want to hear your two through five as well. Justin. My number two is just, like, not on your list. And that's Jonathan Mitchell. Yeah. Unreal.
- [52:14]
Woz
He's been excellent.
- [52:16]
Rob Mahoney
Let's talk about Jokic for one second, though. Just because, I mean, coming off of one of the worst shooting playoff games maybe he's ever had, like, I've just never seen him miss that many. And those specific shots before, all that stuff is valid. You turn it over, I think eight times in that game while he was at it. Not a good Jokic game. Still one where the Nuggets won his 44 minutes and won the game basically in part because of everything he creates. I also think as far as this stuff goes, like, there is the. If we're talking playoff mvp, there's who has played the highest consistent level across all the games that they've played, which, if that's the criteria, maybe Giannis is the playoff MVP and he already went out. If. But some games matter more than others, and I'm going to be honest with you, 42, 22, and six from Jokic in game one while marching his team to a win against the best team in basketball. That game matters more than other games. And I'm not saying that the blowout that followed, it didn't come at a cost. I'm not saying his inefficiency in Game 3 didn't come at a cost. I'm just saying, like, that Game one was as impressive a performance as I think any player has played in this postseason.
- [53:20]
Woz
And to me, all the things that Murray's able to do on offense that everybody on the Nuggets are able to do is flowing through Jokic's gravity and presence. Like even when he's not scoring as efficiently as we've become accustomed to, he is the person the defense is keying in on. Like he's the number one key even when he's not getting the buckets on a regular basis. So to me he's still number one. And it's like, you know, OKC, everybody, the 96 Bulls, the future champions. According to my podcast co host. He's doing this against the best defense in the NBA and like man, it looks hard, it looks really difficult to try to manufacture offense against this damn defense. And he's doing it.
- [54:11]
Rob Mahoney
It.
- [54:12]
Justin Varier
Do the bonuses hit your guys bank accounts immediately after we finish the pods or does the direct deposit take a couple days? He's.
- [54:21]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know what to tell you, Nicole. Jokic is pretty good. Even in the games where he's not hitting a lot of shots. Like he still has a massive impact on the game.
- [54:28]
Justin Varier
I think he's been pretty awful the past two games.
- [54:32]
Woz
Probably you thought he was awful last night.
- [54:35]
Rob Mahoney
I mean miss a lot of shots for sure.
- [54:37]
Justin Varier
Where are we setting the bar? Like, yes, for the standard that he set. Five points, eight turnovers, like he missed virtually everything, especially as the game went along. He was also -36 in the game where they got absolutely God smacked in game two. He basically spiraled out. It almost seemed like he fouled out intentionally just because he could not take it to be on the court any longer. I think if you're going to make the case for Jokic is in the first round is that he was consistently just the most dominant guy in a series that they probably should have lost. The margins were constantly tilting and that's ultimately why I went with Gordon because he was the one that pushed them over the top. But if you want to give Jokic more credit for, for being the driving force of everything that they're doing, also being like a pretty impactful defender just by. By parking himself in the paint. Like their whole defensive approach against the Thunder, for instance, is like we're going to pack the paint and force you to either manipulate your way to the line, Shay or somebody else to beat them in the two games that they've lost. Like they haven't been able to hit shots so they haven't been able to beat them. So I have Jokic too, because I'm fair and balanced and I do ultimately appreciate Nikola Jokic. I just think Gordon has just had way more moments and I appreciate the moments.
- [55:44]
Rob Mahoney
Look, we will never be mad about shining A light on Aaron Gordon on this podcast, even if it's not been more impactful.
- [55:52]
Woz
I love the guy, but. And the other thing that I love about this Aaron Gordon pick is like, he's like, seems to be in a state of Zen. Like, if you go and watch, like, his post game interviews, after all of the crazy games he's having, he's just like. I don't even know, like, how to describe. He's just like, yeah, man, we just trying to make the right play. Like, we're just trying to take a possession at a time. And like, he is so even keel right and on task. It's just amazing. I mean, he's such a fun player, man.
- [56:23]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [56:24]
Justin Varier
Considering just, like, the family stuff that he's gone through of, like, the fact that he has found that, like, special place is remarkable. He's been unbelievable. He's like, he's the exact winning player that you would want around every superstar. And like, somehow he's gotten better at that since they won the finals. That's incredible.
- [56:40]
Rob Mahoney
I know. Really Just an insane run that he's been on. Like, we can't say enough about it.
- [56:44]
Justin Varier
Yeah. So my ballot one through five is Gordon. I have Jokic at two, I have Jalen Brunson at three. Just because the numbers are just fucking incredible. Including the clutch numbers, he actually has 41 total clutch points in these playoffs, and that's 20 more than second best, which is Gordon and Towns. So that's pretty nuts. Gordon also second on that list. Just to just to buoy his case a little bit more. Then I have Mitchell, and then I have Giannis, who, despite only winning one game, put forth one of the most monster fucking first rounds that I've seen in a very long time. He had virtually 13 free throws a game in that series. He did everything he could. Unfortunately, he had to play off of Ryan Rollins and Kyle Kuzma going 1 for 15 every game.
- [57:27]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it was needless to say, everything that happened in that series was not his fault. Giannis played a hell of a series. He's deserving of merit here. I think what hurts him is, like, he didn't have the chance to go into a second round where the level of competition is upped and to, like, prove something in the way that some other guys have. But to be honest, like, nobody's case is clean like Jokic, as we already talked about, like, he's had some bad games. Everyone that we'll talk about has demerits where they've had bad losses, they've had One or two kind of like real stinkers of their slate so far. Makes it really hard to make up like one definitive pick as like this is the guy. I think Jokic is the closest to that. So I have Jokic, Donovan Mitchell at 2. I still have after tonight. I have ant at 3. I think. I think games like tonight are enough in addition to his first round performance to kind of pull him up. But honestly, three and four, I have Ant and Jalen Brunson. They could be pretty interchangeable. I still have Shea at 5 even coming off of a. A pretty brutal crunch time execution for him in terms of the way, you know, the way that things went down and him settling for shots in the way that he did. Him being off balance, him trying to bait out contact and being unsuccessful down the stretch against Denver is tough to watch. Not his best basketball, has not covered himself in glory, but it's not like he hasn't been a productive scorer. It's not like he hasn't shown up in these playoffs in a way that very few players have. And so I think like you could go Jason Tatum there, like was. I was extremely tempted to put Steph in that spot. Who I think is. Has. Has been like as transformative on the warriors offense as any player in the league has been transformative on theirs even. I can't go as far as Halliburton, but I respect him.
- [59:00]
Justin Varier
It. Do you want to talk about that as like a circling back on.
- [59:04]
Woz
They're up two one. That's it. You got a reward to winning, you know, and he is just so like a lot of this stuff, you just have to be watching the sort of tenor of Indiana's offense to know that it's like. It's Halliburton, you know, like the. The stuff that's giving defenses a hard time in terms of. Of covering the amount of space these guys stretch you to, meaning 90ft, man. You have to be on it. You know what I mean? I think it's Halliburton that's doing it. It's tougher with the. His individual numbers aren't always going to look like that. But the overall quality of play of the Pacers, I'm not saying he's carrying them, but in terms of how they play, why teams have a hard time dealing with what they do is because of Tyrese Halliburton. So I wanted to, you know, up to one in a series that they were expected to lose. You know, I wanted to reward the guy. Winning matters. I'm a winner.
- [60:06]
Justin Varier
It has Taken Just a pretty impressive performance by the Cavaliers, particularly defensively, particularly with their front court where it's like Evan Mobley at the top of a zone and Jared Allen just like looming in the paint for them, like, in order to disrupt them. But this is my opinion about Halliburton. It really hasn't changed when he's doing well versus when he's doing. Doing poorly. It's just like he is an engine of a system and he does that particularly well when you need him to rise above that and to make things and break things off in the way that Ant, for instance, can do just with raw physicality. And just like playmaking, it's tough. Also, like, you know, the fact that he doesn't. He isn't like a particularly physical player, like, leaves him susceptible to more dings and dents. He did hurt his wrists in that game too. And so like, those are the things against Halibur. And he has overall had a very good playoff performance. I think, like the past few games, much like joke, it's just like haven't been the best for him. But much like I think what we're kind of outlining here is my ballot probably reflects recency bias a little bit more than your guys use, to the point where it's like, I don't have Shay, but he was incredible in the first round. Whereas, like, for instance, Giannis hasn't had the opportunity to be bad.
- [61:09]
Woz
I thought he was pretty good at game one, too.
- [61:11]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [61:12]
Woz
Even the game that they lost, I thought Shay was. Was damn good.
- [61:15]
Justin Varier
She was. Yep.
- [61:16]
Woz
Can we get some serious predictions from you guys?
- [61:19]
Rob Mahoney
Hold on. On the Tyrese Halliburton front, I want to say. I do. I hear what you're saying, Justin. I think overall you're right. He can't force the issue in a way that a guy like Ant can. It's just not his game. I think Halliburton has shown like real progress picking out mismatches and attacking them in late game situations in these playoffs. Like, guys like Jared Allen, like Brook Lopez, like, forces like took his ass off the dribble. Four games clinching bucket on Giannis. Like, that's a great example. Like, it's not all step back threes with him anymore and that, that's a kind of growth. So I think, yes, he's not at Ant levels yet, but I think he is showing some improvement.
- [61:54]
Justin Varier
Yeah, I don't want to. I don't really want to knock Halburn because he's been very good this postseason, really very good over the second half of the season as well. It's just like if we're drawing the line in the sand between the very best players versus that next wave, Halliburton consistently does it. Like, Steph isn't going to have a four point performance and like, that is a perhaps tough bar to set with someone. But that's where we are. We're in the second round of the playoffs.
- [62:16]
Rob Mahoney
We're talking MVPs. And I also, look, Woz is a winner. He's making case for winners. I'm a loser. I just think we have to make the case for Donovan Mitchell. 91 points over the last two games, and I think to me, more than any player in this postseason has embodied the sort of like, whatever it takes mentality that playoff basketball requires of, like, you don't have the luxury, like we were talking about with Jimmy earlier, of playing the way you want to play, of playing your style of, you know, Donovan Mitchell in most games has a great jump in some of these games. Hasn't been able to hit anything outside of like 10ft. And he just turns into a driving machine and gets bucket after bucket after bucket and a parade to the free throw line because of it, because he's like physically unstoppable in terms of preventing him from getting to the basket. And I think he's been sensational in that creative capacity. Whether it's, you know, with all their guys in the lineup, whether it's been these games in which, you know, Mobley is out, Garland is out and. Or Garland is back, but looking kind of like a shell of himself currently, like not fully operational yet. I think Donovan Mitchell's been exceptional in all of those capacities. And to this point, he and Brunson are tied for the most 30 point games in these playoffs. And it feels like it. It feels like Donovan Mitchell is putting up 30 every night.
- [63:25]
Justin Varier
Yeah, 48 and 43 over his past two. Just like a real visceral, like, stamp on the game the past two games in a way that you want from your best player. And like, honestly, now that the rest of the team is clicking into place, guys are coming back from injury, you're starting to see the Cavs look like themselves again in Mitchell. Mitchell in particular. We should probably, if we want to talk about forecasting, we should talk about that series. I'm starting to worry about the Pacers now. Like, I definitely think they have the upper hand. But if the Cavs are going to be fully operational and play like this, especially defensively, as I mentioned, with just the synergy Mobley and Allen are showing out there. It's like, that's like, that's another level. I can't imagine another team replicating that amount of just length and rim protection and just overall complications that they could throw out at an all offense.
- [64:07]
Woz
Kenny Atkinson putting Evan Mobley at the top of a 1, 2, 2 zone, or 3, 2 zone, whatever you want to call it.
- [64:15]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it was crazy.
- [64:15]
Woz
Is insane. It's so terrifying, bro. Like, these guys couldn't do anything while he was over there. And then, of course, they got Jared Allen back there, you know, basically gobbling anything up that gets to the paint. Like, I just thought that was just a brilliant plan to deploy. And obviously the kryptonite to the Pacers is making them play slower, making them play more methodically deliberate in the half court. That's not their strength. They want to get up fast shots. They want to get up quickly. And the Cavs forcing them to sort of do a knife fight in the mud was just brilliant on Kenny Atkinson's point. And Evan Mobley coming back and playing like a defensive player of the year was just huge in that game.
- [65:02]
Rob Mahoney
That's one thing I might expect to change. Like, if I had to guess what's going to what, like how you know the next game might differ from this one, it would be the Pacers reaction to that zone. Because I would say, if you look over the last, I don't know, 15 years of NBA basketball, Rick Carlisle teams are as, like, consistently good and creative against zone defenses as basically any team out there. Like, he has his teams usually quite prepared for this team stuff. For whatever reason, they were a bunch of deer in the headlights, a pack of deer, a herd of a herd of deer. It's got to be a herd, right?
- [65:39]
Justin Varier
Yeah, that's their G League team. The herd.
- [65:42]
Rob Mahoney
Well, the Bucks.
- [65:45]
Justin Varier
But. Yeah, the Bucks G League team is the herd.
- [65:47]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, 100%. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.
- [65:49]
Justin Varier
Okay.
- [65:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're on this.
- [65:51]
Woz
We're all.
- [65:51]
Rob Mahoney
We're on the same page. We're all. We're all deer here.
- [65:54]
Justin Varier
We're all deer hunters. Yeah, we're big buck hunters.
- [65:57]
Rob Mahoney
So I do think that Indiana will be ultimately better suited to attacking that zone. And you could see them find some ways to get around it a little bit, attacking more from the wings. But it is so smart stacking the top of the floor like that against Indiana because they do want to run everything from the top. They want high pick and roll. They want that handoff game. And if you're making Obi Toppin and Pascal Siakam attack from the wing as kind of the entry point to the offense. That's. It's really counterintuitive and runs counter to everything that the Pacers are about out.
- [66:25]
Justin Varier
Yeah, it even seemed like the Pacers as they went along in that game, the Cavs almost forced them out of that zone. And so maybe they even figured it out as it went along. But I just feel like they're tapping into the flexibility and versatility with Mobley in a way that you almost wonder, like, what else can they cook up with? Like, a couple of years ago, we were talking about two bigs, basically using that to sell out against rim protection in order to choose whether or not you're going to stop the three point corner or at the basket. And that's why we saw guys, guys like Robert Williams start to pop. The Cavs in particular did that as well. Now we're at the point where one of those centers is guarding the perimeter while the other one lurks in a traditional center spot. It's just like my mind is kind of warped at like, what we're able to do. It harkens back to the conversation we were having last pot about like, defenses becoming more sophisticated because the players are just so goddamn impressive physically and just like, what they're capable of. So, yeah, I would say Cavs probably in seven, but it can go. It can go anyway.
- [67:26]
Woz
The Cavs are the better team, I think. Like, like, clearly, so when they have their guys. So if these guys can stay reasonably healthy. I know we said Garland doesn't look like himself, but like, just having him out there and not forcing, you know, your bench guys to have to step up in that way is huge. So I think they're gonna ultimately pull that out. Obviously, I think the Celtics will do the same. I think the Thunder will come back to probably eek out this series, but this shit's gonna be hard, man. I told y' all this shit ain't gonna be easy for these kids. But it's right there for them to win. Like the Nugget. Like, Bruh, the amount of minutes these guys are playing, the insanely timely shots and like, like, Bruh, they are giving it everything in order to scratch out these victories. And so, you know, the young guys just gotta play more transition. Like stop playing at half court. Y. Y' all gotta get back to that game too. Forcing turnovers, playing in space. Cuz half court is not y' all strength. Even against the Nuggets defense that nobody had any respect for coming into the playoffs. And, like, the Thunder are just straight up struggling against these guys.
- [68:47]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [68:48]
Woz
In big spots, but I just feel like they just have so much more. And even when it is, like, not working, it's ultimately is like wide open jumpers for NBA players, man. I think they'll eventually get that done. Who else we got? Yeah, the Wolves. Like I said, I don't think Steph's coming back. The Wolves are winning that series.
- [69:10]
Rob Mahoney
I think the Thunder will win, too. Yeah, I agree with you on the Wolves. It's just hard to anticipate debate without Steph how they're going to find enough scoring at all over the course of this series. I think. And we already talked about the Celtics. I think the Cavs, Pacers are where I do think the early struggles are going to catch up to somebody. I think, like, I think the Cavs could have survived giving up one of those first two, but giving up both, I think is really going to come back to bite him. And I think so.
- [69:33]
Woz
You're picking the paces.
- [69:34]
Rob Mahoney
I'm flipping coming in. I was. I was on Team Cavs after. I mean, after, oh, two. I think this is one where I don't think these teams are that far apart.
- [69:43]
Justin Varier
Corn boys, stand up. Yeah.
- [69:47]
Rob Mahoney
Are you an honorary corn boy now?
- [69:49]
Justin Varier
Maybe. Maybe I could provide the luncheon, you know, for you guys, for your meetings. The Thunder, man, this fucking team is just. I have no faith that they're going to do that. Even though everything, like, logically is suggesting that they should win this series. The flip flop between struggling against a team without Jokic in order to like to get past them versus just blowing them out by historic margins is just like. The flip flopping is just, like, kind of racking my brain in a way that, like, I feel like I have CTE at this point. I would guess that they'll win the series because I feel like the Nuggets lose a limb virtually every game.
- [70:31]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [70:32]
Justin Varier
Porter. Porter's like, I should be out four to six weeks. It looks like Jokic is wearing two arm sleeves. And I don't think this is, like, a passion.
- [70:40]
Woz
People are saying this. He's got an elbow issue.
- [70:42]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah.
- [70:44]
Justin Varier
And so, like, they shouldn't win this series. But we were saying that against the Clippers and they still won, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Nuggets dig this out. But the Thunder, I guess I would predict them to win. Let's just say seven.
- [70:56]
Rob Mahoney
They did. They deserve some benefit of the doubt, like, even in this game. Yeah, they didn't have it down the stretch. I thought they squandered an opportunity to put that game away. J Dub was awesome. Like, they had enough guys who were having awesome individual games. I just thought at the end. And they. Not unlike the Celtics during some of their game one and two struggles, like, oversimplified. It was way too much. Strictly isolation. Maybe one pass away if you're lucky kind of offense. That's not who the Thunder always are. They can win that way, and they certainly do play that way sometimes, but they're at their best when they're more dynamic than that.
- [71:26]
Justin Varier
The piss your pants factor just off the charts with this team.
- [71:32]
Rob Mahoney
I still don't know what we're measuring.
- [71:35]
Justin Varier
Whether a team will piss their pants in a high leverage situation.
- [71:39]
Rob Mahoney
So it's not us pissing our pants. Pants watching them. It's them.
- [71:44]
Woz
Yes.
- [71:45]
Justin Varier
So if you go to Basketball Reference right now and you look up ppr, which is after working with the marketing arm of. Of the Ringer, we've decided that's what we'll. We'll narrow it down to ppr. You will find Alexander's ppr, Chet Holmgren's Nicholas.
- [72:03]
Rob Mahoney
Theirs are quite high relative.
- [72:05]
Justin Varier
Those are historic at this point. Whereas, like, a Jokic, like, we're in the negatives because they got to find.
- [72:11]
Woz
It in this series. They're a young team, but they got to find it. They got to pull it out. Like, there's no way they could look at this last game and think that it wasn't there for them to have. They didn't get their asses handed to them. Like, they just straight up got out. Executed by an older, more experienced squad. And, you know, unfortunately for them, this is baptism by fire. Man. Man, like, it's time.
- [72:35]
Justin Varier
All right. We should wrap it up. I've got a garden to attend to. Pour some fertilizer. Yeah, we'll be back Wednesday. Yeah, Wednesday. Thank you to Isaiah Blakeley. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you next time. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline MA or 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New York.